June 13, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode of The Engineering Passion Express, we take you on a journey from being the person who knows the physics, to understanding how a system will be fabricated.
This is not a narrative episode, rather it is an interview based episode with Lance Thrailkill, owner of All Metals Fabricating. Lance is a nice guy and great person to work with. You can check them out at https://www.ametals.com
Join me and learn how an engineer can increase their value by understanding design for manufacturing. Lance also left behind some valuable pieces of information. Here are his notes:
Manufacturing Tips for Sheet Metal
https://www.ametals.com/post/design-for-manufacturing-5-tips-for-sheet-metal-bending
Optimizing for Installation
https://www.ametals.com/post/dfm-tips-to-optimize-your-part-design-for-hardware-installation
Choosing the correct steel
https://www.ametals.com/post/how-to-choose-the-right-steel-type-for-sheet-metal-fabrication
Considerations for Punched Parts
https://www.ametals.com/post/five-dfm-tips-for-punch-press-operations-in-precision-fabrication
Welding Design Tips
https://www.ametals.com/post/7-dfm-tips-for-faster-better-and-higher-quality-welding
Precision Machining
https://www.ametals.com/post/7-dfm-tips-for-your-next-precision-machining-project
Surface Finish Considerations
Thanks for listening,
Brandon Donnelly
Please connect with me on linkedin @ linkedin.com/in/brandondonnelly
The Engineering Passion Express is about growing knowledge and the passion for engineering.
If you are a conference organizer and are looking for an engineering or scientific speaker to inspire or educate in a keynote presentation, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. You can find my profile below.
Thanks for listening,
Brandon Donnelly
Please connect with me on linkedin @ linkedin.com/in/brandondonnelly
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:14):
On this episode of the Engineering Passion Express,
we'll have a guest on namedLance.
Lance is the owner of amanufacturing company, and we're
going to talk about design formanufacturing.
When I think of design formanufacturing, I'd like to think
about new tools like generativeAI software that design parts.
(00:38):
As that AI has grown incapability for engineers, there
are still areas like design formanufacturing where thoughts
outside of equations matter.
Making sure that your design canbe built that it can save an
unbelievable amount of time.
Understanding the constraints ofdifferent tools can save massive
(01:02):
costs by reducing unnecessarysteps in production.
And Lance is going to give us alittle inside knowledge about
the importance of understandingmanufacturing constraints, drop
a few hints to engineers whowant to learn more, and tell you
where you can get some moreresources on better
(01:23):
understanding the manufacturingprocess.
With that being said, let's getinto the episode and let's talk
with Lance.
Alright.
Welcome to the EngineeringPassion Express podcast.
Today we have Lance on with usfrom Alni Adult Fabrication,
generalized manufacturing aroundmetal components.
It's nice to have you on, Lance.
(01:44):
I'd like you to maybe introduceyour company a little bit and
talk about what you do.
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
I'm the third generation owner of All Metals
Fabricating, differentiatorbetween fabrication and
fabricating, because there's allmetals fabrication in Utah, but
we're all metals fabricating.
My grandfather bought thebusiness in 78, and I've been
here since 2007.
We're a contract manufacturerspecializing in sheet metal
(02:08):
fabricating, precisionmachining, welding, powder
coating, and assembly, includingelectromechanical assembly.
And so we're a one-stop shop forgiving people a complete
solution for their products.
SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
Great.
Since you guys do all of that insort of a generalized way, I
think that is a little bit of acontrast with engineers who are
sort of becoming more and morespecialized, just as technology
grows and things like that.
That's a trend that I think isonly going to continue.
I'd like to hear, Lance, yourperspective on working with
engineers who maybe don'tunderstand manufacturing at a
(02:44):
high level and maybe some of thechallenges you run into when you
deal with that.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
We have an engineering internship program
here, which we can talk moreabout later, but we believe that
it's very important that youactually understand how parts
are made before you startdesigning them.
And so a lot of the challengeswe run into are people designing
a part in a way that is notmanufacturable or would cost
(03:10):
more to manufacture it that way.
And so on a machined part makinga hole or something very
difficult to get to, or on sheetmetal having holes or
countersinks or threads tooclose to bend lines, hem nuts
not being able to be installedbecause of the design of the
part, not being able to accessthat.
(03:31):
You can't also can't have hemnuts or studs too close to bend
lines.
You have to factor that in aswell.
And so things like that would beprobably the the biggest, or
putting, for example, machiningtolerances on sheet metal parts.
So having unrealistic toleranceson sheet metal or or welded
(03:52):
parts is where we see a lot ofmistakes.
Also, parts not unfoldingproperly.
So the way you model it, makingsure that we can get the flat
pattern easily is another thing.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
Totally agree with you there.
I think in my career, especiallysince I grew up in a machining
business, what I've seen is uhmore than probably anything is
probably unreasonableexpectations on tolerances.
And that was probably thebiggest driver of increased
costs for a lot of people, atleast in my experience.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Yeah, it's as simple as like you put a machine
tolerance, uh machining millerlathe tolerance on a sheet metal
part, and like that can bedoable, but then you got to put
it on the mill for that hole.
And so that's significant setupcosts, additional programming
costs, and it's a more expensiveoperation.
(04:49):
And also people putting a commonmistake is is putting too small
of holes on too thick ofmaterial.
And so that then forces it to bemachined.
