February 25, 2026 • 44 mins
Kinema is a technology-driven global screening and streaming platform designed to democratize film distribution and empower independent filmmakers. Before launching Kinema, Rish was a Principal at Human Ventures, where he supported and invested in early-stage startups across a range of industries. Prior to that, he worked in fintech, leading strategic projects at Transactis ahead of its 2019 acquisition by Mastercard. At Kinema, he champions community-led screenings, virtual events, direct audience relationships, and, most recently, partnered with Show&Tell Films to expand resources and education for filmmakers within the Kinema ecosystem.
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SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Today's conversation is especially meaningful because
it sits at the intersection ofdistribution, community, and
creative sustainability.
Three areas that matter deeplyto filmmakers navigating today's
rapidly changing landscape.
Carol and I are honored towelcome Rich Agarwal, the
(01:40):
co-founder and COO of Kinema, agroundbreaking platform that is
redefining how films reachaudiences through community-led
screenings, filmmaker ownership,and direct relationships with
viewers.
Rich's work has helped thousandsof filmmakers move beyond
(02:03):
traditional gatekeepers and intoa model that values connection,
transparency, and long-termimpact.
Kinema is a technology-drivenglobal screening and streaming
platform designed to democratizefilm distribution and empower
(02:23):
independent filmmakers.
Before launching Kinema, Richwas a principal at Human
Ventures, where he supported andinvested in early stage startups
across a wide range ofindustries.
Prior to that, he worked inFinTech, leading strategic
(02:43):
projects at Transactis ahead ofits 2019 acquisition by
MasterCard.
At Kinema, he championscommunity-led screenings,
virtual events, direct audiencerelationships, and most recently
partnered with Show and TellFilms to expand resources and
(03:07):
education for filmmakers withinthe Kinema ecosystem.
And Carol, I know that you andfrom the heart refer Kinema to
your sponsored filmmakers.
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
Yes, we do, Claire, because it is a brilliant way to
distribute your film.
Wonderful people, caring,nurturing, supporting.
And thank you, Rich, for joiningus.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Thank you so much, Claire and Carol, for having me.
I'm so excited to be here todayand excited for our
conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
Yes, we're going to have a good time.
I want you to tell us about yourjourney, how your early
experience in global developmentand tech led you to build
Kinema.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I started out with a briefstint in global development,
mostly focused on things likewater, sanitation, hygiene,
working with groups like DoctorsWithout Borders and Charity
Water.
And I love that time so much.
It holds a very special place inmy heart.
But I always felt that, youknow, I wanted to see how we
could achieve more scale, whichis what led me to the sort of,
you know, the tech world, mostlyout of it with a perspective of
(04:09):
business for good.
So I spent some time in FinTech,mostly working on taking um at a
firm called Transactus, takingour technology and trying to
expand it to small businessesand really helping to
democratize access to thosetools in healthcare and across
small business.
(04:29):
After we exited that company toMasterCard, I worked in a firm
called Human Ventures asprincipal.
And my role was two things.
It was investing in super earlystage startups, but also helping
build startups from the groundup with experienced founders.
That's where I met ChristyMarchese, my now business
partner and the CEO of Kinema,who had, you know, a lot of
(04:54):
experience in filmmaking andmore so impact production and
impact distribution.
And, you know, we came to thisidea of how do we really help
figure out ways to helpindependent stories thrive in
light of all the things thatwere happening at the time.
So that was about five yearsago.
And now we um we're really happyto be building kinema and
(05:18):
working with filmmakers acrossthe country and the world.
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
You certainly are, and they love it.
I've never heard anything bad.
All I get are great compliments.
SPEAKER_00 (05:28):
That's great to hear.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
Yes.
Tell us how your background intech informed the way you lead
kinema today.
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Absolutely, yeah.
Um, I mean, kinema, it's it'sit's it's uh we really try to
build um the best technology umpossible for filmmakers to um
have the best shot at addingmore revenue streams, um
reaching their audience,engaging and maintaining that
audience, um, and still owningtheir rights and data.
Um so, you know, um we reallytry to build a full theater in a
(06:01):
box solution combined with anoperating system and full
insights.
Um, you know, all the bigplayers in the space today,
Netflix, all the streamers, um,and then all of the creator
economy um companies, um, youknow, from the social media ones
to the ones that are helping todemocratize access to content
and other verticals, SubstackPatreon, have so much technology
(06:24):
behind them, which is what makesit so powerful.
Um, not just, you know, theability to watch a video, but um
the ability to own youraudience, use data and all the
sophisticated marketing toolsthat are available to many other
industries.
And the goal is to really bringthat to Kinema, uh, bring that
into Kinema for filmmakers tomore effectively utilize um to
(06:47):
sort of supercharge theirdistribution, um, their
marketing, um, and really helpthem have all the world-class
tools that are available.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
So you say you you've designed it with a lot of
information, analytics forfilmmakers, right?
Which they don't get with anyother streamer.
They don't know who's watchingtheir material, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, I think in the traditionalstreaming distribution
ecosystem, um, you sort of, youknow, you lose your rights.
And a big part of that is youlose access to your data.
So you don't know who'swatching, um, where they're
watching from, who they are.
Um, and that becomes an issue.
Um, one, because um, you don'tget to um create that snowball
(07:32):
effect for yourself, right?
Like we see so many people havegreat success um in um the
creator economy space and themusic space because they get to
maintain their audience, right?
So um as a filmmaker, we thinkyou should be able to do the
same and have an audience thatcomes to see your film because
they want to see what you'remaking.
Um, your voice is authentic.
Um, so by by accessing your owndata, you're able to um engage
(07:56):
that audience in one project,carry them to the next one.
Um, do things like have an earlyPivot tour of your film and use
that data to influence how youmight want to do some in-person
or theatrical distribution.
Um so it allows you to be smartabout your distribution,
certainly, but it also allowsyou to really create um this
(08:18):
engaged audience that you knowcan be um sustaining for your
entire filmmaking career.
SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
Yes, Kid Hope uh and Stefan Follows were talking
about that just this last week,about how important it is uh to
um stream your informationbefore you just lock picture.
And uh and so are you doing anyof those where you're streaming
(08:48):
um a um a rough cut or a almostcompleted film to get feedback?
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
Oh, it's a great idea.
Yeah, we actually do have somefilmmakers on the platform who
do that.
Um, and I think Kinem is a greattool for that.
It's not uh been as you know uma big part of our business to
date, but we're actively youknow encouraging folks to do
that because the information youget back is great.
It also creates a really goodfundraising opportunity.
Oftentimes you get to the end ofa film, and ideally, or
(09:17):
hopefully, you have you knowplenty of your budget left for
marketing and distribution.
But in some cases, there's ashortfall.
Those early press word-of-mouthfeedback screenings that you can
do using our virtual player, ourtechnology can help you drive
ticket sales or donations tocreate um a nice fundraising
moment to get feedback,certainly, but also to help um
(09:40):
fill those shortfalls.
SPEAKER_02 (09:42):
Yes, the feedback is what you need because you never
really know what until it's onthe big screen and you've got
people watching.
And then you have an opportunityto figure out who your real
audience is.
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
We've seen a lot of folks whowill join us at Kinema and have
a large screening virtuallythat's attended, you know,
really well by folks across thecountry and the world.
And, you know, after thescreening, we'll be able to send
them the data of um, hey, here'sanonymized data of where folks
were watching, right?
And you'll people are oftensurprised that, like, oh wow, I
(10:18):
have these really large pocketsof demand in places I didn't
necessarily expect.
Um, and that data is superhelpful for them to be able to
say, okay, now as I approach mytheatrical tour, um, this is
good information on where I canmaybe focus some marketing
efforts or focus some uh dollarsor um, you know, effort.
SPEAKER_02 (10:37):
And attached to other audiences of that are
similar, uh, that's what it'simportant to find your real
audience, as Keith says, um,right at show and tell, finding
your audience is the key.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Yeah.
Um, if you ask me what I thinkthe biggest challenge and
therefore the biggestopportunity in independent
filmmaking is, I think it'saudience identification.
Um, especially when we talkabout independent film, um the
challenge of, you know, that thereason um all of the larger
streamers are are so powerfuland so um valuable to the market
(11:14):
is because um they own theiraudience, right?
So that's why they don't giveyou any data.
It's Netflix's product is thefact that they have an audience.
Um and so the ability forindependent films to say, hey,
okay, no, no, we're now gonna bethe ones who own the audience um
in a more democratized way issuper powerful.
And certainly it's doesn't comewithout work.
