November 15, 2022 • 38 mins
David King Lassman is an entrepreneur with over 25 years of experience in EdTech, AdTech and digital content spaces. David led GIGXR in the acquisition of the Immersive Learning Group, a division of Pearson PLC, the world’s largest education publisher. He has overseen the business as it grew its presence across four continents. Today, he focuses on growing the Company’s brand as its Chief Evangelist.
David’s first company, Doublestruck Ltd, provided teacher support software products to over 95% of the UK school market until the company was acquired by AQA, the UK’s largest examination board. In 1999, he founded and was the CEO of Connextra Ltd, a UK-based Internet business providing online marketing, analytical and contextual advertising solutions to the global betting industry, where he led the business through two investment rounds to profitability and a trade sale in 2005. David has been at the forefront of the flourishing So Cal startup ecosystem, founding and supporting startups in the digital content space while growing his venture fund and consulting company, Whitehart Ventures.
On the podcast, David and Chris a had great chat about luck, timing and perseverance in business. Is there a place for emotionally-driven entrepreneurs or, at the end of the day, is the rule book the only path to success? Knowing when to let go of a business that isn’t working is one of the greatest challenges an entrepreneur faces, especially when they are still convinced by the vision… but cutting the cord can be a liberating experience and the lessons you can take with you from your failures will help drive your successes as you move forward.
Innovating within a new technology paradigm presents its own challenges. Part of the battle is educating users about the medium before you can talk about the value proposition of the solution. But if you can get to show someone how a new technology can make an existing challenge easier to execute, chances are you will be able to win them over.
Most importantly, the joy from the arrival of a new puppy trumps all things.
Chris mentioned David’s own podcast – ExploreXR – and in particular the episode with Luke DeVore from Unity. Listen to it here: https://explore-xr.simplecast.com/episodes/luke-devore
Website: https://www.gigxr.com/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dkl64/
In case you inspired to support men's health through the Movember campaign, learn more here: https://movember.com/m/chrisparkernl
The Business Simplicity Podcast is where leaders share their most successful strategies and the failures that inspired them so you can avoid the suffering and reap the benefits.
Guests have a wide diversity of backgrounds. We highlight people from around the world working in the environment, education, entertainment, and many other industries. Simplify your thinking to accelerate your business!
#ebullient #business #simplicity #podcast #movember
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
The business Simplicity podcast,where leaders share the most
successful strategies, and the failures that inspires them to
business owners, and managers can avoid the suffering and reap
the benefits with your host, Chris Parker.
And welcome back to that business Simplicity podcast.
(00:24):
This is Chris Parker, and I'm having a conversation with David
King lossman, and he is a founder.
And in was the CEO of gig X are in the mixed reality space.
And we're going to get into all of that.
Really, really curious. We were introduced from my, my
sister, right? And yeah, David purchased, an
(00:45):
animal from her and maybe we'll get into that part of the story
as well. But before we start, I do want
to do a quick plug. If you're watching this on
video, I've got my mustache coming in and that's about
movember in movember is what happens every year and it's you
know, celebrating the need for investment in improvements in
men's health, physical health, mental health.
(01:08):
What one thing that we learned from of Embers suicide is one of
the leading deaths of men between 25 and 45 which is
that's shocking, you know, they don't understand.
So if anyone's Sit in supportingthat I'll put a link in there so
you can donate to movember. Or if you're not willing to or
(01:29):
interested in donating, my suggestion is just call someone
who you're you care about and ask them how they're doing and
maybe that can be, you know whatpeople want, what people need
just to brighten their day. So so with that.
David can you kick us off with, you know?
And I'm so curious about this question, like, what is it that
(01:50):
you that you Do David. So you correctly introduced me
as a founder and the next chief executive officer.
So let's start with the former. So, as a Founder, I'm sure your
audience knows, you know, a Founder establishes a company.
(02:11):
I've been a Serial entrepreneur,my whole life.
I started my first business longer than I care to admit.
I don't know what's in the 80s. Sorry, early 80s actually
started that to finance my Through Music School assuming
that I be a musician by the timeI graduated Music School.
My business was doing quite wellfor the whole that's that's,
(02:32):
that's nice. You know, I've got a little bit
of money and getting an apartment in central London and
that's that, that was cool. And I thought I'll go back to
music eventually and I just do this next thing and this next
thing and like, I guess I got a bit of a bug, I've got a bit of
a bug for starting things, starting businesses, and that's
(02:52):
the part. Part of establishing a business
that I love the most. Those early days, you know,
where you're trying to pluck something, out of The Ether and
you build a vision and a strategy for executing against
that Vision in the roll, up yoursleeves and you work really,
really hard for years and you ask yourself everyday, is this
(03:12):
worth it? Because I'm not making any money
and you're not sure if the business is going to work or not
but you believe it will. And so it was with this latest
venture the gigs are, which I found it in well formally in
2019 when the company was incorporated but I've been
working on the idea for some time before that.
(03:35):
And you know it was me and I brought in a couple of guys and
started building out a little bit of a team and then we raised
a little bit of money and the rest of the little bit more
money and this notion of idea started to gestate and develop
and and then we started to get customers and we started saying
hey wait a minute. this is actually, it's actually my work
(03:58):
and and then we had a business and we were employing a bunch of
people and we were selling all over the world and as a founder
and as a chief executive officer, I had lots and lots of
responsibilities and managing the business on a day-to-day
basis, isn't even with your board and do you with HR issues
(04:20):
and try to keep everything together and I will hold my head
up and say, that that's not really the best use of my time.
All of that sort of day-to-day stuff and the idea of bringing
somebody in to kind of steer theship a little bit and take hold
of the reins, and it was very appealing.
(04:40):
And thankfully now we have an absolutely phenomenal CEO who's
doing all the right things, you know, he's fantastic with the
team and he's fantastic at helping to drive the strategy
and he's great at talking to investors and and that leaves me
free what to do things like thisChris White.
(05:01):
Spend some time chatting with you and to continue to nurture
the relationships that we have with someone very, very
important partners and The new opportunities in the market,
whether it's working with great medical institutions to help,
try product, or brake technologycompanies that could be
complementary to what we're doing, you know, getting on
(05:22):
stages and speaking about what big XR is doing and evangelizing
the fishy. I'm curious if maybe the ask
that question is a little bit different is, how would you
define for you? What is the absolute best use of
your time? Like, of all those things you
could be doing, what, what is, what is that?
Super power of that magic, that is the absolute best investment
(05:46):
of your time through the different companies you founded.
Yeah, I mean, that's a good question and it's one that I
will probably on stiffly, depending on the business.
So one of the challenges that wehave in this business is we're
working within a medium called mixed reality and mixed reality
is a very nascent medium, we're very familiar, Virtual reality
(06:10):
where users are fully immersed in a digital world.
The physical secluded mixed reality uses devices like
Microsoft hololens magically, they have a clear visor so I can
see the physical world. I could see you if you were and
I was in the room with you but in the space between us, we can
(06:31):
broadcast holographic content and we augment the physical
world with digital content in a way that affords tremendous New
Opportunities. So one of the things we have to
do as a business operating within this new paradigm, is we
need to educate. So I think the part of my job is
very much going out there and saying everything about mixed
(06:55):
reality. And let me tell you about why
mixed reality is really, really powerful and really good and why
you need to embrace it. And if you are a medical
institution and your training medical professionals, mixed
reality has a A very, very sensible Solution that's going
to be able to address some of the most challenging and complex
(07:18):
elements of the way that you teach and the way that you learn
and the way that you retrain andwe'll drive real value, let me
show you how. So I think that's a very
important part of what I'm doing.
