Episode Transcript
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Bex Rose (00:00):
Tell a kid. They're
really good at keeping you
(00:02):
accountable.
Mark Herring (00:03):
All right, yeah,
yeah.
Bex Rose (00:05):
The kids in your class
you know, if you say you're
gonna do something, gosh, Iremember when I had to fill up
my prize jar or whatever. And Iforget and, and sometimes I
would actually get emails fromthem saying, this is where I was
remember to get the night
Mark Herring (00:20):
Yeah. And this
reminds me like all of these
types of people like it whenyou're in your school as a
leader, you will have thesepeople on your staff and in your
teams, but as a classroomteacher, this is totally
irrelevant, because you willhave this people, these people
as your learners in front of youin your classroom the better
mindset podcast. Welcome to thebetter mindset Podcast, episode
(00:42):
seven. I'm Mark. I'm Vic'sconversations about leadership,
learning and educationaltechnologies. On today's
episode, we launched into twonew segments. Next, the first is
going to unpack some practicalthings that you can do to lead
stereotypical speed bumps onyour team. And Richard, one of
the trainers is going to try andconvince us that spreadsheets
are not just for number nerds.
Okay, big. So what do youtypically do when you have
(01:05):
someone booked for an interview,and then you have cyclones. And
then last night, we had anearthquake, and we've got all
sorts of different things goingon. Sometimes plans have to
change, right? Because for a lotof people, you might not realize
that we record these pretty muchone or two weeks in advance. And
so at the moment, what has beenhappening is all of the cycle is
(01:26):
happening and Auckland, we'vehad to change our plans. So when
you've got to come up withsomething that last minute, you
invent a whole new segment. Sothat's what we're gonna be doing
today. We're inventing a wholenew segment. And what I thought
we could call this new segmentis, wait for it handy how tos.
And so you've also the littlebumper that we've got at a time.
(01:46):
Now, if you're walking on atreadmill or something like
that, and you heard me wrong, Ididn't say hansy. How to that
wasn't Handsy how-tos. And wewant to, we want to but I didn't
tell you that check in advance.
We want to we want to just beable to dive into some things
that are really going to helpyou in the leadership teaching
(02:07):
space in your schools. Becausethis is an education podcast,
we're talking about all thedifferent things that are going
to help us lead, whether we're aleader with a title or whether
we're leading a classrooms. Andso the topic for today, the
Handy how to is all about how todeal with people who are
stereotypical speed bumps. Andit's an analogy that I thought
(02:27):
relates really well to the typesof people in our team that are
sometimes slowing us downcausing friction. Some
analogies, we'll call themanchors or the types of people
that as leaders, we can kind ofsee as somebody who is just
restricting any progress, andwe've got some names for them.
Do you want to give us thosenames very quickly. Next, tell
us speed bump people up?
Bex Rose (02:48):
can indeed and I'm
sure you will picture people as
you go along. So stereotypicalspeed bumpers are Negative
Nancies, The Know-It-All Nigels,Say, YES do NO Nellies and
Skeptical Simons
Mark Herring (03:05):
Awesome. You'll
notice that what we've done with
those is we've got some genderbalance there. And I just want
to have a quick little caveat. Ididn't include any Karen's
because I think Karen's have hada bad rap over the year. I know
some wonderful parents. And ifyour name if you are assignment,
or you are Nancy, that doesn'tmean that we're talking we still
absolutely, yeah, so we're gonnabe talking about those people
(03:28):
specifically, and give you somehandy how tos on how to deal
with people who fall into thatcategory. But something that I
think is quite interesting toreflect on for all of us is the
fact that we can sometimes fallinto that trap, like, I know,
I'm not pointing the finger atpeople and saying that person is
less than we definitely don'twant you as a leader to go
around and start handing outname badges. But just one of the
(03:50):
things that you can do as aquick reflection is thinking
about the times when maybeyou've been a little bit of a
negative Nancy, or some, youknow, you're kind of being a bit
skeptical, okay, so we're goingto talk about that. But we're
going to unpack all four ofthose different types of people.
And that's not exhaustive, butthose are just four that we're
going to look at today, and giveyou some practical how to use to
how to deal with it. But thereare some key things that we
(04:12):
think in the leadership spacethat will help you deal with all
of them at once kind of likefilters or frameworks or ways of
thinking that will help you, youknow, still get the traction
that you want to in your team.
So the first key is to thinkabout the fact that relationship
building is key, right? So youhave to build strong
relationships with those people.
(04:33):
And I know that when I'm whenI'm in teams, and I've got
people who have got those kindsof traits, or they might have
that lens that they lookthrough, it can be really easy
to just sort of avoid them inthe corridor or not. One is it
makes them in the staff room or,you know, like not really warm
to them very quickly. Butrelationship leadership is all
about relationships. It's it'sone of the core pillars, and
something that I think is reallyimportant. And so there are lots
(04:55):
of different ways that you canbuild relationships with people.
I think about the listeningskill, you know, you've Think
about every time that you stopand help them carry something
into their classroom or how, youknow, like, help them pick up
stuff. It's all pennies in thejar, right? It's all those, you
know, building credits for thetime when you actually need
them. You know, is thereanything that you'd add to that
relationship building anythingelse that people can think about
(05:17):
to do that? Yeah, totally.
Bex Rose (05:18):
Last week, we touched
on the workplace love languages.
So knowing what their workplacelove languages, you're not
likely remembering the coffeeorder all the way through to
knowing what their grandson'sname is. So those things really
make a huge difference topeople. But knowing exactly what
would float the boat in terms ofrelationship building would be
(05:38):
key to that, I think.
Mark Herring (05:40):
Yeah, and we even
heard on a recent coaching
session that we had internallywhere someone was saying, you
know, on the coaching notes thatyou're making, right down the
person's name of their partner,what's their dog's name, your
dog's name, you know, when arethey birthdays, those types of
things, and just sort of keepingacross that some people are
really good at doing that. Otherpeople like me, just really not
detail orientated. So
Bex Rose (06:02):
yeah, having never
forgetting my dog's name.
