April 29, 2026 • 57 mins
Josh Matthews hosts a live TDX 2026 breakdown with three guests who were in the room: Sally ElGhoul (brand new Golden Hoodie winner and founder of Code with Sally), Beach Horn (Salesforce architect and Salesforce Ben contributor), and co-host Scott Stafford.
What they cover:
- What TDX 2026 was really trying to land — and what Parker Harris's headless vision means for your career
- Agentforce Vibes 2.0 and AgentScript: why deterministic agents are the biggest developer shift in years
- Why demand for Salesforce architects is up 27% while supply is only up 4%
- The AI developer split — why skipping fundamentals is just as dangerous as ignoring AI
- Security, React on Core, and the surfaces nobody's watching closely enough
- How to get the most out of Dreamforce and Dreamin' events (and why you need to book your hotel today)
- Sally's Golden Hoodie moment: what it felt like, and why she still just wants you to come say hi
The Hiring Edge covers hiring strategy, career development, and the forces reshaping the Salesforce ecosystem. New episodes every two weeks.
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Episode Transcript
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Josh Matthews (00:00):
Welcome to the Hiring Edge.
My name is Josh Matthews.
I'm joined today by Beach Horn,Sally El Ghoul, and Scott
Stafford.
Everybody knows who Scott.
He's my co-host.
And Sally, Sally is the brandnew Golden Hoodie member.
Sally, give us uhcongratulations.
Yeah, bravo.
That's not an easy achievement.
(00:21):
Boy, do those things shine.
So maybe you can just tellpeople who you are, what you do,
and how how did you come aboutreceiving the golden hoodie this
year?
Sally ElGhoul (00:31):
So thank you so much, Josh, for having me and
for the great introduction.
And thank you for the greatwishes as well.
So my name is Taliil Ghoul.
I'm based currently in Toronto,Canada.
Uh, I've been in the ecosystemfor 16 years now, so very long
time.
And I've been always like adeveloper, moved to a senior
developer.
Now I'm a lead developer andworking as well in uh sometimes
(00:56):
as the architect as well for theteam.
Uh I'm the founder as well ofCode with Sally, and uh I love
giving back for the community.
Like Salesforce, as I mentionedduring the keynote, changed my
life and family life.
Like we moved from Egypt to UKand then Canada through
Salesforce opportunities.
So I believe in giving back,and that's why I started Code
(01:18):
with Sally.
Uh, it's an initiative with uhweekly live sessions where I
teach people coding or anythingnew I learn.
And uh yeah, I believe uh thatuh was one of the reasons uh
like how I'm giving back andinteracting with the community
and trying to help others learnacross uh my journey and the
path of learning.
Josh Matthews (01:40):
What did it feel like?
What did it feel like to hearyour name and get called up?
Sally ElGhoul (01:48):
Uh it was very, very um like I I was very
nervous and uh at the same timevery excited and honored.
So it's mixed feelings, and Ithink till now I still feel like
I'm processing that thishappened and I got it because
the Golden Hoodie was alwayslike something uh big.
(02:09):
We don't know exactly like howpeople get nominated or
selected.
So I was never like had a wishto have it.
So it's it's a great honor,definitely.
And uh I'm very happy and proudthat I got the chance to talk
and share my story and maybelike uh inspire others to give
(02:30):
back to the community and helpeach other grow.
Josh Matthews (02:34):
Wonderful.
Well, congratulations again,Sally.
It's great to have you on theshow.
And Beach, tell us who are you?
What do you do?
Where do you live?
What do you get up to?
And why did you uh head out toTDX?
I think this was your firsttime at TDX, correct?
Beech Horn (02:48):
Yeah, first time at TDX.
I'm still a bit of a salesforce and Mirosoft noob.
I've only been doing it for acouple of years, but I've been
doing technology for about 30.
So there's a lot oftransferable skills and
learnings and stuff to comeacross.
Yeah.
Um, kick back in London, workfor a security company.
We do locks, alarms, CCTV, allof that kind of jazz.
(03:09):
And I'm a developer turnedarchitect.
So there's still a lot oflearning about what it means to
be an architect and how that'sdifferent from being a developer
or an admin or a manager goingon.
But yeah, um, quite like walks,there's a lot of countryside
near us.
My other half loves riding.
I'm a bit more scared of thehorses, to be fair.
And I really wanted to head outto TDX.
(03:31):
I've been spending a lot oftime with the product managers
and kind of seeing how productsare evolving and getting
involved with insider groups andthings and trying to push
things on.
A lot of content on SalesforceBen, tutorials and articles and
things.
Sure.
So I've been trying to push theproduct.
So there's no better place tospeak to product managers and
speak to people who were tryingto create new and fun things
(03:53):
than to head out to TDX.
Plus, I get to see Sally forthe first time.
And that was an amazing reveal.
That's us watching you in theaudience go from here to it was
a lovely moment, and then thethe terror unwound.
Josh Matthews (04:09):
Scott, as someone who's you know a regular
attendee of Dreaming Events andDream Force and TDX2, for those
who've never been to TDX, whatwhat does it how does it feel
different say to a Dream Force?
And of course, this year is inSan Francisco.
It isn't always, right?
How did it feel different forthe lay person attending a TDX
(04:35):
versus a Dream Force?
Scott Stafford (04:37):
It's a lot smaller.
So that actually brings theopportunity to really build
those authentic relationships.
I mean, there is a fair amountof people there, but compared to
Dream Force, well, you're justoverwhelmed.
I mean, there, you're notnecessarily will you actually
get to see everybody that youwanted to see at Dreamforce.
I had an incredible time.
I mean, you start out, right,you know, a little bit slower,
(05:00):
get there the day before.
I ran over to see Sally at herhotel.
And then the big difference isthere's a lot more emphasis on
hands-on.
I mean, you walk in and you'llsee computers and and different
assets there for you to actuallyget your hands on the keyboard
or get to be part of, you know,whatever technology they have
there.
And I just really think thatalso that opportunity to have it
(05:24):
just be two days, because a lotof times when it's three days
at Dreamforce, you're wiped.
You're wiped and wiped, but youcan give it your all, right?
And go full blast for two days.
So it's pretty magical.
Josh Matthews (05:37):
And who do you think the primary folks are that
should be going, right?
Like, hey, if this is your job,you should go.
And you can't say everybody,but go ahead.
Beech Horn (05:51):
Normally you'd go for like, you know, your
developers, your technicalarchitects, that's the normal
archetype.
Yeah.
But now there's a lot moredeclarative stuff happening.
There's a lot more drag anddrop the agentic layer
experience or multi-platform andthese kind of weird terms.
But it basically what it meansis drag and drop declarative.
So just click and uh clicksrather than code development.
(06:13):
There's a lot more of thathappening, especially with AI.
So even if you're an admin, butyou're someone who creates
things, or even if you're inmarketing and you want to see
how you can get more creative,how can you get more automated?
I'd say TDX is opening thedoors for those kind of avenues.
Josh Matthews (06:30):
What do you guys think the world's gonna be like
in 12 months with vibe?
I I know it's it's like Josh, Idon't know what it's gonna be
in three months, right?
Like AI doesn't feel the sameas it did at Christmas, as far
as I'm I can tell, you know.
But in 12 months, I mean, theterm developer, it's already
(06:55):
changing.
I think we learned that it'sthe low 90 percentile, uh, you
know, over 90%, 92% ofdevelopers are utilizing AI to
some degree.
A lot of developers haveswitched over to using products
like Cursor or Vibes and just tomake certain aspects of
(07:15):
development expedited.
They can run multiple, they candevelop in parallel at the same
time.
I I know some of the newfeatures coming out with Vibes
2, which uh a friend of the showand a friend of mine, Mike
McCullough, worked on over thereat over there at Salesforce,
very bright guy, one of theearliest adopters of Cursor, and
(07:38):
eventually they brought him onover to Salesforce, which makes
a ton of sense.
Now, you know, it's easy.
Like, what are we doing?
Oh, I'm refactoring, or oh, I'mdoing QA, or oh, I'm just doing
like a bug review, or no, I'mactually building here, or I'm
planning, right?
The planner layer, which issort of the architecture layer
of vibes too.
Like now that people like me,I'm smart guy for some things,
(08:02):
I'm a total dumbass for otherthings, right?
Like now, me, I can sit downand I can, I can build robust
software, like good stuff, stuffpeople are gonna use, stuff
people will pay for.
That has really changed thelandscape.
What did you find at TDX?
You know, how did they addressthat?
I mean, going on, going off ofwhat you just said, it's like,
(08:25):
hey, it's now bring that, bringin the admins, bring in the
people who are the builders andthe configuration specialists
and the consultants, bring themdown here to this conference
because guess what?
It's just not for developersand architects because that
skill set has been laid open.
Not perfectly, not perfectly.
And if if we know anythingabout what's happening in the
(08:46):
job market right now, it's thatdemand for architects in
Salesforce, it's up 27%.
Supply is only up 4%, right?
People need more orchestrators,more architects.
That's what I'm finding.
I think that's what the world'sfinding in general.
So what do you think?
Let's go, let's go with you,Beach.
Beech Horn (09:04):
Yeah, they've given you a great set of tools to
accelerate.
The thing is, you canaccelerate in the
straightforward direction towhere you want to be, or you can
accelerate in the oppositedirection away from where you
need to be just as fast.
So you've got these tools andthey're just enablers.
So it becomes how do you addvalue?
How do you orchestrate thingsto kind of get these tools to
(09:28):
work for you?
You know, if you're using ahammer all of the time, you're
not really going to drive thosescrews in properly.
So you've got to think aboutusing the right tools and really
being sure about where you'regoing before you run fast.
Josh Matthews (09:42):
Well, it makes sense.
What about you, Sally?
What do you think?
Sally ElGhoul (09:46):
So I I think, and that's part of like uh I had a
session where we were showinghow the enterprise uh
development and delivering anapp will be changing in while
we're using Vibes and the newMCP servers.
Like I feel we'll become morespending less time writing
everyday like fine codes andmore like spending time of um
(10:09):
requiring gathering, askingquestions, uh, trying to cover
edge cases in our requirementsand spending time as well
planning with the vibe tools orAsian Force Vibes, like what's
the plan of the implementationand reviewing that?
And then we'll becomeorchestrator, like implementing
phases one by one.
But again, I still feel we needthe development skills because
(10:34):
Asian Force Vibes, Cloud, Codex,all the vibe tools will
generate artifacts for us.
But like without the knowledgeof developers and how we can uh
verify if it's good or bad, orif it did a wrong empty pattern
we don't like, we won't be ableto catch those.
It may be fine with a proof ofconcept or like a demo, but it
(10:57):
won't be good for a live likeproduction uh code.
So we need the knowledge toreview and make sure it meets
the criteria we are looking for.
So we'll spend more time in thepre-orchestration and
implementing the phases usingVibe tool, and we'll be
reviewing and making sureeverything is good.
And the other thing I feel weneeded, we need the knowledge
(11:20):
for because sometimes, like youget into a cycle of bugs or
issues, and you can keep goingback and forth with AI tool to
change it or fix it for you.
It can go messy if you go thatroute sometimes, and sometimes
as well, it's burning credits orAPI requests for you
unnecessary.
So sometimes the knowledge aswell can save you time to get
(11:41):
things done faster or like cutit short, save on the budget you
have and the credits you areburning using AI.
So that's like the idea, butdefinitely, definitely, because
I've been using Asian Force fordeveloper before it became Asian
Force Vibes, and I see nowAsian Force Vibes 2.0 coming.
Uh the progressive like uhenhancements the team is working
(12:04):
on is massive, uh, but we haveto get hands-on and get used to
it because again, the more we'llbe using those tools, the more
creative we'll be with like usecases and how we can benefit
from too as well.
Josh Matthews (12:17):
100%.
And I I want to touch onsomething that you just brought
up, which is what these AIdevelopment tools are good at
and where they really suffer.
And certainly one of thoseareas, and I think this is why
going headless can make a lot ofsense for a lot of people, is
the UX can be really tough.
(12:38):
You try and change your font,you know, on an application, and
it's gonna break two otherthings, and it's not gonna
understand you unless you'rereally working with a strong
Figma.
And as a code or as adeveloper, you've probably got
all of your assets and it'sdialed in and you're uploading
that information.
But even then, the output, itjust seems to struggle, or at
least this is what I've noticed,and some friends of mine have
(13:00):
noticed.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Right.
Josh Matthews (13:13):
They sure are, yeah.
And I did see some stuff aboutclaw design.
It seemed like there's somereally decent use cases for it.
Um, you know, very good, verygood use cases for it.
