June 10, 2026 • 52 mins
The Salesforce job market is finally showing a pulse, but it is not a comeback story. We sit down with Sasha Semyonova, a leading tech journalist at Salesforce Ben, to unpack what the latest hiring signals really mean for Salesforce careers, from admins and developers to architects and ISVs. If you have been watching job boards fill up with “unicorn” roles and deflating salaries, you are not imagining it, and we explain why it keeps happening.
We talk candidly about the realities candidates face right now: market saturation, ghost jobs, layoffs, and the growing influence of AI on staffing decisions. Sasha shares what she is seeing across the Salesforce ecosystem, including the shift toward specialized specialists who can blend platform knowledge with business analysis, architecture thinking, and practical AI skills. We also dig into why blasting out AI-generated resumes is a losing strategy for most people and how being undeniably human can still cut through the noise when everyone else looks the same on paper.
Then we look ahead. Headless Salesforce, a Slack-first workflow, Agentforce, and rapid UI changes are reshaping how users interact with the platform and what employers will expect next. For ISVs and partners, we cover the pressure to build agent-oriented solutions and the simple question that matters most: what do customers actually want from AI?
Subscribe for more honest market breakdowns, share this with someone job hunting in Salesforce, and leave a review with your biggest question about where the ecosystem is headed next.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Matthews (00:00):
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to the hiring edge.
We have with us co-host ScottStafford and our very special
guest, Sasha Semyonova.
Sasha, you guys know her.
You've read her writing, andyou might not even have known it
because she is one of theforemost authors, tech
journalists for Salesforce Ben.
And today is her very firsttime on a podcast.
(00:24):
We're really excited to haveyou here today.
I don't think there's probablyanyone in the audience who isn't
influenced in some way, shape,or form by the output that
occurs on the platformSalesforce Ben.
Ben McCarthy's done an amazingjob growing from what was a
simple blog into the foremostauthority on all things
(00:47):
Salesforce journalistically.
And you're a big part of that.
So today's episode isspecifically to talk about what
the heck is going on in the jobmarket.
Now we do this about once aquarter, don't we?
And sometimes there are changesand sometimes not a lot.
I don't know that we've had amassive amount of changes since
(01:10):
our last episode around January,uh, early February, around uh
that time.
But we also weren't in themiddle of the hiring season
either, and that's what we're inright now.
So I think that there's achange.
I think that there's been AIacceleration, and we're gonna
talk about it right now.
So maybe you can, Sasha, forus, tell us what's it really
(01:33):
like to be a tech journalistfocused on Salesforce?
Sasha Semjonova (01:37):
Um, busy, definitely busy.
I feel like there is not asingle quiet day.
Um, I've been doing this forjust under four years.
And uh yeah, it just feels likealmost every quarter, sometimes
every month, there's somethingkind of new that's happening
within the ecosystem, a trendthat we're kind of picking up
(01:57):
on.
Um, and to be honest, over thelast few years, reporting on the
job market has at times felt alittle bit depressing just
because of where the Salesforcejob market and the tech, you
know, the wider tech job markettoo has been and the changes
that it's been navigating, likeum the fallout from COVID over
hiring, obviously the emergenceof AI and layoffs and all kinds
(02:21):
of things like that.
But I would say in the lastmaybe six months, things have
seen a slight, ever so slightkind of turn up because we are
noticing that hiring across theboard is up marginally in the
Salesforce ecosystem.
Again, nothing that anybodyshould be like, oh my gosh, you
know, let's change strategiescompletely.
(02:42):
But we are seeing that kind ofuptick ever so slightly across
the board, which is after thenews we've been seeing over the
last few years, very, verypromising.
Josh Matthews (02:51):
Yeah, right.
I mean, flat was the new up sixmonths ago.
Yeah.
And just stopping the bleedingmattered.
And now I feel like we're infor, I don't even want to say
like a long, slow heel becauseit's still tech, which means
it's still volatile, you know,but it's certainly better than
(03:12):
before.
I think 10K advisors reportedum early last, you know, late
summer, early autumn when theycame out with their report,
about an 8% uptick in hiring,but that's against the backdrop
of about a 35% drop in hiring.
And so while we've made up alittle bit of ground, you know,
we haven't made up all theground.
(03:33):
And I don't think, and I'llI've said this in most episodes,
yeah, that heyday that we saw,that post-COVID boom, that's
unlikely to return, you know, atleast for 15 years.
I kind of appreciate that.
I just think it's unlikely.
Scott Stafford (03:48):
I kind of appreciate where we are, where
Salesforce is actually seeingwhat's happening.
And they recently uh dedicatedto hiring some new call grads.
So that was kind of excited, athousand new jobs.
So I think it's good thatthey're paying attention and and
at least, you know, doing whatthey can.
So it's good news, right?
I mean, we have a littleuptick, things are looking
(04:08):
better.
Let's get this actuallypositive, you know, as as much
as we can for people.
Get that mindset, you know,there's opportunity out there.
Josh Matthews (04:17):
Well, the and and there is.
So let's talk about that.
When you're what are you seeingfrom your position as far as
where is the actual opportunity?
Because it's not what it was 18months ago, right?
And for those who are maybejust tuning in the first time,
or this is the first time thatthey're like, I really want to
learn more about what'shappening in the ecosystem.
(04:38):
The quick math on what used tobe is that um you could get a
certification, go get a job for60, 65 grand in the US, um, be
making 100K within two or threeyears or more as an admin, jump
on trailheads, get more certs,get more money, and uh the world
was your oyster.
That changed.
(04:59):
It's not the case anymore.
So I'd like to hear from you,Sasha.
What is it that you're seeingspecifically?
Sasha Semjonova (05:05):
Yeah, I think there's um, I think
professionals across the boardneed to be kind of very aware
that demand, you know, still uhis still quite different to the
supply.
The supply outweighs the demandquite a lot.
I think it's something like umuh 330% or something like that,
(05:26):
which is not a great number.
Um, but the main thing is thatwe're noticing is that
especially as hiring has begunto pick up, is the fact that
these kind of what I callspecialized specialists are
needed more than ever.
So it's almost like sayinggoodbye to your traditional
admin, your traditionaldeveloper, maybe even your
(05:46):
traditional architect, becauseemployers are looking for sales
for specialists who can wear asmany hats as possible, who can
um take on, you know,architectural skills, business
analyst skills, AI skills,perhaps most importantly.
And they're the professionalsthat are being sought after.
I think, you know, we've beensaying for a long time that the
(06:07):
market is different now andthings are different.
They will not go back to theway they were before.
I think people are beginning tounderstand that.
I think what the understandingneeds to be now is okay, how do
I change my skill set?
Change, you know, what I'mlearning on, working on, so I
can almost seem more employablebecause unfortunately it is an
(06:29):
employer's market at the moment.
It is not an employees' market.
And I think focusing on thoseskills that are going to really
make you stand out, becausestanding out is harder than it's
ever been before, is gonna bethe most important thing for
sure.
Josh Matthews (06:43):
That makes an awful lot of sense.
And you're you're not wrong.
I mean, the the idea ofstanding out, and we've talked
about this before, I keep sayingthat, but when you can go pay
500 bucks to get your resumepounded to 500 different job
posts every single day of theweek for like three months, uh,
(07:04):
people are doing it, and youfire off your AI resume using AI
to a bunch of jobs, and guesswhat?
It works for a small handful ofpeople, right up until they
talk to you and get to know youand realize you're not even
close to a freaking fit, right?
There's still a human elementin here.
So there's there's upskillingso that you're relevant, and
(07:28):
then there's conveying and beingable to communicate that you
have the qualities that they'relooking for.
And what is the experience likefor candidates today that's
different than maybe it was sixmonths ago or nine months ago or
even 12 months ago?
Do you have a sense of thatthrough your work?
Sasha Semjonova (07:46):
Yeah, I would say so.
And that's a really interestingquestion.
I think the job market at themoment is perhaps not the
hardest it's ever been, butapplicants have the most kind of
components and situations thatthey have to face in order to
get a job and to remainsuccessful in their market.
(08:07):
They're up against, you know,ghost jobs, they're up against
uh layoffs, they're up againstum saturation in the market.
That's not just Salesforce,that's across tech.
They're up against, okay, um,you know, I've implemented this
AI agent that can do the jobinstead of this person I was
gonna hire.
That situation isn't too commonat the moment, sure, but it is
(08:30):
going to become more common,especially as companies become
more conscious of the, you know,their budgets, what they're
spending it on.
They're gonna be considering,okay, do I spend that on AI
innovation or do I spend that ongrowing my team?
And we've already seen a selectfew companies make a certain
decision, whether you thinkthat's the right one or not, is
(08:51):
gonna be, you know, up to you.
But we've kind of seen these,you know, conversations and
situations kind of already beginto play out.
So yeah, it's not necessarilyharder, but applicants do have
to think about a lot more whenthey try and apply for a job at
the moment.
Josh Matthews (09:08):
Yeah.
It's, I mean, it used to justbe, oh, you're a tech architect.
That's fine.
You have your pick, here's fiveoffers.
And I remember those days andthey were good.
I made a lot of money.
You know, it was really good.
But now it's it's substantiallydifferent, um, to your point.
Scott Stafford (09:23):
Yeah, a lot more tools, I would say.
It it's it's knowing moreplatforms, more tools.
And it's maybe not as deep ineach one because that's really
not possible because things arechanging so quick.
So you got to be able to digestquicker the different
applications that do differentthings coming out, and then
really be able to lead people.
(09:43):
You're seeing.
Josh Matthews (09:44):
So are you talking, Scott, about like like
cloud, like being able totranslate, like, hey, I don't
know NPC, but I know FinServe,and I know, you know, marketing
cloud, and I know, you know,service cloud.
And how can I translate that toNPC?
Is that what you mean?
Scott Stafford (09:57):
I think that you also want to know where things
are going, but understand whatNVIDIA is offering, understand,
you know, where this whole thingis going.
I I often tell people, hey, therobots are coming out.
It's gonna be here in twoyears.
We're basically doing thatright now.
We're we're building agenticsolutions that within two or
three years will actually be inthe robots.
And it's a great opportunity.
So try and figure out wherewhich each um ecosystem is gonna
(10:22):
be doing.
And Salesforce, you know,they've gone headless.
They want us to, you know, kindof change a little bit more to
get out of the CRM andunderstand all the different
places that we can deploy oursolutions.
So just kind of keep in yourhead understanding what
everything is, you know, whereeverything is going, the
different ecosystems, and thenwhere you can fit in and shine.
Josh Matthews (10:43):
That makes sense.
I'm kind of curious, Sasha, foryou, like if you if you could
just say one thing to the folkswho are listening, who are, you
know, they've heard stories forthe last three years, like, oh,
Salesforce, oh yeah, you know,it's gonna be awesome.
If they came to you and said,hey, I'm like a quarter through
my admin cert and I'm reallyexcited, what would you say to
(11:06):
those?
You take a 24-year-old person,right?
They're all excited, they'redoing this thing, they feel good
because they're on a path.
You don't have to be on theright path to feel good about a
path, by the way, guys, right?
Like you can, and as my dadalways said, no matter how far
down the wrong road, you've goneturned back.
And it's an old Turkish saying,right?
But like, what would you say tothe 24-year-old who's like,
(11:26):
yeah, I'm doing trailhead, lovethe community, yeah, I went to a
dreaming event.
Like, what are their chancesreally?
Sasha Semjonova (11:35):
Yeah, firstly, I think I would make sure that I
didn't dampen their enthusiasmtoo much because at the end of
the day, it's still, you know,incredibly rewarding to be
involved in the community, to beinvolved in Salesforce as an
ecosystem, the wider community.
All of that is still soimportant.
And the community keeps tellingme this as well.
(11:55):
I'm sure uh Scott advocates forthat as well.
But um, I think when it comesto the job market, I think I
would just be like, okay, youknow, please have this
enthusiasm.
It's gonna get you far, butalso be realistic.
Like listen to what yournetwork, the community is
saying, listen to what they'refinding is going great, listen
(12:16):
to what they're struggling with,you know, go on community
forums, go to these events likeyou've been going to, but ask
questions like, okay, you know,how did you experience this?
