November 3, 2025 • 46 mins
A small-town key and a big idea changed fitness forever. We’re sitting with Chuck Runyon, cofounder of Anytime Fitness and Purpose Brands, to trace the leap from oversized racquetball clubs to tech-enabled, 24/7 gyms that actually match how people train today. Chuck opens up about building with empathy for small business owners, why “health first, brand second” guides every decision, and how a relentless focus on unit-level performance fuels enduring growth.
We dig into the trends reshaping the industry: strength training as the foundation, recovery moving mainstream with saunas and red light, and the rise of personalization powered by wearables, biometrics, and smarter blood work. Chuck explains how human-plus-AI coaching can cut through wellness noise by turning data into plans people can follow, with accountability that comes from a coach’s hug, high five, or hard push. If you’ve wondered how to open strong, he breaks down the presales playbook, the non-negotiables in site selection, and the KPIs every operator must master—average member value, PT penetration, close rate, and engagement.
For investors and operators, we cover what makes a brand acquisition-ready: proof of concept, scalable economics, and international portability. Chuck shares how master franchises drive explosive global growth, why standardization matters with room for local flavor, and how private equity roll-ups can unlock faster expansion and cleaner exits. He’s candid about mistakes, proud of the culture that’s won best-place-to-work awards, and bullish on the next decade as fitness and medical care converge.
If you care about building durable franchises, picking winners in longevity and personal care, or just want a clearer roadmap to member outcomes that stick, this conversation delivers. Subscribe, share with a friend who’s eyeing their first franchise, and leave a review with the KPI you track first—we’ll feature the best insights on a future show.
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From your pals in franchise ownership, Jack and Jill Johnson.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_05 (00:21):
Hi everyone, welcome back to the We Bought a
Franchise podcast.
I'm Jack Johnson.
I'm Jill Johnson.
And today, boy, we've got agreat podcast for you guys
today.
Today, we have the legendaryChuck Runyon of Anytime Fitness
and Purpose Brands, OrangeTheory.
Chuck, I know I'm probablyleaving some of this out.
What Waxing the City 2?
(00:43):
Thank you for being on ourpodcast today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Yeah, thank you.
Along with the Bar Method andBasecamp Fitness.
So we have five franchise brandswithin the portfolio and excited
to be here today.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_05 (00:52):
Oh my gosh.
Excellent.
What a portfolio.
We've got so much to unpack.
And of course, we're joined byour esteemed panel of franchise
consultants.
We have Katherine Allen, BrianGross, David San Juan, and
Morgan Knowler joining us.
I think this is going to be aterrific podcast today.
And Chuck, you know, there's somuch that you've done in your
career.
And I'd love to hear your storyand kind of what got you
(01:15):
started.
Maybe just if you wouldn't mind,how did this all start?
How did how did anytime fitnessbegin?
What was the need that you saw?
How did how did you get into allof this?
SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
Yeah, it really goes back to when Dave and I were
like 20 years old.
So we have been likeentrepreneurs for 36 years.
And it's really important tonote that for the majority of
that time, we've been smallbusiness owners, which has like
instilled within us thisincredible empathy.
And it's like no matter how bigpurpose brand gets, we have the
(01:44):
soul of a small business owner.
We understand how hard it is torun a small business and that
there are never enough resourcesto like to help.
And so that's why with ourfranchise owners, man, we know
what it's like.
And so we have so much empathyand we provide so much support,
both emotional and operationalsupport.
But when we were 20, we westarted selling memberships and
health clubs here inMinneapolis, St.
Paul.
(02:05):
We became very good at it and weknew how to like market and do
membership blitzes.
So from you know, for 15 years,from 1990 to 2005, we ran a
marketing company that wouldwork with health clubs all
across the US, Canada, even inAustralia.
And we would do membershipblitzes for multi-purpose health
clubs around the country.
And we generate hundreds,sometimes thousands of
memberships.
And our company got paid acommission based on performance.
(02:26):
So we've always been performancedriven.
We've always had to like earnit.
And then in the late 90s, wecame across some distressed
health clubs that had aracquetball whirlpool sauna, you
know, 40, 50, 60,000 squarefeet.
And they were going to close.
We would buy them very cheap.
We'd, you know, remodel them andput in our sales and marketing
expertise and take a club thatmaybe had a few hundred members
to a few thousand members.
(02:48):
And we'd end up selling them fora profit.
And it was during the ownershipof those larger clubs where we
realized that, you know,racquetball is declining,
aerobics was declining at thetime, pools, whirlpool saunas,
all that stuff was beingunderutilized.
And we're like, gosh, we've got50,000, 60,000 square feet, but
most people are coming in forcardio and strength and nautilus
and personal training.
And so we kept thinking aboutthe idea of, all right, we
(03:09):
should we should create more ofan express club.
And but we didn't really knowwhat the differentiator was.
So I went to visit one of ourteams in Tullahoma, Tennessee, a
very small town and outside ofuh Nashville.
And we were marketing, we werecreating memberships for a small
town club, and the owner wasgiving away hardware keys to his
members.
And I remember walking to theparking lot, calling my partners
(03:31):
at the time, Dave being one ofthem, saying, look, this is it.
We can create like a keylessclub that is efficient.
And you know, back in 2002 or2001, we started this, you know,
remember the the this type oftechnology didn't exist.
Um there were no smartphones,right?
We're using floppy disk at thetime.
And so we really in 2002, inMay, launched the first
technology-enabled fitnesscenter, using technology to give
(03:55):
our members 24-7 convenience,come in anytime they want,
surveillance system, and we gaveaway key fobs, but it allowed
the owner to provide 24-7access, but not always staff the
club.
And we took all the safetyrequirements.
And so our payroll in our bigstores used to be like 40% or
more.
And in anytime fitness, it'd be10% because you can selectively
staff.
And so that technology enabledus to grow very fast.
(04:18):
And we look, we didn't know muchabout franchising at the time,
but we're quick learners.
We started club number one as afranchise, and so the genesis
was the differentiator oftechnology meets fitness, and
then our investment infranchising in day one.
SPEAKER_05 (04:34):
I mean, it's just such an incredible story.
And you guys were named thenumber one franchise in the
world uh in 2016 by EntrepreneurMagazine.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Well, two years in a row, by the way.
And I like to say that, youknow, I'm from Minnesota.
We are the most winning ispurple team.
The Vikings are number two,because in franchising, that's
like the equivalent to winningthe Super Bowl, which we won
twice.
And as you know, teams fromMinnesota don't win the Super
Bowl.
So we are proud of that award.
By the way, we've also receivedlike best place to work in
(05:04):
Minnesota multiple times.
We're super proud of our cultureand winning that talent award
and being a great place to workand the lifestyle we deliver
franchisees.
SPEAKER_05 (05:12):
So the world, and it's interesting, we had, I
don't know if you know Josh Yorkfrom Jim Guys.
He's growing up an incrediblefranchise.
We we had him on the podcastlast week.
And and Chuck, I'd say for halfof it, we just kind of talked
about cold plunging and saunaand recovery.
And it seems to me that fitnesshas changed a lot in the last 10
(05:34):
years.
You know, you look at the thingsthat we're doing now versus what
we were doing 10 years ago.
Strength has moved into thelead, right?
More strength, less cardio, moresteps.
You don't need to go runyourself to death anymore.
Now it's more focused onbuilding up that sort of you
know high-intensity workouts andthen recovery with sauna and
cold plungers.
I'd love to hear your take onwhere things are going, where
(05:57):
things have changed and what yousee happening out there.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
Absolutely love it.
Look, we all wish COVID neverhappened, but the the I guess
silver lining is all thesewellness conversations have
accelerated.
And if you think about our agingpopulation, I love the narrative
around longevity and strengthtraining and quality of life and
health span, right?
It's not about six-pack abs,it's not about necessarily
vanity, it's about the mentalside of fitness and uh adding
(06:23):
quality to our life because uhhealth is an asset.
So I love it.
There has never been a bettertime to be a fitness consumer.
You can find things free onYouTube, you can find a very
cheap club nearby, you can finda boutique for the modality that
you love, you can find anexpensive club, you can find a
convenient club.
You wearables, I mean, it'snever ever been a better time.
And therefore, it's also neverbeen a better time in this
(06:44):
industry to be an entrepreneuror to be a franchisee.
And so I love where this isgoing.
The best years are ahead of us.
If you think about all theconversations around
preventative wellness and thisintersection between medical and
fitness coming together, hugeopportunities for everyone in
fitness and every singleconsumer.
So, I mean, it's the rightconversations to have.
And I love it.
Look, I guarantee you the nextdecade's gonna be an incredible
(07:07):
opportunity for everyone inwellness.
SPEAKER_05 (07:09):
I just got the the whoop um last week.
SPEAKER_04 (07:13):
And uh you have it, stop talking about them.
SPEAKER_05 (07:16):
Well, so yesterday I took we both Joel and I just did
our you know, what semi-annual?
We get them twice a year.
SPEAKER_04 (07:21):
No, this is our annual one.
SPEAKER_05 (07:23):
But like she does our blood twice a year.
Yes.
Okay, so so Woop checked sevensixty-five markers, right?
Um and I had 55 from the doctor,and I inputted all of it into
Whoop, and then Whoop said,okay, well, now based upon your
sleep, based upon your exercise,based upon your all this stuff,
here's what I'm gonna recommendfor you.
I'm like, just like you said,wow, what a great time for for
(07:45):
you know, fitness and data andall this great stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
The level of personalization is remarkable
and only getting better.
The wearables are so good inthis space.
And then the democratization ofservices like getting your blood
panel, but then getting them ina way that's understandable and
now taking actionable steps, andthat is like never before, you
know, peptides, personalization,supplements.
And for us now to like take thatinformation and give it to our
(08:10):
medical professionals to get theright care that is very
preventative.
I mean, I'm telling you, it'sonly going to get better.
If you look at health kit,right, it's very portable.
I can share that now with mymedical professional or my
physical therapist or mynutritionist, whoever I want.
And so I'm telling you, we it'suh this level of personalization
and the ability now to maybemonetize that in the future with
maybe lower insurance costs oryou know, brand deals from you
(08:31):
know, supplements or uh, youknow, getting your blood tests,
et cetera, it's it's only gonnaget better.
So I love where it's going.
SPEAKER_05 (08:38):
We are so excited to have um your brands as a part of
our portfolio.
We've just started working withAnytime Fitness over the past, I
think, three months or so.
Uh, I believe we're addingOrange Theory to our inventory
for all of you listening.
We should be able to offer thatin the next couple of weeks.
We're excited about that.
Um, team, do you guys havequestions you'd like to start
(08:59):
diving in?
SPEAKER_03 (09:00):
Yes, hi, Chuck.
Morgan Knowler here.
Um, I am curious how PurposeBrands uh evaluates whether one
of these is scalable.
Like what data do you use?
And how do you determine what'spart of Purpose Brands?
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
It's a great question.
And we are still eagerly lookingat the what I'd call the
personal care space.
Um Wax in the City is a brandthat we acquired uh, you know,
pre-COVID.
Uh it's doing well.
That gives us permission to kindof be in that personal care
space.
And I think if you look atbeauty and skin and anti-aging,
longevity, and med spa, and allthose things, there are going to
be some winners that we'regonna, you know, kind of keep
(09:34):
our eyes on to potentiallyacquire.
Um, it we definitely has to beof something of purpose, you
know, something that we believein that makes lives better.
That that's a that's an absolutesomething we won't uh compromise
on.
And then, you know, it's got tobe a the proof of concept is
there.
I mean, we're probably we're atthe size now.
We need to have a brand that hasshown proof of concept, you
(09:55):
know, probably has at least 100or more units as a uh, you know,
has growth potential and is alsoportable internationally.
I mean, one of the biggestassets of purpose brands is we
have about 18 master franchiseesaround the world.
You know, people don't knowthis, but we have more locations
for any time fitness locatedoutside the US than inside the
US.
I mean, over 3,000 outside theUS.
In fact, if we open up 500 clubsthis year, 75 to 80% of those
(10:18):
will be outside the US.
So we need something that'sportable so we can leverage our
relationships around the world.
Um, and then we need somethingthat has shown proof of concept.
It's a good product, it's a goodservice.
Now we can just add ourcapabilities to make it grow
faster.
