June 30, 2026 • 47 mins
Dr. Marcus Norris is a composer and conductor, who has orchestrate several songs for Beyoncé's 2023 Dubai return to live performance and served as Music Director for Tina Knowles-Lawson's 2022 Wearable Art Gala. Marcus founded South Side Symphony in 2020, which he describes as "like if Quincy Jones grew up on 90s R&B and Rap."
I had the privelege to conduct Marcus' opera Forsyth County is Flooding (with the Joy of Lake Lanier)after he won the 96 Hour Opera Project organized by the Atlanta Opera. It's a great conversation in which we spoke about Marcus' musical journey, new project with South Side Symphony, and entrepreneurship.
Learn more about Marcus and his music, visit www.MarcusNorris.com and www.SouthSideSymphony.org or @MarcusNorrison IG.
Watch the world premiere of Marcus' opera Forsyth County is Flooding on Atlanta Opera Streaming Site with a free account, production conducted by Chaowen Ting.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:04):
Hello, hello.
Welcome back to the ConductorsPodcast.
In today's episode, I'll bespeaking with Dr.
Marcus Norris, whom I had aprivilege to work with in 2022,
thanks to the Atlanta Opera's96-hour competition.
The 96-hour project is now apart of the NAL Festival, which
(00:28):
is a competition for a pair ofthe opera librettist and a
composer to get together andcreate a 10-minute mini opera.
The winning pair of thecompetition will also wing a
commission by the Atlantic Operato work on expanding this idea,
(00:50):
this 10-minute idea, into a fullone-act opera of an hour.
Marcus and Adama, his girlfriendback then, and now they are
newly red over the first yearcompetitions winners.
And because of this winningcommission, the Atlanta Opera
(01:11):
organized two opera workshopsfor them during the period of
writing this new opera.
And I was brought into thisproject and served as the
assistant conductor for both ofthe workshops and conducted the
world premiere of the finalproduction.
Marcus is a conductor, acomposer, a ranger himself, and
(01:35):
also founder of the South SideSymphony.
His idea of creating this newsymphony orchestra was what if
orchestra didn't exist and wereinvented today by a young black
man.
He describes the sound as likeif Quincy Jones grew up 90s RB
(01:55):
and rap.
This is why that this orchestraplays a lot of really cool and
exciting concert.
They are cross-or-learninggenres, styles, and musical
ideas, and they are alwaysreally exciting to attend.
In this episode, which wasrecorded in early June, Marcus
(02:17):
talks about the concert that wascoming up called Anime Jo Gen,
which will be repeated later inthis year.
If you're ever in a city wherethe anime jujin is offered, you
don't want to miss that.
Marcus is just a wonderful humanbeing, someone that I admire a
(02:38):
lot.
And I hope you will enjoy thisepisode and get to know him a
little more.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
It has, it's been too long.
SPEAKER_03 (02:55):
Yeah, I know.
So Marcus and I met from the theproject uh with the Atlanta
Opera, the Forsyth County.
I think it was the first newopera that they commissioned.
Maybe we could start from there.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about that project?
Whatever you want to share withus.
I know it's been a journeyitself from beginning to the
(03:18):
end.
SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
Yeah, no, I mean it was it was really cool.
And I was really happy that wemet and I I loved working with
you and like your season.
You did great.
Uh yeah, so that was a reallyfun one.
I did it with my now my nowwife.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Congratulations.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
Thank you, as of uh, you know, six months ago or so.
So there was the first year theyannounced the competition, and I
just completely misunderstoodthe competition.
You know, what is it?
96 hour opera project.
So I thought, like, okay, youapply and then you go there and
you write this opera in 96hours.
But that's what I thought aswell.
(03:59):
You thought, okay, okay, itwasn't just I saw the same.
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
I saw the same.
I thought they fly you in andthen they give you something,
and then you just don't sleepfor 96 hours.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
What was actually supposed to happen is you were
supposed to have written italready, and then you put it
together in the 96 hours, whichmakes more sense.
Um, but so I got there and Ihadn't written the thing, and I
had to hurry up and do it.
And uh, you know, we ended upstill winning, which was which
was cool.
And we had COVID also during thecompetition, so we had to just
(04:33):
stay in our hotel rooms.
We had just came from likeinternational flights.
It was during that time, it wasit was a lot going on, but we
ended up winning that and thenuh decided to do a different
story for our actual commission.
And I I'm really proud of it.
I I think it came out reallycool.
(04:53):
Um there's video recording foranyone watching this.
You can you can access itthrough the Atlanta Opera's
website, however they have itset up at this time.
But uh, but yeah, it was it wasit was really cool.
Uh met a lot of cool people.
We I had been wanting to do morestuff in Atlanta and you know,
meet more musicians and andpeople working down there and
music, and uh it, you know, itbrought us together, so that's
(05:16):
cool.
SPEAKER_03 (05:17):
Yes, that's that's what fantastic.
But I I was gonna ask because Ialways thought the winning piece
was was the beginning of theopera that we premiered, but it
was not.
Did you end up using any of thewinning parts at all?
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
No, I think that maybe is how they do it now, and
I think that's like the plan,but it wasn't like specifically
codified that way when we did itthe first time, but I think
that's how it works now.
And our version for the winningcompetition thing was like it
just was its own thing, like itwas uh short and funny and and
(05:51):
had a little bit of you knowheart and substance to it, but
it wasn't a like trying to makethat into like an hour or 90
minutes just felt kind of alittle bit forced for the topic
that we had and for ourcompetition.
We kind of felt like if we wereto try to take this like good
thing that's like funny andpoignant, and like if if you
(06:13):
take a joke and then you say thesame joke over and over and over
again, eventually it's not veryfunny, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (06:18):
Um But that's a lot of the American TV shows that I
it is, it is, and it's like,hey, this is hey, I've heard
this joke, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
And so we we we talked with them about it, and
they they were uh kind enough tolet us do something different,
and they trusted us, which whichwas cool um to do something
different for for the uh for thelonger piece.
But I think now it might bebaked into the rules or uh or
the flow is that it's gotta bethe same thing for future people
(06:49):
so that they can be, and thatwould have been fine if we would
have been thinking about it thatway when we started.
But um, but yeah, we were ableto to make something cool.
SPEAKER_03 (06:58):
I don't know about rules.
I know I know the ones that I'vebeen working on, they were they
were similar stories, but it'snot necessarily the same musical
ideas.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Like the one that's that's where premiering again,
um not again, but premieringthis weekend.
Um, they've been debating theirfelt the winning piece might
have been the middle of theopera or the end of the opera,
and then I heard it was theconcept, but not the actual
materials that's being used.
So Gotcha.
Yeah, but I think like as yousay, like write trying to write
(07:32):
something that's 10-15 minutesto win a competition is totally
different from writing like anan one act thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
Um have you been writing more operas since or I I
want to write more opera and youknow, and Dama and I are
talking, we were actuallytalking this morning about like
a musical, maybe.
Um, you know, I I love it.
It's just one of those thingswhere it's like I don't know,
you you need a little bit morelike I can put on a concert by
(08:04):
myself, like or like I canproduce a concert, but like
trying to self-produce an opera,it's like you kind of need the
you need the right backing, andyou know what I mean.
Um, but I'm hopeful and I uh youknow I look forward to doing it
again.
SPEAKER_03 (08:20):
You never know.
You never know.
You have good stories always,and good story told and that
persists, you know, and I I I'lldo it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
I I am starting to think about what is gonna be my
winter project when I'm justlike locked up for the holidays
in my house or whatever in thesnow.
It's like uh maybe it starts aslike a song cycle or or
something like that that has anarrative to it and see where it
goes.
And because I can stage aworkshop and stuff like that,
but anyway, I got ideas brewing.
SPEAKER_03 (08:46):
Yes, I trust you, you can write a song cycle in
like two nights.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
I'm getting too old now, though.
Like I'm slowing down, butstill, still.
SPEAKER_02 (08:59):
I was still talking about how you just wrote two
songs overnight and orchestrateda whole thing, and it was
awesome to play.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
So yeah, thinking about that yesterday, like uh me
and Adama were talking aboutsome of this stuff, and I was
just like, I remember being itwas about the workshops because
I remember telling her I waslike, I like I value those, and
about how you can have thisperfect idea, but then you put
it in front of somebody, and youimmediately realize, oh, it
needs this or that, and howuseful that process is.
(09:27):
So I was saying, like, if we ifwe do this musical or whatever,
it's like we need we can dothese workshops ourselves.
But I I was just thinking aboutthat because I remember we did
like one of the first coupleworkshops, and I got there, and
like we ran through it, and Iwas like, it needs a hit at the
end, it needs just it needs abig song, and then they were
like, Oh, yeah, so you'll go andyou'll work on that.
And I just came back with it thenext day.
(09:49):
Just like, nope, here it is.
SPEAKER_02 (09:52):
You know what?
SPEAKER_03 (09:53):
So, with since what happened with you now, we're
feeling in the schedule thatthere is one day for the
composer to write new things, soyou don't have to do it
overnight, but no one had takenadvantage of that since they're
like no, that's too much.
I miss Marcus.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
Maybe that means they planned better on the front
end, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (10:18):
Like everyone works differently.
But tell us about the theconcert.
You have a concert this weekendand next weekend that's with
your orchestra, right?
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
Tell us about it.
Next week is the big one.
It's making our performing artscenter debut at the Seggerstrom
concert hall down here.
It's like huge, huge hall.
It's beautiful.
We've been playing like theyhave like these outdoor plazas
or the small theater.
We've been like collaboratingwith the Segurstrom Center for
(10:48):
this would be our fifth year, Ithink.
Um, but this is the first timewe're like in the concert hall.
We got like a 20-piece group.
Uh, we're calling it the animejuke jam.
And it's just all about likethis cultural exchange between
uh Japan and anime and likeblack American music.
(11:09):
Like it kind of started becauseI, you know, I I grew up loving
anime, and I just startedthinking about it with my adult
brain.
Like, why is all of this likejazz and hip hop and like soul
and RB?