How long did it take you tofind your job?
You know, where are you seeingpeople hiring at the moment?
I think the the clearer of apicture that this person or
(12:37):
anyone listening can kind ofdevelop of what the market looks
like right now, the betterchance they have of succeeding
because the chance of, you know,the opportunity for success is
going to look different foreverybody.
You know, we can't just go,okay, go into this field and
you'll get a job tomorrow, orget into this field and you'll
be great.
No, it's more of a case ofokay, what's the market doing
(12:59):
and where is my place in it andhow can I get into it?
Josh Matthews (13:02):
I love that.
Yeah.
I kind of like it.
I don't love it.
And I'll tell you why.
That's I think it's a greatperspective because I'm all for
dampening people's spirit ifit's gonna save their life.
Yeah.
And but you're you're right.
I mean, it's like if they'relike someone's gonna make it in
Hollywood, you know what I mean?
(13:23):
It's like, yeah, go to LA, liketake your acting classes, like
you got in a commercial, great,keep going, you know, like maybe
you'll be the next Tom Cruiseor Tom Hanks or or you know,
whoever, um, Meryl Streep, gofor it.
Um, and you never want to killthat, but there's this massive
thing, and it's a problem.
And it's that 22 to 26 yearolds aren't getting jobs in
(13:48):
entry-level positions in techeasily.
It's about nearly 10% harderthis year than it was last year,
and last year wasn't great.
And so what can they for thosefolks?
They have to do somethingdifferent because if you've got
a three-year admin with fivecerts who's good, who has
(14:08):
references, who can't land ajob, and it's not just because
they want you know 90 grand,it's because there's not a job
for them because the agents aretaking over.
I had an admin and I fired himbecause I can go in and run my
stuff through agents now.
I can create a pick list, dothis, find this, get me 500
(14:32):
customers that I need for that,create a marketing campaign,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I don't need them.
I just don't need them.
But if you can find someone whocan like go in there, knows the
stuff so that they don't ruinit, but then can run the agents
to do it.
I mean, do you feel likethere's enough being said,
whether it's on Salesforce banor in your own journalism,
(14:53):
that's sort of like not tryingto poo-poo the whole ecosystem
because it's a great ecosystem,it's continuing to grow.
You know, when we talk aboutfeeling like things are sliding
backwards, we're talking aboutreduced growth.
We're not talking about massivelosses, right?
We're just talking aboutreduced growth.
Like, what's something that youwould say to that same person?
I'm I'm more curious about likewhat's your softer, gentler way
(15:17):
than sounding like me.
Like, what are you doing?
You know, don't do it.
I guess the reason why I wantto hear from Sasha real quick on
this.
Sure, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah like if you weregonna communicate, like, does
any of that ring true for you?
That's the first thing I wantto know.
And two, how would youcommunicate that differently
than me?
Like, what are you doing?
Sasha Semjonova (15:37):
Yeah, um, I'd say yes and no.
And I think this is why, youknow, a big part of what I
advocate for is be realisticabout the market.
I if you go back and read manyof my articles talking about the
job market, we and you know,myself, my fellow journalists
have said, okay, maybe youshould consider a career outside
(15:58):
of Salesforce.
We're not afraid of sayingthis, of course.
Josh Matthews (16:00):
Yeah.
Sasha Semjonova (16:01):
You know, the way that's just the way the
market is.
You might have a higher chanceof success in a adjacent
software.
Like there's no denying that.
But also in the same breath,over the last six months, I've
spent more time speaking toyoung talent in the ecosystem
who ended up getting jobs.
And I'm talking to, you know,uh ones that have come out of
(16:23):
different career programs.
And they said, Oh, I was soscared of what everybody was
saying, and then I ended up witha job.
And again, I think that's wherethe realism comes into it
because it's a case of you'regonna have people that are still
getting jobs.
These jobs are getting filled.
So Salesforce is hiring, it'shiring for a number of different
positions.
Partners are hiring for anumber of different positions,
(16:44):
doesn't mean you'll get one, butI don't necessarily think that
Salesforce, compared to perhapsany other adjacent company, is
more or less difficult to getinto right now.
I think they're all on the sameplaying field almost.
Josh Matthews (17:00):
You're saying the company or the ecosystem?
Sasha Semjonova (17:02):
I'd say both.
unknown (17:03):
Okay.
Sasha Semjonova (17:04):
I'd say both.
Yeah.
I think yeah, the advice I giveis if you are really
determined, you really, reallywant to be in this, you know,
ecosystem, you want to be withSalesforce for whatever reason
you have, go for it.
Just be realistic about whatyou need to do to get there.
Understand it will not be easy.
It's not gonna be easy anymore.
(17:25):
Those days are over, but youcan still do it.
And I think that's what needsto be said as well.
Josh Matthews (17:32):
Yeah, I think that's a that's well put.
And Scott, you were gonna jumpin there.
Go for it, man.
Scott Stafford (17:36):
I think the reason why I loved it is what I
heard from her is get out thereand actually hear.
Go to the events.
What is really magical aboutour ecosystem is there's a lot
of dreaming events.
Not all of the ones have somany opportunities where you can
go there and and find yourniche.
Talk to some people, say, hey,what's working?
Not necessarily there, you'regonna end up in Salesforce.
(17:57):
They might say, Hey, you'rereally good at this.
Hey, go and I have a job kindof um Salesforce adjacent with
Snowflake or something likethat.
We just heard that Snowflakewas killing it with their
earnings, a lot of opportunitythere.
So it is a really greatopportunity to go to cheap
conferences.
I go to quite a few conferencesand uh some of the bigger
companies cost two grand.
(18:18):
So being able to go and get aperspective from people is is
pretty cool.
And our ecosystem does have alot of people that lean in.
They lean in and they give youthe perspective, right?
Um, whether it's good or bad,they, you know, they kind of
tell you, you know, the truth ofthe matter, right?
Where it is.
And it kind of like thispodcast.
So there's a lot of opportunityhere, and and there's still
(18:40):
those that really want to getinvolved and put themselves out
there can get a job in thisecosystem.
Sasha Semjonova (18:46):
And just to quickly kind of add on to that,
if cost is a barrier, considergoing to the user groups as
well.
I'm a regular attender of theBristol Admin User Group.
Um, it's just a really, reallygood space to be able to kind of
connect with the community andtalk very candidly about
experiences and stuff like that.
(19:06):
If you're gonna learn anythinganywhere about the ecosystem,
it's within those spaces.
Josh Matthews (19:12):
That's great.
Really good recommendationsfrom both of you.
Appreciate you both sharingthose perspectives.
Because I can get a little hot,as you can tell.
I'm like, ah, but you know,that age group, that's the age
of my kids, you know.
And if my kid was like, I'mgonna be an admin, I'm like, I
don't know, dude.
No.
I'd probably be like, you cando whatever you want, and and
I'm always supportive of them.
(19:33):
But if you're not, if you'renot physically required to be
there, right?
A career, one's going into youknow anesthesiology uh
assistance, that type of thing,or physical therapy, that kind
of thing.
Oh, you need a person, uh, likea human there.
The other one uh is is uhmaking clay, you know, doing
(19:54):
clay, and another one's a gonnabe pilot.
Like they're they're all doingthese things where you
physically have to be there,which is a safe play for 15
years down the road.
So when they're 35, 38 yearsold, it's a good long play.
But if you're not gonna dothat, that's okay.
But wrapping your arms aroundan admin cert before wrapping
(20:14):
your arms around Claude, youknow, like serious stuff.
I don't mean like, you know,what's the best movie I should
go to?
Like, I'm not talking treatingit like Google.
I'm I'm seeing like reallyheavy stuff, like investing in
it and getting amazing at it andlearning how to build agents
outside of Agent Force.
Right, you know.
I mean, I've got I've gotagent, I've got Agent Force, but
(20:37):
it's not working great,honestly.
Like, like, like the juiceisn't worth the squeeze for me
right now on it, you know, andwe're seeing that a lot.
That's not a new story.
Yeah, I'm just one person outof thousands, right?
But juice isn't worth thesqueeze for me.
So, but I can do that stuff onmy own.
I can just go blah, blah, blah,blah, blah perplexity and build
(20:58):
this, go make that agent.
And I can do that stuff veryquickly and get the same juice
for a lot less squeeze.
And so anyone who's going outthere, I would just say augment
it, right?
If you're gonna go out there,you're gonna, you're if you're
job hunting right now and you'renot spending 10, 15, and you're
it's been six weeks sinceyou've had a great interview and
(21:18):
you're spending all your timeon trying to get this next cert,
thinking that's gonna get youpast your next interview, you've
got a uh you've got some uh uhchallenges with your
prioritization.
Because I'm assuming thatSasha, these these young folks
that that are coming up to youand saying, like, hey, I did it
and I like cranked and I gotthat job, weren't they nice?
Weren't they engaging people?
(21:39):
Weren't they friendly?
I mean, they came up to you.
That's a quality already.
Now you've got another, youknow, 40 to 60 percent of people
who would never do that intheir life.
They would never come up to youor me or Scott or anybody else.
And so we're talking about thepeople who are actually getting
these jobs are born with certainqualities and then work hard to
improve it.
(21:59):
They're not born with thosequalities, they have to work
really hard to overcome it.
And it often means that they'reactually not in the stream of
work that they probably shoulddo where they're going to feel
comfortable, where they're goingto feel natural.
I'm not talking about likeovercoming fears because that's
something different than howyou're wired to process
information in your brain or howyou're wired socially.
(22:22):
Do you see what I mean?
And so if you're not aparticularly social person, uh,
you know, work in the room at aconference is gonna be hard.
Doesn't mean you can't do it.
Vanessa and I have lots ofepisodes all about that from old
podcasts.
But just I really think that ifpeople paused, take some of
(22:45):
these profile uh tests, youknow, whether it's old school
MBTI test or disk or or um, Imean, God, there's like a
hundred of them, right?
Take three or four or five,feed all that into some AI.
Talk to the AI that you'realready working with that knows
you really well, and say, I knowyou know a lot about me, but
what don't you know about methat would help build a better
(23:06):
profile or understanding of me?
This isn't giving away thestore, guys.
This is getting better output,getting better results.
And just like, here's my MBTI,here's my disk, here's my this,
here's my that, you know me.
What else do you need to know?
Answer all those questions andbe like, on a scale of 10,
five's average.
How great is entering into aSalesforce admin role and
(23:27):
putting all my eggs into thatbasket right now?
Doesn't mean it's accurate, butto your point, Sasha, it's more
information.
Sasha Semjonova (23:36):
Absolutely.
Josh Matthews (23:37):
So let's stay.
Okay, I'm done ranting.
That's my little rant.
Um I'm I'm kind of interestedin um people having a good
understanding of what they'reseeing in the market.
And I saw a post from um JordanNelson.
If you don't know Jordan Nelsonright now, like I'd be shocked.
(23:57):
He's got 100,000 followers onLinkedIn.
He's a heck of a nice guy.
And he had a he had a neatpost.
It was so simple.
He's so good at LinkedIn, man.
This guy's LinkedIn game islike as good as it comes.
He's really fantastic.
And he had a post of ShaquilleO'Neal with um, oh God, I uh
Simone Biles.
Okay.
(24:17):
So one of the tallest athletesin the world and and possibly
the shortest athlete in theworld, right?
Both uh, both gold standards intheir work.
And she's this tiny littlething, and he's this huge thing.
And Jordan said, um, uh, wheredid it go?
I've got it in here somewhere.
Yeah, he said, I mean, am I theonly one who sees this?
(24:41):
And it had Shaq as Salesforcejob description and the salary,
Simone Biles, right?
And a lot of people commentedon this.
I think there's like 400 likes.
That's pretty big for LinkedIn,right?
So it really caught fire, and Ijust thought, yeah, that, but
that's when has that not beenthe case?
(25:02):
Like, that's not new.
And there's this kind of hiddencurrent of hiring.
So you're only seeing the jobsthat are not getting filled,
right?
Yeah.
So there's a real skew of like,yeah, it's shocking that you
keep seeing these jobs wherethey want the world and only
want to pay a bag of peanuts andthey're not getting filled.
