July 9, 2024 • 60 mins
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What if you could transform your approach to discipline and foster a sense of belonging and significance in children? We have an enlightening conversation lined up for you with Chip DeLorenzo, a seasoned Montessori educator and co-author of "Positive Discipline in the Montessori Classroom." Chip shares his personal journey from struggling with traditional classroom management techniques to embracing positive discipline, a method that marries kindness with firmness. This episode is packed with practical insights for both parents and teachers who aim to cultivate good character and social skills in children through respectful and effective discipline strategies.
Join us as we delve into the roots of children's misbehavior and the pivotal role that effective discipline plays in their development. Learn how to reframe misbehavior as a learning opportunity rather than a personal affront, maintaining the dignity and respect of both children and adults. Chip and our host explore the nuanced balance between being kind yet firm, highlighting the significance of modeling positive behavior and the value of motivational curiosity questions. These tactics not only foster cooperation but also encourage self-motivation and resilience in children.
Discover how understanding children's perspectives can revolutionize your parenting or teaching approach. Chip discusses the impact of different parenting styles and the importance of having a prepared strategy for managing frustrations. We also explore the cultural shifts from authoritarian to permissive parenting, and how finding a balanced approach is crucial. Tune in to learn how parents can operate as a united front, modeling constructive discipline and repair, and ultimately elevating their authority and respect. This episode promises to be a transformative guide for anyone committed to nurturing well-rounded, self-regulated children.
For more on Positive Discipline, visit www.positivediscipline.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back parents.
Listen, today we're going totalk about discipline and if
you'd like to know how todiscipline in a way that is kind
and firm at the same time, alsohelps your child feel a sense
of belonging and significance,is effective long-term and
(00:23):
teaches valuable social and lifeskills for good character.
This is the Families ofCharacter show, you know, but
also invites your child todiscover how capable they are
and to use their personal powerin constructive ways.
You are going to want to staytuned until the end of this
episode.
Today we have an expert onpositive discipline on our show,
(00:47):
so welcome to the Families ofCharacter show, chip DeLorenzo.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you so much for having me, Jordan.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
So glad to have you on the show, guys.
Chip has been a Montessorieducator since 1995.
He's also the father of fiveMontessori children, and he and
his wife, kathy live in Loveland, ohio Good Midwesterner, I love
it.
He's the co-author with JaneNelson of Positive Discipline in
the Montessori Classroom, abook they wrote together, and as
(01:19):
a teacher, trainer and schoolconsultant, chip has worked with
thousands of Montessoriteachers and parents in teaching
the principles and practices ofpositive discipline, and he's
done that through workshops andvarious lectures.
He is the former head of schoolat the De Mariscotta Montessori
School, where he spent 20 yearsas a teacher and administrator,
(01:42):
and Chip holds early childhood,lower and upper elementary AMS
certifications and has workedextensively with Montessori
adolescent students AdolescentsI love it.
And positive discipline.
This is so good, chip.
So tell us, how did you firstbecome interested in positive
(02:03):
discipline?
This was before you even hadchildren, it looks like.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, by mistake, actually so like the I say that
with quotation marks around itso probably like the best things
that happened to us, it wasn'tmy plan.
So I actually ran into JaneNelson's work because I was
underwater in the classroom.
(02:27):
I was a brand new teacher and,like a lot of us who go into
teaching, you know I feltsomewhat prepared with the
Montessori curriculum and youknow what I was supposed to be
doing.
I was not, however, preparedfor the behavior, difficulties
and challenges that I met in theclassroom and, to be honest
(02:49):
with you, the principles we'regoing to talk about today.
I didn't grow up with thoseprinciples and I had an idea of
the person that I wanted to be,the teacher that I wanted to be,
but I was quickly.
I was underwater almostimmediately, almost immediately,
and you know, to make a longstory short, I had a really
(03:10):
caring, kind and firm mentor andboss who one day, after a
particularly challengingsituation with one of the
students, she put her arm aroundme and said Chip, I don't know
how to say this, but you'reinviting a lot of the
misbehavior that's happening inyour classroom.
Oh, and it kind of stung, butit was also.
(03:31):
You know, it's one of thosethings that somebody tells you,
a mentor tells you, and youdon't have time to think about
it and it kind of bypasses thatfilter that sits on top of our
shoulders and hits you right inthe heart, our shoulders, and
hits you right in the heart.
And you know, I was.
I knew it was true Jordan,because she used to come into my
(03:53):
classroom and and take over forme from time to time or to work
with me, and when, when she didum, it seemed like what she was
doing when I wasn't looking at,sprinkling magic dust on the
kids, uh, and cause they startedto do all these strange things,
like they'd raise their handswhen they wanted to speak in a
lesson and they would do theirwork, they would speak to her
respectfully, they would takeresponsibility for the things
they were responsible for in theclassroom, and then she left,
(04:18):
you know, go back to her office,and she always took her magic
dust with her, and so the kidsstopped doing all those things,
right, and so it doesn't take arocket scientist, you know, to
come up with the equation oflike, obviously it wasn't the
children and their abilities,because they were exhibiting
those abilities for pro-socialbehavior.
And you know good stewards ofthe community when she was there
(04:43):
, but then she left, so therewas only one shift in that
variable right.
That was the result in charge.
So so anyway, to make a longstory short, she recommended
some of Jane's work and before Iknew it, I was up attending a
workshop in Sacramento and andyou know what happened for me
was it was.
(05:05):
I think it was almost miraculous.
That's what it felt, becausewhen I got back into the
classroom after this workshop,in about six weeks, my, my
relationship with the kidschanged, and I think that's
really the true test of any, anydiscipline method that we use
is what is?
What does that look like interms of our relationship with
(05:27):
the children?
And I think I improved about100% in that six weeks.
Now, that's not saying a lot.
On a scale of one to 10, I wasat a one and I went to a two
right, so I had a long way to go.
But when you're at a one andyou go to a two, you really feel
it because you're desperate.
And that's where I was, I was,I was desperate, like a lot of
parents and teachers are.
(05:47):
Um, and I, you know, to.
You know what happened is isthat I started to become more
skilled with this matter of fact, over some time.
I started to.
It actually became a bit astrength of mine.
Um, the classroom managementand discipline and, uh, and
building strong relationshipswith the students that were
(06:07):
appropriate, like so I couldstill be the adult and they were
still kids but, we had a strongrelationship.
I was still the authority andthe leader in the classroom, but
there was a sense of dignityand respect that permeated the
environment and so, little byslowly, I started doing some
work with other teachers andthen, a bunch of years later,
(06:27):
jane and I wrote this book, andthat's kind of how this all came
to be, and I'll also just sharewith you that we're here to
talk about parents, and so thatwas my journey as an educator.
So in all of that, almost 30years of working in a school,
around seven, eight years intobeing a teacher, I had my own
(06:49):
children.
And I will say this to all theparents it's way easier working
with your children than it is myown.
So I had all this understanding, this knowledge how to work
with other people's children,but then having your own is a
completely different experience.
You know I used to judge theparents.
You know, as a teacher, like, ohmy gosh, I'll never do this or
(07:11):
I'll never do that.
And I know we all, all parents,do that before we have kids,
right?
You know, you see somebody'skid melting down in the, you
know, on a playground and oh mygosh, my kid will never do that
until it's our own child.
And so it was a whole newjourney being a parent, because
my children had direct access tothe, to you know, the things
(07:33):
that make up everything in myheart and all my hopes and
dreams for them, my ambitions,and so I had there's a whole new
learning process that wentalong with that.
The principles were still there, but, but my role had shifted,
my role had changed.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I appreciate you just saying that from a teacher's
perspective that it's so mucheasier to teach another person's
child, because I hear peoplesaying that all the time, like I
tried homeschool and I couldn'tdo it.
My kids just don't listen to melike they listen to their
teacher.
This is so hard, you know Well.
I think it's important forparents to just kind of take
(08:11):
that in and realize like, yes,even educators who are highly
skilled at positive disciplinelike, have a bit of a hard time
applying that to their ownchildren.
It's not impossible and itcertainly works, but there's a
shift when it's, you know,someone else's children versus
your own.
So thanks for just validatingthat.
That feels good.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, and if you're a parent and you haven't been an
educator before, just so youknow the inner workings of the
school environment, some of thekids who have who are the
biggest behavioral challenges,happen to be staff children.
So it's not easy for the kidseither.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yes, Great, I'm glad to know that.
Ok, oh.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So, yeah, it's been, it's, it's been a journey, and
the good news is that theseprinciples that we're going to
talk about today, jordan, theyapply at home as well as in a
school environment, andhopefully we leave today and
parents have a good sense, abeginning sense, on how to
(09:19):
implement some of thoseprinciples.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Absolutely Well, tell us, how is positive discipline
different from, I guess, kind ofdiscipline that most people are
used to, which I would say youknow, being a counselor and a
parent myself, are, you know,giving a consequence, grounding
someone, you know takingsomething away from someone.
So maybe we could just startwith that kind of defining
(09:44):
positive discipline and how it'sdifferent.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
So what struck me initially when I was sitting in
that first workshop that I took,was that the facilitator
started out really introducingthe principles that were the
underpinning of all of the tools, and so many times as a teacher
, as a parent, we're looking forthe right tool or the right
(10:09):
trick to be able to handle abehavior or a situation, and one
of the things that reallystruck home for me is that she
started talking about theprinciples that really drove the
tools of positive discipline,and that made sense to the way
that I thought, both as aMontessori educator and just as
(10:31):
a person in general.
And so you know, my wife and Iwere just, we were working
recently on our our, ourschedule, right, and we just
finished off a year where it wasjust I'm sure many people
identify with this we were justflat out and we don't want to be
there, right.
So before we started talkingabout solutions, the first thing
(10:51):
that we did is we startedtalking about the values and the
principles that we have aroundtime.
What do we want our home tolook like around time?
And it was a really logicalplace for me to start, because a
lot of times in a marriage orworking with kids.
A lot of times the difficultieswe have are on competing
priorities.
And so before, because we knowthat, whether you're in school
(11:14):
or marriage and relationshipwith kids, we're going to have
competing priorities.
So what are the principles thatwe're going to follow, that are
going to guide that you knowthat behavior and how we solve
problems.
So some of the principles ofpositive discipline that guide
you know, the philosophy thatguides, the tools that come out
(11:36):
of that are, you know, first andforemost is that understanding
that children's behavior isgenerally goal oriented.
Right Back in the seventies Ithink it was a Dr Spock was
talking about everything wasaround attention, right, you
know, the reason that childrenmisbehave is because they're
seeking attention and that isone of their goals.
But there are other goals thatchildren have and what Rudolf
(12:00):
Dreiker said he was one of thefounders of this work that you
know that we're doing is that amisbehaving child is a
discouraged child and whatthey're discouraged in is is
that we all have the principlethat we're you know, that I
think fits all of us is that weall have a deep of, socially and
emotionally, we all have a deepsense and desire to find a
(12:21):
belonging and significance orsense of connection with others,
with our family, with ourcommunities.
But children are born withsocial skills, so they seek out
that, not attention.
But you know, they seek outthat connection or that
belonging and significance in avariety of ways and a lot of
times those ways are they're noteffective, right, they're not.
(12:43):
So you know, let's say we usethat example of attention.
Well, there's a meme thatfloats around that says you know
, you know that children reallydesire connection, but they'll
settle for attention right.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Children desire connection, but they'll settle
for attention.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Okay, there's a few other, so that that would be
what we call a mistaken goal.
So it's a mistaken idea aboutwhat the child, that the child
has, about how to find thatsense of belonging significance,
and that's what you know.
That's where misbehavior comesfrom, from our perspective and
positive discipline.
So what, what what can happenis is that, in acting forth from
(13:27):
that mistaken idea of what,what they need to do to find
belonging significance, theyoften are met with resistance or
rejection in some sense form soan adult sat with them.
Their peers push back and theybecome discouraged.