Mark Herring (06:06):
One time, remember
one time? Yeah, yeah. So that's,
that's really good. And also, Ithink, you know, the other thing
that I've got on my notes therefor for building relationships
is just giving people airtime.
So when you're in meetings, youknow, I just saying, you know,
Nancy, what do you think aboutthat, you know, actually doing
that, at this moment, you'redeliberately creating space and
it builds relationship, you'retelling them how much you value
them. So that's the first kindof key that relates to all of
(06:28):
them. The second one is thatwhole idea that came through in
the Good to Great Book, and JimCollins explains this whole
analogy of a bus. And I think asa leader, it's quite important
to have in the back of yourmind, because it helps you deal
with the big picture and not somuch get dragged down into the
low negative interactions thatyou're having in the day to day.
And if you haven't come acrossthat book, it's fantastic. We'll
(06:50):
link it in the show notes Goodto Great is an examination of
all of the differentorganizations that are super
successful and what's made themsuccessful. And in that book,
they use the analogy of a busbeing a group of people who are
going in a direction, and hetalks about how it's important
to do three things. Number one,get the right people on the bus,
get the wrong people off the busand the right people in the
(07:12):
right seats. So when you havethat philosophy in the back of
your mind, and you're thinkingthat lens, then it's, it's a way
to be able to not sweat thesmall stuff, but recognize that
the whole team is on a journey,and that that team might change
over time. But you can just kindof have that collective
direction that you're going in,that the bus is heading and as a
(07:34):
team, but recognize that at theend of the day, there are going
to be some people on your teamwho might just not fit the
direction that you're going. Andthey may have been a perfect fit
for the previous leadership orthe previous version. But as
you've adapted and evolved,maybe they're not the right fit
going forward. So it's not aboutmaking sure that we keep
everybody together. And it'sdefinitely not about thinking
(07:54):
who can I get rid of, and thatspace. But it's just kind of
being aware that as people, wewe form different groups over
time, and sometimes my, my, myleadership style, or my teaching
style might suit one school, butif it evolves and changes, then
you know, I'm going to eithergrow with the company, with the
school or with the organization,or maybe I'll grow out of it.
And so, yeah, I know thatthat's, it's almost those two
(08:18):
keys, thinking aboutrelationships and building
relationships, but then alsothinking about the
organizational health and whereyou're trying to go seem at odds
with each other. You know what Imean? But they can actually work
hand in hand, can't they?
Bex Rose (08:32):
Yeah, that's right. I
think and especially in
Altidore, New Zealand, we talkabout the walker, it's very
similar sort of analogy, youknow, you have this Walker full
of people, sometimes they'rerowing the wrong way, sometimes
they're not at the front of theboat, sometimes they're not at
the back of the boat, so it'sjust other Walker. So yeah, just
making sure, again, people inthe right seats rowing in the
(08:54):
same direction, otherwise, thatWalker isn't gonna go anywhere.
You know, like, if you think awalker is not going to go with
it, if someone on one siderowing, let's run backwards, and
someone on the other side iswrong forwards. So it's
acknowledging that being theperson at the front of the
walker was at the back is theleader and in making in having
(09:15):
the export overview from the toplooking down, and making sure
that people in the right places?
Mark Herring (09:21):
Yeah, there's an
amazing quote that I picked up
recently from Warren Dennis, andhe said leaders are people who
can translate the vision intoreality. And if you've got that
in the forefront of your mind,number one, you have to know
what that vision is whetherthat's the reason that the
walkers going in, but you'reyou're really working hard with
everybody in the walker to makesure that they are helping the
(09:41):
team translate that intoreality. So that those are two
kinds of tensions that you'reholding. In mighty language. We
call that toe so you want tohave a balance between those two
things. See, I'm picking up myvote. Feeling rather chipper
about that, in the analogy thatwe're going to we're going to
break down we're going to Talkabout those four different types
of speed bumpers. So there arepeople thinking about that
(10:04):
analogy, which I think is quitehelpful. We're not thinking
about them lying on the road,you need to go over top of them,
as opposed to feel like that.
But there's a couple of things Ijust before we break them down.
From a an analogy point of view,if you think about the role of a
speed bump on the road, they'reusually in a place that we're
wanting to go past. And as aleader, sometimes in a negative
(10:26):
sense of speed bump can befrustrating, because they try to
slow you down, you feel like youneed to, you know, you're going
in a good direction. And all ofa sudden, we need to stop and
listen to this conversation. Andhere, this person is bringing
this thing up again. And youknow, oh my goodness, that
person, you know, it's been aspeed bump, because they're not
giving us approval for somethingor they might be in the accounts
department. And you know, we'vegot to go through that that's
(10:46):
within analogy connects, there'sa couple of other things. One of
them, sometimes if you go overthem too fast, they can ruin
your suspension. Cars. Yeah,I've never had cars that have
been lowered too far. But if youthink about it, it is quite
funny. It, they can have animpact negatively on your
organization. So if someone'sconstantly being negative, or if
there's constantly slowing youdown, or you know you're having
(11:08):
to go, you know, they'reconstantly affecting that
trajectory of where you'retrying to go and ruining
momentum, it really can have aripple effect across the whole
organization and the whole, thewhole car. I'm just sticking
with his analogy. And then thelast thing, that one of the
worst things that you can dosometimes is that you can see,
you've got a momentum going youcan see a speed bump up ahead,
and you can actually changetrack. So you can go, I'm
(11:30):
actually not going to go downthat road because of x, y and z
and this person. And there's abit of a speed bump, so let's
just change, let's not do thatthing. And it might be that that
was a really good way to go. Youknow, it could be that that was
exactly the direction and thesteps that you needed to take,
but that person's kind of in theway. So those are some negative
I think, impacts at the very endof this, I'm just going to frame
it up as an analogy, and justflip it on its head and see how
(11:53):
speed bumpers can be reallyhelpful. But we're gonna get to
that. So we'll, we'll hold on,you'll have to listen to the end
of this. So shall we shall westart? Let's jump into it. And
let's go have a go through anddo some actual how to use for
each of them. You want to startwith number one?
