November 10, 2025 • 49 mins
Ever feel like your mind is running the show—and not in a good way? We sat down with clinical psychologist and author Ross White to unpack psychological flexibility, a practical skill that helps you have difficult thoughts and feelings while still taking the actions that matter. Instead of fighting your inner weather, Ross shows how to bend like a tree: anchored in the moment, willing to feel, and empowered by values and purpose.
Ross breaks down his AWE framework—Anchored, Willing, Empowered—and connects it to a vivid tree metaphor: roots for presence, a trunk that sways with emotion, and a crown that gathers energy for growth. We explore TEAM WIN (Treat Emotions As Messengers, What’s Important Now) so fear, anger, and sadness become signals rather than stop signs. From elite sport to everyday life, Ross explains how to navigate the three motivational modes—get, threat, and reset—so ambition doesn’t slide into burnout and recovery becomes a strategic advantage.
You’ll learn how wonder, gratitude, and compassion act as reset tools, why journaling and mindfulness build meta‑awareness, and how two simple questions can calibrate your effort: Which mode am I in right now, and which AWE skill helps me stay or switch? Ross also offers a timely reframe on meaning: purpose isn’t found, it’s formed. By experimenting with small, values‑based moves, you avoid the arrival fallacy and let multiple purposes evolve over time. Strong intention, light attachment becomes the mantra for sustainable growth.
If you’re ready to branch toward what matters—without breaking—tune in and take notes. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who’s in “always on” mode, and leave a quick review to tell us your favorite reset ritual.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Sometimes it can be easier to be more compassionate
to others than it might be to becompassionate to ourselves.
And there are exercises,techniques that we can use to
develop that self-compassionmuscle.
Doesn't come easy because wehave all kinds of fears that
show up around self-compassion.
But I see self-compassion asthis very active, courageous
(00:20):
willingness to take care ofoneself.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Ross
White, an award-winning clinicalpsychologist who specializes in
supporting the mental health andwell-being of adults working in
high-performance environments,including elite-level athletes
in rugby, football, athletics,and tennis.
He is the author of The TreeThat Bends: How a Flexible Mind
(00:47):
Can Help You Thrive.
Ross is a professor of clinicalpsychology at the Queen's
University Belfast and is thefounding director of Strive to
Thrive, a clinical psychologytraining and consultancy
organization that helpsindividuals and organizations to
thrive.
Welcome to the podcast, Ross.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Thanks for the invite, Nick.
I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Likewise.
So as I mentioned to youearlier, I saw a video of you on
Instagram, and Honor Wim decidedto reach out to you.
And I thought what you weresharing really resonated with
me.
So I thought we would have aninteresting and insightful
conversation.
So thanks again for being opento that idea.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
Pleasure, and I hope I don't disappoint.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
I'm sure you won't.
So in one of your videos, youshared that you were taking a
moment to breathe in, that youhave thoughts as you were
breathing in, and that you werethen breathe out, and those
thoughts don't have you.
And for the most part, ourthoughts control our life, our
attitude, our actions, and ifthey go unchecked, they can
(01:56):
result in false beliefs, evenpain.
So our thoughts do get thebetter of us.
How can we have our thoughts nothave us?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
A great question.
That's the difference, Isuppose, between living your day
with your thoughts, carryingthose thoughts with you and
drawing on them if and when it'shelpful to do so, and indeed you
choose to do so, versus livinglife through your thoughts and
the extent to which some of thestories that our minds can
(02:26):
generate can influence and colorthe way we experience our
day-to-day lives and the choicesthat we might make.
And I have a great interest inthis concept called
psychological flexibility, andthat can be contrasted with
psychological inflexibility,where we really start to become
quite restricted and influencedby particular themes and stories
(02:50):
that have developed in our mindsover time.
So psychological flexibility isabout helping people to have
difficult thoughts and feelingsand still commit to making
choices that may actually movethem towards discomfort, but
also bring vitality andfulfillment in life.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Nice.
We will definitely dive intopsychological flexibility.
I think it relates to the work Ido.
So we'll move to thoughts toemotions, because you had
another video on emotions usingan acronym called TEAM WIN.
Would you like to touch on that?
SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
So I have a great interest in the messaging that
emotions might actually carrywithin them.
And when we experience difficultor challenging emotions, the
urge can be to try to suppress,avoid, or indeed get rid of
those challenging and difficultemotions.
(03:49):
Perhaps it might be fear orsadness or anger or frustration.
And I'm interested in thefunction that those emotions
might actually be serving.
And sometimes in the rush to getrid or avoid emotions, we might
actually be missing out on theimportant function that those
emotions serve.
(04:09):
So team stands for treatemotions as messengers.
Try to understand what it isthat's perhaps important enough
for you to be experiencing thatstrength of emotional reaction.
And then what's important now isabout, well, now you're
recognizing that you'reexperiencing the emotion and
(04:29):
that you can hold that emotionin this moment.
How do you choose to moveforward?
What's important in terms of thenext step that you want to take?
And with that, I think it'shelpful to be oriented towards
our values.
How is it we want to be in theworld?
What qualities do we want toshine through and how we are
(04:50):
with ourselves and how we arewith other people?
And of course, what's importantnow also speaks to a sense of
purpose.
So, what is it in terms of ourNorth Star or guiding lights
that we want to be committed tostaying true to as we take the
next choices?
SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
I think it really highlights the importance of
presence and being aware.
And maybe when we have thatawareness, we can question our
thoughts or our emotions, andthink, oh, why am I so anxious
at the moment?
So, yeah, would presence play alot in the work that you do?
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
It does.
Yeah.
Psychological flexibility, as Iconceptualize it, I'm really
drawing and I've been influencedby an approach called acceptance
and commitment therapy, oracceptance and commitment
training.
Act in short.
Psychological flexibility isreally about three core elements
that I write about in the treethat bends.
(05:49):
And I actually draw on theanatomy of a tree to help
readers to remember these threeelements of psychological
flexibility.
So maybe I can start by justsaying a little about that uh
proverb, the Tanzanian proverb.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
So before we dive into that, can I also touch on
one more video you made?
And this actually relates to thetree metaphor, but you have this
wonderful video on choices.
And that we're either branchingtowards or branching away from
acting effectively.
And I think this obviously tiesinto either our thoughts and
(06:27):
emotions.
I'm sure this obviously allrelates to psychological
flexibility and what you'regoing into with the tree that
bends.
But yeah, I thought I'd startwith these videos first, then
dive deeper into your work.
But I love that expression, oh,like, yeah, we're branching
either towards or away.
So yeah, would you like tobriefly touch on that and then
we'll go uh much deeper?
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Yeah, so broadly speaking, in the choices that we
make, and we make lots ofchoices through our day, our
choices can be influenced in oneof two directions.
And one direction might be aboutbeing motivated to choose to
move towards acting in line withour values, and that could be
(07:10):
about doing thingscompassionately, assertively,
wisely, sympathetically.
We can choose to move towardsthose qualities of action in the
choices that we make.
And that's that idea of actingeffectively that you mentioned.
So we can be branching towardsthose values and indeed a sense
(07:30):
of purpose, which I'm sure we'llcome to as well.
Or we can end up branching away,away from potential discomfort
or distress or doubt or fearthat could arise as we maybe put
ourselves forward into anunfamiliar or novel situation.
And if we are branching awayfrom the discomfort and that
(07:53):
sense of unease that can ariseas we try something new or
different, or we put ourselvesout there, we can invariably
take ourselves away from oursense of purpose, away from
acting effectively, and withthat away from perhaps being
true to our personal values.
So, yes, that's that idea ofeither branching towards versus
(08:15):
branching away in the choicesthat we make.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
I'm really big on value alignment.
I think we also know with ourfeelings or our intuition, and
then our mind seems to getinvolved and tell us otherwise.
So we do live each day with allthese choices, these emotions,
thoughts.
And I guess we have our gooddays, our bad days, our
(08:39):
challenging days.
And this would lead to this ideathat you write about being
helpful, and that'spsychological flexibility.
So would you like to sort ofbriefly define that and touch on
why that's important?
And then obviously that relatesto the title of your book, which
is a lovely title, The Tree ThatBends.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
So psychological flexibility can be defined as
the ability to have difficultthoughts and feelings and either
maintain our behavior or indeedchange our behavior in service
of connecting with our personalvalues and our sense of purpose.
So it's this idea of havingdifficult thoughts and feelings
(09:24):
and still committing to doingwhat matters.
That's ultimately psychologicalflexibility.
So a number of years ago, I wasworking in sub-Saharan Africa
and I heard a Tanzanian proverb,the wind does not break the tree
that bends.
And I just thought, wow, interms of a powerful visual
metaphor and uh a metaphor fromnature, and I think nature can
(09:47):
be a great teacher.
We have this idea of this treethat can bend in the wind and
persists and endures in spite ofthe stresses and strains that it
experiences.
And that visual metaphor stayedwith me.
And I thought it captured thisnotion of psychological
flexibility very well.
(10:07):
And I had been working for anumber of years in
high-performance environments,and I had been struck by how
people can really berelentlessly relentless.
Now being relentless andtenacious are certainly
qualities that can help youachieve, but they can also lead
to burnout.
And I just wanted to write abook about the role that
(10:29):
psychological flexibility canplay in helping people to both
take care of themselves and takecare of business.
So the tree that bends is abouthelping people to both perform
well and feel well.
