Rocket Networks Reach For The Stars

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Have you ever wondered what happens when the networks we build leave Earth's atmosphere? In this mind-expanding conversation with Lexi Cooper, Network Integration Engineer at Blue Origin, we explore the extraordinary world of rocket networking and witness firsthand the emotional impact of watching your work launch into orbit.

Lexi's journey defies conventional career paths—from hating her previous job to discovering networking at community college, live streaming her CCNA studies on Twitch, and landing at Blue Origin through what she calls "pure luck" when someone noticed her social media posts about BGP. Her story proves that intellectual curiosity and a willingness to learn publicly can propel careers to literal new heights.

We dive deep into the unique challenges of aerospace networking that terrestrial engineers rarely consider: the weight constraints that limit redundancy options, the extreme temperature fluctuations without air cooling, radiation testing for components, and the absolute necessity for deterministic networking when human intervention is impossible after launch. Lexi explains how every engineering decision becomes a complex risk assessment when the stakes include billion-dollar missions.

For aspiring rocket network engineers, Lexi offers invaluable advice: master networking fundamentals through certifications like CCNA, don't be intimidated by seemingly impossible job requirements, and develop a deeper understanding of the lower networking layers most engineers never explore. She emphasizes that no one is ever fully qualified for these unique roles—what matters most is demonstrating passion, adaptability, and a relentless desire to understand how things work.

Ready to expand your professional horizons? Join us for this inspiring conversation that will change how you think about networking and perhaps open doors to career possibilities you never imagined. Whether you're looking to break into aerospace or simply seeking fresh perspectives on your current role, this episode delivers insights that transcend terrestrial boundaries.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Art of Network Engineering, where
technology meets the human sideof IT.
Whether you're scaling networks, solving problems or shaping
your career, we've got theinsights, stories and tips to
keep you ahead in theever-evolving world of
networking.
Welcome to the Art of NetworkEngineering podcast.
My name is Andy Lapta and I amyour co-host.
I am your host, your co-host,and my job here is to try to use

(00:23):
the power of communication totell a story right.
Some stories are so profound,Some stories are so inspiring
Words fall short.
So I'm going to try a differentintro here and, if you'll
indulge me for 90 seconds, I'mgoing to see if this works and
we're just going to watchsomething and then, when we're
done watching this, I'm going tointroduce our guest and ask her

(00:45):
what this was like.
New Glenn is ready for launchof Blue Ring Pathfinder.
This is our first flight andour key objective today is to
reach orbit safely.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
GSM on flight level.
Take water start.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Three, two, 1, to power.
Now passing, got to orbitsafely.
Congratulations, blue Origin.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
Y'all have are with us.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Ladies and gentlemen, Lexi Cooper, what was it like
watching your network go tospace?

Speaker 3 (02:19):
It was surreal.
I'm going to be completelyhonest, that particular night.
We had already scrubbed once,right before that, a day or two
before that, and then thatparticular night I was like, oh,
we're probably going to scrubagain.
I don't really expect, you know.
And so I was.
I was live streaming with afriend, believe it or not, on
Twitch.
We were just hanging outtalking about cybersecurity and

(02:41):
networking and we were just like, oh, we'll hang out and watch
it.
And then when I realized like,oh shit, it's going to go, I was
like, hey, I taught Tibbs Hisname is Tiberius.
I had to go.
I was like I'm leaving and Ileft the stream live and just
went to watch it on the bigscreen with my partner and I
cried like a baby, baby.
It was surreal, dude.

(03:02):
I'm very proud, I'm still veryproud of that.
It was quite a night.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
You've been on a bunch of shows.
You've been a host on the Artof Network Engineering.
I heard you on Pack of Pushers.
I think you've told your storyenough times so we can touch on
that if we want.
But for people living under arock who don't know you, I mean
you hated your old career andjobs.
You moved back home, you wentto community college, you
discovered network engineering.
You got the bug, which is myfavorite part of every story,
that part when somebody is like,oh my god, this is how it works

(03:30):
.
Like holy shit, um, you got ajob at a knock, an incredible
knock at the ibm cloud place.
And then somebody saw you ontwitter at blue right and saw
your pure luck, absolute, pureluck.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
I'm so, so lucky that that happened.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, somebody just saw me on twitter, so but but
you were live streaming, I thinkanother.
So I a little bit of research.
I listened to your pack ofpushers episode today and I
remember you mentioning that Ithink you're live streaming.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
You're studying the most boring thing a person could
live stream is studying for theccmp.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
I watched you imagine , but I watched them.
I used to love watching yourstuff.
I loved watching you yell atcisco press.
It was my favorite thing in theworld because it's what I have
heard.
That's cathartic yeah it's whatI've been thinking every time I
read those books.
It's what I've thought foreverlike oh my god, the grammar.
And oh my god that you're stilltalking about the illustration
15 pages back.
I gotta look at like you peopleare driving me crazy.
So listening to you do it onthe streams, I'm like, yes, give

(04:25):
us a voice.
You know, but I guess theydiscovered you kind of there,
was that?
Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
So I've finally cleared it up because it's my,
my mentor now at work, like I'vebeen working with him ever
since Right, and like I finally,you know talked to him about
the full story Cause I.
I listened to him tell someoneelse you in like yeah, this is
the person who brought me in.
How did he find you?
So he was, uh, as he tells it,he was actually.
This is so.
This is so old school.

(04:52):
I love it.
He was on irc like message board, right, and someone else
actually saw my twitter postsand posted that to the irc and
that is how he found me.
So, just very legit.
Um, yeah, so that's how hefound he was.
He basically, I think he tellsit like yeah, I saw like you're
you were like shit posting aboutbgp and how annoyed you were

(05:14):
with it.
And I thought, yeah, thisperson probably needs to know
some stuff about bgp to becomplaining about it this much.
So then you know he.
He messaged me on twitter andwas like, hey, if you're
interested, because I had theNASA thing in my profile.
He's like, hey, if you'reinterested in working in
aerospace as an airwork engineer, here's some stuff you can look
into.
And I was like, whoa, that'scool, thanks for letting me know
.
We had a little conversationand a month or two later they

(05:37):
had an opening for an airworkengineer and he approached me
and was like hey, you shouldapply and you mentioned you
didn't think they were going toget the job.
You're like this is ridiculousno, and I actually told them I
did a first round interview withthem of just like sort of a
general not really supertechnical, just a general talk
with him and my you knowpotential future manager, and

(05:57):
afterwards you know they weregreat.
But afterwards I was likethere's no fucking way I can do
this and I emailed them it likeI would like to respectfully
withdraw because I don't thinkI'm right for this.
And they both emailed me backseparately and they were like
could you maybe reconsiderthough?

Speaker 1 (06:14):
And that's because you didn't feel ready.
You were relatively new incareer.
It was a terrifying job, breckdude.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
It was a terrifying job Breck, and that's the time
when I realized fully and trulyit is true job wrecks are all
wish lists for the ideal,perfect candidate.
They're not actually what youhave to have to get the job.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Was there a thing that they were like we don't
care that she's two and a halfyears in career and just got her
CCNA, we we're going to bringher on and we're going to send
new Glenn to Mars?

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Oh like why they chose me.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah, like what I mean.
So to your point, from yourperspective, you're like whoa,
this is terrifying, I'm notready for this.
They saw something in you,apparently, that you either
didn't see in yourself or itjust wasn't clear to.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
I still struggle to see it.
If I'm being 100% honest, Istill often feel unqualified for
this position that I've been infor almost four years now.
But you know, I've heard himsay some things.
Like you know, the importantstuff he saw right.
Like there's no way and I cantalk about this more if you guys

(07:21):
want, because it's aninteresting perspective but like
you can't really be fullyqualified for this job.
Like it's like he wasn't even.
He didn't have the experiencethat the ideal perfect candidate
would have when he came onboard.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
And he's the one that signed the network on the rock.
Are any of us ever fullyqualified for any of these jobs?
Right, good point, that's athink I belonged.
I didn't think I could get inAll the things you've said over
the years, which I think is justwhy I've always been such a big
fan of yours.
I'm like yes, yes, yes, likeit's entirely my story, and then

(07:51):
, years later, to find ourselvesin these roles.
They're terrifying to eventhink about, let alone say yes,
to let alone try enough to openourselves up to failure and like
all that stuff.
It's just but.
But there is, and again, we'vespent years on this show, I
think, trying to distill, youknow, the first hundred episodes
.
We're interviewing a hundredpeople on, like what?

