January 8, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, Savannah shares her experiences with the wonderful ladies of a recent Atlanta girls' weekend. Part of what Savannah discovered was more confidence to simply be herself around others. Beyond that, she realized that oftentimes, and most amazingly, crossdressing as a woman is just only one of many colorful and delightful commonalities that sisters can share. We come for the crossdressing, we stay for the sisterhood.
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SAVANNAH HAUK is the author of “Living with Crossdressing: Defining a New Normal” and “Living with Crossdressing: Discovering your True Identity“. While both focus on the male-to-female (mtf) crossdresser, “Defining a New Normal” delves into crossdressing and relationships and “Discovering Your True Identity” looks at the individual crossdressing journey. Her latest achievements are two TEDx Talks, one entitled "Demystifying the Crossdressing Experience" and the other "13 Milliseconds: First Impressions of Gender Expression". Savannah is a male-to-female dual-gender crossdresser who is visible in the Upstate of South Carolina, active in local groups and advocating as a public speaker at LGBTQ+ conferences and workshops across the United States. At the moment, Savannah is working on more books, blogs, and projects focused on letting every crossdresser–young and mature–find their own confidence, expression, identity and voice.
IG @savannahhauk | FB @savannahhauk | FB @livingwithcrossdressing | web @livingwithcrossdressing.com
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JULIE RUBENSTEIN is a dedicated ally to transgender community and the certified image consultant and co-owner of Fox and Hanger. F&H is a unique service for transgender women and male-to-female crossdressers that creates customized virtual fashion and style “lookbooks”. Julie intuitively connects with each client to find them appropriate clothes, makeup, hair, and shape wear all in alignment with their budget, body type, authentic style and unique personality. Julie also provides enfemme coaching and wardrobe support. Julie has made it her life’s work to help MTF individuals feel safe and confident when it comes to their female persona, expression and identity.
IG @Juliemtfstyle | FB @foxandhanger | web @FoxandHanger.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Well, hello and good morning to
you, Julie Rubenstein. Salutations.
Kudos to you. I don't know, I got.
Nothing. Pip, pip.
Pip pip and Cheerio is. A Yes.
(00:50):
How are you? I mean, we just came off a
massive 200 slash, two O 1 and two O 2 episode of just
milestoning and I was so excitedto record with you to work on
those episodes, put in all the shout outs which were freaking
(01:11):
amazing. Some of them are surprises to
you, some of what were surprisesto me.
And you know, as I said in the show, the shows, the three
shows, I so humbling. It's just so amazing that we can
do what we can do. It truly is, and I needed that
show to ground me and to put back that fire because it was
(01:32):
fire. It's fire whenever we hear from
our listeners. You and I are just talking to
each other, right? But that was a chance to hear
feedback, read feedback, and honor the journey that you and I
have taken in a reflective way that was just so powerful and
needed. Yeah, we did solicit, like, hey,
(01:54):
give us a shout out, we'd love to hear from you.
Give us your comments. So yes, we did go out looking
for comments. We were whores.
We were whores about it. I mean.
Yes, yes. Absolutely.
We are podcasting whores. I'm all for I'm going to get a
T-shirt that says podcast whore T-shirt design.
Go ahead and take it TM. Anybody listening, please feel
(02:15):
free to put that together for yourself.
That being said, the content, what do we say?
We said, hey, give us a shout out or or milestone episode.
Tell us your favorite episode. Beyond that, there were so many
things I was not expecting of what was given.
It's just like my heart like theGrinch during Christmas, just
through 3 sizes that day. Oh, it was like you said, we
(02:37):
have been a hate this for a while and we both needed this I
think in different ways and to come back and and have those
episodes were just a dream for us and for me.
Such a dream. And as we enter upon January,
basically we are in a time whereit is really important for us to
(03:00):
take really good care of ourselves.
As we head into what seems like the scary boogie dogs of the
unknown world where things are going to be changing and our
deer podcasts and our tribe, we're all feeling kind of
afraid, you know? So part of my morning ritual
this morning in preparation for this podcast was to take a
(03:23):
workout class that I've been very much enjoying trying.
Now is the quote where I really am trying to stick the poses and
hydrate throughout the day. Just do all those little things
that I've been just, I mean, I'll be good about it before and
then I'll stop and then I'll getlazy and then all these things.
(03:44):
Maybe it's turning 45 and alive,but I just feel like if not now,
when I feel this need to be extra, extra gentle to myself,
extra kind, drink all that water, almost go above and
beyond because without that, I don't know.
I just don't want to crumble under this administration.
(04:07):
I don't want to be bullied by the loud rhetoric.
I don't want to be shocked by people that are asked to be in
this powerful position. I just want to be like, OK,
resistance. Let's do this.
Let's continue working hard on this podcast.
Let's continue as listeners and as content creators to take that
extra level of care. If we need to rest, and normally
(04:31):
we'd be like, no, we must move rest, dudes and dudes rest.
Yeah, You know, that is fantastic advice and it's
amazing and really timely that you said it the way you said it,
because I follow a lot of peopleand I see a lot of the rhetoric.
I see a lot of the postings on social media.
I see all the comments. So I see it for both sides.
(04:51):
I see the fear of the unknown coupled with, hey, I saw what
happened last time, what may happen this time.
I've seen, hey, can't we all getalong?
It'll be fine. You're overreacting.
The thing that I haven't seen asmuch of which you've hit it on
the head is empathy. I understand we're in a changing
(05:11):
world come January to the inauguration, and it is a new
administration. I am trying to be optimistic and
hopeful that things will not be as dire as some claim it will
be. And also self-care, care for
each other. I think it's going to be super
important. This is not the time to lash
(05:32):
out. It's the time to find our tribe
even more so and rely on ourselves and each other to like
you said, be the resistance. Could be that change that we
want to see because the change happens all the time.