Like, it's amazing, it's socool.
I was just curious about thewhy, and it's so good.
(11:30):
And then I just I just did deepdive into the history and just
found amazing stories.
I commissioned new animation.
Um, it's like part concert, partlike documentary video essays
with like animation, liketalking about like the stories
behind some of these exchangesthat people aren't gonna know
yet.
I just went on this deep diveand had a lot of fun with it.
(11:52):
Um, all of that, plus the20-piece soul fusion orchestra
and funk and horns andsaxophones and drums.
I'm also doing, I brought on um,I found somebody who plays
shameson and but like is alsowilling to play jazz.
So we're gonna put like shamisenand soul and hip-hop, and I it's
(12:14):
gonna be crazy.
Um, and people are like reallyexcited about it in a way that
like is is energizing me.
Um, so yeah, that's the big one.
That's gonna be next weekend.
Um and then this weekend we'regonna take a smaller group.
Uh so the World Cup is I live inInglewood, and like the World
(12:34):
Cup is coming here, and the cityof Inglewood has decided to do
something called the Wood Cup.
So it's like that earlier thatday, before people go to that,
they can come to like this bigstreet block party where they
block off a whole bunch ofstreets and food and vendors and
everything.
(12:54):
I'm gonna bring like a group oflike maybe seven, eight people
and uh and musicians, and we'regonna play some fun block party
stuff.
I love stuff like that becauselike when I was a kid, those are
like my first type ofperformances.
I had this mentor, his name wasBenny Poole, and he was like
famous in the boogie-woogiestyle jazz and all these things,
(13:16):
like old school stuff.
And I was doing like rap and andand all that type of stuff at
that hip-hop.
But he would just take us tothese block parties, and then he
would just be like, he wouldjust set up like a microphone in
front of people who are justlike, you know, at the tables
playing spades and dominoes andeverything and just hanging out,
and he would just set us up themicrophone, the speakers, and
then we'd be like, Okay, nowmake them move.
(13:37):
And you'd be like, What?
Like, yep, no, this is it, thisis all you get, now do it.
And we were terrible at it, butit's like it's such a good, a
good test and kind of the litmustest for me now.
Anyway, so I always love thosethose style of performances, and
any opportunity I get to dostuff like that is always fun.
(13:57):
Um, but yeah, so it's a lot of alot of juggling, but all all fun
stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (14:03):
I know whenever you wherever you are, it's go always
going to be a lot of fun.
That I can promise.
But I know I I've alwayswondered because it I thought
you started as you know, likeyou say, a rap and RB as
songwriter, but it seems forsome people that there's a
bridge or a gap between like anorchestra or like an orchestra,
(14:25):
what people imagine that is.
But how did you can make thedots connected?
SPEAKER_02 (14:31):
Like what happened that you're like, oh, I want an
orchestra to do this, not a jazzband, not to get banned.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Yeah, I mean, for me, genre has always felt like
an artificial construct, likelike they don't always feel so
separate to me.
Um, I like different styles ofmusic for different reasons and
different elements of it.
But I think uh for me, when Iwas in college, I was going for
my associate's degree at acommunity college uh in Michigan
(15:01):
around Detroit um for musicrecording technology.
But while I was there, they hadme take like some basic music
theory and and also some musichistory, and that's when I
started to get interest.
I was like, wow, this guy, thisguy Bach is going crazy.
You know, I've never never heardsomebody uh write music or uh
approach the way he approachesit, like with the counterpoint,
(15:22):
and then you go to Beethoven andMozart, and then Ravel and
Debusy, and you know, I likegood music, but I never stopped
liking the stuff that I grew upon, and so just like okay, it
just all gets added to mylanguage, and now I just always
try to write from my language,which was made up of you know,
(15:42):
you're a synthesis of all themusic that you listen to.
Um, but yeah, I've always feltthat genre, while I do
understand the differences instyles and stuff, I always felt
like it's not as rigid as a lotof times people think it is.
SPEAKER_03 (15:59):
So, how many instruments you play?
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
I play piano and like not great.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Same here.
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
I write at piano.
Like when I was in undergrad, Iwas you know playing piano as
part of my scholarship, but likeI was also I was going to school
for composing at that time, likemy bachelor's, and I was working
really, really hard at piano tobe just okay.
unknown (16:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
And I was good with it.
Like, I'm like, you're you'recutting it, you're solid, you're
okay.
But it's like I was looking atpeople who I now will like, you
know, to play on my stuff.
And I'm like, when that personwas 15 years old, they were
better than I will ever be.
But I was like, I'm pretty goodat this composing, and oh, you
(16:53):
know, I was like, I I'm actuallypretty good at this.
So I just had like a arealistic, pragmatic moment of
like, you know, you're workingreally hard to be okay at this,
but you're pretty good at thisother thing.
I bet if you really focused onthis, you could be, you know,
the man at that.
And and so I just, you know, Ihad to I had to go with my
(17:15):
strengths.
SPEAKER_03 (17:17):
But I have a question because I am still
amazed at how well you write fordifferent instruments.
When we worked together, you hadthis bigger, small ensemble that
we had.
We had string, we had brass, wehad woodwinds, we had piano.
But everything you wrote wasreally natural and fit that
(17:40):
instrument.
From where did you that learnthat skill?
From from your own group, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
Tons and tons of score study, and but more, but
also just like I I approachorchestration like what do I
like about this instrument or asinger or whatever?
What do I like about it?
And then how do I give them theopportunity to showcase that?
Like, is how I think about it.
(18:09):
You know, obviously, you know, Ihave a PhD in composition, so
I've been around a ton ofcomposer students in my life,
and it's like what I see a lotof times beginners do is like I
have this idea, I'm putting iton this instrument, and I don't
care how they feel about it.
And it's like, and it's like Ithat, you know, that might not
(18:32):
be the most conducive to gettinga good sound, you know?
And rather than than purelythat, I try to approach it from
like again, like what do theseinstruments do?
What is idiomatic to them?
What's the version of my ideawhere I can give them the best
opportunities to show that?
(18:53):
And it doesn't mean I don't takerisks or like I never get
anything, you know, I never pushthem a little too far or get it
wrong.
But when I do, I'm like, it'scalculated, like it's for a
specific reason.
Um, you know, I want theinstrument to sound strained, so
I'm making it go high, orwhatever, whatever it is, you
(19:14):
know what I mean?
It's it's like uh I think that'sthat's the main thing.
It's like just starting from aplace of like loving, loving
those instruments, and like justwant to give that musician.
And then also I always try togive every musician like an
opportunity to be like I thinkabout them as people, and I'm
always like, hey, I want themalways to have like a part where
(19:35):
it's like, hey, my part's comingup in that second movie.
Hey, make sure you listen.
Like if their family is in thecrowd, you know.
Yeah, I always try to give themthat.
SPEAKER_03 (19:44):
I can see that people starting to write for
instruments.
Sometimes they rely too much onthe MIDI playback.
So, oh, that sounds good.
But like I like that song.
I think that's playable, or theyplay piano, so they they don't
understand translating somethingfrom the piano to a different
instrument, it's totallydifferent.
The fingering, the the poem waydifferent.
(20:07):
Yeah, a lot of people forgetabout those, and I was like,
okay, this this sounds verystrange.
Um, when it's yeah, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
MIDI is like it tricks so many people, and not
even just beginners.
Like, MIDI tricks a lot ofpeople.
Um, it's a very useful tool.
Like, I don't want to say it hasnothing to do with what a real
orchestra is, but it has littleto do.
(20:36):
Um but yeah, the MIDI is likeit's a it's a double-edged
sword.
It's like it's so useful, um,especially if you're
collaborating with people andyou need to give them a sense of
what you got going on, but butyeah, it like it will lie to you
so much.
SPEAKER_03 (20:54):
Yes.
Oh my god.
I know we can talk like for daysabout that.
For sure.
Um, but I felt that's um I Ithink I watched some of the the
reels that you recorded forsocial media that you're talking
about, like letting yourmusicians shy.
And I certainly felt that.
And I'm pretty sure you do thatwith your orchestra as well.
(21:17):
So for the orchestra and foryour ensemble, do you write most
of the pieces that they areperforming?
I know you commission animatorsand you bring in people in.
How does that work?
SPEAKER_00 (21:29):
Yeah, so I think about us like in the lineage of
like a Duke Ellington and hisorchestra, um, or Cab Callaway
and his orchestra, Quincy andhis.
So yeah, I'm writing a lot ofthe music, but like we do
perform a lot of like otherpeople's tunes, but I usually do
the orchestrations for them aswell.
Um, and that's another thingthat helps me of just like I get
(21:52):
a lot of reps in.
You know what I mean?
So it's like I I write stuff.
Ah, that didn't quite work.
In the same way, that's I thinkthat helps with like um that
kind of sets the tone for theprocess of like how you're
talking about I was stillworking on the thing as we're
workshopping it because I feellike that ability to iterate
(22:14):
quickly.
And that's how Duke Ellingtongot so good.
That's how Bach got so good.
He was like writing music.
Bach was writing for churchevery week, Duke was writing for
the club every week, and so hewould show up and be like, oh,
this this worked.
That part didn't.
Let's oh, people loved it whenwe did this and that.
So let's let's do that in thenext piece.
(22:35):
Um, but yeah, that's usually onthe music, uh for the most part.
I think I'm like orchestratingand and writing most of it.
Um I love it.
SPEAKER_03 (22:47):
Have you ever counted like an on average how
many places are you workingtogether on at the same time, or
like every night's how many youcan get?
SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
It's too many.
Like I I literally don't know.
Like it's gotta be hundreds atthis point.
Um uh like over the years.
It's so much music.
I I'm getting smarter about itnow because I'm just getting
older and like I can't do allnighters anymore.
But I I was thinking about thatrecently because like the the
one we got coming up, the animejuke jam, is the first one where
(23:20):
I'm like, okay, I want to makelike a production.
Like this is like the way uhlike a musical or an opera is
where it's like, okay, well,let's pull up that boom.
