June 10, 2026 • 44 mins
Rae Shaw is a Black female writer-director whose work has been evolving to stretch the boundaries of how Black women see and are seen in the world. Her work concentrates on lifting the experiences of Black women and women of color by telling stories that dimensionalize us in spaces that have sought to diminish, exploit and punish us through stereotypes. Her screenplays have won honors at top international screenwriting competitions, and her film work has screened at top film festivals. She is the author of the recent screenwriting book, THE SHORT, from MWP, the foremost publisher of independent filmmaking books.
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SPEAKER_02 (01:15):
How do you make an award-winning short film?
Well, that's the question we'recovering today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Hello, everyone, and so glad you could join us for
this special class and podcastpresentation.
I'm Claire Papan, co-producer ofthis series, and I'm delighted
to be here with my colleague,Carol Dean, writer, producer,
founder of From the HeartProductions, and one of the film
(01:44):
industry's most dedicatedadvocates for independent
filmmakers.
Today we're joined by anextraordinary guest whose work
has been transforming the way wethink about storytelling,
representation, and the art ofshort filmmaking.
Ray Shaw is a black femalewriter-director whose work
(02:06):
expands the boundaries of howblack women see themselves and
are seen in the world.
Through her films andscreenplays, she creates
multi-dimensional stories thatchallenge stereotypes and
celebrate authenticity,vulnerability, and imagination.
(02:27):
Her award-winning screenplayshave earned recognition in
prestigious internationalscreenwriting competitions, and
her films have screened at majorfestivals.
Ray is also a respectedfilmmaker, shorts curator,
script archivist, and educator.
(02:49):
She's received numerousfellowships, including Mellon
and ITBS Diversity DevelopmentFund Fellowships, and currently
teaches in the School of Cinemaat San Francisco State
University.
Today we'll be discussing heracclaimed book, The Short,
(03:09):
published by Michael WeeseeProductions.
Whether you're an emergingfilmmaker, an experienced
storyteller, or simply curiousabout the power of short films,
Ray's Insights offer practicalguidance on writing, developing,
producing, funding, andmaximizing the impact of short
(03:33):
form storytelling.
And Carol, Michael Weezy is yourpublisher too, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
Yes, I get to work with Michael Weezy.
He has the best books forfilmmakers.
And welcome, Ray.
We're thrilled to have you withus.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Thank you so much, Carol and Claire.
I'm so thrilled to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (03:53):
Great.
Okay, so let's get started.
I want to know what inspired youto write the short and what gap
did you see in filmmakingeducation that needed to be
filled?
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
Well, you know, first I want to say that when I
met Michael and connected withhim, he was really interested in
my short work.
He really liked that I'd doneexperimental films, a trailer,
some narrative work.
And so I think it really startedthere.
(04:30):
And once I was on board andstarted writing the book, then I
was really interested in how canI write a book for my students?
We never have enough time in theclassroom.
And so I really was thinkingabout them and how I could
create a book that was a lotmore accessible and that leveled
(04:55):
the playing field forfilmmakers, whatever their
backgrounds.
I really was interested inseeing a uh a short by David
Lynch next to a short fromsomeone that everyone doesn't
know.
Um, like uh there's a reallygreat French film that's about a
(05:18):
cockroach.
And, you know, those two filmsare um, you know, are in
relationship and conversationwith each other.
But in the industry, you know,we would put someone like David
Lynch on a pedestal and notthink about um, you know, this
(05:39):
this other filmmaker uh who wasum uh uh able to get some grants
from the Doha uh Institute.
And and I think also for thebook, I was really interested in
creating a space of yeses and anindustry of no's.
(06:03):
You know, films are still, yeah,you know, films are still this
place where dreams come aliveevery day.
But I remember, you know, withmy time in the industry, you
know, you there's just so manypeople that are saying, no, you
can't, you can't do this, youcan't do that.
And in my book, I wanted to say,you know, yes, you can and you
(06:27):
will.
SPEAKER_02 (06:29):
Oh, that is so important.
Thank you very much, becauseyou've got to support other
filmmakers.
I don't tell filmmakers uh thehard part because it's a long,
hard road to get a filmmadesometimes.
But if you don't know that, thenyou're more likely to sail
(06:50):
through it, have a wonderfultime, and be quite successful.
That's what they need to hear.
The yes.
So thank you for that.
Now, uh, you describe the shortfilms as their own art form.
I love that.
Rather than most people think ofit as a stepping stone to
features, so why do you thinkthat distinction is so
(07:13):
important?
SPEAKER_00 (07:15):
You know, I love short films because they're not
they're not precious.
Uh, you know, when you approacha short film, there's just an
openness.
And I think the most importantthing is that there's just less
risk.
There's there's more possibilityfor fun, there's more
possibility for play.
(07:36):
The approach is totallydifferent.
There's less to lose, there'sless on the line, you know.
Um, and I um I remember just asan example, thinking about Sean
Baker when he talked about histransition from making tangerine
to the Florida project.
(07:58):
Tangerine is a feature, but hewas making shorts before that.
And I I like to look attangerine as kind of like a long
short because of the the styleand you know, using the phones
and giving the phones to theactors.
And, you know, in some ways, Ilike to think of it as um uh
kind of like an anthology um ofsmall shorts all brought
(08:22):
together to make a feature.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Oh, he's a great filmmaker.
That Florida project is soprecious.
It's the kids.
The kids made it so delightful,I think.
I really love it.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Well, what do you think are thebiggest misconceptions
filmmakers have about makingshort films?
SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
Yes, that is a favorite question.
Uh the thing that I really tryand express in the book that I
think is the big secret is thatpeople have made careers of
short content.
It's kind of a big secret,right?
That uh folks like Spike Lee andWonkar Wai are also making
(09:07):
commercials.
Yes.
Yeah.
And uh there's also music videoscan also be really lucrative,
you know, not to mention uh thesocial media influencers who are
out there.
So, you know, it's it's kind ofthis quiet secret that a lot of
(09:29):
uh strong, independentfilmmakers, you know, they they
do their industry work in shortcontent and then get to make the
films they want to make um fromthose funds.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:45):
Right.
Well, uh in your book, TheShort, you discuss the unique
structure of short film.
So tell us, how does writing acompelling short differ from
writing a feature screenplay?
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Yeah, you know, I I think there's something really
magical about shorts that uhthat I just find so attractive.
I love uh Lynn Ramsey's work inparticular.
It's so poetic and dreamy, butyou know, when I think about her
features and her shorts, I feellike, you know, the feature
(10:25):
script is like a it's like adeep dive into an idea, you
know, and um some of the devicesI use with my students is uh,
you know, trying to think of umthe subplots of a feature film
as kind of like branches of atree.
Um, but a short script is uhmore like a promise.
