November 10, 2025 • 46 mins
Mobeen Tahir shares practical tools for simplifying language, structuring ideas, and delivering with precision and care.
• bridging the gap between what you want to say and what the audience needs
• the cost of poor delivery on credibility and timing
• simplifying jargon into plain, repeatable language
• using why what how to move from information to action
• designing slides around a single, clear takeaway
• small delivery shifts that change impact
• earning trust by showing care and empowering teams
• practical tips for leaders and employees to improve fast
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose
I've poured all my best work into my newest book, Amplifying Your Leadership Voice: From Silent to Speaking Up. If today's episode resonated with you, I know the book will be a powerful tool. You can preorder it now to be one of the first to get your copy when it is out in December!
Thanks for listening and for being a part of The Communicative Leader community. To get even more exclusive tips—like the ones we talked about today—join us at TheCommunicativeLeader.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of The Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr.
Leah O, and today we have aguest whose expertise in
strategic leadershipcommunication is really
unparalleled.
We're joined by Mobine Tahir, adirector at Wisdom Tree who has
dedicated his career todemystifying complex financial
information for investors,executives, and the media.
(00:22):
So in this world, now driven bydata and AI, the ability to
articulate a clear message is nolonger a soft skill, my
friends.
This is a critical businessimperative.
Mobine's unique approach tocommunication bridges this gap
between technical expertise andhuman understanding, and it
empowers leaders to transformcomplex data into clear,
(00:45):
actionable dialogue.
Mobine's work aligns with the2023 McKinsey report, showing
that 67% of executives believeimproved communication has
positively impacted businessperformance.
You know I can get behind that.
So in today's episode, we'regoing to explore how Mobean
strategies can help you elevateyour corporate messaging, foster
(01:08):
clear decision making, and leadwith a truly strategic voice.
If you're ready to make yourcommunication a powerful asset
for your organization, thisepisode is packed with practical
insights for you.
Let's dive in and have somefun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader, hosted by
(01:29):
me, Dr.
Leah O'Millian My friends callme Dr.
O.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On The Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
So, Mobine, welcome to theCommunicative Leader.
(01:50):
And I know you have thisincredible talent for making
complex finance informationunderstandable.
And I was hoping, as you know,to start our journey to give us
a nice foundation, if you couldhelp us understand how you went
from really working with a worldof data and numbers, which I
know you're still immersed inthere, but to also becoming this
(02:11):
passionate advocate forstrategic leadership
communication.
Mobeen Tahir (02:15):
Sure, Leah.
And thank you so much forhaving me on the show.
It's a pleasure to be here.
My own journey, I think, indiscovering my calling in life
was uh a process of elimination,I believe.
When when I was growing up, Isaw my sister studying for uh
medicine, and that's when Irealized that's something I
can't do.
(02:36):
So that's something Ieliminated from my uh my plans
there and then.
And then eventually, when Istudied finance and entered the
finance industry, now you youthink that you study a finance
degree at university, that's avery streamlined career path.
Well, no, you can go intofinance and have lots of
different careers within thatsame industry, lots of different
(02:59):
skill sets being employed.
And early on in my career, Iwas doing a lot of data-heavy
work, very quantity work, wherethere were a lot of spreadsheets
and models involved and numbercrunching involved.
And again, that process ofelimination, I realized maybe
that wasn't for me.
What I eventually discovered Ienjoy doing is articulating
(03:24):
meaning and synthesizing complexmessages into simpler messages
and communicating themeffectively.
And when I found a role thatallowed me to do that, that's
when I really started enjoyingit.
So in that journey where Irealized that that was my
calling, I also realized thatthere is a lack of focus,
(03:47):
particularly in the financeindustry.
I can speak for the financeindustry where I come from, but
I think it can be applied toother industries as well.
There's a lot of focus on doingthe work, whether it's
researching a particular topic,whether it's forming views on
any particular thing, there'svery little emphasis on how that
(04:09):
will eventually be communicatedand delivered.
And I'm a strong advocate thatdelivery should come first
because once you know theprinciples of good delivery that
gets you into that disciplineof organizing your material in
the right way that makes theright impression.
And that lack of focus made methink that not only do I want to
(04:35):
make sure my presentations havethose aspects of delivery.
So I focus about focus onlearning and developing those
things myself, but also in thecapacity of a public speaking
coach, which is a side hustlethat I started after working in
the finance industry, I look tobring that focus back to
(04:56):
business professionals andcorporates, that this is
something that can really be agame changer for you.
Dr. Leah OH (05:02):
Yeah, yeah, so important.
And of course, I'm I'm aleadership communication
scholar.
So this is music to my ears.
But you're even, I and I think,you know, you hit on the bill,
you're coming from finance, butwhatever these entrenched areas
of expertise, when you'redrinking the Kool-Aid, when that
(05:23):
is the jargon is what you'reusing and writing in day in and
day out, it becomes really hardto remember that storytelling
component to another audience.
So kudos to you for thinkingabout that and kind of starting
with that rather than getting tothe end point and being like,
they'll get it, right?
They're gonna get it.
This makes sense.
(05:43):
So great.
So let's think about kind ofthe the impact of being able to
communicate clearly.
So, you know, there's a recentMcKinsey report and it
highlights that improvedcommunication can positively
impact business performance foralmost 70% of executives.
Now, that is a reallycompelling statistic.
(06:05):
So I'm wondering from yourperspective, what are some of
the most striking examples ofhow poor communication, so we're
gonna flip it, especially inhigh-stakes environments, how
can that negatively affect anorganization's bottom line?
Mobeen Tahir (06:20):
I was at a conference where I was meant to
speak on stage.
And before my turn came, I wassitting in the audience.
Now I'm sitting in the audiencelistening to another speaker
speak, and I take a look at mywatch and realize that maybe the
speaker is coming to the end oftheir allocated time.
(06:41):
And at this point, I notice themoderator of the event, he
stands up from his uh seat, andthat's a sign normally to a
speaker on stage that you'reapproaching your time, and maybe
it's it's a good idea to wrapup.
And I see the moderator is nowstanding, and the speaker
(07:03):
continues to speak.
Okay, so now immediatelythere's a bit of tension uh
building up.
And a few minutes pass, and themoderator is now looking at his
watch, he starts to pace.
And to the point that peoplestart noticing the moderator
pacing in one part of the room,and the attention of the
audience has gone away from thespeaker on stage to the
(07:27):
moderator now pacing and beinguneasy in this situation.
So there's clearly an elephantin the room, all because the
speaker has not realized thatthey've gone over time.
And the reason why they hadgone over time was they were
delivering great insights,right?
They had a smart persondelivering great insights on
(07:49):
stage, but the mistake that theyhad made was to organize their
message in a way that theydidn't see that they were
allocated 20 minutes.
Well, how many messages can youbring to a 20-minute
presentation?
If you bring 37 slides and 50talking points, you will
(08:10):
inevitably cause the host of theorganization to have a slight
heart uh situation.
Right.
So this was indeed the casethere and then.
And when the speaker finished,of course, the focus of the
audience was drawn to the factthat the speaker had gone over
their time.
And instead of appreciating allthe great insights that the
(08:33):
speaker had delivered, they werenow thinking, okay, now the
rest the other speaker, how'sthe moderator going to adjust
the timing of the conference,what's going to happen next,
what an awkward situation.
Dr. Leah OH (08:45):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (08:46):
And suddenly it undermines the credibility of
the speaker on stage.
So simple things like when Iteach leaders that managing your
time is not just aboutrespecting the schedule for the
day, it's about ensuring thatyour credibility remains intact.
Such an important thing becausesmall mistakes that lack of
(09:09):
focus on this importantprinciple that you need to
organize your messages in in away that you hit your allocated
time can have all the impact onyour on your credibility and
your message and your goal inactually being there.
And and and it's so easy tomake those adjustments, just
(09:30):
having the right focus.
So, to your question, if if youdon't do that, you end up in
those sorts of situations whereeven if you have great messages,
you can undermine yourcredibility.
Dr. Leah OH (09:41):
Yeah, what a powerful example.
And certainly, I mean, I'msitting here feeling like
secondhand embarrassment.
I was not there.
But I think we've all been insituations like that where then
all of a sudden, like you said,we realize we're not even
listening to this expert who isprobably even earning an
honorarium, or at the veryleast, they're, you know, this
(10:03):
is a professional feather intheir cap.
We're not listening to them.
We're looking at thesenonverbals.
Like you said, we're feelingthat tension.
All of a sudden, we're justtuned into this drama that's
happening rather than theseinsights.
So thank you for raising thatup.
