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May 16, 2023 46 mins

Engaging our students has become a real challenge in a post-COVID, media-filled world. We talk to Jo Mclntyre-Brown about her passion for Steam learning and sustainable enterprise programs. If you’re looking for a way to enrich your classrooms with authentic real-world problem-solving or want to help your teaching team get started with some simple design thinking challenges, here are some ideas to get you started. 

Show Notes: 

1. Manurewa Intermediate School – Youtube Channel
2. Using Technology Better – upcoming events

 

We post every week and would love to have you keep up with us. If you know someone who would get value from these episodes, hit the share button and let them know. Lastly, if you have questions or anything to share with us, email us at team@usingtechnologybetter.com. You can also contact Bex at bex@usingtechnologybetter.com to find out how you can get free PD in your schools (NZ) or follow us on Instagram at @usingtechnologybetter or on youtube.com/@utb

We’d love to hear from you! See you next week.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Herring (00:00):
You know, the challenge is not just in how you

(00:02):
engage students, but also howyou engage teachers. Stay
engaged. And yeah, you know, notjust kind of going through the
motions, because I see that, youknow, especially online, there's
a lot of a lot of teacherssaying, you know, I saw one
yesterday, you know, what kindof jobs could I do if I wasn't
in teaching, and then there'sall these people piping in and
saying, Well, you could do thisroll, or I left last year, and

(00:23):
I'm leaving. And it's funny, ina sense, but it's a sad
indictment of where we're at asan education movement. You know,
we need to be engaging students,but we need to be engaging
teachers as well. The bettermindset podcast, you're
listening to The Better MindsetPodcast. I'm Mark Herring.

Unknown (00:38):
And I'm Bex Rose.

Mark Herring (00:39):
And today on the podcast, we've got an interview
with Joe McIntyre Brown, one ofthe steam learning specialists
at manually what intermediate inAuckland backs. But before we
get into that interview, which Iknow you weren't part of, so
you'll be able to listen to itafterwards. I just wanted to
quickly show you remember how onthe last episode, in making
waves, we were talking about thehealth benefits of wearing
watches. I just just wanted toshow what I've got. Back in the

(01:06):
Apple ecosystem, so I managed tomanage the source, a stainless
steel one, which is really cool,because it's got the Steph
sapphire screen on it. So yeah,one of the things I was really
interested in, one of the thingsI was kind of like pulled in the
Garmin direction was just therobustness of it, you know, you
could smash it up against walls.
And when I'm at hiking andrunning and stuff like that, I
don't have to worry aboutscratching the screens, but I
was able to sell it and then geta second hand sapphire version,

(01:27):
which is I didn't

Joe Brown (01:30):
know that was a thing. Yeah, that's really cool.
It's,

Mark Herring (01:33):
it's like a couple of $100 more than the standard
series seven or seven, eight,series eight. But um, yeah,
it's, it's one of the valuesand, and having second hand
Apple gear is that it holds itsvalue. But it's, you know,
you're able to get that premiumprice. So yeah, super keen to be
back into the Apple ecosystem.
And now I get all the smartfunctionalities of navigation
and direct messages. And yeah,all of those things. So that's

(01:55):
really cool. Anyway, so I tracklet's get into the Dan. Well,
very excited to have JoeMcIntyre from manually
intermediate on the call. Andwe've actually known each other
for a number of years, Joe, andI'll get you to talk a little
bit about what you do in theschool and what your lead roles
is. I'll let you introduceyourself in a second. But I know
that a lot of the connectionthat we've had over the years

(02:16):
has been around steam learning.
So I'm excited to talk to youabout that. One of the things
that I am hearing and Bix and Iare hearing from a lot of
leaders across Southeast Asiaand Australia and New Zealand is
the engagement factor. So how dowe encourage students who have
been through the COVID, remotelockdown period, the challenge
and the impact that that'shaving in the classroom now
about getting studentengagement, not only just in

(02:37):
attendance, especially in themiddle school space, you know,
the intermediate school space,but how do we actually not just
get them there? But how do weget them reengaged enthusiastic
about their learning. And as weknow, it's not just about
reading, writing and maths. Butwhat we're excited to talk about
is what it looks like from yourperspective in terms of
integration, because I reallythink that that's one of the key
things moving forward,innovative practice, integrated

(02:59):
learning, combined with digitaltech and a lot of the exciting
innovations that are happeningin that space, excited to get
into this with you. So tell us alittle bit about your role in
the school, and maybe how yougot there, and then we'll go
from there. How does it sound?

Joe Brown (03:12):
It sounds great. So yeah, my name is Joe McIntyre,
Brown. And I have a couple ofdifferent roles in the school.
So I'm the lead for educationfor sustainability effects at
school. And I've had quite along, long history in that
space. I'm also the acrossschool leader, as you said, for
coffee Akal. And so that is inthe steam and integration space.

(03:33):
And then I'm a module subjectteacher, so I teach sustainable
enterprise to every class asthey as they come through
school, so across the schoolyear, so a bit of a range of
roles, but they all fitincredibly well together. So I'm
really, really lucky to have theposition that I do, and the
ability to try quite a lot ofnew things. So new innovations
and new ways of seeing things,you know, it's involved a little

(03:54):
bit of a paradigm shift. Infact, it involves them on quite
a regular basis. But I love thatbecause I need that to feel
engaged and excited, which ispretty much what our students
need. Right? So 100%?