These two things don't need tobe in opposition.
So I use the tree metaphor andthe anatomy of the tree to
(10:50):
represent three importantcomponents of psychological
flexibility.
So the roots of the treerepresent the tree's ability to
remain anchored in its location,and we need to be anchored in
the here and now in which ourlife is unfolding, as opposed to
doing too much mental timetravel to the past or to the
(11:10):
future and missing out on thehere and now.
So we need to be anchored.
The trunk of the tree needs tobe willing to sway in the wind
to absorb its energy.
We need to be willing torecognize that our minds can be
the story-generating machine andwilling to turn towards rather
than away from the emotions thatshow up with those stories.
(11:32):
And finally, there's the crownof the tree, which represents
the tree's capacity to get thepower it needs to grow and
develop.
So the crown of the tree is thebranches and the leaves where
photosynthesis happens.
It captures the sun's energy,it's energized by that energy,
and it produces the fuel.
(11:52):
We too need to be empowered,empowered by our sense of
purpose, our personal values,and take pragmatic action in
line with our purpose and ourpersonal values.
So anchored, willing, empoweredare the three elements of
psychological flexibility.
And they spell out the acronymAwe just so that people can
remember it.
Anchored, willing, andempowered.
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
Beautiful metaphor because some trees do capture
awe or put you in a state ofawe.
And also to quote from your bookimagine being grounded like a
tree with deep roots, yetempowered to respond flexibly to
life's challenges.
So he has to have thisfoundation of strength, but we
(13:05):
can sway and continue to grow.
And obviously, also we caneither bear fruit or leaves or
even be a place of refuge forpeople or birds or stuff like
that, or maybe koalas inAustralia.
So I think it's very helpfulthis metaphor.
So the roots is about beinganchored, the trunk, this
(13:27):
willingness to sway, move,adapt, and with the crown uh
empowered.
Uh, you also use the metaphor ofa tree to talk about balancing
or the balancing of life andthriving.
So do you want to go into thatas well?
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
Yeah, great.
If we extend that metaphor ofthe tree, we can think about how
trees change their functioningacross the year cycle.
So trees in spring and summerget busy, they're in full
foliage, and they are doingtheir utmost to capture the
(14:01):
sun's energy.
They're being very productive,creating the fuel that it needs
to grow and develop.
And I like to think about thatas get mode, right?
It's very active, it's very muchabout striving to capture that
energy.
And I think we have our springand summer, we have our get
mode.
We are motivated to work towardsachievement, we have ambitions,
(14:24):
and it's important for us to setgoals and to work towards those
goals.
So, like trees, we have our getmode.
Now, trees also need to berobust and to invest energy in
protecting themselves, so theywill have mechanisms that
protect them from buginfestations, so they can use
their sap, for example, as a wayof protecting them from bugs,
(14:47):
and they also need to bevigilant to fungi, which can
infect the bark and can indeedkill a tree.
So trees need to invest energyin surviving.
Trees have their threat mode aswell, and we too have our threat
mode.
It's important for us to respondto risk and danger.
Unfortunately, our minds can gointo overdrive and there can be
(15:10):
a lot of false positives interms of the threats that we
might pick up.
And we have these imaginal mindsthat can generate potential
threats that could come furtherdown the line.
And because we can look back intime, we can also find ourselves
full of regret and remorse aboutthings that maybe didn't go so
well, so our threat system canget overactive.
(15:30):
Now, finally, trees in autumnand winter drop their leaves,
they go into a period ofdormancy, particularly deciduous
trees.
That's a time for reset, andtrees need that reset.
If I was to bring an oak saplingindoors, it wouldn't thrive, it
would die because it's not goingto get the natural signals it
(15:52):
needs for its reset mode becauseof the artificial light inside.
So trees need reset mode, and Ithink we need our reset mode.
We need to take care ofourselves.
And unfortunately, in modernlife, our get and threat modes,
I think, are very highly active,and our reset mode can be the
poor cousin.
(16:13):
So we need to blend theseefforts between get, threat, and
reset, which are about striving,surviving, and reviving,
respectively.
So yeah, we need to bepurposeful in our reset.
And it's the anatomy of a tree,its ability to be anchored,
willing, and empowered thatallow it to move flexibly
between those three motivationalmodes.
(16:36):
And I think psychologicalflexibility can help us move
flexibly between those threemotivational modes of get,
threat, and reset.
SPEAKER_00 (16:45):
This resonates with me.
I think in Australia, wherewe're either blessed or cursed
with having summer at the startof the year, I know it motivates
me to be quite ambitious.
And sometimes I do see ambitionas a double-edged sword, you
know.
You have all this excitement,you see this opportunity, and
then you start to think, oh, I'mgonna do this or that.
(17:06):
And then if you're not careful,we kind of get into this burnout
state.
So do you think people are toomuch focused on the get mode?
SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
I think we can be forgiven for being too focused
on the get mode because there'sa lot of cultural messaging
around that.
I I engage with social media,I'm on various streaming social
media platforms.
One thing that strikes me isthat there's a real risk that
(17:38):
those always-on kind of messagesget promoted above others, and
obviously algorithms can drivewhat we see, and my experience
may not be the same as yours orsomebody else's, but I'm
conscious that there has been alot of focus on this notion of
having to almost sacrifice yourown well-being on the altar of
(18:01):
success.
It's kind of like a the 5 a.m.
club.
You know, if you're not ifyou're not getting up at 4:45
a.m.
and uh, you know, hitting therunning track at 5, then in some
way you're feeling.
So I am a bit concerned aboutthat.
It's almost a compelling sell,it's a sexy sell, dare I say,
(18:23):
that some of those morethoughtful, considered, and dare
I say, less kind of drivenattributes don't get celebrated
quite as much.
You know, hey, rest well doesn'tmaybe resonate as strongly as
some sort of uh catchphraseslike stay hard, which is David
Goggins, right?
His his kind of chat to camera.
(18:46):
Um so yes, there can be a bit ofuh a skewed perception of what
qualities will actually allowyou to sustain your efforts in
the long term.
It tends to focus on one end ofthe extreme and maybe not enough
on those other.
Also really importantattributes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
There's a Japanese concept called Yutori, and it's
this idea of the gap or space,and it's throughout their
culture, so in theirarchitecture or as a
psychological concept, or evenin their music, there's
intentional pauses or gaps.
And in Japan, they don't haveawkward silences where we tend
(19:29):
to have this idea of an awkwardsilencing conversation.
Do you think we need to spendmore time in reset mode?
And how can we give this gift toourselves when we're surrounded
by a world of distraction orthis idea we have to be crushing
it like David Goggins everymorning?
SPEAKER_01 (19:48):
This gap mode, when we are really quite driven or
thinking that we should be doingmore, it can tip into threat
mode because we're left to thinkI'm not enough.
And there is this insidiousmovement towards us defining
ourselves not on who we are, butwhat we do.
(20:15):
And if we're not beingproductive enough, if we're not
being successful, then who arewe?
And rather than us thinkingabout ourselves in terms of what
we've done, what we do, maybeit's more about how we are, how
we are with ourselves, how weare with others, how we are with
our planet.
(20:36):
So get mode and threat mode, youcan find yourself flipping from
get mode into threat mode.
And yeah, I do think we need tobe more purposeful in activating
that reset mode.
And there are different waysthat we can do that.
And in the book, I talk abouttwo different strategies, one
(20:58):
being um momentary moves,momentary moves.
Those are moves we can do inmoments, right?
And the way we can access thereset mode in momentary ways is
to draw on self-transcendentemotions.
So there are threeself-transcendent emotions that
I think are particularly helpfulfor reset mode.
(21:20):
One is wonder, and you alludedto this, Nick, that idea of
getting into nature, connectingwith something that is more vast
than us.
And I'm thinking here, forexample, of forest bathing,
which I know is is popular inJapan, but it could be about
standing under a night sky, astar-filled sky.
(21:42):
We were blessed in the northernhemisphere last year with Aurora
Borealis, northern lights, whichwas fantastic, but that kind of
sense of wonder that itinspires, that sense of
connecting with something much,much more vast than ourselves.
So connecting with nature can bea great way of activating that
(22:03):
wonder.
Green and blue spaces, asthey're referred to, have been
shown to be hugely helpful forour mental health and
well-being, whether that's acoastal path that you walk on,
or by a lake, or indeed in awooded area or forest.
The second self-transcendentemotion is gratitude.
So gratitude is about thatrecognition of something we've
(22:26):
reason to be thankful for.
It could be an experience, itcould be an interaction with a
pet, it could be something thatsomeone has done for us.
We can take an opportunity toexpress that gratitude.
So I could thank you, Nick, forsincerely inviting me on this
podcast.
I'm very grateful for that.
So I can express that gratitudeto you, and that can be
(22:49):
conducive to my own well-being,to know that I have been
authentic and true to myself inexpressing how I feel.
But it's potentially alsohelpful for you because you know
you could easily have chosen tobranch away and not contacted
me, and hopefully you getsomething from that too.
But equally, gratitude has beenshown to be conducive for a
(23:10):
reset and our well-being.
And we don't need to necessarilyexpress it outwardly.
I could have a gratitudejournal, and this evening I
could write down three thingsthat I'm grateful for.
Oh, yeah, that conversation withNick Kemp this morning was
really, really good.