So, but it's still in itsinfancy.
And so there's a lot of thetech that we're that we're
talking about right now.
Let's do a little bit of apivot.
Scott, I'm gonna go to you.
I want you to just talk aboutyou kind of mentioned how it's a
(13:39):
smaller conference, yeah.
A little bit more opportunityto connect.
I don't know a whole lot ofpeople in the world who are born
connectors the way you are.
I mean, you're just Mr.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Sunshine, I think that's what you call them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Scott Stafford (14:01):
I would say though, at this TDX, it started
out.
I mean, if everybody listenedto the keynote, right?
We brought back Sarah Franklin.
It was magical.
And what she's known for,bringing the bling, right?
And that's kind of what I thinkwe're doing in the world,
right?
As Sally pointed out, right, wecan use and spend a lot of time
actually designing the softwarethat we're looking for.
(14:23):
But then we also now have stuffto elevate it to the next
level.
So I'm seeing that we arebringing the being, right, to
the conferences.
You know, we're connecting,there's a lot of excitement in
the air, but then we're alsobringing the bing, right, to be
able to refine the applicationsthat we made.
I saw some of the bestsoftware, right, come out of
Salesforce that I've ever seen,right?
(14:44):
They used vibe coding, they'veused a lot of things to build
that.
And they're elevating yourself.
So kind of think about that.
That's what I kind of thinkabout.
Now that we have these tools,you can spend more time, right,
when it's all done, iterating itand getting it to the next
level, right?
And it's magical.
And we are really excited.
I mean, you probably uh saw alot of pictures of my good
(15:06):
friend Daniel Peters, right?
He was flexing his muscles, andbasically that's where we are
right now.
Salesforce is giving you themuscle, right?
It's the bing, it's theexcitement, right?
We have, you know, we have thetoys, right?
We have everything to do.
And it's just kind of magical.
I along with, you know, gettingpeople to to appreciate that
(15:26):
everybody probably wants to comelook through the looking glass
and go to TDX because you get avision of you know where we're
going, right?
It's also just a lot of fun,right?
You know, just to be part ofthe magic, right?
It's happening so quick.
Like Josh pressed me with,where will we be in one year?
Josh Matthews (15:45):
I don't know.
Good answer.
It's gonna be great.
What do you think is thescariest thing going on right
now?
Beach, let's go to you.
Beech Horn (15:54):
What's the scariest, scariest certainly AI in terms
of security issues?
So we've just had mythos getloose and things.
So there's a lot where youcan't really expect anyone to
attack Salesforce itself, butwe've got things like React on
core, so a whole new web surfaceavailable for Salesforce.
And React's had a really rockyroad, especially before
(16:17):
Christmas.
Um so we've got all of these AItools that are automatically
finding vulnerabilities, andwe've got all these new surfaces
and ways of interacting withSalesforce happening at the same
time.
And if security last yeartaught us anything, that's a
dangerous mix if you've not gotyour security stature down pat.
(16:38):
So all I'd recommend is anyarchitects, any admins out
there.
Security is probably going tobe a growing task to learn, and
you really want to get ahead ofit earlier rather than later.
Josh Matthews (16:49):
How can look, as an architect, Beach, I'm kind of
curious, how would you advise ahiring manager to thoroughly
verify someone's ability tobuild things that are actually,
you know, protected.
Protected, you know.
Beech Horn (17:07):
From certifications and things, but that only get
you so far.
What I would suggest is morethinking of it in the long term.
So you can get people that thatknow this and know that and get
that certified.
But you want to find peoplethat are curious, that are
keeping up to date, they've gota track history of attending
events and learning.
There are different things likeSAPSA is probably the one that
(17:29):
I think is nearest and dearestto my heart, because that
teaches you to orientateanything you do for security
towards business value, whichmeans it's orientating anything
you come up with security togetting funded and actually
turning that back into money thecompany recognizes to enable
them.
So it's thinking about theselong-term things and having a
(17:50):
track history of being curious,being interested, and keeping up
to date.
Josh Matthews (17:54):
And what about for you, Sally?
I mean, how much are youtouching on security,
cybersecurity, wall gardens,this sort of thing, um, when
you're working with the peoplein your community and helping
them to elevate theirdevelopment game?
Sally ElGhoul (18:09):
So from my end, like I wouldn't be that deep as
Beach.
Like I go to Beach for likeknowledge and understanding more
of the security and how I canover overcome it.
But like from what I'velearned, like to be careful with
the context, like uh if you aregetting skills or if you're
getting or using anything fromthe internet, it's better to
(18:31):
build it yourself or likerebuild using your AI tools,
like the skills file, and becareful with it where you are
getting the skills from or thefiles you are downloading to
make sure like you're notgetting anything um you don't
want to have.
And the other thing isdefinitely like uh if we are
using vibe coding and generatingcode, like we go for like the
(18:54):
standard checks and thestandard, like if we are doing
the code ourselves to make surewe are meeting the best
practices we are looking for.
Again, from my end, like keeplearning from people who are
deeper in the topic because it'schanging and trying to be
careful with what I can findonline and uh as well to use my
(19:14):
knowledge to my best ability toreview the outputs.
Josh Matthews (19:19):
Very smart, good advice.
I'm kind of curious, what doyou each feel Salesforce was
trying to land this past week?
Because it's a lot, right?
Because there's there's sort ofwell, there's what's going on,
right?
I mean, if anyone who's been toDreamforce knows this, there's
(19:41):
like there's what's going on,then there's what they're trying
to land, what they're trying tomake sure everyone's taking
away.
You know, what do you think thebig motif is here?
Beech Horn (19:54):
I'd go along with the Parker Harris and the this
headless concept, this idea thatinstead of having a big
monolithic product, your bigSalesforce everyone goes to and
you have everything plugged in,that it's now becoming a bit
more like a tapestry whereyou're going to take little bits
from lots of different areasand weave it together to a
product that makes sense foryou, that's coming to you in
(20:17):
terms of an environment.
If you look at what'ssuccessful at the minute with
AI, you've got open um claw thata lot of people love, which is
the idea that you've got AIagents you interact with via
WhatsApp, via iMessage, viaemail.
And this headless environment,this headless way of doing
things, is now bringing thatsame experience for Salesforce.
(20:38):
So it's meeting the user wherethey are and allowing them to
bring in more tools than justSalesforce into a combined
tapestry of an experience.
And I think that was at leastParker Harris's school of what's
going on.
Sure.
Josh Matthews (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, it may it make sense.
I'm on my open claw all daylong through Slack.
You know, I'm not logging intosome dashboard, you know, and
I'm not having to configure picklists to get it to do things
that I want it to do.
It's just doing it andconnected.
What about you, Sally?
Do you echo what Beach believedwas the sort of main arc of the
(21:13):
conference last week?
Sally ElGhoul (21:14):
That that definitely was a big part for
it, but as a developer, likelydeveloper mindset, I'd be more
like the MCP servers that theyare making it available and like
uh showcasing that the AsianForce Vibe 2.0 will become
better and enhanced.
And at the same time, you canuse those MCP servers if you
(21:35):
want in like uh Cloud or OpenAIcodecs, like other tools, if you
are more comfortable working inother uh vibe coding tools.
And the other piece for it itwas the Asian script because we
have been building and uhimplementing a lot of agents
using the old builder, and wewere missing the part of the
(21:55):
deterministic versus likeprobabilistic uh distinguish in.
The agents we are building.
So I believe that's a bigchange and it's a big like push
towards uh thinking how to makethe agents more efficient and
more secure in that regard aswell, when you need the
deterministic piece ofvalidations or security.
Josh Matthews (22:16):
Can you dumb that down for some of us?
Sally ElGhoul (22:19):
Uh so honestly.
Josh Matthews (22:21):
No, like I I get it.
I don't think everybody's gonnafully understand what you mean
about agent scripts and likewhere was that before and why do
you need it?
And how it's how it'sintegrated.
Yeah.
Sally ElGhoul (22:34):
So before we had the old builder where like
mainly to manage your agent orgive instructions, we were using
just plain English.
And that like was relying onthe LLM mainly like to make the
decisions where what to do orwhat actions to do.
So if for example you have a anagent that needs to verify a
(22:57):
customer first before revealinglike order details, like we
found that based on experimentand people working on it, the
old builder and the agents webuilt with, that sometimes 99 or
80%, 90% it was happening, andsometimes no, and that was a
huge risk.
So Salesforce came with theAsian Force Agent Script, which
(23:19):
is a new language and newbuilder for building agents
where you can have moredeterministic uh input, like if
statements make sure not to orto give the order unless the
user is verified, using ifstatements and the variables in
place.
And you can have two ways to doit, like whether you do the
(23:41):
script and language yourself andwrite it, or they offered as
well a canvas more like peoplewho are used to the flows and
the GUI, or like uh for theflows to have a better way or
easier way to write uh the newuh deterministic if statements
and make sure that we havecontrol over the agents in those
(24:02):
areas where we needed to be100% sure not to do something uh
first uh and uh verify thecustomer.
Josh Matthews (24:10):
Because LL LLMs mess this up all the time.
It's like you must do this, butwait, it's not in brackets,
it's not in caps, and now I'mgoing to ignore you.
And by the way, in about ahundred lines, I'm gonna forget
everything that you just toldme.
So you're you're talking aboutlike really putting the
guardrails in and making it likeyou must absolutely do this.
This is not something thatSonnet 4.6 needs to think about.
(24:32):
You're gonna just do this.
Is that kind of what you mean?
Sally ElGhoul (24:34):
Yes, yes.
And this won't be done throughthe LLMs.
Uh, like it would be throughthe reasoning, Atlas reasoning
engine of Salesforce doing thisuplift for you and make sure
that it's deterministic and 100%we are sure it's happening.
So I feel that's a big changeas well.
Uh as a developer who has beenworking with the agents as well.
Josh Matthews (24:57):
What are you most scared of in the next six
months?
Like, what do you think?
I'm gonna go to Beach on thisone, and then we'll hit Scott
and come back to you, Sally.
There's a lot, there are a lotof tech layoffs happening.
It's very real.
It's not like people didn'tknow this wasn't coming.
(25:18):
It's coming, it's here.
And it's probably going toaccelerate as some of these AI
investments that companies aremaking start to actually work
out and make sense and pay off.
Scott Stafford (25:32):
Yeah.
Josh Matthews (25:32):
So what I'm I'll I'll start and just tell you
what I'm most scared of.
I'm scared that people don'tknow that they need to get their
shit together now.
That's the thing that scares methe most.
That there are really smart,good people out there that
simply are pushing back againstAI and thinking somehow they're
gonna make it.
(25:53):
You know, and unless they're Imean, unless they're out there,
I don't know, helping to repairtractors on a farm or something.
Like, I don't know what they'regonna do with their life,
right?
What do you guys think?
Let's go to U Beach first.
Beech Horn (26:10):
I'm even worried about the people repairing
stuff, the robotics field, whichis like the fourth wave of AI.
We're we're in the third.
That's the fourth wave beforewe get to the fifth.
Even those manual jobs, I'd beworried about saying, go get a
manual trade, you're gonna beokay on here.
Josh Matthews (26:27):
But I think that's still like two year, I
feel like that's still atwo-year-old.
Beech Horn (26:31):
In the six-month area.
Josh Matthews (26:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Beech Horn (26:34):
There's a lot of jobs where you're not adding
value, where you're notcommunicating with the business,
where you're not able toarticulate.
If you can't articulate yourjob to train someone else, you
can't articulate your job toautomate it with AI.
So there's a lot of people thatfeel that they're in these jobs
where they're never promoted.
The reason they're neverpromoted is no one can ever
understand what they actuallydo.
(26:55):
Those kind of jobs are kind ofat risk because AI can start to
figure out what they're able todo.
So it's a matter of don't makeyourself invaluable, make
yourself replaceable, whichseems counterintuitive, but it
means you're able tocommunicate, you're able to
move, and you're able to change.
And there's uh a wonderful bookcalled Who Moved My Cheese?
And the top line from that isI've been out for some time.
(27:18):
Yeah, exactly.
What would you do if youweren't afraid?
There's in uh Punjabi myth,it's the idea of in order to
move, you need to be uprootedfrom where you are and replanted
somewhere else.
And it's that uprooting canfeel hurtful, but you need to do
it in order to be able to move.
Josh Matthews (27:36):
100%.
Thanks for sharing that, Beach.
What do you think, Scott?
What's the scariest thing aboutchanges?
Scott Stafford (27:44):
What I see that being really scary is people's
past experiences, their pastbeliefs of where technology is
going is gonna hold them back.