And so just knowing what insheet metal, what hole size is
appropriate for what thicknessis of material is another easy
mistake.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
I guess I'd like your opinion on why do you think
so many engineers choose not togo to into into a manufacturing
job?
I mean, my personal feeling isthey feel like you'll start them
on the wrong path in theircareer because they're
interested in maybe cars orrockets or consumer products or
things like that.
But I mean, do you have anyinsight on why you think that
is?
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Some people may think they're that's below them,
or they may not want to do hardmanual labor, not necessarily
hard, but manual labor, or justan ignorance to I think it's
probably more just an ignoranceof like the need for that, would
be my guess.
I think if people knew that thatwould help them in their career,
(05:48):
they would probably do it, butthey don't really realize that.
So would be my what what mytakeaway would be.
SPEAKER_00 (05:55):
I agree with that a little bit.
I think when you go to school asan engineer, you learn a little
bit of things like calculus andphysics, and you you want to
solve sort of these optimizationproblems for performance of a
product.
But all of that actually doesbecome pretty pretty routine in
itself a lot of times, exceptfor maybe the absolute most
innovative industries.
And I think most people miss outthat there's a lot of challenges
(06:19):
to be solved in manufacturing.
Many, many more than I thinkthey would that they would be
surprised.
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
For sure.
And then just design formanufacturability.
So I mean, like you design apart with machine tolerances, a
shop could arguably beincentivized to just quote it
how you designed it, instead ofsaying, hey, do you really need
this type of a tolerance?
That's going to drive the costof the part up.
So we we really at all metalsfabricating try to do a good job
(06:47):
of letting people know that,asking clarifying questions.
All of our estimators have beenin sheet metal fabricating their
whole career.
And so they really understanddesign for manufacturability.
And so we'll we try to ask a lotof those questions because we
could just quote it the way it'sdesigned.
Sometimes, sometimes thistolerances are too tight, you
(07:07):
can't do it.
But a lot of times it's doablebut drive up the cost.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
I think most engineers would find themselves
in a surprisingly nice place towork in a manufacturing
environment, or at least achange of pace from the typical
desk jobs that they getotherwise.
Can you maybe shine some lighton what you think an engineer
would be doing on amanufacturing floor at a company
(07:33):
like yours versus maybe theirtypical sitting at a computer
all day and and working on a CADtool designing something all day
long?
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
So we're really targeting engineering students,
so college students in ourinternship program.
And we really typically they'llit's difficult to have one of
them floating around the shopall summer long.
But so we'll typically try tofind them a home base.
And oftentimes, if we have theuh workload for it, we'll put
(08:03):
them in assembly so that theycan kind of see how everything
comes together.
And then before the summer'sover, we we get them an
opportunity to shadow in everydepartment, and so that really
gives them full exposure.
You know, you can't really putthem in welding, is the one, but
allowing them to shadow peoplein every department to really
understand the whole process isand ask questions, I think is is
(08:28):
really beneficial.
And so we get them, yeah, thelast week or two of their of
their engagement with us, we tryto bounce them around as much as
possible so that they can reallyget a full understanding of the
every step of the manufacturingprocess.
And bending press break is a bigone.
Like really understandingbending, for example, like be
(08:50):
putting different radiuses onthe same part.
Is that really necessary?
Because that's gonna that'sgonna be multiple setups that's
it's gonna drive up the cost.
And what what can be done on apress break versus drawing and
CAD and understandinginterferences and how you you're
able to get to that bend to beable to form that part is is a
(09:14):
really big one.
SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
Yeah, and I think it's so much easier to learn
these things early on in yourcareer than later once you've
beat your head against the walltrying to get something that
you've designed up made andyou're hearing this stuff
anyway.
So I think interning in themanufacturing field is a great
way to get your foot in thedoor.
I did want to maybe talk alittle bit.
Not every engineer gets thatopportunity, maybe because where
(09:38):
they're geographically located,or maybe they were recruited out
of college to a design job, andsometimes you just go where the
job is.
But I guess for engineers thatmaybe didn't come through this
kind of environment, how do youwork with them and maybe educate
them a little bit more on themanufacturing process?
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yeah, so when when we get a customer that has we
have some DFM feedback on, or wesee a consistent pattern of not
being able to unfold their partsand stuff like that.
We have our programming team,which is essentially engineers.
Some of our programmers actuallyare engineers.
Give them that feedback.
I always tell them in thatdepartment.
(10:20):
I'm like, guys, if you just keepit, if you don't say anything to
them, they're gonna keep gettingwhat you get.
And so educating them on theissues we're experiencing, we
really push the the idea ofpartnerships with our customers.
And so partnering with them oflike, if we're if it's taking
us, if your parts are alwaystaking us more time in
(10:41):
programming because we're at thefixture models, then we're gonna
be charging you more.
And so, how do we how do we makethis most efficient and and
giving them that feedback upfront in order to help educate
them?
We also have a design formanufacturability guide on our
website.
The website is ametals.com, andI'd love to make this available.
(11:02):
Maybe we could have a link inyour on your the notes of your
podcast to be able to downloadthat.
That's a great resource.
We have other resources in termsof design for manufacturability
with hardware and bending on ourwebsite as well.
So there's a lot of greatcontent.
Our blog is mostly targeted ateducating engineers and buyers
(11:23):
on everything from design formanufacturability to powder
coating and finishes and whatand material types, which
material to type to select forwhich product.
