May 6, 2026 • 45 mins
Jon has been at the forefront of independent film for decades. Today, we’re diving deep into what it really takes to get your film seen—and how to survive and succeed in a very challenging distribution landscape.
Jon Reiss is a filmmaker, author and media strategist who wrote the book Think Outside the Box Office. His company, 8 Above, creates custom audience-building strategies, theatrical experiences and digital release campaigns for independent feature and documentary films. Reiss has consulted with hundreds of filmmakers and film organizations throughout the world including The Gotham, IDA, Screen Australia, Film Independent, Creative Scotland. Current clients include The Librarians, Among Neighbors, Death and Taxes, 1800 On Her Own, Sabbath Queen, Food & Country, The Ride Ahead and The Body Politic.
He has conducted workshops on six continents and helped create and run the IFP/Gotham Filmmaker Lab for ten years. In 2023 he created the 8 Above Distribution Lab to teach filmmakers how to distribute and market their films. He writes about distribution and marketing on his 8 Above Substack.
Last year he co-founded the Future Film Coalition a new organization to research and advocate for the economic sustainability of independent film.
Jon got his start in filmmaking and distribution at the infamous San Francisco documentary collective Target Video. He not only shot seminal bands such as Black Flag, Iggy Pop, Throbbing Gristle, The Cramps but was one of the first – if not the first person to conceptualize and execute video tours throughout Europe, carting 500 lbs. of video deck and projector in a VW Bus across 15,000 miles.
8 ABOVE is a theatrical distributor and rights management partner dedicated to connecting award-winning independent films with audiences. Working in close partnership with filmmakers, 8 Above develops strategies that build community and social impact around unique theatrical experiences. Founded by distribution pioneer Jon Reiss, 8 Above has developed bespoke audience-building strategies and theatrical campaigns for independent films, specialty films, and documentaries, including The Librarians, Among Neighbors, 1800 On Her Own, Sabbath Queen, Food & Country, The Ride Ahead, The Body Politic, Sam Now, Two Gods, My Love Affair with Marriage, Maya Angelou: And Still I Rise, and Hooligan Sparrow.
Art of Film Funding Podcast Listeners can get a 6 month free subscription to Jon Reiss' Substack! You can access the free 6-month subscription offer here:
https://jonreiss.substack.com/subscribe?coupon=544beac3
Select a plan and then check the box that says "Apply 180 Day Free Trial" before checkout to get access for free.
Join our new educational platform From the Heart THRIVE and get free classes on film funding: https://fromtheheartproductions.thrivecart.com/from-the-heart-thrive/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
So glad you could join us on the Art of Film
Funding podcast.
I'm Claire Papan here with myco-host, Carol Dean, and today
we have a truly exceptionalguest, John Reese.
John is widely recognized as oneof the leading minds in film
distribution and marketing.
(01:33):
He's the author of the seminalbook Think Outside the Box
Office and the founder of EightAbove, a company dedicated to
building audiences and designinginnovative release strategies
for independent films.
Over the years, John has workedwith hundreds of filmmakers and
(01:55):
organizations worldwide,including The Gotham, IDA, Film
Independent, and ScreenAustralia.
His work spans consulting,theatrical distribution, and his
groundbreaking distribution lab,where he trains filmmakers to
navigate today's rapidlyevolving marketplace.
(02:20):
He also writes one of the mostinsightful substacks on film
distribution.
And today's attendees willreceive a free six-month
subscription, giving access tovaluable case studies and
industry tools, including hishighly requested platform
Comparison Cheat.
(02:41):
John has been at the forefrontof independent film for decades,
from his early daysdocumentarying punk icons like
Iggy Pop and Black Flag topioneering grassroots
distribution models that arestill influencing the industry
today.
Today, we're diving deep intowhat it really takes to get your
(03:05):
film seen and how to survive andsucceed in a very challenging
distribution landscape.
And Carol, I know you are a bigfan of John.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
Yes, I have been for a long time, Claire.
He's a genius in thedistribution world, and we
really thank you, John, forjoining us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Well, thank you, Carol.
I'm also a big fan of yours, andum, how could I not be a fan of
someone who also always calls mea genius?
So, but you do so much for thecommunity, Carol.
It's greatly appreciated, and Iam often um in you know engaging
with people that follow you.
SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
So oh, good to hear.
Thank you, John.
So um you've been at theforefront of distribution for
decades.
So, how would you describe thecurtain distribution landscape
for independent filmmakers?
SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
Challenging, but hopefully.
Let's put it that way.
Um it is probably one of themore challenging times um for
film distribution.
Um, I got involved in helpingother filmmakers after the
market collapsed in 07.
Um, and it's now collapsedagain.
(04:23):
Um, but in a sense, it it hasn'treally collapsed this time.
It's been more taken over by afew um media conglomerates.
And so it makes it, while on theone hand, it is there are more
and more tools to engageaudiences, and there's more and
more tools to do direct to fandistribution and to build
(04:46):
audiences for not only one filmbut for a career.
Those tools didn't exist asrobustly 15 years ago.
Um, it is still monetarilychallenging because most of the
money is being extracted by fivelarge corporations that you're
all very aware of, and who usedto contribute back to the
(05:09):
ecosystem in terms ofacquisitions, which then uh
helped funders, which createdthis, you know, somewhat
virtuous circle between uh filmfinancing and distribution, and
that's become disrupted.
Um, so that's you know, I alwaystalk about having a singular
goal for your distribution, andthat's money, change the world,
(05:33):
career, or audience, one ofthose four.
Um, and money is the mostchallenging um these days.
There's lots of techniques umto, you know, for films to help
change the world.
There's techniques to developaudience, although that's also
challenging because not only arethe global streaming platforms
(05:53):
um using techniques uh to uhcontrol audience attention, but
also um the large social uhcompanies such as Meta are doing
the same.
So it's a very competitivelandscape.
So that's it, that's why ittakes a lot of forethought and
(06:13):
um acknowledgement fromfilmmakers to essentially
survive in today's landscape.
SPEAKER_02 (06:19):
Yes, because there are too many uh windows of
engagement between YouTube andon and on, John the games.
Everybody wants your time.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah.
That's why I yes, there's somuch content.
We're definitely in an age ofabundance and not just an
abundance of film, but anabundance of social media
content, books, music, etc.
Um, so it's for audiences, it'snot just a matter of if they'll
give you money for what you areoffering, but if they'll give
(06:52):
you your time, their time.
Sorry, if they'll give you theirtime for what you're offering,
whether they'll give you that 90minutes for watching a feature
film when there's so much elseavailable to them.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Yes, this is very important.
So let's get into why it'simportant for filmmakers to
start thinking aboutdistribution at the inception of
their project.
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
Well, I think um I've been saying this for many
years.
Um, I'm also a filmmaker, so Iunderstand at the inception,
some people don't want to thinkabout audience, they just want
to be creative, et cetera.
And you it's but after you writethat script, you should evaluate
um, you know, what the marketpotential is and how you're
(07:39):
going to distribute and marketthat film, because it doesn't
really exist now where someone'sgonna come along and uh say, oh,
I love your project, and here'sa check, and I'm gonna make all
your dreams come true.
That almost never really trulyexisted, but it did exist for
some filmmakers and now maybehappens for 0.001% of
(08:02):
filmmakers.
So the other 99.99% offilmmakers need to make a plan.
And I am finally seeing, aftersaying this for 15 plus years,
um, that filmmakers are finallygetting it.
So we're gonna talk about mydistribution lab in a bit, but
um, in the current uh fictionsection of the distribution lab,
(08:26):
six of the projects are in thescript stage.
So um they're they'rerecognizing that they need to
know distribution and marketing.
They know that their funders areasking what is the distribution
and marketing plan.
So that's the first thing.
So they need to, they know theyneed a solid plan to convince or
talk to funders or not justconvince, but to engage with
(08:48):
funders about what the plans arefor the film.
Um, but also there are thingsthat you can do from early on
that will help you distribute inyour and and market your film
later.
There's content that you cancreate.
Um, there's some films are nowengaging audiences very early on
and developing an audience overtime, um, etc.
(09:11):
And those techniques exist andyou know, there are a lot of
work, but it is possible, andfilmmakers are doing this.
SPEAKER_02 (09:20):
Amazing.
I'm so happy to hear thatbecause that's what gets the
thought.
Oh, I want to make this film.
Are you prepared for six yearsfor a documentary?
Yes.
Okay, then who's your market?
That should be your nextquestion.
And I'm so happy to hearfilmmakers are coming too early.