To actually imagine a world,try and figure out what the
world's looking for.
People want to be on theirtech, right, in remote areas.
They want this.
They're actually asking, right,for a headless, right?
(28:05):
And so many people, I think,are slowing down.
They're like, well, agentforce, agent force, it's not
gonna happen.
And it did happen, right?
And the agents are here.
So don't, you know, learn fromthat lesson and make sure you
don't hold yourself back.
Try and envision a world that'sactually coming.
We're literally gonna betalking to our computers, right?
There's gonna be holograms.
This future world, right, iscoming one day.
(28:27):
So I really worry that a lot ofpeople are slowing down, trying
to say, well, coding's notgonna be like that.
Uh the one of the things Ireally, really appreciate about
Sally is she is known, right, asa coding expert, right?
You know, it's code with Sally,but she's always telling people
embrace the new tools, right?
Get in there, find out how theyuse them, and then get to the
(28:48):
next level.
So that's what I'm worriedabout that people will actually
be great, you know, assets, butactually because they don't dive
in, right, they won't takeadvantage of the future.
Josh Matthews (28:59):
Totally agree.
Sally, let's get your thoughtson this.
Sally ElGhoul (29:02):
Yeah, so I I guess mine is mainly two areas.
Like one of them is that weneed to keep up and things are
changing super fast.
So we have to be in the mindsetevery day we have to learn
something new and teach someoneelse while we are learning.
Uh, because it's a lot.
If I will learn on my own, Ican't finish everything.
(29:23):
So if I know something, I shareit.
You know something, you shareit, and we all benefit.
The second part is I feel, yes,there is people who are afraid
of the technology and they don'twant to embrace the change.
That worries me because I see alot of brilliant people and I
don't want them to be left out.
But on the other side as well,I see a lot of newcomers coming
(29:46):
in.
And what worries me is thatthey leave the basics, they
don't learn how to do things andthey jump in AI, and that's
risky too, because we'll havepeople who use the AI very in a
very like impressive way, butthey cannot tell if it did a
good job or not.
And that can be risky and canlead to issues, security or
(30:09):
performance or anti-patterns uhincluded.
So I feel those two categoriesof people are scary, like
because we need the knowledgeand we need to know how to use
the AI.
So we have to be balancedbetween the two and we have to
keep learning because it'schanging super fast.
It's a lot.
Josh Matthews (30:27):
So fast, so fast.
I'm kind of curious, Sally,what's the mistake you're
already seeing customers makingwith AI agents on Salesforce?
Are you seeing them makemistakes regularly?
Sally ElGhoul (30:39):
I feel uh what I saw is either not being
open-minded that let's go andstart and try it, or sometimes
the clients jump in in a thebiggest use case that they wish
ever to implement.
And it's a learning curve forthe developers and for them like
to know how to express whatthey want.
(31:01):
And sometimes that makes theoutput not as like as for
example, they shut down thewhole project.
So my advice is always likestart small, and I like to I
love employee agents.
I feel it like uh when we areworking with uh agent force
agents, like it's a sweet spotbecause it's not
(31:23):
customer-facing, it's lessrisky.
Uh, like developers andemployees can take time to learn
how to implement it andexperiment internally, and they
will build the confidence andthe know-how, how to think
because it's a different mindsetof thinking on achieving the
changes.
So once we experiment with theemployee agent, we will have the
(31:44):
knowledge as developers orteam.
The business will get thebenefit and they will fall in
love with it, and then we canexpand beyond that.
So I believe start small andextend.
Josh Matthews (31:54):
Look, I gotta just put a big fat exclamation
point on top of what you justsaid here, because it is so
critical.
And I've seen it where peoplejust they're they're like, I
know what I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna go eat that elephantright now on something that I
don't even really fullyunderstand.
And I've I've seen it happen intech over the last 25 years, 30
years almost, that like it'sjust like don't do that.
(32:15):
Like, just don't do that.
And even for myself, when Ifirst started with some some AI
with using perplexity computerand then moved to open claw, and
it was like, okay, I'm I'm notjumping, I'm not just sticking
all this stuff into like myQuickBooks and my Salesforce
right away.
Let's just try some basicmarketing stuff.
Let's see how that goes.
(32:36):
I wanted to start a launch anew business, which is probably
gonna come out in a couple,couple months, but it's like,
well, let's see if I can justuse AI to open up a quick little
t-shirt shop in a weekend,right?
And I did it.
And it's like, okay, I justwant to see how this is working
and how it's it's just a testcase.
I'm not gonna make a dime onthe thing, but it was just a
test case and it was fun, funlittle experiment.
(32:59):
So, yeah, start small, right?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
You don't uh it's true.
(33:28):
It's true.
Josh Matthews (33:31):
Yesterday I did this thing, I I just thought,
oh, this will be fun.
Um on this one project I'mworking on.
I've got 74 tasks, right, thatI need to get done.
And I had a list and it justtriaged.
I was like, uh, can we makethis into a Kanban?
Yeah, sure, let me do that.
Here you go.
And I was like, okay, can wemake it so that if I click on it
(33:51):
on some like little lightningbolt, it populates our thread
and you take the first action onit?
It's like, yeah, sure, done.
It was it was three minutes ofwork and two minutes of
rendering and it was done.
And it was like, oh my God,there's so much power that
there's practically no excusesfor low productivity anymore.
Right.
And I think one other thingbefore we kind of move on,
(34:13):
Scott, I know you've got somestuff to share.
I think people should beterrified of how efficient they
can be.
And if they don't feelhyper-efficient, they should be
terrified about how efficientothers can be.
And I'm telling you thisbecause I know it for a fact.
Hiring managers don't yet knowthis.
The people listening to my showmight, but in gen pop out there
(34:38):
in the real world, most hiringmanagers don't know what's
actually possible.
What having a Sally or having abeach or having a Scott or
having a Josh on their teamcould mean when they actually
have like, okay, look, here'syour $50,000 of credits a year,
like use them wisely, off yougo.
You know, like let's go buildsome stuff.
When it happens, when theycatch up, we're going to see
(35:03):
this split, I think.
The haves and the have nots,the broke and the successful,
there's not going to be aneeking by anymore.
There's going to be you'remaking it or you're not, you're
relevant or you're not.
And this sort of gray middlezone is going to be very fuzzy.
And those are just going to bethe people who are trying to get
(35:25):
up.
You know, but if they're notworking towards that like
competency to break into thattop 30% of producers out there
in the world, they're going tofind that they're in the bottom
with everybody else.
And so they go and get beach toyour point earlier.
They're like, well, I know whatI'll do.
I'll go um start a pressurewashing business.
And now they're competing withsome guy who's got a Tesla
(35:46):
driving, self-driving truck, andtwo robots in the backseat who
are going out and doing it.
And he's sitting back, and allhe had to do was spend 150 grand
on some robots and soap.
You know, like it's crazy.
Beech Horn (35:57):
It's six grand now for a biped robot being used by
BMW in their factories.
The price is ridiculously low.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh Matthews (36:07):
Yeah.
It's crazy.
Hey, by the way, we've got uh anumber of people watching this
program.
Welcome.
Thank you for joining us.
You are watching the HiringEdge.
It's live here on LinkedIn.
We are joined by Sally ElGhoul, one of the most recent
Golden Hoodie award winners.
Um, just kind of last week atTDX out in San Francisco.
(36:27):
We've got Beach with us, we'vegot Scott with us.
We thank you for being here.
We hope that you're going tosubscribe to this channel and
show up every couple weeks.
If you missed the first part,don't worry about it.
On LinkedIn, you can justrewind and you can watch the
whole darn thing.
You can also, by next Tuesdayor Wednesday, you can listen to
this.
If you're not as visual aperson, you can listen to this.
(36:47):
Just go to thehiringedge.ai orjust type in the hiring edge
anywhere uh you like to listento podcasts, Spotify, Apple, and
about 20 other places.
Okay, with that in mind, Scott,what haven't we covered about
TDX that's really important forus and our audience to
understand?
Scott Stafford (37:05):
Yeah, I want to tag back onto something that
Sally said before I touch onthat.
She said, you know, we build itsmall, right?
Don't just start with a hugeelephant, but build it and then
build it so that they'll fall inlove with it.
Right.
I I was just thinking when shesaid that, that is so powerful.
That's the bing, right?
That's what Sarah Franklin'sall about, right?
Let's, we have the tools.
Don't you want to awe peoplewith what is actually possible,
(37:28):
right?
So start small, then iteratethrough it.
And actually, when you showcasewhat you made with AI, show
them something that is beyondanything, right?
Thing you could have ever donewithout those tools.
Because we have new tools andwe can now do amazing things.
So I was just gonna uh piggy onthat.
I also want to encourage adifferent aspect of TDX, right?
(37:49):
We've we've talked a lot abouthow things are moving so
quickly.
You posed one question that wasa little bit scary.
Where are we gonna be in a yearfrom now?
And the reason why you shouldget to Dreamforce, which is less
than six months, and TDX now isactually just to get the
opportunity to see where theworld's going.
Look through the looking glass.
It's all about them showing theworld, right, that they want to
(38:13):
build, but it doesn't exist yetunless we all buy in and get
excited about it.
So as I left there, I go, wow,that's an incredible world.
Isn't that what we're lookingfor?
Right.
I really don't want to have toalways be on my computer or just
to not be able to buildin-grounded conversation.
I'm in Slack and I love it,right?
(38:34):
And so that's just something Iwant to encourage everybody.
Maybe it's time to start goingto a few more conferences
because things are moving fast.
You can't literally wait oneyear to see the next beaker of
where we're going.
You you might need to check inevery three months.
Josh Matthews (38:50):
So let's do this.
I'm I'm really curious.
What are you guys tracking andfollowing to get a sense of how
things are changing?
I imagine some of it's justgonna be hands-on.
It's like, oh, I didn't know Icould do that, right?
Um, but is there a, you know,is there a blog?
Is there um a community?
Is it Ohana Slack?
Is it just getting in there andworking on it?
(39:10):
Like, what is it?
Beech Horn (39:11):
There's about 12 different sources.
You've got to be speaking topeople on Slacks, their product
managers, their fellowarchitects, you've got to be
keeping on top of the blogs,you've got to be keeping on top
of uh general YouTube chatterthat's happening.
There's different specialistconsultancies, and also watch
out for what isn't mentioned.
So a big one, for instance, iswhere's Omni Studio?
(39:34):
When's the fact that it didn'tjoin the ALX, the AXL, this
agent experience layer?
Is that the next candidate tobe fallen off looking at the
trajectory of things?
Yeah.
Field service had a big dreamforce with hybrid workforce,
drones, robots being added.
There's no talk of that when itgets the computer vision stuff
at TDX this year.
(39:56):
So it's like just trying tofind the weave of where things
are and where they're heading.
But yeah, you've got to bewide.
There's so much, and it'sgrabbing what makes sense to
you.
And don't be afraid to joininternational virtual
communities.
So there's a lot of likeAustralia's just had a big
session.
There's a big session in India.
Yeah.
There's if you're interested inthese areas, you can join them.
Josh Matthews (40:18):
And you know, you can you can build a little
agent that's just capturingeverything.
I mean, that's what I do.
I wake up and I see the resultsof 20 different uh periodicals
that I'm tracking, right?
The important stuff that's justimportant to me, and I can
click on it and go into it.
You can build that with like avery low-cost perplexity
(40:39):
computer kind of model, or ifyou're in open claw, you can
build that for yourself.
But it's sort of like readingthe summary of a book.
It's not the same as itintegrating into your, you know,
bloodstream the knowledge,right?
So it really does make sense tonot just read headlines.
It makes sense to get in thereand then be like, oh, I'm gonna
try this.
(41:00):
I know that for me, when MikeMcCula first inspired me about
14 months to do some deep AIdive, I I committed on the show
two Februaries ago.
Okay, I'm gonna spend 20 hourstrying to get better at this,
you know.
And by the end of the month,I'd put like 70 hours in because
I just I was like addicted, youknow, and and couldn't get
(41:22):
enough of it.
But the idea that like you justget in there and live it and
breathe it and work it, you'llfind that you're not gonna want
to sit in a silo and wake up insix months and notice that the
world has changed.
You're gonna want to always seewhat's going on.
So I think it's a naturalprogression for that 30% that
are gonna make it.
They're doing what you'redoing, Beach.
(41:44):
Beach.
Beech Horn (41:44):
Yeah, Mike McCooler joining Salesforce, I wrote
reached out to him straight awaybecause that was a big sign.
That was when I first startedlooking at Agent Force Vibe.
Seriously, that sent a signal.
Josh Matthews (41:55):
Yeah, big time.