(08:12):
How do you do it?
What's the secret sauce?
Right, and I don't know ifwe've ever gotten to it, but
there seems to be a core, likebeing a learner, right?
I think, like you showed,that's that's it.
I think, yeah, yeah, you haveto be like open to new ideas,
being willing to learn, beingwilling to fail, and I think you
learning publicly was brilliantin hindsight because, yeah,

(08:34):
what?

Speaker 2 (08:34):
else is better, right , william?
Like if you're gonna take there, I think, I mean, if I don't I
don't know anything about thenfl draft or these draft
processes except the nhl draft.
I like hockey, but it's almostlike a draft like you're
drafting for a team, the rightteam, you know.
If you see someone out therethat's thirsty, they're hungry.
You can actually see theirthought process and the way

(08:56):
they're learning and they'rethrowing stuff out there and hey
, if they don't know it, they'rereaching out, they're trying to
figure it out.
You can see that hunger, hunger.
You can see that thirst.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
I'd take that any day of the week over someone that
knows everything, that alreadyhas it all figured out that's
the consistent thing that I'veheard from more experienced
folks and also that I've come torealize myself when I start
looking for people, that I wouldyou know, because we're we're
high, we're higher intonetworking positions every once
in a while.
Right and like.
That's what I look for too.
So it's.

(09:25):
I think the term that I like touse the most to describe that
is intellectual curiosity.
You don't stop wanting to knowwhy, why, why, why?
Why In my previous career thatI hated, I got in trouble.
I got like written up basicallyor whatever the adult version
of that is, I don't know forlike asking why.

(09:46):
I'm sorry I have so muchdisdain still for that there's a
demerit there's trauma in there.
you can hear it my voice, um,but yeah, I I always wanted to
know why, I wanted to understand.
And I'm I'm not a savant, I'mnot genius, I don't think I'm
really that smart, but I justkeep digging into that rabbit

(10:06):
hole, like going down and likelearning things.
And that is really the key,like, if you want that, if you
have that passion, then this isa good place for you to be and
that's what people look for.
Right, because you can betaught.
Things like technical stuff youcan learn, right, as long as
you have that attitude, thatlearning attitude can learn
right as long as you have thatattitude, that learning attitude
.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
I always thought everybody was good at the same
things.
I thought that my struggles incareer, let's say was because I
didn't have the thing that allthe people had right.
As it turns out, our friendmike turned me on to now
discover your strengths, whichis this book, and I realized
like, oh, people are good atdifferent things, but the good
news is, you know, you have youhave, I mean honestly, you know.

(10:48):
It's like the fingerprint, like, oh, we're all special, right,
but like we all have theseunique combination of talents
that are valuable in thebusiness world and getting a job
.
I have been plagued by curiositymy whole life.
And I say plagued because, like, it never ends right.
I go down every rabbit hole andit's not super efficient If I
have to learn the thing, andthen I get interested in all

(11:09):
this other cool stuff.
Well, man, I've learned a lotof other things.
And then they're like, did youlearn the thing yet?
I'm like dude, but let me tellyou about these other 14 things
that are related.
So relatable, andy.
Right, I know, but curiosity ismagical, I think in this, like
how we're talking here, like ifyou're going to hire, like my
wife had a thing.
She played at a high level inbasketball and she always had

(11:29):
this saying, which I love youcan't teach hustle.
There's players who are goingto dive on the ball, jump on the
ground, wrestle for it, andthen there's players who were
never going to do that and youcan never teach an athlete to
hustle right.
And curiosity, I mean, I don'twant to say you can't teach
curiosity, but the curiouspeople I know, like myself and
you two, it's just a fire youcan't stop.
I don't know that you can teachcuriosity.

(11:53):
I don't know if you can.
I don't want to say you can't,but it doesn't appear to me you
can.
So my wife love her to death,married her best wife, mother in
the world.
She is not curious about almostanything, it's just not one of
her strengths.
She's amazing at what she'sgood at.
So again, I think that I'mamazed at your story and I'm
amazed that curiosity and beingwilling to learn in public seem

(12:14):
to be some secrets, thosesecrets we're trying to share
with the world, with thecommunity.
Right, what can I do to do thething or learn the thing?
Or, like man we've always said,create content.
Get out there, be vulnerable,do something.
You're streaming yourselflearning yelling at a book, like
if you look at that on, I can'tbelieve people watch that.
I loved it.
But if you looked at it onpaper you're like that's yeah,

(12:34):
because I've had super nerdslike go learn math and calculus.
Like you don't need to createcontent.
Okay, well, that's your path.
But like right, that's not mystrength.
I'm a communicator and soanyway, I know we're kind of I
lost.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Talk about paying off to, like, seeing that rocket
launch, like, if you think about, like, okay, like I remember
this one data center project Idid, you know, refresh some
hardware, configure, you know,by the time it was done, I'm
just like I'm out of here.
I don't want to see a router,you know.
Is it, you know, building orjust doing anything that
contributed to that thing goinginto space?
I can't imagine the feeling.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
I can't describe it.
Yeah, it was.
It was, and I'll tell you what.
I can't go into details,obviously, but like the one to
two weeks leading up to thatlaunch were like the most insane
I felt in my entire life, likein any career I've had it starts
to close in right, Like we'regetting.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
It wasn't even.

Speaker 3 (13:25):
I can't even I wish I could get into it, but it's
just like you know, technicalstuff comes up, you know, and
it's a week before launch, um,so it's, you know it.
It that launch was, I mean, theculmination of my career so far
.
I would say it was, it was, andwe did it.
I'm sorry, I'm just if I couldjust brag, we did it perfectly,
it was perfect, you know.
So obviously there's stuff wewant to improve which I can't

(13:47):
get into also, but like it's sovery, very, very proud.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
So we made it 20 minutes before you said I can't
talk about it.
No, it's good right.
No, no, no, don't be sorry,it's a new renard for me.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Like, if we mess something up, you know, maybe
like some financial, likesomething happens it's like, oh,
this broke and someone couldn'tuse an application.
You mess something up inaerospace and like, oh, that's a
problem, you know it's hugeimpact, you don't want to go
there.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
So this is a good segue.
I have some.
I have some questions that Ithought long and hard about, on
what Lexi might be able to talkabout, and obviously you're
going to tell us if you can't.
So I think that's a good segue,william, because I thought of,
like I don't know designprinciples right, like how what
would be some design decisionsyou might make in a general term
, that like is, on a vehiclethat you cannot dispatch to

(14:39):
console into there's someautonomous.
So in my, in my new role, we,we talk about these adventure of
the networks and theseautonomous, self-healing kind of
things and using some logic tohave the logic do the thing
instead of feeling right.
So I assume in a rocket right.
Again, I know we can't talkspecifics, but once you light
the candle, it's autonomous.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Oh, yeah, a lot of people.
Yeah, I can say that I meanlike it's a, it's a.
Yeah, I could tell you a littlebit about it.
It has to be right, like itdoes.
Yeah, it does.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
I mean I'm there's design considerations I guess
made like yes, there'sredundancy, but there's limited
space.
Yes, you can build resiliency,but weight is a thing like, so
you're under these constraints.
Nobody says you can't put thatmany switches in the data center
rack.
It's too heavy, but in a rocketright.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
So um, yeah, you're thinking about it exactly the
right way and we can tell you.
Know, I can't tell you how wesolve these problems
specifically, but those areabsolutely like.
You're on the exact right track, right like that's such unique
problems to space.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
You've talked about it like with radiation and
vibration and like I mean, Iwent down the rabbit hole today
and and thank god I got busywith something else at work and
couldn't, but I thought, okay.
So like I went nuts about, likeall right.
So you got packets flowingthrough.
You know, I don't know if it'sfiber or copper, she'll never
tell us it's fine, but like allright.
So like I'm thinking about whatEinstein said and warping time
and space with like speed anddistance and space.

