When Sonia left the insurance industry to pursue a path of purpose with children, little did she know she'd become an impassioned literacy advocate. Her heartfelt dedication shines through as she unveils the critical role of literacy in education and the profound effect it can have on individuals throughout their lives. Our enlightening conversation with Sonia, a literacy expert and founder of Support to Excel, uncovers the nuanced challenges children face with reading and writing, the early indicators of dyslexia, and the tailored strategies her organization employs to ensure every child can excel.
https://supporttoexcel.com/
danabaltutis.com, mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services
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Episode Transcript
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Dana (00:01):
Hi, Sonia, hello, Welcome to the Empowered Parent Podcast.
I'm really, really excited tohave you on the program today
because your area of specialtyand passion is very interesting
for, and important for, many ofthe parents listening today and
(00:21):
many of the parents that I knowI've worked with listening today
and many of the parents that Iknow I've worked with.
Sonia, you are a literacyextraordinaire, a literacy
teacher.
You're qualified in teachingboth preschool and school age
children and, after many, manyyears of experience in the
school system, including specialeducation, you established your
(00:43):
wonderful and much neededorganization, support to Excel,
and we're going to have the linkto this organization in our
notes below.
Before we start talking aboutSupport to Excel and how you
help children and families,sonia, could you please talk a
(01:03):
little bit about yourself andhow did you come to be a teacher
and why the interest inliteracy?
Sonia (01:12):
Great question.
Thank you, Dana.
I'm very happy to be here andjust to share a little snapshot
of myself.
So, thank you, I feel veryprivileged to be here.
Okay Well, my journey intoteaching in my 20s I made a
decision.
I went and did my degree and Iwas just kind of floating in
life going, oh, I don't knowwhat I want to do, I don't know
(01:34):
what I want to be, and so Ithink I took on that external
chatter of, oh well, most peoplework in an office.
So I went and you know, I didmy degree and then I went and
worked in an office and I workedin insurance.
So I did that for I think itwas about 10 years and I was
just like this is crushing mysoul, so I couldn't do it.
(02:00):
I realised I had my children.
So I had my first child, amber,and then I went back to work
part-time.
I was like, look, it waspart-time work, it fitted,
having kids.
And then I had my second child,I had some time off and then it
was time to go back to work andI was like I can't do it, I
(02:21):
just can't sit and work in anoffice.
Dana (02:24):
I needed purpose.
Sonia (02:25):
I just can't sit and work in an office.
I needed purpose.
I'm someone I've realised thatI just need purpose to get up
and, yeah, to work.
So I made the decision.
I said to my husband.
I said I've actually alwayswanted to do teaching.
I've always loved children,I've always had a very good
connection with young children.
(02:46):
And you know, honestly, I waslike this was my second degree.
I was like, nah, I'm just goingto put it out there.
But yeah, I said, look, I thinkI'm going to go do early years
teaching.
And so he's like, yeah, I thinkyou should, and I did so.
I did my Masters in early yearsteaching it.
I think you should, and I didso.
I did my Master's in EarlyYears Teaching.
(03:07):
It was a two-year degree I had,but it took me five years.
I had young kids, I was workingand I just did it at my own
pace.
And, yeah, that was a change inmy life and where I thought I
was going to go.
So it ignited that sense ofhaving passion and purpose
(03:29):
within work, which is important.
So really, I think my childrenwere the impetus of that change.
Wow, yeah, I do Wow.
Dana (03:40):
And why literacy?
Because there's so much inteaching, isn't there?
Why literacy?
Sonia (03:48):
Two main reasons.
I was actually doing an NLPcourse with Tony.
We both know.
Dana (03:52):
Tony.
Sonia (03:55):
And she was demonstrating the spelling technique and one
of the participants actually gotup and she started crying and
she said I thought I was dumb mywhole life and I'm embarrassed
to say this, but it shocked me.
I went oh my God, how manychildren, how many students are
(04:20):
walking out of our schoolsystems feeling less than
feeling dumb and holding on tothat.
I was like that doesn't sitwith me right, because I know,
as a teacher and someone whoteaches literacy skills,
spelling it needs to be taught.
It doesn't equate tointelligence and there's so many
(04:41):
facets of intelligence anywayin my opinion.
But it doesn't equate tointelligence, it just means that
you need to be supported andgiven the structure and the
support and the actual explicitteaching to gain that skill.
So that was actually the momentwhere I was like I've got to do
something about this, lovely.
(05:02):
And then that developed intoliteracy.
And secondly, in early yearsand it works differently in
different countries, I believe.
But look, I felt quiteoverwhelmed as an early years
teacher, I felt like I had to bea jack of all trades.
I had to get my pulse onnumeracy, get my pulse on
(05:24):
literacy, get my pulse onsupporting our children socially
, emotionally, get my pulse onscience, for God's sake.
Sometimes I had to be a PEteacher.
And I just felt like I'm thesort of person I need mastery, I
need to really focus on a skilland really give myself that
opportunity to develop it.
So that was probably one of thesecond reasons is I really
(05:48):
wanted to just focus on literacyand develop that skill.
And I think maybe I'm a bit ofa language nerd because I study
Italian as well.
Dana (05:57):
Language is your thing, right For fun, and I think the
you know what you're saying.
That probably resonates with alot of teachers.
You know teachers feel likethey've got to be
jack-of-all-trades for so manychildren.
Yeah, and you know, somechildren do fall through the
gaps.
Yes, and you know that could bebecause there's not enough
(06:19):
resources in the school.
It could also be that the childis not ready to take on the
information, the way theinformation is delivered to them
, and that's why I think yourorganisation support to Excel is
so important, because it giveschildren that time to focus on
(06:41):
their literacy and you also workin a way that the children, you
know, can take on thatinformation, you know, rather
than it's in a big room with alot of other children, a lot of
distractions.
You know they're coming to you,Sonia, and you're such a warm
and giving person.
I can feel it, you know, andthe children would want to be
(07:02):
with you and I'm sure that youwould make literacy fun as best.
I can feel it, you know, andthe children would want to be
with you and I'm sure that youwould make literacy fun as best
I can.
Sonia (07:10):
I'd like to say that all of them are like Sonia's coming
today, but it's not like that.
But look, one thing that I amis is extremely patient.
I am compassionate and I thinkwhat I've one of my strengths as
a teacher is I'm always able toreally see that child and
connection always comes firstfor me.
I think children need to knowthat you care and that you see
(07:33):
them just like us and that youbelieve in them Absolutely.
Dana (07:37):
So if we're not believing in the children and we're
thinking just from the problempoint of view, then the children
are going to have problems.
So we really need to look more.
I always talk aboutstrengths-based perspective.
That's so important.
So, Sonia, is there anyresearch on how many children
(07:59):
have literacy difficulties?
Sonia (08:02):
Look, the other day I came across something that said
one third of our students, youknow, are below competency in
literacy.
I'll talk anecdotally.
Dana (08:17):
If that's okay.
Sonia (08:18):
Yes, definitely so just from my own experience and what
I've seen and my connections.
For one example, I worked witha boy.
When I first met him he was 15,you know, like a mild
intellectual disability and somecomplex things going on for him
at home and stuff.
(08:38):
But you know, when I first methim he was probably at a year
one to year two level, at 15years of age, and that was quite
shocking to me because I waslike okay, how, how does this
boy get through a system and itjust gets missed or pushed aside
.
You know so for me that's anexample of a failure of a system
(09:02):
in education.
You know my experiences ofworking in certain areas there
are a lot of children who arestruggling.
You mean demographics,demographically, yeah, yeah,
there was a lot of my studentswere struggling.
There's a real disparitybetween you know, those children
(09:23):
that were the haves and thehave-nots.
Dana (09:24):
Exactly, yeah yeah, there's a real disparity between
, you know, those children thatwere the haves and the have-nots
.
Yeah yeah, and why do you thinkthat is?
Is that because the schoolsystems haven't got the
resources or the familieshaven't got the resources, or
both?
Or is there not that emphasison literacy in different
demographic areas, or is it justa mixture?
Sonia (09:47):
Okay, look, I think that unfortunately, what's happened
is in education, we have latchedonto how we'll approach
literacy in fads, in trends, infads in trends, and latching
(10:08):
onto things that are implementedfrom top down, that sound
romantic, lovely pedagogy butdon't work on a practical level
within classrooms and don'tactually help our students to
learn.
So we've come from withinliteracy what we call whole
language.
So I suppose this is built onthe premises that when we
(10:32):
develop oral language, we'lldevelop that quite naturally
just from being in our homeenvironment.
Dana (10:38):
Right.
Sonia (10:38):
Okay, you know, I suppose through this osmosis sort of
process.
But we know now that languageand literacy development,
reading and and writing does nothappen that way, and so we took
on this very, this wholelanguage.
we, you know, we just would putkids in there and we'd say look,
let's see what they can do withbooks and we'd let them explore
(11:01):
and um more of a constructivistsort of approach, I suppose, to
teaching literacy and what wesee now, like I know myself,
Dana, I've had to teach myselfspelling conventions and learn
rules, and I was like why did noone ever teach me as a student?
I would love to have known thatspelling pattern or convention.
(11:23):
I would love to have known thatspelling pattern or convention.
And I think now we're startingto understand that skills do
need to be taught explicitly.
There needs to be structure,and teachers ourselves within
the profession need thatprofessional development and
training and good qualitytraining, and I can tell you
(11:46):
that when I left university,what was a phoneme?
Dana (11:50):
I don't know what a phoneme is.
I don't know what phonologicalwitness.
Sonia (11:52):
I think I remember it from my exam and there was a lot
of pedagogy, a lot of pedagogy,but how do I practically
actually teach children how toread.
I have to work that out myselfand that's.
You know, that's tough and yeahyeah.
Dana (12:09):
So is there a mixture now of different approaches in
classrooms or is like, is theeducation system using one
approach?
Sonia (12:19):
no, no, no and I remember , even with my own, when, with
my daughters, I rememberspeaking to her teacher and
saying oh so how do you teachliteracy?
Do you do it like in a unifiedway?
Is everyone following a sort ofa structure?
No, everyone had their own sortof different way of teaching
reading and writing in theirclassroom.
(12:41):
It's very hot potch sort ofapproach.
I'm hoping that it will changeand not to the point where we're
all military format that's notwhat I'm talking about where
diversity has no place.
I'm not talking about that but.
I'm talking about knowing yourstuff, knowing your content so
(13:03):
that you can confidently teachour children with flexibility.
Dana (13:10):
I guess, numeracy right.
When we're looking at numeracy,we're looking at addition,
subtraction, multiplication.
That's definitely taught indrill and it's explicitly taught
.
So literacy would be verysimilar.
Because it is symbols.
We're learning about symbols,how they go together, what
(13:32):
symbols go, when they go, howthey all form words.
And I think, yeah, we have lostthat perspective.
And what about?
You know, I hear reading eggsaround the place.
You know, is that somethingthat parents could be investing
(13:53):
in, or Look, I haven't looked atthat for a while.
But is that a program?
It is a program, yeah.
Sonia (14:03):
I couldn't honestly answer that I'd have to look
into it.
Yeah, it is a program.
Yeah, I couldn't honestlyanswer that.
I'd have to look into it.
Yeah, it depends.
Some programs are better thanothers.
Yes, yes, that's the way theyteach literacy.
You've got to look at scope andsequence of literacy.
Yes, I'll give you one example,donna.
Dana (14:18):
Yes.
Sonia (14:19):
I would say the letter S.
Most people know that theletter S represents one sound, s
.
Yes, it represents two z.