Um, but I think that's the thegoal of what we're trying to
(11:35):
build at Kinema is a way for youto own and maintain your own
audience um and identify themearly, acquire them and retain
them.
SPEAKER_02 (11:44):
Right.
Yeah, so uh you said that Canemawas born to um from a desire to
give filmmakers meaningful lifeoutside of traditional systems,
and this is very true.
The systems are not workingreally in independent filmmakers
(12:05):
to their benefit.
So, what was the catalyst forstarting this platform?
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
Oh, great question.
Um, yeah, so I mentioned I metmy NABIS partner, Christy, the
CEO of Kinevah.
Um, she had a previous companycalled Picture Motion, where she
spent a lot of time um doinggrassroots screening tours for
documentaries and other reallymeaningful films.
And through that work, shereally discovered that like um
they were like really buildingthese grassroots theatrical
(12:30):
distribution tours on the backof Excel map sheets and using
DVDs in the mail, and saw thatit might be a really good way to
give that tech that power tohave these in-person event
footprints to all independentfilmmakers.
Um, so that's really where thiscompany started.
We we started Kinema, it wasactually had a different name
(12:51):
back then, um, with an idea ofcreating a way for um filmmakers
to have um in-person events inmixed-use spaces, whether it's
libraries, churches, um, farms.
We've seen drive-ins for a longtime.
Um so that was the early versionof Kinema we built in about
2020.
Started, you know, launching thecompany and reaching out to
(13:14):
fundraisers, uh, to investors.
Um, and then uh COVID happenedand we're like, wow, well, we're
trying to build an in-personbusiness during March of 2020.
Um so that was an interestingtime.
But the benefit there is thatwe, you know, had all these
folks who were onboarding withus and ready to start their
tours for an in-person campaign,and we needed to quickly
(13:36):
transition them to somethingthat would work during that
time.
And that's how we built ourvirtual cinema, which is a
synchronous way to watch filmstogether across time zones with
a text chat and um livebroadcasting options after.
Um, and that really wassustaining during COVID, but we
also found that that was areally amazing way for
filmmakers to do things likepremieres, press greetings,
(13:58):
feedback screenings, all thatkind of stuff.
And so it became a big part ofour platform even as um the
COVID and the lockdown and thoseaspects uh faded away.
Um, so over time our platformjust kept evolving to meet um
new filmmaker needs and newmarket needs.
Um and we sort of, you know, tryto just be a place for
(14:20):
independent filmmakers and theirand their stories.
And we listened to them and keepbuilding more and more features.
Uh, we built on-demandscreenings so that people could
do more um sort of like pivotcampaigns and film drops, uh,
you know, full TVOT support,lots of additional um layers of
data and how you access that.
(14:42):
Um and so yeah, that's how itcame to be.
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
And then, of course, you became a perfect place for
show and tell.
So uh tell me the vision behindthis partnership.
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
Yeah, I mean, show and tell is a fantastic partner.
Um and um, they are amasterclass in distribution and
fundraising.
They offer education, coaching,community.
And so it's it's a really greatcombination because we've been
spending all our time, as wementioned, trying to build the
best in class technology fordistribution.
And Keith and the team at Showand Tell is just so amazing at
(15:15):
um the um the coaching and thelearning of what does
distribution look like um inthis in this new world.
Um, and so what's reallyexciting is that you know that
partnership is great.
And now, you know, filmmakers atKinema get access to show and
tell, which is so beneficial.
And folks at Show and Tell umget access to um Kinema's um
(15:38):
distribution services.
Um but what's really great is Ithink there's this much larger
community of businesses andorganizations that are committed
to helping independent storiesthrive.
We also have a partnership withSeed and Spark, which offers um
uh crowdfunding for filmmakers,um, and I think has um you know
really amazing success rates.
(15:58):
Um there's a lot of you knowpeople in this industry that are
really working hard to um helpfill um all these gaps and help
um create new systems umeducation and programs that um
make distribution andfundraising and all parts of
independent filmmaking a littlebit easier and a little bit more
(16:19):
sustainable.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
Will and Cedon Spark use your system for
crowdfunding?
SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
Yeah, so we have a partnership with Cedon Spark as
well.
Um Emily Best is a fantasticvoice and um contributor in the
space as well.
Um so Cedon Spark filmmakers whohave a fully funded um, and I
think in Cedon Spark, we'regreenlit film on Cedon Spark get
access to Kinema automatically.
Um and it's a really goodthrough line because we often
(16:50):
find that the folks that areworking on crowdfunding early on
are really entrepreneurial andhave a lot of the early um
support that it takes to doalternative distribution.
SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
Wow, that's wonderful.
So uh the Sedden Spark peopleare raising money to make the
film.
So they uh they use your uhdatabase for uh funding.
And so if you have show and tellCed and Spark, so you must have
a giant uh tech department.
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Our team is mostly tech.
Um to clarify, we don't seed andspark doesn't use our um
database to um fundraise.
We we um um we keep thatprivate.
It's more that it's a we'rewe're a good pipeline for that,
for them to be able to dodistribution after the fact.
And oftentimes when you have umcrowdfunders and early
investors, they're like yoursort of super connectors to um
(17:44):
help you jumpstart alternativedistribution.
Um but yes, to your question, umour our team is mostly tech and
product focused, um, as well asa lot of folks who are um very
um either from or in tune withthe independent film space.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
Right.
Um well let's talk aboutinnovative tools that you have.
That which ones are you the mostexcited about right now,
especially for filmmakersseeking sustainable revenue
streams?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Um, it's a great question.
Um, I mean, I what I what'sexciting to me is that you know,
we build a lot of tools um thatare in and around um different
ways to distribute your filmunder your non-theatrical
license, under TVOD, um, youknow, we also offer series
support.
What's really exciting that Isee is the way filmmakers um,
the creativity we see, ourfilmmakers use those tools with.
(18:38):
Um so we're constantly amazedthat, you know, we have
filmmakers that really takeadvantage of our on-demand
screenings to do things likefilm drops and uh create really
good demand out of having um,you know, early, limited release
runs of a film.
Um so that's what's reallyexciting.
Um, I think that, you know, withthe data piece for us at Kinema
(19:00):
is our is sort of a reallyexciting part where we're trying
to put more time and um energyon our product team to build
more and more ways for you tomanage and access your data and
make it easier for you to um,like I mentioned, um, you know,
do sort of this reallyprofessional digital marketing
um with your film and have afeedback loop that um helps you
(19:21):
do that.
So I think that's a part of thecompany that we're um focused on
um improving even more overtime.
SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
Oh, wonderful.
So, what types of films andcreators tend to succeed on
Canada?
And what advice would you givefilmmakers beginning to explore
this model?
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Yeah, great question.
Um I mean, I think the um thejob of a filmmaker is becoming
increasingly hard.
Um, you have to make the film,you know, become a marketing
expert and um a business personall in one.
So it, you know, it takes a lot.
And I think, you know, all thework that Show and Tell and C
and Spark and all your podcastand from the Heart Productions
(20:00):
is doing is really important.
And what that's creating is thisreally entrepreneurial filmmaker
that, you know, I think whenthey understand early that, you
know, distribution is notsomething that you get, it's
something that you do, um,that's a big benefit because
that often means that they'recoming into distribution um with
a um with a treasure trove ofdata, of audience, and often at
(20:23):
least a little bit of budget umto do the work there.
Um and you know, we often saythat finishing the film is uh
unfortunately only half thebattle these days.
Um so that being said, what Ium, you know, I think we think
the filmmakers that do best onKinema are often the
entrepreneurial ones that eitherare ready to do it, um, some of
the hard work in and aroundmarketing and audience building
(20:44):
and engagement themselves orwith a partner or with, you
know, a team around them,hopefully.
Um and the advice is typicallythat I give to folks, um,
especially if you're, you know,in the early days of starting a
film, is it's never too early tostart um building your audience
and collecting that information.
Um, from the time you fundraiseum to your production, you know,
(21:07):
um, it's really about buildingcommunity um and having, you
know, the people that care aboutyour film, care about the topic,
um, as your sort of supportersand super connectors, because,
you know, one person who's asuper fan um is really worth,
you know, 10 people down theline or 100 people down the line
who uh may watch and uh be partof your audience and your
(21:28):
revenue model.
And the other piece of advice isto um fundraise early.
Um you know, I think it's um umyou know, building a budget for
a film is you know, filmmakerswant to make films, but you also
have to consider the fact that,you know, uh sometimes up to 50%
of your budget should bededicated to um distribution and
(21:50):
marketing.