And so that's all available onon ametals.com under our blog
resources, and be happy to makethat available to your audience.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
I will definitely grab that link and put it in the
show notes.
I think things like that are agreat resource for engineers to
leaf through, especially if theyhave any downtime in between
projects or a program place onhold or things like that, just
for the continual education.
I guess for somebody that thatdoes come through and does learn
(12:01):
that manufacturing, how long doyou think most engineers would
need to work on a floor to nolonger need that design guide?
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Like it's tough to say.
I mean, I think the what I'd sayis the more experience you have
on the floor, the better.
But it's not like you can whenyou're doing on-the-job
training, the the certain partshave to come through to to drive
that opportunity to teach onthat point.
And so I think that you canlearn a lot in a summer, but I
(12:31):
mean, really, you would need tospend probably at least a year
on a manufacturing floor, andthat would be pretty aggressive
at spending several months ineach department to really get an
and then a better understanding.
But the more experienced, thebetter.
The best thing you're worked onthe floor, period.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
Agreed.
And I think one year to somebodywho's 20 years old might sound
like a lot, but when you have a40-year career ahead of you,
you're talking about maybe 2% ofyour time, 2% of your career
spent just making sure youunderstand how the stuff's going
to be made.
That doesn't seem like that bigof an investment in your career.
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
And you could accomplish it over the course of
several summers of internships.
And I've actually heard thatthat companies are actually
looking for on the floorexperience now when they're
hiring their engineers.
That's a real big bonus andattraction on their resume.
So yeah, if that's the case,that that would be that employer
(13:27):
would be intelligent to belooking for that and and and
putting those types of people atthe top of the list.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
I agreed.
I mean, I think any employer isgoing to be smart to be doing
that because just like you said,the more time you spend going
back and forth with themanufacturer, you guys have to
sort of bake that time into thecost of the project.
So they their employer ends uppaying more for the work they're
getting done by all thecommunication and extra time and
projects get delayed instead ofbeing completed faster.
SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Yeah, and when it gets picked back too, it's just
more work for the engineer todo.
So they can learn from theirmistakes and fix them moving
forward.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
So I was gonna ask you a little bit about the
payoff for you and an engineerwho are both knowledgeable in
manufacturing working together,but we kind of just hit on that
point.
It's just save some time andeffort on the engineer.
I'd like to point something outabout you, Lance.
You've been aroundmanufacturing, and now you sort
of think in terms ofmanufacturing challenges.
And often manufacturingchallenges are sort of the
(14:27):
biggest opportunities.
Like when you hear about a newmethod of manufacturing, like
maybe 3D printing, that opens upan entirely new industry, so to
speak.
So I'd like to use an examplethat you actually have another
business that you've startedcalled Printed.
And maybe talk a little bitabout how you were inspired for
that, the challenge you saw,because I think it's sort of an
(14:48):
inspiring story for engineers tosort of end the conversation on.
SPEAKER_01 (14:53):
Yeah, so I'm an opportunist, right, and
entrepreneur.
And short story, my my family'sbeen invested with my
co-founding partner of printedfor over 30 years in residential
real estate.
And back in 2019, he purchased a3D printer to print homes for
the residential real estateportfolio that he owned.
(15:13):
And took him a couple of yearsto get it, the machine to
actually work, a lot ofretrofitting.
It was early stage.
But he successfully printed theseventh and eighth 3D printed
homes in America.
And and meeting with him andgetting updates on the
investment portfolio and what hewas doing, I just became
fascinated with this 3D printingbecause at all metals
(15:35):
fabricating, we are highlyfocused on automation and
implementing Industry 4.0, whichis the fourth industrial
revolution of manufacturing thatincludes automation, robotics,
AI, data analytics, machinemonitoring, machine learning.
And I just rattled off a lot,but we're highly focused on all
that.
And so I having I've builtseveral of my own personal
(15:55):
homes, not as the builder, butworked with builders and and
also done some investing in andbuilding residential real
estate.
And I just saw that I mean, itis the most inefficient industry
in the world, I would argue.
And it's also we're alsobuilding houses the same way we
did 100 years ago.
So I mean, in manufacturing,we're not even doing all the
same things the way we weredoing it 10 years ago, much less
(16:18):
100.
And so I don't think you'd findanother industry in the world
where you're doing it the sameway you've been doing it for 100
years.
And so there's a re I saw a hugeopportunity and got really
excited about this technology.
And so I pitched to myco-founder partner that we what
if we brought a manufacturingmindset to home building where
you're focused on efficiency andyou're using automation and
(16:41):
robotics.
There's 3D printing to helpsolve the affordable housing
crisis, which is arguably one ofthe largest crises facing our
country, and really it's aworldwide issue.
And he loved the idea, and so wepivoted our our the money in our
portfolio over to launchingprinted technologies.
And our mission is just torevolutionize construction, uh,
(17:02):
specifically on the printingside, home construction.
So all metals then redesignedthe machine, and we really
focused for the last year and ahalf, two years on our bead
quality and consistency.
And so we redesigned themachine.
Now we've achieved some reallygood consistency and quality of
beads.
We're actually now developingand designing a print head to
(17:24):
print more of a brick style toappeal to traditional
architecture styles, and alsobeing able to offer a smooth
wall finish, we could docurrently, but being able to do
it in an automated approach asopposed to a manual approach is
what we're the next next hillwe're we're charging.
And so, yeah, it's reallyexciting.