(15:59):
I'm like no, I went nuts Right.
So then I'm thinking like, well, I wonder if, like the speed of
the vehicle, you know theymight be going 14,000 miles an
hour Like does that change howelectrical impulses are?
Like travel?
Like I just can't imagine andagain I know you can't talk
about it, but just the the crazycool stuff that you must have
to work on and test and check,you know, like, yeah, I don't

(16:21):
know how the hell to shield athing from gamma rays from the
sun, and was there a solar burstlast week?
And oh and like it's all justso amazing to me.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
Like you're thinking about it.
I mean, Andy, you're thinkingabout it like an architect, like
a designer, right?
That's how you think.
You have to think about it,though, right?

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Like you have to sort of like put your, you're
putting yourself in thearchitect, but that was new to
you.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
Right, you went from a knock to like, oh yeah, and I
let me be clear, I did notdesign anything right in this
network.
I am an integrator, which meansI take the hardware and the
firmware and the software andwhatever and I smush them all
together and I give all theseindividual like contributors
contributors feedback on howtheir stuff did and then, if
there needs to be tweaks, I testthe tweaks, and so on.
Right, I test the tweaks and soon.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Right, but I thought you were like.
I always considered you like,oh, like, you're the network
engineer on the rocket, but anintegrator, I guess, is
technically.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
I mean, I am a network engineer by trade, but
my my job title is networkintegration engineer, which
means that I, you know, I smoosheverything together and I see
how it works.
And then all these individualcontributors, like I said, we've
got embedded software folks,we've got a firmware team, we've
got hardware folks.
Like I give them all feedbackon how the device performed and

(17:35):
what the network looked like.
And even though I'm not anembedded software engineer or
like definitely not an EE, right, like I still can give them
useful feedback because I knowexactly how the network is
expected to perform.
And so together we work as ateam to figure out how to make
it and everything traverses thenetwork on the rocket.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
I'm assuming right, it does.
Yeah, like we just.
We just had we just hadsomebody.
Like we did cruise shipnetworking with a guy.
Well it was kind of neat, right,and he was talking about you
know, no-transcript, like oh, Igot to talk to the rocket guy

(18:32):
because you know his thing hasto steer and the nozzle thing.
And well, that latency isn'tbad.
And what about like it round?
Well, yeah, on like awhiteboard, like all right,
here's what we gotta do, andhere's all the constraints, like
how do we do this?
And then they're all justlooking at you like well, okay,
I'm lucky enough that I made.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
I actually made a little post about this the other
day on socials, and then I waslike I should not make this
permanent because people for myjob are gonna be like lexi, um,
but my, I am, I being a designer, so my mentor is the architect
of the network, so I didn'tdesign it.
He did, though, and so you know, that's why we we did a little
talk at cisco live this year,and that's why I was like really

(19:12):
the talk, I was there, but likeI was trying to get him on
stage.
So is that the tall guy I metat cisco?
yeah, eric, yeah, yeah, yeahyeah, he rocks, and I've been
trying to get him on stage totalk about this stuff and he
finally did this year.
Um, just a quick little plug.
It went great, if any, if it'son demand on on the cisco
learning network, uh okay, butanyway, we didn't talk and this

(19:33):
is put a link in there.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
I haven't seen that.
I'd love to see that.
You guys thought that's somerocket stuff oh yeah, we
definitely.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
It's called packets in space networking for the
final frontier man, I'm sorry Imissed that I will.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
That's a title right there.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
I like that what was it packets in space?

Speaker 3 (19:48):
packets in space networking for the final
frontier y'all are talking likeway cooler stuff.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Like I, I read this book called the martian like
years ago and you know what Ithought about like the whole
time as I was like reading thisbook is like man on earth.
I could transfer like a jpegfrom like Ashburn to Chicago in
this amount of time.
Well, mars is like like 150million miles away.
I don't know what the exactdistance is, something like that
.
Yeah, and how long would ittake to transfer that JPEG to

(20:13):
Mars?
28 days.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
It depends on the network you have connecting you
to Mars.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
What's your, what's your network doing?

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, that's one question I have is like you're
we're talking about, like thenetwork on the spacecraft, but
do you like?
What about everythingsurrounding the spacecraft?

Speaker 3 (20:31):
yeah, so that's a great, that's a great like.
Actually, we should clarifybecause some people, when I talk
to them, get a little confused,understandably, about what
network I actually work on.
So there's the rocket networkand that is my domain, and it is
a closed loop network whichmeans, like, for the most part,
that data is only flowing likewithin the rocket, and that's it
.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Right Telemetry.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
Yeah, but we do get telemetry on ground.
So there are radios and stuffthat like send it to ground in
certain ways, right, but for themost part, like it's an
autonomous vehicle, it's aclosed loop network.
All of that is talking.
That is my domain.
My domain is not the groundnetwork, which we have a whole
network engineering team thatmanages that just in Florida,
right, for just the groundnetwork, which in some places

(21:14):
does interface with the vehiclenetwork.
So you know, I have to workwith them.
And then we've also got likeTDRS, which is like the NASA
sending data down to ground andhow we manage that.
And then we've got vehiclerecovery.
When we recover the first stage, when it comes back down onto
the sea, onto the boat,basically like how are we going
to recover data right there?

(21:34):
Like there's a lot of differentnetworking things that have to
be addressed and they're alladdressed differently, right,
and my domain is solely therocket.
So there's a lot of interestingpeople to talk to actually out
there who know way more than Ido about all that other stuff.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, I watched something on NASA.
Nasa has like this deep spacenetwork thing and I watched a
YouTube video like it wasfascinating.
I need to go back and watch it.
A lot maybe changed and yeah,yeah, well, nasa has published,
published.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
You know nasa has some things that they can't
publicly like put out there, butthey do have a lot that they
can and do, and so anybody who'sjust like even passing,
interested in any of this stuffI do recommend you go watch some
stuff or read some stuff aboutthe deep space network and, um,
I think, even the european spaceagency, esa, they've they've
published some stuff about, likeeven, I think, what protocols

(22:24):
they have on some of theircrafts.
So it's an interesting read,like anything you can get about
that stuff.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
I.
I have some specific questionsI want to ask you and to to
preempt the you may not be ableto talk about it.
I've heard you say in otherplaces, publicly, that you're um
.
You know I can't talk about itbecause of different um.
I don't know if the regulationbodies or whatever, but like
I've heard you say ITAR and Idon't know what that means.
And again I'm curious, so Ihave to ask.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
I forget what it stands for.
It's like international.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
I looked it up as we were talking so international
traffic and arms regulations,but like, so, yeah, of course.
So when you, when I ask you aquestion and you say you know I
can't talk about that, ITAR, Iguess, is one of the regulatory
bodies that you have to adhereto in your job, right?