And I think too, so many peopleinadvertently look over the
(10:24):
power of holistic communication,which is not just what we're
saying verbally or with ourbody, but as you said,
respecting the situation and thecontext.
So being respectful of the timewe've been allocated, being
mindful that if we're notthinking about these things,
then we are really positioned todo some damage to our
(10:45):
credibility, like you said.
Yeah.
So, Bean, let's talk about thiscorporate communication gap.
And so, you know, one of theelements that you focus on is
bridging the corporatecommunication gap.
And I was hoping you coulddefine this for us.
What is this gap that you seein your work?
(11:06):
And what are some of theseearly warning signs when you
realize an organization isreally starting to break down in
communication between leaders,between its teams, and between
external stakeholders?
Mobeen Tahir (11:18):
Of course.
So any communication,particularly in corporate
communication, of course, thereis what the speaker needs to
communicate.
So that's your talking point.
There's the message that acompany needs to communicate.
Yes.
But there is what the audienceneeds.
And of course, if you'rerunning a business, ultimately
(11:40):
you're looking to solve aproblem of your customer.
The gap is in bridging thosetwo things.
So the the two things have tocome together.
Yes, you have a message toconvey, but if it doesn't solve
the problem, then the message ismeaningless.
There's no point.
(12:00):
And so often we see businessesfail to appreciate that they are
there to serve a customer.
And just uh we we see this allthe time.
For example, I in my personallife, I like to notice
situations where businesses failme as a customer, and that
(12:21):
that's a learning outcome forme.
Yeah.
I I recently was out for a walkwith my family, and we got some
ice cream, right?
We got ice cream, and we wepicked out an ice cream that I
had been having all my life.
So this was a known brand thatI've known since I was a child,
and there was an impression inmy mind about the quality that I
(12:44):
was expecting from this icecream because I've been having
this all my life.
I know the quality that I'mgoing to get.
And of course, when you'rehaving ice cream, you you know,
okay, it's a decision, right?
You you you think, okay, I'mI'm going to consume all those
calories, I'm gonna consume allthat sugar.
It better be worthwhile.
So I I of course open thewrapper and I dive into the ice
(13:08):
cream, and soon enough I realizethat this is not the same ice
cream I've been having all mylife.
The the the external layer ofchocolate that's meant to be on
the ice cream has thinned andit's now half the thickness that
it used to be.
There, there's a there's a coreinside it which has shrunk in
(13:28):
size.
So the quality has justcompletely vanished.
Yeah.
And in some parts of thebusiness, what we call it
shrinkflation.
So that they they either raisethe their prices or they reduce
the quality or the size of thepro of the of the product.
But in that moment, they'velost me as a customer forever.
Dr. Leah OH (13:49):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (13:50):
And what a shame.
Now, if as a business, thatthat company that's making the
ice cream, their goal is toserve the needs of the customer.
And if the customer isdisappointed, then you know
that's it.
Game over.
Game over for that business.
So the same idea applies to anycommunication that look, you
(14:12):
have to think about what is itthat the customer needs.
If I am in a situation where Iam talking to another person,
whether it's one person orstanding on stage addressing
your company or addressing aconference, ultimately those
people are there to getsomething of value from you.
And if the mindset starts fromyou recognizing that you are
(14:35):
there to serve the audience,then the communication is
impactful, it is meaningful, andthen your talking points will
actually land because they aredesigned in a way to serve.
Dr. Leah OH (14:49):
Yeah, exactly.
Because you're right.
I think so many timesindividuals and organizations
make the mistake of thinking,you know, talk or just posting
on a site is communication.
You're like, it's just morenoise, right?
Because it's not landing, likeyou're saying.
We're not developing ameaningful connection there.
(15:14):
Uh, we're just kind of addingmore noise to an already very
noisy life, right?
So thank you.
That's really, really helpful.
And I think too, it's animportant reminder that we see
this in all aspects of our life,you know, and that's one thing
I really love about studying andworking in communication, and I
(15:34):
imagine you do as well, is whenwe spend a little bit of time
and intention here, not onlydoes it help us professionally,
but we start to recognize thingsmaybe at home or families or
friends that maybe before wewould have interrupted or we
would not have, we would havebeen thinking about our response
instead of being fully engaged.
(15:54):
And it's just a nice reminderof the power of what you're
doing.
Mobeen Tahir (16:00):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Dr. Leah OH (16:02):
Yeah.
So let's think about somebarriers.
We're going to continue tothink about these barriers that
pop up when we try tocommunicate.
And particularly in the areathat you're working in, in
finance, I imagine in some techindustries as well.
We have so many subject matterexperts who are truly, you know,
at the forefront in theirfields, but they can struggle to
(16:25):
translate that expertise intoan accessible and compelling
narrative.
So I'm wondering, Obin, in yourwork, what are some of these,
what is the biggest barrierpreventing them from being able
to translate this?
And why do you think it's sohard to overcome?
Mobeen Tahir (16:43):
It's somewhat related to that previous point
where you're too much in yourown mind about communicating all
the stuff that you have in yourmind that's it's easy to forget
that ultimately you are thereat the service of someone else.
I've been in presentationswhere I've been in the audience
(17:03):
receiving a presentation, andI've felt absolutely stupid
because I have not because Ifind myself not understanding
what's being said.
And then I'm thinking, am I theonly one here who doesn't
understand the message that isbeing communicated?
But I'm sure there are otherswho are thinking the same thing.
(17:28):
And in in one instance, forexample, there was this
presentation that I waslistening to, and it was
particularly difficult tounderstand.
And as I asked myself thequestion, why is it that I'm
unable to understand thispresentation?
It boiled down to language.
And language, it's not that theperson was speaking English,
(17:50):
and and and I've and everyone inthis in the room spoke English.
The problem was not thelanguage in the sense that they
were speaking a differentlanguage, but even within
English, they were speaking thelanguage of their domain.
So of course they they theycame from a computer science
background, which meant that theterminology that they were
(18:13):
using were it included words andterms that people who didn't
come from a computer sciencebackground would find difficult
to understand.
Now, of course, if you arewithin a situation where
everyone in the room speaks thesame language, it's absolutely
fine.
Of course, you then you don'tneed to some sometimes acronyms
(18:38):
are perfectly well understood.
Dr. Leah OH (18:40):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (18:40):
Sometimes certain terminology is perfectly well
understood.
But sometimes there might bepeople from different domains
sitting in the same room, andyou have to make a case for
whatever you are trying toconvey in a language that is
understandable to everyone.
And so the simple rule is to atleast simplify it.
(19:02):
Um and and there's that idea,right?
If you can't explain it insimple terms, then you you don't
understand it well enoughyourself, right?
So that's the that's thestarting principle.
And I I like that principle,even in situations where you
think you're in in inside yourown domain, it's it's always a
(19:22):
good rule to simplify themessage as much as possible.
Yeah.
And convey it with brevity.
Brevity is another key one thatif if you can't convey it with
brevity, it means you haven'torganized your thoughts well
enough.
So I think the the first thingis to know well who is it that
you are speaking to.
Like, you know, people say thatif you if someone asks you what
(19:46):
do you do for a living, well,the answer should depend on who
asks you, right?
It if it's if it's going to beuh a a friend, you will respond
differently.
If you strike up a conversationwith a stranger, you will
respond differently.
If it's a person from a certainprofession, you might you might
(20:06):
respond in a way that makes itmore understandable to them.
You might create an analogythat works for them.
So ultimately, your responsewill depend on your audience,
and that's that's the key withany communication.
So the barrier to effectivecommunication, particularly in
corporates, is we often getcaught up using our own language
(20:29):
when we must realize we shouldat least make progress towards
using or adopting the languagethat is understandable to our
audience.
Dr. Leah OH (20:40):
Yes, yeah.
And that's and you're right.
I think even if everyone in theroom understands the same
acronyms and jargon, when yousimplify the message, when you,
you know, you take that extrastep, I think the goal is to
make that message repeatable sopeople all leave with the same
(21:00):
understanding too.
Because as we said, the amountof information, particularly for
folks in corporateenvironments, is is daunting,
right?
The number of decisions anddiscussions.
So even if you are speaking thesame language with others, like
you said, that to simplify itand keep it brief is just going
(21:22):
to be a better way forward,regardless, right?
So yeah, that's it always likewith communication and
organizations and telling themeven if you don't love this or
buy into this or see this as asoft skill, if you want to have
better decision making, if youwant to have more effective
relationships, that that simple,brief, compelling,
(21:44):
audience-focused communicationis what you need.
Yeah.
So let's dive more into yourapproach, Mobine.
And you talk about thestrategic voice.
And when you're working withleaders, this is a goal of the
work that you're doing withthem.
