January 1, 2026 • 30 mins
Jonathan Lau, Director of Talent Acquisition at Super.com, joins us to unpack how in-house recruiting can bridge the gap between talent strategy and business goals. With years of leading experience, Jon explains how elevating quality of hire over speed reshapes value, the importance of data collection, and candidate experience creating the first touchpoint of influence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Welcome to the show, John.
Everybody tuning in, we got JohnLau with us today.
He's the director of talentacquisition over at super.com.
John, thanks for being here.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well.
Thanks for having me.
Very excited to have you heretoday.
I know our audience tuning in isreally looking forward to
learning more about you.
And I was hoping you could sharea little bit about your
(01:08):
background and who you are.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
So I'm John.
I'm up here in Canada.
I'm not sure how many of yourlisteners are in Canada, but I'm
in a city called Calgary, whichis close to the mountains.
In terms of career, I havemostly been in recruiting for
scaling tech companies.
So almost all in kind of themid-size.
I've been on like SaaS, B2C, awhole bunch of different
(01:30):
companies.
But I've been fortunate inseeing like a lot of growth
during these last probably 10years of recruitment.
I would say something that makesme like a little bit unique in
the way that I got intorecruitment is that I came up
very homegrown.
So a lot of recruiters did theiroriginal stint in agency
recruiting or like an RPO modelor something like that, and then
(01:53):
moved into in-house, or viceversa.
There's plenty that have donevice versa.
But I've never had kind of ataste of agency recruiting,
which is probably both good andbad.
I would say like after havingboth worked with and had team
members that have had experiencein both, I think what I've been
really fortunate to learn aboutthese different roles that I've
(02:15):
been in is that I've had thefortune of being a true like
business partner with a lot ofthese companies that I've helped
hire for.
But I do lack kind of thathunger and volume and like
intensity that I've seen like alot of agency recruiters have in
the past.
So it's been really fortunatethat I've gotten to work with a
lot of them in the past becauseI've learned a lot as well.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Well, yeah, that's it's always good to have a blend
of experience and backgrounds.
And I think, as you put it,there's value to both.
I think starting in-housedefinitely has its value too
from your very first experiencesin town acquisition.
You're really thinking probablya little bit more deeply around
quality of hire and the impactof the hires that you're making
(02:56):
versus just thinking buttons andseat for commission, right?
Believe me, I know that there'sa lot of great contingent
recruiters out there on theagency side.
Of course, I run an embeddedrecruiting agency, right?
So we're a bit of a differentmodel, we're more RPO.
But I do think that on theagency side, there does tend to
be that emphasis on sales andclosing the deal as the
placement versus in-house.
(03:17):
It's when you make thattransition to in-house, or in my
case, like embedded, it's likereally more so outcome focused
from like a quality of hirelong-term perspective.
I am curious that maybe we cantalk about your first position
in talent acquisition and whatgoing directly in-house, what
you think that taught you fromday one and kind of formed your
(03:39):
perspective on how to fastforward where you are today
running a TA program for uh fromwhat I could tell online, a
company scaling very rapidly,very well funded, very
successful.
Going back to those early days,like what you learned in those
experiences, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
Yeah.
So I mean, my first thing intomoving formally into recruitment
was when I was at a local SaaStech company called Benevity,
which I originally started inthe customer success team.
There's a very large overlappingVenn diagram between customer
success and recruiting, I think,when you think about what like
candidate customer experiencelooks like.
And so something that alwaysinterested me, and I think
(04:17):
drives like a lot of recruitersin general, is the goal of both
creating an amazing candidateexperience and also finding like
a dream job for a candidate.
Getting that like initial hit ofsomeone else getting the role
that they're looking for givesyou this kind of drive to keep
it going.
(04:37):
And so when I was first startingas like a junior recruiter or
kind of stepping in, that'ssomething that is palpable right
off the bat, is being able tosee them.
What is really fortunate againabout being in-house is I now
get to work with these people.
And so I get to see them performin the roles, I get to see them
lead teams, I get to see themkind of make an immediate
impact.
And then as I continuerecruiting, I'm still working
(04:59):
with these folks.
So whether they were candidatesthat have now become my hiring
managers, I can kind of see whatthat like long-tailed
performance looks like.
And so later on my career, youget super focused on the metrics
of quality to hire.
You look at the actualorganizational impact of the
folks that you hire.
Even when you're just likestarting out as a recruiter, um,
(05:20):
you have that data point of whois still here and who is not
still here over a period oftime.
And you can start collectingthis data, you know, on your own
of who are the types of folks,um, skill set-wise that that are
really working and are makingsense.
So I say, like when I firstmoved into that first role, that
like candidate experience,really seeing candidates land
(05:40):
their dream role was the firsthit.
But I think as I evolved intorecruiting more and been in an
IC role longer and longer, thesecond hit of it is how the
talent you brought in isevolving the business that you
are, you know, recruiting for aswell.
Sometimes if you've been at anorganization that's scaling fast
enough and you're hiring seniorenough level roles, you might
(06:03):
hire half the people in thecompany.
And so there's, you know, thecompany is completely different
from what it could have beenbefore you joined.
And you have a huge contributionto that.
Hiring managers ultimately makethe decision.
The executive team ultimately isdeciding the trajectory of the
company.
But the level of influence thatyou have from being a TA partner
(06:23):
or recruiter into the talentthat joins an organization, I
think is underrated as a whole.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
I think so.
I see almost the talentacquisition role, lead recruiter
or uh director or VP.
It's you're almost like thisinvestment manager.
You have this massiveeight-figure, often for growth
stage tech, eight-figure budgetto bring folks on board.
And you're deciding who gets infront of the hiring manager and
(06:51):
who's ultimately going to buildthis company.
These are millions and millionsof dollars in investment.
You're making decisions on uhwho's gonna be staffed up in
these roles.
And I think that that's a lensor perspective that is really
important for founders and CXOs,really, any anybody working
alongside talent acquisition toknow it's like, look, the people
(07:13):
you have in talent are reallydriving and managing the largest
investment that you're making,that they're making, and are
gonna impact business successmore than anything else, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
And like I think with the strong caveat that no
one is ever always going to getit right.