SPEAKER_03 (10:34):
Great, thank you.
And also I was thinking aboutthe franchisees you have in your
system and how fitness andwellness is, you know, it's it's
a very competitive market.
What KPIs do you recommend thatthey pay attention to in order
to stay ahead of the curve andrelevant?
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So every brand, of course, has adifferent set of KPIs.
Um, and so our fitness businesscoaches, I mean, you know, have
these KPIs, the owner has it aswell.
And so, you know, when peoplecome through like our discovery
days, we talk about those KPIs.
Like, what do we track?
Why do we track them?
And more importantly, how do wemanage them?
How do we measure them?
(11:09):
How do we make sure that ifyou're doing well, you can be
best in class?
If you're not doing well, how doyou change that?
So, I mean, we have very typicalKPIs on like personal training
percentage, average membervalue, you know, close rate.
I mean, all these things arevery typical.
But it's really important for usto manage from those KPIs to
make sure our owners understandit.
And more importantly, they knowhow to take action and get their
team to take action around itand reward those.
(11:30):
And uh, at the end of the day,we try to benchmark those within
our networks you know whereyou're best in class or where
you need some improvement.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Excellent.
Thank you.
This is Catherine Allen.
Hey, Chuck.
Um, what advice would you havefor someone in the corporate
fitness space looking totransition into franchise
ownership?
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Well, I mean, typically our some of our most
successful franchisees have cometo us with fitness industry
experience.
So if they already have somecorporate fitness experience, I
think that's a massive asset toput to work.
Um, but like any franchisee,first of all, they really should
get to know their franchise orget to know the people on the
team.
When you come to Discovery Day,like spend time with the
marketing leader, the realestate leader, the you know, all
(12:15):
the primary subject matterexperts that are going to help
drive this business and get anyou know, get a feel for the
culture and the sentiment thatthe franchise or has and the
relationship they have withfranchisees, as well as do your
homework, call franchisees.
But you know, going back to thatKPI conversation, I mean, talk
about the KPIs and you know, howwill I be measured for success?
How do I change these?
(12:36):
I mean, really get to understandthe business.
I think the KPIs that afranchise or measures and a
franchisee has tells a lot aboutwhat's important and see kind of
go into it eyes wide open is allright, here, you know, if I know
I need to acquire members andengage those members, support
those members, let's look at theKPIs that do that.
SPEAKER_05 (12:52):
You know, it's interesting.
Um, real quick point yesterday,I love what you said, Chuck,
about call franchisees.
So we're working with a clientthat's talking to a very, I
don't want to say very, but afairly young franchise.
And the representative texted melast night and he said, Hey,
listen, there's something wrongwith your client.
They say to me they're not goingto sign unless they can talk to
(13:13):
at least five randomfranchisees.
What's up with that?
And I said, That's my guidance.
I make sure we make sure atfranchise insiders and all of
us, Chuck, the whole purpose ofour brand is we are franchise
owners helping future franchiseowners.
All of us are current or formerfranchise owners.
And I said to the rep, look,that's our guidance.
We want them to talk to highperformers, low performers,
medium performers, even someonethat's left the system.
(13:36):
Because yes, the item 19 and theitem 20 and the item six and
seven tell a story, but nothingtells a better story than
franchisees.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
100% agree.
It's funny.
Um there was a side opportunityI was kind of looking for on
behalf of a group of investorfriends.
And so I made some phone callspersonally to this brand I was
looking at, not in the Wilbusspace.
And you know, I know whatquestions ask.
And at the end of the day, I didenough diligence and I and I
called people off the referencesheet.
By the way, they werefranchisees, they gave me some
(14:07):
of their financials.
And at the end of the day, thatgroup did not decide to do the
investment because it justwasn't good enough.
And so I 100% agree.
Like, visit or call franchiseeson or off the reference sheet.
You the, you know, what we tellour sales team to do is like,
given the situation of theprospect, maybe the type of
market, the type of partnershipor kind of the competitive make,
(14:28):
like, try to find them somereferences where they have this
specific competitor or they havea partnership like this.
And you know, provide a curatedlist.
But the but the prospect shouldalways do some of their own
diligence as well, for sure.
And, you know, we we prideourselves in providing a soft
landing.
Look, when a club or studio orfranchise is not going well, we
try to help resell.
We will help our franchisee tothe last out to the last inning.
(14:50):
And so try to talk to some ofthose people.
But also, you guys know this,you know, everyone in business
has bad days.
And we when you are afranchisee, if you're having a
bad day, and sometimes it comesout that way.
So you just gotta, you know, ifyou do some accumulative
diligence, you take all of thatand versus maybe a one-off call.
You know, if someone's great orsomeone's bad, just you know,
look at all of it in totality.
SPEAKER_04 (15:12):
Yeah, we always talk about how, you know, it's
important to talk to everybody,but everyone's in a different
place in this whole process.
So one thing we always talkabout is how your first, you
know, 12 to 18 months can be themost stressful, the most
difficult.
Um, so if you're starting, let'ssay, an anytime fitness from
scratch, what do those firstlike 12 months look like?
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
Well, assuming you, you know, you sign the franchise
agreement and we have all thereal estate analytics and the
broker network, you know, andwe've got to help you find a
good site.
That is a very criticaldecision.
So we've got all the vendors andall the help to do that.
You know, once you get that sitesolidified and negotiate a
lease, and we have a wonderfulvendor to help do that because
no one should ever negotiatetheir lease on their own, you
know, make sure they hire anattorney.
(15:52):
But assuming you have the site,the lease signed, we give a
design book and projectmanagement to help you do the
design process to get that storeopen.
But the beauty about thewellness space, specifically
with any time fitness, is youcan pre-sale memberships before
you open.
And so you can open up yourdoors.
Our average club opens up withover 150 members.
So you've already got somecapital, you've already got some
recurring revenue booked, right?
(16:13):
We sign people up on 12, 18, or24 month agreements.
And so with that recurring, sothat's a wonderful way to start
your business when you'vealready got, say, a couple
hundred members.
And by the way, we've had we'vehad clubs join up with hundreds
of members, even over athousand.
So it's, you know, really gettactical.
I mean, there's never a bettertime when you're the brand new
business in town.
There's so much local PR,there's so much curiosity, so
(16:33):
much excitement.
We really want our franchiseesto get off to a good start.
So no matter what business, I ifyou're in a flower business, if
you're in a restaurant business,really maximize that grand
opening that first six monthsbecause everyone's excited about
your business.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Chuck, uh Brian Gross here.
And I'm going to completelydisagree with something you said
earlier.
Um I go to the gym daily andit's purely for vanity.
Right.
So uh so some of us some of usare still out there.
Um but uh but uh on a moreserious note, you know, one of
the cool things about some ofyour brands, they've been around
(17:06):
a long time, right?
So you've seen a lot of economiccycles, ups and downs.
You've seen a lot of fitnessfads come and go.
You know, so how do you set upyour brands for that long-term
success?
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
Yeah, it's a great question, by the way.
In 23 years of anytime fitness,we've been through the startup
years, the great recession.
A lot of people don't rememberthose times, right, when the
banking industry was collapsingand you know, landlords didn't
want to make any deals.
We couldn't look, it was toughto get financing.
We've been through what I'd callthis digital, right, ubiquitous
revolution where everyone, thephone now has become the number
(17:38):
one thing in everyone's life.
We've been through so manydifferent types of competition.
We've been through COVID.
And so we've kind of seen itall.
And you know, we we have to beincredibly re-adaptable,
incredibly resilient, you know,incredibly strong, not just
operationally, but emotionallyfor our franchise owners.
And we we provide emotionalsupport sometimes as much as we
provide operational support.
And so we talk about EQ a lotwith our team and how necessary
(18:00):
that is to listen and to comfortand to you know to just offer
that emotional support to ourfranchise owners.
Um, you know, the we adapt tothe times.
I mean, obviously, strengthtraining has never been more
important, but there were timeswhen people were kind of into
the studio sector.
And so we've done things likesmall group training, we've done
you know, in-person one-on-onecoaching, we are now doing
virtual coaching.
(18:21):
We've offered, we've addednutrition and recovery, as is uh
Jack started earlier in thisconversation.
I mean, we have saunas in someof our clubs now.
We have red light therapy insome of our clubs, and so we
want to be very adaptable.
And so our offerings have kindof like been a bit elastic in
the size of our clubs.
We've added functional training.
Um, and so over the years, wecontinue to adapt and evolve our
(18:44):
model.
Uh, we we did a deal with AppleFitness Plus.
Every single one of our membersgets Apple Fitness Plus as part
of their membership so thatdigital, right?
They can do whether they're in aclub or outside of a club, they
now have you know every modalityat Apple Fitness Clubs.
They're an incredible partner.
So we just continue to adapt towhat the consumers' needs and
expectations are.
SPEAKER_05 (19:03):
Chuck, is there are there owners that diversify from
Anytime to Orange Theory andvice versa?
How much of that are you guysseeing?
SPEAKER_00 (19:12):
You know, the merger is relatively new.
I mean, it's about a year and ahalf, so we have not seen that
much yet.
Okay.
Uh internationally for certainthat's going to happen as our
masters kind of grow andmaturity, they're going to have
be multi-brand in theirportfolio.
Uh, we have some owners now whodo like Basecamp at any time
because that's been aroundlonger, Wax in the City, Bar
Methods.
We have some cross-polination.
And some of our owners now areactually, you know, becoming
(19:34):
with private equity back,they're looking for um other
offerings even outside ofwellness.
So it's, I would say it'sbecoming more common.
But as you look at our entireportfolio, it's still a small
percentage of owners.
SPEAKER_05 (19:44):
And and that's a great point.
And for our listeners that are,you know, private equity and
looking for roll-ups withinfranchise communities, is that
something that you guys are opento?
SPEAKER_00 (19:54):
Yeah, huge trend right now going on within our
network.
And I think all our franchising,I think private equity loves
franchising, the predictabilityof recurring revenue.
They love to back solidoperators who have it with a
proven track record.
And you can do some roll-ups,right?
You can get that eBay arbitrage,you can buy a single unit or two
or three units for a much lesslower multiple.
And once you put in a platform,you get a higher multiple.
So I think that's a trendhappening within our network and
(20:16):
across franchising.
And look, you know, for privateequity, assuming you pick the
right partner, they add capital,you know, they add capability,
they can be a really goodpartner.
So it's a way to professionalizeyour operation and grow quicker.
SPEAKER_05 (20:30):
And especially if you can recapitalize a very
effective owner.
Um, and okay, now here, you'vedone a great job growing these
five locations.
Now here's 20 million.
Let's go do it.
Let's go take some of thoseunderperformers, let's buy them
and grow them.
And and and for everybody wins,right?
You guys win, the item 19 getsbeefier.
Um, those owners that wereunderperforming get an exit, and
(20:52):
private equity and the owner,they get acquisition partners.
I mean, that's where to me, amature system like the brands
that you guys have, that that wefeel so good about connecting
investors to you guys because weknow there are built-in
acquisition and exit partnersfrom day one.
So we'll know at month 18, asJill mentioned, of being open,
you've got options to eithergrow or sell to someone else and
(21:15):
go do something else.
SPEAKER_00 (21:16):
You nailed it.
Nothing to add there, you nailedit.
Awesome.
SPEAKER_05 (21:20):
David, what do you got?
Hey Chuck.
SPEAKER_06 (21:23):
David Santa Holland here.
Um, first of all, I think I'vespent money in every single one
of your clubs.
So uh I'm one of the gym rats.
I I've actually my last gymmembership was at Anytime
Fitness in a small town calledLiberty Hill, Texas.
Uh that was the only gym around,so it's great.
Um talking about uh multi-unitoperations, how do you maintain
(21:43):
brand alignment when franchiseesgrow into multi-unit operators
with their own local identity?
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Oh boy, that's a great question.
And first let me say, you know,one of the reasons we started
Anytime Fitness too is we sawall these underserved markets,
specifically rural to like, youknow, second or third tier.
I mean, we might be the onlyclub in a town of five, ten,
fifteen, twenty thousand people.
And so if you think about thehealth in rural America, it's
it's not that great.
And so for us to provide whatI'd call big gym equipment, big
(22:10):
gym services in a smaller gym ina in a market that can only
we're probably the only type ofgym that can be sustainable.
