This is a revolution to budget making. If you want to learn how to budget your film with the newest program that will save you hours and be accurate, listen to these two brilliant, intelligent line producers Stephen Marinaccio & Matthew Cuny, Co-Founders of Cinematic Apps who took years to create and share this new way to budget your film.
Learn More!
Line Budgeter: linebudgeter.com
LinePM: line.pm
Art of Film Funding listeners can use code filmfunding10 for 10% off.
Join our new educational platform From the Heart THRIVE and get free classes on film funding: https://fromtheheartproductions.thrivecart.com/from-the-heart-thrive/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (01:16):
What if the single most dreaded part of filmmaking,
the budget, could actuallybecome your greatest creative
advantage?
Well, stay with us because bythe end of this episode, you
will never look at a budget thesame way again.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
So glad you could join us on the Art of Film
Funding podcast.
I'm Claire Papin, and I'm proudto serve as co-producer of this
podcast alongside the remarkableCarol Dean, founder of From the
Heart Productions and author ofThe Independent Filmmaker's
Essential Guide.
The Art of Film Funding SecondEdition.
(01:59):
Every week, Carol and I bringyou the people, the ideas, and
the tools that help filmmakersnot just dream their dreams, but
actually make them.
And today we have two guests whoare doing something this
industry has been waitingdecades for.
Let me introduce them properly,because their stories matter.
(02:23):
Stephen Marinaccio is a veteranproducer with over 35 years of
experience working on globalfeature films and television.
He's worked in more than 30countries from diving to the
wreck of the Titanic as unitproduction manager under James
(02:44):
Cameron on Ghosts of the Abyssto serving as the lead UPM on
Netflix's Marco Polo.
He's also the creator of thefilm TV budgeting community on
Reddit, a space where producersshare real unfiltered knowledge
(03:05):
about the business ofproduction.
Matthew Cooney is a producer,head of production at Bix Pix
Entertainment, and a 20-yearveteran of both live action and
animation.
He's overseen more than$70million in production budgets.
(03:26):
What makes Matthew uniquelypositioned to build the future
of this industry is his rarecombination of deep production
experience and an earlybackground in streaming
technology.
He thinks like a producer.
And together, Stephen andMatthew founded Cinematic App.
(03:48):
And on March 4th of 2026, theylaunched their flagship product,
Line Budgeter.
It's the first modern end-to-endbudgeting platform built by
working producers who weresimply done waiting for someone
else to fix the tools.
And Carol, I know you want tolearn all you can about the
(04:11):
benefits of cinematic apps.
SPEAKER_03 (04:14):
Absolutely, Claire.
And we sincerely appreciate bothof you joining us, Stephen and
Matthew.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thank you.
We appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03 (04:25):
Good.
Well, let's get started.
Uh what's the origin story?
Um, you both had extraordinarycareers at the top of the
industry.
So what was the moment, thespecific breaking point when you
looked at each other and said,we have to build something
better ourselves?
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
Well, um I can remember it vividly because I
had been working in the legacytools and um one morning I
lifted or had gone to bed thenight before while budgeting the
show, and I had closed the lidto my laptop and walked away
like I normally do, and then Ireturned to my desk the next
morning and lifted the lid to mylaptop, and all my budgets were
(05:09):
gone.
And I wasn't able to recoverthem, and it was uh because of
legacy tools.
And I had been, you know, justlike many producers, frustrated
with uh working in the toolsthat we had, and I uh had
reached out to a friend justlamenting about the issue, and
basically he's like, Oh, you youshould talk to Steven.
(05:31):
Steven's been wanting to dosomething like that, and so I'm
like, I don't know, he's a busyguy.
And so I sent him an email, andlike 12 minutes later, Steven
responded, like, I'm in.
And so then we basically had acouple meetings, decided that we
uh had to do something about it,and took a full year to kind of
RD everything out.
It's not just like, hey, wecould just make what we have
(05:52):
prettier and better and and andcall it a day, but it really
came down to like what we'vebeen working in, the tools we've
had.
It was designed around aworkflow that's 30 years old,
and the workflow that we allhave is dramatically changed.
And so we basically, you know,at that moment we're like, we
have to think about what thenext 10, 15, 20, 30 years is
(06:14):
going to be and have the toolsthat producers need available to
them.
SPEAKER_03 (06:20):
Exactly.
Thank you very much for that.
I'm so happy that the two of yougot together because you're
revolutionizing the budget.
So, Matthew, you've said thatproducers are using tools built
in the 1990s.
So, for our listeners, many ofthem have been on their first or
their second film.
(06:41):
So, can you describe in plainterms what a producer's typical
budgeting day looks like withthe old system?
And what does that pain feellike now that you have the new
system?
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Absolutely.
Uh, the pain, I don't think wecan all ever really forget it.
It's it's kind of like a PTSD ofproduction.
Um, most producers are stillbuilding budgets from old
template files, and um, youreshape them for every new
project and um kind of basharound the data to uh you know
fit it for what your your yournew project is.
(07:16):
And um, so you spend a lot oftime manually forcing that data
into these tools that were neverreally designed for how
productions work, especiallytoday.
And um we spend we end upspending or using separate tools
for for cash flow, incentives,schedules, notes, and approvals,
but none of them talk to eachother.
So a lot of time gets spentupdating that information in all
(07:37):
those different places andchecking versions and making
sure nobody's working on olddata, or you unfortunately find
out somebody's been usingsomething that's two weeks out
of date.
Um, and so the the bigger issueis the production has changed,
but our tools haven't.
And producers are being expectedto be cheaper, better, and
faster while our toolboxesremain the same.
And so, you know, we feelproducers should not have to
(07:58):
spend more time managing theirtools and data than managing the
production.
SPEAKER_03 (08:03):
Absolutely.
All right.
Well, let's talk about whatyou've built.
So tell us about cinematic appsand your platform, uh, and
specifically, what is the linebudgeter and how does it change
that painful experience that youdescribed?
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Well, we we're building a platform that we call
Line PM for line productionmanagement, and line budgeters
the first major piece of ourplatform.
So we we chose to start with thebudget because all productions
kind of start with the money.
And so um you know, our ourplatform we've launched in in
early March, and um, sobasically it gives producers and
(08:44):
production teams a modern way tobuild and manage budgets without
relying on those old tempo filesand disconnected workflows.
Um you can create better budgetsfaster, you can model changes,
work with ratebooks andincentives directly in your
budget, generate cash flow outof your budget, share your
budgets with other people inreal time, and it keeps teams
closer to the latest version andon the same page.
(09:06):
Um, our philosophy, like I saida few minutes ago, wasn't to
just make like a prettierversion of the older tools.
We wanted to rethink theworkflow from the ground up and
based on how working producersare actually building, revising,
and managing budgets under thereal production pressure of
today.
Um, and so the goal is to makethe budget a living, connected
part of production and not astatic file everyone has to keep
fixing.
SPEAKER_03 (09:28):
Wonderful.
Well, one of the things thatreally surprised me in my
research was the concept offramework budgets.
Uh, this is not a template.
Can you explain what a frameworkbudget is and how it works and
why this approach is sodifferent from what producers
have been stuck with?
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
Sure.
I'll I'll add to that.
As Matt said earlier, in legacyapplications, the user is forced
to open that template file orsome other version of a budget
that they've done in the past asthat starting point.
And uh this starts the budgetingprocess on an inefficient
footing.
Uh, people are making budgets.
Um, the the people that aremaking the budgets are very
(10:11):
expensive data entry people.
And to take that time to rebashan old file into a working
version for this project, youhave to pay them a lot of their
valuable time to undo and redoall that work.
So our budget builder systemcreates a clean and fresh
starting point for yourbudgeting uh needs of your
(10:32):
project, specifically built withthe the elements and the needs
of your show.
And we call this the framework,and it's your starting point.
So now you can focus on buildingyour budget from there, not uh
dealing with fixing a lot ofstuff from the past to make it
work in this new project.
SPEAKER_03 (10:50):
Oh, that's much better.
So um good.
Now let's get into thispre-flight checklist because
that's a great name.
You built um this one, this oneinto the line budgeter with over
4,600 topics and growing.
That is extraordinary.
(11:11):
So, what is the pre-flightchecklist and what does it do
for a producer who may not evenknow what they don't know yet?
SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
We one of the core philosophies,I'll tell I'll tell you, is that
when Matt and I sat down and wegot together and we said, let's
make something better, um, wedidn't want to just make
something different and better.
We also wanted to help thecommunity, right?
So the in doing budgets, we'reoften sort of alone and we're
just doing it on our own.
(11:44):
Yes, we have some input fromproducers or directors, but um
we we are pretty much justsitting in a room smashing
numbers into a uh a program, butuh, and there's no help for
that.
