Episode 11: Work, Loneliness, Human Connection, and Adult Friendships with Gabe Whitmer

Chattanooga Counseling and Consulting is a Chattanooga, TN based counseling and consulting business.  You can find more about us at: https://www.chattanoogacounselingandconsulting.com/

Gabe Whitmer's Services: 

• https://www.fbmortgageloans.com/lo/gwhitmer/
• https://contrastcoffee.com/

What would happen if you approached every interaction with the baseline assumption that everyone wants to be your friend? Gabe Whitmer, who manages one of the top 20 mortgage lending teams in the nation, credits this simple mindset shift as a cornerstone of both his personal happiness and professional success.

In this deeply insightful conversation with Josh Zello, Gabe reveals how an ethical dilemma at AT&T propelled him into a career revolution, ultimately leading to building not just a business but a community of connection. "I want to lead, not manage," Gabe shares, explaining how he's cultivated a work environment where values thrive, autonomy reigns, and relationships flourish.

The heart of the episode centers around a profound truth: "People are inherently lonely and they just need a friend." This observation from Gabe's wife serves as a touchstone throughout their exploration of adult friendships. Both men unpack how genuine connections develop through reciprocity, vulnerability, and what Josh calls the "interpersonal piggy bank" - the balance of investments and withdrawals that characterize healthy relationships.

Particularly valuable is their discussion about how friendships naturally wax and wane through different life seasons without diminishing their significance. Gabe's refreshing approach to connection dismantles the mental torture many experience wondering about relationship status, replacing it with a foundation of trust and openness that invites deeper bonds.

Whether you're building a business, nurturing friendships, or simply seeking more meaningful connections, this conversation offers practical wisdom for creating relationships that both fulfill our innate need for community and reveal who we truly are. Subscribe now for more transformative conversations that challenge conventional thinking and inspire authentic living.

Episode Transcript

Josh Zello (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the Counselor's
Chair podcast.
I'm your host, josh Zello, andI'm excited to be back with you
for an episode with my friend,gabe Whitmer.
Gabe is created and manages oneof the top 20 performing
mortgage lending teams in thenation, and his team also lands
in the top 10 in customerservice nationwide year over
year.
He's a local Chattanoogainvestor and co-owns Contract

(00:24):
Coffee in the Upper Peninsula.
On top of all this, gabe is adedicated husband, father and
friend, and a guy that I reallyrespect for his ability to
connect with folks and maintainrelationships, and that's
exactly what we talk about inthis episode.
So thanks for listening and Ihope you enjoy.
Also, for anyone interested,I'll be doing a free live stream

(00:44):
on March 25th from 12 to 1 pmEastern, called 10 Ways to
Manage Adult ADHD.
I'll leave the link in thedescription below and feel free
to pass it along or registeryourself.
Enjoy.
Hey everybody, welcome back tothe podcast.
Sorry for the four-year-longhiatus.
We took a little break for thepandemic and then didn't have

(01:04):
time to pick it back up, butexcited to be back in the saddle
and with Gabe today.
So, gabe, thanks so much forcoming on.

Gabe Whitmer (01:13):
Yeah, hey, thanks for having me.
I feel honored to be the numberone guest after the four years.
This is great.

Josh Zello (01:18):
I mean, I think for me, as I was going through
people that I would like to haveon, I mean your positive
disposition, man, it's just likecontagious and I was like you
know what.
To be back in this for thefirst time, have Gabe in front
of me and get this back underwaysounded like a great plan.
So thanks again, dude.
Yeah, absolutely, I have aquestion for you out of the gate

(01:38):
, and I've actually been wantingto ask you this for years.
I have this memory of you, andit was at my kid's birthday
party.
We were actually standing onthe back deck and you had been
killing it at AT&T withmanagement and a management
position, if I understood thatcorrectly, and you were looking
to make a bit of a change, and Ithink you were debating back

(02:01):
and forth between what you'redoing now and, maybe, financial
advisor.
Were you going back and forthbetween the two?

Gabe Whitmer (02:08):
there's a couple out there.
Yeah, there's a couple.
We were like playing andnavigating and trying to figure
out what to do yeah, so you were, but they were all self-starts,
right, they were all.

Josh Zello (02:18):
they were all.
How do we get, how can I getthe ball rolling on my own thing
?
You know, which made a lot.
I mean, to me it made a lot ofsense at the time.
You got all the characteristicsto to kick something off and
and get people on board.
But what's wild is is obviouslyyou chose the lending route and
have built an amazing thing inthe last.
That had to have been 10 yearsago, 10, 11 years ago, and it's

(02:40):
been kind of wild to watch froma distance.
You've built this behemoth ofan organization and an
incredible life.
Man, it's really been cool tosee and I've been curious.
It's like something switched inyou, like something happened
right around that time or maybein the years subsequent, because

(03:01):
I think you were with maybe twodifferent banks before you
wound up with First Bank, if Iremember right.
So your life just exponentiallygrew.
It's like you put the pedaldown to the metal and just
floored it.
Describe that time in life alittle bit and what switched
over for you.

Gabe Whitmer (03:22):
Yeah.
So coming out of AT&T wasfascinating.
I was managing an area.
I had two guys One had beenthere 10 years, one had been
there eight years Got themselvesinto some code of business
conduct issue Never had had anemployment issue prior.
What they did was wrong and HRcame and said Gabe, you make a

(03:43):
decision whether we want to putthem on a notice or whether we
want to terminate them.
And I thought about it for along time and I looked at
histories and I looked at whatthey've done for the company and
I was like these guys have beenreally loyal.
They've had chances to leave.
I'm going to put them on afinal notice that gives them a
year to kind of work off of it,stay employed, improve

(04:03):
themselves.
And the next morning I walkedin and my boss had termination
paperwork on the table.
And it was this flip of for meof I can be a company guy to
they're not going to make thedecisions I expect them to make.
And AT&T is a great company,right, huge company.

(04:23):
They did a lot of things for mewell, they taught me a lot of
amazing stuff.
But it was that moment, and itwas probably like six months
after that, that we were on yourdeck and I was like this isn't
going to last.
I can't work for a company thatthis is how they treat people
in the end.
And again, great memories,great friends still at AT&T.
Then it was do I want to startsomething from the ground up?

(04:46):
Do I want to jump intofinancial planning?
I got recruited by at the timeFSG Bank, a good friend of mine,
jill Green.
She now runs a hedge fund.
She said hey, let me bring youinto mortgage, let me train you.
They did somethingunprecedented.
They put me into a six-monthsales.
I processed, I underwrote, Ilearned the business and they

(05:09):
just taught me.
And so many people had said, oh, it's an old man's game, you
can't learn it, it is what it is, you'll never get into it and I
don't golf right.
So it was interesting.
And so FSGB Bank merged withAtlantic Capital Bank and

(05:29):
Atlantic Capital Bank got boughtby First Bank.
And it was interesting whenFirst Bank bought Atlantic
Capital, first Bank came andsaid what do you want?
And I said I want to grow.
And they said how do you wantto grow?
And I said I want to grow.
And they said how do you wantto grow?
And I said I don't know.
And they said, well, when youanswer that question, come back,

(05:50):
we're merging in, you're here.
And so it allowed me to hireguys like Tyner and Zach, who a
lot of guys we kind of grew upwith the last 10, 15 years and I
got to build somethingorganically.
And none of the guys hadexperience in mortgage.

(06:11):
They had experience in life,they had experience in people,
they had experience in how tonavigate tough situations with
people.
And so I think that's probablythat timing of I really loved
mortgage.
But First Bank open-ended it andjust said, hey, what do you
want?
Go grow your own brand.

