Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Attention all you fishes in the sea.
I'm your host, Sam Fish.
Come dive into the Fishbowl'slatest podcast interview with
character actor Robert Lozardo,most famous for Above the Law,
Out for Justice, Drop Zone,Waterworld, Death Race, and the
Mule, among many other films andTV series.
(00:22):
Come swim on in.
Robert Lozardo on the Fishbowl.
Welcome.
SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
Thanks for having me, Sam.
SPEAKER_03 (00:29):
Absolutely.
Thank you for uh taking the timeto swim in the bowl with me.
I uh I hope I hope thetemperature is just right.
SPEAKER_02 (00:39):
Me too.
SPEAKER_03 (00:42):
Awesome, awesome.
Well, I just have to say, like,I have been following your
career since I was like a littlekid.
I was born in '88, so I grew upwatching like all the action
movies and everything, you know,you appeared in.
And I I've I've been just alongtime fan of those types of
(01:03):
films.
I'm also a huge horror fan.
And there's quite a bit of that,you know, you've done as well.
And I have a huge long list ofquestions that it's okay if we
don't get it today, becausehonestly, I could probably do
like three or four one-hourinterviews covering like your
(01:26):
your entire span.
But the first question I havefor you is what got you
interested in film?
SPEAKER_02 (01:34):
You know, I Sam, honestly, at first I wasn't
interested in it.
I didn't understand themechanism, other than, you know,
like any other uh person thatenjoyed, you know, watching
movies and television shows whenthey, you know, as a kid that
influenced my life.
So it wasn't uh preordained,unless you know somebody else
(01:56):
had you know a plan for me,which sometimes I wonder about
that, you know, greater thanmyself, because it left to my
own devices.
Sometimes I go down the wrongroad.
So I'm sure you some of us canrelate to that.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
But to answer your question, I went into the
military right out of highschool.
I I went to the high school,ironically, for the for
performing arts, which was aspecialized school that you know
was ideally a a precursor uh interms of training and vocation
of for theater or film andtelevision.
I just couldn't connect thedots.
(02:28):
I thought it was fun to perform.
I made a very close friend, ateacher there named Anthony
Apson, who was instrumental inhelping me understand the impact
as an artist that I and otherscan make if we commit to it.
And uh I remembered that, but Iwasn't ready to embrace it as a
(02:48):
as a as a as a duty, as a faith,as a book, you know, as a as a
as a career.
It didn't seem even possible.
It seemed it was about as faraway as the earth is from Pluto,
this idea of Hollywood andmovies.
I'm like, no, you know, no way,you know.
So I was more at that stage oflife, just it was more like a
lot of young men who areconfused and growing up in a
(03:08):
certain way, need to arestruggling with identity.
And I think that I realized whatI realized was at that stage of
life that I needed to employdiscipline or I was gonna ruin
my life.
So I I enlisted in the in themilitary for four years and got
got my shit squared away, asthey say.
And once I got out of themilitary, I reconnected.
(03:30):
Or during my my stint in themilitary, I kept in contact with
Anthony.
And he insisted on reminding menot of that I should not lose
sight of the creative uh side ofmy being.
And though there was thistendency to want to live a
normal, whatever that is,conventional structured life,
because so much of my earlierlife was not structured and
(03:53):
unstable.
I think there was this inneryearning for uh a family or
identification with somethingthat seemed permanent, you know,
or stable.
And I traveled the world lookingfor it.
So I, you know, became fullcircle.
And next thing I know, I'mstudying with my acting teacher,
but privately, you know, arefresh like this refresher
(04:13):
course to get reacquainted withthe craft of acting and theater,
and started auditioning forvarious television shows,
movies.
And uh at first I was notthrilled at the process.
It was horrifying to audition.
And I at that time I was alreadycovered in tattoos.
I had already, I don't know,maybe more than 50% of my upper
(04:35):
torso was covered in in ink, youknow, and it wasn't popular or
trendy back in those days.
So the comment was always,Robert's very talented, we want
to hire him, but we have aproblem with the tattoos.
It doesn't work in the worldthat we're making or we're
building.
So there was a lot ofdisappointment early on with the
auditions and a lot of, Iwouldn't say rejection, just a
(04:57):
lot of disappointment from thepoint of view of the of the
playwrights that you know that Iauditioned for for off-Broadway,
I auditioned for movies, Iauditioned for television.
And it was always like, yeah,his talent is very visible,
probably more visible than a lotof people that we see.
The irony is what's also visibleis the ink, and it's uh creating
a barrier, and we can't seem toget past it.
(05:19):
Sorry.
And so I lost a lot ofopportunities or was not allowed
opportunity to participatebecause of my physical
appearance.
And I don't fault the peoplethat made those decisions based
on a visual medium that requiresyou look a certain way.
I totally get it, you know.
So I lost heart for a while thefirst year out of the Navy, and
Anthony Apeson insisted that Ikeep my shirt on, you know, you
(05:42):
know, metaphorically andliterally, right?
Right.
They would eventually writeroles for me.
He had this crystal ball likeMerlin and saw a future for me
that there would come a timewhere it would not be as a big
of an issue as you think, andyour talent would overtranscend
this idea of pariah, this ideaof taboo, something you should
not do as a thespian, and thatthey would uh find a place for
(06:05):
me in the movie industry and Iwould make a living at it.
And a few months later, I wenton audition for a Warner
Brothers film and uh wentthrough a series of callbacks
and was hired to be in a filmwith Richard Pryor called Moving
under contract, was flown out toLos Angeles, and the reality
suddenly hit me that Anthonywasn't just blowing smoke.
(06:26):
And then I I had had a aproclivity, uh, uh an
instinctive feeling that wasvery positive when I performed
on stage.
So if you asked me what got meinto it is how I felt when I was
on stage performing, the rest ofthe world seemed to disappear.
And whatever um fiction orwhatever literature I immersed
(06:46):
myself in, it possessed me.
And uh, I love living in theseseemingly fictional worlds that
would become the more dominantreality as you dived into
character, dived intocircumstance, and all of what
was you know, basically what'srequired of the artist to
authenticate the playwright's uhliterature and and world so that
(07:06):
the audience can have a realexperience.
And there was something aboutthat process and that catharsis,
that kind of Ouija board magic,and you know, literally stepping
in psychically into other worldsand letting it overtake what you
perceive yourself to be in youreveryday life was to me like a
form of magic.
And it truly liberated metemporarily, it seemed to lift
(07:29):
me off the ground.
And I felt that anything waspossible within the frame of
that uh realm of performing, youknow.
That was what really put thehook in me.
It wasn't so much like, oh man,you know, I was staring in the
mirror all the time and I wantto be that guy.
I didn't really have anaffection for the vanity fair as
much as I felt somethingspiritually assisting me when I
(07:52):
would do the work.
There was something about itthat was healing.
SPEAKER_03 (07:55):
That's that's awesome.
That's that's very, very cool.
And you know, I mean, the theindustry has totally changed.
I mean, look at people likeDanny Trejo, you know, who are
covered in tattoos and now he'smachete, you know, and people
know who he is.
And you know, I mean it's it'sgreat that the industry has
(08:17):
allowed change to happen, but atthe same time, you know, it's
it's some some of the mostmemorable characters that you
know I remember you playing werebecause of you know you having
tattoos and stuff like that thatallowed you to get you know
roles like that.
And when I when I actually toldmy dad that I was gonna be
(08:41):
interviewing you yesterday fortoday, I showed him your picture
on IMDB and he was like, Holyshit, you're interviewing that
guy, you know, because you know,my my dad is pretty much the guy
who got me into like you knowall the movies and and music and
stuff I'm into.
He's the reason I I I went toschool here in Pittsburgh to
(09:04):
pursue screenwriting, and that'swhere I started my podcast.
And it's very cool to be able totalk to you and talk about you
know your career and a lot ofyour films and stuff, because
I'm definitely a big, big fan.
SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
Thank you, Sam.
If if you don't mind me asking,what's your what's your father's
name?
SPEAKER_03 (09:22):
Oh Jonathan.
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
Jonathan, tell Jonathan, hey Jonathan, I
appreciate that.
Uh I'm not gonna assume you havean affection for me, but I
appreciate that.
Maybe at one point in time youmight have watched something
I've been in and uh enjoyed it,and that you passed on uh that
uh fascination to your son andallowed him to become a uh
(09:44):
sounds like you're a filmhistorian, Sam.
You very you get really into it.
You like me, you do the you dothe research, it's not just a
trend topic for you, right?
You really enjoy cinema, yes,right?
Thank you, Jonathan, for raisinghim that way.
SPEAKER_03 (09:59):
I I'm gonna I'm gonna call my dad as as soon as
as soon as we're done with theinterview.
I'm gonna tell him guess whatRob Lazardo said when you said
you gotta listen to thisinterview when it when it's
posted.
But uh yes, you know, I'm such afan of film, and I'm such a fan
of especially certain genres offilm, and it's actually because
(10:24):
of my dad letting me see uhtotal recall when I was five
years old.
Uh just cover my eyes on thethree-tated lady, but everything
else was fine, and you know, youknow, it left an imprint on me,
and I've I've been you know ahuge Arnold fan ever since then.
(10:45):
I've been a fan of just everysingle action movie, you know,
and it just it just sucksbecause they don't make you know
action movies like like they didin like the 80s and 90s, you
know, like like they do today.
SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
Agreed.
Yeah, it's changed a bit.
SPEAKER_03 (11:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Now we have like Fast and theFurious and you know superhero
movies, and not that I'm dissingFast and the Furious, you know.
I I I I'm invested in thatfranchise, I grew up with it,
you know, but I wanna I wannasee stuff like you know, like
like you were in, like, youknow, but that means it's a
great segue to talk about prettymuch the first movie that I I
(11:28):
really noticed you and when thatwas hard to kill.
Yeah, Steven Stigal.
Yeah, yeah, and I know you alsowork with him on Alpha Justice.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Yes.
I got a quick little littleanecdote or story for you, if
you don't mind.
Yeah, yeah.
I met Steven at an audition.
Like many, I had gone on when Iwas in Los Angeles at the time,
and um after my audition, he wasvery candid with me and said,
you know, I think you're aconsummate actor.
And he went on to say some otherreally favorable things.
And usually, you know, there'sthis almost like iron curtain,
(12:01):
you know, uh with producers anddirectors and stars when you go
in to read, and you almostwonder whether you fumbled the
ball or you, you know, youscored a touchdown.
You never really know how toread these individuals, you
know, based on you know theirbody language, their criteria
after the fact, you know.
Sometimes they can be verydismissive, sometimes they'll
engage you, but none of itreally adds up to anything until
(12:23):
you get the call that you've gotthe job, right?
So you you it's very important,I think, not to be presumptuous
about what happens there, youknow, positive or negative.
It's a lot of fairy dust, youknow, that could you know blown
into your face.
But the point is this that oncehe said that, I felt it was
unusual, other than what myexperience had been with Richard
Pryor, who's also very candidwith me and very personable, and
(12:45):
was instrumental in helpinghelping me uh establish
confidence that I did have theright to be where I was with him
in this movie, despite a lot ofnegative uh uh input from people
who did not understand the way Iwas manifesting with the
tattoos.
Like, good luck with that, youknow.
But the point is when you havepeople like this who are living
legends or movie starscomplimenting outside the circle
(13:09):
of negativity and introduce anew way of looking at things, it
kind of feels like a rebirth.
And that's what it was like forme with Stephen Sagal.
And soon after that audition, Iwas hired to be in that film
Hard to Kill with Kelly LeBron,who's his co-star.
And I had also the opportunityto speak with him on SETCU
because he's very friendly withme.
And he mentioned, hey, I gotthis film project, screenplay
(13:30):
and development, and I want youto be in it.
He went on to explain a littlebit about it, and it turned out
to be Offer Justice.
And a year later, I got a callfrom management saying that he
wanted to meet with me andwanted me to meet his director.
And after a brief uhconversation with the director
and Steven, I got the call abouta week or two later that I was
(13:50):
hired again on a Warner Brothersproject and under contract for a
couple of months.
So, how often, at least myexperience is that a lot of
people say things in Hollywood,but very, you know, it's very,
it's very rare that they meanwhat they say.
And even if they mean what theysay, it it doesn't always bear
fruit.
You know, so you learn early onnot to take the compliments or
the you know the insults tooserious.
(14:12):
You just kind of flow like itlike the Taoists.
You just kind of go where theriver goes and with good
intention or with with the withyour your motivation and hope
that you can make impact andsomeone will recognize that and
hire you.
My point about Stephen, though,is that he kept his word.
I could easily thought, oh,that's nice, man.
Oh, you have a project indevelopment, great, wow, cool,
(14:33):
and been you know, notnecessarily moved by the uh the
seeming the seeming offer youknow to participate in another
movie because it sounded soauthentic.
I got this character I want youto play in my my next movie, and
it seemed like I was having aconversation, not with the
celebrity or the icon, but justa man who respected me and his
(14:56):
wife as well, at the time, Kellythe Brock, were very friendly,
and they were looking at mytattoos and they had no problem
with them.
We were just talking about them.