And just really putting the brand out there.
(07:39):
You know, our ambition is strong, we want to be the de
facto standard platform for the delivery of mixed reality
training in health care, right across the board on a global
scale. And there's a lot of work that
we need to do to entrench that position.
And it's not just about selling product.
We got fantastic sales people wegot a global sales force to the
(08:00):
doing that really, really well but it's Out building those
relationships. You know, it would require a
huge amount of hubris to think that we could do that all on our
own. We can't, you know, we need to
stand on the shoulders of other Giants.
Whether they're tremendous medical institutions, like
Cambridge University Hospitals. For instance, with whom we've
(08:21):
collaborated on Building Producttogether or Michigan medicine
out here in North America. You know, working with these
guys to say, hey look, here's what we can do.
Help us steer Act in a way that's going to drive value.
And part of my job is helping tobuild those relationships.
(08:42):
In addition to the relationship and as founder and on LinkedIn,
they also call you the chief evangelist and sounds like, it's
really Evangelical work. Something is New or I don't call
it abstract but like, with mixedreality.
What's the best way to land that, you know, because it's is
(09:05):
this something that people have to experience physically before.
It really the penny drops or is this something that, you know, I
can't imagine. You can send them a white paper
of text, and they would go have an aha moment.
So eventually they need to, you know, connect that to that.
All that training issue and go. Oh wow.
(09:27):
Yeah, how do you get how do you get to the?
Oh wow. Yeah that's a great question.
And actually something that I think has been consistent across
all of the companies that I've found it that when they've all
been in sort of emerging Tech, or they've all produced a
(09:47):
technology that takes something that people do and uses
technology to make it easier. Easier or more engaging and more
exciting or whatever. I'm going to think about one of
my companies. If that my one of my favorite
businesses, that didn't succeed,actually a company called by
clone, which I founded in 2011, with, with the great Joe Sumner.
(10:10):
And, you know, Joe is a fantastic rock musician.
Came to me and said, hey look, Iplayed this gig at a big Stadium
last night. And next day, they were like 500
videos on YouTube from like Rosie.
And the sound was terrible and Iwas just a DOT somewhere far in
the distance and B, if I could take all those videos and bring
them together into one continuous video, you know,
(10:31):
wouldn't that be cool? How can I do that?
It's nothing. That does that?
That's really difficult to do. Let's see if we can fix that.
And so we went on this wonderfulJourney where we build a
technology that takes videos recording on mobile devices.
Send them up to the cloud magically. synchronizes them on
a timeline and then, Algorithm really cuts the video from all
(10:54):
the best angles with one audio Source underneath it.
Producing this beautiful video and I'm going to name drop here,
right? So we would work when we were
trying to raise money and we have some good Connections in in
the entertainment industry. And we met this guy who knew a
guy who knew a guy who said you know this is the kind of thing.
Ashton Kutcher would be really interested in.
(11:18):
And so, the next thing we know, we're in Ashton's trailer on the
set of Two and a Half Men and hecan't.
He's great guy, very, very smartand he says, so tell me what you
do. And I said, I'm going to show
you what we do and we took out our mobile phones and we
recorded a 30-second video. And a minute later, we returned
(11:42):
from our server. This beautiful video from each
of those angles with one good audio source. it and we said, we
just made this multi-angle moviein a minute and he went That's
brilliant right now. If I hadn't have had the ability
to demonstrate that technology, I would have had to have gone
(12:02):
through a PowerPoint deck, and lots of slides and lots of
models and go-to-market strategy, he saw the magic and
he immediately jumped in and backed it.
Literally got term sheet the next day.
Similarly, with this business, if I had to describe to you
right now, what we do, you know,you might get a little bit zoned
(12:26):
out, but if you had a headset on, or if you were accessing our
technology through your mobile device and we were running
through how you learn, a particular medical procedure or
how do you identify some condition that this person is
suffering from? And you see that person in your
(12:47):
room, the room next to you and you're able to walk around that
person and you see me and I say,hey look, maybe if you pick up a
stethoscope and put it on this woman's chest, tell me what you
hear, you get that sort of jaw-dropping moment being able
to demonstrate a technology thatpeople have never experienced
before, and they then make the association to how they can use
(13:10):
this to do something that is that the traditionally what
they've done is is done it with mannequins like these.
Inanimate plastic, life-size mannequins.
That you put on a gurney in a simulation lab and it all comes
alive. So our challenge was I don't to
(13:30):
get the phone with you and tell you about what we do.
I want to get in the room with you and show you what we do.
What on your podcast, explore XRand maybe you can unpack that a
bit as well, but one of the podcast episodes I listened to
was someone maybe from Unity, who was explaining the training
(13:53):
need, and it was, it was like like field triage and trying to
train people on how to stop the bleeding of someone who howling
in pain and cursing you. And And intuitively.
The last thing you would want todo is actually apply pressure to
that wound but through training that's realistic training.
(14:18):
People can overcome that and actually do the right thing
despite the human, you know, emotional reaction, which would
be to do something else. Right.
I think that's incredible. Is how are those types of?
Oh my God, training moments. Sort of part of your everyday
(14:40):
life is. Yeah.
So I'm very jealous. So, that's that poster was, was
with Luke 24, a who does work atunity and had a background in
the military and he's terrific. He's a Visionary, and he's
great. And people should definitely
listen to that podcast because he's really insightful.
(15:00):
So I think one of the things that's very difficult in the,
when we think about training medical professionals is that
you can learn Learn the basics and you can practice, you know,
how to suture on a piece of foam.
But when you get into clinical experience in somebody's
actually screaming or moving everything changes.
(15:24):
So how do we use technology to better?
Prepare those students for the clinical experience?
I'll give you a perfect example.We're working with some great
Folks at the University of Michigan here in North America.
And one of the Consultants that I was chatting with was saying
very common procedure that everyevery doctor needs to learn,
it's an NG tubes, where you put a tube up the nose down into the
(15:46):
stomach, Look to either take fluid output, fluid, in very
common procedure and you practice it on a mannequin.
What you don't learn when you'repracticing on a mannequin.
Is that as soon as this cheap hits the back of the nose and
hits nasal membrane? There's a reaction the head
jumps or for patient sneezes andthen when it goes back at the
(16:08):
throat, the patient moves and lurches.
You cannot recreate that with the piece of plastic, When you
see that being done holographically and we can do
things like we can work out, youknow, how far that you've that
holographic tubes going to nose in that when it hits a certain
point, we can animate the patient to respond in a certain
way The Stingers. Oh yeah I get that that's going
(16:32):
to happen. So now I'm ready for that when
I'm doing it for real now and the military, they got a whole
bunch of other problems that they've got to deal with.
So imagine being first of all, every member of the military has
to have a certain amount of basic Medical Call training, you
know, you're on the Frontline. Something happens to your pal,
he gets a severe leg wound. You got to treat and you can't
(16:53):
wait for a qualified doctor to get there.
And I think the example that Luke was talking about baucus is
doing a tourniquet. Yeah, you do a tourniquet.
The guy is aptly screen because it hurts to apply to indicate
that you've got to keep going because you got to stop the
blood, no matter how this creamy.
But meanwhile, all around, you know, bullets might be flying
and bonded going off. So if you can simulate that in a
(17:16):
hyper realistic environment, wearing a headset and you know,
okay? I know bullets are going off
around but I still got stay focused.
I still got to do this job. I know this guy's screaming and
reacting in his body's moving but I got a hold him down.