And so, you know, cautioningthat like while there is this
degree of influence, it's notlike we're not prone to making
mistakes at all levels.
So whether it's the TA partners,whether it's the executives
themselves, all those kinds ofthings, you know, you've seen
(07:46):
the positive that comes from uha hire that is perfectly aligned
to the organization.
And you've also seen kind of theopposite happen where like you
can tell quite quickly whensomeone is is not gonna work
under the organization.
And so, you know, making surethat those expectations are set
from the get-go is is is gonnamaximize your success.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
I think um, you know, recruitingis never gonna get to 100%
success.
Like, I mean, you can do all thework uh on the interviewing and
analyzing, but there are just somany factors.
I mean, it's a people business,right?
And to some extent you can'tpredict things with a hundred
percent uh accuracy, but there'scertainly trends and best
(08:26):
practices.
And I think it's really yourgrowing up on the in-house side
is really valuable.
And I want to just like go intothat a little bit further.
I do do any like realizationscome to mind or light bulb
moments as you were in that townacquisition for maybe a few
(08:47):
months or a few years, but thatreally started to shape your
perspective on hiring even more.
Maybe it was the success thatyou had or a challenge you had
or a conversation with a leader.
But um, I'd love to learn moreabout what has shaped your
perspective into the the townacquisition leader you are
today.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
I think what's fortunate is that as you kind of
continue growing in the TAspace, you're obviously speaking
to hundreds and hundreds ofcandidates all the time, which
are all data points that yougain.
But you also are speaking tohundreds and hundreds of
internal stakeholders all thetime, whether it's at, you know,
(09:26):
at your current company or justover your career, you are in
this fortunate position whereyou get to talk to both sides of
the stakeholders likeconstantly.
Your job is basically likecalibrating both sides of it.
And so as I've learned more andmore of the businesses that I've
been a part of to how folksthink about hiring, um, you
(09:49):
actually learn a little bit moreabout how not a lot of people
know a ton of stuff abouthiring, that everyone's kind of
trying to, you know, make thebest ways work.
Everything is trying to makescience out of art in the same
way.
And I'm not saying that thereisn't a way to make it a lot
more um systematized, the hiringprocess, but you're also dealing
(10:10):
with people at the same time.
And so for all the differenttypes of folks that you work
with, whether they are chiefpeople officers or they're chief
technology officers and CFOs,you know, everyone's trying to
make sense out of something thatlike is really hard to make
sense of, which ultimately islike matchmaking, uh, talent and
roles that you're hiring for.
(10:31):
And so that challenge, which,you know, as of today and in
2025 has not been solved, ofexactly how to find the right
people, you get thisextraordinary ability to
experiment all the time.
And not treating it from a senseof like using folks to
experiment on, but that you getto try and constantly improve.
(10:56):
And I think that that's wherebeing in the tech industry also
has been very fortunate is thatbecause of the speed of growth,
um, and because of, I think, therisk tolerance of a lot of these
types of organizations, there'sa big favor of experimentation
and innovation.
And while we're doing it withproducts, we're doing it with
data, we're doing all of thesekinds of things across the
(11:18):
business, why not also do it intalent as well?
And so find new ways ofassessing, ask more questions of
candidates, find better ways tocreate the experience better for
all parties.
And I think that like unsolvablechallenge to date is the thing
that has made recruitingcontinuously enjoyable.
(11:38):
I think some folks early intheir careers burn themselves
out in recruiting because theythink of it as just entirely
cyclical.
All it is is just finding a roleand filling the role, and then
you move on to the next one andit can just like burn you out
real quickly.
But if you approach it from likesolving an overall problem or
(11:58):
really trying to build thebusiness from the talent
perspective, I think there'sjust like constant opportunity
to be able to make a differenceand make changes.
And that has led to like a lotof fulfillment in this space
where I've been in the careerfor, you know, approaching 10
years now.
And to date, like I'm constantlyfinding new areas that that I
haven't explored that that areopportunities.
SPEAKER_01 (12:20):
That's great.
That's great.
And then um, you know, I wantedto talk about fast-forwarding to
where you are today.
I was doing a little bit ofresearch before our call.
Um, I it looks like super.com isa late stage company with over,
I believe I saw 150 million infunding.
Uh, pretty significant growthand but not mistaken in the
(12:42):
fintech space, is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
Yeah, we're in like the travel and the fintech
space, but it's a consumer, it'sa consumer product.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Consumer product.
Okay, yeah.
Well, I'm I'm familiar with ituh a little bit.
And um, it sounds like thingsare moving really fast.
And my assumption would be isthat this is the type of role
you're in that's really pushingyou to expand and to break
through and to uh find solutionsto scale, right?
And staying on top of everythingwhile it's moving so fast.
(13:11):
I would love to get a sense forwhat it is that you're looking
to accomplish over the next 12months from the perspective of
building out a TA program,enabling your team to hit growth
objectives through hiring.
Like, what are you up to?
What are your goals?
And then we can kind of diveinto how you're thinking about
solutions and overcomingchallenges.
(13:33):
I'm looking forward to hearingmore about that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
Yeah.
So, you know, I I've been atSuperDocom for like about a
year, and and previous to this,I had been at other scaling
organizations here in Canada.
And I think something that I'velearned at this stage, now at
like my fourth kind of uh largertech company is, or sorry,
mid-stage company is that it'sso easy to think that you can
(13:58):
recreate what you didpreviously, where it's like,
I've been part of a growingorganization.
You know, I've hired a ton oftalent, I've doubled the org,
troubled the org in X period oftime, I can do it again at
another organization.
And I think like as a side note,a lot of hiring managers think
the same of candidates that ifthey have done it before, they
can do it again, and it's goingto be the same.
(14:21):
What I have learned myself isthat every single time it has
been incredibly different.
Um, and even though if you wereto look at them all on paper,
the same things happened, whichis essentially we added a lot of
people in a short period of timeand like seen a lot of success,
and the quality of hires havebeen good.
The way we did it had to bereally different because
everything about the product andthe executives and the
(14:43):
leadership is all entirelydifferent.
And so when I came in here, Ithink I had that, you know, I
think confidence about me whereI was like, it's gonna be fine.
Like I'll know what I'm doing.