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah, it's a, it's federal regular, yeah, so, like
the rocket, any rocket that we,if we share that information
with a foreign entity, thatviolates ITAR and that's
basically TLDR.
Because if you share how tobuild a rocket, uh, you're
sharing how to build a bomb or amissile.
Right, a rocket is essentiallylike a controlled bomb um.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
So if you, if you violate itar like you're going
to like, you're going to federalprison yeah, right, like it's
no.
So yeah, and these things areso high, like what william said
earlier.
I'm sorry, I mean to talk overyou, like you know.
Oh no, the data center wentdown for a minute and somebody
couldn't get to an applicationand use their visa card, like
where you're, like you know you.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
I mean, you guys might eventually have humans
going to Mars or something orlike some crazy thing, and the
stakes are so high.
Not only that, but alsocommunicating, because you're a
public figure and you're a goodcommunicator.
You want to be able to sharethis cool stuff with the world.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
But you want to be able to share this cool stuff
with the world, but you alsohave to be super mindful,
because you don't want to go tofederal prison.
I, I use, I use itar as a.
It's a very convenient excusefor not creating very good
content online.
Like, oh, I can't talk aboutthe interesting stuff because
itar no, I, uh, I, it is thereason why I can't share,
unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
I would love to share all the nitty-gritty details,
but I'm gonna have to get a jobwith lexi if you want to.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, learn any of the really cool, yeah, amazing
my mind just blew up justthinking about like how like
itar would differentiate betweenlike military and commercial
space stuff like there.
That's got to be such a.
I bet the handbook is enormous.
There's probably a lot of yeah,and I'll say I.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
I'll say not only am I restricted by ITAR, but also
we have some NDAs in place andstuff like that, and so there's
proprietary stuff I can't sharethat may not violate ITAR but
would get me fired.
So I do paint with a very, verybroad brush about everything
and if in doubt I just don'tshare it.
And so there might be detailsthat technically I could share,

(25:05):
but I'm just not going to riskit type of thing.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
Have you been like called into the principal's
office yet of like, hey, OK.
No, luckily not no I hear whatyou can and can't do.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, after three, three and a half plus years
there, I'm pretty good at likeavoiding that stuff In the
beginning you just defer to likelisten.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
I can't talk about anything like avoiding that
stuff, I guess.
In the beginning you just deferto like listen.
I can't talk about anything.
I'm not losing my job, right.
I'm going to jail, right, or?

Speaker 3 (25:26):
I'd like message Eric and be like, hey, can I talk
about this?
And he'll be like no, or yeah,that's fine, or don't risk it.
You know, I've learned over theyears.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
So my first question you might say no kind of touch
on this earlier, but how do youdesign a network that can
recover or adapt without humanintervention during flight?

Speaker 3 (25:44):
I mean that's such a good question, andy.
I really like that becausethere's a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
I mean, like that's one of the questions that you
ask when you're just but is thatlike vague enough?
Like I mean, you know there'sprobably redundancy protocol.
Like I'm going to try to answeryour question for you, which is
probably done.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, yeah, but like please probably redundancy
protocols.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
There's probably dual things right, like physical
redundancy and then logicalthings to, you know, take
advantage of the physical thingsthat we do on the ground.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
I would.
I answer questions like thisbecause it's a totally valid and
interesting question to ask.
I answer questions like thiswith not how we solve these
problems, but think about howyou might solve it right,
because there's not one way tosolve these problems or address
them right.
And something that I've had tolearn being in aerospace is

(26:29):
everything is kind of just a bigrisk assessment, like every
decision you make ultimatelycomes down to what's the risk
and are we willing to acceptthat right?
So, whatever you decide onwhether it's how you address
radiation temperature, you knowif you want to use redundancy in
certain places, how much of itdo you want to weigh?
You know, is weight okay versusyou know better resiliency of

(26:54):
the network?
Or are we willing to accept therisk of like less weight, less
cost, but less resiliency aswell?
You know, like all of that comesdown to a bunch of smart people
making a decision, or at leastanalyzing the options and laying
them all out in front ofleadership and saying here are
the benefits, here are thedisadvantages, here are the
costs associated.

(27:15):
What do you want to do?
Right and so that's all it is,and it just depends on your
company's strategy, yourleadership's attitude towards
certain things, how they getaddressed, and so every company
is going to be a little bitdifferent, like we obviously
would be very different thanother, you know, space rocket
making companies.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
I guess the problems no-transcript purchase orders to

(28:08):
buy the gear to design thething, like what corners can we
cut?
We don't have a bajilliondollars in the budget, right,
because nobody wants to spend onthe network.
It might be different inrockets, but the network is like
this necessary evil.
It's the roads, it's theplumbing, like oh we just want
to spend our money onapplications and dev, like the
networks are stupid.
Cloud made it easy.
We don't need you anymore.
I mean, I'm being half, likeyou know, facetious.

(28:29):
No you're not wrong.
So on the ground, when we'dhave a big outage and Bank of
America would be like what thehell guys Like?
Why did this happen?
Again, the answer was alwayssomebody made a decision to not
spend the money we could have onthe resiliency that would have
kept this up.
Now you can't say that to theclient, but that was always the
answer Not always generallybecause you could build enough
resiliency in the system, butit's expensive and you're going

(28:51):
to have to refresh that expenseevery five years or whenever
this.
So again, I know you can'tanswer it, but it's interesting
that that problem on the ground.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
There's not a limited budget, right, like, yeah, it's
a similar like risk benefitanalysis, going on.
The stakes are slightly, youknow, a little bit different
here and there, but you knowwe've got other.
Some of the differences areinteresting to me from a
business perspective.
I'm not a business guy, right,like I don't.
I wouldn't say I understandbusiness decisions and

(29:21):
leadership very well, but thethings that I have learned have
been basically like riskassessment everything does come
down to weight, which alsobasically means it comes down to
cost right yeah, um, and ofcourse everybody's trying to
save money, especially in like aprivate company.
I can't, I'm not speaking as arepresentative of my company,
it's just.
This is what I've learned ingeneral about private aerospace

(29:41):
right is like it's like that's,that's one of the things that
you just have to deal with, andthat also means that schedules
are tight and things like that.
So all of that is kind ofpretty familiar, I would guess
for most network engineers itjust sort of manifests a little
bit differently maybe, and likewhat's prioritized, because in a
rocket everything is expensiveand you're trying to make it,
you know, less expensive inevery single possible way you

(30:03):
can.
But you also, like can'tnecessarily cut corners, right,
like you, but you.
So you have to come up withthese inventive ways to save
money and also get it done.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Really good, right yeah, and in the network
engineering world that you know,andy and I probably lived in
for a long time, it's like hey,you want more nines?
Hey, double the cost, triplethe cost, quadruple.
Okay, yeah, we're not gonna dothat, we're just gonna go what?
What is the cheapest?
Okay, like I feel like my, myassumption in aerospace
especially, you know name, namethe company.

(30:33):
If you have something goinginto space, if you cut corners
and it, you know results inrocket going down, then then
what is that risk?
How is that calculated?
That's a big, big.
You might as well light a fewtruckloads of money on fire.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Yeah, and I'll say terrestrial networks and data
centers and stuff like that.
For the most part you're justtypical one.
You're probably not going tohave a bunch of people, before
it ever gets deployed, berunning a ton of tests, a ton of
working with it ever getsdeployed.
Be like running a ton of tests,a ton of, like you know,
working with the FAA to makesure it's gonna perform in
production exactly as you expectit, things like that.

(31:08):
Like when we get the rocket onthe pad, like I'll say, like
when I was, I was stressed outin the weeks leading up to
launch.
I was not stressed out when wewere trying to.
Actually, when it was on thepad, I was, I was confident in
the network at that point.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
There's a ton of testing, I assume.