(10:50):
It's a promise of what's tocome.
It's a wish, it's a dream, it'suh it's an experiment, it's an
exploration.
And I think short films, youknow, they they can come from a
really personal place.
And I think that's that'sreally, really powerful.
You know, there's there's noindustry influence, there's not
(11:12):
like uh um investors involved,all these people that you have
to be accountable to.
You know, the process ofdevelopment, you know, can be as
unique as the person, you know,whether you go to film school or
not, you know, people will usewhatever resources they have
available to them to start tomake it.
(11:33):
And I and I think that's a abeautiful process.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
Yes, it is.
And when it is a personal story,uh I as a grantor, I set up a
short film grant.
I love it, and I love to seewhen it's a personal story
because you know, first of all,it's going to be excellent, and
they have their heart in it.
You know they're going to finishit because it's their material
(12:00):
they're putting together.
Um so I want you to tell us howpeople can use your book to
their greatest advantage.
Start in the beginning and goall the way through it, or can
you pick up and look at anychapter as needed?
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
Yeah, I'm glad you I'm glad you asked that
question.
I do think it's I've written itin a way that you don't have to
go through it chapter by chapterin order.
And I do invite people to kindof peruse and look through it,
you know, kind of like um uh ascript oftentimes, you know,
(12:39):
when when I used to do coverageback in the day, you know,
you're you're always sort ofgoing to the end of the script
and then going to the to themiddle, you know, back to the
beginning before you startreading it.
So so definitely, you know,going to the chapter, um, the
table of contents and looking atthe different chapters, I think
(12:59):
is great.
But I want filmmakers to reallyuse it as um a tool to think
about how to build a career ofstorytelling.
You know, the book is filledwith examples, you know, it
really talks about the landscapeof short content.
It talks about transitions, youknow, how you move from one form
(13:22):
to another.
And more importantly, you know,it really talks about language,
you know, the craft, the craftof how you're putting the words
together to create sounds andimagery.
I think more than anything, thebook is about form, you know,
and and how to adapt form fordifferent situations and
(13:44):
intentions.
SPEAKER_02 (13:46):
Well, I would say um that you're so right.
And what I want to congratulateyou on is getting that melon
fellowship.
You have to be a smart cookie towin that.
Melon on grants and been up withthe board when they're
discussing uh what they want,what they want you to achieve.
(14:09):
And they're tough.
They're tough, but they'rereally generous with their money
when you are talented.
So congratulations on that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (14:21):
So let's go to chapter four, because I like
that where you get into thetheme and the purpose and
intention.
That's one of my favorite words.
What is your intention with thisfilm?
So share some of chapter fourwith us, please.
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Yeah, you know, when I was uh teaching in my earlier
years, I remember um we did asurvey of the students, um, and
it was asking them about youknow different elements of
storytelling and theme was thisthing that we just found over
and over again, was somethingthat was really hard for
(14:59):
students to grasp.
It's not it's not a verytangible concept.
I think we all are familiar withthe universality of themes, you
know, love or grief or um orsorrow, but how you make it
(15:19):
tangible in a story uh reallybecomes the question.
And so I I really try andexpress this idea of how theme
is something that needs to braidall of the other story elements
together.
You know, when you're whenyou're asking about, you know,
why people are doing things inthe story, it really needs to
(15:41):
come back to theme.
And I think when when I look atpurpose and intention, it's
really asking questions aroundthe how and what it is you're
you're really trying to do foryour audience or cause them to
do or inspire them to do.
And that really starts toreshape um, you know, how you
(16:05):
get to tell that story in whatform and you know what what
impact and effect do you want itto have.
SPEAKER_02 (16:13):
What impact, yes, that's very important.
Stay focused on that.
And in chapter five, you want tofind meaning in structure.
So tell us why this isimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
Yeah, it's uh definitely one of my favorite
chapters in the book.
Uh, there's a there's an old,very short quote by Sid Field,
which basically says,screenplays are all about
structure.
Yeah.
And I really wanted to explorehow I've always felt that
(16:49):
writing a screenplay uh is abouthaving mastery of all the other
literary forms.
Um, you know, as a chapter in mybook, it's it's uh it's
interesting because I had uhsome early readers who read it
and were expecting a lot of verytraditional approaches.
(17:12):
Um and I was like, oh, that'stotally not what I want.
And so I rewrote the wholechapter, you know, because
because I really wanted it to beabout how structure is also very
personal and how we have toallow existing uh structures
(17:32):
that are in the story to allowuh to allow that story to unfold
in that way, and that weshouldn't always be trying to
push the form onto it.
You know, it's you know,sometimes three-ac structure
isn't the way, sometimes four-acstructure isn't the way.
(17:52):
Sometimes with a short, youknow, you really have to see
what the short itself is sayingabout the structure that it
wants to become and to followthat.
And that can be uncomfortable,yeah.
Uh, but can be um veryrewarding.
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
My gosh, that's most unique.
Good for you.
Okay, let's go to what elementsmust be present in a successful
short film screenplay,regardless of the genre.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
I think that's the unexpected, the unpredictable,
the novel.
Um, you know, I think shortfilms are about um doing
something that people haven'tseen before.
I hope my book is remindingthose who are reading it that
the boundaries can be moved.
(18:49):
So let's move them.
You know, the the part of thetitle of the book is writing
tools to free your imagination.
And that's, you know, I thinkthat's what people look for in a
short, you know, how how are youdoing something that we haven't
seen before?
You know, how how how is itreally coming off the page?
Um, how is it refreshing andnew?
SPEAKER_02 (19:13):
Okay, now let's go to chapter 11, where you cover
notes on production, becausemost short filmmakers have to
produce their own films, and youstart there with great advice
for the producer.
You ask them what are the topgoals and intentions for this
film?
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Yeah, my big question in that chapter is
about resources.
What are your resources?
And that filmmakers really haveto think hard about that.
I think there's so many waysthat we dismiss the resources
(19:53):
that are around us.
Um, and that you have to kind oflook hard at these things that
you may be taking for granted.
I think being a great produceris uh akin to thinking of
yourself as kind of ananthropologist of sorts, and
that you're looking at the timelife of your film, you're
(20:16):
looking at its present, itspast, its future, and you're
looking at its relationship toindustry, society, and culture.
Um, and so, you know, when whenyou're producing that film, it's
always going to be back to uh goback to this question of what
are the resources across thistimeline?
(20:39):
You know, how will it have alife in the future for the
future to come?
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
You know, Casavetes was the first one that really
did that.
He's the father of independentfilms in my book, because when
he did the Chinese bookie film,um that was a club that uh one
of his students had, who was anactor, so he had an acting group
(21:09):
going at the same time.
And he used the acting groupactors as a valuable tool.