Bex Rose (12:08):
Great. So let's go
with negative nancies. So yeah,
let's, let's have a look at whatthey look like.
Mark Herring (12:15):
So what do you
think negative Nancy, what is
it? Really? How does it relatein your experience? Okay,
Bex Rose (12:20):
so I'm picturing
someone that says no, before yes
to everything. So the ones thatgo, No, we can't do that.
Because XYZ it and it's funny,because he's just start
picturing people and familymembers and all sorts of people
like it doesn't just have to bethe, you know, business side of
things. The ones that alwayssort of see the negative before
(12:40):
the positive, there'spotentially can spread that
around as well. So but yeah, itcan, it can be really contagious
than negative, depending on themindset of others where their
cup is filled. If it's notfilled to the top, then they
might be more inclined to listento the negative nancies. And
then sort of spiral out ofcontrol there. What else might
(13:01):
happen? What can you tell usabout? Yeah,
Mark Herring (13:03):
yeah, I think
you've had it, one of the things
I've noticed with people whohave got that kind of trait, or
that that Beant of thinking orthat way of thinking is that
they often are a temperatureeffector in the room. So you
know, you might be leaving ameeting, or you might be guiding
something or trying to galvanizeeverybody, and you're trying to
lift the temperature and try andget everyone excited, they can
say one word, or you look atthem, and all of a sudden that
(13:24):
temperature lowers. And so thatcan be a huge that can have a
huge impact on, you know, thefeeling of the room, and just
that whole overall culture. Butone of the things. So here's
some things that you could doabout that one. Number one, I
think you have to reframe, andchange how you see things and
see that type of person in yourteam. Because in one sense, they
can be really frustrating,because it's like, well, here
(13:47):
comes the negativity. And whatthat what that does, whenever
I've encountered it in my, in myexperience, sometimes I can
start judging that person. Andthen they start to get even
more, more negative because it'slike, well, I'm doubling down
because you're not listening tome. And it's kind of like,
they'll set quiet, he's notlistening. I'll say it louder.
He's not listening. Now theystart shouting at you, but they
don't do it in volume. They doit on negativity, they if they
(14:09):
say something that might benegative in that meeting, but
then they don't feel likethey're getting heard or their
concerns that aren't beingaddressed. And they'll go away
and do it even louder somewhereelse. It's just that you're not
hearing. Yeah. And so that's,that's really where it's coming
from. But if you if you flip itaround, and recognize that where
it's coming from sometimes thereare a couple of different
reasons where that negativity isspanning from the roots of the
(14:30):
negativity, sometimes there'sjust some personal stuff going
on for them, you know, and it'ssomething that is kind of
affecting the way that they'reseeing things at work, there
could be something going on athome, and that's where that
relationship can come in. So,you know, it's super important
to ask them, you know, howthings going on, I noticed that
you know, there were some thingsthat you weren't quite happy
with that conversation or if youbring something up, you can kind
(14:51):
of tell on their face, whetherthey're excited by about it or
not, and just understanding theperson but more likely it's it's
really a reaction to Fear. Andthis is the way that they react
to it. So if you've if you takethe time to talk and listen to
that person one on one, or evengive them time to voice their
concern and do the whole fivewhy's approach that we talked
(15:12):
about in coaching, where youjust say, tell me more about
that? Why do you think that'shappening? Why is that? Why will
people react like that? Whyhasn't that happened in the
past, get down to the core root,there's a, there's, there could
be some real gems there, thatcould really help you. So I
think that that's reallyimportant, because if as
leaders, we see negativenancies, as less of a speed
bump, and something that'sunnecessarily going to slow us
(15:33):
down and see it more about agifting of discernment that is
just sounding negative, becauseof the way that I'm receiving
it, you know, there can be areally important impact or step
on the process of the journey ofmaking some decisions, you know,
because you could have some,some ideas and then the person's
negative, but actually, that's,that's a really important part
of that understanding process todecide about making a good
(15:56):
decision.
Bex Rose (15:57):
I think also, if they
don't understand that, why so
we've talked about this beforeon the podcast as well, and they
don't actually they should theysee it as maybe just another
task for no reason, you know,and so I guess it then comes
down to that whole communicationaround, you know, the clarity
piece around the why, and thevision or that kind of stuff, it
could fall out of that as well,if they're just not
understanding and I think, alsonine times out of 10, it's
(16:20):
because they're unsure of theirown capabilities, or their own
understandings of whatever itmight be as well. So they've
kind of put this barrier a wallup, and it comes out as
negativity as well.
Mark Herring (16:35):
Yeah, yeah. And
that was actually in my notes
about this one. This approach,because I think that sometimes
people who are in that space,have learned over time that when
they discern, which we could seeas a gift, and see some things
that other people can't see, inthe past, they may have had
experiences where they've hadnegative responses, or they've
(16:56):
been shut down or told to bequiet. So what they're doing is
they're giving it in a way thatis protecting them. So they're
using the putting up a bigsword, you know, stabbing with a
sword and putting up a bigshield, because that's a defense
mechanism. But if if we can getthem in a space, where we're
accepting and embracing andactually saying, Hey, Michael,
hey, net are using at net,Nancy, I know that you've had
(17:16):
experience in this, likeactually creating a space to
tell us out when can you seeanything that might not be so
great about this idea? Or whatare some of the things that we
haven't thought about? So I cansee on your face that you're
thinking, you know, what I mean?
Or I know that you've you've hadthat experience? So as a leader,
formally and informally havingconversations afterwards, giving
them space to express that,that, that thinking actually can
(17:37):
be a real positive for you. Soyou're kind of turning it
around. Okay, so that's negativeNancy was number two. And the
next
Bex Rose (17:46):
one is no at all,
Nigel. So what comes to mind for
me is the one that goes Oh,yeah, I've done that before. At
my own school, or? Or, or Yeah,I did that, you know, in my last
course or this net? So has beenthere done this? You don't
you're not teaching themanything new.