Speaker 3 (31:24):
Oh yeah, and we have.
You know, in aerospace you haverequirements.
You can't just sort of likebuild a thing and see if it
works right, like you haverequirements that you actually.
Systems engineers are veryimportant in an industry like
this because they have tounderstand how their individual
system fits within the whole.
And take the requirements ofthe large, you know you have
requirements for like this large, the rocket basically, and then

(31:47):
its requirements trickle downinto more specific ones for each
little system, the fins, theengines, whatever the flight
computers and the network hasits own set of requirements.
And so you write thoserequirements and the systems
engineer, you know, make surethat in the end your, your
little system, performs exactlyto those requirements and if it
doesn't, it doesn't launch right.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
So yeah, yeah there's amount of like.
Maybe like okay, like we testthings to make sure they work,
maybe we have like burn in.
You know, we install a freshswitch or a router, we let it
burn in and then we we get itgoing.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
But I imagine, like in space related things
aerospace, like you probablystress, test stuff a lot more
than you would do and youdefinitely, yeah, you definitely
have to know the limits of likewe, we know, you know generally
things like vibration levels,temperature, radiate, like we
have a whole radiation team thatknows what to expect for

(32:40):
different missions that we'regoing to do, right.
And so we definitely choose ourcomponents wisely and they're
analyzed before we ever committo actually using them for these
purposes, right?
So, and then each unit getstested before it actually is put
on the vehicle to make sureit's not defective.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
I'm glad you said that.
I thought about that.
Today I visited Oak RidgeNational Laboratory I forget if
it was a year or two ago and wewere there to see the Frontier
Supercomputer, which is reallyneat.
But a part that we couldn'tfilm or talk about was a nuclear
reactor where they madeisotopes and part of what they
did there.
It was fascinating.
Part of what they did there isthey test physical materials and

(33:21):
they mentioned rockets so theycan shoot neutron bullets from
the radioactive whatever throughmaterials.
So a company can say, hey, Idon't know, here's my
spacefaring whatever, I don'tknow what I'm talking about
Right, and tell us how strongthis is, and somehow they send
the neutron bullets to thematerial and this cool thing and
then they send whatever theresults of that test are over to

(33:43):
the supercomputer.
Do some math and like, okay,you can get 37 launches out of
this at these temperatures, atthese things.
And they can like, tell youwith mathematical, like
scientific certainty.
I think, yeah, you know, basedon what you built and what we
tested with neutrons, I'm likewhat?
Like, just, you know so,physical material testing.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
Just, I didn't even know it was a thing that's the
coolest thing by far that Ithink I've done so far.
Besides, the rocket launchactually is like.
I was lucky enough to bebasically the test engineer for
some components that we weretesting radiation this year and
I went on a couple trips withour RAD team and I got to see
that firsthand and like watchthem.
You know they definitely dohave a profile for each mission.
Couple trips with our rad teamand I got to see that firsthand

(34:21):
and like watch them.
You know they definitely dohave a profile for each mission.
They know exactly what that's.
You know, based on theradiation testing, what's going
to happen with that componentand it is super cool way beyond
me.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yeah, they must have some really cool laptop stickers
, just just the name of theirteam they are awesome.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
they are so smart.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
I learned so much, uh , when I was traveling with them
, so that's definitely likesomething that happens for sure

(35:01):
centers in space now, and I juststarted like laughing at him
like yeah, and he's like no, I'mserious, there's a startup and
they're shooting data centers inspace.
I'm like, are you serious?
I think it's called like cloudcastle or space castle or
something.
It's legit, though and I waslike why would you like?
My mind started reeling and I'mlike why would I?
Don't understand that.
Just how do you?

Speaker 1 (35:17):
get the data maxi reynolds subsea, whatever it's
called like what about danagravity?
That's like she's putting themon the ocean floor.
They're putting them in theocean oh yeah, that's pretty.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
I've seen that yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
But he was like, yeah , there's well, of course
there's no, you know,temperature problems in space.
I'm like, oh, that's a goodpoint well, there's definitely
temperature problems in space.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
I don't know that that's true, right cooling
aspect of it, I guess well, it'scold, but it's also as soon as
the sun hits you.
There's no air to, there's nocooling.
With air, you get super hot andsuper cold in space.
It's.
It's a big challenge it is.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, that's like they're doing crazy stuff in
space with technology and andand data centers I have a.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Let's see what the name of this company is, because
I'm curious.
Now I can't remember now is itstar cloud?
Yes, that's it not.
Not space, what did I say?

Speaker 3 (36:01):
Space cloud I was trying to remember the name
because I definitely heard ofthem, but yeah, StarCloud.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
It's really interesting.
I need to do some digging theplace I work at.
Thanks Ankit for telling meabout that.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Ankit.
I want to talk about telemetryfor a second because I know
that's really important to space, space vehicles and, um the,
the place I work at, they'reobsessed with streaming
telemetry and they think thateverybody should be using gmic
and you should know everythingabout your network all the time.
And I just heard a pack ofpushes really where they yeah,
where they had so it's not a,it's not a product pitch, but
yes, everything is streamingtelemetry where I work and

(36:33):
that's one of their value props.
But I just heard a pack ofpushes where they kind of had
like an snmp verse streamingtelemetry face-off of like the
SNMP.
People are like, do we reallyneed to know what the network's
doing all the time?
Because SNMP is good enough.
So it was an interestingconversation.
But I guess, in the context ofrockets, I think you need
real-time streaming telemetrycoming in over what I assume is

(36:57):
a limited WAN connection.
Limited might be undersellinghow much bandwidth they can do
over satellites and all this.
It's probably pretty tense, butyeah, so I think of quality of
service, right, like, oh, canthey stream everything?
Do they have to prioritizecertain things?
And again I feel like I'mdipping into like bro, I can't
tell you what we're doing, butthese are some of the things I

(37:18):
think you're thinking about it,right as usual.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yeah, yeah, you've got it right.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
I mean, you need the telemetry to know what the
rocket's doing, I think.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
But I can't say.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
What I can't say is like time like do you need it on
the ground because the rocket'sgoing to use that about it?
Right, and it plays loop andlike make adjustments it's
autonomous.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
When it's going up, you know we we get a little data
coming down to ground as that'shappening, but for the most
part, you know it's very limited.
Um, but, like one of the mostinteresting things, that uh was
so different for me, coming fromlike a knock, where you, you
have this huge like screen oflike this is wrong, this is
wrong.
Ah, we're freaking out becauseeverything is wrong.

(37:55):
Right, you, you never get analert if something's right.
Right, like you don't care ifit's going right, you just is
that what telemetry is for.
You could see everything's happyI mean, yeah, in aerospace we
do want to know the exacteverything that's going on with
everything all the time, everymillisecond, right like we want
to know if it's going right, ifit's going wrong.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
We need to know immediately if something's wrong
feedback loop can, I guess,help you continue to keep
everybody safe and the missionyou know, successful.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yeah, I mean it's part of you know you may have,
but also future too.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Right, like I think of catastrophes we've had in
aerospace and the streamingtelemetry started to send
information.
Before you know, crafts fellapart.
Let's say Like oh, you knowleading, wing temperature
sensors are starting to go crazy.
So yeah, let's say like oh, youknow leading wing temperature
sensors are starting to go crazy.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
So, yeah, is there like micro adjustments you can
make?
Like say that, like you havethe all this data coming in,
it's all real time, and there'slike a combination of certain
things that give you insight andlike, okay, this could
potentially happen.
Like could you, in theory, makeadjustments if?

Speaker 1 (38:56):
you have 13 think about that william, the
telemetry was telling them theoxygen was disappearing and they
were like shit, we need to shutstuff down and go into another
thing and put socks and carbonthings to like scrub.
Like if they didn't have thatinformation coming down from the
craft and all the smartestpeople in that room could like
work a problem Like that's whatI think is like.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
oh, I feel like I've over amplified that like an
idiot, because you have thisautonomous gigantic thing in
space.
It's like what are you gonna doto you know?
Yeah, I mean, that's why youhave all the good engineering
and the lexis of the world thathave made sure that everything's
like you know.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
I just test stuff.
But you know, you've got.
You've got a kind of adifference between like piloted
vehicles with human beings inthem and like an autonomous
vehicle, right, because rightnow we don't there's no people
in in the rocket, um, but youknow, maybe one day we don't
there's no people in the rocket,but you know, maybe one day we
don't, you don't know.
But yeah, you generally want,even if everything goes well,

(39:48):
you still want as much data aspossible, because you want to
know exactly what was going onand you want to be able to
analyze that and, of course, ofcourse, if something goes wrong,
you want to know.
But it's also useful to havethe data about what was going
right, you know, and be able toconfirm things, or if you want
to tweak something later.
You know it's constant learningprocess with this stuff.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Well, you're testing stuff and you're getting data
when you test it and then whenyou quote unquote test in
production, when you light thecandle, then you can get that
data back Like okay, great,everything we tested happened,
we confirmed it.
So let's keep doing the goodthing.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
So that kind of makes sense too, I guess.
Yeah, and you might have heardof the term deterministic
networking.
Right the safety of criticalstuff.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Determinism is really really important.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
Can you explain deterministic real quick?
Yeah, it's basically like Idon't know there are ways we can
do this in data center andenterprise networking for sure.
I don't know.
I think there are ways we cando this in data center and
enterprise networking for sure,but I wouldn't say like
deterministic networking is kindof like you know exactly what
your latency is at all times,you know exactly the path that
traffic is going to take at alltimes.
Like it is, it is deterministicRight.