Big time.
He actually, I don't thinkhe'll mind me saying this.
I got him a job offer at agreat company.
He turned it down because hegot the job at Salesforce.
And honestly, I couldn't behappier for him.
He is so in his wheelhouseright now.
And instead of being like anearly adopter and a user, he's
actually building it.
And that's an incredibleposition to be in.
He's it's always exciting totalk to him.
(42:17):
What a great attitude and whata real inspiration, always on
the bleeding edge of what'shappening in vibe coding.
Yeah.
What haven't we covered that wereally should cover?
I mean, we've been talking kindof in general terms about AI,
what people should be doing.
Let's get back, let's just reelourselves back to TDX for just
a moment.
Was there an aha scott?
(42:38):
Was there something that showedup for you when you were there
that you're like, oh my God.
Just this thing here made thewhole conference and trip
worthwhile.
Scott Stafford (42:51):
I think really understanding the whole headless
concept.
That really, you know, I wasalready using um the Slack bot,
you know, as part of the get fitmovement.
And I was wowed.
I thought, hey, this is reallygreat.
We were all kind of geekingout, really asking it more and
more questions as the movementwent along.
And then just kind of thinking,like, wow, this could be
(43:13):
anywhere, right?
It doesn't have to just be inSlack, right?
I mean, soon, right, we caneven have these things on our
glasses where we, you know, youcould touch a button and ask it
a question.
And I'm just, it was just likea moment to think of the future.
I mean, it was already there.
I mean, you already kind ofthought, well, we're gonna get
there one day.
But when I saw that and I sawthem present it, I go, wow, it's
(43:35):
here now.
Yeah.
That's that was my awe moment.
I was just like, wow.
And I was a little bit scaredand a little bit excited all at
the same time.
Josh Matthews (43:44):
Yeah, it's happening fast.
What about you, Sally?
Sally ElGhoul (43:47):
So from my end, like I would love in general to
give an advice for anyone who'sgoing to DX or Dreamforce.
I love the hands on sessions uhbecause it's a good way like to
sit down, try something.
something and work on it.
Besides like the the Asianforce vibes like area to play
with it or the quests uh thereis the hands-on sessions and
(44:10):
those usually like they go fastand they are filled like uh once
they say like the agendabuilder is up I usually go and
try to book my seats in thosesessions and I believe those are
priceless because it's usuallyone hour or maybe longer heads
down trying something new andlearning from the experts so I
(44:30):
would love people to takeadvantage of those if they are
going to TDX or Dreamforce.
And the other part I love somuch is going to the booth to
the product teams and talk tothem because they are like they
explain to you simpler words andone-on-one basis like what's in
new in the like the product andwhat are the new features and
(44:53):
they can give you demos and thenyou can discuss with them and
ask your questions.
So it helps with the learningso much.
Those are the most like greatexperience that I usually have
when I go to the events and alsoif anyone is heading to them
consider going to the boot campsas well because I love the
three days heads down learningin a topic that I choose.
(45:16):
This is something like ifsomeone can afford like the
expense for it and they aregoing and they're willing to do
it that's a great opportunityyou're there go early heads down
three days learn something getthe certificates it always feels
like amazing to to to achievethat while there too.
Josh Matthews (45:35):
Sally do you want to just take a moment and just
drop in a message here right nowthat employers should send
their folks to TDX?
Sally ElGhoul (45:46):
100% yeah 100% and I I I didn't go to
Dreamforce and TDX a long timeago like this one was my third
TDX but I would say like theexperience and knowledge I've
been gaining by going to TDX andDreamforce is like priceless
and it's worth it because withthe bootcamps I have the three
(46:06):
days heads down like I learn andI ask questions and I come back
always with new things that Ineed to change at work or for my
team and it always was a greatimpact.
And the same for TDX andDreamforce this is how I knew
like about when it was co-pilotor prompt template like it's all
new stuff that I can learn onmy own but it will take me
(46:30):
longer being in the events andasking questions and how for
example I was able to buildagents and deliver like and
making an impact for myemployer.
Beech Horn (46:39):
And also the bootcamp uh is priceless again
like it's it's so let's do let'sdo something fun then that's
great Sally Beach someone offersyou let's just imagine fantasy
land there's a there's a job itdoesn't have to be fantasy land
and someone keeps slidingsomething around let's try not
to do that because it's kind ofmaking some noise but let's
imagine Beach someone offers youa job one job is 200 grand 200
(47:05):
000 pounds a year okay the otherjob is 1920 pounds but you're
gonna get to go to a boot campand dream force you know 192 gay
one absolutely because yeahthat that might be one year two
years but then you're on there'stwo different trajectories for
your life at that point one isyou're growing exponentially the
(47:28):
other one is you're plateauingand if you're staying still
you're actually decreasingnowadays yeah yeah I just I
don't see this enough you knowit's like even even these little
dreaming events it's like I'llsee some of my clients and it's
like oh so and so's gonna go tothat dreaming event like that's
(47:48):
great like 600 bucks you knowit's nothing it's 200 to get in
it's four you know maybe 300 forthe hotel or 400 for the hotel
and and a three hour drive rightlike it's nothing you know and
I'm always surprised not justfrom the client side but really
from the SI partner side at howhow small these events actually
(48:13):
are and yet we've got what howmany users?
How many people are actually inthe ecosystem I mean tens and
tens and tens hundreds ofthousands what's up beach say
that again so even the peoplethat are going to it though are
normally the ones that you'llwant to learn from so the fact
that there's a a subset going isactually a really good sign.
(48:36):
You get a lot more signal tonoise and even applying to speak
so if you're an SI, why aren'tyou speaking?
Why aren't you an expert inyour field?
Why aren't you honing yourskills to get on that stage?
Josh Matthews (48:49):
Yeah exactly exactly okay Beach anything that
they left out or that we'veleft out from this show that you
think it's absolutely a hundredpercent critical important or
insightful for people to walkaway from this episode with I
would say for from the TDX pointof view content on data 360 I
(49:09):
see no one talking about this.
Beech Horn (49:11):
That means you can bring in story block you can
bring your content managementsystem you're damn into React on
core and into your marketingmessages and that's a real
indication of where things aregoing.
And the other one isInformatica Informatica showed
up on force so if you're havingproblems with data 360 with
unification with getting agolden record for getting one
(49:32):
view of your customer across allof your systems and or one view
of a product across all of yoursystems that really showed up
and yeah they had all theproduct managers but it wasn't
getting much traction so I'd saythose two areas content on data
360 and Informatica certainlythe MDM don't rule them out.
They're just not getting muchbuzz right now.
Josh Matthews (49:55):
It's I mean paying attention and you said it
a moment ago to what's notbeing said is a really
interesting take.
I like that I really like thatabout you.
By the way for our liveaudience if you've got a
question feel free to just goahead and post it right here on
our stream.
We're happy to take a look atit.
Scott, let's have you keep theshow going I'm gonna take a peek
(50:15):
at the comments.
Scott Stafford (50:16):
Yeah I think we talked a lot about to why you
should go to TDX.
But one thing moving forwardit's six months away right
before you can actually get todream for so I want to encourage
people to even if your companyis not going to pay for one of
the dreaming events there's alot of them I'm actually going
to be going to dreaming and datanext.
(50:37):
And I want to encourage peoplethat little bit of an investment
if there's one around you andyou can just drive there right
get a ticket it will give you ahead start of where we're going
right if you weren't in the roomI think we we were all there um
on this show other than Joshand we got like a sense of where
the world's going.
So I encourage you don't waitsix months we might not have six
(50:59):
months things are going to movevery quick.
And just get to one of thoseand just those conversations you
know getting that perspectiveright of where things are going
talking to people and then getyour hands on right they gave it
they're giving us the toysright get in there and play with
it.
Josh has been telling us thatthe whole time right start to
use AI right uh for differentuse cases just have fun with it
(51:24):
and explore right and from thereyou know you learn.
Sally ElGhoul (51:28):
So how about you Sally what what kind of advice
would you give for people thatdidn't make it to TDX or that
did I mean what would you tellthem to do next uh I think to
always like look for thecommunity events as well there
is a lot of it uh happening uhonline and um also you can
arrange your sessions you canhelp people to to like learn uh
(51:51):
along the way uh we have as wellcoming like the war tour for
New York we have Toronto WorldTour and we have true north
dreaming like in like area wherelike it's close to me.
So all of those events arehappening soon and people can
decide to join and they will begood opportunity to learn.
(52:12):
So the World Tours are a goodoption as well to to join uh and
the communities online anddefinitely if you can or think
about going to any bigger eventlike if you can book ahead of
time that will help people aswell like make uh some savings
here and there and make it moreaffordable for them definitely
(52:33):
yeah if you're at all thinkingif I'm sorry I'm gonna jump in
real quick Scott if you are atall thinking about going to
Dreamforce and you haven't yetbooked a hotel or an Airbnb
that's something you're gonnawant to do right now today it is
so freaking expensive the theweek of Dreamforce like
(52:53):
ridiculous amounts you know theyjack the prices three, four X.
Josh Matthews (52:57):
So make sure that you're getting um getting a
room recognize you're just goingto sleep when you're there.
You're probably not going to behanging out a lot.
You're gonna be so busy.
I always book a dive because Idon't care like I really don't
like I don't care.
So I just book a dive that'skind of close by because I know
the only thing I'm gonna do ismaybe get six hours of sleep and
(53:18):
then I'm back out at Moscone,right?
So get your uh get your roomingset up your room set up now,
today and then worry aboutgetting the tickets later worry
about getting your flights laterthat'll all come together but
it's the it's the hotel and it'sthe accommodations that can be
a real struggle.
Yeah.
Scott Stafford (53:36):
I actually was going to normalize something too
we we have a golden hoodie abrand new golden hoodie and
there's so many times I go toconferences and and people are
like oh they're like up thereand we can't go and say hi to
them.
So Sally, right?
Would you not welcome a hug ora conversation from anybody?
I mean let's just kind ofnormalize it.
We're all just people right andhow does it feel to be a golden
(53:58):
hoodie and you know talk alittle bit about how we should
just reach out to you guys,right?
That's what you guys are therefor.
Sally ElGhoul (54:04):
Yeah definitely like before or after I'm the
same person I always welcomepeople to come and talk to me
and try to talk to peoplemyself.
So uh like the golden hoodie isa great uh like honor for me
but it doesn't change who I amso I'm a still human person.
Anyone who needs help who wantsto join Code with Sally
(54:26):
sessions they can have questionsthey can or if they see me they
are more than welcome to comeand talk to me for sure.
Josh Matthews (54:41):
All right Sally El Ghoul human person beach horn
i got I got it right this timeright I did I got it right it's
such a cool name I love yourname Scott Stafford I've been
Josh Matthews this has been awonderful little session uh
please join us we'll be back intwo weeks uh same bat time same
bat channel 12 o'clock eastcoast time here on LinkedIn live
(55:04):
again if you missed any part ofthis just watch it on LinkedIn
if you want to listen to it inyour car or on your uh
headphones or on your podcastyou can do that it's the hiring
edge and it's on pretty muchevery platform that you can
find.
Where can folks connect withyou guys?
So Beach, where can theyconnect with you?
Beech Horn (55:22):
LinkedIn's probably the easiest way.
My DMs are open and I'd love tospeak to you.
Sally ElGhoul (55:27):
Wonderful and Sally uh linked in the same and
also Kudui Sally has the atrailblazer community group if
anyone joined they will havelinks for Slack and WhatsApp
communities they can reach outto me there too.
Scott Stafford (55:40):
Wonderful and Scott LinkedIn or you could join
the Rise with Voice communityI'm doing lots of boot camps.
It's a really great opportunityif you join you know you get to
be one-on-one we have a lot ofgreat discourse and then also
any event that you guys see meat do not be shy.
You know just tap me on theshoulders and you'll find out
(56:01):
that I love, I really do lovepeople and I love to get to know
everybody.
Josh Matthews (56:05):
He sure does I'm gonna do a little self-plug on a
couple openings that we've gotright now one is a senior
project manager for small tomidsize SI practice that focuses
focuses on medtech and healthcloud um also have a senior uh
NPC be a configuration pro,someone who can really work on
(56:28):
their own with a client like ownit.
Own the client own the configown the requirements gathering
you're you'll be supported byamazing architects and by a
lovely team.