Most of our kids aren't, sowe've got s, and then the more
common sound that it representsis z.
So a lot of our kids don'tactually know that they're like,
what are you talking about,sonia?
It only represents one sound.
Dana (14:38):
Yeah right, no at the end of a word.
Sonia (14:41):
where you hear that vibration, your voice box.
Switch on it will represent azzz sound, yes, so look, I'm
hesitant to comment on thereading eggs, because I don't.
Dana (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, but I think anything is better than nothing,
right, as long as the child isinterested.
Sonia (15:01):
Exactly, yeah, and we'll probably get into this later,
dana, but I've got you know,when my kids unfortunately or
fortunately for them, we'll seehow they see it, but because I
was studying my teaching degreewhen they were young, you know I
was in there playing games withthem.
I was doing all that stuffthrough games and play-based
approach.
So yeah, approach.
Dana (15:32):
Um, so yeah, so um, you mentioned about the um education
system a little bit.
Um, I guess you know whenparents are thinking about where
to send their children toschool and you know, should I do
private, should I do public?
If my child has literacy issues, where are they going to get
more help?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Have you had experience aroundthat?
Parents asking you thesequestions?
Sonia (15:51):
Yes, they do, and look, I always say this is only my
opinion.
Mm-hmm, I would answer to that.
You know, just from my ownclients and I you get to know
your families fairly well youknow, and I would say, I've come
across public schools and thisis all things I hear yeah, okay.
(16:16):
But public schools.
I've come across privateschools that are doing it not so
well and I'm like horrified bywhat I hear and equally I hear
from both public and private ofthings that they're doing really
well.
What I do think is reallyimportant is that you do attend
those school tours and you askthe hard questions, like you
(16:40):
know if your child has dyslexiaor ADHD or whatever it is, or is
a bit shy, whatever it might be, you know nicely and kindly.
How is it that you couldsupport my child, my child has
dyslexia, and just gauge theresponse that you get from that
educator.
And I've always been a personthat I've gone to schools for my
(17:02):
own girls and I've just trustedmy intuition about a feeling, a
sense, an energy when I walkinto that school overall and
coming from teachers and comingfrom students, and a feeling
that I get.
Dana (17:19):
I don't think any school is perfect, no, imperfect as
human beings and also differentteachers, so you could have the
same school but differentteachers will be having a
different interest area and adifferent way of teaching.
Correct?
Can you talk to what isdyslexia?
Okay?
Sonia (17:35):
look it in simplest form.
It is difficulty with reading.
Okay, and the way that I woulddescribe it is in your typically
developing brain.
You want to get from SouthAustralia to Northern Territory
okay.
I suppose we could the analogyof reading yeah, we're going to
(17:57):
go from South Australia directroute, we're going to Northern
Territory.
The dyslexic brain will headover to Perth and then it might
head over to Victoria, then itmight go back to I don't know,
perth, queensland, and then itmight head up to Northern
Territory.
Okay so it's a wiring of thebrain, and so the thing with
(18:21):
dyslexia is and this is where itcan get tricky in big
classrooms is they will need topractice, repeat, practice,
repeat, practice, repeat untilthey consolidate that learning
and they'll do it at a differentrate to their peers, and I've
(18:42):
worked with various kind of.
You know there's many shades ofdyslexia, and then you have
other complications.
Some of our children have thatneurodiversity of, they'll have
dyslexia plus ADHD.
Dana (18:55):
So does dyslexia often go undiagnosed, or are children
being diagnosed early these days?
I think it's improving.
Sonia (19:06):
I know, when my girls were at school, we used, you
know, as teachers.
We weren't horrible people.
This is just what we weretaught, is that?
Oh look, you know, even if theywere noticing difficulties in,
say, reception, oh look, wereally need to wait to age seven
?
to see if they grow out of that.
(19:28):
So thank God for you knowpeople like Bill Hansberry.
We are becoming more aware ofdyslexia I don't think we really
took it seriously and thedetrimental effects and impacts
that that can have on a childand their pace of learning, but
(19:48):
not only that.
Their confidence aboutthemselves is who they are as a
learner.
So I think we're getting better.
I think we've always got a lotmore to go, a long way to go.
Dana (19:59):
Yeah, always got a lot more to go, a long way to go.
Yeah, yeah, how would parentsnotice if we're a young child
that they might start havingliteracy issues?
You know, I've seen somechildren, even when they're you
know, trying to write or dosomething.
Instead of going from left toright, they go from right to
(20:21):
left.
They, you know I've seen somechildren write their letters
backwards and things like that.
So what would be some thingsthat parents can be aware of,
just to know about their youngerchildren?
that might be having someliteracy challenges that is a
great question, dana.
Sonia (20:41):
Number one is I mean we, we can actually even from an
early age, before, I suppose,formalized to school.
If your child is um not meetingtheir milestones with
expressive language, it can bean indicator and receptive
language so that's something tothat often goes hand in hand.
(21:01):
So if a child is eventuallydiagnosed with dyslexia, parents
will have to say oh yeah, he,he did talk that little bit
later than everyone else, sothat's so that's the talking and
understanding.
Dana (21:13):
Yeah, that children may not understand everything that's
said to them or be able tofollow directions and not able
to express themselves verballyyeah, yeah, so that, those, so
that those I'm talking two,those early three, you know
those early years of where achild should be, how many words
they should be saying et cetera.
Sonia (21:32):
Yes, so that is probably number one.
I from say kindy age.
Some of the sort of signalsthat we can be looking out for
are hopefully we're looking atthings like rhyming, working
with rhyming, working withsyllables at that age,
alliteration, so alliteration,you know, apple, ant, that sort
(21:54):
of thing.
So those phonemes, those sounds, Often there is a weakness in
phonological awareness, so beingable to hear those units of
sounds, in language.
So if you've got that kid whereafter a while they're still not
picking up on that rhyming orthat syllabification is complex
(22:14):
for them, that could also be anindicator.
Look, I've read various thingsabout you know reversals with B
and D.
Dana (22:29):
I read once it just said look, that is where they are at
developmentally.
Sonia (22:31):
It is a common letter but they will have problems
distinguishing differencebetween the structure of letters
, the actual physical structureand I do see it with my dyslexic
children.
It is very common the B and Dreversals.
Another thing to really lookout for, I suppose for reception
(22:53):
age, is those kids that arereally struggling with that
letter to sound association.
So, when most of their peers.
So, for an example, if we'vegot the letter, what's a good
one, basically n, and most ofour kids can go okay, I see the
letter n.
I know that represents thesound for a child that's
(23:15):
struggling.
They out of 10 times, theymight get it twice.
And so imagine if you, if, ifit's a code, and then we ask
them to blend those codestogether.
Dana (23:25):
Yeah right.
Sonia (23:26):
And they're like hang on, what does that letter represent
again?
And we're asking them to readphonetically they're the sort of
things that we should really belooking out for.
Dana (23:36):
When we're teaching children.
I know a lot of parents come inand they're modelling sounds to
children or they're trying tohelp them with their literacy.
When children are young, shouldwe be teaching them the sound
way like but, or should we beteaching be you know?
Should we yes?
Sonia (23:58):
Yes, I've had those questions myself as a teacher.
Look, I would say both arereally important.
Okay, so we say that knowledgeof sounds are important for
reading, but we must know thoseletter names for spelling.
So, as a parent, I would beteaching both.
So we know that a dog is a dog,but a dog goes roof.
(24:21):
So, yes, we have a name for it,but it makes a sound.
Yes, okay, and really importanttoo, alphabet knowledge.
I am shocked or surprised, justsurprised at how many of our
students can't put the alphabetin order from A to Z, and it's
(24:42):
like wow, but can they sing thesong and not put the alphabet in
order from A to Z?
Dana (24:44):
And I was like, wow, but can they sing the song and not
put the alphabet in order?
Sonia (24:46):
Yeah, because they're not really connecting with it, or
there's L-M-N-O-V, l-m-n-o-v.
L-m-n-o-v is just not oneletter.
Dana (24:53):
It's not L-M-N-O-V.
Yeah, yeah okay.
Sonia (24:55):
So I would highly encourage both but Both, but
again in fun ways.
Dana, you know not necessarily,look, if your kid's into
flashcards, go knock yourselfout.
Dana (25:07):
But in fun ways, like magnets, exactly.
I know we could use shavingcream and draw in the shaving
cream, yes.
Painting, yes, you know, withyour fingers.
So if the child is very bodyoriented, yes, and I also know
what we've done in the past isyou know you could use pasta and
(25:29):
make things with pasta on the,you know, on the tabletop, and
take photos of the bee, or do itwith your own body.
Let's make an app with yourbody and.
I'll take a photo, see if it'sthere.
Yes, so these are all.
If it's there.
Yes, so these are all the ways,right?
Yes, Depends on what yourchild's interested in.
Sonia (25:47):
Absolutely.
Another really good one is, youknow, putting the fingers
together and getting them todraw it out in the air.
Dana (25:56):
That's nice, yes.
Sonia (25:58):
Yeah, there's so many fun and, I would say, organic ways.
Dana (26:03):
Yes.
Sonia (26:04):
To bring literacy into your home, into a preschool and,
you know, then eventually intoschools, et cetera.
Dana (26:12):
Yeah, great, I love that.
I love that Also, sonia, I'veread that in Finland that
Finland's got one of the besteducation systems in the world.
The children start there atseven years of age, and
beforehand the emphasis is onplay.
Yeah, have you heard about thisand if so, could you speak to
(26:33):
this please?
Sonia (26:35):
Oh, of course, I've heard of Finland, renowned Finland.
Look, I know a little bit aboutit, and, yes, we all know,
especially as an early yearsteacher, that we've all got to
move to Finland because teachersare very respected over there,
kids get to play outdoors andit's all warm and fuzzy.
Look, I think it's important,as Australia, that we do look to
(26:57):
countries that are doing itbetter than us.
We look at their strengths.
I would say, though, a cautionis to not romanticise those
countries and their educationsystem, because that education
(27:17):
system is unique to theircontext.
It's unique to who they are as apeople, to their culture, to
their society, to their history,to their physical environment.
So you know, I don't think it'spossible to emulate or go plonk
.
Let's put the Finland systeminto Australia, because we have
our own uniqueness.
Dana (27:37):
We are a different people different culture.
Sonia (27:41):
So, yes, look at our strengths, I would.
I think our kids need to beoutdoors more.
And it makes me sad.
It makes me genuinely sad thatour kids are in front of so much
technology, yeah, yeah, and Ithink a lot of the behaviours
(28:03):
that we see in classrooms, a lotof the behaviours that we're
seeing, is because our kids needto be out with nature, immersed
in nature.
Dana (28:12):
And also that helps them with their own self-awareness,
self-identity, eyesight yes,there's a lot of research around
eye sight and you know whenthey're looking short distances
rather than being able to looklong distances.
And just going back to thecultural thing as well, you know
(28:33):
we've got a lot of familiesfrom Asian backgrounds that
really highlight the importanceof academia.
Yeah, however, play is not verymuch part of their daily
routine.
So I think you know those twoextremes.
In Australia, we just put themtogether and think about how we
(28:55):
can be academically playful orplayful academically Absolutely
One of those.
So, yeah, yeah, the meeting ofboth worlds, right?
I think so, yeah that's greatthat's great.
So, um, sonia, what are some ofthe difficulties children may
have around their literacy andare there are the sources of
(29:18):
those difficulty?
Um, because of challenges inthe environment?
I mean, we touched this alittle bit, but in the
environment, neurology or both,from your experience?