And that can be really helpfulfor our well-being because we're
taking stock, we are savouringthe emotions that showed up as
(23:34):
we did what we did.
So gratitude is an importantopportunity for reset.
And finally, then there'scompassion.
And compassion is defined as anability to empathize and
recognize suffering in anotheror in oneself, and importantly,
being motivated to do somethingto alleviate that suffering.
(23:58):
And sometimes it can be easierto be more compassionate to
others than it might be to becompassionate to ourselves.
And there are exercises,techniques that we can use to
develop that self-compassionmuscle.
It doesn't come easy because wehave all kinds of fears that
show up around self-compassion.
I'll be letting myself off thehook, I'll be going easy on
(24:21):
myself, or I don't deserve it,or it's self-indulgent, right?
Or it's weak.
But I see self-compassion asthis very active, courageous
willingness to take care ofoneself.
So those are the momentarymoves, and then there are bold
moves for resets, and those arelarger commitments, perhaps
(24:43):
counterintuitive.
Um, for example, I took a12-month career break from
working at the university afterfinishing the book to take some
time to realign with my purpose,my personal values.
And yeah, that wasn't easy.
It kind of felt like I wastaking the food off the gas in
some ways, and that can bescary.
But I'm grateful that I did havethat opportunity and that I was
(25:06):
able to take it.
So momentary moves, bold movesfor resets.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
This is all resonating.
I actually think in the future,spending time in nature will
become like a pillar of healthbecause we had diet and exercise
for so long, and then sleeprecently came into it.
Like getting a good night'ssleep apparently is like the
number one thing to do for yourhealth.
And there's all this researchand many books coming out.
(25:31):
But we don't seem to talk aboutnature as something as a daily
practice, whether you just go toyour local park or if you're
fortunate enough to besurrounded by a forest or go by
the seaside.
So I'm thinking when you go outin nature, you just feel it.
You breathe it in, you feelbetter.
Yet we don't seem to spendenough time outdoors.
(25:53):
And then even when we'reoutdoors, we might not be in
nature.
So we're very much stuck in thisartificial world.
And then the gratitude piece isvery important, especially in
Japan.
I wrote a book on somethingcalled rolefulness.
Oddly, the term was coined by aJapanese professor, and there
(26:13):
were three elements to it.
They almost sound like toobasic.
So we're greeting peopleproperly, having conversations
like we're doing, and thenexpressing gratitude.
You can do this really in any uhrelationship, any situation.
I think if gratitude's notexchanged or expressed unless
(26:35):
you're not a very nice person,you kind of feel off.
There's something missing.
There is this urge.
I guess compassion is reallybeing present, not just for
yourself, but for someone elseand what they're going through.
Obviously, we have to getthrough all this uh
self-criticism before we caneven take on being compassionate
for ourselves.
(26:55):
But I think this also allrelates back to what you earlier
mentioned, acceptance andcommitment therapy.
So, how does that all tie in topsychological flexibility?
SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
As I mentioned, uh alluded to this briefly, that
the anatomy of the tree allowsit to move flexibly between
those three modes and get thethreat and the reset.
I would say that psychologicalflexibility is the key
ingredient that allows us toeither stay in a particular
(27:28):
motivational mode if it's inservice of doing what matters to
us and it's consistent with ourpersonal values, or indeed
switching in to one of thoseother motivational modes because
the context requires us to doso.
Unfortunately, in life, we canfind ourselves being hemmed into
being one-trick ponies.
(27:50):
Our workplaces can, for example,celebrate and reinforce
particular characteristics andqualities and traits that we
might have, and that can be veryhelpful.
But those same traits that arehelpful in a boardroom may not
be that helpful in the kitchenor the family living room.
(28:11):
So you've got to be able toflexibly move between these
different modes of operating,depending on the context that we
find ourselves in.
And the book really culminatesin the final chapter with a
two-phase process.
And the two-phase process issimply two main questions.
(28:33):
So the first question is well,ask yourself what motivational
mode are you in right now?
I think that's a great questionto ask through the day.
Am I in get threat or resetmode?
And within that question, it'shelpful to ask yourself, well,
what are the benefits of beingin this mode right now?
And there may well be someimportant benefits.
(28:54):
You could be working towards adeadline, right?
And get mode is is helping youum move towards that.
The second sub question withinthat is what are the drawbacks
of being in this motivationalmode in this context?
So just being explicit withyourself about well, what are
the potential pitfalls?
(29:16):
And finally, within thatquestion, it's where am I on the
sustainability question?
You know, and that is can Imaintain my current pace in this
mode?
I think you want to be on theright side of maybe in how you
answer that question.
So let me explain that.
Arguably, if you're saying, andthis is drawing from sporting
(29:39):
analogy, it's actually aquestion that time trialists
will ask themselves in cycleraces.
They'll ask, well, is my currentpace um sustainable?
And the argument is that if theanswer is yes, you're not maybe
pushing yourself hard enough.
Okay, that's interesting.
And if the answer is no, thenthe game's a bogey.
(30:02):
You've probably pushed yourselftoo hard.
So you need to reel back on it abit.
And the argument within thismetaphor in cycling is that you
want to be in the maybe zone.
Maybe is my current pacesustainable.
So you're kind of at that pointwhere you're working hard and
you can sustain that effort inthe long run.
(30:25):
There's an openness to considerthat that's still going to be.
Possible.
Well, in life, I think we needto ensure we're on the right
side of maybe.
You know, you don't want to beon the wrong side.
And if you're on the wrong side,if it's a clear no thing, you're
going to have to explore othermodes and maybe take other uh
steps to ensure that you getadequate support or help to get
(30:48):
the work done.
So then the next question is howcan I bring my psychological
flexibility skills to help meeither stay in this zone or
navigate away from it?
What can I do to be anchored,willing, and empowered?
So basically it's about where amI?
What motivational mode am I in?
(31:08):
Okay.
And then how can I use mypsychological flexibility skills
of anchored, willing, andempowered to either stay in this
mode or to switch to another.
SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
So presence keeps coming back to my mind, like,
oh, we must be so present to beable to work out.
Yeah, are we in the maybe, thegood side of maybe?
I like how it's maybe, it's notsome cliched, I'm in the zone.
But that's true.
Like you wouldn't have absolutecertainty if you're, let's say,
(31:39):
doing a time trial.
If it's long enough, I guesspace matters, energy.
If you've gone out too hard, youthink, okay, well, yeah, I'm not
going to do well in this race.
But these questions areimportant.
I do have this question, and I'mkind of scared to ask it because
I think we're living in thisworld of distraction, and if
(32:00):
we're trying to be psychologicalflexible, do you think that's
getting harder?
I mean, I I know you work withathletes, but for people in
general who aren't, let's say,driven for specific goals and
relentless in their training andgoal achievement, with phones
and entertainment on tap now.
(32:22):
Is it harder to be psychologicalflexible?
Assuming people know theconcept, which might be the
first total as well.
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
Yeah.
Let's just begin by saying ourattentional resource does need
to cycle.
There are going to be timeswhere our attention does need to
be laser focused, and we need toreally allow ourselves time and
opportunity to do a task or tocommit to a practice or be where
(32:53):
we are.
And then there are going to betimes where we need to refresh
or restore that attention.
And do you know what?
Like mobile phones and littlegames and a bit of time on
social media, that can give yourattentional resource a bit of
downtime to go again.
So I'm not going to decry theend of our attentional resource
(33:17):
through technology, but I agreethat we need to be considered
and thoughtful about well, howdo we maintain a level of
awareness and indeed anawareness of our awareness,
meta-awareness, it's sometimescalled, which speaks to the
point that you were alluding to,Nick, that idea of, well, in the
heat of the moment, in the heatof the race, are we going to
(33:42):
have the wherewithal to kind ofhave the ability to ask
ourselves those questions, thosetwo key questions that I alluded
to earlier?
I think we need to be proactivein investing in our
meta-awareness, our ability tobe aware of where our attention
has moved to.
And there are steps that we cantake to do that, to build that
(34:03):
presence that you mentioned,which really speaks to the
anchored element ofpsychological flexibility being
anchored in the here and now.
I think practices likemindfulness or other forms of
meditative practice can be veryhelpful at doing that proactive
work to help us stay centered,to notice when we've moved away
(34:26):
from center so that we can havethe opportunity to choose to
bring ourselves backpotentially.
There's a risk sometimes that,particularly in the West, we
relate to mindfulness practiceor meditation in a reactive way.
It's kind of like a break glasspoint.
You know, it's kind of like, oh,sugar lumps, the stress is
(34:47):
really come on.
I'll do my meditation now.
And it's kind of like sewingyour parachute as you're jumping
out of the plane.
It's kind of like do the workbeforehand, invest proactively
in helping yourself staycentered.
So it does require a level ofdiscipline.
It does require commitment, itdoes require consistency.
(35:07):
And sometimes that's the stuffthat can get washed away in our
frantic lives.
So yeah, being purposeful anddeliberate about making time for
those practices, I think, isimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (35:20):
Do you encourage journaling?
SPEAKER_01 (35:22):
Yeah, journaling would be a practice that I do
talk about in the book and I douse with my clients.
And there's some acronyms thatare very useful for helping to
drive the journaling activity.
So it may be journaling aroundgratitude in particular.
That's an approach that Ioutline in the book.
But equally it could be more ofa reflective framework.