(25:22):
You're in journalism, you'retalking to these people.
How much is it the case thatpeople are just not seeing all
the information?
Sasha Semjonova (25:30):
Hmm.
Josh Matthews (25:31):
Good point.
Sasha Semjonova (25:32):
I think that's a massive part of the market.
I think, yeah, the jobs uh welike to kind of pull out
sometimes and be like, okay,it's asking this, this, and
this.
You've got to have this manyyears of experience.
They sometimes ask for certs,not always, but they often
include quite a big amount ifthey're looking for a certain
amount of certs.
(25:52):
And then you're looking at thesalary.
And I'm obviously not based inthe US, but I see the salaries
and I'm like, okay, I knowthat's not a good salary.
I know what a good looks like,and that isn't one.
Um, but then again, kind of inthe same breath, there are
evidently people employed withinthe Salesforce ecosystem that
are happy where they are.
You just don't necessarily seethem talk about it.
(26:13):
But I think it is important,you know, that time is spent
looking at those jobs that, youknow, the salaries are
definitely not what they used tobe because that is a massive
thing that puts people offentering the market, staying in
the market.
We're seeing satisfactionacross the ecosystem lower.
Um, what when it comes to beingin the community, when it comes
(26:35):
to the work they do, thecompensation they get for their
work.
We do a salary survey everyyear and we uh kind of dissect
those results and kind of seehow the community is feeling
about their roles and howthey're compensated.
And yeah, it's not a prettylineup, unfortunately.
But as you said, it's not new.
I think it's something that weshould keep on looking at
(26:58):
because I don't personally thinkit's gonna change anytime soon.
And I think that anybodyentering or deciding whether
they want to stay in theecosystem should be very kind of
aware of that discrepancybetween the two.
Josh Matthews (27:11):
Yeah, good points, Sasha.
And I'll say this it's just amessage to the um head
headhunters, talent acquisitionteams, hiring managers, they're
the ones, someone's responsiblefor this output, right?
Someone wrote that jobdescription.
A lot of times, AI wrote it forthem.
(27:34):
And they suck at prompting.
And so it came out with a superunrealistic thing.
All right.
So don't do that, right?
Do research.
If you're gonna write a jobdescription from scratch and
you've never written really goodjob descriptions that know how
to attract the right kind ofcandidates for you, just pause,
do a little research, get goodat it.
(27:55):
You can get better at it inabout an hour.
Like it doesn't take much.
You can write a really goodprompt in about 15 minutes of
concerted, thoughtful, you know,programmatic thinking, right?
About what the output is.
And you don't have to just copyand paste and post, right?
I think the biggest fault thatthat I see, by the way, these
(28:16):
aren't companies that have neverhired Salesforce people before.
These are companies that areusually replacing someone they
lost.
And when we we talk about this,like you go into an
organization, and if you'rethere five years and you're
showing incremental, increasedcapabilities, responsibility,
(28:36):
you know, um, you're adapting.
Well, every time you're takingon something new, getting better
at something, you're just kindof screwing that unicorn horn
onto your forehead a little bitharder and a little bit tighter.
And then when you're like, Fthis, J Matt out, bye-bye, bye,
Felicia.
I'm taking off, and you'regone.
(28:57):
And you leave these people in alarch and they're like gasping
for air because you took thewind out of them, you kicked
them in the solar plexus, andnow they need to replace all of
you.
And it's gonna take two people.
It's gonna take two people.
I was talking to a colleague ofmine just yesterday, and he was
describing the job description,and it's no different than what
(29:18):
Jordan was highlighting.
I mean, that's a real thing,you know.
People are out there, and youknow, I think it was Felicia who
told told me once.
Um, she's like, that's not ajob, that's a team.
Right?
Like, that's a team.
So you want to hire a team,right?
(29:40):
And if these hiring managers,this little bit's for them, if
they can be thinking about like,okay, what's the core that if
someone came in for threemonths, crushed it, put
everything together, who wouldyou need then after that three
months?
Right.
Because you can get a couplecontractors in who kick ass who
don't want to work for you.
You can't afford them.
It's not a fit, but they'llcome in and set you up right,
(30:03):
right?
And then get the real personin, not the real person, but get
the person, the stable personin to just hunker down and knock
out the work with a littlearchitect check-in, you know,
uh, for one day every quarter,something like that, or every
month.
So I think that's a way aroundit.
Um, what's your advice, Scottand Sasha, for folks who are
(30:27):
seeing these unicorn postingsand then not applying, even
though maybe they should.
What would you say to them?
Scott Stafford (30:33):
Yeah, I'll I'll take that first.
I think there's a lot of um jobpostings that are, you know,
that they're overstated whatthey're really looking for.
And I definitely would, youknow, apply, but then also make
sure you reach out as a human,right?
DM, get in there, find everyway you can to connect with
somebody at the company so thatyou shine.
(30:54):
And then also just talkingabout the skill set.
I have 27 certifications.
I wish if I had to do it overagain that I would have had a
little bit more diversification.
I wish I had an NVIDIAcertification and I'm working on
it now, and then also an AWS,just giving me a little bit more
of a, you know, a broad profilefor people, you know, and it
(31:15):
also would help me just tounderstand, you know, all the
different ecosystems, how itfits together.
But definitely, I I've neverbeen someone that looks at
someone's, you know, a uh jobdescription and say, hey, that's
not for me.
I usually think, uh, it'salways overexaggerated.
And especially when I writeone, I'm like, look at this job
description, right?
There's nobody that couldactually fill this, right?
(31:36):
So they're always, you know,stating their dream list.
And if you get in there andshow them that you really want
it, right, and and that you canadapt and do the job, and you're
a real human, and and thatreally makes a big difference, I
think, right now, that you're ahuman, you want it, and you can
offer those soft skills incomplementing what they're also
looking for in the jobdescription.
Josh Matthews (31:56):
Yeah, good points.
Sasha?
Sasha Semjonova (31:58):
Yeah, no, I would say I definitely agree
with that.
Um, a lot of the responses thatcome from job advocates now, a
lot of them are going to be botsor AI in some form.
So if you can stand out as ahuman, you're already being that
percentage of people that haveapplied.
But also kind of as a youngperson in the kind of tech
market, I think my kind of thingI like to say to people is, you
(32:22):
know, I'm sorry, I know itsucks, but it's what you kind of
have to do.
If you don't do that, you know,your chances of getting a job
is just so much lower.
I think it it was even a fewyears ago, it was very
different.
It was if you had all thenecessary parts of a job
description, you could go aheadand apply.
Even if you didn't have some ofthem, if you were like, okay,
(32:43):
you could just lay out yourresume well enough or you wrote
a good cover letter, that wouldbe enough.
I think you definitely need todo a lot more now.
And I think I understand thatfrustration.
I understand it's tricky whenthe, you know, the economy is in
the shape that it is, when jobsare harder than ever to find.
But it's a case of going backto what we were talking about
(33:04):
earlier, the how do I stand out?
And as Scott said, the kind ofreaching out is a really, really
good way to do that.
Don't feel afraid of these joblistings.
Um, you won't know if you don'tapply.
If you really look at it andI'm like, no, okay, this is not
me at all.
I don't match any of thecriteria.
Don't waste your own time.
(33:24):
Like, just there's there's noneed to do that.
But if you're looking at it andyou go, okay, maybe this could
be me, just give it a go.
Give it a go.
Josh Matthews (33:32):
Yeah, just give it a go.
Just give it a go.
And and real I think it'sreally good for people to focus,
you know, when there's look,there's thousands of jobs out
there.
I don't know what there are,30,000, 40,000 job postings
right now.
Okay, cut those in half becausea bunch of them are just gonna
be agency stuff.
Cut those in half because a lotof them are doubled up.
You've got five agencies allworking on the same job.
Okay.
You there's still thousands ofjobs that, and at least hundreds
(33:56):
that you'd be qualified for formost people who've spent at
least 12 to 24 months in theecosystem out there.
The question is, how are yougonna stand out?
So do that.
There are other episodes thattalk all about that.
So go check that out.
You can check out the JoshForce YouTube channel.
You can check out tons of stuffon Salesforce Ben.
Um, there's so much informationabout how to improve your
(34:16):
chances in the job market.
But what we're trying to stickwith today is just improving
your understanding of what'sgoing on in the job market.
And and let's keep it real fora minute.
Okay, so unemployment right nowis hovering around 4.3, 4.3,
something like that in theUnited States.
That's not bad, guys.
Like that's not terrible.
4.0 is kind of a nice balancedaverage mix.
(34:37):
So it's not really horrible,but there's another um there's
another uh metric that's used.
I think they call it U6 or U3,something like that.
I'm I'm moderately unfamiliarwith it.
But when you look at theweather, so if I looked at the
weather here in Jupiter,Florida, and it might say 85
(34:59):
degrees feels like 98.
Okay.
So the feels like 98.
That's like your wind chillfactor, that's like your
mugginess factor for like whatdoes it actually feel like?
And it feels like it's eight ornine percent unemployment.
That's what it feels like.
Okay, it's not, but that's whatit feels like.
And we actually are closer tothat eight, nine percent in
(35:24):
technology because two factors.
One, people working part-time,so they're employed, but they're
not getting paid what theyneed.
They can't support themselves,they can't support their family.
Okay.
The other, the other factor ispeople who just stopped, they
gave up, they moved back home,they're playing video games,
they're not working, they quitwithout even bothering.
(35:45):
Okay.
So when you take that intoconsideration, now you're
looking at eight, eight and ahalf percent of of people, and
that skewed that is a little bithigher than what feels healthy,
right?
So the trick is when thesefolks don't uh aren't working or
they've quit working, a lot ofthem didn't quit being on
(36:07):
socials, and socials lovenegative, they love it, they
love it.
I mean, it's just I'm just II've said this a couple months
ago.
Don't get sucked into it, guys.
Don't get sucked into thenegativity.
Oh, corporate this, corporatethat.
I'm gonna tell you a story,quick story.
I interviewed a woman, neatlady, experienced, skilled,
(36:29):
decent work history, not a lotof flip-flopping, right?
Um, but she said somethingreally interesting.
And I had to ask her to go alittle bit more deeper.
And what she said is, you know,I want to work somewhere where
I can be my authentic self.
Like, what the fuck is that?
(36:50):
Okay, like I don't know whatthat is.
Like you're authentic or you'renot.
You're showing up as you oryou're not.
You know what I mean?
Like, I I'm different talkingto a client than I am on this
show.
I'm different when I talk toCasey, I'm different when I talk
to one of the kids, you know,or the checkout person at the
store, right?
(37:11):
Am I being inauthentic?
So I didn't really understandit.
So I I needed to push.
And it what what it turned outis it sounds like she's quite
creative and very communityorganized, uh uh and interested
in the community and all thatstuff's great.
But she also was communicatingsome information, like it
sounded like it almost soundedlike toxic work environments
(37:35):
were sort of very common, verynormal, and you need to be like
guards up to protect yourselfagainst that.
Okay.
And then I asked, I said, Well,has it happened to you?
She's like, Oh, no, no, not me.
I was like, really?
Then, like, why are you leadingwith that?
And she's like, Yeah, I don'tknow.
I said, You go to conferences,you go, you talk to a lot of
(37:56):
people, you're just likesocially involved.
She's like, Yeah.
I'm like, so I'm a big fan ofthese conferences, I'm a big fan
of Dream and Events, I'm a bigfan of Ohana Slack, I'm a big
fan of people who arelike-minded or differently
minded, getting together, havingdiscussions.
What I'm not a fan of are abunch of sour puss people with
big ideas, thinking that um, youknow, because they've had three
(38:21):
toxic bosses in a row, and bythe way, that means they're the
toxic person.
But because they have threetoxic bosses and because it's
very headline carryable, meaningit's very um that news can
travel fast in social media, itcan catch fire, threads can
explode, oh yeah, me too.
Oh yeah, F that, right?
Guys, again, like stay away,stay away from the sewer rats.
(38:46):
Okay.
And I when you when you go tothese conferences and you talk
to these people, or you go toeven a session where they're
talking about, you know, hostilework environments and this kind
of stuff.