There's there's not necessarilya camaraderie between us, the
people that do that.
So we wanted to also createstuff inside of our application
that's helpful for those peopledoing things.
(12:05):
And one of the things is thepre-flight checklist.
So very akin to a pilot checkingthe flight uh the plane before
takeoff.
Uh, we have, as you see, as youmentioned, over 4,600 topics to
help producers make sure thatthey thought through things.
In addition to that, we offer anintegrated rate book for current
pay rates from around the world,a comprehensive tax infringe
(12:27):
library, as well as globalincentive data with over 480
rebate and incentive programs.
So all of these data setsintegrate directly into your
budget, giving producers anessential information that you
need while you're preparing yourbudget.
And specifically, the pre-flightchecklist allows you to go
through a myriad of subjects andopen up that area and take a
(12:50):
look at a bunch of things thatyou might want to think about.
For example, if you have notdone prosthetics for a while or
you've never done prosthetics ona movie, you open up the
pre-flight checklist, go toprosthetics, open it up, and it
will ask you a bunch ofquestions that you might want to
think about, such as have youtalked to the makeup effects
people that um about what kindof application they're using,
(13:12):
potentially actors' skin isallergic to the latex versus
foam, or or the the idea thatyou're using contact lenses and
do you need a lens tech?
All of these things are thingsyou need to think about, and you
might not know to think aboutit.
So this allows you to justremind yourself or learn a
little bit more.
So, again, those subjects arevery wide-ranging uh based on
(13:35):
Matt and I's experience on realfilms around the world.
We just put that all into theapplication to allow you to do
better work.
SPEAKER_03 (13:44):
Oh, that's so smart.
Well, let me ask you about this480 rebates.
So, like if I was uh shooting inIreland and Italy, which are two
hot places now, um, you wouldhave the rebate uh information
available for maybe.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, you open up the uh theincentive tool.
Our incentive engine is verydynamic and and rich with
details on how to manipulate theinformation that you're doing as
far as the costs and such perlocation.
And it allows you to really uhhone down that projected rebate.
But you open up that engine andthere's a library there that you
(14:25):
would open up and take a look,and you go down the list and
find Ireland or Italy orwhatever country you're going
to, and it will uh populate thatwith the different rebate and
incentive programs that areavailable in that area.
Uh, and then you can start fromuh a good starting point rather
than having to Google it or calla friend of yours and wait
(14:46):
around or try to get a hold of aproduction service company
local.
You can get started moving downthat track much easier and
faster.
And of course, you're going todouble check everything.
Things change.
Maybe a local production servicecompany knows a little extra
that you didn't realize.
But all of that stuff is is inthe program, allowing you to
work faster and and moreaccurately from the get-go.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
Well, how do you do that when you're here in America
and you're helping create abudget for someone who's
shooting in Ireland?
Um, how do you know what thegaffer charges or what the DP
wants?
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
It's a it's a great age-old question.
And uh I fortunately have thatexperience.
I do that all the time.
I my most of my career is a isinternational and not in the
United States.
And this is that age-old thingthat you just need to know what
you're looking for.
And after a while, you get theexperience of who to call.
But if you don't have a Rolodexof production services companies
(15:46):
around the world or friends whoare producers around the world
to just call them and say, Hey,can you send me a rate guide?
The um, the the next best nextbest thing then is again built
into Line Budgeter, we have aratebook library that you can
get access to and it's growing,but we'll have a bunch of rate
books from around the world.
So if you're shooting in Italyor Ireland or Jordan or Thailand
(16:12):
or so forth, you can go thereand get one of those ratebooks
and at least have a goodstarting point.
And all these ratebooks arevetted by locals to make sure
that they're up to date andaccurate as possible.
SPEAKER_03 (16:22):
That's a lot of work.
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
It is.
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
Because you've worked in theindustry for over 30 years, so
you understand better thanalmost anyone how complicated
international rates, labor laws,union rules are.
And so, how does line budgeterhandle the global complexity of
modern production?
SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
So it's a great question.
Obviously, it'll always comeback to the line producer or UPM
that you have working on theproject and their experience and
knowledge.
But working around the world,obviously, every country has
different methods and laws.
Uh as a line producer,understanding how those things
work in a given place affectshow you budget.
So uh from working hours, um,hiring practices, there are many
(17:11):
subjects that affect all thedifferent aspects of hiring
those local crew or how you rentthings.
So, again, one of our tenets inbuilding line budgeter was to
assist in doing that great work.
So, no matter what type ofproject you're doing, we built
in rate books to fully uh, andthen you're you're you're
finally able to assimilate thoserates directly into your budget
(17:34):
from ratebook.
And so, how it helps you in yourinternational work is that it's
giving you a bunch of thatinformation and helpful steps to
make sure that you're thinkingabout what you need to think
about.
Going back to that pre-flightchecklist, there's a whole
section for international work.
You might not know to thinkabout how that local place deals
(17:54):
with lunch breaks, or how dothey deal with um uh gear and
movement, or how do they dealwith if you're shooting not
inside of a major city and youhave to go outside, do they have
uh stipulations for workingnearby?
So all of these things arethings that you need to know.
But in line budgeter, you'reable to manipulate that data
(18:16):
faster and quicker so that youdon't have to deal with all the
monotony of smashing it into asystem that a legacy product
that is just not built to takethat information.
And this overall creates abetter level of efficiency.
SPEAKER_03 (18:32):
Exactly.
Um, because independentpillmakers, especially, are
looking for tax incentives andrebates, and that can make or
break a financing plan and it'sa sales pitch.
I mean, they need to know howmuch of a rebate and how much
money is coming back for theirinvestors.
(18:54):
So, can you walk us through howline budgeter handles incentives
and why the way you built it ismore accurate than anything else
currently out there?
SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
Yeah, as I said before, the um the process of
putting an incentive into abudget is not very accurate when
all you're doing is sort ofgoing to the top sheet and
smashing in 30% and hoping forthe best.
Uh, so our system, as Imentioned earlier, is built on
our really deep analysis ofinternational uh incentives and
(19:29):
rebate programs and how theyactually work.
So the idea of adding floors tomonitor whether or not your
budget is going to achieve thatthreshold to get the incentive,
or the the idea that they mighthave a sub-incentive or a uh an
uplift that allows you to dosomething special with a certain
(19:49):
part of the incentive, forexample, local labor, or maybe
you're shooting outside of azone.
Um, those things are all handledindividually in our incentive
engine, which uh is unique tous, not found in any other
software.
And that detail allows you tomanipulate the data in such a
(20:10):
way to give you accurate uhrebate um projections.
And uh and you can rely on thatwithout having to spend days or
weeks tracking down all theinformation.
Again, you have that library togo to and build your budget um
based on accurate informationand uh the allowance of the
(20:31):
system through its mechanical orits uh its detailed information
of the engine, if you will,behind the scenes to be able to
uh give you an accurate number.
And that's that's the realthing.
Every show out there is chasingan incentive, but there's
different things that you needto think about.
It's not just simply this placeis 30% versus this place is 25.
(20:52):
So we're definitely going toshoot in the 30% place.
There's a lot of things to thinkabout when you're deciding on
that.
So local rates might be lower,or in this other place, gear
isn't even available, so youneed to spend more money.
So all of those things areinside of our system through the
pre-flight checklist or theincentive library, and that
engine allows you to thinkthrough the process a little bit
(21:16):
better and deeper as opposed tojust being thrown into the deep
end of the water and good luck.
SPEAKER_03 (21:22):
Yes, no, this is really important because
sometimes the rebates,particularly if you throw in the
181 and 168 from the UnitedStates, and you're shooting in
Ireland, for example, and US,you you can say, look to your
investors, uh, 50% of the filmis covered through rebates and
(21:45):
gifts from the countries we'reworking in.
And that is a closer.
So those are very importantnumbers.
SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (21:55):
So let's talk about the cash flow feature because
this really stopped me in mytracks.
Line Budgeter is the firstbudgeting program to ever
generate a cash flow documentdirectly from the budget itself.
So, Matthew, why has this neverexisted?
And what does it mean for afilmmaker trying to raise money
(22:19):
or present it to a studio?
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
Um, well, I I think it hasn't existed before because
most of the budgeting tools onthe market were built to
calculate costs and they don'tunderstand how those costs move
through time.
And so they can't output a cashflow because they don't
understand when you need themoney.
So um cash flow depends on thecalendar, your phases, location,
(22:43):
payroll timing, and theassumptions behind a budget.
Um, and so those tools were justnever structured for that.
And with Line Budgeter, we do wewe do track all those things.
You can put your your calendaruh scheduling information into
uh the the budget and basicallyit connects those pieces so that
a cash flow can be generateddirectly from from your budget.