Sonia (29:29):
I think that, look, I've worked in the past.
I've worked with children witha lot of trauma.
You know disadvantaged areas,and I have seen examples where I
know that delay in languagedevelopment delay in.
Let's go language developmentfirst before we even go.
(29:50):
Literacy was delayed due toneglect.
So here's someone who was borntypically developing, but
because of the environment, thatthat beautiful child was in,
there was neglect and there wastrauma and so that affected his
language skills and development.
So yes, there are examples whereit is environmental Things like
(30:15):
dyslexia we often say one ofthe questionnaires that an
educational psychologist willask you is was there language
difficulties history, languagedifficulties within a family?
So we know that generally thatthat is passed on genetically
dyslexia.
I think probably a lot of ourparents may be undiagnosed
(30:38):
because we just diagnoseddyslexia back then and that's
just their normal.
Dana (30:44):
Yeah, they don't know any different.
Yeah, yeah.
Sonia (30:47):
So, look, I definitely believe that there are
biological factors, but yourenvironment will infiltrate how
you experience that and manifestthat in the world.
So, if you've got a supportivefamily, that maybe early
intervention is an option, thatmaybe it's a home where there is
(31:11):
richness in literacy andexperiences, that is going to
change that experience for thatchild.
Dana (31:18):
Yeah, and what about so vision?
And I've heard that.
So people go to anophthalmologist and they see,
you know, whether their child,whether the child can see or not
in their vision, Yep, butthere's also behavioural
ophthalmologists, where theylook and see how the brain is
(31:42):
processing the visualinformation.
Sonia (31:44):
Yes.
Dana (31:44):
Have you heard of that?
I have, because I know a lot ofparents wouldn't have heard of
that and I think there's a lotto be said about behavioural
ophthalmology, right, becauseit's training of the brain to
make the eye see what it needsto see, and that's important for
literacy.
It is.
Sonia (32:00):
I will go on that, though , Dana.
Yes, and I've actually donesome training in that area as
well.
What was I going to say?
Yeah, look.
Firstly, we'll always look ateyesight if we're thinking that
there's a problem, but this isan interesting little fact.
We think that readingdifficulty is a visual issue Yep
(32:25):
, but the research shows thatit's an actual phonological
disorder.
Dana (32:32):
Right, so the hearing, it's the hearing, yeah.
Sonia (32:35):
And another thing that thank you for reminding me is
often children who have dyslexiaattached to that is auditory
processing, so that inability totake in information and process
it yeah.
So it actually is phonologicaldifficulty.
So the ability, for example, tolook at the structure of the
(32:59):
letter N and make the connectioninternally of that sound.
So that's why I said beforethat some of the kind of signals
in early years, you know, ifthey're having real difficulty
with rhyming and they just can'thear the difference between cat
hat and bob for example, theyjust can't hear which one is
(33:23):
different.
You know that is a phonologicalsort of deficit yeah if it's
persistent, because of coursethe child needs time to
understand that concept.
So just be aware.
So always get your kids' eyeschecked out and things like that
.
That's really important becauseyou know when they get their
four-year-old health check.
(33:43):
There's only one sort of Ican't remember if it's a long
distance or something they'reonly checking for one aspect of
sight really yes.
So I would always opt to go toan optometrist or a behaviourist
optometrist.
Dana (33:58):
I think that would be, yeah, to have a look.
And it's interesting that youtalk about central auditory
processing disorder.
For the listeners that's aboutyour child can hear, but it's
the way they process theinformation.
I know there's a lot of talk inthe speech pathology field that
children can only be diagnosedwith central auditory processing
(34:21):
disorder at seven and they needto have verbal language to be
able to be diagnosed, becauseyou need to be able to hear the
difference between cat and batand you know those things.
But we work a lot with childrenthat are non-speaking.
We work a lot with childrenthat are younger and often, as
speech pathologists, we can seethat there is auditory
(34:43):
processing issues.
Yes, and we do talk to familiesabout the auditory processing
issues and often sometimes, theauditory processing issues look
like that they're veryintolerant to loud sounds or
they can't discriminate betweensounds.
You know if they're hearing abird outside or if they can hear
(35:03):
the fluorescent lamp, you knowthey're not able to pay
attention to the conversationspeech that's going on.
So I think ask either yourliteracy teacher or your speech
pathologist or your occupationaltherapist about you know, do
you think my child has auditoryprocessing challenges, just like
(35:26):
visual processing challenges,because some children have that
as well, and I know that in theearlier days, sonia, they used
to talk about red lenses orsomething like that.
Can you, I think?
Or even the, the eye patches,you know?
Um, I've seen that as well.
(35:48):
Can you talk about that alittle bit look?
Sonia (35:52):
you know, my, my mentor, I suppose my teacher bill
hansberry would go.
Dana (35:59):
That's just poo-poo you know, yeah, look because it
might be something else.
Sonia (36:05):
If you're using red colour glasses or whatever it is
, it might be that thedifficulty lies somewhere else
not necessarily helpful fordyslexia if we're just talking
about dyslexia, because it's aphonological deficit.
Look, what I say to that too,dana, is if it works for your
(36:26):
kid and you're genuinely seeingimprovements, hey, hey, try it,
give it a go.
Yeah, just be aware that itmight not, you know.
I suppose that's why it'simportant to go to someone like
maybe an educationalpsychologist, or to hopefully
get that more accurate diagnosisof what your child might be
(36:47):
experiencing so we can reallytarget the support that that
child needs.
Dana (36:52):
Nice.
Sonia (36:52):
Yes.
Dana (36:54):
Okay.
So next question, sonia the bigone what about handwriting,
with technology in abundance now, even in school systems?
I mean, all kids have gotlaptops, they've got computers,
even at an early age.
Yes, is handwriting a dying artand are children having more
(37:15):
challenges with their eye-handcoordination and fine motor
skills to be able to write?
So are their skills changingbecause their eye-hand
coordination is different on acomputer than it is to a pen and
paper?
Sonia (37:31):
Oh, I can't wait to answer this one.
Donna, you see me bursting.
Okay, just anecdotally, I cansee that my students, or the
students I work with, don't havethe stamina.
They do not have the stamina towrite and I'm not even talking
(37:53):
like half a page.
Dana (37:55):
What does that mean?
What does that look like?
I don't know the way they holdup their posture In their body,
in their body, posture In theirarms.
Sonia (38:04):
Their arms After 10 letters.
They're like you know, it getsmessier and messier.
So I am noticing that there isnot that stamina of writing,
because I don't think that it'shappening in classrooms as much
as it used to.
We went through a look.
I'll answer this quickly.
(38:26):
First, before I forget,handwriting is imperative, so it
it has been shown that thatkinesthetic experience of
learning is needed so the, thebody, the body.
Learning is needed, so the factthat you're acting on it is
needed exactly so if we just sayfocusing on letters and
(38:47):
building that knowledge ofsounds to letter, it is more
impactful when the child or whenthe student is writing,
handwriting the letter and I'vespoken to ots about this and
some other experts around iteven things like um you know how
(39:08):
you get your ipad apps and theymight um say trace, yes, yes,
it's actually more effective forthat child to pick up a writing
tool, pencil, text or whatevercrayon, whatever it may be, to
to consolidate that learning thewiring.
Dana (39:26):
So it's not just with their finger.
No, it has to have a tool.
Yes, the tool will help.
Sonia (39:31):
Yes, yeah, okay, what I'd say to that early is it's
important, all right.
So I think we can't fighttechnology, it is a part of our
life.
But I think that we have tostay educated and, on top of
what we allow to disappear forour students and the impacts and
(39:53):
the consequences of you know,handwriting was out of fashion,
it was boring, it was rotelearning.
Dana (39:58):
It's like cursive, exactly .
Sonia (40:01):
So things are going to evolve.
We can never stop things fromevolving, but let's do it with
awareness, I think.
As children get older, then yes, then we head into.
Okay, let's teach them typingand let's get into the laptop
and things like that.
So I'm not anti-technology andputting laptops into classrooms.
(40:21):
But in those really early yearsit's pertinent, in my opinion,
that they are writing withpencils, crayons, texters,
something, something.
Dana (40:33):
So if a child has poor body awareness, so they don't
know where their hand is inrelation to their body, is it
okay for them to experience liketracing letters and writing
with their fingers?
Yes, yeah, yeah, because thatwould probably be the precursor
(40:55):
to holding the tool right.
Sonia (40:57):
Absolutely yeah, and in that the matameo the matameo
training you know that's allabout.
Oh, you holding, holding thecrayon, yes, so it's building
that concept of body awarenessand their place in space first
foremost so I think there's aprogression of development and
skills and experiences that achild needs before they even
(41:19):
pick up a pencil and I also knowwith handwriting and spelling.
Dana (41:24):
I've worked with some children that if they're not
holding the tool of their choicecorrectly, you know they're
being corrected really early.
Yeah, that then um impactstheir self, um confidence.
Then they don't want to pick itup and I always say to parents
let them do what they need to donow, just to get confident.
(41:45):
And also, around the spelling,I often say let them write like
they're right, because that istheir interest in literacy.
That's innate.
So often I think we as adultswe're like those eagles from up
above we start hovering overchildren that are just starting,
(42:05):
just starting too early, and westart to correct them way too
early and then they don't feel asense of self as a writer
themselves, as self as a well, Iguess, yeah, as a pen holder.
And I know for some of thechildren that I work with,
they've got high anxiety.
(42:26):
Yeah, so then they just drop itand then that's it.
Yeah, so the more I found, themore time we give children time
to explore themselves as writersand then we start correcting
slowly.
Yeah, but you know, positively,I think children feel like,
yeah, I'm a writer, yeah, youcan correct me now because I've
written a lot.
Yeah, does that make sense forsure?
Sonia (42:48):
I know, in my own classroom I used to have oh,
what was it?
Two, two wishes.
No, oh, two stars and one wish.
So I always made sure that itwas like oh, I love the way, and
with feedback, genuine feedback, I love the way you used a
(43:09):
capital letter, that is great.
The way you used that full stop, oh, and I wish that next time,
you know, because it was twostars and a wish or something
like that.
You know, next time that youwrite, maybe consider putting a
comma in this spot Nice.
Something like that Nice.
No one likes to be criticisedall the time.
Dana (43:28):
No, and a lot of our kids because they're already behind
the eight ball and they've gotso many difficulties, they're
very sensitive to who they areand they've got that low
self-esteem.
So it's about them having thatspace to be successful and try
things out and be creative.
I guess, yeah, that's important, yeah Right, yeah Great.
(43:52):
So we've talked about thechallenges that a child may have
.
You know what the signs mightbe that they might have literacy
challenges, and so at what agecould parents start supporting
their children's literacy skills?
Ah, birth.
Sonia (44:13):
No, genuinely, I mean that with sincerity, because it
is.
You know that, matame.
I love that training where weare literally looking at our
child in the eyes and we'resaying, oh, smiling, and we're
using that language andconnection together.
So that's where it starts, it'sconnection through
(44:35):
communication.
And for me that's what literacyis about.
It's your ability to communicateand do it as successfully as
you possibly can.
So you're you're this likeempowered human being?
Um contributing the way thatyou choose to contribute in
society?
Um.
So it starts from very early on, and I remember going to italy,
(44:57):
um about five years ago, and Iwas listening to this child, I
think she was about two or three.
And her language and what wascoming out of her mouth.
It blew me away, you know.
And then I was observing theway that a mother was connecting
with a child on a bus, and itwas this constant talking you
(45:22):
know, like talking justconstantly.
Beautiful conversations, oh wow.