I just want you to askyourself, like, is this person
kind of a kind of a jerk off?
You know, who you're listeningto?
That doesn't mean if they saythat they're a jerk off.
(39:06):
I'm not saying that they are.
I'm just saying you got to askyourself, like, will you hire
this person?
Does this person seem like it'snot jerk off, a pain in the
ass?
Is this person a pain in theass for an employer to work
with?
Because if you're a pain in theass, guys, nobody wants to hire
you.
And if if you're a pain in theass and you have a job, no one's
gonna want to keep you.
(39:27):
And as soon as they can say,uh, yeah, we're scaling down AI,
like, please go.
Um, I just I guess this is kindof my very because I haven't
been on this show for like twomonths, and I've seen it so many
times when I'm talking tocandidates that I can't work
with that.
Like you're good, but you talklike that, I can't place you.
(39:48):
I can't place you.
I'm focused on the top 10%.
That's not top 10% stuff.
And Sasha's made some reallyexcellent points about how to
stand out.
Well, that's a way to standout, but you'd be standing out
for all the wrong reasons.
You know, you've really got tokeep your context relevant,
which is I'm not working, I needa job, what am I willing to do?
(40:10):
Just about anything, anythingthat's legal, anything that's
not amoral.
Let me do that, right?
Will I eat crow?
Yeah.
Have I had to bite my tonguethrough my you know, 40 years of
work, 35 years of work?
Yeah, tons.
Still didn't bite it enough.
(40:30):
So, you know, what's the stateof the AI mark uh of the world
right now, the Salesforcemarket, what's going on with AI
in the market right now?
Humans win, right?
I mean, Scott and Sasha, youguys, you guys are a couple of
the you guys speak out on thisstuff all the time.
(40:51):
Your humanity will beat AI aslong as you know AI.
Scott Stafford (40:55):
Yeah.
Josh Matthews (40:56):
Your humanity, yeah, your humanity is gonna
beat out the other 999applicants, right?
But that doesn't just meanbecause you're a human, you have
to be a nice person.
You have to be transparent, youhave to be honest, you have to
have done some research.
I talked to another gal, shewas referred by a client of
mine.
Um, hey, I want you to checkout this person.
(41:18):
I'm gonna talk to her.
I loved her.
I thought she was fantastic.
She was really great.
She had done nothing in twoyears to invest in herself.
And I don't recommend, I didn'trecommend hiring her.
Like she could just spent aweek, just a week, a couple
nights.
Just like, what are theseterms?
What are those terms?
What's changed?
Just read an article, watch oneepisode of anything, you know.
(41:39):
She hadn't invested in anythingto prepare for the conversation
I had with her or to actuallyexit where she is and get
established in a new place.
I don't invest in people thatdon't invest in themselves.
And so you've got to invest inyourself.
And it's probably not going andgetting that extra
certification or even that CSMor any certification at all.
(42:01):
It's like, really, like, whatcan I do as a human to stand out
and be awesome?
Like be freaking the obviouschoice for when I'm going into
this job.
State of the market, 2026 isyour humanity matters, but boy,
you've got to rein it in and geta hold of yourself and like be
a good person and a nice personand do all the right things that
(42:23):
lead up to it.
And I want to I want to balancethat message, and then we're
gonna go and I've got morequestions for Sasha.
I want to balance that withthis, and it's real simple.
It's it's hard to staymotivated when you're feeling
demoralized, right?
(42:44):
When you're applying over andover again, and your spouse or
your partner, boyfriend orgirlfriend is like, how'd it go
today?
And you're like, not great.
And you're wondering whathappens when your card is maxed
out and your bank account is inthe negative, and now you're
writing bad checks.
And how you sit there and youlook at your kids and they go,
(43:05):
Did you get a job today, dad?
And you go, I'm working on it,kiddo.
Don't worry, like that's hard.
That's gonna take a big pieceout of you.
And let's face it, it'sheartbreaking.
I know I talk loud and I talklike cut it out and don't do
that shit, and don't be a fool,but that's on purpose.
I want you guys to know that'son purpose because it's fucking
(43:27):
wake up time to like get out ofyour own freaking way.
If you're failing right now toget a job, I promise you, it's
not the market.
4%, it's not the market.
It's decisions that you'vemade.
Just start making better onesright now and focus on the
things that you can do, that youcan control.
Where your effort is.
Does that make sense?
(43:48):
Does it make sense to you two?
Sasha Semjonova (43:51):
I'd say so.
Josh Matthews (43:52):
Just yeah, but but it's okay to feel hurt.
So, but you gotta, you know, Ithink these community groups are
great.
For giving you some lift.
You know, when I go, people arelike, oh, I see them.
It's like, you can do this.
There's so much love in theroom.
Go where you can find somelove.
Scott Stafford (44:09):
It'll buoy you.
All right.
A couple of times.
I think you gotta digest thattoo.
Negativity is not gonna get youa job.
That's just the I mean, yougotta get that in your head.
Be positive about what you'redoing.
Be honest with what you'redoing, right?
And then go make it happen.
Period.
Josh Matthews (44:26):
That's yeah.
There's a reason why they'relike, don't bitch about your
boss at a new company, right?
Because they're just gonnathink, are you gonna bitch about
me?
You know?
There's a real reason for that.
If you need to I I did that.
I left a job and then I got it,I got an interview, and oh my
god, I was just like the worstinterview.
All I did was complain abouthow all this stuff happened and
(44:47):
none of it was my fault.
I think I was like 30something, or I don't even
remember.
Like it was stupid.
I was terrible interview.
I wouldn't have hired me.
Um, not at all.
All right, Sasha.
I want to know um, I want toknow what you think is the next
thing.
Like I'm not asking for a fullprediction of like what's gonna
(45:13):
happen in 27 and 28.
That's okay.
But if there's a thing in theecosystem, whether it's
headless, you know, rememberwhen it was like remote is like
the big thing.
Like, yeah, what are youcatching a whiff of that maybe
there's not enough data toactually report on yet?
But you're spite you've gotspidey senses, I can tell.
Sasha Semjonova (45:35):
I do.
Josh Matthews (45:36):
Your in your intuition is like starting to
pull all these threads in, andyou're like, this is gonna be a
story, July, September.
Like what can you give us anidea?
What is that gut telling youright now?
Sasha Semjonova (45:51):
Yeah, for sure.
I think, and I'll kind of gointo a little bit about how it's
gonna potentially impactprofessionals after, but I
think, you know, Salesforce hasalready been hinting it with
Headless with everything they'redoing with Slack.
I think it's very evident thatSalesforce is focusing on
(46:11):
completely retransforming itsUI, right?
The way people interact withSalesforce is already starting
to become different.
But I think the amount ofchange that is going to happen
within the next two months,probably around Dreamforce time
as well, when they decide toannounce something big, you
know, we've already got ParkerHarris saying, why ever log into
(46:32):
Salesforce again?
And we've got Salesforce, youknow, releasing Slackbot and
Agent Force coworker that kindof connect all these things that
they've been working on since2024, all into one place, making
the UI simple.
I imagine they've heard theconversation that the
community's been saying for along time of Salesforce is too
complex, you're releasing toomany products, and we're getting
(46:55):
confused.
The getting confused part, Ithink Salesforce still has a
problem with that.
That's a conversation foranother day.
Um, but I think kind ofblending that and transforming
the UI so Salesforce is notentirely a different product,
but you almost work with itdifferently, that's gonna be the
next big thing, I think.
And for professionals, that'sgonna mean kind of having a
(47:18):
really particular knowledge ofthe platform and what influences
it.
You've got Claude in Salesforcenow, right?
You've got Anthropic, you'vegot all these different kinds of
agent connections.
They're bringing out more.
It's connections this week.
They've released four newagents for marketers, right?
I feel like there's just somuch coming out now.
And if you're not keeping ontop of that, you're not kind of
(47:42):
at least attempting to makesense of what's going on, the
direction that they're headingin, the way they've made things
headless.
And I don't think head headlessis just a starting point.
It's probably gonna acceleratefrom this point onwards.
If you're not kind of aware ofthe direction that Salesforce is
heading in, I think you're justgonna really struggle with the
platform because you, yes, ofcourse, you're gonna have
(48:03):
customers that are still workingwith Classic, for example, that
have really small orgs andstuff like that, but you'll also
be coming across thesebusinesses and these companies
that are like, okay, what's thenext thing that I can get from
Salesforce?
And if you're if you're notaware of what that is, then I
think you're really gonnastruggle.
Josh Matthews (48:22):
Excellent, excellent insight.
What does that mean for theISVs out there?
Sasha Semjonova (48:27):
I think it means a bunch of different
things.
I think Salesforce has begun todefinitely incentivize kind of
agent work for ISVs.
Um, they overhauled theirpartner program, they put in a
bunch of new things that arelike, okay, if you focus on
making um solutions orientatedaround agent force, around AI,
(48:47):
we'll give you these incentives,you know.
You'll put you're peddling ourmission almost.
But I also think ISVs now,because obviously ISVs are
separate to Salesforce, theyneed to really be trying to look
at, okay, what do my customersspecifically want from AI?
You know, like do they wantthese big, flashy integrations?
(49:09):
Do they want these a thousandcapabilities, or do they want
something smaller that can kindof just pull everything in their
org together, make things moreefficient?
I think now is the time forreally kind of understanding
your customers, understandingyour audience.
They're gonna be the onesbuying from you, they're the
ones gonna be, you know, talkingor choosing your solution,
(49:31):
understand them.
Now is the time to do it.
Josh Matthews (49:34):
Excellent insight, Sasha.
This has been a lovelyconversation.
It's been wonderful to have youon board.
Um, Scott, can you help usunderstand what conferences are
coming up?
What should be what shouldpeople be paying attention to?
I know you mentioned DreamForce.
We're all gonna be there,right?
Yes.
Okay, what else is going on?
Scott Stafford (49:54):
Yeah, all of us are gonna be there.
I I'm excited.
I'm gonna be going out to MileHigh.
Uh, that's a big conference.
It's gonna be out in um inColorado, and that's at the end
of August.
I believe they're still gonnabe having the one out in SoCal.
It's also in August.
Unfortunately, I think we heardthat um Force Landia got
canceled, right?
And and then there's alsoDreaming in Color.
(50:17):
I'm not actually sure exactlythe date, but that is That's in,
I think it's in July in Atlantathis year.
Josh Matthews (50:23):
Yeah.
Scott Stafford (50:23):
It's yeah, it is an incredible conference.
So uh lots of good peoplethere, and and it could help you
to get motivated, but also leanin and ask people for some
honest, you know, opinion.
Hey, what do you think I shouldfocus on?
Because I've been giving a lotdifferent, you know, perspective
for people that are doing umlike the admins are.
I'm saying, yeah, that's a goodplace.
(50:44):
You're almost done, but youprobably want to lean in a
little bit more to AI afterthis.
So, you know, have those deep,authentic conversations, you
know, be honest and just kind oflike what Sasha was saying.
Don't just listen to everythingthat Salesforce is saying.
They have their own agenda.
If you're an ISB, serve yourcustomers, right?
Find out what they want, right?
(51:05):
And have those conversationsand then build products for
them.
Josh Matthews (51:09):
Terrific.
And Sasha, you're gonna be atDreamforce.
Any other conferences orphysical appearances that you'll
be making?
Sasha Semjonova (51:16):
Yeah, I um I'll be at Dream Force.
I will also be at SF Ben Con,which is Salesforce Ben's uh
very first conference.
That's later in the year.
I don't have the month off thetop of my head, but I really in
London?
Uh yeah, it is gonna be inLondon.
The details are on theSalesforce Ben website.
Josh Matthews (51:35):
Fantastic.
Scott Stafford (51:35):
I have our good friend Gabby is working on that,
and she is really excited.
She was on your show, Josh, andshe says it's gonna be one
incredible conference.
Josh Matthews (51:45):
So exciting.
So exciting.
Sasha, you are welcome backanytime.
I thought your responses wereinsightful, um, like broad.
You're your like yourunderstanding of the ecosystem.
I mean, it's so different fromours, right?
Because you're looking at it sobroadly in a full-time
capacity.