So it was like a non-issue,which is very rare for me to be
in a situation across from thismovie star when I had come from
a world where everywhere I went,I felt like people were throwing
rocks at me because of it andthe social dynamics of my life,
(15:18):
you know, personal, you know,work jobs I did, I'd have to go
in the back where the peoplewouldn't see me because the boss
didn't want people to see that Ihad tattoos because maybe they
wouldn't eat at the place.
It just there was so much ofthis um grime associated with
the imagery that's not presentin this day and age that when I
met very powerful and celebratedcelebrities who were actually
(15:41):
quite the opposite in the waythey perceived me, it was
mind-blowing, man.
It was truly mind-blowing.
So there was no judgment, therewas just love and appreciation
for my ability.
And hey, I want to give you ajob.
Okay, wow.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
That that's awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
And I also just want to ask you Stephen for that.
SPEAKER_03 (15:58):
Yeah, that's that's awesome.
I I also just want to say thatHard to Kill is my number one
favorite, Steven Segal.
SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Right on.
That's a good one.
It's a good one, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:10):
You know, a lot of great stars in that.
Well, one of my one of my alsolong time favorite stars,
William Sadler.
I'm a big big fan of his, youknow, he's he's always he's
another great character actorthat that's just been a lot of a
lot of stuff.
But another really awesomeaction film that I'm a big fan
(16:34):
of, and they've just actuallybeen playing it on the movie
channels.
I've been watching it everysingle time it's on Drop Zone.
SPEAKER_02 (16:41):
Oh, wow, wow.
That was a just a movie, man.
That was an experience for me.
I got to go to Florida, it wasyou know, back in the 90s, you
know.
Right.
Different world back then.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I know, I know.
We filmed in the Florida Keys,Key West, we filmed in Miami, we
(17:02):
filmed in Key Largo, I think.
We, you know, we moved a bit.
There was all quite a fewcompany moves within that
geography, uh, and every one ofthem was you know prettier than
the next.
You know, it's just an amazingtime.
And I Wesley Snipes, I've knownfor years, uh, worked with him
on a film.
Uh I don't know if you rememberthis film with Christopher
Walken and David Crusoe calledKing of New York.
SPEAKER_03 (17:24):
That's actually on the list.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:28):
And I known Wesley, and when Wesley saw that I had
arrived at this party that's youknow, to celebrate the movie,
you know, it wasn't a rap party,it was prior to filming, you
know, just kind of a welcome totype thing uh and event.
And Wesley came right up to me,he said, Hey, hey, hey, Bob, and
he gave me a hug.
You know, it was really nice.
I felt at home.
You know, it wasn't any ofthese, uh, you know, sometimes I
(17:50):
guess I've heard stories, youknow, some movie stars, they put
on airs and you can't talk tothem.
And it was like just coming hometo family, you know, it was
really nice.
SPEAKER_03 (17:59):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
And and John Badham, you know, who directed Saturday
never, you know, who directedDrop Zone, he was a very nice
man, and uh is a very nice manand was, you know, and there's
this whole slew of people that Iworked with that were very
pleasant and friendly, so it wasa really nice experience.
SPEAKER_03 (18:16):
That's awesome.
I I know you've also you'veworked with Gary Beusey a couple
of times.
SPEAKER_02 (18:21):
Yeah, Gary, sure.
And uh I called Gary up onceafter the movie just to say hi
and see how he was doing, and hestarted talking, then he said,
Hang on a second, and he grabbedhis guitar and started singing
to me while we're on the phone.
It's like, wow, I'm getting thesong out of this too, not just
the conversation and small soft.
He's he's performing for me.
It's great.
SPEAKER_03 (18:43):
I I had the chance to meet Gary once.
He came to uh PittsburghComic-Con a few years ago, and
it was honestly one of thecoolest experiences because you
know everybody you know hasthese stories about Gary now and
everything.
And when I met him, it was likean amazing experience.
(19:09):
He was such a nice guy.
I I when I go to theseconventions, I like to hand out
my business card along with likea an official like fishbowl pen.
And when he took the pen, it waslike he was just fascinated with
it, and you know, said that hehe would uh possibly do my show.
(19:32):
You know, I I I I probablyshould follow up with him
because it's been a while, buthe was he's um I'm a huge, huge
Gary Busey fan.
SPEAKER_02 (19:41):
Yeah, good too.
He's a great actor.
Yeah, you see the Buddy Hollystory, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:47):
Yeah, and I I I love his son also, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
Yeah, brilliance.
SPEAKER_03 (19:52):
Yeah.
I mean, we could also talk aboutuh the real thing that you work
with him on.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
Patrick Gallagher, uh Patrick Gallagher, I believe,
produced that as a friend ofmine from the past, a good
really nice guy.
He produced that film.
And Ashley Lawrence, a friend ofmine, was one of the leads in
that.
Hesai Morales in that was inthat film.
Ironically, he went to the samehigh school together.
He went to the high school ofperforming arts and studied with
Anthony Apeson as well.
And you know, we had this youknow kind of friendship, this
(20:21):
vicarious friendship over theyears, hesi Morales and I.
And then I got to meet RodSteiger, the Illustrated Man,
ironically.
I don't remember him playingthat role in the book, Rick
Barry, Ray Bradbury's book, TheIllustrated Man, but uh it was
bizarre, you know, to see him,you know, old Hollywood, you
know, golden age of Hollywoodright there on the set, and it's
(20:43):
an event.
Right, right.
And uh yeah, so yeah, the realthing.
Yeah, I remember that shootingthat film.
I think they was the director'sname, James Marandino, I think
it's his name, James Marandinodirected that forgive me if I'm
getting the names wrong.
I think that was the name of thedirector.
SPEAKER_03 (20:59):
No worries.
I I'm honestly not a hundredpercent sure on that.
So you and you've also workedwith James Russo a couple of
times.
I'm a big fan of his as well.
SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
Yeah, yeah.
We I think I I did my one of myone of my early, my first
independent film directed byAbel Ferrara called China Girl.
SPEAKER_03 (21:19):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Starring David Caruso and and James Russo,
yeah.
Right.
Who you know, fast forward intothe future that I'd be working
with uh J J James Russo andDavid Caruso on you know NYPD
Blue and then CSI Miami.
I'm gonna jump, I'm gonna I'mgonna jump ahead.
I tend to do this, so I'll jumparound.
SPEAKER_03 (21:39):
No, you're you're fine, you're fine.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
So let's fast forward into like you know 2000,
whatever it was.
I think it was 200 maybe 11,that I was doing I they brought
this character back, a characterback that I was portraying
called Memo Fiero on a part ofthis cartel named the Mala
Noche.
And I don't know what season itwas of CSI Miami, but anyway,
long story.
Sure, is that David and I weretalking, and to the producer's
(22:03):
amazement, because I didn'trealize this, but David was
apparently, I guess, I wouldn'tsay he was feared, but he was a
very private man, and it seemedto be, uh, from what I was
noticing, and that he wasextremely calculative and very
meticulous about how he wantedto go about the episodes.
(22:23):
You know, almost got the sensethat he was co-directing at
times and would discuss with thewriter sometimes in a heated
fashion about certain scenesthat he wanted to adjust.
So I got the sense that hispresence just wasn't the star,
but like that he had creativeinfluence.
And when him and I just startedjust small talking about the
past, and we used to talk a lotabout this movie Apocalypse Now,
(22:47):
directed by Francis Borcloppola.
That's a classic, right?
He was fascinated with thisfilm, and so was I.
So we'd have like theseexistential philosophical
conversations about the film,and he would tell me things that
he thought, and I would sharethat.
And the producers was like, takeme aside after we'd finish the
day, and they'd say, Wow, likehow do you know David?
I go, Well, David and I go wayback.
(23:08):
I did my first independent filmwith him, you know, uh you know,
uh called China Girl, and thenwe worked on NYPD Blue together,
and you know, we've run intoeach other on the street, we run
into you know King of New York,you know.
So I've known David, and andDavid has an affection for me,
and uh, we we think alike.
And they were like, wow, becausehe doesn't talk to anybody.
(23:28):
I said, wait a minute.
Yeah, I said, What?
How did you get him to?
I said, I'm like, why are youasking me this, man?
You guys are the producers.
You're telling me that you can'tcommunicate with your own star.
I don't know if it was fear oror maybe he just didn't feel
like you know, he uh like Isaid, his method was maybe very
uh specific and uh and monastic,and he just maybe wanted to be
(23:49):
left alone.
But I guess it was not an ausual occurrence to see David
Caruso, the star of CSI Miami,you know, small talking with a
guest star on the show, youknow, like what's your deal,
Robert?
What you know, how do you knowthis guy that he's opening up to
you in a way that he would neveropen up to people who he's been
working with for years, youknow?
And I I I I counted that as avictory for myself.
(24:12):
I thought, wow, that must bespecial or something.
But simply it was just that himand I connected, man.
You know, right?
He liked me and I liked him, andit was no, there was no cra
there was no bolt, you know, itwas just straight talk, man,
about things we both were couldrelate to, independent of the
work that we were doing, youknow.
And it's nice when that happensbecause it doesn't happen a lot.
So yeah, James Russo, and then Iwent on to work with dude, I did
(24:36):
a couple of films with JamesRusso.
China Girl, I did the realthing, I did this other thing, I
think it was called Blood Money.
I it might have changed thetitle.
And I recently was in a filmthat starring a gentleman named
Ciro DiPaggio, the mob king,where James Russo is in that,
and I have a cameo in that film.
So yeah, James and I keeprunning into each other
(24:58):
indirectly.
You know, it's wild.
He's been around, like you know,he's he's he's like me.
He's done many combat tours inthe industry of shows.
I he once said to me, because wesometimes we would hang out in
the early days in the 90s, andhe was really a skillful
baseball player.
And one of the things he noticedabout me while he was hitting
(25:19):
these monstrous home run ballsthat I pitched to him was my
endurance to run after the balland catch.
And he said, Man, you've gotendurance.
And so I took that as acompliment in terms of that what
he meant was that as long as youhave the endurance to deal with
what's gonna go, you know, whatbasically is in front of you in
terms of career, you know,you're gonna do fine.
(25:42):
And so I I I understood what hewas saying, uh, kind of
metaphorically as well, becausehe had made comments to me along
those lines, and I appreciate itbecause a lot of times these
some of these guys are not nice,you know.
So you it's always surprising tome when someone offers uh a
compliment that you know, asidefrom you know their own, you
know, ego trip.
(26:03):
So that was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03 (26:05):
That's awesome, that's very cool.
Yeah, he he he seems like a likea really nice guy.
Uh he's he's another guy I'vebeen trying to get on my show.
Um, I could you know talk forhours about stuff he's he's been
in.
SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
Yeah, he's worked with like you know, he's worked
with a lot of people.
I'm sure he has a lot of storiesto tell.
You know, the question is howmany does he want to tell?
You know, um, but you know,because it's not always not all
roses, right?
Is it?
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
Uh people don't want to hear that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
Some people want to hear hear the dirt, and some
people want to talk to glory.
You know, I like to do a littlebit of both myself.
But yeah, James has worked witha lot of people.
He told me things, sharedinformation with me about
certain stars that he workedwith, and you know, and it was
mind-boggling.
Some of the stories that heshared with me and some of his
experiences and how close he gotto that circle of power and you
(26:55):
know what he witnessed.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
I'll just leave it there.
Interesting, very interesting.
Yeah.
Another film that I I I am I'm abig big fan of, and you know, I
and and I really think JimCarrey quoted it the best in the
cable guy, uh, and that wasWaterworld.
(27:19):
I know Waterworld didn't itdidn't get like well received at
the time it came out, but butfor me, and and I think a lot of
other people that were like myage at the time, we loved it.
And despite what the critics maymay have said about it, it it's
(27:39):
a fun action, it's it's like MadMax with water, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't put a lot of stock in ina certain percentage of the
critics because I've watchedfilms that I've enjoyed
thoroughly and then referencedthe Rotten Tomatoes.
And I asked myself, did you didyou see the same movie that I oh
I I know, I know it doesn't makesense, and then they praise
something, they praise the gloryof something, and I'll watch it
and I don't connect with it.
(28:05):
It's like trying to tellsomebody what kind of music they
like.
Exactly.
It's a really slippery slope.
It's not a I don't know if thisthe science of cinema clearly is
there, but I think there's otheraspects and elements that make
films work that don'tnecessarily abide by the physics
of cinema science that have todo with the the the character
(28:27):
study or the soul power of thefilm or the writing or you know
the disposition of characterthat communicates an emotion or
an archetype that people canidentify with and touches them
in their heart.
I think the analytics ofcriticism with a lot of these
people who observe movies fromthat point of view is very
intellectual and it seems todivorce itself from the heart of
(28:49):
the matter.
And some movies are drivenpurely by the heart itself
rather than all the technicalflaws that people, you know, so
willingly want to find anddismiss the emotional content.
And I think emotional content,if it's communicated
authentically, can changepeople's lives.
I know it has for me.
(29:10):
When I watched movies, and Iafterwards I was like, the movie
stayed with me my whole life, orfor months afterwards, I was
still there because I was ittouched me, and I didn't have
time to look at the flawsbecause I was so enamored or
pulled into the experience ofcharacter relationships and the
story that I didn't care aboutthat stuff.
And I think most critics theytend to divorce not all of them,
(29:33):
but some it seems a pattern,they divorce themselves
emotionally and look at it likeit's some kind of physics
project, you know.