(23:04):
And when we say just generated,it's you can put in that you you
have a person working betweenthese two dates and say that's
just you know.
Over four weeks, and the programwill then know when you need
that money, how much you needeach week, and then therefore,
um, when you make changes, um,it it'll just update
automatically.
Um, and so for filmmakers, it'sit's a huge shift because making
(23:26):
a cash flow is a lot of work.
Number one, you spend a lot oftime making a budget, and then
you go over here and make a cashflow, and then you make changes
to that budget, and then youhave to go do the cash flow
update, and then you do back andforth and back and forth, and
that ends up eating a goodamount of time in prep,
depending on how many revisionsyou have to go through.
(23:47):
And so with Line Budgeter, youcan make those revisions in the
budget and then just with a fewclicks export out a new cash
flow updated with all thosechanges, and so it saves a ton
of time and it gives a realaccurate um projection for when
the money's needed.
So uh it's not really a guessinggame because if if uh a
financier asks you a question oflike, why do you need all this
(24:09):
money right now?
It's not just to say that, like,well, it, you know, I just
divided the money across theweeks and that's what I need.
It's like, no, I have 17 peoplestarting on this day, and I'm
renting this gear, and we alsohave to you know pay the deposit
for this, and you you have allthat information right at your
fingertips.
So it makes it much morepowerful when presenting your
case for financing.
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
And I'd like to add to that too, working
internationally in multiplecountries, you're doing and
studios are asking forfinanciers, are asking for not
just the cash flow for theproject in general, but if you
have to break that cash flowalso into different countries
with different currencies,that's even further an arduous
task.
So, and then as Matt said, youupdate the budget, then you have
(24:53):
to update not just one cashflow, but three or four for
different countries.
Uh, this allows you to then alsoget into the detail of how much
money you need to send to thatcountry because exchange rates
are certain ways.
And so managing that money andmoving it around through
different banks, you now knowwhen you need that money, how
much you need, and you canpre-buy.
(25:14):
It makes that a little bitsimpler as well for accounting.
So um, just the idea of doing acash flow is is one thing, but
now imagine that you have to domultiples for one project
because you're in threedifferent countries.
That's an even worse task to tryto do.
And line budgeter, as Matt said,does it in a couple button
clicks.
SPEAKER_03 (25:33):
Fantastic.
Well, what a lot of filmmakersdon't realize is that you often
have to defend your budget.
Uh, this is something they don'tlike to have to do because you
sometimes investors want to goline by line and say, why, why,
why?
(25:53):
And you have to be able to say,look, I know John at this uh
post house, and this is the bestprice I can get for editing, uh,
et cetera, or uh this isincluding editing and the other
whatever involved.
You have to know, really getclose to your budget and make it
(26:14):
easy to discuss with people uhwho are the investors.
But you once you can do that,you're on your way to funding
your film, trust me.
SPEAKER_00 (26:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, it goes back to secondgrade math school, right?
You teacher would say show yourwork.
And if you're just doing abudget that just has a bunch of
general allowances, that'sharder to defend, as you say.
Um, but if you can show yourwork and and have them
understand how that breaks down,uh you're you're further along
in making sure that they um canaccept the idea that this
(26:48):
project might cost X.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:51):
And your knowledge, it comforts the investor.
The fact you know you created itthrough experience and through
knowledge and through friends inthe internet or universe, our
universe, the film industry,that's when you really feel
good.
When you're talking to someonewho knows the numbers and
(27:14):
they're handling your money, youfeel really comfortable.
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
Let's talk about the real-time collaboration because
today's productions are oftenmulti-city, multi-country, and
even multi-team.
So, how does line budgeterhandle collaboration?
And what does that mean foraccountability and transparency
on a production?
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Well, line budgeter was built for global production
from the start.
Stevens, you know, workedinternationally the entire time
while we developed the tool.
So we basically factored all ofthat into how this tool needed
to work.
So multi-city, multi-country,multi-team, that is the reality
now, and that's how this toolworks.
Instead of passing budget filesaround and hoping everyone has
(28:01):
the latest version, you canwork, um, your team can work
from one shared budget withpermissions and visibility and
clear record of what's changed.
So there's no more, um, let mecheck my email, make sure I have
the latest draft, I'm in thewrong file.
Everyone front and center knowswhich file is the latest one.
You can all work in it togetherno matter where you are in the
(28:22):
world.
Uh that that changesaccountability because the
budget becomes a living sourceof truth instead of a static
file on someone's computer.
And um, because we are designed,uh, the line budget is designed
to hand clean data into existingaccounting and payroll
workflows, teams get more of amodern layer, uh collaboration
layer without having to likethrow away the systems that they
already use.
SPEAKER_03 (28:42):
A living source of truth that is beautiful.
That's wonderful.
So um the data and the reportingpower.
So, Stephen, you said somethingin an interview that I loved.
You said we've been able toanswer questions people didn't
know they were allowed to ask.
(29:05):
So, give our listeners a fewexamples of what that looks like
in practice, the kinds ofinsights a producer can now pull
from their budget instantly.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Sure.
Um, so because Matt and I tookthat time to step back and ask
why things worked the way theywork, uh, we were able to
approach the actual developmentof the software in different
ways.
One aspect would be incentive.
We spoke a little bit aboutthis, but legacy applications
treat incentives as a line onthe top sheet and just blast in
a rebate allowance and calls ita day.
(29:39):
Whereas line budget allows youto dive in deep to the details
of the rebate program that youmight be using and adjust those
nuanced details, which manifestsitself obviously into a more
accurate projection.
Another aspect would be fringes.
Again, we looked around theworld, not just inside the
United States, but around theworld at various uh unions and
(30:02):
uh uh uh governments and howthose actually work.
And um, and we took a look athow to manipulate that data in
better and more efficient ways,and we added different
functionality to allow a betterestimation.
So LineBudgeter offers four orfive more versions of fringing
units beyond the standard thatyou'll find in any other legacy
(30:22):
application, which is justpercentage and fringe.
And I guess one of the lastcall-out I would say is hot
analytics, something we call hotanalytics.
Uh, basically, because we putthe details back into line item
details, um, the way that oursub-accounts categorize data, it
allows a producer to ask crazyquestions that would normally
(30:43):
get eye rolls from accountingand uh take hours to figure out,
right?
So, such as uh how much are wespending in purchases in Paris
during prep on episode four?
That would send accounting intoa tailspin, uh, hours of work on
a side napkin or Excel shedspreadsheets opened up.
Uh so this is all done now inline budget or naturally.
(31:06):
As they're building your budget,it's taking account of all these
things.
Um, and it's not hours and hoursof tedious work afterwards,
grouping that information,hoping that you did it
correctly, you didn't misssomething.
It's it's doing that naturallyas you go.
And now you can know thatinformation now.
SPEAKER_03 (31:25):
Great.
Well, now I want to speak torescue who are listeners because
many of humor making films ahundred thousand or three
hundred thousand, maybe up to amillion dollars.
So is line budgeter for them, oris this a studio level tool?
SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
Absolutely.
I mean, obviously, we built oursystem to handle massive
projects, but it's also forsmall projects.
In fact, we have a producertoday that is using it who was
regularly working on projectsfor museums, doing small
productions and projects formuseums around the US.
And uh her project budget rangesare usually somewhere between 30
and 70,000 per project.
(32:06):
And she was using just a simplespreadsheet.
And when she saw the power ofLine Budgeter, not only to be
easy to use, but to be able tomanipulate her information and
get better accuracy for herfinanciers or just for her team,
uh, she now uses Line Budgeter.
Uh, and again, we didn't buildLine Budgeter only handle$500
million films.
(32:27):
And while it certainly can, uh,and it can handle that without
breaking a sweat, lower budgetprojects obviously benefit as
well from those more accurateestimates, which allow you to
not waste the money.
And um, that money could be onscreen instead of sitting in a
fringe account by error oroverestimating incentives.
That's never a good conversationwith a financier when you
(32:48):
thought you were getting back1.6 million and you only are
getting back 1.4.
That$200,000 gap is is usuallyjust because of errors in
calculation, and that's not agreat conversation to have.
So so again, projects of alltypes and sizes around the
world, no matter where you'refilming, you they can all gain
from the inherent benefits ofusing the software.
SPEAKER_03 (33:10):
Oh, that sounds great.
Because that's our world, thestudents and the emerging
filmmakers.
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
For sure.
SPEAKER_03 (33:18):
So uh why no AI?
Because in a world where everynew tool seems to be leading
with artificial intelligence,you both made a deliberate
choice to build line budgeteraround what you call
human-centered intelligence.
So tell us why, and also whatdoes AI get wrong when it comes
(33:42):
to production budgeting?
SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
Well, we're not anti-AI, but we are very careful
about where it belongs.