We can put the anime juke jam.
Okay, they want us to do it inAtlanta.
Here's the anime juke jam,here's all the music.
Because when I first startedSouthside Symphony, it was like,
okay, cool, we're gonna do anhour concert.
Write an hour of music.
(23:42):
I'm not I'm like laughing aboutit, but that's literally what it
was.
Like the next concert we woulddo would just be like, here's
another hour of music.
And you can do that when you'relike 20 something, but now when
I have like other gigs andcommissions and and I just I
don't have that much energyanymore, um, I gotta get
smarter.
So it's like it's always thereall there is always new music on
(24:06):
our bigger concerts, like uh forthis anime juke jam one, it's
about like we did a earlier umversion of the concert two years
ago, like a prototype that thisis an expanded version of, and
maybe like half of the music isfrom that version and half of it
is new.
Um but yeah, I I I literallydon't know how much music is but
(24:30):
I actually I actually try not tothink about it.
Like, and and there's no likenot philosophical reason.
I just like I don't know, it'slike if uh if you ever seen like
a kid fall and like they don'tcry until you react as if they
should be hurt.
And I don't know.
(24:50):
As an analogy, that's how Ithink about it.
It's like if I don't measure howmuch because if I stop and think
about how much it is, then I'llprobably be like, I'll probably
start getting nervous and belike, there's no way you can do
all that or this and this.
So I try to just like I try tojust like wake up and like, all
right, we're working.
I'm in a busy season right now,and it's it's a lot of that.
It's just like, hey, don't I cansit here and stress about how
(25:12):
much I need to get done, or Icould just start chipping away.
SPEAKER_03 (25:17):
Love that, love the energy.
But you are wearing so many hatsat the same time as they say no,
um, no, it's is it more like aproducer?
Because before maybe you werejust thinking, I know we all
start this way.
I want us to conduct something,I want someone to play my music.
I just got a group, and then asit grows, there's the producing,
(25:38):
there's personnel management,there is this librarian part,
there's this promotion part,there's this fundraising part,
there's this site, contracting,negotiating.
There are so many things.
Um, what you love about themost?
SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
Which part do I love the most?
SPEAKER_03 (25:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
Oh, the music by far.
The performance.
Like I'm a performer.
Um, the people in the room is isthe fun part.
I love the musicians and thecommunity as well.
That means a lot.
Um, but yeah, I I love theperforming and the actual music.
How I manage all of those thingsis I think of them as three
(26:21):
different jobs, and that reallyhelps me in like three different
Marcuses.
In in the future, hopefully,like I have enough funds and
infrastructure where like I canjust do that music side, and I
can hire people to be the othertwo Marcuses.
But but like um, I I read thisbook some years back that's
(26:41):
really helpful.
I think I want to revisit again,but uh it's called the E Myth
Revisited.
It's basically theentrepreneurial myth.
Basically, it's like there arethree jobs for every like
founder.
Um, there is a technician,that's the person that actually
does the thing, whatever thething is.
In my case, music, you know, ourcase music.
(27:02):
So it's like the tech.
I'm I think at my in my heart,I'm the technician.
I'm the guy that just I justlike doing the thing.
I would do the thing if I wasn'tpaid to do the thing.
And then there is the manager,and that's the person who like
makes sure everybody gets theirmusic on time and make sure
everybody's paid on time and gottheir W9s in and is working with
(27:25):
the accountant, and that's alllike that's all like emailing
and everybody knows where topark and just all of those
things that you don't thinkabout before you get into this
gig.
That's the manager, and thenthere's the entrepreneur, and
that's the person who is liketrying to see opportunities
before they're opportunities andthinking ahead and like getting
creative and has all these bigideas.
(27:47):
So it helps me to kind of likesplit them into like which
version do I need to be today?
And it's like, okay, today Ineed to be the guy that is like
thinking about all this stuff,but then like, all right, well,
yesterday, entrepreneur put usin this situation where we got
these two constructs up.
So today I need to be tech.
I'm not answering no emailtechnician, I'm not answering
(28:07):
any emails, I'm just writing thenotes because we got to get them
parts in time, and you know whatI mean.
So it's I don't know, it's notlike a tangible thing or like an
app or a hack, but for whateverreason, like splitting it up,
thinking about it in my head asthree jobs, even if I have the
same amount of work, really ishelpful for me.
SPEAKER_03 (28:27):
Yeah, a lot of people start like a passion
project, but a lot of peoplestop because after a project or
two, there are just so manythings that drinks their
energies, or they lose theexcitement and passion, but
you've been doing it for solong, and each project's bigger
and more exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
I yeah, I would definitely say if anybody is
feeling like that, you shouldread the book The E-Myth
Revisited by Michael Gerber.
Uh obviously, this is notsponsored or anything.
I'm just a fan of the book.
It's just like um, but he talksabout that exact situation, and
he's the person that made merealize okay, I think in the
book he talks about uh like abaker or a bakery.
(29:08):
And he was like, he basicallysays he's like, yeah, it's like
the entrepreneurial myth is likeum, we think like, oh, you're an
amazing, you're amazing atmaking cookies.
You love to make cookies, and soyou start this business, but you
don't know anything about likesourcing flour or like renting
out a place to do this, or themarket forces affecting the
(29:31):
baking industry.
And it's not to discourageanybody from doing those, but
it's just to make you aware.
It does really good at makingyou aware of all of these things
in these different jobs, andthen after that goes on to talk
about like how um okay, you'reat the point where you do need
help.
How do you do that?
Like what for for the person whois like scared to get help
(29:54):
because like you're the onlyperson that knows your system
and you're the only you care somuch about these details, and or
maybe you've tried to get anassistant in the past and you
couldn't.
So um, yeah, if you're if you'reone of those people, you know,
like like many of us, I wouldhighly recommend that book.
It's one that I've like giftedto some of my friends who I knew
were in that situation as well.
(30:15):
And I think I'm about overduefor a reread myself.
SPEAKER_03 (30:19):
Yeah, but that's not like something I I probably
should agree to.
I'm going to find it.
Um, but that's just gear alittle bit.
I know I sort of remember youstarted playing music at a young
age, right?
You start singing or playingfilming something at the
keyboard.
SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
I was uh making beats as a kid.
Yeah, I I when my uncles at myuh my grandmother's house had
like this, you know, uh FruityLoops at the time.
I think they've re rebranded toFL Studio now to try to sound
more professional.
But yeah, I was like I startedmaking beats when I was really
(30:59):
young, like 13, I think.
SPEAKER_03 (31:01):
Mm-hmm.
And that's how that your musicjourney started.
How did you decide you want togo somewhere and major in
composition?
You said you did it forundergrad.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yeah, because so I had gotten a uh my senior year,
I had gotten a two-yearscholarship to uh it was called
the Michigan Promise, and it waslike to any community college in
the state.
And so I wanted to go for likesome type of recording or
something music.
So because I was allself-taught, and you know, we
(31:32):
didn't have YouTube and wedidn't have all these things
that people have now.
And so I wanted to get, I wantedto be able to like make my music
sound better through likeproducing and engineering on the
on that side.
So I found a music recordingtechnology.
Um, and so I went for my twoyears there at it's called
Schoolcraft College aroundDetroit.
And uh, I think I mentionedearlier, it's like while I was
(31:54):
there getting this degree inmusic recording technology, they
had me take uh basic materialsin music theory, they had me
take music history, and so thenI was gonna go to Columbia,
Chicago for audio production,like continuing on my music
recording technology.
But I just had to be honest withmyself at that last minute.
I was like, I think I like thiscomposition stuff because after
(32:14):
I took that basic materials inmusic theory, I went on to take
like a bunch of independentstudies.
I had they had a really goodteacher there at the time, and I
went on to take like like musictheory one, two, three, four,
jazz theory, all of these thingsas independent studies.
Um and I just loved it.
So then by the time it was forme to transfer at the last
(32:36):
minute, I decided I was like,you know what?
If I'm being honest with myself,I think I like I think I want to
do this composition thinginstead.
And and so I switched at thelast minute.
SPEAKER_03 (32:46):
That's so so you say like being honest with yourself,
but that's not an easy thing todo.
Not and then the other thingthat I noticed about you through
our time working together isthat you were not just laid
back, but you really trustedevery single person that was in
(33:07):
the room.
Like we know the the piece thatyou wrote was your baby, but you
just trusted us.
Like you trusted me inrehearsals.
We we, of course, we hadquestions, we came to you for
clarification.
Sometimes I talk to you aboutsuggestions.
I was really nervous, likereally, really nervous.
I think I I Googled you beforewe first I read like 10
(33:30):
different websites about you andI was like, okay, this person
has a PhD in composition.
He also conducts, so youprobably feel like I would be
coming in not knowing shit aboutthe content.
But that was not easy for a lotof the composers.
Was that something that you hadto learn?
(33:51):
Or did you just naturally trustit?
SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
Sure.
I want to give an honest answer.
I think I just my philosophy isget people you can trust and
then trust them.
Like I think a lot of people areum, I don't know, like very
controlling.
I've heard Stravinsky was likethat.
Like I've heard stories thatStravinsky was very like if I
wrote uh a double dotted eighth,it better be a double dotted
(34:19):
eighth and not like an eighthtie to say, you know what I
mean?
Like it was just like reallylike um I don't know.
I just I think like people aresmart and creative, and like I
don't know everything.
I think I think there's ahumility in there of like, hey,
you know, I always tell uh whenespecially when I'm starting, I
(34:42):
would tell the musicians reallyexplicitly, like, you know, say
I'm writing something forsaxophone, I'm like, hey, you
know more about that saxophonethan I'm gonna know by the time
I'm on my deathbed.
You know, and so so like I wouldlove, and if you're nice to
people, you can learn from them,you know, like uh not that
people don't just take gigs, butlike even if it's a gig, like
(35:05):
musicians they're doing makingmusic because they like it and
they want it to sound good andthey they they want to help you
win.
Let them help you win.
I I don't know.
I uh Richard Lawson is adirector, actor.