(06:32):
And I was like, okay, and so itwas probably some freedom to do
that.
It was probably the right time,the right place.
And then when you're doing that, you're asking yourself
constantly am I doing the rightplace?
So it's you know.
And then when you're doing that, you're asking yourself
constantly am I doing the rightthing?
Am I treating my people right?
Are we taking care of clientsthe right way?

(06:53):
Why is it done like this, whenwe could do it like this?
And so we constantly come backand go, hey, what do we need to
shift and change here?
But I think that timing isreally kind of the boom.

Josh Zello (07:08):
Huh.
So all of that came from a bitof an ethical dilemma for you.
I'm sure that felt like acrunch too.
A bit of suffering in there foryou.

Gabe Whitmer (07:18):
You kind of feel like you're on the wrong side of
Star Wars, right, you're likeI'm not on the Jedi side like I
want, and so, yeah, I canpinpoint that, because I was
going to go the career route andsee how long that took me and
then it was like nope, not goingto do it.

Josh Zello (07:37):
Yeah, you took a hard right, man.
Took a hard right and built aculture and you kind of wove
this in there.
Built a culture with yourfriends.
I mean the first bank opened itup for you.
You brought in people like yousaid that I've heard of or known
, in the circles of all theoverlapping circles that we have
in life.
You started bringing them in.
And what was it like bringingyour friends into business?

(08:00):
You know, and I think that'sprobably I know you wanted to
focus on friendship, sort ofthematically, but I think you
had this opportunity to reallybring people with you as you
built this wonderful life thatyou have in front of you, right?
So what's it been like bringingfriends in and the positives,
and then also maybe some of thedifficulties of navigating that

(08:23):
in business, if you've had anyof those pop up.

Gabe Whitmer (08:25):
So on the mortgage side it's been a lot of fun.
So I had a couple people on myteam already from an assistant
standpoint or a supportstandpoint.
We were up in Nashville seeingsome friends who'd moved back
from Buffalo Tiffany and Tynerand we were sitting and having a
drink and Caitlin, my wife, waslike Tyner, why don't you come

(08:46):
work for Gabe?
I kind of looked at her becauseshe knew I had actually hired a
guy.
He came on, he was there twodays, went back to his last
place because they called himand offered him more money.
At that point I was kind oflike no, I'm done with this team
thing, I'll do it myself.
The reality is it takes teamsto excel and do well and we need

(09:11):
support.
Caitlin looked at Tyner and waslike why don't you come work
for him or with him more thananything?
He kind of looked back and waslike okay, I went back to the
bank and we wrote him an offer.
He was the first one.
Now we have a team of 14.

(09:33):
I kind of like to lead and notmanage.
So I tell people I'm like look,I'm going to hop in with you
when there's a problem.
We're going to be there.
I don't want to tell you how todo your job.
I'm going to help you grow.
We're going to be there.
I don't want to tell you how todo your job.
I'm going to help you grow,we're going to grow together.
I tell people all the time I'ma great leader.
I know I'm a great leader, butI am not a good manager.

(09:55):
I have a life coach who givesme some management tidbits and
he's great and helps me.
I always look at it of how dowe lead people, how do we help
people.
I don't want to come back andbe like did you do?
Xyz did, and so I think it's afit, because we don't

(10:15):
micromanage, but we it's.
It's as close as a family, awork family as, as I've seen,
and it and it's really coolbecause of that.

Josh Zello (10:27):
Yeah, I hear that.
I mean in that I'm guessingyou're giving your people a fair
bit of autonomy right, notnecessarily coming down on their
heads, but also the gentlebreeze behind the ship, Trying
to move everybody along in agood direction and letting them
steer at the same time.

Gabe Whitmer (10:47):
It's funny because it's mortgage banking.
It has some service, has somesales, has some education, has a
little bit of everything.
At the end of the day, if youstep back and just realize how
much impact it has on people'slives from a security standpoint
, from a wealth standpoint, fromyour kids have their own

(11:08):
bedroom standpoint, it's reallyfreaking cool, right, and so
that part of it's great.
But then to share that with agroup of people and go, hey,
when your kid's out of school atthree, go pick them up right,
Work when you need to and wework a lot, but we have the
ability to step in and go, hey,I'm going to go to a volleyball

(11:28):
game from four to six and I'mgoing to hop back on.
Or I worked my schedule thisway today and it's.
You know, it's work hard, playhard, but let's just take care
of people and love on them andmakes it fun.

Josh Zello (11:43):
You built a system that your values can operate in.
Yes, right.

Gabe Whitmer (11:46):
Yeah.

Josh Zello (11:47):
Yeah, and that you can stay attentive to those
values and pursue them at thesame time.

Gabe Whitmer (11:51):
That's right.

Josh Zello (11:51):
Yeah, including friendships in the office,
friendships outside of familytoo, right.
So that's something Iappreciate about being in
business myself too.
I worked for Lee for years andbefore I jumped, I kind of
jumped ship to my own practice,which the autonomy for me was

(12:11):
unreal and it turned into amission honestly to try and
provide that for my employees.
Counselors, you know, we'rehelping people through some of
the most difficult times in lifeand oftentimes the companies
that employ counselors don'ttreat them well and I think from

(12:32):
some of my own experiences andmy own ideology and my own
values was just like man I would.
I'm not just creating this formyself at this point, like I'm
creating this for the counselorsthat eventually are going to be
underneath me.
One point that was a muchlarger number than it is now.
I'm kind of comfortable withwhere it is now shrunk it down a
bit, but yeah, that being ableto pursue your values and

(12:56):
creating an environment whereyou can comfortably pursue them,
both at work but then whenyou're off of work at home with
the kids.
And I'm curious for you, man,because again, like I said at
the beginning, just sort ofpulled to your personality and I
think a ton of people arepulled to your personality.
I mean, our circles overlap allover the place, right?

(13:16):
So if I happen to bring yourname up or somebody's like hey,
do you know this person?
Like yeah, absolutely, and theyjust their faces light up.
Can you share a little bitabout your values as a person,
like if you were to think whatare the things in life that I
value?
Maybe, if you want to breakthem into categories of family
and business and friendships,what lights you up, man, like

(13:37):
what are those values behindyour sort of more positive
approach to life, I think, andto relationships?

Gabe Whitmer (13:43):
Well, hey, I appreciate everyone thinking
that and seeing that.
You know, the reality isthere's highs and lows, right oh
?

Josh Zello (13:51):
of course.

Gabe Whitmer (13:51):
I work really hard to be a great husband, a great
dad, a great friend and a greatmortgage guy.
I learned a while back I can'tbe good at everything else.
I have interests right Like.
You're going to take me flyfishing sometime and it's going
to be great.

Josh Zello (14:05):
We'll get the boys together on the pond soon too.
It's warming up.

Gabe Whitmer (14:13):
Yeah, I'll never be the best fisherman and I'm
okay with that.
Right, I'm okay being good atwhat I'm good at, you know.
I mean, if you take those fourthings and you kind of go how,
how do how can we impactpeople's lives and treat people?
It comes back to that A littlebit of kindness can change
people's lives, right, and likeI may not be having the best day

(14:38):
, but I realized how I impactsomeone buying a coffee at the
coffee shop or sitting down withsomeone, like they could have
had a much worse day than me.
If I can bring a little bit oflight and smile, that's what I
want to do.
You'll appreciate this.
My nickname in high school wasSmiles.
I could be being beat up on thefootball field and I was just
walking off with a big smile.