Mark Herring (18:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Right. It's the person oftenI've been down that pathway
before, and I've kind of seenit, or they've been involved in
the cycle of change before inthe past. And, you know, like,
if you're involved in educationfor longer than 20 years, you
know, yeah, you know, inquirylearning when it was a big buzz.
When I first started teaching, Ihad teachers who were teaching
in the 70s and 80s. And theywere like, oh, yeah, we were
(18:25):
talking about integrated cross
Bex Rose (18:28):
curricular next at the
moment, phonics, teaching
phonics 20 years ago. Yeah,let's come back as a third.
Yeah, Ted, totally, you canpicture them, can't you?
Mark Herring (18:37):
Oh, yeah, yeah,
and often, they those types of
people can be really hard to geton board, because they kind of,
you know, that there might bereally busy people, they think
that they can just, you know, Ilost it out the last wave of
this thing that's comingthrough. So I'm just going to
hold on and wave, you know, lastthe wave, you know, the title
come back in again. So you getthere. So, it can be really
(18:58):
frustrating, particularly ifthey are in a key position in
your team to be able toinfluence others, you know,
often node or Nigel's do have alot of influence, because
they've been in that spacebefore they have that
experience, and they have thatskill set. So some things that
kind of help with that type ofperson or that type of approach
are number one, and includingthem in the process in the
(19:21):
decision making process rightfrom the very start. So if
you've got someone with it,experience, you want them
involved in the ideation phase,or whatever kind of development
of of a new initiative, orwhatever it is that you're
doing, don't tell them furtherdown the track, you know,
because they're going to beharder to bring on board if they
haven't been part of thatprocess. Even if you just give
them an opportunity tocontribute, even if they're not
(19:43):
in the meeting. I think thatthat can go a long way to it and
as a leader that takes someforethought, right. So you've
got to kind of think, who in myteam could be in this space once
this decision is being made. I'mgoing to strategically you know,
for the sake of theorganization, include them at
the very start and I've madethat mistake. I've been involved
in teams that have made thatmistake in a number of different
(20:05):
areas, not just in education,you know, so that that is really
important. But to be quitehonest, sometimes there are
people who are in that spacethat you're just going to have
to go around, you know, justlike we do with speed bumps,
sometimes we just have to go youknow what, I'm just gonna drive
you know how you can go up to aspeed bump, and you can go
around to the lift and the liftcan just go yah, yah, yah, yah,
yah, oh, going on an angle.
There's so many arm and there'sso many ways this analogy could
(20:28):
work. You know, so just try adifferent approach a different
angle. But yeah, I think thatthose are the two key things,
involve them in the process orjust go around them. But yeah,
then there may be some otherthings that other people have
got, they could put some thingsin the comments, email us at
team.
Bex Rose (20:44):
It's a really good way
when you're learning something
new. So it doesn't have to besomething part of education. But
a tactic that I used withouteven realizing it, I think was
one of the team building orculture days, we had one of
those second paid people come toour meeting. And so it's one of
those things we use sip away ona glass of wine, and you learn
(21:06):
how to paint a picture. It's areally sort of paint by numbers
type way of doing it, but itreally does put some people that
No, all the things out of ourcomfort zone. And I think, yeah,
it was a really neat way. Ithink sometimes you can, I can,
like, I can learn new things,you know, and it's the same as
even when I was doing my postgrad. And there were people in
(21:27):
there that hedge been leadersfor a really long time. And so
seeing when they were doingtheir post grade learning new
things, it kind of reinvigoratedthem, you know, like it kind of
made them go, Ah, it's that, youknow, that buzz when you learn
something new, you know, like,it's so so putting them in a
position where they kind of haveto learn something new, because
it's kind of sparks somethingback in your brain and wanting
(21:49):
to learn again. So yeah, couldbe another way.
Mark Herring (21:52):
Yeah, yeah. 100%.
And it's that shift in culturethat we're trying to everybody's
been talking about, how do weabout about developing a growth
culture within your team and nota fixed mindset? That and that's
been around for quite a while,but it's amazing how many
educators you meet, who areefficient, or who are supposed
to be professional learners orprofessional teachers. But with
you know, so many of us are inthis mindset, where we just do
(22:15):
the same thing every year. Yeah,it's yeah, it's a real
challenge. It's a realchallenge. And it's probably
another episode podcast theme,but it sounds like you can work
on number three.
Bex Rose (22:25):
So it moves me number
three, saying yes, do no Nellie,
so yeah, I've all over it, I'vegot it, I've got this and you're
kind of like, put on yourcalendar, put on your to do's
like someone put it on thething, because they're gonna
forget, they're not going to doit. They're just going to say
they're going to do it, and thenwe're going to get a deadline.
And it's not done.
Mark Herring (22:44):
Yeah, 100%, you
can see it all the time. And it
happens in schools a lot, youknow, somebody will go along to
a really good iPad andinvigoration day, it's like,
let's find out all the differentthings that we can do on the
iPad, and the teachers are like,you know, the, the Nalli is
like, Yeah, this is amazing. AndI'm gonna do all this stuff. And
then you go back into the classin a week's time. And, you know,
you pick the iPad up and say,Well, why isn't this charging,
(23:07):
and it's because the multiboxdidn't actually charge and you
realize that it hasn't probablybeen working for the last three
months, and they haven't doneanything with what they've just
learned. It's, it's super easyfor that person to develop this
as a learned behavior over time.
And you know, that adage, asleaders that what you accept is
what you are, what you allow, iswhat you have accepted. So if as
(23:28):
a leader, we can inspire somechange or get an agreement with
everybody that they're going todo something, but if you don't
follow that up with something,in terms of an accountability
setup, then people just kind ofgo Yeah, I can be all
enthusiastic about at the start,but you know, they go behind
closed doors, and you know, it'snever going to happen, actually,
we'll just last this one outand, and in the enthusiasm will
fizzle out. So that is the kindof person that that is very
(23:51):
difficult to sometimes dealwith, because they're not in
your face like a negative Nancy.
