EP 185: How Teaching Influenced This Talent Leader's Perspective

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
So for everybody tuning in today, we have Tracy
St.
Deke on the show.
Tracy is currently the globalhead of talent at Zapier.
Tracy, we're happy that you'rehere with us today.

SPEAKER_02 (00:57):
Thanks so much for the invitation.
I'm eager to chat.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00):
Let's do it.
So, uh, Tracy, where did yougrow up?

SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
I grew up in Austin, Texas.

unknown (01:06):
Nice.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06):
But I've been in I've been in Los Angeles now for
gosh, almost 16 or 17 years.
So I consider myself an Angelinoat this point.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Okay.
Yeah, nice.
That's good.
Okay.
So you were born and raised inAustin.
It seems like most people intech kind of migrated there over
the past 10 years.
So you were there likeoriginally before everybody else
in our industry, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
Oh yeah.
I am like Austin OG.
My parents went to theUniversity of Texas and my
sister went to the University ofTexas.
I was the only one in my familywho did it.
But I grew up in Austin at thetime when Austin was still um in
that keep Austin weird era wherewe were like very original, a
little bit hippie, um, you know,before all of the tech folks and

(01:51):
all the folks from Californiaand New York came in.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
Do you ever go back and visit?

SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Oh, yeah.
I got married there and then myparents are still there.
So I actually haven't been backto visit as much.
Every time I go, the city haschanged so much, like so much
bigger, so much more people.
It's really why it's really wildhow how Austin has changed with
the whole tech scene in a waythat I think is great and also
can be challenging.

SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
So do you feel like the culture has changed there?

SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
I think it has, yeah, absolutely.
I think it's become a little bitmore tech centric.
I also think, you know, Austinstill remains one of the more
liberal places in Texas.
But I also think, you know,there's just a lot of folks
coming in from outside of Texas,moving to Austin for the tech
scene, or just because it's agreat place to live with the

(02:38):
live music and the food andeverything like that.
So it's becoming a realcosmopolitan city, I think, in a
number of ways.
And that's not good or bad, it'sjust different.

SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
So when I grew up different.
Yeah, it must be sort of trippy.
I mean, where I grew up is inNorthern Virginia, which I don't
know if you've been on here, butit's like I'm 30 minutes outside
of DC.
Actually, now it's more like 40minutes, just the communes
getting longer since I was akid.
But it's just this area sort ofwent through this crazy
transformation where it wasprimarily like farmland when I

(03:08):
was a kid, and now it's like theheadquarters of the internet and
data centers.

SPEAKER_02 (03:11):
Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Uh and it's just like the population totally
exploded.

SPEAKER_02 (03:15):
So yeah, that's why, yeah.
Places that were not a part ofAustin, like other cities that
you would not consider Austin,you wouldn't go to are now like
Austin adjacent, or it's likegreater Austin.
So it's like the city hasdefinitely gotten bigger.
And we've thought about movingback, but I mean, we honestly
love we love LA.
You can't beat it.

SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Yeah, I mean, the weather is just it's perfect.

SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
It's I think it's supposed to be 84 degrees and
sunny today in the middle of thewinter.
So okay.

SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
Well, here it's 30 degrees, but it feels like it's
negative 20 and it's windy ashell.

SPEAKER_02 (03:45):
So that's we all make we all make life choices,
and I some of us clearly I'mmaking bad life choices.
That's that's on you, but that'son you.

SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Make better choices.
Yeah.
So what were you like as a kid?

SPEAKER_02 (03:57):
Oh gosh.
I was a second child, so I had alot of second child energy, uh,
very much social butterfly.
Very, very um like good atschool.
I was like super academic.
I was valedictorian of uh myhigh school class.
So it gives you a sense of likehow academically focused I was.
But I was also into a lot ofextracurriculars, like I did

(04:20):
dance, I did theater, I didmusic, I um just had a lot of
interest growing up.
So I can say that as a kid, justlike now, I think I was very
overscheduled and likeoverstimulated all the time.
I I really loved my parentsinstilled in me like this real
sense of independence and traveland I think adventure in a way

(04:43):
that is is so much a part of whoI am right now.
I have a lot of interests.
I like to push myself to try alot of different things and was
very ambitious, I think, as achild.

SPEAKER_00 (04:55):
I love that.
So, was education reallyimportant to your parents?
And is that where you got itfrom, or was that something more
innately to you that youdisvalued from the start?

SPEAKER_02 (05:05):
Oh, I think it absolutely came from my parents.
So my dad was an immigrant fromthe Philippines.
My mom was sort of an army bratand grew up on different army
bases.
They both were the first intheir family to attend college,
or the first generation of theirfamily to attend college.
And so growing up, this was sucha huge and important piece of

(05:26):
our lives.
My mom was also a public schoolteacher in Austin, and she chose
to spend her career teaching inmore low-income, like Title I
schools.
And so I saw from an early agejust the importance of
education, the importance ofeducation as an opportunity
equalizer in some ways.
And yeah, I would certainly sayit was a big piece growing up,

(05:47):
but also I was prettycompetitive.
My sister was also a goodstudent, she was salutatorian of
our high school class, and soobviously I had to beat that.
So there's some kind of spiritin there that I think is uh was
also a driving factor.

SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Yeah.
Well, so so what um was yourfavorite topic?
My favorite topic, yeah, orclass, like uh more on the
literature English side, STEM.
What did you love to do?

SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
Um, I loved writing, but I was very, very good at
math too.
Um so I was yeah, I had a lotlike a lot of right brain, left
brain.
My big passion in high schoolwas theater and like the arts.
I ended up then you knowstudying that in college in and
again did a little bit of likeleft brain, right blane.
I went to the University ofNorth Carolina, Chapel Hill, and

(06:32):
was a tar heel, but I studiedbusiness and dramatic art.
So again, I always kind of hadthat practical side and then
more of like the arts humanityside that felt really important
to stay balanced, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
That actually sounds like uh myfamily as well.
So my mom was an artist and shewas actually an actress.
She also went to Chapel Hill, bythe way.

SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
No way! Oh, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
So I get like I feel like my creative side from her
and sort of my wild side when itcomes to travel and adventure
and experiencing new things.
Um, you know, she did crazystuff.
Like she traveled down theAmazon River alone in her 20s
and almost got kidnapped by drugdealers and all sorts of crazy
stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (07:17):
I'll just say your mom is like goals, and then
maybe like minus that last part.

SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and um, and then yeah, soI kind of grew up with that too,
where you know, particularlywhen I was younger, I was like
really interested in the arts,but I was also very driven and
ambitious in business.
And I think as I became anadult, I kind of veered toward
the business side because it wasjust like slightly more I don't
know, I guess I was likeslightly more interested in it
ultimately.

(07:42):
I think it's cool when you getto experience both, right?
Like that I think that balanceis really important.

SPEAKER_02 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think, I mean, there's somuch psychology, and I'm sure a
lot of research that people canpull from this, but you are
better at the business aspectswhen you have these creative
outlets and you have theopportunity to push yourself in
different ways and and stimulatethat side of your brain, and
vice versa, right?
I think the balance is is reallykey.

SPEAKER_00 (08:07):
So with dramatic arts specifically, what were you
most interested in?

SPEAKER_02 (08:12):
Yeah, so it actually wasn't like acting or anything
like that.
I was very interested indirecting.
I went to a huge public highschool in Austin, Texas.
I went to Bowie High School, andat the time we were really, and
I don't know how what it is now,you know, like many 20 plus
years later, but at the time,you know, really big arts
programs, really big theaterprograms.
So we actually had almost likethis directing track as well in

(08:34):
a high school theater program.
So I got this this early chanceto like direct in high school
and then took that into college.
So I loved, I love directing, Ilove being behind the scenes, I
loved orchestrating all thepieces of the puzzle of how a
production comes together.
I loved supporting and coachinglike my actors and ensuring that
everyone could shine and be themtheir best selves.

(08:56):
And then I also love the historyaspect.
So I actually was my major intheater when I was at North
Carolina was because I was adouble major, that piece of it
was directing and dramaturgy,which is like the history of
theater and understanding howarts and movements have
impacted, you know, theater as awhole, but also being able to
understand the historicalelements and the significance of

(09:18):
things in plays and in scripts.
And so again, like really nerdy,like really, really loved that
aspect of it.
Um, but was very much like howeverything comes together was
really fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
You're a very intellectually curious person,
uh, very interested in thehistorical context to truly
develop a very solid foundation,right?
Starting with that aspect of it.
Um, well, so that's cool.
So on the directing side, whattypes of projects did you
ultimately get to work on?

SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, if this again, this wasin college.
So we did a bunch of plays thatI was able to direct.
One of my favorite ones that wedid, because it was a huge
fundraiser at our school, is Idirected the vagina monologues,
um, which every year aroundValentine's Day was a huge
fundraiser for the Orange CountyRape and Crisis Center.
And so I got to direct that.
I did it in a bit of a differentway than is the traditional way.