Mark Herring (04:06):
Well, it's funny you say that, because that's
what we're talking about, youknow, the challenge is not just
in how you engage students, butalso how you engage teachers.
Stay engaged, and yeah, youknow, not just kind of going
through the motions, because Isee that, you know, especially
online, there's a lot of a lotof teachers saying, you know, I
saw one yesterday, you know,what kind of jobs could I do if
I wasn't in teaching, and thenthere's all these people piping

(04:26):
in and saying, Well, you coulddo this role, or I left last
year, and I'm leaving, you know,it's funny, in a sense, but it's
a sad indictment of where we'reat as an education movement. You
know, we need to be engagingstudents, but we need to be
engaging teachers as well. So

Joe Brown (04:38):
absolutely. Sounds like you've shaped

Mark Herring (04:41):
your own role in an innovative way. You've
already shaped that whole rolearound, you know, innovative
learning, but that you get toinnovate in that space. Yeah,

Joe Brown (04:50):
yeah. And I mean, I understand, you know, kids that
are reluctant to come to school.
I know that when I'm not feelingpassionate about what I do, or
things that just say Let me sayme, I'm not very good either.
And I need to be engaged andpassionate about what I'm
teaching. Otherwise, what's thepoint, it's really great to have
kids at this age, particularly,you know, slightly older than
than primary than our year sixis, but not quite into the

(05:12):
secondary school space yet, orthe high school space yet. And
so they are really enthusiasticor can be really enthusiastic
about shaping the way that theirlearning is going. And I love
that because it means that myjob's not always the same. And
I'm never sure when I plan howit's going to go. So it's always
interesting and exciting andpretty innovative, I'd say,

Mark Herring (05:32):
Yeah, well, one of the interesting things about
your school and we'll have alink to your YouTube page,
because I know that yourchannel, you know, your your
score manually, we'reintermediate, do a lot of work
on engaging students in some ofthe videos that you create, you
know, around your assemblies andyour sports days and things like
that. I know, You've had someleaders who have really got
together and really banded or anamazing school culture at your

(05:52):
school, but one of the one ofthe things from somebody looking
from the outside, and they mightthink that it's quite a
traditionally run school becauseit runs off a high school
timetable. You know, you havebowels, you have students going
between classes, because you'vemade a conscious decision to
prepare them for that highschool space. But then at the
same time, once you actuallylook under the surface,
particularly with programs likeyours, you see some real
innovation happening there.
Right?

Joe Brown (06:14):
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it's always that
challenge, isn't it, you know,you got to get the kids to a
certain level. So there has tobe a certain amount of skills
teaching, but equally, thenthere's got to be a space for
kids to apply their skills andto apply their learning. So
while you could definitely sayit's more, it's more traditional
kind of high school model. Andit definitely does prepare the
kids to go to high school,there's still a lot of space

(06:35):
for, for that collaboration. Soyou know, when you look at Steam
learning, it's about bringingthe kids bringing all of their
skills and all of theirknowledge, their prior
knowledge, whatever that mightbe into the space to create
something to address a problemor an issue, or answer a design
brief. And so yeah, I think thatthere's space for for both.
What's really interestingthough, is because it is quite

(06:57):
or can be seen as being quitetraditional is looking at our
subjects such as you know,numeracy and humanity. So all of
our literacy, geography historyis done through humanities are
using some of the stuff that weknow about steam and hands on
learning and integration inthose subject areas. So what's
been really interesting is we'vejust had a two week steam fair.
So we do each term, we do an offmodule fortnight, normally at

(07:20):
the beginning of the term, oraround a range of things. And
this has been steam fair. Andit's been really, really cool to
hear the kids and the staff talkabout how they could potentially
do so the interest in bringingsome sort of steam staff into
more traditional single subjectareas. And the kids actually, in
the ones that I've beeninterviewing towards the end of

(07:42):
the the steam fair fortnighttalking about how much they
would really like to practice,say, a set of skills, and then
do something to apply thoseskills, but that would also link
into other subject areas. So youknow, you have that kind of
challenge and that balance, butI think you do get a lot of
opportunity to do other thingsthat aren't just your

(08:03):
traditional kind of high school,move to one subject, and then
the other and, and perhapsthey're not connected
necessarily, and I don't speakfor high schools.

Mark Herring (08:13):
Yeah. Can you for anybody listening? And they're
hearing us talking about STEAMlearning? Do you want to just
define it? What what it means inyour eyes, like, what is steam
to you?

Joe Brown (08:22):
Yeah, definitely. So I mean, steam sort of comes on
the back of STEM as I understandit, which was really looking at
getting kids into subjects suchas a scientist, so you know,
becoming a scientist technology,so is the tea engineering and
maths, which had a very, very, Iguess, sciency more analytical,

(08:42):
yes side to it. And then steamis bringing in the arts. So
you're not just looking atvisual art, you're looking at
bringing in a whole range of, ofarts. So you're looking at, you
know, dance, drama, music, allof those elements plus also
culture. So for me, looking atwhat, where I am that the place
that I am in on the planet, andalso where a lot of our kids

(09:05):
come from. Linking with cultureis really, really important.
It's, you know, kind of how we,how we're human and how we
linked together. And I thinkthose art subjects are
incredibly important. So really,when you look at it, the acronym
steam looks at bringing all ofthose subject areas together. So
it's pretty much every subject,I feel every subject that you

(09:26):
cover in school,

Mark Herring (09:27):
I was gonna ask, What do you think the
differences between integratedlearning and steam then because
it sounds very much, you know,when I first started teaching, a
lot of the teachers that I wasaround had been involved for a
long time, and we startedtalking about integrated
learning, and I was saying, Oh,we were doing that in the 70s
and 80s. Yeah, well, firstly, Iwas like, I don't even think I
was born then. You know, butit's been around for a while,
hasn't it? You know, I'm gonnashow butterflies and we'll do

(09:48):
butterflies through maths. Andwe'll get through science and
we'll we know it'll be athematic kind of approach. A lot
of schools do that. Yeah. It wassteamed different to that.