(17:45):
Designing a new machine is isalways fun and and challenging.
And and so now we're we'reactually raising capital to
scale the company and lookingfor great people to add.
And so a lot of opportunitythere.
I think we build there's a seventhere's a shortage of 7.3
million affordable homes rightnow in America, and we're only
(18:06):
building 1.4 million homes peryear, of which less than 10% are
focused on affordable housing.
And so the number is just gonnagrow and grow, and it's a simple
supply and demand.
The the less supply, it's moredemand, the cost cost just
continues to go up.
So we have to fix the supplyissue, which I really believe
(18:27):
utilizing automation through 3Dprinting will help tackle this
problem that is rapidly growing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Yeah, I think that's an amazing story with a great
purpose.
I remember uh maybe like five toten years ago, there was an
article about the home buildingindustry, and they said if the
home building industry gainedefficiencies like other
manufacturing industries do, thelabor required to build a house
would be in the range of$20 to$100.
But instead, obviously, it'shundreds of thousands of
(18:55):
dollars.
Obviously, it's not it's nevergoing to be gained the
efficiencies that that someindustries do, but there's
certainly room for improvementlike you're working on.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
Yeah, and and the regulations are the biggest
bottleneck right now for theindustry to really take shape
and um start making a dent.
So and cities don't know how toinspect the plans, much less
approve the prints.
And so there's some movementright now on an international
committee, ICC, to standardizewhat's acceptable.
(19:26):
And uh I believe once that is uhdone and accepted by cities,
then we'll start to really see3D printing can help.
Uh, right now, like we can printa house for 20% less and build
it and 30% faster.
But in order to really move theneedle and improve on that, you
need economies of scale.
And so right now we're limitedto printing in rural areas for
(19:49):
the most part, uh, other than afew cities that have been early
adopters.
And so I think once the massadoption occurs from the
municipalities, then we canreally start to see economies.
Of scale and and get the costdown even further.
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
It's great.
I'm gonna put a link to yourprinted website in the show
notes as well.
I think people should take alook at that because it's very
interesting the houses thatyou're designing.
I mean, they they look greatfrom the outside in my
perspective.
So I think you're doing goodwork there.
I guess we'll just wrap up here,Lance.
Um, it's been great for sharingthe work that you guys do at All
(20:25):
Metals.
Can you tell the audience maybewhere to go to find you,
especially if they need work towork with uh a company like
yours?
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
Yeah, go to ametals.com and I didn't mention
earlier, so I'm mentioning nowwe serve virtually every
industry.
The company is built kind of onthe telecom boom in the 80s and
90s.
We've always done some bankingequipment on the on top on the
uh cash sorting side, and alsowhen you pull up to bank putting
the the uh tube in uh to to sendthe cash or the deposit voucher
(20:54):
over, we make those.
We also but we now we we reallydo a lot in alternative energy,
and that's our biggest sector,along with data centers, a lot
in medical, and we even do alittle bit in aerospace and
defense, but we serve virtuallyevery industry, so uh we're
pretty agnostic, and it alsogives us a lot of exposure and
expertise in virtually everyindustry.
And so ametals.com.
(21:16):
Uh, if you're an engineer andyou want to get a quote, you can
go to our quote portal, requestfor quote, just click that, and
you can you can upload the PDFand the STEP file, our CAD file,
preferably in step format, andum along with the manufacturing
type, then quantities you wantquoted.
And actually, we have anautomated quoting tool that will
(21:38):
start to build out that quote inthe background for you, and then
it notifies our estimators to goin and evaluate it, put the
finishing touches on the quoteand get that to you.
So we'd love for you guys to uhto use that resource and um
would love to earn your businessand trust.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
And just a quick reminder, I think you mentioned
you also have like uh a bendtable they can download for for
the bins that you guys use,right?
Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
And so that noted when you design in what our our
bin deductions are, that allowsus to streamline programming and
not be making adjustments toyour files on the flat pattern.
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
All right, so they can go there and download that.
Anybody interested in that cango look at the show notes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
We also, yeah, we also have a tooling library.
So big thing is is knowing whattooling the shop you're working
with has, because if you don'thave if they don't have a tool,
then they're likely going tocharge you for that tool.
And so, for example, on alouver, you may draw in a
certain size louver, but we'vegot a size just smaller than
(22:47):
that and a size just bigger thanthat, and typically with
airflow, the you can deviate oneup or down a little bit and it'd
be fine.
So just knowing what shop you'reworking with, what tooling they
have available is verybeneficial.
It also helps streamline on uhlead time.
So instead of waiting for a toolto come in for two to three
weeks, you can program it in afew days and get it to the floor
(23:11):
immediately.
Whereas you can't really alittle bit of the programming
without the tool, but ultimatelyyou have to wait for that tool
to come in to release it toproduction because you have to
draw that tool in the CAD, putit and save it in the
programming software, and uh tobe able to use it.
So that's another greatresource.
And I'll make sure you have allthose so you can include all of
that in the show notes.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
Okay, sounds great.
Thank you for being on the showtoday, Lance.
Again, that was All MetalsFabricating, and you can check
them out at ametals.com.
Lance, thank you, and Iappreciate your time.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yes, sir.
Thank you very much, Brandon.
Have a great day.
You too.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Now, me personally, I've spent a lot of time in
shops or talking to shop owners,doing tours, and in my career,
I've learned a ton about howfoundries create their products,
how injection molders createtheir products, how roto molders
create their products.