(35:45):
So what happened, what wentwell, what didn't go so well,
what have I learned, those kindof prompts that help people
prepare for other eventualitiesthat they could face in the
future.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
I find it very effective.
From what I can tell, people whotend to journal seem to have
more control of their life.
Not equating success topurposeful, but they also seem
to have more success, likethey're in control, they're very
aware of what they want.
And they'll tell you they've gota bookshelf of dating back from
years ago.
(36:19):
I think a lot of people thinkjournaling's hard, especially if
you can't like me, handwriting'shorrible, you can't spell, and
you you're worried about how itlooks.
But if you let all that go andthink, well, it's only for me.
I'm the only person reading it.
I might not even read it, I'mjust writing it out.
And you free yourself from anyideas that your writing has to
be beautiful or grammaticallycorrect, it becomes very
(36:42):
helpful.
And it would be so helpful maybeto start or end the day with a
few thoughtful questions on howam I feeling, what's my
intention, what can I do formyself or others.
I'm a big believer in that.
And I think journaling alsohelps you with purpose, and you
also touch on purpose.
(37:04):
You talk about how some peoplethink purpose is something you
find or it's your why.
Famously, someone said it's yourwhy, or it's something we find,
but you have a different take onpurpose.
So we'd like to share that.
SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
Allude to this in the book, but I've also written
uh an article recently forPsyche magazine, and it's due to
come out over the next month ortwo.
I talk about how uh to my mindpurpose isn't something we find,
it's something we form.
And I'm concerned about some ofthe messaging around purpose and
(37:42):
this idea that we find itbecause it suggests that we're
in a position of scarcity.
Do you know it's kind of likeit's something I don't yet have?
And I think that's misleading,and I'll say a little more about
why I think it's misleading.
But in addition, it's kind oflike we're waiting, waiting for
(38:02):
this moment of discovery.
Almost like walking around thecorner and you trip over your
purpose.
Oh, there you were all thistime, fully formed, all fleshed
out and ready to get up andrunning with.
I think that just creates asense of frustration when people
are left to think, well, Ihaven't found it.
(38:24):
Um, if there are little crumbsof indication, well, that's not
really it, because it it shouldbe something that's more fully
established and there.
And I think it also breeds asense of despondency, even if
you stumble on something thatdoes feel intrinsically
(38:44):
important.
Uh, if challenges arise, it cangive a sense of uh despondency
that it's not as perfect as itought to have been or should be.
So for me, I think the idea offorming purpose is so much more
helpful.
It's a place of abundance, it'salready there, it's maybe within
(39:07):
you in terms of little thingsthat you've tried that have
brought vitality, enthusiasm,that have lit you up.
Or it could be these ideas thatyou maybe haven't had the chance
yet to operationalize thatexcite you, that give you
enthusiasm, that give you thatsense of vitality.
(39:28):
So I'm quite interested in thatelement.
And when we think about formingsomething, we recognize that
it's a process, it's an ongoingcommitment rather than oh, here
it is, fully fledged, and it'salso highlighting that it
evolves, it can change and shiftover time, and indeed uh maybe
(39:50):
two, three purposes, plural, cancoexist and evolve alongside
each other.
And there's not this sort ofsense of despondency then that
might arise if things start togo awry or or challenges arise.
Well, this is part of whatevolution is about.
(40:12):
Evolution is not necessarilywithout friction.
So I like that idea ofcultivating and forming our
purpose.
They are acorns that are therewithin our lives already.
We don't have to wait for amoment of epiphany.
SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
We do tend to have this all or nothing attitude to
purpose.
In the West, we often equate itto success.
I think you also make thedistinction.
It's like a sense of purpose.
So you can feel it, cultivateit, and feel it in the small and
just doing things well.
You could have severalgoal-driven purposes.
You don't have to have onethat's going to magically
(40:52):
transform your life somehow.
So we have this unrealistic ideaof oh, purpose is sweet spot.
It's the same for icky guy.
Ike guy is sort of appropriatedand misunderstood, and people
think it's this perfect sweetspot you'll eventually get to.
I think there's a word for that,like destination addiction or
something.
SPEAKER_01 (41:12):
And with that, there's also this concept of
arrival fallacy that we can getan achievement, a moment of
success, and we think, well,this is what I've been working
towards.
This is so much my purpose.
And then we're left to feel thissense of emptiness within a
relatively short period of timeafter that joy and the initial
(41:34):
jubilation.
Well, what's life about now, andwhere do I go from here?
So it's not this magical answerthat this outcome that we had
tethered so closely to our senseof purpose.
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
We've either been misled or we've we've bought
into the dream.
Interesting, the Japanese wordfor purpose, the the two kanji
characters can be read as uselife.
And so I think it's a wonderfuldefinition.
It's more about using your lifein a daily context.
How do you want to use yourlife?
And then from that, you'relikely to feel a sense of
(42:08):
purpose rather than alwaysforward looking, thinking I'll
get there someday.
So this actually might move ustowards icky guy.
What makes your life feel worthliving?
So I imagine that's a number ofthings for you, Ross, including
your your work and I thinkoutdoors from what I know of
(42:32):
you.
So yeah, what makes your lifefeel worth living?
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Yeah, that's a great question.
For me, I really have thought alot about this, and my sense of
purpose, I realize, is helpingother people to really get in
touch with their sense ofpurpose.
Now that sounds like a cornyanswer, but there's something
incredibly special to me aboutseeing the lights come on behind
(43:00):
my clients' eyes.
That idea of them lighting up asthey start to reconnect with
what it is that they've becomedistant from or felt that they
ought not to pursue, becausethey've been influenced in
pursuing other objectives andoutcomes, and they're realizing
that they have this opportunityto come back to themselves.
(43:21):
It was that was driving them asopposed to what they they felt
they should do, they ought todo, and we're shooting ourselves
to death.
I should do this, I should dothat.
And so, yeah, I love that workwith clients, really helping
them to connect with their senseof purpose.
Um, so professionally, that'sabsolutely there.
(43:43):
And um yeah, you're right aboutnature, about getting outdoors.
I quite enjoy road cycling aswell.
It's a beautiful way to take ina lot of miles and to really get
to know a landscape.
We're blessed in Ireland with umbeautiful countryside.
I take part in what are calledsportives and their endurance
(44:07):
rides, maybe anything between 90miles up to maybe 160 miles, and
you do them in a day, you doyour training, you do a few
hills, but you also get anopportunity to take in that
countryside, and some of themare along um coastal routes as
well, which is stunning.
I spend a lot of time in thewest of Ireland, um what's
(44:30):
called the Wild Atlantic Way,um, where the Atlantic Ocean
meets the Irish coast, and it'squite a rugged coastline.
So I quite enjoy doing coldwater dipping.
So I was in the Atlanticyesterday, uh, 10 degrees
Celsius, um, just marginally umcooler than the air temperature,
(44:50):
to be honest, at this time ofthe year.
So that's very invigorating.
And you know, you alluded tothis earlier that we can be
clear on what our passions mightbe, what our sense of purpose
could be, and our mind willgenerate so much in terms of
potential resistance and reasonswhy we ought not to, we should
(45:11):
not.
In anticipation of doing things,our minds will get very busy and
active.
And cold water dipping is verymuch like that.
You know, this is gonna be socold, this is gonna be so cold.
And when you're actually in thesituation and you've done it,
the sense of exhilaration andthe reset that that provides,
it's it's amazing.
(45:32):
So it's a good example ofpsychological flexibility and
action, us being willing to showup to the stories, willing to
lean into that trepidation anduh the worry about the the cold
temperature and do it becauseit's important to connect with
nature for me in that way.
Love it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:51):
In my showers with a cold finish, so and it's so easy
now, but the first couple oftimes, so I probably need to
just walk into a cold chatternow if I want to challenge
myself.
SPEAKER_01 (46:05):
Good.
Well, I look I look forward tohearing how that goes.
SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
Don't don't force me to make a video of something,
but uh but it is fascinating howour minds can really something
that can be initially positive.
Our mind can even turn it andsay, Oh, well, things could go
wrong, or is it really for you?
So our mind can be our bestfriend or our worst enemy.
(46:32):
We've got this incredibleability to imagine things,
create things, uh, communicate.
Look, everything around us,someone's created with your
imagination somehow.
Yeah, uh, it can also bedebilitating and create false
fear and hold ourselves back.
But with a flexible mind, we canthrive and be like a tree that
(46:56):
bends.
So it's been a joy to get toknow you, Ross.
So how can people find or reachout to you?
SPEAKER_01 (47:05):
They can reach out on LinkedIn.
My profile name is Dr.
Ross G White.
I'm on Instagram at Ross GWhite, um on X, what was
formerly Twitter, at Ross GWhite as well.
I welcome people reaching outand yeah, check out uh my
(47:26):
webpage as well.
It's www.rosgwhite.com, and thattells you a bit more about the
book and the work that I do, andthere's links to Strive to
Thrive, which is the consultancyorganization that you mentioned
at the top of the show.
So happy to explorecollaborations and learn from
(47:47):
others, and hopefully they get abit of an opportunity to learn
from me too.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
So we'll put all that in the show notes and links
to all those web properties.
So is there any final message orthoughts you'd like to share
with our audience?
SPEAKER_01 (48:04):
Yeah.
Principle that I think has beenreally helpful in my life, and I
hope it will be helpful in thelives of others, is this idea of
strong intention, lightattachment.
