The Spiritual Risks of Yoga with Mike Shreve

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
This is the Collective Resistance Podcast with your hosts Leo and Fabiola.
Music.
We will be discussing why we find ourselves resisting the narratives of the
Common Collective, as well as why the Common Collective resists new information.

(00:30):
Fabiola. Hey, Leo. How are you doing today? I am fantastic.
Well, once again, we are joined by Mike Shreve, who was on a couple episodes
ago, and he talked about his story and his ministry and very engaged in that conversation.
We wanted to do a follow-up. We've got a couple follow-ups we'd like to do.
Today, we're going to focus around the seven reasons that Mike no longer practices yoga.

(00:56):
In fact, I'm holding up his little booklet that he provides,
which I gave a nice read to, and it's extremely engaging and interesting,
and it's a lot of stuff that I did not know about yoga.
And we're going to dive in around that, but just if you are joining us for the
first time, you know, Mike, he was an instructor of Kundalini Yoga at four universities
with several hundred students looking to him as their guru.

(01:19):
Then he had an encounter with the Lord Jesus, which radically changed his heart,
his life, and his worldview. view.
He talked about that in our original episode that we did.
So if you want to dive more into that longer story, then watch that particular episode.
But today, what are we going to be going into, Fabiola?
Yeah, so Mike, we want to really, yoga is, it's so pervasive in this society.

(01:42):
I mean, it's in movies, it is in books, it is in every corner you look, there's a yoga studio.
And I I was under the impression that yoga was benign, you know,
it would help you achieve balance.
It'll help with your strength, flexibility.
I took several yoga classes. I've never been a yogi, but nothing close to what you did, Mike.

(02:07):
But, you know, would take yoga classes here and there. Always felt energized
after and really thought that was the go-to for health and wellness.
And you, going from Catholicism, right, growing up as an altar boy and everything, got into yoga.
Can you tell us a little bit of how you stumbled into yoga and decided to become a yogi?

(02:33):
And how does an Eastern practice get so solidified in our society,
our Judeo-Christian society here in the West?
Well, you've used several questions to get other than the one.
And so I might take a step by step.

(02:53):
Okay, I'll do that. The first thing I want to respond to is why and how did I get into yoga?
And as I mentioned in the previous interview, I had a near-death experience when I was 18.
And that stirred me to find the answers.
The answers to life in this world and what was on the other side of death.

(03:16):
And I was disenchanted, I guess would be a good word, with Christianity because
I equated Christianity with Catholicism.
When I had been raised Catholic, I was very fervent, very passionate about it.
I was probably at the church four times a week, doing mass as often as possible,

(03:39):
confession every week. I was an altar boy.
At one point, I was on my way to the monastery to become a monk.
And both my children have told me they're very glad I didn't make that decision.
But I never encountered God.
I met a lot of wonderful, loving, humble people that were not your ordinary kind of people.

(04:03):
They stood for things that were really important, especially in recent years.
They're the driving force behind the pro-life movement and traditional marriage. age.
And so I saw a lot of good, but I didn't see God.
I didn't encounter God.
And for that reason, after I had this near-death experience,

(04:26):
I thought, I got to find an answer.
And so it just so happened, one of my friends was deeply involved in yoga,
a particular sect of yoga, Kundalini yoga.
And he had invited Yogi Bhajan, who had just come to America from Canada,
and then he came to Canada from India in order to, quote unquote,

(04:49):
help the flower child generation find their way.
And I was very much into that kind of lifestyle, hippie lifestyle,
because I'd been a rock musician and.
Well, not necessarily to go into all the details.
I was living that kind of life, doing the hallucinogenic drugs, etc.

(05:11):
So anyway, I thought, well, this sounds intriguing. This sounds interesting.
And when I listened to Yogi Bhajan, incidentally, the word guru means out of darkness into light.
And he claimed to be a legitimate guru.
Now, I don't believe that at all. In fact, many of his own followers,
after his death, discovered things that made them reject him as a leader altogether.

(05:38):
There was some big scandals.
But regardless, I heard him speak, and he advocated an extremely disciplined life.
Which included getting up at 3.30 in the morning and meditating for hours and
doing yoga asanas, which are the physical exercises, and pranayama,

(06:00):
which are the breathing exercises.
But he presented it as a pathway to God consciousness.
Now, probably over 90% of the people that get into yoga have no thought of reaching,
quote unquote, God consciousness.
They just want to tune up their body.
And I believe that's why it's grown so quickly and has become so popular in

(06:25):
our culture because it's a trendy way of toning up.
It's non, how can I say this, it's a way of doing exercise that's not as challenging
on your body in the lesser stage. Well, it depends on what poses you're doing.
Right, in the lesser stage. They are very unnatural. And depending on the teacher

(06:50):
and what demands are made on you.
But now I've discovered, now that I've become a follower of Jesus,
I've discovered things like the fact that every yoga posture that people assume
in a yoga class is an invocation to some deity within the Hindu pantheon.

(07:11):
And in their system of belief, they have over, well, they have around 330 million
gods and goddesses that they worship.
And there are certain primary gods and primary goddesses that are connected to these yoga postures.
And when you assume that posture, sometimes, especially if you chant a mantra at the same time,

(07:36):
you are actually invoking that deity to come and manifest in your life and come
assume a position of control in your life.
And I think I think that's very detrimental because it is a spiritual connection,
even when you don't realize it.
But the main reason I got into it was to achieve this state of mind called God consciousness. Yeah.

(08:02):
It did not happen. It did not deliver. And it will not deliver.
Because according to the particular sect of Hinduism and Sikhism that were blended
together in Kundalini Yoga, I personally embraced something called Advaita Vedanta Hinduism.
Now, not everyone involved in yoga would believe this, But Advaita means not dual,

(08:30):
not, in other words, the other extreme in Hinduism is Devaita,
D-V-A-I-T-A, Devaita Vedanta Hinduism.
Vedanta means an interpretation of the Vedas, which are the Hindu scriptures.
Scriptures and those that are involved in deveda
vedanta hinduism believe that on an ultimate level

(08:51):
god is a personal god and and
you do yoga and you you seek
for enlightenment for this so now when you're
talking about god you're talking about the the godhead or
you're talking about all the other yeah yeah but they but a hindu would say
it's vishnu or krishna if they believe in dualism To believe in dualism means

(09:15):
that your soul is distinct from the over-soul, or dualism.
This creator of all things, and that you can have relationship with him.
But I subscribe to Advaita Vedanta Hinduism, which means non-dual.
And that particular worldview that is very, very popular among yoga advocates is monistic.

(09:41):
And these are complicated terms, but monism means all is one and one is all.
And so it's basically a way of saying that you're not going to pray to God or
seek a relationship with God because you are God, that the individual soul, Atman,
and the oversoul, which is Brahman, an impersonal life force, are one in the same.

(10:05):
And the whole goal of yoga is to come to a conscious realization of that.
And so that really tickled my imagination, intrigued me, was alluring to me.
It drew me in. I thought if I can achieve this place of God consciousness, wow, I could endure.

(10:26):
It's paradise on earth, right? Because with Christianity, you've got to wait.
And then you escape the cycle of rebirth.
And in Hinduism, they believe in reincarnation. They believe that the individual
life essence, the soul, passes through over a million reincarnations before it reaches perfection.

(10:47):
And it becomes a desperation when you're in that worldview to get out of this
cyclical trap where you're over and over and over again being subjected to the
pain and the misery of this world.
So the whole goal is to become a perfect enough human being,
perfect in your thoughts, perfect in your emotions, perfect in your actions,

(11:12):
perfect in your reactions, so that all karma is canceled and you can exit this
realm to higher spiritual states.
Well, that sounds enticing if you don't know the truth, because I didn't know the truth.
I'd never been confronted with the true, authentic revelation of New Testament Christianity.

(11:35):
So that takes me to the next question, in which it was the question I had.
It seems like a benign practice, right? If you're energized,
you feel great, you were trying to escape your karma or your cycle of rebirth.
And it all sounds great on paper.

(11:58):
So how can it ultimately be so, and the word I can think of is deceitful.
What is the deceitfulness in the practice? What is the deceitfulness?
One of the first books, one of the very first books I read when I was entertaining
the thought of Christianity is a book called The Challenging Counterfeit. Okay.

(12:19):
And part of the reason people tend to say all religions are different paths
to the same ultimate place or the same God is because sometimes they come very
close to the truth without actually stepping over into the truth.
There are certain elements in all religions that are true, universally true.

(12:41):
For instance, in my book, In Search of the True Light, I have several pages
devoted to commonalities.
And one page is how you can find the golden rule in every major religion that
is a positive approach to religion and to life.
And so it can be very deceptive because it takes you almost there, but not the door.

