June 17, 2026 • 51 mins
Deborah Patz’s book, Film Production Management 101, has become one of the industry's most respected resources and is often described as the “essential roadmap to the business side of production.” The newly updated third edition covers everything from budgeting and scheduling to respectful workplaces and sustainable production practices. Deborah covers important producing skills in this podcast.
Deborah is also the author of “Write! Shoot! Edit!” for teens - both books published worldwide by MWP Productions. She has worked in the industry since the mid-80s, with a filmography that spans micro-budget to international co-productions, from family and children's programming to science fiction extravaganzas and feature films of various budget sizes with companies such as Disney, Lucasfilm, Alliance/Atlantis, Nelvana, MCA/Universal, and the IMAX space team. Currently she's working in business affairs at Telefilm Canada and teaches filmmaking skills based on her books. When not involved in books and films, she sails with her family in Pacific Northwest.
Join our new educational platform From the Heart THRIVE and get free classes on film funding: https://fromtheheartproductions.thrivecart.com/from-the-heart-thrive/
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SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Ever wonder who solves the countless problems
that can derail a filmproduction before they become
disasters?
Well, today's guest reveals howthis happens.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Whether you're making your first documentary or
producing your tenth feature,today's conversation will reveal
the production managementsecrets that can save your
project time, money, andunnecessary stress.
So glad you could join us on theArt of Film Funding podcast.
(01:48):
I'm Claire Papin, co-producerwith Carol Dean.
Today we have a very specialguest whose work has helped
thousands of filmmakersunderstand the business and
logistics behind successful filmand television productions.
Deborah Patts has spent decadesworking as a production manager,
(02:11):
production coordinator, andproduction executive on
award-winning productions forcompanies including Lucasfilms,
IMAX, Universal, BBC, CBC, andDisney.
Her book, Film ProductionManagement 101, has become one
(02:31):
of the industry's most respectedresources and is often described
as the essential roadmap to thebusiness side of production.
The newly updated third editioncovers everything from budgeting
and scheduling to respectfulworkplaces and sustainable
production practices.
(02:53):
Deborah's practical insights cansave you years of trial and
error.
And now I'd like to welcome thefounder of From the Heart
Productions, Carol Dean, whowill lead today's conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Thank you, Claire.
So, Deborah, welcome to the Artof Film Funding Podcast.
And congratulations on yourthird edition, just that is
incredible.
Your book has become requiredreading for many filmmakers, and
Claire and I are delighted tohave this opportunity to discuss
the lessons you've learnedthroughout your remarkable
(03:30):
career.
So let's start with whatinspired you to write Film
Production Management 101, andwhat gap did you see in the
industry that needed to befilled?
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
Well, thank you first of all very much for the
invitation.
I am delighted to be here.
Um, Film Production Management101.
It actually, the first time Iwrote the book was back in, or
actually was published in 1997.
So that means I was writing itin 96.
But uh in the mid-90s, Irecognized there was no book on
(04:04):
how to be a productioncoordinator.
And I wanted to move on fromcoordination into management.
So I wrote the book and uh gotit published by Michael Weesee
Productions, and that pushed itout around the world.
Then a number of years later, by2002, after I'd been um
production managing, it wasclear that production managers
(04:29):
needed to know what coordinatorsdid.
And also I had a lot of skillsnow as production management.
So I wrote a productionmanagement book and we put the
two of them together.
And that's actually the birth ofFilm Production Management 101.
That's why the book is so thick,it's like about 500 pages.
And then I've been basicallyupdating it, but I don't update
(04:51):
it too often.
This is only like the thirdedition, but the first one was
um we were still making movieson film and doing film finish.
And then it moved over todigital, and now we have moved
into uh definitely highlightingsustainable practices, and we
have a heightened awarenessabout the need for the
(05:11):
respectful workplace.
So that's a lot of the focus ofwhat this one, this edition is.
SPEAKER_01 (05:17):
Oh, that's really important to have that update.
Good for good for you forputting that in.
You described the book asserving both production managers
and production coordinators.
So can can you explain how theseroles differ and why is it
important for filmmakers tounderstand both perspectives?
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
Yeah, well, the coordinator is basically the
right hand of the productionmanager.
The coordinator is so tappedinto the logistics of
production, it's probablythey're probably the only person
who knows everybody at the rapparty.
They basically put into actionwhatever the production
decisions are.
The production manager, however,is actually making a lot of
(06:00):
those production decisions.
And they start with that back atthe budget, in that they're
allocating the production moneyto various categories to
determine which crew is going tobe hired, how big is the crew,
what equipment can be rented,what locations can be used, is
it gonna be studio shoot or alocation shoot, union, not
(06:20):
union?
So it is a monetary perspective,but they're still making those
decisions.
And if you make a promise or adecision in prep or on set in
any department, you're basicallyspending the production money.
So that's why the productionmanager has that perspective.
They know they have to know howto spend the budget, but also
(06:43):
make sure that the project comesin on time and on budget while
realizing the director's vision.
SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
Okay, so then what's the line producer doing?
Do you still have a lineproducer with the coordinator?
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Yeah, uh you can.
The larger the production, youyou have to start splitting out
into um splitting out the jobinto more people.
And a line producer is often uha very experienced production
manager who's moving intoproducing.
And they can be a line producerwho's also a PM on a project, or
(07:21):
there can be a line producer anda separate PM, just like you
could have a PM and an assistantPM, depending on what skills
people are bringing to theproject.
SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
Okay, that makes sense.
Okay.
One of the themes of the book istaking a project from prep
through post-production.
And um, you even covered theaudit process, which is
wonderful.
So, why do so many filmmakersunderestimate the importance of
planning for the end of theproduction while they're still
(07:52):
at the beginning?
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Well, that's probably because there's so much
to do to turn a script into afilm.
I mean, um, you don't reallylearn how to prep for an audit
in a film class.
It's next to impossible to teachanybody how to manage a
production budget in a filmclass because the equipment is
usually part of the program, soit's basically free.
(08:16):
The cast and crew arevolunteers, so they're basically
free.
So, how are you tracking thatmoney?
That leaves learning by doing.
So you make mistakes on oneproduction, you learn how to do
it better on the nextproduction, and that's comes
down to why I wrote the book.
So that you don't have to makemistakes in the first place.
You can just flip over to thething away.
(08:38):
Oh yeah, I got to get thisready.
So, my first coordinating job,for example, I built a four-page
checklist before I started basedon all my experiences in
production to date.
By the end of that production,it had already bloomed to 11
pages.
And that was the core of whatbecame the first book, which was
(09:00):
called Surviving Production.
Now the book, like I said, islike 500 pages.
It's not meant to be read inorder.
It's not meant to be read everychapter for every production.
The idea is that it grows withyou.
There's chapters on legalclearances, you might not have
them, uh, customs andimmigration, you might not be
(09:20):
moving people around, completionbond, all that sort of thing.
But the audit, the audit happensat the end of all of them.
And it it's not really surprisedthat it's so far away, and the
production manager is no longerworking on the project to
recognize that everything thatyou prep is in order to get to
(09:41):
that audit.
SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
All right.
And the audit uh means what?
Tell us.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Oh, the audit is uh done by an independent
accountant who looks at all theuh accounting documentation and
validates that you spent themoney where you said you spent
the money.
And the idea is that the moneyis spent in um actual production
(10:08):
costs, and you didn't just spendthe production money and go out
and buy yourself a car.
Right.
Um, you actually made the moviewith it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
So every expense has to have a line, uh number, an
account number, and be verifiedwith a piece of paper for every
expense that you have.
Wow.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
And that's why there's um uh code numbers all
the way through the budget,because that is actually
preparing for the audit when youare budgeting.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Right.
Every code number for everyitem.
So great.
So budgeting is oftenintimidating for new filmmakers.
So what are the biggestbudgeting mistakes that you see
with independent producers andhow can they avoid them?
Oh, that's such a good question.
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
And I could talk for ages about budgets, but um let
me approach the intimidationfactor and the budgeting
mistakes by dispelling somemyths.
The first myth about budgeting,when you're about to start
budgeting a project, is you willnever have enough time and money
(11:19):
to make your project.
So just relax.
You're never going to.
Um, I've worked on micro budgetfilms, I've worked on
multi-million dollar films whereI'm still telling people, I'm
sorry, I don't have enough moneyto pay you more and all that
stuff.
The bigger the budget, itusually is the bigger the
(11:41):
logistics.
And so there is just more thathas to be in the budget.
So at least you can relax withthat one.