And you know they're developinghuman beings.
You know children don't?
You know they don't have thesame cognitive skills or social
(13:50):
skills that we have, and sothey're not going home at night
thinking gosh.
You know, I tried to play withmy friends and I just kind of
shoved my way into thatsituation.
They got mad at me.
Tomorrow I'm going to go try toask respectfully, right.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
They actually tend to .
You know they're there becausethey they enter into a
misbehavior cycle, right?
So I'm looking for belongingsignificance.
If I don't know how to get itin an effective way, you know I
operate from a mistaken belief.
I tend to get resistance, I getdiscouraged, I double down and
(14:41):
the cycle kind of continues andthe cycle kind of continues.
So when I first heard that, itmade a lot of sense to me
because I always sensed thatchildren were looking for
something.
There was a need, somethingdeep inside of them that they
were looking for to have metthrough misbehavior, but without
(15:02):
understanding what it reallywas.
It was difficult to try tonavigate.
The other principle is thateffective discipline allows
everybody to maintain a sense ofdignity and respect, both for
adults and children.
So we kick around the worldwe're equality a lot.
(15:24):
And so we kick around the world, we're equality a lot.
And when we talk about children, you know what we mean by that
is is that that everybodydeserves to be treated with
dignity and respect.
They still need leadership andguidance, education and direct
(15:46):
teaching, but they also need tobe respected for how capable
they can be right.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So that's a big part of what we do.
Is that you know?
as you mentioned effectivediscipline.
It should be kind and firm atthe same time, and in a way that
upholds the dignity and respectfor everybody involved in a
situation.
Now, what's the other?
The other thing that I justwanted to mention is and this,
this one really stuck with me,but I didn't know how to
(16:21):
implement it, and that is isthat, with this idea of dignity
and respect, we look at thechildren as we understand
they're going to make mistakesas they develop and as they grow
socially.
It is messy business.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
You know you're part of a family I mean it's.
You know we have conflict, wehave different perceptions,
different priorities, and welearn misbehavior as a mistake.
That is really an opportunityfor them to learn, I think is a
(17:08):
really critical piece of thiswork, and so that, as we
implement some of the tools thatwe'll talk about in a bit,
treating those misbehaviors as amistake you know not with not
with being permissive, but justas a mistake that there's a,
there's a growth opportunityhere.
And how can we help facilitatethat growth?
Because we know that the childis really just looking to find a
(17:29):
sense of belonging andsignificance and it's our
responsibility to help them toget there in a way that's
effective and it's going to berespectful to the people around
them.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, this is great I'm.
I'm making a few notes because Ithink it's so important and I
want to just echo what you saidabout treating misbehaviors as a
mistake and as a learningopportunity.
Because, as you actually saidthat and I was listening closely
I noticed just in my own bodyjust like my shoulders kind of
melt down and have more of asoftness, just internally, just
(18:04):
even considering that that achild's misbehavior is a mistake
, right, it comes from amistaken belief and, like you
said, if they're doubling downand going full blast into this
behavior, it's not becausethey're trying to upset their
friends.
(18:25):
They've got something againstyou, the parent or the teacher,
and they're just really tryingto get back at you.
I mean, this is not personal,this is them just learning and
growing and trying new things onand it's an opportunity for
growth.
So I think the mindset aroundit as a parent just being
willing to consider that themisbehavior is a mistake and an
(18:47):
opportunity for growth and weshould expect lots of those from
our kids because they are stillgrowing and developing I think
that alone can shift how weapproach discipline in that
scenario.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, and just adjusting what our expectations
are.
I had a colleague say one timethat children have.
He just made a statement.
Children have differentpriorities than adults do, and I
had that same experience.
Yeah, yeah, it would be strangeif they had the same priorities
(19:21):
.
We would probably be worried ifour kids came home at the end
of the day.
You know, mom, can we hold offon dinner for about a half hour?
I've got a ton of homework todo.
I want to get it done and Ireally want to make sure my room
is clean and my chores are doneso I can just relax at dinner
and really enjoy our company.
Right, that would be strange.
Right, we would think whathappened.
I think I need to.
They need some help.
(19:41):
So kids have differentpriorities than we do as well,
and just knowing that was likeoh wow, that makes makes a lot
of sense.
As a matter of fact, sometimeswe can learn a lot from their
priorities and maybe we shouldadopt some of them.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
True, absolutely true , great.
Okay, so I heard you talk aboutkind and firm at the same time,
respecting, and you know, thedignity of the human person and
the fact that this child isgrowing and developing, and
maybe talk a little bit to thatand, in particular, fathers just
(20:25):
say you know well, they need torespect me.
You know, I am the authorityand we're not friends, so
there's nothing about thisrelationship that puts us on the
same plane, and so I'm reallyafraid that, like, using some of
these techniques will seem liketo my child that I'm their
friend and that they will loserespect for me from a place of
authority.
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
What does that bring up for you?
Yeah, and there's actually somevalidity to that.
But first of all I would say,yeah, our positional authority
is important.
Children need that.
They don't feel safe withoutlimits and guidance and
structure.
You know, one of the thingsthat you know, Jane and I have
talked about this before is thatone of the problems with the
title positive discipline isit's really misunderstood.
(21:08):
When people hear it, theyperseverate on one of those two
words, either positive ordiscipline.
And when they're perseveratingon the idea of positivity, you
know they're thinking of justyou know, usually what comes to
mind is permissiveness and, if Ican, just you know, nice and
give lots of praise and somerewards that hopefully my child
will behave like, maybe like adog, Right, and then and then
(21:29):
discipline is associated with,you know, being authoritarian
and it's my way, or the highway,and you know you need to get on
board.
But the truth is is that theroot word, the Latin root from
discipline, means to teach andto learn Right, and so
discipline in and of itself ispositive, Right.
Well, we need that, and DrMontessori I mean Montessori was
(21:56):
, you know.
Her foundational principles isthat children need freedom, but
within limits.
Yes foundational principles isthat children need freedom, but
within limits.
Yes, so they need to learn tonavigate the world around them
and have the freedom to makemistakes, so they build things
like resilience and confidenceand a sense of capability.
But if those limits are toowide, they're going to get hurt.
Right, they're not going to.
They're actually.
They may shut down or they may,you know, they may be
(22:18):
completely undisciplinedinternally.
So they need limits so thatthey can grow and make those
choices safely and experiencethe consequences of their
behavior, both positive andnegative, you know, in a way
that builds their ownself-discipline and their own
self-regulation and an internalmotivation, rather than it being
(22:44):
fully external.
And there's.
You know, it's a confusingculture right now to be a parent
.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, and it has been for a while.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
You know, when I was growing up I'm going to be 58 in
November so I grew up in thelate 60s and throughout the 70s
and there was a shift that washappening then from a much more
authoritarian culture to a muchmore permissive one.
In my elementary school we hadtwo wings.
(23:20):
One was built first and it wastile floors, cement walls, desks
in rows, chalkboard at thefront.
The other new wing that wasbuilt in the 70s had carpet,
didn't have real walls, they haddividers.
There were a lot of chalkboards.
We were all sitting around incircles.
It was like in the same pool.
(23:44):
Yes, and it's really like.
You know what I remember aboutbeing in the first first, you
know, the desk and row side wasis that I felt very confined and
it felt cold and authoritarian.
All the hippie teachers were inthe, you know, were in the
other wing, and it felt a littletoo loosey, gooseyy, like I
wasn't learning a lot, and itwas loud because there weren't
any walls.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, yes.
Yes, the pendulum always swingsso far to the other side.
It seems like it doesn't dropin the middle too often.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Right, and with parenting, that's one of the
things that happened.
In some ways it was probablyeasier in the 50s and sixties
and before, in a moreauthoritarian culture, because a
lot of people were doing thesame thing, right, and I
remember growing up it wasn'tuncommon for one of my my friend
, you know, my friend's parentsto discipline me Right, and it
(24:35):
was usually authoritarian.
It was, you know, top downdefinitely.
And you know, we all, a lot ofus who are old, we remember that
.
You know, if we got in troublefrom one of our friend's parents
, then it would be they, myparents, would ask me what did I
do, you know, and not yell atthe other parent.
Well, that's gone completely theother way.
But it's confusing becausethere are books like ours and
(24:58):
there are many other books thatare out there that you know,
different, that's gentleparenting now, and you know, and
so everybody, you know, there'sall these parents, everybody's
trying to do the right thing.
But unfortunately, whathappened is the pendulum has
swung and we've we've gone froma top, you know, a vertical
approach where it's top down,with the adult here, children
(25:19):
down here, in an attempt to findand I think all of the attempt
was to find a sense of dignityand respect for everybody.
But in that shift we've gone alittle too far and in many, many
cases it's still a verticalenvironment, but the child's on
top and the adult's on thebottom.
And you can hear it inconversations.
(25:39):
I've done it myself where youcan you know?
Where do you want to go fordinner today?
My parents would have neverasked me that question, right?
Yes, and, and so children aremany adults.
So we can't, from theauthoritarian perspective, the,
the, the parent is asking thechild to be an adult and have
all the responsibility of anadult, with a permissive, you
(26:00):
know, approach.
The adult is is putting thechild in charge and having all
those abilities, and both ofthem are not great for kids,
right?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So the idea of discipline is that it's both
kind.
So we want to be warm,connected, accepting, supportive
, but also firm, with clear andappropriate boundaries, and have
the adults still be the adults.
We're not friends with thechildren.
We may be friendly, we may bewarm, connected, but it's an
(26:31):
adult-child relationship, not achild-child relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yes, thank you for clarifying that.
I agree with you that thependulum has swung and out of a
place of wanting to respect, youknow, the dignity of the other
person, but oftentimes we justgo the opposite of what you know
didn't work and so it soundslike this.
(26:55):
You know positive disciplinelands right there in the middle.
It's kind of you know both likeyou're talking about having
boundaries, having guardrailsaround the relationship, and the
child clearly knows what isexpected but also has the
freedom because they're lovedand their parent is being warm
to them and not shaming them.
(27:16):
If they've made a mistake orbehaved in a way that didn't get
them the outcome they wanted,then they still them the outcome
they wanted, then they stillhave the freedom to make those
mistakes within the boundariesof that relationship and feel
like this is okay, this isacceptable.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Right, and you know the idea of kind and firm the
phrase after that is criticalwhich is at the same time right,
so I can be kind with my kids,I can be firm with them.
I'm doing them at the same time, especially if I'm under some
stress, might be a littledifficult, right.
And so, um, we want to becareful of, you know, one of the
(27:53):
pitfalls that we fall into asadults.
Sometimes, as we do it, we do abit of a dance, right?
So when I'm under stress, um,guess what, I tend to misbehave.
Sure, for me personally, whereI tend to go, when I'm
misbehaving, I actually tend tobecome more authoritarian.
It's my way the highway, get inthe car Now.
I joke around and say you know,if it's, if I'm rushing
(28:14):
everybody out the door and I'mtrying to go to school and five
minutes late, and you know I'mgoing to sound a little bit like
this Get in the car now.
Five, four, three, I don't care, you're Montessori kids, you
should be independent.
Get in the car now.
These are natural consequences,right?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
If I had a bumper sticker it would read you know
you're not parenting if no one'scrying.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Oh, my yeah yes.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
But I'm not a sociopath.
So then what happens is lateron, I'm not liking myself too
much in my behavior, so I and Ifeel guilty.
So then I flipped to the otherside and become you know, you
know, let's forget about therules.
I know chores that can waittill tomorrow.
Let's go out for dinner for icecream, I'm sorry about my
behavior, and um, and then bythe end of the day I don't like
them very much and I'm back downto the authoritarian side and
(28:57):
so, and that can happeninternally, it can also happen
between two parents right.
Yes.
So if I'm being more permissive, guess where my wife is going
to.
I'm going to push my wife.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Way over to the friendly side.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And so if I'm authoritarian, she becomes
permissive.