Uh, so really, how shouldfilmmakers approach budgeting
(09:44):
for distribution and marketing?
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Do it early.
So I, you know, as an overall umapproach, I think look at it
this way if you don't budget fordistribution and marketing at
inception, the universe doesn'tknow you need the money.
Right.
So at the very least, createthat budget so that, you know,
(10:09):
I'm lived in California nearlyall my life.
I live in New York now, but um,it's that kind of manifesting
thing.
If even if you don't believe, Ido feel that there's some sort
of sense that even okay, so ifyou don't believe in manifesting
and don't believe that theuniverse will help you provide
you with these resources, atleast you know that you need to
(10:32):
re to raise this money.
Um, and so in in terms of whatthat budget is, uh I'm I created
in my book, Think Outside theBox Office, I there is um I
created this concept of the new50-50, which is 50% of your
time, money, and energy shouldgo into making the film, and 50%
(10:53):
of your time, money, and energyshould go into connecting that
film to an audience, hencedistribution and marketing.
So that's not a hard and fastrule.
Um, you'll see the studios whowill often spend more money.
They'll make a film for$200million and they'll spell spend
$300 million on distribution andmarketing.
So that's even say$60,$40 theother way.
(11:13):
Um, but with lots of films, um,you know, if you're making a
film for$50,000, you should bethinking about$50,000,$70,000,
$100,000 for distribution andmarketing.
You'll be way better off thanthe filmmakers who aren't doing
that.
Um, and if you make a film, ifyou're lucky enough to make a
film for$2 million, you probablydon't need$2 million to
(11:35):
distribute and market the film,but you probably should be
thinking about somewhere between$100,000,$300,000,$400,000, you
know, to distribute and marketthe film in the way that you you
want to do it.
But that gets down to you can'treally create a budget until you
have a plan, because the plan isthe basis of the budget.
So the first thing to do is tocreate a distribution and
(11:55):
marketing plan, know whatelements that you're going to
have.
Like, are you going to do atheatrical release, which is
expensive or not?
You know, are you going to hirean impact producer and for how
long?
You know, maybe you're hiringmultiple impact producers if
that's super important, in onecovering one area, one covering
another area.
All these things will determinewhat the budget is, and that
(12:16):
hence you need to create a planbefore you create a budget.
But that it's essential, I feel,to create that budget from the
beginning.
SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
Right.
Well, let me ask you do you doconsultations uh with people?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Yeah, so we do consultations with people.
Um, and we also have thedistribution lab.
And so um, if you're interested,on our website are forms, and
basically we meet with peopleevery couple of weeks in these
informal sessions where weexplain how we work with people,
um, and then you tell us aboutyour projects and et cetera.
(12:53):
And so, and we get a sense ofwhether consulting is better,
you know, might be better foryou or the lab might be better
for you.
So it's there's um two mainoptions of working with us.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Wonderful.
Okay, so you said the landscapeis not great right now.
What are the biggest challengesthat filmmakers are facing
today?
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
Money.
SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
Great.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
You know, so that's it's you know, it's tough
because, you know, like look,the PBS was gutted, you know,
they're still going, you know,the the strands, uh, independent
lens and POV are stillfunctioning, but they don't have
the resources they used to have.
Um there's um the streamersaren't really acquiring very
(13:43):
much content at all.
They're making it themselves umgenerally.
Um they acquire a few things andthey're paying much less than
they used to.
Um, that's making investorsnervous um about whether to
invest.
And um so and it does cost moneyto make a film and cost money to
release a film.
(14:04):
And the avenues of revenue forthose, there are depending on
your film, they can be good orthey can be challenging.
So if your goal is money, um inmy opinion, the the key thing to
do is to find an underservedaudience that wants to be served
by media.
(14:25):
So they're find an audience thatis dying to have their story
told.
So a case in point is thelibrarians, which we worked on.
We um advised them to start as aconsultation, and then we ended
up doing a theatrical release.
And the this film is about uhschool librarians and local
librarians on the front lines ofbook banning in the United
(14:46):
States, which is happening allover the place.
Um, and these librarians weredesperate to have their story
told and to be able to use thatfilm as a tool to communicate
what they're going through toother people.
And those librarians becamesuper spreaders of the uh and
super organizers of the film inall their in not all their
(15:08):
communities, but many multiplecommunities across the country.
So that leading to uh two, youknow, I think we're over 200
cities for the theatricalrelease.
I think there were over athousand requests for community
screenings.
There's just a huge pent-updemand for this, to just give an
example.
Um and so that's you know, findan audience that's underserved
(15:31):
and serve them well is you knowis what I would suggest for
financial success.
Um that's a lot of.
SPEAKER_02 (15:40):
Yes, thank you.
Well done.
Well, what about the concept ofaudience building and and why
it's so central to everythingyou do at eight and above?
Let's get into that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
Yeah, so I think, you know, how we view audience
building in general is to buildan audience not just for one
film, but to build an audiencefor your career.
Um, and even when I hear backfrom filmmakers, well, I make
different kinds of films.
Well, there's probably somethrough line, some creative
through line or stylisticthrough line, or even your
(16:15):
authentic self through line.
Since you're the maker andyou're making multiple projects,
how do you how can you engagepeople in your creative process,
your ideas?
And people because people wantto want to, you know, hear about
why films are created.
They want to know aboutcreators, etc.
So that's um one of our keyprinciples.
(16:38):
The other is that no one else isgoing to develop this audience
for you.
Um, there's no other companiesout there, or very, I mean,
there are some, but you have topay them.
Um and there's no one really,there's no just there's very,
let's put it this way, I won'tsay none.
There's very few distributorsout there.
(16:59):
As I said earlier, 99.9% offilmmakers aren't working with a
distributor that is going tohandle marketing for their film.
So it's kind of on you todevelop that audience.
And it so we talk about veryspecific ways of identify
audience identification anddifferent paths to engaging
those audiences.
(17:20):
Um, and in general, we feel thatit's a longish road and that the
earlier you start, the betteroff you are, at least in terms
of identifying your audience.
And if you can engage thataudience in the making of the
film, all the better for it.
Um and you know, I'm talking tofilmmakers, and I being a
(17:40):
filmmaker myself again, Iunderstand how hard that this
is, and it's not necessarily afilmmaker's skill set.
A lot of filmmakers are, youknow, not facile with social
media.
Um, and so if that's the case,then bring someone on your team
who is facile with social media.
Many years ago, I was kind oflike pilloried for saying fire
(18:03):
your DP and hire a PMD.
Because if you don't like to dosocial media, if you don't like
to do distribution andmarketing, you as a filmmaker
can probably shoot your ownfilm.
But if you can't do the socialmedia and marketing, then maybe
your resources should go intothat and maybe you should think
about shooting your own film.
Now, that's like I make thesestatements to get people to
(18:26):
think, right?
So the new 50-50 is a way foryou to think about, oh, I need
to, you know, plan for this, youknow, and same thing with that
last statement.
It's you know, it's a way foryou to think about that there's
essentially a new kind of worldout there, and um and the the
sooner filmmakers adjust to it,the better.
(18:49):
And the people who are moresuccessful are the ones that
adjust to it and plan for it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
Right.
PMT.
I remember I love that.
You're a producer, yourmarketing director, producer of
the market.
SPEAKER_00 (19:00):
Well, producer of marketing and distribution is
what the PMD stands for.
There's also another term that'skind of come up lately that
Emily Best is promoting alongwith uh I've this really
brilliant person, Ivan Asquith,um, who we had as a guest in my
distribution lab, um, called thecommunity producer.
So it's not someone I find thata producer of marketing
(19:24):
distribution, there's only somany of us, to be honest.
I work as one when we doreleases, and it takes a very
broad skill set of knowingmarketing and knowing all
aspects of distribution.
And there are not that manypeople out there that know that.
But a lot of the work is inaudience building and hence this
idea of a community producer,which isn't just an impact
(19:47):
producer, but for any kind ofcommunity, for any kind of film,
to have this concept of acommunity producer, I think is
you know, is a wonderful idea.
SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
Exactly, because this is what you're making the
film for, this community.
So that's only natural.
But I had one filmmaker who wasdesperately trying to get people
to join her social networkbecause she had a potential
distribution with a streamer,but she didn't have enough
(20:16):
social network numbers.
Her numbers weren't high enough,she had to raise it about 2,000
names.
Right.
Right.
So people so she didn't knowthat till she got all the way to
the end of her film, and then itwas a distraction.
She wasn't marketing orproducing the film anymore, she
was audience building at thewrong time.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
Yeah.