(14:59):
I don't know how many musclesit takes to smile, but I just
try to smile constantly.
But people need that right andthey need people that show up
and engage and care.
And you know, like RobinWilliams was one of my favorite

(15:22):
people and we all know he endedhis life tragically but he
brought so much joy to peopleand it was free, it was, he was
himself.
Now there's mental health stuffthere and there's stuff that
happened.
But I think that's it for me,is I just come back to?
Can I, can I make somebodyhappy?
So it's I don't.

(15:49):
I appreciate that you say thatpeople are drawn to me, like
that's great, right, I want tobe engaging and you need to hear
it too.
Oh, thank you, but I don't know, like I really don't know the
core of it.
I have you've met my dad, yeah,and my mom, absolutely.
I have two great parents,dynamic people, um, they, they,

(16:10):
they did what you did right, solike they're therapists and like
they, like maybe, maybe there'sa huge piece of that, um, yeah,
but it's, I don know.
We get the ability to be aliveand I don't really care if
you're working at McDonald's, asbehind the register you're

(16:32):
running, you know Vokr, right,and you're doing cars and
Volkswagen, I guess would beVolkswagen, not Vokr.
You have the ability to makechange in people and improve,
and so if you wake up and go,who am I going to impact today,

(16:53):
it can be pretty cool.
Well, that's beautiful.

Josh Zello (16:55):
That's a beautiful value Kindness, care.
I hear compassion in that too.
But also you kind of have tohave eyes to see that right.
You have to have eyes to seepeople that might need that kind
of impact or just notice folks.
Might be folks you know, mightbe folks you don't know.
But if kindness is a high value, you tend to see people more,

(17:18):
you tend to look up, you tend tothink about giving more than
you think about getting orreceiving.
That's really kind of what Iheard in what you were saying
too.
I can't remember if it was StFrancis.
He said one of the only waysyou can know yourself is by
giving yourself away.
And it's a powerful thing, man.

(17:40):
When you're able to give to thepeople around you, even if it's
just kindness, there's anelement of yourself that you
discover Right Like.
There's like self-discovery andgiving.
And in our culture that'sthat's not necessarily front,
that's not a message, that'sfront and center, you know well,
we're guarded Right.

Gabe Whitmer (18:01):
We don't as a culture, we don't want to give a
trade secret away or we don'twant to open up the door where
someone judges us too much.
What you just said is funny,because I say this constantly is
give time freely.
And then the flip side isthere's a boundary to that,
which is until somebody takesadvantage of it.

(18:24):
But give time freely.
It like somebody calls and says, hey, I want to learn how to I
don't know how to fix credit, orI want to learn how to drive a
car, and they don't know.
Like it's not hard to say, yeah, I can, I can help you with
that and you fit it into theschedule.
Right, it doesn't have to be.
You leave your family and youtake time away.

(18:46):
Like, fit it into the schedule.
But yeah um giving freely.

Josh Zello (18:51):
I think is is a really cool aspect yeah, well as
as, especially where there'sthis sort of subconscious return
, you know you're not doing itnecessarily for anything, um,
but you wind up receivinginwardly this, this revelation
of self like, oh, who am I andwhat have I, what am I made of?
And yeah, I mean when you giveit puts constraints on things,

(19:13):
like it puts some timeconstraint.
You coming here, you're givingyour time to this right now.
That means that you're missingpotential opportunity elsewhere.
It puts constraints on thingsand I think that that pressure
actually squeezes some goodthings out of us, kind of like
the ethical dilemma that youfaced at AT&T.
That sort of squeezed you intosomething better for yourself.

Gabe Whitmer (19:37):
Yeah, I know when you had coffee a while back and
you were like, man, mycaseload's huge and I'm running
that and you loved it.
But the other thing I rememberyou saying something like it's
made me more efficient, right.
So like the flip side of allthat is you give time freely and
you care and you're kind topeople and you talk to them in
the hallway and you give themsome smiles, but it makes like

(20:01):
when you give time away, itmakes you more efficient of the
things you need to do.

Josh Zello (20:05):
Yeah, that's a good thread in together, because it
definitely has.
Well, it takes things out ofthe peripheral.
You wind up focusing on whatactually matters, because your
time is full and full of goodthings.
I had this realization when Iwas like 35, which I won't give

(20:27):
away my age right now when I waslike 35,.
I wish it had come to me soonerand it was like the day after my
35th birthday and somebodyasked me how I was doing and I
was like I can't remember who itwas that asked me.
I wish I could place it.
But they asked me how I wasdoing.
I was like man.
I can't remember who it wasthat asked me.
I wish I could place it.
Um, but they asked me how I wasdoing.
I was like man.
I'm kind of stressed, I'm tired,I feel overworked, not

(20:52):
necessarily undervalued, maybeundervaluing myself, you know
and I feel like I have all thisstuff that I'm running to and I
don't have like a lot of my ownvital energy to bring into
places.
I'm just kind of searching forsomething in me to meet needs,
you know, just patching holes inwalls.
And after I said it, somethinghit.
You know.

(21:13):
You can call it a divine moment, you can call it an existential
moment of realization, wheresomething smacked me like really
hard and I was like did I just?
I just complained about thethings that the 25 year old me
would have died for.
So I just spent the last 10years building all of this

(21:36):
because it's exactly what Iwanted and it's good, and I
haven't realized it yet.
I'm actually complaining aboutit and I get like I'm not trying
to say like everything issunshine and rainbows and we
should just never complain.
Complaining is a part of life.
But in that moment, somethinggot squeezed out of me, a very

(21:58):
significant reframe of like mylife is full of good things, my
time is full of good things, mylife is full of good things, my
time is full of good things, andrather than perceiving them as
needs that are pulling out of me, it's like no, these are things
that I actually get to pourinto.

Gabe Whitmer (22:14):
Well, and it's really hard to live in the day.
It's really hard because everycouple of days I feel like I'm
setting new goals, but thatmeans the goalposts keep
changing.
You have to sometimes go, man.
I've made it this far and I'vegotten to help this many people
and I get to have my familyright.

(22:35):
And yeah, you said, a25-year-old me would be really,
really proud of 35-year-old meand you just got to sit back
sometimes or acknowledge itdaily.

Josh Zello (22:45):
Yeah, you know, here's where I am yeah, given
that those younger parts ofourselves room to actually enjoy
what they labored for.
And I guess that gets to some ofthe friendship stuff, because
I'm really curious.
We're talking about time, we'retalking about this value of
kindness and connection withother people, and I know you
were telling me that you havebeen thinking about this idea of

(23:08):
adult friendships, and havingadult friendships requires
kindness, connection,consideration, looking up,
seeing people, valuing your timeenough to also bring people
into it.
I mean, all this stuff justkind of dances right around the
adult friendship stuff.
So yeah, like what brought thatup for you, man?
I think I'm curious to hearmore about what sparked that.

Gabe Whitmer (23:33):
It's fascinating, caitlin, my wife right, and I
say you know Caitlin well but Isay that for everyone listening
has the last four or five years,I'll say something.
And she was like remember,people are inherently lonely and
they just need a friend.

Josh Zello (23:52):
Man.
We have some wise wives wemarried.