So I think it just starts withsomething as simple as that and
you know making it.
I love books, so it's difficultfor me.
I love reading, like readingwas always part of our bedtime
routine you know and I loved itas a parent sharing that they
(45:45):
did painting at home, they didPlay-Doh, so it, and it didn't
help that I was studying theearly years.
Yes, you know, but it starts.
Dana (45:53):
Well, it did help, it did help, it did help.
Sonia (45:56):
But you know it starts off.
You know rhyming games, bingogames in the car I spy my little
eye something rhyming with B,oh, it's a tree.
Dana (46:10):
It's the immersion in your life, in everyday life, yeah,
nice, yeah, and it's abouthaving fun.
Yeah, and not thinking oh, I'mteaching literacy.
No, literacy is everywhere,it's everywhere, it's everywhere
.
Sonia (46:22):
Yeah, literacy is everywhere, it's everywhere,
it's everywhere.
Dana (46:24):
Yeah, and even like, if you're in the car, literacy is
in the stop signs, in the gosigns, in the red, green and
orange and you know all of thosethings because a lot of kids
that we work with love signs yes.
Sonia (46:42):
Yes.
Dana (46:43):
Absolutely.
Sonia (46:44):
Just on that note, just a quick be aware you know if a
child has dyslexia, the fact,because what happens?
I think a lot of you know.
Look, reading is important andand it's important because a
it's a connection and you getthose feel good vibes with books
and that experience ofconnecting and it exposes
children to a wider range ofvocab which is super important.
(47:06):
I just don't want parents thatmaybe, if their child has
dyslexia or something, think, oh, is it because I didn't read to
them as a child?
Oh, yeah, you know, and or if Ireally read to my child, that'll
mean they'll be really, reallygood at reading or writing when
they get to school.
It's not coming from that space.
(47:28):
All that is meant to do is justopening up the experience, that
, that love and that immersionof literacy and language within
the home.
Um, so if your child's going tohave difficulties, I'll have
difficulties even if you did dothe reading and the.
Yeah, you know, they willAbsolutely.
So I want to make sure thatparents are aware of that, so
they're not thinking they didanything.
Dana (47:49):
So, which brings me to the next question what if parents
are dyslexic themselves or haveliteracy challenges?
You know what then?
Yeah, what a challenging Look,you know is there help for them,
(48:10):
like, do they need to learn toread and write?
You know what's been yourexperience.
Have you ever worked withparents that have got literacy
challenges?
Sonia (48:21):
No, dana, I would love to and our common friend Tony.
I have been speaking to herabout this.
I've just got roadblock afterroadblock.
I would love to be able tosupport adults who you know
maybe are literate or somethinglike that, that would want to
learn how to read and write.
And not just for people withEALD?
(48:42):
You know immigrants coming in?
I'm talking about you knowpeople that have maybe been here
a while or never got thesupport they needed.
But it's tricky.
I've rung up TAFE.
I'm like, look, I'm a literacyspecialist.
I work with younger studentsand teenagers.
How can I help adults?
Because I'd love to do that andI've looked into doing further
(49:04):
study, but I I have not beensuccessful yet.
But what I'd say to that is asif, if you suspect it for
yourself and if you want to seeksupport, um, I would, I would
love that experience, um, but ifyou still don't let it stop you
like I think there might be abit of an embarrassment about
(49:25):
admitting, even for their ownchild, as someone who has
difficulties with language andliteracy don't let that stop you
from getting the support thatyour child needs.
And if someone was to say to melook, I had this experience
within school and as an adult, Iwould think of them as well.
How courageous are you to cometo me and talk?
(49:48):
To me about that and you'rewanting to kind of break that
cycle for your own child, soyeah, so basically, um, adults
who have got literacy challengesand who are afraid to speak up.
Dana (50:02):
I know it's always confronting to face your own, I
guess your own perceivedweaknesses, but it's not a
weakness because, at the sametime, you may not have had the
neurology to learn the literacy,or you may not have had the
(50:23):
opportunity or the rightenvironment, and what you're
saying, sonia, is.
Sonia is there in support toExcel, to support you, and even
if you came and did a fewsessions just to try and see how
that goes for you.
And I do think I have seenpeople that have had literacy
(50:46):
issues, that have learnt to read, and not necessarily write, but
learnt to read and at leastjust learnt to identify.
You know some general thingsbecause, at the end of the day,
reading is such an importanttool in our daily life, you know
, to keep ourselves safe, tokeep ourselves secure, to know
(51:08):
what we're signing, to give us apower, so empowering ourselves.
So I think it is very importantto just, you know, face your
own fears.
And it's okay, because I'msitting right in front of Sonia
and she's a beautiful, warmperson and I know that she will
(51:33):
envelop you and want to help you.
Yeah, so that would be reallynice.
That would be so important it'scourageous isn't it, it is very
courageous.
Any of those fears?
Yeah, and just on that, dana,you know it's an, isn't it?
It is very courageous any ofthose fears?
Sonia (51:44):
yeah, and just on that dana, you know it's a, it's an
issue of, if you look at um theimprisonment, um, yes,
demographic and that linkbetween illiteracy and, you know
, imprisonment maybe that'swhere you need to start possibly
go to the prisons, go to theprisons.
Dana (52:06):
So I know, um, through your experiences, that some
cultures value literacy overplay, even if their child is
seeking play and developmentallythey may not be ready to be
sitting still, yeah at a tableto want to learn to read.
Yeah, or may they may like we,or they might not even be
interested in books.
(52:27):
They might be tearing books orflicking books or flipping books
.
Could you speak to that please?
You know, like, are allchildren coming to you and going
?
Yeah, I'm ready to sit and read.
Like, in your support to Excel,what type of children come to
you.
Are they movers?
(52:48):
Are they, you know?
Do they just want to play?
How do you deal with thosechildren?
Sonia (52:57):
Okay, first and foremost, with regards to the child that
might be ripping pages, I wouldcome from the premises that you
meet the child where they're at,because if you're doing
anything else it's not going tobe effective.
So you meet the child wherethey're at and in that case I
would have got a book that wasmaybe made from material, or a
(53:22):
hardcover book or something likethat, or cardboard.
You know something.
Not kind of giving up.
It's how can we make this workfor this child?
that flexibility of thinkingLook, all the students that I
have, I suppose, do have thatcapacity to be able to sit,
(53:44):
because look it is a one-on-one,one-hour session and it is
intense.
We probably do five ten-minutelittle activities, so it's quite
fast-paced and you know, I makesure that we get a brain break
in between there and try and beengaging as possible and we play
(54:04):
a game at the end and thingslike that.
But look at this point, all mystudents are able to be able to
sit side by side.
Some have a more maybe a fixedmindset towards the experience
and who they are as a learner.
Maybe they don't want to bethere at the moment with
(54:25):
literacy.
But yeah, I think the firstthing is always meeting the
child where they're at and Ithink my benefit of having the
early years experience is I haveeven though I'm an explicit,
structured teacher, I teach fromthat.
I have the flexibility to somedegree to be able to kind of
(54:47):
think okay, well, how can I meetthis child in this moment?
Dana (54:51):
And maybe for those younger children that are more
movers, sonia, it might beworthwhile for the parent to be
in that room and you to givethem some ideas and they take
home to try them at home.
Yeah, and then you'reconsulting more to the parents.
Yeah, you know like you come upwith so many great ideas like
(55:14):
use the Play-Doh, do this, dothat, use the soft book rather
than so.
I think that would also bereally lovely for parents to
have you coaching them.
Is this what you?
Try this, try that, becausecoming up with those ideas is
very hard.
Sonia (55:30):
Yeah, for parents and you're always, that's your bread
and butter yeah, yeah, that'show much to do this too, okay,
so that would be good now.
Dana (55:40):
So we've just started to talk about your business Support
to Excel and how could parentscontact you and do you have
waiting lists?
Sonia (55:52):
I do have a waiting list, dana, so I feel very fortunate
I have people that I have.
Look, I'm honestly happy tohave a chat because what I want
for parents even if and if I canhandle it like you know, I've
got the time but I'm happy forpeople to call me, even if they
(56:13):
don't, you know, in the end theygo.
Look, I want to get support.
Right now, many opt to go on mywait list, but I'm happy to
have a chat and put them intothe direction of where they
might be able to get help andwhat to look for when you're
looking for an experienced,quality specialist tutor.
(56:37):
I want them to feel empowered.
These are the questions youmight ask if you're looking for
someone.
Dana (56:44):
These are the questions you might ask if you're looking
for someone.
So one of your services is aninformation consult and that is
really good because I thinkinformation consult is really
important for parents.
And it's a paid service, whichis good because, you know,
(57:06):
sometimes these chats do take awhile and your skills are super.
You know like what you give isjust so worth it to parents and
I can see even just you, havingchatted with my staff today.
It's just, you know, you are aspecialist in your field so
parents can contact you for aninformation consult.
(57:29):
Yeah.
Yeah that's great.
That's great.
So, sonia, just wrapping uptoday this amazingly informative
conversation, what would be thethree things you would like to
say to parents today aroundsupporting their child's
development and their literacyskills, both as an experienced
(57:53):
literacy teacher and consultant,as well as a mother yourself?
Sonia (58:01):
Okay, firstly, is that immersion within the home, that
that love of you know, whetherit's singing or getting out in
the garden and talking about theplants and the flowers, whether
it's getting big butcher paperand putting it on the back of
(58:24):
the door and painting or gettingsome Play-Doh like, just make
it a very natural, organic partof life and curiosity.
You know I'm a really curiousperson.
I genuinely love learning andusually got about five or six
books on my bedside because Ican't get enough of it.
So just that, you know wonderfulservices that we have in
(58:48):
Australia getting out to thelibrary and going to story time,
which is free.
I think they've got a bubs andsinging and something you can
sing nursery rhymes together.
So just that joy, that joy ofliteracy and just learning in
general and being curious aboutthe world and seeing it with
(59:09):
wonder.
And allow yourself I know it'shard, I haven't forgotten those
days where you haven't had ashower and things like that but
allow yourself to have fun withit too.
Yeah, and I would also saytrust your instinct.
If you're observing things thatare concerning you, ask people,
(59:35):
seek support, even if it's justme or a friend or a they could.
Dana (59:41):
They could contact you for that information.
Sonia (59:43):
Consult right the information consult, Ask a
teacher, and if you don't getthe answer that you want or
you're not satisfied with itbecause they're just
professionals and sometimesprofessionals make mistakes but.
If you're humans.
Keep trusting your instinct andinvestigate further.
(01:00:04):
If you think that somethingneeds further inquiry for your
child, do it and feel empoweredto do that.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know if Ican think of a third.
Just have a good time.
Dana (01:00:22):
Have a good time and be in the moment.
I think that's what I got fromyou today.
Sonia (01:00:25):
Be in the moment.
Dana (01:00:26):
Be in the moment it's so important and have confidence in
yourself.
Yeah, and I think I just wantto you know, summarise for those
parents that are listening andthey're feeling oh wow, I think
I need to look at my ownliteracy skills.
Definitely reach out to Sonia,have an information, consult
(01:00:48):
with Sonia and you know Soniawill be able to ask the right
questions and if she can't help,she'll definitely be able to
give you some suggestions whereyou can go and get help.
Sonia (01:01:00):
Yeah.
Dana (01:01:00):
Okay, thank you so much, sonia, for being on our podcast.
This podcast will be ofinterest to many people, I'm
hoping many parents and manyspeech pathologists and other
professionals, because I thinkwe all have a perception of
literacy and until we dive deepwith someone like yourself who
(01:01:27):
is in the know about all thelatest research and development,
we still keep on thinking thatyou know those old ways of doing
things are the new ways, whichthey're not, because this area
is developing all the time.