I love it.
I'm so proud of the fact that weoffer, you know, anytime fitness
in our services in very smallmarkets, by the way, around the
world now.
So I love that.
Your question's great.
So if I'm being honest, um, youknow, we started in 2002.
(22:30):
Our business model was reallyeasy to replicate.
And so after we launched,everyone saw it.
We had dozens and dozens ofcopycatters.
I mean, go around 5,000 squarefeet, shove it full of
equipment, create thistechnology package, and open.
And so we were in this crazymarket race.
So if I'm being honest, we soldto anyone because we wanted to
win the market share race.
We wanted to be the number oneplayer.
(22:51):
It worked out.
We're here today.
We are like 40 times bigger thanour number two competitor, and
uh, you know, most of thoseother competitors went out of
business.
But because we grew so fast, um,if I as I look back, we did not
uh have the uniformity and brandstandards and enforcement that
we should have.
And so today, uh, you know, youcan go to two anytime fitnesses
and unfortunately have not thesame type of standardized
(23:13):
experience.
We are much better at today thanwe ever have been before.
And like internationally, ourclubs are better as a network
than they are domestically, andwe're getting better
domestically.
So but it's a mistake I I madeand we made as a leader to not
strictly we could have done bothat the same time.
So, but today, look, it's farmore standardized, far more
uniformity.
(23:33):
We have a great deal of respectfor what localization is
necessary, but at the end of theday, we want every any-time
fitness to look and feel andoperate very, very similarly.
So, you know, we're our owners,community events, you know, some
of the how they engage thecommunity, uh, obviously some of
the culture that they have isobviously nuanced to their
community and their leadership,but we're trying to be a little
bit more standardized than we'veever been before.
(23:55):
And by the way, I think one ofthe if you think about
international growth, we call itglobal.
What do we globalize in theexperience that is absolutely
standard across every anytimefitness in the world?
And then what do we need tolocalize?
And if you're in Japan, ifyou're in Spain, if you're in
London, you know, there are somelocal nuances we have to be very
respectful of and we have toaccommodate locally.
So there are some things we weneed to allow to make sure that
(24:18):
brand thrives in that region ofthe world.
SPEAKER_05 (24:21):
And Chuck, did you mention on the international
front, are you guys doing uhmasters or is it just you know
singles and multi-unit?
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
Uh master franchisees.
So for instance, in our first umdeal was Australia, 2008.
They essentially buy the rightsto subfranchise in Australia.
So they sell and support theirown franchisees.
We support the masterfranchisee.
And so Australia, AnytimeFitness is the number one brand
in Australia.
As we speak, they're havingtheir annual conference in Gold
(24:49):
Coast right now, and um they arecrushing it.
They're by the way, they'venever had better numbers in
terms of member count, averagemember value, total remit.
They are absolutely crushing it.
And we they're our partners, butagain, they sell and support
their own network of franchiseowners.
SPEAKER_05 (25:03):
Chuck, I've got a funny story for you.
So prior to starting franchiseinsiders, Jill, myself,
Catherine, we were at afranchise which is now known as
the Key, which is in-home healthcare.
Um and our first masterfranchisee was in Australia too,
because Catherine on herhoneymoon, where did you meet,
(25:23):
where did you meet thatfranchisee?
SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
Uh in Bali at a restaurant bar.
Docker.
And I started talking to him uhabout his his dad, and he had
dementia.
And so he was, you know, Istarted talking about our
dementia care and all thesethings, and next thing we know,
connected him with Jack and hebecame our master franchise
(25:48):
owner.
SPEAKER_05 (25:50):
Very cool.
It's amazing how often Australiais the first master, master
franchise.
SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
Well, they're a very franchise-centered culture.
I think per capita, they'rethey're maybe the highest or one
of the highest countries offranchises per capita.
So they're very, veryfranchise-centric.
SPEAKER_02 (26:05):
Yeah, I think for us it's the home care there is so
different with their home carepackages and how it's run.
It's very different than the theUS.
So um they those owners did verywell.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Well, it's funny.
Remember, we started here in2002, and around there were so
many competitors heredomestically, but around the
world, people took notice.
And so in Australia, we were notthe first to market in our type
of business model.
There were competitors there.
But I give so much credit to ourAustralian partners, they
out-executed our competition.
We are by far in our the numberone fitness brand in Australia.
They're just crushing it.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
It's amazing.
I feel like people in Australiawould be very fitness conscious.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
Uh, you'd be surprised.
People have that, but you know,the the mental health in
Australia is a big deal.
Uh, the obesity rate andunhealthy is probably a little
bit more than you think.
Um, and so they're not ashealthy as uh what yeah, as the
brand appears.
By the way, I love Australia.
There's some of my my bestbuddies are down there, but uh
yeah, they they they're likeevery other country.
They you know they're being toosedentary, not eating the right
(27:02):
types of food, so they need moreanytime.
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
Too much vegemite, too much vegemite.
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
Exactly.
100%.
SPEAKER_05 (27:09):
Yeah.
Well, and then looking at yourLinkedIn um profile, Chuck, I
can see that you know, health,wellness, nutrition, that's a
big part of uh of your, I wouldsay, passion, perhaps, and in
helping to educate the world onwhat's right in terms of uh uh
of nutrition.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
I've used a term called health first, brand
second, meaning that I want tospend my time promoting uh a
healthier life.
Uh that means we lobby withmembers of Congress and and uh
you know policymakers around theworld.
Look, it's just you know, weneed to get people healthier.
Despite the abundance ofwellness offerings, we are an
unhealthy society.
(27:47):
And and by the way, poor healtharound the world.
And so I just want people towork out.
I just want people to behealthy.
So if you choose anytimefitness, awesome.
But if you choose another brand,I just want you to choose, I
just want you to be healthy andlike live healthier behaviors.
So I really care about healthfirst, brand second.
And if the world is gettinghealthier, all of us in this
industry are gonna benefit.
Um, but I just want healthiersocieties, I want healthier
people around the world.
SPEAKER_05 (28:09):
And it feels like that, you know, it feels like
we've got some of the rightmessaging going out there.
And I again, I think we'regetting so much smarter about
this.
When I think back to like whenyou when you and I first met in
2007, I mean, we didn't think atall about nutrition.
You know, we we wanted protein,but it was like if you look at
like the protein shakes we hadback then, the stuff that was in
(28:30):
those pro the gums and thefillers, and now we're getting
so much more knowledgeable aboutlet's go with less ingredients,
simpler ingredients, cleaneringredients.
Um, and you know, it's so coolbecause now I can just say to
ChatGPT, what do you think ofthe ingredients of this shake?
And it will say, Well, this isgood and this is not good.
So we, like you've saidrepeatedly on this podcast,
we're in such a neat environmentnow because we have so much
(28:52):
data.
It's just executing the data.
SPEAKER_04 (28:54):
I think it's important too to have different
types of fitness because youknow, once you kind of find your
passion and what you love, likethose orange theory people,
they're they're hardcore.
Like I'm impressed.
They're up every morning,they're going, like they're
dedicated.
And, you know, I mean, I'msomeone that one time I couldn't
find a parking spot at the gym,so I left.
(29:14):
Um, but it was a long time ago.
I, you know, but it was until Ifound something that I loved,
you know, until I startedgetting into different things.
So I think having the varietyand the fact that we have that
now, you know, you have orangetheater is great for people who
are competitive.
You have bar method or you know,something like that that's going
to be a little bit maybe lessintense for people looking for a
(29:35):
different type of thing.
I just think it's amazing howmuch variety we have.
And I love that you guys havethat.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
Well, thank you.
And look, you guys are allfitness enthusiasts.
You understand wellness, youunderstand how important it is
mentally and physically.
And I'm a hardwired optimist.
However, I also understand thereality.
And the reality is eight out often people are not very healthy.
They're not, they're not amember of a commercial health
club, they're not seeing muchactivity during the week.
And the reality is, you know,this technology is allowing us
(30:01):
to be sedentary.
And unfortunately, it's we'reconsuming the things that are
making us mentally fragile ormentally in a worse place.
And so mental health, as youknow, is becoming a big issue.
Uh, people are sitting too muchand and not burning off the
calories, and um we have what Iconsider very low nutritional
IQ.
The average person doesn'treally understand.
(30:22):
The caloric intake.
They underestimate the calorieson their plate and they
overestimate what movement andburn.
And so if you don't have thatknowledge, it's it's really, I
mean, your body IQ is very, verylow for most people.
They don't understand yourresting metabolic rate.
And so you guys get it, but I'mtelling you, it's the health for
most people is getting worse,not better, despite the abundant
(30:44):
growth of our industry.
SPEAKER_01 (30:46):
So, Chuck, on you know, along those lines, right,
we have access to moreinformation than than ever.
You know, that we've made a lotof development.
We've we've hit on some of thosetrends here.
Um, you know, where do you seethis space going over the next
five, 10 years?
SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
Oh wow, you nailed it, man.
So if you look at our watch forour January marketing campaign
for Nytime Fitness becausethere's too much information out
there.
It's too noisy.
Consumers don't know who totrust.
They don't know what is reallythe truth.
And so we're leaning into that.
Uh, I think AI can, of course,help us, but at the end of the
day, people still need a humantouch.
(31:20):
They need a high five from theircoach, uh, they need a hug.
Sometimes they need that kick inthe butt.
They need to be heldaccountable.
Accountability is hard intoday's environment.
So we're really trying to likebalance the right AI for
personalization, but alsooftentimes it tells our reminds
our coaches or our club staffthe messages that a person needs
to hear.
And we can personalize thatmessage.
So it's kind of like this humanAI um combination that we're
(31:43):
trying to zero in on.
And so people know who to trust.
We we want them to be able totrust for local New Time
Fitness, the content we providethem that's right for them, and
the coach that they meet withbecause we understand where
they're at, and that comes fromtaking in their biometrics,
taking their behaviors, like wecan take in their wearable
information.
We've got body scanners with 40different biometrics.
So we can take in thatinformation, be be hyper
(32:06):
personal, and then make sure tocustomize a plan that meets
their lifestyle and meets theirneeds.
And so I'm not saying we'rewe're where we need to be today,
but that's where we're going.
And there's never been more abetter time for consumer data,
and we can use it for the rightpurposes.
And so I'm super excited aboutthat.
But you nailed it, man.
There's so much information outthere.
People don't know who to trustor what to do.
SPEAKER_05 (32:27):
Chuck, one of my favorite sayings is help enough
people get what they want, andyou will get what you want.
And how good must it feel foryou to have created this
incredible brand that has beenvoted the best franchise in the
world, to have helped so manypeople.
Like what you have done hashelped so many people.
What does that feel like whenyou put your head down on the
(32:49):
pillow at the end of the night?
I mean, that must feel so good.
SPEAKER_00 (32:52):
Yeah, it's funny you say that phrase.
I always use it all the time.
Is to put your head down on thepillow, knowing that the work
you did today helped others, Ican't put a price on it.
Like, I mean, purpose brands,that is like who we are.
And so the fact that the harderwe work, the more people around
the world have access to health,the harder we work, the more
jobs we create around the world.
(33:13):
Where, by the way, for somepeople around the world, you
know, you get to like SoutheastAsia, where jobs aren't as
abundant and maybe jobs forwomen aren't as abundant.
I mean, we empower people aroundthe world to provide franchise
opportunities to democratize andmake affordable franchise
opportunities.
So we get to like triple dip onconsumers, on our franchisees
(33:35):
and club staff, and on our ownemployees.
Oh man, it is soul enriching.
It's calories for the soul.
And so at the end of the day,it's like the purpose is very,
very strong in what we do.
I can't imagine doing it morebecause we get to help people.
The harder we, you know, nomatter what, I don't care how
hard it gets, what problemswe're trying to solve, if we
solve it, we help more people.
SPEAKER_05 (33:55):
So well said.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
By the way, I can't help but plug this.
Just came out.
Dave and I wrote a book calledFranchise Your Franchise.
And so, look, we've never wantedto build an ordinary franchise.
We wanted something that likeliterally lights people up and
uh from from uh you know, wintheir hearts, win their mind,
win their soul.
And so I'm gonna send you guys acopy because like and uh we just
(34:19):
want people to build like afranchise, like you know, get as
passionate about your job as youdo like your college team or
your sports team or yourfavorite band.