Joe Brown (09:56):
Yeah. So and actually, I'm going to show my
age because that's how I learnedto teach To start with, and
actually when I was exploringthis, I was like, I don't even
understand why this is thething. Why does this have to be
a thing? Isn't this justintegration? And so I think
there's probably a few differentanswers to this question. And
I'm not even sure whether thesebits of answers are going to
answer the question. So pleaseredirect me. But I think when

(10:18):
you do a project involvingsteam, a steam project, it's
never going to equally addressall of the elements of the
curriculum. So I'm just thinkingabout some of the projects and
the the things that the kidshave been doing here for our
steam fair. And you often findthat they're weighted in more
more of maybe two or threesubjects rather than the others
or elements of steam. And so Ithink we've integrated learning,

(10:41):
you take what applies, butyou're trying to integrate every
curriculum area into it, andsome of them don't naturally
particularly fit, you know, it'sa bit of a false connection. So
I think it releases you fromfrom perhaps that too, there's
also different ways that you canintegrate programs. So looking
at whether it's teacher led, orstudent directed, or a blend of

(11:02):
both of those. And so I thinkprobably through Steam, it seems
to me through Steam, it's easierto look at something an issue or
problem or something that youwant to create from a variety of
different angles. Whereas for mewhen I was looking at integrated
learning, and when I learned howto teach, it always seemed to

(11:22):
come from one particularparadigm. And I'm probably sure
that you've got loads oflisteners that would go hang on
a minute and, and argue thepoint. But yeah, that's sort of
my thoughts.

Mark Herring (11:31):
Yeah, with your program being around
sustainability. And I know thatthat's a real passion of yours.
That's where that element of theproblem solving approach comes
in as well, isn't it it's notjust coming at the curriculum
from lots of different anglesit's doing through, it's doing
it through the paradigm of aproblem and a solution. But
you've got that tell us aboutthe sustainable element, because
a lot of people I talked to, whoare developing steam learning in

(11:54):
the school don't often have thatas a major focus in this school.
And I've, I've loved youexplaining this, you know, and
why that's a passion of yoursparticularly.

Joe Brown (12:02):
Yeah, I'll try and do it justice, I guess it's a
passion of mine. Because I feelas though that if we're not
understanding that we are allconnected, and that everything
we do as a species has animpact, whether it's positive,
negative, neutral, or a mixture.
And if we're not understandingthat, yeah, that we are a part
of our environment, then I thinkthat we're possibly potentially

(12:26):
doomed. And I feel thateverything we're teaching needs
to have come through that sortof a lens. So we're looking at
systems thinking, we're lookingat bringing people together
rather than fragmenting. Um,there's a lot of stuff going on,
that's out there, that's quiteworrying. And a lot of it's

(12:47):
quite fracturing, you know,community society. And I just
think that we need to look howto work together more to solve
some of these issues that we'refacing. And so I mean, there's
another layer, and that thenisn't there, you're looking at
character, characterdevelopment, being secure in who
you are, you know, that theissues with anxiety, and all of
that sort of stuff, all of thisbears apart, and plays a part.

(13:08):
So I think that's probably someof my rationale, there's a lot
more that I could talk about,around why sustainability is
important. And I mean, it shouldreally be something that flows
through everything we do. But Ifound that a lot of the kids
don't really seem to have thatunderstanding of connection,
that we are all connected, andwe are very deeply firmly

(13:29):
connected to our environment,and whatever happens in our
environment is going to affectus and vice versa. And we can't
do anything about that

Mark Herring (13:38):
on a lighter, human, relatable Connell level
for all of the even just for thestudents in your classrooms, to
know that they're connected withthe other people in their rooms,
just through social media or,you know, things that they do,
you know, posting on Instagramyou to hear from teachers all
the time on a Monday saying thatmost of Monday is spent
unwrapping all of the damagethat was done on social media

(13:58):
through the weekend. Yeah, juston that particular level, not
even looking at theenvironmental impact. Just
looking at the social impact. Weare all connected now. Everybody
in our communities areconnected, you know, locally and
globally. So that kind ofunderstanding is so
multifaceted. What does thatlook like in your program? So
walk us through, you know, fromthe beginning of when your

(14:20):
students arrive to your classand your program. And I know
that you don't have the samestudents throughout the whole
year. So it might be quite goodto give people an understanding
of that. What is the sustainableprogram look like from beginning
to end? And how do you roll thatout with him?

Joe Brown (14:32):
Okay, so it's so you have to understand that this has
gone through a lot ofiterations. Yeah, it's an
innovative process, right? It istotally, and pretty much at the
end of every term, actually,after every lesson, I reflect on
what I've done, change it andtry new things for the following
lessons at the end of everyterm. I tend to come up with a
new way of looking at things anda new way of scaffolding. So a
lot of it's around scaffolding.
And so, there are themes thatrun all of the way through.

(14:55):
We've been looking a little bitat recall recently and looking
At the link that the kids havebetween the initial sort of
theoretical learning and thenmoving into the practical
project. And do they actually atthe end, remember why they were
doing it in the first place. Sothere have been some things I've
learned around that. Butbasically, they come in, I have
them for it's eight weeksmaximum, and I have them for a
double period. So I don't thinkit's ever been that I've had

(15:18):
them for the entire 16 hours. Soyou're probably looking at
somewhere between 12 and 14hours that I have them for. So
we start off by looking at whatsustainability is, what is it?
Why does it matter? Why do wecare, and I take them through a
series of games and puzzles,talk that show them that things
are connected, talk about thefour pillars of sustainability,
and why that matters to us. Andthen we go out and do some work

(15:41):
in our school environment. Sofor example, we'll go and look
at the animals and how theyrelate to the four pillars of
sustainability, which we look atas being a society, culture,
economy and the environment, andthe fact that that everything is
actually interlinked. So whenyou're looking at, you know, if
you're having a conversationabout animals, and you're having
a conversation about, say,cultures, have different

(16:04):
cultures interact with animals,then often you've got a
conversation around economy aswell, you know, how animals are
moved around, which will thenyou lead you to into the
environmental world? Is it allhumane? What about pest animals,
etc, etc, etc. So you startopening up a conversation, and
that's really all the firstcouple of lessons are around
opening up conversation, makingsure that nobody everybody knows