And they're not like it's notobvious, like I know it all
Nigel. So some things that youcan do about that number one,
except that you have to be incharge really, of setting
something up, or you can beintentional about creating some
accountability structure there.
So it doesn't mean that you'rewalking around with a clipboard.
(24:13):
But there are little things thatyou can do to try and hold
people's feet to the fire. Sonumber one, when you're in a
staff meeting, or in your teammeeting, or you're doing
something and everyone says,right, we're going to do this
actually make them set acommitment to that. And they say
that people are much more likelyto commit and follow through on
their commitment, if theyactually write it down. And you
can write it down. There's likea percentage follow through rate
(24:34):
that you can track if I say it,you know, there's a certain
percentage that will do it. If Iwrite it down, more people will
do it. But then if I actuallywrite it down, share it with
other people and put my name toit. And then if I know that the
next time we meet, it's going tobe like, Okay, everybody got
what around the table. Tell ushow you went with X y&z You
know, and it doesn't mean thateverybody will do it all the
(24:54):
time, but you're much morelikely to get over the line with
that, right? Yep. Does that So
Bex Rose (25:00):
yeah, I think that's
one of the cool things about
coaching is about having thosecoaching conversations and have
those coaching accountabilitypoints. Because yeah, you do
specifically write down whenthat is going to happen. And
having those accountabilitydates in your diary or on your
calendar is when you startseeing traction.
Mark Herring (25:18):
Yeah, 100%. And I
think when you're making those
commitments to the next point isjust to make sure that that's
specific. So we always talkabout smart goals, I would like
to prefer to focus on theeastern theme. So make it
specific, make it measurable. Sowhen are you actually going to
do it. So I'm going to do this,on this day on this, you know,
every Monday morning, when thekids come in to do their role,
(25:40):
we're going to do X, Y, and Zedand how many times you're going
to do it, so make a numberbehind it. But then the other
thing you can do is actuallypair them up with someone else.
So if you know that there arelots of people who say they'll
do something and then you know,it's just the dust thing that's
in the cupboard, pair it up withsomebody else who you know, is
more likely to do it. So I knowthat Michael isn't an ally. So
I'm going to pair Michael andNelly up so they're going to do
(26:00):
buddy teaching or they're goingto do something
Bex Rose (26:03):
Kelly can they're
really good at keeping you
accountable.
Mark Herring (26:07):
All right. Yeah,
yeah. They can take a class
Bex Rose (26:09):
you know, if you say
you're gonna do something, gosh,
I remember when I had to fill upmy price jar whenever and I
forget and, and sometimes Iwould actually get emails from
them saying, this is where I wasremember to get excited, like
and the night telecare?
Mark Herring (26:24):
Yeah, and this
reminds me like all of these
types of people, when you're inyour school, as a leader, you
will have these people on yourstaff and in your teams, but as
a classroom teacher, this istotally irrelevant, because you
will have this people as yourlearners in front of you in your
classroom, right? So I've hadI've, I've taught year three and
four, and I've had negativenancies sitting there right in
(26:45):
front of me, and I've had say,yes, do nothing. Now, let's say
it's all irrelevant. So. So Ihope we haven't lost any of the
classroom teachers who think ina leadership position because
they astounds me in its ownright. That's a whole nother
podcast series as well. Everyteacher is the CEO of your own
company. If you're a high schoolteacher, you're the CEO of about
eight different classrooms, incompany, so yeah, totally
(27:07):
irrelevant. That's so cool. Sodifferently, things like holding
people accountable, pairing themup with other people being
relentless. Like if you getpeople to commit to something,
it is on us as leaders to makesure that you follow that
through. So for me, I'm terribleat remembering those things. So
if I if I ask somebody to dosomething, or if someone says,
Yeah, I'm gonna do this, then Iwill put it on the agenda for
(27:28):
the next meeting. Or I will makea note of it or put a block on
my calendar, chicken with Beck'sabout this, you know, for next
Tuesday, so there's littlelittle things that you can do to
make that Alright, last oneskeptical summarize
Bex Rose (27:41):
Alright, Skeptical
Simons. Oh, yeah, cuz that's
gonna work because I've we'vedone this not haven't done this
before. Have we in the commentsin the background? It's just
that really passive-aggressive,like, yeah, that you can you can
push them sort of in the corner,like muttering under the breath?
Mark Herring (28:01):
Yeah. 100%. And
after often, they can be very
overt, can't they, but sometimesthey can just be by the very
body language. And like I wassaying, the temperature in the
room we actually speak is thatabout 80% of our communication
is with our face and our body
Bex Rose (28:14):
Leaky faces. Have you
heard the term leaky face?
Mark Herring (28:17):
I was told I'm a
leaky face. I was told that my
resting face my thinking face isgrumpy.
Bex Rose (28:25):
I remember when my
first years of leadership, I got
told I had a leaky face. And soI actually actively worked on
it. So now I'm just smiling allthe time. You know, I could have
had a really bad day thismorning. I'm good.
Mark Herring (28:38):
Yeah, you do it,
you do do a good job. But there
are times when I've seen I cantell exactly what happened. And
so the skeptical Simon, I thinkis quite similar to the negative
Nancy, but they are slightlydifferent. There is a little
bit, it's not just that thenegative that they might be
positive, but at the same time,they might be positive about it,
but kind of inside or to thepeople that they're talking to
(28:58):
they kind of I don't thinkthat's gonna work. It's like,
yeah, who Yeah, let's go, let'sdo it. But you know, actually,
they don't actually put theactions to it. So it can come
across in terms of theiractions. I've had a conversation
recently, we were trying to readsome targets or something. And
we've only just gone into theperiod of all of us looking at
the data and you know, themetrics and what we're trying to
(29:20):
achieve. And I made somestatement, we're obviously not
going to get there. And theperson pulled me up on it
straight away. It was really Ineeded it. It was like we're in
week two, and you're alreadysaying like when they were
definitely not going to getthere in six months. So it was a
good wake up call. And I thinkthat's something that you can do
with skeptical songs is pullthem up straightaway and do some
(29:41):
of the stuff that you're doingwith with with the negative
nancies actually get to the rootcause and just spend time
talking to tell me why it mightnot work that my number one how
to for Skeptical assignments, isto actually realize that they
can be the most powerful peopleon your team once you win them
over, because I think sometimeswhat they're doing is they're
(30:02):
actually got very high levels ofdiscernment. And because of that
very high level of discernment,when you win them over, they
become your biggest champion.
