August 14, 2025 • 58 mins
What if the secret to living longer isn't found in cutting-edge supplements or complex biohacking, but in the timeless wisdom of Japanese rural communities? In this revealing conversation, 63-year-old biohacker and Ikigai Diet expert Sachiaki Takamiya shares groundbreaking findings from the World Longevity Summit held in Kyotango, Japan – a remarkable longevity hotspot with three times more centenarians than the national average.
Forget what you thought you knew about Okinawa. The latest research shows other Japanese regions now lead in longevity statistics, with Kyotango emerging as a living laboratory for understanding what truly contributes to a long, healthy life. Through the Kyotango Longevity Cohort Study, researchers have identified four interconnected pillars that support exceptional longevity: a primarily plant and fish-based diet rich in fiber, functional movement integrated into daily life, strong community connections, and a deep sense of purpose through contributing to others.
Sachi challenges Western misconceptions about ikigai, explaining how this concept relates to longevity in more nuanced ways than typically portrayed. Rather than simply "following your passion," the ikigai that supports longevity comes from feeling needed by others and having meaningful ways to contribute to your community. This perspective transforms how we might approach purpose in our later years.
The conversation explores practical applications of these principles, from the ideal ratio of plant to animal proteins (hint: it's 50/50), to simple movements that maintain crucial functional abilities like walking speed and grip strength. You'll learn about "Mago wa Yasashii Koku," the Japanese mnemonic for remembering essential food categories, and how community-based exercise naturally combines physical activity with social connection.
Whether you're fascinated by Blue Zones research, interested in Japanese culture, or simply want to understand how to live better for longer, this episode offers accessible wisdom that stands in refreshing contrast to complicated health protocols. Connect with Sachiaki through his YouTube channel "The Ikigai Diet Channel" or website theikigaidiet.com to continue your journey toward a more balanced, connected approach to longevity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ikigai is something you cannot measure, whether it
is contributing to yourlongevity or even health or not.
It's something so personal, sosubjective, but in some ways
maybe it is the driving force ofeverything.
Actually, you do, that'spossible, but it may not be
doing anything to the health ofus, so it's something that you
(00:24):
cannot measure.
So it's very difficult to saythat Ikigai is the factor of
longevity.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
My good friend, sachiaki Takamiya returns to the
Ikigai podcast.
Sachi has been a big part ofthe Ikigai tribe journey.
He was on episode three whatIkigai Means to the Japanese
with Sachiaki Takamiya, and thenon a double episode, episode 57
and 58, the Benefits of IkigaiBiohacking.
(00:55):
Sachi, you were a guest speakeron my online Ikigai Summit in
2023, and you were a guestfacilitator and speaker on my
Ikigai retreat last year.
You describe yourself as a63-year-old biohacker and you
are an expert on Ikigai dietlongevity and you have a big
(01:17):
update for us, so it's great tohave you back on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me toyour podcast again.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
My pleasure, good to see you.
So in June of this year, whichis 2025, the first World
Longevity Summit was held inKyotango, japan, kyotango, yeah.
So where is Kyotango and whywas it held there?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So Kyo-Tango is an area in Kyoto Prefecture, japan.
It is about one and a half houraway from Kyoto City.
But Kyo-Tango is a very specialplace because now it is known
as a longevity hotspot becausethere are three times as many
(02:04):
centenarians at the nationalaverage.
So there has been kind oflongevity cohort research going
on.
It's called the Kyoto TangoLongevity Cohort Study.
It is mostly done by KyotoPrefectural University of
Medicine.
Some of the doctors thereconduct this research with the
(02:24):
corporation of the Kyotango cityand they have discovered
they've done like so manysurveys and different kind of
things to check the health spanand lifespan of the residents in
Kyotango and then they have alot of data now.
So they decided to hold thisWorld Longevity Summit using
(02:48):
that data.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I understand Maybe some of our listeners would be
thinking oh isn't Okinawa theisland of longevity?
But, as we discussed, even inyour prefecture of Shiga there
are many centenarians.
But actually Okinawa is nolonger, actually, according to
Dan Buettner.
(03:10):
A few years ago he was on theRich Roll podcast saying Okinawa
is now the least healthyprefecture in Japan, with high
diabetes, obesity.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Obesity right, yeah, well, as far as as prefecture is
concerned, okinawa is kind oflow now and we have a kind of
national average life expectancyranking and then Shiga comes to
the top and then Nagano comesto the second and Okinawa is
very low.
But the region like thenorthern part of Okinawa where
Danbutana visited and that'swhere the main model of the blue
(03:47):
zone is still I mean thelifestyle there is still
traditional lifestyle and manypeople are healthy and they
probably live long.
But Okinawa as a prefecturedoesn't rank high in the
Japanese longevity rankings andso Kyoto prefecture is also high
.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Kyoto is third or fourth now, I see, and so within
Kyoto, kyoto Tango has thishigh density of centenarians,
and so I guess that was why thesummit was held there, and the
summit issued a world longevitydeclaration.
What was the core message?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
a World Longevity Declaration.
What was the core message?
So, based on this data theyhave of this KyoTango Longevity
Cohort Study and also there aredifferent presenters from
different countries anddifferent organizations like
healthcare companies and so onso just collected all those data
(04:45):
too, they came up with thislongevity declaration and then
they came up with the foursecrets.
Four secrets.
Yeah, should I just reviewthose four secrets or just we'll
go one by one?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, we'll go one by one, but I think it's you
mentioned.
To me it's not a singularfactor, but a holistic outcome
of combining specific lifestylechoices.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's right.
There's no single factor.
Like I said, many factors areimportant.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And they're obviously interconnected and mutually
reinforcing.
All right, so let's go throughthese four factors then.
What was the first one?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
The first one is, as most people expect, it is diet,
but especially kind of aplant-based or plant and
fish-based protein and fiber.
So one thing unique about thediet of the Kyo-Tango people is
that they mostly have a plantand fish-based protein and fiber
(05:55):
in their diet, not much meat,especially red meat.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Okay, and so does that mean they're eating seafood
and I think, also beans.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, they do eat a lot of beans and seafood and
seaweeds too, because Kyo-Tangois the peninsula located by the
sea, so fishing is very big inthe region, so they have a lot
of seafood, including seaweedsand beans too.
They do mostly soybeans, thoughthey have tofu, natto and miso
(06:29):
soup using miso, which is madefrom soybeans too.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And so they do talk about red meat moderation.
Why?
I mean?
I know there'll be all thisdebate on some people who eat a
carnivore diet and a vegan diet,but from what they were saying,
why are they recommending redmeat moderation?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
So, according to Dr Yuji Naito, who is one of the
researchers of this Kyoto TangoLongevity Cohort study and he is
a researcher at KyotoPrefectural University of
Medicine too so he says thatanimal-based protein and fat,
especially that comes from redmeat, feed harmful gut bacteria.
(07:17):
So we have a kind of beneficialbacteria and of bacteria in the
gut, and usually we need tokeep the ratio of good bacteria
to bad bacteria one, and thenthe rest is called opportunistic
bacteria and they are seven,and then opportunistic bacteria
(07:38):
go either way.
If the good bacteria becomedominant, then the opportunistic
ones follow the good ones, butif the bad bacteria become
dominant, the optimist bacteriafollow the bad ones.
So you want to have the goodbacteria slightly higher than
the bad ones.
But bad ones are not completelybad.
They do have certain roles.
(07:59):
So you don't want to eliminateall of the bat bacteria, but
just keep that ratio.
And then there are certainfoods that can increase bat
bacteria, such as sugar, alcohol, and then red meat is one of
the foods that are considered toincrease bat bacteria in the
gut.
So they recommend that you canstill eat them.
(08:23):
It's not like you shouldn't eatred meat at all, but you need
to reduce the amount.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Okay, and do you have a personal guideline on how
much meat one could eat based onyour diet?
I mean, you've written a book.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, so yeah, this is based kind of general
recommendation or this isactually by the World Cancer
Organization.
They say between 350 grams to500 grams of cooked red meat per
week.
So cooked meat is slightlylower than raw meat.
(09:02):
So, like, 500 grams of cookedmeat means somewhere around 700
grams of raw meat, depending onhow you cook the meat.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So if you love steak, you can have it three times a
week, probably.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, depending on the amount of steak too.
But yeah, probably somethinglike that.
So I usually limit red meat toonly the weekend.
I mean, I actually limit themeat to only the weekend and
then half of the meat I consumeis the chicken and then the rest
is pork or beef.
So probably, yeah, I am safe ifI'm consuming that amount.
(09:42):
But if you consume red meat ona daily basis, then you need to
be very careful with the amount.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And is there an optimal protein ratio in Japan?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
A protein ratio of plant-based and animal-based,
and so on.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So many doctors.
When I say doctors'm talkingabout kind of a popular doctors
who appear on youtube likerecently there are many medical
youtubers too.
They all seem to say that halfof the protein sources should
come from plant sources and halfshould come from animal sources
(10:53):
, so that you can balance,because there are benefits from
plant-based protein sources andthere are obviously benefits
from animal-based plant sourcestoo.
So by combining the two you canhave a good balance of the two.
That seems to be the commonopinion of many Japanese doctors
(11:16):
.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I do remember when my son was born in Japan, so this
is now 21 years ago.
Before the birth, my wife and Iwent to the local education
classes on diet and everythingfor us as parents but also for
having a baby, and theymentioned basically the 1970s
(11:40):
diet of Japan, which had a lotof vegetables, a lot of standard
kind of miso soup, beans,pickles, fish and then a little
bit of red meat.
They said that was like theideal diet.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, 1970s diet is considered to be kind of a
standard Japanese diet.
I mean, it's kind of a standardof the healthy Japanese diet.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So what else did they say was important for diet?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
So the balance is very important.
And for the fiber, because mostof us are short of fiber, we're
not getting enough fiber.
So now do you know how muchfiber we need per day, or what
are the sort of recommendedamount of fiber that we should
(12:30):
have a day?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Well, I could lie and say I do and look at my notes,
but I'm not going to do that, soI actually don't.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
According to WHO, they recommend about 25 grams of
fiber per day, and then inJapan the recommendation differs
depending on your age and sex.