I'm gonna be able to do exactlythe same thing that I did at Neo
and I did at Well Simple and allof this kind of stuff.
And then when I joined, it wasentirely different.
And so I think something thatlike I've been really focused on
(15:08):
here over this last year hasbeen getting like incredibly
curious with the executive teambecause learning the philosophy
and the approach to growth iswhat dictates how you're going
to build it in line with theirvision.
And so I have been withorganizations in the past where
recognizing also it was at apoint in time.
(15:29):
So when Wealth Simple wentthrough their incredible level
of growth, it was also in 2020,2021, where the entire talent
landscape was entirelydifferent.
And so the way we grew then isgonna be very different than
2025, where, you know, talentteams in general, executive
teams in general are so muchmore conservative.
(15:50):
And so, how do you act in linewith what the investors as well
as the executive team arethinking about?
And what is their like, what istheir interest and buy-in to
technology?
What is their interest in buy-inversus of like full-time
permanents versus like there'sall these these like strongly
held beliefs that don't reallyhave like a lot of foundation,
which is like, I believe likefull-time permanents are
(16:12):
stronger than contract uh orsomething like that.
And then that will kind ofdictate how they want to see
growth.
And it's kind of up to you tothink about, you know, how are
we leveraging data to make itmake sense to how we should be
growing as we continue?
So maybe there is a right mix ofcontractors that we should bring
in that will give us moreflexibility down the road.
(16:33):
Maybe there are this subset ofFTEs that like make the most
sense to like make this mix thehighest performing organization
as we can.
And so I think this year hasbeen really great.
And then I've learned a lotaround how to build an org for
super.com.
I think like as I look in thefuture, as AI, of course, has
been like growing updramatically in this last kind
(16:54):
of couple of years.
I'm still learning around howit's going to work.
And so connecting with a lot ofother TA leaders, you know,
having a lot of conversationsand learning how other folks are
doing it is kind of key todictating how your strategy is
going to grow as these yearskind of progress.
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
Yeah, I think it's um that makes a lot of sense to
me, right?
Every culture is going to bedifferent, executive teams are
going to have differentapproaches.
And there's no substitute fortime spent, right?
Uh having those meetings,discussions, like figuring out
what's important, right?
I'm assuming also to figure outwhat's worked historically, what
(17:31):
hasn't.
How much time do you spend withyour executive team?
Maybe it's it's shifted asyou're now at the organization
over here, but just to put thata little bit more context and
guidance to other leaders tuningin.
Like, is it are you meetingweekly?
Like how often do you spend timewith the executive team?
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
Yeah, I would say I'm really fortunate here in
that I get to spend a lot oftime with the executive team to
the point where I got uh I wasable to partake in like our
leadership team offsite thatjust happened a couple of weeks
ago, um, where I get to be inthe room where a lot of kind of
higher-level discussionshappened around resourcing as
well as business strategy, a lotof that.
And, you know, I have been partof organizations where that
(18:12):
wouldn't even be a conversationwhere like having a TA person in
the room at that point like justdoesn't have a lot of value.
I think I've been reallyprivileged in that that level of
insight has given me so muchmore influence around how we are
resourcing and where we areresourcing to be able to be that
(18:33):
much more effective.
I think I think I mentioned atthe very beginning that like,
you know, I can't overstate howmuch of an impact hiring the
right talent into the growth ofthe org is going to make.
And so, like, what is the costof giving more insight to TA
leaders into business strategyand growth?
I would say it's fairly minimal.
(18:55):
Uh, you know, I'm not likecoming in and I'm just asking a
million questions anddistracting and derailing the
conversation.
I think I'm like a participantat the table, which um helps
influence how we are growing.
And I would like to say that ithas been extremely successful.
I'd it's easy to recommend toother TA leaders to try and be
part of those conversations, butreally where it comes from is
(19:17):
showing them what the value isthat you can provide.
And so how can you articulateit, whether it's through data,
whether it's through being astrong stakeholder with them,
all of those kinds of things arewhat are going to kind of like
earn you that credibilityinternally.
SPEAKER_01 (19:31):
Do you have any specific examples of that
throughout your career where youneeded to gain influence or you
needed a shift to occur in orderto help the company achieve
their goals?
And how you approach that withthe leadership team or how you
were able to get their uh buy-into give you a seat at the table,
(19:54):
right?
Anything because I think thatthat's probably a common enough
obstacle that sometimes townacquisition leaders find
themselves in, particularly atthese like at scale-ups, right?
Things are moving fastly.
The TA motion is needs to evolvereally quickly.
And it goes from maybe afunction that really isn't
thought about too much, or thefounders are directly managing
(20:17):
hiring to where now it's like,okay, we're scaling, and it we
need a more sophisticated or uhapproach, or we need something
that's a little bit moreestablished.
And it's a big transition,right?
So any stories or or wisdom thatyou can share in terms of how to
what you did in the pastspecifically, I think through a
story kind of helps, right?
If if you have a specificexample.
SPEAKER_00 (20:39):
Yeah, I think I mean this is going to be pretty
rudimentary because it's fairlycommon knowledge at this point.
But earlier in my career,Organizations, I mean, some
still do, is they live and dieby time to fill, which is just,
you know, how quickly can we gettalent in the door?
And there's so littleconsideration around the quality
of the hire.
(20:59):
And so, you know, early on whenthat was the metric that we were
all measured against was time tofill or volume of hires, finding
a way to articulate the ROIaround the time and the energy
that you're spending to make ahire versus their success in
place is a big feat to be ableto show it.
It requires a lot of data to beable to collect and it requires
(21:22):
a lot of collaboration as anentire HR function.
I think like talent often can beconsidered an asilo as part of
HR.
But your tie to the rest of thepeople organization, um,
specifically like the businesspartner and know the
performance, long-termperformance over time, is going
to give you the full loop offeedback that you need in order
(21:44):
to show ROI of the types ofmetrics that you use.
So if time to fill, or, youknow, a lot of I think
organizations like to talk aboutnumber of volume of candidates
at certain stages of thepipeline.
It's so kind of one-sided of adata point versus really
emphasizing what finding theright talent or like putting the
(22:07):
work up front to get the righttalent through the pipeline will
give you.