Now, the budget includes bothtime and money.
So this is another thing toknow.
You're not alone.
The first AD is key in managingthe schedule, and the key and
the PM is key in managing thebudget.
(12:03):
So you're already working as ateam.
The director's gonna have input,the producer's gonna have input.
There's um, I've got onlineresources on my website,
debats.com, their companionlinks for the book.
And that will help you find ratesheets and stuff to help you
with budgeting.
So that's another nice thing toknow.
(12:25):
Um, another myth, you're notactually budgeting, in that
you're not saying how much isthis going to cost.
You're allocating funds thathave already been raised.
So it's a kind of reversebudgeting.
You raise a certain amount ofthe producer's going to raise a
certain amount of money to makea movie, and you need just have
to allocate the funds to thevarious categories in the
(12:47):
budget.
So it's it's not like a blankcheck.
You just have to sort of figureout where you're going to put
that.
But the trick, and this is whereyour experience will help.
And that's why it it's very hardto jump in as a production
manager.
You want to actually have someproduction experience getting
there.
Is that what are the productionchoices that have to be made to
(13:08):
realize the budget at thatbudget level to realize the
director's vision?
So those are the productiondecisions that the production
manager has to make.
So, for example, are there goingto be Vista shots, which are
expensive because you have toclose off a lot of space, or are
they going to be shooting itwith close-ups in front of a
(13:30):
hedge?
Well, that's not a lot of spaceto, you know, physical space to
use up.
So that'll actually be cheaper.
So when you think about it, theproduction manager needs to know
how to make a movie in order todo some of the budgeting.
Um and when you're do makewriting the budget, you're also
(13:52):
making a list of assumptions.
And so that's anything like howmany days is going to be the
shoot?
Are you using unions or not?
Is it a fall shoot?
But the script is for winter,which means you need snow
making.
So any of those productiondecisions you make as you're
doing the budget, you make alist of assumptions so that you
(14:12):
can explain what's going on.
And the final myth I'm gonna umit's not the final one, but the
third myth that I'm gonna dispelis draft one of the budget will
not be draft final.
Just like the script goesthrough script revisions, the
budget will go through budgetrevisions.
So you don't have to be perfectthe first time.
(14:34):
Um, but you did ask aboutmistakes, so I'm gonna give you
one mistake that's really worththinking about.
The biggest mistake I've seen isyou're not leaving enough money
for post.
Make sure that the post is wellbudgeted, make sure you save at
least 40% of contingency becauseyou're post, because if you
(14:56):
don't finish the film, there'sno film to sell in the market
afterward.
SPEAKER_01 (15:01):
Wow, that's so important.
You're right.
I've said I run into films thathave gotten into post, started,
run out of money, and are stillsitting there waiting to be
finished.
Yeah, it's really bad when youspend all that time on the film.
Well, tell me what percentage ofthe budget normally goes to the
(15:24):
producers.
I heard you could budget six toten percent.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Well, um, it depends.
It depends on what thepercentage is based on.
It depends on who's financingyour project, and it also
depends on what is yourdefinition of producer.
So six to ten percent is it ofthe whole budget or is it the
(15:51):
below the line costs?
Because the budget is dividedinto above the line, which is uh
the costs that were um assembledduring development of the
script, which is like storywrite, script, uh writer
development costs, producer,director, star.
Uh, and those things, thosecosts can vary dramatically.
(16:14):
On a big budget, they can beunusually high.
And on a micro budget, they canbe painfully low.
So since that range is so huge,you usually don't bother
including that in yourcalculation for what is the
percentage of the producer fee.
Um, below the line costs wouldbe is usually divided into two
(16:36):
sections, below the lineproduction, which is principal
photography, and below the lineposts.
And so those are considered likethe direct production costs.
And typically you would do apercentage of those costs
because they're a lot morepredictable.
There is another section at thebottom for like financing and
insurance and legal.
(16:57):
And again, depending on howyou're financing the project,
they can those costs can rangedramatically because they're not
actually about hiring the craft,hiring the crew, and hiring the
locations which are directcosts.
So often those also get left outof the calculation.
(17:17):
And then some financiers willhave restrictions on what the
producer's fees are.
So they might say that 20% of uhdirect costs, or 30% if it's a
low budget documentary.
Um and then finally, um, who isthe producer?
There are so many producertitles.
(17:39):
You mentioned line producer,there's also supervising
producers, executive producers,co-producers, and straight
producers.
Um, in some cases, financiersrequire they all end up sharing
the same producer fee.
And in some cases, it's just theshareholders of the company that
share that producer fee.
(17:59):
So, again, that's again where itgets tied into financiers.
So, not really the answer youwanted, because I could have
just said yes or no.
Um, I would say though, six toten percent of the overall
budget.
Well, if you have toover-generalize, it's not out of
line for the first draft of thisof the budget.
But as you start assembling umall the different parts, you
(18:23):
probably have to revise theproducer fee.
SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
Okay, but you do have an idea somewhere in there
to get started.
Exactly.
You really need that number toraise the funds.
So you should probably lean onthe higher side, higher
percentage.
If you can, yep.
Well, from what you said, um,the production manager has to
(18:46):
have a good amount of experiencefor you to turn your money and
film over to them.
They have to have made somefilms before, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
Uh, well, I mean, the somebody's got to manage for
the first time.
So production managers can comeup through a number of different
ways on production.
I came up through the productioncoordination route.
I've seen people come up throughproduction accounting, which of
course they'll be very strong inthe money side of things.
(19:18):
I've also seen really goodproduction managers come up
through location managementbecause again, you're dealing
with a lot of the logistics onset and locations and stuff.
So, and uh so it really varies.
So you don't actually have toknow everything when you're
doing it, but that's that'swhere my book was designed to be
(19:41):
open on the desk as you'reworking, so that if you need a
mentor to say, Oh my gosh, howdo I deal with X, you can just
flip to the chapter and go,okay, good, somebody's given me
some ideas.
And uh and and really, and I'veseen people do that.
I mean, that's the reason Iwrote it so that I could do it.
I would have it open, right?
(20:01):
I gave myself a checklist at thebeginning.
And uh and there is a checklistout there to count down through
to production to go, I havethree weeks before shooting.
Have you done this?
And uh so you don't have to knoweverything, but you'll you're
gonna learn on every production.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Yes, you will learn on every production, and you
need to know where to find theinformation you don't know.
That's what you mean.
That's true.
Okay.
Uh well, how do you decide whichproducer gets what job?
Because sometimes you see six ormore producers on films, and you
realize that each one must havea separate responsibility.
(20:47):
So who makes that decision?
SPEAKER_02 (20:50):
Yeah, there's so many producer titles.
Um I guess, in short, theproducer team, the producing
team has to get together anddecide among us amongst
themselves.
Just like a production managercan come up through several
paths, producers come up throughseveral paths.
Some of them will come upthrough production management,
some will come up through legal,some will come up through um
(21:12):
working on script and story,some of them through acting.
So there's no one route toproducing.
And if there is more than oneproducer, they're usually
working together because theyhave complementary skills.
So they will decide amongstthemselves what that is.
(21:32):
Now, the line producer wealready talked about is you
think very often the veryexperienced production manager,
very work, very much workingwith the logistics of the
production.
Executive producer or associateproducer, they can be credits
that are given out as acourtesy.
Um, so those people may not evenshow up on set.
(21:54):
Or they can be paid positionsand they're a very active part
of the producing team.
So it totally varies on everyproduction.
But the title that is just likestraight producer, no leading
qualifier, that is the mainproducer and the one who has to
make the final decision, mostresponsible.
And you can have more than oneof those, but try to reduce it
(22:19):
to one where possible.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
And that you can only have three producers if uh
they go up for an Academy Award.
That's all that's that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (22:28):
Yeah, they reduce that at the Academy Awards
because there's too many peopletaking the producer category.
I mean, if too many, it itstarts to devalue the position
if there's too many peoplesharing it and they're not
actually doing the work.
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
And I noticed on Spielberg's new film, there's
only he and one other person asthe producer.
There's only two names there.
The main yeah.
So um this has become this isvery important to know going in,
because we all think that thethis film we're working on has a
chance at an Academy Award.
(23:05):
So I think that solved first uhthe first question is who's
going on the stage?
