279 - What If The Bravest Thing Is To Keep Showing Up? - The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for tuning inagain this week.
I sincerely appreciate it.
And I I know every week I'm veryexcited, but this week I am
tremendously excited about ourguest and our conversation
today.
Been trying for a couple ofactually a few months probably
to get him onto the onto theshow.

(01:24):
And we finally have him herenow.
But before I introduce him andwe get into our conversation and
our topic, I just want to remindyou to visit thedivorced
advocate.com.
Check out all the resources wehave for you guys, including the
divorce quiz, which is going togive you a great gauge of where
you're at in your divorcecompared to thousands of others

(01:45):
who have gone through it.
You'll get some immediateresults in your inbox that'll
help you make that decision andor analyze where you're at.
But then you'll also have theopportunity for us to review
that and talk about what's goingwell and what you can work on.
So check that out and all theother resources at
thedivorcedadvocate.com.

(02:07):
Okay, my guest today describeshimself as having been, quote
unquote, that kid.
You know, the one he broke rulesfor the fun of it and rebelled
hard against his parents.
In his own life, he's had manyseasons of feeling aimless,
confused, and even hopelessabout the direction he was

(02:28):
headed.
After a big interruption inlife, he realized his true
passion, having meaningfulconversations and helping people
find their path.
He has since made it his life'swork to help tweens and teens
navigate the difficult path ofadolescence, helping them make
better decisions and takeownership of their journey.

(02:49):
Please welcome Palmer Skinesky.

SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
Palmer, how are you doing?
Doing great, Mr.
Jude.
Thank you so much for stickingwith me and making the
scheduling happen.
I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
Yeah, well, you're a busy, busy young man with a new
family and school and work andeverything.
You're there's very few peopleas busy as I am, but I think
you're probably one of them,your mom as well.
And I I did want to I wanted togive the audience some
background about how I know you.
And you might not even know someof this, but I met your mom 13

(03:23):
years ago.
Uh, and and Palmer's mom is uhalso a licensed family and
marriage therapist, and she wasrunning parenting, love and
logic parenting classes, as amatter of fact.
So I met her 13 years ago when Iwas going through my divorce,
and I took one of her love andlogic parenting classes.
And since I've taken, I think,another two or three of them.

(03:45):
And so I just think the workthat she has done over the years
is absolutely tremendous aswell.
And now I know that you guys areare working together.
So so I've actually known yourmom for about 12, 13, 13 years
now, uh, which would have putyou like kind of in the years
where what we're gonna talkabout today, right?
And and and kind of on in kindof your journey.

(04:08):
So tell us to start, tell us alittle bit about yourself, and
then we're gonna jump in alittle bit about the work that
that you and you and your momare doing and the program that
you've created.

SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
Yeah, well, I love it.
I was thinking back 12 or 13years would have been a season
of life where it was about asbad as it could be.
And I imagine if you had askedher then, if her and I would be
doing what we're doing now, andif I would be in the position
I'm in now, I am sure she wouldhave just laughed and thought
you were talking about analternate universe where it's
the complete opposite because itwas not good then.

(04:40):
And so I'm sure we'll get there,but to kind of share that for
myself.

SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
Yeah, I remember her talking glowingly about her
family and her and and and herand her children through all of
the all of the classes, and shewould share, and so she is
really the consummateprofessional in her she and in
how she handled herself becauseI I've knowing now, right, uh
what was what we what she wasgoing through, and and I've I've

(05:08):
learned a little bit more.
I've also had the opportunity tolisten to you and her talk.
You guys do a talkingengagement.
I've actually had my daughtersgo to the parent information
network at the the schooldistrict, and they've listened
to you and and her do yourpresentation together.
So, but knowing that's amazingthat story now and looking back,
it's just remarkable uh the thethe professional that she is and

(05:31):
the and the work that she'sdone.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Yeah, no, I mean I think that's one of the things
I'm sure we'll get to.
But I think it's that heart shehad that even in the worst of
it, when I was saying thingsthat no parent should ever hear
from their kid, she was stillseeing us with a lens of love
and compassion and reallybrought that same energy home.
Obviously, you know, probably alittle bit less nice to us than
she was with people taking herparenting classes, but that
would be to be expected, I wouldsay.

(05:55):
But yeah.
So now I I mean, there'sobviously so many answers to
that question.
But in the context of getting tosupport kiddos and families, I
spent all about 10 years of mychildhood going through really
high conflict divorce between mymom and my dad.
And you know, at first it wasn'tanything particularly crazy, but
it got to the point where it wasso challenging and it was so

(06:17):
hard between myself and myparents, and particularly my
dad, brought me in as sort ofhis targeted child.
And the way that I saw my momwas so aggressive and so
intense, and it drove me to justthe darkest places a person can
go where at any one day I wasnot sure if I'd make it through
the next day or if I was goingto end up killing myself.
And that was just such a bigpart of my story then, which now

(06:37):
was what it feels like work nowbecause hopefully most kids are
in that position.
But there's just such a painthat comes with divorce, and
honestly, I think just acomplicatedness to navigating
the teen years that I now get totry to be the person that I wish
I had when I was going throughthose years.
Because whether it's trying togo from bad to good or good to
amazing, I think there's so muchroom to grow in life, and it
makes me so happy to get towatch kiddos do that.

SPEAKER_00 (07:00):
Yeah.
And so now you're how old?
Twenty-seven.
Twenty-seven.
And you're a candidate for beinga licensed family and marriage
therapist, correct?
Yes, yes, indeed.

SPEAKER_01 (07:12):
Okay.
I finished at Northwestern inthis past June.
I've been doing work with kiddosthe last five years now.

SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
Okay.
And so, like at the the introsaid, you went through these
difficult and challenges, timechallenging times.
And I I think you're we maybewe'll touch on it.
It it depends, but you had somesome significance, some
significant stuff go on and somesignificant issues in your teen
years when you were goingthrough that.

(07:41):
Talk to us a little bit aboutthat, because I just want to, I
what I would like the audienceto be impressed upon, or what I
would like to impress upon theaudience is where you were, what
you were doing in those teenyears, and the relationship that
you had that you alluded to withyour with your mom and dad, and
now how it's come to just, Idon't want to say full circle,

(08:02):
but it's come to the point whereyou're doing the work, and we're
gonna talk about the programthat your mom and and you have
put together.
You're doing this work to helpqueens and teens, which is
absolutely remarkable.
Take us a little bit throughthat kind of that journey,
please.

SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Yeah, of course.
It's trying to think how tocapture that without burning up
our entire time together.

SPEAKER_00 (08:21):
Yeah, we've only got 53 minutes left.

SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
Yeah, perfect, perfect to capture it all.
Yeah, I think if I go back tothe parts that usually seem to
rise up when I think on thisstory, is I was eight or nine
when my parents got divorced.
And at the time, I didn't knownecessarily the full extent of
that, but I definitelyunderstood the weight because
even at that age, I was startingto talk about wanting to hurt

(08:44):
myself.
And I would just talk about, Iwould, you know, I would want to
hurt myself, but in ways thatdidn't necessarily make sense.
I would talk about wanting toput myself in the oven and do
these other, you know, kind oflike morbid things.
And looking back now, I justfeel so sad because clearly it
was just a kid that was in somuch pain that was just trying
to take on the weight of hisparents' marriage and the
conflict that was going on, andthat was just never going to be

(09:05):
sustainable.
And so that was kind of a Iwould say the suicide piece or
suicidality piece was so such aconsistent theme through many,
many years of my life.
And I would say from eight totwelve or thirteen, the
progression between my parentsbuilt.
My dad, he is my dad, I stilllove him, but there are still
significant challenges there andbarriers between the two of us.
So at the time I never realizedthat.