Proper prior planning preventsperplexing problems.
That was drill.
I had a drill sergeant for myseventh grade uh algebra teacher
and uh a former Marine drillsergeant, and he probably said
that every day.
So it's like, and it just, youknow, uh has stuck with me.
(20:58):
Let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
It's great.
It's great.
So tell us how you work withfilmmakers through your
counseling.
SPEAKER_00 (21:05):
And yeah, so we do so we do consultations, and
that's includes watching thefilm and then two hours of
consultation, and then you cando more hours after that.
Most filmmakers do.
Um, and then we also have adistribution lab.
Um, so one of the things in mybackground um is when after I
(21:25):
wrote the book, I did thesetwo-day workshops all over the
world, literally on sixcontinents.
Um, didn't get to Antarctica anddidn't get to teach the penguins
or the scientists aboutdistribution and marketing, but
that's and that's fine.
Um, and then Ted Hope and I uhhelped transform the IFP
Roughcut lab into a finishingdistribution and marketing lab,
(21:47):
and I helped run that for 10years.
But that finished a few yearsago, and then also when the
current crisis happened, afriend of mine encouraged me and
said, maybe it's time to start alab again.
Um, and I did.
And um, and it's a six-monthprogram.
Uh, we meet every week.
Um, every month I'm in thesessions three times a month,
(22:12):
and then the filmmakers meet ontheir own.
And you're essentially learninghow to do distribution and
marketing under my mentorshipfor six months.
Um, and uh we also, so I dopresentations, um, but then we
also bring in guest experts fromaround the field, and these are
usually at the highest level ofindependent films.
(22:34):
So, for instance, uh the CEO ofKinema, Christy Marchese, uh CEO
of Together Films, uh SarahMoses, uh, the former CEO of
Letterboxd came in, DavidLarkin, etc.
So you're not only learning fromme, you're learning from these
experts, and you're alsolearning from each other.
And distribution and marketingcan be a very lonely um, even if
(22:58):
you have a team of people withyou, it can be a lonely um
endeavor.
So it's great to have a cohortof other filmmakers that you're
engaging with.
And I think filmmakers arereally eager for those cohorts
these days.
And what we found is that thesecohorts kind of stayed together
over time, even after the lab isover.
(23:19):
Oops.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what we've heard is thatthat's, you know, that cohort
aspect is one of the mostpopular aspects to it.
But also filmmakers come out ofit, they say that they've had a
mindset shift about not onlydistribution and marketing, but
also of filmmaking.
SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
Wonderful, wonderful.
So what makes Aid AboveDistribution Lab unique compared
to other training programs?
SPEAKER_00 (23:46):
Well, I don't know of almost any other programs.
Um and so I think it's kind ofunique in the landscape.
And the only one that I do knowof is there's one that's more
impact focused, then there'sanother one, but they only meet,
my understanding, the other oneonly meets once a month.
(24:07):
And so we meet every week, um,which I feel is you know pretty
important.
Plus, in addition to themeetings, there's a whole trove
of resources online.
So my past presentations, allthe guests that have come
through their presentations andinteractions with the
filmmakers, plus a lot ofdocumentation.
(24:28):
So there's sample budgets,there's sample even a form of
how to uh the best practices ofhow to gain email addresses at
screenings, you know, screeningstoolkits, sample uh press kits,
sample press releases, etc.
Those are all available in theback end.
SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
Oh, screening tool samples.
This is great.
Yeah, really wonderful.
Okay.
I want to talk about yoursubstat because it's a most
enjoyable thing.
Um, it's full of guidance.
You get to the nitty-grippy.
You don't give us this widearea, you hone in on important
(25:09):
things.
Guidance is what I've beenlooking for, and it's always
there.
And I sincerely thank you foroffering this free six-month
subscription to your Substackbecause this includes valuable
case studies and tools that I'msure you won't find anywhere.
Uh, so I want to tell theaudience you're gonna be sure
(25:30):
and sign up for that.
And there is a code which isHART, A-E-A-R-T 6, and it's all
lowercase uh before May 14th.
So thank you, John, for that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Yeah, I enjoy doing it, and it'sum, you know, I think it's it's
it serves what's interesting,kind of what we do is a little
bit of a um virtuous circle.
Um, so we do releases and so weexperiment with different things
during the releases, then we docase studies about it.
It also informs other thingsthat I write about on the
(26:06):
Substack, as well as also inwhat we teach in the
distribution lab.
So everything kind of like theconsulting, the distribution
lab, the substack, and thereleases that we do all kind of
feed into each other.
And I think we're pretty uniquein that area.
I don't know anyone who'ssimultaneously doing releases
(26:26):
and also teaching distributionmarketing um as avidly as we do.
SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
I agree totally.
So um you have uh you've been uhyou've been working with um the
industry, and so I wanted tofind out more about uh this um
black block the merger campaignand matters.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Yeah, yeah.
So so about a year and a quarterago, or just about a year ago,
me and a few other peoplestarted an organization called
the Future Film Coalition, um,which is an organization to
advocate for um the interests ofindependent film.
Um, because we realized that, asI mentioned, the media
(27:16):
conglomeration that's been goingon has been very damaging to our
field and ecosystem, plus manyother things that are damaging
to our ecosystem and making itmore difficult for filmmakers to
survive.
Um, and what we realized wasthat it wasn't just you know
techniques, it wasn't bad films,it wasn't anything else.
(27:38):
That is is it was that therewere systemic structural issues
within our economy which werehampering us.
And so we banded together tocreate an organization to
advocate for filmmaking for filmindependent film, but across the
landscape.
So we have a brand, we have sixbranches.
(27:58):
So there's a filmmaker branch,there's a distributor branch,
there's an exhibitor branch, sofestivals and theaters.
Um, there's a um communicationsand media branch, so for
publicists, impact producers,social media journalists, etc.
Um, there's also a branch forartist support organizations
such as um such as uh Gotham andIDA, et cetera.
(28:23):
We have I think I think 60organizations that are part of
our organization now.
Um and then we also have anat-large uh branch for funders
and lawyers and agents andmanagers and academics.
Um and actually today we arelaunching our membership
campaign.
There are, you know, there areguidelines for membership.
You have to have experiencewithin the field.
(28:45):
Um, but if you go tofuturefilmcoalition.org, um
there's a membership form andyou can sign up and sign up to
or apply to be a member.
Um, and then it goes through anapproval process.
So one of our we did actually,you know, a campaign last year
where we helped advocate for andachieve an independent film
(29:07):
carve out in the increasedCalifornia Film Tax Credit.
Um, but the biggest campaignthat we've been a part of is and
we actually initiated was theBlock the Merger campaign to try
to stop the merger betweenParamount and Warner Brothers.
And what are part of what we'reour industry is suffering is
(29:28):
from decades of consolidation,um, where um several now large
corporations have basicallyvacuumed up or bought and and
and and then eliminated umformer thriving independent
distributors, such as New LineCinema was bought by Time Warner
and then bought by Warner Bros.
(29:49):
And basically is now theirlibrary is part of Warner
Brothers, but they don't reallyexist anymore.
And Newline Cinema was athriving independent distributor
that would distribute lots ofindependent content and provided
a lot of revenue and and greatreleases for independent films,
and that doesn't exist, thatcompany doesn't exist anymore,
(30:09):
and there are very, very fewcompanies now that can exist in
the current landscape.
Um so um I sometimes joke that Istarted the or I helped start
the future film coalition to putmyself out of a job.
So, because if we had a thrivinguh ecosystem for independent
film, people wouldn't need me asmuch.
(30:30):
So um, and uh so please put meout of a job.
So um and so you can so theBlock Their Merger campaign also
has a uh petition that you cansign, and we encourage people to
sign it.
It it's probably up to 5,000signatures now, but the more the
merrier.
(30:50):
Um, and it has a quite a numberof prominent people who have
signed on to it, from DamonLindehoff to um Gina Gershon to
um, you know, many people I'mblanking on the names, but uh
Mark Ruffalo um and et cetera,who's one of our biggest
proponents and uh of the Blockthe Merger campaign.
(31:12):
And um so please sign that.
And you can get that, you canyou can also find the petition
um on Future Film Coalition.
Um, but you can also gostraight, frankly, you can go
straight to blockthemerger.com.
Also on blockhthemerger.com, notto take up too much time with
this, there if you have a storyabout how you have been affected
(31:35):
by media consolidation, um,meaning so even if you're you
know not in like even if you'resay you were a grip on TV shows
being produced in Los Angeles,um, and now you're out of work.
