February 3, 2026 • 63 mins
Lance Sapera, Global Head of Talent at Barracuda, shares how growing up in a Navy family and learning from John Wooden's Pyramid of Success shaped his practical, people-first approach to leadership. From flight deck rules like aviate, navigate, communicate, to modern cybersecurity hiring, he shows how empathy with standards, long-term pipelines, and disciplined systems compound to build sustainable, high-trust teams.
Books mentioned:
- Pyramid of Success by John Wooden
- Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell
- David and Goliath by Malcolm Gladwell
Podcast mentioned: EP 134 with Amit Yoran
Story behind aviate, navigate, communicate: 40:36 - 44:57
Connect with host James Mackey on LinkedIn!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Thank you everyone for tuning in.
We got Lance Sapira here today.
He's currently in the role ofglobal head of talent at
Barracuda.
And then previously he's workedat some pretty cool companies
like Symantec and Intuit aswell.
Lance, we're really lookingforward to learning more about
your background and yourjourney.
Thanks for doing this with us.
We appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
It's great to be with you, James.
As you and I talked about alittle bit, I appreciate the
opportunity to just bereflective and think about some
of these things.
And I've listened to a number ofyour episodes, and you just you
facilitate a fun conversation.
And I've learned a ton in thenumber of episodes that I've
listened to after you and Ifirst started talking.
(01:27):
So I'm looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah, me too.
And uh I think you were justtalking about your mug you got
there.
You said it's from Ted Lasso.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
I got my Ted Lasso Believe mug.
It just aligns with my wholelife.
I think anybody would tell you,going back to a kid, uh, my dad,
my whole family were big sportsfans in particular.
Um, had the chance to see a UCLAbasketball game as a kid when
John Wooden was still coaching.
And I just I found this theme ofwatching coaches who were great
(01:59):
leaders and and paying attentionto leadership started.
And I actually, my dad got me acopy of John Wooden's signed
copy of John Wooden's Pyramid ofSuccess, which I think most
people who've watched all of TedLasso, it's in the locker room
on the wall.
One of my kids grew up andactually went to UCLA.
They now have the pyramid ofsuccess.
(02:20):
So we're passing it on throughthe family.
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
That's really cool.
So what is the uh I actuallyhaven't heard of this, the
pyramid of success.
I'm I'm looking it up now.
Um so coaching philosophies,essentially.
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
Uh yeah, some of it's coaching, but a lot of it
is about what can make you greaton the basketball court can also
help you be great in life, um,in whatever your role is,
friend, sibling, parent, um,husband, wife, um, partner.
And so I just find that it'sjust always been something that
(02:56):
um aligned for me and alsohelping me try to be really good
at home and really good at workand really good with you know
people that uh you'reinteracting with.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
So this is something that you read when you were you
were a kid, right?
You said your dad got you thisbook when you were about how old
were you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
Oh gosh, um I was probably, I don't know, 10 or
12, maybe when I saw UCLA andand John Wooden coaching.
The pyramid of success probablycame shortly after that when I
was a teenager.
Um I can't remember how my dadgot the chance to get a signed
copy, but he gave it to me and Ijust kept it.
(03:38):
And then all of a sudden, whenyou've got a one of your your
kids ends up going to UCLA, it'slike they need to have this.
And so it's it's been passed onthrough the family.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Well, that makes a lot of sense because I mean it
just during our prep call, andthen right before we hit record,
just going through some of thetopics and experiences that you
want to share, it's pretty coolbecause it seems when I'm
looking through uh the pyramidof success and some of the
different aspects and focuspoints, it does seem pretty
(04:11):
congruent with what your valuesand principles and how you've
lived your life.
So that's it's pretty cool tosee that.
I'm glad we stumbled on thispart of the conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
Yeah, me too.
It's the and and the same thingfor the character Ted Lasso, uh
doing something that's seemscompletely out of line with the
right choice, you know, a UScollege football coach becoming
a football coach in the UK, butit works because you know, as as
(04:44):
humans, I think we're alwaysadapting.
And change, it's cliche, we sayit's constant, but it's true.
And so how we learn to not justadapt to change, but try and
find ways to thrive, I thinkthat all channels down through
this.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Yeah, it's uh it's really cool stuff.
And so for everyone tuning in,we'll drop a link to the book in
the description setting so youcan check it out.
But Lance, I'd love to talk toyou a little bit more about your
childhood and growing up.
But where are you initiallyfrom?
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
My family, we kind of consider New Orleans home.
It's where my mom and dad uhboth grew up.
My dad was in the Navy, and so Igrew up in a in a Navy family,
and so we moved a lot, like anumber of your previous guests.
And that started teaching mesome important things early in
life, just how important yourfamily is, because we were there
(05:35):
for each other.
I'm still fortunate to be reallyclose with my brother and
sister, because when you move toa new neighborhood, those are
your first friends, and you'vealways got them.
Um, but seeing, you know, my dadserve our country and my mom uh
focus on raising our family, Iknow it built a good foundation
for me.
(05:56):
Um, and it also taught me someearly lessons about it's always
hard to leave a neighborhood anda school and sports teams and
the things you love, especiallyas a kid, because it's it's
everything.
But you find that getting to goto these new places, you get to
add more.
It's you're not losing it, it'sjust adding to it.
(06:18):
And so I found the same thing iscarried on through my
professional life that thingsare happening for you instead of
to you.
And so I just I look back on mychildhood as a wonderful time.
And like I shared with the JohnWooden thing, I started paying
attention to leadership andorganizations and and being part
(06:40):
of something bigger thanyourself um early on in life
without even realizing it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Yeah.
And so your your dad was in theNavy, and remember you were
telling me about uh a time thefirst time you went with him to
work, and you you joined him onuh one of the ships and were
able to have that experience.
What was that like?
What type of ship was it?
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
I was a destroyer that he was stationed on, and I
was just uh a a little guy, youknow, it was probably before
bringing your kid to work waseven a thing.
Um, but I I still remember theexperience of my dad knew the
people he was serving with.
He knew things about the workthey were doing and could
(07:24):
compliment them on it.
He also knew about them aspeople, he knew about their
families, and so it just again,a lesson that was ingrained in
me is that combination of we allwork so hard and we spend so
much time together.
How can you create a place wherepeople can thrive?
(07:47):
The idea of being in a placewhere people care about what
they're doing, and then it getseven better if people care about
the people they're doing itwith.
And I've been fortunate to be ina number of organizations where
that's the case.
And in some places, it's evenfor me, it's expanded to where
you love what you do and youlove the people you're doing it
(08:10):
with, and that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
That's really cool.
It also must have been reallycool just being on a destroyer
as a kid, like just such a coolship, right?
Like I'm looking out somedifferent pictures right now.
They're they're pretty massive,right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
They they are, you know, they've got 300 sailors on
it, um, who who make the youknow the the the ship go and and
be the instrument of of nationaldefense that it is.
Uh so that part's exciting forme.
Another memory about that day iswe got to drink bug juice, and
(08:47):
it was just the Navy's versionof Kool-Aid.
And but the fact that I got todrink bug juice, I continued to
tell friends about that the restof my childhood.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
Why why do they call it that?
Uh gosh.
I've never heard of that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
I don't know.
I you know, when I talked towhen I talked to my dad, um,
next time I talk to my dad,because we're fortunate that uh
he's still with us, I'll askhim.
We could even ask, we could evenask Copilot right now.
SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
I know.
I'm I'm I'm looking okay.
Uh highly sweetened poweredfruit drink.
It's just an interesting name.
Okay, the term originated fromthe sugary, often insect
attracting.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
That makes sense.
That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
So so you mentioned like with your your dad, he also
um he was a coach for a lot ofthe the sports teams that you're
on, too.
What was that like?
SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
It was fun.
Um, I really liked it.
And in fact, my wife and I hadour family, and when I could, I
tried to coach some of theirteams when they were kids.
What I remember about it, James,is that, and and a lot of kids
will share the same storieslike, yeah, you know, when my my
mom or dad uh was coaching theteam, they were harder on me.
(10:03):
They were mean to me.
And I can certainly remembertimes where I felt picked on,
but what I ended up walking awayfrom the experience that led me
to do that for my own kids, andit's helped influence the kind
of leader I am, is that theconstructive criticism that a
coach or a teacher, um, youknow, an acting coach, a dance
(10:26):
coach, any of that they're allgiving us is because they care
about us, they're willing togive us feedback that'll help us
be better, whether it's to runfaster or act better or sing you
know more beautifully.
It's that's why they're doingit.
And so that's the lesson thatended up sitting with me for all
(10:46):
coaches and teachers.
When when they're sharingsomething with you, it's not to
be mean, um, it's not to put youdown.
It's because they see that youcould do more.
SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
Yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about
that in more depth.
Um, you know, as a parent, it'suh it's a balancing act, right?
It's like constantly trying tomake sure your kids uh feel
accepted and loved likeunconditionally, and then also
being able to help them guidethem in the right direction.
(11:19):
And it's like this balancing ofin in work, I call the balance,
it's different, but there's theparallels.
I think being a dad hasdefinitely made me a better
leader, and it helped me reallyunderstand the importance of
operating with high levels ofempathy alongside high
standards.
Like, you know, if you haveempathy without high standards,
you're you're sort of just apushover as a leader.
(11:40):
If you have high standards, butyou don't have empathy, you kind
of come across as, you know,like you fill in your own word,
right?
But uh I I think like the youknow, as a parent, like that's
something that I feel like I'mstill trying to dial in on like
how to find that balance and howto do that.
I don't know if you have anyadvice on just like lessons
learned from your dad, and thenalso maybe I don't know if you
(12:02):
did any tweaks to it as a as afather, but uh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
I I I I really appreciate that we're getting to
see each other while we'retalking because as you brought
this up, your face lit up.
And so I can just tell that youknow, you're enjoying this this
part of your life being aparent.
And I can tell you, althoughI've got a few more years than
you um being a parent, thatwe're always learning and
(12:29):
evolving.
Um, that in fact you might beable to create some kind of
chart of that empathy and umstandards piece for where on
that spectrum can you be the thebest parent?
Um there's there's probably awhole book in that diagram that
you're describing.
(12:49):
My kids joke with me to thisday, they can remember.
I used to have this phrase thatI would say when it was helping
or hurting.
Like if they were getting intoit, um, it would just be this,
are you helping or hurting?
And it's kind of carried onthrough life that we now joke
about it as kids, and as they'renow both married and starting
(13:11):
that part of their life, uh,that you can see them maybe
thinking about things like that.
And they actually joke, youknow, when I'm in the room.
Um, we've got a couple ofgrandkids where helping or
hurting dad, um, it it just kindof transitions through that
whole piece of helping them beprepared to make their way
through life, become goodcontributing citizens to society
(13:35):
while also doing everything wecan for them.
So, you know, how do you findthat balance of not making it so
easy that they end up not beingable to work through change and
conflict at work and in life?
It's an interesting challenge.
And I'm not sure I've got a tonof advice for you other than try
and because you care and I couldsee it, like I said, how you
(13:57):
light up.
Um I'm sharing your being andgoing to continue to be a great
dad.
Um, one quick thing that I wouldshare with you is and my and
it's funny, my wife and I nevermade it a goal.
It's just kind of evolved.
But I think when you start afamily, the idea is get them
through high school and off towhatever's next.
And I should have known thisfrom my own relationship and my
(14:20):
wife with her parents too, isthat it didn't stop then for us.
And so why were we still focusedon that piece?
And now as I look back and thefact that um we're still very
close now that they're in adultsand starting their own families,
that that's the gift, is that itgets to keep going.
(14:41):
So just while you're probablylaser focused on how you get
them through this phase, um,we're playing a lifelong game
here.