(13:08):
And Jesus made a very powerful claim, and I'm trying to search for the right word.
In the minds of others, it was a very audacious claim. He said, I am the door.
By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. saved
and he said all that came before me are thieves and robbers

(13:28):
which is a heavy statement because buddha
came before him and some of the
revered teachers of hinduism came before him so what did he mean all that came
before him were thieves and robbers i believe he was the singular and only world
teacher if you want to call him that to use a new age term and to use a hindu

(13:52):
term, I believe he was the only avatar,
the only time God ever incarnated in this world.
And anyone who claims to have that kind of knowledge, that kind of wisdom,
that kind of insight, that claims to be able to lead others into ultimate truth,
whether they realize it or not, whether they acknowledge it or not,

(14:14):
they're robbing or attempting,
rather, to rob him of the the position only he can fill.
And that's the promoter of total truth in this world.
And so that's one of the primary things that make yoga and different sects within the umbrella of yoga.

(14:40):
Like Ashtanga Yoga or Kundalini Yoga, Hatha Yoga, Raja Yoga,
et cetera. There's many different types.
It makes them a negative practice that is damaging to people because it does
incorporate some good things, some true things,
into the worldview that is made up of that particular approach.

(15:04):
It brings them right up close but doesn't take them through the door because
only Jesus can be the door to eternal life.
He said, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me.
Those are either the words of an insane egomaniac or he was who he claimed to be.

(15:25):
And of course, I declare the latter, that he was the way, the truth, and the life.
The way is how you live. The truth is what you believe.
And the life Life means the recovery from the spiritually dead state,
and nothing else can do that.
Nothing else can accomplish that, because just to give a blatant example,

(15:48):
Buddha died of food poisoning when he was 80 years old, and he's still in the grave.
But Jesus died a much worse death than food poisoning, and three days later rose from the dead.
And of course, that's the basic foundational beliefs of Christianity.
Christianity, no one else in all the ranks of world religious leaders has ever

(16:10):
suffered on a cross for the sins of humanity.
And no one else has tasted death for every man.
And no one else has risen from the dead as an example to us that we can have
faith and an expectation of the same thing happening for us.
And so these religions may accomplish some good.

(16:31):
I'm not saying a blanket statement is all 100% completely evil.
But there's enough darkness in it to take away from whatever light it contains.
That's why Jesus said, take heed lest the light that is in you be darkness.
He said, if the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness?

(16:54):
And so there's a reason, though. And maybe I should go into this.
There's a reason there were positive elements. When I became a yoga advocate,
I was spending 12 to 14 hours a day in solitude, divorced myself from all the
corruption that had been my life when I was a rock musician and when I was just a flower child,

(17:19):
hippie, or whatever you want to label me with.
I withdrew from all that for a lengthy period of time.
I never watched television. I never went to a movie. I never went to any kind
of entertainment place. I never dated.
I lived a completely celibate lifestyle.

(17:40):
And so a lot of the evil that was in my life was purged from my life.
So somebody would say, well, that was having a beneficial effect, wasn't it? Right.
Well, I believe there's a reason that that affects.
Took place in fact it's a fantastic way of explaining why you can find certain

(18:01):
limited elements of truth in all world religions it's always at the base at the foundational level,
of a religion that you find the common elements with a biblical lifestyle and
that base that foundation is character development.
Because as I said, you can find the golden rule in all major positive world religions.

(18:27):
You can find exhortations to separation from the world and living a life of
integrity and honesty and morality in all your positive religious approaches.
So why did that happen? If those are false religions, why does a certain amount
of good could result from embracing them?

(18:47):
And how did that mix in with something false and deceitful and ultimately misleading?
I see it this way, that the Bible talks about human beings having three parts, spirit, soul, and body.
The body is made up of flesh, bones, and blood.
The soul is made up of the invisible human elements of mind, will, and emotions.

(19:14):
Everyone has soulish activity of mind, will, and emotions.
The spirit, however, according to biblical teaching, is dead in trespasses and sins.
It doesn't mean completely dead. It's speaking relatively, relative to the perfect
man that was created in the beginning.
The spirit is almost completely non-functional. The Spirit has three functions,

(19:38):
and that's communion with God, revelation from God, and conscience.
And this is building toward an answer, trust me. No, keep going.
So prior to my born-again experience where Jesus came in my life and I was spiritually
regenerated, two of those parts to the spirit were non-functional,

(20:01):
communion with God and revelation from God.
What I thought was communion with God, the astral projection experiences I had,
the white light I went into at one point, I had this experience of intense white
light and it felt like an impersonal force.
That was a false experience because prior to being born again.

(20:23):
You no function in those two areas of your spirit, communion with God, revelation from God.
The only thing that's still functional is the conscience.
And the conscience is in a barely functional state.
I liken it to a glowing ember where there used to be a raging fire in the first perfect created man.

(20:45):
And so I began trying to become a righteous person, trying to live a holy life,
trying to love my neighbor as myself, trying to love God with all my heart,
because my conscience started working on me.
And the Holy Spirit uses the consciences of men globally, even those that have

(21:06):
never been exposed to the gospel.
And Romans chapter 2 talks about that. It talks about those that don't have
the law, but by nature do those things contained in the law. Mm-hmm.
That's because their conscience kicks into gear, so to speak.
And so when I went after God in the devotion I had to yoga,

(21:29):
it was because of an impulse or an influence in my life that actually came from
a good source, my conscience.
But I was misled and trapped in a dark belief system because of a sincere motive
to begin with, and that was to find God.

(21:52):
Many times I broke down crying and saying, God, I love you.
I want to know you, which was kind of contrary to my Advaita Vedanta Hinduism point of view.
Because you're monistic, right? But from now and then, I would feel this overwhelming
desire to know a personal God, a heavenly Father.

(22:14):
And I long for that. Thank God I found it. The Bible does say if you seek God
with all your heart, you'll find him. And I did.
I sought him with all my heart, all my strength, all my soul.
That is beautiful. That is beautiful. You had a question. Yeah, yeah.
Just something that struck me as you were talking. And I know that one of the
concepts that has been very powerful for me that I didn't really understand being Catholic,

(22:41):
and it's funny because you think you would given their additional writings on,
you know, evil spirits and stuff like that.
But one thing, I'm going to try to parse this because it's complicated,
but I'm thinking of, you know, the passages in the Bible that say,
you know, do not participate in divination, and I don't know if it's like telling

(23:04):
the future and all of this stuff.
Oh, yeah. And I'm wondering, because I know that you wrote like this pamphlet,
it's really as a warning to Christians.
Right. But, but I'm, I'm also, I'm also wondering if you know,
do, do Hindus, did they believe that there are, cause I just don't know, I'm, I'm naive to it.

(23:29):
So I'll admit that. But do they believe that there are evil spirits too?
And, and how, how do they explain, okay, well, when you're going to do these
things and you're inviting spirits in,
you will be protected against the evil spirits, because obviously that was the
understanding that I didn't have about Christianity.
The reason you don't do these things is not because these things are snake oil.

(23:55):
You know, there's something there, you just don't know what it is.
And you can't prove that this is something that's good for you,
so don't mess with it, right?
Deal with the Word of God and let the spirits deal in the spirit realm.
So, how do Hindus protect themselves against evil spirits? Because I'm just

(24:18):
trying to compare and contrast.
Well, that's a very important question. Unfortunately, they don't try to protect
themselves from all spirits.
I have a friend who's gone on to heaven. She wrote a book called Authentic Enlightenment
that we published through our publishing company, Deeper Revelation Books.

(24:39):
And she was one of the first people to study under Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,
Transcendental Meditation.
And she told me about one time she was in a class where one of the students
said during meditation, they were seeing these apparitions of what seemed to be evil spirits.
And they asked the Maharishi what they should do. And he said,

(25:01):
oh, welcome them in. in, welcome them in.
Because in his mindset, they would be like spirit gods that would help them
navigate the spiritual world.
And so there's not really a defined belief that I know of.
And I might need to do some more research, but I never came across a defined

(25:22):
belief in how to draw a line of differentiation between good spirits and evil spirits.
But I do know that we were warned by various gurus in the beginning that a supposed
premature awakening of the Kundalini could cause demonic encounters to take place.

(25:42):
And in Hindu mythology, there's many stories about various deities killing a demon.
And so they have a concept of demons, but it's not the same kind of revelation you find in the Bible.
And I might mention, and I think it's an important thing to mention at this

(26:04):
juncture, just in case I forget about it and don't bring it out.
I believe, well, let me preface it with this statement.
Hindu people are often very passionate, loving, gentle, humble people.
I find them to be some of the most tolerant people in the world and some of
the most gentle hearted people in the world.

