January 15, 2026 • 48 mins
Ana King, Chief People Officer at Sapi, reflects on her journey from Bucharest to London and how cultural studies shaped her philosophy on leadership and recruiting. She shares how building trust between CEOs, finance, and teams, drives profitability and sustainable growth, from hiring for “smart and kind” to aligning people strategy with business outcomes and leading change through listening and learning.
Books mentioned: Daniel Goleman, Hernan Diaz
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Anna King, welcome to the show.
For everybody tuning in, Anna isthe CPO at SAPI.
So, anyways, Anna, thank you forjoining me today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
No, thank you, James.
I'm delighted to be here.
Really looking forward to ourconversation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it as well.
Let's start just uh, we'd loveto learn more about you.
Where are you initially from?
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
Sure.
So I'm originally from a countrycalled Romania in Eastern
Europe.
I was very much born and raisedthere.
And afterwards, when I was 21years old, I moved over to the
UK initially to study, and thenof course to start up my career.
That's pretty much me in anutshell.
(01:29):
And obviously, ever since, I'vebeen pretty much working on that
career, which I guess brought ushere to have this chat today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Yeah, really excited about this.
And it sounds like we actuallyhave to some extent some shared
experiences.
I think I had mentioned in theprep call that my daughter is
half Romanian, my ex-wife isRomanian.
Yeah, I actually lived inBucharest for about a year and a
half.
I built an office over therewhen I started my company about
a decade ago.
Romania definitely has a specialplace in my heart.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Yeah, that's amazing.
That was surprising to hear andvery pleasant.
So it's always so lovely to havesomething in common.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Yeah.
So what part of Romania are youfrom?
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah, good question.
I'm from Bucharest from thecapital.
SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
Um, yeah, born and raised, like I said.
But and you were saying you werequite familiar with the city as
well, right?
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Yeah, I had uh uh office right off Calavictoria.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
Nice location.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Yeah, I was I love that's probably my favorite part
of the city.
So it was definitelyintentional.
We were right next to abeautiful park, and I forget
what it was called.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
That would be Chish Midio if you were so.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
Okay, so I haven't been there uh in about four or
five years, unfortunately.
But so it was the office wasright.
I don't know if you know likethose office buildings that they
have the big arches and then thecourtyard in the middle, and
then you go up into the officespace.
They're like lining up the Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Oh, that's really cool.
That's that's fantastic.
I mean, it rarely gets betterthan that, as far as I'm
concerned.
Really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Yeah, it was a really nice office space.
I really enjoyed it there, andit was like a 15-minute walk
from Old Town, which was nice.
We then we got an office rightoff Uniri Boulevard that was and
it was like very close to theold city, which was nice.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
That makes total sense.
Yeah, that's a really nice area,and I think it's getting, I'm
not sure if you've been thererecently, but it's getting nicer
and nicer by the day.
I think you can really feel thedevelopment and everything.
Yeah, I I was saying the lasttime I went, which I think was
about a year ago, that the citycenter definitely looks like
it's got a very um very nicefacelift, really.
(03:35):
It looks gorgeous at the moment.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
Uh I really need to go back.
We still have a couple ofemployees in Romania and
Bucharest, so I need to go backand visit.
My daughter goes back once ayear every summer.
Her mom takes her, and she'llgo, but she goes back for about
a month.
So they're her family'sinitially from Ployesh.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
All right, not too far from where I'm from.
SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
Yeah, yeah, about 45 minutes outside of the city.
So so then, so you went to tohigh school in Bucharest as
well, or or uh very much allthose formative years, yeah,
you're correct.
SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
So, of course, um everything from primary school
to then gymnasium and afterwardshigh school.
After that, I actually workedquite a bit to improve my
English, of course, becausebefore you make the move to an
English-speaking country, surelyyou want to make sure that
you're going to be able to speakit pretty well.
So I did actually, I did go tothe University of Bucharest to
(04:28):
do uh a course where I wouldimprove my English.
And when I felt ready after acouple of years, yeah, as I
said, when I was about 21,that's when I actually made the
move and moved to the UK to do aproper degree, to go to
university and do a properbachelor's degree.
unknown (04:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
That's great.
That's great.
And I would love to just talk toyou a little bit about your
upbringing in Romania, andyou've kind of experienced two
different cultures to someextent, right?
Um coming uh being born andraised in Romania during a huge
transitional period in thecountry as well, to now in the
UK London culture.
(05:07):
So I'm curious, like it's aunique background and
experience, and I would love tolearn more about how you think
where you come from has shapedyour perspectives and values as
it pertains to working withpeople today.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Oh, great question.
I love that question.
Yeah, you're right.
Of course, uh, I have very muchexperienced these two cultures.
I will say, James, they'rereally different.
That's for sure.
I think we can agree on that,which is quite nice because, of
course, it was very refreshingto kind of absorb British
culture when I moved here to theUK.
But of course, Romanian cultureand everything that comes with
(05:42):
it is very close to my heart, asyou'd imagine.
I think it was an interestingtransition also because when I
did move here, that would havebeen in 2010.
I think the country itself,Romania, was going through a
major transition, right?
I mean, it took quite a lot oftime for it to kind of integrate
itself into a more, I suppose,Western way of living and
(06:06):
carrying, even carryingbusiness, right?
And then, yeah, I guess when Imoved here, I found it first of
all refreshing.
I absolutely delved into lettingthe UK very much for me as an
individual and as aprofessional, because I always
had the intention to settlehere.
So I came here really with anopen heart and an open mind,
(06:29):
letting the UK influence me, butstill very much keeping
everything that has to do withRomanian culture.
I think it's quite known that ifyou come, I suppose, from that
eastern part of the world, youmight have a knack for
negotiating well, you might havea knack for connecting well with
people, you might bring just adifferent perspective, I guess,
(06:50):
to working life as well, much toas you would to your personal
life.
But at the same time, I findthat it blended really well, at
least it did for me, withBritish culture.
Because of course, here youlearn.
My experience has been that herein the UK and you can really
polish up on your diplomacyskills, on your diplomatic
skills, you can perhaps add morestructure to your speech and all
(07:15):
sorts of manner of wonderfulthings.
I think really these twocultures have made me, but yeah,
I obviously can only speak formyself.
You know, you might have a chatwith someone that has a similar
background to mine, and youmight find that they view things
quite differently.
So I certainly speak for myself.
unknown (07:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
So when you were growing up, what were you into?
What kind of kid were you in?
Were you like sports or moreinto reading, or what were you
like?
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
Yeah, I mean, interesting question, I guess.
Um, I think again, I speak frommy own experience, but I was
brought up in a family thatfocused massively on academic
achievements.
I was very much molded that wayby my parents and my
grandparents.
So the focus was definitely onachieving academically.
So it was all about moving from,I guess, what was you could say
(08:02):
perhaps a mix of working classand middle class environment and
moving slowly into trying toachieve academically, go to a
very good high school andafterwards obviously polish up
on my language skills and so onin order to eventually try to
make this move to just moveabroad and settle.
But yeah, you you were asking meabout sports.
I wouldn't say that I was asporty child, unfortunately.
(08:25):
I think the focus was massivelyon achieving academically.
And let me put that in contextbecause that could mean
different things to differentpeople.
We're talking here um a regimewhere I think the focus, at
least for the first 14, 15 yearsof my life, would have been
massively on just school andhomework.
(08:46):
And you probably know thatRomanians are quite hardcore
when it comes down to that.
You're talking about really justgoing to school, coming home,
and then doing another seven toeight hours of homework.
So that was really myexperience, but yeah, I think it
shaped me in the right way.
So I'm very grateful for it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:03):
So when you went to you initially moved to London,
is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Moved to London and stayed here.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Okay, got it.
And so, what did you study atuniversity?
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
Um, so over here I came and did a media and
cultural studies degree, which Iloved.
I would highly recommend this tomost international students that
maybe don't have yet anythingworked out in terms of very
specific or narrow passions, ormaybe haven't yet made up
exactly their mind in terms ofwhat they'd like to study, or
(09:36):
what they'd like to then go onand do in their career.
I think it's amazing to do amedia and cultural studies
degree because it really kind ofslowly and gently educates you
to understand the environmentyou've actually moved in.
So you learn about what kind ofpapers you might want to read in
order to form a balancedopinion.
(09:57):
You learn about, I suppose,really, what culture means in
that specific country.
And yeah, I found it hugelybeneficial to do that sort of
degree.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
I I think cultural studies are really interesting.
Cultural studies, contemporarystudy of religion, I find also
fascinating.
Okay.
What were some of the classesyou took in cultural studies
that are more impactful classes?
SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
Yeah, I would definitely speak before anything
else about a specific coursewhere they focused a lot on um,
I suppose, educating us to thinka little bit outside of the box,
not to fall into what would bethe dominant ideology in a
specific environment.
Really think very clearly do Irecognize a dominant ideology
(10:42):
and can I think a little bitaround it?
Can I form my own opinion?
Can I not just buy immediatelyinto anything that's served to
me?
So I loved that course.
And I guess another one that Ireally loved from oh my god,
that's so many years ago now,right?
We're talking 13 years ago, butI really loved another course
that focused on understandingcity life really well.
(11:06):
So, really kind ofdeconstructing city life.
What does it mean?
What does it come with?
What is there to enjoy about thecity?
How do you understand cities,appreciate them?
And how do you really become amember of that city?
You leave it, you breathe it,you appreciate it, and you use
it to your advantage.
So I that's I suppose that's thesecond course that comes to
(11:26):
mind.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
That sounds really cool.
I actually have that secondcourse.
I never really thought aboutthat topic before.
That's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
So nice.
Yeah, it was lovely.
It was lovely.
I think it's good for youngpeople, right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Yeah, oh, definitely.