Just because we may feel or somepeople may feel object terror in
what may happen. And again, there's rhetoric,
(05:54):
there's misinformation, there's extremism on both sides.
What we need to find is that wayto come together in a way that's
going to be positive for everybody involved.
While I may not agree with everybody's viewpoint, I do hope
that we all can have some empathy for each other and the
other side and just be human beings and not be hey, look, our
(06:15):
guy won or hey, Our Lady didn't win.
Let's just be empathetic to the human condition and not be so
wrapped up and all the other things that may or may not come
to pass. And we'll just take it one, one
day at a time, one step at a time.
Like you said, I'm going to be trying and get the poses right.
And I think that is an analogy for we can just get our own
(06:38):
poses right and do the best for ourselves.
And I realized that if I hit that pose too hard or go too
deep, go my lowest. I'm talking about the bar method
where there's ballet like poses.But if I hit that squat too too
much or I come down a little bittoo intense, like I have a thing
about hitting it really hard andthen you can't maintain that.
(06:59):
I can't maintain it for let's say a 20 count or whatever it
is. So that's a good metaphor.
That's a good way to look at life that if we hit it too hard,
we'll get burnt out. If we spend too much time on
social media, we'll get burnt out if we maybe take a scoop of
the fraction that we spend on our phone back to ourselves and
really get back to basics with yourself and say, what do I
(07:21):
love? What music do I love?
Just build yourself that love bank so that you can come
together as a community, which Iknow we're going to get into
spoiler in a couple seconds. But really fill yourself up with
all the joy and love you can outside politics, outside your
(07:41):
fear, and just take really good care of yourself, whatever that
means to each individual that's here with us today.
Agreed, agreed, Absolutely agreed.
And yes, one more thing I want to say is how you're talking
about drinking a lot of water oralmost too much water.
I have been doing a lot of self-care.
I get my facials, I get my waxing, I get my massages.
I had my massage yesterday. It was a new masseuse.
(08:03):
She was much more gentle than some of the previous ones who
are really deep tissue technicians.
And still today I came up with Ishould have drinking more water.
My whole body is just massages are bad for you and that's not
for the PSA I'm trying to speculate on.
It's just that I need it and yetmy body is that was like too
much. So yes, also moderation very,
(08:26):
very important and we will go from there.
So anyway, today's topic is an open discussion I want to have
with you because obviously you're deep in the community.
I'm deep in the community. We're both coming out from
different ends. And just to set the framing of
it, I was in Atlanta for a hot Atlanta Haw.
Like almost like a hot tube girl.
(08:47):
HHW Atlanta weekend with a bunchof my sisters and I'm going to
give them some shout out. So we have Olive and Daddy.
We have Mia, Ginger, Megan, Penny, Akasha, Scarlett, Millie,
Diane, Roxy and some other people I didn't get to meet.
These are all people either I'veknown because I intervened with
(09:09):
them or I've known them from social media, or I've never met
them and they were just fans of the show that I finally met them
in person. The thing I want to talk about
today that I think would be super, super interesting and
I've had it running through my head a lot over the last couple
years, is when you have a group of people with one common
(09:30):
element. And in this case, we are all
male to female cross dressing people and or an Esso of a cross
dressing person. And sometimes you engage with
these people on social media andreally the only commonality you
have is your dressing is your gender diversity.
And then on the flip side of that, you have people where you
have so much more rich intentionwith that person than just your
(09:54):
cross dressing. Cross dressing brought you
together. I came for the cross dressing.
I stayed for this sisterhood. Yes, yes, yeah.
I love that. So like, I really saw it in
motion in person that weekend because I don't spend a lot of
time in real life engaging a lotof people outside of
conferences. And that's its own dynamic.
(10:15):
So it's not as easy to share yourself with a group of people
because there's so many things going on while you still can.
And in this case, it was just a quiet weekend.
We went out to dinner, went to lunch, we went like shopping,
went to Target, We just hung outtill all hours.
It's just so lovely to be with people in this kind of community
bubble. It's not like we didn't know the
(10:36):
outside role was happening, but we're just enjoying the company
of our sisters. Yeah, there's something really
powerful and healing, so healing, so powerful when
friends who can be their authentic self together just
come together and do things thatare almost normal, if that makes
sense. Go to a restaurant, walk down
(10:58):
the street, dance if you want todance, you know, normalcy with
that extra bit of magic of that whole let's go clubbing or
whatever it is. The atmosphere creates a really
potent concoction of energy, if you will, that is just so
loving. That's the highest of the highs.
And I know for you the word struggle doesn't feel right at
(11:20):
this point, but I know that you've had lots of feelings when
it comes to figuring out how to enter a group of dynamic cross
dressing, dual gender transgender women who have been
following you for a while, who may have some expectation about
who you are when it comes to your celebrity, if you will.
Or you felt the need to posture in a certain way.
(11:44):
And I feel like since this is what your second girls thought
trip, that is really allowed you.
And please share with us if I'm misinformed because I'm just
assuming. It seems to me this trip, the
first trip was you figuring out how to let go.
And then this trip symbolized a true meet as friends that almost
(12:07):
in the sense of, I was about to say colleagues, but that doesn't
feel right. But something when you're all on
equal playing field and you justfeel good and no one's higher
level than the other, no one's there to expect anything beyond
just showing up and being yourself.
And if you're tired, you're yawn.