(26:26):
And I know many of them really deeply love God.
And most of them, if you start a conversation with them, will smile at you lovingly
and say, oh, there is only one God, as if to say, I accept you and you should
accept me. And of course, I have a way of responding to that.
And so I wanted to preface what I say with that statement because I respect

(26:51):
that attitude on the part of Hindus.
I love Hindu culture because it used to be more years ago than now,
but it used to be more of a spiritual-minded culture as opposed to materialism in the West.
Now they're influenced by the West and it's much more materialistic.

(27:14):
But the best, most concise way of saying what I want to say is to quote 1 Corinthians
10, verse 20. and I have it written down here.
It says, the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God.

(27:34):
And Paul went on to say, I do not want you to fellowship with demons.
Well, see, I've been to Hindu temples in India, where you can go through this
labyrinth of tunnels underneath a city,
and every 50 feet, there's a little alcove and a deity depicted in a statue
form with fruits and flowers and incense offered up to the deity.

(27:59):
And according to 1 Corinthians 10.20, the things which the Gentiles sacrificed,
and of course, that includes that culture and many others.
They sacrifice to demons. Now, they don't knowingly sacrifice to demons.
I didn't knowingly open my heart up to demonic influence.
I should have known it when I was told that the word kundalini means serpent

(28:23):
power. That should have been a red flag. I know.
Do I want serpent power rising up through my spine to bring me to a point of
enlightenment when the Bible uses the serpent as a symbol of evil?
Yeah, isn't one of the gods, not Vishnu?
Shiva. Shiva, doesn't he have a serpent around him? Serpent around his neck, yeah.

(28:46):
Well, many of the gods are depicted with serpents, but Shiva especially.
I think Cobra, if I'm remembering correctly. And he's called the Lord of Yoga.
Shiva is the Lord of Yoga.
And so when you do yoga, you're automatically coming under his headship.
And he's the God of destruction in Hinduism.

(29:08):
And I believe that when I did yoga, I opened myself up to demonic influences
because I have supernatural experiences, but they were not of God.
They were not the true spirit of God.
And so that's why you mentioned Deuteronomy chapter 18, verses 9 through 13.

(29:29):
And I want to read it while you were talking, Leo. I looked it up.
God said, and this is King James Version, Old English.
When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee,
thou shall not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
There shall not be found among you anyone that makes a son or daughter pass

(29:51):
through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer at times, which is astrology.
Or an enchanter, or a witch, and now you've got good witches and bad witches.
Right, right. There's the white magic and the dark magic.
But God didn't make a differentiation between white witch and black witch.
And I'll bring out something about that in just a minute. Or an enchanter,

(30:15):
or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits,
or a wizard, or a necromancer, which is someone who who attempts to contact the dead.
For all those who do these things are an abomination to the Lord.
And because of these abominations, the Lord your God drives the Canaanites out from before you.

(30:37):
Well, why would God withhold from people legitimate experiences?
If those are legitimate legitimate spiritual encounters and legitimate spiritual
experiences, then God would be.
Very wrong in denying his people the wonderful opportunity to pursue spiritual realities this way.

(31:02):
Like you said, you saw the super bright, you know, white light, right?
And that you thought was a beautiful experience. I thought I was going deeper.
I thought I was finding truth, ultimate truth, absolute truth.
And if Christianity had not come in to my radar, so to speak,

(31:22):
where I I began to re-inspect its statutes and its beliefs,
then I'd probably be in an ashram in India now, still, after 50 years.
I'd be in some cave up in the mountains of Tibet, who knows.
Still seeking after this ultimate goal that comes as a gift, and it comes instantly.

(31:44):
You don't have to seek 10, 20, 30 years and become good enough that you can
receive Jesus into your heart as your Savior, is a gift.
He said, he that believes on me has everlasting life. The wages of sin is death,
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And it seems too easy to people. It does, yeah.

(32:08):
Too simple. Yet the Bible talks about the simplicity of Christ.
Going back to the idea of witchcraft. Yeah.
Yogi Bhajan used to teach, and this is a common teaching among gurus,
that there's three kinds of witchcraft.
I don't know if you ever heard that when you were involved in yoga,
but there's black witchcraft, red witchcraft, and white witchcraft. Oh, no.

(32:30):
I only know about black and white. I didn't know about the red.
Black witchcraft is supposedly accessing spiritual power and utilizing spiritual
power to accomplish evil purposes.
Red witchcraft is
accessing spiritual power and utilizing that power to accomplish selfish purposes

(32:52):
white christ witchcraft is accessing spiritual power and utilizing that power
for righteous purposes but here's the clincher it's all the same power.
The source is the same. Is that what you're saying? That's what they teach.
The source is the same. And it's up to you to decide to use this innate power

(33:16):
within every human being, this kundalini serpent power, and use it for righteous purposes.
But the Bible doesn't approach the subject that way.
There's no such thing as any brand of good witchcraft.
It's all bad because it's all illegitimate accessing of power,

(33:40):
spiritual power, that does not stream from God.
Witchcraft is the utilization. Because it doesn't stream from God.
So that's basically the answer.
Why would God say don't mess with that stuff? It's because it does not come from him.
Because he didn't want his people to be corrupted. That's why he said don't go to necromancers.

(34:01):
He didn't want them deceiving. and he didn't want them to come under demonic influence.
That's why he said, don't go to an observer of times. He didn't want them deceived
and he didn't want them to be corrupted spiritually.
And he said, don't involve yourself in divination,
which is forecasting the future through various means and rituals and so forth,

(34:22):
because he knew that they would come under demonic influence if they strayed
from the boundaries of what he said was correct. And I did.
And I came under evil influence. And I know that's really, really hard for people
to wrap their minds around.
Especially if a Hindu was listening to me right now, that would be much an affront.

(34:45):
And especially people that had the beautiful experiences as we were talking about earlier.
How can that be? Because I've had some of those experiences myself.
And I'm like, how can that be
evil? You know, it's like this wonderful sensations and beautiful imagery.

(35:06):
Yeah, it's right. And when I did yoga, say for a couple of hours,
if I was involved in the asanas and the pranayama and then doing meditation
for two or three hours, then when I stopped, I had this amazing feeling of tranquility.
And I thought that was the quote unquote, hope, peace of God.

(35:29):
It was really just the peace that is produced by drawing back from external stimuli.
The Buddhist teachers call it monkey chatter, where you've got all these thoughts
swirling in your mind because of all these involvements in life.
Well, if you withdraw draw and you're not allowing your senses to control you

(35:55):
emotionally or mentally,
then yeah, you're going to feel the semblance
of peace and you're going to misinterpret it as the peace of God.
But once I experienced the Prince of Peace, whose name is Jesus,
and I experienced the peace the Bible calls the peace of God that passes understanding,

(36:16):
it's beyond description.
Then I I knew the difference.
I knew the difference. There's no comparison. So you feel like you can't really
tell the difference until you have had this revelation or you have been born again.
Because a lot of people will argue with you. Well, yeah.
Well, we are not supposed to have to do divinations. But here we have the prophets,

(36:39):
you know, that heard from God and they interpreted dreams and did all those
things. So what is the difference?
Which, which, oh, you're talking about. Yeah, so we're talking about Joseph,
for example, he would interpret dreams, right?
And we have several prophets that would say, you know, there's famine coming
or the kings will come to them and they would hear something they didn't like

(37:01):
and they would throw them to the lions or throw them to the fire.
And so people go like, well, there is accounts of people in the Bible interpreting
dreams and receiving messages from God and telling the people,
you know, let's not worship this, this or that.
Why can't it be true for me to find a person that's very accurate to read the

(37:25):
future for me and it's weird,
you know, like you had maybe someone that passed away and they got a message that sounded accurate.
So those are the arguments that I feel people go like, well,
here, what is the distinction? How do we even know, you know,
that that's not what the prophets were doing?
How do I know that that's again? Let me mention that book that I read in the

(37:48):
very beginning. It was called A Challenging Counterfeit.
If I were to hand you what I said was a dollar bill and it had a picture of
Groucho Marx on it and it was red in color.
And if on the back of the bill there was a clown face, would you accept that as a legitimate dollar?

(38:11):
No. No, it's too blatantly a fake dollar.
Right. So you're not going to fall for that. But if I went to a counterfeiter
that used the right, and of course I'm not going to do this.
If I went to a counterfeiter and got them to use the same kind of paper,
of the same kind of ink and duplicated exactly the image of a dollar bill,

(38:35):
I might be able to use those dollars and dupe a lot of people until the federal
agents caught up with me.
So you want a counterfeit to look so much like the real that people fall for.
And that's why there are true gifts of prophecy,
the gift of discerning of spirits, and there are true gifts of the word of knowledge

(39:00):
and the word of wisdom, which are supernaturally imparted,
and people receive a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom.
And I've had it happen many times. I've had it happen many times.
I had a young man many years ago, and I know this might get a mixed reaction.
But he was a cross-dresser, and he came to one of my services dressed up like

(39:26):
you would expect a transvestite to look.
And I was standing out in the parking lot of this church.
And of course, this was after I had been saved, born again, and was in the ministry.
And it was not spoken in a lustful way, just a matter of fact way.
There were a couple of deacons outside the church who said, that's a nice looking young woman.