It is a science and it'sevolving, yeah, so thank you
(01:01:48):
Sonia, Thank you Donna.
Hi, Sonia, hello, Welcome to the Empowered Parent Podcast.
I'm really, really excited tohave you on the program today
because your area of specialtyand passion is very interesting
for, and important for, many ofthe parents listening today and
(00:21):
many of the parents that I knowI've worked with listening today
and many of the parents that Iknow I've worked with.
Sonia, you are a literacyextraordinaire, a literacy
teacher.
You're qualified in teachingboth preschool and school age
children and, after many, manyyears of experience in the
school system, including specialeducation, you established your
(00:43):
wonderful and much neededorganization, support to Excel,
and we're going to have the linkto this organization in our
notes below.
Before we start talking aboutSupport to Excel and how you
help children and families,sonia, could you please talk a
(01:03):
little bit about yourself andhow did you come to be a teacher
and why the interest inliteracy?
Sonia (01:12):
Great question.
Thank you, Dana.
I'm very happy to be here andjust to share a little snapshot
of myself.
So, thank you, I feel veryprivileged to be here.
Okay Well, my journey intoteaching in my 20s I made a
decision.
I went and did my degree and Iwas just kind of floating in
life going, oh, I don't knowwhat I want to do, I don't know
(01:34):
what I want to be, and so Ithink I took on that external
chatter of, oh well, most peoplework in an office.
So I went and you know, I didmy degree and then I went and
worked in an office and I workedin insurance.
So I did that for I think itwas about 10 years and I was
just like this is crushing mysoul, so I couldn't do it.
(02:00):
I realised I had my children.
So I had my first child, amber,and then I went back to work
part-time.
I was like, look, it waspart-time work, it fitted,
having kids.
And then I had my second child,I had some time off and then it
was time to go back to work andI was like I can't do it, I
(02:21):
just can't sit and work in anoffice.
Dana (02:24):
I needed purpose.
Sonia (02:25):
I just can't sit and work in an office.
I needed purpose.
I'm someone I've realised thatI just need purpose to get up
and, yeah, to work.
So I made the decision.
I said to my husband.
I said I've actually alwayswanted to do teaching.
I've always loved children,I've always had a very good
connection with young children.
(02:46):
And you know, honestly, I waslike this was my second degree.
I was like, nah, I'm just goingto put it out there.
But yeah, I said, look, I thinkI'm going to go do early years
teaching.
And so he's like, yeah, I thinkyou should, and I did so.
I did my Masters in early yearsteaching it.
I think you should, and I didso.
I did my Master's in EarlyYears Teaching.
(03:07):
It was a two-year degree I had,but it took me five years.
I had young kids, I was workingand I just did it at my own
pace.
And, yeah, that was a change inmy life and where I thought I
was going to go.
So it ignited that sense ofhaving passion and purpose
(03:29):
within work, which is important.
So really, I think my childrenwere the impetus of that change.
Wow, yeah, I do Wow.
Dana (03:40):
And why literacy?
Because there's so much inteaching, isn't there?
Why literacy?
Sonia (03:48):
Two main reasons.
I was actually doing an NLPcourse with Tony.
We both know.
Dana (03:52):
Tony.
Sonia (03:55):
And she was demonstrating the spelling technique and one
of the participants actually gotup and she started crying and
she said I thought I was dumb mywhole life and I'm embarrassed
to say this, but it shocked me.
I went oh my God, how manychildren, how many students are
(04:20):
walking out of our schoolsystems feeling less than
feeling dumb and holding on tothat.
I was like that doesn't sitwith me right, because I know,
as a teacher and someone whoteaches literacy skills,
spelling it needs to be taught.
It doesn't equate tointelligence and there's so many
(04:41):
facets of intelligence anywayin my opinion.
But it doesn't equate tointelligence, it just means that
you need to be supported andgiven the structure and the
support and the actual explicitteaching to gain that skill.
So that was actually the momentwhere I was like I've got to do
something about this, lovely.
(05:02):
And then that developed intoliteracy.
And secondly, in early yearsand it works differently in
different countries, I believe.
But look, I felt quiteoverwhelmed as an early years
teacher, I felt like I had to bea jack of all trades.
I had to get my pulse onnumeracy, get my pulse on
(05:24):
literacy, get my pulse onsupporting our children socially
, emotionally, get my pulse onscience, for God's sake.
Sometimes I had to be a PEteacher.
And I just felt like I'm thesort of person I need mastery, I
need to really focus on a skilland really give myself that
opportunity to develop it.
So that was probably one of thesecond reasons is I really
(05:48):
wanted to just focus on literacyand develop that skill.
And I think maybe I'm a bit ofa language nerd because I study
Italian as well.
Dana (05:57):
Language is your thing, right For fun, and I think the
you know what you're saying.
That probably resonates with alot of teachers.
You know teachers feel likethey've got to be
jack-of-all-trades for so manychildren.
Yeah, and you know, somechildren do fall through the
gaps.
Yes, and you know that could bebecause there's not enough
(06:19):
resources in the school.
It could also be that the childis not ready to take on the
information, the way theinformation is delivered to them
, and that's why I think yourorganisation support to Excel is
so important, because it giveschildren that time to focus on
(06:41):
their literacy and you also workin a way that the children, you
know, can take on thatinformation, you know, rather
than it's in a big room with alot of other children, a lot of
distractions.
You know they're coming to you,Sonia, and you're such a warm
and giving person.
I can feel it, you know, andthe children would want to be
(07:02):
with you and I'm sure that youwould make literacy fun as best.
I can feel it, you know, andthe children would want to be
with you and I'm sure that youwould make literacy fun as best
I can.
Sonia (07:10):
I'd like to say that all of them are like Sonia's coming
today, but it's not like that.
But look, one thing that I amis is extremely patient.
I am compassionate and I thinkwhat I've one of my strengths as
a teacher is I'm always able toreally see that child and
connection always comes firstfor me.
I think children need to knowthat you care and that you see
(07:33):
them just like us and that youbelieve in them Absolutely.
Dana (07:37):
So if we're not believing in the children and we're
thinking just from the problempoint of view, then the children
are going to have problems.
So we really need to look more.
I always talk aboutstrengths-based perspective.
That's so important.
So, Sonia, is there anyresearch on how many children
(07:59):
have literacy difficulties?
Sonia (08:02):
Look, the other day I came across something that said
one third of our students, youknow, are below competency in
literacy.
I'll talk anecdotally.
Dana (08:17):
If that's okay.
Sonia (08:18):
Yes, definitely so just from my own experience and what
I've seen and my connections.
For one example, I worked witha boy.
When I first met him he was 15,you know, like a mild
intellectual disability and somecomplex things going on for him
at home and stuff.
(08:38):
But you know, when I first methim he was probably at a year
one to year two level, at 15years of age, and that was quite
shocking to me because I waslike okay, how, how does this
boy get through a system and itjust gets missed or pushed aside
.
You know so for me that's anexample of a failure of a system
(09:02):
in education.
You know my experiences ofworking in certain areas there
are a lot of children who arestruggling.
You mean demographics,demographically, yeah, yeah,
there was a lot of my studentswere struggling.
There's a real disparitybetween you know, those children
(09:23):
that were the haves and thehave-nots.
Dana (09:24):
Exactly, yeah yeah, there's a real disparity between
, you know, those children thatwere the haves and the have-nots
.
Yeah yeah, and why do you thinkthat is?
Is that because the schoolsystems haven't got the
resources or the familieshaven't got the resources, or
both?
Or is there not that emphasison literacy in different
demographic areas, or is it justa mixture?
Sonia (09:47):
Okay, look, I think that unfortunately, what's happened
is in education, we have latchedonto how we'll approach
literacy in fads, in trends, infads in trends, and latching
(10:08):
onto things that are implementedfrom top down, that sound
romantic, lovely pedagogy butdon't work on a practical level
within classrooms and don'tactually help our students to
learn.
So we've come from withinliteracy what we call whole
language.
So I suppose this is built onthe premises that when we
(10:32):
develop oral language, we'lldevelop that quite naturally
just from being in our homeenvironment.
Dana (10:38):
Right.
Sonia (10:38):
Okay, you know, I suppose through this osmosis sort of
process.
But we know now that languageand literacy development,
reading and and writing does nothappen that way, and so we took
on this very, this wholelanguage.
we, you know, we just would putkids in there and we'd say look,
let's see what they can do withbooks and we'd let them explore
(11:01):
and um more of a constructivistsort of approach, I suppose, to
teaching literacy and what wesee now, like I know myself,
Dana, I've had to teach myselfspelling conventions and learn
rules, and I was like why did noone ever teach me as a student?
I would love to have known thatspelling pattern or convention.
(11:23):
I would love to have known thatspelling pattern or convention.
And I think now we're startingto understand that skills do
need to be taught explicitly.
There needs to be structure,and teachers ourselves within
the profession need thatprofessional development and
training and good qualitytraining, and I can tell you
(11:46):
that when I left university,what was a phoneme?
Dana (11:50):
I don't know what a phoneme is.
I don't know what phonologicalwitness.
Sonia (11:52):
I think I remember it from my exam and there was a lot
of pedagogy, a lot of pedagogy,but how do I practically
actually teach children how toread.
I have to work that out myselfand that's.
You know, that's tough and yeahyeah.
Dana (12:09):
So is there a mixture now of different approaches in
classrooms or is like, is theeducation system using one
approach?
Sonia (12:19):
no, no, no and I remember , even with my own, when, with
my daughters, I rememberspeaking to her teacher and
saying oh so how do you teachliteracy?
Do you do it like in a unifiedway?
Is everyone following a sort ofa structure?
No, everyone had their own sortof different way of teaching
reading and writing in theirclassroom.
(12:41):
It's very hot potch sort ofapproach.
I'm hoping that it will changeand not to the point where we're
all military format that's notwhat I'm talking about where
diversity has no place.
I'm not talking about that but.
I'm talking about knowing yourstuff, knowing your content so
(13:03):
that you can confidently teachour children with flexibility.
Dana (13:10):
I guess, numeracy right.
When we're looking at numeracy,we're looking at addition,
subtraction, multiplication.
That's definitely taught indrill and it's explicitly taught
.
So literacy would be verysimilar.
Because it is symbols.
We're learning about symbols,how they go together, what
(13:32):
symbols go, when they go, howthey all form words.
And I think, yeah, we have lostthat perspective.
And what about?
You know, I hear reading eggsaround the place.
You know, is that somethingthat parents could be investing
(13:53):
in, or Look, I haven't looked atthat for a while.
But is that a program?
It is a program, yeah.
Sonia (14:03):
I couldn't honestly answer that I'd have to look
into it.
Yeah, it is a program.
Yeah, I couldn't honestlyanswer that.
I'd have to look into it.
Yeah, it depends.
Some programs are better thanothers.
Yes, yes, that's the way theyteach literacy.
You've got to look at scope andsequence of literacy.
Yes, I'll give you one example,donna.
Dana (14:18):
Yes.
Sonia (14:19):
I would say the letter S.
Most people know that theletter S represents one sound, s
.
Yes, it represents two z.
Most of our kids aren't, sowe've got s, and then the more
common sound that it representsis z.
So a lot of our kids don'tactually know that they're like,
what are you talking about,sonia?
It only represents one sound.
Dana (14:38):
Yeah right, no at the end of a word.
Sonia (14:41):
where you hear that vibration, your voice box.