But for most adults let's say,you know, people who are over 40
to maybe 60, 70, they recommend22 grams of fiber per day.
(13:07):
But most of us are not gettingthat amount.
So to get that amount of fiber,you need to deliberately try to
include fiber-rich ingredientsin your diet, which means lots
of vegetables and beans,vegetables, beans, nuts and
seeds, whole grains, mushrooms,potatoes such as sweet potatoes
(13:34):
and taros, and then seaweeds too.
So those include a lot of fiber.
But all animal-based food don'tinclude fiber, such as meat,
fish, eggs or dairy.
So if you want to increase thefiber intake, that means you
need to source your food fromthose categories.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Almost every day now, I have a oven-baked Japanese
sweet potato.
Oh yeah, oh good, really easy.
I just get it.
I turn on the oven fairly lowheat, put it in wait for about
an hour an hour and I don't know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, and
then, yeah, it shrinks slightly.
(14:19):
So then the skin is really easyto pull off and I just mash
that up and I might have somesauerkraut or kimchi oh, yeah,
oh great.
yeah, so it's, and it's reallynice.
It's sort of obviously it's notas starchy as white potatoes,
kind of easier to eat.
It's got a softer consistency.
(14:39):
So you are the author ofseveral books, one being the Big
Eye Diet.
Would you add anyrecommendations?
So we've got, protein iscritical, so we want this
balance of plant and fish basedprotein according to this
longevity declaration, reduceour meat intake and then have an
(15:01):
ideal protein ratio betweenplants and fish and then
obviously have enough fiber inour diet.
So 20 to 25 grams, so thatwould obviously include a high
vegetable intake.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, high vegetable intake is important too.
So what I recommend is usingthis guideline called ma go wa
yasashii koku, which basicallymeans ma means beans, all kinds
of beans, and go means basicallymeans sesame seed, but
(15:38):
basically nuts and seeds, yeah,and then wa seaweed, and then ma
go wa yeah, it's vegetables,and then sa it's fish, and si
it's mushrooms, and I it'spotatoes or tubers, and then
core grains and fruit.
(16:00):
So beans, nuts and seeds,vegetables, seaweed, fish, whole
grains, potatoes, fruit.
If you focus on ingredients,then you get plenty of fiber.
And then for the fish, itdoesn't have a fiber but it has
(16:21):
omega-3 fatty acids and they arevery good for your gut health
as well.
Plus, fish has a lot of protein.
It is animal-based proteinsource.
But when I say fish, I'mtalking about kind of a smaller
fish and possibly wild caught.
Wild caught fish and small fishsuch as sardines or mackerel
(16:43):
and those I think you call themfatty fish.
They contain a lot of omega-3fatty acid, but not big fish
like a tuna.
And then for the ratio of, Isaid half from plant and half
from animal and myrecommendation would be so among
the animal side.
(17:04):
So half come from animal buthalf from fish and half from
chicken and egg and a little bitof red meat.
But if you try to source yourprotein from fish, eggs and
chicken, then you'll be safefrom this kind of a gut bacteria
issue.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I remember you delivered a webinar on Magoya
Sushi, magoya Sashi Koku, soKoku is obviously a new.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yes, the Japanese original is called Mago wa
Yasashi, up to the tubers.
But I added Koku, which arewhole grains and fruit.
Oh, you added it.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And so that's a common mnemonic device, a memory
device in Japan that peoplepass on so people remember to
eat this.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, Among the health-conscious people.
In Japan now, mago wa yasashiiis very popular.
It is used a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
And so each syllable ma represents mame, which would
be beans.
So we'll put an explanation onthat on the website, because
it's quite complicated and we'llprobably be talking another
hour.
Okay, okay, yeah, good, Okay.
So what was the next factor forlongevity?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
they identified the next factor is also easily
guessed, a very common factorthat many people usually talk
about.
So exercise.
Exercise was another key tolongevity.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
And did they have any particular recommendations?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yes.
So one thing they said was, asyou get old, certain functions
deteriorate.
But how do you measure that youare getting older or how do you
measure that your function isgetting weaker?
So they said, by two things.
So one is your walking speed,especially when you are crossing
(19:11):
the traffic light, and if youcannot cross the street before
the light changes, then it is asign that you have a problem in
conducting regular routines.
So walking speed is one.
And this is really true becauseI remember my mother I think she
was.
You know she loved walking verymuch.
(19:33):
She was always walking to getto places, but when she was
maybe 82 or 83, suddenly herwalking speed decreased and also
her walking distance decreasedtoo.
Like she used to be able towalk one or two kilometers
without any problem, but thenshe was able to walk only 500
(19:54):
meters.
Then it became 300 meters.
So the walking speed is one.
The second thing is your gripstrength.
So if you have one of those, aPET bottle, and if you have a
problem opening it, then it is asign that your grip strength is
(20:17):
getting weaker.
So because of that they try torecommend kind of exercise to
train those two factors and forthe walking part is obviously
walking.
Walking, especially Nordicwalking, is something
recommended in the Kiotango city.
I think the Kiotango citypromotes Nordic walking, so now
(20:40):
many people engage in Nordicwalking.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I know you do that as well.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Well, I don't do it these days anymore, but I used
to do it.
And then this is the one that Istarted doing, when I started
doing exercises, which was in mylate 50s.
I mean, when I was young I didsome sports, but I didn't
exercise for a long time.
And then I started doing it inmy late 50s.
And then the first thing wasNordic walking.
And it is very good becauseit's not just regular walking.
(21:09):
When you walk with your pole,you have your back straight.
Therefore you can have a goodposture while walking.
So it's really beneficial inthat way too, and I find walking
very relaxing mentally,compared to joking, which I do
now, but when I jog it's not.
(21:30):
It's still hard, so it's not asrelaxing as walking, so it's
not so fun, but walking isalways fun.
The time you walk you kind ofrelax and you enjoy the view and
you kind of think of somethingexciting, and so it has a mental
benefit, I feel.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, I agree, maybe not always thinking of something
exciting, but so enjoying theview.
I mean, I take a walk inbetween Zoom calls and sometimes
I listen to music, butsometimes I think, oh, it's such
a nice day, I'll fullydisconnect from technology.
Oh, that's good yeah it feelsgood and it's easy.
(22:13):
Any other activities?
Did they recommend any other?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
activities.
Also, they recommend Gu Pa Taiso, which in Japanese this is Gu
and this is Pa.
That's when we do the you know,rock, scissors, paper, like
when you decide something we dolike a janken pon, and then so
this is gu, this is choki andthis is pa.
So gu and pa.
(22:39):
You just open your palms andclose, open, close, and this can
train your grip strength.
So they recommended gupa Taiso.
And the last one is Radio Taiso, which is a popular kind of
dynamic stretching exercise inJapan.
It's broadcasted on NHK radioat 6.30 in the morning, so some
(23:03):
people gather in the schoolground at 6.30, and then they
practice this.
We call it radio tai.
So Radio means radio, so radiotai so.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, I remember reading some years ago and this
is an irony, I guess that afterWorld War II this was actually
introduced to the Japanese byAmericans.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
I think originally there wassome dynamic stretching exercise
popular in America and that wasintroduced to Japan and it
became more popular in Japan.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I wake up in the morning and I'll see the workman
basically doing some form ofradio tiesaw, or at least some
form of warm-up in a circle, andthey're sort of talking to each
other.
So tiesaw means exercise.
So we've got gupa, which isclenching your fists and then
opening up your hand, maybe theway you would sort of surprise a
child or a baby, and you mightgo like that, right, yeah.
Yeah sort of surprise a child ora baby, and you might go like
(24:13):
that, right, yeah, yeah.
And then radio tai.
So is basically listening tothe radio and being guided
through dynamic stretches andwalking, so it doesn't take a
lot, and I think also gardeningis something yes, so gardening
is something people naturally doin kyotango.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Actually, this is everywhere throughout Japanese
countryside, because mostresidents have rice fields or
vegetable fields.
They used to be farmers, I mean, some of them are still farmers
now, but Japanese farms aremuch smaller than you know
European or Australian farms, sowhen you say farms, it's a very
(24:53):
small sort of scale.
But they still keep some ricefields and vegetable fields, and
so a lot of older people stillwork in their garden.
So that's how they keep moving,so they have lots of natural
movement in their daily life.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, it's like a garden patch.
Right yeah, where my wife'sfrom one of her neighbors would
have a garden patch, and sheremembered from high school even
to fairly recently, thinking,oh there's this old lady always
working on her garden patch.
She must have tended to thegarden for 50 years.
(25:34):
It obviously kept her going andobviously the benefits of the
garden itself, the vegetablesgrowing and cooking your own
vegetables.
So now we get into the thirdfactor for longevity.
So what's that one?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
The third is basically communication and the
kind of a sense of communitythere, because people in
Kyo-Tango this is also the samethroughout Japanese countryside
Usually, you know, neighboursknow each other and they have a
lot of common activities, like,for example, in my neighborhood
(26:11):
too, we have a neighborhoodassociation group and we do the
theoretical cleanup of theneighborhood, including the
shrine, and we have lots ofevents such as sports festival
in autumn and summer festival,spring festival and so on.
So there's a strong communitytie and in Kyochango area they
(26:34):
had a lot of a kind of batteringsystem in the past, so they did
communicate a lot with theirneighbours.
So that communication is one ofthose four factors of longevity
.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, you noted in the notes notes.
You called it.
Community cohesion, yes, andthen there's also that added
benefit of intergenerationalconnection.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Yeah, so many of the centenarians have, you know,
grandchildren and sometimesgrand-grandchildren, and then
they still seem to have a goodbond with their family members.
So not many of them live alone.
So, in other words, many ofthem live with their family, so
they still have thatcommunication in their everyday
(27:26):
life.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, which is a wonderful thing I remember.
Before we left Japan to returnto Australia, we spent one year
living with my father-in-law.
So you know Luke would havethis connection with his
grandfather and he probablydidn't remember it much, but
there were certainly benefitsand obviously my father-in-law
(27:47):
enjoyed having his grandsonaround and we don't really do
that in the West.
We don't have intergenerationalfamilies living in the one
house like three generations.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
And it is getting rare in the urban side of Japan
too.