(39:46):
And God gave me discernment and a word of knowledge.
And I told the deacons, I said, that's not even a woman.
I said, you'll find out in a few minutes.
And God gave me a prophetic word for that young man. I won't go into it,
but it's stunning. Why not?
Well, it's a little too intense, I think. Okay, okay, okay, gotcha.

(40:10):
But I let him know. We like intense stuff.
That he was going to make a decision within 24 hours that was going to totally ruin his life.
And by the word of the Lord, God, I didn't know he was scheduled for a sex change the next day.
And he came up to the altar. And when he walked up the aisle, he swayed like a woman.

(40:33):
He had a high-pitched, feminine-sounding voice because he'd been on,
I guess, the hormonal treatments that make that happen.
But as soon as he knelt down in the altar, I know this sounds far-fetched and
way out, but his bodily shape began to change and his voice dropped to a masculine
level as I commanded the spirits,

(40:55):
the evil spirits, the demonic forces to come out of his life.
He called me the next day and wept and thanked me and said,
If you hadn't confronted me,
I would have already gone through the operation. That's crazy. That is.
That's crazy. That is awful.
Remember, we were talking about that last time. We better explain that.

(41:19):
In old forms of English, the word awful meant full of all and awesome meant some all.
Now it's all inverted, right? Yeah. I don't know how the words took two different
roads of meaning, but they did. Yes. Wow. That is amazing.
Well, you know, something we were talking about before we started the episode,
we were talking about yoga becoming so prevalent, like in schools and whatnot.

(41:44):
And I'm wondering your thoughts, because something we didn't dive into when
you were first explaining it is, you know, because you were mentioning how that
there are people who are on different levels, right?
There are people who are devoting their lives to yoga. They're trying to reach
that God consciousness type level.
And then there are people who are just doing it for health reasons,

(42:06):
if you will, or to become more relaxed so that they can get through the day better.
And so I just want to make sure there's clarity. Are we saying that there's
challenges even with the poses?
Are we saying that it has to be a mix of the chants, the poses?
Is the, I just want to make sure people get a glimpse of what we're talking,

(42:30):
the potential risks are, right?
Well, I think two of the most basic things that are negatives attached to the
practice of yoga, and I included in this book that you mentioned a while ago,
the seven reasons book is spiritual intrigue.

(42:50):
And for instance, if kids are going to a public school where yoga is part of
the curriculum, usually they'll just be going through the asanas,
the physical exercises.
Most often, and I have known a situation where it was not the case,
but most often the teachers don't.

(43:12):
Don't lead them on into chanting or saying namaste or the word om, et cetera.
They don't lead them into those more complicated aspects of what yoga is,
but they become intrigued.
They become interested.
It's Hinduism 101 to do the various yoga postures,

(43:35):
and it makes them want to dig on the internet and start
reading books and then you start getting exposed to
all these ideas that can just like
a gateway drug what's that
kind of like a gateway drug you know
you open yourself and then you feel all the deception that we were talking about

(43:57):
the piece and the you know a lot of people will see colors you know when they
are doing the corpus pose or when they're doing different poses or they feel
the very relaxing feeling,
that peaceful feeling,
and then they want more of that.
And like me, they have positive changes in their life because they become more spiritual-minded.

(44:21):
Thinking it was yoga influence in this way, it was really my conscience.
God was dealing with me through my conscience to live a more moral and good
life, And it was disassociated from yoga.
It was part of the whole journey that I was going through at the time.
But I do want to reemphasize that counterfeit idea that, yes,

(44:47):
there were beneficial things associated with doing yoga, especially physically.
Basically, I got really tuned up doing yoga, but that's the gateway to false
beliefs that are very non-biblical and apart from truth altogether,
anti-truths. Okay.

(45:07):
So let's step back a little bit.
The belief that we are God, for instance. Right, right. That was the first lie.
That's the absolute antithesis of the truth. That's as far away from truth as you can get.
So it starts out with sitting in a lotus position and putting your hands in this mudra position.

(45:31):
And next thing you know, you believe that you are God.
It doesn't jump that quick, but that's the ultimate goal. Your divinity, right?
Well, does this, Mike, I don't know if you have, I know we were talking a little
bit about Rudolf Steiner before we recorded too, but, but, you know,
he has this thing called Eurythmy.
I don't know if you have any awareness on that. It's all about a motion.

(45:54):
They teach, you know, different, I guess, I don't know how you would call it.
You know, their exercise or poses or motions.
Right. I didn't know what those were, but digging into it a little more,
I found out that it's actually your calling in, like you're imitating these
energies that come from either the Akashic records or the spiritual.

(46:18):
I mean, I could totally be misspeaking here. Oh, it gets very complicated.
Yeah, I feel like it's very close, has a very close relationship to yoga.
But, you know, going back to just the definitions of yoga, yoga means to yoke with, correct? Right.
Right. Oh, you are yoking with I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt,

(46:39):
but yoking with a false concept about God, because I do believe there is only one God.
A Hindu will look you right in the eye and say there is only one God.
But we mean totally different things by that statement.
When a Hindu says there is only one God, he means there's one underlying essence,

(47:03):
universal life force, out of which all these multiplicity of deities manifest.
In Hinduism, it's 330 million gods and goddesses, but all traceable back to that one life source.
So like the characteristics, is that how they kind of describe each of the deities

(47:26):
is a characteristic of God, or at least that's how it was explained to me.
Right. Different ones have different predominant traits.
And also different deities have some very evil patterns in there.
Like Shiva is all the time lopping off the head of another god.

(47:47):
Well i mean if it's all oneness right it's
got to encompass the light and the dark and
the redness i guess you are in the next two the monistic kind of oneness yeah
yeah and so so you have this concept that there's only one god and that means
allah and yahweh you're all the same and brahman of of Hinduism,

(48:12):
ultimately are all the same God.
But that's impossible logically.
Because just to use that example, Allah is described in Muslim,
the Muslim faith, Islam, as being absolutely one, utterly one.

(48:32):
And one of the worst sins you can commit in Islam is called shirk.
S-H-I-R-K, and that's attributing divinity to anything or anyone other than Allah.
So to a Muslim, I have committed the most blasphemous sin by saying that Jesus
was God manifested in the flesh.
And so a Muslim will dismiss any claim that an avatar visited this world.

(49:00):
And many of the gurus claim to be avatars, by the way. So you have that extreme
on that end of the spectrum.
Then on the other end of the spectrum, you have Hinduism that says everything.
Advaita Vedanta Hinduism says everything is a manifestation of God.
The tree is God. The cat is God.
The flowers are God. The stars are God. Every human being is God.

(49:24):
My chair is my chair. Yeah.
Muslim will say nothing is God but God. the Hindu will say everything is God,
which is a pantheistic view.
Well, in between these two extremes, you have Christianity that provides this
concept that the Godhead is comprised of the Father, the Son,

(49:45):
and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one God.
You don't find that anywhere else in the world. So when I say there is one God,
what I mean by that statement is there's is one revelation of the true God and
one true God that you can have an encounter with that is set apart from all others.

(50:06):
What a Hindu means when the Hindu says there is only one God is a very kind and gentle way.
I admit it is very kind. It's very gentle, but very untrue that it doesn't matter
what religion you follow.
It's all the same God. Well, it's not the same God.
There's a huge And this is such a critical point.

(50:27):
There is a huge difference between having a concept about God and actually having
communion with God. Mm hmm.
Hundreds of different religions offer different concepts about God.
But only in Christianity can you have communion with God, because only in Christianity

(50:49):
can your sins be cleansed by the blood Jesus shed.
And only in Christianity does the Holy Spirit enter into you in this experience
of being born again, where you're reunited with God.
Okay, so Mike, I was curious as we were talking about the one God and different
gods. So we were talking about there's 330 million gods in Hinduism.

(51:12):
And how does that relate?
First of all, in your book, In Search of the True Light, you were mentioning,
and tell me if I got this wrong, but it seemed like those were a figment of
our imagination, all those gods.
I believe you. Were you correct? Okay. So how does that tie into— I've got to qualify that.

(51:34):
Okay. Do you want to do that? Go ahead and answer your question.
I was wondering, how does that tie into, if these are a figment,
I guess, of our imagination, ties into the spiritual,
you know, deceitful, well, I guess the deceitful spirits that we're actually
opening ourselves up to when we are practicing yoga and even meditation,
which I'd like to touch on that, you know, later.