So let's commit to being strongin our intention, be true to our
sense of purpose and ourpersonal values, and light in
(48:27):
getting attached to there beingone particular way that we
should do that.
And I think we can sometimes,like moths around a light bulb,
get very attracted to particularways of doing things.
And really, flexibility is aboutrecognizing that there are many
(48:48):
paths to purpose, many paths topersonal values.
And I just encourage people tohold that in mind that strong
intention, light attachmentidea.
SPEAKER_00 (48:59):
Love it.
I think it's a perfect way toend.
So that's a lovely takeaway.
So thank you, Ross, for joiningme in your morning and my
evening.
SPEAKER_01 (49:10):
Pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (49:10):
Thanks for the invite.
My pleasure, mate.
Sometimes it can be easier to be more compassionate
to others than it might be to becompassionate to ourselves.
And there are exercises,techniques that we can use to
develop that self-compassionmuscle.
Doesn't come easy because wehave all kinds of fears that
show up around self-compassion.
But I see self-compassion asthis very active, courageous
(00:20):
willingness to take care ofoneself.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Ross
White, an award-winning clinicalpsychologist who specializes in
supporting the mental health andwell-being of adults working in
high-performance environments,including elite-level athletes
in rugby, football, athletics,and tennis.
He is the author of The TreeThat Bends: How a Flexible Mind
(00:47):
Can Help You Thrive.
Ross is a professor of clinicalpsychology at the Queen's
University Belfast and is thefounding director of Strive to
Thrive, a clinical psychologytraining and consultancy
organization that helpsindividuals and organizations to
thrive.
Welcome to the podcast, Ross.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Thanks for the invite, Nick.
I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Likewise.
So as I mentioned to youearlier, I saw a video of you on
Instagram, and Honor Wim decidedto reach out to you.
And I thought what you weresharing really resonated with
me.
So I thought we would have aninteresting and insightful
conversation.
So thanks again for being opento that idea.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
Pleasure, and I hope I don't disappoint.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
I'm sure you won't.
So in one of your videos, youshared that you were taking a
moment to breathe in, that youhave thoughts as you were
breathing in, and that you werethen breathe out, and those
thoughts don't have you.
And for the most part, ourthoughts control our life, our
attitude, our actions, and ifthey go unchecked, they can
(01:56):
result in false beliefs, evenpain.
So our thoughts do get thebetter of us.
How can we have our thoughts nothave us?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
A great question.
That's the difference, Isuppose, between living your day
with your thoughts, carryingthose thoughts with you and
drawing on them if and when it'shelpful to do so, and indeed you
choose to do so, versus livinglife through your thoughts and
the extent to which some of thestories that our minds can
(02:26):
generate can influence and colorthe way we experience our
day-to-day lives and the choicesthat we might make.
And I have a great interest inthis concept called
psychological flexibility, andthat can be contrasted with
psychological inflexibility,where we really start to become
quite restricted and influencedby particular themes and stories
(02:50):
that have developed in our mindsover time.
So psychological flexibility isabout helping people to have
difficult thoughts and feelingsand still commit to making
choices that may actually movethem towards discomfort, but
also bring vitality andfulfillment in life.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Nice.
We will definitely dive intopsychological flexibility.
I think it relates to the work Ido.
So we'll move to thoughts toemotions, because you had
another video on emotions usingan acronym called TEAM WIN.
Would you like to touch on that?
SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
So I have a great interest in the messaging that
emotions might actually carrywithin them.
And when we experience difficultor challenging emotions, the
urge can be to try to suppress,avoid, or indeed get rid of
those challenging and difficultemotions.
(03:49):
Perhaps it might be fear orsadness or anger or frustration.
And I'm interested in thefunction that those emotions
might actually be serving.
And sometimes in the rush to getrid or avoid emotions, we might
actually be missing out on theimportant function that those
emotions serve.
(04:09):
So team stands for treatemotions as messengers.
Try to understand what it isthat's perhaps important enough
for you to be experiencing thatstrength of emotional reaction.
And then what's important now isabout, well, now you're
recognizing that you'reexperiencing the emotion and
(04:29):
that you can hold that emotionin this moment.
How do you choose to moveforward?
What's important in terms of thenext step that you want to take?
And with that, I think it'shelpful to be oriented towards
our values.
How is it we want to be in theworld?
What qualities do we want toshine through and how we are
(04:50):
with ourselves and how we arewith other people?
And of course, what's importantnow also speaks to a sense of
purpose.
So, what is it in terms of ourNorth Star or guiding lights
that we want to be committed tostaying true to as we take the
next choices?
SPEAKER_00 (05:10):
I think it really highlights the importance of
presence and being aware.
And maybe when we have thatawareness, we can question our
thoughts or our emotions, andthink, oh, why am I so anxious
at the moment?
So, yeah, would presence play alot in the work that you do?
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
It does.
Yeah.
Psychological flexibility, as Iconceptualize it, I'm really
drawing and I've been influencedby an approach called acceptance
and commitment therapy, oracceptance and commitment
training.
Act in short.
Psychological flexibility isreally about three core elements
that I write about in the treethat bends.
(05:49):
And I actually draw on theanatomy of a tree to help
readers to remember these threeelements of psychological
flexibility.
So maybe I can start by justsaying a little about that uh
proverb, the Tanzanian proverb.
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
So before we dive into that, can I also touch on
one more video you made?
And this actually relates to thetree metaphor, but you have this
wonderful video on choices.
And that we're either branchingtowards or branching away from
acting effectively.
And I think this obviously tiesinto either our thoughts and
(06:27):
emotions.
I'm sure this obviously allrelates to psychological
flexibility and what you'regoing into with the tree that
bends.
But yeah, I thought I'd startwith these videos first, then
dive deeper into your work.
But I love that expression, oh,like, yeah, we're branching
either towards or away.
So yeah, would you like tobriefly touch on that and then
we'll go uh much deeper?
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Yeah, so broadly speaking, in the choices that we
make, and we make lots ofchoices through our day, our
choices can be influenced in oneof two directions.
And one direction might be aboutbeing motivated to choose to
move towards acting in line withour values, and that could be
(07:10):
about doing thingscompassionately, assertively,
wisely, sympathetically.
We can choose to move towardsthose qualities of action in the
choices that we make.
And that's that idea of actingeffectively that you mentioned.
So we can be branching towardsthose values and indeed a sense
(07:30):
of purpose, which I'm sure we'llcome to as well.
Or we can end up branching away,away from potential discomfort
or distress or doubt or fearthat could arise as we maybe put
ourselves forward into anunfamiliar or novel situation.
And if we are branching awayfrom the discomfort and that
(07:53):
sense of unease that can ariseas we try something new or
different, or we put ourselvesout there, we can invariably
take ourselves away from oursense of purpose, away from
acting effectively, and withthat away from perhaps being
true to our personal values.
So, yes, that's that idea ofeither branching towards versus
(08:15):
branching away in the choicesthat we make.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
I'm really big on value alignment.
I think we also know with ourfeelings or our intuition, and
then our mind seems to getinvolved and tell us otherwise.
So we do live each day with allthese choices, these emotions,
thoughts.
And I guess we have our gooddays, our bad days, our
(08:39):
challenging days.
And this would lead to this ideathat you write about being
helpful, and that'spsychological flexibility.
So would you like to sort ofbriefly define that and touch on
why that's important?
And then obviously that relatesto the title of your book, which
is a lovely title, The Tree ThatBends.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
So psychological flexibility can be defined as
the ability to have difficultthoughts and feelings and either
maintain our behavior or indeedchange our behavior in service
of connecting with our personalvalues and our sense of purpose.
So it's this idea of havingdifficult thoughts and feelings
(09:24):
and still committing to doingwhat matters.
That's ultimately psychologicalflexibility.
So a number of years ago, I wasworking in sub-Saharan Africa
and I heard a Tanzanian proverb,the wind does not break the tree
that bends.
And I just thought, wow, interms of a powerful visual
metaphor and uh a metaphor fromnature, and I think nature can
(09:47):
be a great teacher.
We have this idea of this treethat can bend in the wind and
persists and endures in spite ofthe stresses and strains that it
experiences.
And that visual metaphor stayedwith me.
And I thought it captured thisnotion of psychological
flexibility very well.
(10:07):
And I had been working for anumber of years in
high-performance environments,and I had been struck by how
people can really berelentlessly relentless.
Now being relentless andtenacious are certainly
qualities that can help youachieve, but they can also lead
to burnout.
And I just wanted to write abook about the role that
(10:29):
psychological flexibility canplay in helping people to both
take care of themselves and takecare of business.
So the tree that bends is abouthelping people to both perform
well and feel well.
These two things don't need tobe in opposition.
So I use the tree metaphor andthe anatomy of the tree to
(10:50):
represent three importantcomponents of psychological
flexibility.
So the roots of the treerepresent the tree's ability to
remain anchored in its location,and we need to be anchored in
the here and now in which ourlife is unfolding, as opposed to
doing too much mental timetravel to the past or to the
(11:10):
future and missing out on thehere and now.
So we need to be anchored.
The trunk of the tree needs tobe willing to sway in the wind
to absorb its energy.
We need to be willing torecognize that our minds can be
the story-generating machine andwilling to turn towards rather
than away from the emotions thatshow up with those stories.
(11:32):
And finally, there's the crownof the tree, which represents
the tree's capacity to get thepower it needs to grow and
develop.