And I don't I think it'sdangerous when you reduce art to
mathematics, man.
I think there's a place for it,but you can't sometimes they go
a little overboard with that.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
I I completely agree, you know, because I mean,
especially like like I mean, youyou could tell things were kind
of shifting when that movie cameout because it you know, like in
the 80s and even before that,70s, you know, all cinema before
that, like like you could youcould make like a a concept and
(30:18):
have it kind of be totally outof the box, and and it could be
sci-fi, fantasy, action, or youknow, horror, whatever.
And now it's like you kind ofhave to have films that are
almost, I mean, at leastmainstream, that are more on, I
(30:38):
guess, like like a realisticbased platform, even if they
are, you know, in the realm ofsci-fi or fantasy, you know, or
something.
You can't you can't like make alike a movie that, you know,
because people criticize plotholes and stuff now way more
than I feel like they did backin our, you know, the like when
(31:02):
we were when I was growing up,you know, and back in the 80s
and 90s, people were more justentertained with going to see,
you know, a movie, you know, andand now people, it's you know,
you have you know, the theinternet has almost made it
impossible to kind of like getaway with out seeing you know
(31:25):
someone talking bad aboutsomething about something, you
know, when the movie could havebeen great or you know, or it
may not, you know, but like likeyou know, you said and before,
you know, it's all subjective.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
Yeah, and and that brings me to a more personal
point.
I mean, if I were to rely on theperceptions of some of the
people that uh I met throughoutmy earlier life and their
evaluation of me on a personallevel, creative level, whatever
the evaluation was, and theirchecklist, and believed in that
stuff, I might not be aliveright now.
(32:01):
And I'm not trying to bemelodramatic or anything, but I
think that it's dangerous whenyou allow other people's
opinions to influence the wayyou move through life, how you
experience it, and theperception of this idea of self,
you know.
And it's the same thing withfilm, you know, you make a film
or you collaborate with othersto make a film, and it's like
(32:22):
building a house, you know, andyou try to build it the best way
you know how, and so people canlive in it and it can hold the
weight of the responsibility ofwhat it needs to hold.
And you look at each otherideally and hold hands or shake
each other's hands, say, heyman, we've built this.
And whether the people that lookat it objectively and say, I
don't like that kind of house,who cares?
I mean, there's gonna be peoplewho like it, there's gonna be
(32:43):
people that that don't like it,there's gonna be people who
don't want to burn it down.
I think it speaks more to theobserver than the house itself.
And I and that's you know, mymeaning that the audience, what
you're saying about audiencestoday, I don't know what the
issue is.
I have some I some theories, butI won't go into it too much, but
I just feel like it's morereflective of the audience than
(33:03):
it is the cinema.
SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:06):
I still witness brilliance brilliance in films
that are mind-blowing.
And I read the reviews and I'mlike, wow.
And I've known a couple ofcritics, and what I noticed
about some of them was thattheir personal lives didn't seem
very fulfilled.
And I think when you lean tooheavy on the art form to fill in
the gaps of your life, and youcondemn it because it doesn't
(33:28):
necessarily bring you into astate of nirvana or you know,
blow your mind to the degree inwhich you want it to, because
you've gotten so used towatching film after film that
you it becomes redundant.
There's this, I think, maybeunconscious temptation to
confuse your own personal lifeor whatever dissatisfaction
(33:51):
you're experiencing, and placethat responsibility on the film,
on responsibility on the film.
And and that's not reasonable.
And I I a lot and I remembertalking to some people I knew
that were critics who would askme, What did you think about
that?
And I would explain how I feltabout the film experience, and
like, really, that's what yougot from that.
I go, I didn't even understandhalf of the movie.
So I would explain it to themthinking, how scary it is that
(34:13):
this person has the power tocritique this film and doesn't
even understand the material,but yet I completely got it.
I'm not saying I'm smarter thanthis individual, but you you
know, people give some peoplegive a lot of credibility to
these people, some of theseindividuals who've been anointed
to observe, evaluate, and judgewhether or not the film bears
(34:34):
the required, you know, therequired specifications of merit
based on a program.
But I I wonder sometimes if thepeople that are setting up that
checklist are reasonable in howthey observe and judge things.
I wonder about that, and becauseI've seen evidence personally
(34:54):
that they're not always lookingat things with uh both eyes
opened or they don't evenunderstand what they're
watching.
And so if they don't understandit and they can't decipher the
subtext or the deeper meaning,the esoteric meaning of the
film, rather than ask for helpto understand what they've
witnessed, they discount it asin oh, it's incoherent
(35:17):
filmmaking.
Doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense to you.
But just because you don'tnecessarily understand the lyric
of a Jimi Hendrix song or a riffthat's played by some really
far-out guitar player, doesn'tmean that it doesn't communicate
its own genius, you know.
So I think there's limitationsin in terms of the observer
looking at various genres ofcinema and their ability to
(35:41):
recognize in a balanced way bothwhat works in a film and what
doesn't, I still thinkultimately should come away with
that they were entertained by itsomehow.
Well, you know, was thereanything that you liked about
it?
Is what I always asked.
Clearly, there's evidence infilm history where the
filmmakers were negligent anddidn't care about the material
(36:03):
and it was an exploitationpiece, and clearly that would be
dealt with accordingly.
But when you have films that youcan tell there's a lot of work
went into them, and theperformances are really just
inspiring.
And some person comes along andjust glosses over it like an
inconsequential variable, likeit has no meaning, and focuses
(36:25):
on one point or a couple ofpoints in the film that did not
work based on their criteria,they ignore everything else.
Some of them do, some of themare well balanced in their
observation.
They say, Well, I like this,this, and the A, B, C, and D,
but this was confusing to me.
But you know what?
You watch it.
If you like this, this, andthis, you probably will enjoy
(36:45):
this.
I think you can evaluate filmsin a reasonable way.
I think the problem now is thatthere's so many opportunities,
like you said, with theinternet, to be a
self-proclaimed critic.
I wonder sometimes howlegitimate these people are in
their ability to observe thingsin a reasonable and correct, not
correct, a reasonable andmerciful way, man.
SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
Right.
You know, right.
SPEAKER_02 (37:09):
Are they using the station for their own
grandiosities, you know, to begrandiose so they can rip
something apart because it makesthem feel empowered, you know,
or are they actually pointingout something that a lot of
people agree, yeah, this was a asubstandard product because it's
not a not watchable movie, andall would agree, or a lot of
people would agree.
But like I said, I think theproblem is that really quality
(37:31):
films suffer under the thistyranny of extreme judgment,
man.
And I don't know, I don'tunderstand where that's come
from.
I I like I said, I have sometheories about work.
I think it has a lot to do withpeople in their personal lives
not feeling fulfilled, and theyproject that onto the movie, or
maybe they are frustrated intheir own lives because they may
(37:53):
have wanted to, they had somecreative dream that was never
fully realized, and they usetheir platform to blame, you
know, unconsciously orconsciously, filmmakers for
something that has nothing to dowith the film itself, but
because they were not able toeither participate, produce,
act, write, whatever, they'rekind of you know sh spewing a
(38:14):
lot of their own dispersonaldisappointments and using the
film.
It's like, you know, it's a kindof a form of abuse.
Like, well, this bio, thisbiological father abused his
son, so the son is now passingon the same abuse, you know,
without recognizing that it'syou know, you're being abusive
to you're abusing your stationand and you're abusing the art
(38:37):
form because you feel left out.
You feel that you were nottreated fairly.
And so now you're gonna takethat frustration and revenge out
on filmmakers and people thathave nothing to do with any of
that, you know, and I thinkthere's a lot of misdirection in
that in that sense, where peopleare projecting their
frustrations about their owncareers onto actors, writers,
(39:01):
directors, and producers becausethey're simply not being invited
into the project.
And so they damn it to hell, soto speak.
And I think there is apercentage of that.
No one, I I doubt very very fewpeople would admit that.
They may not even be consciousof it.
But it is a very competitivefield, and competition by its
very nature doesn't alwayscreate a kumbaya moment.
(39:22):
You know, it creates uh envy,and envy sometimes can get quite
ugly in the way it uses liter,you know, uh its cleverness uh
to seemingly, you know, thisobject to employ this objective
uh reasoning uh as it ripssomething apart, and it's not
being objective at all.
It's uh it's it's just using itsthe the intelligence in a way to
(39:47):
uh uh deconstruct and tearthings down and basically remove
the inspiration that uh thespirit of of of collaboration
that the people came togetherfor in the first place, you
know, uh because they fell inthe critic feels uninspired.
And they draw inspiration bytearing things down.
(40:09):
It's like this almost likepyromaniac kind of psyche, like,
well, I love to watch it burn,you know.
But to build requires so muchwork and efforts, and you have
to take risks when you build.
You got to really put yourselfout there.
And I think that portion getsforgotten when things are judged
and observed.
And it's I think sometimes itcan be a cowardly way to
(40:30):
evaluate things if you don'tevaluate them with balance.
I'm not saying you have to, youknow, approach every film like
it's um a masterpiece.
I'm just saying if you're sayingto me, Robert, I noticed that
things have changed over theyears, and the the judgments are
severe in terms of observationof cinema, and the critiques and
the and the critics are just youknow light, you know, basically
(40:53):
gaslighting every every fiveminutes, then what does that
say?
You know, is it are all thefilms really that bad?
Or are people's lives, you know,is it more of a reflection of
people's lives?
I mean, it's a rhetorical.
I don't know the answer.
Right.
But I cannot believe based onbeing a consumer, because I am a
film consumer, I watch a lot ofmovies, you know, and I'm not
(41:14):
gonna uh play party to this ideathat cinema is collapsing, that
we're in the dark ages, thatthere's no light, there's no
hope, it's all crap.
I don't believe that becauseit's just when I start to think
along those lines, I'll watch amovie and I go, wow, you know,
it may not be a mainstream film,maybe it's a moderate budget,
(41:35):
who knows what classificationit's it's measured and based on
banking, but I don't care aboutthat.
I'm I look at it and I go, wow,man, that was really good.
It really affected me.
Wow, you know, time well spent.
And I see, I I think to myself,why would people be so critical
to divorce themselves from anopportunity of escapism where
(41:58):
they can feel better about theirday-to-day life?
Because that's, I think a lot ofpeople utilize movies for that
way, because maybe their livesare not that much, not that
exciting, or maybe they'rehaving a problem with their
personal life, and they weescape into fantasy to try to
remedy this, this, this, thestink of of reality sometimes,
you know, and it helps us like ashot, a whiskey, or you know,
(42:21):
whatever.
And so, in that sense, why wouldyou condemn or damn the very
thing that is basically helpingyou escape from your day-to-day
life and and the humdrum this?
I don't understand that.
I don't get that part.
Never have.
SPEAKER_03 (42:37):
I'm honestly kind of baffled by it too, because I
mean, I I went to school for themovies, you know.
I'm I'm about the movies, mypassion is movies.
Yeah, same, same with music.
You know, I I I interview a lotof musicians as well.
I'm a big rock and roll guy.
Yeah, right on, you know,Hendrix is my number one from
(43:01):
classic rock era.
My thing, I think him withBanned Gypsies was the best.
Big, big classic rock fan, allthanks to my dad.
I've seen uh I've seen a few thethe ones that I wanted to see
from that era that are stillaround.
My my first concert was RogerDaltrey open for Eric Clapton.
(43:27):
That that was a good show.
I've seen a big Alice Cooperfan.
Um I've seen I've seen him like10 times.
SPEAKER_02 (43:34):
No more than Mr.
Nice Guy.
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
Yeah.
And on the topic of of rock androll, I had the chance to meet
Meatloaf before he passed.
SPEAKER_02 (43:48):
That album changed my life, man.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:55):
Right, right, right, right.
He was a super.
Super nice guy in person.
Really just, I mean, when whenhe he came to um Pittsburgh's
Comic-Con last year, and Iwaited in like must have been
like a three and a half hourline to get up to him.
(44:19):
And the reason that it took solong was because he was
literally taking like at leastlike five or ten minutes to talk
with every single person whocame to to meet him, get a
picture, get an autograph, orwhatever.
And just I I have nothing butgood things to say about
(44:39):
Meatloaf.
And you know, may may he rest inpeace and and rock and roll
heaven.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
Certainly speaks to his humanity that he engaged the
people that way.
SPEAKER_03 (44:51):
Definitely, definitely.
And he was supposed to come backto like the the following April
to to do another show, andunfortunately, you know, he he
passed.
SPEAKER_02 (45:02):
But yeah, we're all just passing through, right?
SPEAKER_03 (45:06):
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, let's let's getback to you here.
I I I there's no way we're gonnaget to everything on the list
here, but there's a couple morefilm, like ones I did want to
talk about.
One one that was pretty coolthat I'm I'm a big, big fan of
because like I said, Mad Max isa is a is a big uh big
(45:28):
inspiration for me, and that'sDeath Race.
SPEAKER_02 (45:31):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That was also not just a movie,but an experience, you know, on
camera and off camera place.
I'd never been to Montrealbefore, that's where we filmed
it in Canada, Montreal.
I was um staying at a hotel in aplace called Oldport, which is
just this historically beautifulplace with masonry and buildings
(45:55):
that were built hundreds ofyears ago.
It's just like uh living in amuseum.
It's amazing, just the settingwhere they had us housed was
beautiful.