And part of the reason you'reout of work is because you know
the kinds of productions aren'tbeing made in Los Angeles
(31:56):
anymore because of a right,whatever variety of reasons, um
we are collecting stories in oneof the, and this is what we've
been told is that this is a veryimportant element of uh the
Block the Merger campaign is tohear stories from people
actually in the industry of howthey've been affected by media
(32:18):
consolidation.
Um, and so if you're a theaterowner and you are suffering
under the restrictions that thestudios place on you in terms of
the kind of content that youhave to show in your if you want
this movie, then you have tohold it over for a whole month.
And if you want this one movie,then you also have to accept
program these three otherterrible movies.
(32:41):
And so that makes it hard foryou to function as an
independent theater.
Those kinds of stories, um thefull range of stories of how
media consolidation has infectedour industry are important.
So um if you want to help in thecampaign, the first thing is to
sign the petition.
Second thing is if you have astory, um, and also to spread
(33:03):
the word about the petition.
And the second thing is if youhave a compelling story about
how you've been affected, is towrite that up.
Um and you're welcome to writeit up anonymously if you don't
want to leave your name.
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Yes, stories are the best thing we have because we
are storytellers.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
Yeah, I was just gonna say that.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:23):
So we need that.
Okay, so let's get into uhrelease strategies.
What are some of the mosteffective theatrical or hybrid
release strategies that you'reseeing right now?
This is really important.
How do you get people out oftheir homes and into the
theater?
SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
Yeah, I mean that we're one of our clients coined
what we do call to um oh, let mejust rephrase that.
One of our clients um coinedwhat we do as impact event
theatrical.
Um and we find each of thoseelements, there the two elements
of impact and event are veryimportant.
(34:03):
So impact in terms of engagingaudiences and through
organizations and throughinterest groups to come out to
the theater.
So you're not just yes,publicity is important, yes,
organic social and paid socialare important, but what we found
is that organizationalpartnerships is one of the
(34:25):
strongest, if not the strongest,way to get butts and seats.
And it's not applicable to allfilms, it's a little bit more
applicable to documentaries, butit's I've had filmmakers in the
lab.
We're going to be doing a casestudy on the Substack next week
from one of the filmmakers inthe lab and who made a film
about a 15th-century English nunand how she's reaching out to
(34:48):
organizations and groups to getthem into theaters.
Um, and then the other essentialcomponent, in my opinion, is to
eventize your theatricalrelease.
And even if you're doingcommunity screenings, that's
what really helps get people outin into theaters, is if there's
an event component.
Um and so this could be anythingfrom you know the filmmaker or
(35:12):
the subject being present, uh,panel discussions with community
groups, but you can even doSandy Dabowski would do soul
spas in cities where he went,which weren't even part of the
theater, but as promotion, youknow, as part of a promotion,
but also it was part of hisbrand, and also something that
he loved to do is to bringpeople together and engage in
(35:33):
spiritual discussion and andritual.
Um so um there, the encampments,for instance, would after their
screenings, would bring peopleto a um Palestinian restaurant
and have dinner to havediscussions.
So you're basically it'sbasically sky's the limit in
terms of what you canpotentially do.
The one of the more famousexamples recently is the film
(35:56):
Eno, where every time that filmis shown, it's a different
version of the film.
Now, most filmmakers can't dothat, but it's a brilliant way
of advantizing um the theatricalexperience.
So that's those are what I wouldsay tried in true ways.
And that's what we did on thelibrarians.
And um, I kind of had toconvince them to try this one
(36:19):
night event.
It also, the other aspect ofadvantizing and the other way to
um kind of be successful is tofocus on one night, a one-night
event, because that timescarcity um also makes it so
that people are compet feelcompelled to get out of the
house.
It's like it's not going to beavailable any other way.
It's not available all everyday, you know, for a week or two
(36:42):
weeks.
It's only available one night.
Um, and so what we had on thelibrarians is where 47 cities
one night events sold out weeksin advance and turned into
week-long runs because it showedthe popularity and it created
that demand, that that scarcitycreated the demand for um for
the for the screenings.
(37:03):
Um, and then I would say alsoscarcity is a technique that
filmmakers are using, savilyusing throughout their releases.
Um, so for instance, you know,Sandy with Sabbath Queen, he's
doing in-person events for he'sinto his second year.
He's not putting it online.
There's many filmmakers who arenot putting their films online,
(37:26):
not putting it on what's calledtransactional video on demand,
because A, they enjoy theexperience with audiences in
person, but B, it they find thatthere's more revenue to be had
from these in-person screeningsthan you can often get in
transactional video on demand.
There's certain, you know, filmsthat are kind of unicorns that
(37:46):
can do both, such as Hundreds ofBeavers, which has such a crazy
intense fan base that even afterthey went on video and demand,
there was still demand forscreenings, and they did they're
still doing in-theaterscreenings.
It's it's crazy how how wellthat film is doing.
Um, but that's an outlier.
And so you have to kind of bestrategic about how you're
(38:10):
windowing out these variousrights.
Um, another example that I'musing in my presentations is
this, and we actually have acase study on my Substack with
um uh uh film 1946.
And so they did a very shorttheatrical release, then they
did these um home screenings umand um house house party
(38:34):
screenings, um, and then theyeventually went on video and
demand um onto Amazon andiTunes, but they're still doing
screenings all around the world,to be honest.
It's like it's amazing they'regoing to Africa next year.
And so they're still on video ondemand, they do educational and
on-demand screenings from theirwebsite, but they're still doing
(38:57):
these campaigns literally allaround the world in person.
So it's a matter of being verycreative um and intentional
about the windowing and how thatis is going to what's going to
essentially um be the best tomeet your goals.
And so essentially um it'scoming up with a strategy.
(39:19):
And so for me to create astrategy, and I've written about
this in my Substack, and I talkabout it this a lot, is that
there's these eight points thatI feel are essential to creating
a distribution and marketingstrategy.
I'm looking at the clock, Iactually have to go in a couple
of minutes for the distributionlab.
Um and so the first is knowingwhat your goal is.
(39:41):
Um, the second is understandingyour film and is it as good as
it can be?
And also what is the brand ofyour film and how does that
brand of the film relate to yourfilm brand?
Third is who is your audienceand um not only the audience
niches, but who what are thecore audiences within each of
those audience niches?
The fourth is how are you goingto reach that audience?
(40:04):
And so I break that down intowhat I call owned media or
what's known as owned media.
It's the the media that youfully control, like your
website, your email list, theextra content that you create,
all the marketing materials.
And then secondly, shared media,which is partnerships with
organizations, partnerships withinfluencers, and also organic
(40:25):
social.
Then earned media, which istraditional press, but uh as
important these days is audiencereviews.
And then last is paid media,which is like paid advertising.
Um, so that's four.
Then the fifth is what are thedistribution channels that are
available for you and how do youwork those and what makes the
most sense for your film?
(40:46):
So I break those down into eventtheatrical, um, into digital,
into educational, and intomerchandise, those four main
categories.
Um, then sixth is how do youwindow those rights in
relationship to each other?
Number seven, what are theresources that you have or that
you need to raise in terms oftime and money to execute that
(41:09):
release?
And then how does all of thisinfluence and relate to your
entire career as a filmmaker?
And so from those eight steps,and you can there, there's a
substack, there this is allwritten out in my substack.
There's a post about these eightsteps, so don't worry about
writing all this down.
But using those eight steps tocreate your distribution and
(41:29):
marketing plan.
And that's essentially what wedo in the consultations, but
it's also we go through thoseeight steps in the distribution
lab, and actually you'reactually presenting on these
different things, on thesedifferent attributes throughout
the course of the distributionlab as you create your own plan.
Um, but you can also be indistribution when you're in the
lab.
(41:50):
So it's every we take every thestages that you can be, you can
be everything from developmentor script stage all the way
through the beginnings of yourfestival release, I would say.
You can be at any stage in thatto be part of the lab.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
That's excellent.
For filmmakers just startingout, what are the biggest
mistakes you see and how couldthey do it differently?
SPEAKER_00 (42:13):
It's to not, I'll just summarize, to not think
about distribution and marketingwhen they're making their films
or even ideating their films,um, and to not make a
distribution and marketing planand not to budget for it.
That's the hugest mistake is tohave blinders on about this
essential component.
Um, and then I would say theother thing, it's not really a
(42:34):
mistake, but be aware of thelandscape and where it's at.
And, you know, you know, I'd sayif you apply to be a member of
the FFC and help us try tochange it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:45):
Okay, that's brilliant, John.