(09:26):
But he was what I think we wouldprobably call a pretty severe
alienator, where I was histargeted child, my mom was the
targeted parent, and he woulduse me as a weapon against her.
And he would not be the personthat you would ever think is
some big alienator.
And even to this day, I don'tnecessarily hold him fully
accountable.
And so as I talk about it, Ijust want to do so with a level

(09:47):
of grace and compassion for whatdrove him to have the challenges
that he did.
But for many years, my gradesstarted to decline.
And I have got a foldersomewhere in my office where it
is essentially the Palmer Funfolder where it's all my
suspensions, my detentions, myreport cards that were C's, D,
sometimes F's, where it wasnothing in there that would
indicate anything but a prettygrim future for a kid.

(10:08):
And so for many years, my dadwould fill our heads with
narratives of, you know, angerand it was very subtle towards
my mom.
But that would drive me towanting to hurt myself or kill
myself.
I honestly think more days thanI didn't.
I think that I spent more nightsin bed wanting to escape the
pain than I did feeling anysense of excitement or freedom

(10:29):
towards life.
And I just felt alone.
I just I never had anyone turntowards.
My mom was just swept up in thedivorce doing what she could to
survive this consistent barragefor my dad.
And my dad was using me.
And so while I, you know, maybefelt like he was in theory or on
paper there for me, it reallywasn't.
I was there for him when heneeded me to be there for him.

(10:50):
I was kind of forced to carryhis emotions, and so it was just
a lot of years of being a scaredkid who didn't have anyone to
turn to and try to figure it outon their own.
And I think a 10-year-old,12-year-old trying to figure out
all of that by themselves is notgonna go well.
And it didn't.
Very, very clearly did not gowell.

SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
Yeah.
And I had go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 (11:11):
Yeah, go ahead.
I got I was gonna jump into thepiece of kind of where that all
intersected, which is wherethings really changed for me.
And that's when I was 15 yearsold.
My dad ended up losing he was ona bunch of different contempt
charges for no contact orders,non-disparagement clauses, and
just kept breezing through thosebecause he believed that he was
fighting the good fight,standing up for us, but

(11:32):
ultimately it was his own agendabeing served for his own, you
know, whatever the reasons maybe.
And he ended up losing custody.
It was at first supervised, andthen it was no custody at all.
But he would do things, youknow, like bias burner phones,
he would meet us on the way toschool and kind of have us go
down, truly go down alleyways totalk and to meet us and we
continue to encourage us to meethim where he was at and the

(11:53):
narrative and the world that thestory that he was telling.
And then it got so bad to thepoint that I I wanted, I I had
no love for my mom.
My life felt like it had to beone without her because I saw
her as such a threat to myphysical and mental safety that
there was times where I reallydid wish she was no longer alive
because my brain was like itcannot comprehend the damage and

(12:15):
evil she's caused based off whatmy dad had told me.
And as a kid, I just didn'tunderstand I didn't know how to
sift through the noise.
And so he ended up being sent tojail by the judge.
And then a couple days later, Iwas sent away to a treatment
center where I was gone for thefirst place was seven or first
place was five weeks, and thesecond place was seven weeks.
And that was essentially to tryand get me a fresh start to
catch my breath, to remove mefrom the system I was in and see

(12:37):
if maybe there was still a kidinside of there that could be
saved from the pain that he wasput through.
I would say that was a prettybig turning point that led me to
where I am.

SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
And I know that a lot of thedads that are listening are
dealing with with alienation.
And I like I mentioned to you,it's probably one of the top two
or three things that guys cometo the community looking for
some support around.
And and we and we talk indetail.
I don't know we're gonna we'renot gonna get into the clinical

(13:06):
side of stuff of what thealienator's doing and what their
mental state is and how theytruly believe what they're doing
is is is right, and and how youas a as a as a kid are are
protecting yourself in in youknow in in distancing yourself
from the alienated parent.
We're not gonna get into that,but but you do have a really
powerful quote on on your sitethat says the single most

(13:30):
important factor in myadjustment was how safe or
unsafe they made me feel aboutloving both of them.
Can can you unpack that for me alittle bit?
And what is making a child safefeels unsafe to love both
parents actually look or soundlike?

SPEAKER_01 (13:47):
Yeah, I mean that's definitely a great one to
highlight.
It's such a sad question thatthat's in consideration, but and
parents so often would neverthink that that's what's on the
table.
And I was gonna give an ad tolike my dad would say the words,
I hope you boys love your mom.
And then they would turn, andthen in the same sentence, he
would also say, but she's eviland trying to put me in jail,
and she's the reason that thisperson was killed and would go

(14:09):
down this whole other path.
And so it's such a challengingthing for my brain to
comprehend.
But in the terms of thatspecific quote, I think that the
way that a parent can make a kidfeel unsafe to love both parents
is if they do things along thoselines, but even more subtly, a
lot of the time, where theyimply that the other parent has
wronged them, that they've donesomething wrong to the kid, or

(14:30):
but by the other kid loving theother parent, it might be
offensive or it might be hardfor the other parent to hold.
And sometimes parents will, youknow, a kid will come home from
a visit and they'll be like, Ihad such a fun time with mom or
dad or whoever the parent is.
And they'll be like, oh, oh,like how'd they, how'd they pay
for that?
What'd they do?
I didn't know they were gonnatry and do that with you.
I thought we were gonna do thattogether.
And they'll just do these subtlelittle things that sort of

(14:51):
convince the kid's brain that,oh, I shouldn't talk about my
love or the connection I havewith the other parent because it
makes the parent I'm with rightnow maybe dysregulated.
Maybe my attachment becomesinsecure with them, maybe they
don't pour into me the way thatI'd want them to, with big warm
open arms.
And so it's just little thingsthat to a kid essentially says,
I shouldn't talk about the loveI have for the other half of my

(15:13):
parental unit, which, as you canimagine, is very unnatural for
us to do.

SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
Right.
And and so I I guess the themessage to to the parents that
are being alienated, which whicha lot of them are are listening,
is no matter how difficult andchallenging it is, or how much
the child might be acting out,your kiddo might be acting out
against you, you have toseparate what you have to

(15:40):
separate the challenge thatyou're having with your ex from
the relationship that you'rehaving with with your kiddo.
Because you because it'll if ifyou don't, it's gonna have a
negative impact, even if you arethe one that's that's that's
alienating.
And now your story is a I hearlots of horrible, horrible
stories.
Yours is a horrible story too,right?

(16:01):
Like of extreme, extremealienation when when when a
parent actually even has to goto go to jail, and then you're
literally brainwashed, right?
You're you're literallybrainwashed against that parent.
And and it doesn't mean thatyou're you don't love that
parent.
And that's the the thing that Itry to emphasize with lots of

(16:22):
the dads is even if they're notseeing you, etc., that it's not
it's it is literallyself-protection.
And can we talk a little bitabout that because and and maybe
you can talk about that in thatcontext of how how they can help
you or help their kiddo who isis feeling unsafe, who is having

(16:45):
to have an adaptive behavior intheir life in order to survive
life with one one parent and beable to set be able to separate
that and make you feel safe.
There was a lot there.
So no, no.

SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
You you redirect us as we need to.
But I I think it's really I lovethat you highlight almost the
heart posture of not anger andyou know frustration with the
kid when they do these things,but almost out of a place of
like, oh, I understand that thisis not you choosing to act this
way, it's your brain saying thatwe need to survive.
I think that empathetic hearttowards that, those behaviors

(17:21):
are so unbelievably important,not just because it's what we
need to have, you know, beaccepted by our parents, but
also if you don't take thatheart so often you then
reinforce the narratives thatthey're being told.
Like if I'm told that my mom isa crazy person, and then I go to
her house and I'm like, dad saidyou're a crazy person.
And he goes, and she goes, Oh mygosh, your dad's a, you know,
like butt but like blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, yeah, you are crazy.

(17:42):
Like he is so right that you'recrazy.
It's so easy to reinforce those.
And so I think that heart oflike, my kid doesn't want this.
Like my kid is in the middle ofit, they're being targeted,
they're being attacked.
I need to be the rock for themthat they can come to where I
can hold the weight that they'retrying to expel the pain in
their life, and I can receive itbecause that will change so much
for them if they can feel safewith you.
And, you know, that's very hardif your kid's saying, I hate

(18:04):
you, I hope you die.
Their parents weigh better, Idon't want to do anything, have
anything to do with you.
It's so, so hard.
But that kid is, I honestlybelieve, like one inch deep,
just a sad, sweet, preciouslittle soul in there that wants
to be loved and comforted and tobe free of the burden that his
parents are putting, or youknow, one or both parents are
putting onto them.

SPEAKER_00 (18:25):
Right.
And you just and and and youdon't have the capabilities to
access the the knowledge orunderstanding because you're a
kid.
And so you like you, I like theexample you said, just like one
inch below the surface is thisprecious, tender, vulnerable,
loving child that's had to to toto create this, you know,

(18:48):
toughness above that and and actout against one of the one of
the parents.
And you know, having been well,from the parents' perspective,
that's unbelievably painful,right?
Obviously.
Um, but also I I've been I've Iwas an alienated uh child as as
well.
It's it is so confusing as a asa child because you just don't

(19:13):
know, and you look to yourparents for this is what parents
are, right?
They're they're helping guideyou mentally, emotionally,
helping you learn what feel howto manage your feel, like all
this stuff.
And when something like this ishappening, there's at least one
of the one of the parents thatis that is not doing that and is
actually creating damage tothem.

(19:36):
So really, if you're thealienated parent, it is so, so
important to try to understandwhere you'll try to understand
where the the kiddos are comingfrom.
And it's and you're not gonnaget that answer from them,
right?
Like you're gonna have to do thework outside with your
therapist, with your coach,studying and reading and
everything else, so that you canbring yourself to a place to to

(19:59):
create that safe space.
Talk to that a little bit, andthen if you can add like maybe
some specific ways that that aparent, the alienated parent can
make it safe for for a childthat's even even a child that
might be lashing out, like yousaid, and saying, I hate you.
How do you make a safe space fora kid that says, I hate you, I

(20:20):
wish you were dead?

SPEAKER_01 (20:21):
Right?
Okay, yeah.
I mean, I think that's me soimportant.
And will you just the the firstpiece of that question, just so
I don't forget it, is what?
You remind me?

SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Help help us to help us tounderstand understand that that
dynamic really about what thewhat the kid is, what the kiddos
are going through, like thatthey're just they don't they
don't have the the capacity, thecapabilities to they're they're
looking to you and the otherparent for for guidance through

(20:52):
this.
And unfortunately, one of thoseis actually doing damage and
making it like creatingdifficulties and and damaging
and creating trauma.
And so they so uh because ofthat, it's even more important
that the alienating parent showup in an e- and it's unfair,
it's completely unfair, right?
But that alien parent has toshow up in an even more loving

(21:14):
and more safe way, and how canthey do that?

SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Yeah, no, I mean I yeah, present clarification, and
that's something that touches onthe attachment theory that
drives us, and I don't want toget necessary too too clinically
into it, but it is almostimpossible to avoid it, to
understand what's going on inthe kid's brain.
Because kids, we we are drivingas human beings to have an
attachment to at least somebody,and that it can become a
something.
If we have no attachment topeople, we attach ourselves to

(21:39):
other things, and that can bethings, you know, like alcohol,
weed, substances of any sort, itcan be technology, it can be un
of the relationships.
We will attach to one thing oneway or another.
And so for kiddos, obviouslytheir natural innate attachment
desire is to the parents.
It's to mom or it's to mom anddad.
And in that situation, whenthere is this parent that's
pushing this negative narrative,the kid on some level I do
believe knows that this ishappening, that they know that

(22:02):
that might not be true.
But as they hear that, they haveto weigh, well, this parent is
maybe some of these things thatare bad.
But if what if it's true whatthey're saying, the other parent
is really unsafe.
A huge hazard to me, could notbe around them, be even worse.
And so then they end up havingto say, I'm gonna forsake the
parent who I think might bereally evil based off of what
this alienating parent issaying.
Then they get stuck in thebucket with a person who's

(22:23):
likely not mentally super stablebecause they're saying things
that are not based on reality.
They're trying to use childrento reach their objective, which
is of course inappropriate andunhealthy and destructive for
them.
So this kid is then left on anisland to say, I either have to
pick the person that might notbe bad, but I'm hearing bad
things, or the person that isbeing toxic and convincing me
that the other parent's bad,which they will pick the person

(22:46):
that is maybe more safe becausethey're not hearing things like
they're evil, they're out to getus, they're trying to destroy
our family and purpose apart.
So they pick the alienatingparent most of the time.
Just because if you think yourparents are evil, you're not
gonna pick them.
And so then they're stuck withthem.
And I think that's where parentsneed to be really intentional to
not take it too personally, tobecause if they go, oh my gosh,
my kid hates me.

(23:06):
Again, I'm telling you, it isusually not that deep.
It's these narratives that areshallow, rarely based in truth.
Usually it's like 10 or 15% ofthe lie is true, but then the
rest of it is just crap.
It's just absolute garbage.
But the kid hasn't had theskills, as you've mentioned, to
sift through that pain and whatthey're hearing.
And so as I kind of pivot intowhat can parents do, I think

(23:26):
that's where you mentioned itperfectly.
Go do your own work, make surethat you have a base that kids
can land on.
Because if they come to you withthis, these you know, fireballs
of comments and of an approachand an energy to you, they're
gonna burn the house down.
You're not gonna do it, you'regonna get reactive, and again,
you're gonna reinforce thenarrative.
And so I think once you've donethe work, that's amazing.
That's so important.
But I think, and this is it'shonestly, it's not that hard in

(23:49):
theory, but it is hard to putinto practice, which is to be
able to hold that space in areally healthy way, where they
come to you and they say, Well,mom said, you know, we'll just
stay with the mom example.
Let's say, mom said that you arespending money, you're not
paying for the things that weneed.
That's why we can't have nicethings at her house.
And, you know, you're over heregoing on dates or taking trips,

(24:10):
or you're just living the bestlife you possibly can, the
bachelor life.
And for a kid that's just gonnajust feel so hurtful.
If they hear that, it's like, mydad doesn't care enough about me
to make sure that I have thecleats I need for practice or
that we can go on a trip withmom, or we can do, you know, pay
for my school fees, because it'sjust these small things.
And so one of the things aparent can do, and you have to
make sure you're intentional tonot reverse the alienation and
just do it right back at them,is say, oh, can you share more?