So cultural studies, I'd love todive in a little more to that
because I also think there'sprobably some really interesting
parallels that we can speak toas it pertains to building
culture and teams.
And probably that waspotentially a core formative
experience for you, right?
Totally.
So, how exactly would you evenmaybe this is too philosophical
(12:01):
in nature, but like how wouldyou specifically define culture
or like what makes up culture?
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Wow, amazing question.
What makes up culture?
I guess it's you probablyappreciate or understand
culture, um, or I would throughdifferences.
So let's start there, right?
I think if we think about howyou might experience culture if
you quite simply go on holiday,I guess it's really easy and
(12:27):
accessible to refer to itthrough differences.
You know, what might you finddifferent if you experience a
different culture than the oneyou're used to?
So let's imagine, James, thatyou and I are now going on
holiday to, I don't know, Spain.
Let's go.
So you're based in the US, I'mbased in the UK.
Uh, we probably are used to aspecific type of working life,
(12:49):
to a specific schedule.
We have a certain understandingof work-life balance and so on.
But then if you think about whenyou go to Spain, you might quite
literally just observe aroundyou.
Maybe you see a bunch of peopleeating a little bit later into
the evening, even though theymight have children around them,
around the tables.
Maybe they stay a bit laterrather than going home and
(13:11):
putting the kids to bed, say, Idon't know, 7 or 8 p.m.
Maybe they stay a little bitlater.
Maybe, you know, the way theyintegrate family life into their
own daily experience is justdifferent, right?
Than maybe it would be in the UKor in the US.
So even something as small asthis, but that's why I went
straight for experiencingculture through differences,
(13:32):
because maybe that is really theeasiest way to explain it.
I guess it's just the makeup ofwhat life feels like in a
specific place.
What are the norms, what are thehabits, what are the
expectations, what's consideredrude or polite.
All of that is just so verydifferent from one place to the
other.
So that's, I suppose, my veryclumsy way of going around and
(13:55):
explaining culture, but also, Iguess, an accessible way for
most of us.
SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
So I find this topic fascinating, and I think maybe
that's one reason that we'veboth found ourselves in a people
business because it's all aboutpeople.
I think some really interestingaspects of culture that I've
dialed in on that I find reallyinteresting is of course, like
religion plays a big role, Ithink, in cultural norms.
Absolutely.
(14:20):
So I think that's reallyinteresting.
And I've done some reading onjust like the differences and
similarities of differentreligions and how they've
evolved over the years and howthat impacts culture.
Another one that I find reallyinteresting is language and the
connection that language has toour culture and to our way of
thinking and way of being, ourword choice or the way of
(14:43):
communicating the syntax to thedifferent vocabularies of each
culture and how we describethings actually impacts our
perspective.
Absolutely.
Which I think is a pretty coolrabbit hole to go down in terms
of studying as well.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Of course, I think you'll find that with most
language courses, they actuallydo introduce an element of
culture because they do believethat it will help you learn that
language with more ease.
So that's been my experiencewhen I was, of course, focused
on learning English as well.
And if you were, yeah, you'reabsolutely correct.
If you were to go to the BritishInstitute in Bucharest, for
(15:18):
instance, in Romania where I'mfrom, they would try to feed you
little bits of, oh, you know, inthe UK they have cucumber
sandwiches or whatever that maybe, right?
Just to help you a little bitintegrate that into language.
So I think language andreligion, you're absolutely
correct.
They are massive pillars of it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yeah.
And then on the religion side,you have some cultures where
it's the primary religions arelike conversionist, or um, where
their their goal is to I supposeconvert folks, right?
Like you have Christianity, uh,Islam, and then you have more
insular religions where theydon't really have the desire to
convert anybody to theirreligion.
It's a little bit more insular,internally focused.
(15:56):
And I think there's someinteresting parallels when you
look at culture and thoughtprocesses and how that
translates into family life andbusiness based on things like
that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Absolutely.
I conclude.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah, it's a fascinating degree.
What you studied is somethingthat I could definitely see
myself getting into, or inhindsight, being like, oh man,
that would have been a reallycool degree to get.
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
Yeah, yeah, no, it was very cool and very
beneficial to get you startedinto a new place that you
probably are still trying towork out.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Yeah, cool.
So, how did you end up gettinginto your line of work?
I mean, your first recruitingjob, was this a intentional
based on your interest anddesire and people topics, or did
you stumble in it like a lot offolks?
SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I hear that a lot.
I hear that from so many peersthat they've stumbled into it.
I wouldn't say it was quite likethat for me.
I actually did a little bit ofresearch in the last couple of
months of my university degree.
I focused a little bit onbringing some analytical thought
to what I might be interestedin, what I might be good at, and
(17:02):
and I did add, I'll admit, aslice of honesty to that in
terms of what I'd like to mylife to actually look like.
So, you know, what does a goodlifestyle mean to me, and so on.
So when I thought about thatcombined with the socioeconomic
level and so on, I kind ofnarrowed it and narrowed it.
(17:23):
And in a matter of a few months,I thought that I might actually
try to go for just grad schemesin recruitment.
And that's exactly what I did.
So I connected with a couple ofrecruiters at the time that were
focused on placing graduateslike myself into those
recruitment schemes, and Ididn't find it particularly
(17:43):
difficult.
It took me two weeks to secure arole from the moment I
graduated.
I went for a bunch of interviewsand then I received a bunch of
offers and then I made mychoice.
And I started very much on agrad scheme.
I was lucky to start on a verythorough grad scheme.
So for a year I worked for arecruitment agency called
(18:04):
Chapman Black, where theyinvested heavily in teaching you
a lot how to become a toprecruiter at the time.
I benefited from a really robustand thorough grad scheme where
they spent, I would say everycouple of days, they would spend
three to four hours teaching youhow to negotiate, how to explore
(18:24):
the market, how to understand anew role in recruitment, how to
focus to maximize at the timewhat we would call billings and
so on.
So yeah, it was amazing.
And I stayed there for about ayear.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Yeah, I saw so you I was looking at your LinkedIn
profile.
So you started out on the agencyside and then transitioned into
in-house.
Was Google your first in-house?
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
Correct.
It was my first rodeo intoin-house recruitment.
I think for me, it was reallyimportant to make sure that I
make that transition from agencyrecruitment to in-house
recruitment at a time when Ifelt ready.
And I also felt certain that itwas the right move to make.
And once I was certain that itwas the right move to make and
(19:08):
the right time, I wanted, as youmight imagine, like most of us,
I wanted the very best formyself.
And you know, the question I getquite often is how I actually
got into recruiting for Google.
And what I basically did was tochoose a couple of top tech
businesses, and I just went on awhole mission to message as many
(19:34):
people from places at the timelike uh Facebook, because there
was no meta back then, so it wasFacebook, places like Google,
places like Apple.
And I remember I was reallyfocused on big names and really
just messaging people to try tosee if anyone would give me a
chance to interview.
Um, so that's how it happened.
(19:55):
Yeah, as you can see on my CV,that went well.
I did spend about a year and ahalf recruiting for Google as
the first in-house experience.
And as you can imagine, James,that taught me a lot.
I learned an awful lot whilerecruiting for them,
understanding how to assessprofiles at that very high
(20:15):
level.
So, yeah, it was hugelybeneficial.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
So, when you were starting out in recruiting, what
was different than youanticipated, or what was an
assumption that you maybe hadmade in the early days of
recruiting that after a fewyears in you realized wasn't the
case or things, it was a littledifferent than you thought it
would be?
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
I love this question.
I think initially I would havethought probably when I was just
a little bud starting out, Iwould have thought that it's all
about looking at CVs anddeciding who's right, who's
wrong, and then uh, you know,working.
With people and just offeringtons of support.
So perhaps I had that kind ofrose-tinted view of what it
(20:54):
might be.
But of course, what surprisedme, as I find that is the case
with a variety of peers, whatsurprised me was the fact that
it was all about establishing aspecific rhythm of work in order
to become successful.
It was all about a ton of volumein terms of, you know, how many
people you talk to, whetherthey're initially clients or
(21:16):
candidates, right, in the agencyworld.
And afterwards, really just kindof staying focused on how
important the numbers game is inrecruitment.
To me, it still is very much anumbers game.
I feel that you get very muchwhat you put in.
So I think that was thesurprise.
It was just how focused onnumbers, how focused on staying
consistent it would be in orderto become successful.
(21:39):
And really the sales element init as well, right?
There is a very strong saleselement in recruitment from my
point of view.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
Absolutely.
And I think that's an importantaspect, or one of the benefits
of coming up in talentacquisition prior to moving into
a CPO role, right, is reallyunderstanding the funnel aspects
to the job, the parallelsbetween sales, right, and
recruiting over there.
Essentially, I suppose one waywe could look at building
(22:07):
organizations is capturing twoideal demand funnels, right?
We have our ideal client profileand we have our ideal candidate
profile.
So we have ICPs on both sides ofthe house, right?
And then it's about convertingqualified pipelines, right?
Absolutely.
Identifying qualified pipeline,having high standards for the
SQLs, if you will, salesqualified leads, and making sure
(22:29):
only the absolute best fit folksare making it through.
And I do feel like that's a bigadvantage going into a CPO role.
SPEAKER_01 (22:37):
Absolutely.
It's a massive advantage.
And I think what I will probablyalways carry with me is really
that hiring wealth is, in myview, the very core of making a
business successful.
So yeah, of course, if you comefrom recruitment or talent
acquisition, that always tendsto stay with you.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Yeah.
And so now you're in a talentacquisition and people
leadership role, right?
You're overseeing TA and peopleops.
I'm curious to learn more abouta transformative moment, a
breakthrough experience.
It could have been with amentor, a member of your
leadership team, maybe a founderyou worked for.