Thank you.
This has been an incrediblyinsightful uh interview.
Your knowledge, your passion forhelping filmmakers navigate
distribution.
And thank you everyone forlistening.
And don't forget that John isoffering a free six-month
subscription to his Substack,which includes valuable case
(43:08):
studies and tools that you won'tfind anywhere else.
So sign up using the code HART6before May 14th.
And if you're serious aboutgetting your film seen and
building a real audience, John'swork is essential.
So thank you for joining ustoday on the Art of Film Funding
podcast.
(43:28):
I'm Carol Dean with ClairePapin, with the nonprofit from
The Heart Productions, wherewe've been supporting filmmakers
with education and guidance infilm funding.
We're wishing you success ingetting your films funded,
finished, and distributed.
So join us next week for moreinsightful information.
(43:49):
Remember, you are the magic.
Hollywood needs you.
Thank you for joining us today.
Claire, thank you and John.
It was an honor to learn allthis.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
Well, thank you, Carol, and thank you, Claire.
Really appreciate it.
As you can see, I really enjoytalking about this.
Forever.
SPEAKER_02 (44:14):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (44:15):
Thank you.
So glad you could join us on the Art of Film
Funding podcast.
I'm Claire Papan here with myco-host, Carol Dean, and today
we have a truly exceptionalguest, John Reese.
John is widely recognized as oneof the leading minds in film
distribution and marketing.
(01:33):
He's the author of the seminalbook Think Outside the Box
Office and the founder of EightAbove, a company dedicated to
building audiences and designinginnovative release strategies
for independent films.
Over the years, John has workedwith hundreds of filmmakers and
(01:55):
organizations worldwide,including The Gotham, IDA, Film
Independent, and ScreenAustralia.
His work spans consulting,theatrical distribution, and his
groundbreaking distribution lab,where he trains filmmakers to
navigate today's rapidlyevolving marketplace.
(02:20):
He also writes one of the mostinsightful substacks on film
distribution.
And today's attendees willreceive a free six-month
subscription, giving access tovaluable case studies and
industry tools, including hishighly requested platform
Comparison Cheat.
(02:41):
John has been at the forefrontof independent film for decades,
from his early daysdocumentarying punk icons like
Iggy Pop and Black Flag topioneering grassroots
distribution models that arestill influencing the industry
today.
Today, we're diving deep intowhat it really takes to get your
(03:05):
film seen and how to survive andsucceed in a very challenging
distribution landscape.
And Carol, I know you are a bigfan of John.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
Yes, I have been for a long time, Claire.
He's a genius in thedistribution world, and we
really thank you, John, forjoining us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Well, thank you, Carol.
I'm also a big fan of yours, andum, how could I not be a fan of
someone who also always calls mea genius?
So, but you do so much for thecommunity, Carol.
It's greatly appreciated, and Iam often um in you know engaging
with people that follow you.
SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
So oh, good to hear.
Thank you, John.
So um you've been at theforefront of distribution for
decades.
So, how would you describe thecurtain distribution landscape
for independent filmmakers?
SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
Challenging, but hopefully.
Let's put it that way.
Um it is probably one of themore challenging times um for
film distribution.
Um, I got involved in helpingother filmmakers after the
market collapsed in 07.
Um, and it's now collapsedagain.
(04:23):
Um, but in a sense, it it hasn'treally collapsed this time.
It's been more taken over by afew um media conglomerates.
And so it makes it, while on theone hand, it is there are more
and more tools to engageaudiences, and there's more and
more tools to do direct to fandistribution and to build
(04:46):
audiences for not only one filmbut for a career.
Those tools didn't exist asrobustly 15 years ago.
Um, it is still monetarilychallenging because most of the
money is being extracted by fivelarge corporations that you're
all very aware of, and who usedto contribute back to the
(05:09):
ecosystem in terms ofacquisitions, which then uh
helped funders, which createdthis, you know, somewhat
virtuous circle between uh filmfinancing and distribution, and
that's become disrupted.
Um, so that's you know, I alwaystalk about having a singular
goal for your distribution, andthat's money, change the world,
(05:33):
career, or audience, one ofthose four.
Um, and money is the mostchallenging um these days.
There's lots of techniques umto, you know, for films to help
change the world.
There's techniques to developaudience, although that's also
challenging because not only arethe global streaming platforms
(05:53):
um using techniques uh to uhcontrol audience attention, but
also um the large social uhcompanies such as Meta are doing
the same.
So it's a very competitivelandscape.
So that's it, that's why ittakes a lot of forethought and
(06:13):
um acknowledgement fromfilmmakers to essentially
survive in today's landscape.
SPEAKER_02 (06:19):
Yes, because there are too many uh windows of
engagement between YouTube andon and on, John the games.
Everybody wants your time.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Yeah, yeah.
That's why I yes, there's somuch content.
We're definitely in an age ofabundance and not just an
abundance of film, but anabundance of social media
content, books, music, etc.
Um, so it's for audiences, it'snot just a matter of if they'll
give you money for what you areoffering, but if they'll give
(06:52):
you your time, their time.
Sorry, if they'll give you theirtime for what you're offering,
whether they'll give you that 90minutes for watching a feature
film when there's so much elseavailable to them.
SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Yes, this is very important.
So let's get into why it'simportant for filmmakers to
start thinking aboutdistribution at the inception of
their project.
SPEAKER_00 (07:18):
Well, I think um I've been saying this for many
years.
Um, I'm also a filmmaker, so Iunderstand at the inception,
some people don't want to thinkabout audience, they just want
to be creative, et cetera.
And you it's but after you writethat script, you should evaluate
um, you know, what the marketpotential is and how you're
(07:39):
going to distribute and marketthat film, because it doesn't
really exist now where someone'sgonna come along and uh say, oh,
I love your project, and here'sa check, and I'm gonna make all
your dreams come true.
That almost never really trulyexisted, but it did exist for
some filmmakers and now maybehappens for 0.001% of
(08:02):
filmmakers.
So the other 99.99% offilmmakers need to make a plan.
And I am finally seeing, aftersaying this for 15 plus years,
um, that filmmakers are finallygetting it.
So we're gonna talk about mydistribution lab in a bit, but
um, in the current uh fictionsection of the distribution lab,
(08:26):
six of the projects are in thescript stage.
So um they're they'rerecognizing that they need to
know distribution and marketing.
They know that their funders areasking what is the distribution
and marketing plan.
So that's the first thing.
So they need to, they know theyneed a solid plan to convince or
talk to funders or not justconvince, but to engage with
(08:48):
funders about what the plans arefor the film.
Um, but also there are thingsthat you can do from early on
that will help you distribute inyour and and market your film
later.
There's content that you cancreate.
Um, there's some films are nowengaging audiences very early on
and developing an audience overtime, um, etc.
(09:11):
And those techniques exist andyou know, there are a lot of
work, but it is possible, andfilmmakers are doing this.
SPEAKER_02 (09:20):
Amazing.
I'm so happy to hear thatbecause that's what gets the
thought.
Oh, I want to make this film.
Are you prepared for six yearsfor a documentary?
Yes.
Okay, then who's your market?
That should be your nextquestion.
And I'm so happy to hearfilmmakers are coming too early.
Uh, so really, how shouldfilmmakers approach budgeting
(09:44):
for distribution and marketing?
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Do it early.
So I, you know, as an overall umapproach, I think look at it
this way if you don't budget fordistribution and marketing at
inception, the universe doesn'tknow you need the money.
Right.
So at the very least, createthat budget so that, you know,
(10:09):
I'm lived in California nearlyall my life.
I live in New York now, but um,it's that kind of manifesting
thing.
If even if you don't believe, Ido feel that there's some sort
of sense that even okay, so ifyou don't believe in manifesting
and don't believe that theuniverse will help you provide
you with these resources, atleast you know that you need to
(10:32):
re to raise this money.
Um, and so in in terms of whatthat budget is, uh I'm I created
in my book, Think Outside theBox Office, I there is um I
created this concept of the new50-50, which is 50% of your
time, money, and energy shouldgo into making the film, and 50%
(10:53):
of your time, money, and energyshould go into connecting that
film to an audience, hencedistribution and marketing.
So that's not a hard and fastrule.
Um, you'll see the studios whowill often spend more money.
They'll make a film for$200million and they'll spell spend
$300 million on distribution andmarketing.
So that's even say$60,$40 theother way.
(11:13):
Um, but with lots of films, um,you know, if you're making a
film for$50,000, you should bethinking about$50,000,$70,000,
$100,000 for distribution andmarketing.