And I was there for threemonths.
So I got I got the full tour,you know.
SPEAKER_03 (46:10):
Awesome, awesome.
That that movie is wild.
I mean, the all the stuff withthe cars and the the weaponized,
you know, vehicles and stuff.
I have I have to just say thisfor a sec because that movie was
a major inspiration on a scriptthat I'm currently working.
(46:32):
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith the name Patrick
Kilpatrick.
SPEAKER_02 (46:35):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Admit that.
SPEAKER_03 (46:37):
I'm currently working with him to try and get
one of my scripts made into afeature film, and it it involves
a lot of like hot rods and andlike you know, Mad Max type, you
know, road rage type mayhem.
SPEAKER_01 (46:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:58):
And I just have to say that, you know, along with
Mad Max, you know, the DeathRace movies were a major.
I I was I was watching DeathRace a lot when when I was
writing the the script.
So I just I just want to saythat that movie is awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (47:17):
Well I'm glad you you you it affected you.
I'm still kicking myself for notgoing to the premiere or to the
theatrical release.
I was afraid actually to gowatch it on the big screen.
You think I'd be run to thetheater to see something, you
know, is uh that provided anopportunity for that kind of
visibility and something thatwas, you know, not just a it
(47:40):
wasn't just a movie, man.
It was a you know thrill ridesas an event, right?
So I go into your own your owngraduation, you know.
I don't know what what it was.
I have some ideas, but I on amore positive note though, I
remember when I finally didmuster up the courage to watch
it by myself alone.
I was blown away by it, and thenI was really upset that I never
got to see it on the big screen,you know.
(48:02):
Um but when I I didn't becauseyou know I it's ambiguous
sometimes the way they work outthe deals with agents and
producers and stuff, so I didn'tknow how the the presentation of
my character would play.
I mean, I was in Canada when Iwas contacted by the studio to
do ADR, you know, the the youknow sound replacement for
certain scenes in the movie, andI got a a little bit of a a
(48:25):
preview of its potential, and Iwas like, my jaw dropped.
I could not believe what I waswatching.
I was like, wow, I didn'trealize the magnitude of this
thing, you know, and how uhvisible they're I'd planned on
making my character because Ihad been, you know, experienced
you know some disappointmentsthroughout the years, and not I
learned not to get my hopes up,you know, because you just you
(48:47):
know the gravity shift is toomuch, you know.
So you go and expect me, okay,they're gonna cut most of my
scenes, and you know, theyprobably won't even do the
billing correctly.
And they did everything right.
They gave me main title billing,single card, they championed the
glory of this character Grimm,and just the the car sequences
were you were uh mesmerizing.
(49:07):
Everything was was was there.
Uh, and so uh even with thispreview of doing the ADR and
seeing like, wow, this is gonnabe something else.
I was still you know afraid tosee it in the theaters, you
know.
But I'm glad did you see it whenit came out in the movie
theaters?
SPEAKER_03 (49:23):
I did, I did.
SPEAKER_02 (49:24):
Cool.
Glad someone was I'm glad yougot to see it in the theaters.
SPEAKER_03 (49:27):
Yeah, I I was very, very in it that when I saw the
trailer for it.
Well, first of all, I of courseknow about like Death Race 2000.
Yeah, yeah, the Roger Corman,you know.
SPEAKER_02 (49:40):
Yeah, was that Stallone and Carradine?
SPEAKER_03 (49:42):
Yeah, Stallone and Carradine, yeah.
Yeah, you know, so I I wasfamiliar with like the I guess
we'll be like Grindhouse typetype type version of it, yeah,
uh the original one.
And then when I saw Paul W SAnderson uh got his hands on
that material, first of all,I've been a fan like he blew me
(50:07):
away with Mortal Kombat.
And you know, like I you know, Igrew up in that that era, you
know, where like you know,Mortal Kombat as like a little
kid, you know, when when you'rewhen you're you know growing up
with like Sega Genesis and youknow Super Nintendo and all
that, and like Mortal Kombat waslike my game.
(50:32):
And when I saw that you knowthey were doing a movie uh of
it, and then you know, my again,my dad took me to see that in
theaters one one summer night,you know, after school or
something, and it was I I I I Iremember exactly where we saw
it, I remember exactly where Isaw the second one.
(50:53):
I know who we saw it with, whichtheater, and you know, I've been
a huge fan of anything he does,whether it's like you know,
video game adaptation oranything, because another movie
that had Gary Busey in it thathe directed that I'm a big big
fan of is Soldier with KurtRussell and Jason Scott Lee.
(51:14):
That's one of my favorite sci-fiflicks.
And I happen to think that EventHorizon is like his his top,
like one of his best films.
SPEAKER_02 (51:27):
Yeah, yeah.
That to me is a film that ismulti-layered, yeah.
It's not just the sci-fi, youknow, variable, there's other
things going on right in thesubtext of what they're
communicating that's reallyprofound.
You know, you just gotta stickdeep in your observations.
I think that film requires morefrom its audience than some of
(51:48):
the other movies.
SPEAKER_03 (51:49):
I de I definitely agree.
And and I'm kind of upset thatyou know the studio doesn't they
they don't want to pay basicallyto to find like the to get like
the lost footage that that youknow would would have that would
have they all got cut because itwas like you know too graphic,
yeah, whatever with like the thehell sequences or whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (52:12):
Yeah, it's ironic given the kind of world we live
in.
SPEAKER_03 (52:16):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (52:17):
They want to censor that aspect of things, but yet
you know they send my brothersoff to the Middle East to fight.
But and I'm not knocking thewar, I'm a veteran.
unknown (52:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (52:27):
I'm just saying it's ironic to me some of the
censorship that goes on.
And I think when you made apoint earlier about how things
have changed since the 90s, Ithink I think it was Ellen
Burston interview who she saidthat something trying to, I
don't I can't quote it, but Ithink what she was the what I
got from her comment about herobservation in terms of what was
happening was that the creativeelement was being siphoned out,
(52:50):
and it was less influential inthe decision process of making
movies and the motivation behindmaking them.
And it was turning more into amathematical equation, like it
lived in a bank somewhere,right?
Rather than the two workingtogether.
You know, they were trying toremove the creative voice, the
people that sat at the tablethat wanted to take risks and do
(53:12):
things.
The money people would say, nah,nah, nah.
So I think over time what'smaybe happened is that influence
of you know, the moneyinfluence, the banking
influence, and thispreoccupation with how much did
it make this weekend.
I don't people used to talk likethat around me, and I would just
leave the conversation and walkaway.
What's wrong, Robert?
I'm not a banker, man.
(53:32):
I don't you guys are tallying upmovie scores and numbers and
stuff, like you work forParamount, you know, you're in
the in the accountingdepartment.
You guys are just filmmakerstrying to put together your own
independent film, yet you'retalking like the man.
You sound like you sound like aTV commercial, bro.
It scares me.
I can't relate to none of that.
(53:52):
The people that you'reevaluating, the movies you're
evaluating, you know, that sameevaluation, like that saying,
you know, judge not, you knowwhat I mean?
Let's ye be judged with, youknow.
So it's kind of like I saw howcritical some of these young men
were with things that theywatched, and they would measure
it based on commerce, and yetthey tried to get a movie off
(54:14):
the ground and couldn'tunderstand and would go through
hell trying to raise finance toput something together, and
which is respected.
I I can respect any independentfilmmaker, anyone who's trying
to build something from theground up and doesn't have a
whole lot of money, but just isspirited enough to get the right
people involved to produce thething, like you're doing, like a
(54:34):
lot of people I know have done.
And so when people haveconversations like this and they
talk about the corporation likethey're in it, or they sound
like they're a part of it, itfrightens me because to me, some
of those guys in those positionsare your enemy, man.
They're not gonna sanction yourfilm or even look at it or care
when it comes to distributionabout placing it in a proper
(54:56):
platform, because their bottomline is the very thing you guys
are discussing, money.
And last time I looked, Ithought you guys were artists.
I'm not saying you should benaive in terms of uh the physics
of math and all that.
I'm not saying be just an artistand not understand the business
side, but you're evaluatingthings based on numbers rather
than how the entertainmentitself is affecting your heart
(55:19):
and your spirit or inspiring.
You guys don't sound likecreators, you sound like you
work in a bank for a bigcorporation and you guys barely
can rub a few nickels togetherto get your own movie made.
I mean, you hypocrites much.
So I I can't participate toomuch in that kind of that
diatribe or that dialoguebecause it reeks of envy, it
reeks of uh inadequacy, allkinds of things, man.
(55:43):
And um, I didn't get into it forthat.
And so my point is when EllenBurst made that comment about it
changing with someone of thatcaliber and that station of
movie star who's been around foryears, man.
You know, you were talking aboutthe last picture show, you know.
Right, right.
The actress is, you know, greatfilm.
She's been in an, you know, uhAlice doesn't live here anymore,
(56:06):
Martin Scosese, Harvey Cartel.
She's been in some amazingmovie, she's a great and
consummate actress.
I saw her teach at the actors'studio because that was part of
the Working Observer programthere.
Brilliant actress, goodbrilliant actor, right?
And so when you hear people likethis talking along those lines
about how the industry ischanging, and it's like it's not
paranoia anymore, it's justawareness to the changing of the
(56:28):
guard and what the what thepriority is, man.
And so I don't think it's any shit's into any surprise.
Your observation about, yeah,it's weird now how they go about
doing things and what's theirmotivation behind making these
things.
And do they really care?
Are they just trying to turn andburn and flip something over
that's old and seem to make itnew by those who don't know the
(56:52):
history of film, so they cansell something to the public as
if it they, you know, it'soriginal.
In fact, it's just a carbon copyof and a carbon copy of
something that was by farsuperior because the people who
made it loved it.
They weren't in love with themoney, they were in love with
what they were building.
If they could make money, great.
You know, I think it's you canbalance both to be driven by to
(57:15):
lean too much on either pole, Ithink is dangerous.
I think there's a way to kind ofyou know find equanimity within
both of those.
And I think sometimes that getslost when greed enters the room,
and a lot of the time greedenters the room.
SPEAKER_03 (57:30):
I definitely agree.
Yeah, I definitely agree.
And uh, you know, so much somuch on on that subject, it's
like when you have all thesemergers and stuff, you know,
like like Disney buying, youknow, Marvel and Star Wars and
20th Century Fox, you know, andthen you have, you know, like
(57:51):
like just you know, corporatemerging that some sometimes, you
know, like like like you said,you know, creativity kind of
gets lost, and are they tryingto like you know, McDonald's
manual manually manufacturesomething that's you know based
(58:12):
on profits versus artisticoriginality?
And I I think in a lot ofmainstream movies that I mean it
it seems to me that is the case,but yet you still have a lot of
like mainstream stuff that maybedoesn't get the attention that
(58:35):
something like you know StarWars or Indiana Jones number
five, you know, is is gonna get,but it could it could be like
more of you know an indie filmor something you know with a
smaller budget, a horror filmthat that could have you know
you know had something new, anidea that hadn't been done
(58:57):
before.
But I I I agree with you, thereis still a lot of great stuff
out there and coming out.
I just it is for it, man.
SPEAKER_02 (59:06):
I live Sam, I live for it.
So I'm not gonna damn it tohell, man, or be overjudgmental.
You know, why should I?
If a movie entertains me andtakes me out of my head for an
hour and a half or an hour long,hey, mission accomplished.
Thank you, Philmakers.
Exactly.
Everyone involved, thank you somuch.
SPEAKER_03 (59:22):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (59:24):
Right?
I mean, it's not thatcomplicated.
I don't, you know, it's not, Idon't I don't understand the
hate hate part or the uh the thecrit the criticisms, the endless
criticisms.
Right, right.
And I I try not to giveattention to that stuff, I just
look the other way.
I don't there's nothingproductive in that.
SPEAKER_03 (59:44):
So do I, so do I.
I mean, I I don't listen, I I'venever listened to the critics.
I you know, I need to see if I Ineed to see the film for myself.
You know, if if it if it lookedlike something that I wanted to
check out, that means I need toI need to see it for myself and
make my own judgment, you know,and I think you know, a lot of
(01:00:06):
people need to do that with youknow life in general and and
movies and and just not justwith movies, you know, like like
you know, they need to just maketheir own assessment on you know
day-to-day life, you know, orwhatever.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:21):
Agreed.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:29):
What's up, all my fishes in the sea?
Thanks for tuning in to myinterview with Robert Lazardo
and for being a subscriber.
You can tune in next Saturday at11 a.m.
Eastern Time for our conclusioninterview with Robert.
There's a lot of cool stuff westill have in the chat, and
you're definitely not gonna wantto miss that.
You can also subscribe for earlyaccess on my Bud Sprout website.
(01:00:53):
I am also accepting donations onthere from all you kind,
generous guppies in the sea.
I'm also selling custom merchnow, t-shirts, mugs, pens, all
the coolest stuff to make youlook like the fliest fish in the
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(01:01:17):
Facebook at Sam Fish.
Thank you for your continuedsupport, and if you like that, I
got a lot of cool stuff in theworks this year, so stay hooked
on the fishbowl.
And as always, please subscribe.
Attention all you fishes in the sea.
I'm your host, Sam Fish.