(52:06):
Um, how can people follow you,stay on top of your article
releases, things like that?
Sasha Semjonova (52:13):
LinkedIn is definitely the place.
Yeah, I'm most active on theretalking about anything and
everything, especially if it'scontroversial.
If it's controversial, I'llhave my name on it.
So, yeah, you can definitelyfind me on LinkedIn.
Josh Matthews (52:25):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you, everybody.
We'll be back in two or threeweeks.
I'm not sure exactly when, butwe'll be back for another
episode uh sometime in June.
It's been a pleasure having youguys, and uh, we'll be back.
Bye for now.
Bye, everybody.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to the hiring edge.
We have with us co-host ScottStafford and our very special
guest, Sasha Semyonova.
Sasha, you guys know her.
You've read her writing, andyou might not even have known it
because she is one of theforemost authors, tech
journalists for Salesforce Ben.
And today is her very firsttime on a podcast.
(00:24):
We're really excited to haveyou here today.
I don't think there's probablyanyone in the audience who isn't
influenced in some way, shape,or form by the output that
occurs on the platformSalesforce Ben.
Ben McCarthy's done an amazingjob growing from what was a
simple blog into the foremostauthority on all things
(00:47):
Salesforce journalistically.
And you're a big part of that.
So today's episode isspecifically to talk about what
the heck is going on in the jobmarket.
Now we do this about once aquarter, don't we?
And sometimes there are changesand sometimes not a lot.
I don't know that we've had amassive amount of changes since
(01:10):
our last episode around January,uh, early February, around uh
that time.
But we also weren't in themiddle of the hiring season
either, and that's what we're inright now.
So I think that there's achange.
I think that there's been AIacceleration, and we're gonna
talk about it right now.
So maybe you can, Sasha, forus, tell us what's it really
(01:33):
like to be a tech journalistfocused on Salesforce?
Sasha Semjonova (01:37):
Um, busy, definitely busy.
I feel like there is not asingle quiet day.
Um, I've been doing this forjust under four years.
And uh yeah, it just feels likealmost every quarter, sometimes
every month, there's somethingkind of new that's happening
within the ecosystem, a trendthat we're kind of picking up
(01:57):
on.
Um, and to be honest, over thelast few years, reporting on the
job market has at times felt alittle bit depressing just
because of where the Salesforcejob market and the tech, you
know, the wider tech job markettoo has been and the changes
that it's been navigating, likeum the fallout from COVID over
hiring, obviously the emergenceof AI and layoffs and all kinds
(02:21):
of things like that.
But I would say in the lastmaybe six months, things have
seen a slight, ever so slightkind of turn up because we are
noticing that hiring across theboard is up marginally in the
Salesforce ecosystem.
Again, nothing that anybodyshould be like, oh my gosh, you
know, let's change strategiescompletely.
(02:42):
But we are seeing that kind ofuptick ever so slightly across
the board, which is after thenews we've been seeing over the
last few years, very, verypromising.
Josh Matthews (02:51):
Yeah, right.
I mean, flat was the new up sixmonths ago.
Yeah.
And just stopping the bleedingmattered.
And now I feel like we're infor, I don't even want to say
like a long, slow heel becauseit's still tech, which means
it's still volatile, you know,but it's certainly better than
(03:12):
before.
I think 10K advisors reportedum early last, you know, late
summer, early autumn when theycame out with their report,
about an 8% uptick in hiring,but that's against the backdrop
of about a 35% drop in hiring.
And so while we've made up alittle bit of ground, you know,
we haven't made up all theground.
(03:33):
And I don't think, and I'llI've said this in most episodes,
yeah, that heyday that we saw,that post-COVID boom, that's
unlikely to return, you know, atleast for 15 years.
I kind of appreciate that.
I just think it's unlikely.
Scott Stafford (03:48):
I kind of appreciate where we are, where
Salesforce is actually seeingwhat's happening.
And they recently uh dedicatedto hiring some new call grads.
So that was kind of excited, athousand new jobs.
So I think it's good thatthey're paying attention and and
at least, you know, doing whatthey can.
So it's good news, right?
I mean, we have a littleuptick, things are looking
(04:08):
better.
Let's get this actuallypositive, you know, as as much
as we can for people.
Get that mindset, you know,there's opportunity out there.
Josh Matthews (04:17):
Well, the and and there is.
So let's talk about that.
When you're what are you seeingfrom your position as far as
where is the actual opportunity?
Because it's not what it was 18months ago, right?
And for those who are maybejust tuning in the first time,
or this is the first time thatthey're like, I really want to
learn more about what'shappening in the ecosystem.
(04:38):
The quick math on what used tobe is that um you could get a
certification, go get a job for60, 65 grand in the US, um, be
making 100K within two or threeyears or more as an admin, jump
on trailheads, get more certs,get more money, and uh the world
was your oyster.
That changed.
(04:59):
It's not the case anymore.
So I'd like to hear from you,Sasha.
What is it that you're seeingspecifically?
Sasha Semjonova (05:05):
Yeah, I think there's um, I think
professionals across the boardneed to be kind of very aware
that demand, you know, still uhis still quite different to the
supply.
The supply outweighs the demandquite a lot.
I think it's something like umuh 330% or something like that,
(05:26):
which is not a great number.
Um, but the main thing is thatwe're noticing is that
especially as hiring has begunto pick up, is the fact that
these kind of what I callspecialized specialists are
needed more than ever.
So it's almost like sayinggoodbye to your traditional
admin, your traditionaldeveloper, maybe even your
(05:46):
traditional architect, becauseemployers are looking for sales
for specialists who can wear asmany hats as possible, who can
um take on, you know,architectural skills, business
analyst skills, AI skills,perhaps most importantly.
And they're the professionalsthat are being sought after.
I think, you know, we've beensaying for a long time that the
(06:07):
market is different now andthings are different.
They will not go back to theway they were before.
I think people are beginning tounderstand that.
I think what the understandingneeds to be now is okay, how do
I change my skill set?
Change, you know, what I'mlearning on, working on, so I
can almost seem more employablebecause unfortunately it is an
(06:29):
employer's market at the moment.
It is not an employees' market.
And I think focusing on thoseskills that are going to really
make you stand out, becausestanding out is harder than it's
ever been before, is gonna bethe most important thing for
sure.
Josh Matthews (06:43):
That makes an awful lot of sense.
And you're you're not wrong.
I mean, the the idea ofstanding out, and we've talked
about this before, I keep sayingthat, but when you can go pay
500 bucks to get your resumepounded to 500 different job
posts every single day of theweek for like three months, uh,
(07:04):
people are doing it, and youfire off your AI resume using AI
to a bunch of jobs, and guesswhat?
It works for a small handful ofpeople, right up until they
talk to you and get to know youand realize you're not even
close to a freaking fit, right?
There's still a human elementin here.
So there's there's upskillingso that you're relevant, and
(07:28):
then there's conveying and beingable to communicate that you
have the qualities that they'relooking for.
And what is the experience likefor candidates today that's
different than maybe it was sixmonths ago or nine months ago or
even 12 months ago?
Do you have a sense of thatthrough your work?
Sasha Semjonova (07:46):
Yeah, I would say so.
And that's a really interestingquestion.
I think the job market at themoment is perhaps not the
hardest it's ever been, butapplicants have the most kind of
components and situations thatthey have to face in order to
get a job and to remainsuccessful in their market.
(08:07):
They're up against, you know,ghost jobs, they're up against
uh layoffs, they're up againstum saturation in the market.
That's not just Salesforce,that's across tech.
They're up against, okay, um,you know, I've implemented this
AI agent that can do the jobinstead of this person I was
gonna hire.
That situation isn't too commonat the moment, sure, but it is
(08:30):
going to become more common,especially as companies become
more conscious of the, you know,their budgets, what they're
spending it on.
They're gonna be considering,okay, do I spend that on AI
innovation or do I spend that ongrowing my team?
And we've already seen a selectfew companies make a certain
decision, whether you thinkthat's the right one or not, is
(08:51):
gonna be, you know, up to you.
But we've kind of seen these,you know, conversations and
situations kind of already beginto play out.
So yeah, it's not necessarilyharder, but applicants do have
to think about a lot more whenthey try and apply for a job at
the moment.
Josh Matthews (09:08):
Yeah.
It's, I mean, it used to justbe, oh, you're a tech architect.
That's fine.
You have your pick, here's fiveoffers.
And I remember those days andthey were good.
I made a lot of money.
You know, it was really good.
But now it's it's substantiallydifferent, um, to your point.
Scott Stafford (09:23):
Yeah, a lot more tools, I would say.
It it's it's knowing moreplatforms, more tools.
And it's maybe not as deep ineach one because that's really
not possible because things arechanging so quick.
So you got to be able to digestquicker the different
applications that do differentthings coming out, and then
really be able to lead people.
(09:43):
You're seeing.
Josh Matthews (09:44):
So are you talking, Scott, about like like
cloud, like being able totranslate, like, hey, I don't
know NPC, but I know FinServe,and I know, you know, marketing
cloud, and I know, you know,service cloud.
And how can I translate that toNPC?
Is that what you mean?
Scott Stafford (09:57):
I think that you also want to know where things
are going, but understand whatNVIDIA is offering, understand,
you know, where this whole thingis going.
I I often tell people, hey, therobots are coming out.
It's gonna be here in twoyears.
We're basically doing thatright now.
We're we're building agenticsolutions that within two or
three years will actually be inthe robots.
And it's a great opportunity.
So try and figure out wherewhich each um ecosystem is gonna
(10:22):
be doing.
And Salesforce, you know,they've gone headless.
They want us to, you know, kindof change a little bit more to
get out of the CRM andunderstand all the different
places that we can deploy oursolutions.
So just kind of keep in yourhead understanding what
everything is, you know, whereeverything is going, the
different ecosystems, and thenwhere you can fit in and shine.
Josh Matthews (10:43):
That makes sense.
I'm kind of curious, Sasha, foryou, like if you if you could
just say one thing to the folkswho are listening, who are, you
know, they've heard stories forthe last three years, like, oh,
Salesforce, oh yeah, you know,it's gonna be awesome.
If they came to you and said,hey, I'm like a quarter through
my admin cert and I'm reallyexcited, what would you say to
(11:06):
those?
You take a 24-year-old person,right?
They're all excited, they'redoing this thing, they feel good
because they're on a path.
You don't have to be on theright path to feel good about a
path, by the way, guys, right?
Like you can, and as my dadalways said, no matter how far
down the wrong road, you've goneturned back.
And it's an old Turkish saying,right?
But like, what would you say tothe 24-year-old who's like,
(11:26):
yeah, I'm doing trailhead, lovethe community, yeah, I went to a
dreaming event.
Like, what are their chancesreally?
Sasha Semjonova (11:35):
Yeah, firstly, I think I would make sure that I
didn't dampen their enthusiasmtoo much because at the end of
the day, it's still, you know,incredibly rewarding to be
involved in the community, to beinvolved in Salesforce as an
ecosystem, the wider community.
All of that is still soimportant.
And the community keeps tellingme this as well.
(11:55):
I'm sure uh Scott advocates forthat as well.
But um, I think when it comesto the job market, I think I
would just be like, okay, youknow, please have this
enthusiasm.
It's gonna get you far, butalso be realistic.
Like listen to what yournetwork, the community is
saying, listen to what they'refinding is going great, listen
(12:16):
to what they're struggling with,you know, go on community
forums, go to these events likeyou've been going to, but ask
questions like, okay, you know,how did you experience this?
How long did it take you tofind your job?
You know, where are you seeingpeople hiring at the moment?
I think the the clearer of apicture that this person or
(12:37):
anyone listening can kind ofdevelop of what the market looks
like right now, the betterchance they have of succeeding
because the chance of, you know,the opportunity for success is
going to look different foreverybody.
You know, we can't just go,okay, go into this field and
you'll get a job tomorrow, orget into this field and you'll
be great.
No, it's more of a case ofokay, what's the market doing
(12:59):
and where is my place in it andhow can I get into it?
Josh Matthews (13:02):
I love that.
Yeah.
I kind of like it.
I don't love it.