I got to get it done because otherwise he's going to die
right. When that moment, comes heaven
forbid that you're actually on the front line at that is
(17:38):
happening. You are going to be better
prepared because you've gone through a rigorous hyper
realistic training. Program that prepares you for
clinical experience in a way that no other technology can.
And anyone in the medical profession, when they see this
up close and personal, Any dropsand they go.
Yes. I get it.
And I need it. And I will include that in the
(18:02):
show notes that the link to thatepisode and there's a number of
episodes. It's, it's a fun podcast because
you're too technology-based podcast, but you you seem to
really talk about the, the humanDimension there, which is really
fun. The The question is, is emerging
is with gig XR? It's mixed reality.
(18:22):
I'm curious on is how did you choose the the use case or the
industry segments? And for me it's a bit of a
selfish question because a number of years ago is I was
involved in a big data data analytics, start up with some
people that had worked with the NSA, we had the best of everyone
and we were never able to Niche down to an industry and we after
about a year and a half we we folded it because there was not
(18:47):
Incredible technical capability without connecting to an actual
repeatable, sellable problem. How with the with gig XR?
Did you Embark down the medical training path?
Because I can imagine, there's an endless amount of use cases,
that would be equally as interesting, so, why this Tech
(19:08):
to that problem. So, don'ts that question, we got
to go back a little bit to the Genesis of the business.
So in 2015, Microsoft ahead of the launch of their Holland and
mixed reality device approached Pearson who's one of the world's
leading educational Publishers and said.
Look, if we invest them some dollars into your company, will
(19:32):
you fire up a little unit to build some applications for the
hololens. So when the hololens hits the
market, there's some good content that people can interact
with and piercing put together ateam of a dozen or so people.
All out of the UK office and they built five applications.
Two of those applications were medical training applications.
(19:55):
The other three were K through 12 products and when Pearson was
going through a big restructuring, they would the
vesting of that unit and I bought it, right?
So that, that was the Genesis ofgygax are and what I saw, Back
then was the opportunity. Not to operate as a Content
(20:16):
company. I don't think there's a future.
There would have been a future. Would it interesting future if
we just become a company that builds a bunch of apps, what I
thought was a tremendous opportunity was, let's build a
platform upon which we develop abroad wide constellation of
applications, all managed through a single dashboard and
(20:40):
that was interesting. I think that there was a very
strong case for developing something like that, it's a
well-trodden path. And in fact, the first business
I had, which was an ed Tech business was exactly built on
that same mod, right? So we had a business that
produced test papers linked to examiner's, reports and marks
(21:02):
keeps the national curriculum. And so on headquartered the UK
and we had one platform and you could have your English and your
maths and your drug-free and whatever it might be.
And each year, we'd updated withthe most recent example westerns
and relink. It's the latest National
curriculum and once to teachers bought it on school sport it,
(21:22):
they just paid that licensure onyou.
It's a very very good well-trodden model.
The headset, the mixed reality, headsets are quite expensive.
So the hololens is today's threeand a half thousand dollars.
My magic leaves same sort of allpart.
We know prices are going to comedown.
We know they're going to be moretechnology companies coming to
Market but right now that That wipes out the K through 12
(21:45):
Market schools can't afford to spend hundreds of thousands of
dollars on Hardware. So this was clearly either
Enterprise or higher ed and Health Care is interesting
because as I said earlier, this kind of technology is able to
address some of the most difficult and challenging parts
of the curriculum. The things we can't always see
(22:06):
the way people. React, to certain procedures
being done to them and Sport, wecan mimic that So Healthcare
seemed a good place to start. And then, as we started to
really look into the industry. Realize it's a really, really
big space. All right, that's a tempting for
a company like ours. Say, hey look, we've got this
(22:26):
fantastic. Underlying technology, that
lends itself to many, many different verticals.
You're quite right about that, right?
We could, we could spin this outinto architecture or HR or
whatever it might be. Just about anything anywhere
where there's a an element of learning or retraining this kind
(22:48):
of Technology would work. The healthcare education Market
is a multi multi multi billion Global Market.
That I think we can go a long way to establishing a really
strong presence in and if we didnothing else, we'd be able to
build a very strong business in that one, vertical alone So our
(23:09):
strategy is no. The market were in know, it
really, really well, build, verystrong relationships with the
best. The best Brands out there in the
space. Attack it on a global scale,
which we are doing and really stay laser focused II know.
It's very tempting in startups to be Broad and say, hey, we can
(23:32):
do this and we can do that and we do that and there the
companies that tend to struggle to succeed So we ever going to
get into other verticals? I'm not going to say no.
But for the foreseeable future with very, very happy being in
healthcare and I'm currently on a board of a startup that that
(23:53):
my my company I work with Acquired and we're constantly
having this discussion of a focus versus Revenue, you know?
So it's some point you have to sell to you know, feed the
troops or find financing it. Another way.
And it's but having that discipline to choose that patch
(24:16):
and nail, it is great. So I'm Starting to wrap up
slightly, but I'm really curiousabout the Vie clone story that
we started and didn't finish. And I'm curious if was, was this
crossing the chasm issue or, or vertical issue the and let me
(24:39):
share, why probably 10 years ago, I was in a team that was
conceptualizing The exact same product for sports, but more
Community Sports because we werethinking like, well, wait, if
parents were at their videoing their football or soccer match?
(25:01):
And if they were able to merge that together, then we it
collapsed in business cases and stuff, but it was, I love the
idea. So how did such an incredibly
awesome idea that you actually created to demo?
Like, That. How did that fail?
So, I've been in some ways, it didn't fail, you know, we had
(25:23):
millions of users and we have, we were producing phenomenal
products. Phenomenal videos, our
community, where we were apples video app of the Year in 2012.
It was a, it was a great, great product.
I think the reason it failed a number of things, one is there
was friction. You have to download an app.
(25:45):
And then every time you video something you had to video
through the app rather than video natively.
Know what I wanted was Apple to buy it and so every time you
video something a little pop up with say, Hey you know seven
people around you were videoing,same time in the same place.
Do you want to see what your video wouldn't like merge with
this? That would have been a winner.
Hmm. So there was a friction point
(26:07):
and we tried to deal with that by allowing people to upload a
video to event that they've recorded natively.
But you know who's going to do that?
Where it worked was in organizedevents or things like birthday
parties Rock concert, very very successful in the music space.
The other thing is we couldn't charge for this, right?
So what was the business model and that was a huge learning
curve, for me, that was it. We built it at a time, you know,
(26:30):
Web 2.0 was, it was All about getting downloads and eyeballs
and all of that sort of stuff but I couldn't monetize it.
I couldn't monetize it effectively, can we make some
money, but not enough. And I think the other thing that
we didn't have on our side Two things that a business like ours
(26:51):
would have needed to succeed. One is luck and want to timing
and we screwed up on both of those.
We just weren't lucky and interestingly no one's done this
instead of handful of companies have tried and they've gone
away. I'm I'm kind of shocked that
Facebook or Meda didn't do that with you know the community
(27:13):
video just to have an allowed with that says, hey we could
take all the video that was filmed at Burning Man.
And put it together. No, some mulch, just do it.
I'm surprised. They haven't, I'm sort of
surprised. Apple hasn't offered this as a
as a really good value at. You know even in get to some of
my favorite videos with a birthday parties and the kids
(27:34):
playing out the candles and somebody was filming mom's
almost feel me. Dad and some was feeling
Granddad and some was freaking the cake and the kid and got
this beautiful little video. So we can see gorgeous.