(16:25):
that there's no right answer,there's no wrong answer. And
even your most weird, crazy ideajust might work. And that
sharing ideas are really good.
Because often, we don't makedecisions on our own. If you're
thinking about solving a problemin your life, you're probably
going to include other people inthat discussion. And often
someone will come up withsomething that you go, Oh,

(16:47):
that's a brilliant idea. I'mgonna use that or modify that.
So it's all about sharing. Andthen we go into systems
thinking. So we're all part of asystem, what are different
systems? How do they work linearsystems, cyclical systems,
closing the loop. So again,adding into that conversation
around sustainability, and thenI'll take them into a design

(17:07):
brief. So I'll usually pose aproblem to them. This is if they
have an understanding of steam,if they don't, I'll go through
the design, what the designprocess looks like, alongside a
steam activity, just so thatthey understand the process that
they're going to follow. Andthen we introduce the design
brief. So for example, thisterm, it's all around for my

(17:28):
classes, this term, it's allaround looking at animals. So
animal husbandry, how we treatanimals, how we care for
animals, what do we do withanimals that are stray or not
wanted anymore? Can we come upwith some some action that we
could do around that? Is there aservice that we could provide?
Or is it about looking at ouranimal, the animals in our

(17:49):
school and addressing theirwelfare in some way, so we're
looking at animal husbandry, allof the things around why it's
important to us, so then theyare able to go and choose
whether or not they'd like to dosome sort of an action. So I'm
looking at, you know, efficacy,and all of that sort of stuff,
and having a voice within thecommute community. So we're
looking at society, whether it'ssomething cultural, some

(18:10):
practice that they'd like tochange, or that they think
everyone should know about, thenwe're looking at the
environment. So with that,specifically, the environment
that our animals that arecaptive are in. So whether it's
your pet in the back garden, orit's our school pigs, or goats
or chickens, or whatever thatmight be and then of course,
there's the your economics soangles, so you know, you could

(18:32):
perhaps use something making usediscarded leather leather that's
going to be thrown awaysomething like that. What are
animal products? Or what is thevalue of enhancing the way that
our animals live in captivity?
And what what's the value ofenhancing them for us? So you
know, obviously, healthier meat,less pollution, all of that sort
of stuff, more relaxed animals?

(18:54):
Yeah. And so they're alwaysrequired to go and make a
prototype. So they have todesign that they go follow the
design process to do that. Andit's linked, I'm trialing this
term linking it a lot moreclosely to culture through
stories, and particularlyplayspace. Project base. So
what's in our local area? Whatare the stories around our local
area, and looking at us beingthe concept of Kaitiaki, Tonga,

(19:18):
and so us, but us having to bekaitiaki for some of the animals
that were used to be kaitiakifor the land, and for us,

Mark Herring (19:26):
you will need to explain what that means for for

Joe Brown (19:28):
guardianship. Sorry, yes, xiety and ships. So the
idea that, you know, we used tohave animals that looked after
us looked after our place, butactually, there are examples now
of times where we need to lookafter those animals to be able
to look after us. So you know,there's a story of okay, the
dolphin, for example, and I'msure quite a lot of your
listeners would probably befamiliar with that.

Mark Herring (19:48):
Yeah. So So in terms of the teaching input that
goes into managing thatsustained, doesn't sound like an
easy process and for a lot of uswho are in the classroom, and
we're running an English readingright? Doing science or we might
be a science specific teacher ina high school. We don't
obviously have a steamsustainable program that we're
guiding students through adesign thinking process. Why

(20:09):
should I as a teacher, whyshould I care? What what's the
impact on the students? That'sthe first question. Well, I've
got two, two main push backsthat I often hear from us. I
want to hear from you. What,why? Why would firstly, why
would a teacher want to jumpinto this type of design,
thinking steam, sustainablepractice kind of program?

Joe Brown (20:27):
There's a few reasons. One, I'd say probably
for all all teachers is theengagement of kids. And
generally, I found and actually,it's been interesting, I've been
doing, I've been interviewingkids as a result of our steam
fair. So students and teachersjust gathering some data. And
their conversation was really,really interesting. So all of
them said that they had foundthis to be one of the most

(20:50):
engaging fortnight's thatthey've had, that they loved the
collaboration, they loved thatthey could collect so much, so
many different ideas from a lotof their friends, and that they
could distill it problem solve,you know, that the whole
critical thinking, the pros andcons, etc, to come up with
something that they were goingto try. They loved the fact that
they didn't have to be right.
And that making mistakesactually gave them a better

(21:11):
final product, because that'swhere you learn the most. So
looking at that the test, youknow, the the, the ideate,
prototype, test, assess, andthen go back gave them a lot of
freedom. They also really,really enjoyed the share at that
sharing of knowledge and beingable to use other people's
ideas, but in the modificationprocess. Now you could say,

(21:31):
Yeah, but I run a really goodlesson. And my kids are really
engaged anyway, and theycollaborate. And I'm sure that
you're probably right. And Iknow that they do in my in my
room. But it's just beeninteresting that the kind of the
jump in, in engagement, and alsofrom teachers that don't like
say, you've got a maths teacher,and they've been with their

(21:53):
foreign class, and they've beendoing a whole range of other
subjects, the kids are gone, oh,they don't just know about
maths. It's not just that theirmaths teacher, that's not just
where maths sits. And so I thinkby by, you know, teaching this
kids some skills, say thatthings you have to cover, and
then giving them a project to beable to consolidate that
learning because I think whenthey do and apply, especially if

(22:14):
it's a hands on thing and makingthing that that goes in a lot
easier, I think also it helpswith recall, because they have
to then apply their knowledge toproduce something. It's so I
mean, those two things have beenhuge, the conversation has been
a lot more varied. So I thinkthat that's been really cool.