And I'll tell you why.
That's I think it's a greatperspective because I'm all for
dampening people's spirit ifit's gonna save their life.
Yeah.
And but you're you're right.
I mean, it's like if they'relike someone's gonna make it in
Hollywood, you know what I mean?
(13:23):
It's like, yeah, go to LA, liketake your acting classes, like
you got in a commercial, great,keep going, you know, like maybe
you'll be the next Tom Cruiseor Tom Hanks or or you know,
whoever, um, Meryl Streep, gofor it.
Um, and you never want to killthat, but there's this massive
thing, and it's a problem.
And it's that 22 to 26 yearolds aren't getting jobs in
(13:48):
entry-level positions in techeasily.
It's about nearly 10% harderthis year than it was last year,
and last year wasn't great.
And so what can they for thosefolks?
They have to do somethingdifferent because if you've got
a three-year admin with fivecerts who's good, who has
(14:08):
references, who can't land ajob, and it's not just because
they want you know 90 grand,it's because there's not a job
for them because the agents aretaking over.
I had an admin and I fired himbecause I can go in and run my
stuff through agents now.
I can create a pick list, dothis, find this, get me 500
(14:32):
customers that I need for that,create a marketing campaign,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I don't need them.
I just don't need them.
But if you can find someone whocan like go in there, knows the
stuff so that they don't ruinit, but then can run the agents
to do it.
I mean, do you feel likethere's enough being said,
whether it's on Salesforce banor in your own journalism,
(14:53):
that's sort of like not tryingto poo-poo the whole ecosystem
because it's a great ecosystem,it's continuing to grow.
You know, when we talk aboutfeeling like things are sliding
backwards, we're talking aboutreduced growth.
We're not talking about massivelosses, right?
We're just talking aboutreduced growth.
Like, what's something that youwould say to that same person?
I'm I'm more curious about likewhat's your softer, gentler way
(15:17):
than sounding like me.
Like, what are you doing?
You know, don't do it.
I guess the reason why I wantto hear from Sasha real quick on
this.
Sure, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah like if you weregonna communicate, like, does
any of that ring true for you?
That's the first thing I wantto know.
And two, how would youcommunicate that differently
than me?
Like, what are you doing?
Sasha Semjonova (15:37):
Yeah, um, I'd say yes and no.
And I think this is why, youknow, a big part of what I
advocate for is be realisticabout the market.
I if you go back and read manyof my articles talking about the
job market, we and you know,myself, my fellow journalists
have said, okay, maybe youshould consider a career outside
(15:58):
of Salesforce.
We're not afraid of sayingthis, of course.
Josh Matthews (16:00):
Yeah.
Sasha Semjonova (16:01):
You know, the way that's just the way the
market is.
You might have a higher chanceof success in a adjacent
software.
Like there's no denying that.
But also in the same breath,over the last six months, I've
spent more time speaking toyoung talent in the ecosystem
who ended up getting jobs.
And I'm talking to, you know,uh ones that have come out of
(16:23):
different career programs.
And they said, Oh, I was soscared of what everybody was
saying, and then I ended up witha job.
And again, I think that's wherethe realism comes into it
because it's a case of you'regonna have people that are still
getting jobs.
These jobs are getting filled.
So Salesforce is hiring, it'shiring for a number of different
positions.
Partners are hiring for anumber of different positions,
(16:44):
doesn't mean you'll get one, butI don't necessarily think that
Salesforce, compared to perhapsany other adjacent company, is
more or less difficult to getinto right now.
I think they're all on the sameplaying field almost.
Josh Matthews (17:00):
You're saying the company or the ecosystem?
Sasha Semjonova (17:02):
I'd say both.
unknown (17:03):
Okay.
Sasha Semjonova (17:04):
I'd say both.
Yeah.
I think yeah, the advice I giveis if you are really
determined, you really, reallywant to be in this, you know,
ecosystem, you want to be withSalesforce for whatever reason
you have, go for it.
Just be realistic about whatyou need to do to get there.
Understand it will not be easy.
It's not gonna be easy anymore.
(17:25):
Those days are over, but youcan still do it.
And I think that's what needsto be said as well.
Josh Matthews (17:32):
Yeah, I think that's a that's well put.
And Scott, you were gonna jumpin there.
Go for it, man.
Scott Stafford (17:36):
I think the reason why I loved it is what I
heard from her is get out thereand actually hear.
Go to the events.
What is really magical aboutour ecosystem is there's a lot
of dreaming events.
Not all of the ones have somany opportunities where you can
go there and and find yourniche.
Talk to some people, say, hey,what's working?
Not necessarily there, you'regonna end up in Salesforce.
(17:57):
They might say, Hey, you'rereally good at this.
Hey, go and I have a job kindof um Salesforce adjacent with
Snowflake or something likethat.
We just heard that Snowflakewas killing it with their
earnings, a lot of opportunitythere.
So it is a really greatopportunity to go to cheap
conferences.
I go to quite a few conferencesand uh some of the bigger
companies cost two grand.
(18:18):
So being able to go and get aperspective from people is is
pretty cool.
And our ecosystem does have alot of people that lean in.
They lean in and they give youthe perspective, right?
Um, whether it's good or bad,they, you know, they kind of
tell you, you know, the truth ofthe matter, right?
Where it is.
And it kind of like thispodcast.
So there's a lot of opportunityhere, and and there's still
(18:40):
those that really want to getinvolved and put themselves out
there can get a job in thisecosystem.
Sasha Semjonova (18:46):
And just to quickly kind of add on to that,
if cost is a barrier, considergoing to the user groups as
well.
I'm a regular attender of theBristol Admin User Group.
Um, it's just a really, reallygood space to be able to kind of
connect with the community andtalk very candidly about
experiences and stuff like that.
(19:06):
If you're gonna learn anythinganywhere about the ecosystem,
it's within those spaces.
Josh Matthews (19:12):
That's great.
Really good recommendationsfrom both of you.
Appreciate you both sharingthose perspectives.
Because I can get a little hot,as you can tell.
I'm like, ah, but you know,that age group, that's the age
of my kids, you know.
And if my kid was like, I'mgonna be an admin, I'm like, I
don't know, dude.
No.
I'd probably be like, you cando whatever you want, and and
I'm always supportive of them.
(19:33):
But if you're not, if you'renot physically required to be
there, right?
A career, one's going into youknow anesthesiology uh
assistance, that type of thing,or physical therapy, that kind
of thing.
Oh, you need a person, uh, likea human there.
The other one uh is is uhmaking clay, you know, doing
(19:54):
clay, and another one's a gonnabe pilot.
Like they're they're all doingthese things where you
physically have to be there,which is a safe play for 15
years down the road.
So when they're 35, 38 yearsold, it's a good long play.
But if you're not gonna dothat, that's okay.
But wrapping your arms aroundan admin cert before wrapping
(20:14):
your arms around Claude, youknow, like serious stuff.
I don't mean like, you know,what's the best movie I should
go to?
Like, I'm not talking treatingit like Google.
I'm I'm seeing like reallyheavy stuff, like investing in
it and getting amazing at it andlearning how to build agents
outside of Agent Force.
Right, you know.
I mean, I've got I've gotagent, I've got Agent Force, but
(20:37):
it's not working great,honestly.
Like, like, like the juiceisn't worth the squeeze for me
right now on it, you know, andwe're seeing that a lot.
That's not a new story.
Yeah, I'm just one person outof thousands, right?
But juice isn't worth thesqueeze for me.
So, but I can do that stuff onmy own.
I can just go blah, blah, blah,blah, blah perplexity and build
(20:58):
this, go make that agent.
And I can do that stuff veryquickly and get the same juice
for a lot less squeeze.
And so anyone who's going outthere, I would just say augment
it, right?
If you're gonna go out there,you're gonna, you're if you're
job hunting right now and you'renot spending 10, 15, and you're
it's been six weeks sinceyou've had a great interview and
(21:18):
you're spending all your timeon trying to get this next cert,
thinking that's gonna get youpast your next interview, you've
got a uh you've got some uh uhchallenges with your
prioritization.
Because I'm assuming thatSasha, these these young folks
that that are coming up to youand saying, like, hey, I did it
and I like cranked and I gotthat job, weren't they nice?
Weren't they engaging people?
(21:39):
Weren't they friendly?
I mean, they came up to you.
That's a quality already.
Now you've got another, youknow, 40 to 60 percent of people
who would never do that intheir life.
They would never come up to youor me or Scott or anybody else.
And so we're talking about thepeople who are actually getting
these jobs are born with certainqualities and then work hard to
improve it.
(21:59):
They're not born with thosequalities, they have to work
really hard to overcome it.
And it often means that they'reactually not in the stream of
work that they probably shoulddo where they're going to feel
comfortable, where they're goingto feel natural.
I'm not talking about likeovercoming fears because that's
something different than howyou're wired to process
information in your brain or howyou're wired socially.
(22:22):
Do you see what I mean?
And so if you're not aparticularly social person, uh,
you know, work in the room at aconference is gonna be hard.
Doesn't mean you can't do it.
Vanessa and I have lots ofepisodes all about that from old
podcasts.
But just I really think that ifpeople paused, take some of
(22:45):
these profile uh tests, youknow, whether it's old school
MBTI test or disk or or um, Imean, God, there's like a
hundred of them, right?
Take three or four or five,feed all that into some AI.
Talk to the AI that you'realready working with that knows
you really well, and say, I knowyou know a lot about me, but
what don't you know about methat would help build a better
(23:06):
profile or understanding of me?
This isn't giving away thestore, guys.
This is getting better output,getting better results.
And just like, here's my MBTI,here's my disk, here's my this,
here's my that, you know me.
What else do you need to know?
Answer all those questions andbe like, on a scale of 10,
five's average.
How great is entering into aSalesforce admin role and
(23:27):
putting all my eggs into thatbasket right now?
Doesn't mean it's accurate, butto your point, Sasha, it's more
information.
Sasha Semjonova (23:36):
Absolutely.
Josh Matthews (23:37):
So let's stay.
Okay, I'm done ranting.
That's my little rant.
Um I'm I'm kind of interestedin um people having a good
understanding of what they'reseeing in the market.
And I saw a post from um JordanNelson.
If you don't know Jordan Nelsonright now, like I'd be shocked.
(23:57):
He's got 100,000 followers onLinkedIn.
He's a heck of a nice guy.
And he had a he had a neatpost.
It was so simple.
He's so good at LinkedIn, man.
This guy's LinkedIn game islike as good as it comes.
He's really fantastic.
And he had a post of ShaquilleO'Neal with um, oh God, I uh
Simone Biles.
Okay.
(24:17):
So one of the tallest athletesin the world and and possibly
the shortest athlete in theworld, right?
Both uh, both gold standards intheir work.
And she's this tiny littlething, and he's this huge thing.
And Jordan said, um, uh, wheredid it go?
I've got it in here somewhere.
Yeah, he said, I mean, am I theonly one who sees this?
(24:41):
And it had Shaq as Salesforcejob description and the salary,
Simone Biles, right?
And a lot of people commentedon this.
I think there's like 400 likes.
That's pretty big for LinkedIn,right?
So it really caught fire, and Ijust thought, yeah, that, but
that's when has that not beenthe case?
(25:02):
Like, that's not new.
And there's this kind of hiddencurrent of hiring.
So you're only seeing the jobsthat are not getting filled,
right?
Yeah.
So there's a real skew of like,yeah, it's shocking that you
keep seeing these jobs wherethey want the world and only
want to pay a bag of peanuts andthey're not getting filled.
(25:22):
You're in journalism, you'retalking to these people.
How much is it the case thatpeople are just not seeing all
the information?
Sasha Semjonova (25:30):
Hmm.
Josh Matthews (25:31):
Good point.
Sasha Semjonova (25:32):
I think that's a massive part of the market.
I think, yeah, the jobs uh welike to kind of pull out
sometimes and be like, okay,it's asking this, this, and
this.
You've got to have this manyyears of experience.
They sometimes ask for certs,not always, but they often
include quite a big amount ifthey're looking for a certain
amount of certs.
(25:52):
And then you're looking at thesalary.