Switch on it will represent azzz sound, yes, so look, I'm
hesitant to comment on thereading eggs, because I don't.
Dana (14:51):
Yeah, yeah, but I think anything is better than nothing,
right, as long as the child isinterested.
Sonia (15:01):
Exactly, yeah, and we'll probably get into this later,
dana, but I've got you know,when my kids unfortunately or
fortunately for them, we'll seehow they see it, but because I
was studying my teaching degreewhen they were young, you know I
was in there playing games withthem.
I was doing all that stuffthrough games and play-based
approach.
So yeah, approach.
Dana (15:32):
Um, so yeah, so um, you mentioned about the um education
system a little bit.
Um, I guess you know whenparents are thinking about where
to send their children toschool and you know, should I do
private, should I do public?
If my child has literacy issues, where are they going to get
more help?
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Have you had experience aroundthat?
Parents asking you thesequestions?
Sonia (15:51):
Yes, they do, and look, I always say this is only my
opinion.
Mm-hmm, I would answer to that.
You know, just from my ownclients and I you get to know
your families fairly well youknow, and I would say, I've come
across public schools and thisis all things I hear yeah, okay.
(16:16):
But public schools.
I've come across privateschools that are doing it not so
well and I'm like horrified bywhat I hear and equally I hear
from both public and private ofthings that they're doing really
well.
What I do think is reallyimportant is that you do attend
those school tours and you askthe hard questions, like you
(16:40):
know if your child has dyslexiaor ADHD or whatever it is, or is
a bit shy, whatever it might be, you know nicely and kindly.
How is it that you couldsupport my child, my child has
dyslexia, and just gauge theresponse that you get from that
educator.
And I've always been a personthat I've gone to schools for my
(17:02):
own girls and I've just trustedmy intuition about a feeling, a
sense, an energy when I walkinto that school overall and
coming from teachers and comingfrom students, and a feeling
that I get.
Dana (17:19):
I don't think any school is perfect, no, imperfect as
human beings and also differentteachers, so you could have the
same school but differentteachers will be having a
different interest area and adifferent way of teaching.
Correct?
Can you talk to what isdyslexia?
Okay?
Sonia (17:35):
look it in simplest form.
It is difficulty with reading.
Okay, and the way that I woulddescribe it is in your typically
developing brain.
You want to get from SouthAustralia to Northern Territory
okay.
I suppose we could the analogyof reading yeah, we're going to
(17:57):
go from South Australia directroute, we're going to Northern
Territory.
The dyslexic brain will headover to Perth and then it might
head over to Victoria, then itmight go back to I don't know,
perth, queensland, and then itmight head up to Northern
Territory.
Okay so it's a wiring of thebrain, and so the thing with
(18:21):
dyslexia is and this is where itcan get tricky in big
classrooms is they will need topractice, repeat, practice,
repeat, practice, repeat untilthey consolidate that learning
and they'll do it at a differentrate to their peers, and I've
(18:42):
worked with various kind of.
You know there's many shades ofdyslexia, and then you have
other complications.
Some of our children have thatneurodiversity of, they'll have
dyslexia plus ADHD.
Dana (18:55):
So does dyslexia often go undiagnosed, or are children
being diagnosed early these days?
I think it's improving.
Sonia (19:06):
I know, when my girls were at school, we used, you
know, as teachers.
We weren't horrible people.
This is just what we weretaught, is that?
Oh look, you know, even if theywere noticing difficulties in,
say, reception, oh look, wereally need to wait to age seven
?
to see if they grow out of that.
(19:28):
So thank God for you knowpeople like Bill Hansberry.
We are becoming more aware ofdyslexia I don't think we really
took it seriously and thedetrimental effects and impacts
that that can have on a childand their pace of learning, but
(19:48):
not only that.
Their confidence aboutthemselves is who they are as a
learner.
So I think we're getting better.
I think we've always got a lotmore to go, a long way to go.
Dana (19:59):
Yeah, always got a lot more to go, a long way to go.
Yeah, yeah, how would parentsnotice if we're a young child
that they might start havingliteracy issues?
You know, I've seen somechildren, even when they're you
know, trying to write or dosomething.
Instead of going from left toright, they go from right to
(20:21):
left.
They, you know I've seen somechildren write their letters
backwards and things like that.
So what would be some thingsthat parents can be aware of,
just to know about their youngerchildren?
that might be having someliteracy challenges that is a
great question, dana.
Sonia (20:41):
Number one is I mean we, we can actually even from an
early age, before, I suppose,formalized to school.
If your child is um not meetingtheir milestones with
expressive language, it can bean indicator and receptive
language so that's something tothat often goes hand in hand.
(21:01):
So if a child is eventuallydiagnosed with dyslexia, parents
will have to say oh yeah, he,he did talk that little bit
later than everyone else, sothat's so that's the talking and
understanding.
Dana (21:13):
Yeah, that children may not understand everything that's
said to them or be able tofollow directions and not able
to express themselves verballyyeah, yeah, so that, those, so
that those I'm talking two,those early three, you know
those early years of where achild should be, how many words
they should be saying et cetera.
Sonia (21:32):
Yes, so that is probably number one.
I from say kindy age.
Some of the sort of signalsthat we can be looking out for
are hopefully we're looking atthings like rhyming, working
with rhyming, working withsyllables at that age,
alliteration, so alliteration,you know, apple, ant, that sort
(21:54):
of thing.
So those phonemes, those sounds, Often there is a weakness in
phonological awareness, so beingable to hear those units of
sounds, in language.
So if you've got that kid whereafter a while they're still not
picking up on that rhyming orthat syllabification is complex
(22:14):
for them, that could also be anindicator.
Look, I've read various thingsabout you know reversals with B
and D.
Dana (22:29):
I read once it just said look, that is where they are at
developmentally.
Sonia (22:31):
It is a common letter but they will have problems
distinguishing differencebetween the structure of letters
, the actual physical structureand I do see it with my dyslexic
children.
It is very common the B and Dreversals.
Another thing to really lookout for, I suppose for reception
(22:53):
age, is those kids that arereally struggling with that
letter to sound association.
So, when most of their peers.
So, for an example, if we'vegot the letter, what's a good
one, basically n, and most ofour kids can go okay, I see the
letter n.
I know that represents thesound for a child that's
(23:15):
struggling.
They out of 10 times, theymight get it twice.
And so imagine if you, if, ifit's a code, and then we ask
them to blend those codestogether.
Dana (23:25):
Yeah right.
Sonia (23:26):
And they're like hang on, what does that letter represent
again?
And we're asking them to readphonetically they're the sort of
things that we should really belooking out for.
Dana (23:36):
When we're teaching children.
I know a lot of parents come inand they're modelling sounds to
children or they're trying tohelp them with their literacy.
When children are young, shouldwe be teaching them the sound
way like but, or should we beteaching be you know?
Should we yes?
Sonia (23:58):
Yes, I've had those questions myself as a teacher.
Look, I would say both arereally important.
Okay, so we say that knowledgeof sounds are important for
reading, but we must know thoseletter names for spelling.
So, as a parent, I would beteaching both.
So we know that a dog is a dog,but a dog goes roof.
(24:21):
So, yes, we have a name for it,but it makes a sound.
Yes, okay, and really importanttoo, alphabet knowledge.
I am shocked or surprised, justsurprised at how many of our
students can't put the alphabetin order from A to Z, and it's
(24:42):
like wow, but can they sing thesong and not put the alphabet in
order from A to Z?
Dana (24:44):
And I was like, wow, but can they sing the song and not
put the alphabet in order?
Sonia (24:46):
Yeah, because they're not really connecting with it, or
there's L-M-N-O-V, l-m-n-o-v.
L-m-n-o-v is just not oneletter.
Dana (24:53):
It's not L-M-N-O-V.
Yeah, yeah okay.
Sonia (24:55):
So I would highly encourage both but Both, but
again in fun ways.
Dana, you know not necessarily,look, if your kid's into
flashcards, go knock yourselfout.
Dana (25:07):
But in fun ways, like magnets, exactly.
I know we could use shavingcream and draw in the shaving
cream, yes.
Painting, yes, you know, withyour fingers.
So if the child is very bodyoriented, yes, and I also know
what we've done in the past isyou know you could use pasta and
(25:29):
make things with pasta on the,you know, on the tabletop, and
take photos of the bee, or do itwith your own body.
Let's make an app with yourbody and.
I'll take a photo, see if it'sthere.
Yes, so these are all.
If it's there.
Yes, so these are all the ways,right?
Yes, Depends on what yourchild's interested in.
Sonia (25:47):
Absolutely.
Another really good one is, youknow, putting the fingers
together and getting them todraw it out in the air.
Dana (25:56):
That's nice, yes.
Sonia (25:58):
Yeah, there's so many fun and, I would say, organic ways.
Dana (26:03):
Yes.
Sonia (26:04):
To bring literacy into your home, into a preschool and,
you know, then eventually intoschools, et cetera.
Dana (26:12):
Yeah, great, I love that.
I love that Also, sonia, I'veread that in Finland that
Finland's got one of the besteducation systems in the world.
The children start there atseven years of age, and
beforehand the emphasis is onplay.
Yeah, have you heard about thisand if so, could you speak to
(26:33):
this please?
Sonia (26:35):
Oh, of course, I've heard of Finland, renowned Finland.
Look, I know a little bit aboutit, and, yes, we all know,
especially as an early yearsteacher, that we've all got to
move to Finland because teachersare very respected over there,
kids get to play outdoors andit's all warm and fuzzy.
Look, I think it's important,as Australia, that we do look to
(26:57):
countries that are doing itbetter than us.
We look at their strengths.
I would say, though, a cautionis to not romanticise those
countries and their educationsystem, because that education
(27:17):
system is unique to theircontext.
It's unique to who they are as apeople, to their culture, to
their society, to their history,to their physical environment.
So you know, I don't think it'spossible to emulate or go plonk
.
Let's put the Finland systeminto Australia, because we have
our own uniqueness.
Dana (27:37):
We are a different people different culture.
Sonia (27:41):
So, yes, look at our strengths, I would.
I think our kids need to beoutdoors more.
And it makes me sad.
It makes me genuinely sad thatour kids are in front of so much
technology, yeah, yeah, and Ithink a lot of the behaviours
(28:03):
that we see in classrooms, a lotof the behaviours that we're
seeing, is because our kids needto be out with nature, immersed
in nature.
Dana (28:12):
And also that helps them with their own self-awareness,
self-identity, eyesight yes,there's a lot of research around
eye sight and you know whenthey're looking short distances
rather than being able to looklong distances.
And just going back to thecultural thing as well, you know
(28:33):
we've got a lot of familiesfrom Asian backgrounds that
really highlight the importanceof academia.
Yeah, however, play is not verymuch part of their daily
routine.
So I think you know those twoextremes.
In Australia, we just put themtogether and think about how we
(28:55):
can be academically playful orplayful academically Absolutely
One of those.
So, yeah, yeah, the meeting ofboth worlds, right?
I think so, yeah that's greatthat's great.
So, um, sonia, what are some ofthe difficulties children may
have around their literacy andare there are the sources of
(29:18):
those difficulty?
Um, because of challenges inthe environment?
I mean, we touched this alittle bit, but in the
environment, neurology or both,from your experience?
Sonia (29:29):
I think that, look, I've worked in the past.
I've worked with children witha lot of trauma.
You know disadvantaged areas,and I have seen examples where I
know that delay in languagedevelopment delay in.
Let's go language developmentfirst before we even go.
(29:50):
Literacy was delayed due toneglect.