Um and it can be a challenge tofinish a film and then um start
fundraising again thereafter.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Yes, this is a most important way to think.
We uh we always said aboutmotion picture films that came
out of the studios, whatever thebudget was, they had to spend
that again in marketing.
They would double the budget.
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Totally, yeah.
Um, yeah.
I know, yeah.
It's hard.
It's hard.
And we're asking filmmakers todo a lot these days.
I I am very aware that if you'reum a filmmaker and you're
listening to this, it soundslike you're being asked to make
the film and then um build anentire business around it.
(22:33):
And well, I think that's true.
Um, and I think that, you know,as a filmmaker, you have to make
sure all the competencies arounddistribution, marketing um are
solved for.
I think the one thing I'd alsosay to filmmakers is that you
definitely don't have to do ityourself.
Um, you know, if you don't wantto um do marketing and it's not
your strong suit, um, you justhave to make sure that, you
(22:54):
know, you work with someone,whether it's an impact producer,
um, a a friend, um, someone youhire um that does it for you um
or with you.
Um so having a team around youis um I think a great way to
navigate um all the increasingchallenges.
That we talk about here when wetalk about distribution.
SPEAKER_02 (23:16):
Yes, that's true.
Well, let's talk about howKenyma supports both in-person
and virtual screening.
So they've got two formatsthere.
And they complement each other,right?
So how do they use both of themto get the most out of their
distribution?
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Oh, great question.
Yeah.
So I mean the way we buildKinema is to have a bunch of
options that suit you no matterwhat point at which you are in
in your distribution journey.
So we have a lot of folks thatuse Kinema for everything.
And what we really say is tothink about your distribution
waterfall and think about howyou can create demand and really
achieve that snowball effect ofearly releases that support
(24:01):
create demand and keep creatingmore and more demand, just like,
you know, theatrical windowscreate created demand for DVD
sales.
So in-person and virtualscreenings work really well for
that, where you can use avirtual screening to have a
really um sort of eventized andum exclusive premiere, for
(24:22):
example, right?
And that premiere will help yougenerate press, um, some funds,
maybe, um, and also someinformation about, like I said,
where your audience is.
And you can use that to thencomplement um and support your
in-person um tour.
Um, so we really see them assort of being distinct parts of
(24:43):
your distribution journey and umgood ways to sort of think about
how you can take thatdistribution waterfall um and
take, you know, the time of yourdistribution and really make
sure that each section of ithelps the next section become
more and more uh powerful.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Yes, this is very important.
So, what do you think is onecommon distribution myth that
you wish filmmakers would stopbelieving?
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
Oh, that's a good one.
Um, I think that um, you know, Ithink I mentioned this earlier,
but I think the concept thatdistribution is something you
get um and not something thatyou sort of actively do um would
be the main myth.
I think is is is I definitelysee it changing in a lot of
folks and in a lot of filmmakersthat we work with.
(25:31):
Um, but um I think thedistribution landscape has
changed so significantly overthe past you know decade that um
while it might be nice to thinkthat, oh, I'm gonna make this
film, it's gonna go off intosomeone else's hands and I'll be
on the beach while the moneyrolls through my bank account.
That's often just not the casefor um filmmakers um in the
(25:51):
modern environment.
And active distribution isreally the way forward for um a
large percentage of the filmsthat are being made today.
Um, and that requires a lot ofwork, but I think that also is a
big opportunity for filmmakingand filmmakers.
Um, active distribution meansthat you get a lot more control
for doing that work.
(26:12):
Um, you get the access to youraudience, you get a lot more
insights.
Um, and ideally that becomeslike this asset you have in
addition to your film.
So whereas right now a lot ofthe platforms own the audience,
um, by being active aboutdistribution, um, independent
filmmaking as a community andindependent filmmakers can be
(26:34):
the one that have the controlover um that audience.
SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
Exactly.
Well, um are there genres orthemes that resonate especially
well on kinema?
SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
Oh, great question.
Um, we've seen with so manyfilms across genres and themes
do well on kinema.
Um, we do see documentaries doreally well um on the platform,
specifically because they oftenhave existing built-in
audiences.
Um and so when we talk aboutfinding your audience, it's
often about trying to find umthese hidden pockets of demand
for your film, right?
(27:08):
Um and for independentfilmmaking, in contrast to you
know, a four-quadrant film thatcomes out of a major studio, um,
that presents a challenge.
You know, how do you find folksthat are interested in this
somewhat um alternative or maybeniche segment?
Um, so for documentaries,because they are often part of
the issue area or movement thatthey are speaking about, um,
(27:31):
they're often connected with umgroups of um advocacy groups,
community groups, all thesefolks that care about the topic
and are there therefore um sortof pre-built audiences for them
to connect with.
Um so we see documentaries oftendo really well by being able to
connect with those folks, um,which is why I would, you know,
(27:52):
as you asked before, um I wouldsay like, you know, being able
to engage folks as you build afilm and make sure that you stay
part of those communities andyou're still top of mind for
those um communities is is soimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (28:06):
Well, as a um from the heart productions is a
nonprofit, as you know, we havea lot of filmmakers under our
sponsorship.
So Mark Murray, I've known himfor years, and Mark just
finished Baristas versusBillionaires.
Oh yeah.
Right.
And so he said, uh, you know, hewas looking for how to
(28:28):
distribute it.
And I said, well, you have to goread everything about Canada and
make a decision, but that'swhere I think you belong.
And he joined you, and he'sreally happy.
SPEAKER_00 (28:40):
That's amazing.
We'd love to hear that, Carol.
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah.
His documentary is on uh thepeople at Starbucks who tried to
unionize and of courseimmediately got fired.
SPEAKER_00 (28:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:55):
And uh, but it's so great to have um a place for
documentaries, uh short or long,it doesn't matter.
But this is uh the mostimportant thing right now
because, see, then he can usehis union groups and drive them.
SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Totally.
Um, the film is is fantastic,and I I love the name Breeson's
Virus Billionaires, um, has sucha good ring to it.
Um, I immediately caught my eyewhen I first saw it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
Yes, and he's doing very well.
He's going to have hisCalifornia debut out here at the
Ethos Film Festival.
So I was very excited about hiswork with you.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
So um let's start with how filmmakers can reach
you and start uh learning whatyou do early in their career.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, first just reachout.
We we love to chat.
Um, we always are happy to hopon the phone and chat about, you
know, certainly what we do, butmore about your project and you
know, where Kanema might fit inand how it fits in.
Um, so you can email us at filmsat Kinema.com or just if you are
(30:06):
on our website, there's a buttonon most pages that says chat
with us.
Um and yeah, I mean, I thinkit's never too early to start
thinking about distribution.
And, you know, even if, youknow, let's say your focus is
not on active or alternativedistribution, whatever you want
to call it, um, it's it'scertainly important to have that
conversation early, um, just soyou're prepared for, you know,
(30:29):
um all the outcomes that um uhyou may encounter as you finish
your your film and your project.
SPEAKER_02 (30:37):
Well, that takes us to the brilliant distribution
playbook that you created.
I understand you co-authoredthat.
I thank you profusely for thisplaybook.
I teach it to my filmmakers.
It's it's one of the mostimportant things I have to read.
So explain to our audience whatit is, please.
SPEAKER_00 (30:57):
Oh, that's great.
Um, we're so happy that you umare using it.
So the distribution playbook isa wonderful open source resource
that was co-authored by ChristyMarchese, my business partner,
and um Emily Best at Ced andSpark.
And it really came out of a needto, you know, um share um all of
the information they both haveand had about distribution um in
(31:18):
the modern landscape.
So it's not necessarily aboutKinema or Ced and Spark.
Those certainly are a part ofit, but it's about um much more
than that and what distributionlooks like in the modern
landscape, how to find um theinformation you might need from
fundraising to um differentparts of the filmmaking process
(31:41):
to building a team.
Um so it's really um a vastresource on um a lot of topics
and a way to find moreresources.
There's case studies in therethat from folks who have found
success um in alternativedistribution.
Um so we certainly recommendchecking it out.
It's thedistributionplaybook.com.
It's updated pretty frequentlyand has a lot of resources um
(32:03):
that, like I said, are uh areabout, but more than just, you
know, Kinema and Orseed andSpark.
Um so yeah, we certainlyrecommend you check it out.
SPEAKER_02 (32:12):
Yes.
And can you share a couple ofthe insights?
Because it is really a greatbook.