Come dive into the Fishbowl'slatest podcast interview with
character actor Robert Lozardo,most famous for Above the Law,
Out for Justice, Drop Zone,Waterworld, Death Race, and the
Mule, among many other films andTV series.
(00:22):
Come swim on in.
Robert Lozardo on the Fishbowl.
Welcome.
SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
Thanks for having me, Sam.
SPEAKER_03 (00:29):
Absolutely.
Thank you for uh taking the timeto swim in the bowl with me.
I uh I hope I hope thetemperature is just right.
SPEAKER_02 (00:39):
Me too.
SPEAKER_03 (00:42):
Awesome, awesome.
Well, I just have to say, like,I have been following your
career since I was like a littlekid.
I was born in '88, so I grew upwatching like all the action
movies and everything, you know,you appeared in.
And I I've I've been just alongtime fan of those types of
(01:03):
films.
I'm also a huge horror fan.
And there's quite a bit of that,you know, you've done as well.
And I have a huge long list ofquestions that it's okay if we
don't get it today, becausehonestly, I could probably do
like three or four one-hourinterviews covering like your
(01:26):
your entire span.
But the first question I havefor you is what got you
interested in film?
SPEAKER_02 (01:34):
You know, I Sam, honestly, at first I wasn't
interested in it.
I didn't understand themechanism, other than, you know,
like any other uh person thatenjoyed, you know, watching
movies and television shows whenthey, you know, as a kid that
influenced my life.
So it wasn't uh preordained,unless you know somebody else
(01:56):
had you know a plan for me,which sometimes I wonder about
that, you know, greater thanmyself, because it left to my
own devices.
Sometimes I go down the wrongroad.
So I'm sure you some of us canrelate to that.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:07):
But to answer your question, I went into the
military right out of highschool.
I I went to the high school,ironically, for the for
performing arts, which was aspecialized school that you know
was ideally a a precursor uh interms of training and vocation
of for theater or film andtelevision.
I just couldn't connect thedots.
(02:28):
I thought it was fun to perform.
I made a very close friend, ateacher there named Anthony
Apson, who was instrumental inhelping me understand the impact
as an artist that I and otherscan make if we commit to it.
And uh I remembered that, but Iwasn't ready to embrace it as a
(02:48):
as a as a as a duty, as a faith,as a book, you know, as a as a
as a career.
It didn't seem even possible.
It seemed it was about as faraway as the earth is from Pluto,
this idea of Hollywood andmovies.
I'm like, no, you know, no way,you know.
So I was more at that stage oflife, just it was more like a
lot of young men who areconfused and growing up in a
(03:08):
certain way, need to arestruggling with identity.
And I think that I realized whatI realized was at that stage of
life that I needed to employdiscipline or I was gonna ruin
my life.
So I I enlisted in the in themilitary for four years and got
got my shit squared away, asthey say.
And once I got out of themilitary, I reconnected.
(03:30):
Or during my my stint in themilitary, I kept in contact with
Anthony.
And he insisted on reminding menot of that I should not lose
sight of the creative uh side ofmy being.
And though there was thistendency to want to live a
normal, whatever that is,conventional structured life,
because so much of my earlierlife was not structured and
(03:53):
unstable.
I think there was this inneryearning for uh a family or
identification with somethingthat seemed permanent, you know,
or stable.
And I traveled the world lookingfor it.
So I, you know, became fullcircle.
And next thing I know, I'mstudying with my acting teacher,
but privately, you know, arefresh like this refresher
(04:13):
course to get reacquainted withthe craft of acting and theater,
and started auditioning forvarious television shows,
movies.
And uh at first I was notthrilled at the process.
It was horrifying to audition.
And I at that time I was alreadycovered in tattoos.
I had already, I don't know,maybe more than 50% of my upper
(04:35):
torso was covered in in ink, youknow, and it wasn't popular or
trendy back in those days.
So the comment was always,Robert's very talented, we want
to hire him, but we have aproblem with the tattoos.
It doesn't work in the worldthat we're making or we're
building.
So there was a lot ofdisappointment early on with the
auditions and a lot of, Iwouldn't say rejection, just a
(04:57):
lot of disappointment from thepoint of view of the of the
playwrights that you know that Iauditioned for for off-Broadway,
I auditioned for movies, Iauditioned for television.
And it was always like, yeah,his talent is very visible,
probably more visible than a lotof people that we see.
The irony is what's also visibleis the ink, and it's uh creating
a barrier, and we can't seem toget past it.
(05:19):
Sorry.
And so I lost a lot ofopportunities or was not allowed
opportunity to participatebecause of my physical
appearance.
And I don't fault the peoplethat made those decisions based
on a visual medium that requiresyou look a certain way.
I totally get it, you know.
So I lost heart for a while thefirst year out of the Navy, and
Anthony Apeson insisted that Ikeep my shirt on, you know, you
(05:42):
know, metaphorically andliterally, right?
Right.
They would eventually writeroles for me.
He had this crystal ball likeMerlin and saw a future for me
that there would come a timewhere it would not be as a big
of an issue as you think, andyour talent would overtranscend
this idea of pariah, this ideaof taboo, something you should
not do as a thespian, and thatthey would uh find a place for
(06:05):
me in the movie industry and Iwould make a living at it.
And a few months later, I wenton audition for a Warner
Brothers film and uh wentthrough a series of callbacks
and was hired to be in a filmwith Richard Pryor called Moving
under contract, was flown out toLos Angeles, and the reality
suddenly hit me that Anthonywasn't just blowing smoke.
(06:26):
And then I I had had a aproclivity, uh, uh an
instinctive feeling that wasvery positive when I performed
on stage.
So if you asked me what got meinto it is how I felt when I was
on stage performing, the rest ofthe world seemed to disappear.
And whatever um fiction orwhatever literature I immersed
(06:46):
myself in, it possessed me.
And uh, I love living in theseseemingly fictional worlds that
would become the more dominantreality as you dived into
character, dived intocircumstance, and all of what
was you know, basically what'srequired of the artist to
authenticate the playwright's uhliterature and and world so that
(07:06):
the audience can have a realexperience.
And there was something aboutthat process and that catharsis,
that kind of Ouija board magic,and you know, literally stepping
in psychically into other worldsand letting it overtake what you
perceive yourself to be in youreveryday life was to me like a
form of magic.
And it truly liberated metemporarily, it seemed to lift
(07:29):
me off the ground.
And I felt that anything waspossible within the frame of
that uh realm of performing, youknow.
That was what really put thehook in me.
It wasn't so much like, oh man,you know, I was staring in the
mirror all the time and I wantto be that guy.
I didn't really have anaffection for the vanity fair as
much as I felt somethingspiritually assisting me when I
(07:52):
would do the work.
There was something about itthat was healing.
SPEAKER_03 (07:55):
That's that's awesome.
That's that's very, very cool.
And you know, I mean, the theindustry has totally changed.
I mean, look at people likeDanny Trejo, you know, who are
covered in tattoos and now he'smachete, you know, and people
know who he is.
And you know, I mean it's it'sgreat that the industry has
(08:17):
allowed change to happen, but atthe same time, you know, it's
it's some some of the mostmemorable characters that you
know I remember you playing werebecause of you know you having
tattoos and stuff like that thatallowed you to get you know
roles like that.
And when I when I actually toldmy dad that I was gonna be
(08:41):
interviewing you yesterday fortoday, I showed him your picture
on IMDB and he was like, Holyshit, you're interviewing that
guy, you know, because you know,my my dad is pretty much the guy
who got me into like you knowall the movies and and music and
stuff I'm into.
He's the reason I I I went toschool here in Pittsburgh to
(09:04):
pursue screenwriting, and that'swhere I started my podcast.
And it's very cool to be able totalk to you and talk about you
know your career and a lot ofyour films and stuff, because
I'm definitely a big, big fan.
SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
Thank you, Sam.
If if you don't mind me asking,what's your what's your father's
name?
SPEAKER_03 (09:22):
Oh Jonathan.
SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
Jonathan, tell Jonathan, hey Jonathan, I
appreciate that.
Uh I'm not gonna assume you havean affection for me, but I
appreciate that.
Maybe at one point in time youmight have watched something
I've been in and uh enjoyed it,and that you passed on uh that
uh fascination to your son andallowed him to become a uh
(09:44):
sounds like you're a filmhistorian, Sam.
You very you get really into it.
You like me, you do the you dothe research, it's not just a
trend topic for you, right?
You really enjoy cinema, yes,right?
Thank you, Jonathan, for raisinghim that way.
SPEAKER_03 (09:59):
I I'm gonna I'm gonna call my dad as as soon as
as soon as we're done with theinterview.
I'm gonna tell him guess whatRob Lazardo said when you said
you gotta listen to thisinterview when it when it's
posted.
But uh yes, you know, I'm such afan of film, and I'm such a fan
of especially certain genres offilm, and it's actually because
(10:24):
of my dad letting me see uhtotal recall when I was five
years old.
Uh just cover my eyes on thethree-tated lady, but everything
else was fine, and you know, youknow, it left an imprint on me,
and I've I've been you know ahuge Arnold fan ever since then.
(10:45):
I've been a fan of just everysingle action movie, you know,
and it just it just sucksbecause they don't make you know
action movies like like they didin like the 80s and 90s, you
know, like like they do today.
SPEAKER_02 (11:00):
Agreed.
Yeah, it's changed a bit.
SPEAKER_03 (11:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Now we have like Fast and theFurious and you know superhero
movies, and not that I'm dissingFast and the Furious, you know.
I I I I'm invested in thatfranchise, I grew up with it,
you know, but I wanna I wannasee stuff like you know, like
like you were in, like, youknow, but that means it's a
great segue to talk about prettymuch the first movie that I I
(11:28):
really noticed you and when thatwas hard to kill.
Yeah, Steven Stigal.
Yeah, yeah, and I know you alsowork with him on Alpha Justice.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Yes.
I got a quick little littleanecdote or story for you, if
you don't mind.
Yeah, yeah.
I met Steven at an audition.
Like many, I had gone on when Iwas in Los Angeles at the time,
and um after my audition, he wasvery candid with me and said,
you know, I think you're aconsummate actor.
And he went on to say some otherreally favorable things.
And usually, you know, there'sthis almost like iron curtain,
(12:01):
you know, uh with producers anddirectors and stars when you go
in to read, and you almostwonder whether you fumbled the
ball or you, you know, youscored a touchdown.
You never really know how toread these individuals, you
know, based on you know theirbody language, their criteria
after the fact, you know.
Sometimes they can be verydismissive, sometimes they'll
engage you, but none of itreally adds up to anything until
(12:23):
you get the call that you've gotthe job, right?
So you you it's very important,I think, not to be presumptuous
about what happens there, youknow, positive or negative.
It's a lot of fairy dust, youknow, that could you know blown
into your face.
But the point is this that oncehe said that, I felt it was
unusual, other than what myexperience had been with Richard
Pryor, who's also very candidwith me and very personable, and
(12:45):
was instrumental in helpinghelping me uh establish
confidence that I did have theright to be where I was with him
in this movie, despite a lot ofnegative uh uh input from people
who did not understand the way Iwas manifesting with the
tattoos.
Like, good luck with that, youknow.
But the point is when you havepeople like this who are living
legends or movie starscomplimenting outside the circle
(13:09):
of negativity and introduce anew way of looking at things, it
kind of feels like a rebirth.
And that's what it was like forme with Stephen Sagal.
And soon after that audition, Iwas hired to be in that film
Hard to Kill with Kelly LeBron,who's his co-star.
And I had also the opportunityto speak with him on SETCU
because he's very friendly withme.
And he mentioned, hey, I gotthis film project, screenplay
(13:30):
and development, and I want youto be in it.
He went on to explain a littlebit about it, and it turned out
to be Offer Justice.
And a year later, I got a callfrom management saying that he
wanted to meet with me andwanted me to meet his director.
And after a brief uhconversation with the director
and Steven, I got the call abouta week or two later that I was
(13:50):
hired again on a Warner Brothersproject and under contract for a
couple of months.
So, how often, at least myexperience is that a lot of
people say things in Hollywood,but very, you know, it's very,
it's very rare that they meanwhat they say.
And even if they mean what theysay, it it doesn't always bear
fruit.
You know, so you learn early onnot to take the compliments or
the you know the insults tooserious.
(14:12):
You just kind of flow like itlike the Taoists.
You just kind of go where theriver goes and with good
intention or with with the withyour your motivation and hope
that you can make impact andsomeone will recognize that and
hire you.
My point about Stephen, though,is that he kept his word.
I could easily thought, oh,that's nice, man.
Oh, you have a project indevelopment, great, wow, cool,
(14:33):
and been you know, notnecessarily moved by the uh the
seeming the seeming offer youknow to participate in another
movie because it sounded soauthentic.
I got this character I want youto play in my my next movie, and
it seemed like I was having aconversation, not with the
celebrity or the icon, but justa man who respected me and his
(14:56):
wife as well, at the time, Kellythe Brock, were very friendly,
and they were looking at mytattoos and they had no problem
with them.
We were just talking about them.
So it was like a non-issue,which is very rare for me to be
in a situation across from thismovie star when I had come from
a world where everywhere I went,I felt like people were throwing
rocks at me because of it andthe social dynamics of my life,
(15:18):
you know, personal, you know,work jobs I did, I'd have to go
in the back where the peoplewouldn't see me because the boss
didn't want people to see that Ihad tattoos because maybe they
wouldn't eat at the place.