So he's hoping you could helpus to understand, you know, how
(22:04):
do you help to begin someone totransform their communication
from being merely informativeand kind of just pushing content
to being more influential?
Mobeen Tahir (22:17):
One framework that works very well in most
situations, particularly whenyou are making a pitch.
And a pitch could be selling aproduct or service, but it could
also be just selling an idea.
Ultimately, whenever we aremaking a presentation, we might
be selling an idea, trying tochange someone's mind about
(22:38):
something.
Dr. Leah OH (22:39):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (22:39):
Even if we are convincing a colleague about
whether we should pursue aparticular project or not.
As a leader, we might be tryingto get our teams motivated
about rallying behind aparticular endeavor, a business
project, and so forth.
So it is still pitching anidea.
So a good framework that thatworks very well in most
(23:02):
situations is the why what howframework.
And the why what how frameworkthat I teach to my clients is
well, always start with why.
And I really like uh SimonSinek's framework.
Start with why he wrote a bookon this as well.
So start with why because whyis is explaining the reason why
(23:23):
you should be interested in thistopic, why this matters.
Why am I here to talk to youabout this today?
Why are we having thisconversation?
So, why is the most importantframework setting question?
Then it's the what.
What is going into the details?
And of course, there is somedegree of detail that has to be
(23:45):
discussed and outlined in theconversation.
This is your opportunity.
Once the why has beenestablished, this is the
opportunity to go into the whatand say, well, these are the
details that we should beworking on.
And then the how comes in,which again goes back to well,
how can the audience benefit orhow can we move forward?
(24:06):
And how can we do somethingvaluable from whatever is being
pitched?
So how is essentially theforward-looking bit.
So how can how can you benefit?
If you're making a pitch to toin front of an audience,
ultimately you want to show themhow they can benefit from your
(24:27):
message.
And if you're a leader pitchingan idea to your business, you
have to convince them how canthe business, including them as
individuals and collectively asa business, well, how can we all
benefit from this idea?
So why, what, how?
And that that's a goodframework to communicate even
the most complex of ideas, butof course, adapt it to whatever
(24:50):
the situation is.
But that's a good startingpoint, particularly if you have
too many thoughts.
I've got these 50 things tosay.
Well, how do I organize it in acompelling message?
Normally, that framework is agood starting point.
Dr. Leah OH (25:07):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and what it strikes mewith this suggestion, and so
many that I hear in here is thesimplest suggestions are the
most powerful because they'rethe ones that we're going to
remember.
They're the ones that this why,what, how, whether you're
getting ready for an industrykeynote, or like you said,
you're going into a meeting withyour team, taking, you know,
(25:30):
even if it's two minutes all theway up to several hours to kind
of do a quick touch base meansthat you're going to be shaping
that information in a way thatis audience centered.
Mobeen Tahir (25:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (25:44):
Really helpful.
So talking about complexity,and especially in finance, I
imagine you work with a lot offolks who have very dense,
data-heavy reports andcomplicated information.
And so I'm wondering then, youknow, what do we do if we have
this type of content?
How do we convert it then intothis clear, engaging message
(26:08):
that's going to connect with thenon-technical audience?
So maybe it's a board ofdirectors, maybe it's
stakeholders outside of theorganization.
But how do we do that?
So we're not losing kind ofcore insights, but we're we're
speaking the same language withthe audience.
Mobeen Tahir (26:26):
I've been in situations where I've seen
slides having 10 charts on asingle slide.
Of course, each chartwarranting not just its own
slide, but its own discussion,because there's there's so much
work that has gone intoproducing this, and there's so
much substance in each chart.
(26:46):
So clearly, the person who hasproduced this has done a lot of
work and they're superintelligent in in preparing
this.
But what you end up doing isyou create pitfalls for yourself
if you if you dump all thatdata into a single slide.
So the key is to again boil itdown to well, what is the
(27:07):
talking point that you must thatyou want the audience to
remember?
Dr. Leah OH (27:12):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (27:13):
And if you ask ourselves the question that
question, it's it's easy to thenrealize that, well, the
conclusion that I want to drawfrom from these 10 charts is is
this one single sentence.
Well, okay, if that is thesingle sentence, what supporting
data, what supporting charts doyou need to make that point?
(27:36):
So the the the presentationmust always start with the
talking point.
Even if you've had a numbercrunching exercise, ultimately
that data is telling yousomething, right?
What is the message that youwant to convey?
Think about articulating thatmessage and then show whatever
(27:58):
supporting data is required toreinforce that message rather
than saying I've crunched allthis data, because sometimes we
fall into this trap, and I'veseen it in the finance industry.
People want to showcase alltheir work because that might
they think that that might givethem credibility that I've done
all this work.
(28:18):
Whereas the power is in theinsight.
If you have a powerful insightthat could only have been drawn
from doing all that work, thenpeople will see it.
And that will come through andthat will make an impression.
But it's a good exercise for usto even think about well, what
(28:39):
is the main message and startwith that message.
Often I I say that if you'redesigning a slide, your your
title of your slide shouldshould should convey the message
that that is that is your keymessage from the slide.
Start there.
So practically you're startingfrom a blank canvas.
You're not you're not saying,okay, I've got I've got these 10
(28:59):
spreadsheets and five uhprogramming models.
I need to find a way to bringall of that into a PowerPoint
presentation.
No.
You need to say, what is mymessage?
Okay, starting from a blankslate, this is this is a message
on a single slide.
And then what data supports it?
Maybe that's just one datapoint, and that might be enough.
(29:20):
Because the more data youshare, the more chance there is
that people will forget.
Dr. Leah OH (29:25):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And I think too, when we havethese, I fully understand the
allure of wanting to showcaseall that work, like you're
saying, because we feel likethat will get us the credit.
But you're right, also whenwe're showcasing all of this
work, I think so many timesaudience members get lost,
(29:46):
whether it's, you know, in ameeting in your organization or
a larger, they're not listeningto the speaker.
They're trying to decipher allof the data, all of the charts
that are put in front of them.
So I think.
Right, that's another way thatyou can inadvertently lose that
key insight, making thatconnection with the audience
(30:07):
because they're just trying tomake sense of all of this
information in front of them.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really, reallyhelpful in thinking about that.
And I'm wondering, so you kindof raise that point of maybe the
fear of not getting credit ifwe don't show all of this work.
And that's probably how theyhave seen others model it
(30:28):
before.
And that makes me think aboutpotential resistance.
So I know from work I do, itcan be really challenging for
someone to shift theircommunication style,
particularly leaders, becauseright, they've they've risen to
a certain station communicatingin one particular way.
And it can be really hard forthem to want to adapt other
(30:52):
ways.
But I'm wondering, what are,you know, what are some
approaches that you found thathave been helpful so that
leaders can motivate their teamsto embrace these more effective
audience-centered communicationstrategies rather than that
kind of traditional jargon-heavyapproach.
Mobeen Tahir (31:12):
So, Leah, one of my hobbies uh when I'm not doing
uh finance or public speaking,I also do music.
And my music teacher he tellsme whenever we're practicing a
new song, a challenging song tolearn and develop my vocals, he
tells me, first sing it exactlythe way the original singer has
(31:33):
performed the song.
Because in doing so, youdevelop the skills of that
person.
So the the original singer hashas shaped their voice in a
certain way.
If you copy them exactly, youtry to develop the same skills.
Once you do that, then you cantry to discover your own style
(31:54):
and do it in your own way andand and and be free in exploring
different things.
I recently did a workshop witha team, and I gave them this
example as a way.
Uh we were doing a workshop onusing our voice, and I have a
voice framework where it's aboutvarying the volume and and
varying the notes that you hitwith your volume and and
(32:18):
emphasizing certain words andpausing and and varying the
pace, all of those things.
And the the whole goal of theexercise was that let's try
different things.
Let's just try because we weare creatures of habit.
We we we become set in ourways, and we don't realize that
(32:40):
we've got a voice which can beused in different ways.
It's an instrument, it can beused in ways that we might not
have used before, but it's stillour voice.
And that's how I framed it thatlook, you you you can try doing
it in a different way, and indoing so, you develop a new
skill, but it's still yourinstrument, it's still your
(33:01):
voice.
And when we did that exercise,people came back and said to me
that wow, I I I didn't realize Icould I could sound like this.
And and I said to them thatI've never heard you speak so
well, because you were hittingnotes that I've not heard you
hit before.
You were pausing in a way thatI've not heard you pause before,
(33:24):
and just the impact of theircommunication changed so
radically by making such subtleshifts.
So, what I would say to anyonewho feels resistance is it's
it's a matter of habit, but it'snot a huge thing.
We think that becoming aconfident communicator is going
(33:46):
to be a huge undertaking.