Um, production budgetingrequires precision, context, and
accountability.
Um, and uh you know, you'redealing with real money, real
crews, real schedules, and realconsequences.
And um AI is is very good atmaking confident guesses, but a
budget can't be built onguesses.
(34:08):
Um it needs to be built onproduction logic.
Um, rates, fringes, incentives,uh, calendars, assumptions, and
you know, producer judgment atthe end of it all.
Um and that's why we call or youknow, we talk about it being
human-centered intelligence.
Um the goal is to not replacethe producer or to um generate
(34:29):
data that isn't accurate.
Um, it's very easy to use AItools.
Um and you can you know see thethe the they are good at at
throwing you know uh some youknow something on the wall and
it can be considered a goodstarting point.
But uh in terms of reliability,accuracy, and actually knowing
(34:49):
all of those nuances that we'vediscussed in the last several
questions, they they don't havethat.
And they may never have all ofit, and it may not be uh uh
something that you can reallyrely on when money's on the
line.
Um, because again, mistakes arecostly um and and a tool that
can't uh be accurate issomething that we we we didn't
(35:10):
want to build.
So the goal is to give producersuh better tools with you know
better information and moreconfidence while keeping humans
at the center of the creativeand financial process.
Um I think um one of our ourusers and this quote on our
website is that um while theylike AI a lot, it's just AI has
(35:32):
never built been on set before.
And um it's obvious that LineBudget or has.
And that comes from taking whatpeople actually do in this job
and building it into softwareversus having um a tool set that
doesn't have access to all thisinformation.
I mean, what studio in the worldis gonna be like, yeah, analyze
(35:52):
all my budgets and then generatestuff for other people in your
tool?
No one's gonna do that.
Um not all of this data isavailable for a computer to just
analyze and then you know outputan accurate uh you know picture.
Um your project might be at adifferent budget range than mine
is, and we we have different umyou know things, uh thresholds
(36:13):
that we met that differentaspects change for each other,
but the tool doesn't necessarilyunderstand all that stuff
implicitly.
And so then you your budgetmight have now inherent errors
because of that.
So we we just really feel thatit's an early tool.
And while we want AI in ourtool, we we look at it more as
like an agenic uh type helperwhere it's like, hey, by the
way, the market rate has changedon your currency today, and if
(36:36):
in you know, it would save yourproject$40,000.
Do you want to update yourbudget rate for that currency?
And that could positively affectyour your um your budget.
Tools like that is where we seeAI as a very good help because
as a producer, you're tracking amillion things at once.
And so remembering to check themarket rate on currency, you
know, that's that gets pusheddown the line, you know.
(36:58):
Um, having a tool that can helpyou be aware of all those
things, that that's where we seea benefit from, but not in terms
of trying to um accurately uhmake make budgets.
SPEAKER_03 (37:11):
Right.
Well, so what's next for linebudgeter?
Is this the first product?
Um is cinematic apps buildingtowards a full end-to-end
production management platform?
So where does it go from here?
SPEAKER_01 (37:29):
Yeah, that that that's that's the hope.
Um budgeting is the startingpoint, and and because
everything begins with themoney, we started there.
Um we've we've developed thisover the last five years.
It's not a brand new uh kind offeatureless tool.
It's a very robust tool withover 150 features.
Um, all kinds of helpful toolsare built into the program, and
(37:53):
um it's the first step towards amuch larger platform.
Um, the vision is to build uhwhat we call line PM, which is
line production management, um,and it's to connect the major
pieces of production management,uh, budgeting, scheduling, cash
flow incentives, collaboration,approvals, and eventually
handing that data um both offinto and out of accounting and
(38:14):
payroll so data can traveldownstream and back into these
tools that we use so that you asa producer have more real-time
data.
You know, you're using yourbudget and you're going like,
oh, I have$5,000 in purchases.
Let me check my cash, uh, mycost report that's a week old.
Maybe I don't have$5,000.
What do I have accounting?
I got to get back to, you know,all that stuff's in these
different systems and they justdon't talk to each other.
(38:36):
And so building a way for allthis data to come back gives
that producer um more confidencein making those decisions
because it's very easy in thebeginning of the production to
be like, yes, get the tool.
It's an extra$1,000, no problem.
But near the end of thatproduction, you may not know you
have an extra thousand dollarsto get that.
And it's always a bummer whenyou say no and then find out
later you had the money forsomething and you had to say no
(38:58):
because you just didn't youcouldn't make that decision uh
confidently.
Um, and so uh we're we'rebuilding this platform, you
know.
We we we've started with aroundfilm and television, but it's
actually also for commercialsand animation, video games, live
events, theatric, uh theater uhconcerts, and really any project
where production teams aremanaging people, time, money,
(39:20):
and constant change.
And so the goal for Line PM as aplatform is to become the
connected backbone of modernproduction, um, not just another
tool, but the place whereproduction information stays
current, accountable, and usablefrom prep to wrap.
SPEAKER_03 (39:35):
Well, keeping all of this information current is a
process.
And you're going to be able tohandle that with your current
setup.
SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
It'll yes, because the entire uh focus has been
from the beginning that um whenwe started producing and wanting
to be producers and and andstepping into this, the producer
is a person that's involved inin every aspect of production
and bringing this whole whateveryou're building to life.
(40:06):
But as time has progressed, theproducer feels like you're more
relegated to be behind screens,managing spreadsheets, budgets,
schedules, all this data thatyou're just staring at a screen
all day, keeping them allupdated, and you're not out
there doing the the work thatyou need to do to understand
your production.
You're part of that heartbeatand need to know what's going
on.
You're not in a room locked awaybehind a screen.
(40:28):
You know, it's not happening onthe screen on your on your
spreadsheet screen.
It's happening on the on the onthe on the monitors down at
Video Village or whatever.
Those screens are what you needto be a part of in the world
that you're building.
Um and so uh our tool isdesigned to uh to allow for
that, to get you back into whyyou got into this business.
(40:48):
Like you didn't get into thisbusiness to work on a
spreadsheet, you got in this tomake great, great creative
content, projects, music,whatever you're doing that is
your creative passion.
Like that's why you're here.
You're not here to be like abetter spreadsheet operator.
And so we've become veryexpensive data entry people to
do all this.
And you can't necessarily trustother or rely on other people to
(41:10):
do it.
You know, they didn't hire youas the producer to then pass
this off to um people that maynot have the skill or the access
that they should have to thisdata.
So it's usually confidentialinformation.
You kind of have to be the onlyperson to manipulate it.
And so you end up spending a tonof your time on this.
And uh our tool is trying togive that time back to you, and
you can use it on the productionin better ways.
SPEAKER_03 (41:33):
Oh, how wonderful! You're so right, Stephen,
Matthew.
That's where you belong is onthe set, watching this uh
filming in the post room.
That's where you really belongbecause you're the carrier of so
much knowledge, and this programwill allow that.
I think it's wonderful.
(41:53):
And I sincerely thank you bothfor the information today,
because what you've built isn'tjust software, it's a statement
that the people who actuallymake films deserve better tools,
and it will say production hoursof research.
So to our listeners, I want youto leave with this.
(42:15):
Every great film begins with anidea, and then it becomes a
budget.
And in that moment, thespreadsheet in the numbers, in
the fringe rates, and theincentive calculations, your
story either finds itsfoundation or it doesn't.
So for too long, that processhas been harder than it really
(42:38):
needed to be.
Sometimes it was confusing, andmost of the time it was time
consuming and intimidating.
So I want to capitalize and sayhere that Stephen and Matthew,
some of the things they saidtoday are such as the structure
is not the enemy of creativity,the structure is the container
(43:04):
that allows your creativity tobreathe, to survive, and to
reach an audience.
So when you understand yourbudget, really understand it,
you're no longer at the mercy ofthe process, you're in command
of it.
And that changes everything.
Because I've spent my lifebelieving one thing about
(43:25):
filmmakers, that the magic isalready inside you.
You don't need permission, youdon't need a spirited studio,
you need clarity, you needtools, and you need to believe
in yourself enough to take thatfirst step.
This is exactly what I wrote inmy new book, You Are the Magic,
(43:46):
because you are.
And every single one of youlistening to this right now,
your story matters, your filmmatters, and you have more power
to make it than you think.
So go visit line p.pm.
Explore what Stephen and Matthewhave built and start your
(44:08):
budget, not with dread, but withconfidence.
And remember that every greatfilmmaker, every one of them,
started exactly where you areright now.
So we'll leave a link to theline budgeter and uh all of
today's resources in the shownotes.
(44:28):
And Claire, thank you as alwaysfor having and being on my side
for this journey and to ourincredible listeners.
We're very grateful to you.