They were in his movies, andthen he said, What have we got
here?
Oh, we have a nightclub, okay.
And he wrote a script around thenightclub and the actor, and uh
that's uh the killing of theChinese booking.
(21:30):
It's really a great film.
But this is he was telling allthe other independents use what
you have, write a script, see uhwho's got the house on the beach
you know, and use that, write afilm about the beach and murder
on the beach or something.
That's what you're telling yourshard filmmakers.
(21:52):
This is basic, good filmmakingthinking.
Now, tell us about yourfilmmakers at play summer
workshops.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
Yeah, so uh since the book has come out, we've
done a couple of workshops withdifferent nonprofits and
libraries and organizations, um,some collectives, and I've
always wanted to be able tooffer these workshops, you know,
outside of these organizationsto do something online that's
(22:25):
really accessible across thecountry, uh beyond for sure.
So uh we're offering a series ofworkshops, everything from
screenwriting to directing tobudgeting and producing.
Um and I think we have twoworkshops, I think, every month
(22:49):
in the summer.
So yeah, so two in June, two inJuly, and two in August.
Um, and and they're all on uhEventbrite.
And we also do postings onInstagram and Facebook uh for
for folks to join.
Yeah, thank you so much forasking about that, Carol.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
Well, tell us how people can.
Reach you.
What is your email, yourFacebook, and how tell us all
that?
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
Yeah, um, Ray at Play at Gmail uh is our uh an
easy way to reach me over email.
You'll also find Ray at Play onInstagram.
Um, and uh I think alsoLinkedIn.
Um there's let me see, and alsoon Instagram.
(23:40):
My personal handle is also RayShaw Filmmaker, so you can find
me and um any of those workshopson any of those uh social media
platforms, and then in terms ofwebsites, there's uh theshort.co
and there's also ray atplay.com, and you'll also find
(24:01):
information about thoseworkshops there.
SPEAKER_02 (24:03):
Terrific.
Okay.
Now let's get back into the filmworld.
So, what are some of the some ofthe most common mistakes that
you see filmmakers make duringthe development and production
of their short films?
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
The number one thing I see is usually shooting before
they're ready.
Uh and uh that can look a lot ofdifferent ways.
You know, some sometimes it'sproduction things, but mostly
it's about story.
Um and, you know, I thinksometimes people are rushing to
(24:42):
get the film done, and Iunderstand that pressure.
It's it's always so difficulttrying to gather everything
together, but you know, it'sabout the story at the end of
the day, you know, so much aboutthe story and the writing, and
you know, and really having anunderstanding that it's a
literary document, but that it'salso a blueprint, too, you know,
(25:06):
and things like punctuationmatter, you know, because
performers have to read it andthey have to understand.
Um, the crew has to understandfrom what they're reading, what
they're trying to create.
And I uh I just really love howum I'm I'm a um uh someone who's
(25:27):
really into genre stuff,especially horror.
And I was uh just at a Bay Areabook fair, and they were they
had uh Stephen Graham Jones andTanner Reeve Dew talking about
their work.
And when someone asked aboutrecommendations, I was so
thrilled to just listen to themtalking about style books and
(25:50):
poetry, um, you know, as peoplewho are writing screenplays and
fiction.
SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
Wonderful, wonderful.
So, what's a possibility ofdistribution with shorts?
SPEAKER_00 (26:06):
You know, you'll find shorts everywhere.
I've I've always wanted to beinvited at some point to to do a
podcast on how shorts are takingover the world.
Because they're they'reeverywhere.
You know, you'll you'll findshorts on you know regular
platforms like Netflix and Primeand Apple.
(26:29):
You'll find them all over socialmedia, Instagram, Snapchat,
TikTok, you know, but YouTube isjust becoming this amazing
center, um, you know, that hasthe best principles of
monetization.
Um, you know, if you want toself-distribute, you know, and
and I don't I think peopledidn't even realize um that
(26:53):
Google just kind of quietly overthe last year, you know, added a
subheading with their searchesthat's that's shorts.
It's just it's just its own tabnow is shorts, you know.
So um there's YouTube, there'sVimeo, those are some really uh
(27:14):
common platforms that a lot ofindependent filmmakers use.
And you know, I think they bothhave so many tools that are
really designed to createsustainability.
Um, I think the other thing thatpeople don't really know so much
about uh YouTube and Vimeo isthat they're trying to become
(27:35):
like these little mini studioswhere they host other uh
platforms and channels.
Um so like YouTube has Nownessand um different channels like
that, and then Vimeo hasspecialized video essay
(27:55):
platforms like Film Scapel andIn Transition.
So it's uh it's it's a reallyinteresting space that's bigger
than I think that we realize.
We just kind of take them forgranted.
SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
Oh um, listen, Disney doesn't.
I mean, YouTube is outpacingDisney, they're getting more
traffic.
Could you ever imagine that?
I mean, smart cookies.
Yes.
So, okay, let's talk aboutfunding because that sometimes
could be a challenge.
I see as a sponsor forfilmmakers making charts, the
(28:34):
money is coming from theirbrother, sister, uncle, aunt,
best pals, you know, and what isso wonderful is it comes in a
hundred dollar checks or fivethousand dollar checks.
But it's all heartfelt.
You see that, uh, because whenthey write the checks out and
(28:55):
then they put this is for myfriend short film, so and so,
and uh there's a love there,there's a support as effort.
There is, yeah.
How did you fund your films,right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
You know, uh I have a section in the book that's
called Making It Work, whichdraws from what you were just
talking about in terms ofsponsorships and kind donations,
all of those things, you know,grandmom's cooking, all of those
things.
Um, so yes, so I agree with allof that.
(29:39):
Um, I have also, yes, been ableto draw from some of those
resources in the past.
So, you know, sponsorships andkind donations, crowdfunding.
Um, I think, I think as aprofessor, I have also benefited
from just becoming a reallystrong grant writer.
(30:01):
I've been writing grants.
Um, gosh, I think ever since Ireally just graduated film
school and academia has reallyjust helped me to write better
and more connective and cohesivegrants.
Um, you know, I I thinkfilmmakers have to take all of
(30:22):
that into account and reallyjust think about, again, you
know, what resources do I havethat I'm sort of taking for
granted that can help me to makemy film?
I think the one great thing thathas happened that is a huge
change is the accessibility to acamera.
You know, now with cameraphones, you know, that is not so
(30:46):
much a problem anymore.
And, you know, it really puts umthe possibility and the
accessibility of making a filmin so many people's hands now.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
Absolutely, because so many people are watching
films on their cam on theirphones, that it doesn't matter
that you don't have the topcamera.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (31:12):
Um, okay, so now you talked about the grandmother
cooking for you.
See, this is what I find thatfilmmakers forget they need more
than money.