(51:57):
Well, to go back to the scripture I quoted a while ago, 1 Corinthians 10,
verse 20, the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God.
And so how does that work? If I was a devoted Hindu and I'm falling down before
a statue of Krishna and kissing the statue you and offering fruits and flowers,

(52:22):
I'm not knowledgeably or consciously doing that to a demon.
I believe that it's Krishna.
I've been to the main Hare Krishna temple in the United States and talked to
the leader of the whole movement that assumed that leadership post after the
the founder of Ishkan, died.

(52:45):
And he was a genuine guy. He believed in what he was promoting as truth.
But I contend that even though he thinks he's worshiping this entity with a
lot of myths associated with it, in fact, the myths are really wild.

(53:05):
According to the Bhagavad Gita and various Hindu myths, Krishna was married to 16,000,
How many? I think it was 16,120 women, something like that, and had 10 children by every one of them.
Wow. Where are all those Krishna offspring in the world?

(53:27):
Because there'd be millions of them by now. Maybe they're the Nephilim.
But anyway, he sincerely believed that he was connecting with a God.
And he got spiritual sensations as a result when he chanted the Hare Krishna
chant, and they do it on 108 beads 16 times a day.

(53:52):
Do the math on 16 times 108.
That many times they're chanting a mantra over and over and over again in order
to connect with the deity.
But Jesus said, use not vain repetitions like the heathen do.
In Matthew 6, I believe it's verse 24.
He said, don't do that. Because whenever an approach to the supernatural is

(54:16):
too manipulative or mindless or mechanical or magical, it's wrong.
And the whole idea of chaining to Krishna in order to gain oneness with him is very mechanical.
Mechanical it's not an interchange a loving
interchange between human beings and god
it's a mechanical system spiritually speaking

(54:40):
a mechanical system that's supposed to ensure that connection takes place by
manipulating the spiritual realm through incantations that's not the way god
works that's not the way god moves but anyway to get back to what i said in first 1 Corinthians 10,
verse 20, even that guy that was genuine, he said he loved Krishna and would

(55:04):
chant that Hare Krishna chant so many times a day.
He was actually connecting with a demonic influence that impersonated Krishna.
And that's the thing I wanted to get across. It's not an actual entity.
I believe the entity is an imaginary myth.
Someone in ancient times imagined this myth, wrote a book called the Bhagavad

(55:31):
Gita in order to enshrine this myth, and multiplied millions have swallowed it.
But Krishna does not exist. That blue-skinned God does not exist.
And yet, that's a golden opportunity, if you will,
for an evil spirit to gain entrance into the life of someone who's using a false

(55:55):
religious approach to try and penetrate the spiritual world and come into oneness with God.
And so it becomes a conduit through which evil spirits flow.
And what do you think is in for the evil spirits, you know, like they're in the spiritual world?

(56:15):
So they want to experience what we experience? There's some jealousy or some... Apparently, they...
And I say apparently because that's a mysterious realm. But apparently they
are disembodied spirits who, to a degree, find some kind of fulfillment, if you will.

(56:39):
That's not really a good word, but they find a means of expression by inhabiting a human being.
And they apparently have to inhabit something to express themselves.
For instance, Jesus encountered a man named Legion in the Bible,
and he said, what is your name?

(57:02):
And the evil spirit in the man who was cutting himself, which is a good sign
that self-cutters are under demonic influence. He was cutting himself.
He was involved in possibly eating some of the bodies that were buried there,
very demonic type of things, and very deranged individual.

(57:25):
And he said, our name is Legion because we are many.
And they begged him not to cast them out of this man.
Because they cast them to the pigs, right, eventually. Well,
that's what happened when Jesus cast them out.
They had to find another place to inhabit, so they went into the pigs.

(57:47):
And this whole herd of pigs ran off the side of the mountain and ended up killing themselves.
So demonic possession ends up in suicidal tendencies quite often,
and they ended up killing themselves by jumping off a cliff.
But so apparently by that story, and also Jesus said when the unclean spirit

(58:10):
departs from man, it goes through dry places seeking rest, seeking rest and finding none.
It will come back to the person that it was, that it exited from.
And if that person is vulnerable and that spirit enters back in,
he'll bring seven times worse spirits with himself.
And the latter end of that person is worse than the beginning.

(58:31):
Oh, wow. So you had in your book, this little booklet here, you were,
I think you're talking about maybe the Shakti and the Shaktipa,
the spiritual transfer.
And you're describing that you had an experience like that, a spirit that was
a counterfeit spirit that was deceiving you, thinking that you had,

(58:53):
there you are connecting with God. That's what you're thinking.
What was that experience like?
Like, is that anything like what you're describing just a little bit ago?
Well, let me back up and explain that term.
Shakti is the female aspect of the universal force, and Shiva is the male aspect.
And supposedly when enlightenment takes place or samadhi, when a person achieves

(59:19):
God consciousness, the Shakti force, which is the kundalini power,
the serpent power, coiled at the base of the spine.
And it's spiritual, not physical. It's not the physical spine.
It's occupying the same space somewhat as the physical aspect.
It flows up through the spine and merges with Shiva in the crown chakra.

(59:41):
And that's when a person goes out into God consciousness, white light.
And I had an experience of white light one time where I thought I was experiencing
God, but I was really subject to demon possession. I was opening myself up to
some spirits that were taking control of me.
And thankfully, when I finally encountered Jesus, and this is a heavy,

(01:00:07):
heavy story, and not everyone will be able to receive it.
After I encountered Jesus, several days later, I was laying in bed reading the Bible.
And trying to understand the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,
which are the best books to start out with.
If somebody wants to explore biblical truth, don't start in Genesis.

(01:00:28):
Start Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. If you go to Genesis, stick with the first
few chapters, but then after that, jump over to the first four chapters of the New Testament.
Anyway, I was reading the Gospels, and I looked up, and someone had warned me.
They said, It said, after you find the Lord, you may have an encounter with

(01:00:48):
an evil spirit coming back and trying to re-inhabit you.
And if that happens, claim the blood of Jesus.
So anyway, I'm reading, and I look up, and this formless image,
it looked like a large envelope that was cloudy and throbbing.
It came through the wall and all of a sudden rushed across the room and slammed

(01:01:11):
into my forehead. hit and start.
It felt like the impression was that it was trying to pull my soul out of my body.
And I knew intuitively if it got me out this time, I'd never get back in again.
And I also knew this was the spirit, the evil spirit I had yielded to when I

(01:01:32):
did, when I attempted to experience astral projection.
And so I was paralyzed. So I could not move.
I couldn't and opened my mouth to talk. But in my mind, I thought the blood
of Jesus be upon me, the blood of Jesus be upon me.
And about the third time I thought that, that spirit pulled back from me, hovering.
It felt like it was even angry with me.

(01:01:55):
And even though I could not see the form or the image, I knew it was an evil spirit.
And that's when I could speak. And I said, the blood of Jesus be upon you.
I rebuke you away from my life. And it fled from me.
And so that convinced Convinced me, whoa, you were messing in an area you didn't need to be in. Mm-hmm.

(01:02:15):
So can we talk? We just talked about it. That was a lot. That was intense.
And you were talking about the repeated mantras, right, and the chanting.
And you even mentioned the mudras. Okay. So what are those for? Okay.
And also, very curious, I had a friend that would tell me, even to teach my

(01:02:37):
daughter to say Om Namah Shivaya.
What does that mean?
Well, let's touch on mudras first. Okay.
Supposedly, about 399 mudras in Hinduism, especially.
And I've been so far removed from it, I've forgotten all the gestures.

(01:02:59):
You did one, right? This one. Well, yeah, that one, I can explain that one.
That's usually the mudra that a person assumes when they sit in the lotus position
and do meditation or do chanting.
And it has a spiritual meaning. The forefinger means Atman, which is the Sanskrit word for soul.

(01:03:20):
And the thumb represents Brahman, which is ultimate reality in Advaita Vedanta
Hinduism, that branch of Hinduism.
So when I sit and meditate and put my fingers like that, I was told to begin
with is just completing the circuit, like you're helping the energy to flow

(01:03:42):
through you to achieve a higher state.
But then I found out later on, it's more than just completing a circuit so there
can be an energy flow through your body.
It was an invocation. I was appealing to Brahman to fully envelop and consume
me and manifest out of me.
So just by that little mudra, I'm making a serious spiritual invocation to a false god.

(01:04:11):
Wow. To a false god. and I'm opening myself up to a false realm,
whether I realize it or not.
And there's other mudras like...
A mudra in Buddhism, if I'm getting this correct. And again,
it's been 53 years, so I'm a little far removed from some of it.
But when he meditates, one of his stances in meditation was that.

(01:04:34):
And I don't remember the name of that, but that particular stance or mudra represented
the idea that everything is empty of any lasting existence.
And that was a reminder to you while you were meditating that nothing is permanent,
the impermanence of all things, of the entire universe,

(01:04:57):
which I think is a very negative and sad way of looking at the universe.
Because according to the Bible, there is an ultimate permanent thing,
and it's called the a new creation, a new heaven and a new earth.