She's permissive, I startovercompensating, become
authoritarian, and thatinconsistency is well.
It's not helpful for the kidsbecause they can't predict.
The environment becomesunpredictable.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yes, and when a child's in an environment where
it's unpredictable, they are inkind of fight or flight mode all
the time they're on the edgeright.
They have that sense ofheightened anxiety where they're
trying to predict what's goingto happen, to gain some control
or mastery over the environment,and it's very stressful for
(29:47):
them.
So I think, yeah, yeah, I cantotally agree with you on that.
You know, flipping from one endof the spectrum to the other to
try to kind of make up forwhatever mistake you made in
your behavior, and then gettingin this cycle yourself of
misbehavior as a parent.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, the adults are misbehaving, the kids are
misbehaving.
Nobody's having any fun.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Nobody, yes.
Well, what gets in the way ofpeople going from kind of a
traditional authoritarian basedparenting to this positive
discipline Like what do you hearparents most often say, or even
teachers that are a little bitresistant at first?
(30:28):
What are some of the barriersto kind of crossing over and
adopting this new style?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well, that's a great question.
The first thing is we'vealready talked about which is a
misunderstanding about whatpositive discipline is is that I
think there's a lot of timesthere's a misconception that it
might be permissive, right, anda lot of times people are coming
to a workshop, they're comingto find out about this work
because they're havingdifficulties and they don't want
to be permissive, right?
(30:55):
Yes, so I think, first of all,understanding that, that you
know, in looking at positivediscipline, that it advocates
both kindness and firmness atthe same time.
And the other thing is, is thatyou know, I think a lot of
times our own experience and youmentioned that that our
reaction, if there's some thingsthat we you know that didn't
(31:16):
work for us as kids, we justflip the other side of the same
coin.
So, if I have been and you knowI grew up in a family, you know
, my my parents divorced when Iwas about three.
My dad was definitely a productof the fifties, much more
authoritarian.
Top down my way the highway,you know, if you get C's, you
get a ground.
(31:36):
You're grounded for every daythat you have a C, so you just
stay into your homework.
You know, my mother neverlooked at my report card.
You know she's a hippie fromthe sixties.
You know what I mean, and so itwas.
It was a lot of dichotomy inthe way that I was raised.
So when I had my own kids orwhen I, even when I went to the
classroom there were, there wereunconscious principles that I
(32:00):
had adopted, that I said, okay,I'm never going to do this.
But the problem is I didn'thave a replacement behavior
right, oh, yes, right.
And so if I say I'm not going toyell at the kids, and then they
misbehave and I don't havesomething to do instead what
happens a lot of times as anadult if I don't have something
to do instead, it creates evenmore stress.
(32:22):
So I'm stressed in the firstplace because I'm seeing some
misbehavior.
I don't know how to deal withit.
I know what I don't want to do,so I try not to do it.
So if I'm trying not to yell atthem, maybe I'm just I try to
be overly compassionate.
And then, now that now I'minviting and facilitating
manipulation in the kids, right,and then I get really stressed
and I just wind up yelling atthem, right, and so then I.
(32:44):
Then what happens is you getinto your own cycle, which is
now I'm going to beat myself upbecause I just did what I didn't
said I wasn't going to do.
And then for me, my only choiceis either to to rationalize what
I did or to beat myself up anyyou know further, and neither
one of them are going to beproductive to my relationship
any further, and neither one ofthem are going to be productive
(33:05):
to my relationship building withthe kids.
So understanding that, just youknow, we do with toddlers,
right, one of the most importanttools to use with a toddler,
and I think, as grownupssometimes we're just big
toddlers we teach them.
We don't say no, don't do this,we show them what to do.
Instead, we teach them.
We don't say no, don't do this,we show them what to do.
Instead, we teach them what todo versus what not to do.
(33:25):
I don't think we ever.
I think effective teaching andleading like it's always showing
what the person what to doversus what, necessarily what
not to do right, yes, so when Istarted having some ways that
you know, some tools, somethingto do instead.
So I didn't misbehave myself.
(33:46):
I tell you it lowered my stresslevel.
Even if the tool that I usedwasn't that effective, it was
way better than what I was aboutto do, right.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yes yes.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So I think, to go back to your question and answer
it directly and succinctly, youknow, as people look at this
work, if they're trepidatious,understand that it's based on
some principles that I thinkmost people really agree with
Right, yes, and we've talkedabout some of those and that
(34:20):
it's about helping us to liveout those principles and showing
us what to do, rather than justa lecture on don't do this,
don't do this avoid this, avoidthat.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
You know the positive option at your fingertips and
to think through that.
If you decide I'm not going toyell at my kids or I'm never
going to ground them or justsnatch their cell phone away
from them, okay, what are yougoing to do instead?
Right, having that replacementdiscipline at your fingertips
(35:00):
and having practiced doing thata few times is, how are you
going to calm your ownfrustration or irritation
internally in order to deliverpositive discipline to your
child, where you're kind andfirm and maybe there is a
consequence that's attached toit, but you're not doing the
thing you didn't want to do?
(35:21):
That's just huge.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
That you have to have what you're going to do ready,
and that's really I mean, if youwere to wrap up, I think Jane
would be jumping up and down ifI said this, because I think
it's one of her favorite phrasesand vibes of this, one that we
use, and that is that the focusis more on with the kids and
(35:45):
with us, is focusing onsolutions rather than on playing
.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
And so even with my wife, when we were talking about
our schedule lately, the focuswas okay.
So we both have somefrustrations, we both have some
priorities that are important tous.
That's great, let's acknowledgethose.
But how are we going to figureit out?
What's the solution to thoseproblems?
Versus getting into a place ofplane, which tends to erode the
(36:14):
relationship and actuallyexacerbate a problem, even if
we're right.
Right, even if we have theright information or the right
answer.
If it's fueled with criticismor blame, it tends to.
You know, kids, children,adults we tend to respond the
same to that.
So, focusing on solutions.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
I like that because it's a team mentality as well.
It's like okay, what outcomeare you going here for and how
is it that I can help you to getthe outcome that you want, if
that outcome is something that'sacceptable, right, yeah, yeah,
let me put you on the spot herefor a minute.
Okay, so you gave the I theexample of kind of how you
(36:56):
handle the in the morning.
You know we're running fiveminutes late to school and and
you know your blood pressure'sgoing.
You, you said what you know youwould do if, if you got upset
and just kind of lost it, andthen you come back and make up
for it by, you know, tellingthem later you're going to take
(37:18):
them out to dinner and ice creamSame scenario.
Okay, using positive discipline,how would you go about
addressing the fact that yourkids are running late and you've
got to get going?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So, for the sake of time, what I'll do is I'll do is
I'll get kind of give anexample of one tool, because
there are many tools.
One of the one of the thingsthat adults were always looking
looking for is we want a matrixright, like if you do this, if a
child does this and you do this, and then you do this.
And there really is no magicbullet like that, and I'm sure
if I, if I told your audiencethat there was, I would lose all
(37:53):
my credibility, because we alltried those things and found
them.
Maybe they work for a fewminutes or for a few days, but
they don't generally work for itfor the long term.
So one of my favorite tools touse is something we call
motivational curiosity questions.
So for me, when I'm under stress, what I tend to do I'm checked
(38:17):
because they tend to give a lotof directives right.
Yes, when I do a workshop, Iusually tell folks this is the
reason I love presenting this isbecause it's something it's a
blind spot for me.
It's something that I alwaysneed to work on.
So even when I teach it, itreally helps to ingrain it in me
and so, in a rush, getting thekids out the door.
I might say something like goget your coat on.
(38:39):
Uh, you need to get your lunchtogether.
You know I need you in the carright now.
So what I'm doing is I'm givingI'm giving directives, really
things that the kids alreadyknow that they need to do.
So I'm giving them a lot ofreminders and a lot of
directives.
So what I always ask adults isthat you know, when you get a
(39:04):
directive or a reminder forsomething that you already know,
how do you respond?
You know what feeling does thatgenerate in you?
Um, are you more likely tocooperate?
Uh, one of the things you know,one of the phrases in our
sentences, in our books is youknow, um, reminding children of
(39:25):
things that they already know isdisrespectful.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
It is, it totally is.
When you said that, how wouldyou respond?
If someone said something toyou that you're, I would respond
I know.
And that's what my kids say tome when I tell them that I know.
And then what do I say?
I talk back to their backtalk.
I say if you know, then whyaren't you doing it?
And then it's just in this backand forth and it's like oh no,
(39:48):
I've become the child.
The parent has become the child.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Right.
So, rather than give thosedirectives, the child may need
some redirection in that moment.
So it doesn't mean that theydon't need to be redirected.
If I'm giving a directive,really, there's a couple of
assumptions that I have, orreminder is that there's usually
(40:13):
the underlying assumptions thatthe child knows what to do,
right, especially if I'mfrustrated, and that they, um,
they know what the expectationis, um, so that's where I went
up giving the directive.
But what it could sound like isthis well, let me, let me give
you a few directives and thenI'll, I'll.
And if your audience just wantsto listen and pretend you're a
(40:34):
child, you can just feel howthis feels for you, okay.
Okay, go get on your coat.
Okay, put your toys away.
Go clean up your room, put yourdishes in the sink, okay.
(40:56):
So just take a moment anddigest that, how you might be
feeling, what decisions youmight be making as a result of
those feelings.
Now I'm going to try somethinga little bit different.
What do you need to do if youdon't want to be cold outside?
(41:20):
Where can you put your toys sothey?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
won't get stepped on and broken.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Okay, how can you arrange your room so that it's
ready for bedtime?
Where do your dishes go afterwe finish dinner?
And usually we end thosequestions with just some what I
call presence, warmth andsilence.
So if a child says I don't know, I might just give a knowing
smile.
I'm not going to respond.
(41:49):
He's going to say I know that,you know, you know that I know
and I trust that you're going tofollow through, right?
Speaker 1 (41:56):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
And that was a that for me.
That was a really um importanttool when I first started doing
this work, because I was, youknow, when I was in the
classroom I was giving a lot ofdirectives and a lot of
reminders and the kids wereresponding.
You know, as we talked about,it wasn't great.
And then I would, you know, I'dcomplain about the kids that
they think they never listened,and essentially that's what
(42:19):
Margaret was saying to me in afairly kind and firm way, which
is, you know, I was inviting alot of the misbehavior and she
was using tools like this.
Like there was no doubt, when Iwatched her do things like this,
that she meant business.
Like she wasn't asking thosequestions permissively, she
wasn't giving the childnecessarily an option to do
(42:42):
something else than what theywere supposed to be doing.
She was giving a prompt to themand so, rather than stuffing in
the information, she was usinga question to draw forth right.
Yes, so you notice thosequestions.
They all began with what or howand they're designed to trigger
a response in the children's,for them to think about what to
(43:02):
do or how to do it, rather thanwhether or not they're going to
do it right.
And the problem with directiveis that, you know, it really
leaves the directee with twochoices right, right.
And the problem with directiveis is, is that you know it
really leaves the directee withwith two choices, right?
So a lot of times I'll ask youknow, how many choices do you
have?
If you get a directive?
People say, well, I just haveone.
And it's not really right, youhave two.
(43:23):
You can you can comply or youcan rebel.
Right, you can do it or not doit, can do it or not do it.
And a lot of times when I'mgiving a directive, I um, I'm in
a rush or I'm stressed and Ireally, you know, just selfishly
, I want a better than a 50, 50chance.
Yes, yes, please.
(43:43):
Now, that's just selfishlylong-term, are those, are those
the characteristics that I wantto cultivate in my kids?
So I to cultivate compliance orresentment or rebellion.
Honestly, I like cooperation.
I'm not really looking forcompliance.
I hear a lot of employers outthere saying gosh, I just wish
(44:05):
my employees would be compliant.
That term just gives me thewillies it might be nice in the
moment, but it's not going tohelp your business grow.
It's not going to open up aconversation to somebody giving
a suggestion that might improvethings.