And so it's a chance to learn,love, get better for the next
time something happens.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
Yeah, 100%.
It's uh definitely somethingwhere I'm like uh one of my
favorite phrases is likeswerving toward maturity, you
know.
Like you're over hopefully overtime you're like dialing in a
little bit more on the balance.
And it's kind of interestingbecause I see my dad and uh his
kind of evolution as a person,right?
(15:17):
And I think one of the thingsthat he's developed, and now
he's he's 73, but um patienceand empathy, right?
I think he's younger, is morestandards, performance mindset.
Um but then as a he's I thinkthe more practical wisdom and
life experience, it's like thelessons he instills in me now as
(15:39):
I'm parenting and approaching mylife.
It's like he's constantlypreaching patience, uh, empathy,
just and less, really less so onperformance.
Or when I was probably 18, 20,he was still younger.
And I guess I was younger tryingto get established, so it's a
little different too.
But it was more on like uhperformance.
(16:00):
So it's kind of interesting tosee that evolution.
So now I'm thinking, okay, likethis is interesting because he's
switching it up on me.
Like, so now that's right.
How do I try to incorporatethese different things, right?
Um, but yeah, I think it's areally interesting experience,
like looking at you know howwe're raised, and then it's like
do we tweak, do we keep thesame?
Um, and then also just learningfrom our parents as they get
(16:20):
older and they change is reallyinteresting too, right?
SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
Yeah.
And I think that ties to athome, at work, if you're
volunteering in the community,doing things like that, how we
all um treat each other.
Yeah, I think we start to gain agreater perspective, and
everything isn't uh black andwhite right now.
It's you said patience, youknow.
(16:47):
I think that would help a lot ifwe all took a deep breath,
whether it's with our kids inthe moment, uh, a coworker or
you know, somebody in thecommunity to take a deep breath
and think about what'shappening.
Yeah, helping or hurting.
SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
I like that.
Yeah.
I like that.
I like when there's simplephrases that they're easy to
remember and you can just pullthem out when you need them.
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
You know, it's nice when you have those types of
memorable terms.
Um, so that's a good one.
I wrote it down.
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
So I'm I've got I've got a slew.
Uh yeah that yeah.
So I've got my recruiting as ateam sport when we're talking
specifically about um TA, butagain, that gets to the whole
ecosystem that helps you hiregreat people who are going to
accelerate your company.
Um, you know, I also talk aboutuh we're all in this together.
(17:42):
And for me, that draws back tothe proverb that I think most
people are familiar with.
If you want to get somewherefast, go alone.
If you want to go far, you needto go with others.
Those resonate with with me.
I'm also a big fan of, you know,going back to the John Wooden
(18:03):
pyramid of success, how that'sled me through.
I remember in college readingthe book in search of
excellence.
It just changed how I thoughtabout problem solving.
And you and I were just talkingabout the long game.
You know, how do you do thingsnow that cumulatively are going
to make things better?
Uh, I'm a big fan of MalcolmGladwell's Outliers and David
(18:28):
and Goliath.
I think everybody knows theDavid story.
The way he frames it up is itwasn't an upset because all the
skills and experiences that eachof us are having are getting us
prepared for this moment.
I'm a big fan of Simon Sphinx.
I've done my own why.
Um, all those kind of thedifferent phrases and and pieces
(18:52):
that fit together in how I thinkabout leadership.
SPEAKER_00 (18:55):
Yeah.
I can't understate what Ibelieve to be the importance of
these personal development booksand authors.
I think there's like two kind ofcamps, right?
Where I think a lot of peopleconsider it's uh kind of like a
almost a self-help category orthis development category as um
like hard skills or or um theydon't necessarily make it a
(19:16):
priority or they see it as likealmost more like positive
thinking, or they're just not asinvested in these things.
And then there's another camp ofpeople.
I think generally a lot of theleaders I speak to, folks that
are really thriving, I think,are are very dialed in and think
about these things a lot andread these books.
The biggest influence outside ofmy parents was Tony Robbins.
(19:37):
Um for sure.
Sure.
He changed my life.
I would love to meet him before,you know, hopefully I can meet
him one day.
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
Um but uh well, there's gotta be somebody who's
listening to these conversationsthat you're sharing, and now
that you've done so many, whoknows Tony.
So to that person or persons,connect James with Tony.
Come on, people.
Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
You know, when I so when I initially started my
company for the first two years,I paid advisors more than I paid
myself.
And uh a lot of that went towarddifferent events and courses
through the Tony Robbinsorganization.
And this was at a time when Ireally didn't have any money.
(20:24):
I found a way to put together$15,000 to go to his business
seminar.
Um so, like, that's literally tothe extent that I I really cared
about that.
So I think it's just like socool to hear um some of the
books that that you read.
Um, I would love to learn morein search of excellence.
I I haven't heard about thatone.
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Uh is that more of like business or personal or
it's it it's business and in itit attracts um some great
companies.
I should go back and look andsee if there are companies that
haven't made it.
It just talks about how you cando things to create culture and
high performance and not justfor success in the next quarter,
(21:05):
but how do you become anenduring organization in a way
that uh, as we were talkingabout earlier, where the
company's thriving, people arethriving, and that I think just
spins out of the work to yourcustomers, everybody you touch.
Um, employees who are thriving,I think, are um the better
(21:28):
citizens in the communitybecause maybe they're not as
stressed and they're happier.
Um just a lot of I thinkgoodness comes out of that.
And so it got me thinking thatway, and also starting to look
back early in my life, whetherit's sports teams, we've talked
about my family.
Um, I was involved in Navy ROTCin college and my fraternity.
(21:53):
And just as I look back at theorganizations, being part of
organizations that really were,I was starting to feel like I'm
part of something larger thanjust me.
Um, and sometimes it was a smallbasketball team, and sometimes
it was it was largerorganizations, and I know that
led me on a path to to join theNavy.
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
So I I'd love to learn more uh about that.
Like what was that experiencelike joining the Navy?
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
Oh I I'm I'm smiling thinking about it.
Even though I grew up in a Navyfamily, I didn't intend to have
a Navy career.
I signed up for the Navy ROTCprogram because I was looking
for a way to help my parents payfor college for me.
(22:44):
And so I I did, and I wasfortunate.
enough to be selected and wentoff to the University of
Virginia and had everyintention.
Of course I was going to do mythe service required to pay back
for the scholarship, but I wasat that time I thought I was
going to be a I intended to bethe the orthopedic surgeon for
(23:06):
the Baltimore Orioles.
That's that's what I was goingto do since I wasn't going to
play center field for them.
I was going to make sure thatthey were the healthiest,
strongest team.
And then a funny thing happenedlike most people, I didn't like
the science and you can't be agreat doctor if you're not
(23:28):
interested in the foundation ofbeing a great doctor.
That just had me thinkingdifferently.
And then I had the chance to goto flight school for the Navy.
And I went uh when Top Gun wasall the rage and it was a really
exciting time.
And but as you get to the end ofum flight school and you're
(23:50):
choosing what platform you'regoing to go to again leaning
back on my wife and family andsome good friends I've talked
about being part of teams.
Just the idea of being part of alarger team.
So I I chose the P3.
You can see it on uh over myshoulder on on the bookcase
(24:13):
there.
It's a multi-mission platformwith a crew of 12 to 23.
And the idea of working withthis crew to accomplish the
mission I gravitated towardsthat and not that people who fly
a jet by themselves or maybewith a radar operator aren't
(24:33):
doing that.
But just the bigger team wassomething I was more drawn to
and now I a kid with friendsthat second to an aircraft
carrier the P3 the Mighty Orionis the most capable platform in
the U.S.
Navy because we can do anything.
And by platform the P3 is thatsorry I'm not familiar so that
(24:55):
is that's okay uh yeah by byplatform we mean that uh the
capabilities that while yes itis an aircraft um we could do
anti-submarine warfare soanybody who's who's watched the
movie about that we also carriedmines we carried bombs we
(25:16):
carried uh torpedoes we carriedmissiles and rockets on the
wings there isn't a mission thatwe couldn't do we could sink a
submarine we could sink a shipwe could go over land and um
target bad guys I can thinkabout some moments in my Navy
career that still stick with meand I can remember we were
(25:37):
flying over land um during NATOoperations when uh the people of
Kosovo went to to vote and howum how proud we were all to be
part of that in this NATO forcethat was ensuring people could
go safely vote.
So you know from anti-submarinewarfare to doing that um just it
(26:02):
was it was an amazing experiencefor me and also another piece
that taught me about um to watchtransformation as the Cold War
ended and we transitioned towhat became you know the next
couple of decades of the globalwar on terrorism that changed
everything in the Navy how wetrained how we actually fought
(26:22):
the global countries we had towork with internally how the
services worked and so it wasalso one of these pieces that
started to help me see change isalways happening and you have to
keep up with it and try and stayahead of it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
That's really interesting.
So what were the biggest changesthat that occurred I'd I I mean
this is just again an area thatI find fascinating.
It's not a world I've lived inso what was like that that shift
okay so the Cold War is endingwhere there's there's um and
particularly as you into theearly 2000s when you say the
Navy was was changing um whatwere some of the shifts that you
(27:00):
saw?
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Oh gosh so many um well for us I can speak
specifically to to the P3 andour crews we went from making
sure or trying to make sure weknew where our then the
adversary was the Soviet Unionwhere their nuclear submarines
were I mean that was job one andjust had to know where they were
(27:26):
um and then now we shifted andwe were starting to do surface
search and interdict drugs toprotect the country and then as
the threat of terrorism startedto increase across the globe we
started flying overland.
And so how do you take theskills that helped you in an
open ocean search literally tryand find that needle in a
(27:49):
haystack and all thecoordination that was required
of a crew to do that to how doyou now take that overland and
find a needle in a haystackinstead of in the ocean
somewhere in mountainous terrainor places we had never flown and
so the technology and thetraining and everything that had
(28:12):
to follow that evolution forwhat we were fighting against
just was eye-opening and wasvery instructive to me, you
know, in terms of building orrefreshing relationships with
other countries that we nowneeded to partner with.
Very exciting time.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
I would imagine too that you saw some pretty big uh
technological leaps right overthe years.
SPEAKER_01 (28:39):
That was that a cool experience to see the
technological changes to I don'tknow if the P3 had changes as uh
years went on and particularlywith these uh as things started
to change or what was that likeoh we absolutely did there there
are people who joke now thatmaybe the uh the k the computer
(28:59):
capabilities if you've got asmartwatch on right now are
arguably um more powerful from acomputer perspective than than
some of the equipment we had sowatching the technology keep up
we've seen that in spaceevolution right as we started to
do more and more in space andgot ready to put a man on the
(29:21):
moon and now of course you knowwe've sent satellites into the
furthest depths of of our galaxyum the same thing was happening
on our airplane I can rememberus flying with a a laptop
computer um on the aircraft thatwas helping us maybe reprogram
um the ability to send shoot aweapon at a different target
(29:44):
that was a a big change and nowof course that's happening
instantaneously with the waytechnology has changed so it was
also a part that helped me thinkabout uh while you need to be an
expert with what you have nowyou also need to be paying
attention to what's coming wecan't do everything this relates
(30:07):
to you know our TA technologyconversation you can't do every
new thing that's coming you needto be thinking long game but you
also have to make the rightmoves to make sure that not only
keep up with the competition buthow are you in a position where
the combination of technologyand your well-trained special
(30:29):
people who are really great atwhat they do how do you bring
that together to achieve yourobjective yeah definitely I
think it's a fascinatingbackground what was that
transition like to the corporatesector I mean how did that
happen and it to some extent I'mcurious to learn if it was a bit
of a culture shock or what itwas like to make that
(30:50):
transition.
It the truth the transition isit is enormous.