But yet luck timing friction. I think, the reason why it
didn't Work. And I the other lesson that I
learned from that was I kept it going because it was like my
(27:56):
little baby that I didn't keep adid and and somebody gave me
some very Salient advice which was you know sometimes when a
start-up is not working, it's like you're pulling this huge
boulder up a hill and it's really hard when you're doing
that alone and sometimes the best thing is to just cut the
rope and Let It Go which I couldn't Don't do I just didn't
(28:19):
it was, it was my baby. I couldn't do it.
I couldn't abandon it. And when I did, it was like a,
it was a huge relief because I replied in really struggled at
the end of it. Based on that.
What, how would, you know, when to cut the rope like, like, what
the whites, the wisdom there. Yeah, so I think part of that
is, about being honest with yourself and knowing that, you
(28:41):
know, if you can't establish a strong business case and don't
have line of sight, To the business time to say.
Okay let's quit or let's stop orlet's hibernate let's regroup
later, maybe that could be a wayto go.
I just I don't think I was honest with myself, I was
convinced that there was a business here because I thought
the idea was so good and becausetechnology we bought was so
(29:03):
good, it really worked with a really, really well.
But there wasn't a business and I should have known that
probably a year before I did with hindsight.
Isn't that a wonderful thing? I'm having another conversation
with gentleman her Falkirk off. Whose basic has been a life
(29:23):
coach for me. Used to be an Enterprise
architect at work for me back inthe day and that's an episode.
I'm going to do specifically formovember and it's about in the
workplace to Mental Health. Consequence of disappointment
because I okay, I'm in an MMA. You know, PE backed world right
now and we're acquiring companies and not all of The
(29:49):
Darlings of every company survives you know, the business
cases need to be reviewed. And and what I see is that can
be rather quite traumatic and itsounds like with with this
Venture, you were really emotionally vested in it.
And yeah. What is the, what is the
mentally healthy way of acknowledging that cutting that
(30:11):
cord grieving and moving on? You know, how did you do it?
It was it was it? How did you recover from that?
That's, that's like four, five, five years of your life.
Yeah. It was hot.
And you know, I think there are some people that probably do
that much better than others. I I'm definitely emotionally
(30:36):
LED. That's probably why I'm less
successful than I could have been.
If I'd have been cold hearted and ruthless and driven only by
data and numbers and business, which I knew I should be.
By the way, you know, maybe someof the outcomes would have been
slightly different and I like the fact that I've achieved
(30:57):
successes in my life without compromising, my moral core and
my principles. And I, I was even Kind of wise
enough if I may be so bold to know that some of the decisions
that I were taking, we're not necessarily the smartest ones
but they felt like the right ones.
(31:20):
My second business for instance,when the.com, bubble burst and
things, you know, we're really really tough, you know, I could
have done a management buyout and got rid of all of my
investors and sort of start afresh and and I couldn't do
that because I felt that they'vestood by me and I didn't have
(31:41):
the wherewithal to abandon them.So I came up with a deal that
sort of worked all around and they did okay and my team did
Okay, and we got the company where we sold it and everything,
you know, everything was was peachy and one of my best at the
time said, you know, bad call. You know, you weren't thinking
like a ruthless businessman. I said, well, I'm not a ruthless
(32:02):
businessman and which, by the way, that's one of the great
benefits of bringing a guy like Jared, who's our CEO into into
the business. Because I know that he is
absolutely capable of making thedecisions that are right for the
business and entirely right for that.
For the business, which, you know, it's been something that's
been an Achilles heel for me. Like, I've always been terrible
at firing people even when I knew they needed to go just
(32:25):
really find that difficult. Very, very happy.
That's off my slate right now. So going back to the Viking so
don't be worried if people enjoythat.
I hope there's no one out there.Just loves firing people.
That's all right, boy. Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, no, going back to the by closing.
It was really hard and it was, but I did most of the sort of
grieving while I was still carrying it up.
(32:47):
He'll and and so when I did eventually let go, you know, I
slept better. It was, you know, the relief was
palpable and and and then I was able to be pragmatic, okay?
Had this incredible journey, this incredible experience.
What can I take away from it? What can I learn from it?
(33:08):
That I can bring into the next thing that I do and boy the
learnings on that? I learnt more from that than I
did from all of my successes. That's for sure.
Yeah. Outstanding, love it.
Thank you for sharing. I'm starting to wrap up.
And the last question I have to ask is about your puppy.
(33:29):
So, because again, we started this, that we were introduced by
my sister, Angie, who's one of my favorite people on the planet
and one of mine. Now, by the way, as well.
She's great. She's, and I'm just curious if
she will listen to this. Oh, tell me about the like, why
that puppy? What How was this experience for
(33:50):
you? Like, if you could give Angie a
message about this, this incredible little beast.
That's, you know, invaded your home.
Okay. Well so so first of all, for the
benefit of your listeners, the puppies, the lowchen.
And again, if it's just like mixed reality, you say lowchen,
nobody knows what you're talkingabout, right?
The best reference, I know is heart-to-hearts that show with
(34:14):
Robert Wagner from the 70s, the Butler had a lowchen In the
show. Some people seem to remember
that but now chains little dogs there between 15 and 20 pounds.
They're pure bed pedigree. They're absolutely gorgeous.
They're normally cut in a way where they got a long Mane and
the shave butter and shaved legs, a little booties.
Look a little bit like a lion dog.
Hence, little lined. August is their English name.
(34:38):
Anyway, I have twin daughters inthe UK.
They've had loud chins in their family for 15 years.
I had the great opportunity of being able to bring a lowchen
from the UK to the US for my daughter, who lives with me
here, and he passed away. All about eight months ago, nine
(34:59):
months ago and I took a breath and I took some time and I
thought I want to get another dog.
I'm getting old. I really want to have a dog when
I'm like you know retired and maybe I want to travel and maybe
want to be free. Maybe don't worry encumbered but
you know once you have a luncheon in your life it's very
hard. It's very hard not to have them
(35:22):
and I was very blessed in that Ireached out to a breeder in the
u.s. there aren't that many who was having a litter and
unfortunately her a little It was all assigned and she
introduced me to Angie and so I met Angie.
And if I met Angie in person with the two dogs that were
(35:43):
siring, her her her little girlspuppies, right?
So, It was like love at. First sight, all around, I love
the dogs. I loved Angie.
And what Angie was. It's been a really wonderful
Journey. She is the best breeder I've
ever known by a mile. So being involved in this
(36:04):
experience before her beautiful,super, even conceived of these
babies. It I became vested from day one
and you know, Angie and I struckup a really great Rapport and
she texted me progress and photographs every day.
And when the babies were born, she I think she knew intuitively
(36:25):
which one was ours and, and he'scalled Louis, and he's here and
he is such a blessing and I hopethat my friendship with Angie
will persist and not hope. I know it will.
So we text pretty much daily andI send her up there some
photographs and she sends me updates on on the others and
will, you know, she's my doors opened her in the family.
(36:48):
She can come here any time to hang out with Louis.
It's not me started on me. I think she's a fan of yours for
sure. What she did.
Share that almost instantly. She knew which puppy in the
litter was for you. And I think she she invested you
know that herself in that and creating that.
(37:09):
And mice are the day after because they drove down from San
Francisco, dropped off the puppy, I think on the Saturday
and then I saw her and Sunday afternoon and she was so
appreciative and I worried, likeI hope the dog doesn't keep him
awake and I hope it's working out.
And the fact that you were sharing that, hey, these are
great. Look at this.
This is happening. Yes, very funny.