And when we ask the questions,the children are focused on what
(44:27):
to do or how to do it, andthere might be some wiggle room
in how they accomplish something, but we're not asking them
whether or not they want to doit.
There's an expectation or alimit that we're maintaining in
that moment, but we're true toby drawing forth versus stuffing
in.
And it's interesting there'ssome research that shows that
(44:49):
when people get directives,they're actually whole body
changing tense up.
They start to get intodefensive posture.
When we're asked questions, wetend to open up and start to go
inside and start to think, andso that would be an example of
being kind and firm at the sametime.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yes, okay, again, making notes for myself too,
because I do not have it allfigured out over here, I am just
the host of the show.
But directives versus askingmotivational curiosity questions
and that's my takeaway so farthat is what I'm holding on to.
That's going to be my call toaction for myself is, instead of
(45:32):
giving a firm directive ortelling my child what they
already know to do, ask a how orwhat kind of question.
Yes, I love that, and you'reright, the feeling in the body
is so different.
You're bouncing it back to themfor like exploration and kind
of, like you know, giving themthe benefit of the doubt.
(45:55):
You know how this goes, and soget to searching around your
mind and be able to tell me theprocess and then engage in the
process and do what it is youneed to do.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
And you know, another principle just to keep in mind
is that these, these tools thatare for follow through and for
setting, maintaining limits,they're they're much more
effective if we have a sense ofconnection before correction,
right, and that can happen inthe big term.
Matter of fact, it just it justoccurred as something I was
thinking about this morning,before you and I met, and that
(46:32):
is that I came downstairs earlythis morning because I had an
early morning meeting to myoffice to do some work and
answer some emails and I hadn'teven gotten a chance to say good
morning to my son, peter.
And when I went upstairs Ilooked out back and, um, there's
a those little test stripsfloating in the pool, um, and
(46:53):
it's my son's job to um to takecare of the pool, he's 14.
And so, you know, I just saidsomething like I noticed that
those test strips are floatingin the pool, um, and he said, oh
, I'll go grapple Right, so itwas a real quick, but it it felt
empty to me.
Um, it was, I was using apositive discipline tool, which
is I was just making an I noticestatement which said to him I
(47:19):
know that you know right and youknow, thank you?
Yes, but I didn't even have achance to say good morning to
him.
And so even when I used one ofthese tools without that sense
of connection, I felt actually alittle bit of disconnect
between he and I, and so a realfundamental principle that we
(47:40):
try to encourage is that idea ofconnection before correction,
and it can take place in a bigpicture, like you know.
Maybe next time I say you knowwhat?
What's the big deal?
The thing floating in the pool,it's not, it's sealed up.
I just don't like where it is.
Um, and let me say good morning, and I'll come back to that
later, uh, or it could just besomething in the moment where I
(48:03):
just say hey.
I love you very much.
Good morning, good to see you.
And hey, I noticed that the uh,you know, uh the things out in
the pool.
Great, just take care of thatfor me, thanks.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
So good.
Yes, connection beforecorrection.
Again, another great takeaway,and I can relate to that.
I tell the story about how Iused to be just so rushed all
the time, doing everything foreveryone, even beyond the years
where they could have taken onthese responsibilities for
themselves.
And I would come in the doorfrom work and I would just start
(48:34):
barking out orders.
You know I'm tripping overshoes and backpacks and I'm
going pick up your shoes.
Has anyone started theirhomework?
And like, that's fun.
First I'm yelling directivesand I haven't even connected
with them yet.
Right, I haven't even made asimple greeting like oh hey,
guys, it's good to be home, it'sgood to be home from the office
(48:54):
with you.
And can we get?
to picking up these shoes.
You think you know where do theshoes go.
I ask in the motivationalcuriosity questions after I've
connected.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Right, well, and we all do that.
I mean, it's life is crazy, youknow, especially start having a
few kids.
It's there's, there's neverenough time.
And you know, I have a 22 yearold and I it goes by fast, yes,
it goes by fast.
And you know, in 10 years I'mnot going to care about what
happened to the shoes, but I amgoing to care about that, you
(49:28):
know.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
You know, if I missed opportunities for connection,
out that you know if I missedopportunities for connection,
yes, and that's where thatrespect and warmth comes in, and
making sure that, yeah, you arerepairing any ruptures that
you're making when you do have amisstep in your discipline or
your parenting right.
I talk about that so much.
It's so important to repair andto say that we're sorry and ask
(49:50):
for forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean it's, and that youknow when we, when we admit our
own mistakes.
It really frees up theenvironment for you know, to you
know, we're one of theprinciples we talked about,
which is that mistakes are anopportunity to learn for us too.
We're going to make mistakeswhen we do you know, when we
take responsibility withoutblame or excuses.
(50:12):
It's amazing.
Kids not only do they does itfree up the environment, free up
them to be able to makemistakes without the word of
blame or shame or humiliation,but they begin to model that.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
You know I'll just tell you a quick story.
I know we're running out oftime, but there's one of the
things, there's directives.
That was one of the things thatI just naturally and still is
something I have to be verymindful of.
One of the things that I thinkI've done well as a parent is
been able to admit when I made amistake.
I will tell you, it is mucheasier to admit when I make a
(50:51):
mistake If I have a replacementbehavior that I know that I can
do.
If I don't, it's a lot harderbecause I don't know that I'm
not going to make that mistakeagain.
So that's where I think havingsome tools to use so that we
have context for our mistakesand we can actually learn from
them is really important.
It actually takes a lot of heatoff of us because now I say,
(51:12):
okay, there is something I cando differently next time.
That frees me up to be able tosay you know, hey, listen,
jordan, I.
I snapped at you when I came inthis morning and you didn't
deserve that.
You know I would be reallyupset if you treated me that way
, and it was.
You know you must've feltreally hurt.
Would you please forgive me.
And now I also know that youknow, next time I'm going to do
(51:33):
something a little bitdifferently, right?
Yes, and we've repaired and I'vealso modeled and I've watched
that with my kids you know myson, peter and Teresa, who are
the ones I have five children,and Peter and Teresa are the
ones who have the most siblingrivalry between them.
One morning a few years ago wewere on our way to school and
Peter was just at least from myperspective.
(51:54):
I didn't hear the whole thing,but it sounded like Peter was
just giving Teresa a really hardtime.
And I know I've been doing theparenting thing now long enough
to know that I should stay outof those arguments because I'll
just make it worse, right, andso I was practicing, trying to
practice what I preach stayingout of the argument.
Then there was some silenceafter the back and forth and a
few minutes later I hear Petersay you know, teresa, I wasn't
(52:18):
being fair to you, I was being ajerk, would you please forgive
me.
And of course, teresa, beingTeresa, said I'll think about it
.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Delayed forgiveness.
I'm going to make it hurt for aminute for you, brother.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
But those are almost the exact words, in the exact
way that I would have saidsomething.
I wouldn't have said, jerk, butyou know it was.
You know, with the same waythat I would have said that, and
it was really a moment like,wow, they, they watch and they
listen, um, and so we don't haveto be perfect.
Um, but to your point, when werepair, there's a lot of healing
that takes place and a lot ofconnection that opens up the
(52:58):
opportunity for future success.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
Yes and again.
Apologizing and asking forforgiveness does not remove your
authority as the parent.
It actually elevates you intheir mind, right?
You rise on the respect meterto them.
It's like, wow, mom and dadmake mistakes and they're
willing to acknowledge them andask me for forgiveness Like
(53:21):
that's really cool for a kid,you know.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
It's a big deal and it's not, you know it's.
It's a hard skill to learn as aparent, because you know when
I'm, sometimes I'll be in a roomwith a hundred people and I'll
ask how many of you, um, haveever remember an adult making
amends with you?
And there's usually about three, four hands that go up right,
yes, and so a lot of the adultshaven't had it modeled for them
(53:46):
themselves, and so we, we walk,walk through the world of
parenting, thinking that we haveto be perfect or be perceived
as perfect.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
Yeah, no, just just allowing yourself, like you said
, to make a mistake andunderstand that that's a growing
opportunity for you too andyou're worthy of forgiveness.
That's huge Just accepting thatas an adult, that I'm worthy of
forgiveness and repair, even ifI didn't get it from my own
(54:17):
parents.
And how can I make sure thatI'm modeling that and genuinely
kind of implementing that in myown parenting with my kids?
Speaker 2 (54:28):
Great point.
I'm glad you brought that upkids.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Great point, I'm glad you brought that up.
Good stuff, chip.
Thank you for bringing thegoodness when it comes to
positive discipline and a newway.
Again, I think one of thebiggest takeaways is make sure
you have in your back pocketwhat you're going to do instead
of that one thing that comes toyour mind that you just hate
when you do it with your kidsyelling, screaming, cussing, you
(54:57):
know, barking out orders orgiving them directives when you
haven't greeted them orconnected with them yet.
Think about in your mind,parents, what it is that you
want to kind of eradicate fromthe discipline that you've been
doing and the way you've beeninteracting with your kids, and
think of one of these thingsthat Chip has shared with us
(55:18):
today and really challengeyourself to consider changing
the way you do things, askingmotivational, curiosity
questions instead of just givingdirections, making sure that
you're connecting before you'recorrecting, and then just
thinking about the dignity andrespect that your kids deserve,
(55:41):
as they are growing anddeveloping as children and are
meant to make these mistakes inorder to learn social and
emotional cues and how to relateto the world in a positive way.
So, chip, let's talk about howpeople can find you.
Are you on the social mediaplatforms?
Which social media platformscan they find Chip DeLorenzo?
Speaker 2 (56:05):
So they could find me on Instagram at Chip underscore
DeLorenzo and my website chipDeLorenzocom, and we're Facebook
LinkedIn, all the usual.
So usually come right up.
So, yeah, be happy to seeanybody and then you can.
You know, I'd really recommendJane's original book for parents
(56:26):
.
That's not something you know,that's, that's a book.
You know, that was the originalbook she wrote and it's still
my favorite.
It's a classic.
It's just Positive Disciplineby Jane Nelson and it's a
wonderful resource.
And if you read that with, youknow, your children's other
parent, it's, you know, beingable to operate at least
(56:46):
somewhat off of the same.
You know, reading off the samesheet of music, yes, is, you
know, incredibly, off the samesheet of music?
Speaker 1 (56:55):
um, uh is, uh, you know incredibly helpful, as we
all know.
Absolutely being a team on thesame page as as parents, is one
of the most important things wecan do, I think.
So.
That is called positivediscipline.
You can find that atpositivedisciplinecom or I'm
sure you can find it on Amazonor all the fun places, Awesome.
(57:16):
And then you two did a booktogether that is called Positive
Discipline in the MontessoriClassroom as well, which is
great.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
If you're a Montessori educator, that's a
great book.
If you're a parent, you mightwant to just check out Jane's
book.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
But yeah.
So she and I did a booktogether and it came out in 2021
.
Congratulations.
What a time to publish a booktoo, and I'm sure people needed
it at that time.
With COVID going on andeverybody flooding into the
Montessori schools from publicschools, it's like, ah, help us.
Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah, it was a swirl.
It was a swirl, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
It's like, ah, help us, yeah, it was a swirl.
It was a swirl, that's for sure, yes, awesome.
Well, guys, if you want anymore kind of education or
understanding around the idea ofpositive discipline or just the
Montessori philosophy and someof the ways that Montessori can
influence your parenting at home, we have three other podcast
episodes.
So number 50 of our show iscalled the Four Planes of
(58:15):
Development.
Episode 58 is called SimpleFour-Step Lessons that Will
Decrease Frustration with yourKids.
You can guarantee there's lotsof positive discipline in that
one.
And then episode 104 calledTeaching Children to Share, and
all three of those episodes wehave a guest, pauline Miert,
(58:36):
from the Sophia MontessoriAcademy, who was sharing with us
on those episodes.
They've been very, very popular.