The fortunate piece I've beenlucky to have leaders and
mentors who cared about Lanceand and helped me through it
that transition I'll I'll stepback one place to you've heard
me talk about um my Navy careera little bit in the flying and I
(31:14):
got to do a lot of differentinteresting jobs in the Navy um
it was always preparing me in mymind to be an operational
squadron commander and beforward deployed the tip of the
spear to be forward deployingcould you tell us what that
means?
Sure that means that um rightnow across not just the United
(31:37):
States but across the globethere are military personnel in
every service who are trainingto be ready for whatever the
next operation is.
And as you're getting ready thenyou go on deployment.
So like right now you can readin the news there's a carrier
battle group that's um steamingtowards the Middle East a year
(31:59):
to a year and a half of trainingwent into that battle group
being ready to go forward and beable to do anything the nation
asked them to do or that afellow NATO country might ask us
to help with.
So when you're forward deployedyou're off away from your family
and you're completely focused onthe mission you know which is in
(32:23):
interdicting bad bad actorsright now is is a big part of
what we're doing.
And so that's in my mind what Iwas my goal and training to be
is just as I work my way throughroles of greater responsibility
in terms of um both in theaircraft and with the people I
led to be ready to lead you knowa command of three four hundred
(32:48):
people deploy away from theUnited States to to be there to
do our mission.
And when I came to that stage inmy career and I selected for
command which I was reallyexcited about and proud of it
wasn't to lead an operationalsquadron.
I remember my my boss who's wasa great mentor and leader and
(33:12):
now is a good friend came totell me the Navy wants you to
lead a recruiting command that'snot flying forward deployed.
And I I was disappointed I wasupset because I had this goal of
what I wanted to do and my wifewas upset for me.
It was like this this isn't whatwas supposed to happen.
(33:35):
What it really meant is what itwasn't what I wanted to happen.
And we were so fortunate that myboss at the time sat us down and
said I know this isn't what youwant but he also said you had
prepared you can do what youthought was next going to lead
in Navy recruiting is going tobe the hardest thing you've had
(33:58):
to do in your professionalcareer.
And so here it is instead ofsomething happening to me it's
happening for me.
And so we said okay it's whatthe Navy needs us to do.
And our family backed up and wemoved from Virginia Beach
Norfolk area to the Bay Area inCalifornia and all of a sudden I
(34:20):
was in charge of 300 sailorsfrom the California Oregon
border over into northwesternNevada down to the middle of the
state of California to find thenext great sailors for the U.S.
SPEAKER_00 (34:35):
Navy so that 300 person organization those were
all recruiters?
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
Well recruiters and people who are doing the
logistics of of the organizationto make sure you know the
recruiters have cars and and ifif you drive out in any
community you'll find an armedservices recruiting station and
so that's those people and whatI quickly learned James and this
was the the piece that changedmy life because I had been a
(35:05):
consumer of the Navy because myour favorite thing both as a kid
growing up watching it with myown mom and dad and then my wife
and I's experiences our favoritething about the Navy was what we
were doing and the people wewere doing it with.
And as I stepped into it and wasreally embraced by the the
(35:25):
recruiters who taught me the howto be successful in the mission,
what I realized is I now hadthis opportunity and
responsibility to pay it forwardso that my friends and shipmates
who were out there serving inforward deployed roles now had
the luxury that I did ofeverywhere you went you had
(35:48):
great people.
That now fell on us and thatchanged everything for me.
And I fell in love withrecruiting and it was just
wonderful to get out in thecommunity and find people who
are going to be the aviationelectricians and of course the
pilots and ship drivers but alsothe IT people, the cyber
(36:08):
warriors you have to go findthose people and all the
services are doing it.
So it is insanely competitivetrying to find the next great
sailor soldier marine coastguardsmen uh airman and um
that's where I fell in love withrecruiting is when I think about
the impact that it can make.
SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
Right.
So I mean that's a massiveorganization.
You were a commanding officerand then I also see on LinkedIn
chief operating and HR officerhow how was that broken down?
Was that for the SF region?
What's the structure of theorganization or what was it at
the time?
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
It's it's changed a little bit since I was there but
the idea is you have theserecruiting districts they now
call them talent acquisitiongroups situated throughout the
country and each of them has a acircle of responsibility like I
described where in thatpopulation uh we needed to find
(37:07):
the next group of people tolearn how to maintain aircraft
um run the engines on a ship thenuclear power plants on
submarines and ships and so ittaught me a lot more about the
Navy too and it took me back tobecause I understood the
business when I went out in thecommunity I could talk to people
(37:29):
about why it was necessary.
And there are still some verygood conversations going on this
day about some people why do wehave an all-volunteer force um
why do you need to talk to youngpeople in high schools about
military service and for for meas someone who had lived it it
was the chance to we needterrific people who are out
(37:52):
there um in uniform representingour country but also making sure
that we're successful in themission and so you you have to
have the best people just likeAcme Inc.
back here you know in the US orany country together all the
recruiting districts are findingenough people to go off to Navy
(38:15):
boot camp, marine boot camp, AirForce boot camp, because one of
the things about the militarythat's a little bit different
than the private sector is ifyou have a 13 year tenured
person as a product developer oran engineer and they leave a
role, we open up a role and wego find somebody who's got the
(38:36):
experiences and skills and webring them in laterally it's
much tougher in the militarywhen you lose someone after 8,
10, 12 years of training youhave to be growing your next
person because we can't just gofind that and bring it in.
And so the idea of therecruiting we're also doing is
(38:59):
the best recruiting tool in mymind is always retaining your
best people, right?
And so there are people who arein boot camp right now and the
Navy knows that we need Xpercentage of them to serve 20
years.
So we've got people who havethrough stepping stone of
(39:22):
experiences are prepared to dothat job 18 years from now.
And so that taught me a lotabout finding great people and
making sure that you're notconvincing them to do it.
It's what they want to do.
So there's that piece and thenanother piece about military
recruiting that is informed howI lead and recruit now is we all
(39:45):
know how hard it is, you know,after somebody signs an offer
letter wherever they are andacross the globe to make sure
they show up right and so theidea of we have to wait two
weeks for James to show up or 60days in you know in some
countries with notice periodsthat can seem like forever and
(40:05):
the organization needs to do agreat job to keep you engaged
across that 60 day period so youshow up on day one and get your
badge and your laptop and go towork.
In the military people are oftensigning up and they're not going
to start for eight, 10, 12months.
And so how do you keep someoneexcited and engaged about what
(40:28):
they signed up to do for theirnext job for that period of time
it just takes a level of effortrecruiting doesn't end when you
get the offer letter signed itcontinues to they show up when
they're supposed to and then howdo we help them thrive when they
join how do we help make surethat they achieve their personal
(40:50):
and professional objectiveswhile they're with our
organization so they stay.
And you know this could take usoff on a whole nother path but
I've always been fortunate inseeking organizations that
invest in the growth of ourpeople because we have to retain
them to continue to deliver forour customers and whatever uh
the mission of the organizationis I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
And I'm I'm excited to get into some of your your
top uh takeaways as a TA leaderand and what you focus on uh
before we jump into that thoughthere was like one story in your
military career that we didn'thave a chance to talk about that
I definitely want to um and thenyou were talking about when you
were in flight school rememberyou you told me that story about
(41:35):
the acrobatic solo that you weredoing so I would love if you
could tell us that story andmaybe just give some background
of like what any kind of termsmean that are more like you know
uh insider specific but we we'dlove to hear that story.
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Sure.
Um a couple things to set upthat example one of the things
you learn early on is and Ithink this applies to all jobs
you don't get in an airplane youstrap the aircraft on and it
becomes an extension of yourselfregardless of the size it is.
(42:11):
And so for a race car driverit's the car for us when we're
commuting, but you're strappingthat on and it is now an
extension of yourself.
The next piece is three thingsyou learn are you aviate,
navigate communicate in thatorder.
And why that's important isbecause when something changes
whether it's an emergency or badweather or whatever you have to
(42:33):
fly the plane safely first thennavigate.
So make sure you keep the planelevel and flying navigate to
make sure you don't fly intosomething you shouldn't and then
the third piece is communicate.
You do it in that order becauseif you start talking and trying
to let people know what's goingon and the airplane gets away
from you you know it's it's inthe news mishaps happen.
(42:56):
So you aviate navigatecommunicate and that is
instilled in us from day one.
And that now translates to whensomething happens at work or in
life fly the plane first takethat deep breath think about
what's going on make sure you'resafe in control then think about
the next step so you don't flyinto something and then the
(43:19):
third piece is tell people whatyou're doing.
And again because I think youfacilitate these fun
conversations I shared with youthe idea that uh after you learn
how to fly the plane safely inflight school and you've done
your solo, you move intoaerobatics and formation flying
to hone your skills and developsome new skills.
(43:40):
And in doing aerobatics you dothings that your body's not
quite used to and when I was outon my aerobatics solo and I was
doing my first um loop we'vepracticed it a ton with an
instructor uh before you go doit yourself.
And so you follow the processyou get all set up and you've
(44:01):
done it so you know what toexpect.
And when I was doing my firstone the adrenaline is crazy.
Your brain's thinking about athousand million things at the
same time as you're goingthrough it I just remember as I
was approaching the top of theloop it just didn't feel right.
And I I I can't describe it butit's a combination of
(44:21):
weightlessness and yet G's onyou to keep you in so you can
safely complete the loop.
And it just didn't feel rightand a million things go through
my head to include am I sensingthis wrong?
If I mess this up the airplane'sgonna be out of control and then
you've got to miss just amillion things going through
(44:42):
your head.
You think about your family allthe and I just Because of the
training we had, the aviate,navigate, communicate, I simply
just pulled the stick a littlebit closer to me, and all of a
sudden it felt normal.
And I finished it and came outof it.
And one, it was exhilarating todo by yourself, that the Navy
trusts you to take this airplaneand go do it and practice and
(45:04):
bring it back safely.
But the other piece that stayedwith me across my life is that
we prepare, we train, you'reready.
And when you're doing somethingand it doesn't seem right,
there's this combination of ifyou've done all these other
pieces, sometimes we have totrust our instincts, our gut,
and maybe make that little tweakor make that hard change.
(45:29):
But to make sure you come out ofthe loop safely, you have to do
it.
Because if you don't, there aresome unwelcome consequences.
And so that has just stuck withme through my personal and
professional life.
SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
Some really good lessons there.
So the aviate, navigate,communicate, that is so
applicable to everything.
And then again, it feels likesome of the best advice I feel
like after the fact is like, ohyeah, like of course, but it's
stuff that you don't necessarilythink about.
Like that's to me often the bestadvice I get.
It feels like common sense afteryou heard it, but you never
(46:05):
would have thought of it withoutbeing able to learn from other
people.
Uh but yeah, it's like this justthe basic principle of like,
look, if something doesn't feelright, like change it.
You know, um, it's probablybecause something isn't.
And uh what's so cool about thatexperience that you had is that
it was probably so emotionallyengaging and such like a almost
(46:29):
like a peak experience that itprobably like really
psychologically just instilledthat principle in you more than
if you were just learning it ina classroom, right?
Because it you know, to someextent, it was probably a pretty
intense moment that instilledthat lesson.
SPEAKER_01 (46:46):
You're absolutely right.
And and I know that's why theNavy gives us all the that
experience in flight school isto experience that and take it
forward with us, share it withour crews, share it with others,
and it's that you know, youknow, the Aviate Navigate
Communicate is another one ofthese short one-liners, you
know, that help me stay focusedand and trying to be successful
(47:12):
at life.
The uh another one is just thethe pebble in the pond, right?
And the ripples go out, anddepending on how big the pond
is, you never know where theripples are gonna end.
And that that one I think is thethe ripples continue to go
across my life and rememberingyou know some of these lessons
we've talked about um in ourconversation today.
SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
So I'd I'd love to talk to you about right now
you've held multiple talentacquisition leadership roles.
Now you're in a role ahead oftalent role.
So are you overseeing people opsand talent acquisition now, or
is it exclusively talentacquisition?
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
It's right now it's it's TA focused.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Okay, got it.
So at this point, you've run uhtalent acquisition recruiting uh
for the Navy, you've done it inthe private sector.
Um, I believe Barracuda's thetech industry, right?
It's a tech company, is thatright?
SPEAKER_01 (48:05):
Cybersecurity company, you know, we're uh a
leading provider to keep ourcustomers and their clients safe
against all the threats.
SPEAKER_00 (48:17):
You might um be interested, by the way.
We uh recorded an episode withthe CEO of Tenable uh probably a
couple of years ago, publiclytraded cyber company.
Um, I think probably two yearsago at this point.
I'll look for it and I'll I'llfind it.
You might find it interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (48:32):
But I'm sure I would.
SPEAKER_00 (48:34):
He ran uh he's a president of RSA and a couple of
um cyber startups that sold tolike the you know the big big
players.
SPEAKER_01 (48:42):
So definitely go listen.
Our our CEO before joiningBarracuda was CEO of RSA.
SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
Well, yeah, so there's a tie-in.
Yeah, yeah.
So he was president of RSA, ourguest, um probably 10 plus years
ago.
I don't know exactly, but uh um,anyways, uh something possibly
interesting for you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:04):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (49:05):
Yeah, of course.
Okay, so as a as a TA leader nowat Barracuda and at what would
you say for other townacquisition leaders and and
other executives, really anyonewho wants to build phenomenal
teams, what are the top lessonslearned or takeaways that you
can share?
SPEAKER_01 (49:21):
That's a good question because it really it's
a forcing function.
We all have a thousand thingsthat either we have to do or
want to do.
Nobody has the bandwidth orcapability, well, maybe some
people do from a resourcesperspective, to do them all.
And so for me, it's you have tobe laser focused on the top
(49:42):
couple that help your team moveforward.
And so for us, it is this jobone is recruiting people who can
accelerate the business.
Every role, I think you and Ieven talked about this.
Every role is really a businessproblem to be solved.
And how do you find the personor persons who can help your
(50:04):
organization?
So for us, it's staying laserfocused on delivering people who
are going to accelerate thebusiness.
And it's not just putting anyonein there, it's it's people who
are gonna make the organizationbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (50:17):
So one of the things that I found interesting when we
were talking uh before recordingwas um you talked about
unleashing recruiters.
And I wanted to see if you couldwhat exactly do you mean by
that?
SPEAKER_01 (50:29):
Uh so it it falls right from that first piece,
which is if if that's their jobone, if that's our collective
job one, we've got some guidancein place.
But I'm a believer that peopleshould be able to be the verb
that their job is.
So recruit, market, sell,develop.
(50:50):
And so for recruiters torecruit, I hope if you were to
talk to recruiters who've beenpart of my teams, and I've had
the opportunity to work with andlead, is that they get to run
their desk.
They understand what thepriorities are, but they get to
do it the way that helps thempartner with their hiring
managers, with their interviewteams, with the business leaders
(51:13):
they're working with, with theHR business partners who play
such a key role in all of thisto understand the business and
then find great people.
We have metrics that we'rereporting on and that we share
with the business.
And that's a a piece that we'retrying to get better at, I'm
(51:35):
trying to get better at.
But so the recruiters aren't outthere in the wild, wild west, so
to speak.
Their objectives and goals wehave, but how they go about it,
how they structure their day,that's up to them.
And we talk about it, so Iunderstand there are some
recruiters who are verystructured, and there are others
(51:59):
who just do things differently,we'll say.
And we need all kinds becausethere are different roles where
you know about a difficulthiring manager or a really tough
role that takes somebody who canthink differently and ask the
right question.
Um, and so you know, unleashingrecruiters, uh, because they
(52:21):
have this, in my mind, the bestthe best recruiters have some
insane skills in terms ofthey're really good listeners.
They don't just hear what Lanceor James is saying.
What are they telling me?
And they can pick up on thingswhere the examples they're
(52:41):
giving can tell a recruiter,well, you'd be much better for a
different role.
And because they're listening ina way that it's not to assess to
eliminate, but it's it's like agood sales organization.
How can I get this company tobuy our product, whether it's
now or in three years, ifrecruiters are thinking about
(53:03):
the needs of, in this case,Barracuda, when I hear something
from James that's like, you knowwhat, you're not right for this
site reliability engineer rolenow, but I heard something that
because I'm partnering with thebusiness and I know what's
happening in a couple ofquarters, I'm gonna maintain
this relationship because Idon't want to start at the post
(53:25):
and hope someone applies thathas the skills and experiences
and then have to go through thewhole process.
I'm gonna start with somebodyI'm already getting to know.
And so we try and nurture thoserelationships.
So recruiters are they're reallygood listeners.
And they also have this, we liketo talk about the have the
dotted line relationship.
(53:47):
So if you were to open upworkday right now, you would see
recruiters who are part of theTA organization and they
directly report to me or totheir manager.
What I really like is when arecruiter builds a relationship
with a business that leader orthat hiring manager thinks about
that person as part of theirorganization.
(54:07):
And they might even want tofight you over it.
It's like, no, James is part ofmy team.
It's like that's what you wantto hear because you've now
created that dotted line totheir org where you're being
invited to QBRs and their townhalls and any kind of strategic
planning session, they'regetting to know the business.
(54:28):
One, it helps them assess andget the right people in, but it
also shows a respect for thebusiness in the sense that who
doesn't get excited to talkabout what they do.
And so that's a great way tolearn the business.
And then if the recruiter islearning these things about the
business, if they've sat in onsome interviews or maybe a
(54:52):
working session, a whiteboardsession, the team has, they can
take that.
And when I'm talking to acandidate, you've got a couple
of moments to get Jamesinterested in this role.
And when they can give you aglimpse into the day in the life
of the role and why what you'regonna do here can have impact
(55:13):
and aligns to the personal andprofessional goals that they've
been pulling out of candidatesduring their conversations, it
just helps us align to thepeople who are gonna accelerate
the business, if not in thisrole now, when the right role
pops up for them.
SPEAKER_00 (55:30):
And that really ties into just generally speaking,
building strong and lastingrelationships, which I think the
quick bullet point takeaway isunleashing recruiters, right?
Like, and it sounds like that'sa combination of a lot of
things, but to some extent, it'salso sounds like you're giving
them ownership to do thingstheir own way.
(55:50):
And I think ownership and buy-ingo hand in hand.
Folks are able to have someindependence in how they
approach doing their job.
I I've learned this, I want tosay the hard way, or maybe just
took time.
I don't know if it was necessaryhard.
Just like I've been running mycompany for a decade now.
So I've been around for aminute, you know, I've led a lot
of individuals and helpedhundreds of companies hire.
(56:13):
I've seen a lot of cultures.
And I think what I've learned ispeople typically perform better
or they take ownership of theiroutcomes more when they have
more influence over how they dotheir job.
And so it's this balancing actof having consistency,
particularly as you start toscale, but it's also about
providing flexibility andallowing ownership.
(56:35):
And so I try to find the rightbalance.
And I think it's it's unique toevery organization, it's always
a little different.
But what I try to, I don't want,you know, if somebody wins, I
want them to feel like it's it'sit's a team win, but it's also
like they made that impact.
And also if if they don't getthe outcome they want, I don't
want them to feel like, well, Icould have, if I had been able
(56:57):
to, if I was trusted to do itthe way I wanted to do it, we
could have gotten a betteroutcome.
And so I try to be flexible.
I I set the star.
I say this is what I want tohave happen.
You could within that do it,right?
And if of course, if there'schallenges, then maybe there has
to be a little more structurewhy I step in and say, okay,
like we need to do more of this,you need to do a little of that.
(57:20):
But I I think that's acritically important leadership
lesson.
SPEAKER_01 (57:24):
Yeah, I think you've got another one of your graphs
there with how do you stay onthe that happy point of the
line, if you will, betweenfreedom and outcomes.
And different people are ondifferent parts of that
trajectory.
Again, it's fun that we can seeeach other because as you're
(57:46):
telling me that, I can see yourbrain working and you're
lighting up talking about that.
So this is fun.
SPEAKER_00 (57:52):
Yeah, it's a it's a lot of fun.
Looking through my notes, andum, I mean, there's so many, so
many good things to talk about.
I think what I want to make surethat we we cover is I would love
to hear about how yourdefinition of success has
changed from maybe the you knowformative life experiences,
(58:13):
right, to as a young adult tonow being in your prime
overseeing a large organization,like and also, of course, the
personal journey as well.
How's that changed over theyears?
SPEAKER_01 (58:26):
I like the way you're asking the question, not
just the question, because ithas changed, you know, just in
the examples that that we'vediscussed, once upon a time, my
goals were to achieve thehighest rank I could and the
most responsibility in the Navy.
And I was very fortunate toachieve some of that.
(58:48):
And it's helped me understandlife.
And I think so.
What's changed is that I'm a lotmore focused on how I see
success is it starts at homewith my family, you know, or is
my family thriving?
Because I work hard to try andprovide for my family.
And so we're always, again, onone of these graphs, right?
(59:10):
Trying to find that rightbalance.
And sometimes work overtakeshome life.
And that happens to be good atour job, to fulfill our
responsibilities.
And there are other times wherewhat's going on in our personal
lives influences work and youcan't do it.
And that's when you needteammates to pick you up.
And so as I think about that,you know, just seeing my family
(59:34):
be successful, and then insteadof more about my own success in
terms of climbing a ladder oftitles or something, I just have
really come to think about it interms of people I've had the
chance to influence and thatI've been influenced by.
And um, I'm not as great as Iwould like to be in terms of
(59:55):
keeping up with even some of thepeople I've talked about who've
influenced me in today'sconversation.
But the fact that I've had thechance to build this
professional network and thiscommunity that I'm part of,
where um I'm still talking withpeople I served with in the
Navy, you know, we go back morethan 20 years, and recruiters
(01:00:17):
and other leaders that I'veworked with in my now uh time in
the private sector, um, thatwe're still connected and
learning from and with eachother.
Um, is just that's more how Iview it.
It it translates back to, Ithink a lot of people might be
familiar with David Brooks's hisfamous article on um the eulogy
(01:00:39):
resume.
And just we we focus so much onour work resume, but the one
that counts the most is just thelife resume.
And so I just really value itwhen I have the chance to impact
somebody and you know they'rethinking about their next job or
next step in life if it's mykids.
Uh so that's that's more how Ithink about success is is
(01:01:01):
through others.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:03):
Yeah, I love that.
It's uh getting back to tying inwhat you help others see as
impact, and it's like thinkingabout impact for yourself in
your life, right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:10):
And yeah, and because I get so much out of it
too that it's gratifying.
And and I'm sitting here withyou just feeling uh really
grateful.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:20):
Well, I love it.
Lance, I've really enjoyed thisuh conversation and I'm I'm
grateful as well.
Thanks for coming on today andand sharing your story.
It's been a lot of fun, and wegot some really cool ones.
I I love the acrobatic loopstory.
That's uh that's pretty freakingcool.
I was trying to put myself inyour shoes, and I was like, man,
that sounds sounds pretty scary,honestly.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:42):
Well, I I don't know about that, but but the irony
about that is that you reallydon't do there's no really, you
don't do those kind of maneuversin a P3.
Um but again, the impact it hadon me and how when you strap the
aircraft on, um, just like inanything, there's opportunity
and responsibility.
(01:02:03):
And that combination of the twois just it's exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02:07):
It yeah, it is.