(40:56):
So, like in data centernetworking, we can adjust like
dynamic routing rules and thingslike that, to make sure we like
we can tweak things orstatically set a few things here
and there to make sure it takesa certain path.
Yeah, but it's like the extremelevel of that basically right,
because it's safety criticalstuff, which means like you
really really have to be on topof it.
You have to know exactly what'sgoing to happen with that data

(41:16):
at all times, and nothingunexpected should happen, or at
least the chances of anythingunexpected happening are so
mathematically low that you areconfident enough to launch this
thing right.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
So it's like you're producing consistent,
predictable things, results, Iguess, with the same inputs
every time, no randomness thrownin that can add variability.
Yeah, and there's, like youknow, algorithms that people can
, can use to.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
There's, like you know, algorithms that people can
, can use to like determine,like, how many times out of a
million will this fail?
Right, like there are for everyindividual component.
Basically, that exists, um, Iforget what the term is, but
it's like a scale or somethingthat that exists out there, um,
and you can, you can take thatfor every component on a vehicle
, theoretically andmathematically calculate how

(42:03):
many times out of a million isthis rocket going to have a
problem, or something like that.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
So that's another thing we use to de-risk, like
mean time to failure orsomething right.
I kind of feel like I've putthat in like network, it's like
a standard.

Speaker 3 (42:14):
It's a standard.
There's a handbook.
I'm pretty sure NASA uses it.
I'm sure you could Google it.
If you need to wait to google,I can't remember there's so I
know we've been going for awhile.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
I want to be respectful of your time.
There's two things I have totouch on before we we wrap.
But something just occurred tome because I was listening to.
I know I keep mentioning it,but I listened to you on another
show and you were talking aboutthe ethernet book that you read
all 6 000 pages of four timesand you're like nobody should
read it.
It was really hilarious.
But something you said was justjumped into my mind was you
discovered time-based ethernetor time-triggered ethernet?

Speaker 3 (42:44):
oh yeah, like that right, like that's one of those.
Is that a?

Speaker 1 (42:46):
thing in space, like I mean it was developed for
safety critical applications.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
It's, it's so interesting.
It's like qos, but at layer twokind of is how I would describe
it.
Um, it it time-triggeredethernet is a proprietary
protocol by I think they'recalled.
Tte is the company, um, butit's just like one of.
If you start looking into likeaerospace stuff or deterministic
stuff, you can kind of findprotocols like this out there,

(43:13):
like nasa will talk about them.
I think tte the way I kind offound out about it was like isa,
the european space agency I'mpretty sure they posted
something about it.
Or tte was like oh, we have iton one of our vehicles or
something, um, but yeah, it's,it's.
I would just describe it verybriefly as like qos for layer
two.
Um, it's very, it's veryinteresting.
It's like ethernet, but morethan best effort, right our

(43:35):
typical ethernet is best effort.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Right, it does its best, but it's not gonna
guarantee this would give yousome kind of guarantee class
traffic at layer two, maybe,yeah, okay, that's kind of
interesting because time iscritical, right like
milliseconds matter and yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
So, like it's not, you know, it could also be good
for, like, not just aerospace,but maybe like industrial
applications or even automotiveor something like that, right,
so it's just down to your usecase.
So if you start like lookinginto this kind of stuff, you'll
you'll find protocols like that.
It's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
And there's probably so many cool protocols in
aerospace that are unique to.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
Yeah, and, and a lot of them are proprietary,
unfortunately, or they're so newthat the IEEE just came out
with them, or something likethat, and there's no like.
What's crazy to me and whatmakes me sad, as someone who has
ADHD and needs structure tolearn, is that there's no
certifications to like learnabout these things.
No one has a course on TTE thatI am aware of.
You have to go or sorry, yeah,time-triggered Ethernet you have

(44:29):
to go to the company that madeit and like talk to them and
like pay them money to like talkabout it, right.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
I'm with you.
Same affliction Give me anaccredited course and a book and
a course I can take.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
Yeah, give me an instructor to just tell me
things.
Yeah, give me quizzes and tests.
I want that right, Please giveme structures.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Don't just give me a book and say good luck.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Right, that's the most frustrating part about like
rabbit holing into some of thisstuff is like it's so brand new
or just like unexplored.
There's no certification pathsLike you just have to kind of go
into the unknown so we talkedabout deterministic stuff.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Is like that pro, you know, time-based ethernet.
Is that the whole genesisbehind you know this
deterministic spacecommunication, I guess?

Speaker 3 (45:09):
no, I think determinism has been around for
like a very long time.
I'm sure nasa invented thisright, like nasa invest invented
systems engineering.
So I I don't know for surewhere determinism came from, but
I would suspect it's definitelybecause of safety critical
requirements.
But is that.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
What makes the space communication deterministic
though that protocol?
Is it like part of the processfor how you because I mean I
like I drive for determinism inmy code, like I write code, I
have the same inputs and I wantthe same outputs.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
Unfortunately that doesn't happen, and I think it's
how much more complicatedfreaking space is, and yeah,
yeah I mean I would imagine,like I said, tte is like a one
protocol out of many that existthat are either like invented
with this kind of use case inmind, and I just say, like this
is, this is a possibility, thisis a potential thing that you

(46:00):
could use, depending on your usecase, to kind of make your
network more deterministic.
Oh my God, my dog I'm sorrythat was amazing.
I thought that was Andy.
Is Andy?

Speaker 1 (46:10):
okay, she is fine, I don't know.
I heard.
I heard it sounded like aMuppet.

Speaker 3 (46:15):
She does this thing where, when she wants attention
she rolls around on her back andgoes where when she wants
attention.
She rolls around on her backand goes.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Remind me her name.
Her name is May I apologize,I'm wrapping it up.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
Should I redo that?

Speaker 1 (46:31):
It was amazing, it was great.
I love that.
I love that May was like Yoenough, tell this guy to shut up
.
It's been 55 minutes.
All right, may, I'm going towrap it up for May, okay.
So second to last thing,security.
There are obviously massivesecurity concerns.
Everybody's worried aboutsecurity and networking.

(46:51):
Okay, you hack my network andyou you know, oh, give me a
Bitcoin to unlock your stuff,whatever right when.
I guess, if you hack a rocket,you can actually weaponize a
controlled explosion bomb, right?
So, like, what question am Itrying to get out here?
I have it written down.
Let me look.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Is security important ?
Yes, it is Well right.
Can I hack the rocket?
No, you can't.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
What are the like?
So are there unique securityconsiderations beyond the
obvious?
Like oh yes, you could doterrible things on my rocket?
Like so, comparing this toground networking and security,
you know you have to think aboutyour attack vector, your
surface, whatever they call it,and you know you might have
firewalls and like you got tothink like cyber stuff and like
I mean, without telling usanything you can't tell us like,

(47:41):
do you have to do specialthings around security for a
rocket or is it really just hey,man, this is networking and you
secure your network?
Like it's a terribly wordedquestion.
I'm sorry I can't ask this.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Yeah, I understand.
No, no, no, it's fine.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
I will say it's classified, it's like like it's.
I feel like different thingsthat you'd have to do.

Speaker 3 (47:59):
Honestly, regardless of how you would worded it, I
will just say the answer is yeah, you definitely have to do some
stuff, and that was all I cansay.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah Right.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
Yeah, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
That's not even access to systems I used.
I used to have low levelfederal clearances and there's
the PIVI card and there's afingerprint scanner and there's
a special laptop and there's 13VPNs Like there's layers of
security that you know just toget access to a system.
So I guess we can just assumesecurity is we?