It is still common in thecountryside, but not so much in
big cities.
They have nuclear families andusually grandparents don't live
with their children, but in thecountryside it's still pretty
common to have three generationsliving in the same house.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, so it seems in Japan, and I guess in any
country, the closer people liveto a city center, the more
unhealthy they become, perhapsbecause of diet.
They have these more convenientdiets, fast food diets, that
they're busy with theircity-related jobs, I guess we
(28:38):
could call them.
Maybe they don't exercise.
If they do exercise, they do itat a gym, maybe not outside in
nature, not walking.
And then there's a lot ofisolation and loneliness, which
is a big problem, you know, injapan with hikikomori and
kodokoshi, like lonely deathsand social isolation.
(28:59):
And then, even though we're,we're connected through the
internet and through our phones,it's it's obviously not the
same as in-person connection.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
So yeah, I don't know .
I mean, I think the best one isface-to-face communication.
Obviously, yeah, but withonline communication I think
there are differences betweenlike what we're doing now, like
one-on-one communication.
This is probably closer to theface-to-face communication.
(29:33):
While you are texting messagesto maybe I don't know, not to a
specific person, but to just noone you write a message and
someone comments to you, andthen you don't even know the
commentator.
So that kind of communicationprobably doesn't help with this
thing.
But if you know the person andif you spend some time doing a
(29:57):
session like that with thatperson, I think that can be
counted as sort of a newface-to-face communication, I
suppose.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah, so there is this broader social aspect I
think you've mentioned toohaving friends and socializing
with others.
It's obviously important.
It increases, I guess,longevity when we have others to
connect with and perhaps a roleor a reason to connect with
others.
And so I think that leads us tothis fourth factor that the
(30:30):
KyoTango Longevity Summit summitannounced.
So what's the fourth one?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
yeah, the fourth one is something that most people
don't guess.
I mean, it's been around andsome people guess it, but not
many people think of it as oneof the four factors for
longevity.
But this is actually yourspecialty, nick, it's ikigai.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Well, actually, before you continue, Sachi,
there is this very romanticnotion that ikigai is the secret
to longevity because of abest-selling book.
But with this factor, I thinkwe have more context and clarity
, obviously on what the peoplein Kiotango worked out.
So, yeah, I'm always cautioushearing this sort of romantic
(31:23):
idea that, oh you know, ikigaiis the secret to longevity
because it's very subjective.
Your ikigai could be beer or,you know, eating comfort food
which would not be healthy foryou.
Um, so what?
What are they saying ikigai isin this context?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
yeah, so they usually ikigai means so, like daily
joys or daily pleasure thatmotivates you to keep going,
such as, you know, drinkingcoffee or even walks and so on,
and also more kind of lifepurposes type of Ikigai too.
But the one they defined atthis summit are the first one is
(32:03):
a feeling of wanting tocontribute to others and feeling
of being needed by others.
So basically, first one is thefeeling of wanting to contribute
to others and the second one isthe feeling of being needed by
others.
So this kind of a social aspectseems to be important in the
(32:26):
Ikigai Something you exist andmean to other people and you
feel you belong to the communityyeah, I've had other guests
convey this, this idea of asense of belonging, a sense of
purpose in a role context.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You have a role, I think in kami's book, in the
first few pages she talks about,is it muinkan?
Like you have no significanceand that's why people are
unhappy, suicidal, they have nosignificance.
But you feel significance whenyou can contribute and you feel
(33:06):
needed by others.
Even in some surveys, when theyinterviewed japanese university
students like let's say what isikigai for you?
And some would reply saying, oh, just being needed by my
friends or you know my friendswanting me to help them makes me
feel ikigai.
So it is this social aspect andit goes.
(33:28):
Yeah, as you mentioned, it goesbeyond joys, but it seems to
connect back to community.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Right, yeah, it is in a way part of the community
communication aspect.
So in the summit there's onepresentation where they have
some single old people, I meanlike an old man or woman living
alone.
They, for some reason, theydon't live with their children,
and then they are the ones whobecome a little problem if they
(33:59):
live alone.
But then what the peopleencourage them to do is to go to
school to teach the childrenabout something that they know,
their skill, and then in thisway they get to communicate with
children but also they get tocontribute to the community so
(34:21):
they can have this Ikigaithrough like a volunteering
teaching in the local schools orschools or community centres.
So I think that the example ofhaving this kind of Ikigai is to
serve the community.
If you're old, maybe you knowgiving some of your wisdom or
(34:43):
experience to younger generation.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, I guess it's this feeling that in some way
you matter and so motivates youto keep living, to keep
contributing, give you a role.
Yeah, the opposite of thatseems to be loneliness and this
feeling I don't matter.
And then what do you have tolive for?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Right, and we naturally had this role in the I
mean not all, but like back in1950s, 60s and so on, still
still now.
But more and more thisneighborhood association is kind
of shrinking.
But in the past old people hada role within the community.
(35:26):
So they all had aresponsibility, so that they had
something to contribute to thecommunity.
So they felt they were needed,and that was also the secret in
Okinawa too.
Okinawa has what they calledMoai, this neighborhood group.
And then the old people had arole to pass down their wisdom
and knowledge to youngergenerations or something.
(35:48):
Down their wisdom and knowledgeto younger generations or
something.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, I remember watching a documentary on Moai
and how it was.
I'm not sure if they stillpractice it, but I remember
basically it was when childrenfirst went to school or their
form of school back, I guess,even pre-war or sort of post-war
Japan and then they'd say,right, you six people, you six
friends, will be friends forlife, obviously making the
(36:15):
assumption that they would alllive in that village in Okinawa
for the rest of their life.
Obviously, the miracle oftravel, of getting in a plane
and getting off a plane in adifferent country, it has all
these amazing benefits.
But, yeah, it's given us thisability to leave our home, to
(36:36):
leave our village, to leave oursuburb, our community, and
hopefully we end up joininganother one.
But, yeah, all the benefits oftechnology have also maybe come
at a price.
Did they mention anything aboutLife Mission?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
They didn't particularly mention about life
mission.
It's more like this,contributing to the community.
But in my video, my YouTubevideo, because I did pick up
this topic to present in myYouTube channel and then I added
this mission thing.
You usually for people in thecountryside, you know you cannot
(37:16):
expect them to have a specificmission in their life and so on,
but for someone like me or many, many other people in the world
, probably have a certainmission or certain kind of
vision in their life that maybethey feel they want to do
something to the world.
That's why they were born,that's why they came here for.
(37:39):
And then that kind of missioncould be artistic mission, like
if you're a musician or writer,maybe writing some specific
piece of work or creatingcertain music or even performing
or, you know, drawing somepicture or some mission could be
more political or environmental, or even health.
Health promoting health can beyour mission too, and in your
(38:01):
case, maybe spreading theconcept of ikigai to the western
world would be your mission.
So something slightly biggerthan just serving your local
community, which is fine too.
I mean, it's very preciousthings to serve the community.
But those of us who live in anurban area or don't have a
(38:23):
specific community, then thiskind of life mission can be your
ikigai and in fact, this canbecome the very motivation to
keep going.
I mean, for me this is the case.
I mean the ikigai biohacking orthe ikigai diet spreading.
This is my ikigai and thereforethat's why I exercise every day
(38:46):
, or that's why I am carefulwith my diet, because I need to
be healthy to continue doingthis work.
So this is the goal.
The diet or exercise is themean to achieve this goal, but
this is the core motivation.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Well, as you know, I support your mission, satyaki,
and that's yeah, you're right,that is.
My mission is to spread Ikigai,but obviously that involves
learning, researching, talkingto people like you and getting
it.
I guess, getting it right andaccurate and being respectful.
So I also think it has thisrole dynamic.
(39:26):
It's not just a mission, it's arole of service, contribution
and maybe it's just now, as youmentioned, we can reach more
people by location or bytechnology, and the role still
exists in a small community.
Maybe it doesn't have aswidespread impact, but still has
(39:49):
meaningful impact within thatcommunity.
But there's also this idea ofyou believing what you do is
unique to you to some degree,maybe to you know an incredible
degree where you're a uniqueartist or you know a unique
sports person or an entrepreneur.
But it can also be a job, acommon job you do uniquely.
(40:12):
Or, as we're doing, we've kindof carved out our own niche and
role with me specifically with,I guess, ikigai in general, but
you're kind of more niche withhealth and diet and longevity
related to ikigai.
Yeah, we get this incrediblesense of uh, I'm sure both of us
(40:34):
have this incredible sense ofsatisfaction.
You know, we're using ourcreativity to communicate, to
teach others, to market, to getour message across.
So we'll we'll embed that videoif you want your YouTube video
on your summary of the summitand where you mention personal
(40:55):
mission.
So, as I mentioned before, I'vealways been hesitant about
relating Ikigai to longevitybecause it can romanticize the
concept.
I see many posts on LinkedIndescribing ikigai as the secret
to longevity and happiness.
Ikigai can definitely encourageself-care behaviors what we've
talked about today exercise,eating well and it definitely
(41:17):
includes social connection.
But because ikigai issubjective and it's totally
personal, I have this hesitationof saying I have this
hesitation of saying, oh yes, itguarantees longevity, or
something like that.
You and I don't mind having abeer every now and then, which
is a source of ikigai for us.
We shared a beer, I think, inInuyama, and some people enjoy
(41:42):
being alone.
My wife really enjoys beingalone and doing her crafts and
just relaxing.
So what are your thoughts onthis?
How strong do you think theikigai longevity connection is?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
well, um, so ikigai is not only for the longevity.
So yeah, I see what you mean.
I mean because it wasintroduced in dan buter's talk,
that because Okinawans haveikigai and then therefore it
became part of the longevitything In Japan.
Ikigai was never thought to bethe factor of longevity up until
(42:23):
Dan Buettner's discovery.
So now they are talking aboutikigai, but I think this is
partly influenced by DanBuettner's discovery.
So now they are talking aboutikigai, but I think this is
partly influenced by DanBuettner's Blue Zone
presentation.
So I think even this KyoTangosummit too, they included ikigai
because in the last 10 years orso, many people are researching
(42:43):
about ikigai as a factor oflongevity.