So the crown of the tree is thebranches and the leaves where
photosynthesis happens.
It captures the sun's energy,it's energized by that energy,
and it produces the fuel.
(11:52):
We too need to be empowered,empowered by our sense of
purpose, our personal values,and take pragmatic action in
line with our purpose and ourpersonal values.
So anchored, willing, empoweredare the three elements of
psychological flexibility.
And they spell out the acronymAwe just so that people can
remember it.
Anchored, willing, andempowered.
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
Beautiful metaphor because some trees do capture
awe or put you in a state ofawe.
And also to quote from your bookimagine being grounded like a
tree with deep roots, yetempowered to respond flexibly to
life's challenges.
So he has to have thisfoundation of strength, but we
(13:05):
can sway and continue to grow.
And obviously, also we caneither bear fruit or leaves or
even be a place of refuge forpeople or birds or stuff like
that, or maybe koalas inAustralia.
So I think it's very helpfulthis metaphor.
So the roots is about beinganchored, the trunk, this
(13:27):
willingness to sway, move,adapt, and with the crown uh
empowered.
Uh, you also use the metaphor ofa tree to talk about balancing
or the balancing of life andthriving.
So do you want to go into thatas well?
SPEAKER_01 (13:41):
Yeah, great.
If we extend that metaphor ofthe tree, we can think about how
trees change their functioningacross the year cycle.
So trees in spring and summerget busy, they're in full
foliage, and they are doingtheir utmost to capture the
(14:01):
sun's energy.
They're being very productive,creating the fuel that it needs
to grow and develop.
And I like to think about thatas get mode, right?
It's very active, it's very muchabout striving to capture that
energy.
And I think we have our springand summer, we have our get
mode.
We are motivated to work towardsachievement, we have ambitions,
(14:24):
and it's important for us to setgoals and to work towards those
goals.
So, like trees, we have our getmode.
Now, trees also need to berobust and to invest energy in
protecting themselves, so theywill have mechanisms that
protect them from buginfestations, so they can use
their sap, for example, as a wayof protecting them from bugs,
(14:47):
and they also need to bevigilant to fungi, which can
infect the bark and can indeedkill a tree.
So trees need to invest energyin surviving.
Trees have their threat mode aswell, and we too have our threat
mode.
It's important for us to respondto risk and danger.
Unfortunately, our minds can gointo overdrive and there can be
(15:10):
a lot of false positives interms of the threats that we
might pick up.
And we have these imaginal mindsthat can generate potential
threats that could come furtherdown the line.
And because we can look back intime, we can also find ourselves
full of regret and remorse aboutthings that maybe didn't go so
well, so our threat system canget overactive.
(15:30):
Now, finally, trees in autumnand winter drop their leaves,
they go into a period ofdormancy, particularly deciduous
trees.
That's a time for reset, andtrees need that reset.
If I was to bring an oak saplingindoors, it wouldn't thrive, it
would die because it's not goingto get the natural signals it
(15:52):
needs for its reset mode becauseof the artificial light inside.
So trees need reset mode, and Ithink we need our reset mode.
We need to take care ofourselves.
And unfortunately, in modernlife, our get and threat modes,
I think, are very highly active,and our reset mode can be the
poor cousin.
(16:13):
So we need to blend theseefforts between get, threat, and
reset, which are about striving,surviving, and reviving,
respectively.
So yeah, we need to bepurposeful in our reset.
And it's the anatomy of a tree,its ability to be anchored,
willing, and empowered thatallow it to move flexibly
between those three motivationalmodes.
(16:36):
And I think psychologicalflexibility can help us move
flexibly between those threemotivational modes of get,
threat, and reset.
SPEAKER_00 (16:45):
This resonates with me.
I think in Australia, wherewe're either blessed or cursed
with having summer at the startof the year, I know it motivates
me to be quite ambitious.
And sometimes I do see ambitionas a double-edged sword, you
know.
You have all this excitement,you see this opportunity, and
then you start to think, oh, I'mgonna do this or that.
(17:06):
And then if you're not careful,we kind of get into this burnout
state.
So do you think people are toomuch focused on the get mode?
SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
I think we can be forgiven for being too focused
on the get mode because there'sa lot of cultural messaging
around that.
I I engage with social media,I'm on various streaming social
media platforms.
One thing that strikes me isthat there's a real risk that
(17:38):
those always-on kind of messagesget promoted above others, and
obviously algorithms can drivewhat we see, and my experience
may not be the same as yours orsomebody else's, but I'm
conscious that there has been alot of focus on this notion of
having to almost sacrifice yourown well-being on the altar of
(18:01):
success.
It's kind of like a the 5 a.m.
club.
You know, if you're not ifyou're not getting up at 4:45
a.m.
and uh, you know, hitting therunning track at 5, then in some
way you're feeling.
So I am a bit concerned aboutthat.
It's almost a compelling sell,it's a sexy sell, dare I say,
(18:23):
that some of those morethoughtful, considered, and dare
I say, less kind of drivenattributes don't get celebrated
quite as much.
You know, hey, rest well doesn'tmaybe resonate as strongly as
some sort of uh catchphraseslike stay hard, which is David
Goggins, right?
His his kind of chat to camera.
(18:46):
Um so yes, there can be a bit ofuh a skewed perception of what
qualities will actually allowyou to sustain your efforts in
the long term.
It tends to focus on one end ofthe extreme and maybe not enough
on those other.
Also really importantattributes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
There's a Japanese concept called Yutori, and it's
this idea of the gap or space,and it's throughout their
culture, so in theirarchitecture or as a
psychological concept, or evenin their music, there's
intentional pauses or gaps.
And in Japan, they don't haveawkward silences where we tend
(19:29):
to have this idea of an awkwardsilencing conversation.
Do you think we need to spendmore time in reset mode?
And how can we give this gift toourselves when we're surrounded
by a world of distraction orthis idea we have to be crushing
it like David Goggins everymorning?
SPEAKER_01 (19:48):
This gap mode, when we are really quite driven or
thinking that we should be doingmore, it can tip into threat
mode because we're left to thinkI'm not enough.
And there is this insidiousmovement towards us defining
ourselves not on who we are, butwhat we do.
(20:15):
And if we're not beingproductive enough, if we're not
being successful, then who arewe?
And rather than us thinkingabout ourselves in terms of what
we've done, what we do, maybeit's more about how we are, how
we are with ourselves, how weare with others, how we are with
our planet.
(20:36):
So get mode and threat mode, youcan find yourself flipping from
get mode into threat mode.
And yeah, I do think we need tobe more purposeful in activating
that reset mode.
And there are different waysthat we can do that.
And in the book, I talk abouttwo different strategies, one
(20:58):
being um momentary moves,momentary moves.
Those are moves we can do inmoments, right?
And the way we can access thereset mode in momentary ways is
to draw on self-transcendentemotions.
So there are threeself-transcendent emotions that
I think are particularly helpfulfor reset mode.
(21:20):
One is wonder, and you alludedto this, Nick, that idea of
getting into nature, connectingwith something that is more vast
than us.
And I'm thinking here, forexample, of forest bathing,
which I know is is popular inJapan, but it could be about
standing under a night sky, astar-filled sky.
(21:42):
We were blessed in the northernhemisphere last year with Aurora
Borealis, northern lights, whichwas fantastic, but that kind of
sense of wonder that itinspires, that sense of
connecting with something much,much more vast than ourselves.
So connecting with nature can bea great way of activating that
(22:03):
wonder.
Green and blue spaces, asthey're referred to, have been
shown to be hugely helpful forour mental health and
well-being, whether that's acoastal path that you walk on,
or by a lake, or indeed in awooded area or forest.
The second self-transcendentemotion is gratitude.
So gratitude is about thatrecognition of something we've
(22:26):
reason to be thankful for.
It could be an experience, itcould be an interaction with a
pet, it could be something thatsomeone has done for us.
We can take an opportunity toexpress that gratitude.
So I could thank you, Nick, forsincerely inviting me on this
podcast.
I'm very grateful for that.
So I can express that gratitudeto you, and that can be
(22:49):
conducive to my own well-being,to know that I have been
authentic and true to myself inexpressing how I feel.
But it's potentially alsohelpful for you because you know
you could easily have chosen tobranch away and not contacted
me, and hopefully you getsomething from that too.
But equally, gratitude has beenshown to be conducive for a
(23:10):
reset and our well-being.
And we don't need to necessarilyexpress it outwardly.
I could have a gratitudejournal, and this evening I
could write down three thingsthat I'm grateful for.
Oh, yeah, that conversation withNick Kemp this morning was
really, really good.
And that can be really helpfulfor our well-being because we're
taking stock, we are savouringthe emotions that showed up as
(23:34):
we did what we did.
So gratitude is an importantopportunity for reset.
And finally, then there'scompassion.
And compassion is defined as anability to empathize and
recognize suffering in anotheror in oneself, and importantly,
being motivated to do somethingto alleviate that suffering.
(23:58):
And sometimes it can be easierto be more compassionate to
others than it might be to becompassionate to ourselves.
And there are exercises,techniques that we can use to
develop that self-compassionmuscle.
It doesn't come easy because wehave all kinds of fears that
show up around self-compassion.
I'll be letting myself off thehook, I'll be going easy on
(24:21):
myself, or I don't deserve it,or it's self-indulgent, right?
Or it's weak.
But I see self-compassion asthis very active, courageous
willingness to take care ofoneself.