SPEAKER_00 (32:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um so some of them talk aboutthings like, you know, um the um
the important things to do umduring fundraising that'll
affect your distribution.
So for example, um making surethat, like we said before, um
Carol, that, you know, up to 50%of your budget is allocated for
(32:40):
um distribution as you come toit.
Um there's a lot of there's alot of information in there
about how to um understand umall the sections of the
distribution waterfall and allthe pieces of pie and your types
of rights.
So making sure that um beforeyou get to distribution, you
understand what your options arefor your theatrical rights and
(33:00):
your non-theatrical rights andyour streaming rights, um, and
how to make sure you maximizeall those, um, what deal making
looks like from um traditionaldistributors.
So you know how to identify gooddeals and bad deals and when to
take one or when to walk away.
Um, so there's a lot ofinformation there that I think
really helps uh folks understandwhat that landscape looks like
(33:22):
because you know it's verydynamic, certainly, but there's
also so many options availableto you as a filmmaker on where
to take your project and yourasset um and how to monetize it.
Um so understanding all thosedetails, I think, is um is super
important, even down to like,you know, what is a minimum
guarantee?
Um, and how does that um um payout?
(33:45):
And you know, what does that umwaterfall look like if you um um
um what's left to you after youpay out the waterfall?
SPEAKER_02 (33:56):
Right.
Yeah right and understanding thewaterfall.
SPEAKER_00 (34:01):
Certainly, exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:03):
But see, you are the playbook is the most honest
thing I have ever read.
Do not expect to getdistribution, you say, boldly.
You need to realize that youprobably won't.
You're going to have to do ityourself.
So here's what you need to do.
And then, you know, it's facereality.
(34:25):
Uh and and for filmmakers, thisis exactly what they need to
hear early on.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
Absolutely, yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
And I know that filmmakers often uh worry about
losing rights or revenue indistribution, but they don't
when they work with you, right?
So explain how you empowercreators to retain control and
build long-term audiencerelationships.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Oh, yeah, great question.
Um, I mean, this is happening inso many other industries, Carol.
Like we're seeing people in, youknow, use Substack in writing to
publish their own stories,people using Patreon to own
their own audience in music.
Um, so we're happy it'shappening in the film and people
are able to take back control oftheir content.
So kinema is non-exclusive, youknow, um, that's not like a
(35:11):
thing you need to ask for withus.
It's just our standard terms andconditions.
Um, and we really tried to buildKinema to be um um additive to
your distribution plans.
So your film is always yours,your data is yours, and it's
always your asset.
Um, and kinema is just yourpartner in distribution.
Um, so we often also want toremind people that you know you
(35:32):
don't need to use Kinema foreverything.
And it's not an sort of uheither or.
It can often be an and and it'san additive platform.
You may say, you know what, Ihave this great distribution
deal for um theatrical in um theUS and Canada.
On Kinema, you can just unselectUS and Canada, geoblock those,
(35:53):
and still run with us in therest of the world.
Um, and more than that, youknow, like I mentioned before,
you get access to your audiencedata.
And the ideal outcome for Kinemalong term is that um filmmakers
are able to begin to own theiraudience.
And um, by doing all this hardwork of um alternative
distribution, um, you willidentify, engage, and then
(36:15):
retain your audience.
So now you've done with yourfirst film.
When it comes to your secondfilm, you now have this treasure
troce of information of folksthat you've watched your first
film who are interested in whatyou have to say and interested
in your voice and are ready tocome watch your next film.
And so all that work you did inyour first film helps you the
next time.
And instead of um the platformsowning that um asset, now your
(36:39):
film is not just your asset, butyour audience is also a big part
of um your business and yourfilmmaking career.
SPEAKER_02 (36:46):
Right.
Well, um, because you are soforward thinking, um to have
cannabis sitting there when weall were became locked down and
and virtual screening was in itsinfancy, it was perfect for you.
So looking ahead, what trends inindependent film distribution
(37:09):
excite you the most?
SPEAKER_00 (37:12):
Oh, great question.
Um I mean, I think this thisidea of people being able to
take control of their content isjust is is really exciting.
And like I said, we're seeing ithappening in so many other
industries across the uh cratereconomy.
Um, and so I think what I wouldlove to see happen, let's say
over the next five years, um, isto see alternative and active
(37:35):
distribution become kind of thenorm instead of the fallback.
I think oftentimes we seefilmmakers say, okay, I didn't
get distribution.
Now I'm gonna go to kinema or toactive or self-distribution.
So many names for it.
Um, so I think it'd be reallyinteresting, and we're starting
to see this now, um, but to seeover the next few years um the
(37:56):
shift continue to happen wherepeople are building films for
active and self-distribution.
Um, and that becomes a big partof the standard distribution
landscape.
Um and I think that's a big umthing for us, certainly at
Kinema.
Um, but I think it's a big um,it should be a good great goal
for the industry at large.
SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
Absolutely.
Finding your audience, and Ithink that filmmakers seem to
promote themselves more.
I think they have they need todo introductions before the
film.
SPEAKER_00 (38:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (38:30):
Here I am, I'm a filmmaker, I made this film for
you.
Let me know what you think aboutit.
I want you, I thank you forwatching my film and being part
of my community, because that'sthat's what's gonna have to
happen.
And then the next film theymake, they already have an
existing community.
Uh, I've seen filmmakers whomake films in one subject and
(38:52):
then switch, choose a differenttopic, and lose their audience.
So most people realize to get anaudience behind them and keep
making films of similar contentto maintain that.
So I hope you know that helps,right?
SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
You've seen absolutely.
I always tell filmmakers don'tunderestimate the authenticity
and the power of your own voice.
I mean, I think people want toconsume content from the people
who create it.
That's becoming more and more ofthe norm.
Um, and like when you're doingmarketing, you the fact that a
filmmaker is behind their ownfilm and out there saying, hey,
watch this thing I created.
(39:28):
Yes, we see as being incrediblypowerful.
SPEAKER_02 (39:32):
Absolutely.
I think that's a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00 (39:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:35):
Uh the last question
hope to leave for filmmakersbeyond Canema as a platform in
terms of how films are shared,supported, and experienced?
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
Great question.
We also at Kinema, we reallythink seeing films socially is
so important.
So I think the biggest legacyis, you know, um helping to be a
part of the change in umfilmmakers, you know, owning
their own content, all things wetalked about a lot.
But the second thing is alsomaking filmmaking or the
consumption of films and viewingfilms um less of a side-load
(40:10):
experience you do on your ownand also a very social thing.
We we we put a lot of time intoour the event side of Kinema,
in-person events, virtualevents, and we see people really
engage with the topic of thefilm um and want to talk about
it.
Um, even if it's they're they'renot showing up in person, but
they're showing up virtually.
Um, they really love to be ableto um experience things
(40:32):
together.
Um, I mean, you know, the silverscreen has been such an
important part of our culturefor so many years.
And as theater closes closeddown across the country and the
world, people need a space to umview things together, talk about
them, and come to an event.
Um, and so we think socialcinema um is still has a very
(40:54):
important place um in ourculture, um, in the revenue
model for films.
Um, we think that certainly theplace that happens might change.
It may move from a theater tothe screen, it may move from a
theater to a mixed-use space.
Um, but we think it's certainlya very important part of um the
way forward and the part thatwill still persist.
SPEAKER_02 (41:16):
Thank you so much.
Um, what I love about you andKenema is that you're it's not
just your vision, but it's yourgenerosity.
You build systems that work forfilmmakers and you share what
you're learning along the way.
This is so important.
So thank you very much, Rish.
This has been a very thoughtfuland inspiring conversation.
(41:40):
And what I want to take away,thank you.
So you're just full of guidanceand information.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
Thank you, Carol.
It's so amazing to be here.
And likewise, I mean, from theHeart Productions and the
podcast is such an amazingorganization, and um, it's your
dedication to filmmaking andindependent filmmakers is
evident, and this is a fantasticresource in itself for everyone
interested in the industry andum in filmmaking.
SPEAKER_02 (42:08):
Thank you.
That's so kind of you.
So, what I want filmmakers totake away from today is
distribution doesn't have to besomething that happens to you.
It can be something you activelyshape with intention, community,
and clarity about your values.
So, uh from the heart, we reallybelieve in supporting
(42:30):
filmmakers, not just withfunding, but with education,
strategy, and trusted partners.
So, conversations like this arepart of that mission, helping
you to see the bigger pictureand make empowered choices for
your work and your future.
So, all of us, thank you fromthe art of film funding.
(42:52):
And we want you to keep trustingyour voice, keep building your
community, and keep movingforward one step at a time.