SPEAKER_02 (23:11):
with whom that's right now we're getting into
chapter six hiring the crew uhand i was told by another uh
producer that she uh wouldalways uh call uh every referral
(23:32):
when she's looking to hiresomeone she would call who they
said for referral and then ifshe found two people who were
similar with experience andfeedback she would pick the one
that was uh easier to get alongwith on the set is that is
common honestly I don't know ifI've ever found two people who
(23:56):
are that similar but buttheoretically if I did I mean
yes definitely call referencesdefinitely call contacts on
previous productions so they maynot be references as listed on a
on a CV uh but if I see aproject a previous project I
(24:17):
could definitely call a previousuh previous production and also
find out more about this personbecause think about it film
productions they have to cometogether really quickly the team
has to work together veryintensely and it's for a very
short time if someone happens tobe problematic on that team you
(24:38):
might choose to keep them to theend of production because
there's no time to replace themand that's one of the reasons
you really need to callreferences.
On the other hand there is alsopersonality clashes that can
happen and so not in thereference may not be valid
(24:58):
because you might be able to getalong with them.
So you have to be mindful whenyou're actually doing that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Yeah yeah because you've got to have that crew
communicating with each otherand happy to work there
together.
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
Yeah because it's it's all about creating a team
right you have to have a teamthat works really well together.
And so you know the productionmanager and the producer will be
hiring keys who will in turntypically be hiring their teams.
So it is about building a teamthat's going to work together.
(25:36):
And so theoretically if you'rein that choice where there's two
of the same people you have toknow they're gonna work the if
you get a sense that they'regonna work together as a team
that will be great.
SPEAKER_01 (25:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
So usually when you hire a director of photography
he brings his crew absolutelyright and that's a I will tell a
story about a project I didwhere it was a short that I
managed to do an entire almostentirely upgrading crew.
I wanted to work on this film Iread the script from this writer
(26:12):
director and uh it was ratherexperimental but I could see how
it all took place in um a houseset and I was working at the
time on a project that had abeautiful house set.
And so I was the coordinator onthat show and I was managing the
short.
(26:32):
So I asked if I could use theset and they said well you'll
have to find one of the the keycrew to work on it.
Well I knew the gaffer wanted tobecome a DP so I offered the
gaffer a position as a DP wellthat set so many things in into
(26:53):
position because then when hefit into that position his
electric and grip team that wereworking with him for the last
two years all upgraded once onon the project and joined him
because they wanted to supporthim as a new DP and then um and
(27:14):
then I also got um well theequipment warehouse was very
happy to help support him aswell um and the camera team they
all upgraded one.
So the clapper loader became thefocus puller the trainee became
the clapper loader and then thesound team which of course there
(27:39):
was only two of them he saysokay you can't hire everybody
and not us.
I know we're not upgrading butwe're gonna join you too so I
was able to put this this shorttogether with a crew that had
basically been working togetherfor two years on this set.
So it was completely beautifulbut you know that doesn't happen
(28:01):
all the time but but it is thatwhole thing about how people
will work together in teams andthey will also upgrade together
in teams because once you startworking with people and you get
that sort of second languagegoing on set, you want to keep
it going on other productions.
SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
Yes that's brilliant well done now um you've worked
on productions of many sizes sowhat production management
principles remain the samewhether you're making a small
documentary or a major studioproject okay I'm gonna give you
(28:47):
two principles.
SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
The first one is every cast and crew member is
valuable sounds obvious but onthe bigger crews it's very hard
for each person to see theircontribution to the whole and so
it really helps if you can helpthem see it.
(29:12):
Because it's not just about thenumbers it's about the people
who are making the film and sothat is a really important
concept that you have to getacross because you know if
there's only 10 people on theproject everybody's doing so
much.
But if there's 150 people doingthe same amount of work as it
were everybody's doing a verysmall slice of that big
(29:34):
production the second principleI was going to I'm just going to
I would say is the productionmanager needs no needs to know
how to say no, which is oftenwhat they're known for but they
also have to know when to sayyes and that comes to spending
the production budget.
(29:56):
So the production manager needsto know where is the story in
the script and I mean thedirector's vision of the story.
So just as an example it's anexterior exterior of a building
the character's walking into thebuilding it's a separate
location it's a unit move can isthat scene completely necessary
(30:19):
or can you tell that story thesame way by the character
arriving into the room takingoff their coat and now you have
not done a location move soyou've actually saved a lot of
production time.
And I mean you can you can'tanswer that because part of it
is the director's vision.
Okay.
(30:41):
I will take I will give youanother example and that was
this was when I was doing IMAXuh IMAX 3D IMAX it was a space
city x outside the space city is3D animation and the set was a a
set and we needed to connect thetwo of them so we created a shot
(31:03):
that was supposedly um constantstarted full frame animation
went down into the space citywhere you would see the animated
background with with real peopleplugged into it so that they
look like they were walking andthen the camera keeps going down
(31:24):
into one of the buildings andyou're in this you're in the set
so you're you think you're inthe building and we've now
connected the animation to theset and you feel like you're in
space not like you're on astudio set.
But there were eight secondswhere we had an animated
background where we had to putactual people in we ended up
(31:45):
renting the Skydome in Torontoputting people walking around on
the green screen of the of theoutfield and plugging them in.
It was a really expensive shotbut it was the sell shot and
totally required for the storyof that movie.
So we knew we had to make thatso that's when you need to know
(32:06):
when to say yes.
Absolutely but this I think thisis really important to bring to
the attention uh when you see ashot that could be condensed
into from two shots to one uhsave money and time but who
takes this information to whomuh well that's where you're
(32:32):
having meetings with um producerand director and and that's
where that's where the PM oftengets noticed as the no person
because it's they're challengingideas of do we need this?
Can we combine that?
Right and that's where you getthat sense of oh they always say
(32:52):
no but also needs to know whento say yes.
Exactly so your book get goesinto a discussion on script
breakdowns and scheduling whichis so important and tell us how
much money and stress can a wellprepared schedule save during
(33:12):
production basically you'retalking about pre-production
work and that is so essentialtoday more than ever.
When we did green screen youwould have a green screen on the
set and CGI computer imagerywould be created for that
background while you wereshooting and during post it
(33:35):
would get inserted.
But today we now do things likevirtual production which was
made famous on the Mandalorianand what happens is that CGI
background imagery is added ontoa volume stage which is like a
huge wraparound TV screenbackground and that imagery is
(33:57):
there on the shoot day.
Well that tells you that you'renot building that while you're
shooting you're building that inprep in order to get to the
shoot day.
So that's putting a lot morepressure on prep work in order
to get to the shoot day insteadof saying oh yeah we'll add that
later in post.
(34:18):
So the ADs are using thebreakdowns to know what actually
has to show up on that shootday.
If the character reaches for aglass that glass better be there
and props will make sure it'sthere you end up reusing those
script breakdowns at least thecoordinator will end up reusing
it into the um shootingschedules and then reuse it
(34:41):
again onto the call sheet whenit gets to the call sheet it's
not really news for anybodybecause you've had so many
meetings about it and everybodyhas been working to get there.
But you end up re keep reusingit which is very useful.
But that concept of uh prep isreally important in that there
was a sign that this artdepartment put up once which I
(35:04):
just loved and it was calledthey would put it up on the
entrance to the art departmentand that was fast, good, cheap,
pick two because you won't getall three and prep is about
doing everything cheap and andgood because you have time in
prep you haven't actuallystarted shooting.
(35:24):
As soon as you start shootingthere's no time left you've
gotten an X number of days inorder to capture the imagery.
So shoot will be fast.
And so if you can only pick oneof the other two it's either
going to be good or it's goingto be cheap.
Well you're not gonna choose Idon't want it to be good.
So when you're shooting it willbe fast and it will be expensive
(35:48):
in order to make it happen.
So the only where you can savemoney is in prep when you
actually have time wow that'sreally good advice.
Good well all right now let'stalk about cost reports and cash
flow management because you gointo detail about these so
(36:10):
really the question is why arethese financial tools so
critical and what can happenwhen filmmakers ignore them well
the production manager isrequire to monitor the spending
of the production money andthat's basically cost reporting.
At the end of every shoot dayfor example or at the end of a
(36:32):
shoot day there might be aquestion that comes up and that
is we're really close tofinishing we might need an hour
of overtime should we do thehour of overtime or should we
come back to this locationtomorrow?
And the producer would make thatdecision because the producer's
the last one to make thatdecision is the most responsible
(36:54):
the director and the first ADwill have a point of view based
on what's there and theproduction manager will be able
to contribute the cost estimateof the two choices.
So that the producer makes aninformed decision gets the input
from the director the first ADand the production manager and
decides you know what nope we'regonna wrap now come back
(37:16):
tomorrow or we're gonna shootthat extra hour in order to get
the day and move on to anotherlocation.