(12:27):
If you want to push your stomachout because you're full of you,
push your freaking stomach out and you're just able to be
totally wherever you're at and totally accepted.
Yeah, you are right. The Try Pride prom that I went
to earlier in the year 2024, I did have a lot of anxiety about
(12:48):
it. I did not know how to act, so to
speak. Yeah, it was understanding how
to let go. Or when I got there, Olive came
out and I have my luggage or walking up and just, hey, do
whatever you want to do, just beyou.
And that gave me the allowance to be like, oh, OK, I don't have
to be Sabanified 24/7. I don't have to put on errors.
(13:10):
I don't have to be, quote UN quote on for everybody at every
moment. And that weekend was very much a
letting go of expectation of letting go of to be a certain
way. If I want withdrawal to the
bedroom for a minute, I could. If I want to hang out on a
balcony by myself, I could. If I want to chill and hang out
with whoever was sitting wherever I could.
(13:32):
And this time, going to Atlanta with that knowledge, it did
allow me to just show up. Nobody was there when I got
there. Everybody had gone out to dinner
and they said, hey, you'll get some for yourself on the way
because we're going to be heading out.
Am I awesome? So I got there, coded myself
into the Airbnb. Nobody's there.
I went to every bedroom and all you saw was dresses and open
(13:55):
makeup cases. I'm like, well, I guess I'm not
in this room. Oh, I guess I'm not in that
room. Guess I'm not there.
And eventually there was one beduntouched that I'm like, well, I
guess that's where I'm staying. It was everybody got there and
came back. I wasn't dressed as Savannah.
It was just me. It's Chuck.
And everybody rolled back in andI don't even know if I dress at
all that first night on Friday night, just hung out by the fire
(14:15):
pit with everybody. And just getting to know people
I never met and hearing their stories and sharing my story.
And obviously it's a little different because we've shared
so much of our story over tons of episodes.
So you're not really sure who knows what, when and where.
Why, right? But just like talking about I
don't want to say normal things because that same so trite non
(14:36):
cross dressing things like we'resitting there gender diverse,
just shooting the shit, having a.
Good time. Just like enjoying each other
the companies beyond that singular commonality of cross
dressing. That's amazing thing it was.
I'm so happy for you. Thank you.
And it is one of those things where I think we all know this.
(14:57):
We go to work, we put on a mask,we act.
We have to act very professional.
We go out to a party and we put on a mask and we have to feel we
have to act a certain way in public company.
But the more intimate it is, theless expectation, the less
obligation, the less masking we have to do or should do.
(15:17):
Because again, we're always going to put on errors depending
on where you are. Like if I'm at the conference
and somebody comes up to me, I should interact with that person
because they came to see me. So therefore I think it's super,
super important to be there for them in that moment.
So I'm never going to turn that down.
It's a public space. It's a conference.
People are there for specific reason.
That said, when you're just going to an Airbnb on the
(15:39):
weekend and you're like, let's all just have a good time and
hang out and do whatever, then it's it's a whole different
vibe. And I really enjoyed getting to
know people I hadn't met. Ginger, Scarlett, Roxy, Akasha,
Mia, these are people I've nevermet or even knew that much
about, but meeting them and being around the table in the
(16:00):
dining room, listen to them talkabout cars or I had this job and
now I'm doing this. I just was.
It was amazing to just listen and be a part of people's
storytelling just because we're here to do that and enjoy each
other company. Yeah.
And isn't it nice that you are all beyond the kind of newbie
stage in your outward feminine expression That no one in the
(16:24):
group felt any type of way that I'm getting like nervous to be
out? Actually, I want to say, Oh my
goodness, I don't remember and Iapologize, but it was either
Ginger or Mia, and I think Akasha too, because when we went
out Saturday night to X, they had never been out in a public
(16:44):
space before. I think somebody had been to, I
think Akasha had done some drag show type of thing, but not like
just out and about in downtown midtown Atlanta.
So there was a lot of first timing.
Yeah, so, but like. You said it didn't.
Feel that way. Nobody was in there going.
I don't know what to do next because we're all there just in
mass doing our thing, having a good time.
(17:05):
I think when you're with your tribe and you're out in force
like that, nothing feels scary and maybe inside, but it's just
so confident building to to do it.
Exactly. Well, shout out to those people
that this was their first time and shout out to all of the
listeners that are pushing past the 1st in their life and
thinking of the seconds and the thirds.
(17:27):
We we honor and we celebrate you.
That's so fabulous. I'm so happy.
Yeah, And even last time I went to try prod, I think it was
Danny's first time out in publicwhen she was with us in
Tennessee. So even that there's all these
people like hitting the ground running in a way that I can't
even fathom. My first time was so scary
(17:47):
because it was just me and a couple 10 mothers, but it wasn't
me and 10 other cross dressing Divas showing up and being all
that. I commend all the people in this
day and age that are doing theirfirst times but with a Tour de
force of people behind them. And want to know what's kind of
bullshit, what I feel like an outsider looking in and at 45
(18:10):
and alive enough enough. That's what like I want to be a
part of it. I want to be I want to go with
you. I want to do that.
I want to be a member. I want to go to Keystone.
I want to do all these things. I just for whatever reason, I
haven't been able to now you as one of my best friends can look
(18:31):
across me and be like this has been going on and this has been
going on, but to which I say enough.
I am ready universe to have my first Keystone.
I am. Do I need someone to organize me
financially and say this is how much money you need to manifest?
Yes. Am I pointing at you?
Maybe. OK, maybe.
(18:52):
I can't financially help you. Obviously.
I mean, just do crunch some numbers crunch.