It's a great, great story, greattakeaways.
Well, Lance, thank you.
Thanks for joining us today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:14):
Oh, thank you, James.
So appreciate what you're doing.
Thank you everyone for tuning in.
We got Lance Sapira here today.
He's currently in the role ofglobal head of talent at
Barracuda.
And then previously he's workedat some pretty cool companies
like Symantec and Intuit aswell.
Lance, we're really lookingforward to learning more about
your background and yourjourney.
Thanks for doing this with us.
We appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
It's great to be with you, James.
As you and I talked about alittle bit, I appreciate the
opportunity to just bereflective and think about some
of these things.
And I've listened to a number ofyour episodes, and you just you
facilitate a fun conversation.
And I've learned a ton in thenumber of episodes that I've
listened to after you and Ifirst started talking.
(01:27):
So I'm looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Yeah, yeah, me too.
And uh I think you were justtalking about your mug you got
there.
You said it's from Ted Lasso.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:34):
I got my Ted Lasso Believe mug.
It just aligns with my wholelife.
I think anybody would tell you,going back to a kid, uh, my dad,
my whole family were big sportsfans in particular.
Um, had the chance to see a UCLAbasketball game as a kid when
John Wooden was still coaching.
And I just I found this theme ofwatching coaches who were great
(01:59):
leaders and and paying attentionto leadership started.
And I actually, my dad got me acopy of John Wooden's signed
copy of John Wooden's Pyramid ofSuccess, which I think most
people who've watched all of TedLasso, it's in the locker room
on the wall.
One of my kids grew up andactually went to UCLA.
They now have the pyramid ofsuccess.
(02:20):
So we're passing it on throughthe family.
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
That's really cool.
So what is the uh I actuallyhaven't heard of this, the
pyramid of success.
I'm I'm looking it up now.
Um so coaching philosophies,essentially.
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
Uh yeah, some of it's coaching, but a lot of it
is about what can make you greaton the basketball court can also
help you be great in life, um,in whatever your role is,
friend, sibling, parent, um,husband, wife, um, partner.
And so I just find that it'sjust always been something that
(02:56):
um aligned for me and alsohelping me try to be really good
at home and really good at workand really good with you know
people that uh you'reinteracting with.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
So this is something that you read when you were you
were a kid, right?
You said your dad got you thisbook when you were about how old
were you?
SPEAKER_01 (03:16):
Oh gosh, um I was probably, I don't know, 10 or
12, maybe when I saw UCLA andand John Wooden coaching.
The pyramid of success probablycame shortly after that when I
was a teenager.
Um I can't remember how my dadgot the chance to get a signed
copy, but he gave it to me and Ijust kept it.
(03:38):
And then all of a sudden, whenyou've got a one of your your
kids ends up going to UCLA, it'slike they need to have this.
And so it's it's been passed onthrough the family.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Well, that makes a lot of sense because I mean it
just during our prep call, andthen right before we hit record,
just going through some of thetopics and experiences that you
want to share, it's pretty coolbecause it seems when I'm
looking through uh the pyramidof success and some of the
different aspects and focuspoints, it does seem pretty
(04:11):
congruent with what your valuesand principles and how you've
lived your life.
So that's it's pretty cool tosee that.
I'm glad we stumbled on thispart of the conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
Yeah, me too.
It's the and and the same thingfor the character Ted Lasso, uh
doing something that's seemscompletely out of line with the
right choice, you know, a UScollege football coach becoming
a football coach in the UK, butit works because you know, as as
(04:44):
humans, I think we're alwaysadapting.
And change, it's cliche, we sayit's constant, but it's true.
And so how we learn to not justadapt to change, but try and
find ways to thrive, I thinkthat all channels down through
this.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Yeah, it's uh it's really cool stuff.
And so for everyone tuning in,we'll drop a link to the book in
the description setting so youcan check it out.
But Lance, I'd love to talk toyou a little bit more about your
childhood and growing up.
But where are you initiallyfrom?
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
My family, we kind of consider New Orleans home.
It's where my mom and dad uhboth grew up.
My dad was in the Navy, and so Igrew up in a in a Navy family,
and so we moved a lot, like anumber of your previous guests.
And that started teaching mesome important things early in
life, just how important yourfamily is, because we were there
(05:35):
for each other.
I'm still fortunate to be reallyclose with my brother and
sister, because when you move toa new neighborhood, those are
your first friends, and you'vealways got them.
Um, but seeing, you know, my dadserve our country and my mom uh
focus on raising our family, Iknow it built a good foundation
for me.
(05:56):
Um, and it also taught me someearly lessons about it's always
hard to leave a neighborhood anda school and sports teams and
the things you love, especiallyas a kid, because it's it's
everything.
But you find that getting to goto these new places, you get to
add more.
It's you're not losing it, it'sjust adding to it.
(06:18):
And so I found the same thing iscarried on through my
professional life that thingsare happening for you instead of
to you.
And so I just I look back on mychildhood as a wonderful time.
And like I shared with the JohnWooden thing, I started paying
attention to leadership andorganizations and and being part
(06:40):
of something bigger thanyourself um early on in life
without even realizing it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:46):
Yeah.
And so your your dad was in theNavy, and remember you were
telling me about uh a time thefirst time you went with him to
work, and you you joined him onuh one of the ships and were
able to have that experience.
What was that like?
What type of ship was it?
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
I was a destroyer that he was stationed on, and I
was just uh a a little guy, youknow, it was probably before
bringing your kid to work waseven a thing.
Um, but I I still remember theexperience of my dad knew the
people he was serving with.
He knew things about the workthey were doing and could
(07:24):
compliment them on it.
He also knew about them aspeople, he knew about their
families, and so it just again,a lesson that was ingrained in
me is that combination of we allwork so hard and we spend so
much time together.
How can you create a place wherepeople can thrive?
(07:47):
The idea of being in a placewhere people care about what
they're doing, and then it getseven better if people care about
the people they're doing itwith.
And I've been fortunate to be ina number of organizations where
that's the case.
And in some places, it's evenfor me, it's expanded to where
you love what you do and youlove the people you're doing it
(08:10):
with, and that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
That's really cool.
It also must have been reallycool just being on a destroyer
as a kid, like just such a coolship, right?
Like I'm looking out somedifferent pictures right now.
They're they're pretty massive,right?
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
They they are, you know, they've got 300 sailors on
it, um, who who make the youknow the the the ship go and and
be the instrument of of nationaldefense that it is.
Uh so that part's exciting forme.
Another memory about that day iswe got to drink bug juice, and
(08:47):
it was just the Navy's versionof Kool-Aid.
And but the fact that I got todrink bug juice, I continued to
tell friends about that the restof my childhood.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
Why why do they call it that?
Uh gosh.
I've never heard of that.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
I don't know.
I you know, when I talked towhen I talked to my dad, um,
next time I talk to my dad,because we're fortunate that uh
he's still with us, I'll askhim.
We could even ask, we could evenask Copilot right now.
SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
I know.
I'm I'm I'm looking okay.
Uh highly sweetened poweredfruit drink.
It's just an interesting name.
Okay, the term originated fromthe sugary, often insect
attracting.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
That makes sense.
That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
So so you mentioned like with your your dad, he also
um he was a coach for a lot ofthe the sports teams that you're
on, too.
What was that like?
SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
It was fun.
Um, I really liked it.
And in fact, my wife and I hadour family, and when I could, I
tried to coach some of theirteams when they were kids.
What I remember about it, James,is that, and and a lot of kids
will share the same storieslike, yeah, you know, when my my
mom or dad uh was coaching theteam, they were harder on me.
(10:03):
They were mean to me.
And I can certainly remembertimes where I felt picked on,
but what I ended up walking awayfrom the experience that led me
to do that for my own kids, andit's helped influence the kind
of leader I am, is that theconstructive criticism that a
coach or a teacher, um, youknow, an acting coach, a dance
(10:26):
coach, any of that they're allgiving us is because they care
about us, they're willing togive us feedback that'll help us
be better, whether it's to runfaster or act better or sing you
know more beautifully.
It's that's why they're doingit.
And so that's the lesson thatended up sitting with me for all
(10:46):
coaches and teachers.
When when they're sharingsomething with you, it's not to
be mean, um, it's not to put youdown.
It's because they see that youcould do more.
SPEAKER_00 (10:59):
Yeah, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about
that in more depth.
Um, you know, as a parent, it'suh it's a balancing act, right?
It's like constantly trying tomake sure your kids uh feel
accepted and loved likeunconditionally, and then also
being able to help them guidethem in the right direction.
(11:19):
And it's like this balancing ofin in work, I call the balance,
it's different, but there's theparallels.
I think being a dad hasdefinitely made me a better
leader, and it helped me reallyunderstand the importance of
operating with high levels ofempathy alongside high
standards.
Like, you know, if you haveempathy without high standards,
you're you're sort of just apushover as a leader.
(11:40):
If you have high standards, butyou don't have empathy, you kind
of come across as, you know,like you fill in your own word,
right?
But uh I I think like the youknow, as a parent, like that's
something that I feel like I'mstill trying to dial in on like
how to find that balance and howto do that.
I don't know if you have anyadvice on just like lessons
learned from your dad, and thenalso maybe I don't know if you
(12:02):
did any tweaks to it as a as afather, but uh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
I I I I really appreciate that we're getting to
see each other while we'retalking because as you brought
this up, your face lit up.
And so I can just tell that youknow, you're enjoying this this
part of your life being aparent.
And I can tell you, althoughI've got a few more years than
you um being a parent, thatwe're always learning and
(12:29):
evolving.
Um, that in fact you might beable to create some kind of
chart of that empathy and umstandards piece for where on
that spectrum can you be the thebest parent?
Um there's there's probably awhole book in that diagram that
you're describing.
(12:49):
My kids joke with me to thisday, they can remember.
I used to have this phrase thatI would say when it was helping
or hurting.
Like if they were getting intoit, um, it would just be this,
are you helping or hurting?
And it's kind of carried onthrough life that we now joke
about it as kids, and as they'renow both married and starting
(13:11):
that part of their life, uh,that you can see them maybe
thinking about things like that.
And they actually joke, youknow, when I'm in the room.
Um, we've got a couple ofgrandkids where helping or
hurting dad, um, it it just kindof transitions through that
whole piece of helping them beprepared to make their way
through life, become goodcontributing citizens to society
(13:35):
while also doing everything wecan for them.
So, you know, how do you findthat balance of not making it so
easy that they end up not beingable to work through change and
conflict at work and in life?
It's an interesting challenge.
And I'm not sure I've got a tonof advice for you other than try
and because you care and I couldsee it, like I said, how you
(13:57):
light up.
Um I'm sharing your being andgoing to continue to be a great
dad.
Um, one quick thing that I wouldshare with you is and my and
it's funny, my wife and I nevermade it a goal.
It's just kind of evolved.
But I think when you start afamily, the idea is get them
through high school and off towhatever's next.
And I should have known thisfrom my own relationship and my
(14:20):
wife with her parents too, isthat it didn't stop then for us.
And so why were we still focusedon that piece?
And now as I look back and thefact that um we're still very
close now that they're in adultsand starting their own families,
that that's the gift, is that itgets to keep going.
(14:41):
So just while you're probablylaser focused on how you get
them through this phase, um,we're playing a lifelong game
here.
And so it's a chance to learn,love, get better for the next
time something happens.
SPEAKER_00 (14:57):
Yeah, 100%.
It's uh definitely somethingwhere I'm like uh one of my
favorite phrases is likeswerving toward maturity, you
know.
Like you're over hopefully overtime you're like dialing in a
little bit more on the balance.
And it's kind of interestingbecause I see my dad and uh his
kind of evolution as a person,right?