(22:35):
And I think that kids, you know,in life, we don't ever use just
one thing, we bring all of ourknowledge, our prior
understanding and our skills toanything we try and solve, you
know, situation and issue,whatever that might be. And so I
think it begins to give kidsthat idea that actually, this is
real learning, and the otherbonuses, you can bring it into

(22:56):
something that actually can makea difference to someone or
something. Yeah, I mean, one ofthe examples I was giving to the
kids today was you know, youbring all of your experience.
And then when you find that youdon't have a piece of knowledge,
that's when you go and find it.
So for example, let's say you'remaking planter boxes, you've
created your planter box, butyou want to know how much soil

(23:18):
goes in it. And even then areabut you haven't learned volume,
what is it that you're going toneed to go and learn next volume
is brilliant. How are you goingto do that? We could ask our
maths teacher, we could look itup on YouTube, we could ask our
friends, you know, so there's alot of different stuff that
comes into this. Yeah,

Mark Herring (23:35):
I think one of the one of the other key pushback
that we often hear from teachersis that I don't have enough time
for this. And I've also got someassessment that I need to be
able to do. Yeah, you know, sothose are the requirements from
a student point of view, likewhat you're talking about, as is
exactly at, it's the fact that,you know, I don't need to be
doing something just so that Ican get an assessment at the

(23:56):
end, essentially aboutdiscovering solutions to
problems and it's okay to bewrong. You know, it's not about
me impressing the teacher with aset of knowledge, it's about me
finding a solution. So thatbecomes the focus too many of
our kids have kind of likegamified, the education system,
haven't they? Because it's allabout, you know, what do I need
to do to get the credit mess,you know, I'm sitting back on
what I'm doing, because I don'tneed to because they've already

(24:17):
passed that credit or that gradeor whatever that's coming up.
It's a completely differentapproach. They almost forget
that they're learning. Andthat's what we want. We want
students to become a school, soengaged and so enthusiastic
about what they're doing,because they feel like they're
making a difference. The trickis, though, and I'm keen to
understand what what yourthoughts on this are? How do we

(24:38):
as teachers who are in maybe asiloed classroom, where we're
teaching science, and you'rehaving these conversations with
the teachers at your school,because not all your teachers
are in the sustainableEnterprise Program? How do you
as a teacher, do that? How doyou integrate steam into your
classroom in a way that enhancesand capturing captures all the
good things about that programwhile delivering the curriculum?

(25:00):
and still hitting my assessmentpoints.

Joe Brown (25:02):
So I'll give you an example of a conversation I've
just had with a teacher. But Ialso need to offer a little i.
So I'm lucky in that I don'thave quite the same hoops to
jump through if I can like that,in terms of assessment, as a lot
of other teachers do. But so sothat's one thing from me. But I
do still have to assess them.
And at the moment, I'm playingwith ways to do this. But one of

(25:22):
an interesting conversation Ijust had with someone was I'm
looking at New Zealand historiesand using steam within the New
Zealand histories program. Andso we were talking about, in
fact, this two conversationsI've had, but this one we were
talking about, Well, how couldthat look because you need to
depending on what your focus is,you need to assess where they're
at or what they're producing. Sowe were talking about the fact

(25:45):
that they wanted to exploredifferent paths, sites. And so I
mean, for me, there's a hugerange of ways that you could
explore that and build them Imean, online, if you for
example, Minecraft, you can, youknow, build a pass site, you can
go and do virtual tours and lookround pass sites, you can ask to
get beat GPT to give you a wholeload of information about past

(26:05):
sites that you then have to goand cross reference to make sure
it's okay, because sometimes itcan be a bit Wikipedia.

Mark Herring (26:12):
I find like my one of my role is interpreting
mighty language. So apart forpeople who might not have heard
is mighty as a Maori forfortification, yes, historically
used, you know, back in preEuropean days, but also in
clinical times as well. So yeah,

Joe Brown (26:25):
so in order to make let's say that your steam
activity is going to make a tobe making a reproduction of a
past site, or however you'regoing to do that, whether it's
you know, 3d modeling, or handson physical modeling, or you're
using a program or whatever, youhave to know a lot about a past
site to be able to build it. Sofor me, it's like, well, what

(26:46):
are you trying to assess here?
What do you want to? Are youtrying to assess the kids story
writing ability? Or are youtrying to assess what knowledge
they've picked up about howMaori people used to use a past
site, for example, this isprobably a terrible example. But
yeah, if you're going to then bea kid, and you're building one,
you're going to present it insome way, you're going to have
to be able to explain what allof these parts are, how they fit

(27:09):
together. So I think it's aboutknowing what it is that you want
to assess. And then just comingup with a creative coming up,
not just coming up with acreative way to do it. So yeah,
another example could be um,alright, let's say we're doing
measurements. And actually, Idid this with a group of kids,
um, a boomerang back to theschool. So I did this with a
group of kids when I was herethe first time. And I was given

(27:29):
a group of kids that were reallychallenged in math. So I think
when I got them, they couldn'ttell me how many centimeters
were in a meter, kind of thatlevel maths. And so we did some
some skills lessons, which Ithink probably had the same
impact as their teacher haddone. So not much. And then we
went outside, and we I was givena grass area. And the brief was

(27:50):
to change this into our gardenbeds. And so you know, you
talked through what a garden bedhas to be, how wide it has to
be, do you want to pick thingsyou want people walking through
the middle? How many can we fitinto this space, and then we
built them. And by the end ofthat project, I had those same
kids adding and subtracting anddecimals. And you wouldn't have

(28:11):
time to do that, as a mathteacher, you know, again, times
a thing, probably taking yourwhole class out, or three
classes that you have howevermany to go and do that sort of
thing might be a bit of amission, there are other
activities you can do that aresmaller, and that take less time
or are more contained, that youcould use, I mean, steam
activities can be an hour long,they can be you know, a day

(28:32):
long, a week long, and a termlong. So it just depends on the
time that you've got. And Ithink it's just about, it's just
about a different perspective onthings. But yes, it's more work.
It's definitely more work in theplanning stage. Definitely. For
me, I've known I've noticed thatI've put a lot more into my
planning and my scaffolding. Butthen once you're in there, and

(28:54):
once they get it and get theprocess they have to follow,
they actually fly and it createsso much more independence, I
think, and more collaboration,that I find that I am definitely
much I'm able to be much more ofa facilitator that they can use
me as a resource rather than I'mthe teacher, and I'm telling you

(29:15):
what to do. And a lot of thekids that come to me do have
that? Well, I don't know, well,what should I do now? Well, why
aren't you telling me and allI'm doing is asking them
questions? Yeah, yeah, there's alot more thinking you have to do
in here.