(37:30):
Actually, I'm so my kids have grown up.
My youngest is 17. She's very ground, but I find
myself using the same kind of vernacular.
And, and having the same sort offeelings I have with Louis, is
those babies are, you know, I wake up.
I was like, oh my God, he slept through the night.
He's, I'm so proud of him. Yeah, yeah, it's hilarious.
(37:52):
And he's been, he's been, he's been super easy, love it.
So so a little gift for Angie, Ithink, you know, someone we both
appreciate and I definitely appreciate being being connected
and hearing the story we're wrapping up, so gig XR G IG X.
Are.com is where people can learn more about it.
David King, last man on LinkedIn.
(38:13):
I'll put the, I'll put all theselinks in the show notes,
including the the episode to on,on your Explorer, XR.
Our with Luke, I think from Italy.
Yeah. And there's other incredible
stories there as well. So maybe this has been a joy as
we expected so appreciative. Thank you so much.
Yeah, it's my pleasure and thanks for all the work you're
(38:35):
doing. Chris, it's good stuff out
there. Thank you for listening.
Don't forget to like And subscribe to the podcast on your
favorite player. And subscribe to the podcast on
your favorite player.
The business Simplicity podcast,where leaders share the most
successful strategies, and the failures that inspires them to
business owners, and managers can avoid the suffering and reap
the benefits with your host, Chris Parker.
And welcome back to that business Simplicity podcast.
(00:24):
This is Chris Parker, and I'm having a conversation with David
King lossman, and he is a founder.
And in was the CEO of gig X are in the mixed reality space.
And we're going to get into all of that.
Really, really curious. We were introduced from my, my
sister, right? And yeah, David purchased, an
(00:45):
animal from her and maybe we'll get into that part of the story
as well. But before we start, I do want
to do a quick plug. If you're watching this on
video, I've got my mustache coming in and that's about
movember in movember is what happens every year and it's you
know, celebrating the need for investment in improvements in
men's health, physical health, mental health.
(01:08):
What one thing that we learned from of Embers suicide is one of
the leading deaths of men between 25 and 45 which is
that's shocking, you know, they don't understand.
So if anyone's Sit in supportingthat I'll put a link in there so
you can donate to movember. Or if you're not willing to or
(01:29):
interested in donating, my suggestion is just call someone
who you're you care about and ask them how they're doing and
maybe that can be, you know whatpeople want, what people need
just to brighten their day. So so with that.
David can you kick us off with, you know?
And I'm so curious about this question, like, what is it that
(01:50):
you that you Do David. So you correctly introduced me
as a founder and the next chief executive officer.
So let's start with the former. So, as a Founder, I'm sure your
audience knows, you know, a Founder establishes a company.
(02:11):
I've been a Serial entrepreneur,my whole life.
I started my first business longer than I care to admit.
I don't know what's in the 80s. Sorry, early 80s actually
started that to finance my Through Music School assuming
that I be a musician by the timeI graduated Music School.
My business was doing quite wellfor the whole that's that's,
(02:32):
that's nice. You know, I've got a little bit
of money and getting an apartment in central London and
that's that, that was cool. And I thought I'll go back to
music eventually and I just do this next thing and this next
thing and like, I guess I got a bit of a bug, I've got a bit of
a bug for starting things, starting businesses, and that's
(02:52):
the part. Part of establishing a business
that I love the most. Those early days, you know,
where you're trying to pluck something, out of The Ether and
you build a vision and a strategy for executing against
that Vision in the roll, up yoursleeves and you work really,
really hard for years and you ask yourself everyday, is this
(03:12):
worth it? Because I'm not making any money
and you're not sure if the business is going to work or not
but you believe it will. And so it was with this latest
venture the gigs are, which I found it in well formally in
2019 when the company was incorporated but I've been
working on the idea for some time before that.
(03:35):
And you know it was me and I brought in a couple of guys and
started building out a little bit of a team and then we raised
a little bit of money and the rest of the little bit more
money and this notion of idea started to gestate and develop
and and then we started to get customers and we started saying
hey wait a minute. this is actually, it's actually my work
(03:58):
and and then we had a business and we were employing a bunch of
people and we were selling all over the world and as a founder
and as a chief executive officer, I had lots and lots of
responsibilities and managing the business on a day-to-day
basis, isn't even with your board and do you with HR issues
(04:20):
and try to keep everything together and I will hold my head
up and say, that that's not really the best use of my time.
All of that sort of day-to-day stuff and the idea of bringing
somebody in to kind of steer theship a little bit and take hold
of the reins, and it was very appealing.
(04:40):
And thankfully now we have an absolutely phenomenal CEO who's
doing all the right things, you know, he's fantastic with the
team and he's fantastic at helping to drive the strategy
and he's great at talking to investors and and that leaves me
free what to do things like thisChris White.
(05:01):
Spend some time chatting with you and to continue to nurture
the relationships that we have with someone very, very
important partners and The new opportunities in the market,
whether it's working with great medical institutions to help,
try product, or brake technologycompanies that could be
complementary to what we're doing, you know, getting on
(05:22):
stages and speaking about what big XR is doing and evangelizing
the fishy. I'm curious if maybe the ask
that question is a little bit different is, how would you
define for you? What is the absolute best use of
your time? Like, of all those things you
could be doing, what, what is, what is that?
Super power of that magic, that is the absolute best investment
(05:46):
of your time through the different companies you founded.
Yeah, I mean, that's a good question and it's one that I
will probably on stiffly, depending on the business.
So one of the challenges that wehave in this business is we're
working within a medium called mixed reality and mixed reality
is a very nascent medium, we're very familiar, Virtual reality
(06:10):
where users are fully immersed in a digital world.
The physical secluded mixed reality uses devices like
Microsoft hololens magically, they have a clear visor so I can
see the physical world. I could see you if you were and
I was in the room with you but in the space between us, we can
(06:31):
broadcast holographic content and we augment the physical
world with digital content in a way that affords tremendous New
Opportunities. So one of the things we have to
do as a business operating within this new paradigm, is we
need to educate. So I think the part of my job is
very much going out there and saying everything about mixed
(06:55):
reality. And let me tell you about why
mixed reality is really, really powerful and really good and why
you need to embrace it. And if you are a medical
institution and your training medical professionals, mixed
reality has a A very, very sensible Solution that's going
to be able to address some of the most challenging and complex
(07:18):
elements of the way that you teach and the way that you learn
and the way that you retrain andwe'll drive real value, let me
show you how. So I think that's a very
important part of what I'm doing.
And just really putting the brand out there.
(07:39):
You know, our ambition is strong, we want to be the de
facto standard platform for the delivery of mixed reality
training in health care, right across the board on a global
scale. And there's a lot of work that
we need to do to entrench that position.
And it's not just about selling product.
We got fantastic sales people wegot a global sales force to the
(08:00):
doing that really, really well but it's Out building those
relationships. You know, it would require a
huge amount of hubris to think that we could do that all on our
own. We can't, you know, we need to
stand on the shoulders of other Giants.
Whether they're tremendous medical institutions, like
Cambridge University Hospitals. For instance, with whom we've
(08:21):
collaborated on Building Producttogether or Michigan medicine
out here in North America. You know, working with these
guys to say, hey look, here's what we can do.
Help us steer Act in a way that's going to drive value.
And part of my job is helping tobuild those relationships.
(08:42):
In addition to the relationship and as founder and on LinkedIn,
they also call you the chief evangelist and sounds like, it's
really Evangelical work. Something is New or I don't call
it abstract but like, with mixedreality.