(15:17):
And I think one of the thingsthat he's developed, and now
he's he's 73, but um patienceand empathy, right?
I think he's younger, is morestandards, performance mindset.
Um but then as a he's I thinkthe more practical wisdom and
life experience, it's like thelessons he instills in me now as
(15:39):
I'm parenting and approaching mylife.
It's like he's constantlypreaching patience, uh, empathy,
just and less, really less so onperformance.
Or when I was probably 18, 20,he was still younger.
And I guess I was younger tryingto get established, so it's a
little different too.
But it was more on like uhperformance.
(16:00):
So it's kind of interesting tosee that evolution.
So now I'm thinking, okay, likethis is interesting because he's
switching it up on me.
Like, so now that's right.
How do I try to incorporatethese different things, right?
Um, but yeah, I think it's areally interesting experience,
like looking at you know howwe're raised, and then it's like
do we tweak, do we keep thesame?
Um, and then also just learningfrom our parents as they get
(16:20):
older and they change is reallyinteresting too, right?
SPEAKER_01 (16:24):
Yeah.
And I think that ties to athome, at work, if you're
volunteering in the community,doing things like that, how we
all um treat each other.
Yeah, I think we start to gain agreater perspective, and
everything isn't uh black andwhite right now.
It's you said patience, youknow.
(16:47):
I think that would help a lot ifwe all took a deep breath,
whether it's with our kids inthe moment, uh, a coworker or
you know, somebody in thecommunity to take a deep breath
and think about what'shappening.
Yeah, helping or hurting.
SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
I like that.
Yeah.
I like that.
I like when there's simplephrases that they're easy to
remember and you can just pullthem out when you need them.
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
You know, it's nice when you have those types of
memorable terms.
Um, so that's a good one.
I wrote it down.
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
So I'm I've got I've got a slew.
Uh yeah that yeah.
So I've got my recruiting as ateam sport when we're talking
specifically about um TA, butagain, that gets to the whole
ecosystem that helps you hiregreat people who are going to
accelerate your company.
Um, you know, I also talk aboutuh we're all in this together.
(17:42):
And for me, that draws back tothe proverb that I think most
people are familiar with.
If you want to get somewherefast, go alone.
If you want to go far, you needto go with others.
Those resonate with with me.
I'm also a big fan of, you know,going back to the John Wooden
(18:03):
pyramid of success, how that'sled me through.
I remember in college readingthe book in search of
excellence.
It just changed how I thoughtabout problem solving.
And you and I were just talkingabout the long game.
You know, how do you do thingsnow that cumulatively are going
to make things better?
Uh, I'm a big fan of MalcolmGladwell's Outliers and David
(18:28):
and Goliath.
I think everybody knows theDavid story.
The way he frames it up is itwasn't an upset because all the
skills and experiences that eachof us are having are getting us
prepared for this moment.
I'm a big fan of Simon Sphinx.
I've done my own why.
Um, all those kind of thedifferent phrases and and pieces
(18:52):
that fit together in how I thinkabout leadership.
SPEAKER_00 (18:55):
Yeah.
I can't understate what Ibelieve to be the importance of
these personal development booksand authors.
I think there's like two kind ofcamps, right?
Where I think a lot of peopleconsider it's uh kind of like a
almost a self-help category orthis development category as um
like hard skills or or um theydon't necessarily make it a
(19:16):
priority or they see it as likealmost more like positive
thinking, or they're just not asinvested in these things.
And then there's another camp ofpeople.
I think generally a lot of theleaders I speak to, folks that
are really thriving, I think,are are very dialed in and think
about these things a lot andread these books.
The biggest influence outside ofmy parents was Tony Robbins.
(19:37):
Um for sure.
Sure.
He changed my life.
I would love to meet him before,you know, hopefully I can meet
him one day.
SPEAKER_01 (19:45):
Um but uh well, there's gotta be somebody who's
listening to these conversationsthat you're sharing, and now
that you've done so many, whoknows Tony.
So to that person or persons,connect James with Tony.
Come on, people.
Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
You know, when I so when I initially started my
company for the first two years,I paid advisors more than I paid
myself.
And uh a lot of that went towarddifferent events and courses
through the Tony Robbinsorganization.
And this was at a time when Ireally didn't have any money.
(20:24):
I found a way to put together$15,000 to go to his business
seminar.
Um so, like, that's literally tothe extent that I I really cared
about that.
So I think it's just like socool to hear um some of the
books that that you read.
Um, I would love to learn morein search of excellence.
I I haven't heard about thatone.
SPEAKER_01 (20:42):
Uh is that more of like business or personal or
it's it it's business and in itit attracts um some great
companies.
I should go back and look andsee if there are companies that
haven't made it.
It just talks about how you cando things to create culture and
high performance and not justfor success in the next quarter,
(21:05):
but how do you become anenduring organization in a way
that uh, as we were talkingabout earlier, where the
company's thriving, people arethriving, and that I think just
spins out of the work to yourcustomers, everybody you touch.
Um, employees who are thriving,I think, are um the better
(21:28):
citizens in the communitybecause maybe they're not as
stressed and they're happier.
Um just a lot of I thinkgoodness comes out of that.
And so it got me thinking thatway, and also starting to look
back early in my life, whetherit's sports teams, we've talked
about my family.
Um, I was involved in Navy ROTCin college and my fraternity.
(21:53):
And just as I look back at theorganizations, being part of
organizations that really were,I was starting to feel like I'm
part of something larger thanjust me.
Um, and sometimes it was a smallbasketball team, and sometimes
it was it was largerorganizations, and I know that
led me on a path to to join theNavy.
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
So I I'd love to learn more uh about that.
Like what was that experiencelike joining the Navy?
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
Oh I I'm I'm smiling thinking about it.
Even though I grew up in a Navyfamily, I didn't intend to have
a Navy career.
I signed up for the Navy ROTCprogram because I was looking
for a way to help my parents payfor college for me.
(22:44):
And so I I did, and I wasfortunate.
enough to be selected and wentoff to the University of
Virginia and had everyintention.
Of course I was going to do mythe service required to pay back
for the scholarship, but I wasat that time I thought I was
going to be a I intended to bethe the orthopedic surgeon for
(23:06):
the Baltimore Orioles.
That's that's what I was goingto do since I wasn't going to
play center field for them.
I was going to make sure thatthey were the healthiest,
strongest team.
And then a funny thing happenedlike most people, I didn't like
the science and you can't be agreat doctor if you're not
(23:28):
interested in the foundation ofbeing a great doctor.
That just had me thinkingdifferently.
And then I had the chance to goto flight school for the Navy.
And I went uh when Top Gun wasall the rage and it was a really
exciting time.
And but as you get to the end ofum flight school and you're
(23:50):
choosing what platform you'regoing to go to again leaning
back on my wife and family andsome good friends I've talked
about being part of teams.
Just the idea of being part of alarger team.
So I I chose the P3.
You can see it on uh over myshoulder on on the bookcase
(24:13):
there.
It's a multi-mission platformwith a crew of 12 to 23.
And the idea of working withthis crew to accomplish the
mission I gravitated towardsthat and not that people who fly
a jet by themselves or maybewith a radar operator aren't
(24:33):
doing that.
But just the bigger team wassomething I was more drawn to
and now I a kid with friendsthat second to an aircraft
carrier the P3 the Mighty Orionis the most capable platform in
the U.S.
Navy because we can do anything.
And by platform the P3 is thatsorry I'm not familiar so that
(24:55):
is that's okay uh yeah by byplatform we mean that uh the
capabilities that while yes itis an aircraft um we could do
anti-submarine warfare soanybody who's who's watched the
movie about that we also carriedmines we carried bombs we
(25:16):
carried uh torpedoes we carriedmissiles and rockets on the
wings there isn't a mission thatwe couldn't do we could sink a
submarine we could sink a shipwe could go over land and um
target bad guys I can thinkabout some moments in my Navy
career that still stick with meand I can remember we were
(25:37):
flying over land um during NATOoperations when uh the people of
Kosovo went to to vote and howum how proud we were all to be
part of that in this NATO forcethat was ensuring people could
go safely vote.
So you know from anti-submarinewarfare to doing that um just it
(26:02):
was it was an amazing experiencefor me and also another piece
that taught me about um to watchtransformation as the Cold War
ended and we transitioned towhat became you know the next
couple of decades of the globalwar on terrorism that changed
everything in the Navy how wetrained how we actually fought
(26:22):
the global countries we had towork with internally how the
services worked and so it wasalso one of these pieces that
started to help me see change isalways happening and you have to
keep up with it and try and stayahead of it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:39):
That's really interesting.
So what were the biggest changesthat that occurred I'd I I mean
this is just again an area thatI find fascinating.
It's not a world I've lived inso what was like that that shift
okay so the Cold War is endingwhere there's there's um and
particularly as you into theearly 2000s when you say the
Navy was was changing um whatwere some of the shifts that you
(27:00):
saw?
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Oh gosh so many um well for us I can speak
specifically to to the P3 andour crews we went from making
sure or trying to make sure weknew where our then the
adversary was the Soviet Unionwhere their nuclear submarines
were I mean that was job one andjust had to know where they were
(27:26):
um and then now we shifted andwe were starting to do surface
search and interdict drugs toprotect the country and then as
the threat of terrorism startedto increase across the globe we
started flying overland.
And so how do you take theskills that helped you in an
open ocean search literally tryand find that needle in a
(27:49):
haystack and all thecoordination that was required
of a crew to do that to how doyou now take that overland and
find a needle in a haystackinstead of in the ocean
somewhere in mountainous terrainor places we had never flown and
so the technology and thetraining and everything that had
(28:12):
to follow that evolution forwhat we were fighting against
just was eye-opening and wasvery instructive to me, you
know, in terms of building orrefreshing relationships with
other countries that we nowneeded to partner with.
Very exciting time.
SPEAKER_00 (28:32):
I would imagine too that you saw some pretty big uh
technological leaps right overthe years.
SPEAKER_01 (28:39):
That was that a cool experience to see the
technological changes to I don'tknow if the P3 had changes as uh
years went on and particularlywith these uh as things started
to change or what was that likeoh we absolutely did there there
are people who joke now thatmaybe the uh the k the computer
(28:59):
capabilities if you've got asmartwatch on right now are
arguably um more powerful from acomputer perspective than than
some of the equipment we had sowatching the technology keep up
we've seen that in spaceevolution right as we started to
do more and more in space andgot ready to put a man on the
(29:21):
moon and now of course you knowwe've sent satellites into the
furthest depths of of our galaxyum the same thing was happening
on our airplane I can rememberus flying with a a laptop
computer um on the aircraft thatwas helping us maybe reprogram
um the ability to send shoot aweapon at a different target
(29:44):
that was a a big change and nowof course that's happening
instantaneously with the waytechnology has changed so it was
also a part that helped me thinkabout uh while you need to be an
expert with what you have nowyou also need to be paying
attention to what's coming wecan't do everything this relates
(30:07):
to you know our TA technologyconversation you can't do every
new thing that's coming you needto be thinking long game but you
also have to make the rightmoves to make sure that not only
keep up with the competition buthow are you in a position where
the combination of technologyand your well-trained special
(30:29):
people who are really great atwhat they do how do you bring
that together to achieve yourobjective yeah definitely I
think it's a fascinatingbackground what was that
transition like to the corporatesector I mean how did that
happen and it to some extent I'mcurious to learn if it was a bit
of a culture shock or what itwas like to make that
(30:50):
transition.
It the truth the transition isit is enormous.
The fortunate piece I've beenlucky to have leaders and
mentors who cared about Lanceand and helped me through it
that transition I'll I'll stepback one place to you've heard
me talk about um my Navy careera little bit in the flying and I
(31:14):
got to do a lot of differentinteresting jobs in the Navy um
it was always preparing me in mymind to be an operational
squadron commander and beforward deployed the tip of the
spear to be forward deployingcould you tell us what that
means?