And I've been given theopportunity to understand a
(24:09):
broad range of this.
Recently, it's been brought tomy attention that far fewer
engineers than I would like tothink really understand these
manufacturing methods.
There was even a SmarterEveryday episode recently, where
Destin had created a smartscrubber for a grill.
(24:32):
And even he's showing that evenup to a few years ago he didn't
necessarily understand themanufacturing processes of
molding.
So I think as an industry, thereis a chance for you to level up
by spending a little bit moretime in understanding design for
(24:52):
manufacturing.
Lance left us with moreinformation about pen tables and
design for manufacturing guides.
You can find those in our shownotes.
Please check those out at theengineering passion express.com.
And I'll see you on the nextepisode of the Engineering
Passion Express.
On this episode of the Engineering Passion Express,
we'll have a guest on namedLance.
Lance is the owner of amanufacturing company, and we're
going to talk about design formanufacturing.
When I think of design formanufacturing, I'd like to think
about new tools like generativeAI software that design parts.
(00:38):
As that AI has grown incapability for engineers, there
are still areas like design formanufacturing where thoughts
outside of equations matter.
Making sure that your design canbe built that it can save an
unbelievable amount of time.
Understanding the constraints ofdifferent tools can save massive
(01:02):
costs by reducing unnecessarysteps in production.
And Lance is going to give us alittle inside knowledge about
the importance of understandingmanufacturing constraints, drop
a few hints to engineers whowant to learn more, and tell you
where you can get some moreresources on better
(01:23):
understanding the manufacturingprocess.
With that being said, let's getinto the episode and let's talk
with Lance.
Alright.
Welcome to the EngineeringPassion Express podcast.
Today we have Lance on with usfrom Alni Adult Fabrication,
generalized manufacturing aroundmetal components.
It's nice to have you on, Lance.
(01:44):
I'd like you to maybe introduceyour company a little bit and
talk about what you do.
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
I'm the third generation owner of All Metals
Fabricating, differentiatorbetween fabrication and
fabricating, because there's allmetals fabrication in Utah, but
we're all metals fabricating.
My grandfather bought thebusiness in 78, and I've been
here since 2007.
We're a contract manufacturerspecializing in sheet metal
(02:08):
fabricating, precisionmachining, welding, powder
coating, and assembly, includingelectromechanical assembly.
And so we're a one-stop shop forgiving people a complete
solution for their products.
SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
Great.
Since you guys do all of that insort of a generalized way, I
think that is a little bit of acontrast with engineers who are
sort of becoming more and morespecialized, just as technology
grows and things like that.
That's a trend that I think isonly going to continue.
I'd like to hear, Lance, yourperspective on working with
engineers who maybe don'tunderstand manufacturing at a
(02:44):
high level and maybe some of thechallenges you run into when you
deal with that.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
We have an engineering internship program
here, which we can talk moreabout later, but we believe that
it's very important that youactually understand how parts
are made before you startdesigning them.
And so a lot of the challengeswe run into are people designing
a part in a way that is notmanufacturable or would cost
(03:10):
more to manufacture it that way.
And so on a machined part makinga hole or something very
difficult to get to, or on sheetmetal having holes or
countersinks or threads tooclose to bend lines, hem nuts
not being able to be installedbecause of the design of the
part, not being able to accessthat.
(03:31):
You can't also can't have hemnuts or studs too close to bend
lines.
You have to factor that in aswell.
And so things like that would beprobably the the biggest, or
putting, for example, machiningtolerances on sheet metal parts.
So having unrealistic toleranceson sheet metal or or welded
(03:52):
parts is where we see a lot ofmistakes.
Also, parts not unfoldingproperly.
So the way you model it, makingsure that we can get the flat
pattern easily is another thing.
SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
Totally agree with you there.
I think in my career, especiallysince I grew up in a machining
business, what I've seen is uhmore than probably anything is
probably unreasonableexpectations on tolerances.
And that was probably thebiggest driver of increased
costs for a lot of people, atleast in my experience.
SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Yeah, it's as simple as like you put a machine
tolerance, uh machining millerlathe tolerance on a sheet metal
part, and like that can bedoable, but then you got to put
it on the mill for that hole.
And so that's significant setupcosts, additional programming
costs, and it's a more expensiveoperation.
(04:49):
And also people putting a commonmistake is is putting too small
of holes on too thick ofmaterial.
And so that then forces it to bemachined.
And so just knowing what insheet metal, what hole size is
appropriate for what thicknessis of material is another easy
mistake.
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
I guess I'd like your opinion on why do you think
so many engineers choose not togo to into into a manufacturing
job?
I mean, my personal feeling isthey feel like you'll start them
on the wrong path in theircareer because they're
interested in maybe cars orrockets or consumer products or
things like that.
But I mean, do you have anyinsight on why you think that
is?
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Some people may think they're that's below them,
or they may not want to do hardmanual labor, not necessarily
hard, but manual labor, or justan ignorance to I think it's
probably more just an ignoranceof like the need for that, would
be my guess.
I think if people knew that thatwould help them in their career,
(05:48):
they would probably do it, butthey don't really realize that.
So would be my what what mytakeaway would be.
SPEAKER_00 (05:55):
I agree with that a little bit.
I think when you go to school asan engineer, you learn a little
bit of things like calculus andphysics, and you you want to
solve sort of these optimizationproblems for performance of a
product.