So we will see you in anotherweek.
Thank you very much.
Bye for now.
Today's conversation is especially meaningful because
it sits at the intersection ofdistribution, community, and
creative sustainability.
Three areas that matter deeplyto filmmakers navigating today's
rapidly changing landscape.
Carol and I are honored towelcome Rich Agarwal, the
(01:40):
co-founder and COO of Kinema, agroundbreaking platform that is
redefining how films reachaudiences through community-led
screenings, filmmaker ownership,and direct relationships with
viewers.
Rich's work has helped thousandsof filmmakers move beyond
(02:03):
traditional gatekeepers and intoa model that values connection,
transparency, and long-termimpact.
Kinema is a technology-drivenglobal screening and streaming
platform designed to democratizefilm distribution and empower
(02:23):
independent filmmakers.
Before launching Kinema, Richwas a principal at Human
Ventures, where he supported andinvested in early stage startups
across a wide range ofindustries.
Prior to that, he worked inFinTech, leading strategic
(02:43):
projects at Transactis ahead ofits 2019 acquisition by
MasterCard.
At Kinema, he championscommunity-led screenings,
virtual events, direct audiencerelationships, and most recently
partnered with Show and TellFilms to expand resources and
(03:07):
education for filmmakers withinthe Kinema ecosystem.
And Carol, I know that you andfrom the heart refer Kinema to
your sponsored filmmakers.
SPEAKER_02 (03:18):
Yes, we do, Claire, because it is a brilliant way to
distribute your film.
Wonderful people, caring,nurturing, supporting.
And thank you, Rich, for joiningus.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Thank you so much, Claire and Carol, for having me.
I'm so excited to be here todayand excited for our
conversation.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
Yes, we're going to have a good time.
I want you to tell us about yourjourney, how your early
experience in global developmentand tech led you to build
Kinema.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I started out with a briefstint in global development,
mostly focused on things likewater, sanitation, hygiene,
working with groups like DoctorsWithout Borders and Charity
Water.
And I love that time so much.
It holds a very special place inmy heart.
But I always felt that, youknow, I wanted to see how we
could achieve more scale, whichis what led me to the sort of,
you know, the tech world, mostlyout of it with a perspective of
(04:09):
business for good.
So I spent some time in FinTech,mostly working on taking um at a
firm called Transactus, takingour technology and trying to
expand it to small businessesand really helping to
democratize access to thosetools in healthcare and across
small business.
(04:29):
After we exited that company toMasterCard, I worked in a firm
called Human Ventures asprincipal.
And my role was two things.
It was investing in super earlystage startups, but also helping
build startups from the groundup with experienced founders.
That's where I met ChristyMarchese, my now business
partner and the CEO of Kinema,who had, you know, a lot of
(04:54):
experience in filmmaking andmore so impact production and
impact distribution.
And, you know, we came to thisidea of how do we really help
figure out ways to helpindependent stories thrive in
light of all the things thatwere happening at the time.
So that was about five yearsago.
And now we um we're really happyto be building kinema and
(05:18):
working with filmmakers acrossthe country and the world.
SPEAKER_02 (05:21):
You certainly are, and they love it.
I've never heard anything bad.
All I get are great compliments.
SPEAKER_00 (05:28):
That's great to hear.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
Yes.
Tell us how your background intech informed the way you lead
kinema today.
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Absolutely, yeah.
Um, I mean, kinema, it's it'sit's it's uh we really try to
build um the best technology umpossible for filmmakers to um
have the best shot at addingmore revenue streams, um
reaching their audience,engaging and maintaining that
audience, um, and still owningtheir rights and data.
Um so, you know, um we reallytry to build a full theater in a
(06:01):
box solution combined with anoperating system and full
insights.
Um, you know, all the bigplayers in the space today,
Netflix, all the streamers, um,and then all of the creator
economy um companies, um, youknow, from the social media ones
to the ones that are helping todemocratize access to content
and other verticals, SubstackPatreon, have so much technology
(06:24):
behind them, which is what makesit so powerful.
Um, not just, you know, theability to watch a video, but um
the ability to own youraudience, use data and all the
sophisticated marketing toolsthat are available to many other
industries.
And the goal is to really bringthat to Kinema, uh, bring that
into Kinema for filmmakers tomore effectively utilize um to
(06:47):
sort of supercharge theirdistribution, um, their
marketing, um, and really helpthem have all the world-class
tools that are available.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
So you say you you've designed it with a lot of
information, analytics forfilmmakers, right?
Which they don't get with anyother streamer.
They don't know who's watchingtheir material, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, I think in the traditionalstreaming distribution
ecosystem, um, you sort of, youknow, you lose your rights.
And a big part of that is youlose access to your data.
So you don't know who'swatching, um, where they're
watching from, who they are.
Um, and that becomes an issue.
Um, one, because um, you don'tget to um create that snowball
(07:32):
effect for yourself, right?
Like we see so many people havegreat success um in um the
creator economy space and themusic space because they get to
maintain their audience, right?
So um as a filmmaker, we thinkyou should be able to do the
same and have an audience thatcomes to see your film because
they want to see what you'remaking.
Um, your voice is authentic.
Um, so by by accessing your owndata, you're able to um engage
(07:56):
that audience in one project,carry them to the next one.
Um, do things like have an earlyPivot tour of your film and use
that data to influence how youmight want to do some in-person
or theatrical distribution.
Um so it allows you to be smartabout your distribution,
certainly, but it also allowsyou to really create um this
(08:18):
engaged audience that you knowcan be um sustaining for your
entire filmmaking career.
SPEAKER_02 (08:25):
Yes, Kid Hope uh and Stefan Follows were talking
about that just this last week,about how important it is uh to
um stream your informationbefore you just lock picture.
And uh and so are you doing anyof those where you're streaming
(08:48):
um a um a rough cut or a almostcompleted film to get feedback?
SPEAKER_00 (08:54):
Oh, it's a great idea.
Yeah, we actually do have somefilmmakers on the platform who
do that.
Um, and I think Kinem is a greattool for that.
It's not uh been as you know uma big part of our business to
date, but we're actively youknow encouraging folks to do
that because the information youget back is great.
It also creates a really goodfundraising opportunity.
Oftentimes you get to the end ofa film, and ideally, or
(09:17):
hopefully, you have you knowplenty of your budget left for
marketing and distribution.
But in some cases, there's ashortfall.
Those early press word-of-mouthfeedback screenings that you can
do using our virtual player, ourtechnology can help you drive
ticket sales or donations tocreate um a nice fundraising
moment to get feedback,certainly, but also to help um
(09:40):
fill those shortfalls.
SPEAKER_02 (09:42):
Yes, the feedback is what you need because you never
really know what until it's onthe big screen and you've got
people watching.
And then you have an opportunityto figure out who your real
audience is.
SPEAKER_00 (09:57):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
We've seen a lot of folks whowill join us at Kinema and have
a large screening virtuallythat's attended, you know,
really well by folks across thecountry and the world.
And, you know, after thescreening, we'll be able to send
them the data of um, hey, here'sanonymized data of where folks
were watching, right?
And you'll people are oftensurprised that, like, oh wow, I
(10:18):
have these really large pocketsof demand in places I didn't
necessarily expect.
Um, and that data is superhelpful for them to be able to
say, okay, now as I approach mytheatrical tour, um, this is
good information on where I canmaybe focus some marketing
efforts or focus some uh dollarsor um, you know, effort.
SPEAKER_02 (10:37):
And attached to other audiences of that are
similar, uh, that's what it'simportant to find your real
audience, as Keith says, um,right at show and tell, finding
your audience is the key.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
Yeah.
Um, if you ask me what I thinkthe biggest challenge and
therefore the biggestopportunity in independent
filmmaking is, I think it'saudience identification.
Um, especially when we talkabout independent film, um the
challenge of, you know, that thereason um all of the larger
streamers are are so powerfuland so um valuable to the market
(11:14):
is because um they own theiraudience, right?
So that's why they don't giveyou any data.
It's Netflix's product is thefact that they have an audience.
Um and so the ability forindependent films to say, hey,
okay, no, no, we're now gonna bethe ones who own the audience um
in a more democratized way issuper powerful.
And certainly it's doesn't comewithout work.
Um, but I think that's the thegoal of what we're trying to
(11:35):
build at Kinema is a way for youto own and maintain your own
audience um and identify themearly, acquire them and retain
them.
SPEAKER_02 (11:44):
Right.