Gabe Whitmer (23:56):
I'm glad we're doing this, but they could be
here schooling us 100%.
And so it's fascinating because,especially when you have a
family inviting another familyinto your home, your kids have
to engage, your spouse has toengage.
It's not just if you're mergingfamilies for an evening of

(24:20):
dinner or drinks or whateverthat looks like.
That's hard because you're notjust trying to go.
You know two dudes hanging out.
But that phrase of people areinherently lonely is in my soul
because they are Like they are,and so when you offer them a

(24:40):
hand, people are very quick toto grab on um, and so it's funny
.
Someone recently we were at thebaseball field and silas was
playing and I was like, hey, we,you know, I was talking to him,
I was like we'd love to haveyou over one night and they were
like to to your house and I waslike, yeah, like where else

(25:03):
would that?
Right?
And they're like you want tohang out with us?
Yeah, and what you find out isthat most people don't really
know how to do adult friendships.
If they have a neighbor, that'smaybe a friendship, close or
not.
They have some work friendships.
But it's really hard to beintentional, and so it's been a

(25:26):
lot of fun.
It's been a lot of fun gettingto do that and just realizing
that we have an opportunity tobe friends with people.
It's been fun watching our kidshave to engage differently.
We were on the way to someone'shouse, like six, eight months
ago, and the kids were kind ofcomplaining Like we don't know

(25:49):
them, who are they?
And Caitlin turned around andshe was like this is part of you
being a Whitmer, like you'regoing to show up and you're
going to ask questions andyou're going to engage, and it
doesn't mean you're going to bebest friends, but you can smile
and you can have fun.
And they ended up sitting onthe couch playing Mario Kart and
chasing each other around thebackyard.

(26:10):
But it takes time, right, ittakes energy, but it's what
we're here for.

Josh Zello (26:18):
That quote from Kat too.
I mean, that's well.
From my work throughout theyears, I can verify that I hear
that so frequently.
But also, I'm human and so I'malso lonely, inerrantly lonely.
Thankfully, I have good friendsin my life and good people to
connect with, and I am supergrateful for that.

(26:39):
I could always do a bit of abetter job reaching out and
connecting more often.
Yeah, it gets spun up and twoweeks goes by and I'm like, oh,
I haven't responded to that text.
Need to respond to that text.
I'm notoriously bad at that andthat loneliness is, but if we

(27:00):
recognize it in ourselves, Ithink it does poise us to
realize that other people arefeeling similarly, Because I
think the thing that holds meback, and probably holds most
people back, is assuming thatthe other person actually isn't
interested.

Gabe Whitmer (27:14):
Yeah.

Josh Zello (27:14):
Right.
It's like, oh, they probablyhave their own friend groups or
it would be awkward if I engagedthis.
Or like I haven't talked tothis person in two years.
They probably have their ownlives, probably aren't
interested in hanging out.
But if you assume the baselineis that they want to right that
there's something innate in themthat is calling out for that,

(27:36):
it makes the ask a lot easier.
I would imagine, you know likeI've never really thought about
it that way that the baseline ishey, this person is probably
dealing with loneliness just asmuch as anybody else, and the
throw the lifeline like throwthat out there.
It makes me think too.
I don't know if it was ViktorFrankl, maybe it was somebody

(27:56):
else.
I'm having trouble rememberingwho I'm getting quotes from.
I get all jumbled up.
That's because I'm gettingolder, but man it was.
Man's greatest desire is to beknown and man's greatest fear is
to be known.

Gabe Whitmer (28:13):
Yeah.

Josh Zello (28:14):
It's like our greatest desire and our greatest
fear are the same thing and Ithink that does create the
loneliness, especially internalloneliness.
If you don't have the most kinddialogue internally, that
loneliness turns to somethingquite dark.

Gabe Whitmer (28:30):
Spot on.
I love that quote, by the way,and one think about this too the
last 10 years of social mediahas really taught us that if you
don't have the same opinions,you shouldn't be friends, which
is crazy, right, because people,people like, marriages are
built on differences,friendships are built on
differences, and so we've kindof allowed pieces to to change

(28:53):
and go oh, if you're not, ifyou're not this person or this
sect of people, maybe youshouldn't hang out with this
sect of people and it it's sowrong, like it's.
You know people want to engageand they, you know they they
want they, they want to be like,they want to be seen and they
want to be able to have, havethat connection.

(29:16):
And I think you get youconfirmed it right People are
lonely in in getting to helppeople and treat people.
I get to see it as people moveand as they move to an area and
they don't know people.
And so I'm in the small men'sgroup and it's called People

(29:39):
Over Profit, right, it's calledPOP and it's great.
And there's a guy in the groupwho showed up and we were just
chatting after and he's like youknow, my wife's made a ton of
friends.
He was like I just don't really.
He was like I haven't gotten todo a lot.
I was like, well, when are wegetting a beer?
And so we set a beer for twoweeks from then and it's coming

(30:09):
up, but like it's not, you know,it's, it's, it's, that's,
that's fun, right.
Like it's um, now, and this isyour world.
Like, if you're introverted,you know, then you have to
decide how to, how, how do youcharge up for that?
Like, because you can, you know, like I can, as an extrovert, I
just fuel on that.
So like I can like rechargesitting down, yeah, but you know
.
But again, it doesn't have tomean you're having people over

(30:32):
at your house till midnight.
It doesn't mean you don't set atime and you say, hey, I'm
going to, I have an hour, can wedo this?
And you don't set a deadlinefor it.
You know there can be reallygood boundaries on creating
friendship, giving time freelyengaging people.
But yes, if the baseline iseverybody's lonely, then it's

(30:53):
not a big ask.

Josh Zello (30:54):
No, it's an easy ask .

Gabe Whitmer (30:55):
No, people are busy.
That's the other thing.
You might get someone that'slike I'd love to, but I'm really
busy.
That's probably truthful.

Josh Zello (31:02):
Well, and that speaks to our culture, right, we
value productivity overconnection, right, and that's
okay.
I mean, I'm not even shamingthat, but I think that
accentuates it.
It's like here is my innatedesire, like my greatest innate
desire, and here's anopportunity to meet it, but I
have stuff to do.
That's right.
That's right and I totallyunderstand.

(31:28):
I mean, you know, I've gotthree kids and they're all in
sports and running around allover the place At a ball field
every night doing laundry.
Absolutely yeah, laundry, goshor not doing laundry, and then
panicking when you go to find itlike jerseys finding jerseys.

Gabe Whitmer (31:43):
Where are the?

Josh Zello (31:44):
jerseysys.
Thank goodness we havemultiples.
But yeah, I think our cultureand maybe even in a more
capitalist society I guess thatit's normal is to value
productivity over everything,because I think we're taught to
some degree in that environmentthat our value is based on our

(32:04):
productivity, which is kind ofscary.
It's motivating in some sense.
But when you talk aboutconnection with people sitting
down, making friends, having aconversation, that's not the
typical productivity that we'vebeen taught to pursue, which is,
I think, another reason Iappreciate you and why I'm
excited that we're talking aboutfriendships here, because I

(32:25):
think you do this Well.
I know you have a ton on yourplate, but you're carving out
time for this stuff.
And there's a specific questionin here, like what happens if
you don't Like?
I'm sure there's been times inlife where your head's down and
then you look up a month laterand you're like I've had little

(32:46):
one-off conversations withpeople at various places, or I
have my family at the office, Ihave my family at home and,
especially as a man, whathappens to you when you don't
engage with friends?

Gabe Whitmer (32:58):
Yeah, it's a really really good question, um,
it's a really really goodquestion, um, cause that's what
happens is my line of work getsreally busy about February and
runs through December, right,and so normally what happens is
when I step back I realize I'mI'm just a little bit sad, I

(33:23):
feel like I've missed something,and I think the flip side of
that is you can overextendyourself and say, oh, I'm going
to give time freely and let'sjust schedule all this stuff,
and then you're gassed.
And so there has to be thisbalance between what your family
needs, what you need, butthere's a lot of.