Some numbers. Hey Speaking of witch,
ironically I just put in my workshop submission today for
Keystone. Good for you.
I'll be a guest in the audience,and if I come, I'll surprise
you. And will you like, raise up
slowly toward the end and give me a soul golfer's clap?
(19:14):
I may be wearing a wig and giantJackie O glasses and just
emerge. I thought about this and then I
thought about how mad the logical Larry Taurus or Laura
Taurus in you. That's like, damn it, you come
and you didn't tell me. And we could have done this
awesome presentation. But then I thought, no, at least
(19:35):
I'm here and they will be satisfied.
Not only satisfied, overjoyed. And actually you, I know this
was going off the roads a littlebit.
If you were to surprise me like that, or if you were able to
make that kind of appearance or whatever, that's amazing enough
because I understand that this is a process.
You don't just jump in like, I went from nothing to everything.
(19:56):
Hey, it's a process. I remember first time going, it
was scary. I didn't know what to expect.
I didn't know what my conferenceworkshop would look like.
Yeah. And it's always in hindsight
that you're like, oh, OK, I see what I can do for next time.
So absolutely, if you want to Jackie O that with a slow
golfer's clap and then just takeyour Bola and swing it over your
(20:18):
shoulder and be like, I'm out ofhere and then leave me like, who
was that? That would be pretty, pretty
epic. Who was that woman?
I think that was Julie Rubenstein.
Julie Rubenstein. So yeah, anyway, back to point I
feel, and I think the point the conversation was that we are not
(20:39):
just a bunch of crossdressers that have only that is our
commonality. There is a richer deeper
tapestry of commonalities or overlapping interests or just
appreciation for each other. And the only difference is
instead of it being the love of the New York Giants or the love
(21:00):
of cosplay or the love of tech stuff or pickleball, whatever
they think that brought you together, there's always going
to be that group of people that go beyond that as what brings
them together. And I think I found that
actually, you know what I know Ifound that and some lovely
individuals. And it's everything, just like
(21:23):
you and I. You and I would have never met
had not been through Jennifer sometimes and being on the show
and being in the community, but completely on opposite sides
where he probably would never have come together on our own.
And here we are, years later, crushing it.
I know. All right.
Wait. Just to circle back to something
(21:43):
you've just recently said. You mean to tell me that you're
not just cross dresses? That you're actual human beings
that have interests, feelings, aheartbeat, a nose and two eyes
and a mouth. Holy shit.
I'm not an animal. Yes, it's true.
(22:06):
You've you've nailed it. We are.
Rumors are OK and now I can retire because I've been
thinking something. Just kidding.
Well, I'm so happy that you're so happy.
And it just speaks to the overarching theme that it is our
job to find our own joy and happiness in our lives.
(22:30):
You know, we put a lot of focus on the work that we can do by
ourselves and internally. And that being said, community
and friendship is really important because how lonely and
how limited would you be if you spent all the time with just
your own perspective, just your own thoughts, just your own self
(22:54):
discovery? I mean, it's self discovery
comes from people, places and things of inspiration.
And then applying those connections and figuring out,
OK, that was a an idea or that was, I know how I feel about
this core value because I was communicating with someone that
came from a totally different place.
And I respect that place, but that doesn't ring true to me or,
(23:16):
wow, what that person said may not be my story, but I can
relate. But wait, that means that the
other thing that I thought isn'ttrue.
So we need people, we need connection.
We're built for connection. We're hardwired for this stuff.
And so being vulnerable is the only way that we can have
(23:38):
connection. The cross dressing community
pretty much leads with that vulnerability already.
So already there are many different themes within the
cross dressing narrative. That means that you've been
through some shit. It's like on a totally different
way, but understandable. If you see a natural redhead
walking down the street and makeeyes with another natural
(24:00):
redhead, we can tell you've gonethrough some shit, you know, and
that confidence coming from you,you had to work through it.
It's, it's just with the cross dressing narrative.
Like I said, there's the shame factor.
There's the factor of your name.Tell me about your name and how
you came up with it. There's where you are now versus
where you want to be versus the Rolodex of different episodes
(24:23):
that we've had on this podcast are themes because they are
something that most cross dressing individuals can relate
to. And that's why we're 200 plus at
this point. And so when you can just have
that heart to heart discussion with someone and say, I see you,
I see you, and then you can add a couple more people for an
(24:45):
overall group vibe and that sense of community that is
source, that is love, that is that radiation of love and power
that you can't get from a solo practice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that that kind of community
does not get built in isolation.Absolutely.
Man, I was just, like hanging out every word.
(25:07):
It was just dripping with like wisdom and amazingness.
And it is also true. All so true.
You're very kind to me. You are 45 and alive and filled
with the wisdom and in the pocket doing all the things and
that. And you, my dear you, you what
is out there in the world, and you're making friends.
(25:29):
You're making friends. I couldn't be happier for you,
you know. Thank you.
I appreciate. It Yeah.
It's nice to have friends. Let me tell.
You about my best. So with that, from one best
friend to another best friend, thank you so much for just
(25:51):
chatting with me about the things I'm learning and the
people I'm meeting. Because I love you.
A Bush lands a pack, a Bush lands a pack and a hug around
the neck, a hug around the neck and a wait.
I don't see perimenopause, it just drops out of my back in
memory. I was Adelaide in high school.
(26:12):
OK I will do that multiple timesa day where I begin a sentence
and then it just fades out. Apparently I lost the tune to
the most epic role of my life. Anywho, goodbye now.
Until. Next time.
(26:33):
Oh great, I forgot it. What was it?
No, you did right. Oh, let me just do that again.
A 5678 do do, do, do do do do dodo do do do do do do.