But all of that actually doesbecome pretty pretty routine in
itself a lot of times, exceptfor maybe the absolute most
innovative industries.
And I think most people miss outthat there's a lot of challenges
(06:19):
to be solved in manufacturing.
Many, many more than I thinkthey would that they would be
surprised.
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
For sure.
And then just design formanufacturability.
So I mean, like you design apart with machine tolerances, a
shop could arguably beincentivized to just quote it
how you designed it, instead ofsaying, hey, do you really need
this type of a tolerance?
That's going to drive the costof the part up.
So we we really at all metalsfabricating try to do a good job
(06:47):
of letting people know that,asking clarifying questions.
All of our estimators have beenin sheet metal fabricating their
whole career.
And so they really understanddesign for manufacturability.
And so we'll we try to ask a lotof those questions because we
could just quote it the way it'sdesigned.
Sometimes, sometimes thistolerances are too tight, you
(07:07):
can't do it.
But a lot of times it's doablebut drive up the cost.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
I think most engineers would find themselves
in a surprisingly nice place towork in a manufacturing
environment, or at least achange of pace from the typical
desk jobs that they getotherwise.
Can you maybe shine some lighton what you think an engineer
would be doing on amanufacturing floor at a company
(07:33):
like yours versus maybe theirtypical sitting at a computer
all day and and working on a CADtool designing something all day
long?
SPEAKER_01 (07:41):
So we're really targeting engineering students,
so college students in ourinternship program.
And we really typically they'llit's difficult to have one of
them floating around the shopall summer long.
But so we'll typically try tofind them a home base.
And oftentimes, if we have theuh workload for it, we'll put
(08:03):
them in assembly so that theycan kind of see how everything
comes together.
And then before the summer'sover, we we get them an
opportunity to shadow in everydepartment, and so that really
gives them full exposure.
You know, you can't really putthem in welding, is the one, but
allowing them to shadow peoplein every department to really
understand the whole process isand ask questions, I think is is
(08:28):
really beneficial.
And so we get them, yeah, thelast week or two of their of
their engagement with us, we tryto bounce them around as much as
possible so that they can reallyget a full understanding of the
every step of the manufacturingprocess.
And bending press break is a bigone.
Like really understandingbending, for example, like be
(08:50):
putting different radiuses onthe same part.
Is that really necessary?
Because that's gonna that'sgonna be multiple setups that's
it's gonna drive up the cost.
And what what can be done on apress break versus drawing and
CAD and understandinginterferences and how you you're
able to get to that bend to beable to form that part is is a
(09:14):
really big one.
SPEAKER_00 (09:15):
Yeah, and I think it's so much easier to learn
these things early on in yourcareer than later once you've
beat your head against the walltrying to get something that
you've designed up made andyou're hearing this stuff
anyway.
So I think interning in themanufacturing field is a great
way to get your foot in thedoor.
I did want to maybe talk alittle bit.
Not every engineer gets thatopportunity, maybe because where
(09:38):
they're geographically located,or maybe they were recruited out
of college to a design job, andsometimes you just go where the
job is.
But I guess for engineers thatmaybe didn't come through this
kind of environment, how do youwork with them and maybe educate
them a little bit more on themanufacturing process?
SPEAKER_01 (09:57):
Yeah, so when when we get a customer that has we
have some DFM feedback on, or wesee a consistent pattern of not
being able to unfold their partsand stuff like that.
We have our programming team,which is essentially engineers.
Some of our programmers actuallyare engineers.
Give them that feedback.
I always tell them in thatdepartment.
(10:20):
I'm like, guys, if you just keepit, if you don't say anything to
them, they're gonna keep gettingwhat you get.
And so educating them on theissues we're experiencing, we
really push the the idea ofpartnerships with our customers.
And so partnering with them oflike, if we're if it's taking
us, if your parts are alwaystaking us more time in
(10:41):
programming because we're at thefixture models, then we're gonna
be charging you more.
And so, how do we how do we makethis most efficient and and
giving them that feedback upfront in order to help educate
them?
We also have a design formanufacturability guide on our
website.
The website is ametals.com, andI'd love to make this available.
(11:02):
Maybe we could have a link inyour on your the notes of your
podcast to be able to downloadthat.
That's a great resource.
We have other resources in termsof design for manufacturability
with hardware and bending on ourwebsite as well.
So there's a lot of greatcontent.
Our blog is mostly targeted ateducating engineers and buyers
(11:23):
on everything from design formanufacturability to powder
coating and finishes and whatand material types, which
material to type to select forwhich product.
And so that's all available onon ametals.com under our blog
resources, and be happy to makethat available to your audience.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
I will definitely grab that link and put it in the
show notes.
I think things like that are agreat resource for engineers to
leaf through, especially if theyhave any downtime in between
projects or a program place onhold or things like that, just
for the continual education.
I guess for somebody that thatdoes come through and does learn
(12:01):
that manufacturing, how long doyou think most engineers would
need to work on a floor to nolonger need that design guide?
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Like it's tough to say.
I mean, I think the what I'd sayis the more experience you have
on the floor, the better.
But it's not like you can whenyou're doing on-the-job
training, the the certain partshave to come through to to drive
that opportunity to teach onthat point.
And so I think that you canlearn a lot in a summer, but I
(12:31):
mean, really, you would need tospend probably at least a year
on a manufacturing floor, andthat would be pretty aggressive
at spending several months ineach department to really get an
and then a better understanding.