(33:45):
I don't know like it fuels meto have people engage in my life
and being able to engage inpeople's lives, and so when I
don't have that, I miss it.

Josh Zello (33:56):
Yeah, well, it's like you run out of fuel.
Yeah, it's like running onfumes.
And for me, what I notice is Idialogue with myself a lot Like
my internal dialogue of selfjust goes up because I'm not
talking to anybody other than myclients and my family.
I create a friend in there thatI'm bouncing stuff up of.

(34:18):
That's not typically there.
Now, what's tough about that isour internal world is full of
critics too, and so if you slipinto a bit of a lull, a little
bit of a depression, feelingthat isolation maybe you've been
making some unhealthy decisionswith the body at the same time,
because that usually coincidesyou know that inner critic can

(34:39):
turn up and maybe even convinceyou that it would be a burden to
reach out to someone, Right?
So I hear things like that alot, but I appreciate you
answering the question Honestly.
I know it's a tough one.

Gabe Whitmer (34:53):
No, yeah, yeah, here's a question for you.
Okay, so you have what I wouldconsider one of the most
stressful jobs because you arepeople's airbag that's how I'm
going to call it right.
People slam in and you come outand make sure they're okay,
right, and I watched my dad hiswhole career and he handled it

(35:16):
really well.
But you handle it really well.
When I get stressed, I at leasthave my, my other guys I can
talk to and you know I have allthese people to bounce ideas off
of.
But, like, how do therapistshandle?
Cause you are, you're thesupport for so many people,
right?

Josh Zello (35:36):
Yeah, that's a great question, man.
It's a great question about andit speaks to something that I
really I don't know I wasconfronted with.
I talked with Julia about it, Iactually talked with my
therapist about it too, and someof the ways that I feel like
being a therapist fundamentallychanges you as a person.

(35:56):
You know you can't and it's notnecessarily what I think is
helpful to make clearNecessarily.
What I think is helpful to makeclear, both to anybody
listening and for ourconversation, is it doesn't
necessarily feel like the thingsthat I'm hearing change me.
You know I tend to do, betweenyou know, five and eight

(36:16):
sessions in a day.
I just really prefer to stay inthe zone, to move through, to
be with people, and what thatkind of intentionality does to
me does to my wiring like fiveto eight hours of very
intentional focus, showing upwith as much presence as I
possibly can, dealing with myown stuff in real time and like

(36:40):
compartmentalizing as we movealong so I can stay present and
share relevant feedback and pullideas when ideas come, and pull
quotes and pull names and alsofoster a sense of a relationship
with someone, because for me asa therapist, the relationship
is what is most fundamentallyimportant, the rapport that's

(37:02):
being built, the fit that'sgrowing between us.
How does all of that shape meand play out?
When I meet someone for thefirst time on a soccer field,
right, and my whole day is whatI just described and someone's
asking me about the weather, I'mso used to kind of being down

(37:29):
in my body, down in my mind andpresent with folks that
sometimes it's where I see it.
We don't have to go down thereall the time, but but it's like
I'm, it's, it feels sometimeslike I'm.
I've like biologically rewiredmyself to do that.
And so I was uh, that's areally funny little quip but uh,

(37:54):
on emma's soccer team there's athis uh, she's got a player
named nova who she came overfrom CFC, I think you probably
know.
Yeah, yeah, I was meeting herdad.
It was like our firstconversation ever.
It was at a practice and Ichuckled at this and he probably
thought it was the most randomthing.

(38:16):
But we wound up in an hour likegoing down this existential
landslide of an idea aboutstoicism, right, and I could
tell every once in a whilethey'd kind of look at me and
I'd look back and like yep, Iknow, I know man, it happens,
but I think that in regards tofriendships, in regards to

(38:41):
relationships, I think that'sthe sort of difficult I don't
want to call it difficulty it'snot necessarily difficulty, it's
just something else I have tobe mindful of being able to
shift gears and meet peoplewhere they're at outside of my
office.
There's definitely ways inwhich I'm affected by that
aspect of my work and then alsobeing present with what people

(39:04):
are bringing in to the work,because there is a heaviness to
it.
I don't want to say I'munaffected by it.
That is something I learnedearlier in my career.
It was actually around anelection.
I got into the field rightaround an election time like
people bringing in a lot offeelings around that and I.

(39:27):
There's something about thatperiod of time where I realized
I'm not going to make that, I'mnot going to make it as a
therapist if I can't trustpeople and so a big part of
things.
Maybe this is something evenyour your dad, I'm assuming is
recognized, because he seemslike a pretty chill guy for
having done this for so long.
If I don't trust my clients todo the work on their own, if I

(39:52):
don't trust them with theirlives, if I don't trust them.
To be honest with me, I willcarry everything around with me
all at once.
I have to be able to hand itback to you after while you're
leaving the session.
You know I have to trust thatyou walked in here with this and
you could hold it.
Hopefully it's a little bitlighter leaving, but you're

(40:13):
you're you're going to have tohold that too and I hold space
for it to return.
You know, that's kind of how Iview it.

Gabe Whitmer (40:19):
I like that.
It's just triggered a thoughtand and I and I wish my dad
could be here to share this realquick, quick story he was
working at a child psych wardand they were short-staffed.
Chaos broke out and one kid gotout and ran away.

(40:41):
This was like 48 years ago,right, 45 years ago.
He's freaked out and he, hefinally gets everything settled
down hours later and he, hecalls his boss and he's like you
know, I just don't know what todo.
And his boss is like listen,milt, next time everything seems
like it's going wrong, I justwant you to go lock yourself in

(41:03):
a closet for 10 minutes anddon't come out.
And my dad was like what?
He was like it's going to catchon fire, the kids are going to
explode.
And he was like well, if youdon't do it, I'm going to fire
you.
And my dad's like 22 at thatpoint, right, he's like
finishing a master's degree.

(41:27):
And so the very next night,short-staffed, something happens
and the other thing his bosssaid is you have to announce it.
And so he walks out and he goes.
I'm going in the closet for 10minutes and like walks in and
he's like literally like shaking, like he's watching his watch
and it hits 10 minutes and hewalks out ready to put fires out
and the kids are sitting thereand they're playing and

(41:49):
everything's calmed down.
I say this as a parentsometimes, but sometimes I have
to remember it's going to playout okay.
We can't control our clients.
We can't control people.
We can give them the tools, wecan care about them, but we

(42:10):
can't own their stuff.
That story sticks in me dailywhere it's like I can only help
guide people.
I can't make them.

Josh Zello (42:20):
That's influence right.

Gabe Whitmer (42:21):
Yeah.

Josh Zello (42:22):
And you can influence a situation, but you
certainly don't control it right.
And I think, man, okay, thisties into friendships really
well, because I've had reallylong-term friends.
But I think one of the reasonsthat I've that's worked is
because there's an acceptance onmy part and on their part that,

(42:44):
like friendships wax and wane.
There are seasons of life whereyou can be really close to one
another and then there areseasons of life where you're
spending less time, maybethere's more literal distance.
I can't control how availablesomeone else is for me or not,
and if they are or are notavailable for me and I am

(43:06):
available for them or not, thatactually doesn't have to mean
anything.
That doesn't have to mean thatthey don't like me or that I
don't like them or that ourfriendship is over.
It just means that it's waned abit.