What's the best way to land that, you know, because it's is
(09:05):
this something that people have to experience physically before.
It really the penny drops or is this something that, you know, I
can't imagine. You can send them a white paper
of text, and they would go have an aha moment.
So eventually they need to, you know, connect that to that.
All that training issue and go. Oh wow.
(09:27):
Yeah, how do you get how do you get to the?
Oh wow. Yeah that's a great question.
And actually something that I think has been consistent across
all of the companies that I've found it that when they've all
been in sort of emerging Tech, or they've all produced a
(09:47):
technology that takes something that people do and uses
technology to make it easier. Easier or more engaging and more
exciting or whatever. I'm going to think about one of
my companies. If that my one of my favorite
businesses, that didn't succeed,actually a company called by
clone, which I founded in 2011, with, with the great Joe Sumner.
(10:10):
And, you know, Joe is a fantastic rock musician.
Came to me and said, hey look, Iplayed this gig at a big Stadium
last night. And next day, they were like 500
videos on YouTube from like Rosie.
And the sound was terrible and Iwas just a DOT somewhere far in
the distance and B, if I could take all those videos and bring
them together into one continuous video, you know,
(10:31):
wouldn't that be cool? How can I do that?
It's nothing. That does that?
That's really difficult to do. Let's see if we can fix that.
And so we went on this wonderfulJourney where we build a
technology that takes videos recording on mobile devices.
Send them up to the cloud magically. synchronizes them on
a timeline and then, Algorithm really cuts the video from all
(10:54):
the best angles with one audio Source underneath it.
Producing this beautiful video and I'm going to name drop here,
right? So we would work when we were
trying to raise money and we have some good Connections in in
the entertainment industry. And we met this guy who knew a
guy who knew a guy who said you know this is the kind of thing.
Ashton Kutcher would be really interested in.
(11:18):
And so, the next thing we know, we're in Ashton's trailer on the
set of Two and a Half Men and hecan't.
He's great guy, very, very smartand he says, so tell me what you
do. And I said, I'm going to show
you what we do and we took out our mobile phones and we
recorded a 30-second video. And a minute later, we returned
(11:42):
from our server. This beautiful video from each
of those angles with one good audio source. it and we said, we
just made this multi-angle moviein a minute and he went That's
brilliant right now. If I hadn't have had the ability
to demonstrate that technology, I would have had to have gone
(12:02):
through a PowerPoint deck, and lots of slides and lots of
models and go-to-market strategy, he saw the magic and
he immediately jumped in and backed it.
Literally got term sheet the next day.
Similarly, with this business, if I had to describe to you
right now, what we do, you know,you might get a little bit zoned
(12:26):
out, but if you had a headset on, or if you were accessing our
technology through your mobile device and we were running
through how you learn, a particular medical procedure or
how do you identify some condition that this person is
suffering from? And you see that person in your
(12:47):
room, the room next to you and you're able to walk around that
person and you see me and I say,hey look, maybe if you pick up a
stethoscope and put it on this woman's chest, tell me what you
hear, you get that sort of jaw-dropping moment being able
to demonstrate a technology thatpeople have never experienced
before, and they then make the association to how they can use
(13:10):
this to do something that is that the traditionally what
they've done is is done it with mannequins like these.
Inanimate plastic, life-size mannequins.
That you put on a gurney in a simulation lab and it all comes
alive. So our challenge was I don't to
(13:30):
get the phone with you and tell you about what we do.
I want to get in the room with you and show you what we do.
What on your podcast, explore XRand maybe you can unpack that a
bit as well, but one of the podcast episodes I listened to
was someone maybe from Unity, who was explaining the training
(13:53):
need, and it was, it was like like field triage and trying to
train people on how to stop the bleeding of someone who howling
in pain and cursing you. And And intuitively.
The last thing you would want todo is actually apply pressure to
that wound but through training that's realistic training.
(14:18):
People can overcome that and actually do the right thing
despite the human, you know, emotional reaction, which would
be to do something else. Right.
I think that's incredible. Is how are those types of?
Oh my God, training moments. Sort of part of your everyday
(14:40):
life is. Yeah.
So I'm very jealous. So, that's that poster was, was
with Luke 24, a who does work atunity and had a background in
the military and he's terrific. He's a Visionary, and he's
great. And people should definitely
listen to that podcast because he's really insightful.
(15:00):
So I think one of the things that's very difficult in the,
when we think about training medical professionals is that
you can learn Learn the basics and you can practice, you know,
how to suture on a piece of foam.
But when you get into clinical experience in somebody's
actually screaming or moving everything changes.
(15:24):
So how do we use technology to better?
Prepare those students for the clinical experience?
I'll give you a perfect example.We're working with some great
Folks at the University of Michigan here in North America.
And one of the Consultants that I was chatting with was saying
very common procedure that everyevery doctor needs to learn,
it's an NG tubes, where you put a tube up the nose down into the
(15:46):
stomach, Look to either take fluid output, fluid, in very
common procedure and you practice it on a mannequin.
What you don't learn when you'repracticing on a mannequin.
Is that as soon as this cheap hits the back of the nose and
hits nasal membrane? There's a reaction the head
jumps or for patient sneezes andthen when it goes back at the
(16:08):
throat, the patient moves and lurches.
You cannot recreate that with the piece of plastic, When you
see that being done holographically and we can do
things like we can work out, youknow, how far that you've that
holographic tubes going to nose in that when it hits a certain
point, we can animate the patient to respond in a certain
way The Stingers. Oh yeah I get that that's going
(16:32):
to happen. So now I'm ready for that when
I'm doing it for real now and the military, they got a whole
bunch of other problems that they've got to deal with.
So imagine being first of all, every member of the military has
to have a certain amount of basic Medical Call training, you
know, you're on the Frontline. Something happens to your pal,
he gets a severe leg wound. You got to treat and you can't
(16:53):
wait for a qualified doctor to get there.
And I think the example that Luke was talking about baucus is
doing a tourniquet. Yeah, you do a tourniquet.
The guy is aptly screen because it hurts to apply to indicate
that you've got to keep going because you got to stop the
blood, no matter how this creamy.
But meanwhile, all around, you know, bullets might be flying
and bonded going off. So if you can simulate that in a
(17:16):
hyper realistic environment, wearing a headset and you know,
okay? I know bullets are going off
around but I still got stay focused.
I still got to do this job. I know this guy's screaming and
reacting in his body's moving but I got a hold him down.
I got to get it done because otherwise he's going to die
right. When that moment, comes heaven
forbid that you're actually on the front line at that is
(17:38):
happening. You are going to be better
prepared because you've gone through a rigorous hyper
realistic training. Program that prepares you for
clinical experience in a way that no other technology can.
And anyone in the medical profession, when they see this
up close and personal, Any dropsand they go.
Yes. I get it.
And I need it. And I will include that in the
(18:02):
show notes that the link to thatepisode and there's a number of
episodes. It's, it's a fun podcast because
you're too technology-based podcast, but you you seem to
really talk about the, the humanDimension there, which is really
fun. The The question is, is emerging
is with gig XR? It's mixed reality.
(18:22):
I'm curious on is how did you choose the the use case or the
industry segments? And for me it's a bit of a
selfish question because a number of years ago is I was
involved in a big data data analytics, start up with some
people that had worked with the NSA, we had the best of everyone
and we were never able to Niche down to an industry and we after
about a year and a half we we folded it because there was not
(18:47):
Incredible technical capability without connecting to an actual
repeatable, sellable problem. How with the with gig XR?
Did you Embark down the medical training path?