(10:09):
And what was very cool is I gotto meet the author, uh Eve
Insler, in the process.
So she's like a personal hero,the way that she writes about
feminist movements and womenempowerment and does so in the
realm of theater and plays andbringing that to larger
audiences.
So uh actually, my youngestdaughter is named Insler after
Eve Insler.

(10:30):
Yeah.
So that's really cool.
But she had a she had a hugeimpact on how I thought about
the arts and the medium oftheater or any entertainment to
bring whether it's likeeducation or knowledge or
humanity to issues that peopledon't think about every day.
And in this case with the vaginamonologues, you know, there's a
spectrum of stories, but part ofthat is also some like violence

(10:53):
against women and women'sempowerment and um autonomy over
their bodies, right?
And so a big piece of myexperience doing that was
understanding how powerful it isto be able to expose people to
knowledge, education, differentideas in a way that can be more
accessible to them, potentiallyfeels less, I don't know, like

(11:17):
spicy or risky or you know, likea hot topic, right?
Ways that you can introducedifferent ideas to folks in a
medium that they can access in amore easy way that feels like
entertainment.
And so that was a huge lessonfor me and kind of fueled this
love of arts advocacy.
For a long time, I thought Iwanted to, my career, I wanted
to run an arts nonprofit.
And I wanted to think about howyou can expose more people to

(11:40):
ideas, expose more people to anart form that could help them
think and approach the world indifferent ways.
So that has been like a big, abig passion of mine.
And we can talk about it later,but that kind of like led me
down like many different pathsrelated to to talent and
education in the process.

SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
What was the author's name again?
Eve Insler?
Eve?

SPEAKER_02 (12:01):
Eve, like Eve.

SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
Sorry.
Um sorry.
So what was that conversationlike with her?
What did the two of you discuss?

SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
Oh gosh, okay.
You're asking me to recall liketwo decades ago.
Um, I mean, I remember talkingto her about um, you know, why
she chose to write about thethings that she chose because
this the vagina monologueswasn't the only um, you know,
play that she wrote.
She wrote one about like uh, Ithink I can't remember the name

(12:29):
of it now off the top of myhead, but about like body image.
There was a number of plays thatshe had written that sort of
exposed different issues forwomen around the world.
And one of the most interestingconversations that I had with
her was just, you know, what washer intention with this?
And the takeaway that I had wastruly that.
It's like these are things thathappen to women that women

(12:50):
experience and women think aboutall over the world.
And it's become taboo.
It's things that we don't talkabout, it's things that feel um,
you know, they're like hush,hush conversations.
Maybe you don't even talk aboutit with your friends or your
family members, but being ableto bring that to light and to
normalize it actually does a lotmore good, not just for women,
but for everybody.

(13:10):
And that to me kind of gave methe charge of like, okay, like
this is not just a fun play thatI'm directing in college is like
a fun hobby.
But one, not only is it raisingmoney for a cause that I care
about, but it's actually anopportunity to bring, you know,
more of these issues to light.
And in my small corner of theworld in Chapel Hill, North
Carolina, right?
So um, theater is still like abig part of my life now.

(13:33):
I've been on junior boards forlike arts education and
nonprofits here in Los Angeleshave done some volunteering in
that sense.
But um I still truly, truly dobelieve that being able to have
mediums like this that exposepeople to different ideas is a
major way that we like buildunderstanding.
And like that truly came fromnot like this experience, but
like conversations with Eveherself.

(13:55):
So talk about a formative lifemoment in college, right?

SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
Yeah, that's really cool that you had the ability to
have those conversations andthose experiences at that point
in your life, particularly atthat formative time.
So, in terms of art being amedian to bring up uh social
issues or even moral issues orimportant topics, do you think
the reason it's so important andeffective is it because it

(14:22):
invokes like an emotionalconnection with the audience?
It kind of helps people droptheir guards and connect more in
order to maybe have more likeempathy or understanding
surrounding a topic.
I'm just curious, likeunderstanding from your
perspective.

SPEAKER_02 (14:35):
I mean, absolutely.
I mean, I think that's why Ilove live theater in particular,
because when I go see plays now,which which I do regularly, I'm
so often interested in theaudience's reaction to what
you're seeing.
So almost less so of what'shappening on the stage, but like
being in a live audience, youcan sort of feel the energy.
I think the same thing happenswhen you like go to a movie

(14:56):
theater, right?
It's like you can sort of feelhow the audience is reacting to
certain things.
And I think that is justabsolutely fascinating.
I just love being in that space,but you captured it perfectly,
accessing different ideas,different people, identities,
backgrounds, ways of life,culture, right?
For so long, the arts medium hasbeen able to share that with

(15:20):
folks in a way that doesn't feelthreatening or scary, or you
know, someone telling you likeyou should believe XYZ.
But it's like actually helpingyou connect with the humanity of
others through this arts medium,I think is what allows people to
build that empathy andunderstanding and put themselves
in the shoes of other people.
And so that has always been tome, I think, the most powerful

(15:42):
part of an arts medium well doneis that you're actually able to
push people to think outside ofthemselves and connect to the
broader world around them.
And that's always the piece thatI feel like there's a saying
that I heard really early on inmy career, which is like the
arts is the best way for peopleto understand humanity.
I just truly believe that in somany ways.
And that's why I became, youknow, in college, even though I

(16:06):
was very interested in directingand dramaturgy and wanted to run
an arts nonprofit, a big passionof mine, going back to like my
upbringing and my mom as apublic school teacher, was this
idea of arts access and artsadvocacy and ensuring that
students of all backgrounds wereable to access what I thought
was like this really kind oflike life-changing medium like

(16:27):
theater and arts and all ofthat.
And so my senior project and mythesis, my senior year, was
really focused on figuring out asystem where in this area in
Chapel Hill, you could actuallyhave teaching artists work with
a local theater who would teachstudents.
And it was just sort of thisbeautiful way to expose students

(16:47):
who wouldn't normally get accessto the arts, access to it, while
also providing a way for youknow community theater to like
give back to the community.
Um, and just reallyunderstanding and exploring like
the arts movement in the US andhow we can bring more of that to
students.
Um, and so that really led me todo a lot of research about
understanding the arts movementin the US and why, unlike other

(17:09):
countries, we might not have asmuch of a government-backed arts
movement in some places.
And it led me to this line ofthinking where what really led
and connected that passion ofarts and arts advocacy to
education is that when I was inmy senior year at Carolina, a
lot of my thesis was aroundtrying to understand, you know,

(17:33):
how is it that we could expandaccess to the arts for
underserved and minoritycommunities so that especially
students who wouldn'tnecessarily have access to go to
the theater or go to the operacould have access to those same
concepts and this medium thatcould be really important for
how they understand the worldaround them, how they understand
society and things like that.

(17:53):
So my thesis was on artsadvocacy and arts integration
education.
And when I was doing researchand talking to professionals as
a part of my research, the thingthat kept coming up is like, you
know, we can't talk aboutteaching kids Shakespeare if
they don't even know how toread.
And that like hit me like a tonof bricks, right?

(18:13):
When I was, you know, a senior,I was like, I want to run an
arts nonprofit and I want tolike be an arts advocate and all
of this.
And then it started to always goback to if you really wanted to
accomplish that, then access toeducation is like number one
because there are so many kidsall over the country in
particular who are not readingat the level that they need to

(18:33):
be reading at or doing math atthe level that they need to be
doing math at, right?

SPEAKER_00 (18:37):
I believe that that issue is getting a little bit
worse in this country, right?
I think reading levels literacyis Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
And especially after, especially after COVID.
But um the education system inthe US is dire if you look at it
in aggregate.
Now, does it work for somepeople and some zip codes or
some you know private schools orthose who have access to it?
Absolutely.
But for masses, especially kidswho are growing up, going to
Title I schools, public schools,like they are not getting the

(19:05):
support that they need to readand write on the level they need
to to compete in the world,right?
So as I was kind of like, oh,how do we expose more kids to
the arts?
I kept going back to how do wejust ensure kids are reading?
How do we ensure that kids cando math at a basic level so that
they can get a job and createoptions for themselves after
they, you know, they hopefullygraduate, right?
And also how many students arenot even graduating?

(19:27):
And so it really started to putmy focus on public education in
general.
So it went from like this loveof the arts and this sort of
optimistic, how do we bring, youknow, the more arts to more
students, to like, gosh, what ishappening in public education
today that is making it wherethe arts is like a second or
third order, you know, charge,right?
That led me then to kind of goback to my roots with my mom as

(19:51):
a public school teacher, reallyunderstand my values and what I
think is important in the world,which is ensuring all students
have access to an excellenteducation so that they can chart
their own path.
And that led me eventually toTeach for America.
So, even as a business anddramatic arts major, my first
job out of college was throughTeach for America, teaching

(20:11):
kindergarten in Brooklyn for myfirst two years out of college.

SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
That's amazing.
And so, just for those tuningin, could you explain more about
Teach for America?

SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:21):
What the organization does?

SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
Yeah.
So Teach for America is aneducation nonprofit.
And their mission is to find anddevelop and train incredible
young people to teach in aclassroom for at least two years
and then go on to be lifelongadvocates of education.
Um, and Teach for Americastarted in 1990 and it has

(20:42):
expanded to be the biggest, mostdiverse teacher pipeline.
The country.
They have, I think now at thispoint, probably 40 to 50 regions
across the US.
New York was one of the firstones.
And their whole model is to findincredible young people.
I mean, it could be mostlycollege students, is where they
recruited, but then also, youknow, other young professionals

(21:04):
as well.
And to say, let's take all ofthose talent and those skills.
We will train you how to be ateacher.
We'll even, in many cases, giveyou your graduate degree in
education, which is what I did.
But we will also support you sothat you can help fill this
teacher shortage that we haveacross the country.
And so that we can have a highquality teacher in classrooms
where students really need it.
And so I was trained as anelementary teacher.

(21:27):
I taught kindergarten inBrooklyn and had a lot of
support from Teach for Americato make me an effective teacher.
Taught for two years, uh, two ofthose initial years, which is
the commitment in mykindergarten classroom.
And the idea is that beingexposed and in real service of
your kids and communities as ateacher also shapes you really

(21:47):
early on in your career assomebody who is going to be an
advocate for education and foryour kids for the rest of your
life.
So when I was in my classroom,in those four walls of the
classroom, what I learned fromthat is you see every issue of
poverty and every social illsort of come together within
those four walls.
So it wasn't just abouteducation, but it was the fact

(22:11):
that my students didn't haveaccess to high-quality food at
all times.
They didn't have access totransportation, green space,
urban planning is this is anissue that intersects with that.
There are so many things thatyou start to understand being in
a classroom, working withstudents, working with their
families, that you absolutelyunderstand more about how all of

(22:34):
these issues come together andhow all of these issues of
poverty come together for kidsand what that means for their
access and their opportunitiesand their ability to have their
own life choices.
And so Teach for America broadlyis to ensure that all students
have access to a great educationby having really high-quality
teachers in classrooms.
But I think the other side ofthat is ensuring that people

(22:55):
like myself, young people whoare starting their careers, have
a life-changing and foundationalexperience that then influences
everything else that they'regoing to do for the rest of
their lives.
What they advocate for, how theyvote, how they think about
certain political or localissues.
And it's really meant to broadenthe awareness of how you can be
in more in service of equity andopportunity for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
Wow.
And so after two years, itsounds like you decided you
really wanted to be part of theorganization directly, like
internally, versus continuingdown the teacher path.
Um what I'm getting from you, itsounds like everything you've
done has really been there's afew underlying themes here.
You follow your passion, you'reintentional, and you're also

(23:42):
pretty intellectually curious.
Like even when you're talkingabout dramatic arts, going back
and understanding historicalcontext, and then you talk about
okay, transitioning to teachingbecause you're like thinking
even more deeply about okay,well, to understand art, and for
instance, Shakespeare, like youhave to have the ability to read
at a certain level, so you'reconsistently like working

(24:03):
backward almost to get to likethe fundamental root challenge
or opportunity.
And so is that sort of what whenyou decide to go from teaching
to essentially to the source,right?
Getting getting to teach forAmerica and then building a
career there was a similarmindset of like following
impact, where you feel like youcan make the essentially

(24:24):
greatest social impact, itsounds like is very important to
you.

SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
I mean, James, I love I love that mirror that you
just reflected back to me.
And I think you made it soundeven better.
I mean, like, but it's it'sreally true.
I I would say like followingimpact has been really what has
driven my career a hundredpercent.
Because when I was finished withmy time in the classroom, I I
was so attached to my students.

(24:49):
I love them, I love theirfamilies, I and it broke my
heart in some ways that youknow, after my classroom, they
go on to the next classroom andthe next and the next.
And like I don't have controlover their educational outcomes.
And so it became a real chargefor me to say, I want to ensure
that my kids, as in like thekids that I taught, continue to

(25:11):
have great teachers.
What can I do about that?
Oh, I can find more people to beteachers in classrooms.
And specifically, I was reallyfocused on teachers that looked
like them because I taught inEast New York, Brooklyn.
The majority of my students wereAfrican, Caribbean immigrants,
some Latino immigrants as well.
And the reality is in our schoolsystem, there is not many

(25:32):
teachers that look like mystudents or that come from the
backgrounds that they come from.
And so being able to identifywith them, there's a huge
shortage of male teachers, forexample, which are just
incredible in terms of rolemodels for our young boys.
And so I was felt really chargedof like, gosh, I really want to
help extend Teach for America'smission.
I thought at first, like, maybeI'll go into development, maybe
I'll try to help raise money.

(25:54):
And I had a recruiter that waslike, you know, I think your
skill set and what your passionis could be really useful in
recruiting.
And I was like, recruiting?
I don't know.
I'm not, I had never thoughtabout that.
Um, but that's how I joinedTeach for America, the
organization.
I became a recruiter in SouthernCalifornia, recruiting out of
the University of SouthernCalifornia and the Claremont
colleges, and really trying toconvince college students who

(26:17):
had at that point, you know,every opportunity in the world
could have gone and doneanything that they wanted to do,
that the most impactful thingthat they could do would be to
spend the first two years oftheir lives out of college, at
least putting their talentstowards ensuring that every kid
has a great education.
And so absolutely, like I feltlike I had such a passion for

(26:38):
this.
I wanted to get more people intothis.
And I feel like I had somethingto say about it, about how it
changed me, about how itchanged, you know, my this, my
students' lives that I workedwith and wanted to go out and
kind of evangelize and sharethat message.
So that's how I got into workingwith Teach for America and
that's how I got intorecruitment as well.

SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
And that was also when you ended up moving to LA,
I think, right?

SPEAKER_02 (27:01):
Yes, yeah, when I started recruiting out of
Southern California.

SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
You also mentioned travel and adventures, like
really important to you.
Were you ever working remotely?
And is that what allowed you?
Or uh how did you?
I'm just curious about where youended up, your travels took you
and just throughout those yearsas well.

SPEAKER_02 (27:19):
Oh gosh.
Well, when I was a Teach forAmerica, which I was on staff
and on the recruitment team forabout 13 years, we were like at
college campuses all the time.
So I started as a recruiter andthen I managed recruiters.
I kept managing more and moreterritory.
So eventually I ran recruitmentfor a lot of the West Coast,
Hawaii, things like that.

(27:39):
And then at the end, for a fewyears, I actually was SVP of all
of recruitment at Teach forAmerica.
So, James, I know more aboutcollege campuses than I ever
care to.
I've been to so many of them andall over the country, from
Hawaii to you know Massachusettsand everywhere in between.
So I was traveling a lot.
I wouldn't say it was alwaysadventure, but it was certainly

(28:00):
always very eye-opening andloved like being on college
campuses talking to passionatecollege students.
That was more of my day job, Ifeel like, in my personal life
now.
Like that's where I really hadmy love of adventure of getting
out outside the US.
But um, I was traveling all thetime to talk with incredible

(28:20):
college students all around thecountry.

SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
Well, you certainly can't do that uh as consistently
as you did for as many years asyou did without having a lot of
passion and meaning behind yourwork.
It's like willpower will onlytake you so far.
It's like to genuinely be reallyinterested and engaged and
following your your passion, Ifeel like is so necessary when
you're in roles like that.

SPEAKER_02 (28:40):
Yeah.
And I feel like there's there'ssomething different too when you
work for a company with amission that you really care
about because every student,every incredible college student
that we met who decided to applyfor and then join Teach for
America was one more amazingteacher in a classroom of kids
like mine.
And so when you break it down tolike that is so tangible, it

(29:04):
made the work, yes, it was tonsof hard work.
I mean, teaching was by far thehardest job I've ever had, then
followed by recruiting at Teachfor America, because every
single person that you helpedrealize that this would be an
impactful path for them isanother person who could have
taught one of my students.
And in fact, there were peoplethat I knew from Teach for
America who did teach mystudents in later years, like in

(29:24):
eighth grade and then and likebefore.
And so you really started to seethat cycle.
And, you know, that was alwayswhat drove me.
I remember we were like in themidst of um COVID in 2020.
I just had my second baby, andso I was on maternity leave, and
obviously like everything wasshut down.
And it was fascinating becausemy very first class of

(29:44):
kindergartners were supposed tograduate high school in 2020.
And they were in New York and Iwas in LA.
The only reason I got to seethem graduate high school is
because their graduation washeld virtually during COVID.
And that, James, was theabsolute coolest experience of
my life to see my littlefive-year-olds that I taught to
read graduating high school andgoing to college.

(30:07):
And I'm even getting like chillsthinking about it now, and
keeping in touch with them andseeing them graduate, you know,
so many years later was justsuch a like circle moment for
me.
And that they didn't get therealone.
They got there with the supportof their families and their
communities and also theirteachers.
And if I or my team had any partof that, I mean, that's

(30:28):
something that that continues todrive me to this day.

SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
Is there anyone that was your student that you still
keep in touch with today?