Bye for now. Until next time.
Nice. No, you're nice.
(26:55):
Stop it, you are. Don't you fucking love you
bitch? Oh man.
Love you too without the. Profanity.
Bye. You can find me on Facebook at
(27:16):
Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram
at Savannah Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK and to
learn more, go to my website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hanger
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhanger.com. Julie, it's your moment.
(27:42):
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Copyright 2024. Yes, nailed it.
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(28:02):
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Fox and the Phoenix Podcast under Score.
You're listening to the Fox in aPhoenix podcast, understanding
the feminine cross dressing experience.
I'm Savannah Hawk, dual gender male to female cross dresser,
LGBTQ plus advocate, TEDx speaker, and author of the
Living with Cross Dressing book series.
And I'm Julie Rubenstein, proud ally and Co founder of Fox and
(00:30):
hanger.com, a feminine styling and life coaching service for
crossdressers and transgender women.
Hi, Savannah. Well, hello and good morning to
you, Julie Rubenstein. Salutations.
Kudos to you. I don't know, I got.
Nothing. Pip, pip.
Pip pip and Cheerio is. A Yes.
(00:50):
How are you? I mean, we just came off a
massive 200 slash, two O 1 and two O 2 episode of just
milestoning and I was so excitedto record with you to work on
those episodes, put in all the shout outs which were freaking
(01:11):
amazing. Some of them are surprises to
you, some of what were surprisesto me.
And you know, as I said in the show, the shows, the three
shows, I so humbling. It's just so amazing that we can
do what we can do. It truly is, and I needed that
show to ground me and to put back that fire because it was
(01:32):
fire. It's fire whenever we hear from
our listeners. You and I are just talking to
each other, right? But that was a chance to hear
feedback, read feedback, and honor the journey that you and I
have taken in a reflective way that was just so powerful and
needed. Yeah, we did solicit, like, hey,
(01:54):
give us a shout out, we'd love to hear from you.
Give us your comments. So yes, we did go out looking
for comments. We were whores.
We were whores about it. I mean.
Yes, yes. Absolutely.
We are podcasting whores. I'm all for I'm going to get a
T-shirt that says podcast whore T-shirt design.
Go ahead and take it TM. Anybody listening, please feel
(02:15):
free to put that together for yourself.
That being said, the content, what do we say?
We said, hey, give us a shout out or or milestone episode.
Tell us your favorite episode. Beyond that, there were so many
things I was not expecting of what was given.
It's just like my heart like theGrinch during Christmas, just
through 3 sizes that day. Oh, it was like you said, we
(02:37):
have been a hate this for a while and we both needed this I
think in different ways and to come back and and have those
episodes were just a dream for us and for me.
Such a dream. And as we enter upon January,
basically we are in a time whereit is really important for us to
(03:00):
take really good care of ourselves.
As we head into what seems like the scary boogie dogs of the
unknown world where things are going to be changing and our
deer podcasts and our tribe, we're all feeling kind of
afraid, you know? So part of my morning ritual
this morning in preparation for this podcast was to take a
(03:23):
workout class that I've been very much enjoying trying.
Now is the quote where I really am trying to stick the poses and
hydrate throughout the day. Just do all those little things
that I've been just, I mean, I'll be good about it before and
then I'll stop and then I'll getlazy and then all these things.
(03:44):
Maybe it's turning 45 and alive,but I just feel like if not now,
when I feel this need to be extra, extra gentle to myself,
extra kind, drink all that water, almost go above and
beyond because without that, I don't know.
I just don't want to crumble under this administration.
(04:07):
I don't want to be bullied by the loud rhetoric.
I don't want to be shocked by people that are asked to be in
this powerful position. I just want to be like, OK,
resistance. Let's do this.
Let's continue working hard on this podcast.
Let's continue as listeners and as content creators to take that
extra level of care. If we need to rest, and normally
(04:31):
we'd be like, no, we must move rest, dudes and dudes rest.
Yeah, You know, that is fantastic advice and it's
amazing and really timely that you said it the way you said it,
because I follow a lot of peopleand I see a lot of the rhetoric.
I see a lot of the postings on social media.
I see all the comments. So I see it for both sides.
(04:51):
I see the fear of the unknown coupled with, hey, I saw what
happened last time, what may happen this time.
I've seen, hey, can't we all getalong?
It'll be fine. You're overreacting.
The thing that I haven't seen asmuch of which you've hit it on
the head is empathy. I understand we're in a changing
(05:11):
world come January to the inauguration, and it is a new
administration. I am trying to be optimistic and
hopeful that things will not be as dire as some claim it will
be. And also self-care, care for
each other. I think it's going to be super
important. This is not the time to lash
(05:32):
out. It's the time to find our tribe
even more so and rely on ourselves and each other to like
you said, be the resistance. Could be that change that we
want to see because the change happens all the time.
Just because we may feel or somepeople may feel object terror in
what may happen. And again, there's rhetoric,
(05:54):
there's misinformation, there's extremism on both sides.
What we need to find is that wayto come together in a way that's
going to be positive for everybody involved.
While I may not agree with everybody's viewpoint, I do hope
that we all can have some empathy for each other and the
other side and just be human beings and not be hey, look, our
(06:15):
guy won or hey, Our Lady didn't win.
Let's just be empathetic to the human condition and not be so
wrapped up and all the other things that may or may not come
to pass. And we'll just take it one, one
day at a time, one step at a time.
Like you said, I'm going to be trying and get the poses right.
And I think that is an analogy for we can just get our own
(06:38):
poses right and do the best for ourselves.