But ikigai in general is notonly for longevity, it's just
something we we have in japanthat.
So there's so many dimensions,so many meanings to it, so just
like a daily joy, and I thinkdaily joy and pleasure are
(43:05):
probably most common part ofikigai.
When you ask what is yourikigai, many people say oh, you
know, drinking beer is my ikigai, or morning coffee is my ikigai
, or spending some time with mygrandchildren is ikigai, and so
on, and so it's more like a sortof everyday, kind of small
thing.
It's not a big thing.
(43:31):
So often in the West ikigai ispresented to be like sort of
significant kind of thing, butit's nothing special for
Japanese people, it's just aregular word that we use, and
also for longevity it isdifficult to relate to.
I mean, diet is very clear Likeyou need to have this diet.
(43:52):
Exercise is clear too.
You can kind of scientificallymeasure you are doing good for
your body and so on.
But ikigai is something youcannot measure whether it is
contributing to your longevityor even health or not.
It's something so personal, sosubjective, but in some ways
maybe it is the driving force ofeverything.
(44:15):
Actually you do.
That's possible, but it may notbe doing anything to the health
of us.
So it's something that youcannot measure.
So it's very difficult to saythat Ikigai is the factor of
longevity, other than kind ofmaking this kind of definition
that Samit did like, wanting tocontribute to others or feeling
(44:40):
of being needed by others.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, that's all interesting.
So I mean, I think ultimatelyit's been a good thing that dan
butner related ikigai tolongevity, because it's it's
made more people aware ofprobably eating a better diet,
exercising and having socialconnections, and it's also maybe
made japanese realize, oh, whatwas normal for us is not normal
(45:08):
for the rest of the world.
And so, yeah, maybe we need tomake sure we maintain this type
of lifestyle and not end upeating like a Western diet,
which unfortunately Japanese are.
You know, they're eating morefast food, junk food.
I remember that, like the superbreakfast of Japanese, it'd be
like brown rice, pickles, misosoup, maybe izakana, like
(45:31):
grilled fish, and when I staywith friends in Japan they don't
eat that anymore.
They're eating fried egg, a bitof salad, thick white toast.
I'm like, oh, you know, whatare you guys doing?
And then I think there are manyscales that try to measure
ikigai, but they measure it in acertain context.
(45:52):
So even like the ikigai 9,which has become quite common,
it's really measuring ikigai 9.
Yeah, the ikigai 9 scale.
I'll, I'll send you a link toit.
Oh yeah, okay, it was developedby Japanese researchers, but
basically it has nine items andthree of them relate to
(46:14):
contribution.
So you know, am I contributingto others?
Am I needed, basically?
And then another three itemsrelate to, basically, personal
growth.
So I want to learn new things,I want to have a mentally rich
life.
And then the other three itemsrelate to inner states.
(46:35):
So how often am I happy?
And yeah, they actuallymentioned, say, shinteki yutori
say shinteki yutori yeah, howmuch mental space do I have?
So there are scales.
There's quite a few scales.
There's something also calledthe Ikigai Kan scale.
There's the Ikigai four-factorscale, but they're using the
(46:57):
scale to try and define Ikigai.
So even the scales, they're alldifferent.
Some are similar and some arequite different, but it would be
trying to measure health,wellness, well-being and
positive psychology all at once,which is just, you know, pretty
(47:20):
be a lot of questions and someof the scales are quite long.
There's 16, and some of thescales are quite long.
They're 16 measures, 16statements.
But anyway, going back totoday's theme about longevity,
so in short, the KiotangaSummit's Declaration on
(47:40):
Longevity underscores a holisticapproach combining a primarily
plant and fish-based fiber-richdiet, practical and community
focused physical activity,robust social connections and,
most importantly, a profoundsense of purpose and
contribution to one's community.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
So it's almost promoting that we go back to
living in communities yeah, like, uh, this is what we call the
satoyama lifestyle in thejapanese countryside.
So going back to the old styleJapanese country life is very
much this.
So, yeah, going back to thecommunity and then you naturally
(48:18):
end up having a good diet andthen you move naturally, so you
end up exercising.
And then one thing I noticedabout the exercise is so now, in
today's biohacking world, whenpeople think of exercise, most
people think of going to the gym.
I mean, strength training isrecommended so much these days.
(48:39):
Many people do some kind ofresistance training and also
zone two, aerobic exercise,which is like jogging or walking
can be, but it's morestructured and there are lots
and lots of methods to improveyour health.
But while the one they practicein kyo tango and nothing so
(48:59):
special, very basic activity.
But one thing I noticed wasmany of them do it together.
So they have a different sportsfacilities in Chiotango area,
but I don't know, but lots andlots of like a ground and
gymnasiums are open to public,so and then probably there they
(49:19):
offer, like a table tennisclasses or, you know, swimming
classes and so on.
So they get together and do thesport with others.
So there are kind ofinteractions involved, and that
is becoming their ikigai too, todo their sports with their
friends their ikigai.
So that's a unique thing aboutJapanese approach compared to
(49:43):
the Western this going to thegym and doing a specific
exercise regimen.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Yeah, yeah, significant and important point.
It almost sounds like theexercise is also an e-bash or
like a community, a place tobelong.
And you're right.
Most people go to the gym andyou know if they're young guys
they might go with a friend andspot each other and they're
(50:13):
always on the bench press seeinghow much they can lift or see
much how they I mean probablythat's the ikigai too.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
I mean I can see that like showing their muscle.
Is the ikigai that used to?
Speaker 2 (50:24):
be my ikigai when I was a teenager.
So hopefully as we get older weget a little bit wiser.
But yeah, I mean, exercise inany form is great, but this
added element of community andkeeping it not so strict and not
so, you know, there's a thingwhen you go to the gym there's
this element of stress like, oh,I have to improve and I have to
(50:46):
lift more and I have to recordeverything and get out my app
and track this and track thatand it probably does.
I don't know more mental harmthan good when it becomes
stressful.
But this idea of communities Imean even for me.
I know I lack community,community.
(51:07):
And here I am trying to preachIkigai and I spend a lot of time
in this room.
So even recently I'd spent fourdays learning about coaching in
person and it was great and I,you know, I sort of made some
new friends and there was funand playfulness to the group
work and had these meaningfulconnections.
(51:29):
And now that's all gone and I'msort of back in my room focused
on work and of course, you knowI get to interview people like
you and have a good time.
But I do think community isreally important and I think
it's also the future of mybusiness and so, as you know,
I'm thinking about returning toJapan to do more in-person
(51:51):
retreats, and so you were partof my first Ikigai retreat last
year.
So this is one of my sources ofIkigai, which is obviously
sharing Ikigai with othersthrough connection in Japan with
my Japanese network and friends, which includes you.
So you were a special guestpresenter on my Ikigai retreat
(52:12):
and you facilitated an Ikigaidiet cooking class and you gave
this incredible insightfulspeech on diet, health and
Ikigai.
You did it off the cuff, youhad no notes, you just sort of
gathered.
We all sat down and you juststarted talking.
It blew us away and then, yeah,it was really captivating and
(52:33):
everyone really enjoyed that andthe cooking class was great.
You made miso soup using yourhomemade cultivated miso and we
had natto salad, so that wasinteresting.
So, yeah, such that wasfantastic.
So thank you for being a partof that no, thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
I mean I enjoyed myself too.
I mean you know it was reallygreat.
Uh, to you know, meet um, yourparticipant there, and then, to
you know, get to share mycooking method of you know,
making natto salad and miso soupand so on.
And also they were so eager tolearn.
They asked me so many questions.
(53:12):
So I was very happy to you knowanswer those questions, because
I get to know what kind ofthing they were interested in or
what kind of thing comes intotheir mind when they try to
practice those health measuresat home, like what are the sort
of things they get confused andthings.
So it was a very great learningto understand what people
(53:37):
wanted, what people areinterested in, and especially
because they came from differentcountries too, so how different
regions have differentenvironment and different
limitations too.
I mean, especially when youtalk about Japanese ingredients,
some regions they're notaccessible, so you need to think
(53:57):
of alternative ingredients ineach region and so on.
So it was great learning for meand I really enjoyed
interacting with them too.
So, yeah, thank you for givingme the opportunity to do that
presentation, not at all and, asyou know, I'm inviting you back
for the retreat again thisNovember.
(54:19):
Yeah, this autumn.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
So, if anyone's listening and you want to meet
Sachi in person and I mean, Icall Sachi Sachi because he's a
friend, so but yeah, and learnabout healthy eating and diet in
this holistic context, becauseyou talk about many things,
you're very knowledgeable and,yeah, I wish you had more
(54:43):
exposure because I think you'reintroducing a unique angle on
health and it's not, it's not afad and you, you have no ego and
you're not self.
You know you're not trying toself promote yourself.
You're, you're always servingthe listener, but I'd like to
promote you, sachi.
So you've written several books.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
You've written Ikigai Died.
I think you've written a bookcalled Ihi Gai and Biohacking,
and what was your written bookon Nato?
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Live Wiser, Not Smarter.
Nato Unleashed is a book aboutNato and also the Live Wiser,
Not Smarter.
This is the newest book, theLive Wiser, Not Smarter.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
And that's the one you gave my participants at the
retreat.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Yes, that's right.
That's right, yes.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
Actually, it's a really good book because it's an
easy read, it's concise andkind of gets to the most
important points quickly.
So another aspect is havingsomething to look forward to of
Ikigai.
Yeah, so we have the retreat tolook forward to, Right?
So where can people find you?
What's the best website?
Speaker 1 (55:57):
The website is the Ikigai Diet.
It's called theikigaidietcom.
So theikigaidietcom has basicinformation about the ikigai
diet, but I haven't uploaded theblog there recently, but I
upload YouTube twice a week.
So if you have a YouTubeplatform, then you go to the
(56:22):
ikigai diet channel.
The ikigai diet channel is mychannel.
Then you can find lots ofvideos relating to health and
longevity.
It's called the Ikigai DietChannel.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
We'll link to that.
So we'll link to your website,We'll link to the channel.
We'll include the notes on that.
Mnemonic device Mamoga.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Right Mago wa yasashii koku.