SPEAKER_02 (30:36):
There's a few of them that I actually keep in
touch with over like socialmedia.
Um, there's one that invited meto the his high school
graduation, his name wasJonathan, and he ended up going
to um one of the SUNY schools,uh, the state university schools
in New York.
And he is graduated from collegenow.
And so he's the one who had moreTeach for America teachers in
eighth grade.

(30:56):
And I kind of, you know, kept intouch with him.
And he is the one who invited meto the graduation.
And I talked to him on the phoneafter he graduated, talked to
his dad.
Remember his dad, like like howum how helpful and supportive
his dad was of anything that Iwanted to do in terms of, you
know, supporting Jonathan inkindergarten.
And so that I mean, it was justamazing.

(31:17):
But yeah, there are some that Isee on social media.
I definitely am not able to keeptrack of all of them and would
love to hear how they're doing,but there's definitely a few
that I've kept in touch withthroughout the years.

SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
Well, I mean, that shows you real impact, right?
If Jonathan invited you to thegraduation, then you certainly
made a big impact.
Uh, and particularly at if you,you know, being a five-year-old,
the fact that he he reallyremembered, um, you know, that's
uh that's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Yeah.
I mean, but you think about it,like I don't know about you, but
I can remember my kindergartenteacher.
I remember all of my teachers,right?
Like all, you know, all of themain teachers.
And so when I think about, youknow, what is some of the most
impactful work that you can do?
I mean, we could do a wholeepisode on how I think teachers
should gain like so much morerespect and higher compensation
in this country, but those arereally the formative experience

(32:03):
that shaped all of us.
And so um it was it's justawesome to have been a part of
that.

SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
When you were growing up, did you have a
teacher that really made a bigimpact on you that I don't know,
maybe later in life you realizedyou wanted to essentially mirror
that person or just curious ifthere was somebody like that for
you.

SPEAKER_02 (32:24):
I had many of those.
Um, I would say the first onethat I can really remember was
in about fourth grade, where Ihad a teacher who her name was
Mrs.
Ross, and she was like anincredible writing teacher.
And she was the one who reallyunlocked writing for me and made
me really love it.
Like we wrote every day, like II kind of developed my love for

(32:44):
writing, um, my love fordescriptive writing in fourth
grade.
And that I think was one of thefoundational skills that I
really leaned on throughout therest of my educational career
and even now.
So yeah, there's I certainlyhave had many teachers I could
shout out, but I think that wasthe first one where I said that
was a pivot point in my life.
And because of her passion ofwriting, that instilled a

(33:04):
passion of writing for me.
And that's the sort of thingthat I think teachers can and do
do every day for their students.

SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
So now you're at Zapier, right?
And you're overwatching uh theway that you put it is it's
talent acquisition plus.
So you're overseeing talentacquisition.
I'm curious.
So when you made that transitionfrom Teach to America to Zapier,
uh of course, there's a lot ofoverlap in terms of down the

(33:33):
pipe recruiting motions, butit's a transition, different
type of organization.
And I'm wondering from when youlooked at the opportunity at
Zapier based on where you wereat that point in your life, and
when Zapier was considering youbased on your experience and
where the company was at thatpoint in time, I'm curious to
get your thoughts on in terms oftransitioning to Zapier from

(33:54):
Teach America.
Yeah, walk me through kind ofhow that how that came about and
why that was so important to youat that point in time.

SPEAKER_02 (34:05):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
So um, I was at Teach forAmerica until 2022, leading our
national recruitment team.
So huge, like team of over 200people.
Um, we were recruiting.
Oh my god, 200 people?
Yeah, yeah.
And wow, I had no idea.
It was at Teach for America, therecruitment team.
Um, so it recruiting was theproduct.

(34:26):
Like our core members who wewere trying to get into
classrooms was like the product.
So I often say, like, I ran arecruiting team, in some ways it
felt like I was running a salesteam, but it was almost like a
GM model.
Like the recruitment team atTeach for America was the
largest organization.
We were almost an organizationwithin the broader organization.
So I had, you know, many layersunder me, but we had our own LD,

(34:49):
our own finance, our ownmarketing, field marketing, own
events team.
So it was it was a phenomenalprofessional experience, a huge,
huge job, of course.
And I had been with Teach forAmerica for so long and was so
committed to it.
I also really started to just becompletely transparent, started
to feel like there wascompletely no boundaries between

(35:10):
my personal life and my worklife.
And that is because I think whenyou work for a company and a
mission that you care about sodeeply, it is very easy to blend
those things together.
Because, like I said, everystudent that we got to be a
teacher mattered.
It mattered to like a classroomof students who would or
wouldn't have a teacher the nextyear.
And so I just was incrediblylike, I would probably say

(35:33):
overcommitted.
And oh gosh, what's the word?
It's just, it wasall-encompassing.
It felt even more importantbecause my own daughter went to
a school where she had a teacherwho was a Teach for America alum
in kindergarten.
Her principal was a Teach forAmerica alum, and she goes to a
charter school in Los Angelesthat was started by Teach for
America alum.
So like I was, James, likepersonal life and professional

(35:55):
life, I was like all in Teachfor America and like every
sounds like it.
It was all when I say it was allencompassing, it was all
encompassing.
Um, and so I knew for myself, Iwas like, this feels really
important.
And I was about to kind of chartthe next wave of what our
strategic vision was for myteam.
And while I felt reallypassionate about that, I also
had an incredible team under me.

(36:15):
And I'm the type of leader,James, where I believe like my
job is to develop my people toeventually work myself out of a
job.
Like if you're if I'm doing yourjob right as a manager, like
that is your charge.
And I had an incredible vicepresident under me who he
himself was taught by coremembers.
So he had like lived this entireTeach for America experience who
was more than ready to take overthe reins.

(36:36):
And that was my push to be like,it is time for me to leave
because he's going to be able totake this team in a completely
different direction that even Icouldn't.
And I feel so strongly about thework we've done together that
like he is the person that Ireally want to pass the reins
to.
Um, and so that was that was it.
I felt time for me to move on toknow that like it needed to go

(36:57):
into the next generation ofleadership.
And then how I got to Zapier isactually really interesting
because I was still looking, Imean, mainly looking at
nonprofits, like looking atbecoming, you know, whether it's
an executive director or a chiefdiversity officer for like local
nonprofits are still in theeducation space.
And somebody that I had workedwith at Teach for America, who I

(37:17):
had the utmost respect for andwould follow off a cliff, um,
was the chief people officer atZapier, who's Brandon Samut.
So I had reached out to him oneday to ask him to mentor one of
my recruiters.
And um, he's such a lovelyperson.
He was like, sure, I'll do that.
I'm happy, I'm happy to talk tothem.
And um, I had mentioned to himthat I had been thinking that

(37:39):
was my last year at Teach forAmerica.
And then a few months later,because he was new to his role,
a few months later, he reachedback out and has like, Hey, you
mentioned you might beinterested in leaving Teach for
America.
We should talk.
Um, and at that point I haddecided that I was gonna leave
Teach for America.
So I was like, I don't know.
Like, I kind of want to stay inthe nonprofit, I kind of want to
stay in education.
But I, he's like, let's justtalk about it, let's see if it's

(38:01):
a good fit.
And I just fell in love withZapier.
I fell in love with his style ofleadership and felt like he was
the leader that I could learnfrom.
I also fell in love withZapier's mission, which is to
make automation work foreveryone.
And I saw that as the next layerof the work that I was doing to
democratize access to educationat Teach for America for kids.

(38:23):
Zapier was sitting on is waslike the most easily usable
tool, most accessible tool forno code, low-code automation.
And they were well known andbeloved already for people who
didn't have, you know, the extraengineers or the budget for like
extra, you know, folks in theirin their org to be able to do

(38:44):
things through automation thatthey wouldn't be able to do on
their own.
And so I saw this as like thismission about democratizing
access to technology that couldbe actually really life-changing
for people and for businesseswas a mission that just like
fascinated me.
And then I met people and I lovethe people and I love the
challenge.
And at that time, Zapier wasreally set to scale.
And since I had been working atsuch a large scale for some

(39:07):
time, I had that to offer.
Obviously, things change and youknow, a lot of tech companies
ended up not scaling as much.
But I think there was a Brandonreally saw this um applicability
between what I was doing atTeach for America and how that
could push Zapier in new ways.
I didn't come from a traditionaltech background.
I learned what the differencebetween like a front-end and a
back-end engineer was like threeweeks into the job.

(39:29):
I like, and I was very clearabout that.
I was like, I don't have atechnical background.
I, however, I really knowrecruiting.
I really understand how to leada team.
I really understand how tosupport, develop, and empower
managers and unify a team andset a vision and bring people
together.
And so I can bring that to thetable.
And to Brandon's credit, he sawthat and he was like, I think

(39:49):
that that can be applicablehere, even though you don't have
this traditional SaaS B2Bbackground.
Um, and so yeah, so I joinedZapier and have been there for
almost four years now,completely loving the different
types of challenges that we getto do and the ways that Brandon
and our CEO Wade have reallycreated this playground where we

(40:10):
can push the boundary, try newthings, and experiment.
So that is the things that Ilike doing, pushing ourselves,
always continually gettingbetter, trying new things,
getting curious about what elsewe could do.
And that is like 100% like myjam right now as we've entered
this AI era.

SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
So I had a feeling you were gonna say you got the
job through Teach for America.
Like I just knew it was gonna besomebody from We are everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 (40:34):
Teach for America alumni everywhere.
I actually meet a ton of folksin the talent space who have
done Teach for America in thetalent space in all sorts of
industries, but also folks allover, you know, even at Zapier.
We have a number of Teach forAmerica.
Alumni too.

SPEAKER_00 (40:47):
That's awesome.
So still drastically differentenvironment.
I well, maybe not actually,maybe lesser than I would
assume, right?
But different type of companygoing to category leading and
defining a tech company, right?
From the the nonprofit space,staying true to the name of the
show, breakthrough hiring, uh,breakthrough moments.
I'm wondering, like from aperspective, from in terms of

(41:10):
how you think about building andleading teams, has there been an
evolution of thought or whatwhat did you learn through that
transition?
Because you know, we've gonethrough a lot of what you've
learned throughout your years atTeach uh for America, but now at
Zapier, I'm just curious like,how has your perspective evolved
when it comes to being a leaderand building a TA solutions?

SPEAKER_02 (41:31):
That is such a good question.
I'll say a couple of things onthat front.
And yeah, it's such a goodquestion.
I mean, I think that myformative experiences going back
to my first year teachingkindergarten and then doing
recruiting at Teach for Americahave absolutely led me to be the
type of leader that I am here atZapier.
And then I'm so grateful andlucky to work under my manager

(41:53):
Brandon, who's now our chiefpeople and AI transformation
officer, and with an incredibleteam that allows us to keep kind
of pushing the needle for what'spossible.
But just to go back to myfoundations and sort of the
principles and values that Ihold is that I think I learned
from my first year in theclassroom that, you know, talent
is everywhere, brilliance iseverywhere.

(42:13):
Um, some people are more, youknow, have the means from
historic and systemic reasons,have more opportunities than
others.
But that doesn't mean that um,even though opportunity isn't
equally distributed, potentialis.
You can find potential anywhere.
And so much about teaching isabout identifying potential,
nurturing it, helping create anenvironment where that potential

(42:36):
and talent can thrive.
And so that people can be theirbest selves and the best version
of themselves and pushthemselves to take on challenges
and learn new things more thanthey ever even thought possible.
That's what I did.
That's what I strove to do as akindergarten teacher.
And then when I was inrecruitment at Teach for
America, I was talking tocollege students who were like
on their way to med school orlaw school or um, you know,

(42:58):
honestly, in some cases,whatever their parents wanted
them to do, and or were feelinga little bit unmoored, like they
weren't sure what path theywanted to go in.
And again, it was that beautifulprivilege that I had as a the
recruiter to say, you know,based on everything that you
care about, your strengths, whatyou want to do, what you don't
want to do, what gives youenergy, you know, how can how

(43:18):
could be a teacher in aclassroom for two years be the
way that you want to make yourimpact?
And how can this be a reallynatural fit for you?
And so again, it was likeidentifying incredible
potential, helping people seethat in themselves, helping
people get to an environment andthe supports that they need to
be really phenomenal and doincredible things, right?
So it's it didn't change when Iwent into tech.

(43:40):
I think the difference at Zapieris that Zapier is like a really
hot company.
You know, people, we getthousands of applications.
And I think one of the thingsthat I really loved is pushing
my team to think outside of justlike even what are the
traditional profiles that welook for, but how do we really
think and suss out potential?
How do we really ensure that inonboarding and in their first 90

(44:02):
days they can thrive, that theyhave the right supports in
place, that they have themanager, their managers are
enabled to be able to developtheir talent.
So again, it's all about thetalent spectrum.
It's the exact same thing asteaching kindergarten is how do
you identify, define, nurture,develop talent?
Like that, I feel like hasbecome a real passion of mine,

(44:24):
and especially at theintersection of ensuring that
all people from all backgroundshave the opportunity to be
really successful in ourenvironment.

SPEAKER_00 (44:31):
So, what does 2026 look like for you?
What goals do you haveprofessionally, personally?
Like, what are you looking toaccomplish this year?

SPEAKER_02 (44:41):
Yeah.
So, I mean, besides, you know,we're hiring like crazy here at
Zapier.
Um, it's really exciting becauseZapier has been leading, I
think, I personally think humblyin the tech space on AI
transformation of our entirecompany.
Um, and so a lot of my role inthat is really understanding how

(45:02):
to transform the beginning ofthe employee life cycle in that
way.
So I know it's very popularright now for all companies to
be like, we're undergoing an AItransformation in 2026, but
Zapier has really, over the pastfew years, like put real
infrastructure, tactics,concrete strategies in order to
make that happen.
And we also share that.
I mean, we we share that broadlyin the world.

(45:23):
Like Zapier, again, we're verybig on democratizing access to
information and technology.
So we share a lot of what we'redoing.
Um, but to get back to yourquestion is like what I'm really
excited about in 2026 is reallymoving my team for what I would
call adoptive use of AI totransformational use of AI.
And what I mean by that is like,I think a lot of companies now,

(45:46):
um, and I say a lot ofcompanies, I mean in the tech
space, but I also think, youknow, across the board in every
industry, are trying to figureout how do we utilize AI to
become more productive, to savetime, to give people back time.
All of that is really important.
Like personal productivity, youknow, saving 10% or 50% of your
time by using technology so thatyou can focus on the things that

(46:08):
you as a human do best, veryimportant.
We're still gonna do that.
However, I think there's anotherlayer to unlock for AI
transformation, is where youactually start to determine and
question who's doing the work,how is the work being done, and
how do you make this AI first sothat you're actually
transforming how work gets donein this new age of AI.

(46:29):
And so, for example, what I meanby that is like we've had this
traditional hiring process fordecades, right?
You have an application, peopleapply to that application,
recruiter reviews theapplication, recruiter decides
who to move people forward, youknow, like things like that.
You look at a resume.
Way back you used to look atcover letters, you know?
So we've had sort of this likeway of operating.

(46:49):
And I think that's just about toget like completely blown up,
James.
And I think it should be, youknow, I mean, there's so many
different possibilities that weare discovering every day as
technology gets better of how wecan make the recruiting process,
the hiring process moreaccessible, more equitable, more
inclusive, um, gain highersignal, you know, focus on

(47:11):
connection and not all of theadmin stuff.
There's so much that we can doto revolutionize um the
recruiting process right now.
So a very long answer to yourquestion.
That is my charge in 2026, tolike figure out how to equip my
team to do that and build theirAI fluency skills, which I
believe are the skills of thefuture, and also ensure that we
are on the forefront oftransforming our recruiting

(47:34):
model in talent to ensure thatwe are ready for the next
generation of what talentacquisition and what hiring even
looks like.
And then sharing that reallybroadly with the talent
community is a major personalfocus of mine this year to share
more, to learn more, to talk tomore talent leaders about what
they're doing and what we canbrainstorm and jam on ideas for.

(47:57):
So very, very excited aboutthat.

SPEAKER_00 (47:59):
So where do you start, right?
When I'm saying transformationand talent acquisition, there's
there's a lot of places, right?
And this is something that I'm,of course, fascinated with.
And uh, you know, I've had a lotof really interesting
conversations with people abouttechnology shifts and in our
space.
But when you look at Zap yearand you look at the setup of

(48:21):
your team, where do you start?
How are you going to prioritizewhat to do first in AI
transformation for this year?

SPEAKER_02 (48:29):
Yeah.
Well, I think that the the waythat the talent landscape has
been changing with AI is sort offorcing some obvious pain points
that we just have to tackle.
I think a lot of companies areseeing this, but we have the
largest volumes of applications,inbound applications that we've
seen ever.
Right.
It's like because people allhave, you know, AI platforms

(48:50):
that allow them to apply forhundreds of jobs a day.
And every single applicationcomes in that looks almost
perfect.
You know, it's like exactlymatches the job description.
Their resume exactly matcheswhat we're looking for.
And so it's a ton of noise forour recruiters to wait through.
And we're not gonna be able tostaff up by like a hundred extra
recruiters to, you know, tacklethe volume of application.

(49:11):
So that's one, that's forcingour hand of like, we have to
have a solution there.
We also have a lot of fraudulentcandidates, especially because
we're a global remote company.
Zapier is 800 people in 42countries, fully remote.
We'll be remote forever.
We don't even have aheadquarters.
And so we're kind of like anideal organization for people to

(49:31):
target if they want to be um,you know, lean on the side of
fraud, if if you know there'ssome malicious intent there.
And so we deal with, and there'ssuch a spectrum of fraud.
There's like just embellishmentthat people have been doing for
years on their resume to likeactual malicious intent, deep
fakes, fraudulent folks, peoplewho are trying to get into
Zapier to hack the system.