(24:32):
What do you mean when you saythat?
And like, you know, like wheredid you hear that?
And when they go to mom's house,you don't go, oh, well, mom's a
liar.
You go, oh, okay, well, what doyou think?
Like, do you think is that isthat really what you think is
happening?
And you can create space forthem to share.
And again, it can be easy forthat to, you know, based off how
you respond, how you look, ifyou're giving them the stink eye
or whatever it is, in their ownhead, it will do reverse

(24:53):
alienation.
So you have to again be sogrounded and just assume that
you are collecting data fromyour kid to understand the
perspective, but in reality,you're helping them unpack what
is likely this heavy load oflies that they're trying to
carry.
So I'd say that that's I don'tknow, one you can do every
single time.
And then can I go on anotherone, another kind of point?
So another piece of it islearning to help them

(25:15):
differentiate between like whatis true and what is not true.
And I think that you can do thisone of the things that mom and I
talk about is you can even bringin things as subtle as movies
that have weird twists on themto help the kids begin to see
things where it's like, oh, Ithought it was one way, but it's
that way.
And you can kind of reinforcethat idea that maybe what we
hear isn't always true.
That can be just so helpful.

(25:36):
And I think that if you bring inconsistent patterns and
consistent themes of stabilityin your life, but also reminding
them that maybe one story isn'talways the full reality, it is,
it seems silly, it really does.
But then as they get older, youcan kind of tie things back.
And this is again, this mightseem dramatic, but even be like,
oh, like remember that movie wewatched where it's like you hear
this one thing and it's nottrue.
Sometimes I feel like that canhappen with what we hear from

(25:57):
family members.
And again, you can't be likefrom mom, but you can just say
in general, and you can helpbuild this foundation for them
where they are building amindset that's independent.
So it's not just your wordssaying mom's wrong and mom
saying dad's wrong.
Because if they do that, the kidwill not build an internal
regulation system that can doanything for them in the long
term, but latch on to whatevernarrative they hear.
I'll pause that.

SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Right.
I love that second one.
I'd never heard of that, and Ithink it's tremendous because of
what you just finished, which isit it builds long-term the
ability for them to havediscernment and try to work
through this themselves, whichas parents, our ultimate goal is
to raise healthy, functioningadults, right?
So it's not that we want we weneed them, although it's it

(26:41):
would be nice and preferable forthem to like us, right?
Or be best friends with them oror whatnot, but but that their
long-term, their long-term orbest interest is making sure
that they're healthy andfunctioning.
And so by doing what you'redescribing, as hard as it is for
us to have to do that, becauseit's much easier to say, oh,

(27:04):
really, like you said, she'slying or or whatever, or call it
out or do whatever.
That's not that that mightsuffice in the moment and that
might make you feel better, butit's not going to help them.
And and if we want to to try,because all we can really do is
attempt to mitigate what theother parent is doing to

(27:27):
whatever st whatever extent wecan.
And that mitigation, at least inmy mind, from what you
described, is it's it's it's notimmediate, right?
We're we're setting it, we'replanting a seed that hopefully
or or will really, because likeI was alienated, I came around,
I figured it out, I understandthe dynamic.

(27:47):
A lot, I would say a majority ofkids do figure that out.
This is a this is a tool, whatyou just described, and a skill
that can really help tofacilitate that process for them
when they get older.
Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
Yeah, and that and that it's the long game.
And that's the part that canfeel so hard because I'm like, I
wait, you want I want my kid tocome back next week and no
longer think this.
And it's it's so sad.
And you would think that becauseit's so unfair, there would be a
quick, easy fix to reliviateyour pain, but or alleviate your
pain, unfortunately, there isnot.
And it is this thing where youare just hoping that maybe for
their high school, middle schoolyears, they might not see it

(29:52):
that way.
But as they become, you know,maybe 17, 18, they go, Oh my
goodness.
And I have a client right nowwho was alienated pretty
intensely, and the mom did apretty good job, struggled some,
but to hold herself, to begrounded, to show up and be
loving.
And this kid now as an adult islike, wait, what are you talking
about?
Like, dad said what?
Like that's what that's what Iused to believe in.
Now he's going back to his mom,being like, I want to have a

(30:14):
relationship with you.
Now he lives with her full time,and he just sees her as a person
who was his rock, even thoughthe mom would have been like, My
kid hates me.
She kept to that consistency,and that's you know, so my mom
didn't.
So that is so so important andso true that it's a seed, and it
can take years.
So that's hard.

SPEAKER_00 (30:31):
So very hard.
What was for you, what was thatthat turning point where maybe
that that seed started to sproutand you start and and you start
you you started to shift?
And is that is there is thereanything as a as an alienated
parent that we can do to to helpfacilitate that?

SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Yeah.
I love that question because itreally is like you know, one of
the things where hopefully wemitigate it so alienation never
happens.
That's ideal.
That's parents being superintentional from the get-go,
marrying someone that's notgonna potentially do that down
the road, but that is oftentimesnot the thing that we're fully
thinking about when we're youngand in love and finding our life
partners.
And so when you are in thatposition, I believe one of the

(31:14):
best things you can do is tofind somebody that is gonna be a
part of this kid's life that'sbased in, you know, is grounded,
is smart, is not gonnanecessarily serve one parent or
the other, but is a pretty solidfoundation and just objective
reality to be there in thatkid's life.
Because for me, when I went tothe treatment center in Utah, it
was some of the probably best,best, you know, psychologists
and therapists and psychiatristsin the entire state of Utah.

(31:37):
But the person that made all thedifference for me was a random
worker there who was essentiallyjust a hired body to make sure
kids didn't attack each othernamed Alex.
And Alex was someone that lovedon me and he poured into me.
And he's like, You're here forreasons that I don't fully
understand because it soundslike you just have a really
crazy home.
You don't have a super, youknow, significant neurological
deficit besides being, you know,a little bit crazy myself,

(31:58):
mostly ADHD neurodiversitystuff.
But he was like, You just seemlike you're a kiddo who's been
lost and needs some love.
And you know, I'm gonna saythose exact words, but he just
poured into me, he showed up forme, and he helped me find a
sense of foot or find a footingwith a sense of reality that
wasn't based off my dad or basedoff my mom.
But he was like, I care aboutyou, and I care about you having
the best reality you can have.

(32:19):
And there was one day that heread my he read my file and he
was like, Palmer, I think thatthere's parts of the story that
you've told me that I don't knowhow true they are.
Because if it comes from dad,it's one thing.
If it comes from mom, it alwaysfeels Bias.
But if you find a person that islike a trusting individual in
this kid's life, it will mean somuch more to them, at least in
my opinion, than you ever tryingto say the magic words to
convince them that mom or dadisn't the big alienator.

(32:41):
And so I still to this day, I'mso grateful for Alex.
And you know, while not all ofmy work is focused on
alienation, alienation,mitigation.
It is always such a treat to getto be there for kiddos who are
in an alienated situation whereI can come in and be like, I'm
not here for mom, I'm not herefor dad.
I'm here for you.
And if they tell me things, I'lltake into consideration.
I'll tell you what they tell mebecause I want you to know that

(33:03):
you are first on my list ofpeople that, you know, you can
come to me and my trust belongsto you and not to your parents.
And just to get to watch kidsloosen and melt and just get to
be honest with me and not thinkthey have to carry such a
burden.
So when the day comes that theygo, What do you think of this,
Palmer?
And I can be like, I think maybeit's not as true as you thought
it was.
It to me is, I don't know, it'sthe greatest role I can play in

(33:25):
the kids' life.

SPEAKER_00 (33:25):
Yeah, that's that's amazing.
I was going to ask, do you feellike that person can be a
therapist?
Because I know that sometimestherapists don't see through
some of that, some of that stuffand don't understand the dynamic
because it is very, verynuanced.
It is very very challenging uhto to to pick up on.