Okay.
So yeah so that's on a dailybasis you you're doing that kind
of verbally on a weekly basisyou're actually doing the cost
report um and that's partlybecause the financiers need to
(37:39):
know that you're spending themoney appropriately and that way
you can also find out you knowhow are you doing on spending
the contingency are you savingenough for post all that kind of
stuff.
Cash flow is a totally differentconcept.
Cash flow is a document well thecash flow document is a chart of
when the various costs in thebudget will happen over the
(38:00):
course of production and postlike what week it will happen
and what months it comparesthose outflows then with the
monetary inflows from thefinanciers which are known as
drawdowns.
The financiers you see theydon't give you the money all up
front they might be giving youthe money enough money to make
the movie to for your wholebudget but they're going to
(38:22):
release their money onmilestones like a percentage on
first day of principalphotography maybe a percentage
on last day of of the shoot apercentage on rough cut delivery
final costs so you're spendingmost of your money though during
principal photography but ifyou're not receiving some of
(38:43):
that money until it's likecompleted and at final costs
there's going to be a moment inproduction where your bank
balance is going to go negativeand that's called negative cash
flow.
It usually happens aroundmid-shoot, end of the shoot,
sometimes as late as early post.
Depends on your financiers andwhat drawdowns you've
(39:05):
negotiated.
So what you end up having to dothen is borrow money from a bank
or an interim lender in order topositively cash flow the
production.
So what you basically do is yousell those last drawdowns at
final cost to the bank they loanyou the money up front they
charge you interest and thenthey collect those final costs
(39:27):
at the end those final costdrawdowns so the cash flow
document is critical so that asyou get through production even
though you have enough money onpaper you won't run out of money
in the bank account Wow that'svery important right okay let's
go to location management whichI understand is most important
(39:51):
what are some of the most commonmistakes filmmakers make when
choosing and managing locationsI should have start giving you
some shorter answers.
Location management mistakes uhprobably the biggest one listen
to the location becausereplacing the sound in post can
(40:16):
be very expensive.
And so um yeah it's so it's sofunny how often you go on
surveys and scouts where they'reactually physically looking at
the location but not actuallylistening to what's going to
happen.
Survey the location with the keycrew so they can prep for it.
That's where you're also itminimizes your surprises and
(40:37):
your sound department will tellyou what the noises are.
Another part of it is time ofday of the shoot does it match
the time of day when you'resurveying so for example you can
go and survey a place and go ohyeah this is perfect and then
you show up later and the tideis out so it's like okay if
(41:02):
you've got a tide to deal withor you've got traffic to deal
with that happens at differenttimes of day so you you want to
think about not only just thelocation but when are you using
that location and then unitlogistics parking lunch location
it's not just about filming theset what are all the um
(41:26):
logistics that you need aroundthe set who are all the other
people in the neighborhood orcompanies in the neighborhood
that are going to be affected bywhat you're doing and that's why
experienced location managers doreally well as production
managers because they arethinking beyond just the set to
all the things that support theset around it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Wow that's important I hadn't thought of those things
now production insurance andcompletion bonds aren't topics
that filmmakers get excitedabout so why are they so
important?
SPEAKER_02 (42:03):
Oh God I remember when I was writing the book and
I called up an insurance companythat I've dealt with a lot and I
said you know I'd like you tolook at this and see if I've
lost anything out.
He was so excited he goes oh myGod somebody's writing about
insurance because he likes hisjob.
But anyway um the completionbond is basically malpractice
(42:27):
insurance for insurance forfilmmakers.
Investors are buying a moviethat doesn't exist yet it's very
high risk financing and the bondwill ensure the film's going to
be completed.
There will be a film to sell atthe end and therefore they will
still they will have potentialto make their money back from
(42:48):
their investment and earn aprofit when they release it.
Now not all investors require abond but some of them do.
Like a Hollywood studio filmthey don't actually use a bond.
If there's a problem they justraise the budget which actually
is a lot simpler than it soundsthey need a reasonable
expectation that they're goingwhen they sell the film at the
(43:09):
higher budget they'll actuallymake the money back.
So they they do a lot of duediligence around that.
But um I included a story in mybook which I think explains the
bond pretty well and that was Iwas working on a project that
was going over budget.
I was not the PM so I gotta saythat by the way and uh the bond
the bond rep showed up on setevery day on a regular basis
(43:34):
made everybody totally nervousbecause a bond what they do is
if they take over the productionthey think it's going out of
control they can fire whoeverthey want and finish the movie
because that's that's what theirwork that's what their insurance
is there for is that they willfinish the movie.
But the crew learned quitequickly that they're not going
(43:57):
to fire the third grip orsomething like that.
They're gonna fire the directorthe producer the DOP the first
AD or the PM or any of them sothey're they're only looking at
the keys.
So those are the guys that getreally nervous.
And for but from visiting everyday and just hanging out on the
(44:17):
set that gave enough pressure tothose keys to become more
decisive and get their days.
SPEAKER_01 (44:23):
We did end up shooting one extra day on the
shoot but you know which iscostly but we finished the film
and they didn't have to takeover the project wow that was
close yeah okay so let's go intotechnology and how it has
(44:45):
transformed filmmaking over thelast 20 years.
SPEAKER_02 (44:50):
Which technological changes have had the biggest
impact on production managementand what skills should emerging
filmmakers focus on this is sucha good question because I've
certainly been around enough tosee a lot of technological
changes and technology is alwayschanging But honestly, it
(45:13):
they're just tools.
From a PM's perspective,prototype tools and equipment,
they're costly.
But if it's important for theproduction, then it happens.
You know, we worked on a workedon a project with IMAX, which is
the 3D IMAX movie.
There was only two camerasbecause it was prototype.
(45:38):
And one of them was always beingrepaired.
And the other one was on set.
And so when that one showed up,the other one broke down and
that one went with to berepaired.
There was a time when they wereboth being repaired.
And we just had to work overtimein order to make sure that they
could show up, be ready in orderto be on set.
So it can be costly, but it wasreally important for that film.
(46:04):
But looking forward, if you'regoing to stay in film for years,
you have to know that whatevertechnological tools that you
learn today, they're going toevolve and replace be replaced
in years to come.
When I started working in film,it was before computers, before
Google, before iPads.
iPads didn't even exist.
(46:26):
We're now wrestling with how towork with AI responsibly as a
tool, not you know, not toreplace creativity in people.
At film school, I learned how tocut film on film stock, and now
it's digital.
I mean, the mechanics are thesame, but the tools are
different.
I now hire a PM who knows how touse those current tools.
(46:50):
But what is lasting is how tocut the scenes together to
create the story and theemotion.
And whether I was doing thatwith film or it's done digitally
now, that's the same.
So you know, and then but from aPM perspective, what would be
(47:11):
the biggest thing that you wouldlearn?
The the biggest effect isprobably smartphones.
Because now the communicationtravels a little differently
with everybody carrying asmartphone.
Um so but that's been around nowfor some time.
(47:31):
So I don't know what else isgonna what else is gonna be uh
new in the future, we'll see.
SPEAKER_01 (47:42):
Right.
It's gonna see exciting rightnow.
So many new things arehappening.
So if the filmmaker listeningtoday could implement just one
lesson from your book, whatwould you want that lesson to be
and why?
SPEAKER_02 (48:01):
Oh, that's so hard.
It's 500 pages.
Um the production manager isabout making decisions.
And honestly, as soon as youwrite your first budget, you're
gonna ask that question going,oh, but I don't even know what
to do here.
Well, you get to make a decisionabout it and part of that making
(48:22):
decisions is knowing when to sayno and when to say yes.
So it is, it comes back tounderstanding the story because
it's it as a production manager,you're using your expertise in
management to realize the storyon screen.
SPEAKER_01 (48:44):
Exactly.
It's all about the story, right?
When you come to the bottomline, it's all about story.
Because when people ask me aboutthe film grant, what's the most
important thing?
And I say, story, story, andmore story.
That's what we care about.
So good job.
(49:04):
Thank you so much, Deborah, forsharing your knowledge and your
experience and your book, FilmProduction Management 101.
It's clearly an invaluableresource for filmmakers who want
to master both creative andbusiness sides of production.
And thank you to our listenersfor joining us on the Art of
(49:25):
Film Funding podcast.
If you're developing a film, adocumentary, or a television
project, and you need support,be sure to visit FromTheHeart
Productions atFromTheHeartProctions.com.