Yeah, so uh you said that Canemawas born to um from a desire to
give filmmakers meaningful lifeoutside of traditional systems,
and this is very true.
The systems are not workingreally in independent filmmakers
(12:05):
to their benefit.
So, what was the catalyst forstarting this platform?
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
Oh, great question.
Um, yeah, so I mentioned I metmy NABIS partner, Christy, the
CEO of Kinevah.
Um, she had a previous companycalled Picture Motion, where she
spent a lot of time um doinggrassroots screening tours for
documentaries and other reallymeaningful films.
And through that work, shereally discovered that like um
they were like really buildingthese grassroots theatrical
(12:30):
distribution tours on the backof Excel map sheets and using
DVDs in the mail, and saw thatit might be a really good way to
give that tech that power tohave these in-person event
footprints to all independentfilmmakers.
Um, so that's really where thiscompany started.
We we started Kinema, it wasactually had a different name
(12:51):
back then, um, with an idea ofcreating a way for um filmmakers
to have um in-person events inmixed-use spaces, whether it's
libraries, churches, um, farms.
We've seen drive-ins for a longtime.
Um so that was the early versionof Kinema we built in about
2020.
Started, you know, launching thecompany and reaching out to
(13:14):
fundraisers, uh, to investors.
Um, and then uh COVID happenedand we're like, wow, well, we're
trying to build an in-personbusiness during March of 2020.
Um so that was an interestingtime.
But the benefit there is thatwe, you know, had all these
folks who were onboarding withus and ready to start their
tours for an in-person campaign,and we needed to quickly
(13:36):
transition them to somethingthat would work during that
time.
And that's how we built ourvirtual cinema, which is a
synchronous way to watch filmstogether across time zones with
a text chat and um livebroadcasting options after.
Um, and that really wassustaining during COVID, but we
also found that that was areally amazing way for
filmmakers to do things likepremieres, press greetings,
(13:58):
feedback screenings, all thatkind of stuff.
And so it became a big part ofour platform even as um the
COVID and the lockdown and thoseaspects uh faded away.
Um, so over time our platformjust kept evolving to meet um
new filmmaker needs and newmarket needs.
Um and we sort of, you know, tryto just be a place for
(14:20):
independent filmmakers and theirand their stories.
And we listened to them and keepbuilding more and more features.
Uh, we built on-demandscreenings so that people could
do more um sort of like pivotcampaigns and film drops, uh,
you know, full TVOT support,lots of additional um layers of
data and how you access that.
(14:42):
Um and so yeah, that's how itcame to be.
SPEAKER_02 (14:46):
And then, of course, you became a perfect place for
show and tell.
So uh tell me the vision behindthis partnership.
SPEAKER_00 (14:54):
Yeah, I mean, show and tell is a fantastic partner.
Um and um, they are amasterclass in distribution and
fundraising.
They offer education, coaching,community.
And so it's it's a really greatcombination because we've been
spending all our time, as wementioned, trying to build the
best in class technology fordistribution.
And Keith and the team at Showand Tell is just so amazing at
(15:15):
um the um the coaching and thelearning of what does
distribution look like um inthis in this new world.
Um, and so what's reallyexciting is that you know that
partnership is great.
And now, you know, filmmakers atKinema get access to show and
tell, which is so beneficial.
And folks at Show and Tell umget access to um Kinema's um
(15:38):
distribution services.
Um but what's really great is Ithink there's this much larger
community of businesses andorganizations that are committed
to helping independent storiesthrive.
We also have a partnership withSeed and Spark, which offers um
uh crowdfunding for filmmakers,um, and I think has um you know
really amazing success rates.
(15:58):
Um there's a lot of you knowpeople in this industry that are
really working hard to um helpfill um all these gaps and help
um create new systems umeducation and programs that um
make distribution andfundraising and all parts of
independent filmmaking a littlebit easier and a little bit more
(16:19):
sustainable.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
Will and Cedon Spark use your system for
crowdfunding?
SPEAKER_00 (16:27):
Yeah, so we have a partnership with Cedon Spark as
well.
Um Emily Best is a fantasticvoice and um contributor in the
space as well.
Um so Cedon Spark filmmakers whohave a fully funded um, and I
think in Cedon Spark, we'regreenlit film on Cedon Spark get
access to Kinema automatically.
Um and it's a really goodthrough line because we often
(16:50):
find that the folks that areworking on crowdfunding early on
are really entrepreneurial andhave a lot of the early um
support that it takes to doalternative distribution.
SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
Wow, that's wonderful.
So uh the Sedden Spark peopleare raising money to make the
film.
So they uh they use your uhdatabase for uh funding.
And so if you have show and tellCed and Spark, so you must have
a giant uh tech department.
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
Our team is mostly tech.
Um to clarify, we don't seed andspark doesn't use our um
database to um fundraise.
We we um um we keep thatprivate.
It's more that it's a we'rewe're a good pipeline for that,
for them to be able to dodistribution after the fact.
And oftentimes when you have umcrowdfunders and early
investors, they're like yoursort of super connectors to um
(17:44):
help you jumpstart alternativedistribution.
Um but yes, to your question, umour our team is mostly tech and
product focused, um, as well asa lot of folks who are um very
um either from or in tune withthe independent film space.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
Right.
Um well let's talk aboutinnovative tools that you have.
That which ones are you the mostexcited about right now,
especially for filmmakersseeking sustainable revenue
streams?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Um, it's a great question.
Um, I mean, I what I what'sexciting to me is that you know,
we build a lot of tools um thatare in and around um different
ways to distribute your filmunder your non-theatrical
license, under TVOD, um, youknow, we also offer series
support.
What's really exciting that Isee is the way filmmakers um,
the creativity we see, ourfilmmakers use those tools with.
(18:38):
Um so we're constantly amazedthat, you know, we have
filmmakers that really takeadvantage of our on-demand
screenings to do things likefilm drops and uh create really
good demand out of having um,you know, early, limited release
runs of a film.
Um so that's what's reallyexciting.
Um, I think that, you know, withthe data piece for us at Kinema
(19:00):
is our is sort of a reallyexciting part where we're trying
to put more time and um energyon our product team to build
more and more ways for you tomanage and access your data and
make it easier for you to um,like I mentioned, um, you know,
do sort of this reallyprofessional digital marketing
um with your film and have afeedback loop that um helps you
(19:21):
do that.
So I think that's a part of thecompany that we're um focused on
um improving even more overtime.
SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
Oh, wonderful.
So, what types of films andcreators tend to succeed on
Canada?
And what advice would you givefilmmakers beginning to explore
this model?
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Yeah, great question.
Um I mean, I think the um thejob of a filmmaker is becoming
increasingly hard.
Um, you have to make the film,you know, become a marketing
expert and um a business personall in one.
So it, you know, it takes a lot.
And I think, you know, all thework that Show and Tell and C
and Spark and all your podcastand from the Heart Productions
(20:00):
is doing is really important.
And what that's creating is thisreally entrepreneurial filmmaker
that, you know, I think whenthey understand early that, you
know, distribution is notsomething that you get, it's
something that you do, um,that's a big benefit because
that often means that they'recoming into distribution um with
a um with a treasure trove ofdata, of audience, and often at
(20:23):
least a little bit of budget umto do the work there.
Um and you know, we often saythat finishing the film is uh
unfortunately only half thebattle these days.
Um so that being said, what Ium, you know, I think we think
the filmmakers that do best onKinema are often the
entrepreneurial ones that eitherare ready to do it, um, some of
the hard work in and aroundmarketing and audience building
(20:44):
and engagement themselves orwith a partner or with, you
know, a team around them,hopefully.
Um and the advice is typicallythat I give to folks, um,
especially if you're, you know,in the early days of starting a
film, is it's never too early tostart um building your audience
and collecting that information.
Um, from the time you fundraiseum to your production, you know,
(21:07):
um, it's really about buildingcommunity um and having, you
know, the people that care aboutyour film, care about the topic,
um, as your sort of supportersand super connectors, because,
you know, one person who's asuper fan um is really worth,
you know, 10 people down theline or 100 people down the line
who uh may watch and uh be partof your audience and your
(21:28):
revenue model.
And the other piece of advice isto um fundraise early.
Um you know, I think it's um umyou know, building a budget for
a film is you know, filmmakerswant to make films, but you also
have to consider the fact that,you know, uh sometimes up to 50%
of your budget should bededicated to um distribution and
(21:50):
marketing.
Um and it can be a challenge tofinish a film and then um start
fundraising again thereafter.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Yes, this is a most important way to think.