(49:52):
Like there's a huge spectrum.
So we're dealing with that too.
And that in the market is alsovery competitive.
So, what I mean there is like,where do you start?
And we've tried to really beclear on not just like jumping
to shiny technology fortechnology's sake, um, not just
like saying, oh, this is thecool new AI tool that we can
use, but really going back tolike, what's our philosophy of
talent?

(50:12):
Where do we believe there shouldbe a human in the loop where
maybe there also doesn't have tobe?
Um, and then what are the painpoints that we have?
And so where we start are likewith some of these biggest pain
points, the things that suck upmy recruiter's time, the things
that are not a good use of theirunique talent and their human
skills, but the things that arejust creating a lot of noise in
the system.

(50:33):
So I'm very focused first on howare we figuring out what's
happening at top of the funnel?

SPEAKER_00 (50:38):
There's a few different approaches to this,
right?
It's there's definitely toolsout there, products that can
help skim through a database orlarge applicant pools and
surface through multiple datasources the applications that
are most likely to uh berelevant.
Friend of mine, Steve Bartello,runs Gem, that they're building

(51:01):
that, right?
That's one they also have asourcing product, but they have
the ability to do that.
But then there's tools out therethat are doing AI screening,
essentially doing the knockoutquestions, uh, so to speak, to
essentially give everyone aninterview and to help deal with
the massive influx of inboundapplications.

(51:23):
I'm not sure if I'm missingdifferent solutions there for
the top of funnel, but there areso many solutions.

SPEAKER_02 (51:28):
I think I heard a stat recently that, like, um,
and this don't quote me on theseexact numbers, but something
like there's been at least 40%growth in the past like six to
nine months of just HR tech ingeneral.
There are so many solutions tolike all of these problems.

SPEAKER_00 (51:44):
Yeah, it's kind of it's like you know, back in like
pre-COVID and even I guess postand like 2021, it's like for a
decade, it just seems like wewere getting slammed with all
these new revenue tools.
Like, oh my god, like you know,500 products doing the same
thing.
And it now it seems like in thetalent acquisition space, we're
starting to see a lot moreplayers enter the space.

SPEAKER_02 (52:06):
Absolutely.
More players are entering thespace, and then you have some
trusted players who are alsobuilding their own add-ons.
So, like you have, you know,Bright Hire now has agentic
recruiters and Code Signal hasagentic recruiters, and like
everybody is building, as theyshould be, right?
Everyone is building sort ofthese new AI features and
supports on top of their tools.

(52:28):
I think as a talent leader, it'sit's very overwhelming.
The amount of emails I get to dodemos of every like new tool
possibly out there are just somassive, and I just would not
have the ability to really tovet them all.
And I also think the technologyis changing so quickly.
It's like what is great todaymight not be the market leader
in six months from now.
So it's changing very fast.

(52:48):
I will say that where I focus onour team is regardless of what
our tech stack is, uh, and thisis obviously the benefit of
being at Zapier, is the AIorchestration layer is, I think,
a piece that all talent leadersneed to focus on in order to
actually go through an AItransformation because you can
have, you know, your ATS andyour HRIS and like every other

(53:10):
tool have their own AI features.
But unless they're able to talkto each other and share data and
you're able to create workflowswhere that data can then be
accessed from all of those toolsinto like workflows the things
that you need, you're kind ofjust spreading yourself really
thin.
So, like the AI orchestrationlayer, I think is something
where I encourage all talentleaders to look at to figure out

(53:34):
how to unlock sort of that nextlevel of productivity and then
that next level oftransformation.

SPEAKER_00 (53:38):
That's the hardest part, right?
I think it's um, I was actuallyspeaking with another talent
leader that's implementing anall-in-one ATS, HRIS solution.
And we were talking about, ofcourse, like the orchestration
and the integration of thesedifferent products into one
seamless workflow, right?
That's the dream.

(53:59):
I said I said it with the withthe attitude because I'm like,
I've been sold that like dreamso many times.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's what that's what thatwas, by the way.
Um, but it's like I guess somecompanies do it well, and
sometimes I guess I don't wantto say their name publicly, but
I onboarded a revenue toolthat's very well known, and it
was an all-in-one solution,which we were looking at from a

(54:19):
data and efficiency perspective,as of course compelling, right?
Because it can manage the entirefunnel from inbounding to
outbounding to managing dealsthrough process and sequencing
and uh even light CRMfunctionality.
Uh, and they had initiallystarted as a very specific point
solution in the data andsequencing kind of outreach

(54:43):
space.
And now they do it all.
And so it's like, okay, let'sgive them a shot because it
looked really good.
And then we get we implement,right?
And then it turns out that themost of the products that
weren't their initial points,like best in class point
solution.
Oh my god, like they just theyfall apart left and right.

SPEAKER_02 (55:01):
Yeah, and then you have to build back on top of it
because you want like yeah,exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (55:05):
So now I'm just I'm buying other point solutions and
then just more so limiting theirscope again.
I mean, I just I'm curious howare you evaluating those?
Like when you're thinking aboutdata orchestration and workflow
orchestra, you know, these inintegrations seamlessly when it
comes to to data and tools, andof course, like Zapier,
hopefully, hopefully, you know,potentially could help in some
cases.
But um, you know, how do youidentify whether to go like best

(55:27):
in class point solution versusall in one?
And do you have any thoughts oneither or yeah?

SPEAKER_02 (55:33):
Well, I do think, you know, depending on your
business, there's a practicalaspect of doing an all-in-one
usually saves money and admin.
So I don't disregard that.
We we moved a few years ago or ayear and a half ago to like a
bit of an all-in-one, ran intosome of the similar problems
that you did as well, um, andhave been building on top of it.
But you know, it did create costsavings, which at the time are

(55:55):
really important.
So I'm not disregarding that.
As a talent leader, um, I willgo for best in class every time
because I think it is, I wouldnot put a product in front of my
candidates that is not best inclass.
I'll give you an example.
So um we are piloting andexperimenting with agentic
recruiters.
And I think even eight monthsago, I would have said, oh, the
technology is not there yet.

(56:16):
I don't feel good about this,like, you know, and then the
technology has improved sorapidly.
And so when we are starting tofigure out what is the agentic
recruiter tool that we're gonnause, we demoed a ton of them and
we picked the one that I thoughtwas absolutely the most
sophisticated from a technologystandpoint, that it would offer
the best candidate experience.
And which one is that?
Sorry.
I use we use Ezra, Ezra AI Labs.

SPEAKER_00 (56:39):
Okay, I'll look into them.
I've not heard of them.

SPEAKER_02 (56:41):
Yeah, Ezra is fantastic.
Um, and Ophier, who's the CEO,is is is awesome.
And I feel like they reallyfocus on ensuring that their
product is the most technicallyadvanced that it can be from
like uh, you know, a userexperience, also a you know,
recruiter setup experience, butspecifically for the user.
I was just looking at feedbackthis morning of really great

(57:02):
feedback from candidates thatwas saying, like, this was a lot
more natural than I thought.
And like I actually got to askit questions.
And so um, all to say is liketechnology and vendors are all
out there, but to go back toyour original question, you
might not be able to avoid doingan all-in-one if like budget is
a real constraint.
Um, but Ezra is actually a veryaffordable solution in this

(57:22):
case.
And for us, um, to me, Iwouldn't want to put anything
else in front of candidates.
Candidates are already weary ofagentic recruiters.
They are, you know, already havelots of thoughts um, you know,
about if they want to talk to AIor recruiter.
Um surprisingly, many candidateslove it.
They like would rather talk toan agent than talk to a
recruiter right away.
Um, but so I wouldn't putanything less than what I think

(57:44):
is the best in front of them.
So that's how I think about it.
And then again, I think thatgoes back to an orchestration
tool.
And again, Zapier is like themost connected AI orchestration
platform.
We connect with over 8,000 appsthat people use in work.
Um, so it's not just for HRpurposes, but for RevOps or
technology or, you know, financeor marketing or whatever.

(58:06):
But again, for us, it mattersless what those tools are
because we know we canorchestrate them and integrate
them all through Zapierworkflows.
And so we can have best in classtools that then we fit together
by using an orchestration layer.
So Zapier isn't like astandalone tool that you have,
it's like sort of something thatsits on top of all the tools

(58:28):
that you have to ensure thatthey all work together.

SPEAKER_00 (58:31):
Love it.
Okay, cool.
That's really helpful context.
And I appreciate you sharingyour thoughts on this topic.
I would love to get a sense tojust to kind of progress in our
conversation to um who you are,who you want to become
professionally and personally,as a again, we talked about like
as a whole human being, right?

(58:52):
Just uh even beyond your career,your current role.
But I mean, yeah, professionallyis a big part of that for us
too, right?
It's like our life's work, it'swhat we spend a lot of time
doing.
But I think again, for the thefolks tuning in, uh, other
people that are in, whether it'slike talent leadership roles or
executive leaders in othercapacities, or folks that are
trying to level up, I thinkeverybody, I guess my point is

(59:13):
that most people that areengaged with this show are
people that are constantlystretching, growing, wanting to
be the best version ofthemselves.
And often folks that are talentacquisition leaders, it's they
might be on a great team, butthey're like the only one that's
like actually in their role.
Yeah.
Like when you get to your level,when you're in your prime and
you've accomplished a lot, it'snot like you get to where you
are.
We're just not like, okay, well,we're just gonna stop now.