And I realized that if I hit that pose too hard or go too
deep, go my lowest. I'm talking about the bar method
where there's ballet like poses.But if I hit that squat too too
much or I come down a little bittoo intense, like I have a thing
about hitting it really hard andthen you can't maintain that.
(06:59):
I can't maintain it for let's say a 20 count or whatever it
is. So that's a good metaphor.
That's a good way to look at life that if we hit it too hard,
we'll get burnt out. If we spend too much time on
social media, we'll get burnt out if we maybe take a scoop of
the fraction that we spend on our phone back to ourselves and
really get back to basics with yourself and say, what do I
(07:21):
love? What music do I love?
Just build yourself that love bank so that you can come
together as a community, which Iknow we're going to get into
spoiler in a couple seconds. But really fill yourself up with
all the joy and love you can outside politics, outside your
(07:41):
fear, and just take really good care of yourself, whatever that
means to each individual that's here with us today.
Agreed, agreed, Absolutely agreed.
And yes, one more thing I want to say is how you're talking
about drinking a lot of water oralmost too much water.
I have been doing a lot of self-care.
I get my facials, I get my waxing, I get my massages.
I had my massage yesterday. It was a new masseuse.
(08:03):
She was much more gentle than some of the previous ones who
are really deep tissue technicians.
And still today I came up with Ishould have drinking more water.
My whole body is just massages are bad for you and that's not
for the PSA I'm trying to speculate on.
It's just that I need it and yetmy body is that was like too
much. So yes, also moderation very,
(08:26):
very important and we will go from there.
So anyway, today's topic is an open discussion I want to have
with you because obviously you're deep in the community.
I'm deep in the community. We're both coming out from
different ends. And just to set the framing of
it, I was in Atlanta for a hot Atlanta Haw.
Like almost like a hot tube girl.
(08:47):
HHW Atlanta weekend with a bunchof my sisters and I'm going to
give them some shout out. So we have Olive and Daddy.
We have Mia, Ginger, Megan, Penny, Akasha, Scarlett, Millie,
Diane, Roxy and some other people I didn't get to meet.
These are all people either I'veknown because I intervened with
(09:09):
them or I've known them from social media, or I've never met
them and they were just fans of the show that I finally met them
in person. The thing I want to talk about
today that I think would be super, super interesting and
I've had it running through my head a lot over the last couple
years, is when you have a group of people with one common
(09:30):
element. And in this case, we are all
male to female cross dressing people and or an Esso of a cross
dressing person. And sometimes you engage with
these people on social media andreally the only commonality you
have is your dressing is your gender diversity.
And then on the flip side of that, you have people where you
have so much more rich intentionwith that person than just your
(09:54):
cross dressing. Cross dressing brought you
together. I came for the cross dressing.
I stayed for this sisterhood. Yes, yes, yeah.
I love that. So like, I really saw it in
motion in person that weekend because I don't spend a lot of
time in real life engaging a lotof people outside of
conferences. And that's its own dynamic.
(10:15):
So it's not as easy to share yourself with a group of people
because there's so many things going on while you still can.
And in this case, it was just a quiet weekend.
We went out to dinner, went to lunch, we went like shopping,
went to Target, We just hung outtill all hours.
It's just so lovely to be with people in this kind of community
bubble. It's not like we didn't know the
(10:36):
outside role was happening, but we're just enjoying the company
of our sisters. Yeah, there's something really
powerful and healing, so healing, so powerful when
friends who can be their authentic self together just
come together and do things thatare almost normal, if that makes
sense. Go to a restaurant, walk down
(10:58):
the street, dance if you want todance, you know, normalcy with
that extra bit of magic of that whole let's go clubbing or
whatever it is. The atmosphere creates a really
potent concoction of energy, if you will, that is just so
loving. That's the highest of the highs.
And I know for you the word struggle doesn't feel right at
(11:20):
this point, but I know that you've had lots of feelings when
it comes to figuring out how to enter a group of dynamic cross
dressing, dual gender transgender women who have been
following you for a while, who may have some expectation about
who you are when it comes to your celebrity, if you will.
Or you felt the need to posture in a certain way.
(11:44):
And I feel like since this is what your second girls thought
trip, that is really allowed you.
And please share with us if I'm misinformed because I'm just
assuming. It seems to me this trip, the
first trip was you figuring out how to let go.
And then this trip symbolized a true meet as friends that almost
(12:07):
in the sense of, I was about to say colleagues, but that doesn't
feel right. But something when you're all on
equal playing field and you justfeel good and no one's higher
level than the other, no one's there to expect anything beyond
just showing up and being yourself.
And if you're tired, you're yawn.
(12:27):
If you want to push your stomachout because you're full of you,
push your freaking stomach out and you're just able to be
totally wherever you're at and totally accepted.
Yeah, you are right. The Try Pride prom that I went
to earlier in the year 2024, I did have a lot of anxiety about
(12:48):
it. I did not know how to act, so to
speak. Yeah, it was understanding how
to let go. Or when I got there, Olive came
out and I have my luggage or walking up and just, hey, do
whatever you want to do, just beyou.
And that gave me the allowance to be like, oh, OK, I don't have
to be Sabanified 24/7. I don't have to put on errors.
(13:10):
I don't have to be, quote UN quote on for everybody at every
moment. And that weekend was very much a
letting go of expectation of letting go of to be a certain
way. If I want withdrawal to the
bedroom for a minute, I could. If I want to hang out on a
balcony by myself, I could. If I want to chill and hang out
with whoever was sitting wherever I could.
(13:32):
And this time, going to Atlanta with that knowledge, it did
allow me to just show up. Nobody was there when I got
there. Everybody had gone out to dinner
and they said, hey, you'll get some for yourself on the way
because we're going to be heading out.