So please share this episodewith a filmmaker who needs to
hear it and leave us a reviewand come back and join us for
our next podcast because we havemore extraordinary conversations
(44:50):
coming your way.
So until then, make your filmbecause you truly are the magic.
What if the single most dreaded part of filmmaking,
the budget, could actuallybecome your greatest creative
advantage?
Well, stay with us because bythe end of this episode, you
will never look at a budget thesame way again.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
So glad you could join us on the Art of Film
Funding podcast.
I'm Claire Papin, and I'm proudto serve as co-producer of this
podcast alongside the remarkableCarol Dean, founder of From the
Heart Productions and author ofThe Independent Filmmaker's
Essential Guide.
The Art of Film Funding SecondEdition.
(01:59):
Every week, Carol and I bringyou the people, the ideas, and
the tools that help filmmakersnot just dream their dreams, but
actually make them.
And today we have two guests whoare doing something this
industry has been waitingdecades for.
Let me introduce them properly,because their stories matter.
(02:23):
Stephen Marinaccio is a veteranproducer with over 35 years of
experience working on globalfeature films and television.
He's worked in more than 30countries from diving to the
wreck of the Titanic as unitproduction manager under James
(02:44):
Cameron on Ghosts of the Abyssto serving as the lead UPM on
Netflix's Marco Polo.
He's also the creator of thefilm TV budgeting community on
Reddit, a space where producersshare real unfiltered knowledge
(03:05):
about the business ofproduction.
Matthew Cooney is a producer,head of production at Bix Pix
Entertainment, and a 20-yearveteran of both live action and
animation.
He's overseen more than$70million in production budgets.
(03:26):
What makes Matthew uniquelypositioned to build the future
of this industry is his rarecombination of deep production
experience and an earlybackground in streaming
technology.
He thinks like a producer.
And together, Stephen andMatthew founded Cinematic App.
(03:48):
And on March 4th of 2026, theylaunched their flagship product,
Line Budgeter.
It's the first modern end-to-endbudgeting platform built by
working producers who weresimply done waiting for someone
else to fix the tools.
And Carol, I know you want tolearn all you can about the
(04:11):
benefits of cinematic apps.
SPEAKER_03 (04:14):
Absolutely, Claire.
And we sincerely appreciate bothof you joining us, Stephen and
Matthew.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thank you.
We appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03 (04:25):
Good.
Well, let's get started.
Uh what's the origin story?
Um, you both had extraordinarycareers at the top of the
industry.
So what was the moment, thespecific breaking point when you
looked at each other and said,we have to build something
better ourselves?
SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
Well, um I can remember it vividly because I
had been working in the legacytools and um one morning I
lifted or had gone to bed thenight before while budgeting the
show, and I had closed the lidto my laptop and walked away
like I normally do, and then Ireturned to my desk the next
morning and lifted the lid to mylaptop, and all my budgets were
(05:09):
gone.
And I wasn't able to recoverthem, and it was uh because of
legacy tools.
And I had been, you know, justlike many producers, frustrated
with uh working in the toolsthat we had, and I uh had
reached out to a friend justlamenting about the issue, and
basically he's like, Oh, you youshould talk to Steven.
(05:31):
Steven's been wanting to dosomething like that, and so I'm
like, I don't know, he's a busyguy.
And so I sent him an email, andlike 12 minutes later, Steven
responded, like, I'm in.
And so then we basically had acouple meetings, decided that we
uh had to do something about it,and took a full year to kind of
RD everything out.
It's not just like, hey, wecould just make what we have
(05:52):
prettier and better and and andcall it a day, but it really
came down to like what we'vebeen working in, the tools we've
had.
It was designed around aworkflow that's 30 years old,
and the workflow that we allhave is dramatically changed.
And so we basically, you know,at that moment we're like, we
have to think about what thenext 10, 15, 20, 30 years is
(06:14):
going to be and have the toolsthat producers need available to
them.
SPEAKER_03 (06:20):
Exactly.
Thank you very much for that.
I'm so happy that the two of yougot together because you're
revolutionizing the budget.
So, Matthew, you've said thatproducers are using tools built
in the 1990s.
So, for our listeners, many ofthem have been on their first or
their second film.
(06:41):
So, can you describe in plainterms what a producer's typical
budgeting day looks like withthe old system?
And what does that pain feellike now that you have the new
system?
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Absolutely.
Uh, the pain, I don't think wecan all ever really forget it.
It's it's kind of like a PTSD ofproduction.
Um, most producers are stillbuilding budgets from old
template files, and um, youreshape them for every new
project and um kind of basharound the data to uh you know
fit it for what your your yournew project is.
(07:16):
And um, so you spend a lot oftime manually forcing that data
into these tools that were neverreally designed for how
productions work, especiallytoday.
And um we spend we end upspending or using separate tools
for for cash flow, incentives,schedules, notes, and approvals,
but none of them talk to eachother.
So a lot of time gets spentupdating that information in all
(07:37):
those different places andchecking versions and making
sure nobody's working on olddata, or you unfortunately find
out somebody's been usingsomething that's two weeks out
of date.
Um, and so the the bigger issueis the production has changed,
but our tools haven't.
And producers are being expectedto be cheaper, better, and
faster while our toolboxesremain the same.
And so, you know, we feelproducers should not have to
(07:58):
spend more time managing theirtools and data than managing the
production.
SPEAKER_03 (08:03):
Absolutely.
All right.
Well, let's talk about whatyou've built.
So tell us about cinematic appsand your platform, uh, and
specifically, what is the linebudgeter and how does it change
that painful experience that youdescribed?
SPEAKER_01 (08:23):
Well, we we're building a platform that we call
Line PM for line productionmanagement, and line budgeters
the first major piece of ourplatform.
So we we chose to start with thebudget because all productions
kind of start with the money.
And so um you know, our ourplatform we've launched in in
early March, and um, sobasically it gives producers and
(08:44):
production teams a modern way tobuild and manage budgets without
relying on those old tempo filesand disconnected workflows.
Um you can create better budgetsfaster, you can model changes,
work with ratebooks andincentives directly in your
budget, generate cash flow outof your budget, share your
budgets with other people inreal time, and it keeps teams
closer to the latest version andon the same page.
(09:06):
Um, our philosophy, like I saida few minutes ago, wasn't to
just make like a prettierversion of the older tools.
We wanted to rethink theworkflow from the ground up and
based on how working producersare actually building, revising,
and managing budgets under thereal production pressure of
today.
Um, and so the goal is to makethe budget a living, connected
part of production and not astatic file everyone has to keep
fixing.
SPEAKER_03 (09:28):
Wonderful.
Well, one of the things thatreally surprised me in my
research was the concept offramework budgets.
Uh, this is not a template.
Can you explain what a frameworkbudget is and how it works and
why this approach is sodifferent from what producers
have been stuck with?
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
Sure.
I'll I'll add to that.
As Matt said earlier, in legacyapplications, the user is forced
to open that template file orsome other version of a budget
that they've done in the past asthat starting point.
And uh this starts the budgetingprocess on an inefficient
footing.
Uh, people are making budgets.
Um, the the people that aremaking the budgets are very
(10:11):
expensive data entry people.
And to take that time to rebashan old file into a working
version for this project, youhave to pay them a lot of their
valuable time to undo and redoall that work.
So our budget builder systemcreates a clean and fresh
starting point for yourbudgeting uh needs of your
(10:32):
project, specifically built withthe the elements and the needs
of your show.
And we call this the framework,and it's your starting point.
So now you can focus on buildingyour budget from there, not uh
dealing with fixing a lot ofstuff from the past to make it
work in this new project.
SPEAKER_03 (10:50):
Oh, that's much better.
So um good.
Now let's get into thispre-flight checklist because
that's a great name.
You built um this one, this oneinto the line budgeter with over
4,600 topics and growing.
That is extraordinary.
(11:11):
So, what is the pre-flightchecklist and what does it do
for a producer who may not evenknow what they don't know yet?
SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
We one of the core philosophies,I'll tell I'll tell you, is that
when Matt and I sat down and wegot together and we said, let's
make something better, um, wedidn't want to just make
something different and better.
We also wanted to help thecommunity, right?
So the in doing budgets, we'reoften sort of alone and we're
just doing it on our own.
(11:44):
Yes, we have some input fromproducers or directors, but um
we we are pretty much justsitting in a room smashing
numbers into a uh a program, butuh, and there's no help for
that.
There's there's not necessarilya camaraderie between us, the
people that do that.
So we wanted to also createstuff inside of our application
that's helpful for those peopledoing things.
(12:05):
And one of the things is thepre-flight checklist.
So very akin to a pilot checkingthe flight uh the plane before
takeoff.
Uh, we have, as you see, as youmentioned, over 4,600 topics to
help producers make sure thatthey thought through things.