(01:05:17):
We'll have glorified bodies. We'll live forever.
And our soul will dwell forever in the presence of God. Buddha said we don't even have a soul.
And that when we die, five parts just disassemble. And so...
Even if I was just looking at things from a very pragmatic point of view,

(01:05:37):
I'd say, I'm a little more attracted to Christianity than Buddhism.
I'd rather believe that. And I didn't respond to Christianity because I thought
it was logical because there were aspects of it I thought was illogical.
But what was your other question now?
So you're talking about the mudras and what are their purpose?

(01:06:01):
So you said for one of them, you'll be doing vocation for Brahman, right?
So we have a deceptive spirit.
There has a open door to come and hang out.
Let me mention, and I'm sorry, but I didn't want to get away from this because

(01:06:21):
I thought this would be really important. Perfect.
And then we'll get back. But usually a yoga class ends with namaste.
And that's kind
of a mudra and what the clasped
hands and the bowing gesture and the
declaration namaste means within the

(01:06:43):
framework of a Hindu point of view is I bow to the divine in you or I acknowledge
that you are a manifestation of God and you are acknowledging that I am a manifestation
of God and therefore we connect with each other it's basically a statement But then you asked about OM.
It just came back to mind. And OM Namah Shivaya specifically.

(01:07:05):
Now, I have forgotten what that means. Yeah, that's fine. You can go with OM.
I can Google it later. Put it in the show notes. Yeah, Google it later.
I can tell you what OM means.
OM is supposed, and I have a teaching on thetruelight.net.
I know I did a podcast teaching in the archives.

(01:07:27):
I may have written an article about it. but Aum Aum,
was, according to that worldview, the original sound that was made by the Godhead
during the manifestation of the universe.
So that if you chant the word Aum, you're going back to the origin of all things

(01:07:48):
and you're coming into harmony with that energy level.
In fact, Aum is so much a part of the Hindu worldview.
In my book, In Search of the True Light, I've got the symbols of Taoism,
Buddhism, and Hinduism.
Hinduism, if you can see it right there, that's the image that means Aum.
That's the Sanskrit letters that mean Aum, because that's very much a part of that belief system.

(01:08:14):
That when you say Aum. And it's also beautiful.
It's a beautiful symbol. You know, it doesn't look evil at all.
It doesn't look bad. But that resonating, monotone, mechanical sound is supposed
to bring you back into oneness with God.
But again, if I were to start off this interview by chanting one sound a thousand

(01:08:42):
times, how long would you interview me? Yeah, it'd be Chinese water torture.
Yeah, because there'd be no communication, no communication.
And to approach God that way is really, apart from whether or not it's biblically right or wrong,
it's illogical if it would be a stupid way of trying to communicate with a fellow

(01:09:06):
human being to chant something over and over and over again.
Right. And it's an insulting way to come to God because you're reducing him
to a mechanical level where you can manipulate him.
And, of course, they would not say it's a hymn. they'd say that this ultimate
reality is a force. It's an it.

(01:09:26):
But I texted somebody today and I told them, listen, in this world,
inanimate nature never produces animate living things.
Rocks never give birth to plants, right? The inanimate cannot produce the animate.
And in like manner, in like manner.

(01:09:50):
The souls of men long for something that is on the same level as them.
I'm a conscious living human being.
I want a conscious relationship with God who consciously communes with me.
And just like that example, the inanimate cannot produce the animate in like manner.

(01:10:17):
An An impersonal force, if an impersonal force is ultimate reality,
it cannot produce personal beings.
Impersonal is not going to bring forth personal. Now, the opposite might be
true, but impersonal is not going to produce personal beings.
Animate people can produce inanimate things. They can build houses.

(01:10:40):
They can build cars. They can produce things. Idols.
Statues. But inanimate things cannot produce animate things.
And in like manner, an impersonal God cannot produce personal sentient beings
who have consciousness.
It has to be a God who is personal.
So the chanting, going back to the chanting and like a personal God,

(01:11:06):
you know, that's not going to help you commune. Not going to impress him at all.
It's going to repel him. Oh, but the meaning of Om, the meaning of Om.
I told you about the origin of Om, but I didn't tell you the meaning.
They say that it's actually three syllables that are combined into one.

(01:11:27):
And it's the three gods at the head of the Hindu pantheon.
Brahma, not Brahman. Brahman is the ultimate reality, the impersonal life force.
But Brahma is the creator god or envisioned to be the creator god in Hinduism.
Shiva is the destroyer god.
And Vishnu is the preserver god.

(01:11:50):
And they say that when you say Aum, you're supposed to stretch it out into the syllables A-U-M.
And I'm not going to mimic it. But you stretch it out so that it's three syllables
in each one of those syllables. since invocation to one of those three gods.
And somebody may say, oh, three gods at the head of the Hindu pantheon?

(01:12:12):
That's the same as the triune nature of the Bible.
Bible depiction of what God is, no, is completely different.
It's completely different. You cannot compare the two. It's a completely different concept.
But they do believe when you chant Aum, it's an invocation to those three gods
to possess you and take over your life. Wow, really?

(01:12:36):
Yeah, yeah. So if you chant Aum, you're chanting to three. Even if you have
no idea what you're saying.
Because, you know, what is it? A lot of people say, you know,
it depends on your intention.
Like if your intention is to know God, if your intention is to please God,
commune with God, what is the harm?
You touched on a very, very important point. Abiola, this is fabulous. Thank you.

(01:13:02):
Because intention is not enough.
Let me give you an example. There is the Hindu god that used to be one of the
most popular gods, whose name is Indra.
I was going to name my child after that name.
Oh, my. I'm glad my husband here, he said no.

(01:13:24):
I know people whose name is Indra, and I would not want to bear that name.
But Indra was very immoral.
And Indra was caught committing adultery with a sage's wife.
This is how the myth goes. And so the sage cursed Indra with multiple yonis,

(01:13:48):
which are images of the female sex organ all over its body. So he became a very...
Despised deity, in a sense. Nobody wants to worship him.
Nobody wants. Well, I'm sure there are some who do.
But even Hindu myths say that it was through Indra that adultery came into the world. Oh, wow. Okay.

(01:14:11):
I said all of that to say this.
If I was God, and I'm not, I certainly learned that when I I became a believer in Jesus.
If I was God and someone approached me using the name Indra.
I would not respond because if I responded, I'd be validating and verifying

(01:14:32):
the myth that goes along with that particular name.
And so a name is important. The name Krishna validates and verifies all the
Bhagavad Gita story about him, which includes ideas like reincarnation, etc.
So, no wonder Romans 10.13 says, whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord

(01:14:58):
shall be saved. Not a name.
The name. Guru Nanak Sikhism said it doesn't matter.
Any name is suitable because it's all the same God.
But it's not suitable because God's not going to respond to a name that shows

(01:15:19):
a completely different aspect of what the character of God is,
especially if it's evil, especially if it's twisted theologically.
So you have to get the name right.
And I would encourage people that are into yoga that may by now be infuriated with me. Right.
With all of us. Yeah, I would encourage them. Call on the name of Jesus.

(01:15:45):
Dismiss the areas I've said that you disagree with. But call on. That's what I did.
I dedicated an entire day to Jesus. And I said, if you're the Savior.
If you're the Lord of all, if you're the pathway to salvation, give me a sign today.
And over and over again, I used his name, Jesus, or more correctly,

(01:16:06):
his name in Hebrew is Yeshua.
I think he responds to any rendering of his name, whether it's Jesus in Spanish
or Yeshua in Hebrew or Jesus in English.
I believe the intention of connecting with the Savior of the world is the same,
though his name is spoken a little differently in different languages.

(01:16:28):
But still, you're using the correct name of the correct God.
And the story attached to that name is the death, burial, and resurrection of
Jesus, the ascension of Jesus, the promise of his return.
And I believe we're the generation that will see that return.
Term. And so the name is very important.

(01:16:50):
So even if my intention, if I call Jesus by another name, but my intention is
connected with Jesus, it's just not going to work out.
No, he wouldn't respond to that because he'd be making a very confusing statement about himself.
He would be verifying myths that are not true.

(01:17:10):
And so you have to get the name right to get the path to a relationship with God right.
Which makes total sense. Makes sense to me. Now, we can't talk about yoga without
talking about meditation, right?
Because that's what you said was your practice. You meditate 14 hours a day. Is that correct?
Well, no. I was doing yoga 14 hours a day. And meditation is a part of the yogic system.