And so how would kind of saythat in in very short order is
basically like collect all ofthe information that you can
around what time to fill lookedlike or the volume of hires, and
then look at the success rate ofquality over time.
And then look at the kind of thecorrelations of the people that
(22:29):
were the highest quality, whatare the common traits that they
had over a period of time?
So something that is reallyinteresting about super.com that
they had done, actually, this isprior to me joining, was looking
at the success rate of sourcecandidates versus inbound
candidates, and actually foundthe inverse of what people
mostly think, which is that, youknow, people love source
candidates.
They're just obsessed withsource candidates because they
(22:51):
feel like they're better.
And that, you know, that can betrue in some cases, but like I
don't think that there's like aunified truth to source
candidates being better.
And we found that over a periodof time, our inbound candidates
and applied candidates performbetter.
I think there's also like an HBRcast that that proves the same
thing, which is that, you know,inbound candidates are more
(23:11):
mission-aligned, they tend to benot overly comp as comp
competitive as sourcecandidates, and will be more
bought into the organizationover a longer period.
And so if you're able to justeven show that metric, it
completely turns on your head,uh on its head the the
philosophy that a lot ofexecutives think, which is like,
I want talent that I can't have,which is sourced source
(23:34):
candidates.
And so that's a really goodexample of being able to use
data to create that credibility.
And then it influences yourhiring strategies moving
forward.
Maybe you don't need a sourcingrate, you know, is the one that
you're kind of going off of.
So um, yeah, that's just kind oflike one quick example.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
Oh, yeah, that's a great example.
Um, I appreciate you sharingthat.
That's definitely somethingthat's top of mind for a lot of
folks.
And um, you know, John, I wouldlove to go through some uh our
our rapid fire uh segment withyou and go through some
different uh questions that uh Ithink a lot of people are
thinking about right now, oralso just insights of what's
(24:10):
impacted you or influenced yourather uh throughout your
career.
So I got the big question foryou, the fun one that's I've
been talking through with all ofour guests is uh will AI replace
recruiters?
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
I I don't have a crystal ball, so I won't say
strongly that I know or notbecause of how much AI has
changed.
I would say if I was to look inlike the next year or two, the
approach I think is that arecruiter in combination with AI
will vastly outmaximize AI byitself, but will also outmax
maximize like a recruiter bythemselves.
(24:44):
So I think the recruiters thatare able to adopt AI up front
now, as well as just really getthemselves up to speed on how to
leverage it, are going to bevast and more successful.
I will say that I'm alreadystarting to see that AI is
really replacing thatcoordination layer, which is
going to be a challenge as wecontinue to grow because you
(25:05):
know, what does the successionplan of recruitment look like as
we continue to grow?
Um, you might have to now startmoving directly into being an
early recruiter versus goingthrough a coordination path.
But I do think the way that isprogressing, like coordination
is definitely starting to getsqueezed.
SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
That's a good answer.
I love it.
What is the best piece of careerearned leadership advice you've
ever received?
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
This is like very, very early in my career.
So, you know, this is going backprobably longer than I'd like to
say.
And it's oversimple, but I thinkI want to stress how much it's
influenced the decisions thatI've made, which is that when
you think about how you aretreating others, it is really
just it's a really small world.
(25:50):
So it's a small world out there.
You might have certain audiencesin mind when you're
communicating certain things.
You might think that, like, youknow, how the experience that
you give someone versus you givesomeone else is going to be a
one-and-none thing.
But people come in and out ofyour life in so many different
ways, whether it's personally orprofessionally all the time,
(26:12):
that like the way you treatpeople is how they're going to
remember you.
And so, you know, you can usethat for candidates.
Of course, candidate experiencecomes to the forefront.
But hiring managers, leaders,other folks that you've kind of
networked with in the past, it'sa very small world.
And I don't mean that you got tobe inauthentic in any certain
kind of way.
But ever thinking that, youknow, this person or this
(26:36):
experience won't matter to me inthe future, I think is like
short-sighted.
I think always thinking abouthow small the world is
important.
Agreed.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
That's solid advice.
What is the one book that hashad the biggest impact on your
life or career?
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Yeah, this is a book that we read organization-wide
um when I was back at WellSimple, but it's called
Unreasonable Hospitality.
And it is by Will Ghidara.
He was the previous, I believehe was like the general manager
of Eleven Madison Park, which isuh like a Mission One Star
restaurant in New York.
I've never been therepersonally.
But a lot of it was around howthey're treating their guests at
(27:11):
a given time.
And even though I'm not in theindustry, I'm not in the
restaurant industry at all, Ithink it's about creating that
elevated experience and thinkingabout every kind of small detail
as like outweighing the impactthat it gives is something that
like has kind of come up indifferent ways, especially when
we're in this external facingrole of being NTA, of every
(27:34):
little element down to how youwere emails, you know, how the
career page is set up, howyou're having your
conversations, every single partof it is so impactful and can
change someone's life in anygiven way.
And so, you know, I'd highlyrecommend that book.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
Yeah, that's smart, right?
It's like the compounding.
It's like if you make littlemicroimprovements along the way,
it's like that compoundingeffect of when they add up, it's
actually creates a bigdifference, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Love it.
And the last question we have iswhat is the skill every
recruiter will need five yearsfrom now?
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
I would say not five years from now.
I'd probably say now is a skillthat that is underutilized by
recruiters, is probably theirlevel of data insight.
Um, I think data in conjunctionwith AI is just moving this role
and this entire industry.
I think we've seen a lot ofchange over the last couple of
(28:28):
years where folks in HR orpeople functions haven't been at
the forefront of data.
But I think there's hugeopportunity to uh develop the
skill set and become like, youknow, a dual threat of being
able to both deal with the IQand the EQ side of things that
we would kind of pride ourselvesin.
And so from a recruitment lens,being able to really leverage
(28:50):
your, your, your pipeline data,being able to kind of look at
quality of higher metrics, allof these kinds of things and
just getting yourself up tospeed to it will really just
result in a huge return.
Agreed.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
That's really fantastic advice.
Um well, look, John, this hasbeen awesome.
I really appreciate you comingon uh to the show today to share
your insights.
I know our audience is going togain a lot of value from it.
So thank you very much.
It's really, really great tohave you here.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme, James.