I mean, let's really emotionallyengage our stakeholders, unlike
other other opportunities.
SPEAKER_05 (34:35):
That's great.
Yeah, that's fabulous.
Is there is there Kindle andaudio versions of that book too,
Chubb?
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
It is so hot off the press.
We literally created this forour franchise owners at our our
Boston conference two weeks ago.
So probably early 2026, therewill be those options, but right
now it's just a good oldrudimentary archaic book.
Love it, love it.
SPEAKER_05 (34:55):
That's awesome.
Well, Chuck, you've been sogenerous with your time today.
What I'd like to do now is maybejust do a quick round the horn
uh last questions.
Um I'm gonna go ahead and uhCatherine, you you draw first.
SPEAKER_02 (35:08):
So gosh, why?
Why first?
So much.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chuck, for joining.
Honestly.
Better first than last.
A pleasure to have you ontoday's call.
One question I didn't get to askuh that I wanted to was as women
lead more in the fitness andwell wellness space, how is
(35:30):
Purpose Brand supportingdiversity and leadership
development across its systems?
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
Oh gosh, I love that question.
I'm telling you, maybe one ofthe secret ingredients of our
success over the last 23 yearshas been that the majority of
people of influence within ourcompany have been women.
Look, we are a brand of EQ.
We're a brand that really needsto communicate.
And generally speaking, um,women have strong communicators.
(35:58):
They listen, they're willing toengage their heart, they have
empathy, they they just, at theend of the day, they have a high
EQ.
So we've created an atmosphere,an environment where with
unlimited PTO, like we as I'm aparent of four, Dave's a parent
of five, we never want ouremployees to miss those
important moments.
So like we don't track it, likeyou do what you got to do.
And so we've been an amazingplace for people of all walks of
(36:20):
life to work, but specificallyum women.
And you will not find a morediverse franchise brand, at
least in wellness, than we are,because we operate in over 40
countries.
We operate in all sevencontinents, and so we've got
people from all walks of lifethat are operating our fitness
centers or working with ourministers or working as vendors.
(36:41):
We're very, very rich indiversity and uh opportunities
for for everybody.
And so I'm super, super proud ofthat.
SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
I love that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (36:51):
Ryan?
All right, Chuck.
So there's a lot in the uh inthe fitness industry.
So right now you're an investor,and what's a brand, a vertical
in the in the space that youwould love to have in your
portfolio that you don't haveright now?
SPEAKER_00 (37:07):
Ooh, um, I I don't I don't really want to name Ames
for Zook, but I'm telling you,the there are so many
opportunities and what I'd calllongevity, anti-aging.
Um, you know, it it's a kind ofa new, but there's so much
fragmentation, and I'd saythere's a whole lot of players
out there, and eventually thereare going to be some winners.
And so we're giving this time tolet them let's see who the
(37:30):
winners are.
We're just at the size now.
We're I mean, if you're not atfive or ten million dollars in
EBITDA or something, if youdon't have some scale and some
some proven portability, we'rejust not ready yet.
But I'm keeping an eye on thisspace, probably for personal
reasons too, is at my age,right?
And longevity and and and likeyou, I want to look good.
Um, and so I I do I do like thatpersonal wellness kind of
longevity space.
(37:50):
And so we're just keeping an eyeon that.
SPEAKER_05 (37:51):
You know what's incredible to me, Chuck, is that
um uh so every at least fourdays a week, I begin my day at a
franchise called Sweathouse,where I do sauna and cold
plunge.
Absolutely.
And when I travel, I look forsweathouse or something similar.
And even like, you know, we werewe were in San Diego and Los
Angeles, I couldn't findanything.
(38:13):
I'm like, come on, these arelike these are places that
should be embracing new trends.
Um, and you see so many peoplenow have cold plunges and saunas
in their homes.
Why do you think that perhapsthis sector is being adopted uh,
I guess, more slowly than thanmaybe we would expect it to
grow?
SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
Yeah, you know, I first of all, I think you're
finding it the big box clubs noware putting this inside their
stores.
I mean, there are some hotelsdoing it.
Obviously, the democratizationof this, you can have it at your
home are are coming that way.
Um, you know, I think it's aniche offering.
I think there are some savvierinvestors who are like, hey,
look, how does this play out?
Maybe through an economicrecession.
I mean, it's not a cheap pricepoint for the consumer.
You know, what do they start tocut if they look at their
(38:53):
spending?
And so I think some of the maybethe savier money is kind of
waiting on the sidelines to makesure this is durable and
sustainable through differenteconomic cycles.
So, and there are just so manyopportunities out there in
recovery and fitness andwellness and anti-aging.
So I just think thefragmentation of offerings, it
just means that we're all just,you know, trying to like find
(39:14):
more and more prospects open,which means that you know
different brands are opening alittle bit slower.
SPEAKER_05 (39:19):
Yeah, you know, Peter Atia was saying on his
podcast relative to coldplunges, he said, Look, I don't
know what the long-term benefitsare, but I know that I feel much
better after I do it.
Um, I know that it sort ofsteals me for the day.
And that's what I felt too, thaton the days where I do it, I
just, you know, again, I see itin my resting heart rate, which
stays lower the rest of the day.
(39:39):
And it does by doing those hardthings, it kind of chills
laughing at me.
She's like, Why are you alwaystalking about this?
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
So the fact that I would do a cold plunge isn't as
crazy.
Exactly.
It'll be cold deer very, verysoon.
You know what?
But that's what's frustrating.
Go back to the earlier point.
Like now I've heard like coldplunge for someone who's already
in shape is it doesn't do asgood.
And there's just so muchinformation out there.
I mean, look, if it makes youfeel good mentally and you're
seeing some results physically,then keep doing it.
(40:10):
As Joe mentioned earlier,there's something for everybody.
So wherever you are in yourjourney, I mean, snack, dabble,
try, explore, find somethingthat fits you.
And guess what?
It may work now for the nextthree, six, nine months.
And then you can, the good newsis there's so many offerings you
can try something else.
And so that's why there's neverbeen a better time to be a
consumer.
There's just so much to try anddo.
SPEAKER_05 (40:31):
All right, David, you're up.
SPEAKER_06 (40:34):
No, this is this is great.
I love this type of podcastbecause you're speaking my love
like my love language.
Um, I'm the same way.
I've I've tried it all.
I did bodybuilding, I was eatingseven, eight times a day, and
then now I'm doing one meal aday.
I feel great with one meal aday, but then I get I get
starved, I'm starving andswitching back and forth, but I
digress.
Um you've always emphasizedculture over hype.
(40:56):
How do you keep that messageresonating with the younger
entrepreneurs entering thefitness franchise?
SPEAKER_00 (41:01):
Oh man, that's a great question.
So uh what I'm proud of too isthat Dave and I have made the
leap from founder to leader.
You don't get many leaders orfounders who have been in the
brand this long as it reallyscales and also takes on private
equity money.
Um, they just can't make thatleap.
You know, founders run a startupdifferently than how they need
to run a large-scale maturebrand.
So we've had to continually kindof reinvent ourselves and to you
(41:25):
know develop ourselves asleaders.
Um, you know, obviously you wantto listen, you want to be very,
very self-aware.
Um, you want to surroundyourself with people who are
kind of helping you along theway.
Um, but for us in culture, Imean, we're very intentional
about it.
Hopefully, it's authentic to whoyou are.
I've always had to like be very,very clear on over
communication.
I think in today's noisy world,all of your stakeholders are
(41:48):
bombarded with noise.
And so, how do you cut throughthat?
And so we've done so manydifferent ways to communicate
with our stakeholders, annualconferences, vitals, town hall
meetings, internal podcasts.
I do all-staff emails.
In fact, in the book here, Ishare some of the favorite
all-staff emails I've had overthe years.
I really consider them as likelove letters from a CEO to their
(42:08):
stakeholders.
And so, communication.
I mean, listen, listen to yourears bleed, especially in
franchising.
You have to make sure yourfranchisees feel heard and
understood.
Look at all the data, consumerdata, franchise data, where are
the trends, what's going on, andthen listen to your team, and
then you've got to form a pointof view.
You know, get some smart peoplein the room and help you
prioritize and go.
So for me, it's always aboutlistening, always about taking
(42:29):
in information first, and thenyou know, charting your plan of
attack and then communicating.
Not just what's going on in thebusiness, but I'm a big-time
believer in you know, being abit vulnerable and talking about
life issues with ourstakeholders, not just business
issues.
And I think that's one of youknow the hearts and minds of our
of our stakeholders.
SPEAKER_05 (42:48):
I love that.
SPEAKER_03 (42:49):
Terrific.
SPEAKER_05 (42:50):
All right, Morgan, last but not least.
SPEAKER_03 (42:52):
Yeah, it's just something that was on my mind
while you were talking.
We have a friend, Catherine andI in California, that's opening
an 80,000 square foot pickleballcenter, which was a little
shocking.
Um, so my question to you is doyou feel that there are any
fitness trends that are just notgoing to be able to be around in
five, 10 years?
SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
That's a good question.
Uh, you know, Pilates is havingan incredible moment right now,
and I think long-term Pilateshere to stay.
I think yoga is making acomeback.
Strength training has alwaysstood the test of time.
I mean, I just, you know, Ican't imagine people are not
gonna want to continue to liftweights for strength and for all
those uh all those longevity andhealth reasons.
I don't want to name names, butI think there are some very,
very small niche offerings todaywithin fitness that maybe are
(43:35):
very like a sliver of amodality.
I just, you know, being asubscale brand in that category,
I just don't think, and they'revery, very trendy today.
I don't think they're gonnalast.
I just I hesitate to name thosebrands, but I I can see some in
fitness and even some, frankly,in uh the longevity space that I
think are just too narrow and ata price point where I just don't
think they're gonna sustainthemselves over time.
SPEAKER_05 (43:58):
I think the number one guidance we can give as
franchise consultants to peoplewho are exploring franchises is
when we look at for a franchise.
Do I need it?
And do I need it a lot?
As we look at those franchisesthat get the highest valuations,
we see that recurring revenue.
Uh, we see that great branding,and we see that profitability.
(44:19):
And certainly with AnytimeFitness and with all the brands
you have at purpose, um, theyfit that bill.
SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
Yeah, and you guys know, look, we've always been
long-term thinkers, we've alwaysreinvested in the brand.
Dave and I have always like, howdo we get better capabilities to
help our franchisees succeed?
I mean, the most importantaccelerant in the flywheel of
franchising is unit levelperformance.
If your franchisees make money,everything else takes care of
itself.
They will buy more territories,we refer more people, and the
(44:45):
growth happens.
And so we've always beenfranchisee focused, the current
franchisees.
And then, yes, we want to addwhite space, we want to sell
territories.
But first and foremost, helpyour franchisees ramp the
business, be successful, and Ipromise you the growth will
happen.
SPEAKER_05 (45:00):
That's awesome.
Chuck, this has been so great.
Thank you so much for being sogenerous with your time.
If you don't mind for thelisteners, what's the name of
your guys' new book?
One more time.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
It is called Fanchise Your Franchise.
Um, you can find me on LinkedInat Chuck Runyon.
I'm on Instagram at ChuckRunyon.
You, if anyone's interested inthe book, they can email uh
purpose.
No, I'm sorry, wait, franchiseat purposebrands.com.
Fanchise at purposebrands.com.
In fact, you guys, if you don'tmind, send me your home
addresses at franchise atpurposebrands.com and I'll send
(45:31):
you guys a book.
I'd love for you to read it.
Um we are just look, we lovehealth and fitness.
We also love franchising.
I mean, my gosh, this hasprovided opportunities for
people.
You know, for the last 75 years,it's been one of the great
unlock for people withgenerational wealth and
opportunities and you know,franchises of all types.
And so I love this industry.
Globally, I can tell you, it isgrowing and better than ever.
I'm so excited where this isgoing.
(45:52):
And so Dave and I spent a lot oftime.
Dave's a member of theInternational Franchise
Association, he's on theirboard.
So we are promoting andprotecting the franchise
industry.
We're promoting and protectingthe wellness industry.
And so we just care deeply aboutopportunities for people and
helping them unlock personalgrowth, purpose, and
generational wealth.
SPEAKER_05 (46:10):
That is so well said.