Well, no, of course it's alifelong journey, but uh small
changes can make a hugedifference.
Just pausing can completelytransform the impact of your
delivery.
And you add one uh ingredientto to your repertoire, you see
(34:12):
the impact, you improve, you youlearn, you grow, you do
another, and that gives youmotivation.
Small changes, yeah, feedbackconstant growth.
So I would say that look, it'sit's it's not rocket science,
it's not that difficult.
Small changes can be made aslong as you are willing to try
and have some fun and and youare willing to grow and learn as
(34:34):
you go along.
Dr. Leah OH (34:35):
Yes, I could not agree more with you.
Because that's one thing Ireally love about this area is
you know, you don't, it's notexpensive tech that you need to
buy.
It's not starting from scratchor years of heavy work that you
put in before you see anythingin terms of outcomes.
(34:58):
He said it's start small.
Pick one one thing to focus on,to practice, maybe to struggle
with for a minute.
And like you said, when itbecomes part of your repertoire,
then we recognize okay, whatelse?
Where else can I improve?
Yeah, really, reallyinsightful.
So, Mobine, one thing when Iwas preparing for a
(35:20):
conversation, I thinkparticularly in finance, you
know, there are so many thingshappening in global economies,
whether and in domesticeconomies.
When we're thinking aboutcommunicating within finance and
with financial news, how do youcoach leaders to connect with
(35:42):
others in a way that fosterstransparency and trust so that
people feel comfortableinterpreting this messaging and
they're understanding kind ofthe why behind different
decisions and differentoutcomes?
Mobeen Tahir (35:58):
So many different facets of leadership we can uh
we can talk about here.
I think one I I just mentionedhere is people rally behind
leaders who they know care aboutthem.
And when leaders show that theycare about their people, people
(36:20):
will stand behind theirleaders.
And when they make the pointabout why they are doing
something, they will they willbelieve their leaders when when
they make that point.
And there are ways to show thatyou care, right?
Uh as an example, I I wasrecently looking for a social
(36:42):
media manager for my ownbusiness.
And I I put out an advert and Igot lots of proposals, right?
20 plus proposals, and I'm I'moverwhelmed at this point, lots
of good profiles.
Dr. Leah OH (36:59):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (36:59):
And there's only one proposal that stands out,
and it stands out for the simplereason that the person who has
made the proposal has not justsaid what they can offer me, but
they've asked questions to me.
Well, because yes, I put out aninitial advert with certain
(37:21):
requirements, but they went abit further.
They said, Well, what would youneed for this?
Well, what are you thinkingabout this?
What's what's your vision?
So they wanted to understandmore about my needs before
making a proposal of theirservices.
And this stood out because theywere looking to understand the
(37:43):
the more it showed that theycared about me and that they
they they were looking to knowmore about me rather than just
offer a generic service.
And and that that feeling stuckwith me to the point that I I
eventually went for that person.
Dr. Leah OH (38:01):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (38:02):
And the same thing can apply with with leaders,
right?
If if the if if people feelthat their leaders care about
them, then they will rallybehind the their leaders.
So if they want to explain whythey've made a certain decision,
that why will land much betterif they've earned the trust of
(38:27):
their people first.
And the way to earn their trustis to show that they care in
the first place.
Dr. Leah OH (38:33):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
The power of relationships,right?
And how it becomes reallycyclical and pays back in
dividends.
It's like a financial punthere.
Sorry.
It's like it's still prettyearly on a Monday morning for me
here.
I love a pun.
Thank you.
(38:54):
So I have two final questionsfor you, Mobine.
And this is how we end all ofour episodes of the
communicative leader.
And these two questions kind ofwork in tandem.
And and so I my question to youis you know, what is the
pragmatic leadership orcommunication tip?
It can be advice, it can be achallenge, a suggestion.
(39:16):
So the first part is what doyou want to offer or challenge
our title leaders, you know, ourmanagers, directors with?
And then the second part of thequestion is what is that advice
for employees of all ranks interms of that advice tip or
challenge related to leadershipor communication?
Mobeen Tahir (39:36):
Sure.
So to leaders, I would say ofcourse, care care about your
people, build that trust firstand empower your people.
I think for for leaders, thebest leaders that I've worked
with are those who trust theirpeople to do great things.
Dr. Leah OH (39:58):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (39:59):
And when you show that trust, I've I've felt
myself as an employee of anorganization, when a leader has
micromanaged me, how I'vereacted to that, versus when a
leader has trusted me to thriveand do great things, how I've
(40:19):
brought creativity and newideas.
Like if I'm told to dosomething, then that's the job
you you do it.
Whereas if I am trusted to do agreat job, then I will be
creative and I will find ways ofdoing that job much better.
And and and when you empoweryour people, now uh of course
(40:41):
roles vary, and in not everyrole requires requires the same
level of creativity.
Not every role will requireconstantly having to identify
new ways of doing things, butalmost every situation requires
you to empower your people to dogood work.
If you're a leader, you havepeople working for you, if you
(41:03):
empower them to do their best,then they will respond to that
trust.
And of course, how youcommunicate that will make all
the difference.
How you communicate that youbelieve in them and you are
empowering them to deliver theirbest, that will create the
trust and that will encouragethem to be their best version at
(41:25):
work.
For employees, of course, sincewe are talking about
communication, I'll I'll sayI'll go back to that point.
Small changes can make such abig difference.
Small changes.
We it is easy to look at aleader standing on stage and
admire them and think that thiscomes naturally to them.
(41:48):
It does not.
It does not.
I've I I was recently in asituation.
Now I I've I'm a uh I I dopublic speaking for my company
and I coach others, but I I wasin a situation where I was about
to take stage in an environmentwhere I had done that
(42:09):
presentation many times before.
So this was a familiar setting,familiar environment.
I know my presentation well.
I'm I'm excited.
There's almost a sense ofexcitement.
But uh as I was waiting to goon stage, my uh Apple Watch gave
me a notification saying thatyour heart rate has hit 120 BPM.
Dr. Leah OH (42:30):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (42:31):
And at that moment I realized that wow, okay, I I
you can be excited about goingon stage, and people might think
you're you're someone thatspeaking comes naturally to, but
we are all human and we allfeel those symptoms.
We feel you know, our palms uhsweat and our heart races and
(42:52):
our mouths become dry when whenwe take the stage.
It's fine to have thosefeelings.
You can still feel the feellike you are human and still
communicate very well as long asyou develop the tools, and
those tools are easy to develop.
How are you gonna use yourvoice better?
(43:13):
How can you use your bodylanguage better?
When you take the stage, what'swhat are the ways to have the
right presence in the rightsituation?
It's just those small shiftsthat can make a big difference
and get you to a point where youthink that, hey, that leader on
stage, they are really cool.
(43:34):
I would love to be like them.
Yeah and how do I ever getthere?
Well, you can get there.
Small changes will get youthere.
Dr. Leah OH (43:42):
Yeah, there's so many.
I really I want to raise up acouple things that you said.
I think the sentiment, I Iwrote it down, trust your
employees to do great things issuch a beautiful sentiment
because so many people say,trust your employees, period,
hard stop.
And to me, what that says istrust them to get to work on
(44:02):
time, trust them to kind of dowhat they're tasked with.
You're essentially justtrusting them in this kind of
traditional transactional senseof the word.
But I love yours and sayingtrust them to do great things
because, like you said, thatempowerment is built in and
recognizing that they have thespace to play, to be creative,
(44:27):
to innovate in ways that's notjust, oh great, you got yourself
here by nine.
Like, good, good, good on you.
So that that is amazing,Mobine.
And I I hope that is somethingthat others will start to,
they'll extend their sentence toinclude doing great things.
And I wanted to also echo, Ithink you're right, there's so
(44:48):
many folks who think, well, somepeople are just natural
leaders, they're these naturalcommunicators.
Of course, it's easy for themto get up there.
And maybe for a tiny, tiny,small percentage, but I'd say
for the vast majority, I mean,there are so many incredible
political leaders and popularfigures.
And they're like, I am veryshy, I'm very introverted, this
(45:11):
goes against my nature.
And they're doing it becausethere's a lot of practice and
muscle memory, recognizing thatthis boils down to
communication.
And when we look at it piece bypiece, we can kind of put that
puzzle together in a way thatfits for us.
Doesn't happen overnight, butit is possible.
Mobeen Tahir (45:32):
It's a journey, and uh the sooner you start the
journey and start enjoying thejourney, the better.
And uh, it's definitely afulfilling and rewarding journey
if if you get on it.
Dr. Leah OH (45:43):
Yes.
Well, Mobine, thank you forsharing your time with us, your
expertise, all of these reallythoughtful, pragmatic takeaways.