Speaker 3 (48:29):
definitely it was designed with security in mind.
Yeah for sure, yeah for sure.
Yeah, so cybersecurity is athing that aerospace companies
for anybody looking for a job.
That's another thing you canlook into right.

Speaker 1 (48:42):
So that's, that's a good segue and that's kind of
where I wanted to to wrap us upas advice for aspiring rocket
networkers or avionicsintegrators.
What advice would you give to anetwork admin, a network
engineer?
I mean, think of you at, youknow, at a knock or I'm thinking
of myself at a knock, rightLike I, I teared up and it took
all I had not to quiver into afalling ball of mush when I

(49:04):
watched new Glenn launch at thebeginning of this episode.
So like all I ever want to beas an astronaut.
So like that, you know, likethat's a dream.
So anybody out there who has aspace dream that also works in
tech, do you have any advice,any learning resources?
Like what would you tellsomebody that's like, hey, man,
I love what you do, how can I dothe thing?
This is amazing.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Because you're the person.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
I think you're the only one that we can talk to.
I think my mentor would be abetter person to talk to, but as
a quick but, no, no, no, Iunderstand.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
I would love to talk to your mentor.
Yeah, I mean, what would yousay Like, do you have any advice
?

Speaker 3 (49:37):
So yeah, my advice would be there.
So there's not really,unfortunately.
There's not like kind of like Imentioned before, sort of with
like some of these protocols andstuff.
There's not really like acertification path that's like
here's how you get intoaerospace as a network engineer.
But honestly, people, peopleget annoyed with me all the time
for saying this but like get aCCNA, like understand network

(49:58):
fundamentals, that's soimportant to literally
everything ever being a networkengineer, that's thank you,
captain, obvious.
But like make sure you know thefundamentals and then, if you
really want it, just go for it.
We have job recs like anyoneelse.
Right, just just apply.
Because if you look at the jobrecs on, like on any website,

(50:19):
right for career, for I'm tryingto avoid naming specific
companies, but aerospacecompanies that might be hiring
for spacefaring vehicles there'sa number of them out there like
, just look at their job recs,for it may not say network
engineer, it might sayintegration engineer or, I don't
know, avionics engineer perhaps.
But look at the job rec andlook what it says and you'll be

(50:40):
able to tell whether or not it'slike network related.
But my advice is like, learnyour fundamentals, then go for
it.
Then, if you're not getting it.
Start if you.
If you don't, a lot of it'sluck, unfortunately, like I got
really lucky to be hired the wayI did.
But I would say, keep applying.
There's not going to be a tonof these jobs because, like, we
just don't have usually like anarmy of network engineers on a

(51:03):
rocket right, I'm a two-person,I'm on a two-person team right
now, but they do, they do existout there.
Just go for it.
Um, because you're basicallyyou're not going to be able to
get a certification to bequalified, you're not really
going to feel like you'requalified for it.
But just go for it anywayBecause you can do it.
If you understand networking,you can be a network engineer

(51:23):
for a rocket.
It might be weird, it might bea weird rocket network, but like
, if you can get over that thenyou're fine, right.
But as far as like actual skills, if you want to increase your
chances of like doing well in aninterview we talked about at
the beginning Intellectualcuriosity, people roll their
eyes because we say soft skillsall the time in technical spaces
.
But like you can learntechnical stuff, you will have

(51:46):
to learn the technical stuff onthe job at an aerospace company.
There's just no getting aroundthat You're never going to know
most of the stuff you need.
So if you can demonstrate thatyou have the ability to not only
have passion for that mission,whatever that company is doing,
and show them that in theinterview and also, like, show
that you are interested in thisstuff and you think it's cool
and you are really ready andwilling to learn, that goes a

(52:10):
very, very, very, very long way.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
She's amazing.
She's had it.
I understand I kept you toolong, I'm sorry.
Listen, I think that'sfantastic advice and I'm glad I
don't think that it's obvious.
In the beginning I've heardpeople try to undermine and
undersell the value of the CCNA,and today is marketing.
It's the best program out therefor networking fundamentals.
It changed my life, it changedyour life, it's changed

(52:36):
everyone's life.
I've talked to Duan Lightfoot,who's now Mr AI.
You talk to anybody who's juststarting out or at the top of
the mountain.
Ccna is where you start innetworking.
Um, and and I believe that Iknow that you're a big, uh
proponent of labbing I love yourlab content.
I I guess you might tip yourhat to like hey, while you're
doing your CCNA, do some type oflabbing, even if it's track and

(52:57):
pacer, I mean yeah that's.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
That's a good point.
I will say like one of thethings that helped me a little
bit going into this particularrole which is network
integration, where I had to do alot of hands on hardware stuff
and be there in person with itand like messing with switches

(53:24):
and routers and stuff did helpme a little bit.
It wasn't what helped me get thejob necessarily, but it did
help me like not have so much.
Like I was able to build a rackof equipment because I'd sort
of done a little bit of thatbefore, whereas like if I hadn't
done that then I would havebeen like kind of freaked out
and, like you know, treadingwater or like trying to keep my
head above water when I wasdoing it.
Having built a little bit in myown lab at home helped me not

(53:46):
be so like freaked out by thatrequirement in my own job.
So that's just a note there.
You don't have to have thephysical hardware experience.
I know that's not realistic fora lot of people and that's okay
.
But if you really want to getan edge, that could be something
to consider more than you mightnormally for like any
enterprise or data center role.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
William, I totally agree with that.
So much the heart.
Like getting your hands onhardware.
It sounds trivial, it reallydoes.
But I've had, like when I havehired, like talking about, like
drafting, younger, likeinexperienced folks, or like our
college intern program at oneof the companies I was at.
They would come in and they didvirtual learning and stuff, and
then we would go in the datacenter and we'd go through like

(54:26):
racking and stacking mstcassettes, fibers, you know
terminating some copper, likehow to properly patch, and you
know I'll clean everything up.
It would like you'd see likeall these light bulbs going on
everywhere, that just it wouldlike connect all these things
that were not connected before.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
I can't explain it there's something about from
your brain to your hands, to thething it it does.
It does light some things up,um, and that actually reminds me
one more thing.
I'm sorry I keep adding on, butin aerospace you're always
gonna hit like a lower, likewe're all familiar with the osi
model.
Right, physical layer is morethan just cables, right?

(55:02):
Like, if you can do a packetwalk like pretty well, now I
would challenge you, before yougo into aerospace, do a frame
walk and like start start withthe phi and then go through the
phi and then go to the mdi, likego all the way through it.
If you don't know how to dothat, that could give you a bit

(55:23):
of a leg up as I don't know howto do that, aerospace, so yes,
it most, most.
You don't have to right, likemost people don't, because you
don't need to.
That's straight up well, andthat's fine, right, because
again, most, most networkengineers quite honestly like
don't need to know that, but ifyou're looking at aerospace,
that is something you may wantto look into is like you might
be programming for electricalright, or you'll at least have

(55:47):
to be so close to it that you'renot programming it, but you're
almost doing it right.
Like, like, learn what a phiregister is.
What does that mean?
Uh, and like, what does an asicactually do?
Right, can you ask questions ofsomebody at cisco about
whatever this new ASIC they haveis, if you don't know the
difference between a FI and anASIC?

(56:08):
Or what is SGMI?
What is that?
What does MII stand for?
Learn all of that, right, ifyou really want an edge.
That's all stuff.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
I I'm laughing because you and I used to talk
and you would ask me questionsand I'm like holy crap, Because
they're things I had neverthought of.
And I asked some of the mostbrilliant people I knew and they
were like whoa, Because?

Speaker 3 (56:30):
you don't have to.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
But you're right, but it's fascinating and if you're
curious, and if aerospace valuesthese, what seem to be off the
beaten path skills, yeah, youhave to be able to break.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Something like if you're going to find because
most of the time on networkslike this, they're going to be
like the only network in theentire world like that- right
like I can say confidentlythere's no other network like
the one I work on absolutely notright.
so if you are going to be readyfor that, you need to be able to
like break down a protocol toits very base like how, what's
the timing like on this veryspecific?