And I'm obviously not based inthe US, but I see the salaries
and I'm like, okay, I knowthat's not a good salary.
I know what a good looks like,and that isn't one.
Um, but then again, kind of inthe same breath, there are
evidently people employed withinthe Salesforce ecosystem that
are happy where they are.
You just don't necessarily seethem talk about it.
(26:13):
But I think it is important,you know, that time is spent
looking at those jobs that, youknow, the salaries are
definitely not what they used tobe because that is a massive
thing that puts people offentering the market, staying in
the market.
We're seeing satisfactionacross the ecosystem lower.
Um, what when it comes to beingin the community, when it comes
(26:35):
to the work they do, thecompensation they get for their
work.
We do a salary survey everyyear and we uh kind of dissect
those results and kind of seehow the community is feeling
about their roles and howthey're compensated.
And yeah, it's not a prettylineup, unfortunately.
But as you said, it's not new.
I think it's something that weshould keep on looking at
(26:58):
because I don't personally thinkit's gonna change anytime soon.
And I think that anybodyentering or deciding whether
they want to stay in theecosystem should be very kind of
aware of that discrepancybetween the two.
Josh Matthews (27:11):
Yeah, good points, Sasha.
And I'll say this it's just amessage to the um head
headhunters, talent acquisitionteams, hiring managers, they're
the ones, someone's responsiblefor this output, right?
Someone wrote that jobdescription.
A lot of times, AI wrote it forthem.
(27:34):
And they suck at prompting.
And so it came out with a superunrealistic thing.
All right.
So don't do that, right?
Do research.
If you're gonna write a jobdescription from scratch and
you've never written really goodjob descriptions that know how
to attract the right kind ofcandidates for you, just pause,
do a little research, get goodat it.
(27:55):
You can get better at it inabout an hour.
Like it doesn't take much.
You can write a really goodprompt in about 15 minutes of
concerted, thoughtful, you know,programmatic thinking, right?
About what the output is.
And you don't have to just copyand paste and post, right?
I think the biggest fault thatthat I see, by the way, these
(28:16):
aren't companies that have neverhired Salesforce people before.
These are companies that areusually replacing someone they
lost.
And when we we talk about this,like you go into an
organization, and if you'rethere five years and you're
showing incremental, increasedcapabilities, responsibility,
(28:36):
you know, um, you're adapting.
Well, every time you're takingon something new, getting better
at something, you're just kindof screwing that unicorn horn
onto your forehead a little bitharder and a little bit tighter.
And then when you're like, Fthis, J Matt out, bye-bye, bye,
Felicia.
I'm taking off, and you'regone.
(28:57):
And you leave these people in alarch and they're like gasping
for air because you took thewind out of them, you kicked
them in the solar plexus, andnow they need to replace all of
you.
And it's gonna take two people.
It's gonna take two people.
I was talking to a colleague ofmine just yesterday, and he was
describing the job description,and it's no different than what
(29:18):
Jordan was highlighting.
I mean, that's a real thing,you know.
People are out there, and youknow, I think it was Felicia who
told told me once.
Um, she's like, that's not ajob, that's a team.
Right?
Like, that's a team.
So you want to hire a team,right?
(29:40):
And if these hiring managers,this little bit's for them, if
they can be thinking about like,okay, what's the core that if
someone came in for threemonths, crushed it, put
everything together, who wouldyou need then after that three
months?
Right.
Because you can get a couplecontractors in who kick ass who
don't want to work for you.
You can't afford them.
It's not a fit, but they'llcome in and set you up right,
(30:03):
right?
And then get the real personin, not the real person, but get
the person, the stable personin to just hunker down and knock
out the work with a littlearchitect check-in, you know,
uh, for one day every quarter,something like that, or every
month.
So I think that's a way aroundit.
Um, what's your advice, Scottand Sasha, for folks who are
(30:27):
seeing these unicorn postingsand then not applying, even
though maybe they should.
What would you say to them?
Scott Stafford (30:33):
Yeah, I'll I'll take that first.
I think there's a lot of um jobpostings that are, you know,
that they're overstated whatthey're really looking for.
And I definitely would, youknow, apply, but then also make
sure you reach out as a human,right?
DM, get in there, find everyway you can to connect with
somebody at the company so thatyou shine.
(30:54):
And then also just talkingabout the skill set.
I have 27 certifications.
I wish if I had to do it overagain that I would have had a
little bit more diversification.
I wish I had an NVIDIAcertification and I'm working on
it now, and then also an AWS,just giving me a little bit more
of a, you know, a broad profilefor people, you know, and it
(31:15):
also would help me just tounderstand, you know, all the
different ecosystems, how itfits together.
But definitely, I I've neverbeen someone that looks at
someone's, you know, a uh jobdescription and say, hey, that's
not for me.
I usually think, uh, it'salways overexaggerated.
And especially when I writeone, I'm like, look at this job
description, right?
There's nobody that couldactually fill this, right?
(31:36):
So they're always, you know,stating their dream list.
And if you get in there andshow them that you really want
it, right, and and that you canadapt and do the job, and you're
a real human, and and thatreally makes a big difference, I
think, right now, that you're ahuman, you want it, and you can
offer those soft skills incomplementing what they're also
looking for in the jobdescription.
Josh Matthews (31:56):
Yeah, good points.
Sasha?
Sasha Semjonova (31:58):
Yeah, no, I would say I definitely agree
with that.
Um, a lot of the responses thatcome from job advocates now, a
lot of them are going to be botsor AI in some form.
So if you can stand out as ahuman, you're already being that
percentage of people that haveapplied.
But also kind of as a youngperson in the kind of tech
market, I think my kind of thingI like to say to people is, you
(32:22):
know, I'm sorry, I know itsucks, but it's what you kind of
have to do.
If you don't do that, you know,your chances of getting a job
is just so much lower.
I think it it was even a fewyears ago, it was very
different.
It was if you had all thenecessary parts of a job
description, you could go aheadand apply.
Even if you didn't have some ofthem, if you were like, okay,
(32:43):
you could just lay out yourresume well enough or you wrote
a good cover letter, that wouldbe enough.
I think you definitely need todo a lot more now.
And I think I understand thatfrustration.
I understand it's tricky whenthe, you know, the economy is in
the shape that it is, when jobsare harder than ever to find.
But it's a case of going backto what we were talking about
(33:04):
earlier, the how do I stand out?
And as Scott said, the kind ofreaching out is a really, really
good way to do that.
Don't feel afraid of these joblistings.
Um, you won't know if you don'tapply.
If you really look at it andI'm like, no, okay, this is not
me at all.
I don't match any of thecriteria.
Don't waste your own time.
(33:24):
Like, just there's there's noneed to do that.
But if you're looking at it andyou go, okay, maybe this could
be me, just give it a go.
Give it a go.
Josh Matthews (33:32):
Yeah, just give it a go.
Just give it a go.
And and real I think it'sreally good for people to focus,
you know, when there's look,there's thousands of jobs out
there.
I don't know what there are,30,000, 40,000 job postings
right now.
Okay, cut those in half becausea bunch of them are just gonna
be agency stuff.
Cut those in half because a lotof them are doubled up.
You've got five agencies allworking on the same job.
Okay.
You there's still thousands ofjobs that, and at least hundreds
(33:56):
that you'd be qualified for formost people who've spent at
least 12 to 24 months in theecosystem out there.
The question is, how are yougonna stand out?
So do that.
There are other episodes thattalk all about that.
So go check that out.
You can check out the JoshForce YouTube channel.
You can check out tons of stuffon Salesforce Ben.
Um, there's so much informationabout how to improve your
(34:16):
chances in the job market.
But what we're trying to stickwith today is just improving
your understanding of what'sgoing on in the job market.
And and let's keep it real fora minute.
Okay, so unemployment right nowis hovering around 4.3, 4.3,
something like that in theUnited States.
That's not bad, guys.
Like that's not terrible.
4.0 is kind of a nice balancedaverage mix.
(34:37):
So it's not really horrible,but there's another um there's
another uh metric that's used.
I think they call it U6 or U3,something like that.
I'm I'm moderately unfamiliarwith it.
But when you look at theweather, so if I looked at the
weather here in Jupiter,Florida, and it might say 85
(34:59):
degrees feels like 98.
Okay.
So the feels like 98.
That's like your wind chillfactor, that's like your
mugginess factor for like whatdoes it actually feel like?
And it feels like it's eight ornine percent unemployment.
That's what it feels like.
Okay, it's not, but that's whatit feels like.
And we actually are closer tothat eight, nine percent in
(35:24):
technology because two factors.
One, people working part-time,so they're employed, but they're
not getting paid what theyneed.
They can't support themselves,they can't support their family.
Okay.
The other, the other factor ispeople who just stopped, they
gave up, they moved back home,they're playing video games,
they're not working, they quitwithout even bothering.
(35:45):
Okay.
So when you take that intoconsideration, now you're
looking at eight, eight and ahalf percent of of people, and
that skewed that is a little bithigher than what feels healthy,
right?
So the trick is when thesefolks don't uh aren't working or
they've quit working, a lot ofthem didn't quit being on
(36:07):
socials, and socials lovenegative, they love it, they
love it.
I mean, it's just I'm just II've said this a couple months
ago.
Don't get sucked into it, guys.
Don't get sucked into thenegativity.
Oh, corporate this, corporatethat.
I'm gonna tell you a story,quick story.
I interviewed a woman, neatlady, experienced, skilled,
(36:29):
decent work history, not a lotof flip-flopping, right?
Um, but she said somethingreally interesting.
And I had to ask her to go alittle bit more deeper.
And what she said is, you know,I want to work somewhere where
I can be my authentic self.
Like, what the fuck is that?
(36:50):
Okay, like I don't know whatthat is.
Like you're authentic or you'renot.
You're showing up as you oryou're not.
You know what I mean?
Like, I I'm different talkingto a client than I am on this
show.
I'm different when I talk toCasey, I'm different when I talk
to one of the kids, you know,or the checkout person at the
store, right?
(37:11):
Am I being inauthentic?
So I didn't really understandit.
So I I needed to push.
And it what what it turned outis it sounds like she's quite
creative and very communityorganized, uh uh and interested
in the community and all thatstuff's great.
But she also was communicatingsome information, like it
sounded like it almost soundedlike toxic work environments
(37:35):
were sort of very common, verynormal, and you need to be like
guards up to protect yourselfagainst that.
Okay.
And then I asked, I said, Well,has it happened to you?
She's like, Oh, no, no, not me.
I was like, really?
Then, like, why are you leadingwith that?
And she's like, Yeah, I don'tknow.
I said, You go to conferences,you go, you talk to a lot of
(37:56):
people, you're just likesocially involved.
She's like, Yeah.
I'm like, so I'm a big fan ofthese conferences, I'm a big fan
of Dream and Events, I'm a bigfan of Ohana Slack, I'm a big
fan of people who arelike-minded or differently
minded, getting together, havingdiscussions.
What I'm not a fan of are abunch of sour puss people with
big ideas, thinking that um, youknow, because they've had three
(38:21):
toxic bosses in a row, and bythe way, that means they're the
toxic person.
But because they have threetoxic bosses and because it's
very headline carryable, meaningit's very um that news can
travel fast in social media, itcan catch fire, threads can
explode, oh yeah, me too.
Oh yeah, F that, right?
Guys, again, like stay away,stay away from the sewer rats.
(38:46):
Okay.
And I when you when you go tothese conferences and you talk
to these people, or you go toeven a session where they're
talking about, you know, hostilework environments and this kind
of stuff.
I just want you to askyourself, like, is this person
kind of a kind of a jerk off?
You know, who you're listeningto?
That doesn't mean if they saythat they're a jerk off.
(39:06):
I'm not saying that they are.
I'm just saying you got to askyourself, like, will you hire
this person?
Does this person seem like it'snot jerk off, a pain in the
ass?
Is this person a pain in theass for an employer to work
with?
Because if you're a pain in theass, guys, nobody wants to hire
you.
And if if you're a pain in theass and you have a job, no one's
gonna want to keep you.
(39:27):
And as soon as they can say,uh, yeah, we're scaling down AI,
like, please go.