We're talking about now you'rein your prime, right?
(23:16):
Like you've achieved a highlevel of success in the tech
industry.
I would love to learn more,yeah, about any kind of
breakthrough moments you've hadover the past few years that has
really shaped the executive thatyou've become at this point.
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
Um absolutely.
There would be quite a few.
You mentioned also dealing withfounders and everything.
So I think I would like toperhaps start with that.
So I guess a breakthrough momentfor me was first of all
understanding that as a seniortalent or people professional,
when you make your choice ofwhat business you'd like to work
(23:51):
for, it's very important to makesure that you can establish the
right synergy with the founderof that business.
So I guess a pivotal moment or abreakthrough moment was for me
meeting our current CEO at SAPI.
I find that the relationshipbetween the people leader and
the CEO is instrumental to thebusiness.
So a break from moment wasmeeting with her, realizing that
(24:14):
is the right kind of founder forme.
And of course, I found out laterthat she felt the same way.
She thought this is the rightpeople leader for the business
that she wants to obviously turninto a success.
So I think that was a break frommoment in the sense that really,
unless that relationship betweenthe people leader and the CEO is
(24:35):
fantastic, unless they worktogether, unless they move into
the same direction and they alsodeploy absolute trust in each
other, I think that will show upin perhaps less revenue than you
might want, in perhaps a bunchmore problems for the business
that you might want to have, andso on.
(24:57):
So a whole host of problemsmight be derived from not having
those elements in thatrelationship that I've
described.
So yeah, this was a pivotalmoment for me.
And I'll be honest, I did haveactually when I made that move
into actually becoming a peopleleader in a startup, I did meet
with quite a lot of CEOs.
(25:18):
And I'll admit that there were acouple of interviews where I
thought, oh, well, thisrelationship definitely that
this is not going to work out.
And it's fine, it's fine to justadmit that it's not going to
work out and find the right CEOfor yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
So, how do you do that, right?
Um, I think I feel likeparticularly when you get to an
executive level, being able tochoose or figure out which
company is gonna be ideal foryou and for them is really
important.
You're operating on a team,you're operating on the
executive team, and certainlythere is a lot under our
control.
There's also things that aren't,where I mean that's what a team
(25:53):
is, right?
Like you have to be able to findfolks that you're gonna work
well with.
What do you look for in thosetypes of relationships?
Like, how do you suss out theleaders and the culture that are
a good fit?
SPEAKER_01 (26:05):
Well, I suppose there are a bunch of ways to do
that.
My mind goes straight away tothe fact that you might want to
ensure you are compatible withthat person, but also that you
complement each other well.
So we all have strengths andweaknesses, right?
And I think it's very importantto match your strengths to their
(26:27):
weaknesses and vice versa.
I think that's a start point.
So, you know, if for instance,let's say as a people leader,
bring a lot of recruitmentexperience, or you know what
building the right kind of HRfoundation, you know what that
really needs to look like, thenyou could very well pair
yourself with an ambitious,young, and motivated CEO that
(26:48):
maybe has not been three timesalready a founder.
Then that's a good match, maybe,right?
Or flip it, just take it, justliterally look at it from the
complete opposite point of view.
So you might want maybe ifsomeone has been a three times
founder, then they couldprobably be paired with a
slightly more junior peopleleader, maybe not someone very
(27:10):
seasoned, and maybe someone thatis also figuring things out and
could learn something from thatCEO.
I think it's complementing eachother well.
I think that's very important.
And I think the second thingthat my mind goes to as an
important element in figuringout whether you can develop the
right kind of relationship witha CEO as a people leader, is can
(27:32):
you establish genuine trust withthat person?
Can you really build the kind ofbond, the kind of trust that is
rather unbreakable?
Because if you don't feel thatperson can fully trust you and
you can fully trust them, thenthat's again that fissure in the
(27:53):
relationship will show up timeand time again.
So I would start there,complementing each other really
well and being able to trusteach other very well and being
at the right point in yourcareer for them, and vice versa.
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
Well, I want to dive more into culture and startup
culture.
I think some similarities acrossthe board for every startup.
When you look at buildingculture, particularly with your
background in cultural studiesand being multicultural
yourself, how do you define aculture and how do you build a
culture that's going to beeffective, performing at the
(28:26):
most competitive level possible,which is essentially high growth
to hypergrowth tech?
How do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
I love that question.
Again, I think it's importantfrom my point of view to not go
in wanting to immediately shakethings up for the sake of
shaking them up.
I think it's important to go inas a people leader into a
business, to just go in with areally curious mind.
It's important for the firstthree, four months to do a lot
of listening rather than beingprone to action for the sake of
(28:56):
action.
Really understanding what's thebase level of the existing
culture.
Because even if startup is veryyoung, they don't yet have maybe
many people, or no one's reallyset up those culture
foundations, if you like, it'svery likely they already have a
culture, right?
They already have a set ofbehaviors, they already have a
(29:18):
set of values, really.
So it's important to figurethose out first.
And then I guess after youunderstood what they have as
culture already, I think it'simportant to figure out what's
not working very well.
What could you actually improve?
What's everyone's view?
What could be improved?
Why it should be improved?
(29:39):
I think it's also important toconnect with the finance leader.
I think that's pivotal.
What are the pain points of thefinance leader?
Because really, the whole point,like you said, of building
amazing culture is to ensure thesuccess of that business, right?
That's really the whole point ofworking really hard to build an
(29:59):
amazing culture is to help thebusiness become successful
through that culture.
So I think it's very telling totalk to the finance leader and
understand what's actually notworking.
What do they think is holding usback in terms of generating more
revenue, right?
Or if we generate a ton ofrevenue and they're already
extremely happy as a financeleader, maybe what's holding us
(30:22):
back from that next step toreach profitability.
So it's really kind of doing athorough listening tour to
understand the business ascompletely as possible, and then
stepping into action mode, intofixing mode.
Work out what needs to be fixedand why first.
And then I suppose with a lot ofpatience, you can slowly gain
(30:46):
people's trust and build theculture that will be conducive
to success for the business.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
So, what would you say for leaders that maybe are
struggling with culture orthere's gaps between where they
are and where they want to be?
Where do you start?
What you're saying aboutconnecting with finance and just
purely from like a PL growthperspective, looking at what
(31:13):
they think the gaps are, ofcourse, and probably different
leaders across the organizationtoo, right?
But what's next?
I would think that there's liketwo aspects to it, right?
You have your existing team thatyou're trying to shift the
culture with, and then you havethe ability to hire different
potentially behavioral fits orculture fits or ads or however
(31:33):
you want to put it to theorganization as well.
I think probably even the harderof the two is to take an
existing team.
Maybe you don't agree, I don'tknow, but take that existing
team and improve the culture.
Do you have any advice on likehow do you do that when you need
to go through a large culturalshift?
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
It really depends on the size of the business.
It depends on how many peoplethey have, right?
If the business is already,let's just say if they've
already got 500 people, then ofcourse you need to accept what's
there already and try to seewhat you can slowly change in
time in the right way.
But if it's a very smallbusiness and you find that
(32:15):
you've also you've almost got aclean slate, then that's I
suppose a lot easier to justbuild from scratch on, right?
So it depends on the businessfirst.
I mean, the type of work of apeople leader is vastly
different from a small businessthat's a bit scrappy, let's say,
to a large corporate.
(32:36):
In my view, if we're talking abusiness that has up to 100
people in comparison to abusiness that has maybe more
than a thousand people, thoseare at times very different
jobs, even though you might havethe same title.
So let's start by admitting tothat and being very transparent
in that regard.
But I guess in terms of actuallyaffecting the right change, it
(32:59):
really is, I think for me,before anything else, it comes
down to listening, understandingwhat's there first, doing that
first thorough listening tour toreally understand what you're
working with.
What are the pain points?
How do they relate to theperceived financial success of
that business?
So it's really kind of trying tosee what needs to be fixed,
(33:21):
really.
But again, that comes down tothe kind of relationship you'll
be able to have with the CEO.
Because if you have a C, let'ssay you're an exceptional people
leader, let's say you step intoa business where maybe they
don't have huge problems interms of culture.
But if that relationship betweenthe people leader and the CEO is
not amazing and based on trustand collaboration, I do not
(33:46):
believe that success can comeout of that.
I I just don't see it.
So it really is about buildingtrust and being a good listener
initially, and then being veryanalytical, very structured, and
getting on with the work thatneeds to be done.
That's how I would see it.
Does that does that framing makesense?
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
It makes a lot of sense.
And I'm wondering too, it's likewhen you're talking about the
importance of really listeningand slowing down.
Would you say that yourbackground that studying doing
cultural studies really at thecore, also looking at
distinguishing differences,right?
I would think probably impactshow you think about process as
well, right?
SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
Very much so.
You're absolutely correct.
It does impact how I think aboutthings.
And I am very much of the schoolof thought that good culture
equals future success for thebusiness.
And what I mean by good culture,I guess if I had to strip it
down to a very basic summary,what we've done at SAPI, I
(34:49):
guess, is a good example for it.
We've focused on hiring reallysmart people of very high
caliber in terms of cognitiveabilities, but we also ensured
they would be extremely kind andcollaborative.
And if you have these twoguiding principles as your North
Star, that's a good place tostart.
(35:09):
You want people to be verysmart, ambitious, but you also
want them to understand thatthey need to get along with
everyone, right?
They need to be kind,collaborative.
Then I guess that is a goodfoundation on which in time you
can become more sophisticated,you can have new wish lists to
add to that kind of cultureevery year.
(35:30):
But I think that's a goodfoundation.
That's how I see it.
And as I said, we did that atSAPI and it's worked out pretty
well.
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
All right, that's great.
How long have you been in theCPO role?