(33:47):
And so so I I I like I likethat.
And you're saying it needs to bea a third party, somebody other
than the parents, whether that'sa therapist, which which would
be great, a therapist that candoes understand the the
situation and and and therelational dynamic, but it can
be somebody outside of that, afriend or a family member or
somebody else that truly justhas their best interest in mind

(34:11):
and wants to point things out tothem and have them say, Hey,
have you considered this?

SPEAKER_01 (34:17):
Yeah.
And I, yes, definitely.
And that's where you have to beintentional with who you pick,
because if my mom picked myaunt, my dad convinced me that
my cousins and uncles on thatside or aunts and uncles were
all a part of her tribe.
And I'm sure if I was on my youknow as my dad's side, he's not
gonna have anyone in his lifetrying to tell me that, you
know, maybe I'm being alienatedbecause they're hearing what my

(34:38):
dad is saying.
And so that's where it's hardbecause again, like you want to
be able to find someone that isjust like easy, accessible,
affordable, just naturally caresabout the family.
But again, if it's anyone in thefamily system, the kid can
usually kind of buy into one ofthose five or 10% lies that the
alienating parent says that, oh,if they say that, that's just
because they're on this otherperson's team.
And so I think if you can findlike a sports coach, anyone that

(34:58):
is as far removed as you can,but still being invested in the
kid's life is very importantbecause I can, my mom, her whole
side of the family, I wrote offas a part of the evil tribe that
wanted to hurt me.
And all the people on my dad'sside said, your mom is evil and
she is trying to hurt you.
And so that's where it's, Idon't know, it's a nuance.
And you are correct.
Some therapists don't see it,they don't account for it, and
they might buy into one parent'sstory.

(35:20):
Even my dad's attorneys,hopefully, you know, I don't
think they're listening to this.
But I met them at a conferencerecently where they got to
listen to our talk and they werejust like, we had no idea that
for those two years your dad waslying to us, and they were so
smart, they were so smart, socapable, but they still can get
brainwashed.
And so it's just so importantthat you aren't just picking
willy-nilly, but you are like,this person needs to be able to

(35:40):
weather the storms and be therefor my kid even under attack.
And that's one I feel verypassionate about that piece of
it.
But I know that we got more toget to.

SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Yeah, that's that's that's tremendous, tremendous
advice.
And and I'm the on the note wealways talk in the community
that attorneys are very smart atknowing and understanding the
legal system.
They're not they're nottherapists, they don't
understand relational dynamics,or at least they do to some
extent.
But when it gets into highconflict, when it gets into
mental emotional issues,personality, that's where they

(36:10):
they just don't.
We need a whole nother courtsystem to deal with that,
frankly.
But that's a that's a wholenother that's a whole nother
topic that that that that wecould talk about, at least from
a kid's perspective, too, right?
Actually, I'll add one morething to that piece, if that's
okay.

SPEAKER_01 (36:24):
One real quick thing.
Um right.
So with my program atNorthwestern, when we were going
through all these differentclasses and stuff, it was so
interesting and honestly superconcerning, right?
There's this idea of like atherapist is a therapist.
And it's like, you know, if I'mmy kids having a hard time, they
seem to go to a therapist.
And it's something like, youknow, you have you need to go to
the doctor, you have to go tothe doctor.
But if you have a foot problem,you don't just go to a person
that's you know, anophthalmologist to check your

(36:45):
eyes out.
You go to a specific person witha niche in that field.
And for therapy, anyone that'slistening or anyone that's
encouraging other people to findtherapists, you have to be so
intentional because most of mypeers, they had no idea what
alienation was.
They had no idea what it was tobe a kid of divorce.
These are people, it's one ofthe best, one of the best
programs there's in the countrythat are family systemic trained
therapists.
And they would still leave thatprogram saying, Palmer, I have

(37:07):
no idea what any of that stuffis, which is crazy because if
you go search for a therapist,you might be like, oh, they'll
be good.
And if those people don't havethe awareness, they can so
easily be misled by a reallyconvincing narcissistic type
personality.
So I just I hide that becauseI've seen it real time.

SPEAKER_00 (37:22):
Yeah, exactly.
And and I always encourage thethe dads that are listening to
to seek out therapy, but it'sjust like any any other
profession.
You've got you've got some thatare very specific to what they
what they do, and and then youalso have some that are very,
very good, and you also havesome that are very, very bad.
Also, so it's just like it'sjust like any profession.

(37:45):
So you have to be, you can'tjust be content with, oh yeah,
my kids in therapy.
Like you need to be involved,you need to understand what's
going on, you need to, you needto know your part of it so that
you can have a communicationwith therapist and and and be
able to understand all thedynamic uh and you need to be

(38:06):
intimately involved with what isgoing on in in therapy to the
extent that you're allowed toand and that it's healthy for uh
for for your for your kiddo.
So just saying, yeah, he's intherapy or she's in therapy is
just not not enough.
And I know the guys, I know thatI know the dads listening uh to
this to this show are the onesthat that are involved, but

(38:27):
sometimes we just use it as orI've I've heard it used as well.
They're in therapy, and then Istart asking more questions, or
I get the other guys on theother end of the spectrum where
they're completely alienated andand they say, well, I had them
in therapy, and then thetherapist was siding with my ex.
And then we went through thiswhole, well, we they need to

(38:48):
make their own choice, andthey're like 12.
Like they can't make their owndecision at 12, like what parent
they're supposed to live with.
They 25, their brain's not evendeveloped till 25.
It's a it's an insane, it's aninsane proposition to to do it,
but but it's but it does happen,which takes me to kind of to my
next point or my next questionfor for you, which is there are

(39:10):
and and and we've we've kind offocused in on to on to the the
the alienation thing, I guess.
So like I said, I never know Iwhere these are gonna go, but I
I think it's I think it'simportant because a lot of I
feel like the lot of the damagethat I see that I've
experienced, what I think youhave described, comes from a
parent.

(39:31):
And now it might not bealienation per se, but a parent
that has some mental emotionalissue or a personality disorder
or something like that.
So so talking about this stuff,I I feel is is really important
from the your from yourperspective as a kid that's gone
through this, has dealt withthat.

(39:52):
Obviously, one of your parentsdid have something like that.
I I had a parent like that.
So that so that the dads reallyreally know that they're not
crazy because the the part thepart that is really hard as as a
as a the parent that's beingalienated or the one that has is
you know more mentallyemotionally healthy.
You're you're still not 100%healthy if you were in a

(40:13):
relationship with this person,right?
That's the other thing I tellguys you're not a saint.
It takes two to tango, there's adynamic here, you participated
in it.
Um so but you you might be morementally emotionally healthy.
But but it's it's it's it's sohard for them to cut through
that and and and figure it out.
So my my question to you is thethe parent that might be dealing

(40:37):
with that issue, or the the thealienated parent, there's
there's two different argumentsaround, and this is especially
if they're been they're beingsignificantly alienated, where
the point to the point wherethey're the the kids are
brainwashed.
Like you said, I I totallydidn't, I thought my mom was
evil, I didn't, her family was,I didn't want to be there, I was

(40:58):
refusing, or or whatever else.
Is it better or or what is thebest strategy around how to
handle that?
To continue to fight for timewith that with that kid, and to
have have a relationship withthem and and on and being around
them and having an environmentthere they can it still still,

(41:22):
even if it's forced, be aroundyou.
Or the other argument I've heardsometimes is let it be, because
it causes more difficulty andstrife, and at some point
they're going to come backaround, or there's gonna be an
opportunity that's gonna arise,and then you can do this.