Gabe Whitmer (43:18):
Yeah, so my best friend since second grade is
Chris Chaney.
We own a series of coffee shopsin the Upper Peninsula together
, right so like.
But I remember he, I was afreshman in high school, we were
inseparable, and I called himand I was like, hey, I'm not
going back out for football.

(43:38):
And he was like, okay, and so Iflipped to basketball full time
.
He, he ran football and he gotsuper involved in his youth
group.
I got super involved in my youthgroup and like a couple years
went by, where you know we're,we sit together at lunch but
like we weren't hanging outoutside.
We were right, it was casualand senior year kind of came

(44:00):
back and then a couple yearsinto college kind of came back.
And then a couple years intocollege kind of came back and it
was an intentionality to checkon each other.
And then he got married.
I was his best man, I gotmarried, he was my best man.
Some years I see him a lot,some years I don't, and we run a
business together.
But we talk business when wetalk typically.

(44:21):
But it was super cool.
We were in Detroit, we went to aLions and a Red Wings game and
I knew he was in Cleveland for aBrowns-Chiefs game and I had
messaged him and, anyway, longstory short, he was like, hey,
I'm walking through security nowLet me call you later.
I was like what security?

(44:42):
And he was like Detroit.
And I was like, look up.
And he walked through andlooked up and his son and him
were there and Caitlin and Iwere there.
We're like what?
That's amazing.
But yeah, friendships to kind ofcome full circle, I think
that's.
It's funny to me if somebodysays a friendship stopped
because I don't know what wouldstop a friendship.

(45:05):
If I have a need, I try toreach out and say, hey, would
you help me with this?
And that takes somecommunication and it takes some
willingness.
Or, hey, I miss you, can we seta call?
It can be a couple weeks fromnow.
But I think friendship doesn'tmean you're together right Like
the show Friends.
We don't live in that world.
Should you be able to pick upand just enjoy the friend you

(45:30):
have, absolutely.
And so that's going to come andgo a little bit.

Josh Zello (45:35):
Yeah, and I think we have to have an acceptance of
that in order to have long-term,to have those long-term
friendships, have long-term,yeah, to have those long-term
friendships.
Um, I I'm I'm curious too, man,what is, I think, especially
with adult friendships like,let's say, someone's in their
mid-30s, late 30s, early 40strying to trying to amass a few

(45:59):
more friends, which is actuallysomething that I hear about
really regularly?
I think there's some confusionfor people on when someone moves
from, like, acquaintancecategory into friend category.
Like what, from yourperspective if you need to take
a little time to think about ittoo, what tips the scales for

(46:20):
you from someone being anacquaintance and someone that
you're friendly with, kind withum, to like moving into the
friend category, maybe a littlemore trustworthy, maybe a little
more desire in you to spendtime with him?
But I like, what are some ofthe things that you think?
Yeah, this, this is usuallywhat tips it over into

(46:43):
friendship for me, so really,yeah, that's a great, it's
interesting.

Gabe Whitmer (46:50):
As you were, you're kind of asking the
question.
I think there's a couple ofthings.
One I think I automaticallyassume everybody's my friend and
it.
Maybe that served me well,maybe it hasn't.
And if I end up sharingsomething that's personal and it
it goes the wrong way, I justaccept that the friendships not
quite what I thought, right Likeit's.

(47:11):
I've just learned I'm not goingto take it personal, it's just
not what I thought.
And that doesn't mean I don'tlike the person.
It doesn't mean we don't hangout, but I think I just
automatically kind of dive in.
Some neighbors moved fromChicago into the neighborhood
and we'd hung out with them oncewalking the neighborhood.

(47:34):
Our kids are the same age andthey're like you want to come
over, and so we went over andhad a glass of wine.
They're showing us the houseand we're like 30 minutes in and
I just blurted out somethingfunny and inappropriate at the
same time and they burst outlaughing and I said, look,
there's this test, and if Idon't know where we're going,

(47:57):
I'd rather learn early if I needto be super sensitive to
something or not.
And he brings this up every twoor three times we hang out
because he'll be telling someoneand he's like Gabe told this
joke and he uses it as abarometer and obviously we
passed the test.
But it is kind of true, like Idon't, I must, I'm going to

(48:21):
assume everyone's my friend andif it, sometimes it doesn't work
out how I planned.
But I'd rather set the barwhere, where I think, and maybe
that's like that wholeheartedjump in, um, it served me fairly
well yeah.

Josh Zello (48:38):
Um.
Well, to be truthful, I likethat and I think that there's
potential pain that can comefrom that.
Right, you're making yourselfpretty vulnerable out of the
gate in that assumption.
However, I think the pain ofwondering about the status of a
friendship across all platformsis much worse than the potential

(49:07):
of occasionally getting hurt bysomeone, the mental torture of
wondering are we friends, are wenot friends?
Does this person appreciate me?
Does this person value me ornot?
It's just like I'm going toblanket assume that until I'm
shown otherwise and then I canreshuffle where this person
belongs in my life.
I think that I can see where,in certain circumstances, it

(49:30):
makes you vulnerable, but on theother hand, I think it actually
saves you from a significantamount of mental torture, and
maybe that's why you're soapproachable.
It's just like that sort ofbaseline assumption.

Gabe Whitmer (49:45):
I will tell you.
What can get me in trouble isI'm a pretty well one we haven't
talked about this and we can,but I'm very competitive.
So there's this hum, there'sthis like I want to be humble, I
want to be approachable, butI'm super competitive.
But I'm I'm also a hugeprankster.
I can get myself in a lot oftrouble because I'll I'll cross
lines in the name of being funny.

(50:06):
Uh, so I have a neighbor whoI'm hoping doesn't listen to
this huge clemson fan.
I'm a huge, huge Ohio State fan.
When he goes on vacation, I amreplacing his Clemson flags with
Ohio State flags.
Right, Very minor.
He will come home, he willlaugh and he'll text me a ransom
or he'll light it on fire, LikeI don't.
It'll be funny and that's likethe low level.
But we've several times snuckinto people's yards, put

(50:33):
inflatable, inappropriateinflatable blow-ups and, like
for Halloween, there's these twoskeletons that when the wind's
not moving they're just sitting,but when the wind's moving
they're inappropriate.

Josh Zello (50:42):
They're dancing.

Gabe Whitmer (50:43):
And the whole neighborhood knows about it.
You have to gauge sometimes,like how will these people feel
about it, and so a lot of times,like that's one of my love
languages, If I'm pranking you,you're up there right on my
friend scale.
But I've got to alsoacknowledge there's a lot of
people, especially as adults,that don't like that.
I do play the internal game ofam I crossing a line?

(51:05):
Because I don't know howthey'll feel, and if I think in
any way it's going to be bad, Ijust I don't do it and I don't
know.
So there's still.
There's still.
There's still the conversationof like should I do this?
But if I just assume everyone'sgoing to be my friend and they
want to be my friend.

Josh Zello (51:24):
I think that's a safe baseline assumption, man,
until proven otherwise.
And you're hitting on a reallyimportant point here too.
I mean, friendship andrelationships are a dance.
We can think about yourskeletons.
We're kind of always lipnesstesting each other.
I mean, it's been months sinceyou and I sat down and had a

(51:48):
serious conversation.
Right, there's a new you infront of me in some way,
honestly, and I have to not justassume that you're the Gabe
from 10 years ago.
I have to get curious.
I want to know you in thismoment and what the last few
months have looked like.
And I can ask that directly or,like we've done.
I can turn that into aconversation, you can turn that

(52:10):
into a conversation with me.
That's just a little bit moreorganic than how's the last 10?
Well, how's the last 10 yearsbeen if I hadn't seen you in 10
years?
But how's the last few monthsbeen?
It's like well, tell me aboutyou.
You know like.
And that's where I again I haveto.
That's my dance with people isbecause I can, because of what I
do, I can kind of go straightinto that territory a little too

(52:33):
quick.
There's a, there's a dancethere, and I mean like there is
with anything in life same withmarriages.