This is a kind of place wherepeople go and they don't leave
so it's a it's a beautifulsummit partner agent force
partner a lot of growthopportunity a lot of care that
(56:50):
they provide to the employeesthat join their team and then
you get to work in nonprofitsyou get to help help people and
and do things for the greatergood there are a number of other
positions available you canfind that find those by going to
the salesforce recruiter dotcom forward slash job as in job
so again it's the salesforcerecruiter dot com forward slash
job thank you to all my gueststo my terrific co-host Scott
(57:13):
really appreciate youcongratulations again Sally
golden hoodie is no small featreally really happy for you very
proud uh proud of you and allof your accomplishments and
that's code withsally com isthat where they go correct
correct and link it and page anduh community group same thing.
Okay fantastic all right guyswe'll see you in a couple weeks
(57:34):
bye for now
Welcome to the Hiring Edge.
My name is Josh Matthews.
I'm joined today by Beach Horn,Sally El Ghoul, and Scott
Stafford.
Everybody knows who Scott.
He's my co-host.
And Sally, Sally is the brandnew Golden Hoodie member.
Sally, give us uhcongratulations.
Yeah, bravo.
That's not an easy achievement.
(00:21):
Boy, do those things shine.
So maybe you can just tellpeople who you are, what you do,
and how how did you come aboutreceiving the golden hoodie this
year?
Sally ElGhoul (00:31):
So thank you so much, Josh, for having me and
for the great introduction.
And thank you for the greatwishes as well.
So my name is Taliil Ghoul.
I'm based currently in Toronto,Canada.
Uh, I've been in the ecosystemfor 16 years now, so very long
time.
And I've been always like adeveloper, moved to a senior
developer.
Now I'm a lead developer andworking as well in uh sometimes
(00:56):
as the architect as well for theteam.
Uh I'm the founder as well ofCode with Sally, and uh I love
giving back for the community.
Like Salesforce, as I mentionedduring the keynote, changed my
life and family life.
Like we moved from Egypt to UKand then Canada through
Salesforce opportunities.
So I believe in giving back,and that's why I started Code
(01:18):
with Sally.
Uh, it's an initiative with uhweekly live sessions where I
teach people coding or anythingnew I learn.
And uh yeah, I believe uh thatuh was one of the reasons uh
like how I'm giving back andinteracting with the community
and trying to help others learnacross uh my journey and the
path of learning.
Josh Matthews (01:40):
What did it feel like?
What did it feel like to hearyour name and get called up?
Sally ElGhoul (01:48):
Uh it was very, very um like I I was very
nervous and uh at the same timevery excited and honored.
So it's mixed feelings, and Ithink till now I still feel like
I'm processing that thishappened and I got it because
the Golden Hoodie was alwayslike something uh big.
(02:09):
We don't know exactly like howpeople get nominated or
selected.
So I was never like had a wishto have it.
So it's it's a great honor,definitely.
And uh I'm very happy and proudthat I got the chance to talk
and share my story and maybelike uh inspire others to give
(02:30):
back to the community and helpeach other grow.
Josh Matthews (02:34):
Wonderful.
Well, congratulations again,Sally.
It's great to have you on theshow.
And Beach, tell us who are you?
What do you do?
Where do you live?
What do you get up to?
And why did you uh head out toTDX?
I think this was your firsttime at TDX, correct?
Beech Horn (02:48):
Yeah, first time at TDX.
I'm still a bit of a salesforce and Mirosoft noob.
I've only been doing it for acouple of years, but I've been
doing technology for about 30.
So there's a lot oftransferable skills and
learnings and stuff to comeacross.
Yeah.
Um, kick back in London, workfor a security company.
We do locks, alarms, CCTV, allof that kind of jazz.
(03:09):
And I'm a developer turnedarchitect.
So there's still a lot oflearning about what it means to
be an architect and how that'sdifferent from being a developer
or an admin or a manager goingon.
But yeah, um, quite like walks,there's a lot of countryside
near us.
My other half loves riding.
I'm a bit more scared of thehorses, to be fair.
And I really wanted to head outto TDX.
(03:31):
I've been spending a lot oftime with the product managers
and kind of seeing how productsare evolving and getting
involved with insider groups andthings and trying to push
things on.
A lot of content on SalesforceBen, tutorials and articles and
things.
Sure.
So I've been trying to push theproduct.
So there's no better place tospeak to product managers and
speak to people who were tryingto create new and fun things
(03:53):
than to head out to TDX.
Plus, I get to see Sally forthe first time.
And that was an amazing reveal.
That's us watching you in theaudience go from here to it was
a lovely moment, and then thethe terror unwound.
Josh Matthews (04:09):
Scott, as someone who's you know a regular
attendee of Dreaming Events andDream Force and TDX2, for those
who've never been to TDX, whatwhat does it how does it feel
different say to a Dream Force?
And of course, this year is inSan Francisco.
It isn't always, right?
How did it feel different forthe lay person attending a TDX
(04:35):
versus a Dream Force?
Scott Stafford (04:37):
It's a lot smaller.
So that actually brings theopportunity to really build
those authentic relationships.
I mean, there is a fair amountof people there, but compared to
Dream Force, well, you're justoverwhelmed.
I mean, there, you're notnecessarily will you actually
get to see everybody that youwanted to see at Dreamforce.
I had an incredible time.
I mean, you start out, right,you know, a little bit slower,
(05:00):
get there the day before.
I ran over to see Sally at herhotel.
And then the big difference isthere's a lot more emphasis on
hands-on.
I mean, you walk in and you'llsee computers and and different
assets there for you to actuallyget your hands on the keyboard
or get to be part of, you know,whatever technology they have
there.
And I just really think thatalso that opportunity to have it
(05:24):
just be two days, because a lotof times when it's three days
at Dreamforce, you're wiped.
You're wiped and wiped, but youcan give it your all, right?
And go full blast for two days.
So it's pretty magical.
Josh Matthews (05:37):
And who do you think the primary folks are that
should be going, right?
Like, hey, if this is your job,you should go.
And you can't say everybody,but go ahead.
Beech Horn (05:51):
Normally you'd go for like, you know, your
developers, your technicalarchitects, that's the normal
archetype.
Yeah.
But now there's a lot moredeclarative stuff happening.
There's a lot more drag anddrop the agentic layer
experience or multi-platform andthese kind of weird terms.
But it basically what it meansis drag and drop declarative.
So just click and uh clicksrather than code development.
(06:13):
There's a lot more of thathappening, especially with AI.
So even if you're an admin, butyou're someone who creates
things, or even if you're inmarketing and you want to see
how you can get more creative,how can you get more automated?
I'd say TDX is opening thedoors for those kind of avenues.
Josh Matthews (06:30):
What do you guys think the world's gonna be like
in 12 months with vibe?
I I know it's it's like Josh, Idon't know what it's gonna be
in three months, right?
Like AI doesn't feel the sameas it did at Christmas, as far
as I'm I can tell, you know.
But in 12 months, I mean, theterm developer, it's already
(06:55):
changing.
I think we learned that it'sthe low 90 percentile, uh, you
know, over 90%, 92% ofdevelopers are utilizing AI to
some degree.
A lot of developers haveswitched over to using products
like Cursor or Vibes and just tomake certain aspects of
(07:15):
development expedited.
They can run multiple, they candevelop in parallel at the same
time.
I I know some of the newfeatures coming out with Vibes
2, which uh a friend of the showand a friend of mine, Mike
McCullough, worked on over thereat over there at Salesforce,
very bright guy, one of theearliest adopters of Cursor, and
(07:38):
eventually they brought him onover to Salesforce, which makes
a ton of sense.
Now, you know, it's easy.
Like, what are we doing?
Oh, I'm refactoring, or oh, I'mdoing QA, or oh, I'm just doing
like a bug review, or no, I'mactually building here, or I'm
planning, right?
The planner layer, which issort of the architecture layer
of vibes too.
Like now that people like me,I'm smart guy for some things,
(08:02):
I'm a total dumbass for otherthings, right?
Like now, me, I can sit downand I can, I can build robust
software, like good stuff, stuffpeople are gonna use, stuff
people will pay for.
That has really changed thelandscape.
What did you find at TDX?
You know, how did they addressthat?
I mean, going on, going off ofwhat you just said, it's like,
(08:25):
hey, it's now bring that, bringin the admins, bring in the
people who are the builders andthe configuration specialists
and the consultants, bring themdown here to this conference
because guess what?
It's just not for developersand architects because that
skill set has been laid open.
Not perfectly, not perfectly.
And if if we know anythingabout what's happening in the
(08:46):
job market right now, it's thatdemand for architects in
Salesforce, it's up 27%.
Supply is only up 4%, right?
People need more orchestrators,more architects.
That's what I'm finding.
I think that's what the world'sfinding in general.
So what do you think?
Let's go, let's go with you,Beach.
Beech Horn (09:04):
Yeah, they've given you a great set of tools to
accelerate.
The thing is, you canaccelerate in the
straightforward direction towhere you want to be, or you can
accelerate in the oppositedirection away from where you
need to be just as fast.
So you've got these tools andthey're just enablers.
So it becomes how do you addvalue?
How do you orchestrate thingsto kind of get these tools to
(09:28):
work for you?
You know, if you're using ahammer all of the time, you're
not really going to drive thosescrews in properly.
So you've got to think aboutusing the right tools and really
being sure about where you'regoing before you run fast.
Josh Matthews (09:42):
Well, it makes sense.
What about you, Sally?
What do you think?
Sally ElGhoul (09:46):
So I I think, and that's part of like uh I had a
session where we were showinghow the enterprise uh
development and delivering anapp will be changing in while
we're using Vibes and the newMCP servers.
Like I feel we'll become morespending less time writing
everyday like fine codes andmore like spending time of um
(10:09):
requiring gathering, askingquestions, uh, trying to cover
edge cases in our requirementsand spending time as well
planning with the vibe tools orAsian Force Vibes, like what's
the plan of the implementationand reviewing that?
And then we'll becomeorchestrator, like implementing
phases one by one.
But again, I still feel we needthe development skills because
(10:34):
Asian Force Vibes, Cloud, Codex,all the vibe tools will
generate artifacts for us.
But like without the knowledgeof developers and how we can uh
verify if it's good or bad, orif it did a wrong empty pattern
we don't like, we won't be ableto catch those.
It may be fine with a proof ofconcept or like a demo, but it
(10:57):
won't be good for a live likeproduction uh code.
So we need the knowledge toreview and make sure it meets
the criteria we are looking for.
So we'll spend more time in thepre-orchestration and
implementing the phases usingVibe tool, and we'll be
reviewing and making sureeverything is good.
And the other thing I feel weneeded, we need the knowledge
(11:20):
for because sometimes, like youget into a cycle of bugs or
issues, and you can keep goingback and forth with AI tool to
change it or fix it for you.
It can go messy if you go thatroute sometimes, and sometimes
as well, it's burning credits orAPI requests for you
unnecessary.
So sometimes the knowledge aswell can save you time to get
(11:41):
things done faster or like cutit short, save on the budget you
have and the credits you areburning using AI.
So that's like the idea, butdefinitely, definitely, because
I've been using Asian Force fordeveloper before it became Asian
Force Vibes, and I see nowAsian Force Vibes 2.0 coming.
Uh the progressive like uhenhancements the team is working
(12:04):
on is massive, uh, but we haveto get hands-on and get used to
it because again, the more we'llbe using those tools, the more
creative we'll be with like usecases and how we can benefit
from too as well.
Josh Matthews (12:17):
100%.
And I I want to touch onsomething that you just brought
up, which is what these AIdevelopment tools are good at
and where they really suffer.
And certainly one of thoseareas, and I think this is why
going headless can make a lot ofsense for a lot of people, is
the UX can be really tough.
(12:38):
You try and change your font,you know, on an application, and
it's gonna break two otherthings, and it's not gonna
understand you unless you'rereally working with a strong
Figma.
And as a code or as adeveloper, you've probably got
all of your assets and it'sdialed in and you're uploading
that information.
But even then, the output, itjust seems to struggle, or at
least this is what I've noticed,and some friends of mine have
(13:00):
noticed.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Right.
Josh Matthews (13:13):
They sure are, yeah.
And I did see some stuff aboutclaw design.
It seemed like there's somereally decent use cases for it.
Um, you know, very good, verygood use cases for it.
So, but it's still in itsinfancy.
And so there's a lot of thetech that we're that we're
talking about right now.
Let's do a little bit of apivot.
Scott, I'm gonna go to you.
I want you to just talk aboutyou kind of mentioned how it's a
(13:39):
smaller conference, yeah.
A little bit more opportunityto connect.
I don't know a whole lot ofpeople in the world who are born
connectors the way you are.
I mean, you're just Mr.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Sunshine, I think that's what you call them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Scott Stafford (14:01):
I would say though, at this TDX, it started
out.