(41:44):
Now, I've got my opinion, I'mnot gonna share that right now,
but from because you've got sucha tremendous and unique
background of having experiencedit and and now studied it and
understand it now, having yourown family, like like what are
give me some feedback on onthat.

SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
Well, that's a good question, and it's so hard
because I definitely understandthe both both of the beliefs,
and you know what I say, myopinion.
I couldn't speak to any specificstudies that come to mind off
the bat, but I would say thatit's in my mind better to
continue the contact, tocontinue the parenting time, and
just go absolutely ham oneverything you can do to learn
how to be amazing at holdingspace and doing those things.

(42:24):
Because one of the only waysyou're really gonna fight those
lies is by acting them out andliving the way that is counter
to the narrative that they'rehearing.
Because eventually that's youknow, that that's all the kids
gonna hear.
At least it's gonna is likefactual and truthful.
And they're like, mom says dad'sevil, but I'm watching dad be so
nice and be so kind and reallynot scare me and do these
things.
And so I would put in the bucketfor sure of fight for it, but

(42:47):
don't just fight to have timeand then just sit there and
argue and get mad at your kidfor being alienated.
Like fight for it and be like,I'm here for you, and I'm ready
to take the punches becauseyou're my kid and I love you
dearly and show up for when theyneed you.
So it's hard.
It's definitely harder.

SPEAKER_00 (43:01):
It is really, really hard.
I'm in agreement with what youjust described is that you need
to continue to fight for yourkiddo because my experience
growing up was my dad didn't.
And so that brought a wholenother level of issues of
abandonment, of not feeling likeI was worthy, etc., because he

(43:23):
he left me to this person whohad was clear to anybody that
had any sense in and around ourfamily had significant issues.
And obviously he'd know it too,because that's why he divorced
her, right?
So so leaving a kid to it,though the way I describe it
sometimes with guys is you'reyou're you wouldn't you wouldn't
leave a child that is beingphysically abused, like right

(43:46):
outside your window, or withsomebody that you know is going
to physically abuse them.
Why are you gonna leave themnow?
Why are you gonna leave themwith somebody that's doing it
mentally, emotionally?
Now, part of it is you you don'thave a choice because of
parenting time, but if you canlimit that by having them with
you, even if it is hell andthey're acting out and
everything else, that is waybetter than just allowing it to

(44:09):
happen and allowing the abuseand the trauma to to build up
and continue.
So so I think we're in agreementon that is fight.
The other thing is we're dads,and we're supposed to be
fighting for this.
And I know and and I know ithappens on both sides, right?
But we're addressing the dadsthat are listening tonight.
You're your dad.
You're supposed to be fightingthis fight.

(44:31):
That is what we do as as dads,and this is part of how we have
to show up.
And I know you're a you're ayoung dad, you're a young dad
too.
And and and so I I just don'tsubscribe to the you know, the
they will come back.
They will come back like I did.
I feel that it took me muchlonger, well into my 30s, before
I really figure stuff out,right?

(44:52):
And then in and and until I wasmarried and had my own kids,
right?

SPEAKER_01 (44:55):
Until I can do, I mean, that's so many amazing.
I mean, those those are like theyears where it's like that's
like one of the best years to bea parent is during those years.
I I completely agree.
And I think that the piecearound dads showing up to fight
is so important.
And it's one of the things that,you know, I I believe it also
demonstrates to your kids likewe do the things that are hard.
And the research on therebetween like physical, you know,

(45:16):
I think the physical abuse issuch a great example because in
our talk we reference how therewas a big study done that shows
that the mental and physical orthe mental piece of it can cause
more lasting damage in certainsituations of high conflict
divorce than physical and sexualabuse.
But we just don't register itthe same.
But you you're so right that wewould never leave a kid just
getting punched or sexuallyabused in a room with the abuser

(45:37):
because we're like, that's toomuch.
Like that would feel soabandoning.
So completely agree.
And I think that, you know, asmen in particular, we are called
to lead and to show our kidsthat we are leaders.
And so when they get to theother side, even if they hated
you, they're like, oh my gosh,like you fought for me, and
that's what I need to do for thepeople that I love, and I'm
gonna do that, and I'm gratefulfor you, but more so you show me
how to be a parent and a kid andjust a human being, because if

(45:59):
they see people walk away withhard stuff, what are they gonna
do when it's hard for them andtheir kids?
So I love that.
Yeah, and it makes sense why youdo what you do now.

SPEAKER_00 (46:05):
And even if it doesn't register register
consciously for a very longtime, it does subconsciously for
them to where it's gonna bebeneficial.
Again, our our goal is to raisehealthy and functioning
children, right?
And if you're fighting, even ifyou're not getting the result
that you want, you well, you youare getting the result, even if
you're not seeing orexperiencing the result that

(46:27):
that you want, it is happeningbecause you're doing what you're
supposed to be doing.
So so yeah, that's yeah, I'm I'mI'm I'm glad you I'm glad you
agree with that.
It's it's it's really, reallytough to to to experience and
and deal with for for for thedads that are doing it, but just
keep keep fighting.
I just want to, if you'reexperiencing this and you're

(46:48):
listening, just keep fightingfor your kiddos.
I promise it will make adifference in in their lives,
whether you live to experienceit, whether it comes full circle
and you have a relationship, itis gonna make an an impact.
So okay, so like I told you, welike we can go really, I can go
with you.
I wanna I just want to touch onthe the program and what you and

(47:12):
your mom are doing because thiswork is remarkable, and and I
want everybody's listening to toreally listen to to what we're
gonna talk about and and thework that that Palmer's doing,
and then go to the to thewebsite and and check out the
program.
So, first, I want to know whatwas the conversation like uh
with your you and your mom whenyou decided to like go into

(47:33):
business together now, likeyou're all full circle, right?
And now it's like, hey, let'sstart a business together.

SPEAKER_01 (47:40):
Oh my goodness.
It was, yeah, I mean, ithonestly happened gradually
because otherwise I would havebeen like, what are you talking
about?
And because we got asked, sosomeone knew our story and had
asked us if he wanted to do apresentation with the Trade
Creek School Districts, and wewere like, sure, you know,
that'd that'd be cool.
And so that was what gave birthto what has become now, you
know, three years of getting towork together and getting to

(48:01):
travel the world, getting to goto speak at conferences and do
work that we both have justrealized is it's so important.
And what we both I think wouldbe happy just to do our own
private practices of coachingand therapy, we're like, there
is bigger work to be done beyondwhat is just easy for us.
And so that has been the heartbehind our work to this day.
And so that's what kind of ledus to go through a few
iterations of what we thoughtwould be the most important

(48:23):
things for parents to learn andended up now with a class that's
called Care for the Kids,because so often it's just about
the most, you know, the bestways to have communications back
and forth post-divorce.
And it's all these high-levelthings that are about the
parents and their relationship,which I think are good, of
course.
But ultimately, if the heartisn't around the kids, how
convicted are you really goingto be to try to have a decent

(48:44):
relationship with your ex?
Like if that's the heart behindthe course, never gonna do much
for you.
And so we created a course thatwe go through, I think we
interviewed 18 or 19 differentpeople who are divorced
professionals, adult children ofdivorce, parents of divorce to
get to share their perspectives,their advice.
And then we go through all ofthe different bunch of research,
but especially the techniquesand the things that you can do

(49:05):
to help make sure that whetheryou are part of just a
relatively mild divorce orpretty ultra high conflict,
there are things in there thatwill help you be able to make
sure that your kids get throughthe divorce with the least
damage possible.
If not, research shows that ifyou do it really well, they can
grow, be more resilient thankids that didn't go through
divorce in the first place.
And so it really can be anamazing opportunity to get to be
like, I am giving my kid, I'mnot gonna call it a gift because

(49:26):
it's definitely not a gift, butI'm giving them the chance to be
stronger and better because ofthis hard thing, and we get to
redeem it through our actionsand a loving, stable home.
And so that's Care for the Kid,which is exactly how it sounds
careforthead.com.
And for us, we made it becauseit just is what we wish we had,
what my mom wishes that she had,because even as a marriage and

(49:47):
family therapist, she just gotcompletely overwhelmed by a lack
of knowledge and what to do,what was important, what she
should and shouldn't say.
And so it's just a hope to getto support parents in that.