Um, I just I guess this is kindof my very because I haven't
been on this show for like twomonths, and I've seen it so many
times when I'm talking tocandidates that I can't work
with that.
Like you're good, but you talklike that, I can't place you.
(39:48):
I can't place you.
I'm focused on the top 10%.
That's not top 10% stuff.
And Sasha's made some reallyexcellent points about how to
stand out.
Well, that's a way to standout, but you'd be standing out
for all the wrong reasons.
You know, you've really got tokeep your context relevant,
which is I'm not working, I needa job, what am I willing to do?
(40:10):
Just about anything, anythingthat's legal, anything that's
not amoral.
Let me do that, right?
Will I eat crow?
Yeah.
Have I had to bite my tonguethrough my you know, 40 years of
work, 35 years of work?
Yeah, tons.
Still didn't bite it enough.
(40:30):
So, you know, what's the stateof the AI mark uh of the world
right now, the Salesforcemarket, what's going on with AI
in the market right now?
Humans win, right?
I mean, Scott and Sasha, youguys, you guys are a couple of
the you guys speak out on thisstuff all the time.
(40:51):
Your humanity will beat AI aslong as you know AI.
Scott Stafford (40:55):
Yeah.
Josh Matthews (40:56):
Your humanity, yeah, your humanity is gonna
beat out the other 999applicants, right?
But that doesn't just meanbecause you're a human, you have
to be a nice person.
You have to be transparent, youhave to be honest, you have to
have done some research.
I talked to another gal, shewas referred by a client of
mine.
Um, hey, I want you to checkout this person.
(41:18):
I'm gonna talk to her.
I loved her.
I thought she was fantastic.
She was really great.
She had done nothing in twoyears to invest in herself.
And I don't recommend, I didn'trecommend hiring her.
Like she could just spent aweek, just a week, a couple
nights.
Just like, what are theseterms?
What are those terms?
What's changed?
Just read an article, watch oneepisode of anything, you know.
(41:39):
She hadn't invested in anythingto prepare for the conversation
I had with her or to actuallyexit where she is and get
established in a new place.
I don't invest in people thatdon't invest in themselves.
And so you've got to invest inyourself.
And it's probably not going andgetting that extra
certification or even that CSMor any certification at all.
(42:01):
It's like, really, like, whatcan I do as a human to stand out
and be awesome?
Like be freaking the obviouschoice for when I'm going into
this job.
State of the market, 2026 isyour humanity matters, but boy,
you've got to rein it in and geta hold of yourself and like be
a good person and a nice personand do all the right things that
(42:23):
lead up to it.
And I want to I want to balancethat message, and then we're
gonna go and I've got morequestions for Sasha.
I want to balance that withthis, and it's real simple.
It's it's hard to staymotivated when you're feeling
demoralized, right?
(42:44):
When you're applying over andover again, and your spouse or
your partner, boyfriend orgirlfriend is like, how'd it go
today?
And you're like, not great.
And you're wondering whathappens when your card is maxed
out and your bank account is inthe negative, and now you're
writing bad checks.
And how you sit there and youlook at your kids and they go,
(43:05):
Did you get a job today, dad?
And you go, I'm working on it,kiddo.
Don't worry, like that's hard.
That's gonna take a big pieceout of you.
And let's face it, it'sheartbreaking.
I know I talk loud and I talklike cut it out and don't do
that shit, and don't be a fool,but that's on purpose.
I want you guys to know that'son purpose because it's fucking
(43:27):
wake up time to like get out ofyour own freaking way.
If you're failing right now toget a job, I promise you, it's
not the market.
4%, it's not the market.
It's decisions that you'vemade.
Just start making better onesright now and focus on the
things that you can do, that youcan control.
Where your effort is.
Does that make sense?
(43:48):
Does it make sense to you two?
Sasha Semjonova (43:51):
I'd say so.
Josh Matthews (43:52):
Just yeah, but but it's okay to feel hurt.
So, but you gotta, you know, Ithink these community groups are
great.
For giving you some lift.
You know, when I go, people arelike, oh, I see them.
It's like, you can do this.
There's so much love in theroom.
Go where you can find somelove.
Scott Stafford (44:09):
It'll buoy you.
All right.
A couple of times.
I think you gotta digest thattoo.
Negativity is not gonna get youa job.
That's just the I mean, yougotta get that in your head.
Be positive about what you'redoing.
Be honest with what you'redoing, right?
And then go make it happen.
Period.
Josh Matthews (44:26):
That's yeah.
There's a reason why they'relike, don't bitch about your
boss at a new company, right?
Because they're just gonnathink, are you gonna bitch about
me?
You know?
There's a real reason for that.
If you need to I I did that.
I left a job and then I got it,I got an interview, and oh my
god, I was just like the worstinterview.
All I did was complain abouthow all this stuff happened and
(44:47):
none of it was my fault.
I think I was like 30something, or I don't even
remember.
Like it was stupid.
I was terrible interview.
I wouldn't have hired me.
Um, not at all.
All right, Sasha.
I want to know um, I want toknow what you think is the next
thing.
Like I'm not asking for a fullprediction of like what's gonna
(45:13):
happen in 27 and 28.
That's okay.
But if there's a thing in theecosystem, whether it's
headless, you know, rememberwhen it was like remote is like
the big thing.
Like, yeah, what are youcatching a whiff of that maybe
there's not enough data toactually report on yet?
But you're spite you've gotspidey senses, I can tell.
Sasha Semjonova (45:35):
I do.
Josh Matthews (45:36):
Your in your intuition is like starting to
pull all these threads in, andyou're like, this is gonna be a
story, July, September.
Like what can you give us anidea?
What is that gut telling youright now?
Sasha Semjonova (45:51):
Yeah, for sure.
I think, and I'll kind of gointo a little bit about how it's
gonna potentially impactprofessionals after, but I
think, you know, Salesforce hasalready been hinting it with
Headless with everything they'redoing with Slack.
I think it's very evident thatSalesforce is focusing on
(46:11):
completely retransforming itsUI, right?
The way people interact withSalesforce is already starting
to become different.
But I think the amount ofchange that is going to happen
within the next two months,probably around Dreamforce time
as well, when they decide toannounce something big, you
know, we've already got ParkerHarris saying, why ever log into
(46:32):
Salesforce again?
And we've got Salesforce, youknow, releasing Slackbot and
Agent Force coworker that kindof connect all these things that
they've been working on since2024, all into one place, making
the UI simple.
I imagine they've heard theconversation that the
community's been saying for along time of Salesforce is too
complex, you're releasing toomany products, and we're getting
(46:55):
confused.
The getting confused part, Ithink Salesforce still has a
problem with that.
That's a conversation foranother day.
Um, but I think kind ofblending that and transforming
the UI so Salesforce is notentirely a different product,
but you almost work with itdifferently, that's gonna be the
next big thing, I think.
And for professionals, that'sgonna mean kind of having a
(47:18):
really particular knowledge ofthe platform and what influences
it.
You've got Claude in Salesforcenow, right?
You've got Anthropic, you'vegot all these different kinds of
agent connections.
They're bringing out more.
It's connections this week.
They've released four newagents for marketers, right?
I feel like there's just somuch coming out now.
And if you're not keeping ontop of that, you're not kind of
(47:42):
at least attempting to makesense of what's going on, the
direction that they're headingin, the way they've made things
headless.
And I don't think head headlessis just a starting point.
It's probably gonna acceleratefrom this point onwards.
If you're not kind of aware ofthe direction that Salesforce is
heading in, I think you're justgonna really struggle with the
platform because you, yes, ofcourse, you're gonna have
(48:03):
customers that are still workingwith Classic, for example, that
have really small orgs andstuff like that, but you'll also
be coming across thesebusinesses and these companies
that are like, okay, what's thenext thing that I can get from
Salesforce?
And if you're if you're notaware of what that is, then I
think you're really gonnastruggle.
Josh Matthews (48:22):
Excellent, excellent insight.
What does that mean for theISVs out there?
Sasha Semjonova (48:27):
I think it means a bunch of different
things.
I think Salesforce has begun todefinitely incentivize kind of
agent work for ISVs.
Um, they overhauled theirpartner program, they put in a
bunch of new things that arelike, okay, if you focus on
making um solutions orientatedaround agent force, around AI,
(48:47):
we'll give you these incentives,you know.
You'll put you're peddling ourmission almost.
But I also think ISVs now,because obviously ISVs are
separate to Salesforce, theyneed to really be trying to look
at, okay, what do my customersspecifically want from AI?
You know, like do they wantthese big, flashy integrations?
(49:09):
Do they want these a thousandcapabilities, or do they want
something smaller that can kindof just pull everything in their
org together, make things moreefficient?
I think now is the time forreally kind of understanding
your customers, understandingyour audience.
They're gonna be the onesbuying from you, they're the
ones gonna be, you know, talkingor choosing your solution,
(49:31):
understand them.
Now is the time to do it.
Josh Matthews (49:34):
Excellent insight, Sasha.
This has been a lovelyconversation.
It's been wonderful to have youon board.
Um, Scott, can you help usunderstand what conferences are
coming up?
What should be what shouldpeople be paying attention to?
I know you mentioned DreamForce.
We're all gonna be there,right?
Yes.
Okay, what else is going on?
Scott Stafford (49:54):
Yeah, all of us are gonna be there.
I I'm excited.
I'm gonna be going out to MileHigh.
Uh, that's a big conference.
It's gonna be out in um inColorado, and that's at the end
of August.
I believe they're still gonnabe having the one out in SoCal.
It's also in August.
Unfortunately, I think we heardthat um Force Landia got
canceled, right?
And and then there's alsoDreaming in Color.
(50:17):
I'm not actually sure exactlythe date, but that is That's in,
I think it's in July in Atlantathis year.
Josh Matthews (50:23):
Yeah.
Scott Stafford (50:23):
It's yeah, it is an incredible conference.
So uh lots of good peoplethere, and and it could help you
to get motivated, but also leanin and ask people for some
honest, you know, opinion.
Hey, what do you think I shouldfocus on?
Because I've been giving a lotdifferent, you know, perspective
for people that are doing umlike the admins are.
I'm saying, yeah, that's a goodplace.
(50:44):
You're almost done, but youprobably want to lean in a
little bit more to AI afterthis.
So, you know, have those deep,authentic conversations, you
know, be honest and just kind oflike what Sasha was saying.
Don't just listen to everythingthat Salesforce is saying.
They have their own agenda.
If you're an ISB, serve yourcustomers, right?
Find out what they want, right?
(51:05):
And have those conversationsand then build products for
them.
Josh Matthews (51:09):
Terrific.
And Sasha, you're gonna be atDreamforce.
Any other conferences orphysical appearances that you'll
be making?
Sasha Semjonova (51:16):
Yeah, I um I'll be at Dream Force.
I will also be at SF Ben Con,which is Salesforce Ben's uh
very first conference.
That's later in the year.
I don't have the month off thetop of my head, but I really in
London?
Uh yeah, it is gonna be inLondon.
The details are on theSalesforce Ben website.
Josh Matthews (51:35):
Fantastic.
Scott Stafford (51:35):
I have our good friend Gabby is working on that,
and she is really excited.
She was on your show, Josh, andshe says it's gonna be one
incredible conference.
Josh Matthews (51:45):
So exciting.
So exciting.
Sasha, you are welcome backanytime.
I thought your responses wereinsightful, um, like broad.
You're your like yourunderstanding of the ecosystem.
I mean, it's so different fromours, right?
Because you're looking at it sobroadly in a full-time
capacity.
(52:06):
Um, how can people follow you,stay on top of your article
releases, things like that?
Sasha Semjonova (52:13):
LinkedIn is definitely the place.
Yeah, I'm most active on theretalking about anything and
everything, especially if it'scontroversial.
If it's controversial, I'llhave my name on it.
So, yeah, you can definitelyfind me on LinkedIn.
Josh Matthews (52:25):
Fantastic.
Well, thank you, everybody.
We'll be back in two or threeweeks.
I'm not sure exactly when, butwe'll be back for another
episode uh sometime in June.
It's been a pleasure having youguys, and uh, we'll be back.
Bye for now.
Bye, everybody.
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