(59:36):
Like we no longer want to growand try to become the next best
version of ourselves.
So when it comes to you, I'mjust curious, like when you
think about your own growth andwho you want to become, what
really stands out to you at thispoint in your life?

SPEAKER_02 (59:49):
Yeah.
Well, I think I should caveatthis.
It's like the most importantthing to me is being an
incredible role model for my twodaughters and being like really
present.
I feel like I had to say that.
So it's like, you know, likejust a caveat, especially
because they will definitelylisten to it and they're always
like, you should mention us inyour podcast.
Um yeah, shout out, shout out toto Emerson and Ensler.

(01:00:09):
Um, no, but uh I feel likethere's a piece of that though
that's really important is that,you know, as their mom, I want
to ensure that I'm setting amodel for what it looks like to
be a mom who can be a great mom,I hope, but also really
passionate about their careerand continually learning and
growing and being intellectuallystimulated by their career as

(01:00:31):
well.
And so um, you know, when I wasleading the team at Teach for
America, I felt like that thatcould have been my prime.
Like I could have done that jobfor the next 20 years.
It's a hard job, it's an awesomeopportunity, it's challenging.
I could have done that forever.
But for For me, I really getantsy when I don't have a brand
new challenge in front of me.

(01:00:51):
Like I think, you know, youasked me about my childhood, and
I feel like it kind of goes backto that why I always had so many
different interests and why Ialways was like kind of pushing
myself is I think that there'salways something new to unlock.
And my manager knows this.
If I feel like it's justbusiness as usual, and you know,
there's not any bigger points ofstimulation or challenge, then I

(01:01:13):
start to get a little bit bored.
And so I in the future, Ireally, really want to continue
to be challenged.
I know that sounds very cliche,but I'm constantly searching for
ways to push myself to the pointwhere um I'm on my like
developmental cliff and then I'mable to get over that, like
where it feels uncomfortable,where it feels totally out of my

(01:01:35):
realm.
Um, I think AI does that a lotfor me.
I'm always, I constantly feelbehind.
I constantly feel like I'm notdoing enough.
I think a lot of people feelthat way.
But that is so motivating to mebecause there's just so much
more to learn out there.
And there's so, there's such anew level of this again, next
generation of what hiring lookslike that is just waiting to be

(01:01:57):
unlocked.
And so when I think about who Iwant to be in my career, I want
to be somebody who, you know,I'm I'm the person who like I
like to put my head down and dothe work and let the work speak
for itself.
Um, I don't love always beingout there and and uh being in
the spotlight.
I've been trying to push myselfto share more because I know I
get a lot back from the talentcommunity when I share and then

(01:02:19):
people share ideas with me andwe can just grow together.
Um, but I really feel like Ilike to just keep pushing to
find, you know, what is the nextlevel of unlock for my team, our
industry, talent as a whole.
And I hope that any you knowimpact that I have is the impact
of like being on the forefrontof pushing that then allows

(01:02:41):
everybody else to learn andeverybody else to grow together.
Does that make sense?
I feel like it does.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:46):
It makes a lot of sense.
It's like the what'd you callit?
A developmental cliff.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:52):
So tell me, tell me more about that.
I I it's a cool phrase.
I want to like learn like moreabout what exactly that means to
you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:59):
One of my most amazing managers who was the
head of the recruitment team,and I was his chief of staff,
Josh Andriksen.
I worked under him for a numberof years before I took over the
recruitment team.
He would always name when he wason his developmental cliff in
like a very positive way.
And it was, it's amazing becausehe was like the head of the
team, he was the SVP and thenthe EVP.

(01:03:21):
And the vulnerability that hewould always share of like,
gosh, even I'm learning.
Like, I don't know what to do.
Like, we're gonna have to figurethis out, was so powerful to me
as you know, somebody who feltlike he was such a great mentor.
Um, and it really challenged meto always kind of be at that
developmental cliff.
I very much feel like you're notreally learning unless you feel

(01:03:43):
a little bit uncomfortable withwhat you're doing, that like it
has to be a little hard.
Like you have to kind of feellike you're gonna fail.
Um, I used to kind of chalk thatup to um, especially being a
woman of color and you know,it's industry, like a little bit
of imposter syndrome.
I think that could be part ofit.
But I also think that feelinguncomfortable, it's not
necessarily a slam dunk, is likea really uncomfortable but good

(01:04:06):
place to be in, right?
Because then you know you'reactually really growing.
Um, and so I love that phrase ofdevelopmental cliff because it
just for me visually is like,oh, this could go really poorly,
or I could really get over that.
And so how you learn, how youget through it, how you take
away lessons, whether yousucceeded or failed, I think is

(01:04:27):
a really big piece of the growthmindset and the learning that I
try to instill in myself, in mychildren, in my team.
Um, and why I kind of can neversettle for just like business as
usual.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:39):
I think one thing that defines a lifelong learner
and somebody who's constantlypushing and stretching is they
associate like a sense ofexcitement and and fun to
reaching that developmentalcliff or that point where it
feels like you could fail.
There's somehow like some mentalassociation of like that that is

(01:05:03):
like exciting.
And I think for some people it'sit's not exciting, right?
Like that I feel, and I'm notgonna get on the show and like
try to act like I know exactlyhow to shift for folks that are
you know hesitant or or kind ofscared to do that.
But I think one of the mostimportant things is to develop a
psychology where stretching andgrowing and being uncomfortable

(01:05:28):
is like almost your comfort zonein a way.
Like that's just so younormalize it.
Yeah, you normalize it, yeah.
You normalize it, make theuncomfortable comfortable.
Like that's just like, yeah,that's just like where I where I
live.
Um, and it's it's like beingreally excited about that.
Like to me, it's it's like thedelta between where I want to be
and where I'm at that inspiresme.

(01:05:49):
Like it's the gap.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:51):
And well, and I would say it's also for at least
for me, and tell me if this istrue for you, it's also knowing
that you will get through it.
And I think, you know, my teamwill probably tell you.
So, one, I think if my team hadto say, like, what are the
things that could be annoyingabout Tracy as a leader is one,
I am always pushing to getbetter.
It's like, it's like, okay, wedid it now.

(01:06:13):
What can we do to up level?
Okay, what can we do to up levelnow?
Okay, what can we do to up levelnow?
Um, there if to much to theirchagrin, I'm sure they don't
always love that, but um, it iscertainly our personality.
The other thing that they wouldsay is like when we are in our
toughest moments of challenge, Iusually try to make a point
because I truly believe it tosay, wow, this is a little bit
fun though, isn't it?

(01:06:33):
Like we are just hit withchallenge from every side.
This feels messy, this feelsstressful, this feels
overwhelming, but like it's alittle bit fun.
And like we're gonna have a goodtime figuring this out.
Because what could be like very,I don't know, like masochistic
about that, I don't know, it'sjust like I find like when I am
in like the deepest challengeand I do not know how to get

(01:06:53):
myself out of it, is when I findthe most joy in like pulling
back, getting intellectuallycurious, thinking outside the
box, asking for help for sure.
Like I'm not a hero, like askingfor help, asking for guidance,
mentorship, all of that too.
But then like being able tofigure out the strategy or the
way out of that and problemsolving that.
To me, there's such like a funaspect of that that as a

(01:07:17):
professional, um, we're lucky tohave those sorts of challenges.
And so um, you know, the lasttime that my team felt like
really overwhelmed, I do think Isaid to people, but like, this
is gonna be fun.
And I think they were like, it'sthey're like, okay, it's not fun
yet.
It's gonna be fun when it'sover.
And I'm like, yes, it will beover at some point, and it will
be fun knowing that how we gotthere and how we worked

(01:07:37):
together, how we figured it out,how we problem solved, how we
grew.
Like, that's gonna be reallysatisfying.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:43):
Yeah, and I think some some people just need that
assurance too.
I think some people can reallydo that for themselves.
It's like that's your psychologyand and belief system, right?
About that essentially enablesyou to work through those
difficult things.
And, you know, I I think thatthere's there's a process,
right?
There's a process to focusing onthe solution to not let it be

(01:08:10):
completely consuming to beanxious, right?
There's a healthy way of likepushing and stretching and not
being uncomfortable.
But I'm sure everybody at onepoint or another has struggled
with that turning into anxietyor feeling like maybe either
biting off too much so theycould chew, or um, and so I I
mean you touched on it, right?
But it's like when you're ateacher by nature, and it's like

(01:08:30):
when you're thinking you gavesome examples of when you're in
those spaces, like what you doto make it fun, and specifically
how you close the gap anddevelop the way that you need
to.
Can you walk us through more oflike your process?
So it's like when you're goingthrough a big shift or where you
have to level up, likepsychologically, how do you

(01:08:51):
approach it?
Put on the teacher hat.
How would you kind of coachsomebody for getting
comfortable, having fun, andwhat to do?
So maybe it feels a little lessscary stepping into that because
they there's some kind of planor things that they can do to
help them through it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:06):
I mean, I think there's so many parallels to
being a teacher.
It's why I often say like beinga teacher is one of the hardest
but best things you can do earlyin your career, whether that's
being a teacher in the classroomor taking on a sort of like
teaching sort of role, becauseit forces you to understand how
to break things down in a waythat feels manageable for
somebody who might feeloverwhelmed or who feel like

(01:09:29):
it's impossible, or who feellike they don't, they can't do
it, right?
Like you take a I taughtkindergarten.
So taking five-year-olds fromnot reading to reading at the
time for them feels impossible.
They just see words, words,letters, like maybe I don't even
recognize letters.
And then by the end of the year,they're reading.
That feels like an impossibleshift for them.