SPEAKER_00 (49:59):
Yeah, so I've had the pleasure of, like I said,
listening and and watching youguys do your presentation.
Unbelievably powerful.
Like I was just very, veryemotionally moved by listening
to both of your stories, whichthen really listening then to
you guys talk about these skillswas amazing.

(50:19):
And now you've put that all intoa formalized course, which is,
like you said, specific.
So it's not just if you'restarting out divorce, it's not
just if you're in a highconflict divorce.
Like these are tools, and I knowyou've got, I don't know how
many modules there there are,but it, but but there's there's
there's there's modules,multiple modules, and it and and

(50:42):
the the coolest thing, so ittakes from your your mom and and
to some extent your clinicalexpertise too, right?
Obviously, your mom's been inlonger, but and then also the
the lived experience.
So these are two people fromfrom every perspective that then
have created this entire this inentire program that's that that

(51:04):
encompasses everything.
And and some of it we like likeone of the modules is caught in
caught in the middle, helpingyour child navigate parental
parental tension, like which iskind of one of the core issues.
One of them is keeping yourchild talking when it matters
most.
Like these are the topics of ofeach of these modules.
So it is like you said, it's notkind of this high, this

(51:25):
high-level stuff, like how doyou effectively co-parent and
you know, this method, briefinformed, like those are all
good, right?
But this is when when it'sbrutal.
This is when it's brutal andyou're going through and you're
going through it, and it canhelp even if it's not brutal,
but even but if it is, there'snothing else out there like

(51:46):
this, Palmer.
Like, I've not seen anythinglike this from the perspective
that you guys are going.
This is why I'm so excited tohave you on and want you guys to
and want you to talk about it.
Talk a little so okay, so youwere kind of really nice and in
in talking about it.
I talk about it a little more,man, because this is seriously
an amazing program that's thatanybody is going through

(52:08):
challenges in in divorce withwith kiddos has got to get into.
Yeah, well, I I love it.
I know you're being very humbleabout it, whatnot.
It is it is awesome.
It is it is something that is soso needed.

SPEAKER_01 (52:25):
That's that's very sweet.
And I one of the things aboutthis work is I really never feel
like it's it's from me or comefrom me or is about me.
And I have a hard time talkingabout the things that I, you
know, if we make something,because I just that's not who I
am.
But it is what it is, a coursethat I mom, my mom and I spent,
I think it was like 20 months,where we would meet for four

(52:45):
hours every single week for thefirst year and then eight hours
a week for the second year.
And we would just pour ineverything we possibly thought
we could need.
And then we figured out what weneeded to put into, I think it's
four and a half or five hours intotal of what are the most
important lessons for parents tohear is everything that we
experienced in our own livesfrom my perspective, from her
spec perspective, what the mostthe cutting edge research shows

(53:07):
around the impact as well as thebest methods.
And essentially, is again, Iprobably it's one of the easiest
ways to spend four and a halfhours to make a difference in a
kid's life when it comes todivorce.
And you know, I'm pretty sure weit costs less than about half of
a session with my mom or myself.
And so definitely think it isthe best thing for your buck
when it comes to advice whenyou're looking to support your

(53:28):
kiddos.

SPEAKER_00 (53:29):
So I appreciate it can augment, but but going back
to what we talked about, whichis if you are the the parent
that's being alienated, you needevery resource possible.
And there are great resources towork on your mental emotional
states and and making sure thatyou're emotionally stable when

(53:51):
your kids show up.
There, like we said, there'sthere's stuff on how to to to to
communicate with a challengingkid, or or there's love and
logic, right?
Which I love and it's fast, it'sis it's fantastic.
It's gonna be it's gonna bedifficult to implement with in
this, like within this system,right?
Like, so there's lots and lotsof great, but but but this, you

(54:12):
know, not that you shouldn't bedoing that, because you should
find that, you should do allthat work, you should be working
hopefully with your coach oryour therapist, but then finding
this and then working throughsome of these modules and
understanding really from theperspective and the dynamic,
taking it full circle to the tothe beginning, which is we we
don't understand because wewe're not having the experience

(54:36):
that that the kiddos do, andit's and it and we're in so much
pain.
So they're in so much pain.
We're in so much pain.

SPEAKER_01 (54:42):
And you just started that way.
You just said right there.
I'm like, it it's so it's soeasy to let our own pain be the
front runner for attention.
And that ends up being one ofthe single mo and it's one of
the things like I it's it'simpossible, almost impossible to
not have that be a realitybecause as a human being, we're
wired to focus on our own pain.
And yet that is what a kid isgoing to essentially be left in

(55:03):
the dust because of like whatyou just said, I'm like, it's it
is so important that we hearfrom the kids.
And that's, I mean, I thinkthere's seven interviews with
kids of divorce, getting to talkto all those different pieces
and what it feels like andthings that they wish their
parents had done that they wouldthink would have helped them.
And it's it's it's small things.
It doesn't even take that muchto totally change a kid's
experience of divorce.
Obviously, it can be hard, but Iyeah, that piece of the kids'

(55:24):
perspective, and that's my wholething.
That's why I think that it's so,so dang important for people to
do that.

SPEAKER_00 (55:30):
And so let's maybe let's wrap up.
I mean, I've got like like waymore that I want to talk about,
but we should we should limitit.
And maybe we'll maybe we'll haveyou come back, or maybe we'll
have you and your mom come backand and talk a little bit.
I think I think that would bethat would be fun, maybe more
fun for me than than you to beable to talk with the both of

(55:51):
you at the at the same time.
And and then and then we canalso continue to promote your
promote your program so thatmore and more of the listeners
can get involved in it and getthis the support that they need.
But let's let's um talk uh alittle bit about that, what you
said of this really is anopportunity.

(56:13):
And and and I say that a lotwhen when we're in group
meetings or when I'm doingprivate coaching with guys, but
it's it and that's hard for dadsto get their minds around that
that it this can be anopportunity for them to
exemplify, and it's gonna beexemplifying mostly through
modeling, like how you'reshowing up for for them, and and

(56:36):
and and it's not gonna register,you're not gonna get a thank you
card from them, right?
Like right right away.
But you truly, truly can have ahuge impact, probably not the
the way you wanted to or how youwanted to.
You you alluded to to that as aswell.

(56:57):
And none of us ever got marriedand fell in love and had kids to
then have a disordered partnerthat's alienating kids or making
life hell and and then havingall this this pain.
But we're we're here now, guys.
And in in for whatever reason,divine or like whatever you

(57:17):
believe, divine universe,whatever, we're here now.
And in in how you show up andwhat you do in that moment can
have uh an impact on that, andit and it actually can be a
really, really positive thing.