Mark Herring (29:27):
100%. And I think there's two things that you've
heard on that one is, you know,as teachers, we're often tasked
with a curriculum, which isusually based around some
understandings or some big ideasor some skills. And so that can
tend to be our focus. So we willstructure the learning that will
give you the knowledge or giveyou the understanding or give
you the skill to be able to dosomething but what we fail to

(29:48):
recognize and sometimes it'stime or sometimes that's you
know, just because it's hard andwe have to kind of get into that
facilitator mode as opposed tothe teacher mode, which
sometimes can be about me justgiving you the information.
Whatever it is I need to do. Butoften we forget that the best
way to understand or to actuallymake the learning sticky for
understandings, knowledgeskills, that type of thing is

(30:09):
actually the application. Yeah.
And so like I remember, youknow, you'd be in writing, and
you'd sort of, you know, when Iwas teaching English in primary
school, you'd be teaching anessay approach. So you want
these kids to be able tounderstand what it is to
construct an essay. And so youteach them how to write an
essay, or a letter or formalwriting that type of thing. And
then you go, right, we need tocome up with some kind of a
process, what are we going to,you know, we need to have an

(30:29):
authentic sort of, so I'll getthem to, you know, write a
letter to the principal about,you know, we want to have a
Mufti day or something likethat. So you'll kind of do it in
a slightly contrived way. And Ithink I think a lot of us are
realizing is there's a realopportunity here to make
learning authentic, right, fromthe very start, don't take it on
at the end. So if you're awriting teacher, and you're

(30:50):
focusing on writing, give them asticky question or a problem to
solve at the very start, wrapthat meaningful enterprise
approach where you're thinkingabout the systems and the stuff,
you know, and the problemsolving approach it actually
have that as part of the corecore function right from the
very start to the very end, andyou've got the luxury in that
sustainable enterprise class todo that. But it sounds like

(31:11):
you're having lots of thoseconversations with the
curriculum based teachers inyour school as well. Right?
Yeah,

Joe Brown (31:18):
it is a huge shift.
You know, it's a definitely amindset shift. And easy, it's
easier for some and less easyfor others. And it's exactly
like the kids in class, it'sabout scaffolding people into
it, you know, and through it.
And actually, can I give you areal quick, quick aside, if you
want to, if you want to be lessscared about not quite having

(31:38):
control over where things mightgo, try, try doing an experiment
with a couple of your classes,and just see how much control
you can take away. So forexample, I did it with a cooking
a couple of cooking classes, wedid, all we did was make, I gave
them some ingredients. And I hadsome recipe cards, one with all
the instructions and a title andthe picture, one with just the

(32:00):
ingredients, and theinstructions, but no title and
no picture, and then one withjust the ingredients. And I
asked the kids where they wantedto start. So I try a child this
first to see how it will go. Andthen so the idea is it's about
locus of control. So the morecontrol you give them, and the
less help you give them, themore control the kids have. And
my idea was to do that and seewhen it falls apart. So it was

(32:21):
really stepping back and going,this is going to fall apart at
some point. And Won't it beinteresting to find out where it
does. And I was amazed at howmuch resourcefulness and
resilience was that the kidshad? How much they talk to each
other? Because I'm just like, Idon't know, I don't know, do
you? Do you feel like you wantthe next card yet? So I gave
them all the hardest one. And itwas like, if you really can't do

(32:44):
this, I'll give you the nextone. But are you sure you need
it, you know, got looking ateach other, all of those things
that we want them to do, youknow, 21st century learning
skills, all of those skills thatwe bring into steam, they were
doing that. And for me, it wasso liberating, because it was
like, Okay, I'm expecting totalchaos. And it wasn't as bad as I
thought. So yeah, if you want abit of a lesson in letting go,

(33:07):
try that.

Mark Herring (33:08):
So good. It's something that I'm sure a lot of
teachers, you know, you'retalking about lifting the
engagement of teachers,sometimes just being able to,
you know, go over the cliff witha with a carabiner attached, but
you've got the rope, just takeyour hands off the rope for a
second and see what happens, youknow, like you want to talk
about engaging people, thatwould be one way to go about it.

Joe Brown (33:27):
Oh, and actually the kids, when you say that you're
doing some experiments to youknow, help me be better at
teaching you particularly thesubject, whatever, they actually
give you quite a lot of leeway.
And, like good feedback to letRMSE shouldn't have done that
that was one step.

Mark Herring (33:42):
Well, let's putting yourself in the role of
a learner and you're doing itvisibly, you're modeling what
that looks like, I've alwaysloved that approach, you know,
doing the thing. Callouts? Yeah.
So I've been doing this whenI've been working as an
instructional coach in schoolsaround digital fluency for a
long, long time, encouragingteachers to make the shift from
being a teacher expert to ateacher learner. Because when
you're getting into the digitalspace, particularly or there are

(34:04):
some tools that you have to getacross and, and you find
yourself that in a space wherethe students actually know more
about how to use this tool, orthey pick it up quicker than
you, you have to make thatshift. You know, you can't be
the expert and everything. And Ithink that's what's holding a
lot of us back in the teachingspace from using a lot of these
tools, particularly around theAI. Yeah, there's a bit of a
fear factor about that. So ifyou can be okay with being not

(34:25):
okay, not knowing all theanswers, then I think that's a
real key part of it. Tell usabout one of the roles that you
know, some of the digital toolsthat you're using in that in
that steam program that you'rerunning plays, because it's one
of the things that I think makessteam really come alive. You
know, if we're thinking back tothe 70s and 80s, you were kind
of going through a designthinking process pretty much at

(34:47):
the beck and call of theinformation you had in the
library, and the knowledge ofthe teacher who was in front of
you, but now we've got thislever that technology gives us
to really be able to engagestudents and real authors took
design thinking processes, whatare some of the digital tools
that that are really importantin your class? And how are
students using them?