I worked with him out here, andhe had this saying, he's like,
(35:25):
uh everybody's a genius untilproven otherwise.
And I that's how he came to hiscollaborations in theater and
stuff.
And I always thought that wasnice.
Just like, you know, basicallyit just reminds you to just
like, hey, hear everyone out.
If they made it in the room,they got the job, cool, hear
them out.
Let's they throw out this idea,well, let's let's try it.
Let's see what, you know.
(35:46):
Um, so yeah, I think I just tryto, I think just approach it
with like a humility of likethis person knows things that I
don't know, which is true.
And and um it doesn't mean likelike you said, like of course I
had I had my vision and I havemy ideas.
So it's like if it if it is isnot true to the idea, or if
(36:08):
they're missing an element ofthe final picture of my goal, if
I if I haven't communicated myfinal goal in a way that's clear
to them yet, then I then I needto do that as well.
But um, yeah, I just try toapproach it from like a I it the
I think the work ends up better.
I I can say that much.
Like because I listened to youand I listened to the musicians
(36:30):
and you know, and and the othercollaborators, I can uh say with
100% certainty that the finalproduct ended up being a lot
better than just purely, purely,I wrote it this way, play it
this way, and that's it, youknow?
So it's a win-win-win.
SPEAKER_03 (36:50):
Yeah, yeah.
But I always felt so stronglythat your love, not just for for
music, but also for humanbeings.
Like you love, it was so clearthat you love people that you
want us to to shy with you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:05):
Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_03 (37:06):
Yeah, and you were never intimidated and always
with like a curious mind to seewhat we had to say, what when we
had ideas.
That's that's something that I Iso appreciate.
It you don't always have thatkind of a collaborator.
SPEAKER_00 (37:22):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (37:23):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
Yeah, I love the process.
SPEAKER_03 (37:25):
So I know it's a busy season, any like upcoming
project that you want you canshare.
What are you working on?
The big things, small things,yeah, fun interesting.
I think everything you take onshould be interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Hopefully, you know.
Um yeah, so we got the animejuke jam next week.
Um, we're getting it filmed.
I I would love to tour it.
Um, so that's hopefully in thecards.
Um working on a few short films.
Uh, I just signed on to do themusic for this animated pilot,
(38:00):
which I'm really excited about.
It's like an animated sitcom uhthat would just that the
Kickstarter I think ends in liketwo days, but it's like already
like way funded and into thebonus funding thing.
So it's definitely happening.
It's this guy named uh he makesvideo essays about cartoons on
YouTube, but like it has beenfor like a long time, uh, named
(38:21):
Toon Riffet Tariq.
Uh so I'm really excited aboutthat.
We met and and got on a Zoom andlike just ended up like talking
for like two hours.
So I'm really excited aboutthat.
Um yeah, uh a few other like uhshort films and and some other
cool stuff, but uh but yeah, theanime juke jam is the one that's
(38:45):
like I'm obsessed with right nowthat it's hard for me to see
past, but uh it's so cool.
Like I said, we got like newanimations, these documentaries
that I I want to try to getpublished uh afterwards once I
can think about other things,but uh but yeah, just just just
more fun for this projectspecifically.
SPEAKER_03 (39:07):
Did you write the music first and then do you have
animation, or was there ananimation and then you write
music to it?
SPEAKER_00 (39:15):
Um I I think it was uh like the f the music first.
Yeah, like a a little bit ofboth.
I knew what the music was gonnabe, and then it kind of went
that way.
Um but then okay, you got that,but let's come back and do this.
So it's it's it's a it's adialogue as I unpack it.
SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
Of course, but then for animation, because it's it's
kind of set that they can'tadjust much on size, like during
performance, like then timingbecame very important.
How do you manage that?
SPEAKER_00 (39:51):
Um, it depends.
So for some of the stuff, it'snot like for some of it, it
doesn't need to be exact.
Like, like, you know, um if Iwas doing a bouncing ball
animation, that probably needsto be pumped, but you know, that
needs to be, but some of it it'slike it just some of it doesn't
have to be exact.
(40:12):
And so a lot of it's like that,where it's like like you know,
if there's characters dancingand stuff like that, where it's
like it can be more that worksto like 10 10 tempos that can be
as long as the the energy isthere, or it's stuff like that
mostly where um the stuff thathad to be exact, we made exact.
The stuff that didn't we wetried to lean to into a lot that
(40:32):
doesn't have to be exact forthis for this specifically.
SPEAKER_03 (40:35):
Yeah, yeah.
I can't wait to see it.
Once you have some what afterthe after the performance or the
premiere, I'm sure we can havelike stitch up that we can
hopefully bring you back toAtlanta or to a lot of other
places.
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
Hopefully.
SPEAKER_03 (40:52):
Finger crossed.
All right, just to close thisup, I always just ask this
question is there any word ofwisdom things that you want to
tell people who are listening?
No matter they are like, youknow, starting beginning
composition, slash conductor, orentrepreneur, things that you'll
(41:13):
learn that you wish you weretold earlier, or advice that had
been given to you that you wishyou don't have you didn't worry
that much about.
SPEAKER_00 (41:22):
Right.
Um I I got two.
One, I'll say start where youare is something I think people
struggle with a lot.
It's like uh I for example, Imeet a lot of people who was
like, Oh, I want my ownorchestra, I want to write for
orchestra.
I'm like, oh, that's great.
Like, have you like written anystring quartets or anything?
No, I don't want to do that.
(41:43):
I want to do orchestra.
It's like, well, can you can youafford that?
Do you know the people?
No.
It's like so you gotta startwhere you are.
Make the version, make theversion that you can make.
Like, for example, for the animejuke jam, it's like I have these
documentaries and animationstuff.
Like, if I had the money to doit the way I wanted to do it,
it's like I would have like thebig cameras and it would be like
(42:06):
the Netflix style docs, and andthere were a lot of things I
wanted to clear to include init, like to get licensed or
whatever to include in thedocumentary that I just flat out
can't afford to.
But I'm making the version thatI can now, and like hundreds and
hundreds of people have alreadybought tickets to it, and
they're gonna have a great time,and they're not gonna know, you
(42:27):
know, they you know, they'retheir uh art doesn't have to be
perfect to be impactful.
And so I would say start whereyou are.
Um, and then another one that Istruggle with personally that
I've been really thinking aboutlately, um, is if I could talk
to my younger self, I would sayspend a lot less time
(42:48):
deliberating and a lot more timetaking action.
Um, a lot of times we just spendso much time like trying to
decide between two options.
Should I do this?
Should I do that?
Where should I be spending mytime?
And like one, like the reason wewe delay is often because uh the
(43:11):
stakes feel really high for one.
Um but two, it's usually never,it's never really like even when
it is high, yeah.
But it's like it's like it'snever one thing that's gonna
like completely change yourlife.
Not that things can't level youup or bump you up, but it's not
one thing is never gonna be thegame changer.
And then second, the secondreason we often like delay is
(43:35):
because we don't have enoughinformation to make an in like
the most informed decision.
But what I found is that likeyou only get that information by
doing.
It's like it's likeunfortunately, and it sucks and
it's hard, and it takes a lot ofcourage and bravery.
But like, you know, think aboutthings.
I'm not saying to bespontaneous, but like think
(43:58):
about things, weigh youroptions, but.
Then, like once you've you'vethought it through and you've
and you've deliberated all theinformation you have,
unfortunately, the only way toget more information is to just
do the thing, which is gonnarequire you to make some
mistakes sometimes and learnfrom that and then be able to
learn and adjust.
Um, but yeah, I if I could goback in time, I would spend a
(44:19):
lot less time deliberating andmore time just like, okay, is it
this or this?
I I don't really have enoughinformation to make the best
decision.
I don't know which of these, Idon't know which of these
musicians to hire.
I don't know which of thesethings to spend my money on and
advertising or marketing.
I don't know.
So I'm just gonna I I think it Ijust make the informed decision,
(44:41):
flip a coin, okay, we're gonnago this way.
Let's try it.
You might try it and find it wasright, or you might find that it
wasn't and you should have gonewith this way, but now you know.
And and then in the next one,you can go this way.
You know, it's like I think Ithink that's the thing is like
you only get that moreinformation that you need uh by
(45:02):
taking action, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_03 (45:06):
Unfortunately, and unfortunately, yeah.
But I know that really sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
That's the deal.
SPEAKER_03 (45:14):
I know, but I I often felt that's such an irony,
like we live now in a world thatthat it's so much easier to to
obtain information compared toyou know, in our college
centers, no YouTube.
I had to tell my students no,like they asked me how like how
do you study a score withoutlistening to it?
I said there wasn't a therewasn't YouTube.
(45:36):
I wasn't able to listen to a lotof recordings like now, or like
I I wasn't Google able to Googlea lot of things, but then now we
have so much information,sometimes it makes it it even
harder to to just do it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:50):
I agree because we wanted like like I I think part
of it too is that we think wehave to have the best of
everything.
Like if you're gonna buy an icemaker, you're gonna read a bunch
of reviews on Amazon for likefive models.
You're gonna go to Reddit andsee what people have the best
(46:10):
ones.
You might watch a YouTuber thatyou like and see if there are
any like tech reviews, and it'slike you just need some ice.
Like, like the top ten will getyou, you'll be there, you'll
have ice.
Maybe it's not the best crystalsor whatever, but it's like you
don't have to have the bestversion, and I think that's part
of the trap.
And also another part is like uhI think school culture.
(46:32):
It's like I taught a collegecourse maybe like four or five
years ago, and like people wantto know, and this is not their
fault, I'm not faulting them.
This is about like the schoolsystem, is like what exactly is
gonna be on my test before thetest, like you know, all of the
thing, and it's like and youwant that in life, and that's
not how life works.
(46:52):
It's like it's like life doesn'tgive you all of the all of the
information and give you thechance to study it and prepare
for the test.
It's like no, you're at thecrossroads now, and you can
either make a decision or orstay where you're at, you know,
and and and then afterwards youget the answers.