These are elements that I knowI'm gonna return to, and I know
that will be really helpful forour listeners.
Mobeen Tahir (45:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was it was a greatconversation and uh a great
opportunity to talkcommunication with you, Dr.
Leah.
Dr. Leah OH (46:06):
All right, my friends, that wraps up our
conversation today.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon.
I'm the communicative leader.
Welcome to another episode of The Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr.
Leah O, and today we have aguest whose expertise in
strategic leadershipcommunication is really
unparalleled.
We're joined by Mobine Tahir, adirector at Wisdom Tree who has
dedicated his career todemystifying complex financial
information for investors,executives, and the media.
(00:22):
So in this world, now driven bydata and AI, the ability to
articulate a clear message is nolonger a soft skill, my
friends.
This is a critical businessimperative.
Mobine's unique approach tocommunication bridges this gap
between technical expertise andhuman understanding, and it
empowers leaders to transformcomplex data into clear,
(00:45):
actionable dialogue.
Mobine's work aligns with the2023 McKinsey report, showing
that 67% of executives believeimproved communication has
positively impacted businessperformance.
You know I can get behind that.
So in today's episode, we'regoing to explore how Mobean
strategies can help you elevateyour corporate messaging, foster
(01:08):
clear decision making, and leadwith a truly strategic voice.
If you're ready to make yourcommunication a powerful asset
for your organization, thisepisode is packed with practical
insights for you.
Let's dive in and have somefun.
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader, hosted by
(01:29):
me, Dr.
Leah O'Millian My friends callme Dr.
O.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert.
On The Communicative Leader,we're working to make your work
life what you want it to be.
So, Mobine, welcome to theCommunicative Leader.
(01:50):
And I know you have thisincredible talent for making
complex finance informationunderstandable.
And I was hoping, as you know,to start our journey to give us
a nice foundation, if you couldhelp us understand how you went
from really working with a worldof data and numbers, which I
know you're still immersed inthere, but to also becoming this
(02:11):
passionate advocate forstrategic leadership
communication.
Mobeen Tahir (02:15):
Sure, Leah.
And thank you so much forhaving me on the show.
It's a pleasure to be here.
My own journey, I think, indiscovering my calling in life
was uh a process of elimination,I believe.
When when I was growing up, Isaw my sister studying for uh
medicine, and that's when Irealized that's something I
can't do.
(02:36):
So that's something Ieliminated from my uh my plans
there and then.
And then eventually, when Istudied finance and entered the
finance industry, now you youthink that you study a finance
degree at university, that's avery streamlined career path.
Well, no, you can go intofinance and have lots of
different careers within thatsame industry, lots of different
(02:59):
skill sets being employed.
And early on in my career, Iwas doing a lot of data-heavy
work, very quantity work, wherethere were a lot of spreadsheets
and models involved and numbercrunching involved.
And again, that process ofelimination, I realized maybe
that wasn't for me.
What I eventually discovered Ienjoy doing is articulating
(03:24):
meaning and synthesizing complexmessages into simpler messages
and communicating themeffectively.
And when I found a role thatallowed me to do that, that's
when I really started enjoyingit.
So in that journey where Irealized that that was my
calling, I also realized thatthere is a lack of focus,
(03:47):
particularly in the financeindustry.
I can speak for the financeindustry where I come from, but
I think it can be applied toother industries as well.
There's a lot of focus on doingthe work, whether it's
researching a particular topic,whether it's forming views on
any particular thing, there'svery little emphasis on how that
(04:09):
will eventually be communicatedand delivered.
And I'm a strong advocate thatdelivery should come first
because once you know theprinciples of good delivery that
gets you into that disciplineof organizing your material in
the right way that makes theright impression.
And that lack of focus made methink that not only do I want to
(04:35):
make sure my presentations havethose aspects of delivery.
So I focus about focus onlearning and developing those
things myself, but also in thecapacity of a public speaking
coach, which is a side hustlethat I started after working in
the finance industry, I look tobring that focus back to
(04:56):
business professionals andcorporates, that this is
something that can really be agame changer for you.
Dr. Leah OH (05:02):
Yeah, yeah, so important.
And of course, I'm I'm aleadership communication
scholar.
So this is music to my ears.
But you're even, I and I think,you know, you hit on the bill,
you're coming from finance, butwhatever these entrenched areas
of expertise, when you'redrinking the Kool-Aid, when that
(05:23):
is the jargon is what you'reusing and writing in day in and
day out, it becomes really hardto remember that storytelling
component to another audience.
So kudos to you for thinkingabout that and kind of starting
with that rather than getting tothe end point and being like,
they'll get it, right?
They're gonna get it.
This makes sense.
(05:43):
So great.
So let's think about kind ofthe the impact of being able to
communicate clearly.
So, you know, there's a recentMcKinsey report and it
highlights that improvedcommunication can positively
impact business performance foralmost 70% of executives.
Now, that is a reallycompelling statistic.
(06:05):
So I'm wondering from yourperspective, what are some of
the most striking examples ofhow poor communication, so we're
gonna flip it, especially inhigh-stakes environments, how
can that negatively affect anorganization's bottom line?
Mobeen Tahir (06:20):
I was at a conference where I was meant to
speak on stage.
And before my turn came, I wassitting in the audience.
Now I'm sitting in the audiencelistening to another speaker
speak, and I take a look at mywatch and realize that maybe the
speaker is coming to the end oftheir allocated time.
(06:41):
And at this point, I notice themoderator of the event, he
stands up from his uh seat, andthat's a sign normally to a
speaker on stage that you'reapproaching your time, and maybe
it's it's a good idea to wrapup.
And I see the moderator is nowstanding, and the speaker
(07:03):
continues to speak.
Okay, so now immediatelythere's a bit of tension uh
building up.
And a few minutes pass, and themoderator is now looking at his
watch, he starts to pace.
And to the point that peoplestart noticing the moderator
pacing in one part of the room,and the attention of the
audience has gone away from thespeaker on stage to the
(07:27):
moderator now pacing and beinguneasy in this situation.
So there's clearly an elephantin the room, all because the
speaker has not realized thatthey've gone over time.
And the reason why they hadgone over time was they were
delivering great insights,right?
They had a smart persondelivering great insights on
(07:49):
stage, but the mistake that theyhad made was to organize their
message in a way that theydidn't see that they were
allocated 20 minutes.
Well, how many messages can youbring to a 20-minute
presentation?
If you bring 37 slides and 50talking points, you will
(08:10):
inevitably cause the host of theorganization to have a slight
heart uh situation.
Right.
So this was indeed the casethere and then.
And when the speaker finished,of course, the focus of the
audience was drawn to the factthat the speaker had gone over
their time.
And instead of appreciating allthe great insights that the
(08:33):
speaker had delivered, they werenow thinking, okay, now the
rest the other speaker, how'sthe moderator going to adjust
the timing of the conference,what's going to happen next,
what an awkward situation.
Dr. Leah OH (08:45):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (08:46):
And suddenly it undermines the credibility of
the speaker on stage.
So simple things like when Iteach leaders that managing your
time is not just aboutrespecting the schedule for the
day, it's about ensuring thatyour credibility remains intact.
Such an important thing becausesmall mistakes that lack of
(09:09):
focus on this importantprinciple that you need to
organize your messages in in away that you hit your allocated
time can have all the impact onyour on your credibility and
your message and your goal inactually being there.
And and and it's so easy tomake those adjustments, just
(09:30):
having the right focus.
So, to your question, if if youdon't do that, you end up in
those sorts of situations whereeven if you have great messages,
you can undermine yourcredibility.
Dr. Leah OH (09:41):
Yeah, what a powerful example.
And certainly, I mean, I'msitting here feeling like
secondhand embarrassment.
I was not there.
But I think we've all been insituations like that where then
all of a sudden, like you said,we realize we're not even
listening to this expert who isprobably even earning an
honorarium, or at the veryleast, they're, you know, this
(10:03):
is a professional feather intheir cap.
We're not listening to them.
We're looking at thesenonverbals.
Like you said, we're feelingthat tension.
All of a sudden, we're justtuned into this drama that's
happening rather than theseinsights.
So thank you for raising thatup.
And I think too, so many peopleinadvertently look over the
(10:24):
power of holistic communication,which is not just what we're
saying verbally or with ourbody, but as you said,
respecting the situation and thecontext.
So being respectful of the timewe've been allocated, being
mindful that if we're notthinking about these things,
then we are really positioned todo some damage to our
(10:45):
credibility, like you said.
Yeah.
So, Bean, let's talk about thiscorporate communication gap.
And so, you know, one of theelements that you focus on is
bridging the corporatecommunication gap.