For more than three decades, wehave helped independent
filmmakers move their projectsforward through sponsorship and
(49:47):
grant opportunities.
We have a lot of educationalresources and personal mentoring
on our website.
And sponsorship can make yourproject eligible to receive
tax-deductible donations, whileour grant program helps
filmmakers tell stories thatmight not otherwise be funded.
(50:08):
So visit From the Heart for freeclasses on film funding and
learn about our grants.
And until next week, keeptelling your stories and keep
following your heart.
Ever wonder who solves the countless problems
that can derail a filmproduction before they become
disasters?
Well, today's guest reveals howthis happens.
SPEAKER_00 (01:27):
Whether you're making your first documentary or
producing your tenth feature,today's conversation will reveal
the production managementsecrets that can save your
project time, money, andunnecessary stress.
So glad you could join us on theArt of Film Funding podcast.
(01:48):
I'm Claire Papin, co-producerwith Carol Dean.
Today we have a very specialguest whose work has helped
thousands of filmmakersunderstand the business and
logistics behind successful filmand television productions.
Deborah Patts has spent decadesworking as a production manager,
(02:11):
production coordinator, andproduction executive on
award-winning productions forcompanies including Lucasfilms,
IMAX, Universal, BBC, CBC, andDisney.
Her book, Film ProductionManagement 101, has become one
(02:31):
of the industry's most respectedresources and is often described
as the essential roadmap to thebusiness side of production.
The newly updated third editioncovers everything from budgeting
and scheduling to respectfulworkplaces and sustainable
production practices.
(02:53):
Deborah's practical insights cansave you years of trial and
error.
And now I'd like to welcome thefounder of From the Heart
Productions, Carol Dean, whowill lead today's conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Thank you, Claire.
So, Deborah, welcome to the Artof Film Funding Podcast.
And congratulations on yourthird edition, just that is
incredible.
Your book has become requiredreading for many filmmakers, and
Claire and I are delighted tohave this opportunity to discuss
the lessons you've learnedthroughout your remarkable
(03:30):
career.
So let's start with whatinspired you to write Film
Production Management 101, andwhat gap did you see in the
industry that needed to befilled?
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
Well, thank you first of all very much for the
invitation.
I am delighted to be here.
Um, Film Production Management101.
It actually, the first time Iwrote the book was back in, or
actually was published in 1997.
So that means I was writing itin 96.
But uh in the mid-90s, Irecognized there was no book on
(04:04):
how to be a productioncoordinator.
And I wanted to move on fromcoordination into management.
So I wrote the book and uh gotit published by Michael Weesee
Productions, and that pushed itout around the world.
Then a number of years later, by2002, after I'd been um
production managing, it wasclear that production managers
(04:29):
needed to know what coordinatorsdid.
And also I had a lot of skillsnow as production management.
So I wrote a productionmanagement book and we put the
two of them together.
And that's actually the birth ofFilm Production Management 101.
That's why the book is so thick,it's like about 500 pages.
And then I've been basicallyupdating it, but I don't update
(04:51):
it too often.
This is only like the thirdedition, but the first one was
um we were still making movieson film and doing film finish.
And then it moved over todigital, and now we have moved
into uh definitely highlightingsustainable practices, and we
have a heightened awarenessabout the need for the
(05:11):
respectful workplace.
So that's a lot of the focus ofwhat this one, this edition is.
SPEAKER_01 (05:17):
Oh, that's really important to have that update.
Good for good for you forputting that in.
You described the book asserving both production managers
and production coordinators.
So can can you explain how theseroles differ and why is it
important for filmmakers tounderstand both perspectives?
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
Yeah, well, the coordinator is basically the
right hand of the productionmanager.
The coordinator is so tappedinto the logistics of
production, it's probablythey're probably the only person
who knows everybody at the rapparty.
They basically put into actionwhatever the production
decisions are.
The production manager, however,is actually making a lot of
(06:00):
those production decisions.
And they start with that back atthe budget, in that they're
allocating the production moneyto various categories to
determine which crew is going tobe hired, how big is the crew,
what equipment can be rented,what locations can be used, is
it gonna be studio shoot or alocation shoot, union, not
(06:20):
union?
So it is a monetary perspective,but they're still making those
decisions.
And if you make a promise or adecision in prep or on set in
any department, you're basicallyspending the production money.
So that's why the productionmanager has that perspective.
They know they have to know howto spend the budget, but also
(06:43):
make sure that the project comesin on time and on budget while
realizing the director's vision.
SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
Okay, so then what's the line producer doing?
Do you still have a lineproducer with the coordinator?
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Yeah, uh you can.
The larger the production, youyou have to start splitting out
into um splitting out the jobinto more people.
And a line producer is often uha very experienced production
manager who's moving intoproducing.
And they can be a line producerwho's also a PM on a project, or
(07:21):
there can be a line producer anda separate PM, just like you
could have a PM and an assistantPM, depending on what skills
people are bringing to theproject.
SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
Okay, that makes sense.
Okay.
One of the themes of the book istaking a project from prep
through post-production.
And um, you even covered theaudit process, which is
wonderful.
So, why do so many filmmakersunderestimate the importance of
planning for the end of theproduction while they're still
(07:52):
at the beginning?
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Well, that's probably because there's so much
to do to turn a script into afilm.
I mean, um, you don't reallylearn how to prep for an audit
in a film class.
It's next to impossible to teachanybody how to manage a
production budget in a filmclass because the equipment is
usually part of the program, soit's basically free.
(08:16):
The cast and crew arevolunteers, so they're basically
free.
So, how are you tracking thatmoney?
That leaves learning by doing.
So you make mistakes on oneproduction, you learn how to do
it better on the nextproduction, and that's comes
down to why I wrote the book.
So that you don't have to makemistakes in the first place.
You can just flip over to thething away.
(08:38):
Oh yeah, I got to get thisready.
So, my first coordinating job,for example, I built a four-page
checklist before I started basedon all my experiences in
production to date.
By the end of that production,it had already bloomed to 11
pages.
And that was the core of whatbecame the first book, which was
(09:00):
called Surviving Production.
Now the book, like I said, islike 500 pages.
It's not meant to be read inorder.
It's not meant to be read everychapter for every production.
The idea is that it grows withyou.
There's chapters on legalclearances, you might not have
them, uh, customs andimmigration, you might not be
(09:20):
moving people around, completionbond, all that sort of thing.
But the audit, the audit happensat the end of all of them.
And it it's not really surprisedthat it's so far away, and the
production manager is no longerworking on the project to
recognize that everything thatyou prep is in order to get to
(09:41):
that audit.
SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
All right.
And the audit uh means what?
Tell us.
SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
Oh, the audit is uh done by an independent
accountant who looks at all theuh accounting documentation and
validates that you spent themoney where you said you spent
the money.
And the idea is that the moneyis spent in um actual production
(10:08):
costs, and you didn't just spendthe production money and go out
and buy yourself a car.
Right.
Um, you actually made the moviewith it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
So every expense has to have a line, uh number, an
account number, and be verifiedwith a piece of paper for every
expense that you have.
Wow.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
And that's why there's um uh code numbers all
the way through the budget,because that is actually
preparing for the audit when youare budgeting.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
Right.
Every code number for everyitem.
So great.
So budgeting is oftenintimidating for new filmmakers.
So what are the biggestbudgeting mistakes that you see
with independent producers andhow can they avoid them?
Oh, that's such a good question.
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
And I could talk for ages about budgets, but um let
me approach the intimidationfactor and the budgeting
mistakes by dispelling somemyths.
The first myth about budgeting,when you're about to start
budgeting a project, is you willnever have enough time and money
(11:19):
to make your project.
So just relax.
You're never going to.
Um, I've worked on micro budgetfilms, I've worked on
multi-million dollar films whereI'm still telling people, I'm
sorry, I don't have enough moneyto pay you more and all that
stuff.
The bigger the budget, itusually is the bigger the
(11:41):
logistics.
And so there is just more thathas to be in the budget.
So at least you can relax withthat one.
Now, the budget includes bothtime and money.
So this is another thing toknow.
You're not alone.
The first AD is key in managingthe schedule, and the key and
the PM is key in managing thebudget.
(12:03):
So you're already working as ateam.
The director's gonna have input,the producer's gonna have input.
There's um, I've got onlineresources on my website,
debats.com, their companionlinks for the book.
And that will help you find ratesheets and stuff to help you
with budgeting.
So that's another nice thing toknow.
(12:25):
Um, another myth, you're notactually budgeting, in that
you're not saying how much isthis going to cost.