And for all of you listening,please do visit us at
thefranchiseinsiders.com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout any of the franchises that
Purpose Brands has, I encourageyou to go to our team page to
learn about our team.
Learn about Catherine, Brian,David, Morgan, and now Jay and
Carolina.
All of our friend, all of ourconsultants have been top five
franchise owners uh in theirsystem.
(46:32):
Um, multiple uh consultants onour team have had successful
exits.
So please do go learn about ourteam and whoever you want to
work with, we'd love to helpyou.
Go to thefranchiseinsiders.com.
And for this week on We Bought aFranchise, I'm Jack Johnson.
SPEAKER_04 (46:45):
I'm Jill Johnson.
SPEAKER_05 (46:46):
And we'll talk to you next time.
Thanks, everybody.
Hi everyone, welcome back to the We Bought a
Franchise podcast.
I'm Jack Johnson.
I'm Jill Johnson.
And today, boy, we've got agreat podcast for you guys
today.
Today, we have the legendaryChuck Runyon of Anytime Fitness
and Purpose Brands, OrangeTheory.
Chuck, I know I'm probablyleaving some of this out.
What Waxing the City 2?
(00:43):
Thank you for being on ourpodcast today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Yeah, thank you.
Along with the Bar Method andBasecamp Fitness.
So we have five franchise brandswithin the portfolio and excited
to be here today.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_05 (00:52):
Oh my gosh.
Excellent.
What a portfolio.
We've got so much to unpack.
And of course, we're joined byour esteemed panel of franchise
consultants.
We have Katherine Allen, BrianGross, David San Juan, and
Morgan Knowler joining us.
I think this is going to be aterrific podcast today.
And Chuck, you know, there's somuch that you've done in your
career.
And I'd love to hear your storyand kind of what got you
(01:15):
started.
Maybe just if you wouldn't mind,how did this all start?
How did how did anytime fitnessbegin?
What was the need that you saw?
How did how did you get into allof this?
SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
Yeah, it really goes back to when Dave and I were
like 20 years old.
So we have been likeentrepreneurs for 36 years.
And it's really important tonote that for the majority of
that time, we've been smallbusiness owners, which has like
instilled within us thisincredible empathy.
And it's like no matter how bigpurpose brand gets, we have the
(01:44):
soul of a small business owner.
We understand how hard it is torun a small business and that
there are never enough resourcesto like to help.
And so that's why with ourfranchise owners, man, we know
what it's like.
And so we have so much empathyand we provide so much support,
both emotional and operationalsupport.
But when we were 20, we westarted selling memberships and
health clubs here inMinneapolis, St.
Paul.
(02:05):
We became very good at it and weknew how to like market and do
membership blitzes.
So from you know, for 15 years,from 1990 to 2005, we ran a
marketing company that wouldwork with health clubs all
across the US, Canada, even inAustralia.
And we would do membershipblitzes for multi-purpose health
clubs around the country.
And we generate hundreds,sometimes thousands of
memberships.
And our company got paid acommission based on performance.
(02:26):
So we've always been performancedriven.
We've always had to like earnit.
And then in the late 90s, wecame across some distressed
health clubs that had aracquetball whirlpool sauna, you
know, 40, 50, 60,000 squarefeet.
And they were going to close.
We would buy them very cheap.
We'd, you know, remodel them andput in our sales and marketing
expertise and take a club thatmaybe had a few hundred members
to a few thousand members.
(02:48):
And we'd end up selling them fora profit.
And it was during the ownershipof those larger clubs where we
realized that, you know,racquetball is declining,
aerobics was declining at thetime, pools, whirlpool saunas,
all that stuff was beingunderutilized.
And we're like, gosh, we've got50,000, 60,000 square feet, but
most people are coming in forcardio and strength and nautilus
and personal training.
And so we kept thinking aboutthe idea of, all right, we
(03:09):
should we should create more ofan express club.
And but we didn't really knowwhat the differentiator was.
So I went to visit one of ourteams in Tullahoma, Tennessee, a
very small town and outside ofuh Nashville.
And we were marketing, we werecreating memberships for a small
town club, and the owner wasgiving away hardware keys to his
members.
And I remember walking to theparking lot, calling my partners
(03:31):
at the time, Dave being one ofthem, saying, look, this is it.
We can create like a keylessclub that is efficient.
And you know, back in 2002 or2001, we started this, you know,
remember the the this type oftechnology didn't exist.
Um there were no smartphones,right?
We're using floppy disk at thetime.
And so we really in 2002, inMay, launched the first
technology-enabled fitnesscenter, using technology to give
(03:55):
our members 24-7 convenience,come in anytime they want,
surveillance system, and we gaveaway key fobs, but it allowed
the owner to provide 24-7access, but not always staff the
club.
And we took all the safetyrequirements.
And so our payroll in our bigstores used to be like 40% or
more.
And in anytime fitness, it'd be10% because you can selectively
staff.
And so that technology enabledus to grow very fast.
(04:18):
And we look, we didn't know muchabout franchising at the time,
but we're quick learners.
We started club number one as afranchise, and so the genesis
was the differentiator oftechnology meets fitness, and
then our investment infranchising in day one.
SPEAKER_05 (04:34):
I mean, it's just such an incredible story.
And you guys were named thenumber one franchise in the
world uh in 2016 by EntrepreneurMagazine.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Well, two years in a row, by the way.
And I like to say that, youknow, I'm from Minnesota.
We are the most winning ispurple team.
The Vikings are number two,because in franchising, that's
like the equivalent to winningthe Super Bowl, which we won
twice.
And as you know, teams fromMinnesota don't win the Super
Bowl.
So we are proud of that award.
By the way, we've also receivedlike best place to work in
(05:04):
Minnesota multiple times.
We're super proud of our cultureand winning that talent award
and being a great place to workand the lifestyle we deliver
franchisees.
SPEAKER_05 (05:12):
So the world, and it's interesting, we had, I
don't know if you know Josh Yorkfrom Jim Guys.
He's growing up an incrediblefranchise.
We we had him on the podcastlast week.
And and Chuck, I'd say for halfof it, we just kind of talked
about cold plunging and saunaand recovery.
And it seems to me that fitnesshas changed a lot in the last 10
(05:34):
years.
You know, you look at the thingsthat we're doing now versus what
we were doing 10 years ago.
Strength has moved into thelead, right?
More strength, less cardio, moresteps.
You don't need to go runyourself to death anymore.
Now it's more focused onbuilding up that sort of you
know high-intensity workouts andthen recovery with sauna and
cold plungers.
I'd love to hear your take onwhere things are going, where
(05:57):
things have changed and what yousee happening out there.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
Absolutely love it.
Look, we all wish COVID neverhappened, but the the I guess
silver lining is all thesewellness conversations have
accelerated.
And if you think about our agingpopulation, I love the narrative
around longevity and strengthtraining and quality of life and
health span, right?
It's not about six-pack abs,it's not about necessarily
vanity, it's about the mentalside of fitness and uh adding
(06:23):
quality to our life because uhhealth is an asset.
So I love it.
There has never been a bettertime to be a fitness consumer.
You can find things free onYouTube, you can find a very
cheap club nearby, you can finda boutique for the modality that
you love, you can find anexpensive club, you can find a
convenient club.
You wearables, I mean, it'snever ever been a better time.
And therefore, it's also neverbeen a better time in this
(06:44):
industry to be an entrepreneuror to be a franchisee.
And so I love where this isgoing.
The best years are ahead of us.
If you think about all theconversations around
preventative wellness and thisintersection between medical and
fitness coming together, hugeopportunities for everyone in
fitness and every singleconsumer.
So, I mean, it's the rightconversations to have.
And I love it.
Look, I guarantee you the nextdecade's gonna be an incredible
(07:07):
opportunity for everyone inwellness.
SPEAKER_05 (07:09):
I just got the the whoop um last week.
SPEAKER_04 (07:13):
And uh you have it, stop talking about them.
SPEAKER_05 (07:16):
Well, so yesterday I took we both Joel and I just did
our you know, what semi-annual?
We get them twice a year.
SPEAKER_04 (07:21):
No, this is our annual one.
SPEAKER_05 (07:23):
But like she does our blood twice a year.
Yes.
Okay, so so Woop checked sevensixty-five markers, right?
Um and I had 55 from the doctor,and I inputted all of it into
Whoop, and then Whoop said,okay, well, now based upon your
sleep, based upon your exercise,based upon your all this stuff,
here's what I'm gonna recommendfor you.
I'm like, just like you said,wow, what a great time for for
(07:45):
you know, fitness and data andall this great stuff.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
The level of personalization is remarkable
and only getting better.
The wearables are so good inthis space.
And then the democratization ofservices like getting your blood
panel, but then getting them ina way that's understandable and
now taking actionable steps, andthat is like never before, you
know, peptides, personalization,supplements.
And for us now to like take thatinformation and give it to our
(08:10):
medical professionals to get theright care that is very
preventative.
I mean, I'm telling you, it'sonly going to get better.
If you look at health kit,right, it's very portable.
I can share that now with mymedical professional or my
physical therapist or mynutritionist, whoever I want.
And so I'm telling you, we it'suh this level of personalization
and the ability now to maybemonetize that in the future with
maybe lower insurance costs oryou know, brand deals from you
(08:31):
know, supplements or uh, youknow, getting your blood tests,
et cetera, it's it's only gonnaget better.
So I love where it's going.
SPEAKER_05 (08:38):
We are so excited to have um your brands as a part of
our portfolio.
We've just started working withAnytime Fitness over the past, I
think, three months or so.
Uh, I believe we're addingOrange Theory to our inventory
for all of you listening.
We should be able to offer thatin the next couple of weeks.
We're excited about that.
Um, team, do you guys havequestions you'd like to start
(08:59):
diving in?
SPEAKER_03 (09:00):
Yes, hi, Chuck.
Morgan Knowler here.
Um, I am curious how PurposeBrands uh evaluates whether one
of these is scalable.
Like what data do you use?
And how do you determine what'spart of Purpose Brands?
SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
It's a great question.
And we are still eagerly lookingat the what I'd call the
personal care space.
Um Wax in the City is a brandthat we acquired uh, you know,
pre-COVID.
Uh it's doing well.
That gives us permission to kindof be in that personal care
space.
And I think if you look atbeauty and skin and anti-aging,
longevity, and med spa, and allthose things, there are going to
be some winners that we'regonna, you know, kind of keep
(09:34):
our eyes on to potentiallyacquire.
Um, it we definitely has to beof something of purpose, you
know, something that we believein that makes lives better.
That that's a that's an absolutesomething we won't uh compromise
on.
And then, you know, it's got tobe a the proof of concept is
there.
I mean, we're probably we're atthe size now.
We need to have a brand that hasshown proof of concept, you
(09:55):
know, probably has at least 100or more units as a uh, you know,
has growth potential and is alsoportable internationally.
I mean, one of the biggestassets of purpose brands is we
have about 18 master franchiseesaround the world.
You know, people don't knowthis, but we have more locations
for any time fitness locatedoutside the US than inside the
US.
I mean, over 3,000 outside theUS.
In fact, if we open up 500 clubsthis year, 75 to 80% of those
(10:18):
will be outside the US.
So we need something that'sportable so we can leverage our
relationships around the world.
Um, and then we need somethingthat has shown proof of concept.
It's a good product, it's a goodservice.
Now we can just add ourcapabilities to make it grow
faster.
SPEAKER_03 (10:34):
Great, thank you.
And also I was thinking aboutthe franchisees you have in your
system and how fitness andwellness is, you know, it's it's
a very competitive market.
What KPIs do you recommend thatthey pay attention to in order
to stay ahead of the curve andrelevant?
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So every brand, of course, has adifferent set of KPIs.
Um, and so our fitness businesscoaches, I mean, you know, have
these KPIs, the owner has it aswell.
And so, you know, when peoplecome through like our discovery
days, we talk about those KPIs.
Like, what do we track?
Why do we track them?
And more importantly, how do wemanage them?
How do we measure them?
(11:09):
How do we make sure that ifyou're doing well, you can be
best in class?
If you're not doing well, how doyou change that?
So, I mean, we have very typicalKPIs on like personal training
percentage, average membervalue, you know, close rate.
I mean, all these things arevery typical.