But the more experienced, thebetter.
The best thing you're worked onthe floor, period.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
Agreed.
And I think one year to somebodywho's 20 years old might sound
like a lot, but when you have a40-year career ahead of you,
you're talking about maybe 2% ofyour time, 2% of your career
spent just making sure youunderstand how the stuff's going
to be made.
That doesn't seem like that bigof an investment in your career.
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
And you could accomplish it over the course of
several summers of internships.
And I've actually heard thatthat companies are actually
looking for on the floorexperience now when they're
hiring their engineers.
That's a real big bonus andattraction on their resume.
So yeah, if that's the case,that that would be that employer
(13:27):
would be intelligent to belooking for that and and and
putting those types of people atthe top of the list.
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
I agreed.
I mean, I think any employer isgoing to be smart to be doing
that because just like you said,the more time you spend going
back and forth with themanufacturer, you guys have to
sort of bake that time into thecost of the project.
So they their employer ends uppaying more for the work they're
getting done by all thecommunication and extra time and
projects get delayed instead ofbeing completed faster.
SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Yeah, and when it gets picked back too, it's just
more work for the engineer todo.
So they can learn from theirmistakes and fix them moving
forward.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
So I was gonna ask you a little bit about the
payoff for you and an engineerwho are both knowledgeable in
manufacturing working together,but we kind of just hit on that
point.
It's just save some time andeffort on the engineer.
I'd like to point something outabout you, Lance.
You've been aroundmanufacturing, and now you sort
of think in terms ofmanufacturing challenges.
And often manufacturingchallenges are sort of the
(14:27):
biggest opportunities.
Like when you hear about a newmethod of manufacturing, like
maybe 3D printing, that opens upan entirely new industry, so to
speak.
So I'd like to use an examplethat you actually have another
business that you've startedcalled Printed.
And maybe talk a little bitabout how you were inspired for
that, the challenge you saw,because I think it's sort of an
(14:48):
inspiring story for engineers tosort of end the conversation on.
SPEAKER_01 (14:53):
Yeah, so I'm an opportunist, right, and
entrepreneur.
And short story, my my family'sbeen invested with my
co-founding partner of printedfor over 30 years in residential
real estate.
And back in 2019, he purchased a3D printer to print homes for
the residential real estateportfolio that he owned.
(15:13):
And took him a couple of yearsto get it, the machine to
actually work, a lot ofretrofitting.
It was early stage.
But he successfully printed theseventh and eighth 3D printed
homes in America.
And and meeting with him andgetting updates on the
investment portfolio and what hewas doing, I just became
fascinated with this 3D printingbecause at all metals
(15:35):
fabricating, we are highlyfocused on automation and
implementing Industry 4.0, whichis the fourth industrial
revolution of manufacturing thatincludes automation, robotics,
AI, data analytics, machinemonitoring, machine learning.
And I just rattled off a lot,but we're highly focused on all
that.
And so I having I've builtseveral of my own personal
(15:55):
homes, not as the builder, butworked with builders and and
also done some investing in andbuilding residential real
estate.
And I just saw that I mean, itis the most inefficient industry
in the world, I would argue.
And it's also we're alsobuilding houses the same way we
did 100 years ago.
So I mean, in manufacturing,we're not even doing all the
same things the way we weredoing it 10 years ago, much less
(16:18):
100.
And so I don't think you'd findanother industry in the world
where you're doing it the sameway you've been doing it for 100
years.
And so there's a re I saw a hugeopportunity and got really
excited about this technology.
And so I pitched to myco-founder partner that we what
if we brought a manufacturingmindset to home building where
you're focused on efficiency andyou're using automation and
(16:41):
robotics.
There's 3D printing to helpsolve the affordable housing
crisis, which is arguably one ofthe largest crises facing our
country, and really it's aworldwide issue.
And he loved the idea, and so wepivoted our our the money in our
portfolio over to launchingprinted technologies.
And our mission is just torevolutionize construction, uh,
(17:02):
specifically on the printingside, home construction.
So all metals then redesignedthe machine, and we really
focused for the last year and ahalf, two years on our bead
quality and consistency.
And so we redesigned themachine.
Now we've achieved some reallygood consistency and quality of
beads.
We're actually now developingand designing a print head to
(17:24):
print more of a brick style toappeal to traditional
architecture styles, and alsobeing able to offer a smooth
wall finish, we could docurrently, but being able to do
it in an automated approach asopposed to a manual approach is
what we're the next next hillwe're we're charging.
And so, yeah, it's reallyexciting.
(17:45):
Designing a new machine is isalways fun and and challenging.
And and so now we're we'reactually raising capital to
scale the company and lookingfor great people to add.
And so a lot of opportunitythere.
I think we build there's a seventhere's a shortage of 7.3
million affordable homes rightnow in America, and we're only
(18:06):
building 1.4 million homes peryear, of which less than 10% are
focused on affordable housing.
And so the number is just gonnagrow and grow, and it's a simple
supply and demand.
The the less supply, it's moredemand, the cost cost just
continues to go up.
So we have to fix the supplyissue, which I really believe
(18:27):
utilizing automation through 3Dprinting will help tackle this
problem that is rapidly growing.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Yeah, I think that's an amazing story with a great
purpose.
I remember uh maybe like five toten years ago, there was an
article about the home buildingindustry, and they said if the
home building industry gainedefficiencies like other
manufacturing industries do, thelabor required to build a house
would be in the range of$20 to$100.