You're allocating funds thathave already been raised.
So it's a kind of reversebudgeting.
You raise a certain amount ofthe producer's going to raise a
certain amount of money to makea movie, and you need just have
to allocate the funds to thevarious categories in the
(12:47):
budget.
So it's it's not like a blankcheck.
You just have to sort of figureout where you're going to put
that.
But the trick, and this is whereyour experience will help.
And that's why it it's very hardto jump in as a production
manager.
You want to actually have someproduction experience getting
there.
Is that what are the productionchoices that have to be made to
(13:08):
realize the budget at thatbudget level to realize the
director's vision?
So those are the productiondecisions that the production
manager has to make.
So, for example, are there goingto be Vista shots, which are
expensive because you have toclose off a lot of space, or are
they going to be shooting itwith close-ups in front of a
(13:30):
hedge?
Well, that's not a lot of spaceto, you know, physical space to
use up.
So that'll actually be cheaper.
So when you think about it, theproduction manager needs to know
how to make a movie in order todo some of the budgeting.
Um and when you're do makewriting the budget, you're also
(13:52):
making a list of assumptions.
And so that's anything like howmany days is going to be the
shoot?
Are you using unions or not?
Is it a fall shoot?
But the script is for winter,which means you need snow
making.
So any of those productiondecisions you make as you're
doing the budget, you make alist of assumptions so that you
(14:12):
can explain what's going on.
And the final myth I'm gonna umit's not the final one, but the
third myth that I'm gonna dispelis draft one of the budget will
not be draft final.
Just like the script goesthrough script revisions, the
budget will go through budgetrevisions.
So you don't have to be perfectthe first time.
(14:34):
Um, but you did ask aboutmistakes, so I'm gonna give you
one mistake that's really worththinking about.
The biggest mistake I've seen isyou're not leaving enough money
for post.
Make sure that the post is wellbudgeted, make sure you save at
least 40% of contingency becauseyou're post, because if you
(14:56):
don't finish the film, there'sno film to sell in the market
afterward.
SPEAKER_01 (15:01):
Wow, that's so important.
You're right.
I've said I run into films thathave gotten into post, started,
run out of money, and are stillsitting there waiting to be
finished.
Yeah, it's really bad when youspend all that time on the film.
Well, tell me what percentage ofthe budget normally goes to the
(15:24):
producers.
I heard you could budget six toten percent.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Well, um, it depends.
It depends on what thepercentage is based on.
It depends on who's financingyour project, and it also
depends on what is yourdefinition of producer.
So six to ten percent is it ofthe whole budget or is it the
(15:51):
below the line costs?
Because the budget is dividedinto above the line, which is uh
the costs that were um assembledduring development of the
script, which is like storywrite, script, uh writer
development costs, producer,director, star.
Uh, and those things, thosecosts can vary dramatically.
(16:14):
On a big budget, they can beunusually high.
And on a micro budget, they canbe painfully low.
So since that range is so huge,you usually don't bother
including that in yourcalculation for what is the
percentage of the producer fee.
Um, below the line costs wouldbe is usually divided into two
(16:36):
sections, below the lineproduction, which is principal
photography, and below the lineposts.
And so those are considered likethe direct production costs.
And typically you would do apercentage of those costs
because they're a lot morepredictable.
There is another section at thebottom for like financing and
insurance and legal.
(16:57):
And again, depending on howyou're financing the project,
they can those costs can rangedramatically because they're not
actually about hiring the craft,hiring the crew, and hiring the
locations which are directcosts.
So often those also get left outof the calculation.
(17:17):
And then some financiers willhave restrictions on what the
producer's fees are.
So they might say that 20% of uhdirect costs, or 30% if it's a
low budget documentary.
Um and then finally, um, who isthe producer?
There are so many producertitles.
(17:39):
You mentioned line producer,there's also supervising
producers, executive producers,co-producers, and straight
producers.
Um, in some cases, financiersrequire they all end up sharing
the same producer fee.
And in some cases, it's just theshareholders of the company that
share that producer fee.
(17:59):
So, again, that's again where itgets tied into financiers.
So, not really the answer youwanted, because I could have
just said yes or no.
Um, I would say though, six toten percent of the overall
budget.
Well, if you have toover-generalize, it's not out of
line for the first draft of thisof the budget.
But as you start assembling umall the different parts, you
(18:23):
probably have to revise theproducer fee.
SPEAKER_01 (18:25):
Okay, but you do have an idea somewhere in there
to get started.
Exactly.
You really need that number toraise the funds.
So you should probably lean onthe higher side, higher
percentage.
If you can, yep.
Well, from what you said, um,the production manager has to
(18:46):
have a good amount of experiencefor you to turn your money and
film over to them.
They have to have made somefilms before, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
Uh, well, I mean, the somebody's got to manage for
the first time.
So production managers can comeup through a number of different
ways on production.
I came up through the productioncoordination route.
I've seen people come up throughproduction accounting, which of
course they'll be very strong inthe money side of things.
(19:18):
I've also seen really goodproduction managers come up
through location managementbecause again, you're dealing
with a lot of the logistics onset and locations and stuff.
So, and uh so it really varies.
So you don't actually have toknow everything when you're
doing it, but that's that'swhere my book was designed to be
(19:41):
open on the desk as you'reworking, so that if you need a
mentor to say, Oh my gosh, howdo I deal with X, you can just
flip to the chapter and go,okay, good, somebody's given me
some ideas.
And uh and and really, and I'veseen people do that.
I mean, that's the reason Iwrote it so that I could do it.
I would have it open, right?
(20:01):
I gave myself a checklist at thebeginning.
And uh and there is a checklistout there to count down through
to production to go, I havethree weeks before shooting.
Have you done this?
And uh so you don't have to knoweverything, but you'll you're
gonna learn on every production.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Yes, you will learn on every production, and you
need to know where to find theinformation you don't know.
That's what you mean.
That's true.
Okay.
Uh well, how do you decide whichproducer gets what job?
Because sometimes you see six ormore producers on films, and you
realize that each one must havea separate responsibility.
(20:47):
So who makes that decision?
SPEAKER_02 (20:50):
Yeah, there's so many producer titles.
Um I guess, in short, theproducer team, the producing
team has to get together anddecide among us amongst
themselves.
Just like a production managercan come up through several
paths, producers come up throughseveral paths.
Some of them will come upthrough production management,
some will come up through legal,some will come up through um
(21:12):
working on script and story,some of them through acting.
So there's no one route toproducing.
And if there is more than oneproducer, they're usually
working together because theyhave complementary skills.
So they will decide amongstthemselves what that is.
(21:32):
Now, the line producer wealready talked about is you
think very often the veryexperienced production manager,
very work, very much workingwith the logistics of the
production.
Executive producer or associateproducer, they can be credits
that are given out as acourtesy.
Um, so those people may not evenshow up on set.
(21:54):
Or they can be paid positionsand they're a very active part
of the producing team.
So it totally varies on everyproduction.
But the title that is just likestraight producer, no leading
qualifier, that is the mainproducer and the one who has to
make the final decision, mostresponsible.
And you can have more than oneof those, but try to reduce it
(22:19):
to one where possible.
SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
And that you can only have three producers if uh
they go up for an Academy Award.
That's all that's that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (22:28):
Yeah, they reduce that at the Academy Awards
because there's too many peopletaking the producer category.
I mean, if too many, it itstarts to devalue the position
if there's too many peoplesharing it and they're not
actually doing the work.
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
And I noticed on Spielberg's new film, there's
only he and one other person asthe producer.
There's only two names there.
The main yeah.
So um this has become this isvery important to know going in,
because we all think that thethis film we're working on has a
chance at an Academy Award.
(23:05):
So I think that solved first uhthe first question is who's
going on the stage?
SPEAKER_02 (23:11):
with whom that's right now we're getting into
chapter six hiring the crew uhand i was told by another uh
producer that she uh wouldalways uh call uh every referral
(23:32):
when she's looking to hiresomeone she would call who they
said for referral and then ifshe found two people who were
similar with experience andfeedback she would pick the one
that was uh easier to get alongwith on the set is that is
common honestly I don't know ifI've ever found two people who
(23:56):
are that similar but buttheoretically if I did I mean
yes definitely call referencesdefinitely call contacts on
previous productions so they maynot be references as listed on a
on a CV uh but if I see aproject a previous project I
(24:17):
could definitely call a previousuh previous production and also
find out more about this personbecause think about it film
productions they have to cometogether really quickly the team
has to work together veryintensely and it's for a very
short time if someone happens tobe problematic on that team you
(24:38):
might choose to keep them to theend of production because
there's no time to replace themand that's one of the reasons
you really need to callreferences.