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
The CPO one, I think it's about seven to eight
months.
SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
Yeah, yeah, okay, cool.
Okay, so you made it to C level.
Now you're overseeing people opsand talent acquisition for a
tech company.
When you look at your ownjourney and career path and
trajectory, right?
What's next?
Like what's most important toyou at this point in your life
and career?
SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
At this point in time, much like our CEO, the
main point for me is to get usto profitability.
And I assure you, James, I'm asfocused on that as she is.
We have a common goal.
We need to get to profitability.
I think we're doing well, andtherefore we just need to now
figure out again what needs abit of tweaking, what needs a
(36:27):
bit of fixing on the peopleside, on the culture side, in
order to make sure that everyoneelse in the business can work
like a well-oiled machine inorder to get us to
profitability, right?
That kind of feeds intoeverything that I have on my
mind right now.
And as you might know withstartups, right, when you join a
(36:47):
startup, so I joined them abouttwo years and a half ago.
When you join a startup, youkind of need to want that
business to become successful,right?
Their success is your success asa people leader, especially if
you've built that peoplefunction from scratch, like I
did here.
So that's really at the momentwhat I would like to see happen.
(37:08):
I would like us to becomeprofitable.
And I guess once that wouldhappen, how do we get better?
How do we generate even moreprofit?
How do we move forward, really?
I think that is the next, yeah,that is really the next goal in
my mind.
And of course, if I'm thinkingmore long term, I would
(37:28):
absolutely love to grow into aboard advisor.
If we're thinking five to 10years' time, I'd love to grow
into a board advisor.
I'd love to get involved in asmany startups as possible, even
as a non-exec director,eventually, if we're talking 10
to 15 years' time from now.
So I do have a bunch of goals,but I think the most important
(37:51):
thing is to get SAPI to reachthe ultimate point of success.
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
So, how do you think about your own personal
development in order toaccomplish these ambitious
goals?
You're now in charge ofpartnering with the CEO to take
the company to profitability, tocontinue to grow aggressively,
to build this amazing culture.
What are you working on as anindividual, or how do you think
about your own growth to be ableto get the most out of your
career and get your most out oflife at this point in time?
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
There's a bunch of things that I have in mind, but
I do very much think it'simportant to stay on top of
everything that changes and thechanges rapid in the tech
sector, right?
I'm speaking here abouteverything from tools to not
being left behind in terms ofusing AI in the right manner and
(38:42):
at the right level.
Also, I guess a lot of thoughtin terms of my own development
goes into being a good guide toour leadership team as a whole.
So helping them develop.
A huge part of my role, like youwould find with most people at
my level, is to help theleadership team to be fantastic
(39:05):
when it comes down to managingothers and when it comes down to
being strategic, right?
And doing the right thing forthe business.
So it's coaching the leaders inour business.
It's something I'm focused quitea bit on.
Also, of course, coaching thepeople in my own team, getting
them to be successful.
Their success is my success.
I guess it's also just keeprefining everything about me
(39:28):
that can be refined.
It's really good to come to thissort of thought process and this
sort of conversation with a lotof humility, in the sense that
none of us have finishedarticles.
So I think it's really importantto figure out from time to time,
maybe quarterly, to ask, okay,what course could I possibly
take?
What could I improve at?
(39:48):
You know, is it that I shouldlearn a little bit more about
how I don't know, AI could takeus to the next level?
Is it that I could learn alittle bit more about
communication, right?
I mean, it could really beanything.
It could be any course.
Is it that I could get better atpublic speaking so that I, you
know, I evangelize the name ofthe business further?
(40:11):
It could be anything, but Ithink it's important to bring
humility to this process and todo an assessment of where I am
every quarter.
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
I'd be curious to learn how your definition of
success has potentially changednow that you're at the C level,
executive level versus back inthe days when you were at Google
or on the agency side.
For you, just as an individual,I mean, has your perspective on
success changed?
SPEAKER_01 (40:38):
Oh, absolutely, it has.
Absolutely.
I think most of us could beforgiven when we're younger of
just assuming that success.
Success equals status or successjust equals a certain reaching a
certain financial level.
But of course, these days, I'mthinking quite a lot about being
(40:58):
able to stay on top of my work,but at the same time staying
healthy.
I'm also thinking a lot aboutwork-life balance, because
whilst your experience and yourknowledge increase in time, I do
find that perhaps your staminais not as it was when you were
25 years old.
(41:18):
My stamina is not as it was whenI was 25, that's for sure.
So I guess you start thinkingabout how you can be productive,
how you can actually worksmarter rather than harder.
You can think about how you canbe a bit more strategic, how you
can stay healthy.
So I guess success means being,for me, success means being
happy, being pleased with whereI am in terms of my career, but
(41:42):
also being happy with how muchcare I take of myself mentally,
physically.
Do I still have time to learn?
That's also an indicator ofsuccess, because if I find that
I don't have the time to learn,that means in a year or two
years' time I would havestagnated.
So it's such a complex ecosystemas we age in terms of defining
(42:02):
success.
And when we're younger, perhapswe have a more simplistic view
of what success might mean.
SPEAKER_00 (42:09):
I definitely agree with that.
It's finding balance, right?
And it's not even just balance.
Like I think what you brought upthat's really I find really
interesting is that you're notjust thinking about balance in
terms of like work-life balancetraditionally between your
personal life and your career,but it's also like balance in
terms of how you're investingtime in your career versus
(42:29):
execution and beingforward-thinking and learning.
There has to be a balancing actthere.
And maybe it makes sense for usto be intentional about finding
that balance.
So it's like we're continuouslyfueling and investing in our own
future, right?
Absolutely.
I already have a pretty goodsense for this.
Um, you know, you bring uphumility, you bring up
(42:52):
listening, culture.
What type of leader do you wantto continue to become?
SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
I think I would love to be guided by a mix of
ambition and kindness.
So I think I don't believe inachieving success by being
ruthless.
I believe that success can beachieved by staying on track,
having a North Star at alltimes.
(43:17):
So, yes, being ambitious.
But I do think it's veryimportant to be kind and to
deploy all of these effortstowards success and growth with
a lot of empathy for others.
That's really what I'd like tomix ambition and kindness.
SPEAKER_00 (43:35):
I love that.
So I'd love to cover a couplemore questions with you.
I wanted to just get a sense foreverybody tuning in, right?
Like I think everybody that'spart of the show, whether as a
guest or audience and myself,we're always looking for ways to
improve.
We're looking for areas ofdevelopment.
Um is there any book that youfeel like's had the biggest
(43:57):
impact on your life or career?
SPEAKER_01 (43:59):
Oh goodness, yes.
I love I'm an avid reader, so Iabsolutely love reading books.
I think you've opened Pandora'sbox just now.
So I could see it could reallygo on with a massive list.
But I think in terms of booksthat immediately come to my
mind, why don't we do this?
I'll focus on one that I thinkwas important in my formative
(44:19):
years, and then I guess I'llfocus on a recent one that's
kind of perhaps shaped the way Ithink about things.
So I think one that really wasincredibly impactful when I was
roughly I must have been 17years old, 18 years old.
It was recommended by one of myteachers in one of my professors
(44:43):
in high school.
It's Daniel Goldman's book onemotional intelligence.
I find that for a young person,or for the young person I was at
the time, it provided me withreassurance that there isn't
just one type of intelligence.
Um, you know, it's it's veryeasy, I suppose, given my
background, to believe that theonly type of intelligence is the
(45:07):
one that has to do with STEM,right?
So sciences in general, orpattern recognition.
So the logical part of what itmeans to be intelligent.
But I think for me it meant alot to have that book
recommended by one of myprofessors and to say, hey,
actually, there's this otherside of things that if explored
(45:28):
in the right way, so if youexplore your emotional
intelligence and you make use ofit in the right way, it could
really deliver tremendoussuccess in the long term as an
individual for yourself.
So that really was a pivotalmoment for me, understanding
that there's more to it thanbeing good at maths, basically.
And a book that has made animpression on me more recently,
(45:51):
I think it was a year ago or so,if I'm not mistaken.
I read a book called Trust.
I think it won an award.
I would have to look it up.
Um, yeah, it's called Trust.
I think his name is Hernan Diaz,if I'm not mistaken.
I'll get the name for you in aminute.
Yes, Hernan Diaz.
I got it.
I got it right the first timearound.
(46:12):
So yeah, I think that reallymade an impression on me in the
sense that the message I wouldtake from it is not everything
is as it might appear.
And I guess most people thatread that book would have a very
different view of what'shappening there by the time they
finish the book.
So I think it's important to nottake anything at face value, to
(46:34):
look a little bit deeper intosituations, into people, and to
kind of take your time to makeup your own mind.
SPEAKER_00 (46:42):
Well, that ties back to what you studied in school.
SPEAKER_01 (46:45):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (46:46):
It's like a common theme, right?
Like throughout this episode.
Throughout your life.
SPEAKER_01 (46:49):
Absolutely.
I think that just shows, James,our formative ears are massive.
SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
Yeah, oh yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Well, I haven't heard of thatsecond book.
For everybody tuning in, we'lldrop the links to the books in
the description of the episode.
But Anna, I really wanted tojust take a moment to say thank
you for joining me on the showtoday.
This has been a lot of fun,really interesting too.
I really enjoyed the angle ofjumping into cultural studies
(47:15):
and really understandingdifferences and slowing down the
listen in terms of how thatimpacts building relationships
and culture and thinking aboutour own development as well as
that of others.
So this was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
Thank you very much, James.
I really appreciate the invite.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
I think you had some fantasticquestions that I've genuinely
enjoyed exploring with you.
And yeah, it's been likewise alot of fun.
And thank you so much for havingme.
SPEAKER_00 (47:41):
Yeah, of course.
Let's do this again sometime.