Sure that means that um rightnow across not just the United
(31:37):
States but across the globethere are military personnel in
every service who are trainingto be ready for whatever the
next operation is.
And as you're getting ready thenyou go on deployment.
So like right now you can readin the news there's a carrier
battle group that's um steamingtowards the Middle East a year
(31:59):
to a year and a half of trainingwent into that battle group
being ready to go forward and beable to do anything the nation
asked them to do or that afellow NATO country might ask us
to help with.
So when you're forward deployedyou're off away from your family
and you're completely focused onthe mission you know which is in
(32:23):
interdicting bad bad actorsright now is is a big part of
what we're doing.
And so that's in my mind what Iwas my goal and training to be
is just as I work my way throughroles of greater responsibility
in terms of um both in theaircraft and with the people I
led to be ready to lead you knowa command of three four hundred
(32:48):
people deploy away from theUnited States to to be there to
do our mission.
And when I came to that stage inmy career and I selected for
command which I was reallyexcited about and proud of it
wasn't to lead an operationalsquadron.
I remember my my boss who's wasa great mentor and leader and
(33:12):
now is a good friend came totell me the Navy wants you to
lead a recruiting command that'snot flying forward deployed.
And I I was disappointed I wasupset because I had this goal of
what I wanted to do and my wifewas upset for me.
It was like this this isn't whatwas supposed to happen.
(33:35):
What it really meant is what itwasn't what I wanted to happen.
And we were so fortunate that myboss at the time sat us down and
said I know this isn't what youwant but he also said you had
prepared you can do what youthought was next going to lead
in Navy recruiting is going tobe the hardest thing you've had
(33:58):
to do in your professionalcareer.
And so here it is instead ofsomething happening to me it's
happening for me.
And so we said okay it's whatthe Navy needs us to do.
And our family backed up and wemoved from Virginia Beach
Norfolk area to the Bay Area inCalifornia and all of a sudden I
(34:20):
was in charge of 300 sailorsfrom the California Oregon
border over into northwesternNevada down to the middle of the
state of California to find thenext great sailors for the U.S.
SPEAKER_00 (34:35):
Navy so that 300 person organization those were
all recruiters?
SPEAKER_01 (34:40):
Well recruiters and people who are doing the
logistics of of the organizationto make sure you know the
recruiters have cars and and ifif you drive out in any
community you'll find an armedservices recruiting station and
so that's those people and whatI quickly learned James and this
was the the piece that changedmy life because I had been a
(35:05):
consumer of the Navy because myour favorite thing both as a kid
growing up watching it with myown mom and dad and then my wife
and I's experiences our favoritething about the Navy was what we
were doing and the people wewere doing it with.
And as I stepped into it and wasreally embraced by the the
(35:25):
recruiters who taught me the howto be successful in the mission,
what I realized is I now hadthis opportunity and
responsibility to pay it forwardso that my friends and shipmates
who were out there serving inforward deployed roles now had
the luxury that I did ofeverywhere you went you had
(35:48):
great people.
That now fell on us and thatchanged everything for me.
And I fell in love withrecruiting and it was just
wonderful to get out in thecommunity and find people who
are going to be the aviationelectricians and of course the
pilots and ship drivers but alsothe IT people, the cyber
(36:08):
warriors you have to go findthose people and all the
services are doing it.
So it is insanely competitivetrying to find the next great
sailor soldier marine coastguardsmen uh airman and um
that's where I fell in love withrecruiting is when I think about
the impact that it can make.
SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
Right.
So I mean that's a massiveorganization.
You were a commanding officerand then I also see on LinkedIn
chief operating and HR officerhow how was that broken down?
Was that for the SF region?
What's the structure of theorganization or what was it at
the time?
SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
It's it's changed a little bit since I was there but
the idea is you have theserecruiting districts they now
call them talent acquisitiongroups situated throughout the
country and each of them has a acircle of responsibility like I
described where in thatpopulation uh we needed to find
(37:07):
the next group of people tolearn how to maintain aircraft
um run the engines on a ship thenuclear power plants on
submarines and ships and so ittaught me a lot more about the
Navy too and it took me back tobecause I understood the
business when I went out in thecommunity I could talk to people
(37:29):
about why it was necessary.
And there are still some verygood conversations going on this
day about some people why do wehave an all-volunteer force um
why do you need to talk to youngpeople in high schools about
military service and for for meas someone who had lived it it
was the chance to we needterrific people who are out
(37:52):
there um in uniform representingour country but also making sure
that we're successful in themission and so you you have to
have the best people just likeAcme Inc.
back here you know in the US orany country together all the
recruiting districts are findingenough people to go off to Navy
(38:15):
boot camp, marine boot camp, AirForce boot camp, because one of
the things about the militarythat's a little bit different
than the private sector is ifyou have a 13 year tenured
person as a product developer oran engineer and they leave a
role, we open up a role and wego find somebody who's got the
(38:36):
experiences and skills and webring them in laterally it's
much tougher in the militarywhen you lose someone after 8,
10, 12 years of training youhave to be growing your next
person because we can't just gofind that and bring it in.
And so the idea of therecruiting we're also doing is
(38:59):
the best recruiting tool in mymind is always retaining your
best people, right?
And so there are people who arein boot camp right now and the
Navy knows that we need Xpercentage of them to serve 20
years.
So we've got people who havethrough stepping stone of
(39:22):
experiences are prepared to dothat job 18 years from now.
And so that taught me a lotabout finding great people and
making sure that you're notconvincing them to do it.
It's what they want to do.
So there's that piece and thenanother piece about military
recruiting that is informed howI lead and recruit now is we all
(39:45):
know how hard it is, you know,after somebody signs an offer
letter wherever they are andacross the globe to make sure
they show up right and so theidea of we have to wait two
weeks for James to show up or 60days in you know in some
countries with notice periodsthat can seem like forever and
(40:05):
the organization needs to do agreat job to keep you engaged
across that 60 day period so youshow up on day one and get your
badge and your laptop and go towork.
In the military people are oftensigning up and they're not going
to start for eight, 10, 12months.
And so how do you keep someoneexcited and engaged about what
(40:28):
they signed up to do for theirnext job for that period of time
it just takes a level of effortrecruiting doesn't end when you
get the offer letter signed itcontinues to they show up when
they're supposed to and then howdo we help them thrive when they
join how do we help make surethat they achieve their personal
(40:50):
and professional objectiveswhile they're with our
organization so they stay.
And you know this could take usoff on a whole nother path but
I've always been fortunate inseeking organizations that
invest in the growth of ourpeople because we have to retain
them to continue to deliver forour customers and whatever uh
the mission of the organizationis I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (41:14):
And I'm I'm excited to get into some of your your
top uh takeaways as a TA leaderand and what you focus on uh
before we jump into that thoughthere was like one story in your
military career that we didn'thave a chance to talk about that
I definitely want to um and thenyou were talking about when you
were in flight school rememberyou you told me that story about
(41:35):
the acrobatic solo that you weredoing so I would love if you
could tell us that story andmaybe just give some background
of like what any kind of termsmean that are more like you know
uh insider specific but we we'dlove to hear that story.
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Sure.
Um a couple things to set upthat example one of the things
you learn early on is and Ithink this applies to all jobs
you don't get in an airplane youstrap the aircraft on and it
becomes an extension of yourselfregardless of the size it is.
(42:11):
And so for a race car driverit's the car for us when we're
commuting, but you're strappingthat on and it is now an
extension of yourself.
The next piece is three thingsyou learn are you aviate,
navigate communicate in thatorder.
And why that's important isbecause when something changes
whether it's an emergency or badweather or whatever you have to
(42:33):
fly the plane safely first thennavigate.
So make sure you keep the planelevel and flying navigate to
make sure you don't fly intosomething you shouldn't and then
the third piece is communicate.
You do it in that order becauseif you start talking and trying
to let people know what's goingon and the airplane gets away
from you you know it's it's inthe news mishaps happen.
(42:56):
So you aviate navigatecommunicate and that is
instilled in us from day one.
And that now translates to whensomething happens at work or in
life fly the plane first takethat deep breath think about
what's going on make sure you'resafe in control then think about
the next step so you don't flyinto something and then the
(43:19):
third piece is tell people whatyou're doing.
And again because I think youfacilitate these fun
conversations I shared with youthe idea that uh after you learn
how to fly the plane safely inflight school and you've done
your solo, you move intoaerobatics and formation flying
to hone your skills and developsome new skills.
(43:40):
And in doing aerobatics you dothings that your body's not
quite used to and when I was outon my aerobatics solo and I was
doing my first um loop we'vepracticed it a ton with an
instructor uh before you go doit yourself.
And so you follow the processyou get all set up and you've
(44:01):
done it so you know what toexpect.
And when I was doing my firstone the adrenaline is crazy.
Your brain's thinking about athousand million things at the
same time as you're goingthrough it I just remember as I
was approaching the top of theloop it just didn't feel right.
And I I I can't describe it butit's a combination of
(44:21):
weightlessness and yet G's onyou to keep you in so you can
safely complete the loop.
And it just didn't feel rightand a million things go through
my head to include am I sensingthis wrong?
If I mess this up the airplane'sgonna be out of control and then
you've got to miss just amillion things going through
(44:42):
your head.
You think about your family allthe and I just Because of the
training we had, the aviate,navigate, communicate, I simply
just pulled the stick a littlebit closer to me, and all of a
sudden it felt normal.
And I finished it and came outof it.
And one, it was exhilarating todo by yourself, that the Navy
trusts you to take this airplaneand go do it and practice and
(45:04):
bring it back safely.
But the other piece that stayedwith me across my life is that
we prepare, we train, you'reready.
And when you're doing somethingand it doesn't seem right,
there's this combination of ifyou've done all these other
pieces, sometimes we have totrust our instincts, our gut,
and maybe make that little tweakor make that hard change.
(45:29):
But to make sure you come out ofthe loop safely, you have to do
it.
Because if you don't, there aresome unwelcome consequences.
And so that has just stuck withme through my personal and
professional life.
SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
Some really good lessons there.
So the aviate, navigate,communicate, that is so
applicable to everything.
And then again, it feels likesome of the best advice I feel
like after the fact is like, ohyeah, like of course, but it's
stuff that you don't necessarilythink about.
Like that's to me often the bestadvice I get.
It feels like common sense afteryou heard it, but you never
(46:05):
would have thought of it withoutbeing able to learn from other
people.
Uh but yeah, it's like this justthe basic principle of like,
look, if something doesn't feelright, like change it.
You know, um, it's probablybecause something isn't.
And uh what's so cool about thatexperience that you had is that
it was probably so emotionallyengaging and such like a almost
(46:29):
like a peak experience that itprobably like really
psychologically just instilledthat principle in you more than
if you were just learning it ina classroom, right?
Because it you know, to someextent, it was probably a pretty
intense moment that instilledthat lesson.
SPEAKER_01 (46:46):
You're absolutely right.
And and I know that's why theNavy gives us all the that
experience in flight school isto experience that and take it
forward with us, share it withour crews, share it with others,
and it's that you know, youknow, the Aviate Navigate
Communicate is another one ofthese short one-liners, you
know, that help me stay focusedand and trying to be successful
(47:12):
at life.
The uh another one is just thethe pebble in the pond, right?
And the ripples go out, anddepending on how big the pond
is, you never know where theripples are gonna end.
And that that one I think is thethe ripples continue to go
across my life and rememberingyou know some of these lessons
we've talked about um in ourconversation today.
SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
So I'd I'd love to talk to you about right now
you've held multiple talentacquisition leadership roles.
Now you're in a role ahead oftalent role.