And I I think it's a combinationof those things.
SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's such a great way to to sum it
up.
But thank you so much, Marcus,for your time and to speak with
me.
It's so nice just to see yourface again.
SPEAKER_00 (47:25):
You too.
SPEAKER_03 (47:26):
It's been such a long time, but I'm still happy
to see you and best wishes tothe cult to the cultures, and I
really I really want to see themhere in Atlanta or somewhere.
unknown (47:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
Hoping.
Hello, hello.
Welcome back to the ConductorsPodcast.
In today's episode, I'll bespeaking with Dr.
Marcus Norris, whom I had aprivilege to work with in 2022,
thanks to the Atlanta Opera's96-hour competition.
The 96-hour project is now apart of the NAL Festival, which
(00:28):
is a competition for a pair ofthe opera librettist and a
composer to get together andcreate a 10-minute mini opera.
The winning pair of thecompetition will also wing a
commission by the Atlantic Operato work on expanding this idea,
(00:50):
this 10-minute idea, into a fullone-act opera of an hour.
Marcus and Adama, his girlfriendback then, and now they are
newly red over the first yearcompetitions winners.
And because of this winningcommission, the Atlanta Opera
(01:11):
organized two opera workshopsfor them during the period of
writing this new opera.
And I was brought into thisproject and served as the
assistant conductor for both ofthe workshops and conducted the
world premiere of the finalproduction.
Marcus is a conductor, acomposer, a ranger himself, and
(01:35):
also founder of the South SideSymphony.
His idea of creating this newsymphony orchestra was what if
orchestra didn't exist and wereinvented today by a young black
man.
He describes the sound as likeif Quincy Jones grew up 90s RB
(01:55):
and rap.
This is why that this orchestraplays a lot of really cool and
exciting concert.
They are cross-or-learninggenres, styles, and musical
ideas, and they are alwaysreally exciting to attend.
In this episode, which wasrecorded in early June, Marcus
(02:17):
talks about the concert that wascoming up called Anime Jo Gen,
which will be repeated later inthis year.
If you're ever in a city wherethe anime jujin is offered, you
don't want to miss that.
Marcus is just a wonderful humanbeing, someone that I admire a
(02:38):
lot.
And I hope you will enjoy thisepisode and get to know him a
little more.
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
It has, it's been too long.
SPEAKER_03 (02:55):
Yeah, I know.
So Marcus and I met from the theproject uh with the Atlanta
Opera, the Forsyth County.
I think it was the first newopera that they commissioned.
Maybe we could start from there.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about that project?
Whatever you want to share withus.
I know it's been a journeyitself from beginning to the
(03:18):
end.
SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
Yeah, no, I mean it was it was really cool.
And I was really happy that wemet and I I loved working with
you and like your season.
You did great.
Uh yeah, so that was a reallyfun one.
I did it with my now my nowwife.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
Congratulations.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
Thank you, as of uh, you know, six months ago or so.
So there was the first year theyannounced the competition, and I
just completely misunderstoodthe competition.
You know, what is it?
96 hour opera project.
So I thought, like, okay, youapply and then you go there and
you write this opera in 96hours.
But that's what I thought aswell.
(03:59):
You thought, okay, okay, itwasn't just I saw the same.
SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
I saw the same.
I thought they fly you in andthen they give you something,
and then you just don't sleepfor 96 hours.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
What was actually supposed to happen is you were
supposed to have written italready, and then you put it
together in the 96 hours, whichmakes more sense.
Um, but so I got there and Ihadn't written the thing, and I
had to hurry up and do it.
And uh, you know, we ended upstill winning, which was which
was cool.
And we had COVID also during thecompetition, so we had to just
(04:33):
stay in our hotel rooms.
We had just came from likeinternational flights.
It was during that time, it wasit was a lot going on, but we
ended up winning that and thenuh decided to do a different
story for our actual commission.
And I I'm really proud of it.
I I think it came out reallycool.
(04:53):
Um there's video recording foranyone watching this.
You can you can access itthrough the Atlanta Opera's
website, however they have itset up at this time.
But uh, but yeah, it was it wasit was really cool.
Uh met a lot of cool people.
We I had been wanting to do morestuff in Atlanta and you know,
meet more musicians and andpeople working down there and
music, and uh it, you know, itbrought us together, so that's
(05:16):
cool.
SPEAKER_03 (05:17):
Yes, that's that's what fantastic.
But I I was gonna ask because Ialways thought the winning piece
was was the beginning of theopera that we premiered, but it
was not.
Did you end up using any of thewinning parts at all?
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
No, I think that maybe is how they do it now, and
I think that's like the plan,but it wasn't like specifically
codified that way when we did itthe first time, but I think
that's how it works now.
And our version for the winningcompetition thing was like it
just was its own thing, like itwas uh short and funny and and
(05:51):
had a little bit of you knowheart and substance to it, but
it wasn't a like trying to makethat into like an hour or 90
minutes just felt kind of alittle bit forced for the topic
that we had and for ourcompetition.
We kind of felt like if we wereto try to take this like good
thing that's like funny andpoignant, and like if if you
(06:13):
take a joke and then you say thesame joke over and over and over
again, eventually it's not veryfunny, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (06:18):
Um But that's a lot of the American TV shows that I
it is, it is, and it's like,hey, this is hey, I've heard
this joke, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
And so we we we talked with them about it, and
they they were uh kind enough tolet us do something different,
and they trusted us, which whichwas cool um to do something
different for for the uh for thelonger piece.
But I think now it might bebaked into the rules or uh or
the flow is that it's gotta bethe same thing for future people
(06:49):
so that they can be, and thatwould have been fine if we would
have been thinking about it thatway when we started.
But um, but yeah, we were ableto to make something cool.
SPEAKER_03 (06:58):
I don't know about rules.
I know I know the ones that I'vebeen working on, they were they
were similar stories, but it'snot necessarily the same musical
ideas.
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Like the one that's that's where premiering again,
um not again, but premieringthis weekend.
Um, they've been debating theirfelt the winning piece might
have been the middle of theopera or the end of the opera,
and then I heard it was theconcept, but not the actual
materials that's being used.
So Gotcha.
Yeah, but I think like as yousay, like write trying to write
(07:32):
something that's 10-15 minutesto win a competition is totally
different from writing like anan one act thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
Um have you been writing more operas since or I I
want to write more opera and youknow, and Dama and I are
talking, we were actuallytalking this morning about like
a musical, maybe.
Um, you know, I I love it.
It's just one of those thingswhere it's like I don't know,
you you need a little bit morelike I can put on a concert by
(08:04):
myself, like or like I canproduce a concert, but like
trying to self-produce an opera,it's like you kind of need the
you need the right backing, andyou know what I mean.
Um, but I'm hopeful and I uh youknow I look forward to doing it
again.
SPEAKER_03 (08:20):
You never know.
You never know.
You have good stories always,and good story told and that
persists, you know, and I I I'lldo it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
I I am starting to think about what is gonna be my
winter project when I'm justlike locked up for the holidays
in my house or whatever in thesnow.
It's like uh maybe it starts aslike a song cycle or or
something like that that has anarrative to it and see where it
goes.
And because I can stage aworkshop and stuff like that,
but anyway, I got ideas brewing.
SPEAKER_03 (08:46):
Yes, I trust you, you can write a song cycle in
like two nights.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
I'm getting too old now, though.
Like I'm slowing down, butstill, still.
SPEAKER_02 (08:59):
I was still talking about how you just wrote two
songs overnight and orchestrateda whole thing, and it was
awesome to play.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
So yeah, thinking about that yesterday, like uh me
and Adama were talking aboutsome of this stuff, and I was
just like, I remember being itwas about the workshops because
I remember telling her I waslike, I like I value those, and
about how you can have thisperfect idea, but then you put
it in front of somebody, and youimmediately realize, oh, it
needs this or that, and howuseful that process is.
(09:27):
So I was saying, like, if we ifwe do this musical or whatever,
it's like we need we can dothese workshops ourselves.
But I I was just thinking aboutthat because I remember we did
like one of the first coupleworkshops, and I got there, and
like we ran through it, and Iwas like, it needs a hit at the
end, it needs just it needs abig song, and then they were
like, Oh, yeah, so you'll go andyou'll work on that.
And I just came back with it thenext day.
(09:49):
Just like, nope, here it is.
SPEAKER_02 (09:52):
You know what?
SPEAKER_03 (09:53):
So, with since what happened with you now, we're
feeling in the schedule thatthere is one day for the
composer to write new things, soyou don't have to do it
overnight, but no one had takenadvantage of that since they're
like no, that's too much.
I miss Marcus.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
Maybe that means they planned better on the front
end, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (10:18):
Like everyone works differently.
But tell us about the theconcert.
You have a concert this weekendand next weekend that's with
your orchestra, right?
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
Tell us about it.
Next week is the big one.
It's making our performing artscenter debut at the Seggerstrom
concert hall down here.
It's like huge, huge hall.
It's beautiful.
We've been playing like theyhave like these outdoor plazas
or the small theater.
We've been like collaboratingwith the Segurstrom Center for
(10:48):
this would be our fifth year, Ithink.
Um, but this is the first timewe're like in the concert hall.
We got like a 20-piece group.
Uh, we're calling it the animejuke jam.
And it's just all about likethis cultural exchange between
uh Japan and anime and likeblack American music.
(11:09):
Like it kind of started becauseI, you know, I I grew up loving
anime, and I just startedthinking about it with my adult
brain.
Like, why is all of this likejazz and hip hop and like soul
and RB?
Like, it's amazing, it's socool.
I was just curious about thewhy, and it's so good.
(11:30):
And then I just I just did deepdive into the history and just
found amazing stories.
I commissioned new animation.
Um, it's like part concert, partlike documentary video essays
with like animation, liketalking about like the stories
behind some of these exchangesthat people aren't gonna know
yet.
I just went on this deep diveand had a lot of fun with it.
(11:52):
Um, all of that, plus the20-piece soul fusion orchestra
and funk and horns andsaxophones and drums.