They need people who have nomoney but lots of time to help
them with research, withmarketing, posting online,
finding somebody to do all theposting on a social network for
(31:35):
you, and then giving them a uhsocial networking credit in the
film is very effective.
And finding somebody who's agood cook who will cook the
lunches or the breakfast, theseare all fun things, right?
And save money.
Yes.
(31:56):
Well, let's talk about umnonprofit organizations uh
helping filmmakers move from ashort film idea to a completed
project and giving the donor uhthe write-off.
What is your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (32:14):
Yeah, I think that uh, you know, nonprofit
organizations can help shortfilmmakers in many ways.
I'm, you know, whether it'ssomeone who's a sponsor or uh
offering funds through uh theircompany or their or their
(32:35):
individual sponsorships, it's Ithink those are absolutely on
board and um can really help inthe making of a project.
I think I think one of the bestthings that organizations can do
to help filmmakers, however, thethe one thing I would I think
(32:58):
can make a real difference isallowing filmmakers to make the
choice of whether the film isgoing to be a short or a
feature.
I think so many times I see alot of organizations when
they're offering funds orsponsorships, they really try
and ask filmmakers to qualify,whether it's a feature or a
short.
(33:18):
Um, and I and I think thoselines are getting more more
blurred um through digitalmedia.
So I think I think being able toleave that door open more times,
I I think can be really helpfulto filmmakers.
SPEAKER_02 (33:37):
I totally agree with you.
And a short is anything under 40minutes, right?
That's how you classify it.
Yes.
Yes.
And 40 minutes to me is aperfect link for a film where
you have a community-based uhfeedback group where you go in
(33:59):
with the questions, you hadeverybody outlines and their
discussions, and it could be onovercoming grief, or so many
people are working on thingsabout grief, or uh how do you
achieve success after somedisaster in your life?
Uh, and all these things seem tobe important to filmmakers.
(34:23):
So a 40-minute film or a30-minute film is not only more
saleable, but it is a perfectlink for a community discussion.
Have you?
SPEAKER_00 (34:39):
Oh, uh, can you say that one more time, Carol?
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (34:43):
Yes.
Have are you finding that uhfilms that are um 30 or 40
minutes are great to use forcommunity discussion groups?
In other words, let's say thefilm is about loss or overcoming
grief, and uh you're workingwith people who have experienced
(35:05):
that or are dealing with it, andyou can use your short film
along with uh uh a feedbackgroup that talks after the film
about how to use the filmcontent to better their lives.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
Yeah, I think that um shorts that are made for the
community and uh align with someof the principles or the
missions um of those nonprofitorganizations, uh I I think
that's happening a lot more now.
(35:42):
I think it's happened in thepast too, but I I definitely
feel like we're seeing we'reseeing that occur more.
And and I think the for thelonger short films, I absolutely
agree with you that it's it's amuch better space um for there
to be a discussion, uh, forthere to be education, um, for
(36:06):
there to be illumination, um,and and really just exploring a
lot of the ideas.
You know, longer shorts areharder to get into film
festivals because it means thatyou're giving up the number of
shorts for this one big short.
But these kinds of um in-personor online discussions are
(36:31):
perfect for that kind ofsituation and scenario where the
the nonprofit can really talkabout the issue in a way um uh
where the community canparticipate and really engage
with the ideas and the conceptsin the short film to really
(36:52):
create movements and um uh andgenerate support in really
powerful ways.
SPEAKER_02 (36:59):
Oh, wonderful.
All right, now let's uh you haveextensive experience as a
curator and an archivist.
So what trends are you seeing inshort filmmaking that excite
you?
SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
Well, I know we were we were talking about verticals.
Yes, it's that verticals goahead.
SPEAKER_02 (37:27):
Sorry.
I I talked to a woman who is anexpert, she's making a lot of
verticals, and she said fiftymillion views is a bad film.
You have done a poor job.
(37:47):
That's hilarious.
Yeah, um, but so for filmmakersfrom underrepresented
communities, how can short filmsbecome powerful to uh tools for
telling stories?
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
Yeah, I think that filmmakers of color, um,
filmmakers from diversebackgrounds, I think they're
coming to a phase where they'reno longer, we are no longer
asking for permission.
Um and are really just takingthe tools and making films with
(38:31):
whatever resources that we have.
I mean, you know, I I think thisthe time that we're in now,
we're just we're seeing so somany people who have done that
in the past and are doing itmore in the future.
Um, you know, I you know,definitely thinking about the
Issa Rays and the QuintaBrunsons and you know what they
(38:53):
were able to do with shortcontent on social media and
YouTube, you know, but also umfilmmakers like Jen Nikuru and
Nuatama Bodomo, Cecile Mike, youknow, who are also doing things
for museums and um, you know,have their work on YouTube on
(39:16):
some of these specializedchannels.
Uh, you know, the the short isreally just um a space where I
see so many filmmakers justreally telling their stories,
their political stories, theirpassion stories, you know, the
the the things that areimportant to them, the things
that are happening in the worldright now.
(39:39):
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
Wonderful.
That's wonderful.
So the last question if afilmmaker listening today could
take away just one lesson fromthe short, what would you want
that to be?
SPEAKER_00 (39:56):
I think I think the thing that I was always told
when I was starting out in thefilmmaker, um that rule has not
changed.
And that rule is make the filmthat no one else can make.
That that I think is still wherewe are.
(40:18):
And so I I you know I encourageeveryone who's thinking about
making a film or hasn't made onein a while.
You know, I tell my students,just just keep making, just keep
making the films.
You will you will learn so much,you will always get better.
And to remember that it's thatit's really all about the
(40:39):
process, you know, enjoy it,have fun, explore, experiment,
you know, and and you'll findyour way, you'll find your
visual language, you'll findyour style.
And I think that's that's whatwe're seeing today is that so
many um filmmakers, you know,with uh the back rooms and
(41:01):
obsession, you know, we're we'rereally finding out that
filmmakers who keep making, youknow, they they're able to find
their way into a career.
SPEAKER_02 (41:13):
Into their career, absolutely.
Ray, thank you so much forsharing your wisdom, your
experience, and your passion forshort filmmaking.
Your book, The Short, reminds usthat short films are not merely
smaller versions of featurefilms, they are powerful
(41:33):
storytelling vehicles, andthey're capable of creating
profound emotional impact,launching careers, and giving
voice to stories that deserve tobe told.
So we encourage our listeners topick up a copy of The Short and
continue exploring the creativepossibilities of short form
(41:56):
storytelling.
This book is available onAmazon.
So join us again next week foranother inspiring conversation
with filmmakers and industryprofessionals who are helping
shape the future ofstorytelling.
So thank you for being with us,Ray and Claire.