It just there was so much ofthis um grime associated with
the imagery that's not presentin this day and age that when I
met very powerful and celebratedcelebrities who were actually
(15:41):
quite the opposite in the waythey perceived me, it was
mind-blowing, man.
It was truly mind-blowing.
So there was no judgment, therewas just love and appreciation
for my ability.
And hey, I want to give you ajob.
Okay, wow.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
That that's awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
And I also just want to ask you Stephen for that.
SPEAKER_03 (15:58):
Yeah, that's that's awesome.
I I also just want to say thatHard to Kill is my number one
favorite, Steven Segal.
SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Right on.
That's a good one.
It's a good one, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:10):
You know, a lot of great stars in that.
Well, one of my one of my alsolong time favorite stars,
William Sadler.
I'm a big big fan of his, youknow, he's he's always he's
another great character actorthat that's just been a lot of a
lot of stuff.
But another really awesomeaction film that I'm a big fan
(16:34):
of, and they've just actuallybeen playing it on the movie
channels.
I've been watching it everysingle time it's on Drop Zone.
SPEAKER_02 (16:41):
Oh, wow, wow.
That was a just a movie, man.
That was an experience for me.
I got to go to Florida, it wasyou know, back in the 90s, you
know.
Right.
Different world back then.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I know, I know.
We filmed in the Florida Keys,Key West, we filmed in Miami, we
(17:02):
filmed in Key Largo, I think.
We, you know, we moved a bit.
There was all quite a fewcompany moves within that
geography, uh, and every one ofthem was you know prettier than
the next.
You know, it's just an amazingtime.
And I Wesley Snipes, I've knownfor years, uh, worked with him
on a film.
Uh I don't know if you rememberthis film with Christopher
Walken and David Crusoe calledKing of New York.
SPEAKER_03 (17:24):
That's actually on the list.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:28):
And I known Wesley, and when Wesley saw that I had
arrived at this party that's youknow, to celebrate the movie,
you know, it wasn't a rap party,it was prior to filming, you
know, just kind of a welcome totype thing uh and event.
And Wesley came right up to me,he said, Hey, hey, hey, Bob, and
he gave me a hug.
You know, it was really nice.
I felt at home.
You know, it wasn't any ofthese, uh, you know, sometimes I
(17:50):
guess I've heard stories, youknow, some movie stars, they put
on airs and you can't talk tothem.
And it was like just coming hometo family, you know, it was
really nice.
SPEAKER_03 (17:59):
That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
And and John Badham, you know, who directed Saturday
never, you know, who directedDrop Zone, he was a very nice
man, and uh is a very nice manand was, you know, and there's
this whole slew of people that Iworked with that were very
pleasant and friendly, so it wasa really nice experience.
SPEAKER_03 (18:16):
That's awesome.
I I know you've also you'veworked with Gary Beusey a couple
of times.
SPEAKER_02 (18:21):
Yeah, Gary, sure.
And uh I called Gary up onceafter the movie just to say hi
and see how he was doing, and hestarted talking, then he said,
Hang on a second, and he grabbedhis guitar and started singing
to me while we're on the phone.
It's like, wow, I'm getting thesong out of this too, not just
the conversation and small soft.
He's he's performing for me.
It's great.
SPEAKER_03 (18:43):
I I had the chance to meet Gary once.
He came to uh PittsburghComic-Con a few years ago, and
it was honestly one of thecoolest experiences because you
know everybody you know hasthese stories about Gary now and
everything.
And when I met him, it was likean amazing experience.
(19:09):
He was such a nice guy.
I I when I go to theseconventions, I like to hand out
my business card along with likea an official like fishbowl pen.
And when he took the pen, it waslike he was just fascinated with
it, and you know, said that hehe would uh possibly do my show.
(19:32):
You know, I I I I probablyshould follow up with him
because it's been a while, buthe was he's um I'm a huge, huge
Gary Busey fan.
SPEAKER_02 (19:41):
Yeah, good too.
He's a great actor.
Yeah, you see the Buddy Hollystory, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (19:47):
Yeah, and I I I love his son also, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (19:50):
Yeah, brilliance.
SPEAKER_03 (19:52):
Yeah.
I mean, we could also talk aboutuh the real thing that you work
with him on.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
Patrick Gallagher, uh Patrick Gallagher, I believe,
produced that as a friend ofmine from the past, a good
really nice guy.
He produced that film.
And Ashley Lawrence, a friend ofmine, was one of the leads in
that.
Hesai Morales in that was inthat film.
Ironically, he went to the samehigh school together.
He went to the high school ofperforming arts and studied with
Anthony Apeson as well.
And you know, we had this youknow kind of friendship, this
(20:21):
vicarious friendship over theyears, hesi Morales and I.
And then I got to meet RodSteiger, the Illustrated Man,
ironically.
I don't remember him playingthat role in the book, Rick
Barry, Ray Bradbury's book, TheIllustrated Man, but uh it was
bizarre, you know, to see him,you know, old Hollywood, you
know, golden age of Hollywoodright there on the set, and it's
(20:43):
an event.
Right, right.
And uh yeah, so yeah, the realthing.
Yeah, I remember that shootingthat film.
I think they was the director'sname, James Marandino, I think
it's his name, James Marandinodirected that forgive me if I'm
getting the names wrong.
I think that was the name of thedirector.
SPEAKER_03 (20:59):
No worries.
I I'm honestly not a hundredpercent sure on that.
So you and you've also workedwith James Russo a couple of
times.
I'm a big fan of his as well.
SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
Yeah, yeah.
We I think I I did my one of myone of my early, my first
independent film directed byAbel Ferrara called China Girl.
SPEAKER_03 (21:19):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Starring David Caruso and and James Russo,
yeah.
Right.
Who you know, fast forward intothe future that I'd be working
with uh J J James Russo andDavid Caruso on you know NYPD
Blue and then CSI Miami.
I'm gonna jump, I'm gonna I'mgonna jump ahead.
I tend to do this, so I'll jumparound.
SPEAKER_03 (21:39):
No, you're you're fine, you're fine.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
So let's fast forward into like you know 2000,
whatever it was.
I think it was 200 maybe 11,that I was doing I they brought
this character back, a characterback that I was portraying
called Memo Fiero on a part ofthis cartel named the Mala
Noche.
And I don't know what season itwas of CSI Miami, but anyway,
long story.
Sure, is that David and I weretalking, and to the producer's
(22:03):
amazement, because I didn'trealize this, but David was
apparently, I guess, I wouldn'tsay he was feared, but he was a
very private man, and it seemedto be, uh, from what I was
noticing, and that he wasextremely calculative and very
meticulous about how he wantedto go about the episodes.
(22:23):
You know, almost got the sensethat he was co-directing at
times and would discuss with thewriter sometimes in a heated
fashion about certain scenesthat he wanted to adjust.
So I got the sense that hispresence just wasn't the star,
but like that he had creativeinfluence.
And when him and I just startedjust small talking about the
past, and we used to talk a lotabout this movie Apocalypse Now,
(22:47):
directed by Francis Borcloppola.
That's a classic, right?
He was fascinated with thisfilm, and so was I.
So we'd have like theseexistential philosophical
conversations about the film,and he would tell me things that
he thought, and I would sharethat.
And the producers was like, takeme aside after we'd finish the
day, and they'd say, Wow, likehow do you know David?
I go, Well, David and I go wayback.
(23:08):
I did my first independent filmwith him, you know, uh you know,
uh called China Girl, and thenwe worked on NYPD Blue together,
and you know, we've run intoeach other on the street, we run
into you know King of New York,you know.
So I've known David, and andDavid has an affection for me,
and uh, we we think alike.
And they were like, wow, becausehe doesn't talk to anybody.
(23:28):
I said, wait a minute.
Yeah, I said, What?
How did you get him to?
I said, I'm like, why are youasking me this, man?
You guys are the producers.
You're telling me that you can'tcommunicate with your own star.
I don't know if it was fear oror maybe he just didn't feel
like you know, he uh like Isaid, his method was maybe very
uh specific and uh and monastic,and he just maybe wanted to be
(23:49):
left alone.
But I guess it was not an ausual occurrence to see David
Caruso, the star of CSI Miami,you know, small talking with a
guest star on the show, youknow, like what's your deal,
Robert?
What you know, how do you knowthis guy that he's opening up to
you in a way that he would neveropen up to people who he's been
working with for years, youknow?
And I I I I counted that as avictory for myself.
(24:12):
I thought, wow, that must bespecial or something.
But simply it was just that himand I connected, man.
You know, right?
He liked me and I liked him, andit was no, there was no cra
there was no bolt, you know, itwas just straight talk, man,
about things we both were couldrelate to, independent of the
work that we were doing, youknow.
And it's nice when that happensbecause it doesn't happen a lot.
So yeah, James Russo, and then Iwent on to work with dude, I did
(24:36):
a couple of films with JamesRusso.
China Girl, I did the realthing, I did this other thing, I
think it was called Blood Money.
I it might have changed thetitle.
And I recently was in a filmthat starring a gentleman named
Ciro DiPaggio, the mob king,where James Russo is in that,
and I have a cameo in that film.
So yeah, James and I keeprunning into each other
(24:58):
indirectly.
You know, it's wild.
He's been around, like you know,he's he's he's like me.
He's done many combat tours inthe industry of shows.
I he once said to me, because wesometimes we would hang out in
the early days in the 90s, andhe was really a skillful
baseball player.
And one of the things he noticedabout me while he was hitting
(25:19):
these monstrous home run ballsthat I pitched to him was my
endurance to run after the balland catch.
And he said, Man, you've gotendurance.
And so I took that as acompliment in terms of that what
he meant was that as long as youhave the endurance to deal with
what's gonna go, you know, whatbasically is in front of you in
terms of career, you know,you're gonna do fine.
(25:42):
And so I I I understood what hewas saying, uh, kind of
metaphorically as well, becausehe had made comments to me along
those lines, and I appreciate itbecause a lot of times these
some of these guys are not nice,you know.
So you it's always surprising tome when someone offers uh a
compliment that you know, asidefrom you know their own, you
know, ego trip.
(26:03):
So that was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03 (26:05):
That's awesome, that's very cool.
Yeah, he he he seems like a likea really nice guy.
Uh he's he's another guy I'vebeen trying to get on my show.
Um, I could you know talk forhours about stuff he's he's been
in.
SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
Yeah, he's worked with like you know, he's worked
with a lot of people.
I'm sure he has a lot of storiesto tell.
You know, the question is howmany does he want to tell?
You know, um, but you know,because it's not always not all
roses, right?
Is it?
SPEAKER_01 (26:31):
Uh people don't want to hear that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
Some people want to hear hear the dirt, and some
people want to talk to glory.
You know, I like to do a littlebit of both myself.
But yeah, James has worked witha lot of people.
He told me things, sharedinformation with me about
certain stars that he workedwith, and you know, and it was
mind-boggling.
Some of the stories that heshared with me and some of his
experiences and how close he gotto that circle of power and you
(26:55):
know what he witnessed.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
I'll just leave it there.
Interesting, very interesting.
Yeah.
Another film that I I I am I'm abig big fan of, and you know, I
and and I really think JimCarrey quoted it the best in the
cable guy, uh, and that wasWaterworld.
(27:19):
I know Waterworld didn't itdidn't get like well received at
the time it came out, but butfor me, and and I think a lot of
other people that were like myage at the time, we loved it.
And despite what the critics maymay have said about it, it it's
(27:39):
a fun action, it's it's like MadMax with water, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't put a lot of stock in ina certain percentage of the
critics because I've watchedfilms that I've enjoyed
thoroughly and then referencedthe Rotten Tomatoes.
And I asked myself, did you didyou see the same movie that I oh
I I know, I know it doesn't makesense, and then they praise
something, they praise the gloryof something, and I'll watch it
and I don't connect with it.
(28:05):
It's like trying to tellsomebody what kind of music they
like.
Exactly.
It's a really slippery slope.
It's not a I don't know if thisthe science of cinema clearly is
there, but I think there's otheraspects and elements that make
films work that don'tnecessarily abide by the physics
of cinema science that have todo with the the the character
(28:27):
study or the soul power of thefilm or the writing or you know
the disposition of characterthat communicates an emotion or
an archetype that people canidentify with and touches them
in their heart.
I think the analytics ofcriticism with a lot of these
people who observe movies fromthat point of view is very
intellectual and it seems todivorce itself from the heart of
(28:49):
the matter.
And some movies are drivenpurely by the heart itself
rather than all the technicalflaws that people, you know, so
willingly want to find anddismiss the emotional content.
And I think emotional content,if it's communicated
authentically, can changepeople's lives.
I know it has for me.
(29:10):
When I watched movies, and Iafterwards I was like, the movie
stayed with me my whole life, orfor months afterwards, I was
still there because I was ittouched me, and I didn't have
time to look at the flawsbecause I was so enamored or
pulled into the experience ofcharacter relationships and the
story that I didn't care aboutthat stuff.
And I think most critics theytend to divorce not all of them,
(29:33):
but some it seems a pattern,they divorce themselves
emotionally and look at it likeit's some kind of physics
project, you know.
And I don't I think it'sdangerous when you reduce art to
mathematics, man.