You know what I mean? And soI'll give you an example.
Sometimes you will be workingwith like, we're a training
company, we work with teachersand schools around digital
fluency. And were in theclassrooms with the teachers. So
many times, we might framesomething up with a teacher and
(30:23):
say, you know, we're going tocome in, and we're going to do
some digital fluency with yourstudents around iPad use of
iPads. And they might beteaching five and six year olds,
I know that on their face,they're like, incredibly
skeptical. They're like, they'resaying, Yeah, that'd be great.
I'd love for you to come in. Andone, since they're going, Yeah,
you take an hour off my plate,and you can run the class. But
in another sense, they're like,Yeah, that's you haven't seen my
(30:44):
class? You don't know. Yeah,you're up against it. So what we
do is we use the students toreach the teacher. So they're
kind of like a doorway to reachthe heart and the mind of the
teacher. But once you have them,once they see that five year
olds can create movies in anhour. And once they understand
the engagement that happens withthat student that's been, you
(31:04):
know, a thorn in their side,because they're so disengaged
all the time, suddenly, theiPad, turns them on and engages
them, that skeptical personbecomes your biggest champion.
There are people who are who arechampions just straight out the
gate, you're like one of them.
So you just enthusiastic aboutjust about everything, which is
great. And we need fixes. Weneed people like that. But
sometimes you can get a 2xBeck's. If you can turn a
(31:30):
skeptical person, right, turn
Bex Rose (31:31):
it into a superpower,
turn it into something that will
then share the message becausesomeone who's had their mind
change will be the ones thatshare the message.
Mark Herring (31:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because I've been through all ofthe the reasons why it won't
work. And I've had that changed.
And so they've actually got muchmore, more much more commitment
to the cause. And I've seen thatI've seen schools, you know, at
the start of a process wherewe've worked with them, or I've
been involved on leadership andschools, where the person who
was the most resistant at thevery start becomes the biggest
(32:00):
champion and actually iscritical to the role. That's a
good feeling, isn't it? Yeah.
And it's a really importantthing to have in the back of our
mind as a lens for leaders. Soto wrap this up, you know, how
is saying that sometimes we cansee road bumps as being really
annoying, while if you spin itround and see speed bumpers, so
your negative nancies, you know,Nigel's etc. And if you start to
see them as being a realimportant part of your team, and
(32:24):
an important part of the journeythat your school is on your
leadership team is on, then youcan reverse it round, and you
can use it to get even moretraction. Because if you think
about the analogy, so if I saidto you why why did city councils
and wider regional councils putspeed bumps on the road? But
what would be the purpose of it?
(32:44):
It's obviously drivers, right?
Slow down?
Bex Rose (32:47):
Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Mark Herring (32:48):
And where do they
put them?
Bex Rose (32:50):
In this in places?
That's really hot, really,really easy to go fast?
Mark Herring (32:56):
Right, exactly.
And then
Bex Rose (32:58):
they need to pass.
Yeah, outside schools,
Mark Herring (33:02):
you know,
hospitals, parks, where there
are lots of people around, andthey want to make sure that
people are driving a little bitslower. And it might be in a
high accident zone event. Butwhat the what city councils
don't do is they they put themin the right places, right? So
they have them in the areaswhere you need them. Mostly
don't? Yeah, mostly. But theydon't put them everywhere,
(33:22):
because they're too expensive.
So they're selective about it.
And that's, that's, I think, oneof the takeaways from this whole
analogy, as a leader, you wantto think about where in your
decision making processes andyour implementation strategic
planning? Do you need to havesome of those core people in
your team who can be like thesespeed bumpers? So who's got a
(33:43):
gift of discernment? Who's goingto be on my champion team that
has a really high influence? Orwho might be a little bit
skeptical at the moment, butthen I can turn around and
become one of the most criticalparts of my team? Who say, you
need to think critically wherewe're in the process? Do I need
those people? And how can I usethem, but then at the same time,
you don't want to have them allover the show. So if I go for a
(34:04):
drive to the dairy and I have,and it's only like one kilometer
and I have to go over 15 speedbumps, then that's not good. So
we need to have them in theright places. So I don't want to
be having negative Nancy atevery single meeting and
implementation, spreading hernegativity around, you know, so
I guess like to wrap that up, ifwe see these types of traits and
(34:26):
our team as a positive, if we'rebuilding key relationships with
them, if we're thinkingstrategically and seeing them as
opportunities, and safeguardsaround what we're doing, and
also if we're using them at theright time and at the right
place, and with the rightmeasure, you know, we're only
going to be better leaders andmore successful as schools and
as organizations as we we canbe. So you got what do you think
(34:50):
depends?
Bex Rose (34:51):
Absolutely. I think
that it's really important to
take the judgment out, use useit as an opportunity to refer
leaked on tasks, productivity,anything like that and and use
it for the better make itbetter.
Mark Herring (35:07):
Perfect. That
sounds like a bit of mindset to
me. All right, well, we've gotRichard on the call today, one
of our trainers in Auckland. Andwhat you might be able to hear
in the background is heavy,heavy rain. All right, and it's
not like a buzz of themicrophone. Is it still raining
up there, Richard?
Richard Campbell (35:22):
It's eased off
a little bit. But it is gone
from sunshine to heavy rain.
Weird.