Of course.
And for everybody tuning in, wewill see you next time.
(29:21):
Take care.
Welcome to the show, John.
Everybody tuning in, we got JohnLau with us today.
He's the director of talentacquisition over at super.com.
John, thanks for being here.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well.
Thanks for having me.
Very excited to have you heretoday.
I know our audience tuning in isreally looking forward to
learning more about you.
And I was hoping you could sharea little bit about your
(01:08):
background and who you are.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
So I'm John.
I'm up here in Canada.
I'm not sure how many of yourlisteners are in Canada, but I'm
in a city called Calgary, whichis close to the mountains.
In terms of career, I havemostly been in recruiting for
scaling tech companies.
So almost all in kind of themid-size.
I've been on like SaaS, B2C, awhole bunch of different
(01:30):
companies.
But I've been fortunate inseeing like a lot of growth
during these last probably 10years of recruitment.
I would say something that makesme like a little bit unique in
the way that I got intorecruitment is that I came up
very homegrown.
So a lot of recruiters did theiroriginal stint in agency
recruiting or like an RPO modelor something like that, and then
(01:53):
moved into in-house, or viceversa.
There's plenty that have donevice versa.
But I've never had kind of ataste of agency recruiting,
which is probably both good andbad.
I would say like after havingboth worked with and had team
members that have had experiencein both, I think what I've been
really fortunate to learn aboutthese different roles that I've
(02:15):
been in is that I've had thefortune of being a true like
business partner with a lot ofthese companies that I've helped
hire for.
But I do lack kind of thathunger and volume and like
intensity that I've seen like alot of agency recruiters have in
the past.
So it's been really fortunatethat I've gotten to work with a
lot of them in the past becauseI've learned a lot as well.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Well, yeah, that's it's always good to have a blend
of experience and backgrounds.
And I think, as you put it,there's value to both.
I think starting in-housedefinitely has its value too
from your very first experiencesin town acquisition.
You're really thinking probablya little bit more deeply around
quality of hire and the impactof the hires that you're making
(02:56):
versus just thinking buttons andseat for commission, right?
Believe me, I know that there'sa lot of great contingent
recruiters out there on theagency side.
Of course, I run an embeddedrecruiting agency, right?
So we're a bit of a differentmodel, we're more RPO.
But I do think that on theagency side, there does tend to
be that emphasis on sales andclosing the deal as the
placement versus in-house.
(03:17):
It's when you make thattransition to in-house, or in my
case, like embedded, it's likereally more so outcome focused
from like a quality of hirelong-term perspective.
I am curious that maybe we cantalk about your first position
in talent acquisition and whatgoing directly in-house, what
you think that taught you fromday one and kind of formed your
(03:39):
perspective on how to fastforward where you are today
running a TA program for uh fromwhat I could tell online, a
company scaling very rapidly,very well funded, very
successful.
Going back to those early days,like what you learned in those
experiences, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
Yeah.
So I mean, my first thing intomoving formally into recruitment
was when I was at a local SaaStech company called Benevity,
which I originally started inthe customer success team.
There's a very large overlappingVenn diagram between customer
success and recruiting, I think,when you think about what like
candidate customer experiencelooks like.
And so something that alwaysinterested me, and I think
(04:17):
drives like a lot of recruitersin general, is the goal of both
creating an amazing candidateexperience and also finding like
a dream job for a candidate.
Getting that like initial hit ofsomeone else getting the role
that they're looking for givesyou this kind of drive to keep
it going.
(04:37):
And so when I was first startingas like a junior recruiter or
kind of stepping in, that'ssomething that is palpable right
off the bat, is being able tosee them.
What is really fortunate againabout being in-house is I now
get to work with these people.
And so I get to see them performin the roles, I get to see them
lead teams, I get to see themkind of make an immediate
impact.
And then as I continuerecruiting, I'm still working
(04:59):
with these folks.
So whether they were candidatesthat have now become my hiring
managers, I can kind of see whatthat like long-tailed
performance looks like.
And so later on my career, youget super focused on the metrics
of quality to hire.
You look at the actualorganizational impact of the
folks that you hire.
Even when you're just likestarting out as a recruiter, um,
(05:20):
you have that data point of whois still here and who is not
still here over a period oftime.
And you can start collectingthis data, you know, on your own
of who are the types of folks,um, skill set-wise that that are
really working and are makingsense.
So I say, like when I firstmoved into that first role, that
like candidate experience,really seeing candidates land
(05:40):
their dream role was the firsthit.
But I think as I evolved intorecruiting more and been in an
IC role longer and longer, thesecond hit of it is how the
talent you brought in isevolving the business that you
are, you know, recruiting for aswell.
Sometimes if you've been at anorganization that's scaling fast
enough and you're hiring seniorenough level roles, you might
(06:03):
hire half the people in thecompany.
And so there's, you know, thecompany is completely different
from what it could have beenbefore you joined.
And you have a huge contributionto that.
Hiring managers ultimately makethe decision.
The executive team ultimately isdeciding the trajectory of the
company.
But the level of influence thatyou have from being a TA partner
(06:23):
or recruiter into the talentthat joins an organization, I
think is underrated as a whole.
SPEAKER_01 (06:29):
I think so.
I see almost the talentacquisition role, lead recruiter
or uh director or VP.
It's you're almost like thisinvestment manager.
You have this massiveeight-figure, often for growth
stage tech, eight-figure budgetto bring folks on board.
And you're deciding who gets infront of the hiring manager and
(06:51):
who's ultimately going to buildthis company.
These are millions and millionsof dollars in investment.
You're making decisions on uhwho's gonna be staffed up in
these roles.
And I think that that's a lensor perspective that is really
important for founders and CXOs,really, any anybody working
alongside talent acquisition toknow it's like, look, the people
(07:13):
you have in talent are reallydriving and managing the largest
investment that you're making,that they're making, and are
gonna impact business successmore than anything else, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:25):
And like I think with the strong caveat that no
one is ever always going to getit right.
And so, you know, cautioningthat like while there is this
degree of influence, it's notlike we're not prone to making
mistakes at all levels.
So whether it's the TA partners,whether it's the executives
themselves, all those kinds ofthings, you know, you've seen
(07:46):
the positive that comes from uha hire that is perfectly aligned
to the organization.