So, speaking of Pauline Miertand Sophia Montessori Academy
here in Denver, colorado, chipis going to be coming to
Colorado.
If you're listening to thisbefore Sunday, august 4th, you
can go to sophiamontessoricomand sign up and come listen to
(59:04):
Chip's talk for parents.
I will be there.
I've already got my ticket.
So, chip, we hope to see you inDenver in August.
And thanks again for your guestappearance here on the Families
of Character show.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
Thanks for having me.
It was a lot of fun and it wasan honor.
Appreciate it, Jordi.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Awesome Guys, share this episode with others.
Take a minute to just give us arating and review so that our
podcast can reach more and moreparents across the globe.
Thanks so much, and I'll catchyou on another episode of our
show real soon, take care.
Welcome back parents.
Listen, today we're going totalk about discipline and if
you'd like to know how todiscipline in a way that is kind
and firm at the same time, alsohelps your child feel a sense
of belonging and significance,is effective long-term and
(00:23):
teaches valuable social and lifeskills for good character.
This is the Families ofCharacter show, you know, but
also invites your child todiscover how capable they are
and to use their personal powerin constructive ways.
You are going to want to staytuned until the end of this
episode.
Today we have an expert onpositive discipline on our show,
(00:47):
so welcome to the Families ofCharacter show, chip DeLorenzo.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you so much for having me, Jordan.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
So glad to have you on the show, guys.
Chip has been a Montessorieducator since 1995.
He's also the father of fiveMontessori children, and he and
his wife, kathy live in Loveland, ohio Good Midwesterner, I love
it.
He's the co-author with JaneNelson of Positive Discipline in
the Montessori Classroom, abook they wrote together, and as
(01:19):
a teacher, trainer and schoolconsultant, chip has worked with
thousands of Montessoriteachers and parents in teaching
the principles and practices ofpositive discipline, and he's
done that through workshops andvarious lectures.
He is the former head of schoolat the De Mariscotta Montessori
School, where he spent 20 yearsas a teacher and administrator,
(01:42):
and Chip holds early childhood,lower and upper elementary AMS
certifications and has workedextensively with Montessori
adolescent students AdolescentsI love it.
And positive discipline.
This is so good, chip.
So tell us, how did you firstbecome interested in positive
(02:03):
discipline?
This was before you even hadchildren, it looks like.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, by mistake, actually so like the I say that
with quotation marks around itso probably like the best things
that happened to us, it wasn'tmy plan.
So I actually ran into JaneNelson's work because I was
underwater in the classroom.
(02:27):
I was a brand new teacher and,like a lot of us who go into
teaching, you know I feltsomewhat prepared with the
Montessori curriculum and youknow what I was supposed to be
doing.
I was not, however, preparedfor the behavior, difficulties
and challenges that I met in theclassroom and, to be honest
(02:49):
with you, the principles we'regoing to talk about today.
I didn't grow up with thoseprinciples and I had an idea of
the person that I wanted to be,the teacher that I wanted to be,
but I was quickly.
I was underwater almostimmediately, almost immediately,
and you know, to make a longstory short, I had a really
(03:10):
caring, kind and firm mentor andboss who one day, after a
particularly challengingsituation with one of the
students, she put her arm aroundme and said Chip, I don't know
how to say this, but you'reinviting a lot of the
misbehavior that's happening inyour classroom.
Oh, and it kind of stung, butit was also.
(03:31):
You know, it's one of thosethings that somebody tells you,
a mentor tells you, and youdon't have time to think about
it and it kind of bypasses thatfilter that sits on top of our
shoulders and hits you right inthe heart, our shoulders, and
hits you right in the heart.
And you know, I was.
I knew it was true Jordan,because she used to come into my
(03:53):
classroom and and take over forme from time to time or to work
with me, and when, when she didum, it seemed like what she was
doing when I wasn't looking at,sprinkling magic dust on the
kids, uh, and cause they startedto do all these strange things,
like they'd raise their handswhen they wanted to speak in a
lesson and they would do theirwork, they would speak to her
respectfully, they would takeresponsibility for the things
they were responsible for in theclassroom, and then she left,
(04:18):
you know, go back to her office,and she always took her magic
dust with her, and so the kidsstopped doing all those things,
right, and so it doesn't take arocket scientist, you know, to
come up with the equation oflike, obviously it wasn't the
children and their abilities,because they were exhibiting
those abilities for pro-socialbehavior.
And you know good stewards ofthe community when she was there
(04:43):
, but then she left, so therewas only one shift in that
variable right.
That was the result in charge.
So so anyway, to make a longstory short, she recommended
some of Jane's work and before Iknew it, I was up attending a
workshop in Sacramento and andyou know what happened for me
was it was.
(05:05):
I think it was almost miraculous.
That's what it felt, becausewhen I got back into the
classroom after this workshop,in about six weeks, my, my
relationship with the kidschanged, and I think that's
really the true test of any, anydiscipline method that we use
is what is?
What does that look like interms of our relationship with
(05:27):
the children?
And I think I improved about100% in that six weeks.
Now, that's not saying a lot.
On a scale of one to 10, I wasat a one and I went to a two
right, so I had a long way to go.
But when you're at a one andyou go to a two, you really feel
it because you're desperate.
And that's where I was, I was,I was desperate, like a lot of
parents and teachers are.
(05:47):
Um, and I, you know, to.
You know what happened is isthat I started to become more
skilled with this matter of fact, over some time.
I started to.
It actually became a bit astrength of mine.
Um, the classroom managementand discipline and, uh, and
building strong relationshipswith the students that were
(06:07):
appropriate, like so I couldstill be the adult and they were
still kids but, we had a strongrelationship.
I was still the authority andthe leader in the classroom, but
there was a sense of dignityand respect that permeated the
environment and so, little byslowly, I started doing some
work with other teachers andthen, a bunch of years later,
(06:27):
jane and I wrote this book, andthat's kind of how this all came
to be, and I'll also just sharewith you that we're here to
talk about parents, and so thatwas my journey as an educator.
So in all of that, almost 30years of working in a school,
around seven, eight years intobeing a teacher, I had my own
(06:49):
children.
And I will say this to all theparents it's way easier working
with your children than it is myown.
So I had all this understanding, this knowledge how to work
with other people's children,but then having your own is a
completely different experience.
You know I used to judge theparents.
You know, as a teacher, like, ohmy gosh, I'll never do this or
(07:11):
I'll never do that.
And I know we all, all parents,do that before we have kids,
right?
You know, you see somebody'skid melting down in the, you
know, on a playground and oh mygosh, my kid will never do that
until it's our own child.
And so it was a whole newjourney being a parent, because
my children had direct access tothe, to you know, the things
(07:33):
that make up everything in myheart and all my hopes and
dreams for them, my ambitions,and so I had there's a whole new
learning process that wentalong with that.
The principles were still there, but, but my role had shifted,
my role had changed.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I appreciate you just saying that from a teacher's
perspective that it's so mucheasier to teach another person's
child, because I hear peoplesaying that all the time, like I
tried homeschool and I couldn'tdo it.
My kids just don't listen to melike they listen to their
teacher.
This is so hard, you know Well.
I think it's important forparents to just kind of take
(08:11):
that in and realize like, yes,even educators who are highly
skilled at positive disciplinelike, have a bit of a hard time
applying that to their ownchildren.
It's not impossible and itcertainly works, but there's a
shift when it's, you know,someone else's children versus
your own.
So thanks for just validatingthat.
That feels good.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, and if you're a parent and you haven't been an
educator before, just so youknow the inner workings of the
school environment, some of thekids who have who are the
biggest behavioral challenges,happen to be staff children.
So it's not easy for the kidseither.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yes, Great, I'm glad to know that.
Ok, oh.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So, yeah, it's been, it's, it's been a journey, and
the good news is that theseprinciples that we're going to
talk about today, jordan, theyapply at home as well as in a
school environment, andhopefully we leave today and
parents have a good sense, abeginning sense, on how to
(09:19):
implement some of thoseprinciples.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Absolutely Well, tell us, how is positive discipline
different from, I guess, kind ofdiscipline that most people are
used to, which I would say youknow, being a counselor and a
parent myself, are, you know,giving a consequence, grounding
someone, you know takingsomething away from someone.
So maybe we could just startwith that kind of defining
(09:44):
positive discipline and how it'sdifferent.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
So what struck me initially when I was sitting in
that first workshop that I took,was that the facilitator
started out really introducingthe principles that were the
underpinning of all of the tools, and so many times as a teacher
, as a parent, we're looking forthe right tool or the right
(10:09):
trick to be able to handle abehavior or a situation, and one
of the things that reallystruck home for me is that she
started talking about theprinciples that really drove the
tools of positive discipline,and that made sense to the way
that I thought, both as aMontessori educator and just as
(10:31):
a person in general.
And so you know, my wife and Iwere just, we were working
recently on our our, ourschedule, right, and we just
finished off a year where it wasjust I'm sure many people
identify with this we were justflat out and we don't want to be
there, right.
So before we started talkingabout solutions, the first thing
(10:51):
that we did is we startedtalking about the values and the
principles that we have aroundtime.
What do we want our home tolook like around time?
And it was a really logicalplace for me to start, because a
lot of times in a marriage orworking with kids.
A lot of times the difficultieswe have are on competing
priorities.
And so before, because we knowthat, whether you're in school
(11:14):
or marriage and relationshipwith kids, we're going to have
competing priorities.
So what are the principles thatwe're going to follow, that are
going to guide that you knowthat behavior and how we solve
problems.
So some of the principles ofpositive discipline that guide
you know, the philosophy thatguides, the tools that come out
(11:36):
of that are, you know, first andforemost is that understanding
that children's behavior isgenerally goal oriented.
Right Back in the seventies Ithink it was a Dr Spock was
talking about everything wasaround attention, right, you
know, the reason that childrenmisbehave is because they're
seeking attention and that isone of their goals.
But there are other goals thatchildren have and what Rudolf
(12:00):
Dreiker said he was one of thefounders of this work that you
know that we're doing is that amisbehaving child is a
discouraged child and whatthey're discouraged in is is
that we all have the principlethat we're you know, that I
think fits all of us is that weall have a deep of, socially and
emotionally, we all have a deepsense and desire to find a
(12:21):
belonging and significance orsense of connection with others,
with our family, with ourcommunities.
But children are born withsocial skills, so they seek out
that, not attention.
But you know, they seek outthat connection or that
belonging and significance in avariety of ways and a lot of
times those ways are they're noteffective, right, they're not.
(12:43):
So you know, let's say we usethat example of attention.
Well, there's a meme thatfloats around that says you know
, you know that children reallydesire connection, but they'll
settle for attention right.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Children desire connection, but they'll settle
for attention.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Okay, there's a few other, so that that would be
what we call a mistaken goal.
So it's a mistaken idea aboutwhat the child, that the child
has, about how to find thatsense of belonging significance,
and that's what you know.
That's where misbehavior comesfrom, from our perspective and
positive discipline.
So what, what what can happenis is that, in acting forth from
(13:27):
that mistaken idea of what,what they need to do to find
belonging significance, theyoften are met with resistance or
rejection in some sense form soan adult sat with them.
Their peers push back and theybecome discouraged.
And you know they're developinghuman beings.
You know children don't?
You know they don't have thesame cognitive skills or social
(13:50):
skills that we have, and sothey're not going home at night
thinking gosh.
You know, I tried to play withmy friends and I just kind of
shoved my way into thatsituation.
They got mad at me.
Tomorrow I'm going to go try toask respectfully, right.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
They actually tend to .
You know they're there becausethey they enter into a
misbehavior cycle, right?
So I'm looking for belongingsignificance.
If I don't know how to get itin an effective way, you know I
operate from a mistaken belief.
I tend to get resistance, I getdiscouraged, I double down and
(14:41):
the cycle kind of continues andthe cycle kind of continues.
So when I first heard that, itmade a lot of sense to me
because I always sensed thatchildren were looking for
something.