(42:17):
And thank you for the knowledgethat you shared with us.
We really appreciate your yourum total dedication to
filmmakers, Ray.
SPEAKER_00 (42:29):
Thank you so much, Carol.
How do you make an award-winning short film?
Well, that's the question we'recovering today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Hello, everyone, and so glad you could join us for
this special class and podcastpresentation.
I'm Claire Papan, co-producer ofthis series, and I'm delighted
to be here with my colleague,Carol Dean, writer, producer,
founder of From the HeartProductions, and one of the film
(01:44):
industry's most dedicatedadvocates for independent
filmmakers.
Today we're joined by anextraordinary guest whose work
has been transforming the way wethink about storytelling,
representation, and the art ofshort filmmaking.
Ray Shaw is a black femalewriter-director whose work
(02:06):
expands the boundaries of howblack women see themselves and
are seen in the world.
Through her films andscreenplays, she creates
multi-dimensional stories thatchallenge stereotypes and
celebrate authenticity,vulnerability, and imagination.
(02:27):
Her award-winning screenplayshave earned recognition in
prestigious internationalscreenwriting competitions, and
her films have screened at majorfestivals.
Ray is also a respectedfilmmaker, shorts curator,
script archivist, and educator.
(02:49):
She's received numerousfellowships, including Mellon
and ITBS Diversity DevelopmentFund Fellowships, and currently
teaches in the School of Cinemaat San Francisco State
University.
Today we'll be discussing heracclaimed book, The Short,
(03:09):
published by Michael WeeseeProductions.
Whether you're an emergingfilmmaker, an experienced
storyteller, or simply curiousabout the power of short films,
Ray's Insights offer practicalguidance on writing, developing,
producing, funding, andmaximizing the impact of short
(03:33):
form storytelling.
And Carol, Michael Weezy is yourpublisher too, right?
SPEAKER_02 (03:39):
Yes, I get to work with Michael Weezy.
He has the best books forfilmmakers.
And welcome, Ray.
We're thrilled to have you withus.
SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Thank you so much, Carol and Claire.
I'm so thrilled to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (03:53):
Great.
Okay, so let's get started.
I want to know what inspired youto write the short and what gap
did you see in filmmakingeducation that needed to be
filled?
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
Well, you know, first I want to say that when I
met Michael and connected withhim, he was really interested in
my short work.
He really liked that I'd doneexperimental films, a trailer,
some narrative work.
And so I think it really startedthere.
(04:30):
And once I was on board andstarted writing the book, then I
was really interested in how canI write a book for my students?
We never have enough time in theclassroom.
And so I really was thinkingabout them and how I could
create a book that was a lotmore accessible and that leveled
(04:55):
the playing field forfilmmakers, whatever their
backgrounds.
I really was interested inseeing a uh a short by David
Lynch next to a short fromsomeone that everyone doesn't
know.
Um, like uh there's a reallygreat French film that's about a
(05:18):
cockroach.
And, you know, those two filmsare um, you know, are in
relationship and conversationwith each other.
But in the industry, you know,we would put someone like David
Lynch on a pedestal and notthink about um, you know, this
(05:39):
this other filmmaker uh who wasum uh uh able to get some grants
from the Doha uh Institute.
And and I think also for thebook, I was really interested in
creating a space of yeses and anindustry of no's.
(06:03):
You know, films are still, yeah,you know, films are still this
place where dreams come aliveevery day.
But I remember, you know, withmy time in the industry, you
know, you there's just so manypeople that are saying, no, you
can't, you can't do this, youcan't do that.
And in my book, I wanted to say,you know, yes, you can and you
(06:27):
will.
SPEAKER_02 (06:29):
Oh, that is so important.
Thank you very much, becauseyou've got to support other
filmmakers.
I don't tell filmmakers uh thehard part because it's a long,
hard road to get a filmmadesometimes.
But if you don't know that, thenyou're more likely to sail
(06:50):
through it, have a wonderfultime, and be quite successful.
That's what they need to hear.
The yes.
So thank you for that.
Now, uh, you describe the shortfilms as their own art form.
I love that.
Rather than most people think ofit as a stepping stone to
features, so why do you thinkthat distinction is so
(07:13):
important?
SPEAKER_00 (07:15):
You know, I love short films because they're not
they're not precious.
Uh, you know, when you approacha short film, there's just an
openness.
And I think the most importantthing is that there's just less
risk.
There's there's more possibilityfor fun, there's more
possibility for play.
(07:36):
The approach is totallydifferent.
There's less to lose, there'sless on the line, you know.
Um, and I um I remember just asan example, thinking about Sean
Baker when he talked about histransition from making tangerine
to the Florida project.
(07:58):
Tangerine is a feature, but hewas making shorts before that.
And I I like to look attangerine as kind of like a long
short because of the the styleand you know, using the phones
and giving the phones to theactors.
And, you know, in some ways, Ilike to think of it as um uh
kind of like an anthology um ofsmall shorts all brought
(08:22):
together to make a feature.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Oh, he's a great filmmaker.
That Florida project is soprecious.
It's the kids.
The kids made it so delightful,I think.
I really love it.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Well, what do you think are thebiggest misconceptions
filmmakers have about makingshort films?
SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
Yes, that is a favorite question.
Uh the thing that I really tryand express in the book that I
think is the big secret is thatpeople have made careers of
short content.
It's kind of a big secret,right?
That uh folks like Spike Lee andWonkar Wai are also making
(09:07):
commercials.
Yes.
Yeah.
And uh there's also music videoscan also be really lucrative,
you know, not to mention uh thesocial media influencers who are
out there.
So, you know, it's it's kind ofthis quiet secret that a lot of
(09:29):
uh strong, independentfilmmakers, you know, they they
do their industry work in shortcontent and then get to make the
films they want to make um fromthose funds.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (09:45):
Right.
Well, uh in your book, TheShort, you discuss the unique
structure of short film.
So tell us, how does writing acompelling short differ from
writing a feature screenplay?
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Yeah, you know, I I think there's something really
magical about shorts that uhthat I just find so attractive.
I love uh Lynn Ramsey's work inparticular.
It's so poetic and dreamy, butyou know, when I think about her
features and her shorts, I feellike, you know, the feature
(10:25):
script is like a it's like adeep dive into an idea, you
know, and um some of the devicesI use with my students is uh,
you know, trying to think of umthe subplots of a feature film
as kind of like branches of atree.
Um, but a short script is uhmore like a promise.
(10:50):
It's a promise of what's tocome.
It's a wish, it's a dream, it'suh it's an experiment, it's an
exploration.
And I think short films, youknow, they they can come from a
really personal place.
And I think that's that'sreally, really powerful.
You know, there's there's noindustry influence, there's not
(11:12):
like uh um investors involved,all these people that you have
to be accountable to.