And you've also seen kind of theopposite happen where like you
can tell quite quickly whensomeone is is not gonna work
under the organization.
And so, you know, making surethat those expectations are set
from the get-go is is is gonnamaximize your success.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
I think um, you know, recruitingis never gonna get to 100%
success.
Like, I mean, you can do all thework uh on the interviewing and
analyzing, but there are just somany factors.
I mean, it's a people business,right?
And to some extent you can'tpredict things with a hundred
percent uh accuracy, but there'scertainly trends and best
(08:26):
practices.
And I think it's really yourgrowing up on the in-house side
is really valuable.
And I want to just like go intothat a little bit further.
I do do any like realizationscome to mind or light bulb
moments as you were in that townacquisition for maybe a few
(08:47):
months or a few years, but thatreally started to shape your
perspective on hiring even more.
Maybe it was the success thatyou had or a challenge you had
or a conversation with a leader.
But um, I'd love to learn moreabout what has shaped your
perspective into the the townacquisition leader you are
today.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
I think what's fortunate is that as you kind of
continue growing in the TAspace, you're obviously speaking
to hundreds and hundreds ofcandidates all the time, which
are all data points that yougain.
But you also are speaking tohundreds and hundreds of
internal stakeholders all thetime, whether it's at, you know,
(09:26):
at your current company or justover your career, you are in
this fortunate position whereyou get to talk to both sides of
the stakeholders likeconstantly.
Your job is basically likecalibrating both sides of it.
And so as I've learned more andmore of the businesses that I've
been a part of to how folksthink about hiring, um, you
(09:49):
actually learn a little bit moreabout how not a lot of people
know a ton of stuff abouthiring, that everyone's kind of
trying to, you know, make thebest ways work.
Everything is trying to makescience out of art in the same
way.
And I'm not saying that thereisn't a way to make it a lot
more um systematized, the hiringprocess, but you're also dealing
(10:10):
with people at the same time.
And so for all the differenttypes of folks that you work
with, whether they are chiefpeople officers or they're chief
technology officers and CFOs,you know, everyone's trying to
make sense out of something thatlike is really hard to make
sense of, which ultimately islike matchmaking, uh, talent and
roles that you're hiring for.
(10:31):
And so that challenge, which,you know, as of today and in
2025 has not been solved, ofexactly how to find the right
people, you get thisextraordinary ability to
experiment all the time.
And not treating it from a senseof like using folks to
experiment on, but that you getto try and constantly improve.
(10:56):
And I think that that's wherebeing in the tech industry also
has been very fortunate is thatbecause of the speed of growth,
um, and because of, I think, therisk tolerance of a lot of these
types of organizations, there'sa big favor of experimentation
and innovation.
And while we're doing it withproducts, we're doing it with
data, we're doing all of thesekinds of things across the
(11:18):
business, why not also do it intalent as well?
And so find new ways ofassessing, ask more questions of
candidates, find better ways tocreate the experience better for
all parties.
And I think that like unsolvablechallenge to date is the thing
that has made recruitingcontinuously enjoyable.
(11:38):
I think some folks early intheir careers burn themselves
out in recruiting because theythink of it as just entirely
cyclical.
All it is is just finding a roleand filling the role, and then
you move on to the next one andit can just like burn you out
real quickly.
But if you approach it from likesolving an overall problem or
(11:58):
really trying to build thebusiness from the talent
perspective, I think there'sjust like constant opportunity
to be able to make a differenceand make changes.
And that has led to like a lotof fulfillment in this space
where I've been in the careerfor, you know, approaching 10
years now.
And to date, like I'm constantlyfinding new areas that that I
haven't explored that that areopportunities.
SPEAKER_01 (12:20):
That's great.
That's great.
And then um, you know, I wantedto talk about fast-forwarding to
where you are today.
I was doing a little bit ofresearch before our call.
Um, I it looks like super.com isa late stage company with over,
I believe I saw 150 million infunding.
Uh, pretty significant growthand but not mistaken in the
(12:42):
fintech space, is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
Yeah, we're in like the travel and the fintech
space, but it's a consumer, it'sa consumer product.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Consumer product.
Okay, yeah.
Well, I'm I'm familiar with ituh a little bit.
And um, it sounds like thingsare moving really fast.
And my assumption would be isthat this is the type of role
you're in that's really pushingyou to expand and to break
through and to uh find solutionsto scale, right?
And staying on top of everythingwhile it's moving so fast.
(13:11):
I would love to get a sense forwhat it is that you're looking
to accomplish over the next 12months from the perspective of
building out a TA program,enabling your team to hit growth
objectives through hiring.
Like, what are you up to?
What are your goals?
And then we can kind of diveinto how you're thinking about
solutions and overcomingchallenges.
(13:33):
I'm looking forward to hearingmore about that.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
Yeah.
So, you know, I I've been atSuperDocom for like about a
year, and and previous to this,I had been at other scaling
organizations here in Canada.
And I think something that I'velearned at this stage, now at
like my fourth kind of uh largertech company is, or sorry,
mid-stage company is that it'sso easy to think that you can
(13:58):
recreate what you didpreviously, where it's like,
I've been part of a growingorganization.
You know, I've hired a ton oftalent, I've doubled the org,
troubled the org in X period oftime, I can do it again at
another organization.
And I think like as a side note,a lot of hiring managers think
the same of candidates that ifthey have done it before, they
can do it again, and it's goingto be the same.
(14:21):
What I have learned myself isthat every single time it has
been incredibly different.
Um, and even though if you wereto look at them all on paper,
the same things happened, whichis essentially we added a lot of
people in a short period of timeand like seen a lot of success,
and the quality of hires havebeen good.
The way we did it had to bereally different because
everything about the product andthe executives and the
(14:43):
leadership is all entirelydifferent.
And so when I came in here, Ithink I had that, you know, I
think confidence about me whereI was like, it's gonna be fine.
Like I'll know what I'm doing.
I'm gonna be able to do exactlythe same thing that I did at Neo
and I did at Well Simple and allof this kind of stuff.
And then when I joined, it wasentirely different.