But it's really important for usto manage from those KPIs to
make sure our owners understandit.
And more importantly, they knowhow to take action and get their
team to take action around itand reward those.
(11:30):
And uh, at the end of the day,we try to benchmark those within
our networks you know whereyou're best in class or where
you need some improvement.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Excellent.
Thank you.
This is Catherine Allen.
Hey, Chuck.
Um, what advice would you havefor someone in the corporate
fitness space looking totransition into franchise
ownership?
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
Well, I mean, typically our some of our most
successful franchisees have cometo us with fitness industry
experience.
So if they already have somecorporate fitness experience, I
think that's a massive asset toput to work.
Um, but like any franchisee,first of all, they really should
get to know their franchise orget to know the people on the
team.
When you come to Discovery Day,like spend time with the
marketing leader, the realestate leader, the you know, all
(12:15):
the primary subject matterexperts that are going to help
drive this business and get anyou know, get a feel for the
culture and the sentiment thatthe franchise or has and the
relationship they have withfranchisees, as well as do your
homework, call franchisees.
But you know, going back to thatKPI conversation, I mean, talk
about the KPIs and you know, howwill I be measured for success?
How do I change these?
(12:36):
I mean, really get to understandthe business.
I think the KPIs that afranchise or measures and a
franchisee has tells a lot aboutwhat's important and see kind of
go into it eyes wide open is allright, here, you know, if I know
I need to acquire members andengage those members, support
those members, let's look at theKPIs that do that.
SPEAKER_05 (12:52):
You know, it's interesting.
Um, real quick point yesterday,I love what you said, Chuck,
about call franchisees.
So we're working with a clientthat's talking to a very, I
don't want to say very, but afairly young franchise.
And the representative texted melast night and he said, Hey,
listen, there's something wrongwith your client.
They say to me they're not goingto sign unless they can talk to
(13:13):
at least five randomfranchisees.
What's up with that?
And I said, That's my guidance.
I make sure we make sure atfranchise insiders and all of
us, Chuck, the whole purpose ofour brand is we are franchise
owners helping future franchiseowners.
All of us are current or formerfranchise owners.
And I said to the rep, look,that's our guidance.
We want them to talk to highperformers, low performers,
medium performers, even someonethat's left the system.
(13:36):
Because yes, the item 19 and theitem 20 and the item six and
seven tell a story, but nothingtells a better story than
franchisees.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
100% agree.
It's funny.
Um there was a side opportunityI was kind of looking for on
behalf of a group of investorfriends.
And so I made some phone callspersonally to this brand I was
looking at, not in the Wilbusspace.
And you know, I know whatquestions ask.
And at the end of the day, I didenough diligence and I and I
called people off the referencesheet.
By the way, they werefranchisees, they gave me some
(14:07):
of their financials.
And at the end of the day, thatgroup did not decide to do the
investment because it justwasn't good enough.
And so I 100% agree.
Like, visit or call franchiseeson or off the reference sheet.
You the, you know, what we tellour sales team to do is like,
given the situation of theprospect, maybe the type of
market, the type of partnershipor kind of the competitive make,
(14:28):
like, try to find them somereferences where they have this
specific competitor or they havea partnership like this.
And you know, provide a curatedlist.
But the but the prospect shouldalways do some of their own
diligence as well, for sure.
And, you know, we we prideourselves in providing a soft
landing.
Look, when a club or studio orfranchise is not going well, we
try to help resell.
We will help our franchisee tothe last out to the last inning.
(14:50):
And so try to talk to some ofthose people.
But also, you guys know this,you know, everyone in business
has bad days.
And we when you are afranchisee, if you're having a
bad day, and sometimes it comesout that way.
So you just gotta, you know, ifyou do some accumulative
diligence, you take all of thatand versus maybe a one-off call.
You know, if someone's great orsomeone's bad, just you know,
look at all of it in totality.
SPEAKER_04 (15:12):
Yeah, we always talk about how, you know, it's
important to talk to everybody,but everyone's in a different
place in this whole process.
So one thing we always talkabout is how your first, you
know, 12 to 18 months can be themost stressful, the most
difficult.
Um, so if you're starting, let'ssay, an anytime fitness from
scratch, what do those firstlike 12 months look like?
SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
Well, assuming you, you know, you sign the franchise
agreement and we have all thereal estate analytics and the
broker network, you know, andwe've got to help you find a
good site.
That is a very criticaldecision.
So we've got all the vendors andall the help to do that.
You know, once you get that sitesolidified and negotiate a
lease, and we have a wonderfulvendor to help do that because
no one should ever negotiatetheir lease on their own, you
know, make sure they hire anattorney.
(15:52):
But assuming you have the site,the lease signed, we give a
design book and projectmanagement to help you do the
design process to get that storeopen.
But the beauty about thewellness space, specifically
with any time fitness, is youcan pre-sale memberships before
you open.
And so you can open up yourdoors.
Our average club opens up withover 150 members.
So you've already got somecapital, you've already got some
recurring revenue booked, right?
(16:13):
We sign people up on 12, 18, or24 month agreements.
And so with that recurring, sothat's a wonderful way to start
your business when you'vealready got, say, a couple
hundred members.
And by the way, we've had we'vehad clubs join up with hundreds
of members, even over athousand.
So it's, you know, really gettactical.
I mean, there's never a bettertime when you're the brand new
business in town.
There's so much local PR,there's so much curiosity, so
(16:33):
much excitement.
We really want our franchiseesto get off to a good start.
So no matter what business, I ifyou're in a flower business, if
you're in a restaurant business,really maximize that grand
opening that first six monthsbecause everyone's excited about
your business.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Chuck, uh Brian Gross here.
And I'm going to completelydisagree with something you said
earlier.
Um I go to the gym daily andit's purely for vanity.
Right.
So uh so some of us some of usare still out there.
Um but uh but uh on a moreserious note, you know, one of
the cool things about some ofyour brands, they've been around
(17:06):
a long time, right?
So you've seen a lot of economiccycles, ups and downs.
You've seen a lot of fitnessfads come and go.
You know, so how do you set upyour brands for that long-term
success?
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
Yeah, it's a great question, by the way.
In 23 years of anytime fitness,we've been through the startup
years, the great recession.
A lot of people don't rememberthose times, right, when the
banking industry was collapsingand you know, landlords didn't
want to make any deals.
We couldn't look, it was toughto get financing.
We've been through what I'd callthis digital, right, ubiquitous
revolution where everyone, thephone now has become the number
(17:38):
one thing in everyone's life.
We've been through so manydifferent types of competition.
We've been through COVID.
And so we've kind of seen itall.
And you know, we we have to beincredibly re-adaptable,
incredibly resilient, you know,incredibly strong, not just
operationally, but emotionallyfor our franchise owners.
And we we provide emotionalsupport sometimes as much as we
provide operational support.
And so we talk about EQ a lotwith our team and how necessary
(18:00):
that is to listen and to comfortand to you know to just offer
that emotional support to ourfranchise owners.
Um, you know, the we adapt tothe times.
I mean, obviously, strengthtraining has never been more
important, but there were timeswhen people were kind of into
the studio sector.
And so we've done things likesmall group training, we've done
you know, in-person one-on-onecoaching, we are now doing
virtual coaching.
(18:21):
We've offered, we've addednutrition and recovery, as is uh
Jack started earlier in thisconversation.
I mean, we have saunas in someof our clubs now.
We have red light therapy insome of our clubs, and so we
want to be very adaptable.
And so our offerings have kindof like been a bit elastic in
the size of our clubs.
We've added functional training.
Um, and so over the years, wecontinue to adapt and evolve our
(18:44):
model.
Uh, we we did a deal with AppleFitness Plus.
Every single one of our membersgets Apple Fitness Plus as part
of their membership so thatdigital, right?
They can do whether they're in aclub or outside of a club, they
now have you know every modalityat Apple Fitness Clubs.
They're an incredible partner.
So we just continue to adapt towhat the consumers' needs and
expectations are.
SPEAKER_05 (19:03):
Chuck, is there are there owners that diversify from
Anytime to Orange Theory andvice versa?
How much of that are you guysseeing?
SPEAKER_00 (19:12):
You know, the merger is relatively new.
I mean, it's about a year and ahalf, so we have not seen that
much yet.
Okay.
Uh internationally for certainthat's going to happen as our
masters kind of grow andmaturity, they're going to have
be multi-brand in theirportfolio.
Uh, we have some owners now whodo like Basecamp at any time
because that's been aroundlonger, Wax in the City, Bar
Methods.
We have some cross-polination.
And some of our owners now areactually, you know, becoming
(19:34):
with private equity back,they're looking for um other
offerings even outside ofwellness.
So it's, I would say it'sbecoming more common.
But as you look at our entireportfolio, it's still a small
percentage of owners.
SPEAKER_05 (19:44):
And and that's a great point.
And for our listeners that are,you know, private equity and
looking for roll-ups withinfranchise communities, is that
something that you guys are opento?
SPEAKER_00 (19:54):
Yeah, huge trend right now going on within our
network.
And I think all our franchising,I think private equity loves
franchising, the predictabilityof recurring revenue.
They love to back solidoperators who have it with a
proven track record.
And you can do some roll-ups,right?
You can get that eBay arbitrage,you can buy a single unit or two
or three units for a much lesslower multiple.
And once you put in a platform,you get a higher multiple.
So I think that's a trendhappening within our network and
(20:16):
across franchising.
And look, you know, for privateequity, assuming you pick the
right partner, they add capital,you know, they add capability,
they can be a really goodpartner.
So it's a way to professionalizeyour operation and grow quicker.
SPEAKER_05 (20:30):
And especially if you can recapitalize a very
effective owner.
Um, and okay, now here, you'vedone a great job growing these
five locations.
Now here's 20 million.
Let's go do it.
Let's go take some of thoseunderperformers, let's buy them
and grow them.
And and and for everybody wins,right?
You guys win, the item 19 getsbeefier.
Um, those owners that wereunderperforming get an exit, and
(20:52):
private equity and the owner,they get acquisition partners.
I mean, that's where to me, amature system like the brands
that you guys have, that that wefeel so good about connecting
investors to you guys because weknow there are built-in
acquisition and exit partnersfrom day one.
So we'll know at month 18, asJill mentioned, of being open,
you've got options to eithergrow or sell to someone else and
(21:15):
go do something else.
SPEAKER_00 (21:16):
You nailed it.
Nothing to add there, you nailedit.
Awesome.
SPEAKER_05 (21:20):
David, what do you got?
Hey Chuck.
SPEAKER_06 (21:23):
David Santa Holland here.
Um, first of all, I think I'vespent money in every single one
of your clubs.
So uh I'm one of the gym rats.
I I've actually my last gymmembership was at Anytime
Fitness in a small town calledLiberty Hill, Texas.
Uh that was the only gym around,so it's great.
Um talking about uh multi-unitoperations, how do you maintain
(21:43):
brand alignment when franchiseesgrow into multi-unit operators
with their own local identity?
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Oh boy, that's a great question.
And first let me say, you know,one of the reasons we started
Anytime Fitness too is we sawall these underserved markets,
specifically rural to like, youknow, second or third tier.
I mean, we might be the onlyclub in a town of five, ten,
fifteen, twenty thousand people.
And so if you think about thehealth in rural America, it's
it's not that great.
And so for us to provide whatI'd call big gym equipment, big
(22:10):
gym services in a smaller gym ina in a market that can only
we're probably the only type ofgym that can be sustainable.
I love it.
I'm so proud of the fact that weoffer, you know, anytime fitness
in our services in very smallmarkets, by the way, around the
world now.
So I love that.
Your question's great.
So if I'm being honest, um, youknow, we started in 2002.
(22:30):
Our business model was reallyeasy to replicate.
And so after we launched,everyone saw it.
We had dozens and dozens ofcopycatters.
I mean, go around 5,000 squarefeet, shove it full of
equipment, create thistechnology package, and open.
And so we were in this crazymarket race.
So if I'm being honest, we soldto anyone because we wanted to
win the market share race.
We wanted to be the number oneplayer.
(22:51):
It worked out.
We're here today.
We are like 40 times bigger thanour number two competitor, and
uh, you know, most of thoseother competitors went out of
business.
But because we grew so fast, um,if I as I look back, we did not
uh have the uniformity and brandstandards and enforcement that
we should have.