(01:17:36):
In fact, it'd be a good time to bring out that yoga is inextricable from Hinduism.
In fact, many Hindu leaders will tell you there's no yoga without Hinduism and
no Hinduism without yoga. Oh, wow. So it's that deep.
Oh, people say you can. Yeah, because I've known people that would tell me over

(01:17:56):
and over again that they've been to ashrams, they've done the practices,
the Siddhas, they've read the Bhagavad Gita, and they said it's not the same
thing. Yoga is yoking with God.
Hinduism is, you know, the religion. Yoga is not a religion.
But it's, well, let me explain it this way. Okay.

(01:18:16):
Many years ago, I was blessed to, my wife and I were blessed to win a prostitute to the Lord.
And it's a long story I won't go into because we've already been going almost
two hours. Right, right.
But anyway, we were in Atlanta, Georgia, holding a tent meeting there.

(01:18:37):
And this man and one of his prostitutes, he was a pimp. She was a prostitute.
I came up in a pickup truck outside the tent and listened to what was going on.
And the girl was a backslider. She'd known the Lord at an early age and got
hung up on drugs and then eventually a prostitution lifestyle.

(01:18:58):
My wife felt led while I was preaching to go outside and saw them sitting there
and started witnessing to them.
And the girl broke down crying and the guy got upset because he didn't want to lose her and took off.
Well, she got word to my wife that they had a front for the prostitution ring,
and it was a legitimate front where they would launder the money.

(01:19:21):
It was a restaurant about two miles away, and all the girls would serve as waitresses
in the restaurant during the day.
And then at night, they would walk the streets. And the reason I'm bringing
this out is she did get saved.
She got word to my wife. She said, if you'll pull up behind the restaurant at

(01:19:41):
a certain point, certain time, she gave her an exact time.
She said, if you'll be there exactly at that time, I'll run out the back door
and jump in your car and you can get me over to the tent meeting and I can get
right with God. And my wife's bold.
Believe me. I mean, she said, this girl told my wife, if you're five minutes
late, we'll both get shot. Oh, my God.

(01:20:04):
So my wife showed up right at the time. And she ran out, jumped in the car,
sped off to the tent meeting, interrupted my sermon.
She ran to the altar, fell on the altar, repenting and asking God to forgive
her and gave her heart to the Lord.
And God was so gracious. He set the thing up where she could be rescued because

(01:20:26):
while we were praying with her, she looked up with tears running down her cheeks
and she said, they'll kill me. They'll kill me if they find me.
I said, where are you from? She said, I'm from Gastonia, North Carolina.
And there was a young woman in the altar helping us pray for her.
Looked up wide-eyed and said, I'm from Gastonia, North Carolina.

(01:20:48):
And she said, God woke me up this morning and told me to drive down to Atlanta to this meeting.
And I've got to drive back right after church so I can go to tomorrow.
She said, I'll take you there.
And I told the girl, I said, your chauffeur-driven limousine is waiting for you.
God said, that is incredible. The pimp ended Ended up getting saved too.

(01:21:11):
And they shut the restaurant down. Really?
Shut the prostitution ring down. Long story, like I said.
But what I wanted to show you is they had a legitimate front,
the restaurant, that had a very illegitimate thing that was going on behind the scenes.
And exercising, doing hatha yoga, it looks like a very legitimate and non-intrusive

(01:21:38):
front, that you can do that without getting contaminated by all these other things.
But it hides something very illegitimate and wrong.
And that's why I tell people never to do it. Don't do it. Don't meditate.
Don't do the yoga. yoga because just by
getting on a yoga mat you're saying whether you
realize or not you're what if you have a yoga mat should you

(01:22:02):
throw it out okay throw it away throw it away all your yoga paraphernalia all
my yoga don't throw away the pants pants are good so if you say i'm putting
on my yoga pants you're saying i'm really clothing myself with brahman oh no
can we just call him something else? I'm sorry.
Are you going to have to empty out some old drawers? My Lululemon?

(01:22:27):
Oh, no. Okay, but back to meditation.
Okay, so... Yeah, we got to get away from that subject. Quit,
don't. Yes, that's right.
I'm not wearing them, though. Just saying.
Meditation. What are your thoughts on meditation? Because, you know,
there's meditation apps all over the place.

(01:22:48):
I used to do my five-minute meditation because, I mean, I could barely do one,
you know, but I felt like I felt better afterwards.
What are the dangers of emptying ourselves and our thoughts,
right, or just observing them? What are the dangers there?
Well, let me respond first by saying that is a vast subject. Mm-hmm.

(01:23:14):
It takes a lot of time to unpack. Okay. And I have two interviews I did with
a group not far from me in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
And on one, I went into, I think it was like eight different types of meditation.
Okay. That are offered in Taoism and Shinto and Hinduism and Buddhism.

(01:23:36):
They're not all the same. That's what you're saying. No, they're not all the
same. We can probably link that on the show notes if people want to get deeper into the subject.
And then I also did one hour-long interview.
That was an hour. And then another hour-long interview on biblical meditation.
But it can be summarized this way. Almost all meditation from Far Eastern religions

(01:23:59):
and New Age spirituality involves emptying your mind so that you can have mystical experiences.
Okay, that's the goal, the mystical experiences. Right.
But once again, if your meditation practice is too manipulative or mechanical
or magical, or if it's too mindless, then it's wrong.

(01:24:24):
It's wrong. Because the whole goal through meditation is not mindlessness.
It's wrong in the Christian perspective, or is it wrong even in the Eastern perspective?
Well, of course, it wouldn't be wrong to them. Okay, okay. But they're using a wrong method.
Okay. Because God is not the silence where you enter into the silence and you

(01:24:46):
have these mystical encounters.
True biblical meditation is when you read the Bible.
And there's two different ways to read the Bible.
You can have a very analytical way of reading the Bible where you've got your
concordance out and you're looking
up scriptures and you're comparing this scripture with that scripture.
Or you can read the Bible in a very heartfelt, prayerful way where you're wanting

(01:25:10):
the Holy Spirit to inspire you through what you read. And I do it both ways.
And that has nothing to do with what people call contemplative prayer?
Well, they would use that as part of their whole system of belief,
but they believe in this mindless kind of meditation.
They believe in mantra-like meditation too Because people into contemplative

(01:25:34):
prayer will even tell you to repeat certain biblical words or the Jesus prayer
is something like, Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner. And you say that over and over and over thousands
of times. So another counterfeit.
Yeah, another counterfeit. Contemplative prayer is the wrong approach. Okay.

(01:25:54):
And I believe that, however, that there is a value to reading the Bible prayerfully
where I'm not immediately flipping
to concordance to find out the Hebrew meaning or the Greek meaning.
I'm reading just to receive the revelation of God's Word. I love that.

(01:26:17):
I love that. And that's meditation from a biblical standpoint.
Well, you're filling your, you know, you are recognizing that you are filled with the Spirit, right?
So you're not emptying yourself.
You're filling your mind with the Word of God.

(01:26:38):
And if it's truly the Word of God, there's going to be an influx of the presence
of the Holy Spirit accompanying that. And that's how you meditate in a Christian
sense, in a biblical sense.
And we didn't even get to talk about the Nephilim, but I think we did pretty well.
Yes. I will also, if people are curious about the whole story with the fallen

(01:27:02):
angels and the Nephilim and all that.
And also, you know, when God at the Tower of Babel, you know,
confused the languages and separated the nations and have given,
you know, different, I guess,
smaller G-gods dominion of certain nations.

(01:27:22):
Do you think that's at all related to Hinduism?
And that was, you know, is that a big question?
All right. Maybe we'll touch that on part three. I don't think there's any proof.
That I could supply. I may have theories about what happened at the Tower of
Babel, but there's no biblical record and there's no historical record.

(01:27:46):
But I do believe that's when people tended toward different cultures and different
pursuits of religious reality or spiritual reality,
when they were divided up in languages that probably result,

(01:28:08):
and again I say probably because I don't know I don't know if that's probably when there was a whole um.
Mass of different spiritual interpretations of what's going on in this life
that emerged in different societies, different cultures among different peoples.
Right. I mean, if we can even get our own language inverted as we're talking

(01:28:29):
about the word awful, imagine what else can get inverted and confused.
Okay, so to wrap this up, we know the phrase that it's easier to fool someone
then convince them they have been fooled.
So for people that have been practicing yoga and meditation and are convinced
it's been beneficial, like you were, like I was as well, it made their lives better.

(01:28:55):
But now they have, they are considering a path with Christ and giving their life to Christ.
What are the alternatives there as far as, you know, exercise go, even stretches.
What did you do when you converted since you're not doing yoga?
Did you even do anything remotely exercise related? To be honest with you,

(01:29:17):
my wife works out at the Y.
My daughter works out at the gym.
I work out by cleaning up in the backyard and fixing up the garage and lifting
heavy weights around the house.
Really, I haven't done systematic kind of way of exercise in many years.

(01:29:39):
I have run on a treadmill, and I like to jog sometimes.
But I'm not too much into physical exercise. You and me both, Mike.
If I've got an hour, I don't want to do push-ups. I want to clean up the backyard
and haul up some logs and do things that involve physical exercise.