And I was hoping you coulddefine this for us.
What is this gap that you seein your work?
(11:06):
And what are some of theseearly warning signs when you
realize an organization isreally starting to break down in
communication between leaders,between its teams, and between
external stakeholders?
Mobeen Tahir (11:18):
Of course.
So any communication,particularly in corporate
communication, of course, thereis what the speaker needs to
communicate.
So that's your talking point.
There's the message that acompany needs to communicate.
Yes.
But there is what the audienceneeds.
And of course, if you'rerunning a business, ultimately
(11:40):
you're looking to solve aproblem of your customer.
The gap is in bridging thosetwo things.
So the the two things have tocome together.
Yes, you have a message toconvey, but if it doesn't solve
the problem, then the message ismeaningless.
There's no point.
(12:00):
And so often we see businessesfail to appreciate that they are
there to serve a customer.
And just uh we we see this allthe time.
For example, I in my personallife, I like to notice
situations where businesses failme as a customer, and that
(12:21):
that's a learning outcome forme.
Yeah.
I I recently was out for a walkwith my family, and we got some
ice cream, right?
We got ice cream, and we wepicked out an ice cream that I
had been having all my life.
So this was a known brand thatI've known since I was a child,
and there was an impression inmy mind about the quality that I
(12:44):
was expecting from this icecream because I've been having
this all my life.
I know the quality that I'mgoing to get.
And of course, when you'rehaving ice cream, you you know,
okay, it's a decision, right?
You you you think, okay, I'mI'm going to consume all those
calories, I'm gonna consume allthat sugar.
It better be worthwhile.
So I I of course open thewrapper and I dive into the ice
(13:08):
cream, and soon enough I realizethat this is not the same ice
cream I've been having all mylife.
The the the external layer ofchocolate that's meant to be on
the ice cream has thinned andit's now half the thickness that
it used to be.
There, there's a there's a coreinside it which has shrunk in
(13:28):
size.
So the quality has justcompletely vanished.
Yeah.
And in some parts of thebusiness, what we call it
shrinkflation.
So that they they either raisethe their prices or they reduce
the quality or the size of thepro of the of the product.
But in that moment, they'velost me as a customer forever.
Dr. Leah OH (13:49):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (13:50):
And what a shame.
Now, if as a business, thatthat company that's making the
ice cream, their goal is toserve the needs of the customer.
And if the customer isdisappointed, then you know
that's it.
Game over.
Game over for that business.
So the same idea applies to anycommunication that look, you
(14:12):
have to think about what is itthat the customer needs.
If I am in a situation where Iam talking to another person,
whether it's one person orstanding on stage addressing
your company or addressing aconference, ultimately those
people are there to getsomething of value from you.
And if the mindset starts fromyou recognizing that you are
(14:35):
there to serve the audience,then the communication is
impactful, it is meaningful, andthen your talking points will
actually land because they aredesigned in a way to serve.
Dr. Leah OH (14:49):
Yeah, exactly.
Because you're right.
I think so many timesindividuals and organizations
make the mistake of thinking,you know, talk or just posting
on a site is communication.
You're like, it's just morenoise, right?
Because it's not landing, likeyou're saying.
We're not developing ameaningful connection there.
(15:14):
Uh, we're just kind of addingmore noise to an already very
noisy life, right?
So thank you.
That's really, really helpful.
And I think too, it's animportant reminder that we see
this in all aspects of our life,you know, and that's one thing
I really love about studying andworking in communication, and I
(15:34):
imagine you do as well, is whenwe spend a little bit of time
and intention here, not onlydoes it help us professionally,
but we start to recognize thingsmaybe at home or families or
friends that maybe before wewould have interrupted or we
would not have, we would havebeen thinking about our response
instead of being fully engaged.
(15:54):
And it's just a nice reminderof the power of what you're
doing.
Mobeen Tahir (16:00):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Dr. Leah OH (16:02):
Yeah.
So let's think about somebarriers.
We're going to continue tothink about these barriers that
pop up when we try tocommunicate.
And particularly in the areathat you're working in, in
finance, I imagine in some techindustries as well.
We have so many subject matterexperts who are truly, you know,
at the forefront in theirfields, but they can struggle to
(16:25):
translate that expertise intoan accessible and compelling
narrative.
So I'm wondering, Obin, in yourwork, what are some of these,
what is the biggest barrierpreventing them from being able
to translate this?
And why do you think it's sohard to overcome?
Mobeen Tahir (16:43):
It's somewhat related to that previous point
where you're too much in yourown mind about communicating all
the stuff that you have in yourmind that's it's easy to forget
that ultimately you are thereat the service of someone else.
I've been in presentationswhere I've been in the audience
(17:03):
receiving a presentation, andI've felt absolutely stupid
because I have not because Ifind myself not understanding
what's being said.
And then I'm thinking, am I theonly one here who doesn't
understand the message that isbeing communicated?
But I'm sure there are otherswho are thinking the same thing.
(17:28):
And in in one instance, forexample, there was this
presentation that I waslistening to, and it was
particularly difficult tounderstand.
And as I asked myself thequestion, why is it that I'm
unable to understand thispresentation?
It boiled down to language.
And language, it's not that theperson was speaking English,
(17:50):
and and and I've and everyone inthis in the room spoke English.
The problem was not thelanguage in the sense that they
were speaking a differentlanguage, but even within
English, they were speaking thelanguage of their domain.
So of course they they theycame from a computer science
background, which meant that theterminology that they were
(18:13):
using were it included words andterms that people who didn't
come from a computer sciencebackground would find difficult
to understand.
Now, of course, if you arewithin a situation where
everyone in the room speaks thesame language, it's absolutely
fine.
Of course, you then you don'tneed to some sometimes acronyms
(18:38):
are perfectly well understood.
Dr. Leah OH (18:40):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (18:40):
Sometimes certain terminology is perfectly well
understood.
But sometimes there might bepeople from different domains
sitting in the same room, andyou have to make a case for
whatever you are trying toconvey in a language that is
understandable to everyone.
And so the simple rule is to atleast simplify it.
(19:02):
Um and and there's that idea,right?
If you can't explain it insimple terms, then you you don't
understand it well enoughyourself, right?
So that's the that's thestarting principle.
And I I like that principle,even in situations where you
think you're in in inside yourown domain, it's it's always a
(19:22):
good rule to simplify themessage as much as possible.
Yeah.
And convey it with brevity.
Brevity is another key one thatif if you can't convey it with
brevity, it means you haven'torganized your thoughts well
enough.
So I think the the first thingis to know well who is it that
you are speaking to.
Like, you know, people say thatif you if someone asks you what
(19:46):
do you do for a living, well,the answer should depend on who
asks you, right?
It if it's if it's going to beuh a a friend, you will respond
differently.
If you strike up a conversationwith a stranger, you will
respond differently.
If it's a person from a certainprofession, you might you might
(20:06):
respond in a way that makes itmore understandable to them.
You might create an analogythat works for them.
So ultimately, your responsewill depend on your audience,
and that's that's the key withany communication.
So the barrier to effectivecommunication, particularly in
corporates, is we often getcaught up using our own language
(20:29):
when we must realize we shouldat least make progress towards
using or adopting the languagethat is understandable to our
audience.
Dr. Leah OH (20:40):
Yes, yeah.
And that's and you're right.
I think even if everyone in theroom understands the same
acronyms and jargon, when yousimplify the message, when you,
you know, you take that extrastep, I think the goal is to
make that message repeatable sopeople all leave with the same
(21:00):
understanding too.
Because as we said, the amountof information, particularly for
folks in corporateenvironments, is is daunting,
right?
The number of decisions anddiscussions.
So even if you are speaking thesame language with others, like
you said, that to simplify itand keep it brief is just going
(21:22):
to be a better way forward,regardless, right?
So yeah, that's it always likewith communication and
organizations and telling themeven if you don't love this or
buy into this or see this as asoft skill, if you want to have
better decision making, if youwant to have more effective
relationships, that that simple,brief, compelling,
(21:44):
audience-focused communicationis what you need.
Yeah.
So let's dive more into yourapproach, Mobine.
And you talk about thestrategic voice.
And when you're working withleaders, this is a goal of the
work that you're doing withthem.
So he's hoping you could helpus to understand, you know, how
(22:04):
do you help to begin someone totransform their communication
from being merely informativeand kind of just pushing content
to being more influential?
Mobeen Tahir (22:17):
One framework that works very well in most
situations, particularly whenyou are making a pitch.
And a pitch could be selling aproduct or service, but it could
also be just selling an idea.
Ultimately, whenever we aremaking a presentation, we might
be selling an idea, trying tochange someone's mind about
(22:38):
something.