Am I awesome? So I got there, coded myself
into the Airbnb. Nobody's there.
I went to every bedroom and all you saw was dresses and open
(13:55):
makeup cases. I'm like, well, I guess I'm not
in this room. Oh, I guess I'm not in that
room. Guess I'm not there.
And eventually there was one beduntouched that I'm like, well, I
guess that's where I'm staying. It was everybody got there and
came back. I wasn't dressed as Savannah.
It was just me. It's Chuck.
And everybody rolled back in andI don't even know if I dress at
all that first night on Friday night, just hung out by the fire
(14:15):
pit with everybody. And just getting to know people
I never met and hearing their stories and sharing my story.
And obviously it's a little different because we've shared
so much of our story over tons of episodes.
So you're not really sure who knows what, when and where.
Why, right? But just like talking about I
don't want to say normal things because that same so trite non
(14:36):
cross dressing things like we'resitting there gender diverse,
just shooting the shit, having a.
Good time. Just like enjoying each other
the companies beyond that singular commonality of cross
dressing. That's amazing thing it was.
I'm so happy for you. Thank you.
And it is one of those things where I think we all know this.
(14:57):
We go to work, we put on a mask,we act.
We have to act very professional.
We go out to a party and we put on a mask and we have to feel we
have to act a certain way in public company.
But the more intimate it is, theless expectation, the less
obligation, the less masking we have to do or should do.
(15:17):
Because again, we're always going to put on errors depending
on where you are. Like if I'm at the conference
and somebody comes up to me, I should interact with that person
because they came to see me. So therefore I think it's super,
super important to be there for them in that moment.
So I'm never going to turn that down.
It's a public space. It's a conference.
People are there for specific reason.
That said, when you're just going to an Airbnb on the
(15:39):
weekend and you're like, let's all just have a good time and
hang out and do whatever, then it's it's a whole different
vibe. And I really enjoyed getting to
know people I hadn't met. Ginger, Scarlett, Roxy, Akasha,
Mia, these are people I've nevermet or even knew that much
about, but meeting them and being around the table in the
(16:00):
dining room, listen to them talkabout cars or I had this job and
now I'm doing this. I just was.
It was amazing to just listen and be a part of people's
storytelling just because we're here to do that and enjoy each
other company. Yeah.
And isn't it nice that you are all beyond the kind of newbie
stage in your outward feminine expression That no one in the
(16:24):
group felt any type of way that I'm getting like nervous to be
out? Actually, I want to say, Oh my
goodness, I don't remember and Iapologize, but it was either
Ginger or Mia, and I think Akasha too, because when we went
out Saturday night to X, they had never been out in a public
(16:44):
space before. I think somebody had been to, I
think Akasha had done some drag show type of thing, but not like
just out and about in downtown midtown Atlanta.
So there was a lot of first timing.
Yeah, so, but like. You said it didn't.
Feel that way. Nobody was in there going.
I don't know what to do next because we're all there just in
mass doing our thing, having a good time.
(17:05):
I think when you're with your tribe and you're out in force
like that, nothing feels scary and maybe inside, but it's just
so confident building to to do it.
Exactly. Well, shout out to those people
that this was their first time and shout out to all of the
listeners that are pushing past the 1st in their life and
thinking of the seconds and the thirds.
(17:27):
We we honor and we celebrate you.
That's so fabulous. I'm so happy.
Yeah, And even last time I went to try prod, I think it was
Danny's first time out in publicwhen she was with us in
Tennessee. So even that there's all these
people like hitting the ground running in a way that I can't
even fathom. My first time was so scary
(17:47):
because it was just me and a couple 10 mothers, but it wasn't
me and 10 other cross dressing Divas showing up and being all
that. I commend all the people in this
day and age that are doing theirfirst times but with a Tour de
force of people behind them. And want to know what's kind of
bullshit, what I feel like an outsider looking in and at 45
(18:10):
and alive enough enough. That's what like I want to be a
part of it. I want to be I want to go with
you. I want to do that.
I want to be a member. I want to go to Keystone.
I want to do all these things. I just for whatever reason, I
haven't been able to now you as one of my best friends can look
(18:31):
across me and be like this has been going on and this has been
going on, but to which I say enough.
I am ready universe to have my first Keystone.
I am. Do I need someone to organize me
financially and say this is how much money you need to manifest?
Yes. Am I pointing at you?
Maybe. OK, maybe.
(18:52):
I can't financially help you. Obviously.
I mean, just do crunch some numbers crunch.
Some numbers. Hey Speaking of witch,
ironically I just put in my workshop submission today for
Keystone. Good for you.
I'll be a guest in the audience,and if I come, I'll surprise
you. And will you like, raise up
slowly toward the end and give me a soul golfer's clap?
(19:14):
I may be wearing a wig and giantJackie O glasses and just
emerge. I thought about this and then I
thought about how mad the logical Larry Taurus or Laura
Taurus in you. That's like, damn it, you come
and you didn't tell me. And we could have done this
awesome presentation. But then I thought, no, at least
(19:35):
I'm here and they will be satisfied.
Not only satisfied, overjoyed. And actually you, I know this
was going off the roads a littlebit.
If you were to surprise me like that, or if you were able to
make that kind of appearance or whatever, that's amazing enough
because I understand that this is a process.
You don't just jump in like, I went from nothing to everything.
(19:56):
Hey, it's a process. I remember first time going, it
was scary. I didn't know what to expect.
I didn't know what my conferenceworkshop would look like.