And so I think something thatlike I've been really focused on
(15:08):
here over this last year hasbeen getting like incredibly
curious with the executive teambecause learning the philosophy
and the approach to growth iswhat dictates how you're going
to build it in line with theirvision.
And so I have been withorganizations in the past where
recognizing also it was at apoint in time.
(15:29):
So when Wealth Simple wentthrough their incredible level
of growth, it was also in 2020,2021, where the entire talent
landscape was entirelydifferent.
And so the way we grew then isgonna be very different than
2025, where, you know, talentteams in general, executive
teams in general are so muchmore conservative.
(15:50):
And so, how do you act in linewith what the investors as well
as the executive team arethinking about?
And what is their like, what istheir interest and buy-in to
technology?
What is their interest in buy-inversus of like full-time
permanents versus like there'sall these these like strongly
held beliefs that don't reallyhave like a lot of foundation,
which is like, I believe likefull-time permanents are
(16:12):
stronger than contract uh orsomething like that.
And then that will kind ofdictate how they want to see
growth.
And it's kind of up to you tothink about, you know, how are
we leveraging data to make itmake sense to how we should be
growing as we continue?
So maybe there is a right mix ofcontractors that we should bring
in that will give us moreflexibility down the road.
(16:33):
Maybe there are this subset ofFTEs that like make the most
sense to like make this mix thehighest performing organization
as we can.
And so I think this year hasbeen really great.
And then I've learned a lotaround how to build an org for
super.com.
I think like as I look in thefuture, as AI, of course, has
been like growing updramatically in this last kind
(16:54):
of couple of years.
I'm still learning around howit's going to work.
And so connecting with a lot ofother TA leaders, you know,
having a lot of conversationsand learning how other folks are
doing it is kind of key todictating how your strategy is
going to grow as these yearskind of progress.
SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
Yeah, I think it's um that makes a lot of sense to
me, right?
Every culture is going to bedifferent, executive teams are
going to have differentapproaches.
And there's no substitute fortime spent, right?
Uh having those meetings,discussions, like figuring out
what's important, right?
I'm assuming also to figure outwhat's worked historically, what
(17:31):
hasn't.
How much time do you spend withyour executive team?
Maybe it's it's shifted asyou're now at the organization
over here, but just to put thata little bit more context and
guidance to other leaders tuningin.
Like, is it are you meetingweekly?
Like how often do you spend timewith the executive team?
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
Yeah, I would say I'm really fortunate here in
that I get to spend a lot oftime with the executive team to
the point where I got uh I wasable to partake in like our
leadership team offsite thatjust happened a couple of weeks
ago, um, where I get to be inthe room where a lot of kind of
higher-level discussionshappened around resourcing as
well as business strategy, a lotof that.
And, you know, I have been partof organizations where that
(18:12):
wouldn't even be a conversationwhere like having a TA person in
the room at that point like justdoesn't have a lot of value.
I think I've been reallyprivileged in that that level of
insight has given me so muchmore influence around how we are
resourcing and where we areresourcing to be able to be that
(18:33):
much more effective.
I think I think I mentioned atthe very beginning that like,
you know, I can't overstate howmuch of an impact hiring the
right talent into the growth ofthe org is going to make.
And so, like, what is the costof giving more insight to TA
leaders into business strategyand growth?
I would say it's fairly minimal.
(18:55):
Uh, you know, I'm not likecoming in and I'm just asking a
million questions anddistracting and derailing the
conversation.
I think I'm like a participantat the table, which um helps
influence how we are growing.
And I would like to say that ithas been extremely successful.
I'd it's easy to recommend toother TA leaders to try and be
part of those conversations, butreally where it comes from is
(19:17):
showing them what the value isthat you can provide.
And so how can you articulateit, whether it's through data,
whether it's through being astrong stakeholder with them,
all of those kinds of things arewhat are going to kind of like
earn you that credibilityinternally.
SPEAKER_01 (19:31):
Do you have any specific examples of that
throughout your career where youneeded to gain influence or you
needed a shift to occur in orderto help the company achieve
their goals?
And how you approach that withthe leadership team or how you
were able to get their uh buy-into give you a seat at the table,
(19:54):
right?
Anything because I think thatthat's probably a common enough
obstacle that sometimes townacquisition leaders find
themselves in, particularly atthese like at scale-ups, right?
Things are moving fastly.
The TA motion is needs to evolvereally quickly.
And it goes from maybe afunction that really isn't
thought about too much, or thefounders are directly managing
(20:17):
hiring to where now it's like,okay, we're scaling, and it we
need a more sophisticated or uhapproach, or we need something
that's a little bit moreestablished.
And it's a big transition,right?
So any stories or or wisdom thatyou can share in terms of how to
what you did in the pastspecifically, I think through a
story kind of helps, right?
If if you have a specificexample.
SPEAKER_00 (20:39):
Yeah, I think I mean this is going to be pretty
rudimentary because it's fairlycommon knowledge at this point.
But earlier in my career,Organizations, I mean, some
still do, is they live and dieby time to fill, which is just,
you know, how quickly can we gettalent in the door?
And there's so littleconsideration around the quality
of the hire.
(20:59):
And so, you know, early on whenthat was the metric that we were
all measured against was time tofill or volume of hires, finding
a way to articulate the ROIaround the time and the energy
that you're spending to make ahire versus their success in
place is a big feat to be ableto show it.
It requires a lot of data to beable to collect and it requires
(21:22):
a lot of collaboration as anentire HR function.
I think like talent often can beconsidered an asilo as part of
HR.
But your tie to the rest of thepeople organization, um,
specifically like the businesspartner and know the
performance, long-termperformance over time, is going
to give you the full loop offeedback that you need in order
(21:44):
to show ROI of the types ofmetrics that you use.
So if time to fill, or, youknow, a lot of I think
organizations like to talk aboutnumber of volume of candidates
at certain stages of thepipeline.
It's so kind of one-sided of adata point versus really
emphasizing what finding theright talent or like putting the
(22:07):
work up front to get the righttalent through the pipeline will
give you.
And so how would kind of saythat in in very short order is
basically like collect all ofthe information that you can
around what time to fill lookedlike or the volume of hires, and
then look at the success rate ofquality over time.