In addition to that, we offer anintegrated rate book for current
pay rates from around the world,a comprehensive tax infringe
(12:27):
library, as well as globalincentive data with over 480
rebate and incentive programs.
So all of these data setsintegrate directly into your
budget, giving producers anessential information that you
need while you're preparing yourbudget.
And specifically, the pre-flightchecklist allows you to go
through a myriad of subjects andopen up that area and take a
(12:50):
look at a bunch of things thatyou might want to think about.
For example, if you have notdone prosthetics for a while or
you've never done prosthetics ona movie, you open up the
pre-flight checklist, go toprosthetics, open it up, and it
will ask you a bunch ofquestions that you might want to
think about, such as have youtalked to the makeup effects
people that um about what kindof application they're using,
(13:12):
potentially actors' skin isallergic to the latex versus
foam, or or the the idea thatyou're using contact lenses and
do you need a lens tech?
All of these things are thingsyou need to think about, and you
might not know to think aboutit.
So this allows you to justremind yourself or learn a
little bit more.
So, again, those subjects arevery wide-ranging uh based on
(13:35):
Matt and I's experience on realfilms around the world.
We just put that all into theapplication to allow you to do
better work.
SPEAKER_03 (13:44):
Oh, that's so smart.
Well, let me ask you about this480 rebates.
So, like if I was uh shooting inIreland and Italy, which are two
hot places now, um, you wouldhave the rebate uh information
available for maybe.
SPEAKER_00 (14:02):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, you open up the uh theincentive tool.
Our incentive engine is verydynamic and and rich with
details on how to manipulate theinformation that you're doing as
far as the costs and such perlocation.
And it allows you to really uhhone down that projected rebate.
But you open up that engine andthere's a library there that you
(14:25):
would open up and take a look,and you go down the list and
find Ireland or Italy orwhatever country you're going
to, and it will uh populate thatwith the different rebate and
incentive programs that areavailable in that area.
Uh, and then you can start fromuh a good starting point rather
than having to Google it or calla friend of yours and wait
(14:46):
around or try to get a hold of aproduction service company
local.
You can get started moving downthat track much easier and
faster.
And of course, you're going todouble check everything.
Things change.
Maybe a local production servicecompany knows a little extra
that you didn't realize.
But all of that stuff is is inthe program, allowing you to
work faster and and moreaccurately from the get-go.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
Well, how do you do that when you're here in America
and you're helping create abudget for someone who's
shooting in Ireland?
Um, how do you know what thegaffer charges or what the DP
wants?
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
It's a it's a great age-old question.
And uh I fortunately have thatexperience.
I do that all the time.
I my most of my career is a isinternational and not in the
United States.
And this is that age-old thingthat you just need to know what
you're looking for.
And after a while, you get theexperience of who to call.
But if you don't have a Rolodexof production services companies
(15:46):
around the world or friends whoare producers around the world
to just call them and say, Hey,can you send me a rate guide?
The um, the the next best nextbest thing then is again built
into Line Budgeter, we have aratebook library that you can
get access to and it's growing,but we'll have a bunch of rate
books from around the world.
So if you're shooting in Italyor Ireland or Jordan or Thailand
(16:12):
or so forth, you can go thereand get one of those ratebooks
and at least have a goodstarting point.
And all these ratebooks arevetted by locals to make sure
that they're up to date andaccurate as possible.
SPEAKER_03 (16:22):
That's a lot of work.
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
It is.
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
Because you've worked in theindustry for over 30 years, so
you understand better thanalmost anyone how complicated
international rates, labor laws,union rules are.
And so, how does line budgeterhandle the global complexity of
modern production?
SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
So it's a great question.
Obviously, it'll always comeback to the line producer or UPM
that you have working on theproject and their experience and
knowledge.
But working around the world,obviously, every country has
different methods and laws.
Uh as a line producer,understanding how those things
work in a given place affectshow you budget.
So uh from working hours, um,hiring practices, there are many
(17:11):
subjects that affect all thedifferent aspects of hiring
those local crew or how you rentthings.
So, again, one of our tenets inbuilding line budgeter was to
assist in doing that great work.
So, no matter what type ofproject you're doing, we built
in rate books to fully uh, andthen you're you're you're
finally able to assimilate thoserates directly into your budget
(17:34):
from ratebook.
And so, how it helps you in yourinternational work is that it's
giving you a bunch of thatinformation and helpful steps to
make sure that you're thinkingabout what you need to think
about.
Going back to that pre-flightchecklist, there's a whole
section for international work.
You might not know to thinkabout how that local place deals
(17:54):
with lunch breaks, or how dothey deal with um uh gear and
movement, or how do they dealwith if you're shooting not
inside of a major city and youhave to go outside, do they have
uh stipulations for workingnearby?
So all of these things arethings that you need to know.
But in line budgeter, you'reable to manipulate that data
(18:16):
faster and quicker so that youdon't have to deal with all the
monotony of smashing it into asystem that a legacy product
that is just not built to takethat information.
And this overall creates abetter level of efficiency.
SPEAKER_03 (18:32):
Exactly.
Um, because independentpillmakers, especially, are
looking for tax incentives andrebates, and that can make or
break a financing plan and it'sa sales pitch.
I mean, they need to know howmuch of a rebate and how much
money is coming back for theirinvestors.
(18:54):
So, can you walk us through howline budgeter handles incentives
and why the way you built it ismore accurate than anything else
currently out there?
SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
Yeah, as I said before, the um the process of
putting an incentive into abudget is not very accurate when
all you're doing is sort ofgoing to the top sheet and
smashing in 30% and hoping forthe best.
Uh, so our system, as Imentioned earlier, is built on
our really deep analysis ofinternational uh incentives and
(19:29):
rebate programs and how theyactually work.
So the idea of adding floors tomonitor whether or not your
budget is going to achieve thatthreshold to get the incentive,
or the the idea that they mighthave a sub-incentive or a uh an
uplift that allows you to dosomething special with a certain
(19:49):
part of the incentive, forexample, local labor, or maybe
you're shooting outside of azone.
Um, those things are all handledindividually in our incentive
engine, which uh is unique tous, not found in any other
software.
And that detail allows you tomanipulate the data in such a
(20:10):
way to give you accurate uhrebate um projections.
And uh and you can rely on thatwithout having to spend days or
weeks tracking down all theinformation.
Again, you have that library togo to and build your budget um
based on accurate informationand uh the allowance of the
(20:31):
system through its mechanical orits uh its detailed information
of the engine, if you will,behind the scenes to be able to
uh give you an accurate number.
And that's that's the realthing.
Every show out there is chasingan incentive, but there's
different things that you needto think about.
It's not just simply this placeis 30% versus this place is 25.
(20:52):
So we're definitely going toshoot in the 30% place.
There's a lot of things to thinkabout when you're deciding on
that.
So local rates might be lower,or in this other place, gear
isn't even available, so youneed to spend more money.
So all of those things areinside of our system through the
pre-flight checklist or theincentive library, and that
engine allows you to thinkthrough the process a little bit
(21:16):
better and deeper as opposed tojust being thrown into the deep
end of the water and good luck.
SPEAKER_03 (21:22):
Yes, no, this is really important because
sometimes the rebates,particularly if you throw in the
181 and 168 from the UnitedStates, and you're shooting in
Ireland, for example, and US,you you can say, look to your
investors, uh, 50% of the filmis covered through rebates and
(21:45):
gifts from the countries we'reworking in.
And that is a closer.
So those are very importantnumbers.
SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (21:55):
So let's talk about the cash flow feature because
this really stopped me in mytracks.
Line Budgeter is the firstbudgeting program to ever
generate a cash flow documentdirectly from the budget itself.
So, Matthew, why has this neverexisted?
And what does it mean for afilmmaker trying to raise money
(22:19):
or present it to a studio?
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
Um, well, I I think it hasn't existed before because
most of the budgeting tools onthe market were built to
calculate costs and they don'tunderstand how those costs move
through time.
And so they can't output a cashflow because they don't
understand when you need themoney.
So um cash flow depends on thecalendar, your phases, location,
(22:43):
payroll timing, and theassumptions behind a budget.
Um, and so those tools were justnever structured for that.
And with Line Budgeter, we do wewe do track all those things.
You can put your your calendaruh scheduling information into
uh the the budget and basicallyit connects those pieces so that
a cash flow can be generateddirectly from from your budget.
(23:04):
And when we say just generated,it's you can put in that you you
have a person working betweenthese two dates and say that's
just you know.
Over four weeks, and the programwill then know when you need
that money, how much you needeach week, and then therefore,
um, when you make changes, um,it it'll just update
automatically.
Um, and so for filmmakers, it'sit's a huge shift because making
(23:26):
a cash flow is a lot of work.