Mark Herring (35:30):
We were just
saying that Bix and Richard,
you're about a kilometer awayfrom each other and ones and
sunshine and ones got backgetting rain. So
Bex Rose (35:38):
welcome to our new
zealand summer.
Mark Herring (35:41):
Yeah, so wherever
you are in the world, you can
you can relate to the fact thatwe've all got different weather.
Last night on the call, I had anearthquake, I was doing a group
call online. And that wasexciting. So yeah, my microphone
was shaking. Anyway, we'redigressing. So what we've got is
this this whole episode, andwe've got two brand new
segments. So we've got a newsegment to introduce you to
(36:01):
Richard. So usually, we've beengetting trainers to come on for
a good to know. But this is alittle bit different. We've
changed the segment up, and I'mgonna frame it for you. If you
go to some YouTube channels,there are certain people usually
in the right out of thepolitical spectrum, they're
usually conservative. And whatthey do is they set up a desk at
the university, and they have asign on the front that might be
(36:23):
quite controversial. And they'llsay something, basically,
they'll have a statement, andthen they'll say change my mind.
So this is the change my mindsegment. Okay. And so what I
want you to do is I want thestatement is spreadsheets if a
number nerds change my mind,right, because we know that
spreadsheets are your thing. Butin terms of books, and I like we
(36:45):
can't stand them, I deletinganytime I have an email that
even has a sniff of aspreadsheet on it. It's in the
trash. And I've got these littlethings that send it like, you
know, what do they call them?
Yeah. Anyway, filters tell uswhy a leader, a teacher,
somebody involved in educationshould use a spreadsheet and not
pass them on to somebody in theadmin team.
Richard Campbell (37:04):
Okay, where do
we even start with it? I mean,
you're blowing my mind when yousay that spreadsheets are
awesome. But the worry, look inthe classroom situation, they've
got so many uses. First thing Iwould do day one, or even before
day one of tuning up for a newyear is I would download from
the learning management system,a list of all my students. And
from there, you can startbuilding things out, there's so
(37:26):
many things that you can use,for example, it's a great way of
tracking all of your assessmentdata. So you can actually start
putting these kids in groupsbased on where they're at. So
mix grouping, you can make surethat you've got some high kids
and low kids, if you want to dostreaming, you can do it that
way. I know that's a dirty wordat the moment streaming. But
there's lots of different thingsthat you can do just for
(37:48):
grouping how you want those kidsto be structured, the filtering,
if later on, you want to getinto something exciting, like
pivot tables, and these aren'tthings that come to you
overnight, I know, come on.
Mark Herring (38:02):
You're out the
door. Explain that to us.
Richard Campbell (38:09):
And we'll get
the door. No, something can do
that. But it's a really nice wayof being able to look at your
data so that you're, you'reactually got a data driven
assessment, so you know whatyou're teaching, one of the
things that I love the most, Ithink that's probably the most
powerful is I'm very much avisual person. So that's another
big scary word for you. But thisone's called conditional
formatting. So that data that'ssitting inside your spreadsheet,
(38:32):
if you can have that color toget you high needs kids, or
somebody who's not doneparticularly well in assessment,
if it comes up automaticallyred, you can see at a glance
that, you know, this could beone of those kids that you need
to give more attention to.
Likewise, if they're coming upgreen, you said, Hey, let's pair
off a red and a green kid. Andthey can help each other so you
can see at a glance, who's who'sdoing well, and who needs a
(38:54):
little bit more support.
Mark Herring (38:57):
Yeah, that
conditional formatting is a
visual, like it's I'm veryvisual. And I like that kind of
approach. And if it's set up forme, it doesn't need to be you
doing that, right. You can get atemplate off another teacher
who's like you who's a bit of anerd, I could say Richard could
create a conditional formatting.
And I just want to put the namesin. And then like that would
Richard Campbell (39:15):
work right?
Absolutely. So yeah, anothergreat feature Mmm, it's in a lot
of applications in Word andExcel Docs and Sheets as well as
that Format Painter use it inWord and, and the format fader.
So basically, it copies theformat and you can use it in
Word or sheets or any of thosethings. So it also gets the
(39:38):
conditional formatting as well.
So once somebody sent it once,you can just copy it and paste
it over. Just takes all the hardwork out of doing it more than
once.
Mark Herring (39:48):
And some of those
systems you know the systems
that you can buy like there areplatforms you can buy online and
pay monthly fees for that giveyou that data overview. Your you
can actually do that for freeyourself and In Google Sheets,
and Microsoft Excel and numbers,you know, in the Apple
ecosystem. Yeah, I
Richard Campbell (40:05):
think one of
the things I love about
spreadsheets is it's like apuzzle, you know, you've got
this data. And you're I mean,there's a million ways to solve
any problem. So it's about howyou do it. It's I guess it comes
down to I know, you talk a lotabout the geniuses minds, the
inventor genius. And that playsin really, really nicely to
sheets. It's a way of, ofcreating and coming up with new
(40:25):
ideas and just how you solvethose problems.
Mark Herring (40:28):
That's cool. All
right. So there's two things I'm
starting to warm up a littlebit. And
Richard Campbell (40:33):
here's another
one. So remember, I was saying
out of your learning managementsystem, when you download that
file, and you start having allyour names, you can start adding
things to that not just theassessment data, but you could
have email addresses, you canhave parents email addresses. So
rather than having to creategroups, you can just copy that
whole list of parents or studentemails, and then paste them
(40:55):
straight into your emailproduct, whether it's Outlook or
Gmail. So a nice quick way ofbeing able to copy and paste. So
Mark Herring (41:02):
everybody, BCC, so
they don't see each other.
Richard Campbell (41:06):
Yeah, you
don't want parents communicating
behind your back?
Mark Herring (41:09):
Yeah, reply all.
Richard Campbell (41:14):
If you want
to. It's funny, you mentioned
this, too, because I've beendoing this morning is recording
some videos on mail merges. Andthis works really, really well,
especially with Excel. So ifyou've got this list, you can
actually send it individualemails at a push of a button,
and it goes to all the parentsand it can rather than say, your
child, you can have the child'sname in there. So Dear Mr. Mr.