Speaker 2 (56:47):
Mago wa yasashii koku .
Mago wa yasashii koku.
And yeah, we'll keep everyoneupdated on the retreat.
So if people want to join,visit ikigai-tribecom for more
details.
And thank you so much, yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Inuyama is a great place too.
It has a famous castle.
It's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, you're right, theretreat's hosted away from all
the tourist spots.
We have it at a lovely locationin Inuyama and we get special
access to temples to people suchas Sachi and it's more like a
it's not really a retreat.
(57:26):
You know, we're not doing yogaand doing day spas, we're
learning.
We're learning and living andexperiencing ikigai through
Japanese culture and throughmeeting Japanese.
So it's going to be great.
So I'm going to do my best,sachi, and hopefully I'll see
you in November for the secondikigai retreat.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yes, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
Okay, thanks, my friend.
Good to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
Okay, thank you.
Thank you too.
Ikigai is something you cannot measure, whether it
is contributing to yourlongevity or even health or not.
It's something so personal, sosubjective, but in some ways
maybe it is the driving force ofeverything.
Actually, you do, that'spossible, but it may not be
doing anything to the health ofus, so it's something that you
(00:24):
cannot measure.
So it's very difficult to saythat Ikigai is the factor of
longevity.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
My good friend, sachiaki Takamiya returns to the
Ikigai podcast.
Sachi has been a big part ofthe Ikigai tribe journey.
He was on episode three whatIkigai Means to the Japanese
with Sachiaki Takamiya, and thenon a double episode, episode 57
and 58, the Benefits of IkigaiBiohacking.
(00:55):
Sachi, you were a guest speakeron my online Ikigai Summit in
2023, and you were a guestfacilitator and speaker on my
Ikigai retreat last year.
You describe yourself as a63-year-old biohacker and you
are an expert on Ikigai dietlongevity and you have a big
(01:17):
update for us, so it's great tohave you back on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me toyour podcast again.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
My pleasure, good to see you.
So in June of this year, whichis 2025, the first World
Longevity Summit was held inKyotango, japan, kyotango, yeah.
So where is Kyotango and whywas it held there?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
So Kyo-Tango is an area in Kyoto Prefecture, japan.
It is about one and a half houraway from Kyoto City.
But Kyo-Tango is a very specialplace because now it is known
as a longevity hotspot becausethere are three times as many
(02:04):
centenarians at the nationalaverage.
So there has been kind oflongevity cohort research going
on.
It's called the Kyoto TangoLongevity Cohort Study.
It is mostly done by KyotoPrefectural University of
Medicine.
Some of the doctors thereconduct this research with the
(02:24):
corporation of the Kyotango cityand they have discovered
they've done like so manysurveys and different kind of
things to check the health spanand lifespan of the residents in
Kyotango and then they have alot of data now.
So they decided to hold thisWorld Longevity Summit using
(02:48):
that data.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I understand Maybe some of our listeners would be
thinking oh isn't Okinawa theisland of longevity?
But, as we discussed, even inyour prefecture of Shiga there
are many centenarians.
But actually Okinawa is nolonger, actually, according to
Dan Buettner.
(03:10):
A few years ago he was on theRich Roll podcast saying Okinawa
is now the least healthyprefecture in Japan, with high
diabetes, obesity.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Obesity right, yeah, well, as far as as prefecture is
concerned, okinawa is kind oflow now and we have a kind of
national average life expectancyranking and then Shiga comes to
the top and then Nagano comesto the second and Okinawa is
very low.
But the region like thenorthern part of Okinawa where
Danbutana visited and that'swhere the main model of the blue
(03:47):
zone is still I mean thelifestyle there is still
traditional lifestyle and manypeople are healthy and they
probably live long.
But Okinawa as a prefecturedoesn't rank high in the
Japanese longevity rankings andso Kyoto prefecture is also high
.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Kyoto is third or fourth now, I see, and so within
Kyoto, kyoto Tango has thishigh density of centenarians,
and so I guess that was why thesummit was held there, and the
summit issued a world longevitydeclaration.
What was the core message?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
a World Longevity Declaration.
What was the core message?
So, based on this data theyhave of this KyoTango Longevity
Cohort Study and also there aredifferent presenters from
different countries anddifferent organizations like
healthcare companies and so onso just collected all those data
(04:45):
too, they came up with thislongevity declaration and then
they came up with the foursecrets.
Four secrets.
Yeah, should I just reviewthose four secrets or just we'll
go one by one?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, we'll go one by one, but I think it's you
mentioned.
To me it's not a singularfactor, but a holistic outcome
of combining specific lifestylechoices.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's right.
There's no single factor.
Like I said, many factors areimportant.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And they're obviously interconnected and mutually
reinforcing.
All right, so let's go throughthese four factors then.
What was the first one?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
The first one is, as most people expect, it is diet,
but especially kind of aplant-based or plant and
fish-based protein and fiber.
So one thing unique about thediet of the Kyo-Tango people is
that they mostly have a plantand fish-based protein and fiber
(05:55):
in their diet, not much meat,especially red meat.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Okay, and so does that mean they're eating seafood
and I think, also beans.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, they do eat a lot of beans and seafood and
seaweeds too, because Kyo-Tangois the peninsula located by the
sea, so fishing is very big inthe region, so they have a lot
of seafood, including seaweedsand beans too.
They do mostly soybeans, thoughthey have tofu, natto and miso
(06:29):
soup using miso, which is madefrom soybeans too.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And so they do talk about red meat moderation.
Why?
I mean?
I know there'll be all thisdebate on some people who eat a
carnivore diet and a vegan diet,but from what they were saying,
why are they recommending redmeat moderation?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
So, according to Dr Yuji Naito, who is one of the
researchers of this Kyoto TangoLongevity Cohort study and he is
a researcher at KyotoPrefectural University of
Medicine too so he says thatanimal-based protein and fat,
especially that comes from redmeat, feed harmful gut bacteria.
(07:17):
So we have a kind of beneficialbacteria and of bacteria in the
gut, and usually we need tokeep the ratio of good bacteria
to bad bacteria one, and thenthe rest is called opportunistic
bacteria and they are seven,and then opportunistic bacteria
(07:38):
go either way.
If the good bacteria becomedominant, then the opportunistic
ones follow the good ones, butif the bad bacteria become
dominant, the optimist bacteriafollow the bad ones.
So you want to have the goodbacteria slightly higher than
the bad ones.
But bad ones are not completelybad.
They do have certain roles.
(07:59):
So you don't want to eliminateall of the bat bacteria, but
just keep that ratio.
And then there are certainfoods that can increase bat
bacteria, such as sugar, alcohol, and then red meat is one of
the foods that are considered toincrease bat bacteria in the
gut.
So they recommend that you canstill eat them.
(08:23):
It's not like you shouldn't eatred meat at all, but you need
to reduce the amount.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Okay, and do you have a personal guideline on how
much meat one could eat based onyour diet?
I mean, you've written a book.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yeah, so yeah, this is based kind of general
recommendation or this isactually by the World Cancer
Organization.
They say between 350 grams to500 grams of cooked red meat per
week.
So cooked meat is slightlylower than raw meat.
(09:02):
So, like, 500 grams of cookedmeat means somewhere around 700
grams of raw meat, depending onhow you cook the meat.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So if you love steak, you can have it three times a
week, probably.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, depending on the amount of steak too.
But yeah, probably somethinglike that.
So I usually limit red meat toonly the weekend.
I mean, I actually limit themeat to only the weekend and
then half of the meat I consumeis the chicken and then the rest
is pork or beef.
So probably, yeah, I am safe ifI'm consuming that amount.
(09:42):
But if you consume red meat ona daily basis, then you need to
be very careful with the amount.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And is there an optimal protein ratio in Japan?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
A protein ratio of plant-based and animal-based,
and so on.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So many doctors.
When I say doctors'm talkingabout kind of a popular doctors
who appear on youtube likerecently there are many medical
youtubers too.
They all seem to say that halfof the protein sources should
come from plant sources and halfshould come from animal sources
(10:53):
, so that you can balance,because there are benefits from
plant-based protein sources andthere are obviously benefits
from animal-based plant sourcestoo.
So by combining the two you canhave a good balance of the two.
That seems to be the commonopinion of many Japanese doctors
(11:16):
.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I do remember when my son was born in Japan, so this
is now 21 years ago.
Before the birth, my wife and Iwent to the local education
classes on diet and everythingfor us as parents but also for
having a baby, and theymentioned basically the 1970s
(11:40):
diet of Japan, which had a lotof vegetables, a lot of standard
kind of miso soup, beans,pickles, fish and then a little
bit of red meat.
They said that was like theideal diet.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, 1970s diet is considered to be kind of a
standard Japanese diet.
I mean, it's kind of a standardof the healthy Japanese diet.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
So what else did they say was important for diet?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
So the balance is very important.
And for the fiber, because mostof us are short of fiber, we're
not getting enough fiber.
So now do you know how muchfiber we need per day, or what
are the sort of recommendedamount of fiber that we should
(12:30):
have a day?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Well, I could lie and say I do and look at my notes,
but I'm not going to do that, soI actually don't.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
According to WHO, they recommend about 25 grams of
fiber per day, and then inJapan the recommendation differs
depending on your age and sex.
But for most adults let's say,you know, people who are over 40
to maybe 60, 70, they recommend22 grams of fiber per day.
(13:07):
But most of us are not gettingthat amount.
So to get that amount of fiber,you need to deliberately try to
include fiber-rich ingredientsin your diet, which means lots
of vegetables and beans,vegetables, beans, nuts and
seeds, whole grains, mushrooms,potatoes such as sweet potatoes
(13:34):
and taros, and then seaweeds too.
So those include a lot of fiber.
But all animal-based food don'tinclude fiber, such as meat,
fish, eggs or dairy.
So if you want to increase thefiber intake, that means you
need to source your food fromthose categories.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Almost every day now, I have a oven-baked Japanese
sweet potato.
Oh yeah, oh good, really easy.
I just get it.
I turn on the oven fairly lowheat, put it in wait for about
an hour an hour and I don't know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, and
then, yeah, it shrinks slightly.