So here's someone who was borntypically developing, but
because of the environment, thatthat beautiful child was in,
there was neglect and there wastrauma and so that affected his
language skills and development.
So yes, there are examples whereit is environmental Things like
(30:15):
dyslexia we often say one ofthe questionnaires that an
educational psychologist willask you is was there language
difficulties history, languagedifficulties within a family?
So we know that generally thatthat is passed on genetically
dyslexia.
I think probably a lot of ourparents may be undiagnosed
(30:38):
because we just diagnoseddyslexia back then and that's
just their normal.
Dana (30:44):
Yeah, they don't know any different.
Yeah, yeah.
Sonia (30:47):
So, look, I definitely believe that there are
biological factors, but yourenvironment will infiltrate how
you experience that and manifestthat in the world.
So, if you've got a supportivefamily, that maybe early
intervention is an option, thatmaybe it's a home where there is
(31:11):
richness in literacy andexperiences, that is going to
change that experience for thatchild.
Dana (31:18):
Yeah, and what about so vision?
And I've heard that.
So people go to anophthalmologist and they see,
you know, whether their child,whether the child can see or not
in their vision, Yep, butthere's also behavioural
ophthalmologists, where theylook and see how the brain is
(31:42):
processing the visualinformation.
Sonia (31:44):
Yes.
Dana (31:44):
Have you heard of that?
I have, because I know a lot ofparents wouldn't have heard of
that and I think there's a lotto be said about behavioural
ophthalmology, right, becauseit's training of the brain to
make the eye see what it needsto see, and that's important for
literacy.
It is.
Sonia (32:00):
I will go on that, though , Dana.
Yes, and I've actually donesome training in that area as
well.
What was I going to say?
Yeah, look.
Firstly, we'll always look ateyesight if we're thinking that
there's a problem, but this isan interesting little fact.
We think that readingdifficulty is a visual issue Yep
(32:25):
, but the research shows thatit's an actual phonological
disorder.
Dana (32:32):
Right, so the hearing, it's the hearing, yeah.
Sonia (32:35):
And another thing that thank you for reminding me is
often children who have dyslexiaattached to that is auditory
processing, so that inability totake in information and process
it yeah.
So it actually is phonologicaldifficulty.
So the ability, for example, tolook at the structure of the
(32:59):
letter N and make the connectioninternally of that sound.
So that's why I said beforethat some of the kind of signals
in early years, you know, ifthey're having real difficulty
with rhyming and they just can'thear the difference between cat
hat and bob for example, theyjust can't hear which one is
(33:23):
different.
You know that is a phonologicalsort of deficit yeah if it's
persistent, because of coursethe child needs time to
understand that concept.
So just be aware.
So always get your kids' eyeschecked out and things like that
.
That's really important becauseyou know when they get their
four-year-old health check.
(33:43):
There's only one sort of Ican't remember if it's a long
distance or something they'reonly checking for one aspect of
sight really yes.
So I would always opt to go toan optometrist or a behaviourist
optometrist.
Dana (33:58):
I think that would be, yeah, to have a look.
And it's interesting that youtalk about central auditory
processing disorder.
For the listeners that's aboutyour child can hear, but it's
the way they process theinformation.
I know there's a lot of talk inthe speech pathology field that
children can only be diagnosedwith central auditory processing
(34:21):
disorder at seven and they needto have verbal language to be
able to be diagnosed, becauseyou need to be able to hear the
difference between cat and batand you know those things.
But we work a lot with childrenthat are non-speaking.
We work a lot with childrenthat are younger and often, as
speech pathologists, we can seethat there is auditory
(34:43):
processing issues.
Yes, and we do talk to familiesabout the auditory processing
issues and often sometimes, theauditory processing issues look
like that they're veryintolerant to loud sounds or
they can't discriminate betweensounds.
You know if they're hearing abird outside or if they can hear
(35:03):
the fluorescent lamp, you knowthey're not able to pay
attention to the conversationspeech that's going on.
So I think ask either yourliteracy teacher or your speech
pathologist or your occupationaltherapist about you know, do
you think my child has auditoryprocessing challenges, just like
(35:26):
visual processing challenges,because some children have that
as well, and I know that in theearlier days, sonia, they used
to talk about red lenses orsomething like that.
Can you, I think?
Or even the, the eye patches,you know?
Um, I've seen that as well.
(35:48):
Can you talk about that alittle bit look?
Sonia (35:52):
you know, my, my mentor, I suppose my teacher bill
hansberry would go.
Dana (35:59):
That's just poo-poo you know, yeah, look because it
might be something else.
Sonia (36:05):
If you're using red colour glasses or whatever it is
, it might be that thedifficulty lies somewhere else
not necessarily helpful fordyslexia if we're just talking
about dyslexia, because it's aphonological deficit.
Look, what I say to that too,dana, is if it works for your
(36:26):
kid and you're genuinely seeingimprovements, hey, hey, try it,
give it a go.
Yeah, just be aware that itmight not, you know.
I suppose that's why it'simportant to go to someone like
maybe an educationalpsychologist, or to hopefully
get that more accurate diagnosisof what your child might be
(36:47):
experiencing so we can reallytarget the support that that
child needs.
Dana (36:52):
Nice.
Sonia (36:52):
Yes.
Dana (36:54):
Okay.
So next question, sonia the bigone what about handwriting,
with technology in abundance now, even in school systems?
I mean, all kids have gotlaptops, they've got computers,
even at an early age.
Yes, is handwriting a dying artand are children having more
(37:15):
challenges with their eye-handcoordination and fine motor
skills to be able to write?
So are their skills changingbecause their eye-hand
coordination is different on acomputer than it is to a pen and
paper?
Sonia (37:31):
Oh, I can't wait to answer this one.
Donna, you see me bursting.
Okay, just anecdotally, I cansee that my students, or the
students I work with, don't havethe stamina.
They do not have the stamina towrite and I'm not even talking
(37:53):
like half a page.
Dana (37:55):
What does that mean?
What does that look like?
I don't know the way they holdup their posture In their body,
in their body, posture In theirarms.
Sonia (38:04):
Their arms After 10 letters.
They're like you know, it getsmessier and messier.
So I am noticing that there isnot that stamina of writing,
because I don't think that it'shappening in classrooms as much
as it used to.
We went through a look.
I'll answer this quickly.
(38:26):
First, before I forget,handwriting is imperative, so it
it has been shown that thatkinesthetic experience of
learning is needed so the, thebody, the body.
Learning is needed, so the factthat you're acting on it is
needed exactly so if we just sayfocusing on letters and
(38:47):
building that knowledge ofsounds to letter, it is more
impactful when the child or whenthe student is writing,
handwriting the letter and I'vespoken to ots about this and
some other experts around iteven things like um you know how
(39:08):
you get your ipad apps and theymight um say trace, yes, yes,
it's actually more effective forthat child to pick up a writing
tool, pencil, text or whatevercrayon, whatever it may be, to
to consolidate that learning thewiring.
Dana (39:26):
So it's not just with their finger.
No, it has to have a tool.
Yes, the tool will help.
Sonia (39:31):
Yes, yeah, okay, what I'd say to that early is it's
important, all right.
So I think we can't fighttechnology, it is a part of our
life.
But I think that we have tostay educated and, on top of
what we allow to disappear forour students and the impacts and
(39:53):
the consequences of you know,handwriting was out of fashion,
it was boring, it was rotelearning.
Dana (39:58):
It's like cursive, exactly .
Sonia (40:01):
So things are going to evolve.
We can never stop things fromevolving, but let's do it with
awareness, I think.
As children get older, then yes, then we head into.
Okay, let's teach them typingand let's get into the laptop
and things like that.
So I'm not anti-technology andputting laptops into classrooms.
(40:21):
But in those really early yearsit's pertinent, in my opinion,
that they are writing withpencils, crayons, texters,
something, something.
Dana (40:33):
So if a child has poor body awareness, so they don't
know where their hand is inrelation to their body, is it
okay for them to experience liketracing letters and writing
with their fingers?
Yes, yeah, yeah, because thatwould probably be the precursor
(40:55):
to holding the tool right.
Sonia (40:57):
Absolutely yeah, and in that the matameo the matameo
training you know that's allabout.
Oh, you holding, holding thecrayon, yes, so it's building
that concept of body awarenessand their place in space first
foremost so I think there's aprogression of development and
skills and experiences that achild needs before they even
(41:19):
pick up a pencil and I also knowwith handwriting and spelling.
Dana (41:24):
I've worked with some children that if they're not
holding the tool of their choicecorrectly, you know they're
being corrected really early.
Yeah, that then um impactstheir self, um confidence.
Then they don't want to pick itup and I always say to parents
let them do what they need to donow, just to get confident.
(41:45):
And also, around the spelling,I often say let them write like
they're right, because that istheir interest in literacy.
That's innate.
So often I think we as adultswe're like those eagles from up
above we start hovering overchildren that are just starting,
(42:05):
just starting too early, and westart to correct them way too
early and then they don't feel asense of self as a writer
themselves, as self as a well, Iguess, yeah, as a pen holder.
And I know for some of thechildren that I work with,
they've got high anxiety.
(42:26):
Yeah, so then they just drop itand then that's it.
Yeah, so the more I found, themore time we give children time
to explore themselves as writersand then we start correcting
slowly.
Yeah, but you know, positively,I think children feel like,
yeah, I'm a writer, yeah, youcan correct me now because I've
written a lot.
Yeah, does that make sense forsure?
Sonia (42:48):
I know, in my own classroom I used to have oh,
what was it?
Two, two wishes.
No, oh, two stars and one wish.
So I always made sure that itwas like oh, I love the way, and
with feedback, genuine feedback, I love the way you used a
(43:09):
capital letter, that is great.
The way you used that full stop, oh, and I wish that next time,
you know, because it was twostars and a wish or something
like that.
You know, next time that youwrite, maybe consider putting a
comma in this spot Nice.
Something like that Nice.
No one likes to be criticisedall the time.
Dana (43:28):
No, and a lot of our kids because they're already behind
the eight ball and they've gotso many difficulties, they're
very sensitive to who they areand they've got that low
self-esteem.
So it's about them having thatspace to be successful and try
things out and be creative.
I guess, yeah, that's important, yeah Right, yeah Great.
(43:52):
So we've talked about thechallenges that a child may have
.
You know what the signs mightbe that they might have literacy
challenges, and so at what agecould parents start supporting
their children's literacy skills?
Ah, birth.
Sonia (44:13):
No, genuinely, I mean that with sincerity, because it
is.
You know that, matame.
I love that training where weare literally looking at our
child in the eyes and we'resaying, oh, smiling, and we're
using that language andconnection together.
So that's where it starts, it'sconnection through
(44:35):
communication.
And for me that's what literacyis about.
It's your ability to communicateand do it as successfully as
you possibly can.
So you're you're this likeempowered human being?
Um contributing the way thatyou choose to contribute in
society?
Um.
So it starts from very early on, and I remember going to italy,
(44:57):
um about five years ago, and Iwas listening to this child, I
think she was about two or three.
And her language and what wascoming out of her mouth.
It blew me away, you know.
And then I was observing theway that a mother was connecting
with a child on a bus, and itwas this constant talking you
(45:22):
know, like talking justconstantly.
Beautiful conversations, oh wow.
So I think it just starts withsomething as simple as that and
you know making it.
I love books, so it's difficultfor me.
I love reading, like readingwas always part of our bedtime
routine you know and I loved itas a parent sharing that they
(45:45):
did painting at home, they didPlay-Doh, so it, and it didn't
help that I was studying theearly years.