And so today, uh, you know, youcan go to two anytime fitnesses
and unfortunately have not thesame type of standardized
(23:13):
experience.
We are much better at today thanwe ever have been before.
And like internationally, ourclubs are better as a network
than they are domestically, andwe're getting better
domestically.
So but it's a mistake I I madeand we made as a leader to not
strictly we could have done bothat the same time.
So, but today, look, it's farmore standardized, far more
uniformity.
(23:33):
We have a great deal of respectfor what localization is
necessary, but at the end of theday, we want every any-time
fitness to look and feel andoperate very, very similarly.
So, you know, we're our owners,community events, you know, some
of the how they engage thecommunity, uh, obviously some of
the culture that they have isobviously nuanced to their
community and their leadership,but we're trying to be a little
bit more standardized than we'veever been before.
(23:55):
And by the way, I think one ofthe if you think about
international growth, we call itglobal.
What do we globalize in theexperience that is absolutely
standard across every anytimefitness in the world?
And then what do we need tolocalize?
And if you're in Japan, ifyou're in Spain, if you're in
London, you know, there are somelocal nuances we have to be very
respectful of and we have toaccommodate locally.
So there are some things we weneed to allow to make sure that
(24:18):
brand thrives in that region ofthe world.
SPEAKER_05 (24:21):
And Chuck, did you mention on the international
front, are you guys doing uhmasters or is it just you know
singles and multi-unit?
SPEAKER_00 (24:28):
Uh master franchisees.
So for instance, in our first umdeal was Australia, 2008.
They essentially buy the rightsto subfranchise in Australia.
So they sell and support theirown franchisees.
We support the masterfranchisee.
And so Australia, AnytimeFitness is the number one brand
in Australia.
As we speak, they're havingtheir annual conference in Gold
(24:49):
Coast right now, and um they arecrushing it.
They're by the way, they'venever had better numbers in
terms of member count, averagemember value, total remit.
They are absolutely crushing it.
And we they're our partners, butagain, they sell and support
their own network of franchiseowners.
SPEAKER_05 (25:03):
Chuck, I've got a funny story for you.
So prior to starting franchiseinsiders, Jill, myself,
Catherine, we were at afranchise which is now known as
the Key, which is in-home healthcare.
Um and our first masterfranchisee was in Australia too,
because Catherine on herhoneymoon, where did you meet,
(25:23):
where did you meet thatfranchisee?
SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
Uh in Bali at a restaurant bar.
Docker.
And I started talking to him uhabout his his dad, and he had
dementia.
And so he was, you know, Istarted talking about our
dementia care and all thesethings, and next thing we know,
connected him with Jack and hebecame our master franchise
(25:48):
owner.
SPEAKER_05 (25:50):
Very cool.
It's amazing how often Australiais the first master, master
franchise.
SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
Well, they're a very franchise-centered culture.
I think per capita, they'rethey're maybe the highest or one
of the highest countries offranchises per capita.
So they're very, veryfranchise-centric.
SPEAKER_02 (26:05):
Yeah, I think for us it's the home care there is so
different with their home carepackages and how it's run.
It's very different than the theUS.
So um they those owners did verywell.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
Well, it's funny.
Remember, we started here in2002, and around there were so
many competitors heredomestically, but around the
world, people took notice.
And so in Australia, we were notthe first to market in our type
of business model.
There were competitors there.
But I give so much credit to ourAustralian partners, they
out-executed our competition.
We are by far in our the numberone fitness brand in Australia.
They're just crushing it.
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
It's amazing.
I feel like people in Australiawould be very fitness conscious.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:41):
Uh, you'd be surprised.
People have that, but you know,the the mental health in
Australia is a big deal.
Uh, the obesity rate andunhealthy is probably a little
bit more than you think.
Um, and so they're not ashealthy as uh what yeah, as the
brand appears.
By the way, I love Australia.
There's some of my my bestbuddies are down there, but uh
yeah, they they they're likeevery other country.
They you know they're being toosedentary, not eating the right
(27:02):
types of food, so they need moreanytime.
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
Too much vegemite, too much vegemite.
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
Exactly.
100%.
SPEAKER_05 (27:09):
Yeah.
Well, and then looking at yourLinkedIn um profile, Chuck, I
can see that you know, health,wellness, nutrition, that's a
big part of uh of your, I wouldsay, passion, perhaps, and in
helping to educate the world onwhat's right in terms of uh uh
of nutrition.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
I've used a term called health first, brand
second, meaning that I want tospend my time promoting uh a
healthier life.
Uh that means we lobby withmembers of Congress and and uh
you know policymakers around theworld.
Look, it's just you know, weneed to get people healthier.
Despite the abundance ofwellness offerings, we are an
unhealthy society.
(27:47):
And and by the way, poor healtharound the world.
And so I just want people towork out.
I just want people to behealthy.
So if you choose anytimefitness, awesome.
But if you choose another brand,I just want you to choose, I
just want you to be healthy andlike live healthier behaviors.
So I really care about healthfirst, brand second.
And if the world is gettinghealthier, all of us in this
industry are gonna benefit.
Um, but I just want healthiersocieties, I want healthier
people around the world.
SPEAKER_05 (28:09):
And it feels like that, you know, it feels like
we've got some of the rightmessaging going out there.
And I again, I think we'regetting so much smarter about
this.
When I think back to like whenyou when you and I first met in
2007, I mean, we didn't think atall about nutrition.
You know, we we wanted protein,but it was like if you look at
like the protein shakes we hadback then, the stuff that was in
(28:30):
those pro the gums and thefillers, and now we're getting
so much more knowledgeable aboutlet's go with less ingredients,
simpler ingredients, cleaneringredients.
Um, and you know, it's so coolbecause now I can just say to
ChatGPT, what do you think ofthe ingredients of this shake?
And it will say, Well, this isgood and this is not good.
So we, like you've saidrepeatedly on this podcast,
we're in such a neat environmentnow because we have so much
(28:52):
data.
It's just executing the data.
SPEAKER_04 (28:54):
I think it's important too to have different
types of fitness because youknow, once you kind of find your
passion and what you love, likethose orange theory people,
they're they're hardcore.
Like I'm impressed.
They're up every morning,they're going, like they're
dedicated.
And, you know, I mean, I'msomeone that one time I couldn't
find a parking spot at the gym,so I left.
(29:14):
Um, but it was a long time ago.
I, you know, but it was until Ifound something that I loved,
you know, until I startedgetting into different things.
So I think having the varietyand the fact that we have that
now, you know, you have orangetheater is great for people who
are competitive.
You have bar method or you know,something like that that's going
to be a little bit maybe lessintense for people looking for a
(29:35):
different type of thing.
I just think it's amazing howmuch variety we have.
And I love that you guys havethat.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
Well, thank you.
And look, you guys are allfitness enthusiasts.
You understand wellness, youunderstand how important it is
mentally and physically.
And I'm a hardwired optimist.
However, I also understand thereality.
And the reality is eight out often people are not very healthy.
They're not, they're not amember of a commercial health
club, they're not seeing muchactivity during the week.
And the reality is, you know,this technology is allowing us
(30:01):
to be sedentary.
And unfortunately, it's we'reconsuming the things that are
making us mentally fragile ormentally in a worse place.
And so mental health, as youknow, is becoming a big issue.
Uh, people are sitting too muchand and not burning off the
calories, and um we have what Iconsider very low nutritional
IQ.
The average person doesn'treally understand.
(30:22):
The caloric intake.
They underestimate the calorieson their plate and they
overestimate what movement andburn.
And so if you don't have thatknowledge, it's it's really, I
mean, your body IQ is very, verylow for most people.
They don't understand yourresting metabolic rate.
And so you guys get it, but I'mtelling you, it's the health for
most people is getting worse,not better, despite the abundant
(30:44):
growth of our industry.
SPEAKER_01 (30:46):
So, Chuck, on you know, along those lines, right,
we have access to moreinformation than than ever.
You know, that we've made a lotof development.
We've we've hit on some of thosetrends here.
Um, you know, where do you seethis space going over the next
five, 10 years?
SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
Oh wow, you nailed it, man.
So if you look at our watch forour January marketing campaign
for Nytime Fitness becausethere's too much information out
there.
It's too noisy.
Consumers don't know who totrust.
They don't know what is reallythe truth.
And so we're leaning into that.
Uh, I think AI can, of course,help us, but at the end of the
day, people still need a humantouch.
(31:20):
They need a high five from theircoach, uh, they need a hug.
Sometimes they need that kick inthe butt.
They need to be heldaccountable.
Accountability is hard intoday's environment.
So we're really trying to likebalance the right AI for
personalization, but alsooftentimes it tells our reminds
our coaches or our club staffthe messages that a person needs
to hear.
And we can personalize thatmessage.
So it's kind of like this humanAI um combination that we're
(31:43):
trying to zero in on.
And so people know who to trust.
We we want them to be able totrust for local New Time
Fitness, the content we providethem that's right for them, and
the coach that they meet withbecause we understand where
they're at, and that comes fromtaking in their biometrics,
taking their behaviors, like wecan take in their wearable
information.
We've got body scanners with 40different biometrics.
So we can take in thatinformation, be be hyper
(32:06):
personal, and then make sure tocustomize a plan that meets
their lifestyle and meets theirneeds.
And so I'm not saying we'rewe're where we need to be today,
but that's where we're going.
And there's never been more abetter time for consumer data,
and we can use it for the rightpurposes.
And so I'm super excited aboutthat.
But you nailed it, man.
There's so much information outthere.
People don't know who to trustor what to do.
SPEAKER_05 (32:27):
Chuck, one of my favorite sayings is help enough
people get what they want, andyou will get what you want.
And how good must it feel foryou to have created this
incredible brand that has beenvoted the best franchise in the
world, to have helped so manypeople.
Like what you have done hashelped so many people.
What does that feel like whenyou put your head down on the
(32:49):
pillow at the end of the night?
I mean, that must feel so good.
SPEAKER_00 (32:52):
Yeah, it's funny you say that phrase.
I always use it all the time.
Is to put your head down on thepillow, knowing that the work
you did today helped others, Ican't put a price on it.
Like, I mean, purpose brands,that is like who we are.
And so the fact that the harderwe work, the more people around
the world have access to health,the harder we work, the more
jobs we create around the world.
(33:13):
Where, by the way, for somepeople around the world, you
know, you get to like SoutheastAsia, where jobs aren't as
abundant and maybe jobs forwomen aren't as abundant.
I mean, we empower people aroundthe world to provide franchise
opportunities to democratize andmake affordable franchise
opportunities.
So we get to like triple dip onconsumers, on our franchisees
(33:35):
and club staff, and on our ownemployees.
Oh man, it is soul enriching.
It's calories for the soul.
And so at the end of the day,it's like the purpose is very,
very strong in what we do.
I can't imagine doing it morebecause we get to help people.
The harder we, you know, nomatter what, I don't care how
hard it gets, what problemswe're trying to solve, if we
solve it, we help more people.
SPEAKER_05 (33:55):
So well said.
SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
By the way, I can't help but plug this.
Just came out.
Dave and I wrote a book calledFranchise Your Franchise.
And so, look, we've never wantedto build an ordinary franchise.
We wanted something that likeliterally lights people up and
uh from from uh you know, wintheir hearts, win their mind,
win their soul.
And so I'm gonna send you guys acopy because like and uh we just
(34:19):
want people to build like afranchise, like you know, get as
passionate about your job as youdo like your college team or
your sports team or yourfavorite band.
I mean, let's really emotionallyengage our stakeholders, unlike
other other opportunities.
SPEAKER_05 (34:35):
That's great.
Yeah, that's fabulous.
Is there is there Kindle andaudio versions of that book too,
Chubb?
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
It is so hot off the press.
We literally created this forour franchise owners at our our
Boston conference two weeks ago.
So probably early 2026, therewill be those options, but right
now it's just a good oldrudimentary archaic book.
Love it, love it.
SPEAKER_05 (34:55):
That's awesome.
Well, Chuck, you've been sogenerous with your time today.
What I'd like to do now is maybejust do a quick round the horn
uh last questions.
Um I'm gonna go ahead and uhCatherine, you you draw first.
SPEAKER_02 (35:08):
So gosh, why?
Why first?