(14:19):
So then the skin is really easyto pull off and I just mash
that up and I might have somesauerkraut or kimchi oh, yeah,
oh great.
yeah, so it's, and it's reallynice.
It's sort of obviously it's notas starchy as white potatoes,
kind of easier to eat.
It's got a softer consistency.
(14:39):
So you are the author ofseveral books, one being the Big
Eye Diet.
Would you add anyrecommendations?
So we've got, protein iscritical, so we want this
balance of plant and fish basedprotein according to this
longevity declaration, reduceour meat intake and then have an
(15:01):
ideal protein ratio betweenplants and fish and then
obviously have enough fiber inour diet.
So 20 to 25 grams, so thatwould obviously include a high
vegetable intake.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, high vegetable intake is important too.
So what I recommend is usingthis guideline called ma go wa
yasashii koku, which basicallymeans ma means beans, all kinds
of beans, and go means basicallymeans sesame seed, but
(15:38):
basically nuts and seeds, yeah,and then wa seaweed, and then ma
go wa yeah, it's vegetables,and then sa it's fish, and si
it's mushrooms, and I it'spotatoes or tubers, and then
core grains and fruit.
(16:00):
So beans, nuts and seeds,vegetables, seaweed, fish, whole
grains, potatoes, fruit.
If you focus on ingredients,then you get plenty of fiber.
And then for the fish, itdoesn't have a fiber but it has
(16:21):
omega-3 fatty acids and they arevery good for your gut health
as well.
Plus, fish has a lot of protein.
It is animal-based proteinsource.
But when I say fish, I'mtalking about kind of a smaller
fish and possibly wild caught.
Wild caught fish and small fishsuch as sardines or mackerel
(16:43):
and those I think you call themfatty fish.
They contain a lot of omega-3fatty acid, but not big fish
like a tuna.
And then for the ratio of, Isaid half from plant and half
from animal and myrecommendation would be so among
the animal side.
(17:04):
So half come from animal buthalf from fish and half from
chicken and egg and a little bitof red meat.
But if you try to source yourprotein from fish, eggs and
chicken, then you'll be safefrom this kind of a gut bacteria
issue.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I remember you delivered a webinar on Magoya
Sushi, magoya Sashi Koku, soKoku is obviously a new.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yes, the Japanese original is called Mago wa
Yasashi, up to the tubers.
But I added Koku, which arewhole grains and fruit.
Oh, you added it.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
And so that's a common mnemonic device, a memory
device in Japan that peoplepass on so people remember to
eat this.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, Among the health-conscious people.
In Japan now, mago wa yasashiiis very popular.
It is used a lot.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
And so each syllable ma represents mame, which would
be beans.
So we'll put an explanation onthat on the website, because
it's quite complicated and we'llprobably be talking another
hour.
Okay, okay, yeah, good, Okay.
So what was the next factor forlongevity?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
they identified the next factor is also easily
guessed, a very common factorthat many people usually talk
about.
So exercise.
Exercise was another key tolongevity.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
And did they have any particular recommendations?
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yes.
So one thing they said was, asyou get old, certain functions
deteriorate.
But how do you measure that youare getting older or how do you
measure that your function isgetting weaker?
So they said, by two things.
So one is your walking speed,especially when you are crossing
(19:11):
the traffic light, and if youcannot cross the street before
the light changes, then it is asign that you have a problem in
conducting regular routines.
So walking speed is one.
And this is really true becauseI remember my mother I think she
was.
You know she loved walking verymuch.
(19:33):
She was always walking to getto places, but when she was
maybe 82 or 83, suddenly herwalking speed decreased and also
her walking distance decreasedtoo.
Like she used to be able towalk one or two kilometers
without any problem, but thenshe was able to walk only 500
(19:54):
meters.
Then it became 300 meters.
So the walking speed is one.
The second thing is your gripstrength.
So if you have one of those, aPET bottle, and if you have a
problem opening it, then it is asign that your grip strength is
(20:17):
getting weaker.
So because of that they try torecommend kind of exercise to
train those two factors and forthe walking part is obviously
walking.
Walking, especially Nordicwalking, is something
recommended in the Kiotango city.
I think the Kiotango citypromotes Nordic walking, so now
(20:40):
many people engage in Nordicwalking.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I know you do that as well.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Well, I don't do it these days anymore, but I used
to do it.
And then this is the one that Istarted doing, when I started
doing exercises, which was in mylate 50s.
I mean, when I was young I didsome sports, but I didn't
exercise for a long time.
And then I started doing it inmy late 50s.
And then the first thing wasNordic walking.
And it is very good becauseit's not just regular walking.
(21:09):
When you walk with your pole,you have your back straight.
Therefore you can have a goodposture while walking.
So it's really beneficial inthat way too, and I find walking
very relaxing mentally,compared to joking, which I do
now, but when I jog it's not.
(21:30):
It's still hard, so it's not asrelaxing as walking, so it's
not so fun, but walking isalways fun.
The time you walk you kind ofrelax and you enjoy the view and
you kind of think of somethingexciting, and so it has a mental
benefit, I feel.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, I agree, maybe not always thinking of something
exciting, but so enjoying theview.
I mean, I take a walk inbetween Zoom calls and sometimes
I listen to music, butsometimes I think, oh, it's such
a nice day, I'll fullydisconnect from technology.
Oh, that's good yeah it feelsgood and it's easy.
(22:13):
Any other activities?
Did they recommend any other?
Speaker 1 (22:17):
activities.
Also, they recommend Gu Pa Taiso, which in Japanese this is Gu
and this is Pa.
That's when we do the you know,rock, scissors, paper, like
when you decide something we dolike a janken pon, and then so
this is gu, this is choki andthis is pa.
So gu and pa.
(22:39):
You just open your palms andclose, open, close, and this can
train your grip strength.
So they recommended gupa Taiso.
And the last one is Radio Taiso, which is a popular kind of
dynamic stretching exercise inJapan.
It's broadcasted on NHK radioat 6.30 in the morning, so some
(23:03):
people gather in the schoolground at 6.30, and then they
practice this.
We call it radio tai.
So Radio means radio, so radiotai so.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, I remember reading some years ago and this
is an irony, I guess that afterWorld War II this was actually
introduced to the Japanese byAmericans.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
I think originally there wassome dynamic stretching exercise
popular in America and that wasintroduced to Japan and it
became more popular in Japan.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I wake up in the morning and I'll see the workman
basically doing some form ofradio tiesaw, or at least some
form of warm-up in a circle, andthey're sort of talking to each
other.
So tiesaw means exercise.
So we've got gupa, which isclenching your fists and then
opening up your hand, maybe theway you would sort of surprise a
child or a baby, and you mightgo like that, right, yeah.
Yeah sort of surprise a child ora baby, and you might go like
(24:13):
that, right, yeah, yeah.
And then radio tai.
So is basically listening tothe radio and being guided
through dynamic stretches andwalking, so it doesn't take a
lot, and I think also gardeningis something yes, so gardening
is something people naturally doin kyotango.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Actually, this is everywhere throughout Japanese
countryside, because mostresidents have rice fields or
vegetable fields.
They used to be farmers, I mean, some of them are still farmers
now, but Japanese farms aremuch smaller than you know
European or Australian farms, sowhen you say farms, it's a very
(24:53):
small sort of scale.
But they still keep some ricefields and vegetable fields, and
so a lot of older people stillwork in their garden.
So that's how they keep moving,so they have lots of natural
movement in their daily life.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, it's like a garden patch.
Right yeah, where my wife'sfrom one of her neighbors would
have a garden patch, and sheremembered from high school even
to fairly recently, thinking,oh there's this old lady always
working on her garden patch.
She must have tended to thegarden for 50 years.
(25:34):
It obviously kept her going andobviously the benefits of the
garden itself, the vegetablesgrowing and cooking your own
vegetables.
So now we get into the thirdfactor for longevity.
So what's that one?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
The third is basically communication and the
kind of a sense of communitythere, because people in
Kyo-Tango this is also the samethroughout Japanese countryside
Usually, you know, neighboursknow each other and they have a
lot of common activities, like,for example, in my neighborhood
(26:11):
too, we have a neighborhoodassociation group and we do the
theoretical cleanup of theneighborhood, including the
shrine, and we have lots ofevents such as sports festival
in autumn and summer festival,spring festival and so on.
So there's a strong communitytie and in Kyochango area they
(26:34):
had a lot of a kind of batteringsystem in the past, so they did
communicate a lot with theirneighbours.
So that communication is one ofthose four factors of longevity
.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yeah, you noted in the notes notes.
You called it.
Community cohesion, yes, andthen there's also that added
benefit of intergenerationalconnection.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Yeah, so many of the centenarians have, you know,
grandchildren and sometimesgrand-grandchildren, and then
they still seem to have a goodbond with their family members.
So not many of them live alone.
So, in other words, many ofthem live with their family, so
they still have thatcommunication in their everyday
(27:26):
life.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Yeah, which is a wonderful thing I remember.
Before we left Japan to returnto Australia, we spent one year
living with my father-in-law.
So you know Luke would havethis connection with his
grandfather and he probablydidn't remember it much, but
there were certainly benefitsand obviously my father-in-law
(27:47):
enjoyed having his grandsonaround and we don't really do
that in the West.
We don't have intergenerationalfamilies living in the one
house like three generations.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
And it is getting rare in the urban side of Japan
too.
It is still common in thecountryside, but not so much in
big cities.
They have nuclear families andusually grandparents don't live
with their children, but in thecountryside it's still pretty
common to have three generationsliving in the same house.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, so it seems in Japan, and I guess in any
country, the closer people liveto a city center, the more
unhealthy they become, perhapsbecause of diet.
They have these more convenientdiets, fast food diets, that
they're busy with theircity-related jobs, I guess we
(28:38):
could call them.
Maybe they don't exercise.
If they do exercise, they do itat a gym, maybe not outside in
nature, not walking.
And then there's a lot ofisolation and loneliness, which
is a big problem, you know, injapan with hikikomori and
kodokoshi, like lonely deathsand social isolation.
(28:59):
And then, even though we're,we're connected through the
internet and through our phones,it's it's obviously not the
same as in-person connection.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
So yeah, I don't know .
I mean, I think the best one isface-to-face communication.