Joe Brown (35:06):
I think it's really important. And I think that
using the word tool is perfectbecause it is a tool. And so
yeah, so that's how we use it. Ialso have to say that I'm
possibly slightlytechnologically challenged. I've
learned a lot in the last fewyears. But I'm always in that
position where the kids knowmore than me, and I love
learning new things. So I'm alifelong learner. You know,
Curiosity is like my motto. Andso when a kid does know,

(35:30):
something I don't I'm like, wellteach me that. Where did you
find that? Can you come and giveme a lesson at lunchtime? Or
When's good for you know, orright now. And so we use it for
a variety of things. One isobviously research. And one of
my things I say to kids all thetime is like YouTube's like your
best mate. If you don't have todo something, I bet you any
money that there will be atutorial on that. And if not,

(35:52):
you know, you've won yourself$1. But there's always a
tutorial. So we use it forresearch, we started, I started
using chat GPT with my classes.
And that was really cool, notonly because of the information
that it regurgitates in a very,very short space of time, so you
can get a very good overview ofsomething that will direct you
somewhere else. So for example,we've got goats at school, and I

(36:15):
had a group of kids that knewnothing. And actually, we all
realize we didn't know a hugeamount about this particular
types of goats. I've had milkinggoats before, but yeah, not
these anyway. And so, yeah, 30seconds, it gives you a whole
screen of information. But thenit's about using, you know,
being a bit analytical and a bitcritical about it and saying,
Well, just because that'swritten down, is it true? Is it
all true when you know, you lookup on stuff online? No, it's not

(36:38):
always true. Do we know examplesof that? Okay, so what I want
you to do is go and cross checkthis. And so that was a really
good not only great to produceinformation quickly, but also
for those literacy, criticalthinking skills, you can't just
what give get what you're takingon face value. So that was cool.
And then we use a variety ofdifferent, and I'm still
learning heaps about them, butdesign. So you know, you can go

(37:00):
and design not just usingMinecraft to design a space or a
world or a you know, visual ofwhat you might have something
you've designed, but alsodifferent design platforms. And
so there's a few that I'm tryingat the moment. And I've got to
think about four different ones,and I don't have them off the
top of my head, but I'm gonnaget kids to try them. And I'll
let you know what we use. Andit's brilliant, has just started

(37:21):
using for Go Formative, which isa really cool, full assessment
way of assessing kids. So that'ssomething I'm probably going to
try this term too. And thenobviously, whatever they
produce, so we don't all thinkin the same way. And so you
might get a kid wanting to do avideo, you might get in them
want to, you know, do a speechor record something from around

(37:43):
school to add in as examples ofso recording, writing,
presenting, assessing all ofthat good stuff. We also, you
know, do online. And though wealways have paper tools, too.
I'm still a paper user. So youknow, a lot of brainstorming,
things like that will still doon paper, right tool for the
right job. Right? Exactly. Yeah.

(38:05):
And then sorry, real quickly,there's also things like, for
example, automating something,so maybe you're using a micro
bit or something like that. Andso you might add, program that
and add that into whateverproject you're making to, to
automate it.

Mark Herring (38:21):
So it's the right tool that comes up for the right
solution that they're designing.
It sounds to me like you're justusing it as it comes along in
the design process. Rather thanthinking, Oh, we've got this
micro bit tool, what kind ofproblems could we shape, you
know, which, which is one of theapproaches, and we help schools
do that all the time. But yeah,it's always good to be able to
hear about people who are doingit the other way around where
you're drawing on the tool asneeded.

Joe Brown (38:43):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I have planned in to use some
tools for a variety of things,but then it's also about knowing
your classes. So you know, forexample, walking around at the
beginning, listening toconversations going, Ah, you
know, how to code. Brilliant,and I make sure I know about
you, because this could beuseful. And I might, I might
suggest you go down that path.
Often they go no actually wantto really do this, but that's

(39:03):
all good. And you know, so oftenthey'll come they'll come up
with things to or, or say to me,Hey, I've used this at home. Can
we link up with a high school?
And can we go in, I'm used theirlaser printer, and this is the
program that I use to designthis. This is what I've done or
what I want to do. Can I dothat? Can we got to the high
school because we don't have alaser here.

Mark Herring (39:23):
That's super cool.
So So thinking about all of thedifferent people who might be
listening, whether they'reteaching junior students or all
the way up to high school, whatwould be one of the key things
you're you would recommend tothem whenever you're talking to
teachers who are you know,you've got a mainstream class,
you're you might be teachingeverything in the curriculum, or
you might be a specific contentteacher. So you might be a

(39:43):
science teacher, a mathsteacher, a physics teacher or
whatever. What would be one ofthe things that you could
encourage people to do to startintegrating some steam learning
into into what they're doing inthe classroom.