I'm also doing, I brought on um,I found somebody who plays
shameson and but like is alsowilling to play jazz.
So we're gonna put like shamisenand soul and hip-hop, and I it's
(12:14):
gonna be crazy.
Um, and people are like reallyexcited about it in a way that
like is is energizing me.
Um, so yeah, that's the big one.
That's gonna be next weekend.
Um and then this weekend we'regonna take a smaller group.
Uh so the World Cup is I live inInglewood, and like the World
(12:34):
Cup is coming here, and the cityof Inglewood has decided to do
something called the Wood Cup.
So it's like that earlier thatday, before people go to that,
they can come to like this bigstreet block party where they
block off a whole bunch ofstreets and food and vendors and
everything.
(12:54):
I'm gonna bring like a group oflike maybe seven, eight people
and uh and musicians, and we'regonna play some fun block party
stuff.
I love stuff like that becauselike when I was a kid, those are
like my first type ofperformances.
I had this mentor, his name wasBenny Poole, and he was like
famous in the boogie-woogiestyle jazz and all these things,
(13:16):
like old school stuff.
And I was doing like rap and andand all that type of stuff at
that hip-hop.
But he would just take us tothese block parties, and then he
would just be like, he wouldjust set up like a microphone in
front of people who are justlike, you know, at the tables
playing spades and dominoes andeverything and just hanging out,
and he would just set us up themicrophone, the speakers, and
then we'd be like, Okay, nowmake them move.
(13:37):
And you'd be like, What?
Like, yep, no, this is it, thisis all you get, now do it.
And we were terrible at it, butit's like it's such a good, a
good test and kind of the litmustest for me now.
Anyway, so I always love thosethose style of performances, and
any opportunity I get to dostuff like that is always fun.
(13:57):
Um, but yeah, so it's a lot of alot of juggling, but all all fun
stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (14:03):
I know whenever you wherever you are, it's go always
going to be a lot of fun.
That I can promise.
But I know I I've alwayswondered because it I thought
you started as you know, likeyou say, a rap and RB as
songwriter, but it seems forsome people that there's a
bridge or a gap between like anorchestra or like an orchestra,
(14:25):
what people imagine that is.
But how did you can make thedots connected?
SPEAKER_02 (14:31):
Like what happened that you're like, oh, I want an
orchestra to do this, not a jazzband, not to get banned.
SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
Yeah, I mean, for me, genre has always felt like
an artificial construct, likelike they don't always feel so
separate to me.
Um, I like different styles ofmusic for different reasons and
different elements of it.
But I think uh for me, when Iwas in college, I was going for
my associate's degree at acommunity college uh in Michigan
(15:01):
around Detroit um for musicrecording technology.
But while I was there, they hadme take like some basic music
theory and and also some musichistory, and that's when I
started to get interest.
I was like, wow, this guy, thisguy Bach is going crazy.
You know, I've never never heardsomebody uh write music or uh
approach the way he approachesit, like with the counterpoint,
(15:22):
and then you go to Beethoven andMozart, and then Ravel and
Debusy, and you know, I likegood music, but I never stopped
liking the stuff that I grew upon, and so just like okay, it
just all gets added to mylanguage, and now I just always
try to write from my language,which was made up of you know,
(15:42):
you're a synthesis of all themusic that you listen to.
Um, but yeah, I've always feltthat genre, while I do
understand the differences instyles and stuff, I always felt
like it's not as rigid as a lotof times people think it is.
SPEAKER_03 (15:59):
So, how many instruments you play?
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
I play piano and like not great.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Same here.
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
I write at piano.
Like when I was in undergrad, Iwas you know playing piano as
part of my scholarship, but likeI was also I was going to school
for composing at that time, likemy bachelor's, and I was working
really, really hard at piano tobe just okay.
unknown (16:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
And I was good with it.
Like, I'm like, you're you'recutting it, you're solid, you're
okay.
But it's like I was looking atpeople who I now will like, you
know, to play on my stuff.
And I'm like, when that personwas 15 years old, they were
better than I will ever be.
But I was like, I'm pretty goodat this composing, and oh, you
(16:53):
know, I was like, I I'm actuallypretty good at this.
So I just had like a arealistic, pragmatic moment of
like, you know, you're workingreally hard to be okay at this,
but you're pretty good at thisother thing.
I bet if you really focused onthis, you could be, you know,
the man at that.
And and so I just, you know, Ihad to I had to go with my
(17:15):
strengths.
SPEAKER_03 (17:17):
But I have a question because I am still
amazed at how well you write fordifferent instruments.
When we worked together, you hadthis bigger, small ensemble that
we had.
We had string, we had brass, wehad woodwinds, we had piano.
But everything you wrote wasreally natural and fit that
(17:40):
instrument.
From where did you that learnthat skill?
From from your own group, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
Tons and tons of score study, and but more, but
also just like I I approachorchestration like what do I
like about this instrument or asinger or whatever?
What do I like about it?
And then how do I give them theopportunity to showcase that?
Like, is how I think about it.
(18:09):
You know, obviously, you know, Ihave a PhD in composition, so
I've been around a ton ofcomposer students in my life,
and it's like what I see a lotof times beginners do is like I
have this idea, I'm putting iton this instrument, and I don't
care how they feel about it.
And it's like, and it's like Ithat, you know, that might not
(18:32):
be the most conducive to gettinga good sound, you know?
And rather than than purelythat, I try to approach it from
like again, like what do theseinstruments do?
What is idiomatic to them?
What's the version of my ideawhere I can give them the best
opportunities to show that?
(18:53):
And it doesn't mean I don't takerisks or like I never get
anything, you know, I never pushthem a little too far or get it
wrong.
But when I do, I'm like, it'scalculated, like it's for a
specific reason.
Um, you know, I want theinstrument to sound strained, so
I'm making it go high, orwhatever, whatever it is, you
(19:14):
know what I mean?
It's it's like uh I think that'sthat's the main thing.
It's like just starting from aplace of like loving, loving
those instruments, and like justwant to give that musician.
And then also I always try togive every musician like an
opportunity to be like I thinkabout them as people, and I'm
always like, hey, I want themalways to have like a part where
(19:35):
it's like, hey, my part's comingup in that second movie.
Hey, make sure you listen.
Like if their family is in thecrowd, you know.
Yeah, I always try to give themthat.
SPEAKER_03 (19:44):
I can see that people starting to write for
instruments.
Sometimes they rely too much onthe MIDI playback.
So, oh, that sounds good.
But like I like that song.
I think that's playable, or theyplay piano, so they they don't
understand translating somethingfrom the piano to a different
instrument, it's totallydifferent.
The fingering, the the poem waydifferent.
(20:07):
Yeah, a lot of people forgetabout those, and I was like,
okay, this this sounds verystrange.
Um, when it's yeah, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
MIDI is like it tricks so many people, and not
even just beginners.
Like, MIDI tricks a lot ofpeople.
Um, it's a very useful tool.
Like, I don't want to say it hasnothing to do with what a real
orchestra is, but it has littleto do.
(20:36):
Um but yeah, the MIDI is likeit's a it's a double-edged
sword.
It's like it's so useful, um,especially if you're
collaborating with people andyou need to give them a sense of
what you got going on, but butyeah, it like it will lie to you
so much.
SPEAKER_03 (20:54):
Yes.
Oh my god.
I know we can talk like for daysabout that.
For sure.
Um, but I felt that's um I Ithink I watched some of the the
reels that you recorded forsocial media that you're talking
about, like letting yourmusicians shy.
And I certainly felt that.
And I'm pretty sure you do thatwith your orchestra as well.
(21:17):
So for the orchestra and foryour ensemble, do you write most
of the pieces that they areperforming?
I know you commission animatorsand you bring in people in.
How does that work?
SPEAKER_00 (21:29):
Yeah, so I think about us like in the lineage of
like a Duke Ellington and hisorchestra, um, or Cab Callaway
and his orchestra, Quincy andhis.
So yeah, I'm writing a lot ofthe music, but like we do
perform a lot of like otherpeople's tunes, but I usually do
the orchestrations for them aswell.
Um, and that's another thingthat helps me of just like I get
(21:52):
a lot of reps in.
You know what I mean?
So it's like I I write stuff.
Ah, that didn't quite work.
In the same way, that's I thinkthat helps with like um that
kind of sets the tone for theprocess of like how you're
talking about I was stillworking on the thing as we're
workshopping it because I feellike that ability to iterate
(22:14):
quickly.
And that's how Duke Ellingtongot so good.
That's how Bach got so good.
He was like writing music.
Bach was writing for churchevery week, Duke was writing for
the club every week, and so hewould show up and be like, oh,
this this worked.
That part didn't.
Let's oh, people loved it whenwe did this and that.
So let's let's do that in thenext piece.
(22:35):
Um, but yeah, that's usually onthe music, uh for the most part.
I think I'm like orchestratingand and writing most of it.
Um I love it.
SPEAKER_03 (22:47):
Have you ever counted like an on average how
many places are you workingtogether on at the same time, or
like every night's how many youcan get?
SPEAKER_00 (22:59):
It's too many.
Like I I literally don't know.
Like it's gotta be hundreds atthis point.
Um uh like over the years.
It's so much music.
I I'm getting smarter about itnow because I'm just getting
older and like I can't do allnighters anymore.
But I I was thinking about thatrecently because like the the
one we got coming up, the animejuke jam, is the first one where
(23:20):
I'm like, okay, I want to makelike a production.
Like this is like the way uhlike a musical or an opera is
where it's like, okay, well,let's pull up that boom.
We can put the anime juke jam.
Okay, they want us to do it inAtlanta.
Here's the anime juke jam,here's all the music.
Because when I first startedSouthside Symphony, it was like,
okay, cool, we're gonna do anhour concert.
Write an hour of music.
(23:42):
I'm not I'm like laughing aboutit, but that's literally what it
was.
Like the next concert we woulddo would just be like, here's
another hour of music.
And you can do that when you'relike 20 something, but now when
I have like other gigs andcommissions and and I just I
don't have that much energyanymore, um, I gotta get
smarter.