Because I can imagine, there's an endless amount of use cases,
that would be equally as interesting, so, why this Tech
(19:08):
to that problem. So, don'ts that question, we got
to go back a little bit to the Genesis of the business.
So in 2015, Microsoft ahead of the launch of their Holland and
mixed reality device approached Pearson who's one of the world's
leading educational Publishers and said.
Look, if we invest them some dollars into your company, will
(19:32):
you fire up a little unit to build some applications for the
hololens. So when the hololens hits the
market, there's some good content that people can interact
with and piercing put together ateam of a dozen or so people.
All out of the UK office and they built five applications.
Two of those applications were medical training applications.
(19:55):
The other three were K through 12 products and when Pearson was
going through a big restructuring, they would the
vesting of that unit and I bought it, right?
So that, that was the Genesis ofgygax are and what I saw, Back
then was the opportunity. Not to operate as a Content
(20:16):
company. I don't think there's a future.
There would have been a future. Would it interesting future if
we just become a company that builds a bunch of apps, what I
thought was a tremendous opportunity was, let's build a
platform upon which we develop abroad wide constellation of
applications, all managed through a single dashboard and
(20:40):
that was interesting. I think that there was a very
strong case for developing something like that, it's a
well-trodden path. And in fact, the first business
I had, which was an ed Tech business was exactly built on
that same mod, right? So we had a business that
produced test papers linked to examiner's, reports and marks
(21:02):
keeps the national curriculum. And so on headquartered the UK
and we had one platform and you could have your English and your
maths and your drug-free and whatever it might be.
And each year, we'd updated withthe most recent example westerns
and relink. It's the latest National
curriculum and once to teachers bought it on school sport it,
(21:22):
they just paid that licensure onyou.
It's a very very good well-trodden model.
The headset, the mixed reality, headsets are quite expensive.
So the hololens is today's threeand a half thousand dollars.
My magic leaves same sort of allpart.
We know prices are going to comedown.
We know they're going to be moretechnology companies coming to
Market but right now that That wipes out the K through 12
(21:45):
Market schools can't afford to spend hundreds of thousands of
dollars on Hardware. So this was clearly either
Enterprise or higher ed and Health Care is interesting
because as I said earlier, this kind of technology is able to
address some of the most difficult and challenging parts
of the curriculum. The things we can't always see
(22:06):
the way people. React, to certain procedures
being done to them and Sport, wecan mimic that So Healthcare
seemed a good place to start. And then, as we started to
really look into the industry. Realize it's a really, really
big space. All right, that's a tempting for
a company like ours. Say, hey look, we've got this
(22:26):
fantastic. Underlying technology, that
lends itself to many, many different verticals.
You're quite right about that, right?
We could, we could spin this outinto architecture or HR or
whatever it might be. Just about anything anywhere
where there's a an element of learning or retraining this kind
(22:48):
of Technology would work. The healthcare education Market
is a multi multi multi billion Global Market.
That I think we can go a long way to establishing a really
strong presence in and if we didnothing else, we'd be able to
build a very strong business in that one, vertical alone So our
(23:09):
strategy is no. The market were in know, it
really, really well, build, verystrong relationships with the
best. The best Brands out there in the
space. Attack it on a global scale,
which we are doing and really stay laser focused II know.
It's very tempting in startups to be Broad and say, hey, we can
(23:32):
do this and we can do that and we do that and there the
companies that tend to struggle to succeed So we ever going to
get into other verticals? I'm not going to say no.
But for the foreseeable future with very, very happy being in
healthcare and I'm currently on a board of a startup that that
(23:53):
my my company I work with Acquired and we're constantly
having this discussion of a focus versus Revenue, you know?
So it's some point you have to sell to you know, feed the
troops or find financing it. Another way.
And it's but having that discipline to choose that patch
(24:16):
and nail, it is great. So I'm Starting to wrap up
slightly, but I'm really curiousabout the Vie clone story that
we started and didn't finish. And I'm curious if was, was this
crossing the chasm issue or, or vertical issue the and let me
(24:39):
share, why probably 10 years ago, I was in a team that was
conceptualizing The exact same product for sports, but more
Community Sports because we werethinking like, well, wait, if
parents were at their videoing their football or soccer match?
(25:01):
And if they were able to merge that together, then we it
collapsed in business cases and stuff, but it was, I love the
idea. So how did such an incredibly
awesome idea that you actually created to demo?
Like, That. How did that fail?
So, I've been in some ways, it didn't fail, you know, we had
(25:23):
millions of users and we have, we were producing phenomenal
products. Phenomenal videos, our
community, where we were apples video app of the Year in 2012.
It was a, it was a great, great product.
I think the reason it failed a number of things, one is there
was friction. You have to download an app.
(25:45):
And then every time you video something you had to video
through the app rather than video natively.
Know what I wanted was Apple to buy it and so every time you
video something a little pop up with say, Hey you know seven
people around you were videoing,same time in the same place.
Do you want to see what your video wouldn't like merge with
this? That would have been a winner.
Hmm. So there was a friction point
(26:07):
and we tried to deal with that by allowing people to upload a
video to event that they've recorded natively.
But you know who's going to do that?
Where it worked was in organizedevents or things like birthday
parties Rock concert, very very successful in the music space.
The other thing is we couldn't charge for this, right?
So what was the business model and that was a huge learning
curve, for me, that was it. We built it at a time, you know,
(26:30):
Web 2.0 was, it was All about getting downloads and eyeballs
and all of that sort of stuff but I couldn't monetize it.
I couldn't monetize it effectively, can we make some
money, but not enough. And I think the other thing that
we didn't have on our side Two things that a business like ours
(26:51):
would have needed to succeed. One is luck and want to timing
and we screwed up on both of those.
We just weren't lucky and interestingly no one's done this
instead of handful of companies have tried and they've gone
away. I'm I'm kind of shocked that
Facebook or Meda didn't do that with you know the community
(27:13):
video just to have an allowed with that says, hey we could
take all the video that was filmed at Burning Man.
And put it together. No, some mulch, just do it.
I'm surprised. They haven't, I'm sort of
surprised. Apple hasn't offered this as a
as a really good value at. You know even in get to some of
my favorite videos with a birthday parties and the kids
(27:34):
playing out the candles and somebody was filming mom's
almost feel me. Dad and some was feeling
Granddad and some was freaking the cake and the kid and got
this beautiful little video. So we can see gorgeous.
But yet luck timing friction. I think, the reason why it
didn't Work. And I the other lesson that I
learned from that was I kept it going because it was like my
(27:56):
little baby that I didn't keep adid and and somebody gave me
some very Salient advice which was you know sometimes when a
start-up is not working, it's like you're pulling this huge
boulder up a hill and it's really hard when you're doing
that alone and sometimes the best thing is to just cut the
rope and Let It Go which I couldn't Don't do I just didn't
(28:19):
it was, it was my baby. I couldn't do it.
I couldn't abandon it. And when I did, it was like a,
it was a huge relief because I replied in really struggled at
the end of it. Based on that.
What, how would, you know, when to cut the rope like, like, what
the whites, the wisdom there. Yeah, so I think part of that
is, about being honest with yourself and knowing that, you
(28:41):
know, if you can't establish a strong business case and don't
have line of sight, To the business time to say.
Okay let's quit or let's stop orlet's hibernate let's regroup
later, maybe that could be a wayto go.
I just I don't think I was honest with myself, I was
convinced that there was a business here because I thought
the idea was so good and becausetechnology we bought was so
(29:03):
good, it really worked with a really, really well.