(57:03):
You know how you go into like Idon't know the 802.3 standard.
If you haven't done that, startlearning how to do it and then
look at the like timing diagramsin there.
How many nanoseconds does ittake for this one particular
signal to be sent out?

Speaker 1 (57:16):
You've got to buy that ethernet book with the
octopus on the.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
Yeah on the.
Yeah, it was a good book.
It is, it is.
Yeah, that's exactly it.
Yeah, like, just learn the lowlevel stuff that you never would
have thought to learn andyou're gonna have an edge in
interviews, right never ends.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
You told me about link pulses and auto negotiation
the one thing I can do with anoscilloscope but whoa like
really, I thought I knew a lot,Like you never know at all and
somebody always knows more.
And you discovered that somevendors say when you turn auto
negotiation off, that it's offand Lexi is like bullshit.
Just because you turn it off, Istill see your fast link pulses

(57:55):
.
Your auto negotiation neverturned off.
Like I don't even know if theyknow that.

Speaker 3 (57:59):
Honestly, yeah, because I have asked several
vendors no, that, and they werelike what?

Speaker 1 (58:05):
and then they gave me like the hardware engineers who
like design that platform thatare that are responsible for
refreshing it every couple ofyears.
Lexi walks in and she's like yo, I turn auto neg off and it
doesn't turn off like that wasnot true.
Want me to show you?

Speaker 2 (58:20):
I have.
I have like a normal networkengineer in there like think
about asics, like the we'regoing to look at like the spec
sheet and that's it.
We don't go beyond the specsheet.
Usually we don't have to, buthow?

Speaker 3 (58:31):
much time does it take for that asic to make a
decision?
And can you rely on that everytime?
Right, like that's the kind oflevel of questioning that you
need to have.
And like, again, I'm not sayingthat you should know this
already.
If you you're expecting to getan error, you won't know it,
like there's no way you willknow it.
But if you can just get used tothinking like that and sort of
explore a little bit of thishere and there, look at some
white papers or a standard orwhatever, that'll get you into

(58:53):
the mindset of like, okay, well,what actually happens when a
frame arrives from the, from thewire right at the phi?
What does the phi do with it?
And are there sub layers inthere and what do those sub
layers do?

Speaker 1 (59:04):
and is it different for this flavor of this protocol
versus this flavor like juststarted out on something magical
, the mindset I was justthinking of, um erica the dev,
and she's I'm going through herum automation you know youtube
that she's doing and she startsout with the mindset like,
listen, this, like coding, is acomplete different mindset.
Dev is a different mindset,which is why it's really hard

(59:26):
for a lot of network engineers.
It's a completely differentmindset and I think that that's
brilliant what you're saying,that if you're interested in
aerospace and you're studyingfor ccna and all that stuff, you
, if you can start to get thatmindset, you know like what,
what are these things?
And like, because I I've neverhad that and the more I talk to
you, I'm like whoa, like it is awhole world unto itself and you
can dive in and that'll reallyhelp you in an interview if you

(59:46):
can well at least talk aboutsome of the things that that you
just touched on you're talkingabout going deep in one area too
, though, because, like mostnetwork engineers nowadays are I
don't want to say I hate sayingmost, but a lot of folks just
generalist in a sense.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Like they're generalist because they have to
be they're kind of deep in a lotof different areas, but you
like the work that you do.
You're very deep in a veryspecific area, yeah, and there's
something really awesome aboutthat well, yeah, and there's no.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
No shade to generalist like you have to do
what you have, the opposite ofwhat they're asking for, right,
like you gotta know cloud.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
You gotta know networking.
You gotta know cloud.
You gotta know some programmingyou better know pipelines
networking.
You got to know cloud, you gotto know some programming.
You better know pipelines.
Like, now, you got to know AI.
Like it does seem like it'sgoing more generalist, but
here's.
Xe who's going deep on reallycool stuff, and I don't think
you're going to be a generalistand succeed in aerospace
networking at least.

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
Yeah, you can go in as a generalist, that's fine,
right?
So don't be afraid if you feellike you're a generalist now.
If you don't want to, yeah,it's fine.
But you just have to go inknowing that that's what's going
to happen.
Is you need to start, you needto become an expert on your
network and no other network,and you kind of need to like I
know I said get the fundamentalsand you do need those, but then
you have to be able to setthose aside and go all right so

(01:00:59):
what's this weird thing doingright in front of me?
And be able to work with thosein tandem, if that makes sense.
And you have to be able toexplain some of those concepts
to other engineers who are notnetwork engineers, but
electrical engineers, mechanicalengineers, software engineers,
who will think they knownetworking.
But don't necessarily Shotsfired, shots fired Never.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
All right, lexi, in respect of your time and poor
may behind you, who hasabsolutely had it with us.
Thank you so much for your time.
Um, I love that you came on.
Thank you, I learned so muchthank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
It's been, yeah, it's been so wonderful to see you,
andy, and meet you, william, orjust chat with y'all.
Thank you so much for having.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
This is a great conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
William to me too.
Thank.
This is an epic conversation.
I learned a ton.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
I still want to be.
Oh, what's next for Lexi?
Oh for me.
Are you an astronaut yet?
Well, my plan.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Don't tell anyone but my plan is to hitch a ride on
the next New Glenn launch.
So I'm going to crawl in thereand just kind of snuggle up into
security.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
She's gonna go in the .

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
She's gonna go in somebody's suitcase yeah, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna launch, I'mgonna launch.
No, I uh, I love my job.
I'm having such a great time,it is so hard, so, but, um,
we're gonna be.
I'm actually moving into aslightly different role, still
integration, that's about all Ican say, but it'll be same

(01:02:29):
rocket, similar stuff.
But you know, we are eventuallyprobably going to look to
expand our team a little bit.
So if anyone out there wants tomove to Seattle area, keep an
eye on the website.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
I know I could have looked this up, but is your
launch schedule public, Like dowe know when the next launch is
around?

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
I think our CEO has announced what did he say.
I can only repeat what he said.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
I'm sorry.
I know I should have looked itup.
I'm not asking you.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
No, it's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
I'm looking forward to it.
I mean, that's just space,right, like you can't control
weather and all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
Yeah, I mean sometimes we'll scrub because of
weather and stuff like that,but he said Dave Limp, Dave Limp
, our CEO, has publicly saidthat we will launch New Glenton
no later than August.
That is the public thing thathe has said.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
So I can this year.
Okay, so we should see anotherlaunch this year maybe?

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
wow, that's amazing and they won't tell us like
what's in the payload oranything that's all like on the
dl and um, sometimes they'll sayit, yeah, sometimes they won't.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
I'll look at it, I don't it's not fair to ask you,
but I'm, I'm fascinated withyeah, it's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
Yeah, I'm sorry I'm super.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
I'm super excited for the mars stuff well, you know I
can't.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
I can say this we're very focused on the moon right
now.
You can look up some publicstuff about our relationship
with NASA and stuff like that.
So you know, keep, keep youreyes out.
Go to the moon, thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Thank you so much, william.
Always a pleasure For allthings.
Art of NetEng.
You can check out our link treeat linktreecom.
Forward slash.
Art of net inch.
Check out the discord server.
It's all about the journey.
There's a bunch of wonderfulfolks in there, studying, doing
things, talking about cool stuff.
I didn't have a community in thebeginning and it was a hard
slog and the people around mewere telling me I was wasting my

(01:04:15):
time, money and effort studyingfor the ccna.
Uh, turns out that wasn't true,and then I found a community of
like-minded people who werelike you're doing a thing.
This is great, don't give up.
And it's really made all thedifference in the world.
It's been a much more pleasantjourney finding my people,
including these two wonderfulpeople who have joined us on
this episode.
So thank you so much.
This was amazing and we'llcatch you next time on the Art

(01:04:36):
of Network Engineering podcast.
Hey folks, if you like what youheard today, please subscribe to
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(01:04:57):
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