SPEAKER_01 (47:44):
Absolutely.
Anna King, welcome to the show.
For everybody tuning in, Anna isthe CPO at SAPI.
So, anyways, Anna, thank you forjoining me today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
No, thank you, James.
I'm delighted to be here.
Really looking forward to ourconversation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it as well.
Let's start just uh, we'd loveto learn more about you.
Where are you initially from?
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
Sure.
So I'm originally from a countrycalled Romania in Eastern
Europe.
I was very much born and raisedthere.
And afterwards, when I was 21years old, I moved over to the
UK initially to study, and thenof course to start up my career.
That's pretty much me in anutshell.
(01:29):
And obviously, ever since, I'vebeen pretty much working on that
career, which I guess brought ushere to have this chat today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Yeah, really excited about this.
And it sounds like we actuallyhave to some extent some shared
experiences.
I think I had mentioned in theprep call that my daughter is
half Romanian, my ex-wife isRomanian.
Yeah, I actually lived inBucharest for about a year and a
half.
I built an office over therewhen I started my company about
a decade ago.
Romania definitely has a specialplace in my heart.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Yeah, that's amazing.
That was surprising to hear andvery pleasant.
So it's always so lovely to havesomething in common.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Yeah.
So what part of Romania are youfrom?
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah, good question.
I'm from Bucharest from thecapital.
SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
Um, yeah, born and raised, like I said.
But and you were saying you werequite familiar with the city as
well, right?
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Yeah, I had uh uh office right off Calavictoria.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
Nice location.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Yeah, I was I love that's probably my favorite part
of the city.
So it was definitelyintentional.
We were right next to abeautiful park, and I forget
what it was called.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
That would be Chish Midio if you were so.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
Okay, so I haven't been there uh in about four or
five years, unfortunately.
But so it was the office wasright.
I don't know if you know likethose office buildings that they
have the big arches and then thecourtyard in the middle, and
then you go up into the officespace.
They're like lining up the Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Oh, that's really cool.
That's that's fantastic.
I mean, it rarely gets betterthan that, as far as I'm
concerned.
Really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Yeah, it was a really nice office space.
I really enjoyed it there, andit was like a 15-minute walk
from Old Town, which was nice.
We then we got an office rightoff Uniri Boulevard that was and
it was like very close to theold city, which was nice.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
That makes total sense.
Yeah, that's a really nice area,and I think it's getting, I'm
not sure if you've been thererecently, but it's getting nicer
and nicer by the day.
I think you can really feel thedevelopment and everything.
Yeah, I I was saying the lasttime I went, which I think was
about a year ago, that the citycenter definitely looks like
it's got a very um very nicefacelift, really.
(03:35):
It looks gorgeous at the moment.
So, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
Uh I really need to go back.
We still have a couple ofemployees in Romania and
Bucharest, so I need to go backand visit.
My daughter goes back once ayear every summer.
Her mom takes her, and she'llgo, but she goes back for about
a month.
So they're her family'sinitially from Ployesh.
SPEAKER_01 (03:53):
All right, not too far from where I'm from.
SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
Yeah, yeah, about 45 minutes outside of the city.
So so then, so you went to tohigh school in Bucharest as
well, or or uh very much allthose formative years, yeah,
you're correct.
SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
So, of course, um everything from primary school
to then gymnasium and afterwardshigh school.
After that, I actually workedquite a bit to improve my
English, of course, becausebefore you make the move to an
English-speaking country, surelyyou want to make sure that
you're going to be able to speakit pretty well.
So I did actually, I did go tothe University of Bucharest to
(04:28):
do uh a course where I wouldimprove my English.
And when I felt ready after acouple of years, yeah, as I
said, when I was about 21,that's when I actually made the
move and moved to the UK to do aproper degree, to go to
university and do a properbachelor's degree.
unknown (04:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
That's great.
That's great.
And I would love to just talk toyou a little bit about your
upbringing in Romania, andyou've kind of experienced two
different cultures to someextent, right?
Um coming uh being born andraised in Romania during a huge
transitional period in thecountry as well, to now in the
UK London culture.
(05:07):
So I'm curious, like it's aunique background and
experience, and I would love tolearn more about how you think
where you come from has shapedyour perspectives and values as
it pertains to working withpeople today.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Oh, great question.
I love that question.
Yeah, you're right.
Of course, uh, I have very muchexperienced these two cultures.
I will say, James, they'rereally different.
That's for sure.
I think we can agree on that,which is quite nice because, of
course, it was very refreshingto kind of absorb British
culture when I moved here to theUK.
But of course, Romanian cultureand everything that comes with
(05:42):
it is very close to my heart, asyou'd imagine.
I think it was an interestingtransition also because when I
did move here, that would havebeen in 2010.
I think the country itself,Romania, was going through a
major transition, right?
I mean, it took quite a lot oftime for it to kind of integrate
itself into a more, I suppose,Western way of living and
(06:06):
carrying, even carryingbusiness, right?
And then, yeah, I guess when Imoved here, I found it first of
all refreshing.
I absolutely delved into lettingthe UK very much for me as an
individual and as aprofessional, because I always
had the intention to settlehere.
So I came here really with anopen heart and an open mind,
(06:29):
letting the UK influence me, butstill very much keeping
everything that has to do withRomanian culture.
I think it's quite known that ifyou come, I suppose, from that
eastern part of the world, youmight have a knack for
negotiating well, you might havea knack for connecting well with
people, you might bring just adifferent perspective, I guess,
(06:50):
to working life as well, much toas you would to your personal
life.
But at the same time, I findthat it blended really well, at
least it did for me, withBritish culture.
Because of course, here youlearn.
My experience has been that herein the UK and you can really
polish up on your diplomacyskills, on your diplomatic
skills, you can perhaps add morestructure to your speech and all
(07:15):
sorts of manner of wonderfulthings.
I think really these twocultures have made me, but yeah,
I obviously can only speak formyself.
You know, you might have a chatwith someone that has a similar
background to mine, and youmight find that they view things
quite differently.
So I certainly speak for myself.
unknown (07:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
So when you were growing up, what were you into?
What kind of kid were you in?
Were you like sports or moreinto reading, or what were you
like?
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
Yeah, I mean, interesting question, I guess.
Um, I think again, I speak frommy own experience, but I was
brought up in a family thatfocused massively on academic
achievements.
I was very much molded that wayby my parents and my
grandparents.
So the focus was definitely onachieving academically.
So it was all about moving from,I guess, what was you could say
(08:02):
perhaps a mix of working classand middle class environment and
moving slowly into trying toachieve academically, go to a
very good high school andafterwards obviously polish up
on my language skills and so onin order to eventually try to
make this move to just moveabroad and settle.
But yeah, you you were asking meabout sports.
I wouldn't say that I was asporty child, unfortunately.
(08:25):
I think the focus was massivelyon achieving academically.
And let me put that in contextbecause that could mean
different things to differentpeople.
We're talking here um a regimewhere I think the focus, at
least for the first 14, 15 yearsof my life, would have been
massively on just school andhomework.
(08:46):
And you probably know thatRomanians are quite hardcore
when it comes down to that.
You're talking about really justgoing to school, coming home,
and then doing another seven toeight hours of homework.
So that was really myexperience, but yeah, I think it
shaped me in the right way.
So I'm very grateful for it.
SPEAKER_00 (09:03):
So when you went to you initially moved to London,
is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Moved to London and stayed here.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
Okay, got it.
And so, what did you study atuniversity?
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
Um, so over here I came and did a media and
cultural studies degree, which Iloved.
I would highly recommend this tomost international students that
maybe don't have yet anythingworked out in terms of very
specific or narrow passions, ormaybe haven't yet made up
exactly their mind in terms ofwhat they'd like to study, or
(09:36):
what they'd like to then go onand do in their career.
I think it's amazing to do amedia and cultural studies
degree because it really kind ofslowly and gently educates you
to understand the environmentyou've actually moved in.
So you learn about what kind ofpapers you might want to read in
order to form a balancedopinion.
(09:57):
You learn about, I suppose,really, what culture means in
that specific country.
And yeah, I found it hugelybeneficial to do that sort of
degree.
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
I I think cultural studies are really interesting.
Cultural studies, contemporarystudy of religion, I find also
fascinating.
Okay.
What were some of the classesyou took in cultural studies
that are more impactful classes?
SPEAKER_01 (10:20):
Yeah, I would definitely speak before anything
else about a specific coursewhere they focused a lot on um,
I suppose, educating us to thinka little bit outside of the box,
not to fall into what would bethe dominant ideology in a
specific environment.
Really think very clearly do Irecognize a dominant ideology
(10:42):
and can I think a little bitaround it?
Can I form my own opinion?
Can I not just buy immediatelyinto anything that's served to
me?
So I loved that course.
And I guess another one that Ireally loved from oh my god,
that's so many years ago now,right?
We're talking 13 years ago, butI really loved another course
that focused on understandingcity life really well.
(11:06):
So, really kind ofdeconstructing city life.
What does it mean?
What does it come with?
What is there to enjoy about thecity?
How do you understand cities,appreciate them?
And how do you really become amember of that city?
You leave it, you breathe it,you appreciate it, and you use
it to your advantage.
So I that's I suppose that's thesecond course that comes to
(11:26):
mind.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
That sounds really cool.
I actually have that secondcourse.
I never really thought aboutthat topic before.
That's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
So nice.
Yeah, it was lovely.
It was lovely.
I think it's good for youngpeople, right?
SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Yeah, oh, definitely.
So cultural studies, I'd love todive in a little more to that
because I also think there'sprobably some really interesting
parallels that we can speak toas it pertains to building
culture and teams.
And probably that waspotentially a core formative
experience for you, right?
Totally.