You'll be way better off thanthe filmmakers who aren't doing
that.
Um, and if you make a film, ifyou're lucky enough to make a
film for$2 million, you probablydon't need$2 million to
(11:35):
distribute and market the film,but you probably should be
thinking about somewhere between$100,000,$300,000,$400,000, you
know, to distribute and marketthe film in the way that you you
want to do it.
But that gets down to you can'treally create a budget until you
have a plan, because the plan isthe basis of the budget.
So the first thing to do is tocreate a distribution and
(11:55):
marketing plan, know whatelements that you're going to
have.
Like, are you going to do atheatrical release, which is
expensive or not?
You know, are you going to hirean impact producer and for how
long?
You know, maybe you're hiringmultiple impact producers if
that's super important, in onecovering one area, one covering
another area.
All these things will determinewhat the budget is, and that
(12:16):
hence you need to create a planbefore you create a budget.
But that it's essential, I feel,to create that budget from the
beginning.
SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
Right.
Well, let me ask you do you doconsultations uh with people?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:32):
Yeah, so we do consultations with people.
Um, and we also have thedistribution lab.
And so um, if you're interested,on our website are forms, and
basically we meet with peopleevery couple of weeks in these
informal sessions where weexplain how we work with people,
um, and then you tell us aboutyour projects and et cetera.
(12:53):
And so, and we get a sense ofwhether consulting is better,
you know, might be better foryou or the lab might be better
for you.
So it's there's um two mainoptions of working with us.
SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Wonderful.
Okay, so you said the landscapeis not great right now.
What are the biggest challengesthat filmmakers are facing
today?
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
Money.
SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
Great.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (13:20):
You know, so that's it's you know, it's tough
because, you know, like look,the PBS was gutted, you know,
they're still going, you know,the the strands, uh, independent
lens and POV are stillfunctioning, but they don't have
the resources they used to have.
Um there's um the streamersaren't really acquiring very
(13:43):
much content at all.
They're making it themselves umgenerally.
Um they acquire a few things andthey're paying much less than
they used to.
Um, that's making investorsnervous um about whether to
invest.
And um so and it does cost moneyto make a film and cost money to
release a film.
(14:04):
And the avenues of revenue forthose, there are depending on
your film, they can be good orthey can be challenging.
So if your goal is money, um inmy opinion, the the key thing to
do is to find an underservedaudience that wants to be served
by media.
(14:25):
So they're find an audience thatis dying to have their story
told.
So a case in point is thelibrarians, which we worked on.
We um advised them to start as aconsultation, and then we ended
up doing a theatrical release.
And the this film is about uhschool librarians and local
librarians on the front lines ofbook banning in the United
(14:46):
States, which is happening allover the place.
Um, and these librarians weredesperate to have their story
told and to be able to use thatfilm as a tool to communicate
what they're going through toother people.
And those librarians becamesuper spreaders of the uh and
super organizers of the film inall their in not all their
(15:08):
communities, but many multiplecommunities across the country.
So that leading to uh two, youknow, I think we're over 200
cities for the theatricalrelease.
I think there were over athousand requests for community
screenings.
There's just a huge pent-updemand for this, to just give an
example.
Um and so that's you know, findan audience that's underserved
(15:31):
and serve them well is you knowis what I would suggest for
financial success.
Um that's a lot of.
SPEAKER_02 (15:40):
Yes, thank you.
Well done.
Well, what about the concept ofaudience building and and why
it's so central to everythingyou do at eight and above?
Let's get into that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
Yeah, so I think, you know, how we view audience
building in general is to buildan audience not just for one
film, but to build an audiencefor your career.
Um, and even when I hear backfrom filmmakers, well, I make
different kinds of films.
Well, there's probably somethrough line, some creative
through line or stylisticthrough line, or even your
(16:15):
authentic self through line.
Since you're the maker andyou're making multiple projects,
how do you how can you engagepeople in your creative process,
your ideas?
And people because people wantto want to, you know, hear about
why films are created.
They want to know aboutcreators, etc.
So that's um one of our keyprinciples.
(16:38):
The other is that no one else isgoing to develop this audience
for you.
Um, there's no other companiesout there, or very, I mean,
there are some, but you have topay them.
Um and there's no one really,there's no just there's very,
let's put it this way, I won'tsay none.
There's very few distributorsout there.
(16:59):
As I said earlier, 99.9% offilmmakers aren't working with a
distributor that is going tohandle marketing for their film.
So it's kind of on you todevelop that audience.
And it so we talk about veryspecific ways of identify
audience identification anddifferent paths to engaging
those audiences.
(17:20):
Um, and in general, we feel thatit's a longish road and that the
earlier you start, the betteroff you are, at least in terms
of identifying your audience.
And if you can engage thataudience in the making of the
film, all the better for it.
Um and you know, I'm talking tofilmmakers, and I being a
(17:40):
filmmaker myself again, Iunderstand how hard that this
is, and it's not necessarily afilmmaker's skill set.
A lot of filmmakers are, youknow, not facile with social
media.
Um, and so if that's the case,then bring someone on your team
who is facile with social media.
Many years ago, I was kind oflike pilloried for saying fire
(18:03):
your DP and hire a PMD.
Because if you don't like to dosocial media, if you don't like
to do distribution andmarketing, you as a filmmaker
can probably shoot your ownfilm.
But if you can't do the socialmedia and marketing, then maybe
your resources should go intothat and maybe you should think
about shooting your own film.
Now, that's like I make thesestatements to get people to
(18:26):
think, right?
So the new 50-50 is a way foryou to think about, oh, I need
to, you know, plan for this, youknow, and same thing with that
last statement.
It's you know, it's a way foryou to think about that there's
essentially a new kind of worldout there, and um and the the
sooner filmmakers adjust to it,the better.
(18:49):
And the people who are moresuccessful are the ones that
adjust to it and plan for it.
SPEAKER_02 (18:54):
Right.
PMT.
I remember I love that.
You're a producer, yourmarketing director, producer of
the market.
SPEAKER_00 (19:00):
Well, producer of marketing and distribution is
what the PMD stands for.
There's also another term that'skind of come up lately that
Emily Best is promoting alongwith uh I've this really
brilliant person, Ivan Asquith,um, who we had as a guest in my
distribution lab, um, called thecommunity producer.
So it's not someone I find thata producer of marketing
(19:24):
distribution, there's only somany of us, to be honest.
I work as one when we doreleases, and it takes a very
broad skill set of knowingmarketing and knowing all
aspects of distribution.
And there are not that manypeople out there that know that.
But a lot of the work is inaudience building and hence this
idea of a community producer,which isn't just an impact
(19:47):
producer, but for any kind ofcommunity, for any kind of film,
to have this concept of acommunity producer, I think is
you know, is a wonderful idea.
SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
Exactly, because this is what you're making the
film for, this community.
So that's only natural.
But I had one filmmaker who wasdesperately trying to get people
to join her social networkbecause she had a potential
distribution with a streamer,but she didn't have enough
(20:16):
social network numbers.
Her numbers weren't high enough,she had to raise it about 2,000
names.
Right.
Right.
So people so she didn't knowthat till she got all the way to
the end of her film, and then itwas a distraction.
She wasn't marketing orproducing the film anymore, she
was audience building at thewrong time.
SPEAKER_00 (20:37):
Yeah.
Proper prior planning preventsperplexing problems.
That was drill.
I had a drill sergeant for myseventh grade uh algebra teacher
and uh a former Marine drillsergeant, and he probably said
that every day.
So it's like, and it just, youknow, uh has stuck with me.
(20:58):
Let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
It's great.
It's great.
So tell us how you work withfilmmakers through your
counseling.
SPEAKER_00 (21:05):
And yeah, so we do so we do consultations, and
that's includes watching thefilm and then two hours of
consultation, and then you cando more hours after that.
Most filmmakers do.
Um, and then we also have adistribution lab.
Um, so one of the things in mybackground um is when after I
(21:25):
wrote the book, I did thesetwo-day workshops all over the
world, literally on sixcontinents.
Um, didn't get to Antarctica anddidn't get to teach the penguins
or the scientists aboutdistribution and marketing, but
that's and that's fine.
Um, and then Ted Hope and I uhhelped transform the IFP
Roughcut lab into a finishingdistribution and marketing lab,
(21:47):
and I helped run that for 10years.
But that finished a few yearsago, and then also when the
current crisis happened, afriend of mine encouraged me and
said, maybe it's time to start alab again.
Um, and I did.
And um, and it's a six-monthprogram.