There was a need, somethingdeep inside of them that they
were looking for to have metthrough misbehavior, but without
(15:02):
understanding what it reallywas.
It was difficult to try tonavigate.
The other principle is thateffective discipline allows
everybody to maintain a sense ofdignity and respect, both for
adults and children.
So we kick around the worldwe're equality a lot.
(15:24):
And so we kick around the world, we're equality a lot.
And when we talk about children, you know what we mean by that
is is that that everybodydeserves to be treated with
dignity and respect.
They still need leadership andguidance, education and direct
(15:46):
teaching, but they also need tobe respected for how capable
they can be right.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So that's a big part of what we do.
Is that you know?
as you mentioned effectivediscipline.
It should be kind and firm atthe same time, and in a way that
upholds the dignity and respectfor everybody involved in a
situation.
Now, what's the other?
The other thing that I justwanted to mention is and this,
this one really stuck with me,but I didn't know how to
(16:21):
implement it, and that is isthat, with this idea of dignity
and respect, we look at thechildren as we understand
they're going to make mistakesas they develop and as they grow
socially.
It is messy business.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Mm, hmm.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
You know you're part of a family I mean it's.
You know we have conflict, wehave different perceptions,
different priorities, and welearn misbehavior as a mistake.
That is really an opportunityfor them to learn, I think is a
(17:08):
really critical piece of thiswork, and so that, as we
implement some of the tools thatwe'll talk about in a bit,
treating those misbehaviors as amistake you know not with not
with being permissive, but justas a mistake that there's a,
there's a growth opportunityhere.
And how can we help facilitatethat growth?
Because we know that the childis really just looking to find a
(17:29):
sense of belonging andsignificance and it's our
responsibility to help them toget there in a way that's
effective and it's going to berespectful to the people around
them.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, this is great I'm.
I'm making a few notes because Ithink it's so important and I
want to just echo what you saidabout treating misbehaviors as a
mistake and as a learningopportunity.
Because, as you actually saidthat and I was listening closely
I noticed just in my own bodyjust like my shoulders kind of
melt down and have more of asoftness, just internally, just
(18:04):
even considering that that achild's misbehavior is a mistake
, right, it comes from amistaken belief and, like you
said, if they're doubling downand going full blast into this
behavior, it's not becausethey're trying to upset their
friends.
(18:25):
They've got something againstyou, the parent or the teacher,
and they're just really tryingto get back at you.
I mean, this is not personal,this is them just learning and
growing and trying new things onand it's an opportunity for
growth.
So I think the mindset aroundit as a parent just being
willing to consider that themisbehavior is a mistake and an
(18:47):
opportunity for growth and weshould expect lots of those from
our kids because they are stillgrowing and developing I think
that alone can shift how weapproach discipline in that
scenario.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, and just adjusting what our expectations
are.
I had a colleague say one timethat children have.
He just made a statement.
Children have differentpriorities than adults do, and I
had that same experience.
Yeah, yeah, it would be strangeif they had the same priorities
(19:21):
.
We would probably be worried ifour kids came home at the end
of the day.
You know, mom, can we hold offon dinner for about a half hour?
I've got a ton of homework todo.
I want to get it done and Ireally want to make sure my room
is clean and my chores are doneso I can just relax at dinner
and really enjoy our company.
Right, that would be strange.
Right, we would think whathappened.
I think I need to.
They need some help.
(19:41):
So kids have differentpriorities than we do as well,
and just knowing that was likeoh wow, that makes makes a lot
of sense.
As a matter of fact, sometimeswe can learn a lot from their
priorities and maybe we shouldadopt some of them.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
True, absolutely true , great.
Okay, so I heard you talk aboutkind and firm at the same time,
respecting, and you know, thedignity of the human person and
the fact that this child isgrowing and developing, and
maybe talk a little bit to thatand, in particular, fathers just
(20:25):
say you know well, they need torespect me.
You know, I am the authorityand we're not friends, so
there's nothing about thisrelationship that puts us on the
same plane, and so I'm reallyafraid that, like, using some of
these techniques will seem liketo my child that I'm their
friend and that they will loserespect for me from a place of
authority.
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
What does that bring up for you?
Yeah, and there's actually somevalidity to that.
But first of all I would say,yeah, our positional authority
is important.
Children need that.
They don't feel safe withoutlimits and guidance and
structure.
You know, one of the thingsthat you know, Jane and I have
talked about this before is thatone of the problems with the
title positive discipline isit's really misunderstood.
(21:08):
When people hear it, theyperseverate on one of those two
words, either positive ordiscipline.
And when they're perseveratingon the idea of positivity, you
know they're thinking of justyou know, usually what comes to
mind is permissiveness and, if Ican, just you know, nice and
give lots of praise and somerewards that hopefully my child
will behave like, maybe like adog, Right, and then and then
(21:29):
discipline is associated with,you know, being authoritarian
and it's my way, or the highway,and you know you need to get on
board.
But the truth is is that theroot word, the Latin root from
discipline, means to teach andto learn Right, and so
discipline in and of itself ispositive, Right.
Well, we need that, and DrMontessori I mean Montessori was
(21:56):
, you know.
Her foundational principles isthat children need freedom, but
within limits.
Yes foundational principles isthat children need freedom, but
within limits.
Yes, so they need to learn tonavigate the world around them
and have the freedom to makemistakes, so they build things
like resilience and confidenceand a sense of capability.
But if those limits are toowide, they're going to get hurt.
Right, they're not going to.
They're actually.
They may shut down or they may,you know, they may be
(22:18):
completely undisciplinedinternally.
So they need limits so thatthey can grow and make those
choices safely and experiencethe consequences of their
behavior, both positive andnegative, you know, in a way
that builds their ownself-discipline and their own
self-regulation and an internalmotivation, rather than it being
(22:44):
fully external.
And there's.
You know, it's a confusingculture right now to be a parent
.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yes, and it has been for a while.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
You know, when I was growing up I'm going to be 58 in
November so I grew up in thelate 60s and throughout the 70s
and there was a shift that washappening then from a much more
authoritarian culture to a muchmore permissive one.
In my elementary school we hadtwo wings.
(23:20):
One was built first and it wastile floors, cement walls, desks
in rows, chalkboard at thefront.
The other new wing that wasbuilt in the 70s had carpet,
didn't have real walls, they haddividers.
There were a lot of chalkboards.
We were all sitting around incircles.
It was like in the same pool.
(23:44):
Yes, and it's really like.
You know what I remember aboutbeing in the first first, you
know, the desk and row side wasis that I felt very confined and
it felt cold and authoritarian.
All the hippie teachers were inthe, you know, were in the
other wing, and it felt a littletoo loosey, gooseyy, like I
wasn't learning a lot, and itwas loud because there weren't
any walls.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, yes.
Yes, the pendulum always swingsso far to the other side.
It seems like it doesn't dropin the middle too often.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Right, and with parenting, that's one of the
things that happened.
In some ways it was probablyeasier in the 50s and sixties
and before, in a moreauthoritarian culture, because a
lot of people were doing thesame thing, right, and I
remember growing up it wasn'tuncommon for one of my my friend
, you know, my friend's parentsto discipline me Right, and it
(24:35):
was usually authoritarian.
It was, you know, top downdefinitely.
And you know, we all, a lot ofus who are old, we remember that
.
You know, if we got in troublefrom one of our friend's parents
, then it would be they, myparents, would ask me what did I
do, you know, and not yell atthe other parent.
Well, that's gone completely theother way.
But it's confusing becausethere are books like ours and
(24:58):
there are many other books thatare out there that you know,
different, that's gentleparenting now, and you know, and
so everybody, you know, there'sall these parents, everybody's
trying to do the right thing.
But unfortunately, whathappened is the pendulum has
swung and we've we've gone froma top, you know, a vertical
approach where it's top down,with the adult here, children
(25:19):
down here, in an attempt to findand I think all of the attempt
was to find a sense of dignityand respect for everybody.
But in that shift we've gone alittle too far and in many, many
cases it's still a verticalenvironment, but the child's on
top and the adult's on thebottom.
And you can hear it inconversations.
(25:39):
I've done it myself where youcan you know?
Where do you want to go fordinner today?
My parents would have neverasked me that question, right?
Yes, and, and so children aremany adults.
So we can't, from theauthoritarian perspective, the,
the, the parent is asking thechild to be an adult and have
all the responsibility of anadult, with a permissive, you
(26:00):
know, approach.
The adult is is putting thechild in charge and having all
those abilities, and both ofthem are not great for kids,
right?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
So the idea of discipline is that it's both
kind.
So we want to be warm,connected, accepting, supportive
, but also firm, with clear andappropriate boundaries, and have
the adults still be the adults.
We're not friends with thechildren.
We may be friendly, we may bewarm, connected, but it's an
(26:31):
adult-child relationship, not achild-child relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yes, thank you for clarifying that.
I agree with you that thependulum has swung and out of a
place of wanting to respect, youknow, the dignity of the other
person, but oftentimes we justgo the opposite of what you know
didn't work and so it soundslike this.
(26:55):
You know positive disciplinelands right there in the middle.
It's kind of you know both likeyou're talking about having
boundaries, having guardrailsaround the relationship, and the
child clearly knows what isexpected but also has the
freedom because they're lovedand their parent is being warm
to them and not shaming them.
(27:16):
If they've made a mistake orbehaved in a way that didn't get
them the outcome they wanted,then they still them the outcome
they wanted, then they stillhave the freedom to make those
mistakes within the boundariesof that relationship and feel
like this is okay, this isacceptable.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Right, and you know the idea of kind and firm the
phrase after that is criticalwhich is at the same time right,
so I can be kind with my kids,I can be firm with them.
I'm doing them at the same time, especially if I'm under some
stress, might be a littledifficult, right.
And so, um, we want to becareful of, you know, one of the
(27:53):
pitfalls that we fall into asadults.
Sometimes, as we do it, we do abit of a dance, right?
So when I'm under stress, um,guess what, I tend to misbehave.
Sure, for me personally, whereI tend to go, when I'm
misbehaving, I actually tend tobecome more authoritarian.
It's my way the highway, get inthe car Now.
I joke around and say you know,if it's, if I'm rushing
(28:14):
everybody out the door and I'mtrying to go to school and five
minutes late, and you know I'mgoing to sound a little bit like
this Get in the car now.
Five, four, three, I don't care, you're Montessori kids, you
should be independent.
Get in the car now.
These are natural consequences,right?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
If I had a bumper sticker it would read you know
you're not parenting if no one'scrying.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Oh, my yeah yes.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
But I'm not a sociopath.
So then what happens is lateron, I'm not liking myself too
much in my behavior, so I and Ifeel guilty.
So then I flipped to the otherside and become you know, you
know, let's forget about therules.
I know chores that can waittill tomorrow.
Let's go out for dinner for icecream, I'm sorry about my
behavior, and um, and then bythe end of the day I don't like
them very much and I'm back downto the authoritarian side and
(28:57):
so, and that can happeninternally, it can also happen
between two parents right.
Yes.
So if I'm being more permissive, guess where my wife is going
to.
I'm going to push my wife.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Way over to the friendly side.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And so if I'm authoritarian, she becomes
permissive.
She's permissive, I startovercompensating, become
authoritarian, and thatinconsistency is well.
It's not helpful for the kidsbecause they can't predict.
The environment becomesunpredictable.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yes, and when a child's in an environment where
it's unpredictable, they are inkind of fight or flight mode all
the time they're on the edgeright.
They have that sense ofheightened anxiety where they're
trying to predict what's goingto happen, to gain some control
or mastery over the environment,and it's very stressful for
(29:47):
them.
So I think, yeah, yeah, I cantotally agree with you on that.
You know, flipping from one endof the spectrum to the other to
try to kind of make up forwhatever mistake you made in
your behavior, and then gettingin this cycle yourself of
misbehavior as a parent.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Yeah, the adults are misbehaving, the kids are
misbehaving.