But there wasn't a business and I should have known that
probably a year before I did with hindsight.
Isn't that a wonderful thing? I'm having another conversation
with gentleman her Falkirk off. Whose basic has been a life
(29:23):
coach for me. Used to be an Enterprise
architect at work for me back inthe day and that's an episode.
I'm going to do specifically formovember and it's about in the
workplace to Mental Health. Consequence of disappointment
because I okay, I'm in an MMA. You know, PE backed world right
now and we're acquiring companies and not all of The
(29:49):
Darlings of every company survives you know, the business
cases need to be reviewed. And and what I see is that can
be rather quite traumatic and itsounds like with with this
Venture, you were really emotionally vested in it.
And yeah. What is the, what is the
mentally healthy way of acknowledging that cutting that
(30:11):
cord grieving and moving on? You know, how did you do it?
It was it was it? How did you recover from that?
That's, that's like four, five, five years of your life.
Yeah. It was hot.
And you know, I think there are some people that probably do
that much better than others. I I'm definitely emotionally
(30:36):
LED. That's probably why I'm less
successful than I could have been.
If I'd have been cold hearted and ruthless and driven only by
data and numbers and business, which I knew I should be.
By the way, you know, maybe someof the outcomes would have been
slightly different and I like the fact that I've achieved
(30:57):
successes in my life without compromising, my moral core and
my principles. And I, I was even Kind of wise
enough if I may be so bold to know that some of the decisions
that I were taking, we're not necessarily the smartest ones
but they felt like the right ones.
(31:20):
My second business for instance,when the.com, bubble burst and
things, you know, we're really really tough, you know, I could
have done a management buyout and got rid of all of my
investors and sort of start afresh and and I couldn't do
that because I felt that they'vestood by me and I didn't have
(31:41):
the wherewithal to abandon them.So I came up with a deal that
sort of worked all around and they did okay and my team did
Okay, and we got the company where we sold it and everything,
you know, everything was was peachy and one of my best at the
time said, you know, bad call. You know, you weren't thinking
like a ruthless businessman. I said, well, I'm not a ruthless
(32:02):
businessman and which, by the way, that's one of the great
benefits of bringing a guy like Jared, who's our CEO into into
the business. Because I know that he is
absolutely capable of making thedecisions that are right for the
business and entirely right for that.
For the business, which, you know, it's been something that's
been an Achilles heel for me. Like, I've always been terrible
at firing people even when I knew they needed to go just
(32:25):
really find that difficult. Very, very happy.
That's off my slate right now. So going back to the Viking so
don't be worried if people enjoythat.
I hope there's no one out there.Just loves firing people.
That's all right, boy. Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, no, going back to the by closing.
It was really hard and it was, but I did most of the sort of
grieving while I was still carrying it up.
(32:47):
He'll and and so when I did eventually let go, you know, I
slept better. It was, you know, the relief was
palpable and and and then I was able to be pragmatic, okay?
Had this incredible journey, this incredible experience.
What can I take away from it? What can I learn from it?
(33:08):
That I can bring into the next thing that I do and boy the
learnings on that? I learnt more from that than I
did from all of my successes. That's for sure.
Yeah. Outstanding, love it.
Thank you for sharing. I'm starting to wrap up.
And the last question I have to ask is about your puppy.
(33:29):
So, because again, we started this, that we were introduced by
my sister, Angie, who's one of my favorite people on the planet
and one of mine. Now, by the way, as well.
She's great. She's, and I'm just curious if
she will listen to this. Oh, tell me about the like, why
that puppy? What How was this experience for
(33:50):
you? Like, if you could give Angie a
message about this, this incredible little beast.
That's, you know, invaded your home.
Okay. Well so so first of all, for the
benefit of your listeners, the puppies, the lowchen.
And again, if it's just like mixed reality, you say lowchen,
nobody knows what you're talkingabout, right?
The best reference, I know is heart-to-hearts that show with
(34:14):
Robert Wagner from the 70s, the Butler had a lowchen In the
show. Some people seem to remember
that but now chains little dogs there between 15 and 20 pounds.
They're pure bed pedigree. They're absolutely gorgeous.
They're normally cut in a way where they got a long Mane and
the shave butter and shaved legs, a little booties.
Look a little bit like a lion dog.
Hence, little lined. August is their English name.
(34:38):
Anyway, I have twin daughters inthe UK.
They've had loud chins in their family for 15 years.
I had the great opportunity of being able to bring a lowchen
from the UK to the US for my daughter, who lives with me
here, and he passed away. All about eight months ago, nine
(34:59):
months ago and I took a breath and I took some time and I
thought I want to get another dog.
I'm getting old. I really want to have a dog when
I'm like you know retired and maybe I want to travel and maybe
want to be free. Maybe don't worry encumbered but
you know once you have a luncheon in your life it's very
hard. It's very hard not to have them
(35:22):
and I was very blessed in that Ireached out to a breeder in the
u.s. there aren't that many who was having a litter and
unfortunately her a little It was all assigned and she
introduced me to Angie and so I met Angie.
And if I met Angie in person with the two dogs that were
(35:43):
siring, her her her little girlspuppies, right?
So, It was like love at. First sight, all around, I love
the dogs. I loved Angie.
And what Angie was. It's been a really wonderful
Journey. She is the best breeder I've
ever known by a mile. So being involved in this
(36:04):
experience before her beautiful,super, even conceived of these
babies. It I became vested from day one
and you know, Angie and I struckup a really great Rapport and
she texted me progress and photographs every day.
And when the babies were born, she I think she knew intuitively
(36:25):
which one was ours and, and he'scalled Louis, and he's here and
he is such a blessing and I hopethat my friendship with Angie
will persist and not hope. I know it will.
So we text pretty much daily andI send her up there some
photographs and she sends me updates on on the others and
will, you know, she's my doors opened her in the family.
(36:48):
She can come here any time to hang out with Louis.
It's not me started on me. I think she's a fan of yours for
sure. What she did.
Share that almost instantly. She knew which puppy in the
litter was for you. And I think she she invested you
know that herself in that and creating that.
(37:09):
And mice are the day after because they drove down from San
Francisco, dropped off the puppy, I think on the Saturday
and then I saw her and Sunday afternoon and she was so
appreciative and I worried, likeI hope the dog doesn't keep him
awake and I hope it's working out.
And the fact that you were sharing that, hey, these are
great. Look at this.
This is happening. Yes, very funny.
(37:30):
Actually, I'm so my kids have grown up.
My youngest is 17. She's very ground, but I find
myself using the same kind of vernacular.
And, and having the same sort offeelings I have with Louis, is
those babies are, you know, I wake up.
I was like, oh my God, he slept through the night.
He's, I'm so proud of him. Yeah, yeah, it's hilarious.
(37:52):
And he's been, he's been, he's been super easy, love it.
So so a little gift for Angie, Ithink, you know, someone we both
appreciate and I definitely appreciate being being connected
and hearing the story we're wrapping up, so gig XR G IG X.
Are.com is where people can learn more about it.
David King, last man on LinkedIn.
(38:13):
I'll put the, I'll put all theselinks in the show notes,
including the the episode to on,on your Explorer, XR.
Our with Luke, I think from Italy.
Yeah. And there's other incredible
stories there as well. So maybe this has been a joy as
we expected so appreciative. Thank you so much.
Yeah, it's my pleasure and thanks for all the work you're
(38:35):
doing. Chris, it's good stuff out
there. Thank you for listening.
Don't forget to like And subscribe to the podcast on your
favorite player. And subscribe to the podcast on
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