Dr. Leah OH (22:39):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (22:39):
Even if we are convincing a colleague about
whether we should pursue aparticular project or not.
As a leader, we might be tryingto get our teams motivated
about rallying behind aparticular endeavor, a business
project, and so forth.
So it is still pitching anidea.
So a good framework that thatworks very well in most
(23:02):
situations is the why what howframework.
And the why what how frameworkthat I teach to my clients is
well, always start with why.
And I really like uh SimonSinek's framework.
Start with why he wrote a bookon this as well.
So start with why because whyis is explaining the reason why
(23:23):
you should be interested in thistopic, why this matters.
Why am I here to talk to youabout this today?
Why are we having thisconversation?
So, why is the most importantframework setting question?
Then it's the what.
What is going into the details?
And of course, there is somedegree of detail that has to be
(23:45):
discussed and outlined in theconversation.
This is your opportunity.
Once the why has beenestablished, this is the
opportunity to go into the whatand say, well, these are the
details that we should beworking on.
And then the how comes in,which again goes back to well,
how can the audience benefit orhow can we move forward?
(24:06):
And how can we do somethingvaluable from whatever is being
pitched?
So how is essentially theforward-looking bit.
So how can how can you benefit?
If you're making a pitch to toin front of an audience,
ultimately you want to show themhow they can benefit from your
(24:27):
message.
And if you're a leader pitchingan idea to your business, you
have to convince them how canthe business, including them as
individuals and collectively asa business, well, how can we all
benefit from this idea?
So why, what, how?
And that that's a goodframework to communicate even
the most complex of ideas, butof course, adapt it to whatever
(24:50):
the situation is.
But that's a good startingpoint, particularly if you have
too many thoughts.
I've got these 50 things tosay.
Well, how do I organize it in acompelling message?
Normally, that framework is agood starting point.
Dr. Leah OH (25:07):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and what it strikes mewith this suggestion, and so
many that I hear in here is thesimplest suggestions are the
most powerful because they'rethe ones that we're going to
remember.
They're the ones that this why,what, how, whether you're
getting ready for an industrykeynote, or like you said,
you're going into a meeting withyour team, taking, you know,
(25:30):
even if it's two minutes all theway up to several hours to kind
of do a quick touch base meansthat you're going to be shaping
that information in a way thatis audience centered.
Mobeen Tahir (25:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (25:44):
Really helpful.
So talking about complexity,and especially in finance, I
imagine you work with a lot offolks who have very dense,
data-heavy reports andcomplicated information.
And so I'm wondering then, youknow, what do we do if we have
this type of content?
How do we convert it then intothis clear, engaging message
(26:08):
that's going to connect with thenon-technical audience?
So maybe it's a board ofdirectors, maybe it's
stakeholders outside of theorganization.
But how do we do that?
So we're not losing kind ofcore insights, but we're we're
speaking the same language withthe audience.
Mobeen Tahir (26:26):
I've been in situations where I've seen
slides having 10 charts on asingle slide.
Of course, each chartwarranting not just its own
slide, but its own discussion,because there's there's so much
work that has gone intoproducing this, and there's so
much substance in each chart.
(26:46):
So clearly, the person who hasproduced this has done a lot of
work and they're superintelligent in in preparing
this.
But what you end up doing isyou create pitfalls for yourself
if you if you dump all thatdata into a single slide.
So the key is to again boil itdown to well, what is the
(27:07):
talking point that you must thatyou want the audience to
remember?
Dr. Leah OH (27:12):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (27:13):
And if you ask ourselves the question that
question, it's it's easy to thenrealize that, well, the
conclusion that I want to drawfrom from these 10 charts is is
this one single sentence.
Well, okay, if that is thesingle sentence, what supporting
data, what supporting charts doyou need to make that point?
(27:36):
So the the the presentationmust always start with the
talking point.
Even if you've had a numbercrunching exercise, ultimately
that data is telling yousomething, right?
What is the message that youwant to convey?
Think about articulating thatmessage and then show whatever
(27:58):
supporting data is required toreinforce that message rather
than saying I've crunched allthis data, because sometimes we
fall into this trap, and I'veseen it in the finance industry.
People want to showcase alltheir work because that might
they think that that might givethem credibility that I've done
all this work.
(28:18):
Whereas the power is in theinsight.
If you have a powerful insightthat could only have been drawn
from doing all that work, thenpeople will see it.
And that will come through andthat will make an impression.
But it's a good exercise for usto even think about well, what
(28:39):
is the main message and startwith that message.
Often I I say that if you'redesigning a slide, your your
title of your slide shouldshould should convey the message
that that is that is your keymessage from the slide.
Start there.
So practically you're startingfrom a blank canvas.
You're not you're not saying,okay, I've got I've got these 10
(28:59):
spreadsheets and five uhprogramming models.
I need to find a way to bringall of that into a PowerPoint
presentation.
No.
You need to say, what is mymessage?
Okay, starting from a blankslate, this is this is a message
on a single slide.
And then what data supports it?
Maybe that's just one datapoint, and that might be enough.
(29:20):
Because the more data youshare, the more chance there is
that people will forget.
Dr. Leah OH (29:25):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And I think too, when we havethese, I fully understand the
allure of wanting to showcaseall that work, like you're
saying, because we feel likethat will get us the credit.
But you're right, also whenwe're showcasing all of this
work, I think so many timesaudience members get lost,
(29:46):
whether it's, you know, in ameeting in your organization or
a larger, they're not listeningto the speaker.
They're trying to decipher allof the data, all of the charts
that are put in front of them.
So I think.
Right, that's another way thatyou can inadvertently lose that
key insight, making thatconnection with the audience
(30:07):
because they're just trying tomake sense of all of this
information in front of them.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's really, reallyhelpful in thinking about that.
And I'm wondering, so you kindof raise that point of maybe the
fear of not getting credit ifwe don't show all of this work.
And that's probably how theyhave seen others model it
(30:28):
before.
And that makes me think aboutpotential resistance.
So I know from work I do, itcan be really challenging for
someone to shift theircommunication style,
particularly leaders, becauseright, they've they've risen to
a certain station communicatingin one particular way.
And it can be really hard forthem to want to adapt other
(30:52):
ways.
But I'm wondering, what are,you know, what are some
approaches that you found thathave been helpful so that
leaders can motivate their teamsto embrace these more effective
audience-centered communicationstrategies rather than that
kind of traditional jargon-heavyapproach.
Mobeen Tahir (31:12):
So, Leah, one of my hobbies uh when I'm not doing
uh finance or public speaking,I also do music.
And my music teacher he tellsme whenever we're practicing a
new song, a challenging song tolearn and develop my vocals, he
tells me, first sing it exactlythe way the original singer has
(31:33):
performed the song.
Because in doing so, youdevelop the skills of that
person.
So the the original singer hashas shaped their voice in a
certain way.
If you copy them exactly, youtry to develop the same skills.
Once you do that, then you cantry to discover your own style
(31:54):
and do it in your own way andand and and be free in exploring
different things.
I recently did a workshop witha team, and I gave them this
example as a way.
Uh we were doing a workshop onusing our voice, and I have a
voice framework where it's aboutvarying the volume and and
varying the notes that you hitwith your volume and and
(32:18):
emphasizing certain words andpausing and and varying the
pace, all of those things.
And the the whole goal of theexercise was that let's try
different things.
Let's just try because we weare creatures of habit.
We we we become set in ourways, and we don't realize that
(32:40):
we've got a voice which can beused in different ways.
It's an instrument, it can beused in ways that we might not
have used before, but it's stillour voice.
And that's how I framed it thatlook, you you you can try doing
it in a different way, and indoing so, you develop a new
skill, but it's still yourinstrument, it's still your
(33:01):
voice.
And when we did that exercise,people came back and said to me
that wow, I I I didn't realize Icould I could sound like this.
And and I said to them thatI've never heard you speak so
well, because you were hittingnotes that I've not heard you
hit before.
You were pausing in a way thatI've not heard you pause before,
(33:24):
and just the impact of theircommunication changed so
radically by making such subtleshifts.
So, what I would say to anyonewho feels resistance is it's
it's a matter of habit, but it'snot a huge thing.
We think that becoming aconfident communicator is going
(33:46):
to be a huge undertaking.
Well, no, of course it's alifelong journey, but uh small
changes can make a hugedifference.
Just pausing can completelytransform the impact of your
delivery.
And you add one uh ingredientto to your repertoire, you see
(34:12):
the impact, you improve, you youlearn, you grow, you do
another, and that gives youmotivation.
Small changes, yeah, feedbackconstant growth.
So I would say that look, it'sit's it's not rocket science,
it's not that difficult.