Nobody's having any fun.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Nobody, yes.
Well, what gets in the way ofpeople going from kind of a
traditional authoritarian basedparenting to this positive
discipline Like what do you hearparents most often say, or even
teachers that are a little bitresistant at first?
(30:28):
What are some of the barriersto kind of crossing over and
adopting this new style?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well, that's a great question.
The first thing is we'vealready talked about which is a
misunderstanding about whatpositive discipline is is that I
think there's a lot of timesthere's a misconception that it
might be permissive, right, anda lot of times people are coming
to a workshop, they're comingto find out about this work
because they're havingdifficulties and they don't want
to be permissive, right?
(30:55):
Yes, so I think, first of all,understanding that, that you
know, in looking at positivediscipline, that it advocates
both kindness and firmness atthe same time.
And the other thing is, is thatyou know, I think a lot of
times our own experience and youmentioned that that our
reaction, if there's some thingsthat we you know that didn't
(31:16):
work for us as kids, we justflip the other side of the same
coin.
So, if I have been and you knowI grew up in a family, you know
, my my parents divorced when Iwas about three.
My dad was definitely a productof the fifties, much more
authoritarian.
Top down my way the highway,you know, if you get C's, you
get a ground.
(31:36):
You're grounded for every daythat you have a C, so you just
stay into your homework.
You know, my mother neverlooked at my report card.
You know she's a hippie fromthe sixties.
You know what I mean, and so itwas.
It was a lot of dichotomy inthe way that I was raised.
So when I had my own kids orwhen I, even when I went to the
classroom there were, there wereunconscious principles that I
(32:00):
had adopted, that I said, okay,I'm never going to do this.
But the problem is I didn'thave a replacement behavior
right, oh, yes, right.
And so if I say I'm not going toyell at the kids, and then they
misbehave and I don't havesomething to do instead what
happens a lot of times as anadult if I don't have something
to do instead, it creates evenmore stress.
(32:22):
So I'm stressed in the firstplace because I'm seeing some
misbehavior.
I don't know how to deal withit.
I know what I don't want to do,so I try not to do it.
So if I'm trying not to yell atthem, maybe I'm just I try to
be overly compassionate.
And then, now that now I'minviting and facilitating
manipulation in the kids, right,and then I get really stressed
and I just wind up yelling atthem, right, and so then I.
(32:44):
Then what happens is you getinto your own cycle, which is
now I'm going to beat myself upbecause I just did what I didn't
said I wasn't going to do.
And then for me, my only choiceis either to to rationalize what
I did or to beat myself up anyyou know further, and neither
one of them are going to beproductive to my relationship
any further, and neither one ofthem are going to be productive
(33:05):
to my relationship building withthe kids.
So understanding that, just youknow, we do with toddlers,
right, one of the most importanttools to use with a toddler,
and I think, as grownupssometimes we're just big
toddlers we teach them.
We don't say no, don't do this,we show them what to do.
Instead, we teach them.
We don't say no, don't do this,we show them what to do.
Instead, we teach them what todo versus what not to do.
(33:25):
I don't think we ever.
I think effective teaching andleading like it's always showing
what the person what to doversus what, necessarily what
not to do right, yes, so when Istarted having some ways that
you know, some tools, somethingto do instead.
So I didn't misbehave myself.
(33:46):
I tell you it lowered my stresslevel.
Even if the tool that I usedwasn't that effective, it was
way better than what I was aboutto do, right.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yes yes.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So I think, to go back to your question and answer
it directly and succinctly, youknow, as people look at this
work, if they're trepidatious,understand that it's based on
some principles that I thinkmost people really agree with
Right, yes, and we've talkedabout some of those and that
(34:20):
it's about helping us to liveout those principles and showing
us what to do, rather than justa lecture on don't do this,
don't do this avoid this, avoidthat.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
You know the positive option at your fingertips and
to think through that.
If you decide I'm not going toyell at my kids or I'm never
going to ground them or justsnatch their cell phone away
from them, okay, what are yougoing to do instead?
Right, having that replacementdiscipline at your fingertips
(35:00):
and having practiced doing thata few times is, how are you
going to calm your ownfrustration or irritation
internally in order to deliverpositive discipline to your
child, where you're kind andfirm and maybe there is a
consequence that's attached toit, but you're not doing the
thing you didn't want to do?
(35:21):
That's just huge.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
That you have to have what you're going to do ready,
and that's really I mean, if youwere to wrap up, I think Jane
would be jumping up and down ifI said this, because I think
it's one of her favorite phrasesand vibes of this, one that we
use, and that is that the focusis more on with the kids and
(35:45):
with us, is focusing onsolutions rather than on playing
.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
And so even with my wife, when we were talking about
our schedule lately, the focuswas okay.
So we both have somefrustrations, we both have some
priorities that are important tous.
That's great, let's acknowledgethose.
But how are we going to figureit out?
What's the solution to thoseproblems?
Versus getting into a place ofplane, which tends to erode the
(36:14):
relationship and actuallyexacerbate a problem, even if
we're right.
Right, even if we have theright information or the right
answer.
If it's fueled with criticismor blame, it tends to.
You know, kids, children,adults we tend to respond the
same to that.
So, focusing on solutions.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
I like that because it's a team mentality as well.
It's like okay, what outcomeare you going here for and how
is it that I can help you to getthe outcome that you want, if
that outcome is something that'sacceptable, right, yeah, yeah,
let me put you on the spot herefor a minute.
Okay, so you gave the I theexample of kind of how you
(36:56):
handle the in the morning.
You know we're running fiveminutes late to school and and
you know your blood pressure'sgoing.
You, you said what you know youwould do if, if you got upset
and just kind of lost it, andthen you come back and make up
for it by, you know, tellingthem later you're going to take
(37:18):
them out to dinner and ice creamSame scenario.
Okay, using positive discipline,how would you go about
addressing the fact that yourkids are running late and you've
got to get going?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So, for the sake of time, what I'll do is I'll do is
I'll get kind of give anexample of one tool, because
there are many tools.
One of the one of the thingsthat adults were always looking
looking for is we want a matrixright, like if you do this, if a
child does this and you do this, and then you do this.
And there really is no magicbullet like that, and I'm sure
if I, if I told your audiencethat there was, I would lose all
(37:53):
my credibility, because we alltried those things and found
them.
Maybe they work for a fewminutes or for a few days, but
they don't generally work for itfor the long term.
So one of my favorite tools touse is something we call
motivational curiosity questions.
So for me, when I'm under stress, what I tend to do I'm checked
(38:17):
because they tend to give a lotof directives right.
Yes, when I do a workshop, Iusually tell folks this is the
reason I love presenting this isbecause it's something it's a
blind spot for me.
It's something that I alwaysneed to work on.
So even when I teach it, itreally helps to ingrain it in me
and so, in a rush, getting thekids out the door.
I might say something like goget your coat on.
(38:39):
Uh, you need to get your lunchtogether.
You know I need you in the carright now.
So what I'm doing is I'm givingI'm giving directives, really
things that the kids alreadyknow that they need to do.
So I'm giving them a lot ofreminders and a lot of
directives.
So what I always ask adults isthat you know, when you get a
(39:04):
directive or a reminder forsomething that you already know,
how do you respond?
You know what feeling does thatgenerate in you?
Um, are you more likely tocooperate?
Uh, one of the things you know,one of the phrases in our
sentences, in our books is youknow, um, reminding children of
(39:25):
things that they already know isdisrespectful.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
It is, it totally is.
When you said that, how wouldyou respond?
If someone said something toyou that you're, I would respond
I know.
And that's what my kids say tome when I tell them that I know.
And then what do I say?
I talk back to their backtalk.
I say if you know, then whyaren't you doing it?
And then it's just in this backand forth and it's like oh no,
(39:48):
I've become the child.
The parent has become the child.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Right.
So, rather than give thosedirectives, the child may need
some redirection in that moment.
So it doesn't mean that theydon't need to be redirected.
If I'm giving a directive,really, there's a couple of
assumptions that I have, orreminder is that there's usually
(40:13):
the underlying assumptions thatthe child knows what to do,
right, especially if I'mfrustrated, and that they, um,
they know what the expectationis, um, so that's where I went
up giving the directive.
But what it could sound like isthis well, let me, let me give
you a few directives and thenI'll, I'll.
And if your audience just wantsto listen and pretend you're a
(40:34):
child, you can just feel howthis feels for you, okay.
Okay, go get on your coat.
Okay, put your toys away.
Go clean up your room, put yourdishes in the sink, okay.
(40:56):
So just take a moment anddigest that, how you might be
feeling, what decisions youmight be making as a result of
those feelings.
Now I'm going to try somethinga little bit different.
What do you need to do if youdon't want to be cold outside?
(41:20):
Where can you put your toys sothey?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
won't get stepped on and broken.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Okay, how can you arrange your room so that it's
ready for bedtime?
Where do your dishes go afterwe finish dinner?
And usually we end thosequestions with just some what I
call presence, warmth andsilence.
So if a child says I don't know, I might just give a knowing
smile.
I'm not going to respond.
(41:49):
He's going to say I know that,you know, you know that I know
and I trust that you're going tofollow through, right?
Speaker 1 (41:56):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
And that was a that for me.
That was a really um importanttool when I first started doing
this work, because I was, youknow, when I was in the
classroom I was giving a lot ofdirectives and a lot of
reminders and the kids wereresponding.
You know, as we talked about,it wasn't great.
And then I would, you know, I'dcomplain about the kids that
they think they never listened,and essentially that's what
(42:19):
Margaret was saying to me in afairly kind and firm way, which
is, you know, I was inviting alot of the misbehavior and she
was using tools like this.
Like there was no doubt, when Iwatched her do things like this,
that she meant business.
Like she wasn't asking thosequestions permissively, she
wasn't giving the childnecessarily an option to do
(42:42):
something else than what theywere supposed to be doing.
She was giving a prompt to themand so, rather than stuffing in
the information, she was usinga question to draw forth right.
Yes, so you notice thosequestions.
They all began with what or howand they're designed to trigger
a response in the children's,for them to think about what to
(43:02):
do or how to do it, rather thanwhether or not they're going to
do it right.
And the problem with directiveis that, you know, it really
leaves the directee with twochoices right, right.
And the problem with directiveis is, is that you know it
really leaves the directee withwith two choices, right?
So a lot of times I'll ask youknow, how many choices do you
have?
If you get a directive?
People say, well, I just haveone.
And it's not really right, youhave two.
(43:23):
You can you can comply or youcan rebel.
Right, you can do it or not doit, can do it or not do it.
And a lot of times when I'mgiving a directive, I um, I'm in
a rush or I'm stressed and Ireally, you know, just selfishly
, I want a better than a 50, 50chance.
Yes, yes, please.
(43:43):
Now, that's just selfishlylong-term, are those, are those
the characteristics that I wantto cultivate in my kids?
So I to cultivate compliance orresentment or rebellion.
Honestly, I like cooperation.
I'm not really looking forcompliance.
I hear a lot of employers outthere saying gosh, I just wish
(44:05):
my employees would be compliant.
That term just gives me thewillies it might be nice in the
moment, but it's not going tohelp your business grow.
It's not going to open up aconversation to somebody giving
a suggestion that might improvethings.
And when we ask the questions,the children are focused on what
(44:27):
to do or how to do it, andthere might be some wiggle room
in how they accomplish something, but we're not asking them
whether or not they want to doit.
There's an expectation or alimit that we're maintaining in
that moment, but we're true toby drawing forth versus stuffing
in.
And it's interesting there'ssome research that shows that
(44:49):
when people get directives,they're actually whole body
changing tense up.
They start to get intodefensive posture.
When we're asked questions, wetend to open up and start to go
inside and start to think, andso that would be an example of
being kind and firm at the sametime.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yes, okay, again, making notes for myself too,
because I do not have it allfigured out over here, I am just
the host of the show.
But directives versus askingmotivational curiosity questions
and that's my takeaway so farthat is what I'm holding on to.