I think there's a place for it,but you can't sometimes they go
a little overboard with that.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
I I completely agree, you know, because I mean,
especially like like I mean, youyou could tell things were kind
of shifting when that movie cameout because it you know, like in
the 80s and even before that,70s, you know, all cinema before
that, like like you could youcould make like a a concept and
(30:18):
have it kind of be totally outof the box, and and it could be
sci-fi, fantasy, action, or youknow, horror, whatever.
And now it's like you kind ofhave to have films that are
almost, I mean, at leastmainstream, that are more on, I
(30:38):
guess, like like a realisticbased platform, even if they
are, you know, in the realm ofsci-fi or fantasy, you know, or
something.
You can't you can't like make alike a movie that, you know,
because people criticize plotholes and stuff now way more
than I feel like they did backin our, you know, the like when
(31:02):
we were when I was growing up,you know, and back in the 80s
and 90s, people were more justentertained with going to see,
you know, a movie, you know, andand now people, it's you know,
you have you know, the theinternet has almost made it
impossible to kind of like getaway with out seeing you know
(31:25):
someone talking bad aboutsomething about something, you
know, when the movie could havebeen great or you know, or it
may not, you know, but like likeyou know, you said and before,
you know, it's all subjective.
SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
Yeah, and and that brings me to a more personal
point.
I mean, if I were to rely on theperceptions of some of the
people that uh I met throughoutmy earlier life and their
evaluation of me on a personallevel, creative level, whatever
the evaluation was, and theirchecklist, and believed in that
stuff, I might not be aliveright now.
(32:01):
And I'm not trying to bemelodramatic or anything, but I
think that it's dangerous whenyou allow other people's
opinions to influence the wayyou move through life, how you
experience it, and theperception of this idea of self,
you know.
And it's the same thing withfilm, you know, you make a film
or you collaborate with othersto make a film, and it's like
(32:22):
building a house, you know, andyou try to build it the best way
you know how, and so people canlive in it and it can hold the
weight of the responsibility ofwhat it needs to hold.
And you look at each otherideally and hold hands or shake
each other's hands, say, heyman, we've built this.
And whether the people that lookat it objectively and say, I
don't like that kind of house,who cares?
I mean, there's gonna be peoplewho like it, there's gonna be
(32:43):
people that that don't like it,there's gonna be people who
don't want to burn it down.
I think it speaks more to theobserver than the house itself.
And I and that's you know, mymeaning that the audience, what
you're saying about audiencestoday, I don't know what the
issue is.
I have some I some theories, butI won't go into it too much, but
I just feel like it's morereflective of the audience than
(33:03):
it is the cinema.
SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:06):
I still witness brilliance brilliance in films
that are mind-blowing.
And I read the reviews and I'mlike, wow.
And I've known a couple ofcritics, and what I noticed
about some of them was thattheir personal lives didn't seem
very fulfilled.
And I think when you lean tooheavy on the art form to fill in
the gaps of your life, and youcondemn it because it doesn't
(33:28):
necessarily bring you into astate of nirvana or you know,
blow your mind to the degree inwhich you want it to, because
you've gotten so used towatching film after film that
you it becomes redundant.
There's this, I think, maybeunconscious temptation to
confuse your own personal lifeor whatever dissatisfaction
(33:51):
you're experiencing, and placethat responsibility on the film,
on responsibility on the film.
And and that's not reasonable.
And I I a lot and I remembertalking to some people I knew
that were critics who would askme, What did you think about
that?
And I would explain how I feltabout the film experience, and
like, really, that's what yougot from that.
I go, I didn't even understandhalf of the movie.
So I would explain it to themthinking, how scary it is that
(34:13):
this person has the power tocritique this film and doesn't
even understand the material,but yet I completely got it.
I'm not saying I'm smarter thanthis individual, but you you
know, people give some peoplegive a lot of credibility to
these people, some of theseindividuals who've been anointed
to observe, evaluate, and judgewhether or not the film bears
(34:34):
the required, you know, therequired specifications of merit
based on a program.
But I I wonder sometimes if thepeople that are setting up that
checklist are reasonable in howthey observe and judge things.
I wonder about that, and becauseI've seen evidence personally
(34:54):
that they're not always lookingat things with uh both eyes
opened or they don't evenunderstand what they're
watching.
And so if they don't understandit and they can't decipher the
subtext or the deeper meaning,the esoteric meaning of the
film, rather than ask for helpto understand what they've
witnessed, they discount it asin oh, it's incoherent
(35:17):
filmmaking.
Doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense to you.
But just because you don'tnecessarily understand the lyric
of a Jimi Hendrix song or a riffthat's played by some really
far-out guitar player, doesn'tmean that it doesn't communicate
its own genius, you know.
So I think there's limitationsin in terms of the observer
looking at various genres ofcinema and their ability to
(35:41):
recognize in a balanced way bothwhat works in a film and what
doesn't, I still thinkultimately should come away with
that they were entertained by itsomehow.
Well, you know, was thereanything that you liked about
it?
Is what I always asked.
Clearly, there's evidence infilm history where the
filmmakers were negligent anddidn't care about the material
(36:03):
and it was an exploitationpiece, and clearly that would be
dealt with accordingly.
But when you have films that youcan tell there's a lot of work
went into them, and theperformances are really just
inspiring.
And some person comes along andjust glosses over it like an
inconsequential variable, likeit has no meaning, and focuses
(36:25):
on one point or a couple ofpoints in the film that did not
work based on their criteria,they ignore everything else.
Some of them do, some of themare well balanced in their
observation.
They say, Well, I like this,this, and the A, B, C, and D,
but this was confusing to me.
But you know what?
You watch it.
If you like this, this, andthis, you probably will enjoy
(36:45):
this.
I think you can evaluate filmsin a reasonable way.
I think the problem now is thatthere's so many opportunities,
like you said, with theinternet, to be a
self-proclaimed critic.
I wonder sometimes howlegitimate these people are in
their ability to observe thingsin a reasonable and correct, not
correct, a reasonable andmerciful way, man.
SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
Right.
You know, right.
SPEAKER_02 (37:09):
Are they using the station for their own
grandiosities, you know, to begrandiose so they can rip
something apart because it makesthem feel empowered, you know,
or are they actually pointingout something that a lot of
people agree, yeah, this was a asubstandard product because it's
not a not watchable movie, andall would agree, or a lot of
people would agree.
But like I said, I think theproblem is that really quality
(37:31):
films suffer under the thistyranny of extreme judgment,
man.
And I don't know, I don'tunderstand where that's come
from.
I I like I said, I have sometheories about work.
I think it has a lot to do withpeople in their personal lives
not feeling fulfilled, and theyproject that onto the movie, or
maybe they are frustrated intheir own lives because they may
(37:53):
have wanted to, they had somecreative dream that was never
fully realized, and they usetheir platform to blame, you
know, unconsciously orconsciously, filmmakers for
something that has nothing to dowith the film itself, but
because they were not able toeither participate, produce,
act, write, whatever, they'rekind of you know sh spewing a
(38:14):
lot of their own dispersonaldisappointments and using the
film.
It's like, you know, it's a kindof a form of abuse.
Like, well, this bio, thisbiological father abused his
son, so the son is now passingon the same abuse, you know,
without recognizing that it'syou know, you're being abusive
to you're abusing your stationand and you're abusing the art
(38:37):
form because you feel left out.
You feel that you were nottreated fairly.
And so now you're gonna takethat frustration and revenge out
on filmmakers and people thathave nothing to do with any of
that, you know, and I thinkthere's a lot of misdirection in
that in that sense, where peopleare projecting their
frustrations about their owncareers onto actors, writers,
(39:01):
directors, and producers becausethey're simply not being invited
into the project.
And so they damn it to hell, soto speak.
And I think there is apercentage of that.
No one, I I doubt very very fewpeople would admit that.
They may not even be consciousof it.
But it is a very competitivefield, and competition by its
very nature doesn't alwayscreate a kumbaya moment.
(39:22):
You know, it creates uh envy,and envy sometimes can get quite
ugly in the way it uses liter,you know, uh its cleverness uh
to seemingly, you know, thisobject to employ this objective
uh reasoning uh as it ripssomething apart, and it's not
being objective at all.
It's uh it's it's just using itsthe the intelligence in a way to
(39:47):
uh uh deconstruct and tearthings down and basically remove
the inspiration that uh thespirit of of of collaboration
that the people came togetherfor in the first place, you
know, uh because they fell inthe critic feels uninspired.
And they draw inspiration bytearing things down.
(40:09):
It's like this almost likepyromaniac kind of psyche, like,
well, I love to watch it burn,you know.
But to build requires so muchwork and efforts, and you have
to take risks when you build.
You got to really put yourselfout there.
And I think that portion getsforgotten when things are judged
and observed.
And it's I think sometimes itcan be a cowardly way to
(40:30):
evaluate things if you don'tevaluate them with balance.
I'm not saying you have to, youknow, approach every film like
it's um a masterpiece.
I'm just saying if you're sayingto me, Robert, I noticed that
things have changed over theyears, and the the judgments are
severe in terms of observationof cinema, and the critiques and
the and the critics are just youknow light, you know, basically
(40:53):
gaslighting every every fiveminutes, then what does that
say?
You know, is it are all thefilms really that bad?
Or are people's lives, you know,is it more of a reflection of
people's lives?
I mean, it's a rhetorical.
I don't know the answer.
Right.
But I cannot believe based onbeing a consumer, because I am a
film consumer, I watch a lot ofmovies, you know, and I'm not
(41:14):
gonna uh play party to this ideathat cinema is collapsing, that
we're in the dark ages, thatthere's no light, there's no
hope, it's all crap.
I don't believe that becauseit's just when I start to think
along those lines, I'll watch amovie and I go, wow, you know,
it may not be a mainstream film,maybe it's a moderate budget,
(41:35):
who knows what classificationit's it's measured and based on
banking, but I don't care aboutthat.
I'm I look at it and I go, wow,man, that was really good.
It really affected me.
Wow, you know, time well spent.
And I see, I I think to myself,why would people be so critical
to divorce themselves from anopportunity of escapism where
(41:58):
they can feel better about theirday-to-day life?
Because that's, I think a lot ofpeople utilize movies for that
way, because maybe their livesare not that much, not that
exciting, or maybe they'rehaving a problem with their
personal life, and they weescape into fantasy to try to
remedy this, this, this, thestink of of reality sometimes,
you know, and it helps us like ashot, a whiskey, or you know,
(42:21):
whatever.
And so, in that sense, why wouldyou condemn or damn the very
thing that is basically helpingyou escape from your day-to-day
life and and the humdrum this?
I don't understand that.
I don't get that part.
Never have.
SPEAKER_03 (42:37):
I'm honestly kind of baffled by it too, because I
mean, I I went to school for themovies, you know.
I'm I'm about the movies, mypassion is movies.
Yeah, same, same with music.
You know, I I I interview a lotof musicians as well.
I'm a big rock and roll guy.
Yeah, right on, you know,Hendrix is my number one from
(43:01):
classic rock era.
My thing, I think him withBanned Gypsies was the best.
Big, big classic rock fan, allthanks to my dad.
I've seen uh I've seen a few thethe ones that I wanted to see
from that era that are stillaround.
My my first concert was RogerDaltrey open for Eric Clapton.
(43:27):
That that was a good show.
I've seen a big Alice Cooperfan.
Um I've seen I've seen him like10 times.
SPEAKER_02 (43:34):
No more than Mr.
Nice Guy.
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
Yeah.
And on the topic of of rock androll, I had the chance to meet
Meatloaf before he passed.
SPEAKER_02 (43:48):
That album changed my life, man.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:55):
Right, right, right, right.
He was a super.
Super nice guy in person.
Really just, I mean, when whenhe he came to um Pittsburgh's
Comic-Con last year, and Iwaited in like must have been
like a three and a half hourline to get up to him.
(44:19):
And the reason that it took solong was because he was
literally taking like at leastlike five or ten minutes to talk
with every single person whocame to to meet him, get a
picture, get an autograph, orwhatever.
And just I I have nothing butgood things to say about
(44:39):
Meatloaf.
And you know, may may he rest inpeace and and rock and roll
heaven.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
Certainly speaks to his humanity that he engaged the
people that way.
SPEAKER_03 (44:51):
Definitely, definitely.
And he was supposed to come backto like the the following April
to to do another show, andunfortunately, you know, he he
passed.
SPEAKER_02 (45:02):
But yeah, we're all just passing through, right?
SPEAKER_03 (45:06):
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, let's let's getback to you here.
I I I there's no way we're gonnaget to everything on the list
here, but there's a couple morefilm, like ones I did want to
talk about.
One one that was pretty coolthat I'm I'm a big, big fan of
because like I said, Mad Max isa is a is a big uh big
(45:28):
inspiration for me, and that'sDeath Race.
SPEAKER_02 (45:31):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That was also not just a movie,but an experience, you know, on
camera and off camera place.
I'd never been to Montrealbefore, that's where we filmed
it in Canada, Montreal.
I was um staying at a hotel in aplace called Oldport, which is
just this historically beautifulplace with masonry and buildings
(45:55):
that were built hundreds ofyears ago.
It's just like uh living in amuseum.
It's amazing, just the settingwhere they had us housed was
beautiful.
And I was there for threemonths.