I mean, if everybody listenedto the keynote, right?
We brought back Sarah Franklin.
It was magical.
And what she's known for,bringing the bling, right?
And that's kind of what I thinkwe're doing in the world,
right?
As Sally pointed out, right, wecan use and spend a lot of time
actually designing the softwarethat we're looking for.
(14:23):
But then we also now have stuffto elevate it to the next
level.
So I'm seeing that we arebringing the being, right, to
the conferences.
You know, we're connecting,there's a lot of excitement in
the air, but then we're alsobringing the bing, right, to be
able to refine the applicationsthat we made.
I saw some of the bestsoftware, right, come out of
Salesforce that I've ever seen,right?
(14:44):
They used vibe coding, they'veused a lot of things to build
that.
And they're elevating yourself.
So kind of think about that.
That's what I kind of thinkabout.
Now that we have these tools,you can spend more time, right,
when it's all done, iterating itand getting it to the next
level, right?
And it's magical.
And we are really excited.
I mean, you probably uh saw alot of pictures of my good
(15:06):
friend Daniel Peters, right?
He was flexing his muscles, andbasically that's where we are
right now.
Salesforce is giving you themuscle, right?
It's the bing, it's theexcitement, right?
We have, you know, we have thetoys, right?
We have everything to do.
And it's just kind of magical.
I along with, you know, gettingpeople to to appreciate that
(15:26):
everybody probably wants to comelook through the looking glass
and go to TDX because you get avision of you know where we're
going, right?
It's also just a lot of fun,right?
You know, just to be part ofthe magic, right?
It's happening so quick.
Like Josh pressed me with,where will we be in one year?
Josh Matthews (15:45):
I don't know.
Good answer.
It's gonna be great.
What do you think is thescariest thing going on right
now?
Beach, let's go to you.
Beech Horn (15:54):
What's the scariest, scariest certainly AI in terms
of security issues?
So we've just had mythos getloose and things.
So there's a lot where youcan't really expect anyone to
attack Salesforce itself, butwe've got things like React on
core, so a whole new web surfaceavailable for Salesforce.
And React's had a really rockyroad, especially before
(16:17):
Christmas.
Um so we've got all of these AItools that are automatically
finding vulnerabilities, andwe've got all these new surfaces
and ways of interacting withSalesforce happening at the same
time.
And if security last yeartaught us anything, that's a
dangerous mix if you've not gotyour security stature down pat.
(16:38):
So all I'd recommend is anyarchitects, any admins out
there.
Security is probably going tobe a growing task to learn, and
you really want to get ahead ofit earlier rather than later.
Josh Matthews (16:49):
How can look, as an architect, Beach, I'm kind of
curious, how would you advise ahiring manager to thoroughly
verify someone's ability tobuild things that are actually,
you know, protected.
Protected, you know.
Beech Horn (17:07):
From certifications and things, but that only get
you so far.
What I would suggest is morethinking of it in the long term.
So you can get people that thatknow this and know that and get
that certified.
But you want to find peoplethat are curious, that are
keeping up to date, they've gota track history of attending
events and learning.
There are different things likeSAPSA is probably the one that
(17:29):
I think is nearest and dearestto my heart, because that
teaches you to orientateanything you do for security
towards business value, whichmeans it's orientating anything
you come up with security togetting funded and actually
turning that back into money thecompany recognizes to enable
them.
So it's thinking about theselong-term things and having a
(17:50):
track history of being curious,being interested, and keeping up
to date.
Josh Matthews (17:54):
And what about for you, Sally?
I mean, how much are youtouching on security,
cybersecurity, wall gardens,this sort of thing, um, when
you're working with the peoplein your community and helping
them to elevate theirdevelopment game?
Sally ElGhoul (18:09):
So from my end, like I wouldn't be that deep as
Beach.
Like I go to Beach for likeknowledge and understanding more
of the security and how I canover overcome it.
But like from what I'velearned, like to be careful with
the context, like uh if you aregetting skills or if you're
getting or using anything fromthe internet, it's better to
(18:31):
build it yourself or likerebuild using your AI tools,
like the skills file, and becareful with it where you are
getting the skills from or thefiles you are downloading to
make sure like you're notgetting anything um you don't
want to have.
And the other thing isdefinitely like uh if we are
using vibe coding and generatingcode, like we go for like the
(18:54):
standard checks and thestandard, like if we are doing
the code ourselves to make surewe are meeting the best
practices we are looking for.
Again, from my end, like keeplearning from people who are
deeper in the topic because it'schanging and trying to be
careful with what I can findonline and uh as well to use my
(19:14):
knowledge to my best ability toreview the outputs.
Josh Matthews (19:19):
Very smart, good advice.
I'm kind of curious, what doyou each feel Salesforce was
trying to land this past week?
Because it's a lot, right?
Because there's there's sort ofwell, there's what's going on,
right?
I mean, if anyone who's been toDreamforce knows this, there's
(19:41):
like there's what's going on,then there's what they're trying
to land, what they're trying tomake sure everyone's taking
away.
You know, what do you think thebig motif is here?
Beech Horn (19:54):
I'd go along with the Parker Harris and the this
headless concept, this idea thatinstead of having a big
monolithic product, your bigSalesforce everyone goes to and
you have everything plugged in,that it's now becoming a bit
more like a tapestry whereyou're going to take little bits
from lots of different areasand weave it together to a
product that makes sense foryou, that's coming to you in
(20:17):
terms of an environment.
If you look at what'ssuccessful at the minute with
AI, you've got open um claw thata lot of people love, which is
the idea that you've got AIagents you interact with via
WhatsApp, via iMessage, viaemail.
And this headless environment,this headless way of doing
things, is now bringing thatsame experience for Salesforce.
(20:38):
So it's meeting the user wherethey are and allowing them to
bring in more tools than justSalesforce into a combined
tapestry of an experience.
And I think that was at leastParker Harris's school of what's
going on.
Sure.
Josh Matthews (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, it may it make sense.
I'm on my open claw all daylong through Slack.
You know, I'm not logging intosome dashboard, you know, and
I'm not having to configure picklists to get it to do things
that I want it to do.
It's just doing it andconnected.
What about you, Sally?
Do you echo what Beach believedwas the sort of main arc of the
(21:13):
conference last week?
Sally ElGhoul (21:14):
That that definitely was a big part for
it, but as a developer, likelydeveloper mindset, I'd be more
like the MCP servers that theyare making it available and like
uh showcasing that the AsianForce Vibe 2.0 will become
better and enhanced.
And at the same time, you canuse those MCP servers if you
(21:35):
want in like uh Cloud or OpenAIcodecs, like other tools, if you
are more comfortable working inother uh vibe coding tools.
And the other piece for it itwas the Asian script because we
have been building and uhimplementing a lot of agents
using the old builder, and wewere missing the part of the
(21:55):
deterministic versus likeprobabilistic uh distinguish in.
The agents we are building.
So I believe that's a bigchange and it's a big like push
towards uh thinking how to makethe agents more efficient and
more secure in that regard aswell, when you need the
deterministic piece ofvalidations or security.
Josh Matthews (22:16):
Can you dumb that down for some of us?
Sally ElGhoul (22:19):
Uh so honestly.
Josh Matthews (22:21):
No, like I I get it.
I don't think everybody's gonnafully understand what you mean
about agent scripts and likewhere was that before and why do
you need it?
And how it's how it'sintegrated.
Yeah.
Sally ElGhoul (22:34):
So before we had the old builder where like
mainly to manage your agent orgive instructions, we were using
just plain English.
And that like was relying onthe LLM mainly like to make the
decisions where what to do orwhat actions to do.
So if for example you have a anagent that needs to verify a
(22:57):
customer first before revealinglike order details, like we
found that based on experimentand people working on it, the
old builder and the agents webuilt with, that sometimes 99 or
80%, 90% it was happening, andsometimes no, and that was a
huge risk.
So Salesforce came with theAsian Force Agent Script, which
(23:19):
is a new language and newbuilder for building agents
where you can have moredeterministic uh input, like if
statements make sure not to orto give the order unless the
user is verified, using ifstatements and the variables in
place.
And you can have two ways to doit, like whether you do the
(23:41):
script and language yourself andwrite it, or they offered as
well a canvas more like peoplewho are used to the flows and
the GUI, or like uh for theflows to have a better way or
easier way to write uh the newuh deterministic if statements
and make sure that we havecontrol over the agents in those
(24:02):
areas where we needed to be100% sure not to do something uh
first uh and uh verify thecustomer.
Josh Matthews (24:10):
Because LL LLMs mess this up all the time.
It's like you must do this, butwait, it's not in brackets,
it's not in caps, and now I'mgoing to ignore you.
And by the way, in about ahundred lines, I'm gonna forget
everything that you just toldme.
So you're you're talking aboutlike really putting the
guardrails in and making it likeyou must absolutely do this.
This is not something thatSonnet 4.6 needs to think about.
(24:32):
You're gonna just do this.
Is that kind of what you mean?
Sally ElGhoul (24:34):
Yes, yes.
And this won't be done throughthe LLMs.
Uh, like it would be throughthe reasoning, Atlas reasoning
engine of Salesforce doing thisuplift for you and make sure
that it's deterministic and 100%we are sure it's happening.
So I feel that's a big changeas well.
Uh as a developer who has beenworking with the agents as well.
Josh Matthews (24:57):
What are you most scared of in the next six
months?
Like, what do you think?
I'm gonna go to Beach on thisone, and then we'll hit Scott
and come back to you, Sally.
There's a lot, there are a lotof tech layoffs happening.
It's very real.
It's not like people didn'tknow this wasn't coming.
(25:18):
It's coming, it's here.
And it's probably going toaccelerate as some of these AI
investments that companies aremaking start to actually work
out and make sense and pay off.
Scott Stafford (25:32):
Yeah.
Josh Matthews (25:32):
So what I'm I'll I'll start and just tell you
what I'm most scared of.
I'm scared that people don'tknow that they need to get their
shit together now.
That's the thing that scares methe most.
That there are really smart,good people out there that
simply are pushing back againstAI and thinking somehow they're
gonna make it.
(25:53):
You know, and unless they're Imean, unless they're out there,
I don't know, helping to repairtractors on a farm or something.
Like, I don't know what they'regonna do with their life,
right?
What do you guys think?
Let's go to U Beach first.
Beech Horn (26:10):
I'm even worried about the people repairing
stuff, the robotics field, whichis like the fourth wave of AI.
We're we're in the third.
That's the fourth wave beforewe get to the fifth.
Even those manual jobs, I'd beworried about saying, go get a
manual trade, you're gonna beokay on here.
Josh Matthews (26:27):
But I think that's still like two year, I
feel like that's still atwo-year-old.
Beech Horn (26:31):
In the six-month area.
Josh Matthews (26:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Beech Horn (26:34):
There's a lot of jobs where you're not adding
value, where you're notcommunicating with the business,
where you're not able toarticulate.
If you can't articulate yourjob to train someone else, you
can't articulate your job toautomate it with AI.
So there's a lot of people thatfeel that they're in these jobs
where they're never promoted.
The reason they're neverpromoted is no one can ever
understand what they actuallydo.
(26:55):
Those kind of jobs are kind ofat risk because AI can start to
figure out what they're able todo.
So it's a matter of don't makeyourself invaluable, make
yourself replaceable, whichseems counterintuitive, but it
means you're able tocommunicate, you're able to
move, and you're able to change.
And there's uh a wonderful bookcalled Who Moved My Cheese?
And the top line from that isI've been out for some time.
(27:18):
Yeah, exactly.
What would you do if youweren't afraid?
There's in uh Punjabi myth,it's the idea of in order to
move, you need to be uprootedfrom where you are and replanted
somewhere else.
And it's that uprooting canfeel hurtful, but you need to do
it in order to be able to move.
Josh Matthews (27:36):
100%.
Thanks for sharing that, Beach.
What do you think, Scott?
What's the scariest thing aboutchanges?
Scott Stafford (27:44):
What I see that being really scary is people's
past experiences, their pastbeliefs of where technology is
going is gonna hold them back.
To actually imagine a world,try and figure out what the
world's looking for.
People want to be on theirtech, right, in remote areas.
They want this.
They're actually asking, right,for a headless, right?
(28:05):
And so many people, I think,are slowing down.
They're like, well, agentforce, agent force, it's not
gonna happen.
And it did happen, right?
And the agents are here.
So don't, you know, learn fromthat lesson and make sure you
don't hold yourself back.
Try and envision a world that'sactually coming.
We're literally gonna betalking to our computers, right?
There's gonna be holograms.
This future world, right, iscoming one day.