On the other hand there is alsopersonality clashes that can
happen and so not in thereference may not be valid
(24:58):
because you might be able to getalong with them.
So you have to be mindful whenyou're actually doing that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Yeah yeah because you've got to have that crew
communicating with each otherand happy to work there
together.
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
Yeah because it's it's all about creating a team
right you have to have a teamthat works really well together.
And so you know the productionmanager and the producer will be
hiring keys who will in turntypically be hiring their teams.
So it is about building a teamthat's going to work together.
(25:36):
And so theoretically if you'rein that choice where there's two
of the same people you have toknow they're gonna work the if
you get a sense that they'regonna work together as a team
that will be great.
SPEAKER_01 (25:46):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (25:48):
So usually when you hire a director of photography
he brings his crew absolutelyright and that's a I will tell a
story about a project I didwhere it was a short that I
managed to do an entire almostentirely upgrading crew.
I wanted to work on this film Iread the script from this writer
(26:12):
director and uh it was ratherexperimental but I could see how
it all took place in um a houseset and I was working at the
time on a project that had abeautiful house set.
And so I was the coordinator onthat show and I was managing the
short.
(26:32):
So I asked if I could use theset and they said well you'll
have to find one of the the keycrew to work on it.
Well I knew the gaffer wanted tobecome a DP so I offered the
gaffer a position as a DP wellthat set so many things in into
(26:53):
position because then when hefit into that position his
electric and grip team that wereworking with him for the last
two years all upgraded once onon the project and joined him
because they wanted to supporthim as a new DP and then um and
(27:14):
then I also got um well theequipment warehouse was very
happy to help support him aswell um and the camera team they
all upgraded one.
So the clapper loader became thefocus puller the trainee became
the clapper loader and then thesound team which of course there
(27:39):
was only two of them he saysokay you can't hire everybody
and not us.
I know we're not upgrading butwe're gonna join you too so I
was able to put this this shorttogether with a crew that had
basically been working togetherfor two years on this set.
So it was completely beautifulbut you know that doesn't happen
(28:01):
all the time but but it is thatwhole thing about how people
will work together in teams andthey will also upgrade together
in teams because once you startworking with people and you get
that sort of second languagegoing on set, you want to keep
it going on other productions.
SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
Yes that's brilliant well done now um you've worked
on productions of many sizes sowhat production management
principles remain the samewhether you're making a small
documentary or a major studioproject okay I'm gonna give you
(28:47):
two principles.
SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
The first one is every cast and crew member is
valuable sounds obvious but onthe bigger crews it's very hard
for each person to see theircontribution to the whole and so
it really helps if you can helpthem see it.
(29:12):
Because it's not just about thenumbers it's about the people
who are making the film and sothat is a really important
concept that you have to getacross because you know if
there's only 10 people on theproject everybody's doing so
much.
But if there's 150 people doingthe same amount of work as it
were everybody's doing a verysmall slice of that big
(29:34):
production the second principleI was going to I'm just going to
I would say is the productionmanager needs no needs to know
how to say no, which is oftenwhat they're known for but they
also have to know when to sayyes and that comes to spending
the production budget.
(29:56):
So the production manager needsto know where is the story in
the script and I mean thedirector's vision of the story.
So just as an example it's anexterior exterior of a building
the character's walking into thebuilding it's a separate
location it's a unit move can isthat scene completely necessary
(30:19):
or can you tell that story thesame way by the character
arriving into the room takingoff their coat and now you have
not done a location move soyou've actually saved a lot of
production time.
And I mean you can you can'tanswer that because part of it
is the director's vision.
Okay.
(30:41):
I will take I will give youanother example and that was
this was when I was doing IMAXuh IMAX 3D IMAX it was a space
city x outside the space city is3D animation and the set was a a
set and we needed to connect thetwo of them so we created a shot
(31:03):
that was supposedly um constantstarted full frame animation
went down into the space citywhere you would see the animated
background with with real peopleplugged into it so that they
look like they were walking andthen the camera keeps going down
(31:24):
into one of the buildings andyou're in this you're in the set
so you're you think you're inthe building and we've now
connected the animation to theset and you feel like you're in
space not like you're on astudio set.
But there were eight secondswhere we had an animated
background where we had to putactual people in we ended up
(31:45):
renting the Skydome in Torontoputting people walking around on
the green screen of the of theoutfield and plugging them in.
It was a really expensive shotbut it was the sell shot and
totally required for the storyof that movie.
So we knew we had to make thatso that's when you need to know
(32:06):
when to say yes.
Absolutely but this I think thisis really important to bring to
the attention uh when you see ashot that could be condensed
into from two shots to one uhsave money and time but who
takes this information to whomuh well that's where you're
(32:32):
having meetings with um producerand director and and that's
where that's where the PM oftengets noticed as the no person
because it's they're challengingideas of do we need this?
Can we combine that?
Right and that's where you getthat sense of oh they always say
(32:52):
no but also needs to know whento say yes.
Exactly so your book get goesinto a discussion on script
breakdowns and scheduling whichis so important and tell us how
much money and stress can a wellprepared schedule save during
(33:12):
production basically you'retalking about pre-production
work and that is so essentialtoday more than ever.
When we did green screen youwould have a green screen on the
set and CGI computer imagerywould be created for that
background while you wereshooting and during post it
(33:35):
would get inserted.
But today we now do things likevirtual production which was
made famous on the Mandalorianand what happens is that CGI
background imagery is added ontoa volume stage which is like a
huge wraparound TV screenbackground and that imagery is
(33:57):
there on the shoot day.
Well that tells you that you'renot building that while you're
shooting you're building that inprep in order to get to the
shoot day.
So that's putting a lot morepressure on prep work in order
to get to the shoot day insteadof saying oh yeah we'll add that
later in post.
(34:18):
So the ADs are using thebreakdowns to know what actually
has to show up on that shootday.
If the character reaches for aglass that glass better be there
and props will make sure it'sthere you end up reusing those
script breakdowns at least thecoordinator will end up reusing
it into the um shootingschedules and then reuse it
(34:41):
again onto the call sheet whenit gets to the call sheet it's
not really news for anybodybecause you've had so many
meetings about it and everybodyhas been working to get there.
But you end up re keep reusingit which is very useful.
But that concept of uh prep isreally important in that there
was a sign that this artdepartment put up once which I
(35:04):
just loved and it was calledthey would put it up on the
entrance to the art departmentand that was fast, good, cheap,
pick two because you won't getall three and prep is about
doing everything cheap and andgood because you have time in
prep you haven't actuallystarted shooting.
(35:24):
As soon as you start shootingthere's no time left you've
gotten an X number of days inorder to capture the imagery.
So shoot will be fast.
And so if you can only pick oneof the other two it's either
going to be good or it's goingto be cheap.
Well you're not gonna choose Idon't want it to be good.
So when you're shooting it willbe fast and it will be expensive
(35:48):
in order to make it happen.
So the only where you can savemoney is in prep when you
actually have time wow that'sreally good advice.
Good well all right now let'stalk about cost reports and cash
flow management because you gointo detail about these so
(36:10):
really the question is why arethese financial tools so
critical and what can happenwhen filmmakers ignore them well
the production manager isrequire to monitor the spending
of the production money andthat's basically cost reporting.
At the end of every shoot dayfor example or at the end of a
(36:32):
shoot day there might be aquestion that comes up and that
is we're really close tofinishing we might need an hour
of overtime should we do thehour of overtime or should we
come back to this locationtomorrow?
And the producer would make thatdecision because the producer's
the last one to make thatdecision is the most responsible
(36:54):
the director and the first ADwill have a point of view based
on what's there and theproduction manager will be able
to contribute the cost estimateof the two choices.
So that the producer makes aninformed decision gets the input
from the director the first ADand the production manager and
decides you know what nope we'regonna wrap now come back
(37:16):
tomorrow or we're gonna shootthat extra hour in order to get
the day and move on to anotherlocation.
Okay.
So yeah so that's on a dailybasis you you're doing that kind
of verbally on a weekly basisyou're actually doing the cost
report um and that's partlybecause the financiers need to
(37:39):
know that you're spending themoney appropriately and that way
you can also find out you knowhow are you doing on spending
the contingency are you savingenough for post all that kind of
stuff.
Cash flow is a totally differentconcept.