Small changes can be made aslong as you are willing to try
and have some fun and and youare willing to grow and learn as
(34:34):
you go along.
Dr. Leah OH (34:35):
Yes, I could not agree more with you.
Because that's one thing Ireally love about this area is
you know, you don't, it's notexpensive tech that you need to
buy.
It's not starting from scratchor years of heavy work that you
put in before you see anythingin terms of outcomes.
(34:58):
He said it's start small.
Pick one one thing to focus on,to practice, maybe to struggle
with for a minute.
And like you said, when itbecomes part of your repertoire,
then we recognize okay, whatelse?
Where else can I improve?
Yeah, really, reallyinsightful.
So, Mobine, one thing when Iwas preparing for a
(35:20):
conversation, I thinkparticularly in finance, you
know, there are so many thingshappening in global economies,
whether and in domesticeconomies.
When we're thinking aboutcommunicating within finance and
with financial news, how do youcoach leaders to connect with
(35:42):
others in a way that fosterstransparency and trust so that
people feel comfortableinterpreting this messaging and
they're understanding kind ofthe why behind different
decisions and differentoutcomes?
Mobeen Tahir (35:58):
So many different facets of leadership we can uh
we can talk about here.
I think one I I just mentionedhere is people rally behind
leaders who they know care aboutthem.
And when leaders show that theycare about their people, people
(36:20):
will stand behind theirleaders.
And when they make the pointabout why they are doing
something, they will they willbelieve their leaders when when
they make that point.
And there are ways to show thatyou care, right?
Uh as an example, I I wasrecently looking for a social
(36:42):
media manager for my ownbusiness.
And I I put out an advert and Igot lots of proposals, right?
20 plus proposals, and I'm I'moverwhelmed at this point, lots
of good profiles.
Dr. Leah OH (36:59):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (36:59):
And there's only one proposal that stands out,
and it stands out for the simplereason that the person who has
made the proposal has not justsaid what they can offer me, but
they've asked questions to me.
Well, because yes, I put out aninitial advert with certain
(37:21):
requirements, but they went abit further.
They said, Well, what would youneed for this?
Well, what are you thinkingabout this?
What's what's your vision?
So they wanted to understandmore about my needs before
making a proposal of theirservices.
And this stood out because theywere looking to understand the
(37:43):
the more it showed that theycared about me and that they
they they were looking to knowmore about me rather than just
offer a generic service.
And and that that feeling stuckwith me to the point that I I
eventually went for that person.
Dr. Leah OH (38:01):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (38:02):
And the same thing can apply with with leaders,
right?
If if the if if people feelthat their leaders care about
them, then they will rallybehind the their leaders.
So if they want to explain whythey've made a certain decision,
that why will land much betterif they've earned the trust of
(38:27):
their people first.
And the way to earn their trustis to show that they care in
the first place.
Dr. Leah OH (38:33):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
The power of relationships,right?
And how it becomes reallycyclical and pays back in
dividends.
It's like a financial punthere.
Sorry.
It's like it's still prettyearly on a Monday morning for me
here.
I love a pun.
Thank you.
(38:54):
So I have two final questionsfor you, Mobine.
And this is how we end all ofour episodes of the
communicative leader.
And these two questions kind ofwork in tandem.
And and so I my question to youis you know, what is the
pragmatic leadership orcommunication tip?
It can be advice, it can be achallenge, a suggestion.
(39:16):
So the first part is what doyou want to offer or challenge
our title leaders, you know, ourmanagers, directors with?
And then the second part of thequestion is what is that advice
for employees of all ranks interms of that advice tip or
challenge related to leadershipor communication?
Mobeen Tahir (39:36):
Sure.
So to leaders, I would say ofcourse, care care about your
people, build that trust firstand empower your people.
I think for for leaders, thebest leaders that I've worked
with are those who trust theirpeople to do great things.
Dr. Leah OH (39:58):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (39:59):
And when you show that trust, I've I've felt
myself as an employee of anorganization, when a leader has
micromanaged me, how I'vereacted to that, versus when a
leader has trusted me to thriveand do great things, how I've
(40:19):
brought creativity and newideas.
Like if I'm told to dosomething, then that's the job
you you do it.
Whereas if I am trusted to do agreat job, then I will be
creative and I will find ways ofdoing that job much better.
And and and when you empoweryour people, now uh of course
(40:41):
roles vary, and in not everyrole requires requires the same
level of creativity.
Not every role will requireconstantly having to identify
new ways of doing things, butalmost every situation requires
you to empower your people to dogood work.
If you're a leader, you havepeople working for you, if you
(41:03):
empower them to do their best,then they will respond to that
trust.
And of course, how youcommunicate that will make all
the difference.
How you communicate that youbelieve in them and you are
empowering them to deliver theirbest, that will create the
trust and that will encouragethem to be their best version at
(41:25):
work.
For employees, of course, sincewe are talking about
communication, I'll I'll sayI'll go back to that point.
Small changes can make such abig difference.
Small changes.
We it is easy to look at aleader standing on stage and
admire them and think that thiscomes naturally to them.
(41:48):
It does not.
It does not.
I've I I was recently in asituation.
Now I I've I'm a uh I I dopublic speaking for my company
and I coach others, but I I wasin a situation where I was about
to take stage in an environmentwhere I had done that
(42:09):
presentation many times before.
So this was a familiar setting,familiar environment.
I know my presentation well.
I'm I'm excited.
There's almost a sense ofexcitement.
But uh as I was waiting to goon stage, my uh Apple Watch gave
me a notification saying thatyour heart rate has hit 120 BPM.
Dr. Leah OH (42:30):
Yeah.
Mobeen Tahir (42:31):
And at that moment I realized that wow, okay, I I
you can be excited about goingon stage, and people might think
you're you're someone thatspeaking comes naturally to, but
we are all human and we allfeel those symptoms.
We feel you know, our palms uhsweat and our heart races and
(42:52):
our mouths become dry when whenwe take the stage.
It's fine to have thosefeelings.
You can still feel the feellike you are human and still
communicate very well as long asyou develop the tools, and
those tools are easy to develop.
How are you gonna use yourvoice better?
(43:13):
How can you use your bodylanguage better?
When you take the stage, what'swhat are the ways to have the
right presence in the rightsituation?
It's just those small shiftsthat can make a big difference
and get you to a point where youthink that, hey, that leader on
stage, they are really cool.
(43:34):
I would love to be like them.
Yeah and how do I ever getthere?
Well, you can get there.
Small changes will get youthere.
Dr. Leah OH (43:42):
Yeah, there's so many.
I really I want to raise up acouple things that you said.
I think the sentiment, I Iwrote it down, trust your
employees to do great things issuch a beautiful sentiment
because so many people say,trust your employees, period,
hard stop.
And to me, what that says istrust them to get to work on
(44:02):
time, trust them to kind of dowhat they're tasked with.
You're essentially justtrusting them in this kind of
traditional transactional senseof the word.
But I love yours and sayingtrust them to do great things
because, like you said, thatempowerment is built in and
recognizing that they have thespace to play, to be creative,
(44:27):
to innovate in ways that's notjust, oh great, you got yourself
here by nine.
Like, good, good, good on you.
So that that is amazing,Mobine.
And I I hope that is somethingthat others will start to,
they'll extend their sentence toinclude doing great things.
And I wanted to also echo, Ithink you're right, there's so
(44:48):
many folks who think, well, somepeople are just natural
leaders, they're these naturalcommunicators.
Of course, it's easy for themto get up there.
And maybe for a tiny, tiny,small percentage, but I'd say
for the vast majority, I mean,there are so many incredible
political leaders and popularfigures.
And they're like, I am veryshy, I'm very introverted, this
(45:11):
goes against my nature.
And they're doing it becausethere's a lot of practice and
muscle memory, recognizing thatthis boils down to
communication.
And when we look at it piece bypiece, we can kind of put that
puzzle together in a way thatfits for us.
Doesn't happen overnight, butit is possible.
Mobeen Tahir (45:32):
It's a journey, and uh the sooner you start the
journey and start enjoying thejourney, the better.
And uh, it's definitely afulfilling and rewarding journey
if if you get on it.
Dr. Leah OH (45:43):
Yes.
Well, Mobine, thank you forsharing your time with us, your
expertise, all of these reallythoughtful, pragmatic takeaways.
These are elements that I knowI'm gonna return to, and I know
that will be really helpful forour listeners.
Mobeen Tahir (45:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
It was it was a greatconversation and uh a great
opportunity to talkcommunication with you, Dr.
Leah.
Dr. Leah OH (46:06):
All right, my friends, that wraps up our
conversation today.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon.
I'm the communicative leader.
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