Number one, you spend a lot oftime making a budget, and then
you go over here and make a cashflow, and then you make changes
to that budget, and then youhave to go do the cash flow
update, and then you do back andforth and back and forth, and
that ends up eating a goodamount of time in prep,
depending on how many revisionsyou have to go through.
(23:47):
And so with Line Budgeter, youcan make those revisions in the
budget and then just with a fewclicks export out a new cash
flow updated with all thosechanges, and so it saves a ton
of time and it gives a realaccurate um projection for when
the money's needed.
So uh it's not really a guessinggame because if if uh a
financier asks you a question oflike, why do you need all this
(24:09):
money right now?
It's not just to say that, like,well, it, you know, I just
divided the money across theweeks and that's what I need.
It's like, no, I have 17 peoplestarting on this day, and I'm
renting this gear, and we alsohave to you know pay the deposit
for this, and you you have allthat information right at your
fingertips.
So it makes it much morepowerful when presenting your
case for financing.
SPEAKER_00 (24:30):
And I'd like to add to that too, working
internationally in multiplecountries, you're doing and
studios are asking forfinanciers, are asking for not
just the cash flow for theproject in general, but if you
have to break that cash flowalso into different countries
with different currencies,that's even further an arduous
task.
So, and then as Matt said, youupdate the budget, then you have
(24:53):
to update not just one cashflow, but three or four for
different countries.
Uh, this allows you to then alsoget into the detail of how much
money you need to send to thatcountry because exchange rates
are certain ways.
And so managing that money andmoving it around through
different banks, you now knowwhen you need that money, how
much you need, and you canpre-buy.
(25:14):
It makes that a little bitsimpler as well for accounting.
So um, just the idea of doing acash flow is is one thing, but
now imagine that you have to domultiples for one project
because you're in threedifferent countries.
That's an even worse task to tryto do.
And line budgeter, as Matt said,does it in a couple button
clicks.
SPEAKER_03 (25:33):
Fantastic.
Well, what a lot of filmmakersdon't realize is that you often
have to defend your budget.
Uh, this is something they don'tlike to have to do because you
sometimes investors want to goline by line and say, why, why,
why?
(25:53):
And you have to be able to say,look, I know John at this uh
post house, and this is the bestprice I can get for editing, uh,
et cetera, or uh this isincluding editing and the other
whatever involved.
You have to know, really getclose to your budget and make it
(26:14):
easy to discuss with people uhwho are the investors.
But you once you can do that,you're on your way to funding
your film, trust me.
SPEAKER_00 (26:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, it goes back to secondgrade math school, right?
You teacher would say show yourwork.
And if you're just doing abudget that just has a bunch of
general allowances, that'sharder to defend, as you say.
Um, but if you can show yourwork and and have them
understand how that breaks down,uh you're you're further along
in making sure that they um canaccept the idea that this
(26:48):
project might cost X.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:51):
And your knowledge, it comforts the investor.
The fact you know you created itthrough experience and through
knowledge and through friends inthe internet or universe, our
universe, the film industry,that's when you really feel
good.
When you're talking to someonewho knows the numbers and
(27:14):
they're handling your money, youfeel really comfortable.
SPEAKER_00 (27:18):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (27:19):
Let's talk about the real-time collaboration because
today's productions are oftenmulti-city, multi-country, and
even multi-team.
So, how does line budgeterhandle collaboration?
And what does that mean foraccountability and transparency
on a production?
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Well, line budgeter was built for global production
from the start.
Stevens, you know, workedinternationally the entire time
while we developed the tool.
So we basically factored all ofthat into how this tool needed
to work.
So multi-city, multi-country,multi-team, that is the reality
now, and that's how this toolworks.
Instead of passing budget filesaround and hoping everyone has
(28:01):
the latest version, you canwork, um, your team can work
from one shared budget withpermissions and visibility and
clear record of what's changed.
So there's no more, um, let mecheck my email, make sure I have
the latest draft, I'm in thewrong file.
Everyone front and center knowswhich file is the latest one.
You can all work in it togetherno matter where you are in the
(28:22):
world.
Uh that that changesaccountability because the
budget becomes a living sourceof truth instead of a static
file on someone's computer.
And um, because we are designed,uh, the line budget is designed
to hand clean data into existingaccounting and payroll
workflows, teams get more of amodern layer, uh collaboration
layer without having to likethrow away the systems that they
already use.
SPEAKER_03 (28:42):
A living source of truth that is beautiful.
That's wonderful.
So um the data and the reportingpower.
So, Stephen, you said somethingin an interview that I loved.
You said we've been able toanswer questions people didn't
know they were allowed to ask.
(29:05):
So, give our listeners a fewexamples of what that looks like
in practice, the kinds ofinsights a producer can now pull
from their budget instantly.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Sure.
Um, so because Matt and I tookthat time to step back and ask
why things worked the way theywork, uh, we were able to
approach the actual developmentof the software in different
ways.
One aspect would be incentive.
We spoke a little bit aboutthis, but legacy applications
treat incentives as a line onthe top sheet and just blast in
a rebate allowance and calls ita day.
(29:39):
Whereas line budget allows youto dive in deep to the details
of the rebate program that youmight be using and adjust those
nuanced details, which manifestsitself obviously into a more
accurate projection.
Another aspect would be fringes.
Again, we looked around theworld, not just inside the
United States, but around theworld at various uh unions and
(30:02):
uh uh uh governments and howthose actually work.
And um, and we took a look athow to manipulate that data in
better and more efficient ways,and we added different
functionality to allow a betterestimation.
So LineBudgeter offers four orfive more versions of fringing
units beyond the standard thatyou'll find in any other legacy
(30:22):
application, which is justpercentage and fringe.
And I guess one of the lastcall-out I would say is hot
analytics, something we call hotanalytics.
Uh, basically, because we putthe details back into line item
details, um, the way that oursub-accounts categorize data, it
allows a producer to ask crazyquestions that would normally
(30:43):
get eye rolls from accountingand uh take hours to figure out,
right?
So, such as uh how much are wespending in purchases in Paris
during prep on episode four?
That would send accounting intoa tailspin, uh, hours of work on
a side napkin or Excel shedspreadsheets opened up.
Uh so this is all done now inline budget or naturally.
(31:06):
As they're building your budget,it's taking account of all these
things.
Um, and it's not hours and hoursof tedious work afterwards,
grouping that information,hoping that you did it
correctly, you didn't misssomething.
It's it's doing that naturallyas you go.
And now you can know thatinformation now.
SPEAKER_03 (31:25):
Great.
Well, now I want to speak torescue who are listeners because
many of humor making films ahundred thousand or three
hundred thousand, maybe up to amillion dollars.
So is line budgeter for them, oris this a studio level tool?
SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
Absolutely.
I mean, obviously, we built oursystem to handle massive
projects, but it's also forsmall projects.
In fact, we have a producertoday that is using it who was
regularly working on projectsfor museums, doing small
productions and projects formuseums around the US.
And uh her project budget rangesare usually somewhere between 30
and 70,000 per project.
(32:06):
And she was using just a simplespreadsheet.
And when she saw the power ofLine Budgeter, not only to be
easy to use, but to be able tomanipulate her information and
get better accuracy for herfinanciers or just for her team,
uh, she now uses Line Budgeter.
Uh, and again, we didn't buildLine Budgeter only handle$500
million films.
(32:27):
And while it certainly can, uh,and it can handle that without
breaking a sweat, lower budgetprojects obviously benefit as
well from those more accurateestimates, which allow you to
not waste the money.
And um, that money could be onscreen instead of sitting in a
fringe account by error oroverestimating incentives.
That's never a good conversationwith a financier when you
(32:48):
thought you were getting back1.6 million and you only are
getting back 1.4.
That$200,000 gap is is usuallyjust because of errors in
calculation, and that's not agreat conversation to have.
So so again, projects of alltypes and sizes around the
world, no matter where you'refilming, you they can all gain
from the inherent benefits ofusing the software.
SPEAKER_03 (33:10):
Oh, that sounds great.
Because that's our world, thestudents and the emerging
filmmakers.
SPEAKER_00 (33:16):
For sure.
SPEAKER_03 (33:18):
So uh why no AI?
Because in a world where everynew tool seems to be leading
with artificial intelligence,you both made a deliberate
choice to build line budgeteraround what you call
human-centered intelligence.
So tell us why, and also whatdoes AI get wrong when it comes
(33:42):
to production budgeting?
SPEAKER_01 (33:45):
Well, we're not anti-AI, but we are very careful
about where it belongs.
Um, production budgetingrequires precision, context, and
accountability.
Um, and uh you know, you'redealing with real money, real
crews, real schedules, and realconsequences.