(01:09:49):
Um, and so all to say is I thinkthe skills are the same.
When I am in the midst of a hugechallenge and I'm trying to
support a team member um tocoach them through that, some of
the biggest things that I thinkabout is like one, they have
subject matter expertise thateven I don't have, maybe because
they're closest to the work orthey have a perspective and that

(01:10:09):
they need to find power in that.
And two, they have a lot morecontrol than they might feel.
Um, yes, there are things out ofour control.
There's also things that we docontrol.
One of them is our mindset, butalso it's just like, you know,
some certain steps.
And so it's important to likesay my first kind of instinct,
because I'm a problem solver.
So um I have to have my teamtell me if they just want me to
listen and be like a listeningear, because otherwise I'll be

(01:10:31):
like, okay, great, here's whatwe should do, or here's what,
here's, let's work this out.
Um, I jumped to problem solving.
But with that, it's like, let'sbreak this down.
What are the different steps andthe components and the risks
that we're seeing here?
What are the things that we havecontrol over?
What are the things that wedon't have control over, but we
could influence control over?
What are the steps we can takeright now?

(01:10:51):
We don't need to boil the ocean.
I think that's a lot of times Isay that to my team.
We're not boiling the oceanright now.
What are the things that arewithin our control that we can
take action on that will lead tomoving the ball down the court,
moving us forward?
Let's start there and then let'sstart to like build off of that.
So being able to share, here'sthe vision of how we're gonna
get from A to Z and let's startfrom just A to B first.

(01:11:15):
And like let's set thatdirection.
I think the best leaders setvision to inspire, but they set
direction for very clear,concrete guidance.
And so when we're in achallenging situation, and why I
think it's fun is because it allcomes down to problem solving
and in some ways just likesystems and operations and
little baby steps that lead upto something bigger.

(01:11:35):
And so I think when people feeloverwhelmed, you have to take
the step back.
What are we trying toaccomplish?
Again, what's within ourcontrol?
What's not within our control?
What are the steps we can takeinitially?
And let's just start working itfrom there.
It's better to do something thanto say, oh, it's too
overwhelming.
I can't do anything.
Um, and by the way, I havegotten so much incredible

(01:11:56):
coaching from my executivecoach, from mentors and managers
that I feel like at this pointin my career, I can lead team
members through that reallyconfidently.
I get overwhelmed, I getstressed.
I just want to be clear.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:07):
Like, of course, that happens to me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:09):
And I have to coach myself, be like, okay, Tracy,
you feel overwhelmed, take astep back and run through that
same thought process for myselftoo.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:16):
Yeah, I think just to slow down on a couple of
things that I've noticed, it'slike, so you have what you share
with your team, but it's also Iwas like paying attention to how
you communicate with yourselfbecause that that's also like
what other people could becommunicating to themselves too.
I think that there really issomething to jumping straight to
problem solving.
I think allowing yourself to dothat by also accepting like you

(01:12:38):
may not have all the answersnow.
So you're trying to solve aproblem without having the
complete equation.
It's um, you don't necessarilylike you have your vision, the
outcome you're trying toachieve.
You just gotta know likesometimes the next step.
Doesn't mean you have the wholething figured out.
But I kind of um an analogy thatsort of worked for me is you
know, sometimes you're walkingdown like kind of a foggy road

(01:12:58):
with low visibility.
You may you know the vision, butyou maybe can't see the entire
map.
But you know, you take one stepor two steps or ten steps,
you're gonna be able to see alittle further.
And sometimes that's just howlife is.
It's your your vision, your lineof sight is only so far
sometimes, but the more youprogress, the further you can
see uh to an extent.

(01:13:19):
So I think that that's importantand just being accepting of like
that's often what life is.
You hold on to the vision, butyou're flexible with your
approach and you you getstarted.
Um, but you talked about jumpinginto problem solving.
Um, I think is is is importantlike to spend uh you know a lot
of time just thinking throughand and taking action, and then

(01:13:41):
also coaching yourself.
I think people mightunderestimate just those types
of conversations that you havewith yourself because it almost
seems like so simplistic attimes, like you know, just kind
of give yourself a pet talk orlike help yourself remember the
principles.
But sometimes like success, or Ithink a better word for success
is progress.
Yeah, really just comes down tobasic principles, like the

(01:14:04):
values and principles we evenlearned as kids.
Those things are typically whatcan see you through.
It's usually not rocket science,but sometimes it's just like
reminding yourselves, likecoaching yourself, having this
bias toward action, acceptingthat there's uncertainty, but
just like focusing on thesolution, taking action on the
solution, and and staying inkind of like a positive frame of

(01:14:27):
mind.
Or I think people have to becareful with being realistic
too, because I think most peoplethat call themselves realists
are actually pessimists.
Not all the time.
You don't have to see betterthan what it is, but don't see
it the worst than what it iseither, right?
It's not the end of the world.
And I think there's also beentimes where I've like
intentionally thought aboutokay, well, what is like the
worst case scenario?
Let's talk through that, right?

(01:14:48):
Yeah, let's send it through likelet's take like the fear out of
that and kind of unpack it.
And the reality is like, okay,if we if we don't quit,
something's gonna happen,something's gonna break.
We're gonna keep knocking ondoors.
You know, you knock on athousand doors, you just need
one to open.
Yeah, it's just kind of likethat mindset of like, I think
just kind of coaching yourselfand looking for resources,

(01:15:09):
focusing on human psychology,not underestimating the power of
your own mindset and just takingaction in moments of
uncertainty, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
And also knowing that you don'thave to do it alone and that
there's people that can helppeople, you know, in your
organization, up the chain, downthe chain, like you can gain
perspective from anywhere.
And so I yeah, I just think yousaid it beautifully.
It's like bias towards action,what's in your locus of control,
taking, you know, a few stepsforward is better than those

(01:15:38):
steps being perfect, just tolead into your analogy.
Like you might like learn thatin that foggy atmosphere, you
went down the wrong path.
Okay, you learned that.
Turn around, go back, try itagain.
But at least you now know that'snot the path, right?
And so, like, and there'slearning and there's success in
that too, um, of knowing youtried something, it didn't work.
Okay, great, you're not gonnatry that again.

(01:15:59):
And that is like gold, I think.
I think there's so, so muchvalue in any lessons learned.
And I think when you take thatapproach, you're less likely to
feel worried about failing.
And you're more likely to feelworried if you're just not
learning enough as quickly asyou possibly can.
And so if that's yourmotivation, it's like, I just
need to get out there, I need totry things, I need to learn,

(01:16:22):
then that's a lot easier of astep to take than saying I have
to put something out therethat's gonna be perfect.
And just to be clear, like I'vestruggled with this a lot in my
life.
I think when I was younger, Iwas like, you know, that typical
kind of like perfectionist,everything needs to be a hundred
percent.
And I've had to over time, one,because my bandwidth is only so
much and I have so much to do.

(01:16:43):
Like, I've had to learn, like,it's okay to take a B minus on
that.
It's okay to take, you know, a Cplus on that.
I have to learn to prioritizeand make choices and prior and
things like that.
Like that comes with experience,that comes with ability to make
great judgment.
But with that also means thatlike not everything I'm gonna
put out is gonna be perfect andthat's okay.
But now is better than perfect.

(01:17:03):
If I wait until it's perfect, Imight never get anything done.
Uh, and I might be afraid totry.
But if I do it now, I might getreally tough feedback.
But okay, that at least allowsme to like keep moving forward
versus wait, ship it in a month,maybe in two months.
It's not perfect yet.
Maybe wait three months, andthen you're just really stalled.
And so um, that's like a valueat Zapier, too, is just default

(01:17:24):
to action.
Um, now is better than perfect.
Get something out there that youcan learn from as soon as
possible.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:32):
Yeah, that's 100%, 100% true.
Well, look, Tracy, this has beenan incredible conversation.
I've really enjoyed getting toknow you, and I know our
audience has too.
So you got a fan today.
I'm a fan of uh um uh yeah, I'mI'm really impressed with uh
with you, and and I'm lookingforward to seeing like what you

(01:17:54):
do in the future too.
You're always welcome back onthe show.
But yeah, thank you for joiningus today.
I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:00):
I appreciate the invitation, James.
This has been really fun.
Thanks so much.

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