You know, the process ofdevelopment, you know, can be as
unique as the person, you know,whether you go to film school or
not, you know, people will usewhatever resources they have
available to them to start tomake it.
(11:33):
And I and I think that's a abeautiful process.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
Yes, it is.
And when it is a personal story,uh I as a grantor, I set up a
short film grant.
I love it, and I love to seewhen it's a personal story
because you know, first of all,it's going to be excellent, and
they have their heart in it.
You know they're going to finishit because it's their material
(12:00):
they're putting together.
Um so I want you to tell us howpeople can use your book to
their greatest advantage.
Start in the beginning and goall the way through it, or can
you pick up and look at anychapter as needed?
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
Yeah, I'm glad you I'm glad you asked that
question.
I do think it's I've written itin a way that you don't have to
go through it chapter by chapterin order.
And I do invite people to kindof peruse and look through it,
you know, kind of like um uh ascript oftentimes, you know,
(12:39):
when when I used to do coverageback in the day, you know,
you're you're always sort ofgoing to the end of the script
and then going to the to themiddle, you know, back to the
beginning before you startreading it.
So so definitely, you know,going to the chapter, um, the
table of contents and looking atthe different chapters, I think
(12:59):
is great.
But I want filmmakers to reallyuse it as um a tool to think
about how to build a career ofstorytelling.
You know, the book is filledwith examples, you know, it
really talks about the landscapeof short content.
It talks about transitions, youknow, how you move from one form
(13:22):
to another.
And more importantly, you know,it really talks about language,
you know, the craft, the craftof how you're putting the words
together to create sounds andimagery.
I think more than anything, thebook is about form, you know,
and and how to adapt form fordifferent situations and
(13:44):
intentions.
SPEAKER_02 (13:46):
Well, I would say um that you're so right.
And what I want to congratulateyou on is getting that melon
fellowship.
You have to be a smart cookie towin that.
Melon on grants and been up withthe board when they're
discussing uh what they want,what they want you to achieve.
(14:09):
And they're tough.
They're tough, but they'rereally generous with their money
when you are talented.
So congratulations on that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (14:21):
So let's go to chapter four, because I like
that where you get into thetheme and the purpose and
intention.
That's one of my favorite words.
What is your intention with thisfilm?
So share some of chapter fourwith us, please.
SPEAKER_00 (14:37):
Yeah, you know, when I was uh teaching in my earlier
years, I remember um we did asurvey of the students, um, and
it was asking them about youknow different elements of
storytelling and theme was thisthing that we just found over
and over again, was somethingthat was really hard for
(14:59):
students to grasp.
It's not it's not a verytangible concept.
I think we all are familiar withthe universality of themes, you
know, love or grief or um orsorrow, but how you make it
(15:19):
tangible in a story uh reallybecomes the question.
And so I I really try andexpress this idea of how theme
is something that needs to braidall of the other story elements
together.
You know, when you're whenyou're asking about, you know,
why people are doing things inthe story, it really needs to
(15:41):
come back to theme.
And I think when when I look atpurpose and intention, it's
really asking questions aroundthe how and what it is you're
you're really trying to do foryour audience or cause them to
do or inspire them to do.
And that really starts toreshape um, you know, how you
(16:05):
get to tell that story in whatform and you know what what
impact and effect do you want itto have.
SPEAKER_02 (16:13):
What impact, yes, that's very important.
Stay focused on that.
And in chapter five, you want tofind meaning in structure.
So tell us why this isimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
Yeah, it's uh definitely one of my favorite
chapters in the book.
Uh, there's a there's an old,very short quote by Sid Field,
which basically says,screenplays are all about
structure.
Yeah.
And I really wanted to explorehow I've always felt that
(16:49):
writing a screenplay uh is abouthaving mastery of all the other
literary forms.
Um, you know, as a chapter in mybook, it's it's uh it's
interesting because I had uhsome early readers who read it
and were expecting a lot of verytraditional approaches.
(17:12):
Um and I was like, oh, that'stotally not what I want.
And so I rewrote the wholechapter, you know, because
because I really wanted it to beabout how structure is also very
personal and how we have toallow existing uh structures
(17:32):
that are in the story to allowuh to allow that story to unfold
in that way, and that weshouldn't always be trying to
push the form onto it.
You know, it's you know,sometimes three-ac structure
isn't the way, sometimes four-acstructure isn't the way.
(17:52):
Sometimes with a short, youknow, you really have to see
what the short itself is sayingabout the structure that it
wants to become and to followthat.
And that can be uncomfortable,yeah.
Uh, but can be um veryrewarding.
SPEAKER_02 (18:11):
My gosh, that's most unique.
Good for you.
Okay, let's go to what elementsmust be present in a successful
short film screenplay,regardless of the genre.
SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
I think that's the unexpected, the unpredictable,
the novel.
Um, you know, I think shortfilms are about um doing
something that people haven'tseen before.
I hope my book is remindingthose who are reading it that
the boundaries can be moved.
(18:49):
So let's move them.
You know, the the part of thetitle of the book is writing
tools to free your imagination.
And that's, you know, I thinkthat's what people look for in a
short, you know, how how are youdoing something that we haven't
seen before?
You know, how how how is itreally coming off the page?
Um, how is it refreshing andnew?
SPEAKER_02 (19:13):
Okay, now let's go to chapter 11, where you cover
notes on production, becausemost short filmmakers have to
produce their own films, and youstart there with great advice
for the producer.
You ask them what are the topgoals and intentions for this
film?
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Yeah, my big question in that chapter is
about resources.
What are your resources?
And that filmmakers really haveto think hard about that.
I think there's so many waysthat we dismiss the resources
(19:53):
that are around us.
Um, and that you have to kind oflook hard at these things that
you may be taking for granted.
I think being a great produceris uh akin to thinking of
yourself as kind of ananthropologist of sorts, and
that you're looking at the timelife of your film, you're
(20:16):
looking at its present, itspast, its future, and you're
looking at its relationship toindustry, society, and culture.
Um, and so, you know, when whenyou're producing that film, it's
always going to be back to uh goback to this question of what
are the resources across thistimeline?
(20:39):
You know, how will it have alife in the future for the
future to come?
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
You know, Casavetes was the first one that really
did that.
He's the father of independentfilms in my book, because when
he did the Chinese bookie film,um that was a club that uh one
of his students had, who was anactor, so he had an acting group
(21:09):
going at the same time.
And he used the acting groupactors as a valuable tool.
They were in his movies, andthen he said, What have we got
here?
Oh, we have a nightclub, okay.
And he wrote a script around thenightclub and the actor, and uh
that's uh the killing of theChinese booking.
(21:30):
It's really a great film.