So, how exactly would you evenmaybe this is too philosophical
(12:01):
in nature, but like how wouldyou specifically define culture
or like what makes up culture?
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Wow, amazing question.
What makes up culture?
I guess it's you probablyappreciate or understand
culture, um, or I would throughdifferences.
So let's start there, right?
I think if we think about howyou might experience culture if
you quite simply go on holiday,I guess it's really easy and
(12:27):
accessible to refer to itthrough differences.
You know, what might you finddifferent if you experience a
different culture than the oneyou're used to?
So let's imagine, James, thatyou and I are now going on
holiday to, I don't know, Spain.
Let's go.
So you're based in the US, I'mbased in the UK.
Uh, we probably are used to aspecific type of working life,
(12:49):
to a specific schedule.
We have a certain understandingof work-life balance and so on.
But then if you think about whenyou go to Spain, you might quite
literally just observe aroundyou.
Maybe you see a bunch of peopleeating a little bit later into
the evening, even though theymight have children around them,
around the tables.
Maybe they stay a bit laterrather than going home and
(13:11):
putting the kids to bed, say, Idon't know, 7 or 8 p.m.
Maybe they stay a little bitlater.
Maybe, you know, the way theyintegrate family life into their
own daily experience is justdifferent, right?
Than maybe it would be in the UKor in the US.
So even something as small asthis, but that's why I went
straight for experiencingculture through differences,
(13:32):
because maybe that is really theeasiest way to explain it.
I guess it's just the makeup ofwhat life feels like in a
specific place.
What are the norms, what are thehabits, what are the
expectations, what's consideredrude or polite.
All of that is just so verydifferent from one place to the
other.
So that's, I suppose, my veryclumsy way of going around and
(13:55):
explaining culture, but also, Iguess, an accessible way for
most of us.
SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
So I find this topic fascinating, and I think maybe
that's one reason that we'veboth found ourselves in a people
business because it's all aboutpeople.
I think some really interestingaspects of culture that I've
dialed in on that I find reallyinteresting is of course, like
religion plays a big role, Ithink, in cultural norms.
Absolutely.
(14:20):
So I think that's reallyinteresting.
And I've done some reading onjust like the differences and
similarities of differentreligions and how they've
evolved over the years and howthat impacts culture.
Another one that I find reallyinteresting is language and the
connection that language has toour culture and to our way of
thinking and way of being, ourword choice or the way of
(14:43):
communicating the syntax to thedifferent vocabularies of each
culture and how we describethings actually impacts our
perspective.
Absolutely.
Which I think is a pretty coolrabbit hole to go down in terms
of studying as well.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Of course, I think you'll find that with most
language courses, they actuallydo introduce an element of
culture because they do believethat it will help you learn that
language with more ease.
So that's been my experiencewhen I was, of course, focused
on learning English as well.
And if you were, yeah, you'reabsolutely correct.
If you were to go to the BritishInstitute in Bucharest, for
(15:18):
instance, in Romania where I'mfrom, they would try to feed you
little bits of, oh, you know, inthe UK they have cucumber
sandwiches or whatever that maybe, right?
Just to help you a little bitintegrate that into language.
So I think language andreligion, you're absolutely
correct.
They are massive pillars of it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Yeah.
And then on the religion side,you have some cultures where
it's the primary religions arelike conversionist, or um, where
their their goal is to I supposeconvert folks, right?
Like you have Christianity, uh,Islam, and then you have more
insular religions where theydon't really have the desire to
convert anybody to theirreligion.
It's a little bit more insular,internally focused.
(15:56):
And I think there's someinteresting parallels when you
look at culture and thoughtprocesses and how that
translates into family life andbusiness based on things like
that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Absolutely.
I conclude.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Yeah, it's a fascinating degree.
What you studied is somethingthat I could definitely see
myself getting into, or inhindsight, being like, oh man,
that would have been a reallycool degree to get.
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
Yeah, yeah, no, it was very cool and very
beneficial to get you startedinto a new place that you
probably are still trying towork out.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Yeah, cool.
So, how did you end up gettinginto your line of work?
I mean, your first recruitingjob, was this a intentional
based on your interest anddesire and people topics, or did
you stumble in it like a lot offolks?
SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I hear that a lot.
I hear that from so many peersthat they've stumbled into it.
I wouldn't say it was quite likethat for me.
I actually did a little bit ofresearch in the last couple of
months of my university degree.
I focused a little bit onbringing some analytical thought
to what I might be interestedin, what I might be good at, and
(17:02):
and I did add, I'll admit, aslice of honesty to that in
terms of what I'd like to mylife to actually look like.
So, you know, what does a goodlifestyle mean to me, and so on.
So when I thought about thatcombined with the socioeconomic
level and so on, I kind ofnarrowed it and narrowed it.
(17:23):
And in a matter of a few months,I thought that I might actually
try to go for just grad schemesin recruitment.
And that's exactly what I did.
So I connected with a couple ofrecruiters at the time that were
focused on placing graduateslike myself into those
recruitment schemes, and Ididn't find it particularly
(17:43):
difficult.
It took me two weeks to secure arole from the moment I
graduated.
I went for a bunch of interviewsand then I received a bunch of
offers and then I made mychoice.
And I started very much on agrad scheme.
I was lucky to start on a verythorough grad scheme.
So for a year I worked for arecruitment agency called
(18:04):
Chapman Black, where theyinvested heavily in teaching you
a lot how to become a toprecruiter at the time.
I benefited from a really robustand thorough grad scheme where
they spent, I would say everycouple of days, they would spend
three to four hours teaching youhow to negotiate, how to explore
(18:24):
the market, how to understand anew role in recruitment, how to
focus to maximize at the timewhat we would call billings and
so on.
So yeah, it was amazing.
And I stayed there for about ayear.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Yeah, I saw so you I was looking at your LinkedIn
profile.
So you started out on the agencyside and then transitioned into
in-house.
Was Google your first in-house?
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
Correct.
It was my first rodeo intoin-house recruitment.
I think for me, it was reallyimportant to make sure that I
make that transition from agencyrecruitment to in-house
recruitment at a time when Ifelt ready.
And I also felt certain that itwas the right move to make.
And once I was certain that itwas the right move to make and
(19:08):
the right time, I wanted, as youmight imagine, like most of us,
I wanted the very best formyself.
And you know, the question I getquite often is how I actually
got into recruiting for Google.
And what I basically did was tochoose a couple of top tech
businesses, and I just went on awhole mission to message as many
(19:34):
people from places at the timelike uh Facebook, because there
was no meta back then, so it wasFacebook, places like Google,
places like Apple.
And I remember I was reallyfocused on big names and really
just messaging people to try tosee if anyone would give me a
chance to interview.
Um, so that's how it happened.
(19:55):
Yeah, as you can see on my CV,that went well.
I did spend about a year and ahalf recruiting for Google as
the first in-house experience.
And as you can imagine, James,that taught me a lot.
I learned an awful lot whilerecruiting for them,
understanding how to assessprofiles at that very high
(20:15):
level.
So, yeah, it was hugelybeneficial.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
So, when you were starting out in recruiting, what
was different than youanticipated, or what was an
assumption that you maybe hadmade in the early days of
recruiting that after a fewyears in you realized wasn't the
case or things, it was a littledifferent than you thought it
would be?
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
I love this question.
I think initially I would havethought probably when I was just
a little bud starting out, Iwould have thought that it's all
about looking at CVs anddeciding who's right, who's
wrong, and then uh, you know,working.
With people and just offeringtons of support.
So perhaps I had that kind ofrose-tinted view of what it
(20:54):
might be.
But of course, what surprisedme, as I find that is the case
with a variety of peers, whatsurprised me was the fact that
it was all about establishing aspecific rhythm of work in order
to become successful.
It was all about a ton of volumein terms of, you know, how many
people you talk to, whetherthey're initially clients or
(21:16):
candidates, right, in the agencyworld.
And afterwards, really just kindof staying focused on how
important the numbers game is inrecruitment.
To me, it still is very much anumbers game.
I feel that you get very muchwhat you put in.
So I think that was thesurprise.
It was just how focused onnumbers, how focused on staying
consistent it would be in orderto become successful.
(21:39):
And really the sales element init as well, right?
There is a very strong saleselement in recruitment from my
point of view.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
Absolutely.
And I think that's an importantaspect, or one of the benefits
of coming up in talentacquisition prior to moving into
a CPO role, right, is reallyunderstanding the funnel aspects
to the job, the parallelsbetween sales, right, and
recruiting over there.
Essentially, I suppose one waywe could look at building
(22:07):
organizations is capturing twoideal demand funnels, right?
We have our ideal client profileand we have our ideal candidate
profile.
So we have ICPs on both sides ofthe house, right?
And then it's about convertingqualified pipelines, right?
Absolutely.
Identifying qualified pipeline,having high standards for the
SQLs, if you will, salesqualified leads, and making sure
(22:29):
only the absolute best fit folksare making it through.
And I do feel like that's a bigadvantage going into a CPO role.
SPEAKER_01 (22:37):
Absolutely.
It's a massive advantage.
And I think what I will probablyalways carry with me is really
that hiring wealth is, in myview, the very core of making a
business successful.
So yeah, of course, if you comefrom recruitment or talent
acquisition, that always tendsto stay with you.
SPEAKER_00 (22:55):
Yeah.
And so now you're in a talentacquisition and people
leadership role, right?
You're overseeing TA and peopleops.
I'm curious to learn more abouta transformative moment, a
breakthrough experience.
It could have been with amentor, a member of your
leadership team, maybe a founderyou worked for.
We're talking about now you'rein your prime, right?
(23:16):
Like you've achieved a highlevel of success in the tech
industry.
I would love to learn more,yeah, about any kind of
breakthrough moments you've hadover the past few years that has
really shaped the executive thatyou've become at this point.