Yes, you know, but it starts.
Dana (45:53):
Well, it did help, it did help, it did help.
Sonia (45:56):
But you know it starts off.
You know rhyming games, bingogames in the car I spy my little
eye something rhyming with B,oh, it's a tree.
Dana (46:10):
It's the immersion in your life, in everyday life, yeah,
nice, yeah, and it's abouthaving fun.
Yeah, and not thinking oh, I'mteaching literacy.
No, literacy is everywhere,it's everywhere, it's everywhere
.
Sonia (46:22):
Yeah, literacy is everywhere, it's everywhere,
it's everywhere.
Dana (46:24):
Yeah, and even like, if you're in the car, literacy is
in the stop signs, in the gosigns, in the red, green and
orange and you know all of thosethings because a lot of kids
that we work with love signs yes.
Sonia (46:42):
Yes.
Dana (46:43):
Absolutely.
Sonia (46:44):
Just on that note, just a quick be aware you know if a
child has dyslexia, the fact,because what happens?
I think a lot of you know.
Look, reading is important andand it's important because a
it's a connection and you getthose feel good vibes with books
and that experience ofconnecting and it exposes
children to a wider range ofvocab which is super important.
(47:06):
I just don't want parents thatmaybe, if their child has
dyslexia or something, think, oh, is it because I didn't read to
them as a child?
Oh, yeah, you know, and or if Ireally read to my child, that'll
mean they'll be really, reallygood at reading or writing when
they get to school.
It's not coming from that space.
(47:28):
All that is meant to do is justopening up the experience, that
, that love and that immersionof literacy and language within
the home.
Um, so if your child's going tohave difficulties, I'll have
difficulties even if you did dothe reading and the.
Yeah, you know, they willAbsolutely.
So I want to make sure thatparents are aware of that, so
they're not thinking they didanything.
Dana (47:49):
So, which brings me to the next question what if parents
are dyslexic themselves or haveliteracy challenges?
You know what then?
Yeah, what a challenging Look,you know is there help for them,
(48:10):
like, do they need to learn toread and write?
You know what's been yourexperience.
Have you ever worked withparents that have got literacy
challenges?
Sonia (48:21):
No, dana, I would love to and our common friend Tony.
I have been speaking to herabout this.
I've just got roadblock afterroadblock.
I would love to be able tosupport adults who you know
maybe are literate or somethinglike that, that would want to
learn how to read and write.
And not just for people withEALD?
(48:42):
You know immigrants coming in?
I'm talking about you knowpeople that have maybe been here
a while or never got thesupport they needed.
But it's tricky.
I've rung up TAFE.
I'm like, look, I'm a literacyspecialist.
I work with younger studentsand teenagers.
How can I help adults?
Because I'd love to do that andI've looked into doing further
(49:04):
study, but I I have not beensuccessful yet.
But what I'd say to that is asif, if you suspect it for
yourself and if you want to seeksupport, um, I would, I would
love that experience, um, but ifyou still don't let it stop you
like I think there might be abit of an embarrassment about
(49:25):
admitting, even for their ownchild, as someone who has
difficulties with language andliteracy don't let that stop you
from getting the support thatyour child needs.
And if someone was to say to melook, I had this experience
within school and as an adult, Iwould think of them as well.
How courageous are you to cometo me and talk?
(49:48):
To me about that and you'rewanting to kind of break that
cycle for your own child, soyeah, so basically, um, adults
who have got literacy challengesand who are afraid to speak up.
Dana (50:02):
I know it's always confronting to face your own, I
guess your own perceivedweaknesses, but it's not a
weakness because, at the sametime, you may not have had the
neurology to learn the literacy,or you may not have had the
(50:23):
opportunity or the rightenvironment, and what you're
saying, sonia, is.
Sonia is there in support toExcel, to support you, and even
if you came and did a fewsessions just to try and see how
that goes for you.
And I do think I have seenpeople that have had literacy
(50:46):
issues, that have learnt to read, and not necessarily write, but
learnt to read and at leastjust learnt to identify.
You know some general thingsbecause, at the end of the day,
reading is such an importanttool in our daily life, you know
, to keep ourselves safe, tokeep ourselves secure, to know
(51:08):
what we're signing, to give us apower, so empowering ourselves.
So I think it is very importantto just, you know, face your
own fears.
And it's okay, because I'msitting right in front of Sonia
and she's a beautiful, warmperson and I know that she will
(51:33):
envelop you and want to help you.
Yeah, so that would be reallynice.
That would be so important it'scourageous isn't it, it is very
courageous.
Any of those fears?
Yeah, and just on that, dana,you know it's an, isn't it?
It is very courageous any ofthose fears?
Sonia (51:44):
yeah, and just on that dana, you know it's a, it's an
issue of, if you look at um theimprisonment, um, yes,
demographic and that linkbetween illiteracy and, you know
, imprisonment maybe that'swhere you need to start possibly
go to the prisons, go to theprisons.
Dana (52:06):
So I know, um, through your experiences, that some
cultures value literacy overplay, even if their child is
seeking play and developmentallythey may not be ready to be
sitting still, yeah at a tableto want to learn to read.
Yeah, or may they may like we,or they might not even be
interested in books.
(52:27):
They might be tearing books orflicking books or flipping books
.
Could you speak to that please?
You know, like, are allchildren coming to you and going
?
Yeah, I'm ready to sit and read.
Like, in your support to Excel,what type of children come to
you.
Are they movers?
(52:48):
Are they, you know?
Do they just want to play?
How do you deal with thosechildren?
Sonia (52:57):
Okay, first and foremost, with regards to the child that
might be ripping pages, I wouldcome from the premises that you
meet the child where they're at,because if you're doing
anything else it's not going tobe effective.
So you meet the child wherethey're at and in that case I
would have got a book that wasmaybe made from material, or a
(53:22):
hardcover book or something likethat, or cardboard.
You know something.
Not kind of giving up.
It's how can we make this workfor this child?
that flexibility of thinkingLook, all the students that I
have, I suppose, do have thatcapacity to be able to sit,
(53:44):
because look it is a one-on-one,one-hour session and it is
intense.
We probably do five ten-minutelittle activities, so it's quite
fast-paced and you know, I makesure that we get a brain break
in between there and try and beengaging as possible and we play
(54:04):
a game at the end and thingslike that.
But look at this point, all mystudents are able to be able to
sit side by side.
Some have a more maybe a fixedmindset towards the experience
and who they are as a learner.
Maybe they don't want to bethere at the moment with
(54:25):
literacy.
But yeah, I think the firstthing is always meeting the
child where they're at and Ithink my benefit of having the
early years experience is I haveeven though I'm an explicit,
structured teacher, I teach fromthat.
I have the flexibility to somedegree to be able to kind of
(54:47):
think okay, well, how can I meetthis child in this moment?
Dana (54:51):
And maybe for those younger children that are more
movers, sonia, it might beworthwhile for the parent to be
in that room and you to givethem some ideas and they take
home to try them at home.
Yeah, and then you'reconsulting more to the parents.
Yeah, you know like you come upwith so many great ideas like
(55:14):
use the Play-Doh, do this, dothat, use the soft book rather
than so.
I think that would also bereally lovely for parents to
have you coaching them.
Is this what you?
Try this, try that, becausecoming up with those ideas is
very hard.
Sonia (55:30):
Yeah, for parents and you're always, that's your bread
and butter yeah, yeah, that'show much to do this too, okay,
so that would be good now.
Dana (55:40):
So we've just started to talk about your business Support
to Excel and how could parentscontact you and do you have
waiting lists?
Sonia (55:52):
I do have a waiting list, dana, so I feel very fortunate
I have people that I have.
Look, I'm honestly happy tohave a chat because what I want
for parents even if and if I canhandle it like you know, I've
got the time but I'm happy forpeople to call me, even if they
(56:13):
don't, you know, in the end theygo.
Look, I want to get support.
Right now, many opt to go on mywait list, but I'm happy to
have a chat and put them intothe direction of where they
might be able to get help andwhat to look for when you're
looking for an experienced,quality specialist tutor.
(56:37):
I want them to feel empowered.
These are the questions youmight ask if you're looking for
someone.
Dana (56:44):
These are the questions you might ask if you're looking
for someone.
So one of your services is aninformation consult and that is
really good because I thinkinformation consult is really
important for parents.
And it's a paid service, whichis good because, you know,
(57:06):
sometimes these chats do take awhile and your skills are super.
You know like what you give isjust so worth it to parents and
I can see even just you, havingchatted with my staff today.
It's just, you know, you are aspecialist in your field so
parents can contact you for aninformation consult.
(57:29):
Yeah.
Yeah that's great.
That's great.
So, sonia, just wrapping uptoday this amazingly informative
conversation, what would be thethree things you would like to
say to parents today aroundsupporting their child's
development and their literacyskills, both as an experienced
(57:53):
literacy teacher and consultant,as well as a mother yourself?
Sonia (58:01):
Okay, firstly, is that immersion within the home, that
that love of you know, whetherit's singing or getting out in
the garden and talking about theplants and the flowers, whether
it's getting big butcher paperand putting it on the back of
(58:24):
the door and painting or gettingsome Play-Doh like, just make
it a very natural, organic partof life and curiosity.
You know I'm a really curiousperson.
I genuinely love learning andusually got about five or six
books on my bedside because Ican't get enough of it.
So just that, you know wonderfulservices that we have in
(58:48):
Australia getting out to thelibrary and going to story time,
which is free.
I think they've got a bubs andsinging and something you can
sing nursery rhymes together.
So just that joy, that joy ofliteracy and just learning in
general and being curious aboutthe world and seeing it with
(59:09):
wonder.
And allow yourself I know it'shard, I haven't forgotten those
days where you haven't had ashower and things like that but
allow yourself to have fun withit too.
Yeah, and I would also saytrust your instinct.
If you're observing things thatare concerning you, ask people,
(59:35):
seek support, even if it's justme or a friend or a they could.
Dana (59:41):
They could contact you for that information.
Sonia (59:43):
Consult right the information consult, Ask a
teacher, and if you don't getthe answer that you want or
you're not satisfied with itbecause they're just
professionals and sometimesprofessionals make mistakes but.
If you're humans.
Keep trusting your instinct andinvestigate further.
(01:00:04):
If you think that somethingneeds further inquiry for your
child, do it and feel empoweredto do that.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know if Ican think of a third.
Just have a good time.
Dana (01:00:22):
Have a good time and be in the moment.
I think that's what I got fromyou today.
Sonia (01:00:25):
Be in the moment.
Dana (01:00:26):
Be in the moment it's so important and have confidence in
yourself.
Yeah, and I think I just wantto you know, summarise for those
parents that are listening andthey're feeling oh wow, I think
I need to look at my ownliteracy skills.
Definitely reach out to Sonia,have an information, consult
(01:00:48):
with Sonia and you know Soniawill be able to ask the right
questions and if she can't help,she'll definitely be able to
give you some suggestions whereyou can go and get help.
Sonia (01:01:00):
Yeah.
Dana (01:01:00):
Okay, thank you so much, sonia, for being on our podcast.
This podcast will be ofinterest to many people, I'm
hoping many parents and manyspeech pathologists and other
professionals, because I thinkwe all have a perception of
literacy and until we dive deepwith someone like yourself who
(01:01:27):
is in the know about all thelatest research and development,
we still keep on thinking thatyou know those old ways of doing
things are the new ways, whichthey're not, because this area
is developing all the time.
It is a science and it'sevolving, yeah, so thank you
(01:01:48):
Sonia, Thank you Donna.
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