Uh, we meet every week.
Um, every month I'm in thesessions three times a month,
(22:12):
and then the filmmakers meet ontheir own.
And you're essentially learninghow to do distribution and
marketing under my mentorshipfor six months.
Um, and uh we also, so I dopresentations, um, but then we
also bring in guest experts fromaround the field, and these are
usually at the highest level ofindependent films.
(22:34):
So, for instance, uh the CEO ofKinema, Christy Marchese, uh CEO
of Together Films, uh SarahMoses, uh, the former CEO of
Letterboxd came in, DavidLarkin, etc.
So you're not only learning fromme, you're learning from these
experts, and you're alsolearning from each other.
And distribution and marketingcan be a very lonely um, even if
(22:58):
you have a team of people withyou, it can be a lonely um
endeavor.
So it's great to have a cohortof other filmmakers that you're
engaging with.
And I think filmmakers arereally eager for those cohorts
these days.
And what we found is that thesecohorts kind of stayed together
over time, even after the lab isover.
(23:19):
Oops.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what we've heard is thatthat's, you know, that cohort
aspect is one of the mostpopular aspects to it.
But also filmmakers come out ofit, they say that they've had a
mindset shift about not onlydistribution and marketing, but
also of filmmaking.
SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
Wonderful, wonderful.
So what makes Aid AboveDistribution Lab unique compared
to other training programs?
SPEAKER_00 (23:46):
Well, I don't know of almost any other programs.
Um and so I think it's kind ofunique in the landscape.
And the only one that I do knowof is there's one that's more
impact focused, then there'sanother one, but they only meet,
my understanding, the other oneonly meets once a month.
(24:07):
And so we meet every week, um,which I feel is you know pretty
important.
Plus, in addition to themeetings, there's a whole trove
of resources online.
So my past presentations, allthe guests that have come
through their presentations andinteractions with the
filmmakers, plus a lot ofdocumentation.
(24:28):
So there's sample budgets,there's sample even a form of
how to uh the best practices ofhow to gain email addresses at
screenings, you know, screeningstoolkits, sample uh press kits,
sample press releases, etc.
Those are all available in theback end.
SPEAKER_02 (24:48):
Oh, screening tool samples.
This is great.
Yeah, really wonderful.
Okay.
I want to talk about yoursubstat because it's a most
enjoyable thing.
Um, it's full of guidance.
You get to the nitty-grippy.
You don't give us this widearea, you hone in on important
(25:09):
things.
Guidance is what I've beenlooking for, and it's always
there.
And I sincerely thank you foroffering this free six-month
subscription to your Substackbecause this includes valuable
case studies and tools that I'msure you won't find anywhere.
Uh, so I want to tell theaudience you're gonna be sure
(25:30):
and sign up for that.
And there is a code which isHART, A-E-A-R-T 6, and it's all
lowercase uh before May 14th.
So thank you, John, for that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Yeah, I enjoy doing it, and it'sum, you know, I think it's it's
it serves what's interesting,kind of what we do is a little
bit of a um virtuous circle.
Um, so we do releases and so weexperiment with different things
during the releases, then we docase studies about it.
It also informs other thingsthat I write about on the
(26:06):
Substack, as well as also inwhat we teach in the
distribution lab.
So everything kind of like theconsulting, the distribution
lab, the substack, and thereleases that we do all kind of
feed into each other.
And I think we're pretty uniquein that area.
I don't know anyone who'ssimultaneously doing releases
(26:26):
and also teaching distributionmarketing um as avidly as we do.
SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
I agree totally.
So um you have uh you've been uhyou've been working with um the
industry, and so I wanted tofind out more about uh this um
black block the merger campaignand matters.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Yeah, yeah.
So so about a year and a quarterago, or just about a year ago,
me and a few other peoplestarted an organization called
the Future Film Coalition, um,which is an organization to
advocate for um the interests ofindependent film.
Um, because we realized that, asI mentioned, the media
(27:16):
conglomeration that's been goingon has been very damaging to our
field and ecosystem, plus manyother things that are damaging
to our ecosystem and making itmore difficult for filmmakers to
survive.
Um, and what we realized wasthat it wasn't just you know
techniques, it wasn't bad films,it wasn't anything else.
(27:38):
That is is it was that therewere systemic structural issues
within our economy which werehampering us.
And so we banded together tocreate an organization to
advocate for filmmaking for filmindependent film, but across the
landscape.
So we have a brand, we have sixbranches.
(27:58):
So there's a filmmaker branch,there's a distributor branch,
there's an exhibitor branch, sofestivals and theaters.
Um, there's a um communicationsand media branch, so for
publicists, impact producers,social media journalists, etc.
Um, there's also a branch forartist support organizations
such as um such as uh Gotham andIDA, et cetera.
(28:23):
We have I think I think 60organizations that are part of
our organization now.
Um and then we also have anat-large uh branch for funders
and lawyers and agents andmanagers and academics.
Um and actually today we arelaunching our membership
campaign.
There are, you know, there areguidelines for membership.
You have to have experiencewithin the field.
(28:45):
Um, but if you go tofuturefilmcoalition.org, um
there's a membership form andyou can sign up and sign up to
or apply to be a member.
Um, and then it goes through anapproval process.
So one of our we did actually,you know, a campaign last year
where we helped advocate for andachieve an independent film
(29:07):
carve out in the increasedCalifornia Film Tax Credit.
Um, but the biggest campaignthat we've been a part of is and
we actually initiated was theBlock the Merger campaign to try
to stop the merger betweenParamount and Warner Brothers.
And what are part of what we'reour industry is suffering is
(29:28):
from decades of consolidation,um, where um several now large
corporations have basicallyvacuumed up or bought and and
and and then eliminated umformer thriving independent
distributors, such as New LineCinema was bought by Time Warner
and then bought by Warner Bros.
(29:49):
And basically is now theirlibrary is part of Warner
Brothers, but they don't reallyexist anymore.
And Newline Cinema was athriving independent distributor
that would distribute lots ofindependent content and provided
a lot of revenue and and greatreleases for independent films,
and that doesn't exist, thatcompany doesn't exist anymore,
(30:09):
and there are very, very fewcompanies now that can exist in
the current landscape.
Um so um I sometimes joke that Istarted the or I helped start
the future film coalition to putmyself out of a job.
So, because if we had a thrivinguh ecosystem for independent
film, people wouldn't need me asmuch.
(30:30):
So um, and uh so please put meout of a job.
So um and so you can so theBlock Their Merger campaign also
has a uh petition that you cansign, and we encourage people to
sign it.
It it's probably up to 5,000signatures now, but the more the
merrier.
(30:50):
Um, and it has a quite a numberof prominent people who have
signed on to it, from DamonLindehoff to um Gina Gershon to
um, you know, many people I'mblanking on the names, but uh
Mark Ruffalo um and et cetera,who's one of our biggest
proponents and uh of the Blockthe Merger campaign.
(31:12):
And um so please sign that.
And you can get that, you canyou can also find the petition
um on Future Film Coalition.
Um, but you can also gostraight, frankly, you can go
straight to blockthemerger.com.
Also on blockhthemerger.com, notto take up too much time with
this, there if you have a storyabout how you have been affected
(31:35):
by media consolidation, um,meaning so even if you're you
know not in like even if you'resay you were a grip on TV shows
being produced in Los Angeles,um, and now you're out of work.
And part of the reason you'reout of work is because you know
the kinds of productions aren'tbeing made in Los Angeles
(31:56):
anymore because of a right,whatever variety of reasons, um
we are collecting stories in oneof the, and this is what we've
been told is that this is a veryimportant element of uh the
Block the Merger campaign is tohear stories from people
actually in the industry of howthey've been affected by media
(32:18):
consolidation.
Um, and so if you're a theaterowner and you are suffering
under the restrictions that thestudios place on you in terms of
the kind of content that youhave to show in your if you want
this movie, then you have tohold it over for a whole month.
And if you want this one movie,then you also have to accept
program these three otherterrible movies.
(32:41):
And so that makes it hard foryou to function as an
independent theater.
Those kinds of stories, um thefull range of stories of how
media consolidation has infectedour industry are important.
So um if you want to help in thecampaign, the first thing is to
sign the petition.
Second thing is if you have astory, um, and also to spread
(33:03):
the word about the petition.
And the second thing is if youhave a compelling story about
how you've been affected, is towrite that up.
Um and you're welcome to writeit up anonymously if you don't
want to leave your name.
SPEAKER_02 (33:16):
Yes, stories are the best thing we have because we
are storytellers.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
Yeah, I was just gonna say that.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:23):
So we need that.