(28:27):
So I really worry that a lot ofpeople are slowing down, trying
to say, well, coding's notgonna be like that.
Uh the one of the things Ireally, really appreciate about
Sally is she is known, right, asa coding expert, right?
You know, it's code with Sally,but she's always telling people
embrace the new tools, right?
Get in there, find out how theyuse them, and then get to the
(28:48):
next level.
So that's what I'm worriedabout that people will actually
be great, you know, assets, butactually because they don't dive
in, right, they won't takeadvantage of the future.
Josh Matthews (28:59):
Totally agree.
Sally, let's get your thoughtson this.
Sally ElGhoul (29:02):
Yeah, so I I guess mine is mainly two areas.
Like one of them is that weneed to keep up and things are
changing super fast.
So we have to be in the mindsetevery day we have to learn
something new and teach someoneelse while we are learning.
Uh, because it's a lot.
If I will learn on my own, Ican't finish everything.
(29:23):
So if I know something, I shareit.
You know something, you shareit, and we all benefit.
The second part is I feel, yes,there is people who are afraid
of the technology and they don'twant to embrace the change.
That worries me because I see alot of brilliant people and I
don't want them to be left out.
But on the other side as well,I see a lot of newcomers coming
(29:46):
in.
And what worries me is thatthey leave the basics, they
don't learn how to do things andthey jump in AI, and that's
risky too, because we'll havepeople who use the AI very in a
very like impressive way, butthey cannot tell if it did a
good job or not.
And that can be risky and canlead to issues, security or
(30:09):
performance or anti-patterns uhincluded.
So I feel those two categoriesof people are scary, like
because we need the knowledgeand we need to know how to use
the AI.
So we have to be balancedbetween the two and we have to
keep learning because it'schanging super fast.
It's a lot.
Josh Matthews (30:27):
So fast, so fast.
I'm kind of curious, Sally,what's the mistake you're
already seeing customers makingwith AI agents on Salesforce?
Are you seeing them makemistakes regularly?
Sally ElGhoul (30:39):
I feel uh what I saw is either not being
open-minded that let's go andstart and try it, or sometimes
the clients jump in in a thebiggest use case that they wish
ever to implement.
And it's a learning curve forthe developers and for them like
to know how to express whatthey want.
(31:01):
And sometimes that makes theoutput not as like as for
example, they shut down thewhole project.
So my advice is always likestart small, and I like to I
love employee agents.
I feel it like uh when we areworking with uh agent force
agents, like it's a sweet spotbecause it's not
(31:23):
customer-facing, it's lessrisky.
Uh, like developers andemployees can take time to learn
how to implement it andexperiment internally, and they
will build the confidence andthe know-how, how to think
because it's a different mindsetof thinking on achieving the
changes.
So once we experiment with theemployee agent, we will have the
(31:44):
knowledge as developers orteam.
The business will get thebenefit and they will fall in
love with it, and then we canexpand beyond that.
So I believe start small andextend.
Josh Matthews (31:54):
Look, I gotta just put a big fat exclamation
point on top of what you justsaid here, because it is so
critical.
And I've seen it where peoplejust they're they're like, I
know what I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna go eat that elephantright now on something that I
don't even really fullyunderstand.
And I've I've seen it happen intech over the last 25 years, 30
years almost, that like it'sjust like don't do that.
(32:15):
Like, just don't do that.
And even for myself, when Ifirst started with some some AI
with using perplexity computerand then moved to open claw, and
it was like, okay, I'm I'm notjumping, I'm not just sticking
all this stuff into like myQuickBooks and my Salesforce
right away.
Let's just try some basicmarketing stuff.
Let's see how that goes.
(32:36):
I wanted to start a launch anew business, which is probably
gonna come out in a couple,couple months, but it's like,
well, let's see if I can justuse AI to open up a quick little
t-shirt shop in a weekend,right?
And I did it.
And it's like, okay, I justwant to see how this is working
and how it's it's just a testcase.
I'm not gonna make a dime onthe thing, but it was just a
test case and it was fun, funlittle experiment.
(32:59):
So, yeah, start small, right?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
You don't uh it's true.
(33:28):
It's true.
Josh Matthews (33:31):
Yesterday I did this thing, I I just thought,
oh, this will be fun.
Um on this one project I'mworking on.
I've got 74 tasks, right, thatI need to get done.
And I had a list and it justtriaged.
I was like, uh, can we makethis into a Kanban?
Yeah, sure, let me do that.
Here you go.
And I was like, okay, can wemake it so that if I click on it
(33:51):
on some like little lightningbolt, it populates our thread
and you take the first action onit?
It's like, yeah, sure, done.
It was it was three minutes ofwork and two minutes of
rendering and it was done.
And it was like, oh my God,there's so much power that
there's practically no excusesfor low productivity anymore.
Right.
And I think one other thingbefore we kind of move on,
(34:13):
Scott, I know you've got somestuff to share.
I think people should beterrified of how efficient they
can be.
And if they don't feelhyper-efficient, they should be
terrified about how efficientothers can be.
And I'm telling you thisbecause I know it for a fact.
Hiring managers don't yet knowthis.
The people listening to my showmight, but in gen pop out there
(34:38):
in the real world, most hiringmanagers don't know what's
actually possible.
What having a Sally or having abeach or having a Scott or
having a Josh on their teamcould mean when they actually
have like, okay, look, here'syour $50,000 of credits a year,
like use them wisely, off yougo.
You know, like let's go buildsome stuff.
When it happens, when theycatch up, we're going to see
(35:03):
this split, I think.
The haves and the have nots,the broke and the successful,
there's not going to be aneeking by anymore.
There's going to be you'remaking it or you're not, you're
relevant or you're not.
And this sort of gray middlezone is going to be very fuzzy.
And those are just going to bethe people who are trying to get
(35:25):
up.
You know, but if they're notworking towards that like
competency to break into thattop 30% of producers out there
in the world, they're going tofind that they're in the bottom
with everybody else.
And so they go and get beach toyour point earlier.
They're like, well, I know whatI'll do.
I'll go um start a pressurewashing business.
And now they're competing withsome guy who's got a Tesla
(35:46):
driving, self-driving truck, andtwo robots in the backseat who
are going out and doing it.
And he's sitting back, and allhe had to do was spend 150 grand
on some robots and soap.
You know, like it's crazy.
Beech Horn (35:57):
It's six grand now for a biped robot being used by
BMW in their factories.
The price is ridiculously low.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Josh Matthews (36:07):
Yeah.
It's crazy.
Hey, by the way, we've got uh anumber of people watching this
program.
Welcome.
Thank you for joining us.
You are watching the HiringEdge.
It's live here on LinkedIn.
We are joined by Sally ElGhoul, one of the most recent
Golden Hoodie award winners.
Um, just kind of last week atTDX out in San Francisco.
(36:27):
We've got Beach with us, we'vegot Scott with us.
We thank you for being here.
We hope that you're going tosubscribe to this channel and
show up every couple weeks.
If you missed the first part,don't worry about it.
On LinkedIn, you can justrewind and you can watch the
whole darn thing.
You can also, by next Tuesdayor Wednesday, you can listen to
this.
If you're not as visual aperson, you can listen to this.
(36:47):
Just go to thehiringedge.ai orjust type in the hiring edge
anywhere uh you like to listento podcasts, Spotify, Apple, and
about 20 other places.
Okay, with that in mind, Scott,what haven't we covered about
TDX that's really important forus and our audience to
understand?
Scott Stafford (37:05):
Yeah, I want to tag back onto something that
Sally said before I touch onthat.
She said, you know, we build itsmall, right?
Don't just start with a hugeelephant, but build it and then
build it so that they'll fall inlove with it.
Right.
I I was just thinking when shesaid that, that is so powerful.
That's the bing, right?
That's what Sarah Franklin'sall about, right?
Let's, we have the tools.
Don't you want to awe peoplewith what is actually possible,
(37:28):
right?
So start small, then iteratethrough it.
And actually, when you showcasewhat you made with AI, show
them something that is beyondanything, right?
Thing you could have ever donewithout those tools.
Because we have new tools andwe can now do amazing things.
So I was just gonna uh piggy onthat.
I also want to encourage adifferent aspect of TDX, right?
(37:49):
We've we've talked a lot abouthow things are moving so
quickly.
You posed one question that wasa little bit scary.
Where are we gonna be in a yearfrom now?
And the reason why you shouldget to Dreamforce, which is less
than six months, and TDX now isactually just to get the
opportunity to see where theworld's going.
Look through the looking glass.
It's all about them showing theworld, right, that they want to
(38:13):
build, but it doesn't exist yetunless we all buy in and get
excited about it.
So as I left there, I go, wow,that's an incredible world.
Isn't that what we're lookingfor?
Right.
I really don't want to have toalways be on my computer or just
to not be able to buildin-grounded conversation.
I'm in Slack and I love it,right?
(38:34):
And so that's just something Iwant to encourage everybody.
Maybe it's time to start goingto a few more conferences
because things are moving fast.
You can't literally wait oneyear to see the next beaker of
where we're going.
You you might need to check inevery three months.
Josh Matthews (38:50):
So let's do this.
I'm I'm really curious.
What are you guys tracking andfollowing to get a sense of how
things are changing?
I imagine some of it's justgonna be hands-on.
It's like, oh, I didn't know Icould do that, right?
Um, but is there a, you know,is there a blog?
Is there um a community?
Is it Ohana Slack?
Is it just getting in there andworking on it?
(39:10):
Like, what is it?
Beech Horn (39:11):
There's about 12 different sources.
You've got to be speaking topeople on Slacks, their product
managers, their fellowarchitects, you've got to be
keeping on top of the blogs,you've got to be keeping on top
of uh general YouTube chatterthat's happening.
There's different specialistconsultancies, and also watch
out for what isn't mentioned.
So a big one, for instance, iswhere's Omni Studio?
(39:34):
When's the fact that it didn'tjoin the ALX, the AXL, this
agent experience layer?
Is that the next candidate tobe fallen off looking at the
trajectory of things?
Yeah.
Field service had a big dreamforce with hybrid workforce,
drones, robots being added.
There's no talk of that when itgets the computer vision stuff
at TDX this year.
(39:56):
So it's like just trying tofind the weave of where things
are and where they're heading.
But yeah, you've got to bewide.
There's so much, and it'sgrabbing what makes sense to
you.
And don't be afraid to joininternational virtual
communities.
So there's a lot of likeAustralia's just had a big
session.
There's a big session in India.
Yeah.
There's if you're interested inthese areas, you can join them.
Josh Matthews (40:18):
And you know, you can you can build a little
agent that's just capturingeverything.
I mean, that's what I do.
I wake up and I see the resultsof 20 different uh periodicals
that I'm tracking, right?
The important stuff that's justimportant to me, and I can
click on it and go into it.
You can build that with like avery low-cost perplexity
(40:39):
computer kind of model, or ifyou're in open claw, you can
build that for yourself.
But it's sort of like readingthe summary of a book.
It's not the same as itintegrating into your, you know,
bloodstream the knowledge,right?
So it really does make sense tonot just read headlines.
It makes sense to get in thereand then be like, oh, I'm gonna
try this.
(41:00):
I know that for me, when MikeMcCula first inspired me about
14 months to do some deep AIdive, I I committed on the show
two Februaries ago.
Okay, I'm gonna spend 20 hourstrying to get better at this,
you know.
And by the end of the month,I'd put like 70 hours in because
I just I was like addicted, youknow, and and couldn't get
(41:22):
enough of it.
But the idea that like you justget in there and live it and
breathe it and work it, you'llfind that you're not gonna want
to sit in a silo and wake up insix months and notice that the
world has changed.
You're gonna want to always seewhat's going on.
So I think it's a naturalprogression for that 30% that
are gonna make it.
They're doing what you'redoing, Beach.
(41:44):
Beach.
Beech Horn (41:44):
Yeah, Mike McCooler joining Salesforce, I wrote
reached out to him straight awaybecause that was a big sign.
That was when I first startedlooking at Agent Force Vibe.
Seriously, that sent a signal.
Josh Matthews (41:55):
Yeah, big time.
Big time.
He actually, I don't thinkhe'll mind me saying this.
I got him a job offer at agreat company.
He turned it down because hegot the job at Salesforce.
And honestly, I couldn't behappier for him.
He is so in his wheelhouseright now.
And instead of being like anearly adopter and a user, he's
actually building it.
And that's an incredibleposition to be in.
He's it's always exciting totalk to him.
(42:17):
What a great attitude and whata real inspiration, always on
the bleeding edge of what'shappening in vibe coding.
Yeah.
What haven't we covered that wereally should cover?