Cash flow is a document well thecash flow document is a chart of
when the various costs in thebudget will happen over the
(38:00):
course of production and postlike what week it will happen
and what months it comparesthose outflows then with the
monetary inflows from thefinanciers which are known as
drawdowns.
The financiers you see theydon't give you the money all up
front they might be giving youthe money enough money to make
the movie to for your wholebudget but they're going to
(38:22):
release their money onmilestones like a percentage on
first day of principalphotography maybe a percentage
on last day of of the shoot apercentage on rough cut delivery
final costs so you're spendingmost of your money though during
principal photography but ifyou're not receiving some of
(38:43):
that money until it's likecompleted and at final costs
there's going to be a moment inproduction where your bank
balance is going to go negativeand that's called negative cash
flow.
It usually happens aroundmid-shoot, end of the shoot,
sometimes as late as early post.
Depends on your financiers andwhat drawdowns you've
(39:05):
negotiated.
So what you end up having to dothen is borrow money from a bank
or an interim lender in order topositively cash flow the
production.
So what you basically do is yousell those last drawdowns at
final cost to the bank they loanyou the money up front they
charge you interest and thenthey collect those final costs
(39:27):
at the end those final costdrawdowns so the cash flow
document is critical so that asyou get through production even
though you have enough money onpaper you won't run out of money
in the bank account Wow that'svery important right okay let's
go to location management whichI understand is most important
(39:51):
what are some of the most commonmistakes filmmakers make when
choosing and managing locationsI should have start giving you
some shorter answers.
Location management mistakes uhprobably the biggest one listen
to the location becausereplacing the sound in post can
(40:16):
be very expensive.
And so um yeah it's so it's sofunny how often you go on
surveys and scouts where they'reactually physically looking at
the location but not actuallylistening to what's going to
happen.
Survey the location with the keycrew so they can prep for it.
That's where you're also itminimizes your surprises and
(40:37):
your sound department will tellyou what the noises are.
Another part of it is time ofday of the shoot does it match
the time of day when you'resurveying so for example you can
go and survey a place and go ohyeah this is perfect and then
you show up later and the tideis out so it's like okay if
(41:02):
you've got a tide to deal withor you've got traffic to deal
with that happens at differenttimes of day so you you want to
think about not only just thelocation but when are you using
that location and then unitlogistics parking lunch location
it's not just about filming theset what are all the um
(41:26):
logistics that you need aroundthe set who are all the other
people in the neighborhood orcompanies in the neighborhood
that are going to be affected bywhat you're doing and that's why
experienced location managers doreally well as production
managers because they arethinking beyond just the set to
all the things that support theset around it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Wow that's important I hadn't thought of those things
now production insurance andcompletion bonds aren't topics
that filmmakers get excitedabout so why are they so
important?
SPEAKER_02 (42:03):
Oh God I remember when I was writing the book and
I called up an insurance companythat I've dealt with a lot and I
said you know I'd like you tolook at this and see if I've
lost anything out.
He was so excited he goes oh myGod somebody's writing about
insurance because he likes hisjob.
But anyway um the completionbond is basically malpractice
(42:27):
insurance for insurance forfilmmakers.
Investors are buying a moviethat doesn't exist yet it's very
high risk financing and the bondwill ensure the film's going to
be completed.
There will be a film to sell atthe end and therefore they will
still they will have potentialto make their money back from
(42:48):
their investment and earn aprofit when they release it.
Now not all investors require abond but some of them do.
Like a Hollywood studio filmthey don't actually use a bond.
If there's a problem they justraise the budget which actually
is a lot simpler than it soundsthey need a reasonable
expectation that they're goingwhen they sell the film at the
(43:09):
higher budget they'll actuallymake the money back.
So they they do a lot of duediligence around that.
But um I included a story in mybook which I think explains the
bond pretty well and that was Iwas working on a project that
was going over budget.
I was not the PM so I gotta saythat by the way and uh the bond
the bond rep showed up on setevery day on a regular basis
(43:34):
made everybody totally nervousbecause a bond what they do is
if they take over the productionthey think it's going out of
control they can fire whoeverthey want and finish the movie
because that's that's what theirwork that's what their insurance
is there for is that they willfinish the movie.
But the crew learned quitequickly that they're not going
(43:57):
to fire the third grip orsomething like that.
They're gonna fire the directorthe producer the DOP the first
AD or the PM or any of them sothey're they're only looking at
the keys.
So those are the guys that getreally nervous.
And for but from visiting everyday and just hanging out on the
(44:17):
set that gave enough pressure tothose keys to become more
decisive and get their days.
SPEAKER_01 (44:23):
We did end up shooting one extra day on the
shoot but you know which iscostly but we finished the film
and they didn't have to takeover the project wow that was
close yeah okay so let's go intotechnology and how it has
(44:45):
transformed filmmaking over thelast 20 years.
SPEAKER_02 (44:50):
Which technological changes have had the biggest
impact on production managementand what skills should emerging
filmmakers focus on this is sucha good question because I've
certainly been around enough tosee a lot of technological
changes and technology is alwayschanging But honestly, it
(45:13):
they're just tools.
From a PM's perspective,prototype tools and equipment,
they're costly.
But if it's important for theproduction, then it happens.
You know, we worked on a workedon a project with IMAX, which is
the 3D IMAX movie.
There was only two camerasbecause it was prototype.
(45:38):
And one of them was always beingrepaired.
And the other one was on set.
And so when that one showed up,the other one broke down and
that one went with to berepaired.
There was a time when they wereboth being repaired.
And we just had to work overtimein order to make sure that they
could show up, be ready in orderto be on set.
So it can be costly, but it wasreally important for that film.
(46:04):
But looking forward, if you'regoing to stay in film for years,
you have to know that whatevertechnological tools that you
learn today, they're going toevolve and replace be replaced
in years to come.
When I started working in film,it was before computers, before
Google, before iPads.
iPads didn't even exist.
(46:26):
We're now wrestling with how towork with AI responsibly as a
tool, not you know, not toreplace creativity in people.
At film school, I learned how tocut film on film stock, and now
it's digital.
I mean, the mechanics are thesame, but the tools are
different.
I now hire a PM who knows how touse those current tools.
(46:50):
But what is lasting is how tocut the scenes together to
create the story and theemotion.
And whether I was doing thatwith film or it's done digitally
now, that's the same.
So you know, and then but from aPM perspective, what would be
(47:11):
the biggest thing that you wouldlearn?
The the biggest effect isprobably smartphones.
Because now the communicationtravels a little differently
with everybody carrying asmartphone.
Um so but that's been around nowfor some time.
(47:31):
So I don't know what else isgonna what else is gonna be uh
new in the future, we'll see.
SPEAKER_01 (47:42):
Right.
It's gonna see exciting rightnow.
So many new things arehappening.
So if the filmmaker listeningtoday could implement just one
lesson from your book, whatwould you want that lesson to be
and why?
SPEAKER_02 (48:01):
Oh, that's so hard.
It's 500 pages.
Um the production manager isabout making decisions.
And honestly, as soon as youwrite your first budget, you're
gonna ask that question going,oh, but I don't even know what
to do here.
Well, you get to make a decisionabout it and part of that making
(48:22):
decisions is knowing when to sayno and when to say yes.
So it is, it comes back tounderstanding the story because
it's it as a production manager,you're using your expertise in
management to realize the storyon screen.
SPEAKER_01 (48:44):
Exactly.
It's all about the story, right?
When you come to the bottomline, it's all about story.
Because when people ask me aboutthe film grant, what's the most
important thing?
And I say, story, story, andmore story.
That's what we care about.
So good job.
(49:04):
Thank you so much, Deborah, forsharing your knowledge and your
experience and your book, FilmProduction Management 101.
It's clearly an invaluableresource for filmmakers who want
to master both creative andbusiness sides of production.
And thank you to our listenersfor joining us on the Art of
(49:25):
Film Funding podcast.
If you're developing a film, adocumentary, or a television
project, and you need support,be sure to visit FromTheHeart
Productions atFromTheHeartProctions.com.
For more than three decades, wehave helped independent
filmmakers move their projectsforward through sponsorship and
(49:47):
grant opportunities.
We have a lot of educationalresources and personal mentoring
on our website.
And sponsorship can make yourproject eligible to receive
tax-deductible donations, whileour grant program helps
filmmakers tell stories thatmight not otherwise be funded.
(50:08):
So visit From the Heart for freeclasses on film funding and
learn about our grants.
And until next week, keeptelling your stories and keep
following your heart.
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