That's going to be my call toaction for myself is, instead of
(45:32):
giving a firm directive ortelling my child what they
already know to do, ask a how orwhat kind of question.
Yes, I love that, and you'reright, the feeling in the body
is so different.
You're bouncing it back to themfor like exploration and kind
of, like you know, giving themthe benefit of the doubt.
(45:55):
You know how this goes, and soget to searching around your
mind and be able to tell me theprocess and then engage in the
process and do what it is youneed to do.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
And you know, another principle just to keep in mind
is that these, these tools thatare for follow through and for
setting, maintaining limits,they're they're much more
effective if we have a sense ofconnection before correction,
right, and that can happen inthe big term.
Matter of fact, it just it justoccurred as something I was
thinking about this morning,before you and I met, and that
(46:32):
is that I came downstairs earlythis morning because I had an
early morning meeting to myoffice to do some work and
answer some emails and I hadn'teven gotten a chance to say good
morning to my son, peter.
And when I went upstairs Ilooked out back and, um, there's
a those little test stripsfloating in the pool, um, and
(46:53):
it's my son's job to um to takecare of the pool, he's 14.
And so, you know, I just saidsomething like I noticed that
those test strips are floatingin the pool, um, and he said, oh
, I'll go grapple Right, so itwas a real quick, but it it felt
empty to me.
Um, it was, I was using apositive discipline tool, which
is I was just making an I noticestatement which said to him I
(47:19):
know that you know right and youknow, thank you?
Yes, but I didn't even have achance to say good morning to
him.
And so even when I used one ofthese tools without that sense
of connection, I felt actually alittle bit of disconnect
between he and I, and so a realfundamental principle that we
(47:40):
try to encourage is that idea ofconnection before correction,
and it can take place in a bigpicture, like you know.
Maybe next time I say you knowwhat?
What's the big deal?
The thing floating in the pool,it's not, it's sealed up.
I just don't like where it is.
Um, and let me say good morning, and I'll come back to that
later, uh, or it could just besomething in the moment where I
(48:03):
just say hey.
I love you very much.
Good morning, good to see you.
And hey, I noticed that the uh,you know, uh the things out in
the pool.
Great, just take care of thatfor me, thanks.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
So good.
Yes, connection beforecorrection.
Again, another great takeaway,and I can relate to that.
I tell the story about how Iused to be just so rushed all
the time, doing everything foreveryone, even beyond the years
where they could have taken onthese responsibilities for
themselves.
And I would come in the doorfrom work and I would just start
(48:34):
barking out orders.
You know I'm tripping overshoes and backpacks and I'm
going pick up your shoes.
Has anyone started theirhomework?
And like, that's fun.
First I'm yelling directivesand I haven't even connected
with them yet.
Right, I haven't even made asimple greeting like oh hey,
guys, it's good to be home, it'sgood to be home from the office
(48:54):
with you.
And can we get?
to picking up these shoes.
You think you know where do theshoes go.
I ask in the motivationalcuriosity questions after I've
connected.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Right, well, and we all do that.
I mean, it's life is crazy, youknow, especially start having a
few kids.
It's there's, there's neverenough time.
And you know, I have a 22 yearold and I it goes by fast, yes,
it goes by fast.
And you know, in 10 years I'mnot going to care about what
happened to the shoes, but I amgoing to care about that, you
(49:28):
know.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
You know, if I missed opportunities for connection,
out that you know if I missedopportunities for connection,
yes, and that's where thatrespect and warmth comes in, and
making sure that, yeah, you arerepairing any ruptures that
you're making when you do have amisstep in your discipline or
your parenting right.
I talk about that so much.
It's so important to repair andto say that we're sorry and ask
(49:50):
for forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean it's, and that youknow when we, when we admit our
own mistakes.
It really frees up theenvironment for you know, to you
know, we're one of theprinciples we talked about,
which is that mistakes are anopportunity to learn for us too.
We're going to make mistakeswhen we do you know, when we
take responsibility withoutblame or excuses.
(50:12):
It's amazing.
Kids not only do they does itfree up the environment, free up
them to be able to makemistakes without the word of
blame or shame or humiliation,but they begin to model that.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
You know I'll just tell you a quick story.
I know we're running out oftime, but there's one of the
things, there's directives.
That was one of the things thatI just naturally and still is
something I have to be verymindful of.
One of the things that I thinkI've done well as a parent is
been able to admit when I made amistake.
I will tell you, it is mucheasier to admit when I make a
(50:51):
mistake If I have a replacementbehavior that I know that I can
do.
If I don't, it's a lot harderbecause I don't know that I'm
not going to make that mistakeagain.
So that's where I think havingsome tools to use so that we
have context for our mistakesand we can actually learn from
them is really important.
It actually takes a lot of heatoff of us because now I say,
(51:12):
okay, there is something I cando differently next time.
That frees me up to be able tosay you know, hey, listen,
jordan, I.
I snapped at you when I came inthis morning and you didn't
deserve that.
You know I would be reallyupset if you treated me that way
, and it was.
You know you must've feltreally hurt.
Would you please forgive me.
And now I also know that youknow, next time I'm going to do
(51:33):
something a little bitdifferently, right?
Yes, and we've repaired and I'vealso modeled and I've watched
that with my kids you know myson, peter and Teresa, who are
the ones I have five children,and Peter and Teresa are the
ones who have the most siblingrivalry between them.
One morning a few years ago wewere on our way to school and
Peter was just at least from myperspective.
(51:54):
I didn't hear the whole thing,but it sounded like Peter was
just giving Teresa a really hardtime.
And I know I've been doing theparenting thing now long enough
to know that I should stay outof those arguments because I'll
just make it worse, right, andso I was practicing, trying to
practice what I preach stayingout of the argument.
Then there was some silenceafter the back and forth and a
few minutes later I hear Petersay you know, teresa, I wasn't
(52:18):
being fair to you, I was being ajerk, would you please forgive
me.
And of course, teresa, beingTeresa, said I'll think about it
.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Delayed forgiveness.
I'm going to make it hurt for aminute for you, brother.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
But those are almost the exact words, in the exact
way that I would have saidsomething.
I wouldn't have said, jerk, butyou know it was.
You know, with the same waythat I would have said that, and
it was really a moment like,wow, they, they watch and they
listen, um, and so we don't haveto be perfect.
Um, but to your point, when werepair, there's a lot of healing
that takes place and a lot ofconnection that opens up the
(52:58):
opportunity for future success.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
Yes and again.
Apologizing and asking forforgiveness does not remove your
authority as the parent.
It actually elevates you intheir mind, right?
You rise on the respect meterto them.
It's like, wow, mom and dadmake mistakes and they're
willing to acknowledge them andask me for forgiveness Like
(53:21):
that's really cool for a kid,you know.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
It's a big deal and it's not, you know it's.
It's a hard skill to learn as aparent, because you know when
I'm, sometimes I'll be in a roomwith a hundred people and I'll
ask how many of you, um, haveever remember an adult making
amends with you?
And there's usually about three, four hands that go up right,
yes, and so a lot of the adultshaven't had it modeled for them
(53:46):
themselves, and so we, we walk,walk through the world of
parenting, thinking that we haveto be perfect or be perceived
as perfect.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
Yeah, no, just just allowing yourself, like you said
, to make a mistake andunderstand that that's a growing
opportunity for you too andyou're worthy of forgiveness.
That's huge Just accepting thatas an adult, that I'm worthy of
forgiveness and repair, even ifI didn't get it from my own
(54:17):
parents.
And how can I make sure thatI'm modeling that and genuinely
kind of implementing that in myown parenting with my kids?
Speaker 2 (54:28):
Great point.
I'm glad you brought that upkids.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
Great point, I'm glad you brought that up.
Good stuff, chip.
Thank you for bringing thegoodness when it comes to
positive discipline and a newway.
Again, I think one of thebiggest takeaways is make sure
you have in your back pocketwhat you're going to do instead
of that one thing that comes toyour mind that you just hate
when you do it with your kidsyelling, screaming, cussing, you
(54:57):
know, barking out orders orgiving them directives when you
haven't greeted them orconnected with them yet.
Think about in your mind,parents, what it is that you
want to kind of eradicate fromthe discipline that you've been
doing and the way you've beeninteracting with your kids, and
think of one of these thingsthat Chip has shared with us
(55:18):
today and really challengeyourself to consider changing
the way you do things, askingmotivational, curiosity
questions instead of just givingdirections, making sure that
you're connecting before you'recorrecting, and then just
thinking about the dignity andrespect that your kids deserve,
(55:41):
as they are growing anddeveloping as children and are
meant to make these mistakes inorder to learn social and
emotional cues and how to relateto the world in a positive way.
So, chip, let's talk about howpeople can find you.
Are you on the social mediaplatforms?
Which social media platformscan they find Chip DeLorenzo?
Speaker 2 (56:05):
So they could find me on Instagram at Chip underscore
DeLorenzo and my website chipDeLorenzocom, and we're Facebook
LinkedIn, all the usual.
So usually come right up.
So, yeah, be happy to seeanybody and then you can.
You know, I'd really recommendJane's original book for parents
(56:26):
.
That's not something you know,that's, that's a book.
You know, that was the originalbook she wrote and it's still
my favorite.
It's a classic.
It's just Positive Disciplineby Jane Nelson and it's a
wonderful resource.
And if you read that with, youknow, your children's other
parent, it's, you know, beingable to operate at least
(56:46):
somewhat off of the same.
You know, reading off the samesheet of music, yes, is, you
know, incredibly, off the samesheet of music?
Speaker 1 (56:55):
um, uh is, uh, you know incredibly helpful, as we
all know.
Absolutely being a team on thesame page as as parents, is one
of the most important things wecan do, I think.
So.
That is called positivediscipline.
You can find that atpositivedisciplinecom or I'm
sure you can find it on Amazonor all the fun places, Awesome.
(57:16):
And then you two did a booktogether that is called Positive
Discipline in the MontessoriClassroom as well, which is
great.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
If you're a Montessori educator, that's a
great book.
If you're a parent, you mightwant to just check out Jane's
book.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
But yeah.
So she and I did a booktogether and it came out in 2021
.
Congratulations.
What a time to publish a booktoo, and I'm sure people needed
it at that time.
With COVID going on andeverybody flooding into the
Montessori schools from publicschools, it's like, ah, help us.
Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah, it was a swirl.
It was a swirl, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
It's like, ah, help us, yeah, it was a swirl.
It was a swirl, that's for sure, yes, awesome.
Well, guys, if you want anymore kind of education or
understanding around the idea ofpositive discipline or just the
Montessori philosophy and someof the ways that Montessori can
influence your parenting at home, we have three other podcast
episodes.
So number 50 of our show iscalled the Four Planes of
(58:15):
Development.
Episode 58 is called SimpleFour-Step Lessons that Will
Decrease Frustration with yourKids.
You can guarantee there's lotsof positive discipline in that
one.
And then episode 104 calledTeaching Children to Share, and
all three of those episodes wehave a guest, pauline Miert,
(58:36):
from the Sophia MontessoriAcademy, who was sharing with us
on those episodes.
They've been very, very popular.
So, speaking of Pauline Miertand Sophia Montessori Academy
here in Denver, colorado, chipis going to be coming to
Colorado.
If you're listening to thisbefore Sunday, august 4th, you
can go to sophiamontessoricomand sign up and come listen to
(59:04):
Chip's talk for parents.
I will be there.
I've already got my ticket.
So, chip, we hope to see you inDenver in August.
And thanks again for your guestappearance here on the Families
of Character show.
Speaker 2 (59:17):
Thanks for having me.
It was a lot of fun and it wasan honor.
Appreciate it, Jordi.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Awesome Guys, share this episode with others.
Take a minute to just give us arating and review so that our
podcast can reach more and moreparents across the globe.
Thanks so much, and I'll catchyou on another episode of our
show real soon, take care.
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