SPEAKER_01 (57:33):
I yeah, I mean you said it all.
I it is you know, I so far thenine months have been a dad, the
greatest honor.
And I have I was still I'm soworried that I'm gonna mess it
up because I no dad ever plansto mess it up or get it wrong.
And I think what you're doing isso phenomenal, and it is one of
those things that it is sounbelievably important because
it'll change a kid's lifeforever.

(57:54):
I mean, the I I I had brought somuch research with me that would
have been more boring to listento, but the stats on the
research about what a singleparent can do, or a parent, you
know, even just one parent beingstable and consistent, even in a
chaotic situation of justdivorce as is, alienation, high
conflict, it can completelychange a kid's life.
It can, the research showsthere's a Harvard study done

(58:15):
that it doubles a kid's chanceof having healthy resilience if
they have one simple parentthrough it.
It talks about the braindevelopment.
Oh, there's so many things.
If a dad does a good job showingup, equipping themselves,
putting aside their own prideand saying, I want to be the
best that I can be for my kids,it will change things forever.
And you won't see it for five,10 years, but you will see a kid
that gets to grow up and behappy and have healthy
relationships and do the thingsthat you would have hoped for

(58:37):
your kid that they get to holdthem in your arms and say, Oh my
gosh, this is a precious littleangel.
I'll do anything for you.
Like this is the time toactually do that thing where
you're doing anything for them,being a part of what you're
doing, finding support of anytype, getting your kids support.
I just, I love it.
I love what you're doing.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:50):
Well, share a little bit.
You shared one of them, butshare a little bit because I
feel like that is inspirationaland gives guys, our us dads, a
little bit of hope, knowing thatwhen we're when we're going
through it, that hey, this andand because we're we're guys and
we process stuff like verylinearly and and calculating,
share some of those statisticswith us as to what the benefits

(59:14):
are, what your what your kiddois going to realize if you do
stay in this, if you do show upand if you do fight for them.

SPEAKER_01 (59:22):
Well, I'll kind of read through a couple of my big
ones.
And then so one of the onesabout 75% of children express
express distress throughbehavior rather than words after
divorce, acting out,withdrawing, or appearing too
mature, which that one isimportant that kind of goes back
to the whole idea of your kidsare saying these crazy words of
their actions.
What they're doing is speakingto the underlying pain that

(59:43):
they're experiencing.
It's just a good reminder thatwe need to not focus on that,
but focus on what is the actualimportant part going on.
This one I love so much isfather involvement matters more
than household arrangement,which essentially is saying that
some perfect parenting plan thatyou spend a billion dollars on a
PRE, whatever it is to craft it,is going to do nothing compared
to you being present, warm, andable to regulate your emotions

(01:00:04):
with your kids.
Having one emotionally availableparent according to the REACH
study at ASU, which is like oneof the benchmarked ones for
kids' well-being, it shares thathaving an emotionally available
parent can significantly bufferthe negative effects of divorce.
Children with one attuned,responsive caregiver are 60%
more likely to report positivemental health five years later.
And these mental health themeswill carry through an entire

(01:00:27):
life.
They do not just happen for fiveyears and go away.
It's like it will changeeverything.
The impact of parents' divorceon kids is 30%, they're about
31% more likely to drop out ofhigh school if they do not have
a stable parent in their lives.
Children of divorce are two tothree times more likely to
experience long-term mentalhealth struggles compared to
peers from intact families ifthey do not have a strong,
consistent parental father orfather figure in their lives.

(01:00:48):
Another one that I always loveis yeah, just safe-based
parenting.
There's another Harvard study atthe Developing Child Research
Lab where they talk about justbeing calm, consistent, and
emotionally attuned.
And I can show it shows, it'sbeen shown to promote healthier
brain development, particularlyin the regions that are regulate
emotion and self-control.
So when your kids you getdivorced and your kid starts

(01:01:09):
acting out and doing things,whether it's not during homework
in or doing drugs, it is theirbrain's response to an
underdeveloped prefrontal cortexwith a desire to, you know,
regulate stress mixed with theunderdeveloped part of their
brain, amplified by divorce.
And so there's just all thesethings that it impacts kids so
much.
And whatever your kid is doing,I promise you, it's not because
they're some broken, ruined kid.

(01:01:30):
It's because they are in pain.
They don't know what to do.
Divorce is not a natural processthat we go through.
We weren't created to bedivorced.
I don't believe so.
We're could it be a family unitthat lasts time and gets to be
there consistently for our kids?
But there's just so much.
One that I love because it's youknow what fuels my work is from
the ACES study, which again is ahuge one for the adverse child
experiences.

(01:01:50):
But it talks about having onestable, uncaregiving individual
in a kid's life, which can be ateacher, a coach, a therapist,
reduces the negative impacts ofdivorce by up to 50%, having
that trusted person who's there.
And so that's why, you know, Ido my therapy, that's why I do
my coaching, because 50% is nojoke when it comes to our kids.
You know, we we take pills thatreduce our risk of heart disease

(01:02:11):
by 12%, let alone things thatare 50% for our kids' life.
And so, I mean, I have fourpages that are kind of my go-to
stats that I look at on a weeklybasis to inform myself, but
we'll we'll pause that becauseyou know we need to get going.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:23):
Yeah, no, that's that's huge.
So, so Palmer, let everybodyknow how they can access the
program.
Where do they go to?

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:30):
to to do that how they can get involved and and
also how they can get involvedwith with uh individual coaching
or therapy with with you andyour mom i love it so the course
itself is called care for thekids and the url is careforthe
kid dot com c a r e f o r k i ddot com i can spell and then my

(01:02:52):
personal work is called skineskicoaching and therapy which is
skineski s k u d n-e-s-k-i c tdot com and if you search Palmer
therapy in Colorado there's notmany people of that name so
it'll pop up but that's to getto do coaching and therapy and
so in a lot of many situations Ithink kids are divorced honestly
just need a coach who kind of isthat Alex figure to me who is a

(01:03:14):
loving consistent presence whoisn't even in the clinical
mental health realm but is justa person they get to encourage
love on them employing them Iwould say I have seen such
amazing things come from thatcoach role even though it's not
a clinically trained person it'sjust a person that loves their
kid well and is going to show upfor them.
I've been seeing kiddos for fouror five years now and it's just
so I'm going to my first kiddo'swedding I'm like it's just so
fun.
He was 17 when he started nowhe's getting married like it's

(01:03:36):
so cool.
And so whether it's through thator through something else a
different program a differentperson in the kid's life please
for all the dads find thatperson outside of your family
outside of you and the wife orwhatever the situation is to be
in your kids' life to love withthem support them whether it's
me or you want my help to helpyou find somebody I I mean
that's why I do what I dobecause I think that every kid
deserves that and it's thebiggest treat in the world.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:56):
But yeah and I'm gonna say make it Palmer go to
Palmer go to the go to theprogram or make it your mom and
and and get that help for sure.
Palmer thank you so much forbeing here I sincerely sincerely
appreciate it your your yourvulnerability and your your
openness about your yourexperience and your story and

(01:04:17):
for for choosing to to do thiswork.
It's something that we were wewere talking earlier is there's
such a void and and you'retrying to fill that as much as
you can so it you're truly ablessing and and thanks for
sharing with us today.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:30):
Thank you so much.
Such a treat and you knowhopefully the dads in your group
get to continue to lean on youbecause clearly you we got a
pretty good read on what it'slike to be in the situation that
these dads are going through.
So thank you so much for thatchance to get to talk to them.
Google for what you're doing andit was such a pleasure to get to
chat take care.
Thank you

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279 - What If The Bravest Thing Is To Keep Showing Up?

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