Joe Brown (39:54):
Do you know I reckon, probably, if you've never done
anything before, I recommendjust do Take a one hour one off
steam lesson that doesn'trequire a huge amount of
resources and pose it as achallenge, you know, a problem.
So for example, the one that Idid as an introduction, last
term was, we are all this wholeclass, we are all we were living

(40:17):
many, many, many, many yearsago, nobody else is in this
country, it's just us, we haveto collect our own food, we
haven't actually eaten anythingfor a week, we're on the verge
of starvation, we can findthings too, we need to kill an
animal. So talk about ifanyone's vegetarian or vegan,
obviously, don't cover that. Wewant to kill an animal, we have
to kill a large animal to feedus all, we only want to do it

(40:39):
once. But the problem is thatthis animal, if it spots you, it
will kill you. There's noarguments about whether you
might survive, it will kill you.
So you need to come up with whatand so then we talk about what
kind of projectile we'll need,there's a few rules around it.
And they have to come up withsomething that will fire a
bottle top in between the eyesof one of the other teachers or
they have a box. So it's do youwant a four legged or a two

(41:00):
legged animal, and that'sanywhere in the box is a kill
shot. And we try not to namethem. So obviously, it has to be
from a particular distance. Soyou can be hidden, and it has to
go relatively quickly andrelatively straight. And that
took well with all thediscussion. And then they wanted
to go back and modify thatactually was a whole double
period. But just something likethat, where you've got a
challenge. And it's fun. Andit's fun for you to and it

(41:22):
doesn't require heaps and heapsof resources, they had a set,
you know, a box of resources,and then just talk about it, get
them to try it, allow them to goback and modify. If someone's
got an amazing design, get themto go and show everyone else. It
takes spies from each group togo round and spy on the other
groups and come back with thatinformation. And just make it as
fun as possible. And that willintroduce them to the design

(41:45):
process and steam. And you canalso talk about what the kids
have used. So did you use anyscience? Did you use any math?
Do you think you used any. Andthat will give you an idea as
well of how familiar they arewith the elements of steam. So
it's fun, it's exciting. And ifkids don't know anything about
steam, and if you don't knowthat much about STEAM, it's a
cool way to start. And Iprobably do it with the design

(42:06):
process as well, because theyboth blow flow really well
together. Yeah,

Mark Herring (42:11):
and I remember, you know, I was just thinking,
while you're talking about that,it's almost like with even just
an activity like that, or adesign thinking challenge like
that you can pull anycurriculum. Yeah, you know,
concept or big understanding oranything, there's physics
involved in that, you know, if ateaching an English class, then
you'd be able to do some writingabout procedural writing or, you
know, write up a summary of yoursolution, that type of thing,
there's any way that you could,at any different curriculum

(42:33):
level, you can integrate thatand I remember we were doing a
measurement unit was like youwere saying about meters and
centimeters, and then down intomillimeters, we had just half an
hour to do a Darkthronechallenge. And then the students
had to go away and record inmeters, centimeters, and
millimeters, their best throw,you know, so it was something
really, really targeted, reallyinto authentic around some kind
of a challenge. And then we hada little bit of a prize for the

(42:54):
person who got it the furthest,obviously, because you need to
have competition right?

Joe Brown (42:57):
into their heads.
They're, you know, they're allover it, the kids are all over
it. So it's a nice place tostart. It's a fun place to
start. Or maybe think, well, Ihave to teach the kids this,
this, this and this, how can Iget them to illustrate this to
me in a way that's not sitsitting down and writing a test?
Or, you know, doing an onlinetest? How can I get them to
build something or show mesomething physically that gets

(43:18):
them to demonstrate theirlearning that steam? You know, I
think we get a lot really caughtup in the fact that it's this
whole new thing. And it's, it'sreally difficult. And we have to
do all of these differentthings. But actually, that's not
quite the case.

Mark Herring (43:31):
Yeah. Does that make you kind of make something
present something then? And thenshow your, your understanding or
your skill set around that?
That's fantastic. Thanks so muchfor for sharing that jiving.
It's fantastic. I'm reallyexcited to hear about, you know,
how your program and your Ithink you're just a whole
approach to learning just keepsdeveloping because it sounds
like you're doing a designthinking process on yourself and

(43:52):
your own practice, which I thinkis one of the key takeaways of
this conversation. So thanks.

Joe Brown (43:58):
Thanks very much for having me. I really always
appreciate the opportunity totalk about this stuff. It's
something I'm passionate about.
So thank you, Mark, reallyappreciate it.

Mark Herring (44:06):
That's really cool. Well, we have heaps of
links in the in the show notesas well, if people want to be
able to explore some of thethings enough and you know,
you've got some things online aswell that you'll be able to

Joe Brown (44:15):
do that. And I'm always really happy to have a
chat with people if they're keento do some steamy stuff,

Unknown (44:19):
so to speak. Very cool.
Very cool. Thanks. Bye.

Mark Herring (44:28):
That was a great conversation around lots of
different topics today. So likewe said, if you're interested in
any of the links from some ofthe things that we talked about
lots of resources, lots ofwebsite links, to be able to go
there and share with lots ofother people. Go into our show
notes. You'll be able to seeeverything there and share them
away. If you haven't subscribed,definitely do that. We'd love to
be able to reach as many peopleas possible. And that's one way

(44:49):
that you can get notificationsof when we publish and Bix I
think you were going to shareone little thing to think about
before we go yeah, I

Bex Rose (44:57):
think this this AI stuff in particular I know is on
the hot topic for all of you outthere. I was at a board meeting
last night that came up at theboard meeting. It's just It's on
the tip of everyone's tongue.
Now we've got trainers who areabsolutely across everything
that's coming out, they'regetting updates, they're getting
across it straight away. If youfeel like you need a supporting
hand through this, even if it isaround working out how you're

(45:20):
going to deploy this kind ofstuff in your school, hit us up
bix@utb.bz. And we can come andhave a chat about how we can
support you and this, you don'thave to do this on your own. And
we're seeing what's happeningacross schools in New Zealand,
Australia and across the world.
So don't reinvent the wheel.
We've got this common hex comingin ask us for some help.

Mark Herring (45:41):
Fantastic. Well, I think anybody who's got got that
website, their email address fixat UTB dot B said differently,
give you a call and then we canhave conversation around that.
Great to have you on thepodcast. See on the next one.
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