Gabe Whitmer (52:45):
Well, and I'm glad you said marriages.
So you know you aren't who youwere when you married Julia and
and we all, yeah, right, and andit's so one.
So one of my close friends'grandpas got up at his wedding
and he was like I've beenmarried 52 years.
I'm not who I was when Imarried your grandma, dan right,
and he went on.

(53:06):
He was, like you know, fiveyears in I had enlisted and
da-da-da, and 10 years in shegot into quilting and I didn't
care about quilts, but you knowhe was like I learned to enjoy
what she learned to enjoy andshe learned to enjoy what I
learned to enjoy.
And every couple of years wewould look up and go man, our
interests have changed and for,like Caitlin and I, and for you

(53:30):
and Julia, I don't know if youwould have convinced me 10 years
ago that being at the ballfield every single night was
enjoyable and if that was seenas fun.
But now I've found a way tomake it fun and I love watching
my kids play sports, but I don'tnecessarily love sitting there
from a distance watching them ata practice that I can't see.

(53:51):
But I've made it fun.
And if I get to have Caitlinwith me, we'll pour a glass from
a distance, watching them at apractice that I can't see, but
I've made it fun and if I get tohave Caitlin with me, we get to
pour a glass of wine and sit inthe truck bed and we just find
ways to do that.
Friendship is like that where,like Silas' soccer coach is into
Legos, silas is into Legos.
I'm not that big of a Lego guybut I can talk it and I can

(54:12):
enjoy it and I can look up coolvideos and you know, it's okay
to go down some like, hey, thatmay not be what I like, but I'm
going to find a way to learnabout it.
Like, I'm going to find a wayto engage in it.
And maybe that's just whatmakes some people a bad friend
is they don't engage insomething they don't know about.

(54:33):
I don't have tattoos.
I love tattoos.
I don't have tattoos.
Some friends who have them wantto talk about them.
So I like, I'll look updifferent types and you know,
like, hey, I learned something.
Am I going to get tattoos?
Probably not, but I love thatthey have them.
I think that's the dance ofbeing willing to acknowledge

(54:55):
that people change and you cangrow together, you can grow
apart, and I have some friendsthat probably have some problems
in life and it doesn't mean I'mnot their friend.
I still show up, I still engage, I love to be around them.

Josh Zello (55:13):
You know, you ride that wave of people and in that
way and I think it's importantto hit on to just in
relationships, marriage, kids,uh, friendships is, and work
relationships, I I think one ofthe things that tips someone
into the inner circle, let's,let's assume everyone's friends.

(55:34):
Yeah Right, I like thatbaseline, I want to start using
that.
And there are people that tipinto the inner circle.
Right that they're close,that's right.
They're like in your life.

Gabe Whitmer (55:45):
They know where the bodies are buried, right.

Josh Zello (55:46):
That's it.
I think what causes that tip,for me at least, is there are
subtle natural ways in which therelationship starts feeling
reciprocal.

Gabe Whitmer (55:57):
Yeah.

Josh Zello (55:57):
So we just start showing up for each other.
It's almost there is an ask,but at the same time it's like
someone kind of has a read andjust knows, kind of knows when
to show up.
Yeah, same.
And then vice versa.
There's this sort ofreciprocation and maybe an
interpersonal piggy bank.
I had a supervisor that told meabout this and she said, josh,

(56:21):
there's an interpersonal piggybank between all people and you
know, you can make deposits inthat and you can make
withdrawals.
And an important part to knowabout friendships, about
relationships with your clients,about relationships with anyone
, is if you ever plan on makinga withdrawal, you should make

(56:43):
sure that you make deposits.
And a withdrawal could be adifficult conversation.
It could be showing up a bigask like can you guys show up
for half a day and help us moveall our stuff into a new house?
That's a bit of a withdrawal,but I want to make sure we're
putting things in it.
And sometimes we can tell whensomeone needs to withdraw out of
it, but they're not asking andso we just give yeah, right.

(57:04):
I think that's the moment thatpeople start tipping it.
The bank starts building, likethe account starts building, you
know.

Gabe Whitmer (57:12):
So I, the bank, starts building, like the
account starts building, youknow, so that I think that's out
of his needs her needs the lovebank.

Josh Zello (57:17):
Oh, I think, yeah, yes, it is Okay, got you.

Gabe Whitmer (57:19):
And it's a book on marriage.
But again, if, if you viewmarriage as relational and
friendship, right Then.
But I love what you said, likeit's true, right, and I don't
know.
Also, I don't know, I think Ican, I think this is PC, I think
I can say this Kind of grew upto where, like if guys checked

(57:40):
in on each other, they'd be like, oh you're stupid, right.

Josh Zello (57:44):
It's so crazy, it's so crazy to me, like now.

Gabe Whitmer (57:48):
I'm like I don you having a good day.
Sometimes I was just like, yep,you good.
And some days they're like, hey, you have time to hop on a call
.
But the check was really easyand it's the reciprocation of it
doesn't have to be.
You don't have to do that everyday, you don't have to do that
every week.
Giving touch points is just aneasy thing.

(58:10):
We do it with our kids, we doit with our marriage.
You don't have to do it on thesame level, but you know, if
you're thinking of someone,shoot them a quick text speaking
of kids, I feel like havingkids has actually made me a
better friend in a lot of ways.

Josh Zello (58:24):
You actually hit on this of almost requiring
yourself to be interested inwhat your kids are interested in
, and there's and and showing upto the baseball field night
after night after night afternight.
That's a gift to your kids andit cycles back to what we said
at the beginning of the podcastis, when you give, you actually

(58:46):
realize who you are.
And, oh my goodness, have Irealized who I am in becoming a
father man.
As I give to my kids, sometimesselflessly, sometimes
begrudgingly.
It's not always rainbows andsunshine.
I think what that's allowed meto do is have a lot more

(59:07):
patience with people in general,including with friends.
It's like, well, you'reinterested in this thing, man,
my son's really interested inRoman history.
Avid is my oldest.
He could go for like an hour onthe Romans and I'm like, uh-huh
, I'm like interested, I'm likeinterested for like the first 12
minutes and he knows it.

(59:27):
Like I'm trying, we're here,I'll pull up Google and we'll
Google.
And he's like, dad, what aboutthis?
I'm googling, you know, we're,we're with it and that's not.
That's not something I sat downand intended to do right, but I
I'm developing a bit of afriendship with my kids at the
same time.
Like the principles still apply, and for me I want my kids to

(59:49):
feel that from me.
It's teaching me, and then Ithink the same stuff gets
overlaid in my friendships insome way.
And then it's vice versa too.
I think my friends also teachme how to be a good father.

Gabe Whitmer (01:00:01):
Have you found that middle school also teaches
you how to be a good friend,like?
It's like?
I'm watching my daughter.
She's always had a consistentgroup.
They're shifting right, friendsare coming in and friends are
kind of leaving.
And I've had to say the samething to her.
I say, just because so-and-sois not talking, because you're
not in a class right now, itdoesn't mean they're not a
friend.