And then look at the kind of thecorrelations of the people that
(22:29):
were the highest quality, whatare the common traits that they
had over a period of time?
So something that is reallyinteresting about super.com that
they had done, actually, this isprior to me joining, was looking
at the success rate of sourcecandidates versus inbound
candidates, and actually foundthe inverse of what people
mostly think, which is that, youknow, people love source
candidates.
They're just obsessed withsource candidates because they
(22:51):
feel like they're better.
And that, you know, that can betrue in some cases, but like I
don't think that there's like aunified truth to source
candidates being better.
And we found that over a periodof time, our inbound candidates
and applied candidates performbetter.
I think there's also like an HBRcast that that proves the same
thing, which is that, you know,inbound candidates are more
(23:11):
mission-aligned, they tend to benot overly comp as comp
competitive as sourcecandidates, and will be more
bought into the organizationover a longer period.
And so if you're able to justeven show that metric, it
completely turns on your head,uh on its head the the
philosophy that a lot ofexecutives think, which is like,
I want talent that I can't have,which is sourced source
(23:34):
candidates.
And so that's a really goodexample of being able to use
data to create that credibility.
And then it influences yourhiring strategies moving
forward.
Maybe you don't need a sourcingrate, you know, is the one that
you're kind of going off of.
So um, yeah, that's just kind oflike one quick example.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
Oh, yeah, that's a great example.
Um, I appreciate you sharingthat.
That's definitely somethingthat's top of mind for a lot of
folks.
And um, you know, John, I wouldlove to go through some uh our
our rapid fire uh segment withyou and go through some
different uh questions that uh Ithink a lot of people are
thinking about right now, oralso just insights of what's
(24:10):
impacted you or influenced yourather uh throughout your
career.
So I got the big question foryou, the fun one that's I've
been talking through with all ofour guests is uh will AI replace
recruiters?
SPEAKER_00 (24:22):
I I don't have a crystal ball, so I won't say
strongly that I know or notbecause of how much AI has
changed.
I would say if I was to look inlike the next year or two, the
approach I think is that arecruiter in combination with AI
will vastly outmaximize AI byitself, but will also outmax
maximize like a recruiter bythemselves.
(24:44):
So I think the recruiters thatare able to adopt AI up front
now, as well as just really getthemselves up to speed on how to
leverage it, are going to bevast and more successful.
I will say that I'm alreadystarting to see that AI is
really replacing thatcoordination layer, which is
going to be a challenge as wecontinue to grow because you
(25:05):
know, what does the successionplan of recruitment look like as
we continue to grow?
Um, you might have to now startmoving directly into being an
early recruiter versus goingthrough a coordination path.
But I do think the way that isprogressing, like coordination
is definitely starting to getsqueezed.
SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
That's a good answer.
I love it.
What is the best piece of careerearned leadership advice you've
ever received?
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
This is like very, very early in my career.
So, you know, this is going backprobably longer than I'd like to
say.
And it's oversimple, but I thinkI want to stress how much it's
influenced the decisions thatI've made, which is that when
you think about how you aretreating others, it is really
just it's a really small world.
(25:50):
So it's a small world out there.
You might have certain audiencesin mind when you're
communicating certain things.
You might think that, like, youknow, how the experience that
you give someone versus you givesomeone else is going to be a
one-and-none thing.
But people come in and out ofyour life in so many different
ways, whether it's personally orprofessionally all the time,
(26:12):
that like the way you treatpeople is how they're going to
remember you.
And so, you know, you can usethat for candidates.
Of course, candidate experiencecomes to the forefront.
But hiring managers, leaders,other folks that you've kind of
networked with in the past, it'sa very small world.
And I don't mean that you got tobe inauthentic in any certain
kind of way.
But ever thinking that, youknow, this person or this
(26:36):
experience won't matter to me inthe future, I think is like
short-sighted.
I think always thinking abouthow small the world is
important.
Agreed.
SPEAKER_01 (26:44):
That's solid advice.
What is the one book that hashad the biggest impact on your
life or career?
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Yeah, this is a book that we read organization-wide
um when I was back at WellSimple, but it's called
Unreasonable Hospitality.
And it is by Will Ghidara.
He was the previous, I believehe was like the general manager
of Eleven Madison Park, which isuh like a Mission One Star
restaurant in New York.
I've never been therepersonally.
But a lot of it was around howthey're treating their guests at
(27:11):
a given time.
And even though I'm not in theindustry, I'm not in the
restaurant industry at all, Ithink it's about creating that
elevated experience and thinkingabout every kind of small detail
as like outweighing the impactthat it gives is something that
like has kind of come up indifferent ways, especially when
we're in this external facingrole of being NTA, of every
(27:34):
little element down to how youwere emails, you know, how the
career page is set up, howyou're having your
conversations, every single partof it is so impactful and can
change someone's life in anygiven way.
And so, you know, I'd highlyrecommend that book.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
Yeah, that's smart, right?
It's like the compounding.
It's like if you make littlemicroimprovements along the way,
it's like that compoundingeffect of when they add up, it's
actually creates a bigdifference, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Love it.
And the last question we have iswhat is the skill every
recruiter will need five yearsfrom now?
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
I would say not five years from now.
I'd probably say now is a skillthat that is underutilized by
recruiters, is probably theirlevel of data insight.
Um, I think data in conjunctionwith AI is just moving this role
and this entire industry.
I think we've seen a lot ofchange over the last couple of
(28:28):
years where folks in HR orpeople functions haven't been at
the forefront of data.
But I think there's hugeopportunity to uh develop the
skill set and become like, youknow, a dual threat of being
able to both deal with the IQand the EQ side of things that
we would kind of pride ourselvesin.
And so from a recruitment lens,being able to really leverage
(28:50):
your, your, your pipeline data,being able to kind of look at
quality of higher metrics, allof these kinds of things and
just getting yourself up tospeed to it will really just
result in a huge return.
Agreed.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
That's really fantastic advice.
Um well, look, John, this hasbeen awesome.
I really appreciate you comingon uh to the show today to share
your insights.
I know our audience is going togain a lot of value from it.
So thank you very much.
It's really, really great tohave you here.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme, James.
Of course.
And for everybody tuning in, wewill see you next time.
(29:21):
Take care.
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