So those are the momentarymoves, and then there are bold
moves for resets, and those arelarger commitments, perhaps
(24:43):
counterintuitive.
Um, for example, I took a12-month career break from
working at the university afterfinishing the book to take some
time to realign with my purpose,my personal values.
And yeah, that wasn't easy.
It kind of felt like I wastaking the food off the gas in
some ways, and that can bescary.
But I'm grateful that I did havethat opportunity and that I was
(25:06):
able to take it.
So momentary moves, bold movesfor resets.
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
This is all resonating.
I actually think in the future,spending time in nature will
become like a pillar of healthbecause we had diet and exercise
for so long, and then sleeprecently came into it.
Like getting a good night'ssleep apparently is like the
number one thing to do for yourhealth.
And there's all this researchand many books coming out.
(25:31):
But we don't seem to talk aboutnature as something as a daily
practice, whether you just go toyour local park or if you're
fortunate enough to besurrounded by a forest or go by
the seaside.
So I'm thinking when you go outin nature, you just feel it.
You breathe it in, you feelbetter.
Yet we don't seem to spendenough time outdoors.
(25:53):
And then even when we'reoutdoors, we might not be in
nature.
So we're very much stuck in thisartificial world.
And then the gratitude piece isvery important, especially in
Japan.
I wrote a book on somethingcalled rolefulness.
Oddly, the term was coined by aJapanese professor, and there
(26:13):
were three elements to it.
They almost sound like toobasic.
So we're greeting peopleproperly, having conversations
like we're doing, and thenexpressing gratitude.
You can do this really in any uhrelationship, any situation.
I think if gratitude's notexchanged or expressed unless
(26:35):
you're not a very nice person,you kind of feel off.
There's something missing.
There is this urge.
I guess compassion is reallybeing present, not just for
yourself, but for someone elseand what they're going through.
Obviously, we have to getthrough all this uh
self-criticism before we caneven take on being compassionate
for ourselves.
(26:55):
But I think this also allrelates back to what you earlier
mentioned, acceptance andcommitment therapy.
So, how does that all tie in topsychological flexibility?
SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
As I mentioned, uh alluded to this briefly, that
the anatomy of the tree allowsit to move flexibly between
those three modes and get thethreat and the reset.
I would say that psychologicalflexibility is the key
ingredient that allows us toeither stay in a particular
(27:28):
motivational mode if it's inservice of doing what matters to
us and it's consistent with ourpersonal values, or indeed
switching in to one of thoseother motivational modes because
the context requires us to doso.
Unfortunately, in life, we canfind ourselves being hemmed into
being one-trick ponies.
(27:50):
Our workplaces can, for example,celebrate and reinforce
particular characteristics andqualities and traits that we
might have, and that can be veryhelpful.
But those same traits that arehelpful in a boardroom may not
be that helpful in the kitchenor the family living room.
(28:11):
So you've got to be able toflexibly move between these
different modes of operating,depending on the context that we
find ourselves in.
And the book really culminatesin the final chapter with a
two-phase process.
And the two-phase process issimply two main questions.
(28:33):
So the first question is well,ask yourself what motivational
mode are you in right now?
I think that's a great questionto ask through the day.
Am I in get threat or resetmode?
And within that question, it'shelpful to ask yourself, well,
what are the benefits of beingin this mode right now?
And there may well be someimportant benefits.
(28:54):
You could be working towards adeadline, right?
And get mode is is helping youum move towards that.
The second sub question withinthat is what are the drawbacks
of being in this motivationalmode in this context?
So just being explicit withyourself about well, what are
the potential pitfalls?
(29:16):
And finally, within thatquestion, it's where am I on the
sustainability question?
You know, and that is can Imaintain my current pace in this
mode?
I think you want to be on theright side of maybe in how you
answer that question.
So let me explain that.
Arguably, if you're saying, andthis is drawing from sporting
(29:39):
analogy, it's actually aquestion that time trialists
will ask themselves in cycleraces.
They'll ask, well, is my currentpace um sustainable?
And the argument is that if theanswer is yes, you're not maybe
pushing yourself hard enough.
Okay, that's interesting.
And if the answer is no, thenthe game's a bogey.
(30:02):
You've probably pushed yourselftoo hard.
So you need to reel back on it abit.
And the argument within thismetaphor in cycling is that you
want to be in the maybe zone.
Maybe is my current pacesustainable.
So you're kind of at that pointwhere you're working hard and
you can sustain that effort inthe long run.
(30:25):
There's an openness to considerthat that's still going to be.
Possible.
Well, in life, I think we needto ensure we're on the right
side of maybe.
You know, you don't want to beon the wrong side.
And if you're on the wrong side,if it's a clear no thing, you're
going to have to explore othermodes and maybe take other uh
steps to ensure that you getadequate support or help to get
(30:48):
the work done.
So then the next question is howcan I bring my psychological
flexibility skills to help meeither stay in this zone or
navigate away from it?
What can I do to be anchored,willing, and empowered?
So basically it's about where amI?
What motivational mode am I in?
(31:08):
Okay.
And then how can I use mypsychological flexibility skills
of anchored, willing, andempowered to either stay in this
mode or to switch to another.
SPEAKER_00 (31:19):
So presence keeps coming back to my mind, like,
oh, we must be so present to beable to work out.
Yeah, are we in the maybe, thegood side of maybe?
I like how it's maybe, it's notsome cliched, I'm in the zone.
But that's true.
Like you wouldn't have absolutecertainty if you're, let's say,
(31:39):
doing a time trial.
If it's long enough, I guesspace matters, energy.
If you've gone out too hard, youthink, okay, well, yeah, I'm not
going to do well in this race.
But these questions areimportant.
I do have this question, and I'mkind of scared to ask it because
I think we're living in thisworld of distraction, and if
(32:00):
we're trying to be psychologicalflexible, do you think that's
getting harder?
I mean, I I know you work withathletes, but for people in
general who aren't, let's say,driven for specific goals and
relentless in their training andgoal achievement, with phones
and entertainment on tap now.
(32:22):
Is it harder to be psychologicalflexible?
Assuming people know theconcept, which might be the
first total as well.
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
Yeah.
Let's just begin by saying ourattentional resource does need
to cycle.
There are going to be timeswhere our attention does need to
be laser focused, and we need toreally allow ourselves time and
opportunity to do a task or tocommit to a practice or be where
(32:53):
we are.
And then there are going to betimes where we need to refresh
or restore that attention.
And do you know what?
Like mobile phones and littlegames and a bit of time on
social media, that can give yourattentional resource a bit of
downtime to go again.
So I'm not going to decry theend of our attentional resource
(33:17):
through technology, but I agreethat we need to be considered
and thoughtful about well, howdo we maintain a level of
awareness and indeed anawareness of our awareness,
meta-awareness, it's sometimescalled, which speaks to the
point that you were alluding to,Nick, that idea of, well, in the
heat of the moment, in the heatof the race, are we going to
(33:42):
have the wherewithal to kind ofhave the ability to ask
ourselves those questions, thosetwo key questions that I alluded
to earlier?
I think we need to be proactivein investing in our
meta-awareness, our ability tobe aware of where our attention
has moved to.
And there are steps that we cantake to do that, to build that
(34:03):
presence that you mentioned,which really speaks to the
anchored element ofpsychological flexibility being
anchored in the here and now.
I think practices likemindfulness or other forms of
meditative practice can be veryhelpful at doing that proactive
work to help us stay centered,to notice when we've moved away
(34:26):
from center so that we can havethe opportunity to choose to
bring ourselves backpotentially.
There's a risk sometimes that,particularly in the West, we
relate to mindfulness practiceor meditation in a reactive way.
It's kind of like a break glasspoint.
You know, it's kind of like, oh,sugar lumps, the stress is
(34:47):
really come on.
I'll do my meditation now.
And it's kind of like sewingyour parachute as you're jumping
out of the plane.
It's kind of like do the workbeforehand, invest proactively
in helping yourself staycentered.
So it does require a level ofdiscipline.
It does require commitment, itdoes require consistency.
(35:07):
And sometimes that's the stuffthat can get washed away in our
frantic lives.
So yeah, being purposeful anddeliberate about making time for
those practices, I think, isimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (35:20):
Do you encourage journaling?
SPEAKER_01 (35:22):
Yeah, journaling would be a practice that I do
talk about in the book and I douse with my clients.
And there's some acronyms thatare very useful for helping to
drive the journaling activity.
So it may be journaling aroundgratitude in particular.
That's an approach that Ioutline in the book.
But equally it could be more ofa reflective framework.
(35:45):
So what happened, what wentwell, what didn't go so well,
what have I learned, those kindof prompts that help people
prepare for other eventualitiesthat they could face in the
future.
SPEAKER_00 (35:58):
I find it very effective.
From what I can tell, people whotend to journal seem to have
more control of their life.
Not equating success topurposeful, but they also seem
to have more success, likethey're in control, they're very
aware of what they want.
And they'll tell you they've gota bookshelf of dating back from
years ago.
(36:19):
I think a lot of people thinkjournaling's hard, especially if
you can't like me, handwriting'shorrible, you can't spell, and
you you're worried about how itlooks.
But if you let all that go andthink, well, it's only for me.
I'm the only person reading it.
I might not even read it, I'mjust writing it out.
And you free yourself from anyideas that your writing has to
be beautiful or grammaticallycorrect, it becomes very
(36:42):
helpful.