And um AI is is very good atmaking confident guesses, but a
budget can't be built onguesses.
(34:08):
Um it needs to be built onproduction logic.
Um, rates, fringes, incentives,uh, calendars, assumptions, and
you know, producer judgment atthe end of it all.
Um and that's why we call or youknow, we talk about it being
human-centered intelligence.
Um the goal is to not replacethe producer or to um generate
(34:29):
data that isn't accurate.
Um, it's very easy to use AItools.
Um and you can you know see thethe the they are good at at
throwing you know uh some youknow something on the wall and
it can be considered a goodstarting point.
But uh in terms of reliability,accuracy, and actually knowing
(34:49):
all of those nuances that we'vediscussed in the last several
questions, they they don't havethat.
And they may never have all ofit, and it may not be uh uh
something that you can reallyrely on when money's on the
line.
Um, because again, mistakes arecostly um and and a tool that
can't uh be accurate issomething that we we we didn't
(35:10):
want to build.
So the goal is to give producersuh better tools with you know
better information and moreconfidence while keeping humans
at the center of the creativeand financial process.
Um I think um one of our ourusers and this quote on our
website is that um while theylike AI a lot, it's just AI has
(35:32):
never built been on set before.
And um it's obvious that LineBudget or has.
And that comes from taking whatpeople actually do in this job
and building it into softwareversus having um a tool set that
doesn't have access to all thisinformation.
I mean, what studio in the worldis gonna be like, yeah, analyze
(35:52):
all my budgets and then generatestuff for other people in your
tool?
No one's gonna do that.
Um not all of this data isavailable for a computer to just
analyze and then you know outputan accurate uh you know picture.
Um your project might be at adifferent budget range than mine
is, and we we have different umyou know things, uh thresholds
(36:13):
that we met that differentaspects change for each other,
but the tool doesn't necessarilyunderstand all that stuff
implicitly.
And so then you your budgetmight have now inherent errors
because of that.
So we we just really feel thatit's an early tool.
And while we want AI in ourtool, we we look at it more as
like an agenic uh type helperwhere it's like, hey, by the
way, the market rate has changedon your currency today, and if
(36:36):
in you know, it would save yourproject$40,000.
Do you want to update yourbudget rate for that currency?
And that could positively affectyour your um your budget.
Tools like that is where we seeAI as a very good help because
as a producer, you're tracking amillion things at once.
And so remembering to check themarket rate on currency, you
know, that's that gets pusheddown the line, you know.
(36:58):
Um, having a tool that can helpyou be aware of all those
things, that that's where we seea benefit from, but not in terms
of trying to um accurately uhmake make budgets.
SPEAKER_03 (37:11):
Right.
Well, so what's next for linebudgeter?
Is this the first product?
Um is cinematic apps buildingtowards a full end-to-end
production management platform?
So where does it go from here?
SPEAKER_01 (37:29):
Yeah, that that that's that's the hope.
Um budgeting is the startingpoint, and and because
everything begins with themoney, we started there.
Um we've we've developed thisover the last five years.
It's not a brand new uh kind offeatureless tool.
It's a very robust tool withover 150 features.
Um, all kinds of helpful toolsare built into the program, and
(37:53):
um it's the first step towards amuch larger platform.
Um, the vision is to build uhwhat we call line PM, which is
line production management, um,and it's to connect the major
pieces of production management,uh, budgeting, scheduling, cash
flow incentives, collaboration,approvals, and eventually
handing that data um both offinto and out of accounting and
(38:14):
payroll so data can traveldownstream and back into these
tools that we use so that you asa producer have more real-time
data.
You know, you're using yourbudget and you're going like,
oh, I have$5,000 in purchases.
Let me check my cash, uh, mycost report that's a week old.
Maybe I don't have$5,000.
What do I have accounting?
I got to get back to, you know,all that stuff's in these
different systems and they justdon't talk to each other.
(38:36):
And so building a way for allthis data to come back gives
that producer um more confidencein making those decisions
because it's very easy in thebeginning of the production to
be like, yes, get the tool.
It's an extra$1,000, no problem.
But near the end of thatproduction, you may not know you
have an extra thousand dollarsto get that.
And it's always a bummer whenyou say no and then find out
later you had the money forsomething and you had to say no
(38:58):
because you just didn't youcouldn't make that decision uh
confidently.
Um, and so uh we're we'rebuilding this platform, you
know.
We we we've started with aroundfilm and television, but it's
actually also for commercialsand animation, video games, live
events, theatric, uh theater uhconcerts, and really any project
where production teams aremanaging people, time, money,
(39:20):
and constant change.
And so the goal for Line PM as aplatform is to become the
connected backbone of modernproduction, um, not just another
tool, but the place whereproduction information stays
current, accountable, and usablefrom prep to wrap.
SPEAKER_03 (39:35):
Well, keeping all of this information current is a
process.
And you're going to be able tohandle that with your current
setup.
SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
It'll yes, because the entire uh focus has been
from the beginning that um whenwe started producing and wanting
to be producers and and andstepping into this, the producer
is a person that's involved inin every aspect of production
and bringing this whole whateveryou're building to life.
(40:06):
But as time has progressed, theproducer feels like you're more
relegated to be behind screens,managing spreadsheets, budgets,
schedules, all this data thatyou're just staring at a screen
all day, keeping them allupdated, and you're not out
there doing the the work thatyou need to do to understand
your production.
You're part of that heartbeatand need to know what's going
on.
You're not in a room locked awaybehind a screen.
(40:28):
You know, it's not happening onthe screen on your on your
spreadsheet screen.
It's happening on the on the onthe on the monitors down at
Video Village or whatever.
Those screens are what you needto be a part of in the world
that you're building.
Um and so uh our tool isdesigned to uh to allow for
that, to get you back into whyyou got into this business.
(40:48):
Like you didn't get into thisbusiness to work on a
spreadsheet, you got in this tomake great, great creative
content, projects, music,whatever you're doing that is
your creative passion.
Like that's why you're here.
You're not here to be like abetter spreadsheet operator.
And so we've become veryexpensive data entry people to
do all this.
And you can't necessarily trustother or rely on other people to
(41:10):
do it.
You know, they didn't hire youas the producer to then pass
this off to um people that maynot have the skill or the access
that they should have to thisdata.
So it's usually confidentialinformation.
You kind of have to be the onlyperson to manipulate it.
And so you end up spending a tonof your time on this.
And uh our tool is trying togive that time back to you, and
you can use it on the productionin better ways.
SPEAKER_03 (41:33):
Oh, how wonderful! You're so right, Stephen,
Matthew.
That's where you belong is onthe set, watching this uh
filming in the post room.
That's where you really belongbecause you're the carrier of so
much knowledge, and this programwill allow that.
I think it's wonderful.
(41:53):
And I sincerely thank you bothfor the information today,
because what you've built isn'tjust software, it's a statement
that the people who actuallymake films deserve better tools,
and it will say production hoursof research.
So to our listeners, I want youto leave with this.
(42:15):
Every great film begins with anidea, and then it becomes a
budget.
And in that moment, thespreadsheet in the numbers, in
the fringe rates, and theincentive calculations, your
story either finds itsfoundation or it doesn't.
So for too long, that processhas been harder than it really
(42:38):
needed to be.
Sometimes it was confusing, andmost of the time it was time
consuming and intimidating.
So I want to capitalize and sayhere that Stephen and Matthew,
some of the things they saidtoday are such as the structure
is not the enemy of creativity,the structure is the container
(43:04):
that allows your creativity tobreathe, to survive, and to
reach an audience.
So when you understand yourbudget, really understand it,
you're no longer at the mercy ofthe process, you're in command
of it.
And that changes everything.
Because I've spent my lifebelieving one thing about
(43:25):
filmmakers, that the magic isalready inside you.
You don't need permission, youdon't need a spirited studio,
you need clarity, you needtools, and you need to believe
in yourself enough to take thatfirst step.
This is exactly what I wrote inmy new book, You Are the Magic,
(43:46):
because you are.
And every single one of youlistening to this right now,
your story matters, your filmmatters, and you have more power
to make it than you think.
So go visit line p.pm.
Explore what Stephen and Matthewhave built and start your
(44:08):
budget, not with dread, but withconfidence.
And remember that every greatfilmmaker, every one of them,
started exactly where you areright now.
So we'll leave a link to theline budgeter and uh all of
today's resources in the shownotes.
(44:28):
And Claire, thank you as alwaysfor having and being on my side
for this journey and to ourincredible listeners.
We're very grateful to you.
So please share this episodewith a filmmaker who needs to
hear it and leave us a reviewand come back and join us for
our next podcast because we havemore extraordinary conversations
(44:50):
coming your way.
So until then, make your filmbecause you truly are the magic.
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