So I got I got the full tour,you know.
SPEAKER_03 (46:10):
Awesome, awesome.
That that movie is wild.
I mean, the all the stuff withthe cars and the the weaponized,
you know, vehicles and stuff.
I have I have to just say thisfor a sec because that movie was
a major inspiration on a scriptthat I'm currently working.
(46:32):
I'm not sure if you're familiarwith the name Patrick
Kilpatrick.
SPEAKER_02 (46:35):
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Admit that.
SPEAKER_03 (46:37):
I'm currently working with him to try and get
one of my scripts made into afeature film, and it it involves
a lot of like hot rods and andlike you know, Mad Max type, you
know, road rage type mayhem.
SPEAKER_01 (46:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:58):
And I just have to say that, you know, along with
Mad Max, you know, the DeathRace movies were a major.
I I was I was watching DeathRace a lot when when I was
writing the the script.
So I just I just want to saythat that movie is awesome.
SPEAKER_02 (47:17):
Well I'm glad you you you it affected you.
I'm still kicking myself for notgoing to the premiere or to the
theatrical release.
I was afraid actually to gowatch it on the big screen.
You think I'd be run to thetheater to see something, you
know, is uh that provided anopportunity for that kind of
visibility and something thatwas, you know, not just a it
(47:40):
wasn't just a movie, man.
It was a you know thrill ridesas an event, right?
So I go into your own your owngraduation, you know.
I don't know what what it was.
I have some ideas, but I on amore positive note though, I
remember when I finally didmuster up the courage to watch
it by myself alone.
I was blown away by it, and thenI was really upset that I never
got to see it on the big screen,you know.
(48:02):
Um but when I I didn't becauseyou know I it's ambiguous
sometimes the way they work outthe deals with agents and
producers and stuff, so I didn'tknow how the the presentation of
my character would play.
I mean, I was in Canada when Iwas contacted by the studio to
do ADR, you know, the the youknow sound replacement for
certain scenes in the movie, andI got a a little bit of a a
(48:25):
preview of its potential, and Iwas like, my jaw dropped.
I could not believe what I waswatching.
I was like, wow, I didn'trealize the magnitude of this
thing, you know, and how uhvisible they're I'd planned on
making my character because Ihad been, you know, experienced
you know some disappointmentsthroughout the years, and not I
learned not to get my hopes up,you know, because you just you
(48:47):
know the gravity shift is toomuch, you know.
So you go and expect me, okay,they're gonna cut most of my
scenes, and you know, theyprobably won't even do the
billing correctly.
And they did everything right.
They gave me main title billing,single card, they championed the
glory of this character Grimm,and just the the car sequences
were you were uh mesmerizing.
(49:07):
Everything was was was there.
Uh, and so uh even with thispreview of doing the ADR and
seeing like, wow, this is gonnabe something else.
I was still you know afraid tosee it in the theaters, you
know.
But I'm glad did you see it whenit came out in the movie
theaters?
SPEAKER_03 (49:23):
I did, I did.
SPEAKER_02 (49:24):
Cool.
Glad someone was I'm glad yougot to see it in the theaters.
SPEAKER_03 (49:27):
Yeah, I I was very, very in it that when I saw the
trailer for it.
Well, first of all, I of courseknow about like Death Race 2000.
Yeah, yeah, the Roger Corman,you know.
SPEAKER_02 (49:40):
Yeah, was that Stallone and Carradine?
SPEAKER_03 (49:42):
Yeah, Stallone and Carradine, yeah.
Yeah, you know, so I I wasfamiliar with like the I guess
we'll be like Grindhouse typetype type version of it, yeah,
uh the original one.
And then when I saw Paul W SAnderson uh got his hands on
that material, first of all,I've been a fan like he blew me
(50:07):
away with Mortal Kombat.
And you know, like I you know, Igrew up in that that era, you
know, where like you know,Mortal Kombat as like a little
kid, you know, when when you'rewhen you're you know growing up
with like Sega Genesis and youknow Super Nintendo and all
that, and like Mortal Kombat waslike my game.
(50:32):
And when I saw that you knowthey were doing a movie uh of
it, and then you know, my again,my dad took me to see that in
theaters one one summer night,you know, after school or
something, and it was I I I I Iremember exactly where we saw
it, I remember exactly where Isaw the second one.
(50:53):
I know who we saw it with, whichtheater, and you know, I've been
a huge fan of anything he does,whether it's like you know,
video game adaptation oranything, because another movie
that had Gary Busey in it thathe directed that I'm a big big
fan of is Soldier with KurtRussell and Jason Scott Lee.
(51:14):
That's one of my favorite sci-fiflicks.
And I happen to think that EventHorizon is like his his top,
like one of his best films.
SPEAKER_02 (51:27):
Yeah, yeah.
That to me is a film that ismulti-layered, yeah.
It's not just the sci-fi, youknow, variable, there's other
things going on right in thesubtext of what they're
communicating that's reallyprofound.
You know, you just gotta stickdeep in your observations.
I think that film requires morefrom its audience than some of
(51:48):
the other movies.
SPEAKER_03 (51:49):
I de I definitely agree.
And and I'm kind of upset thatyou know the studio doesn't they
they don't want to pay basicallyto to find like the to get like
the lost footage that that youknow would would have that would
have they all got cut because itwas like you know too graphic,
yeah, whatever with like the thehell sequences or whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (52:12):
Yeah, it's ironic given the kind of world we live
in.
SPEAKER_03 (52:16):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_02 (52:17):
They want to censor that aspect of things, but yet
you know they send my brothersoff to the Middle East to fight.
But and I'm not knocking thewar, I'm a veteran.
unknown (52:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (52:27):
I'm just saying it's ironic to me some of the
censorship that goes on.
And I think when you made apoint earlier about how things
have changed since the 90s, Ithink I think it was Ellen
Burston interview who she saidthat something trying to, I
don't I can't quote it, but Ithink what she was the what I
got from her comment about herobservation in terms of what was
happening was that the creativeelement was being siphoned out,
(52:50):
and it was less influential inthe decision process of making
movies and the motivation behindmaking them.
And it was turning more into amathematical equation, like it
lived in a bank somewhere,right?
Rather than the two workingtogether.
You know, they were trying toremove the creative voice, the
people that sat at the tablethat wanted to take risks and do
(53:12):
things.
The money people would say, nah,nah, nah.
So I think over time what'smaybe happened is that influence
of you know, the moneyinfluence, the banking
influence, and thispreoccupation with how much did
it make this weekend.
I don't people used to talk likethat around me, and I would just
leave the conversation and walkaway.
What's wrong, Robert?
I'm not a banker, man.
(53:32):
I don't you guys are tallying upmovie scores and numbers and
stuff, like you work forParamount, you know, you're in
the in the accountingdepartment.
You guys are just filmmakerstrying to put together your own
independent film, yet you'retalking like the man.
You sound like you sound like aTV commercial, bro.
It scares me.
I can't relate to none of that.
(53:52):
The people that you'reevaluating, the movies you're
evaluating, you know, that sameevaluation, like that saying,
you know, judge not, you knowwhat I mean?
Let's ye be judged with, youknow.
So it's kind of like I saw howcritical some of these young men
were with things that theywatched, and they would measure
it based on commerce, and yetthey tried to get a movie off
(54:14):
the ground and couldn'tunderstand and would go through
hell trying to raise finance toput something together, and
which is respected.
I I can respect any independentfilmmaker, anyone who's trying
to build something from theground up and doesn't have a
whole lot of money, but just isspirited enough to get the right
people involved to produce thething, like you're doing, like a
(54:34):
lot of people I know have done.
And so when people haveconversations like this and they
talk about the corporation likethey're in it, or they sound
like they're a part of it, itfrightens me because to me, some
of those guys in those positionsare your enemy, man.
They're not gonna sanction yourfilm or even look at it or care
when it comes to distributionabout placing it in a proper
(54:56):
platform, because their bottomline is the very thing you guys
are discussing, money.
And last time I looked, Ithought you guys were artists.
I'm not saying you should benaive in terms of uh the physics
of math and all that.
I'm not saying be just an artistand not understand the business
side, but you're evaluatingthings based on numbers rather
than how the entertainmentitself is affecting your heart
(55:19):
and your spirit or inspiring.
You guys don't sound likecreators, you sound like you
work in a bank for a bigcorporation and you guys barely
can rub a few nickels togetherto get your own movie made.
I mean, you hypocrites much.
So I I can't participate toomuch in that kind of that
diatribe or that dialoguebecause it reeks of envy, it
reeks of uh inadequacy, allkinds of things, man.
(55:43):
And um, I didn't get into it forthat.
And so my point is when EllenBurst made that comment about it
changing with someone of thatcaliber and that station of
movie star who's been around foryears, man.
You know, you were talking aboutthe last picture show, you know.
Right, right.
The actress is, you know, greatfilm.
She's been in an, you know, uhAlice doesn't live here anymore,
(56:06):
Martin Scosese, Harvey Cartel.
She's been in some amazingmovie, she's a great and
consummate actress.
I saw her teach at the actors'studio because that was part of
the Working Observer programthere.
Brilliant actress, goodbrilliant actor, right?
And so when you hear people likethis talking along those lines
about how the industry ischanging, and it's like it's not
paranoia anymore, it's justawareness to the changing of the
(56:28):
guard and what the what thepriority is, man.
And so I don't think it's any shit's into any surprise.
Your observation about, yeah,it's weird now how they go about
doing things and what's theirmotivation behind making these
things.
And do they really care?
Are they just trying to turn andburn and flip something over
that's old and seem to make itnew by those who don't know the
(56:52):
history of film, so they cansell something to the public as
if it they, you know, it'soriginal.
In fact, it's just a carbon copyof and a carbon copy of
something that was by farsuperior because the people who
made it loved it.
They weren't in love with themoney, they were in love with
what they were building.
If they could make money, great.
You know, I think it's you canbalance both to be driven by to
(57:15):
lean too much on either pole, Ithink is dangerous.
I think there's a way to kind ofyou know find equanimity within
both of those.
And I think sometimes that getslost when greed enters the room,
and a lot of the time greedenters the room.
SPEAKER_03 (57:30):
I definitely agree.
Yeah, I definitely agree.
And uh, you know, so much somuch on on that subject, it's
like when you have all thesemergers and stuff, you know,
like like Disney buying, youknow, Marvel and Star Wars and
20th Century Fox, you know, andthen you have, you know, like
(57:51):
like just you know, corporatemerging that some sometimes, you
know, like like like you said,you know, creativity kind of
gets lost, and are they tryingto like you know, McDonald's
manual manually manufacturesomething that's you know based
(58:12):
on profits versus artisticoriginality?
And I I think in a lot ofmainstream movies that I mean it
it seems to me that is the case,but yet you still have a lot of
like mainstream stuff that maybedoesn't get the attention that
(58:35):
something like you know StarWars or Indiana Jones number
five, you know, is is gonna get,but it could it could be like
more of you know an indie filmor something you know with a
smaller budget, a horror filmthat that could have you know
you know had something new, anidea that hadn't been done
(58:57):
before.
But I I I agree with you, thereis still a lot of great stuff
out there and coming out.
I just it is for it, man.
SPEAKER_02 (59:06):
I live Sam, I live for it.
So I'm not gonna damn it tohell, man, or be overjudgmental.
You know, why should I?
If a movie entertains me andtakes me out of my head for an
hour and a half or an hour long,hey, mission accomplished.
Thank you, Philmakers.
Exactly.
Everyone involved, thank you somuch.
SPEAKER_03 (59:22):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (59:24):
Right?
I mean, it's not thatcomplicated.
I don't, you know, it's not, Idon't I don't understand the
hate hate part or the uh the thecrit the criticisms, the endless
criticisms.
Right, right.
And I I try not to giveattention to that stuff, I just
look the other way.
I don't there's nothingproductive in that.
SPEAKER_03 (59:44):
So do I, so do I.
I mean, I I don't listen, I I'venever listened to the critics.
I you know, I need to see if I Ineed to see the film for myself.
You know, if if it if it lookedlike something that I wanted to
check out, that means I need toI need to see it for myself and
make my own judgment, you know,and I think you know, a lot of
(01:00:06):
people need to do that with youknow life in general and and
movies and and just not justwith movies, you know, like like
you know, they need to just maketheir own assessment on you know
day-to-day life, you know, orwhatever.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:21):
Agreed.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:29):
What's up, all my fishes in the sea?
Thanks for tuning in to myinterview with Robert Lazardo
and for being a subscriber.
You can tune in next Saturday at11 a.m.
Eastern Time for our conclusioninterview with Robert.
There's a lot of cool stuff westill have in the chat, and
you're definitely not gonna wantto miss that.
You can also subscribe for earlyaccess on my Bud Sprout website.
(01:00:53):
I am also accepting donations onthere from all you kind,
generous guppies in the sea.
I'm also selling custom merchnow, t-shirts, mugs, pens, all
the coolest stuff to make youlook like the fliest fish in the
sea.
You can DM me directly on theInstagram at thefishbowl8,
Facebook just the fishbowl, ordirectly friend request me on
(01:01:17):
Facebook at Sam Fish.
Thank you for your continuedsupport, and if you like that, I
got a lot of cool stuff in theworks this year, so stay hooked
on the fishbowl.
And as always, please subscribe.
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