But this is he was telling allthe other independents use what
you have, write a script, see uhwho's got the house on the beach
you know, and use that, write afilm about the beach and murder
on the beach or something.
That's what you're telling yourshard filmmakers.
(21:52):
This is basic, good filmmakingthinking.
Now, tell us about yourfilmmakers at play summer
workshops.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
Yeah, so uh since the book has come out, we've
done a couple of workshops withdifferent nonprofits and
libraries and organizations, um,some collectives, and I've
always wanted to be able tooffer these workshops, you know,
outside of these organizationsto do something online that's
(22:25):
really accessible across thecountry, uh beyond for sure.
So uh we're offering a series ofworkshops, everything from
screenwriting to directing tobudgeting and producing.
Um and I think we have twoworkshops, I think, every month
(22:49):
in the summer.
So yeah, so two in June, two inJuly, and two in August.
Um, and and they're all on uhEventbrite.
And we also do postings onInstagram and Facebook uh for
for folks to join.
Yeah, thank you so much forasking about that, Carol.
SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
Well, tell us how people can.
Reach you.
What is your email, yourFacebook, and how tell us all
that?
SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
Yeah, um, Ray at Play at Gmail uh is our uh an
easy way to reach me over email.
You'll also find Ray at Play onInstagram.
Um, and uh I think alsoLinkedIn.
Um there's let me see, and alsoon Instagram.
(23:40):
My personal handle is also RayShaw Filmmaker, so you can find
me and um any of those workshopson any of those uh social media
platforms, and then in terms ofwebsites, there's uh theshort.co
and there's also ray atplay.com, and you'll also find
(24:01):
information about thoseworkshops there.
SPEAKER_02 (24:03):
Terrific.
Okay.
Now let's get back into the filmworld.
So, what are some of the some ofthe most common mistakes that
you see filmmakers make duringthe development and production
of their short films?
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
The number one thing I see is usually shooting before
they're ready.
Uh and uh that can look a lot ofdifferent ways.
You know, some sometimes it'sproduction things, but mostly
it's about story.
Um and, you know, I thinksometimes people are rushing to
(24:42):
get the film done, and Iunderstand that pressure.
It's it's always so difficulttrying to gather everything
together, but you know, it'sabout the story at the end of
the day, you know, so much aboutthe story and the writing, and
you know, and really having anunderstanding that it's a
literary document, but that it'salso a blueprint, too, you know,
(25:06):
and things like punctuationmatter, you know, because
performers have to read it andthey have to understand.
Um, the crew has to understandfrom what they're reading, what
they're trying to create.
And I uh I just really love howum I'm I'm a um uh someone who's
(25:27):
really into genre stuff,especially horror.
And I was uh just at a Bay Areabook fair, and they were they
had uh Stephen Graham Jones andTanner Reeve Dew talking about
their work.
And when someone asked aboutrecommendations, I was so
thrilled to just listen to themtalking about style books and
(25:50):
poetry, um, you know, as peoplewho are writing screenplays and
fiction.
SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
Wonderful, wonderful.
So, what's a possibility ofdistribution with shorts?
SPEAKER_00 (26:06):
You know, you'll find shorts everywhere.
I've I've always wanted to beinvited at some point to to do a
podcast on how shorts are takingover the world.
Because they're they'reeverywhere.
You know, you'll you'll findshorts on you know regular
platforms like Netflix and Primeand Apple.
(26:29):
You'll find them all over socialmedia, Instagram, Snapchat,
TikTok, you know, but YouTube isjust becoming this amazing
center, um, you know, that hasthe best principles of
monetization.
Um, you know, if you want toself-distribute, you know, and
and I don't I think peopledidn't even realize um that
(26:53):
Google just kind of quietly overthe last year, you know, added a
subheading with their searchesthat's that's shorts.
It's just it's just its own tabnow is shorts, you know.
So um there's YouTube, there'sVimeo, those are some really uh
(27:14):
common platforms that a lot ofindependent filmmakers use.
And you know, I think they bothhave so many tools that are
really designed to createsustainability.
Um, I think the other thing thatpeople don't really know so much
about uh YouTube and Vimeo isthat they're trying to become
(27:35):
like these little mini studioswhere they host other uh
platforms and channels.
Um so like YouTube has Nownessand um different channels like
that, and then Vimeo hasspecialized video essay
(27:55):
platforms like Film Scapel andIn Transition.
So it's uh it's it's a reallyinteresting space that's bigger
than I think that we realize.
We just kind of take them forgranted.
SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
Oh um, listen, Disney doesn't.
I mean, YouTube is outpacingDisney, they're getting more
traffic.
Could you ever imagine that?
I mean, smart cookies.
Yes.
So, okay, let's talk aboutfunding because that sometimes
could be a challenge.
I see as a sponsor forfilmmakers making charts, the
(28:34):
money is coming from theirbrother, sister, uncle, aunt,
best pals, you know, and what isso wonderful is it comes in a
hundred dollar checks or fivethousand dollar checks.
But it's all heartfelt.
You see that, uh, because whenthey write the checks out and
(28:55):
then they put this is for myfriend short film, so and so,
and uh there's a love there,there's a support as effort.
There is, yeah.
How did you fund your films,right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
You know, uh I have a section in the book that's
called Making It Work, whichdraws from what you were just
talking about in terms ofsponsorships and kind donations,
all of those things, you know,grandmom's cooking, all of those
things.
Um, so yes, so I agree with allof that.
(29:39):
Um, I have also, yes, been ableto draw from some of those
resources in the past.
So, you know, sponsorships andkind donations, crowdfunding.
Um, I think, I think as aprofessor, I have also benefited
from just becoming a reallystrong grant writer.
(30:01):
I've been writing grants.
Um, gosh, I think ever since Ireally just graduated film
school and academia has reallyjust helped me to write better
and more connective and cohesivegrants.
Um, you know, I I thinkfilmmakers have to take all of
(30:22):
that into account and reallyjust think about, again, you
know, what resources do I havethat I'm sort of taking for
granted that can help me to makemy film?
I think the one great thing thathas happened that is a huge
change is the accessibility to acamera.
You know, now with cameraphones, you know, that is not so
(30:46):
much a problem anymore.
And, you know, it really puts umthe possibility and the
accessibility of making a filmin so many people's hands now.
SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
Absolutely, because so many people are watching
films on their cam on theirphones, that it doesn't matter
that you don't have the topcamera.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (31:12):
Um, okay, so now you talked about the grandmother
cooking for you.
See, this is what I find thatfilmmakers forget they need more
than money.
They need people who have nomoney but lots of time to help
them with research, withmarketing, posting online,
finding somebody to do all theposting on a social network for
(31:35):
you, and then giving them a uhsocial networking credit in the
film is very effective.