(41:34):
Jones, or Mr. Smith, Dear Bob,if you want to just to the first
name, your son, Fabian has beendoing really well in maths. In
fact, this is the percentage hegot on, we wouldn't use
percentages, but this is the howhe's doing. And you're gonna
send out personalized emailswith all that relevant data, to
(41:56):
individual emails to individualparents, it can be done at a
push of a button, and they justsends out you know, 30 emails
and you look in your inbox. And,you know, within three seconds,
you've got 3030 emails going inthe outbox. It's also great
communicating with your schoolsas well. If you're,
Mark Herring (42:12):
if you're leading
a soccer team, or a football
team or something, you know, ahockey team and you want to send
out personalized emails to theparents, introducing yourself
and saying who you are. And hereare my contact details and
things, then you can do that.
Right. So you can have the firstname of the student you can have
Yeah, everything personalized.
That's fantastic.
Richard Campbell (42:28):
You could even
say if you had a like a reading
group say, you know, Hi Bob,your son Johnny is in the
walkies a reading group. Andthis week we're going to be
focusing on Mrs. wishy washy orwhatever book it is you happens
to be that you're reading. So,again, it will go out to
everybody in that group. And Iknow another scary word filters.
You can filter it just to thewalkies group and send it
(42:49):
straight out to them. So really,
Mark Herring (42:52):
that's like I
think, you know, in terms of
like, warming us up, I'mdefinitely a lot more
interested. But there's somethings that I know a lot of
teachers listening to the specs,they'll be sort of thinking,
Well, I don't know what the heckis talking about mail merge. I
don't know what a pivot tableis. That's a good lead into some
of our online courses. Right? Socan you tell us where can people
go if they want to get some ofour online courses or some
training books would
Richard Campbell (43:13):
be that would
be a great person to get in
touch with, depending on whetheryou know, you've got a pod
contact with us. I would love tocome into school and help you
with things. It is my jam it isfills my bucket just working
with sheets. just lit up. Iknow. Right? You don't have to
be a nerd. I mean, look at lookat this face, you know, this is
not good looking.
Bex Rose (43:37):
Yeah, I think it
sounds like they're really big
help with that efficiency andproductivity. He's in our jobs.
And when you're spending time onthese mundane, Admony type
tasks, that means it's less timeon spinning with the kids and
creating learning experiencesthat are really going to shift
to student achievement. So if wecan really streamline those,
(43:58):
those tasks, that's a win. He'swon me. I
Mark Herring (44:02):
got one more
button. Oh, one. Yesterday, this
is what nerds do. Sorry. This is
Richard Campbell (44:09):
one thing,
okay. When you're in the morning
in the classroom teacher, you'vegot all these kids come in and
you're sitting out for the day,it's probably the most chaotic
time of the day. That beforeschool.
Mark Herring (44:22):
Right out the back
where the books were. Yeah.
Richard Campbell (44:26):
If you've got
a camp on or a Mufti day, when
kids are coming in, and theythey're giving you money,
they're dropping it on yourdesk, then you've got no idea
who has dropped that money. Soif you've got a spreadsheet, you
can have it just a tick buttonand say, yep, they've done it.
And they've given me $8, which,where it's, you know, it's also
they can be a $10 note whereit's a $5 fee. So I've got to
(44:46):
give them some change. And youcan go through in all of those
things that you've done. Youjust highlight them and it will
give you a total so that youwhen you count up your money and
you sending it off to theoffice, you know that your
balance is
Mark Herring (44:58):
so good. And even
better than that. You can get a
student to do that. Exactly. Soyou get
Richard Campbell (45:03):
this student
who you trust and is quite
capable. And you can share thesheet with them, they have
access, and you can even limitwhat kind of access they have.
So they can't go deleteanything. Of course, you're only
going to do it with somebody whoyou you're a little bit
comfortable with. And they canlook after that for you in such
great learning. And then there'steaching statistics with it as
(45:24):
well. But we weren't evengetting there because we just
don't have time. But yeah.
Mark Herring (45:29):
Well, you've
changed their mind. Yeah, like,
Oh, I think it's something thatwe do differently. But if you
need some training on this, ifyou're listening, and you're
thinking that would be reallygreat. We do have some online
courses that you can sign upfor, we'll put a link in the
show notes. And we'll we'll getin touch, you can get in touch
with us, and we'd love to helpyou out with some training.
Thanks.
Richard Campbell (45:47):
Awesome.
Cheers, guys. We'll catch youlater.
Mark Herring (45:53):
Episode Seven all
over pigs tell us what you
think.
Bex Rose (45:55):
Yeah, well, the silver
lining with this weather event
was that we actually got to havea bit of a deep dive into those
stereotypical speed bump teammembers. And I think we could
all relate to one or many ofthose types of behaviors that we
described today. Or perhapswe've sunk into those
stereotypes ourselves from timeto time. I guess it relates back
to ensuring that we don't letour own well being and our cups
(46:18):
get to empty because when we canhandle these types of situations
far better when we're feelingour best. That was my takeaway,
and I'm kind of ashamed to admitthis, but I really want to go
and Deborah sheets now I feellike my life would be better
with them. And so thank you,Richard.
Mark Herring (46:35):
Yeah, and I think
I'm definitely warming to them,
which is saying something forprobably how much I loved them
normally. So yeah, I'm gettingcloser, Richard, I think you did
a good job. So if you have tosome of the links or resources
that we've mentioned today, havea look on the show notes and
make sure that you'resubscribed. We post every single
week and we'd love to have youkeep up with this. This is
episode seven. So who knows howmany episodes down the track
(46:56):
we'll be getting to. If you knowsomeone who would get value from
those episodes, hit the sharebutton and let them know and
tell them about your favoriteepisode. I'm sure there's
something on there that youwould specifically like to call
out. Lastly, if you havequestions or anything to share
with us, email us at team atusing technology better.com We'd
love to hear you and see younext week. Kaki day see ya