Obviously, yeah, but withonline communication I think
there are differences betweenlike what we're doing now, like
one-on-one communication.
This is probably closer to theface-to-face communication.
(29:33):
While you are texting messagesto maybe I don't know, not to a
specific person, but to just noone you write a message and
someone comments to you, andthen you don't even know the
commentator.
So that kind of communicationprobably doesn't help with this
thing.
But if you know the person andif you spend some time doing a
(29:57):
session like that with thatperson, I think that can be
counted as sort of a newface-to-face communication, I
suppose.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah, so there is this broader social aspect I
think you've mentioned toohaving friends and socializing
with others.
It's obviously important.
It increases, I guess,longevity when we have others to
connect with and perhaps a roleor a reason to connect with
others.
And so I think that leads us tothis fourth factor that the
(30:30):
KyoTango Longevity Summit summitannounced.
So what's the fourth one?
Speaker 1 (30:35):
yeah, the fourth one is something that most people
don't guess.
I mean, it's been around andsome people guess it, but not
many people think of it as oneof the four factors for
longevity.
But this is actually yourspecialty, nick, it's ikigai.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Well, actually, before you continue, Sachi,
there is this very romanticnotion that ikigai is the secret
to longevity because of abest-selling book.
But with this factor, I thinkwe have more context and clarity
, obviously on what the peoplein Kiotango worked out.
So, yeah, I'm always cautioushearing this sort of romantic
(31:23):
idea that, oh you know, ikigaiis the secret to longevity
because it's very subjective.
Your ikigai could be beer or,you know, eating comfort food
which would not be healthy foryou.
Um, so what?
What are they saying ikigai isin this context?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
yeah, so they usually ikigai means so, like daily
joys or daily pleasure thatmotivates you to keep going,
such as, you know, drinkingcoffee or even walks and so on,
and also more kind of lifepurposes type of Ikigai too.
But the one they defined atthis summit are the first one is
(32:03):
a feeling of wanting tocontribute to others and feeling
of being needed by others.
So basically, first one is thefeeling of wanting to contribute
to others and the second one isthe feeling of being needed by
others.
So this kind of a social aspectseems to be important in the
(32:26):
Ikigai Something you exist andmean to other people and you
feel you belong to the communityyeah, I've had other guests
convey this, this idea of asense of belonging, a sense of
purpose in a role context.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You have a role, I think in kami's book, in the
first few pages she talks about,is it muinkan?
Like you have no significanceand that's why people are
unhappy, suicidal, they have nosignificance.
But you feel significance whenyou can contribute and you feel
(33:06):
needed by others.
Even in some surveys, when theyinterviewed japanese university
students like let's say what isikigai for you?
And some would reply saying, oh, just being needed by my
friends or you know my friendswanting me to help them makes me
feel ikigai.
So it is this social aspect andit goes.
(33:28):
Yeah, as you mentioned, it goesbeyond joys, but it seems to
connect back to community.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Right, yeah, it is in a way part of the community
communication aspect.
So in the summit there's onepresentation where they have
some single old people, I meanlike an old man or woman living
alone.
They, for some reason, theydon't live with their children,
and then they are the ones whobecome a little problem if they
(33:59):
live alone.
But then what the peopleencourage them to do is to go to
school to teach the childrenabout something that they know,
their skill, and then in thisway they get to communicate with
children but also they get tocontribute to the community so
(34:21):
they can have this Ikigaithrough like a volunteering
teaching in the local schools orschools or community centres.
So I think that the example ofhaving this kind of Ikigai is to
serve the community.
If you're old, maybe you knowgiving some of your wisdom or
(34:43):
experience to younger generation.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yeah, I guess it's this feeling that in some way
you matter and so motivates youto keep living, to keep
contributing, give you a role.
Yeah, the opposite of thatseems to be loneliness and this
feeling I don't matter.
And then what do you have tolive for?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Right, and we naturally had this role in the I
mean not all, but like back in1950s, 60s and so on, still
still now.
But more and more thisneighborhood association is kind
of shrinking.
But in the past old people hada role within the community.
(35:26):
So they all had aresponsibility, so that they had
something to contribute to thecommunity.
So they felt they were needed,and that was also the secret in
Okinawa too.
Okinawa has what they calledMoai, this neighborhood group.
And then the old people had arole to pass down their wisdom
and knowledge to youngergenerations or something.
(35:48):
Down their wisdom and knowledgeto younger generations or
something.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, I remember watching a documentary on Moai
and how it was.
I'm not sure if they stillpractice it, but I remember
basically it was when childrenfirst went to school or their
form of school back, I guess,even pre-war or sort of post-war
Japan and then they'd say,right, you six people, you six
friends, will be friends forlife, obviously making the
(36:15):
assumption that they would alllive in that village in Okinawa
for the rest of their life.
Obviously, the miracle oftravel, of getting in a plane
and getting off a plane in adifferent country, it has all
these amazing benefits.
But, yeah, it's given us thisability to leave our home, to
(36:36):
leave our village, to leave oursuburb, our community, and
hopefully we end up joininganother one.
But, yeah, all the benefits oftechnology have also maybe come
at a price.
Did they mention anything aboutLife Mission?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
They didn't particularly mention about life
mission.
It's more like this,contributing to the community.
But in my video, my YouTubevideo, because I did pick up
this topic to present in myYouTube channel and then I added
this mission thing.
You usually for people in thecountryside, you know you cannot
(37:16):
expect them to have a specificmission in their life and so on,
but for someone like me or many, many other people in the world
, probably have a certainmission or certain kind of
vision in their life that maybethey feel they want to do
something to the world.
That's why they were born,that's why they came here for.
(37:39):
And then that kind of missioncould be artistic mission, like
if you're a musician or writer,maybe writing some specific
piece of work or creatingcertain music or even performing
or, you know, drawing somepicture or some mission could be
more political or environmental, or even health.
Health promoting health can beyour mission too, and in your
(38:01):
case, maybe spreading theconcept of ikigai to the western
world would be your mission.
So something slightly biggerthan just serving your local
community, which is fine too.
I mean, it's very preciousthings to serve the community.
But those of us who live in anurban area or don't have a
(38:23):
specific community, then thiskind of life mission can be your
ikigai and in fact, this canbecome the very motivation to
keep going.
I mean, for me this is the case.
I mean the ikigai biohacking orthe ikigai diet spreading.
This is my ikigai and thereforethat's why I exercise every day
(38:46):
, or that's why I am carefulwith my diet, because I need to
be healthy to continue doingthis work.
So this is the goal.
The diet or exercise is themean to achieve this goal, but
this is the core motivation.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Well, as you know, I support your mission, satyaki,
and that's yeah, you're right,that is.
My mission is to spread Ikigai,but obviously that involves
learning, researching, talkingto people like you and getting
it.
I guess, getting it right andaccurate and being respectful.
So I also think it has thisrole dynamic.
(39:26):
It's not just a mission, it's arole of service, contribution
and maybe it's just now, as youmentioned, we can reach more
people by location or bytechnology, and the role still
exists in a small community.
Maybe it doesn't have aswidespread impact, but still has
(39:49):
meaningful impact within thatcommunity.
But there's also this idea ofyou believing what you do is
unique to you to some degree,maybe to you know an incredible
degree where you're a uniqueartist or you know a unique
sports person or an entrepreneur.
But it can also be a job, acommon job you do uniquely.
(40:12):
Or, as we're doing, we've kindof carved out our own niche and
role with me specifically with,I guess, ikigai in general, but
you're kind of more niche withhealth and diet and longevity
related to ikigai.
Yeah, we get this incrediblesense of uh, I'm sure both of us
(40:34):
have this incredible sense ofsatisfaction.
You know, we're using ourcreativity to communicate, to
teach others, to market, to getour message across.
So we'll we'll embed that videoif you want your YouTube video
on your summary of the summitand where you mention personal
(40:55):
mission.
So, as I mentioned before, I'vealways been hesitant about
relating Ikigai to longevitybecause it can romanticize the
concept.
I see many posts on LinkedIndescribing ikigai as the secret
to longevity and happiness.
Ikigai can definitely encourageself-care behaviors what we've
talked about today exercise,eating well and it definitely
(41:17):
includes social connection.
But because ikigai issubjective and it's totally
personal, I have this hesitationof saying I have this
hesitation of saying, oh yes, itguarantees longevity, or
something like that.
You and I don't mind having abeer every now and then, which
is a source of ikigai for us.
We shared a beer, I think, inInuyama, and some people enjoy
(41:42):
being alone.
My wife really enjoys beingalone and doing her crafts and
just relaxing.
So what are your thoughts onthis?
How strong do you think theikigai longevity connection is?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
well, um, so ikigai is not only for the longevity.
So yeah, I see what you mean.
I mean because it wasintroduced in dan buter's talk,
that because Okinawans haveikigai and then therefore it
became part of the longevitything In Japan.
Ikigai was never thought to bethe factor of longevity up until
(42:23):
Dan Buettner's discovery.
So now they are talking aboutikigai, but I think this is
partly influenced by DanBuettner's discovery.
So now they are talking aboutikigai, but I think this is
partly influenced by DanBuettner's Blue Zone
presentation.
So I think even this KyoTangosummit too, they included ikigai
because in the last 10 years orso, many people are researching
(42:43):
about ikigai as a factor oflongevity.
But ikigai in general is notonly for longevity, it's just
something we we have in japanthat.
So there's so many dimensions,so many meanings to it, so just
like a daily joy, and I thinkdaily joy and pleasure are
(43:05):
probably most common part ofikigai.
When you ask what is yourikigai, many people say oh, you
know, drinking beer is my ikigai, or morning coffee is my ikigai
, or spending some time with mygrandchildren is ikigai, and so
on, and so it's more like a sortof everyday, kind of small
thing.
It's not a big thing.
(43:31):
So often in the West ikigai ispresented to be like sort of
significant kind of thing, butit's nothing special for
Japanese people, it's just aregular word that we use, and
also for longevity it isdifficult to relate to.
I mean, diet is very clear Likeyou need to have this diet.
(43:52):
Exercise is clear too.
You can kind of scientificallymeasure you are doing good for
your body and so on.