Okay, so let's get into uhrelease strategies.
What are some of the mosteffective theatrical or hybrid
release strategies that you'reseeing right now?
This is really important.
How do you get people out oftheir homes and into the
theater?
SPEAKER_00 (33:42):
Yeah, I mean that we're one of our clients coined
what we do call to um oh, let mejust rephrase that.
One of our clients um coinedwhat we do as impact event
theatrical.
Um and we find each of thoseelements, there the two elements
of impact and event are veryimportant.
(34:03):
So impact in terms of engagingaudiences and through
organizations and throughinterest groups to come out to
the theater.
So you're not just yes,publicity is important, yes,
organic social and paid socialare important, but what we found
is that organizationalpartnerships is one of the
(34:25):
strongest, if not the strongest,way to get butts and seats.
And it's not applicable to allfilms, it's a little bit more
applicable to documentaries, butit's I've had filmmakers in the
lab.
We're going to be doing a casestudy on the Substack next week
from one of the filmmakers inthe lab and who made a film
about a 15th-century English nunand how she's reaching out to
(34:48):
organizations and groups to getthem into theaters.
Um, and then the other essentialcomponent, in my opinion, is to
eventize your theatricalrelease.
And even if you're doingcommunity screenings, that's
what really helps get people outin into theaters, is if there's
an event component.
Um and so this could be anythingfrom you know the filmmaker or
(35:12):
the subject being present, uh,panel discussions with community
groups, but you can even doSandy Dabowski would do soul
spas in cities where he went,which weren't even part of the
theater, but as promotion, youknow, as part of a promotion,
but also it was part of hisbrand, and also something that
he loved to do is to bringpeople together and engage in
(35:33):
spiritual discussion and andritual.
Um so um there, the encampments,for instance, would after their
screenings, would bring peopleto a um Palestinian restaurant
and have dinner to havediscussions.
So you're basically it'sbasically sky's the limit in
terms of what you canpotentially do.
The one of the more famousexamples recently is the film
(35:56):
Eno, where every time that filmis shown, it's a different
version of the film.
Now, most filmmakers can't dothat, but it's a brilliant way
of advantizing um the theatricalexperience.
So that's those are what I wouldsay tried in true ways.
And that's what we did on thelibrarians.
And um, I kind of had toconvince them to try this one
(36:19):
night event.
It also, the other aspect ofadvantizing and the other way to
um kind of be successful is tofocus on one night, a one-night
event, because that timescarcity um also makes it so
that people are compet feelcompelled to get out of the
house.
It's like it's not going to beavailable any other way.
It's not available all everyday, you know, for a week or two
(36:42):
weeks.
It's only available one night.
Um, and so what we had on thelibrarians is where 47 cities
one night events sold out weeksin advance and turned into
week-long runs because it showedthe popularity and it created
that demand, that that scarcitycreated the demand for um for
the for the screenings.
(37:03):
Um, and then I would say alsoscarcity is a technique that
filmmakers are using, savilyusing throughout their releases.
Um, so for instance, you know,Sandy with Sabbath Queen, he's
doing in-person events for he'sinto his second year.
He's not putting it online.
There's many filmmakers who arenot putting their films online,
(37:26):
not putting it on what's calledtransactional video on demand,
because A, they enjoy theexperience with audiences in
person, but B, it they find thatthere's more revenue to be had
from these in-person screeningsthan you can often get in
transactional video on demand.
There's certain, you know, filmsthat are kind of unicorns that
(37:46):
can do both, such as Hundreds ofBeavers, which has such a crazy
intense fan base that even afterthey went on video and demand,
there was still demand forscreenings, and they did they're
still doing in-theaterscreenings.
It's it's crazy how how wellthat film is doing.
Um, but that's an outlier.
And so you have to kind of bestrategic about how you're
(38:10):
windowing out these variousrights.
Um, another example that I'musing in my presentations is
this, and we actually have acase study on my Substack with
um uh uh film 1946.
And so they did a very shorttheatrical release, then they
did these um home screenings umand um house house party
(38:34):
screenings, um, and then theyeventually went on video and
demand um onto Amazon andiTunes, but they're still doing
screenings all around the world,to be honest.
It's like it's amazing they'regoing to Africa next year.
And so they're still on video ondemand, they do educational and
on-demand screenings from theirwebsite, but they're still doing
(38:57):
these campaigns literally allaround the world in person.
So it's a matter of being verycreative um and intentional
about the windowing and how thatis is going to what's going to
essentially um be the best tomeet your goals.
And so essentially um it'scoming up with a strategy.
(39:19):
And so for me to create astrategy, and I've written about
this in my Substack, and I talkabout it this a lot, is that
there's these eight points thatI feel are essential to creating
a distribution and marketingstrategy.
I'm looking at the clock, Iactually have to go in a couple
of minutes for the distributionlab.
Um and so the first is knowingwhat your goal is.
(39:41):
Um, the second is understandingyour film and is it as good as
it can be?
And also what is the brand ofyour film and how does that
brand of the film relate to yourfilm brand?
Third is who is your audienceand um not only the audience
niches, but who what are thecore audiences within each of
those audience niches?
The fourth is how are you goingto reach that audience?
(40:04):
And so I break that down intowhat I call owned media or
what's known as owned media.
It's the the media that youfully control, like your
website, your email list, theextra content that you create,
all the marketing materials.
And then secondly, shared media,which is partnerships with
organizations, partnerships withinfluencers, and also organic
(40:25):
social.
Then earned media, which istraditional press, but uh as
important these days is audiencereviews.
And then last is paid media,which is like paid advertising.
Um, so that's four.
Then the fifth is what are thedistribution channels that are
available for you and how do youwork those and what makes the
most sense for your film?
(40:46):
So I break those down into eventtheatrical, um, into digital,
into educational, and intomerchandise, those four main
categories.
Um, then sixth is how do youwindow those rights in
relationship to each other?
Number seven, what are theresources that you have or that
you need to raise in terms oftime and money to execute that
(41:09):
release?
And then how does all of thisinfluence and relate to your
entire career as a filmmaker?
And so from those eight steps,and you can there, there's a
substack, there this is allwritten out in my substack.
There's a post about these eightsteps, so don't worry about
writing all this down.
But using those eight steps tocreate your distribution and
(41:29):
marketing plan.
And that's essentially what wedo in the consultations, but
it's also we go through thoseeight steps in the distribution
lab, and actually you'reactually presenting on these
different things, on thesedifferent attributes throughout
the course of the distributionlab as you create your own plan.
Um, but you can also be indistribution when you're in the
lab.
(41:50):
So it's every we take every thestages that you can be, you can
be everything from developmentor script stage all the way
through the beginnings of yourfestival release, I would say.
You can be at any stage in thatto be part of the lab.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
That's excellent.
For filmmakers just startingout, what are the biggest
mistakes you see and how couldthey do it differently?
SPEAKER_00 (42:13):
It's to not, I'll just summarize, to not think
about distribution and marketingwhen they're making their films
or even ideating their films,um, and to not make a
distribution and marketing planand not to budget for it.
That's the hugest mistake is tohave blinders on about this
essential component.
Um, and then I would say theother thing, it's not really a
(42:34):
mistake, but be aware of thelandscape and where it's at.
And, you know, you know, I'd sayif you apply to be a member of
the FFC and help us try tochange it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:45):
Okay, that's brilliant, John.
Thank you.
This has been an incrediblyinsightful uh interview.
Your knowledge, your passion forhelping filmmakers navigate
distribution.
And thank you everyone forlistening.
And don't forget that John isoffering a free six-month
subscription to his Substack,which includes valuable case
(43:08):
studies and tools that you won'tfind anywhere else.
So sign up using the code HART6before May 14th.
And if you're serious aboutgetting your film seen and
building a real audience, John'swork is essential.
So thank you for joining ustoday on the Art of Film Funding
podcast.
(43:28):
I'm Carol Dean with ClairePapin, with the nonprofit from
The Heart Productions, wherewe've been supporting filmmakers
with education and guidance infilm funding.
We're wishing you success ingetting your films funded,
finished, and distributed.
So join us next week for moreinsightful information.
(43:49):
Remember, you are the magic.
Hollywood needs you.
Thank you for joining us today.
Claire, thank you and John.
It was an honor to learn allthis.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
Well, thank you, Carol, and thank you, Claire.
Really appreciate it.
As you can see, I really enjoytalking about this.
Forever.
SPEAKER_02 (44:14):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (44:15):
Thank you.
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