SPEAKER_01 (23:29):
Um absolutely.
There would be quite a few.
You mentioned also dealing withfounders and everything.
So I think I would like toperhaps start with that.
So I guess a breakthrough momentfor me was first of all
understanding that as a seniortalent or people professional,
when you make your choice ofwhat business you'd like to work
(23:51):
for, it's very important to makesure that you can establish the
right synergy with the founderof that business.
So I guess a pivotal moment or abreakthrough moment was for me
meeting our current CEO at SAPI.
I find that the relationshipbetween the people leader and
the CEO is instrumental to thebusiness.
So a break from moment wasmeeting with her, realizing that
(24:14):
is the right kind of founder forme.
And of course, I found out laterthat she felt the same way.
She thought this is the rightpeople leader for the business
that she wants to obviously turninto a success.
So I think that was a break frommoment in the sense that really,
unless that relationship betweenthe people leader and the CEO is
(24:35):
fantastic, unless they worktogether, unless they move into
the same direction and they alsodeploy absolute trust in each
other, I think that will show upin perhaps less revenue than you
might want, in perhaps a bunchmore problems for the business
that you might want to have, andso on.
(24:57):
So a whole host of problemsmight be derived from not having
those elements in thatrelationship that I've
described.
So yeah, this was a pivotalmoment for me.
And I'll be honest, I did haveactually when I made that move
into actually becoming a peopleleader in a startup, I did meet
with quite a lot of CEOs.
(25:18):
And I'll admit that there were acouple of interviews where I
thought, oh, well, thisrelationship definitely that
this is not going to work out.
And it's fine, it's fine to justadmit that it's not going to
work out and find the right CEOfor yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
So, how do you do that, right?
Um, I think I feel likeparticularly when you get to an
executive level, being able tochoose or figure out which
company is gonna be ideal foryou and for them is really
important.
You're operating on a team,you're operating on the
executive team, and certainlythere is a lot under our
control.
There's also things that aren't,where I mean that's what a team
(25:53):
is, right?
Like you have to be able to findfolks that you're gonna work
well with.
What do you look for in thosetypes of relationships?
Like, how do you suss out theleaders and the culture that are
a good fit?
SPEAKER_01 (26:05):
Well, I suppose there are a bunch of ways to do
that.
My mind goes straight away tothe fact that you might want to
ensure you are compatible withthat person, but also that you
complement each other well.
So we all have strengths andweaknesses, right?
And I think it's very importantto match your strengths to their
(26:27):
weaknesses and vice versa.
I think that's a start point.
So, you know, if for instance,let's say as a people leader,
bring a lot of recruitmentexperience, or you know what
building the right kind of HRfoundation, you know what that
really needs to look like, thenyou could very well pair
yourself with an ambitious,young, and motivated CEO that
(26:48):
maybe has not been three timesalready a founder.
Then that's a good match, maybe,right?
Or flip it, just take it, justliterally look at it from the
complete opposite point of view.
So you might want maybe ifsomeone has been a three times
founder, then they couldprobably be paired with a
slightly more junior peopleleader, maybe not someone very
(27:10):
seasoned, and maybe someone thatis also figuring things out and
could learn something from thatCEO.
I think it's complementing eachother well.
I think that's very important.
And I think the second thingthat my mind goes to as an
important element in figuringout whether you can develop the
right kind of relationship witha CEO as a people leader, is can
(27:32):
you establish genuine trust withthat person?
Can you really build the kind ofbond, the kind of trust that is
rather unbreakable?
Because if you don't feel thatperson can fully trust you and
you can fully trust them, thenthat's again that fissure in the
(27:53):
relationship will show up timeand time again.
So I would start there,complementing each other really
well and being able to trusteach other very well and being
at the right point in yourcareer for them, and vice versa.
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
Well, I want to dive more into culture and startup
culture.
I think some similarities acrossthe board for every startup.
When you look at buildingculture, particularly with your
background in cultural studiesand being multicultural
yourself, how do you define aculture and how do you build a
culture that's going to beeffective, performing at the
(28:26):
most competitive level possible,which is essentially high growth
to hypergrowth tech?
How do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
I love that question.
Again, I think it's importantfrom my point of view to not go
in wanting to immediately shakethings up for the sake of
shaking them up.
I think it's important to go inas a people leader into a
business, to just go in with areally curious mind.
It's important for the firstthree, four months to do a lot
of listening rather than beingprone to action for the sake of
(28:56):
action.
Really understanding what's thebase level of the existing
culture.
Because even if startup is veryyoung, they don't yet have maybe
many people, or no one's reallyset up those culture
foundations, if you like, it'svery likely they already have a
culture, right?
They already have a set ofbehaviors, they already have a
(29:18):
set of values, really.
So it's important to figurethose out first.
And then I guess after youunderstood what they have as
culture already, I think it'simportant to figure out what's
not working very well.
What could you actually improve?
What's everyone's view?
What could be improved?
Why it should be improved?
(29:39):
I think it's also important toconnect with the finance leader.
I think that's pivotal.
What are the pain points of thefinance leader?
Because really, the whole point,like you said, of building
amazing culture is to ensure thesuccess of that business, right?
That's really the whole point ofworking really hard to build an
(29:59):
amazing culture is to help thebusiness become successful
through that culture.
So I think it's very telling totalk to the finance leader and
understand what's actually notworking.
What do they think is holding usback in terms of generating more
revenue, right?
Or if we generate a ton ofrevenue and they're already
extremely happy as a financeleader, maybe what's holding us
(30:22):
back from that next step toreach profitability.
So it's really kind of doing athorough listening tour to
understand the business ascompletely as possible, and then
stepping into action mode, intofixing mode.
Work out what needs to be fixedand why first.
And then I suppose with a lot ofpatience, you can slowly gain
(30:46):
people's trust and build theculture that will be conducive
to success for the business.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
So, what would you say for leaders that maybe are
struggling with culture orthere's gaps between where they
are and where they want to be?
Where do you start?
What you're saying aboutconnecting with finance and just
purely from like a PL growthperspective, looking at what
(31:13):
they think the gaps are, ofcourse, and probably different
leaders across the organizationtoo, right?
But what's next?
I would think that there's liketwo aspects to it, right?
You have your existing team thatyou're trying to shift the
culture with, and then you havethe ability to hire different
potentially behavioral fits orculture fits or ads or however
(31:33):
you want to put it to theorganization as well.
I think probably even the harderof the two is to take an
existing team.
Maybe you don't agree, I don'tknow, but take that existing
team and improve the culture.
Do you have any advice on likehow do you do that when you need
to go through a large culturalshift?
SPEAKER_01 (31:53):
It really depends on the size of the business.
It depends on how many peoplethey have, right?
If the business is already,let's just say if they've
already got 500 people, then ofcourse you need to accept what's
there already and try to seewhat you can slowly change in
time in the right way.
But if it's a very smallbusiness and you find that
(32:15):
you've also you've almost got aclean slate, then that's I
suppose a lot easier to justbuild from scratch on, right?
So it depends on the businessfirst.
I mean, the type of work of apeople leader is vastly
different from a small businessthat's a bit scrappy, let's say,
to a large corporate.
(32:36):
In my view, if we're talking abusiness that has up to 100
people in comparison to abusiness that has maybe more
than a thousand people, thoseare at times very different
jobs, even though you might havethe same title.
So let's start by admitting tothat and being very transparent
in that regard.
But I guess in terms of actuallyaffecting the right change, it
(32:59):
really is, I think for me,before anything else, it comes
down to listening, understandingwhat's there first, doing that
first thorough listening tour toreally understand what you're
working with.
What are the pain points?
How do they relate to theperceived financial success of
that business?
So it's really kind of trying tosee what needs to be fixed,
(33:21):
really.
But again, that comes down tothe kind of relationship you'll
be able to have with the CEO.
Because if you have a C, let'ssay you're an exceptional people
leader, let's say you step intoa business where maybe they
don't have huge problems interms of culture.
But if that relationship betweenthe people leader and the CEO is
not amazing and based on trustand collaboration, I do not
(33:46):
believe that success can comeout of that.
I I just don't see it.
So it really is about buildingtrust and being a good listener
initially, and then being veryanalytical, very structured, and
getting on with the work thatneeds to be done.
That's how I would see it.
Does that does that framing makesense?
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
It makes a lot of sense.
And I'm wondering too, it's likewhen you're talking about the
importance of really listeningand slowing down.
Would you say that yourbackground that studying doing
cultural studies really at thecore, also looking at
distinguishing differences,right?
I would think probably impactshow you think about process as
well, right?
SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
Very much so.
You're absolutely correct.
It does impact how I think aboutthings.
And I am very much of the schoolof thought that good culture
equals future success for thebusiness.
And what I mean by good culture,I guess if I had to strip it
down to a very basic summary,what we've done at SAPI, I
(34:49):
guess, is a good example for it.
We've focused on hiring reallysmart people of very high
caliber in terms of cognitiveabilities, but we also ensured
they would be extremely kind andcollaborative.
And if you have these twoguiding principles as your North
Star, that's a good place tostart.
(35:09):
You want people to be verysmart, ambitious, but you also
want them to understand thatthey need to get along with
everyone, right?
They need to be kind,collaborative.
Then I guess that is a goodfoundation on which in time you
can become more sophisticated,you can have new wish lists to
add to that kind of cultureevery year.
(35:30):
But I think that's a goodfoundation.
That's how I see it.
And as I said, we did that atSAPI and it's worked out pretty
well.
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
All right, that's great.
How long have you been in theCPO role?
SPEAKER_01 (35:41):
The CPO one, I think it's about seven to eight
months.
SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
Yeah, yeah, okay, cool.
Okay, so you made it to C level.