And finding somebody who's agood cook who will cook the
lunches or the breakfast, theseare all fun things, right?
And save money.
Yes.
(31:56):
Well, let's talk about umnonprofit organizations uh
helping filmmakers move from ashort film idea to a completed
project and giving the donor uhthe write-off.
What is your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (32:14):
Yeah, I think that uh, you know, nonprofit
organizations can help shortfilmmakers in many ways.
I'm, you know, whether it'ssomeone who's a sponsor or uh
offering funds through uh theircompany or their or their
(32:35):
individual sponsorships, it's Ithink those are absolutely on
board and um can really help inthe making of a project.
I think I think one of the bestthings that organizations can do
to help filmmakers, however, thethe one thing I would I think
(32:58):
can make a real difference isallowing filmmakers to make the
choice of whether the film isgoing to be a short or a
feature.
I think so many times I see alot of organizations when
they're offering funds orsponsorships, they really try
and ask filmmakers to qualify,whether it's a feature or a
short.
(33:18):
Um, and I and I think thoselines are getting more more
blurred um through digitalmedia.
So I think I think being able toleave that door open more times,
I I think can be really helpfulto filmmakers.
SPEAKER_02 (33:37):
I totally agree with you.
And a short is anything under 40minutes, right?
That's how you classify it.
Yes.
Yes.
And 40 minutes to me is aperfect link for a film where
you have a community-based uhfeedback group where you go in
(33:59):
with the questions, you hadeverybody outlines and their
discussions, and it could be onovercoming grief, or so many
people are working on thingsabout grief, or uh how do you
achieve success after somedisaster in your life?
Uh, and all these things seem tobe important to filmmakers.
(34:23):
So a 40-minute film or a30-minute film is not only more
saleable, but it is a perfectlink for a community discussion.
Have you?
SPEAKER_00 (34:39):
Oh, uh, can you say that one more time, Carol?
Sorry.
SPEAKER_02 (34:43):
Yes.
Have are you finding that uhfilms that are um 30 or 40
minutes are great to use forcommunity discussion groups?
In other words, let's say thefilm is about loss or overcoming
grief, and uh you're workingwith people who have experienced
(35:05):
that or are dealing with it, andyou can use your short film
along with uh uh a feedbackgroup that talks after the film
about how to use the filmcontent to better their lives.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
Yeah, I think that um shorts that are made for the
community and uh align with someof the principles or the
missions um of those nonprofitorganizations, uh I I think
that's happening a lot more now.
(35:42):
I think it's happened in thepast too, but I I definitely
feel like we're seeing we'reseeing that occur more.
And and I think the for thelonger short films, I absolutely
agree with you that it's it's amuch better space um for there
to be a discussion, uh, forthere to be education, um, for
(36:06):
there to be illumination, um,and and really just exploring a
lot of the ideas.
You know, longer shorts areharder to get into film
festivals because it means thatyou're giving up the number of
shorts for this one big short.
But these kinds of um in-personor online discussions are
(36:31):
perfect for that kind ofsituation and scenario where the
the nonprofit can really talkabout the issue in a way um uh
where the community canparticipate and really engage
with the ideas and the conceptsin the short film to really
(36:52):
create movements and um uh andgenerate support in really
powerful ways.
SPEAKER_02 (36:59):
Oh, wonderful.
All right, now let's uh you haveextensive experience as a
curator and an archivist.
So what trends are you seeing inshort filmmaking that excite
you?
SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
Well, I know we were we were talking about verticals.
Yes, it's that verticals goahead.
SPEAKER_02 (37:27):
Sorry.
I I talked to a woman who is anexpert, she's making a lot of
verticals, and she said fiftymillion views is a bad film.
You have done a poor job.
(37:47):
That's hilarious.
Yeah, um, but so for filmmakersfrom underrepresented
communities, how can short filmsbecome powerful to uh tools for
telling stories?
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
Yeah, I think that filmmakers of color, um,
filmmakers from diversebackgrounds, I think they're
coming to a phase where they'reno longer, we are no longer
asking for permission.
Um and are really just takingthe tools and making films with
(38:31):
whatever resources that we have.
I mean, you know, I I think thisthe time that we're in now,
we're just we're seeing so somany people who have done that
in the past and are doing itmore in the future.
Um, you know, I you know,definitely thinking about the
Issa Rays and the QuintaBrunsons and you know what they
(38:53):
were able to do with shortcontent on social media and
YouTube, you know, but also umfilmmakers like Jen Nikuru and
Nuatama Bodomo, Cecile Mike, youknow, who are also doing things
for museums and um, you know,have their work on YouTube on
(39:16):
some of these specializedchannels.
Uh, you know, the the short isreally just um a space where I
see so many filmmakers justreally telling their stories,
their political stories, theirpassion stories, you know, the
the the things that areimportant to them, the things
that are happening in the worldright now.
(39:39):
Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:41):
Wonderful.
That's wonderful.
So the last question if afilmmaker listening today could
take away just one lesson fromthe short, what would you want
that to be?
SPEAKER_00 (39:56):
I think I think the thing that I was always told
when I was starting out in thefilmmaker, um that rule has not
changed.
And that rule is make the filmthat no one else can make.
That that I think is still wherewe are.
(40:18):
And so I I you know I encourageeveryone who's thinking about
making a film or hasn't made onein a while.
You know, I tell my students,just just keep making, just keep
making the films.
You will you will learn so much,you will always get better.
And to remember that it's thatit's really all about the
(40:39):
process, you know, enjoy it,have fun, explore, experiment,
you know, and and you'll findyour way, you'll find your
visual language, you'll findyour style.
And I think that's that's whatwe're seeing today is that so
many um filmmakers, you know,with uh the back rooms and
(41:01):
obsession, you know, we're we'rereally finding out that
filmmakers who keep making, youknow, they they're able to find
their way into a career.
SPEAKER_02 (41:13):
Into their career, absolutely.
Ray, thank you so much forsharing your wisdom, your
experience, and your passion forshort filmmaking.
Your book, The Short, reminds usthat short films are not merely
smaller versions of featurefilms, they are powerful
(41:33):
storytelling vehicles, andthey're capable of creating
profound emotional impact,launching careers, and giving
voice to stories that deserve tobe told.
So we encourage our listeners topick up a copy of The Short and
continue exploring the creativepossibilities of short form
(41:56):
storytelling.
This book is available onAmazon.
So join us again next week foranother inspiring conversation
with filmmakers and industryprofessionals who are helping
shape the future ofstorytelling.
So thank you for being with us,Ray and Claire.
(42:17):
And thank you for the knowledgethat you shared with us.
We really appreciate your yourum total dedication to
filmmakers, Ray.
SPEAKER_00 (42:29):
Thank you so much, Carol.
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