Yeah. And it's always in hindsight
that you're like, oh, OK, I see what I can do for next time.
So absolutely, if you want to Jackie O that with a slow
golfer's clap and then just takeyour Bola and swing it over your
(20:18):
shoulder and be like, I'm out ofhere and then leave me like, who
was that? That would be pretty, pretty
epic. Who was that woman?
I think that was Julie Rubenstein.
Julie Rubenstein. So yeah, anyway, back to point I
feel, and I think the point the conversation was that we are not
(20:39):
just a bunch of crossdressers that have only that is our
commonality. There is a richer deeper
tapestry of commonalities or overlapping interests or just
appreciation for each other. And the only difference is
instead of it being the love of the New York Giants or the love
(21:00):
of cosplay or the love of tech stuff or pickleball, whatever
they think that brought you together, there's always going
to be that group of people that go beyond that as what brings
them together. And I think I found that
actually, you know what I know Ifound that and some lovely
individuals. And it's everything, just like
(21:23):
you and I. You and I would have never met
had not been through Jennifer sometimes and being on the show
and being in the community, but completely on opposite sides
where he probably would never have come together on our own.
And here we are, years later, crushing it.
I know. All right.
Wait. Just to circle back to something
(21:43):
you've just recently said. You mean to tell me that you're
not just cross dresses? That you're actual human beings
that have interests, feelings, aheartbeat, a nose and two eyes
and a mouth. Holy shit.
I'm not an animal. Yes, it's true.
(22:06):
You've you've nailed it. We are.
Rumors are OK and now I can retire because I've been
thinking something. Just kidding.
Well, I'm so happy that you're so happy.
And it just speaks to the overarching theme that it is our
job to find our own joy and happiness in our lives.
(22:30):
You know, we put a lot of focus on the work that we can do by
ourselves and internally. And that being said, community
and friendship is really important because how lonely and
how limited would you be if you spent all the time with just
your own perspective, just your own thoughts, just your own self
(22:54):
discovery? I mean, it's self discovery
comes from people, places and things of inspiration.
And then applying those connections and figuring out,
OK, that was a an idea or that was, I know how I feel about
this core value because I was communicating with someone that
came from a totally different place.
And I respect that place, but that doesn't ring true to me or,
(23:16):
wow, what that person said may not be my story, but I can
relate. But wait, that means that the
other thing that I thought isn'ttrue.
So we need people, we need connection.
We're built for connection. We're hardwired for this stuff.
And so being vulnerable is the only way that we can have
(23:38):
connection. The cross dressing community
pretty much leads with that vulnerability already.
So already there are many different themes within the
cross dressing narrative. That means that you've been
through some shit. It's like on a totally different
way, but understandable. If you see a natural redhead
walking down the street and makeeyes with another natural
(24:00):
redhead, we can tell you've gonethrough some shit, you know, and
that confidence coming from you,you had to work through it.
It's, it's just with the cross dressing narrative.
Like I said, there's the shame factor.
There's the factor of your name.Tell me about your name and how
you came up with it. There's where you are now versus
where you want to be versus the Rolodex of different episodes
(24:23):
that we've had on this podcast are themes because they are
something that most cross dressing individuals can relate
to. And that's why we're 200 plus at
this point. And so when you can just have
that heart to heart discussion with someone and say, I see you,
I see you, and then you can add a couple more people for an
(24:45):
overall group vibe and that sense of community that is
source, that is love, that is that radiation of love and power
that you can't get from a solo practice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that that kind of community
does not get built in isolation.Absolutely.
Man, I was just, like hanging out every word.
(25:07):
It was just dripping with like wisdom and amazingness.
And it is also true. All so true.
You're very kind to me. You are 45 and alive and filled
with the wisdom and in the pocket doing all the things and
that. And you, my dear you, you what
is out there in the world, and you're making friends.
(25:29):
You're making friends. I couldn't be happier for you,
you know. Thank you.
I appreciate. It Yeah.
It's nice to have friends. Let me tell.
You about my best. So with that, from one best
friend to another best friend, thank you so much for just
(25:51):
chatting with me about the things I'm learning and the
people I'm meeting. Because I love you.
A Bush lands a pack, a Bush lands a pack and a hug around
the neck, a hug around the neck and a wait.
I don't see perimenopause, it just drops out of my back in
memory. I was Adelaide in high school.
(26:12):
OK I will do that multiple timesa day where I begin a sentence
and then it just fades out. Apparently I lost the tune to
the most epic role of my life. Anywho, goodbye now.
Until. Next time.
(26:33):
Oh great, I forgot it. What was it?
No, you did right. Oh, let me just do that again.
A 5678 do do, do, do do do do dodo do do do do do do.
Bye for now. Until next time.
Nice. No, you're nice.
(26:55):
Stop it, you are. Don't you fucking love you
bitch? Oh man.
Love you too without the. Profanity.
Bye. You can find me on Facebook at
(27:16):
Savannah Hawk or at Living with Cross Dressing and on Instagram
at Savannah Hawk. Remember, that's HAUK and to
learn more, go to my website livingwithcrossdressing.com.
And you can find me on Instagramand Facebook at Fox and Hanger
or at Julie MTF Style, as well as on our website at
foxandhanger.com. Julie, it's your moment.
(27:42):
Fox in the Phoenix podcast uses anchor.
Copyright 2024. Yes, nailed it.
If you enjoy our content and want to make it easier for
others to find us, please share with your friends, tap the
Subscribe or Follow button to the show wherever you're
(28:02):
listening, give it a five star rating or leave a review.
And for show ideas or comments, contact us through the podcast
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Fox and the Phoenix Podcast under Score.
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