The Christian Past That Wasn't: Formerly Telling Jefferson Lies
Season Three is coming. I am renaming the podcast The Christian Past That Wasn't to be consistent with the forthcoming book from Broadleaf Books, The Christian Past That Wasn't: Debunking the Christian Nationalist Myths That Hijack History. This is so much more than a fact-checking book; it critiques the entire Christian nationalist project and misuse of history for political gain. Consistent with the first two seasons of this podcast, The Christian Past That Wasn't demonstrates that separation of church and state was the intention of the framers of the charter documents. We would be so much better off if we stayed true to separation of church and state in the US. Podcast episodes will focus on themes covered by the book and will begin in the Spring. Watch for trailers coming soon! Season Two is complete! Telling Jefferson Lies chronicles how history can be hijacked for ideological and political purposes, as well as a much broader story about the surge of Christian nationalism and the misuse of history which often goes along with it. The series begins with an in-depth consideration of the methods of Christian nationalist story teller David Barton. Then I tell the story of how his book on Jefferson was pulled from publication in 2012 and the response of evangelicals to that rare event. From there, I broaden the scope to examine the varieties of Christian nationalism and the negative consequences of this way of thinking about church and state. The last segment examines the reasons why the separation of church and state is good history, good civics, and good religion. For more information, go to http://www.gettingjeffersonright.com.
Episodes
Roger Finke is distinguished professor emeritus of sociology and international affairs at Penn State University. Roger is also the founder of the Association of Religion Data Archives, which is an online archive of the best religion data available, a standard research tool for social scientists. He is the author of several books including the subject of today's interview: The Price of Freedom Denied: Religious ...
Today's segment is the second part of my interview with Paul Matzko, historian and senior program manager at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. Paul is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. Our topic today is Paul's answer to the question: has Christian nationalism ever worked?
Listen in to find out.
As a part of addressing the question, Paul tells the story of Quaker mar...
Paul Matzko is a historian and senior program manager for AI and emerging technology at the Institute for Humane Studies at George Mason University. He is also an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and host of the Unintended Consequences podcast.
Today, he joins me to discuss how Christian nationalism differs from citizen engagement with politics. Often Christian nationalists complain that they are simply living ...
This segment includes a significant amount of a recent interview with historican and author Jemar Tisby. Although I interviewed Jemar in the spring, the content is incredibly timely and relevant now. In this discussion, we cover the Trump administration's war on due process, diversity programs, and foreign aid.
A recurring theme is the grift, greed, and cruelty of the Trump administration's Christian natio...
Today I feature an interview with Katherine Stewart, the author of the New York Time bestseller Money, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy. The segment is timely in that we discuss income disparities accentuated by the passage of the recent Trump budget. The dominance of Christian nationalism in the current administration isn't helping many of the foot soldiers who helped bring Tru...
Why are Christian nationalists angry about the New York City Democratic mayoral primary victory of Zohran Mamdani? They surely are. Many are blaming "unchecked" immigration for his win. White Christians nationalist fear they are being replaced by too many non-Christians and too many black and brown people. In light of this event and the overall attacks on immigrants taking place in Trump's America, ha...
Be it resolved: America's founders established a secular government with provision for a religious people. When the delegates met in Philadelphia in the summer of 1787, they deliberately prevented the government from favoring any religion. Then when the Bill of Rights were added, freedom of religious expression was guaranteed.
Those who wanted a Christian government at the time were upset at what they called th...
Recently, David Barton and Matt Krause testified in front of the Texas House of Representatives Public Education committee. Barton and Krause both said some historically questionable things to support the placement of the Ten Commandments in every Texas classroom. A premise of this podcast is that it takes faulty history to pursue Christian nationalist goals, one of which is to erode separation of church and state.
...
In this segment, I examine the notion that there was something remarkably Christian about America's founding era. Last week, I fact-checked Charlie Kirk's viral video defense of the belief that America was founded as a Christian nation in the legal sense. Most of what Kirk had to say was irrelevant or incorrect.
Today, I consider an overview of moral and religious failings during the founding era. Along wi...
In 2024, Charlie Kirk distributed a five-minute video defense of the idea that America was founded as a Christian nation. It has been played at least 20 million times on various social media platforms and is full of faulty history. This segment serves to correct the false claims and defend the proposition that America's founders set out to found a secular government with provision for religious pluralism. Unfor...
On January 3, 2025, Louisiana Representative Mike Johnson was re-elected to be Speaker of the House. In his acceptance speech, he quoted a prayer that he said Thomas Jefferson said every day during his presidency and every day of his life thereafter.
There is a problem with this story. The prayer was written 56 years after Jefferson died. Jefferson never said the prayer even one day of his life. Later, Johnson and t...
In 2024, a video featuring Charlie Kirk defending America as a Christian nation was viewed over 10 millions times on social media. Many of the claims were false or misleading. This season of Telling Jefferson Lies will examine this video and other Christian nation claims by Christian nationalists in addition to Kirk.
The first full episode is planned for April.
There are lies, there are Jefferson Lies, and then ther...
Although the dates have not been set, new episodes of Telling Jefferson Lies are coming this Spring. I want to go deeper into the faulty history of Christian nationalism but also examine the psychology behind it as well.
Christian nationalism as an ideology is much more complex than fake quotes and false stories. The way history has been written from the beginning of the arrival of the Europeans must be ex...
On September 3, 2024, author and historian Jemar Tisby's new book The Spirit of Justice: True Stories of Faith, Race, and Resistance officially drops everywhere. Today, I am posting most of the interview I conducted with Jemar for use in my podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies.
In this episode, I recreate my questions because of a recording glitch in the original. The recording on Jemar's end wa...
On July 2, 2024, Caleb Campbell's new book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor officially drops everywhere. Today, I am posting most of the interview I conducted with Caleb for use in my podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies.
In this episode, I do say I want to smash Christian nationalists, but I hope it is clear that I am not serious, but instead I agree with Caleb's ...
Excerpts from my interview with Scott Coley, lecturer in philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University. His new book Ministers of Propaganda: Truth, Power, and the Ideology of the Religious Right is out this week. In this bonus episode of the podcast series Telling Jefferson Lies, Scott discusses Christo-authoritarianism and the role of justice in overcoming self-interest.
Music credits:
Seiche by Dus...
Often debates focus on Christian nationalism and the problems which come from blurring the line between church and state. In this episode, I end the Telling Jefferson Lies series with some thoughts and testimony from experts about what is good about separation.
Helping me close out the series are:
Randall Balmer, John Phillips Chair in Religion, Dartmouth College
Caleb Campbell, Pastor, Desert...
In 2005, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor asked an important question for those who would erode separation of church and state: "Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly? "
I spend much of this episode affirming that we should not trade. Much of this series has been raising alarm about Christian nationalism and supporting separation of church ...
In this segment, I argue that Christian nationalism is bad for religion in general and bad for Christianity in the specific case. This segment sets up the finale which argues that separation of church and state is a benefit to the United States and should be strengthened.
If you like experts and multiple voices, this is the segment for you. Here is the lineup:
Randall Balmer, John Phillips Chair i...
In this short bonus episode, Dartmouth College professor Randall Balmer provides an introduction to reasons why he doesn't see the U.S. as a Christian nation.
Dr. Balmer is the John Phillips Chair in Religion at Dartmouth College. He has spoken at numerous colleges and universities, including where I met him, Grove City College.
Balmer has published more than a dozen books, including Redeemer: The Lif...
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