Now you're overseeing people opsand talent acquisition for a
tech company.
When you look at your ownjourney and career path and
trajectory, right?
What's next?
Like what's most important toyou at this point in your life
and career?
SPEAKER_01 (36:05):
At this point in time, much like our CEO, the
main point for me is to get usto profitability.
And I assure you, James, I'm asfocused on that as she is.
We have a common goal.
We need to get to profitability.
I think we're doing well, andtherefore we just need to now
figure out again what needs abit of tweaking, what needs a
(36:27):
bit of fixing on the peopleside, on the culture side, in
order to make sure that everyoneelse in the business can work
like a well-oiled machine inorder to get us to
profitability, right?
That kind of feeds intoeverything that I have on my
mind right now.
And as you might know withstartups, right, when you join a
(36:47):
startup, so I joined them abouttwo years and a half ago.
When you join a startup, youkind of need to want that
business to become successful,right?
Their success is your success asa people leader, especially if
you've built that peoplefunction from scratch, like I
did here.
So that's really at the momentwhat I would like to see happen.
(37:08):
I would like us to becomeprofitable.
And I guess once that wouldhappen, how do we get better?
How do we generate even moreprofit?
How do we move forward, really?
I think that is the next, yeah,that is really the next goal in
my mind.
And of course, if I'm thinkingmore long term, I would
(37:28):
absolutely love to grow into aboard advisor.
If we're thinking five to 10years' time, I'd love to grow
into a board advisor.
I'd love to get involved in asmany startups as possible, even
as a non-exec director,eventually, if we're talking 10
to 15 years' time from now.
So I do have a bunch of goals,but I think the most important
(37:51):
thing is to get SAPI to reachthe ultimate point of success.
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
So, how do you think about your own personal
development in order toaccomplish these ambitious
goals?
You're now in charge ofpartnering with the CEO to take
the company to profitability, tocontinue to grow aggressively,
to build this amazing culture.
What are you working on as anindividual, or how do you think
about your own growth to be ableto get the most out of your
career and get your most out oflife at this point in time?
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
There's a bunch of things that I have in mind, but
I do very much think it'simportant to stay on top of
everything that changes and thechanges rapid in the tech
sector, right?
I'm speaking here abouteverything from tools to not
being left behind in terms ofusing AI in the right manner and
(38:42):
at the right level.
Also, I guess a lot of thoughtin terms of my own development
goes into being a good guide toour leadership team as a whole.
So helping them develop.
A huge part of my role, like youwould find with most people at
my level, is to help theleadership team to be fantastic
(39:05):
when it comes down to managingothers and when it comes down to
being strategic, right?
And doing the right thing forthe business.
So it's coaching the leaders inour business.
It's something I'm focused quitea bit on.
Also, of course, coaching thepeople in my own team, getting
them to be successful.
Their success is my success.
I guess it's also just keeprefining everything about me
(39:28):
that can be refined.
It's really good to come to thissort of thought process and this
sort of conversation with a lotof humility, in the sense that
none of us have finishedarticles.
So I think it's really importantto figure out from time to time,
maybe quarterly, to ask, okay,what course could I possibly
take?
What could I improve at?
(39:48):
You know, is it that I shouldlearn a little bit more about
how I don't know, AI could takeus to the next level?
Is it that I could learn alittle bit more about
communication, right?
I mean, it could really beanything.
It could be any course.
Is it that I could get better atpublic speaking so that I, you
know, I evangelize the name ofthe business further?
(40:11):
It could be anything, but Ithink it's important to bring
humility to this process and todo an assessment of where I am
every quarter.
SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
I'd be curious to learn how your definition of
success has potentially changednow that you're at the C level,
executive level versus back inthe days when you were at Google
or on the agency side.
For you, just as an individual,I mean, has your perspective on
success changed?
SPEAKER_01 (40:38):
Oh, absolutely, it has.
Absolutely.
I think most of us could beforgiven when we're younger of
just assuming that success.
Success equals status or successjust equals a certain reaching a
certain financial level.
But of course, these days, I'mthinking quite a lot about being
(40:58):
able to stay on top of my work,but at the same time staying
healthy.
I'm also thinking a lot aboutwork-life balance, because
whilst your experience and yourknowledge increase in time, I do
find that perhaps your staminais not as it was when you were
25 years old.
(41:18):
My stamina is not as it was whenI was 25, that's for sure.
So I guess you start thinkingabout how you can be productive,
how you can actually worksmarter rather than harder.
You can think about how you canbe a bit more strategic, how you
can stay healthy.
So I guess success means being,for me, success means being
happy, being pleased with whereI am in terms of my career, but
(41:42):
also being happy with how muchcare I take of myself mentally,
physically.
Do I still have time to learn?
That's also an indicator ofsuccess, because if I find that
I don't have the time to learn,that means in a year or two
years' time I would havestagnated.
So it's such a complex ecosystemas we age in terms of defining
(42:02):
success.
And when we're younger, perhapswe have a more simplistic view
of what success might mean.
SPEAKER_00 (42:09):
I definitely agree with that.
It's finding balance, right?
And it's not even just balance.
Like I think what you brought upthat's really I find really
interesting is that you're notjust thinking about balance in
terms of like work-life balancetraditionally between your
personal life and your career,but it's also like balance in
terms of how you're investingtime in your career versus
(42:29):
execution and beingforward-thinking and learning.
There has to be a balancing actthere.
And maybe it makes sense for usto be intentional about finding
that balance.
So it's like we're continuouslyfueling and investing in our own
future, right?
Absolutely.
I already have a pretty goodsense for this.
Um, you know, you bring uphumility, you bring up
(42:52):
listening, culture.
What type of leader do you wantto continue to become?
SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
I think I would love to be guided by a mix of
ambition and kindness.
So I think I don't believe inachieving success by being
ruthless.
I believe that success can beachieved by staying on track,
having a North Star at alltimes.
(43:17):
So, yes, being ambitious.
But I do think it's veryimportant to be kind and to
deploy all of these effortstowards success and growth with
a lot of empathy for others.
That's really what I'd like tomix ambition and kindness.
SPEAKER_00 (43:35):
I love that.
So I'd love to cover a couplemore questions with you.
I wanted to just get a sense foreverybody tuning in, right?
Like I think everybody that'spart of the show, whether as a
guest or audience and myself,we're always looking for ways to
improve.
We're looking for areas ofdevelopment.
Um is there any book that youfeel like's had the biggest
(43:57):
impact on your life or career?
SPEAKER_01 (43:59):
Oh goodness, yes.
I love I'm an avid reader, so Iabsolutely love reading books.
I think you've opened Pandora'sbox just now.
So I could see it could reallygo on with a massive list.
But I think in terms of booksthat immediately come to my
mind, why don't we do this?
I'll focus on one that I thinkwas important in my formative
(44:19):
years, and then I guess I'llfocus on a recent one that's
kind of perhaps shaped the way Ithink about things.
So I think one that really wasincredibly impactful when I was
roughly I must have been 17years old, 18 years old.
It was recommended by one of myteachers in one of my professors
(44:43):
in high school.
It's Daniel Goldman's book onemotional intelligence.
I find that for a young person,or for the young person I was at
the time, it provided me withreassurance that there isn't
just one type of intelligence.
Um, you know, it's it's veryeasy, I suppose, given my
background, to believe that theonly type of intelligence is the
(45:07):
one that has to do with STEM,right?
So sciences in general, orpattern recognition.
So the logical part of what itmeans to be intelligent.
But I think for me it meant alot to have that book
recommended by one of myprofessors and to say, hey,
actually, there's this otherside of things that if explored
(45:28):
in the right way, so if youexplore your emotional
intelligence and you make use ofit in the right way, it could
really deliver tremendoussuccess in the long term as an
individual for yourself.
So that really was a pivotalmoment for me, understanding
that there's more to it thanbeing good at maths, basically.
And a book that has made animpression on me more recently,
(45:51):
I think it was a year ago or so,if I'm not mistaken.
I read a book called Trust.
I think it won an award.
I would have to look it up.
Um, yeah, it's called Trust.
I think his name is Hernan Diaz,if I'm not mistaken.
I'll get the name for you in aminute.
Yes, Hernan Diaz.
I got it.
I got it right the first timearound.
(46:12):
So yeah, I think that reallymade an impression on me in the
sense that the message I wouldtake from it is not everything
is as it might appear.
And I guess most people thatread that book would have a very
different view of what'shappening there by the time they
finish the book.
So I think it's important to nottake anything at face value, to
(46:34):
look a little bit deeper intosituations, into people, and to
kind of take your time to makeup your own mind.
SPEAKER_00 (46:42):
Well, that ties back to what you studied in school.
SPEAKER_01 (46:45):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (46:46):
It's like a common theme, right?
Like throughout this episode.
Throughout your life.
SPEAKER_01 (46:49):
Absolutely.
I think that just shows, James,our formative ears are massive.
SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
Yeah, oh yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Well, I haven't heard of thatsecond book.
For everybody tuning in, we'lldrop the links to the books in
the description of the episode.
But Anna, I really wanted tojust take a moment to say thank
you for joining me on the showtoday.
This has been a lot of fun,really interesting too.
I really enjoyed the angle ofjumping into cultural studies
(47:15):
and really understandingdifferences and slowing down the
listen in terms of how thatimpacts building relationships
and culture and thinking aboutour own development as well as
that of others.
So this was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (47:27):
Thank you very much, James.
I really appreciate the invite.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
I think you had some fantasticquestions that I've genuinely
enjoyed exploring with you.
And yeah, it's been likewise alot of fun.
And thank you so much for havingme.
SPEAKER_00 (47:41):
Yeah, of course.
Let's do this again sometime.
SPEAKER_01 (47:44):
Absolutely.
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