But instead, obviously, it'shundreds of thousands of
(18:55):
dollars.
Obviously, it's not it's nevergoing to be gained the
efficiencies that that someindustries do, but there's
certainly room for improvementlike you're working on.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
Yeah, and and the regulations are the biggest
bottleneck right now for theindustry to really take shape
and um start making a dent.
So and cities don't know how toinspect the plans, much less
approve the prints.
And so there's some movementright now on an international
committee, ICC, to standardizewhat's acceptable.
(19:26):
And uh I believe once that is uhdone and accepted by cities,
then we'll start to really see3D printing can help.
Uh, right now, like we can printa house for 20% less and build
it and 30% faster.
But in order to really move theneedle and improve on that, you
need economies of scale.
And so right now we're limitedto printing in rural areas for
(19:49):
the most part, uh, other than afew cities that have been early
adopters.
And so I think once the massadoption occurs from the
municipalities, then we canreally start to see economies.
Of scale and and get the costdown even further.
SPEAKER_00 (20:03):
It's great.
I'm gonna put a link to yourprinted website in the show
notes as well.
I think people should take alook at that because it's very
interesting the houses thatyou're designing.
I mean, they they look greatfrom the outside in my
perspective.
So I think you're doing goodwork there.
I guess we'll just wrap up here,Lance.
Um, it's been great for sharingthe work that you guys do at All
(20:25):
Metals.
Can you tell the audience maybewhere to go to find you,
especially if they need work towork with uh a company like
yours?
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
Yeah, go to ametals.com and I didn't mention
earlier, so I'm mentioning nowwe serve virtually every
industry.
The company is built kind of onthe telecom boom in the 80s and
90s.
We've always done some bankingequipment on the on top on the
uh cash sorting side, and alsowhen you pull up to bank putting
the the uh tube in uh to to sendthe cash or the deposit voucher
(20:54):
over, we make those.
We also but we now we we reallydo a lot in alternative energy,
and that's our biggest sector,along with data centers, a lot
in medical, and we even do alittle bit in aerospace and
defense, but we serve virtuallyevery industry, so uh we're
pretty agnostic, and it alsogives us a lot of exposure and
expertise in virtually everyindustry.
And so ametals.com.
(21:16):
Uh, if you're an engineer andyou want to get a quote, you can
go to our quote portal, requestfor quote, just click that, and
you can you can upload the PDFand the STEP file, our CAD file,
preferably in step format, andum along with the manufacturing
type, then quantities you wantquoted.
And actually, we have anautomated quoting tool that will
(21:38):
start to build out that quote inthe background for you, and then
it notifies our estimators to goin and evaluate it, put the
finishing touches on the quoteand get that to you.
So we'd love for you guys to uhto use that resource and um
would love to earn your businessand trust.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
And just a quick reminder, I think you mentioned
you also have like uh a bendtable they can download for for
the bins that you guys use,right?
Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
And so that noted when you design in what our our
bin deductions are, that allowsus to streamline programming and
not be making adjustments toyour files on the flat pattern.
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
All right, so they can go there and download that.
Anybody interested in that cango look at the show notes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
We also, yeah, we also have a tooling library.
So big thing is is knowing whattooling the shop you're working
with has, because if you don'thave if they don't have a tool,
then they're likely going tocharge you for that tool.
And so, for example, on alouver, you may draw in a
certain size louver, but we'vegot a size just smaller than
(22:47):
that and a size just bigger thanthat, and typically with
airflow, the you can deviate oneup or down a little bit and it'd
be fine.
So just knowing what shop you'reworking with, what tooling they
have available is verybeneficial.
It also helps streamline on uhlead time.
So instead of waiting for a toolto come in for two to three
weeks, you can program it in afew days and get it to the floor
(23:11):
immediately.
Whereas you can't really alittle bit of the programming
without the tool, but ultimatelyyou have to wait for that tool
to come in to release it toproduction because you have to
draw that tool in the CAD, putit and save it in the
programming software, and uh tobe able to use it.
So that's another greatresource.
And I'll make sure you have allthose so you can include all of
that in the show notes.
SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
Okay, sounds great.
Thank you for being on the showtoday, Lance.
Again, that was All MetalsFabricating, and you can check
them out at ametals.com.
Lance, thank you, and Iappreciate your time.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Yes, sir.
Thank you very much, Brandon.
Have a great day.
You too.
SPEAKER_00 (23:47):
Now, me personally, I've spent a lot of time in
shops or talking to shop owners,doing tours, and in my career,
I've learned a ton about howfoundries create their products,
how injection molders createtheir products, how roto molders
create their products.
And I've been given theopportunity to understand a
(24:09):
broad range of this.
Recently, it's been brought tomy attention that far fewer
engineers than I would like tothink really understand these
manufacturing methods.
There was even a SmarterEveryday episode recently, where
Destin had created a smartscrubber for a grill.
(24:32):
And even he's showing that evenup to a few years ago he didn't
necessarily understand themanufacturing processes of
molding.
So I think as an industry, thereis a chance for you to level up
by spending a little bit moretime in understanding design for
(24:52):
manufacturing.
Lance left us with moreinformation about pen tables and
design for manufacturing guides.
You can find those in our shownotes.
Please check those out at theengineering passion express.com.
And I'll see you on the nextepisode of the Engineering
Passion Express.
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