So it's like it's always thereall there is always new music on
(24:06):
our bigger concerts, like uh forthis anime juke jam one, it's
about like we did a earlier umversion of the concert two years
ago, like a prototype that thisis an expanded version of, and
maybe like half of the music isfrom that version and half of it
is new.
Um but yeah, I I I literallydon't know how much music is but
(24:30):
I actually I actually try not tothink about it.
Like, and and there's no likenot philosophical reason.
I just like I don't know, it'slike if uh if you ever seen like
a kid fall and like they don'tcry until you react as if they
should be hurt.
And I don't know.
(24:50):
As an analogy, that's how Ithink about it.
It's like if I don't measure howmuch because if I stop and think
about how much it is, then I'llprobably be like, I'll probably
start getting nervous and belike, there's no way you can do
all that or this and this.
So I try to just like I try tojust like wake up and like, all
right, we're working.
I'm in a busy season right now,and it's it's a lot of that.
It's just like, hey, don't I cansit here and stress about how
(25:12):
much I need to get done, or Icould just start chipping away.
SPEAKER_03 (25:17):
Love that, love the energy.
But you are wearing so many hatsat the same time as they say no,
um, no, it's is it more like aproducer?
Because before maybe you werejust thinking, I know we all
start this way.
I want us to conduct something,I want someone to play my music.
I just got a group, and then asit grows, there's the producing,
(25:38):
there's personnel management,there is this librarian part,
there's this promotion part,there's this fundraising part,
there's this site, contracting,negotiating.
There are so many things.
Um, what you love about themost?
SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
Which part do I love the most?
SPEAKER_03 (25:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
Oh, the music by far.
The performance.
Like I'm a performer.
Um, the people in the room is isthe fun part.
I love the musicians and thecommunity as well.
That means a lot.
Um, but yeah, I I love theperforming and the actual music.
How I manage all of those thingsis I think of them as three
(26:21):
different jobs, and that reallyhelps me in like three different
Marcuses.
In in the future, hopefully,like I have enough funds and
infrastructure where like I canjust do that music side, and I
can hire people to be the othertwo Marcuses.
But but like um, I I read thisbook some years back that's
(26:41):
really helpful.
I think I want to revisit again,but uh it's called the E Myth
Revisited.
It's basically theentrepreneurial myth.
Basically, it's like there arethree jobs for every like
founder.
Um, there is a technician,that's the person that actually
does the thing, whatever thething is.
In my case, music, you know, ourcase music.
(27:02):
So it's like the tech.
I'm I think at my in my heart,I'm the technician.
I'm the guy that just I justlike doing the thing.
I would do the thing if I wasn'tpaid to do the thing.
And then there is the manager,and that's the person who like
makes sure everybody gets theirmusic on time and make sure
everybody's paid on time and gottheir W9s in and is working with
(27:25):
the accountant, and that's alllike that's all like emailing
and everybody knows where topark and just all of those
things that you don't thinkabout before you get into this
gig.
That's the manager, and thenthere's the entrepreneur, and
that's the person who is liketrying to see opportunities
before they're opportunities andthinking ahead and like getting
creative and has all these bigideas.
(27:47):
So it helps me to kind of likesplit them into like which
version do I need to be today?
And it's like, okay, today Ineed to be the guy that is like
thinking about all this stuff,but then like, all right, well,
yesterday, entrepreneur put usin this situation where we got
these two constructs up.
So today I need to be tech.
I'm not answering no emailtechnician, I'm not answering
(28:07):
any emails, I'm just writing thenotes because we got to get them
parts in time, and you know whatI mean.
So it's I don't know, it's notlike a tangible thing or like an
app or a hack, but for whateverreason, like splitting it up,
thinking about it in my head asthree jobs, even if I have the
same amount of work, really ishelpful for me.
SPEAKER_03 (28:27):
Yeah, a lot of people start like a passion
project, but a lot of peoplestop because after a project or
two, there are just so manythings that drinks their
energies, or they lose theexcitement and passion, but
you've been doing it for solong, and each project's bigger
and more exciting.
SPEAKER_00 (28:48):
I yeah, I would definitely say if anybody is
feeling like that, you shouldread the book The E-Myth
Revisited by Michael Gerber.
Uh obviously, this is notsponsored or anything.
I'm just a fan of the book.
It's just like um, but he talksabout that exact situation, and
he's the person that made merealize okay, I think in the
book he talks about uh like abaker or a bakery.
(29:08):
And he was like, he basicallysays he's like, yeah, it's like
the entrepreneurial myth is likeum, we think like, oh, you're an
amazing, you're amazing atmaking cookies.
You love to make cookies, and soyou start this business, but you
don't know anything about likesourcing flour or like renting
out a place to do this, or themarket forces affecting the
(29:31):
baking industry.
And it's not to discourageanybody from doing those, but
it's just to make you aware.
It does really good at makingyou aware of all of these things
in these different jobs, andthen after that goes on to talk
about like how um okay, you'reat the point where you do need
help.
How do you do that?
Like what for for the person whois like scared to get help
(29:54):
because like you're the onlyperson that knows your system
and you're the only you care somuch about these details, and or
maybe you've tried to get anassistant in the past and you
couldn't.
So um, yeah, if you're if you'reone of those people, you know,
like like many of us, I wouldhighly recommend that book.
It's one that I've like giftedto some of my friends who I knew
were in that situation as well.
(30:15):
And I think I'm about overduefor a reread myself.
SPEAKER_03 (30:19):
Yeah, but that's not like something I I probably
should agree to.
I'm going to find it.
Um, but that's just gear alittle bit.
I know I sort of remember youstarted playing music at a young
age, right?
You start singing or playingfilming something at the
keyboard.
SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
I was uh making beats as a kid.
Yeah, I I when my uncles at myuh my grandmother's house had
like this, you know, uh FruityLoops at the time.
I think they've re rebranded toFL Studio now to try to sound
more professional.
But yeah, I was like I startedmaking beats when I was really
(30:59):
young, like 13, I think.
SPEAKER_03 (31:01):
Mm-hmm.
And that's how that your musicjourney started.
How did you decide you want togo somewhere and major in
composition?
You said you did it forundergrad.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yeah, because so I had gotten a uh my senior year,
I had gotten a two-yearscholarship to uh it was called
the Michigan Promise, and it waslike to any community college in
the state.
And so I wanted to go for likesome type of recording or
something music.
So because I was allself-taught, and you know, we
(31:32):
didn't have YouTube and wedidn't have all these things
that people have now.
And so I wanted to get, I wantedto be able to like make my music
sound better through likeproducing and engineering on the
on that side.
So I found a music recordingtechnology.
Um, and so I went for my twoyears there at it's called
Schoolcraft College aroundDetroit.
And uh, I think I mentionedearlier, it's like while I was
(31:54):
there getting this degree inmusic recording technology, they
had me take uh basic materialsin music theory, they had me
take music history, and so thenI was gonna go to Columbia,
Chicago for audio production,like continuing on my music
recording technology.
But I just had to be honest withmyself at that last minute.
I was like, I think I like thiscomposition stuff because after
(32:14):
I took that basic materials inmusic theory, I went on to take
like a bunch of independentstudies.
I had they had a really goodteacher there at the time, and I
went on to take like like musictheory one, two, three, four,
jazz theory, all of these thingsas independent studies.
Um and I just loved it.
So then by the time it was forme to transfer at the last
(32:36):
minute, I decided I was like,you know what?
If I'm being honest with myself,I think I like I think I want to
do this composition thinginstead.
And and so I switched at thelast minute.
SPEAKER_03 (32:46):
That's so so you say like being honest with yourself,
but that's not an easy thing todo.
Not and then the other thingthat I noticed about you through
our time working together isthat you were not just laid
back, but you really trustedevery single person that was in
(33:07):
the room.
Like we know the the piece thatyou wrote was your baby, but you
just trusted us.
Like you trusted me inrehearsals.
We we, of course, we hadquestions, we came to you for
clarification.
Sometimes I talk to you aboutsuggestions.
I was really nervous, likereally, really nervous.
I think I I Googled you beforewe first I read like 10
(33:30):
different websites about you andI was like, okay, this person
has a PhD in composition.
He also conducts, so youprobably feel like I would be
coming in not knowing shit aboutthe content.
But that was not easy for a lotof the composers.
Was that something that you hadto learn?
(33:51):
Or did you just naturally trustit?
SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
Sure.
I want to give an honest answer.
I think I just my philosophy isget people you can trust and
then trust them.
Like I think a lot of people areum, I don't know, like very
controlling.
I've heard Stravinsky was likethat.
Like I've heard stories thatStravinsky was very like if I
wrote uh a double dotted eighth,it better be a double dotted
(34:19):
eighth and not like an eighthtie to say, you know what I
mean?
Like it was just like reallylike um I don't know.
I just I think like people aresmart and creative, and like I
don't know everything.
I think I think there's ahumility in there of like, hey,
you know, I always tell uh whenespecially when I'm starting, I
(34:42):
would tell the musicians reallyexplicitly, like, you know, say
I'm writing something forsaxophone, I'm like, hey, you
know more about that saxophonethan I'm gonna know by the time
I'm on my deathbed.
You know, and so so like I wouldlove, and if you're nice to
people, you can learn from them,you know, like uh not that
people don't just take gigs, butlike even if it's a gig, like
(35:05):
musicians they're doing makingmusic because they like it and
they want it to sound good andthey they they want to help you
win.
Let them help you win.
I I don't know.
I uh Richard Lawson is adirector, actor.
I worked with him out here, andhe had this saying, he's like,
(35:25):
uh everybody's a genius untilproven otherwise.
And I that's how he came to hiscollaborations in theater and
stuff.
And I always thought that wasnice.
Just like, you know, basicallyit just reminds you to just
like, hey, hear everyone out.
If they made it in the room,they got the job, cool, hear
them out.
Let's they throw out this idea,well, let's let's try it.
Let's see what, you know.