And it would be so helpful maybeto start or end the day with a
few thoughtful questions on howam I feeling, what's my
intention, what can I do formyself or others.
I'm a big believer in that.
And I think journaling alsohelps you with purpose, and you
also touch on purpose.
(37:04):
You talk about how some peoplethink purpose is something you
find or it's your why.
Famously, someone said it's yourwhy, or it's something we find,
but you have a different take onpurpose.
So we'd like to share that.
SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
Allude to this in the book, but I've also written
uh an article recently forPsyche magazine, and it's due to
come out over the next month ortwo.
I talk about how uh to my mindpurpose isn't something we find,
it's something we form.
And I'm concerned about some ofthe messaging around purpose and
(37:42):
this idea that we find itbecause it suggests that we're
in a position of scarcity.
Do you know it's kind of likeit's something I don't yet have?
And I think that's misleading,and I'll say a little more about
why I think it's misleading.
But in addition, it's kind oflike we're waiting, waiting for
(38:02):
this moment of discovery.
Almost like walking around thecorner and you trip over your
purpose.
Oh, there you were all thistime, fully formed, all fleshed
out and ready to get up andrunning with.
I think that just creates asense of frustration when people
are left to think, well, Ihaven't found it.
(38:24):
Um, if there are little crumbsof indication, well, that's not
really it, because it it shouldbe something that's more fully
established and there.
And I think it also breeds asense of despondency, even if
you stumble on something thatdoes feel intrinsically
(38:44):
important.
Uh, if challenges arise, it cangive a sense of uh despondency
that it's not as perfect as itought to have been or should be.
So for me, I think the idea offorming purpose is so much more
helpful.
It's a place of abundance, it'salready there, it's maybe within
(39:07):
you in terms of little thingsthat you've tried that have
brought vitality, enthusiasm,that have lit you up.
Or it could be these ideas thatyou maybe haven't had the chance
yet to operationalize thatexcite you, that give you
enthusiasm, that give you thatsense of vitality.
(39:28):
So I'm quite interested in thatelement.
And when we think about formingsomething, we recognize that
it's a process, it's an ongoingcommitment rather than oh, here
it is, fully fledged, and it'salso highlighting that it
evolves, it can change and shiftover time, and indeed uh maybe
(39:50):
two, three purposes, plural, cancoexist and evolve alongside
each other.
And there's not this sort ofsense of despondency then that
might arise if things start togo awry or or challenges arise.
Well, this is part of whatevolution is about.
(40:12):
Evolution is not necessarilywithout friction.
So I like that idea ofcultivating and forming our
purpose.
They are acorns that are therewithin our lives already.
We don't have to wait for amoment of epiphany.
SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
We do tend to have this all or nothing attitude to
purpose.
In the West, we often equate itto success.
I think you also make thedistinction.
It's like a sense of purpose.
So you can feel it, cultivateit, and feel it in the small and
just doing things well.
You could have severalgoal-driven purposes.
You don't have to have onethat's going to magically
(40:52):
transform your life somehow.
So we have this unrealistic ideaof oh, purpose is sweet spot.
It's the same for icky guy.
Ike guy is sort of appropriatedand misunderstood, and people
think it's this perfect sweetspot you'll eventually get to.
I think there's a word for that,like destination addiction or
something.
SPEAKER_01 (41:12):
And with that, there's also this concept of
arrival fallacy that we can getan achievement, a moment of
success, and we think, well,this is what I've been working
towards.
This is so much my purpose.
And then we're left to feel thissense of emptiness within a
relatively short period of timeafter that joy and the initial
(41:34):
jubilation.
Well, what's life about now, andwhere do I go from here?
So it's not this magical answerthat this outcome that we had
tethered so closely to our senseof purpose.
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
We've either been misled or we've we've bought
into the dream.
Interesting, the Japanese wordfor purpose, the the two kanji
characters can be read as uselife.
And so I think it's a wonderfuldefinition.
It's more about using your lifein a daily context.
How do you want to use yourlife?
And then from that, you'relikely to feel a sense of
(42:08):
purpose rather than alwaysforward looking, thinking I'll
get there someday.
So this actually might move ustowards icky guy.
What makes your life feel worthliving?
So I imagine that's a number ofthings for you, Ross, including
your your work and I thinkoutdoors from what I know of
(42:32):
you.
So yeah, what makes your lifefeel worth living?
SPEAKER_01 (42:36):
Yeah, that's a great question.
For me, I really have thought alot about this, and my sense of
purpose, I realize, is helpingother people to really get in
touch with their sense ofpurpose.
Now that sounds like a cornyanswer, but there's something
incredibly special to me aboutseeing the lights come on behind
(43:00):
my clients' eyes.
That idea of them lighting up asthey start to reconnect with
what it is that they've becomedistant from or felt that they
ought not to pursue, becausethey've been influenced in
pursuing other objectives andoutcomes, and they're realizing
that they have this opportunityto come back to themselves.
(43:21):
It was that was driving them asopposed to what they they felt
they should do, they ought todo, and we're shooting ourselves
to death.
I should do this, I should dothat.
And so, yeah, I love that workwith clients, really helping
them to connect with their senseof purpose.
Um, so professionally, that'sabsolutely there.
(43:43):
And um yeah, you're right aboutnature, about getting outdoors.
I quite enjoy road cycling aswell.
It's a beautiful way to take ina lot of miles and to really get
to know a landscape.
We're blessed in Ireland with umbeautiful countryside.
I take part in what are calledsportives and their endurance
(44:07):
rides, maybe anything between 90miles up to maybe 160 miles, and
you do them in a day, you doyour training, you do a few
hills, but you also get anopportunity to take in that
countryside, and some of themare along um coastal routes as
well, which is stunning.
I spend a lot of time in thewest of Ireland, um what's
(44:30):
called the Wild Atlantic Way,um, where the Atlantic Ocean
meets the Irish coast, and it'squite a rugged coastline.
So I quite enjoy doing coldwater dipping.
So I was in the Atlanticyesterday, uh, 10 degrees
Celsius, um, just marginally umcooler than the air temperature,
(44:50):
to be honest, at this time ofthe year.
So that's very invigorating.
And you know, you alluded tothis earlier that we can be
clear on what our passions mightbe, what our sense of purpose
could be, and our mind willgenerate so much in terms of
potential resistance and reasonswhy we ought not to, we should
(45:11):
not.
In anticipation of doing things,our minds will get very busy and
active.
And cold water dipping is verymuch like that.
You know, this is gonna be socold, this is gonna be so cold.
And when you're actually in thesituation and you've done it,
the sense of exhilaration andthe reset that that provides,
it's it's amazing.
(45:32):
So it's a good example ofpsychological flexibility and
action, us being willing to showup to the stories, willing to
lean into that trepidation anduh the worry about the the cold
temperature and do it becauseit's important to connect with
nature for me in that way.
Love it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:51):
In my showers with a cold finish, so and it's so easy
now, but the first couple oftimes, so I probably need to
just walk into a cold chatternow if I want to challenge
myself.
SPEAKER_01 (46:05):
Good.
Well, I look I look forward tohearing how that goes.
SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
Don't don't force me to make a video of something,
but uh but it is fascinating howour minds can really something
that can be initially positive.
Our mind can even turn it andsay, Oh, well, things could go
wrong, or is it really for you?
So our mind can be our bestfriend or our worst enemy.
(46:32):
We've got this incredibleability to imagine things,
create things, uh, communicate.
Look, everything around us,someone's created with your
imagination somehow.
Yeah, uh, it can also bedebilitating and create false
fear and hold ourselves back.
But with a flexible mind, we canthrive and be like a tree that
(46:56):
bends.
So it's been a joy to get toknow you, Ross.
So how can people find or reachout to you?
SPEAKER_01 (47:05):
They can reach out on LinkedIn.
My profile name is Dr.
Ross G White.
I'm on Instagram at Ross GWhite, um on X, what was
formerly Twitter, at Ross GWhite as well.
I welcome people reaching outand yeah, check out uh my
(47:26):
webpage as well.
It's www.rosgwhite.com, and thattells you a bit more about the
book and the work that I do, andthere's links to Strive to
Thrive, which is the consultancyorganization that you mentioned
at the top of the show.
So happy to explorecollaborations and learn from
(47:47):
others, and hopefully they get abit of an opportunity to learn
from me too.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
So we'll put all that in the show notes and links
to all those web properties.
So is there any final message orthoughts you'd like to share
with our audience?
SPEAKER_01 (48:04):
Yeah.
Principle that I think has beenreally helpful in my life, and I
hope it will be helpful in thelives of others, is this idea of
strong intention, lightattachment.
So let's commit to being strongin our intention, be true to our
sense of purpose and ourpersonal values, and light in
(48:27):
getting attached to there beingone particular way that we
should do that.
And I think we can sometimes,like moths around a light bulb,
get very attracted to particularways of doing things.
And really, flexibility is aboutrecognizing that there are many
(48:48):
paths to purpose, many paths topersonal values.
And I just encourage people tohold that in mind that strong
intention, light attachmentidea.
SPEAKER_00 (48:59):
Love it.
I think it's a perfect way toend.
So that's a lovely takeaway.
So thank you, Ross, for joiningme in your morning and my
evening.
SPEAKER_01 (49:10):
Pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (49:10):
Thanks for the invite.
My pleasure, mate.
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