But ikigai is something youcannot measure whether it is
contributing to your longevityor even health or not.
It's something so personal, sosubjective, but in some ways
maybe it is the driving force ofeverything.
(44:15):
Actually you do.
That's possible, but it may notbe doing anything to the health
of us.
So it's something that youcannot measure.
So it's very difficult to saythat Ikigai is the factor of
longevity, other than kind ofmaking this kind of definition
that Samit did like, wanting tocontribute to others or feeling
(44:40):
of being needed by others.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, that's all interesting.
So I mean, I think ultimatelyit's been a good thing that dan
butner related ikigai tolongevity, because it's it's
made more people aware ofprobably eating a better diet,
exercising and having socialconnections, and it's also maybe
made japanese realize, oh, whatwas normal for us is not normal
(45:08):
for the rest of the world.
And so, yeah, maybe we need tomake sure we maintain this type
of lifestyle and not end upeating like a Western diet,
which unfortunately Japanese are.
You know, they're eating morefast food, junk food.
I remember that, like the superbreakfast of Japanese, it'd be
like brown rice, pickles, misosoup, maybe izakana, like
(45:31):
grilled fish, and when I staywith friends in Japan they don't
eat that anymore.
They're eating fried egg, a bitof salad, thick white toast.
I'm like, oh, you know, whatare you guys doing?
And then I think there are manyscales that try to measure
ikigai, but they measure it in acertain context.
(45:52):
So even like the ikigai 9,which has become quite common,
it's really measuring ikigai 9.
Yeah, the ikigai 9 scale.
I'll, I'll send you a link toit.
Oh yeah, okay, it was developedby Japanese researchers, but
basically it has nine items andthree of them relate to
(46:14):
contribution.
So you know, am I contributingto others?
Am I needed, basically?
And then another three itemsrelate to, basically, personal
growth.
So I want to learn new things,I want to have a mentally rich
life.
And then the other three itemsrelate to inner states.
(46:35):
So how often am I happy?
And yeah, they actuallymentioned, say, shinteki yutori
say shinteki yutori yeah, howmuch mental space do I have?
So there are scales.
There's quite a few scales.
There's something also calledthe Ikigai Kan scale.
There's the Ikigai four-factorscale, but they're using the
(46:57):
scale to try and define Ikigai.
So even the scales, they're alldifferent.
Some are similar and some arequite different, but it would be
trying to measure health,wellness, well-being and
positive psychology all at once,which is just, you know, pretty
(47:20):
be a lot of questions and someof the scales are quite long.
There's 16, and some of thescales are quite long.
They're 16 measures, 16statements.
But anyway, going back totoday's theme about longevity,
so in short, the KiotangaSummit's Declaration on
(47:40):
Longevity underscores a holisticapproach combining a primarily
plant and fish-based fiber-richdiet, practical and community
focused physical activity,robust social connections and,
most importantly, a profoundsense of purpose and
contribution to one's community.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
So it's almost promoting that we go back to
living in communities yeah, like, uh, this is what we call the
satoyama lifestyle in thejapanese countryside.
So going back to the old styleJapanese country life is very
much this.
So, yeah, going back to thecommunity and then you naturally
(48:18):
end up having a good diet andthen you move naturally, so you
end up exercising.
And then one thing I noticedabout the exercise is so now, in
today's biohacking world, whenpeople think of exercise, most
people think of going to the gym.
I mean, strength training isrecommended so much these days.
(48:39):
Many people do some kind ofresistance training and also
zone two, aerobic exercise,which is like jogging or walking
can be, but it's morestructured and there are lots
and lots of methods to improveyour health.
But while the one they practicein kyo tango and nothing so
(48:59):
special, very basic activity.
But one thing I noticed wasmany of them do it together.
So they have a different sportsfacilities in Chiotango area,
but I don't know, but lots andlots of like a ground and
gymnasiums are open to public,so and then probably there they
(49:19):
offer, like a table tennisclasses or, you know, swimming
classes and so on.
So they get together and do thesport with others.
So there are kind ofinteractions involved, and that
is becoming their ikigai too, todo their sports with their
friends their ikigai.
So that's a unique thing aboutJapanese approach compared to
(49:43):
the Western this going to thegym and doing a specific
exercise regimen.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Yeah, yeah, significant and important point.
It almost sounds like theexercise is also an e-bash or
like a community, a place tobelong.
And you're right.
Most people go to the gym andyou know if they're young guys
they might go with a friend andspot each other and they're
(50:13):
always on the bench press seeinghow much they can lift or see
much how they I mean probablythat's the ikigai too.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
I mean I can see that like showing their muscle.
Is the ikigai that used to?
Speaker 2 (50:24):
be my ikigai when I was a teenager.
So hopefully as we get older weget a little bit wiser.
But yeah, I mean, exercise inany form is great, but this
added element of community andkeeping it not so strict and not
so, you know, there's a thingwhen you go to the gym there's
this element of stress like, oh,I have to improve and I have to
(50:46):
lift more and I have to recordeverything and get out my app
and track this and track thatand it probably does.
I don't know more mental harmthan good when it becomes
stressful.
But this idea of communities Imean even for me.
I know I lack community,community.
(51:07):
And here I am trying to preachIkigai and I spend a lot of time
in this room.
So even recently I'd spent fourdays learning about coaching in
person and it was great and I,you know, I sort of made some
new friends and there was funand playfulness to the group
work and had these meaningfulconnections.
(51:29):
And now that's all gone and I'msort of back in my room focused
on work and of course, you knowI get to interview people like
you and have a good time.
But I do think community isreally important and I think
it's also the future of mybusiness and so, as you know,
I'm thinking about returning toJapan to do more in-person
(51:51):
retreats, and so you were partof my first Ikigai retreat last
year.
So this is one of my sources ofIkigai, which is obviously
sharing Ikigai with othersthrough connection in Japan with
my Japanese network and friends, which includes you.
So you were a special guestpresenter on my Ikigai retreat
(52:12):
and you facilitated an Ikigaidiet cooking class and you gave
this incredible insightfulspeech on diet, health and
Ikigai.
You did it off the cuff, youhad no notes, you just sort of
gathered.
We all sat down and you juststarted talking.
It blew us away and then, yeah,it was really captivating and
(52:33):
everyone really enjoyed that andthe cooking class was great.
You made miso soup using yourhomemade cultivated miso and we
had natto salad, so that wasinteresting.
So, yeah, such that wasfantastic.
So thank you for being a partof that no, thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
I mean I enjoyed myself too.
I mean you know it was reallygreat.
Uh, to you know, meet um, yourparticipant there, and then, to
you know, get to share mycooking method of you know,
making natto salad and miso soupand so on.
And also they were so eager tolearn.
They asked me so many questions.
(53:12):
So I was very happy to you knowanswer those questions, because
I get to know what kind ofthing they were interested in or
what kind of thing comes intotheir mind when they try to
practice those health measuresat home, like what are the sort
of things they get confused andthings.
So it was a very great learningto understand what people
(53:37):
wanted, what people areinterested in, and especially
because they came from differentcountries too, so how different
regions have differentenvironment and different
limitations too.
I mean, especially when youtalk about Japanese ingredients,
some regions they're notaccessible, so you need to think
(53:57):
of alternative ingredients ineach region and so on.
So it was great learning for meand I really enjoyed
interacting with them too.
So, yeah, thank you for givingme the opportunity to do that
presentation, not at all and, asyou know, I'm inviting you back
for the retreat again thisNovember.
(54:19):
Yeah, this autumn.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
So, if anyone's listening and you want to meet
Sachi in person and I mean, Icall Sachi Sachi because he's a
friend, so but yeah, and learnabout healthy eating and diet in
this holistic context, becauseyou talk about many things,
you're very knowledgeable and,yeah, I wish you had more
(54:43):
exposure because I think you'reintroducing a unique angle on
health and it's not, it's not afad and you, you have no ego and
you're not self.
You know you're not trying toself promote yourself.
You're, you're always servingthe listener, but I'd like to
promote you, sachi.
So you've written several books.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
You've written Ikigai Died.
I think you've written a bookcalled Ihi Gai and Biohacking,
and what was your written bookon Nato?
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Live Wiser, Not Smarter.
Nato Unleashed is a book aboutNato and also the Live Wiser,
Not Smarter.
This is the newest book, theLive Wiser, Not Smarter.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
And that's the one you gave my participants at the
retreat.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Yes, that's right.
That's right, yes.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
Actually, it's a really good book because it's an
easy read, it's concise andkind of gets to the most
important points quickly.
So another aspect is havingsomething to look forward to of
Ikigai.
Yeah, so we have the retreat tolook forward to, Right?
So where can people find you?
What's the best website?
Speaker 1 (55:57):
The website is the Ikigai Diet.
It's called theikigaidietcom.
So theikigaidietcom has basicinformation about the ikigai
diet, but I haven't uploaded theblog there recently, but I
upload YouTube twice a week.
So if you have a YouTubeplatform, then you go to the
(56:22):
ikigai diet channel.
The ikigai diet channel is mychannel.
Then you can find lots ofvideos relating to health and
longevity.
It's called the Ikigai DietChannel.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
We'll link to that.
So we'll link to your website,We'll link to the channel.
We'll include the notes on that.
Mnemonic device Mamoga.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Right Mago wa yasashii koku.
Speaker 2 (56:47):
Mago wa yasashii koku .
Mago wa yasashii koku.
And yeah, we'll keep everyoneupdated on the retreat.
So if people want to join,visit ikigai-tribecom for more
details.
And thank you so much, yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Inuyama is a great place too.
It has a famous castle.
It's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, you're right, theretreat's hosted away from all
the tourist spots.
We have it at a lovely locationin Inuyama and we get special
access to temples to people suchas Sachi and it's more like a
it's not really a retreat.
(57:26):
You know, we're not doing yogaand doing day spas, we're
learning.
We're learning and living andexperiencing ikigai through
Japanese culture and throughmeeting Japanese.
So it's going to be great.
So I'm going to do my best,sachi, and hopefully I'll see
you in November for the secondikigai retreat.
Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yes, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (57:49):
Okay, thanks, my friend.
Good to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (57:51):
Okay, thank you.
Thank you too.
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