(01:30:02):
So basically what you're saying is go clean your house. Put it in order.
Forget it. It's a lot more production. What a strange way of ending the program.
Okay. So less thoughts for people that maybe we picked their interests and maybe
we had shown them that maybe yoga and meditation are the best.

(01:30:24):
Paths to a union with God and enlightenment.
Do you have any last thoughts for them? Yes. I would like to tie it all together this way. All right.
In John chapter 3, Jesus talked to a man named Nicodemus.
And he told Nicodemus something that we don't find anywhere else in the New
Testament, very profound words.

(01:30:44):
He said, you must be born again.
And then he said, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God, which is a very intense statement.
So what does it mean to be born again?
The word that's translated again in most English Bibles is the word anathan,
the Greek word anathan that means from above.

(01:31:06):
And that really helps understand what Jesus meant. You must be born from above.
In fact, anathan is translated from above.
A number of times in the New Testament. So when you're born from above,
you invite Jesus, who is Lord of eternity, into your heart.
According to Ephesians 3.17, Christ dwells in your heart by faith.

(01:31:30):
And then Romans 10, verses 8 through 10, talk about how if you confess with
your lips the Lord Jesus, and you believe in your heart that God has raised
him from the dead, you shall be saved.
And then Romans 10, 13 says, whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall
be saved. So all of those things mixed together.
You repent of your sin, which means more than feeling sorry over your sin.

(01:31:54):
You believe you have to have an element of faith because by grace you're saved through faith.
So you believe Jesus, I believe you died on the cross.
Even if if you're struggling, I struggled the first time I prayed.
I wondered, is this legitimate or not?
Is this a crazy thing to pray or does it work?
But I went ahead and pushed through my doubts. And I said, Jesus,

(01:32:16):
if you're there, come into my heart. I invite you to be Lord of my life. I repent of my sins.
Fill me with your Holy Spirit. I receive by faith the gift of eternal life.
I believe you rose from the dead.
You ascended to heaven. And I believe you're Lord order my life right now.
And bam, it happened. Now, repeating a prayer or going through the motions of

(01:32:39):
saying a prayer like that does not necessarily ensure that a person will get born again.
But meaning it with all your heart is very good insurance that you will connect with the Lord.
And that will prove itself.
You won't need me to prove who Jesus is if you encounter him yourself.
You will have the ultimate experience.

(01:33:00):
Mike, would you pray for us and the people that are watching us out there and listening to us? Sure.
Lord, I just pray that if there's anyone in the sound of my voice right now
listening to this interview that is having...
A desire, rise up in their heart to know God. They're experiencing a longing

(01:33:23):
deep inside to be filled with the presence of God.
I pray that the Holy Spirit will come into their heart and into their lives
right now, and that Jesus, you will cleanse them from all sin by the blood that
you shed on the cross, and that you will become Lord of their lives.
I pray that those who are struggling and still can't hardly embrace the ideas

(01:33:47):
that I've communicated.
That you will pour into their lives the Spirit of truth, a name for the Holy
Spirit, the Spirit of truth, who will lead and guide them into all truth.
And I pray that this will be a step the right direction.
Thank you for your blessing upon everything that we have communicated tonight. night.

(01:34:08):
May it speak into people's lives in a very profound way so that they can find
the peace that they desire from the Prince of Peace himself,
in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.
That was beautiful. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, Mike.
And I don't know when we've got it scheduled, but I'm really excited for our talk on Catholicism.

(01:34:31):
I can't wait for that one. So everybody, if you're excited about that,
stay tuned. We'll get that scheduled sometime in the future.
But thank you again Thank you again so much, Mike. God bless.
Let me mention one last thing, if you don't mind.
This book goes into more detail about my conversion than anything else.
And it's a free download on my website, thetruelight.net.

(01:34:53):
And I go into great, that's a picture of me back when I was a yoga teacher right there. There you are.
So anyway, it's free. I will have it. I'll have the link in the show notes.
Any other resources you want to share? No.
And, of course, In Search of the True Light is a comparison of over 20 religions.
Amazing book. And I show the commonalities. I also show the contradictions.

(01:35:17):
And I show how the contradictions make it absolutely impossible to blend them
all together and makes it absolutely necessary to single out the one that is right.
And, of course, I believe Christianity, being a follower of Jesus,
is right. And so the truelight.net is the main resource for people.

(01:35:38):
They can go to the page that has all the archived podcasts.
They can go to the page that has numerous articles on relevant subjects.
And also, if there's people interested in the whole idea of Catholicism compared
to authentic biblical Christianity,

(01:35:59):
then I would encourage them to go to the website, twocatholicswithlove.org.
Beautiful.
And the next interview we do may be the interview on this book. It will be that book.
We're going to uncover all these burning questions. I know. I'm so excited. I'm so excited.

(01:36:19):
We are so excited. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today and for sharing
this beautiful message of our
blessing. I wish I lived in Idaho where we could go have lunch together.
I know, I know. I mean, you weren't always invited to come. Yeah,
if you're ever passing through, which I know happens for a lot of people.
You know, your way to Canada and the Rockies, which are beautiful, by the way.

(01:36:42):
All right, we'll let you get back to your wife.
We appreciate you spending the time with us. Thanks, Mike. Sure.
Bye. It's been a good time.
All right, man, Mike, what a great guy. I'm so excited he could join us again.
I can't wait to do that last episode.
For those of you at home, I was thinking we were doing the Catholicism episode today.

(01:37:06):
So when I heard we were doing yoga, which I still find really intriguing and
everything given the popularity of yoga, but I was just bummed because I've been consuming,
I've been learning a lot of stuff I did not know about Catholicism and Protestantism,
You know, just understanding the difference. I didn't really understand the difference.
So you're going to do a whole episode on that, aren't you? Yeah,

(01:37:26):
yeah, yeah. Right from up here, because that's how I roll. Yeah.
I'm more conversational. That great memory. I have to write things down and plan them out.
But I just felt like it was time to talk about yoga and meditation,
because it's just everywhere.
Even my family being, you know, Catholics, I remember from being super little.

(01:37:47):
I believe my mother was doing yoga poses when I was in her belly.
It's that integral to my life experience.
So we just had to talk about it. We had to talk about meditation. We just had to do it.
I mean, even if you don't put much water in or hold much water for any of this
religious stuff and whatnot, I mean, I think it's just super interesting because

(01:38:11):
I think that people don't realize,
you know, it's kind of like, you know, I grew up singing Ring Around the Rosie
and I had no idea it had to do with, you know, the Holocaust,
you know, I didn't learn that until I was in my twenties, I think.
And so, you know, you think this is just some nursery rhyme type thing and,
and then it's got a pretty dark backstory.
We should do a lot of nursery rhymes too. Yeah. Yeah.

(01:38:34):
So, so anyway, so it's, it's just interesting to understand the roots and what
is connected because when you are participating, you know, you might like to
know, okay, this is tied to this. This is what you're doing.
This is tied to this. We are finding that many experiences that we've had in
life, we had no idea, you know, what the root was.
Waldorf Education being one of them, we had no, no idea. We just thought it was the.

(01:38:57):
This great education that was educating the whole child. And we dove into that
and it's hard to get out. It's probably going to be an episode.
Yeah. But we've got some thoughts and, and, and again, I mean.
Tons of good people, you know, and again, the same with yoga, right? Yeah.
Lots of good people. The spirituality, the message.

(01:39:17):
I think that's what a lot of people have trouble with and, and why Mike's message,
his ministry, his book in search of the true light and his,
story, his yoga, little yoga booklet is so important because it is important
for you to understand what you're doing.
That it's not, it's a counterfeit. It's not this benign thing that we've been led to believe.

(01:39:41):
And isn't that true with most things we do online, right?
That we think is benign and then when we really expect it, it's shocking.
So that's why we wanted to bring this information forward.
I mean, we choose to give stuff power.
And obviously, we want the most complete picture of that thing if we're going

(01:40:03):
to give it so much power in our life. Exactly.
Time, right? Yeah, time, effort.
Everybody's busy. Yeah. And so I think that's been a big part of what this podcast,
I think, has tried to do is just inspect things a little bit further and say, okay, well,
you might be left with the same belief structure after consuming this or you
might think oh I still think that's pretty yeah out there I don't buy into it

(01:40:26):
but at least you know okay well look it is a thread that's part of the tapestry
of this thing so so that's what we're trying to explore all right well.
Fabi I know we still don't have a tagline let's just be determined to do it
by episode 100 okay that's right we'll do it all right everybody thank you for

(01:40:47):
joining us smash like if you liked what you heard.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Spiritual Risks of Yoga with Mike Shreve

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

The Spiritual Risks of Yoga with Mike Shreve

Crime Junkie