We uh we always said aboutmotion picture films that came
out of the studios, whatever thebudget was, they had to spend
that again in marketing.
They would double the budget.
SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Totally, yeah.
Um, yeah.
I know, yeah.
It's hard.
It's hard.
And we're asking filmmakers todo a lot these days.
I I am very aware that if you'reum a filmmaker and you're
listening to this, it soundslike you're being asked to make
the film and then um build anentire business around it.
(22:33):
And well, I think that's true.
Um, and I think that, you know,as a filmmaker, you have to make
sure all the competencies arounddistribution, marketing um are
solved for.
I think the one thing I'd alsosay to filmmakers is that you
definitely don't have to do ityourself.
Um, you know, if you don't wantto um do marketing and it's not
your strong suit, um, you justhave to make sure that, you
(22:54):
know, you work with someone,whether it's an impact producer,
um, a a friend, um, someone youhire um that does it for you um
or with you.
Um so having a team around youis um I think a great way to
navigate um all the increasingchallenges.
That we talk about here when wetalk about distribution.
SPEAKER_02 (23:16):
Yes, that's true.
Well, let's talk about howKenyma supports both in-person
and virtual screening.
So they've got two formatsthere.
And they complement each other,right?
So how do they use both of themto get the most out of their
distribution?
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Oh, great question.
Yeah.
So I mean the way we buildKinema is to have a bunch of
options that suit you no matterwhat point at which you are in
in your distribution journey.
So we have a lot of folks thatuse Kinema for everything.
And what we really say is tothink about your distribution
waterfall and think about howyou can create demand and really
achieve that snowball effect ofearly releases that support
(24:01):
create demand and keep creatingmore and more demand, just like,
you know, theatrical windowscreate created demand for DVD
sales.
So in-person and virtualscreenings work really well for
that, where you can use avirtual screening to have a
really um sort of eventized andum exclusive premiere, for
(24:22):
example, right?
And that premiere will help yougenerate press, um, some funds,
maybe, um, and also someinformation about, like I said,
where your audience is.
And you can use that to thencomplement um and support your
in-person um tour.
Um, so we really see them assort of being distinct parts of
(24:43):
your distribution journey and umgood ways to sort of think about
how you can take thatdistribution waterfall um and
take, you know, the time of yourdistribution and really make
sure that each section of ithelps the next section become
more and more uh powerful.
SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
Yes, this is very important.
So, what do you think is onecommon distribution myth that
you wish filmmakers would stopbelieving?
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
Oh, that's a good one.
Um, I think that um, you know, Ithink I mentioned this earlier,
but I think the concept thatdistribution is something you
get um and not something thatyou sort of actively do um would
be the main myth.
I think is is is I definitelysee it changing in a lot of
folks and in a lot of filmmakersthat we work with.
(25:31):
Um, but um I think thedistribution landscape has
changed so significantly overthe past you know decade that um
while it might be nice to thinkthat, oh, I'm gonna make this
film, it's gonna go off intosomeone else's hands and I'll be
on the beach while the moneyrolls through my bank account.
That's often just not the casefor um filmmakers um in the
(25:51):
modern environment.
And active distribution isreally the way forward for um a
large percentage of the filmsthat are being made today.
Um, and that requires a lot ofwork, but I think that also is a
big opportunity for filmmakingand filmmakers.
Um, active distribution meansthat you get a lot more control
for doing that work.
(26:12):
Um, you get the access to youraudience, you get a lot more
insights.
Um, and ideally that becomeslike this asset you have in
addition to your film.
So whereas right now a lot ofthe platforms own the audience,
um, by being active aboutdistribution, um, independent
filmmaking as a community andindependent filmmakers can be
(26:34):
the one that have the controlover um that audience.
SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
Exactly.
Well, um are there genres orthemes that resonate especially
well on kinema?
SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
Oh, great question.
Um, we've seen with so manyfilms across genres and themes
do well on kinema.
Um, we do see documentaries doreally well um on the platform,
specifically because they oftenhave existing built-in
audiences.
Um and so when we talk aboutfinding your audience, it's
often about trying to find umthese hidden pockets of demand
for your film, right?
(27:08):
Um and for independentfilmmaking, in contrast to you
know, a four-quadrant film thatcomes out of a major studio, um,
that presents a challenge.
You know, how do you find folksthat are interested in this
somewhat um alternative or maybeniche segment?
Um, so for documentaries,because they are often part of
the issue area or movement thatthey are speaking about, um,
(27:31):
they're often connected with umgroups of um advocacy groups,
community groups, all thesefolks that care about the topic
and are there therefore um sortof pre-built audiences for them
to connect with.
Um so we see documentaries oftendo really well by being able to
connect with those folks, um,which is why I would, you know,
(27:52):
as you asked before, um I wouldsay like, you know, being able
to engage folks as you build afilm and make sure that you stay
part of those communities andyou're still top of mind for
those um communities is is soimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (28:06):
Well, as a um from the heart productions is a
nonprofit, as you know, we havea lot of filmmakers under our
sponsorship.
So Mark Murray, I've known himfor years, and Mark just
finished Baristas versusBillionaires.
Oh yeah.
Right.
And so he said, uh, you know, hewas looking for how to
(28:28):
distribute it.
And I said, well, you have to goread everything about Canada and
make a decision, but that'swhere I think you belong.
And he joined you, and he'sreally happy.
SPEAKER_00 (28:40):
That's amazing.
We'd love to hear that, Carol.
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah.
His documentary is on uh thepeople at Starbucks who tried to
unionize and of courseimmediately got fired.
SPEAKER_00 (28:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (28:55):
And uh, but it's so great to have um a place for
documentaries, uh short or long,it doesn't matter.
But this is uh the mostimportant thing right now
because, see, then he can usehis union groups and drive them.
SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Totally.
Um, the film is is fantastic,and I I love the name Breeson's
Virus Billionaires, um, has sucha good ring to it.
Um, I immediately caught my eyewhen I first saw it.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
Yes, and he's doing very well.
He's going to have hisCalifornia debut out here at the
Ethos Film Festival.
So I was very excited about hiswork with you.
SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
So um let's start with how filmmakers can reach
you and start uh learning whatyou do early in their career.
SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, first just reachout.
We we love to chat.
Um, we always are happy to hopon the phone and chat about, you
know, certainly what we do, butmore about your project and you
know, where Kanema might fit inand how it fits in.
Um, so you can email us at filmsat Kinema.com or just if you are
(30:06):
on our website, there's a buttonon most pages that says chat
with us.
Um and yeah, I mean, I thinkit's never too early to start
thinking about distribution.
And, you know, even if, youknow, let's say your focus is
not on active or alternativedistribution, whatever you want
to call it, um, it's it'scertainly important to have that
conversation early, um, just soyou're prepared for, you know,
(30:29):
um all the outcomes that um uhyou may encounter as you finish
your your film and your project.
SPEAKER_02 (30:37):
Well, that takes us to the brilliant distribution
playbook that you created.
I understand you co-authoredthat.
I thank you profusely for thisplaybook.
I teach it to my filmmakers.
It's it's one of the mostimportant things I have to read.
So explain to our audience whatit is, please.
SPEAKER_00 (30:57):
Oh, that's great.
Um, we're so happy that you umare using it.
So the distribution playbook isa wonderful open source resource
that was co-authored by ChristyMarchese, my business partner,
and um Emily Best at Ced andSpark.
And it really came out of a needto, you know, um share um all of
the information they both haveand had about distribution um in
(31:18):
the modern landscape.
So it's not necessarily aboutKinema or Ced and Spark.
Those certainly are a part ofit, but it's about um much more
than that and what distributionlooks like in the modern
landscape, how to find um theinformation you might need from
fundraising to um differentparts of the filmmaking process
(31:41):
to building a team.
Um so it's really um a vastresource on um a lot of topics
and a way to find moreresources.
There's case studies in therethat from folks who have found
success um in alternativedistribution.
Um so we certainly recommendchecking it out.
It's thedistributionplaybook.com.
It's updated pretty frequentlyand has a lot of resources um
(32:03):
that, like I said, are uh areabout, but more than just, you
know, Kinema and Orseed andSpark.
Um so yeah, we certainlyrecommend you check it out.
SPEAKER_02 (32:12):
Yes.
And can you share a couple ofthe insights?
Because it is really a greatbook.
SPEAKER_00 (32:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um so some of them talk aboutthings like, you know, um the um
the important things to do umduring fundraising that'll
affect your distribution.