(35:46):
Um, so yeah, I think I just tryto, I think just approach it
with like a humility of likethis person knows things that I
don't know, which is true.
And and um it doesn't mean likelike you said, like of course I
had I had my vision and I havemy ideas.
So it's like if it if it is isnot true to the idea, or if
(36:08):
they're missing an element ofthe final picture of my goal, if
I if I haven't communicated myfinal goal in a way that's clear
to them yet, then I then I needto do that as well.
But um, yeah, I just try toapproach it from like a I it the
I think the work ends up better.
I I can say that much.
Like because I listened to youand I listened to the musicians
(36:30):
and you know, and and the othercollaborators, I can uh say with
100% certainty that the finalproduct ended up being a lot
better than just purely, purely,I wrote it this way, play it
this way, and that's it, youknow?
So it's a win-win-win.
SPEAKER_03 (36:50):
Yeah, yeah.
But I always felt so stronglythat your love, not just for for
music, but also for humanbeings.
Like you love, it was so clearthat you love people that you
want us to to shy with you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:05):
Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_03 (37:06):
Yeah, and you were never intimidated and always
with like a curious mind to seewhat we had to say, what when we
had ideas.
That's that's something that I Iso appreciate.
It you don't always have thatkind of a collaborator.
SPEAKER_00 (37:22):
Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (37:23):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
Yeah, I love the process.
SPEAKER_03 (37:25):
So I know it's a busy season, any like upcoming
project that you want you canshare.
What are you working on?
The big things, small things,yeah, fun interesting.
I think everything you take onshould be interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
Hopefully, you know.
Um yeah, so we got the animejuke jam next week.
Um, we're getting it filmed.
I I would love to tour it.
Um, so that's hopefully in thecards.
Um working on a few short films.
Uh, I just signed on to do themusic for this animated pilot,
(38:00):
which I'm really excited about.
It's like an animated sitcom uhthat would just that the
Kickstarter I think ends in liketwo days, but it's like already
like way funded and into thebonus funding thing.
So it's definitely happening.
It's this guy named uh he makesvideo essays about cartoons on
YouTube, but like it has beenfor like a long time, uh, named
(38:21):
Toon Riffet Tariq.
Uh so I'm really excited aboutthat.
We met and and got on a Zoom andlike just ended up like talking
for like two hours.
So I'm really excited aboutthat.
Um yeah, uh a few other like uhshort films and and some other
cool stuff, but uh but yeah, theanime juke jam is the one that's
(38:45):
like I'm obsessed with right nowthat it's hard for me to see
past, but uh it's so cool.
Like I said, we got like newanimations, these documentaries
that I I want to try to getpublished uh afterwards once I
can think about other things,but uh but yeah, just just just
more fun for this projectspecifically.
SPEAKER_03 (39:07):
Did you write the music first and then do you have
animation, or was there ananimation and then you write
music to it?
SPEAKER_00 (39:15):
Um I I think it was uh like the f the music first.
Yeah, like a a little bit ofboth.
I knew what the music was gonnabe, and then it kind of went
that way.
Um but then okay, you got that,but let's come back and do this.
So it's it's it's a it's adialogue as I unpack it.
SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
Of course, but then for animation, because it's it's
kind of set that they can'tadjust much on size, like during
performance, like then timingbecame very important.
How do you manage that?
SPEAKER_00 (39:51):
Um, it depends.
So for some of the stuff, it'snot like for some of it, it
doesn't need to be exact.
Like, like, you know, um if Iwas doing a bouncing ball
animation, that probably needsto be pumped, but you know, that
needs to be, but some of it it'slike it just some of it doesn't
have to be exact.
(40:12):
And so a lot of it's like that,where it's like like you know,
if there's characters dancingand stuff like that, where it's
like it can be more that worksto like 10 10 tempos that can be
as long as the the energy isthere, or it's stuff like that
mostly where um the stuff thathad to be exact, we made exact.
The stuff that didn't we wetried to lean to into a lot that
(40:32):
doesn't have to be exact forthis for this specifically.
SPEAKER_03 (40:35):
Yeah, yeah.
I can't wait to see it.
Once you have some what afterthe after the performance or the
premiere, I'm sure we can havelike stitch up that we can
hopefully bring you back toAtlanta or to a lot of other
places.
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
Hopefully.
SPEAKER_03 (40:52):
Finger crossed.
All right, just to close thisup, I always just ask this
question is there any word ofwisdom things that you want to
tell people who are listening?
No matter they are like, youknow, starting beginning
composition, slash conductor, orentrepreneur, things that you'll
(41:13):
learn that you wish you weretold earlier, or advice that had
been given to you that you wishyou don't have you didn't worry
that much about.
SPEAKER_00 (41:22):
Right.
Um I I got two.
One, I'll say start where youare is something I think people
struggle with a lot.
It's like uh I for example, Imeet a lot of people who was
like, Oh, I want my ownorchestra, I want to write for
orchestra.
I'm like, oh, that's great.
Like, have you like written anystring quartets or anything?
No, I don't want to do that.
(41:43):
I want to do orchestra.
It's like, well, can you can youafford that?
Do you know the people?
No.
It's like so you gotta startwhere you are.
Make the version, make theversion that you can make.
Like, for example, for the animejuke jam, it's like I have these
documentaries and animationstuff.
Like, if I had the money to doit the way I wanted to do it,
it's like I would have like thebig cameras and it would be like
(42:06):
the Netflix style docs, and andthere were a lot of things I
wanted to clear to include init, like to get licensed or
whatever to include in thedocumentary that I just flat out
can't afford to.
But I'm making the version thatI can now, and like hundreds and
hundreds of people have alreadybought tickets to it, and
they're gonna have a great time,and they're not gonna know, you
(42:27):
know, they you know, they'retheir uh art doesn't have to be
perfect to be impactful.
And so I would say start whereyou are.
Um, and then another one that Istruggle with personally that
I've been really thinking aboutlately, um, is if I could talk
to my younger self, I would sayspend a lot less time
(42:48):
deliberating and a lot more timetaking action.
Um, a lot of times we just spendso much time like trying to
decide between two options.
Should I do this?
Should I do that?
Where should I be spending mytime?
And like one, like the reason wewe delay is often because uh the
(43:11):
stakes feel really high for one.
Um but two, it's usually never,it's never really like even when
it is high, yeah.
But it's like it's like it'snever one thing that's gonna
like completely change yourlife.
Not that things can't level youup or bump you up, but it's not
one thing is never gonna be thegame changer.
And then second, the secondreason we often like delay is
(43:35):
because we don't have enoughinformation to make an in like
the most informed decision.
But what I found is that likeyou only get that information by
doing.
It's like it's likeunfortunately, and it sucks and
it's hard, and it takes a lot ofcourage and bravery.
But like, you know, think aboutthings.
I'm not saying to bespontaneous, but like think
(43:58):
about things, weigh youroptions, but.
Then, like once you've you'vethought it through and you've
and you've deliberated all theinformation you have,
unfortunately, the only way toget more information is to just
do the thing, which is gonnarequire you to make some
mistakes sometimes and learnfrom that and then be able to
learn and adjust.
Um, but yeah, I if I could goback in time, I would spend a
(44:19):
lot less time deliberating andmore time just like, okay, is it
this or this?
I I don't really have enoughinformation to make the best
decision.
I don't know which of these, Idon't know which of these
musicians to hire.
I don't know which of thesethings to spend my money on and
advertising or marketing.
I don't know.
So I'm just gonna I I think it Ijust make the informed decision,
(44:41):
flip a coin, okay, we're gonnago this way.
Let's try it.
You might try it and find it wasright, or you might find that it
wasn't and you should have gonewith this way, but now you know.
And and then in the next one,you can go this way.
You know, it's like I think Ithink that's the thing is like
you only get that moreinformation that you need uh by
(45:02):
taking action, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_03 (45:06):
Unfortunately, and unfortunately, yeah.
But I know that really sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
That's the deal.
SPEAKER_03 (45:14):
I know, but I I often felt that's such an irony,
like we live now in a world thatthat it's so much easier to to
obtain information compared toyou know, in our college
centers, no YouTube.
I had to tell my students no,like they asked me how like how
do you study a score withoutlistening to it?
I said there wasn't a therewasn't YouTube.
(45:36):
I wasn't able to listen to a lotof recordings like now, or like
I I wasn't Google able to Googlea lot of things, but then now we
have so much information,sometimes it makes it it even
harder to to just do it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:50):
I agree because we wanted like like I I think part
of it too is that we think wehave to have the best of
everything.
Like if you're gonna buy an icemaker, you're gonna read a bunch
of reviews on Amazon for likefive models.
You're gonna go to Reddit andsee what people have the best
(46:10):
ones.
You might watch a YouTuber thatyou like and see if there are
any like tech reviews, and it'slike you just need some ice.
Like, like the top ten will getyou, you'll be there, you'll
have ice.
Maybe it's not the best crystalsor whatever, but it's like you
don't have to have the bestversion, and I think that's part
of the trap.
And also another part is like uhI think school culture.
(46:32):
It's like I taught a collegecourse maybe like four or five
years ago, and like people wantto know, and this is not their
fault, I'm not faulting them.
This is about like the schoolsystem, is like what exactly is
gonna be on my test before thetest, like you know, all of the
thing, and it's like and youwant that in life, and that's
not how life works.
(46:52):
It's like it's like life doesn'tgive you all of the all of the
information and give you thechance to study it and prepare
for the test.
It's like no, you're at thecrossroads now, and you can
either make a decision or orstay where you're at, you know,
and and and then afterwards youget the answers.
And I I think it's a combinationof those things.
SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's such a great way to to sum it
up.
But thank you so much, Marcus,for your time and to speak with
me.
It's so nice just to see yourface again.
SPEAKER_00 (47:25):
You too.
SPEAKER_03 (47:26):
It's been such a long time, but I'm still happy
to see you and best wishes tothe cult to the cultures, and I
really I really want to see themhere in Atlanta or somewhere.
unknown (47:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:36):
Hoping.
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