So much.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chuck, for joining.
Honestly.
Better first than last.
A pleasure to have you ontoday's call.
One question I didn't get to askuh that I wanted to was as women
lead more in the fitness andwell wellness space, how is
(35:30):
Purpose Brand supportingdiversity and leadership
development across its systems?
SPEAKER_00 (35:37):
Oh gosh, I love that question.
I'm telling you, maybe one ofthe secret ingredients of our
success over the last 23 yearshas been that the majority of
people of influence within ourcompany have been women.
Look, we are a brand of EQ.
We're a brand that really needsto communicate.
And generally speaking, um,women have strong communicators.
(35:58):
They listen, they're willing toengage their heart, they have
empathy, they they just, at theend of the day, they have a high
EQ.
So we've created an atmosphere,an environment where with
unlimited PTO, like we as I'm aparent of four, Dave's a parent
of five, we never want ouremployees to miss those
important moments.
So like we don't track it, likeyou do what you got to do.
And so we've been an amazingplace for people of all walks of
(36:20):
life to work, but specificallyum women.
And you will not find a morediverse franchise brand, at
least in wellness, than we are,because we operate in over 40
countries.
We operate in all sevencontinents, and so we've got
people from all walks of lifethat are operating our fitness
centers or working with ourministers or working as vendors.
(36:41):
We're very, very rich indiversity and uh opportunities
for for everybody.
And so I'm super, super proud ofthat.
SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
I love that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (36:51):
Ryan?
All right, Chuck.
So there's a lot in the uh inthe fitness industry.
So right now you're an investor,and what's a brand, a vertical
in the in the space that youwould love to have in your
portfolio that you don't haveright now?
SPEAKER_00 (37:07):
Ooh, um, I I don't I don't really want to name Ames
for Zook, but I'm telling you,the there are so many
opportunities and what I'd calllongevity, anti-aging.
Um, you know, it it's a kind ofa new, but there's so much
fragmentation, and I'd saythere's a whole lot of players
out there, and eventually thereare going to be some winners.
And so we're giving this time tolet them let's see who the
(37:30):
winners are.
We're just at the size now.
We're I mean, if you're not atfive or ten million dollars in
EBITDA or something, if youdon't have some scale and some
some proven portability, we'rejust not ready yet.
But I'm keeping an eye on thisspace, probably for personal
reasons too, is at my age,right?
And longevity and and and likeyou, I want to look good.
Um, and so I I do I do like thatpersonal wellness kind of
longevity space.
(37:50):
And so we're just keeping an eyeon that.
SPEAKER_05 (37:51):
You know what's incredible to me, Chuck, is that
um uh so every at least fourdays a week, I begin my day at a
franchise called Sweathouse,where I do sauna and cold
plunge.
Absolutely.
And when I travel, I look forsweathouse or something similar.
And even like, you know, we werewe were in San Diego and Los
Angeles, I couldn't findanything.
(38:13):
I'm like, come on, these arelike these are places that
should be embracing new trends.
Um, and you see so many peoplenow have cold plunges and saunas
in their homes.
Why do you think that perhapsthis sector is being adopted uh,
I guess, more slowly than thanmaybe we would expect it to
grow?
SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
Yeah, you know, I first of all, I think you're
finding it the big box clubs noware putting this inside their
stores.
I mean, there are some hotelsdoing it.
Obviously, the democratizationof this, you can have it at your
home are are coming that way.
Um, you know, I think it's aniche offering.
I think there are some savvierinvestors who are like, hey,
look, how does this play out?
Maybe through an economicrecession.
I mean, it's not a cheap pricepoint for the consumer.
You know, what do they start tocut if they look at their
(38:53):
spending?
And so I think some of the maybethe savier money is kind of
waiting on the sidelines to makesure this is durable and
sustainable through differenteconomic cycles.
So, and there are just so manyopportunities out there in
recovery and fitness andwellness and anti-aging.
So I just think thefragmentation of offerings, it
just means that we're all just,you know, trying to like find
(39:14):
more and more prospects open,which means that you know
different brands are opening alittle bit slower.
SPEAKER_05 (39:19):
Yeah, you know, Peter Atia was saying on his
podcast relative to coldplunges, he said, Look, I don't
know what the long-term benefitsare, but I know that I feel much
better after I do it.
Um, I know that it sort ofsteals me for the day.
And that's what I felt too, thaton the days where I do it, I
just, you know, again, I see itin my resting heart rate, which
stays lower the rest of the day.
(39:39):
And it does by doing those hardthings, it kind of chills
laughing at me.
She's like, Why are you alwaystalking about this?
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
So the fact that I would do a cold plunge isn't as
crazy.
Exactly.
It'll be cold deer very, verysoon.
You know what?
But that's what's frustrating.
Go back to the earlier point.
Like now I've heard like coldplunge for someone who's already
in shape is it doesn't do asgood.
And there's just so muchinformation out there.
I mean, look, if it makes youfeel good mentally and you're
seeing some results physically,then keep doing it.
(40:10):
As Joe mentioned earlier,there's something for everybody.
So wherever you are in yourjourney, I mean, snack, dabble,
try, explore, find somethingthat fits you.
And guess what?
It may work now for the nextthree, six, nine months.
And then you can, the good newsis there's so many offerings you
can try something else.
And so that's why there's neverbeen a better time to be a
consumer.
There's just so much to try anddo.
SPEAKER_05 (40:31):
All right, David, you're up.
SPEAKER_06 (40:34):
No, this is this is great.
I love this type of podcastbecause you're speaking my love
like my love language.
Um, I'm the same way.
I've I've tried it all.
I did bodybuilding, I was eatingseven, eight times a day, and
then now I'm doing one meal aday.
I feel great with one meal aday, but then I get I get
starved, I'm starving andswitching back and forth, but I
digress.
Um you've always emphasizedculture over hype.
(40:56):
How do you keep that messageresonating with the younger
entrepreneurs entering thefitness franchise?
SPEAKER_00 (41:01):
Oh man, that's a great question.
So uh what I'm proud of too isthat Dave and I have made the
leap from founder to leader.
You don't get many leaders orfounders who have been in the
brand this long as it reallyscales and also takes on private
equity money.
Um, they just can't make thatleap.
You know, founders run a startupdifferently than how they need
to run a large-scale maturebrand.
So we've had to continually kindof reinvent ourselves and to you
(41:25):
know develop ourselves asleaders.
Um, you know, obviously you wantto listen, you want to be very,
very self-aware.
Um, you want to surroundyourself with people who are
kind of helping you along theway.
Um, but for us in culture, Imean, we're very intentional
about it.
Hopefully, it's authentic to whoyou are.
I've always had to like be very,very clear on over
communication.
I think in today's noisy world,all of your stakeholders are
(41:48):
bombarded with noise.
And so, how do you cut throughthat?
And so we've done so manydifferent ways to communicate
with our stakeholders, annualconferences, vitals, town hall
meetings, internal podcasts.
I do all-staff emails.
In fact, in the book here, Ishare some of the favorite
all-staff emails I've had overthe years.
I really consider them as likelove letters from a CEO to their
(42:08):
stakeholders.
And so, communication.
I mean, listen, listen to yourears bleed, especially in
franchising.
You have to make sure yourfranchisees feel heard and
understood.
Look at all the data, consumerdata, franchise data, where are
the trends, what's going on, andthen listen to your team, and
then you've got to form a pointof view.
You know, get some smart peoplein the room and help you
prioritize and go.
So for me, it's always aboutlistening, always about taking
(42:29):
in information first, and thenyou know, charting your plan of
attack and then communicating.
Not just what's going on in thebusiness, but I'm a big-time
believer in you know, being abit vulnerable and talking about
life issues with ourstakeholders, not just business
issues.
And I think that's one of youknow the hearts and minds of our
of our stakeholders.
SPEAKER_05 (42:48):
I love that.
SPEAKER_03 (42:49):
Terrific.
SPEAKER_05 (42:50):
All right, Morgan, last but not least.
SPEAKER_03 (42:52):
Yeah, it's just something that was on my mind
while you were talking.
We have a friend, Catherine andI in California, that's opening
an 80,000 square foot pickleballcenter, which was a little
shocking.
Um, so my question to you is doyou feel that there are any
fitness trends that are just notgoing to be able to be around in
five, 10 years?
SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
That's a good question.
Uh, you know, Pilates is havingan incredible moment right now,
and I think long-term Pilateshere to stay.
I think yoga is making acomeback.
Strength training has alwaysstood the test of time.
I mean, I just, you know, Ican't imagine people are not
gonna want to continue to liftweights for strength and for all
those uh all those longevity andhealth reasons.
I don't want to name names, butI think there are some very,
very small niche offerings todaywithin fitness that maybe are
(43:35):
very like a sliver of amodality.
I just, you know, being asubscale brand in that category,
I just don't think, and they'revery, very trendy today.
I don't think they're gonnalast.
I just I hesitate to name thosebrands, but I I can see some in
fitness and even some, frankly,in uh the longevity space that I
think are just too narrow and ata price point where I just don't
think they're gonna sustainthemselves over time.
SPEAKER_05 (43:58):
I think the number one guidance we can give as
franchise consultants to peoplewho are exploring franchises is
when we look at for a franchise.
Do I need it?
And do I need it a lot?
As we look at those franchisesthat get the highest valuations,
we see that recurring revenue.
Uh, we see that great branding,and we see that profitability.
(44:19):
And certainly with AnytimeFitness and with all the brands
you have at purpose, um, theyfit that bill.
SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
Yeah, and you guys know, look, we've always been
long-term thinkers, we've alwaysreinvested in the brand.
Dave and I have always like, howdo we get better capabilities to
help our franchisees succeed?
I mean, the most importantaccelerant in the flywheel of
franchising is unit levelperformance.
If your franchisees make money,everything else takes care of
itself.
They will buy more territories,we refer more people, and the
(44:45):
growth happens.
And so we've always beenfranchisee focused, the current
franchisees.
And then, yes, we want to addwhite space, we want to sell
territories.
But first and foremost, helpyour franchisees ramp the
business, be successful, and Ipromise you the growth will
happen.
SPEAKER_05 (45:00):
That's awesome.
Chuck, this has been so great.
Thank you so much for being sogenerous with your time.
If you don't mind for thelisteners, what's the name of
your guys' new book?
One more time.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
It is called Fanchise Your Franchise.
Um, you can find me on LinkedInat Chuck Runyon.
I'm on Instagram at ChuckRunyon.
You, if anyone's interested inthe book, they can email uh
purpose.
No, I'm sorry, wait, franchiseat purposebrands.com.
Fanchise at purposebrands.com.
In fact, you guys, if you don'tmind, send me your home
addresses at franchise atpurposebrands.com and I'll send
(45:31):
you guys a book.
I'd love for you to read it.
Um we are just look, we lovehealth and fitness.
We also love franchising.
I mean, my gosh, this hasprovided opportunities for
people.
You know, for the last 75 years,it's been one of the great
unlock for people withgenerational wealth and
opportunities and you know,franchises of all types.
And so I love this industry.
Globally, I can tell you, it isgrowing and better than ever.
I'm so excited where this isgoing.
(45:52):
And so Dave and I spent a lot oftime.
Dave's a member of theInternational Franchise
Association, he's on theirboard.
So we are promoting andprotecting the franchise
industry.
We're promoting and protectingthe wellness industry.
And so we just care deeply aboutopportunities for people and
helping them unlock personalgrowth, purpose, and
generational wealth.
SPEAKER_05 (46:10):
That is so well said.
And for all of you listening,please do visit us at
thefranchiseinsiders.com.
If you'd like to learn moreabout any of the franchises that
Purpose Brands has, I encourageyou to go to our team page to
learn about our team.
Learn about Catherine, Brian,David, Morgan, and now Jay and
Carolina.
All of our friend, all of ourconsultants have been top five
franchise owners uh in theirsystem.
(46:32):
Um, multiple uh consultants onour team have had successful
exits.
So please do go learn about ourteam and whoever you want to
work with, we'd love to helpyou.
Go to thefranchiseinsiders.com.
And for this week on We Bought aFranchise, I'm Jack Johnson.
SPEAKER_04 (46:45):
I'm Jill Johnson.
SPEAKER_05 (46:46):
And we'll talk to you next time.
Thanks, everybody.
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