I mean, we've been talking kindof in general terms about AI,
what people should be doing.
Let's get back, let's just reelourselves back to TDX for just
a moment.
Was there an aha scott?
(42:38):
Was there something that showedup for you when you were there
that you're like, oh my God.
Just this thing here made thewhole conference and trip
worthwhile.
Scott Stafford (42:51):
I think really understanding the whole headless
concept.
That really, you know, I wasalready using um the Slack bot,
you know, as part of the get fitmovement.
And I was wowed.
I thought, hey, this is reallygreat.
We were all kind of geekingout, really asking it more and
more questions as the movementwent along.
And then just kind of thinking,like, wow, this could be
(43:13):
anywhere, right?
It doesn't have to just be inSlack, right?
I mean, soon, right, we caneven have these things on our
glasses where we, you know, youcould touch a button and ask it
a question.
And I'm just, it was just likea moment to think of the future.
I mean, it was already there.
I mean, you already kind ofthought, well, we're gonna get
there one day.
But when I saw that and I sawthem present it, I go, wow, it's
(43:35):
here now.
Yeah.
That's that was my awe moment.
I was just like, wow.
And I was a little bit scaredand a little bit excited all at
the same time.
Josh Matthews (43:44):
Yeah, it's happening fast.
What about you, Sally?
Sally ElGhoul (43:47):
So from my end, like I would love in general to
give an advice for anyone who'sgoing to DX or Dreamforce.
I love the hands on sessions uhbecause it's a good way like to
sit down, try something.
something and work on it.
Besides like the the Asianforce vibes like area to play
with it or the quests uh thereis the hands-on sessions and
(44:10):
those usually like they go fastand they are filled like uh once
they say like the agendabuilder is up I usually go and
try to book my seats in thosesessions and I believe those are
priceless because it's usuallyone hour or maybe longer heads
down trying something new andlearning from the experts so I
(44:30):
would love people to takeadvantage of those if they are
going to TDX or Dreamforce.
And the other part I love somuch is going to the booth to
the product teams and talk tothem because they are like they
explain to you simpler words andone-on-one basis like what's in
new in the like the product andwhat are the new features and
(44:53):
they can give you demos and thenyou can discuss with them and
ask your questions.
So it helps with the learningso much.
Those are the most like greatexperience that I usually have
when I go to the events and alsoif anyone is heading to them
consider going to the boot campsas well because I love the
three days heads down learningin a topic that I choose.
(45:16):
This is something like ifsomeone can afford like the
expense for it and they aregoing and they're willing to do
it that's a great opportunityyou're there go early heads down
three days learn something getthe certificates it always feels
like amazing to to to achievethat while there too.
Josh Matthews (45:35):
Sally do you want to just take a moment and just
drop in a message here right nowthat employers should send
their folks to TDX?
Sally ElGhoul (45:46):
100% yeah 100% and I I I didn't go to
Dreamforce and TDX a long timeago like this one was my third
TDX but I would say like theexperience and knowledge I've
been gaining by going to TDX andDreamforce is like priceless
and it's worth it because withthe bootcamps I have the three
(46:06):
days heads down like I learn andI ask questions and I come back
always with new things that Ineed to change at work or for my
team and it always was a greatimpact.
And the same for TDX andDreamforce this is how I knew
like about when it was co-pilotor prompt template like it's all
new stuff that I can learn onmy own but it will take me
(46:30):
longer being in the events andasking questions and how for
example I was able to buildagents and deliver like and
making an impact for myemployer.
Beech Horn (46:39):
And also the bootcamp uh is priceless again
like it's it's so let's do let'sdo something fun then that's
great Sally Beach someone offersyou let's just imagine fantasy
land there's a there's a job itdoesn't have to be fantasy land
and someone keeps slidingsomething around let's try not
to do that because it's kind ofmaking some noise but let's
imagine Beach someone offers youa job one job is 200 grand 200
(47:05):
000 pounds a year okay the otherjob is 1920 pounds but you're
gonna get to go to a boot campand dream force you know 192 gay
one absolutely because yeahthat that might be one year two
years but then you're on there'stwo different trajectories for
your life at that point one isyou're growing exponentially the
(47:28):
other one is you're plateauingand if you're staying still
you're actually decreasingnowadays yeah yeah I just I
don't see this enough you knowit's like even even these little
dreaming events it's like I'llsee some of my clients and it's
like oh so and so's gonna go tothat dreaming event like that's
(47:48):
great like 600 bucks you knowit's nothing it's 200 to get in
it's four you know maybe 300 forthe hotel or 400 for the hotel
and and a three hour drive rightlike it's nothing you know and
I'm always surprised not justfrom the client side but really
from the SI partner side at howhow small these events actually
(48:13):
are and yet we've got what howmany users?
How many people are actually inthe ecosystem I mean tens and
tens and tens hundreds ofthousands what's up beach say
that again so even the peoplethat are going to it though are
normally the ones that you'llwant to learn from so the fact
that there's a a subset going isactually a really good sign.
(48:36):
You get a lot more signal tonoise and even applying to speak
so if you're an SI, why aren'tyou speaking?
Why aren't you an expert inyour field?
Why aren't you honing yourskills to get on that stage?
Josh Matthews (48:49):
Yeah exactly exactly okay Beach anything that
they left out or that we'veleft out from this show that you
think it's absolutely a hundredpercent critical important or
insightful for people to walkaway from this episode with I
would say for from the TDX pointof view content on data 360 I
(49:09):
see no one talking about this.
Beech Horn (49:11):
That means you can bring in story block you can
bring your content managementsystem you're damn into React on
core and into your marketingmessages and that's a real
indication of where things aregoing.
And the other one isInformatica Informatica showed
up on force so if you're havingproblems with data 360 with
unification with getting agolden record for getting one
(49:32):
view of your customer across allof your systems and or one view
of a product across all of yoursystems that really showed up
and yeah they had all theproduct managers but it wasn't
getting much traction so I'd saythose two areas content on data
360 and Informatica certainlythe MDM don't rule them out.
They're just not getting muchbuzz right now.
Josh Matthews (49:55):
It's I mean paying attention and you said it
a moment ago to what's notbeing said is a really
interesting take.
I like that I really like thatabout you.
By the way for our liveaudience if you've got a
question feel free to just goahead and post it right here on
our stream.
We're happy to take a look atit.
Scott, let's have you keep theshow going I'm gonna take a peek
(50:15):
at the comments.
Scott Stafford (50:16):
Yeah I think we talked a lot about to why you
should go to TDX.
But one thing moving forwardit's six months away right
before you can actually get todream for so I want to encourage
people to even if your companyis not going to pay for one of
the dreaming events there's alot of them I'm actually going
to be going to dreaming and datanext.
(50:37):
And I want to encourage peoplethat little bit of an investment
if there's one around you andyou can just drive there right
get a ticket it will give you ahead start of where we're going
right if you weren't in the roomI think we we were all there um
on this show other than Joshand we got like a sense of where
the world's going.
So I encourage you don't waitsix months we might not have six
(50:59):
months things are going to movevery quick.
And just get to one of thoseand just those conversations you
know getting that perspectiveright of where things are going
talking to people and then getyour hands on right they gave it
they're giving us the toysright get in there and play with
it.
Josh has been telling us thatthe whole time right start to
use AI right uh for differentuse cases just have fun with it
(51:24):
and explore right and from thereyou know you learn.
Sally ElGhoul (51:28):
So how about you Sally what what kind of advice
would you give for people thatdidn't make it to TDX or that
did I mean what would you tellthem to do next uh I think to
always like look for thecommunity events as well there
is a lot of it uh happening uhonline and um also you can
arrange your sessions you canhelp people to to like learn uh
(51:51):
along the way uh we have as wellcoming like the war tour for
New York we have Toronto WorldTour and we have true north
dreaming like in like area wherelike it's close to me.
So all of those events arehappening soon and people can
decide to join and they will begood opportunity to learn.
(52:12):
So the World Tours are a goodoption as well to to join uh and
the communities online anddefinitely if you can or think
about going to any bigger eventlike if you can book ahead of
time that will help people aswell like make uh some savings
here and there and make it moreaffordable for them definitely
(52:33):
yeah if you're at all thinkingif I'm sorry I'm gonna jump in
real quick Scott if you are atall thinking about going to
Dreamforce and you haven't yetbooked a hotel or an Airbnb
that's something you're gonnawant to do right now today it is
so freaking expensive the theweek of Dreamforce like
(52:53):
ridiculous amounts you know theyjack the prices three, four X.
Josh Matthews (52:57):
So make sure that you're getting um getting a
room recognize you're just goingto sleep when you're there.
You're probably not going to behanging out a lot.
You're gonna be so busy.
I always book a dive because Idon't care like I really don't
like I don't care.
So I just book a dive that'skind of close by because I know
the only thing I'm gonna do ismaybe get six hours of sleep and
(53:18):
then I'm back out at Moscone,right?
So get your uh get your roomingset up your room set up now,
today and then worry aboutgetting the tickets later worry
about getting your flights laterthat'll all come together but
it's the it's the hotel and it'sthe accommodations that can be
a real struggle.
Yeah.
Scott Stafford (53:36):
I actually was going to normalize something too
we we have a golden hoodie abrand new golden hoodie and
there's so many times I go toconferences and and people are
like oh they're like up thereand we can't go and say hi to
them.
So Sally, right?
Would you not welcome a hug ora conversation from anybody?
I mean let's just kind ofnormalize it.
We're all just people right andhow does it feel to be a golden
(53:58):
hoodie and you know talk alittle bit about how we should
just reach out to you guys,right?
That's what you guys are therefor.
Sally ElGhoul (54:04):
Yeah definitely like before or after I'm the
same person I always welcomepeople to come and talk to me
and try to talk to peoplemyself.
So uh like the golden hoodie isa great uh like honor for me
but it doesn't change who I amso I'm a still human person.
Anyone who needs help who wantsto join Code with Sally
(54:26):
sessions they can have questionsthey can or if they see me they
are more than welcome to comeand talk to me for sure.
Josh Matthews (54:41):
All right Sally El Ghoul human person beach horn
i got I got it right this timeright I did I got it right it's
such a cool name I love yourname Scott Stafford I've been
Josh Matthews this has been awonderful little session uh
please join us we'll be back intwo weeks uh same bat time same
bat channel 12 o'clock eastcoast time here on LinkedIn live
(55:04):
again if you missed any part ofthis just watch it on LinkedIn
if you want to listen to it inyour car or on your uh
headphones or on your podcastyou can do that it's the hiring
edge and it's on pretty muchevery platform that you can
find.
Where can folks connect withyou guys?
So Beach, where can theyconnect with you?
Beech Horn (55:22):
LinkedIn's probably the easiest way.
My DMs are open and I'd love tospeak to you.
Sally ElGhoul (55:27):
Wonderful and Sally uh linked in the same and
also Kudui Sally has the atrailblazer community group if
anyone joined they will havelinks for Slack and WhatsApp
communities they can reach outto me there too.
Scott Stafford (55:40):
Wonderful and Scott LinkedIn or you could join
the Rise with Voice communityI'm doing lots of boot camps.
It's a really great opportunityif you join you know you get to
be one-on-one we have a lot ofgreat discourse and then also
any event that you guys see meat do not be shy.
You know just tap me on theshoulders and you'll find out
(56:01):
that I love, I really do lovepeople and I love to get to know
everybody.
Josh Matthews (56:05):
He sure does I'm gonna do a little self-plug on a
couple openings that we've gotright now one is a senior
project manager for small tomidsize SI practice that focuses
focuses on medtech and healthcloud um also have a senior uh
NPC be a configuration pro,someone who can really work on
(56:28):
their own with a client like ownit.
Own the client own the configown the requirements gathering
you're you'll be supported byamazing architects and by a
lovely team.
This is a kind of place wherepeople go and they don't leave
so it's a it's a beautifulsummit partner agent force
partner a lot of growthopportunity a lot of care that
(56:50):
they provide to the employeesthat join their team and then
you get to work in nonprofitsyou get to help help people and
and do things for the greatergood there are a number of other
positions available you canfind that find those by going to
the salesforce recruiter dotcom forward slash job as in job
so again it's the salesforcerecruiter dot com forward slash
job thank you to all my gueststo my terrific co-host Scott
(57:13):
really appreciate youcongratulations again Sally
golden hoodie is no small featreally really happy for you very
proud uh proud of you and allof your accomplishments and
that's code withsally com isthat where they go correct
correct and link it and page anduh community group same thing.
Okay fantastic all right guyswe'll see you in a couple weeks
(57:34):
bye for now
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