So are you overseeing people opsand talent acquisition now, or
is it exclusively talentacquisition?
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
It's right now it's it's TA focused.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Okay, got it.
So at this point, you've run uhtalent acquisition recruiting uh
for the Navy, you've done it inthe private sector.
Um, I believe Barracuda's thetech industry, right?
It's a tech company, is thatright?
SPEAKER_01 (48:05):
Cybersecurity company, you know, we're uh a
leading provider to keep ourcustomers and their clients safe
against all the threats.
SPEAKER_00 (48:17):
You might um be interested, by the way.
We uh recorded an episode withthe CEO of Tenable uh probably a
couple of years ago, publiclytraded cyber company.
Um, I think probably two yearsago at this point.
I'll look for it and I'll I'llfind it.
You might find it interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (48:32):
But I'm sure I would.
SPEAKER_00 (48:34):
He ran uh he's a president of RSA and a couple of
um cyber startups that sold tolike the you know the big big
players.
SPEAKER_01 (48:42):
So definitely go listen.
Our our CEO before joiningBarracuda was CEO of RSA.
SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
Well, yeah, so there's a tie-in.
Yeah, yeah.
So he was president of RSA, ourguest, um probably 10 plus years
ago.
I don't know exactly, but uh um,anyways, uh something possibly
interesting for you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:04):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (49:05):
Yeah, of course.
Okay, so as a as a TA leader nowat Barracuda and at what would
you say for other townacquisition leaders and and
other executives, really anyonewho wants to build phenomenal
teams, what are the top lessonslearned or takeaways that you
can share?
SPEAKER_01 (49:21):
That's a good question because it really it's
a forcing function.
We all have a thousand thingsthat either we have to do or
want to do.
Nobody has the bandwidth orcapability, well, maybe some
people do from a resourcesperspective, to do them all.
And so for me, it's you have tobe laser focused on the top
(49:42):
couple that help your team moveforward.
And so for us, it is this jobone is recruiting people who can
accelerate the business.
Every role, I think you and Ieven talked about this.
Every role is really a businessproblem to be solved.
And how do you find the personor persons who can help your
(50:04):
organization?
So for us, it's staying laserfocused on delivering people who
are going to accelerate thebusiness.
And it's not just putting anyonein there, it's it's people who
are gonna make the organizationbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (50:17):
So one of the things that I found interesting when we
were talking uh before recordingwas um you talked about
unleashing recruiters.
And I wanted to see if you couldwhat exactly do you mean by
that?
SPEAKER_01 (50:29):
Uh so it it falls right from that first piece,
which is if if that's their jobone, if that's our collective
job one, we've got some guidancein place.
But I'm a believer that peopleshould be able to be the verb
that their job is.
So recruit, market, sell,develop.
(50:50):
And so for recruiters torecruit, I hope if you were to
talk to recruiters who've beenpart of my teams, and I've had
the opportunity to work with andlead, is that they get to run
their desk.
They understand what thepriorities are, but they get to
do it the way that helps thempartner with their hiring
managers, with their interviewteams, with the business leaders
(51:13):
they're working with, with theHR business partners who play
such a key role in all of thisto understand the business and
then find great people.
We have metrics that we'rereporting on and that we share
with the business.
And that's a a piece that we'retrying to get better at, I'm
(51:35):
trying to get better at.
But so the recruiters aren't outthere in the wild, wild west, so
to speak.
Their objectives and goals wehave, but how they go about it,
how they structure their day,that's up to them.
And we talk about it, so Iunderstand there are some
recruiters who are verystructured, and there are others
(51:59):
who just do things differently,we'll say.
And we need all kinds becausethere are different roles where
you know about a difficulthiring manager or a really tough
role that takes somebody who canthink differently and ask the
right question.
Um, and so you know, unleashingrecruiters, uh, because they
(52:21):
have this, in my mind, the bestthe best recruiters have some
insane skills in terms ofthey're really good listeners.
They don't just hear what Lanceor James is saying.
What are they telling me?
And they can pick up on thingswhere the examples they're
(52:41):
giving can tell a recruiter,well, you'd be much better for a
different role.
And because they're listening ina way that it's not to assess to
eliminate, but it's it's like agood sales organization.
How can I get this company tobuy our product, whether it's
now or in three years, ifrecruiters are thinking about
(53:03):
the needs of, in this case,Barracuda, when I hear something
from James that's like, you knowwhat, you're not right for this
site reliability engineer rolenow, but I heard something that
because I'm partnering with thebusiness and I know what's
happening in a couple ofquarters, I'm gonna maintain
this relationship because Idon't want to start at the post
(53:25):
and hope someone applies thathas the skills and experiences
and then have to go through thewhole process.
I'm gonna start with somebodyI'm already getting to know.
And so we try and nurture thoserelationships.
So recruiters are they're reallygood listeners.
And they also have this, we liketo talk about the have the
dotted line relationship.
(53:47):
So if you were to open upworkday right now, you would see
recruiters who are part of theTA organization and they
directly report to me or totheir manager.
What I really like is when arecruiter builds a relationship
with a business that leader orthat hiring manager thinks about
that person as part of theirorganization.
(54:07):
And they might even want tofight you over it.
It's like, no, James is part ofmy team.
It's like that's what you wantto hear because you've now
created that dotted line totheir org where you're being
invited to QBRs and their townhalls and any kind of strategic
planning session, they'regetting to know the business.
(54:28):
One, it helps them assess andget the right people in, but it
also shows a respect for thebusiness in the sense that who
doesn't get excited to talkabout what they do.
And so that's a great way tolearn the business.
And then if the recruiter islearning these things about the
business, if they've sat in onsome interviews or maybe a
(54:52):
working session, a whiteboardsession, the team has, they can
take that.
And when I'm talking to acandidate, you've got a couple
of moments to get Jamesinterested in this role.
And when they can give you aglimpse into the day in the life
of the role and why what you'regonna do here can have impact
(55:13):
and aligns to the personal andprofessional goals that they've
been pulling out of candidatesduring their conversations, it
just helps us align to thepeople who are gonna accelerate
the business, if not in thisrole now, when the right role
pops up for them.
SPEAKER_00 (55:30):
And that really ties into just generally speaking,
building strong and lastingrelationships, which I think the
quick bullet point takeaway isunleashing recruiters, right?
Like, and it sounds like that'sa combination of a lot of
things, but to some extent, it'salso sounds like you're giving
them ownership to do thingstheir own way.
(55:50):
And I think ownership and buy-ingo hand in hand.
Folks are able to have someindependence in how they
approach doing their job.
I I've learned this, I want tosay the hard way, or maybe just
took time.
I don't know if it was necessaryhard.
Just like I've been running mycompany for a decade now.
So I've been around for aminute, you know, I've led a lot
of individuals and helpedhundreds of companies hire.
(56:13):
I've seen a lot of cultures.
And I think what I've learned ispeople typically perform better
or they take ownership of theiroutcomes more when they have
more influence over how they dotheir job.
And so it's this balancing actof having consistency,
particularly as you start toscale, but it's also about
providing flexibility andallowing ownership.
(56:35):
And so I try to find the rightbalance.
And I think it's it's unique toevery organization, it's always
a little different.
But what I try to, I don't want,you know, if somebody wins, I
want them to feel like it's it'sit's a team win, but it's also
like they made that impact.
And also if if they don't getthe outcome they want, I don't
want them to feel like, well, Icould have, if I had been able
(56:57):
to, if I was trusted to do itthe way I wanted to do it, we
could have gotten a betteroutcome.
And so I try to be flexible.
I I set the star.
I say this is what I want tohave happen.
You could within that do it,right?
And if of course, if there'schallenges, then maybe there has
to be a little more structurewhy I step in and say, okay,
like we need to do more of this,you need to do a little of that.
(57:20):
But I I think that's acritically important leadership
lesson.
SPEAKER_01 (57:24):
Yeah, I think you've got another one of your graphs
there with how do you stay onthe that happy point of the
line, if you will, betweenfreedom and outcomes.
And different people are ondifferent parts of that
trajectory.
Again, it's fun that we can seeeach other because as you're
(57:46):
telling me that, I can see yourbrain working and you're
lighting up talking about that.
So this is fun.
SPEAKER_00 (57:52):
Yeah, it's a it's a lot of fun.
Looking through my notes, andum, I mean, there's so many, so
many good things to talk about.
I think what I want to make surethat we we cover is I would love
to hear about how yourdefinition of success has
changed from maybe the you knowformative life experiences,
(58:13):
right, to as a young adult tonow being in your prime
overseeing a large organization,like and also, of course, the
personal journey as well.
How's that changed over theyears?
SPEAKER_01 (58:26):
I like the way you're asking the question, not
just the question, because ithas changed, you know, just in
the examples that that we'vediscussed, once upon a time, my
goals were to achieve thehighest rank I could and the
most responsibility in the Navy.
And I was very fortunate toachieve some of that.
(58:48):
And it's helped me understandlife.
And I think so.
What's changed is that I'm a lotmore focused on how I see
success is it starts at homewith my family, you know, or is
my family thriving?
Because I work hard to try andprovide for my family.
And so we're always, again, onone of these graphs, right?
(59:10):
Trying to find that rightbalance.
And sometimes work overtakeshome life.
And that happens to be good atour job, to fulfill our
responsibilities.
And there are other times wherewhat's going on in our personal
lives influences work and youcan't do it.
And that's when you needteammates to pick you up.
And so as I think about that,you know, just seeing my family
(59:34):
be successful, and then insteadof more about my own success in
terms of climbing a ladder oftitles or something, I just have
really come to think about it interms of people I've had the
chance to influence and thatI've been influenced by.
And um, I'm not as great as Iwould like to be in terms of
(59:55):
keeping up with even some of thepeople I've talked about who've
influenced me in today'sconversation.
But the fact that I've had thechance to build this
professional network and thiscommunity that I'm part of,
where um I'm still talking withpeople I served with in the
Navy, you know, we go back morethan 20 years, and recruiters
(01:00:17):
and other leaders that I'veworked with in my now uh time in
the private sector, um, thatwe're still connected and
learning from and with eachother.
Um, is just that's more how Iview it.
It it translates back to, Ithink a lot of people might be
familiar with David Brooks's hisfamous article on um the eulogy
(01:00:39):
resume.
And just we we focus so much onour work resume, but the one
that counts the most is just thelife resume.
And so I just really value itwhen I have the chance to impact
somebody and you know they'rethinking about their next job or
next step in life if it's mykids.
Uh so that's that's more how Ithink about success is is
(01:01:01):
through others.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:03):
Yeah, I love that.
It's uh getting back to tying inwhat you help others see as
impact, and it's like thinkingabout impact for yourself in
your life, right?
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:10):
And yeah, and because I get so much out of it
too that it's gratifying.
And and I'm sitting here withyou just feeling uh really
grateful.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:20):
Well, I love it.
Lance, I've really enjoyed thisuh conversation and I'm I'm
grateful as well.
Thanks for coming on today andand sharing your story.
It's been a lot of fun, and wegot some really cool ones.
I I love the acrobatic loopstory.
That's uh that's pretty freakingcool.
I was trying to put myself inyour shoes, and I was like, man,
that sounds sounds pretty scary,honestly.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:42):
Well, I I don't know about that, but but the irony
about that is that you reallydon't do there's no really, you
don't do those kind of maneuversin a P3.
Um but again, the impact it hadon me and how when you strap the
aircraft on, um, just like inanything, there's opportunity
and responsibility.
(01:02:03):
And that combination of the twois just it's exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (01:02:07):
It yeah, it is.
It's a great, great story, greattakeaways.
Well, Lance, thank you.
Thanks for joining us today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:14):
Oh, thank you, James.
So appreciate what you're doing.
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