So for example, um making surethat, like we said before, um
Carol, that, you know, up to 50%of your budget is allocated for
(32:40):
um distribution as you come toit.
Um there's a lot of there's alot of information in there
about how to um understand umall the sections of the
distribution waterfall and allthe pieces of pie and your types
of rights.
So making sure that um beforeyou get to distribution, you
understand what your options arefor your theatrical rights and
(33:00):
your non-theatrical rights andyour streaming rights, um, and
how to make sure you maximizeall those, um, what deal making
looks like from um traditionaldistributors.
So you know how to identify gooddeals and bad deals and when to
take one or when to walk away.
Um, so there's a lot ofinformation there that I think
really helps uh folks understandwhat that landscape looks like
(33:22):
because you know it's verydynamic, certainly, but there's
also so many options availableto you as a filmmaker on where
to take your project and yourasset um and how to monetize it.
Um so understanding all thosedetails, I think, is um is super
important, even down to like,you know, what is a minimum
guarantee?
Um, and how does that um um payout?
(33:45):
And you know, what does that umwaterfall look like if you um um
um what's left to you after youpay out the waterfall?
SPEAKER_02 (33:56):
Right.
Yeah right and understanding thewaterfall.
SPEAKER_00 (34:01):
Certainly, exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:03):
But see, you are the playbook is the most honest
thing I have ever read.
Do not expect to getdistribution, you say, boldly.
You need to realize that youprobably won't.
You're going to have to do ityourself.
So here's what you need to do.
And then, you know, it's facereality.
(34:25):
Uh and and for filmmakers, thisis exactly what they need to
hear early on.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
Absolutely, yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
And I know that filmmakers often uh worry about
losing rights or revenue indistribution, but they don't
when they work with you, right?
So explain how you empowercreators to retain control and
build long-term audiencerelationships.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Oh, yeah, great question.
Um, I mean, this is happening inso many other industries, Carol.
Like we're seeing people in, youknow, use Substack in writing to
publish their own stories,people using Patreon to own
their own audience in music.
Um, so we're happy it'shappening in the film and people
are able to take back control oftheir content.
So kinema is non-exclusive, youknow, um, that's not like a
(35:11):
thing you need to ask for withus.
It's just our standard terms andconditions.
Um, and we really tried to buildKinema to be um um additive to
your distribution plans.
So your film is always yours,your data is yours, and it's
always your asset.
Um, and kinema is just yourpartner in distribution.
Um, so we often also want toremind people that you know you
(35:32):
don't need to use Kinema foreverything.
And it's not an sort of uheither or.
It can often be an and and it'san additive platform.
You may say, you know what, Ihave this great distribution
deal for um theatrical in um theUS and Canada.
On Kinema, you can just unselectUS and Canada, geoblock those,
(35:53):
and still run with us in therest of the world.
Um, and more than that, youknow, like I mentioned before,
you get access to your audiencedata.
And the ideal outcome for Kinemalong term is that um filmmakers
are able to begin to own theiraudience.
And um, by doing all this hardwork of um alternative
distribution, um, you willidentify, engage, and then
(36:15):
retain your audience.
So now you've done with yourfirst film.
When it comes to your secondfilm, you now have this treasure
troce of information of folksthat you've watched your first
film who are interested in whatyou have to say and interested
in your voice and are ready tocome watch your next film.
And so all that work you did inyour first film helps you the
next time.
And instead of um the platformsowning that um asset, now your
(36:39):
film is not just your asset, butyour audience is also a big part
of um your business and yourfilmmaking career.
SPEAKER_02 (36:46):
Right.
Well, um, because you are soforward thinking, um to have
cannabis sitting there when weall were became locked down and
and virtual screening was in itsinfancy, it was perfect for you.
So looking ahead, what trends inindependent film distribution
(37:09):
excite you the most?
SPEAKER_00 (37:12):
Oh, great question.
Um I mean, I think this thisidea of people being able to
take control of their content isjust is is really exciting.
And like I said, we're seeing ithappening in so many other
industries across the uh cratereconomy.
Um, and so I think what I wouldlove to see happen, let's say
over the next five years, um, isto see alternative and active
(37:35):
distribution become kind of thenorm instead of the fallback.
I think oftentimes we seefilmmakers say, okay, I didn't
get distribution.
Now I'm gonna go to kinema or toactive or self-distribution.
So many names for it.
Um, so I think it'd be reallyinteresting, and we're starting
to see this now, um, but to seeover the next few years um the
(37:56):
shift continue to happen wherepeople are building films for
active and self-distribution.
Um, and that becomes a big partof the standard distribution
landscape.
Um and I think that's a big umthing for us, certainly at
Kinema.
Um, but I think it's a big um,it should be a good great goal
for the industry at large.
SPEAKER_02 (38:18):
Absolutely.
Finding your audience, and Ithink that filmmakers seem to
promote themselves more.
I think they have they need todo introductions before the
film.
SPEAKER_00 (38:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (38:30):
Here I am, I'm a filmmaker, I made this film for
you.
Let me know what you think aboutit.
I want you, I thank you forwatching my film and being part
of my community, because that'sthat's what's gonna have to
happen.
And then the next film theymake, they already have an
existing community.
Uh, I've seen filmmakers whomake films in one subject and
(38:52):
then switch, choose a differenttopic, and lose their audience.
So most people realize to get anaudience behind them and keep
making films of similar contentto maintain that.
So I hope you know that helps,right?
SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
You've seen absolutely.
I always tell filmmakers don'tunderestimate the authenticity
and the power of your own voice.
I mean, I think people want toconsume content from the people
who create it.
That's becoming more and more ofthe norm.
Um, and like when you're doingmarketing, you the fact that a
filmmaker is behind their ownfilm and out there saying, hey,
watch this thing I created.
(39:28):
Yes, we see as being incrediblypowerful.
SPEAKER_02 (39:32):
Absolutely.
I think that's a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00 (39:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:35):
Uh the last question
hope to leave for filmmakersbeyond Canema as a platform in
terms of how films are shared,supported, and experienced?
SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
Great question.
We also at Kinema, we reallythink seeing films socially is
so important.
So I think the biggest legacyis, you know, um helping to be a
part of the change in umfilmmakers, you know, owning
their own content, all things wetalked about a lot.
But the second thing is alsomaking filmmaking or the
consumption of films and viewingfilms um less of a side-load
(40:10):
experience you do on your ownand also a very social thing.
We we we put a lot of time intoour the event side of Kinema,
in-person events, virtualevents, and we see people really
engage with the topic of thefilm um and want to talk about
it.
Um, even if it's they're they'renot showing up in person, but
they're showing up virtually.
Um, they really love to be ableto um experience things
(40:32):
together.
Um, I mean, you know, the silverscreen has been such an
important part of our culturefor so many years.
And as theater closes closeddown across the country and the
world, people need a space to umview things together, talk about
them, and come to an event.
Um, and so we think socialcinema um is still has a very
(40:54):
important place um in ourculture, um, in the revenue
model for films.
Um, we think that certainly theplace that happens might change.
It may move from a theater tothe screen, it may move from a
theater to a mixed-use space.
Um, but we think it's certainlya very important part of um the
way forward and the part thatwill still persist.
SPEAKER_02 (41:16):
Thank you so much.
Um, what I love about you andKenema is that you're it's not
just your vision, but it's yourgenerosity.
You build systems that work forfilmmakers and you share what
you're learning along the way.
This is so important.
So thank you very much, Rish.
This has been a very thoughtfuland inspiring conversation.
(41:40):
And what I want to take away,thank you.
So you're just full of guidanceand information.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (41:48):
Thank you, Carol.
It's so amazing to be here.
And likewise, I mean, from theHeart Productions and the
podcast is such an amazingorganization, and um, it's your
dedication to filmmaking andindependent filmmakers is
evident, and this is a fantasticresource in itself for everyone
interested in the industry andum in filmmaking.
SPEAKER_02 (42:08):
Thank you.
That's so kind of you.
So, what I want filmmakers totake away from today is
distribution doesn't have to besomething that happens to you.
It can be something you activelyshape with intention, community,
and clarity about your values.
So, uh from the heart, we reallybelieve in supporting
(42:30):
filmmakers, not just withfunding, but with education,
strategy, and trusted partners.
So, conversations like this arepart of that mission, helping
you to see the bigger pictureand make empowered choices for
your work and your future.
So, all of us, thank you fromthe art of film funding.
(42:52):
And we want you to keep trustingyour voice, keep building your
community, and keep movingforward one step at a time.
So we will see you in anotherweek.
Thank you very much.
Bye for now.
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