(01:00:22):
And you also learn in watchingsixth and seventh grade.
Maybe we don't have to talk asmuch about people.
I find that a lot If a friendis have to talk as much about
people, right, like, like.
I find that a lot is like ifpeople, if a friend is trying to
talk about another friend, I'mlike, hey, what you talk to them
, like.
But I don't really want toengage in it and if there's a

(01:00:44):
problem I'll I'll referee alittle bit and help.
But that like sixth and seventhand freshman, like that kind of
early where they want to talkabout each other, what, what
good is that?
Right, what's it?

Josh Zello (01:00:56):
do, it doesn't do.

Gabe Whitmer (01:00:58):
No, it doesn't Going straight to a person.

Josh Zello (01:01:02):
You know that while teaching a kid that early and
yeah, absolutely Like middleschool is is is the wild west
socially, you and and, and and.
In our, in our kids school I'dprobably do this in yours too
every quarter they're, like youknow, switching classes,
switching schedules, and thenevery year they might get put in

(01:01:26):
a different type pod and thenthey don't see the same people.
So there's this shufflingaround for them, and, yeah, they
are.
So they're also at the agewhere they're becoming just a
little more self self aware ofhow people are and they're also
developing personalities andthey can get annoyed.
Yeah, before it was kind of theyjust get angry, right?

(01:01:48):
Kids zero to 100.
And just you know, it was justanger or it's just like high
levels of frustration and cryingand weeping and gnashing of
teeth.
Well, by the time they hitmiddle school, they have these
sort of sub-level emotionsbefore they hit like full-blown
anger.
Right, it's like annoyance,irritated, upset, sad, hurt.

(01:02:11):
The spectrum is growing, right.
So to teach them hey, you cancommunicate those emotions to
another person or you can justcommunicate to another person
what's actually going on and getclarification and figure that
out.
You don't have to, like talk toeach other about another person
that's getting under your skin.
Yeah, gosh, that's so importantfor friendships too.

(01:02:33):
But especially at that age andI think you're hitting on a
point that's worth acknowledgingtoo I think the principles that
we're talking about, the ideaswe're talking about, they
definitely apply broadly.
But some of the limitations ofour conversation is, I think
sometimes female friendships aredifferent, you know, and so I

(01:02:55):
don't know that I necessarilyhave a lot to contribute to that
, but I think it's important foranybody listening just to
acknowledge relationships indifferent groups also have
nuances, right, and someone'sexperience of relationships
could differ vastly from whatwe're talking about right now,
and also the recognition thatsometimes trauma and past hurt

(01:03:15):
are tied up in attachment withinfriendships.
But I still I do believe thethings that we're talking about
broadly are definitely helpful.
I'm curious man.
I want to be respectful of yourtime too.

Gabe Whitmer (01:03:29):
Are we at an hour?

Josh Zello (01:03:30):
Well, we've been plugging it in for an hour and
15 minutes, I like it.
So I want to be respectful ofyour time, but I'm curious.
I know this is.
I think this is a good questionto start to move towards the
end with.
In what ways do you feel likeyour friends have shaped you to
become who you are now?

(01:03:52):
Maybe it's just a story, maybeit's an idea, maybe it's a
feeling, but what comes up forthat question?

Gabe Whitmer (01:03:59):
So let me say this I don't think friendship is
defined by age.
And so in the last couple yearsthere's two guys, one kind of
high-level C-suite oil exec,retired.
He's become a little bit of amentor for me.
And then I have a guy who'sabout to retire and I just enjoy

(01:04:23):
their friendship and they'reprobably 30 to 45 years older
than me.
So that's been kind of a coolthing.
The last couple years.
My best friend, chris Chaney youheard about him earlier coffee
shops.
I did a lot of traveling withhim and his family on vacations.
He was an only child and hisdad.

(01:04:45):
We'd get up and see if Chriswould want to go grab breakfast.
He'd still be asleep and sowe'd go and eat at the hotel
breakfast and he would just sitthere and talk to me about
business or life or the city wewere in, and it's kind of that
perspective.
Friendships are broad and theycan carry different ages,

(01:05:09):
different thoughts, differentideas.
If you've ever heard the song Ithink Ben Rector sings it, but
Old Friends it basically talksabout how you can't just make
old friends.

Josh Zello (01:05:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.

Gabe Whitmer (01:05:25):
And so I have my group from high school and
they're great.
We have the group from college.
We have the group from college,we have the group now and just
showing like all of that, when Ilook at it just showing up
right, um, I've had buddies,houses burned down, I've had

(01:05:47):
people lose their wives, we'vehad right, we've all seen
divorces and just being able tobe able to answer the phone and
you know, kind of been a keytheme.

Josh Zello (01:05:59):
Shown up for you, taken time for you, mentored you
and been there for you in somany ways Shapes, yeah, shapes

(01:06:20):
how you do life.
Yeah, shapes the perspective,shapes how you, and that,
honestly, might be why some ofyour perspective, which I really
appreciated today, that thebaseline is.
You know, everybody wants to bemy friend and I'm going to
assume that that's the case.
Maybe that perspective comesfrom all these friends that
you've had throughout the years.
And, yeah, friends definitelyshape perspective.

(01:06:43):
I know you shaped mine.
You know, and hopefully we'reshaping each other's with the
conversation you know what Imean and spreading a little love
out to the universe at the sametime, cool.
Well, man, any other thoughtsor questions come up for you, or
anything here at the end thatyou feel like you want to throw
out there in regards tofriendships?

Gabe Whitmer (01:07:04):
No, so I do think this is a funny, you know,
because we started talking aboutbeing on your deck, right,
that's how we started.
Because we started talkingabout being on your deck, that's
how we started.
We've had a lot of ourdaughter's soccer teams in a
wrangle.
Now Players change clubs.
I'll leave everybody with this.

(01:07:25):
I got a call from one of myfriends that went from our club
to your club.
He was like man, you weren'tjoking.
That Josh guy is just as chillas can be, and I was like he can
be and they were like man.
He's like Zen and it was funnybecause it's somebody that's
very loud and can be loud and Ican be loud and I was laughing.

(01:07:47):
I was like you'll get him atone point being loud, catch me
on the roof.
But he was like man, he's agreat guy, get him at one point.
Just, you'll get him at onepoint being loud, but catch me
on, you know.
But it, you know, it was very.
He was like man, he's a greatguy and, um, I don't know, we,
you, you have such an ability totouch people's lives and I
appreciate that oh man, thankskid, yeah, thanks.

Josh Zello (01:08:09):
Yeah, I appreciate.
I appreciate that encouragement.
Take it in I.
I've been working on that thelast 10 years, trying to
actually take in encouragement.
I appreciate that for sure andthe feelings super mutual.
Thanks for the time bud.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Also, is there anything as faras where people can find you?

(01:08:31):
I'd like to say take a secondplug yourself.

Gabe Whitmer (01:08:35):
So, yeah, listen, I will always hop on a call and
talk to everybody about ideas orthoughts or business ideas.
So like my cell's easy423-584-5155,.
Right, so that's one.
So you can also like WhitmerW-H-I-T-M-E-R teamcom Whitmer

(01:08:57):
team.
That's our mortgage landingpage.
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If you are in the UpperPeninsula, which is if you've
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(01:09:17):
I was ice fishing, I was a wuss, I sat in the tent the whole
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Ultimately, I want to againwant to try to be as accessible
as I can for people and be aresource, and I'm happy to be.

(01:09:39):
Awesome man, happy to be.

Josh Zello (01:09:41):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, Gabe.

Gabe Whitmer (01:09:42):
Yeah, thanks for having me.