July 15, 2025 • 42 mins
What if the most dangerous addictions aren't the ones society warns us about, but the ones it actively encourages? In this thought-provoking conversation with Mike Helwig, a pastor turned licensed psychological counselor, we explore the concept of "acceptable addictions" - those normalized behaviors that silently damage our relationship with God and divide us from our community.
Helwig brings a unique perspective as someone who combines theological training with clinical mental health expertise. He defines addiction clearly: compulsively engaging in behavior you're powerless to change alone, to the point where you ignore negative consequences. While society recognizes substance abuse as problematic, we often overlook equally destructive normalized behaviors like excessive phone usage, emotional eating, workaholism, and what was once called gambling but has been rebranded as "gaming."
The spiritual dimension of these behaviors proves particularly troubling. "Addiction is really rooted in sinfulness, and sinfulness divides me from God," Helwig explains. "When I separate myself from God, I also separate myself from the people who stand best positioned to help me." This division creates a dangerous cycle where normalized addictions flourish unchallenged.
Recognizing you have a problem starts with honest self-assessment, professional evaluation, or simply listening to loved ones who see patterns you've normalized. Helwig shares his own journey to sobriety and offers a transformative four-window wellness plan focusing on spiritual practices, emotional/mental health, physical wellness, and social connections – a holistic approach recognizing God designed us for authentic connection.
The path to recovery begins with confession to trusted Christians who respond with Christ's forgiveness, removing shame that perpetuates addictive cycles. This creates space to replace harmful coping mechanisms with healthy alternatives. As Helwig notes, "When you rid yourself of something, there's a cavity the devil wants to fill."
Take the first step toward freedom by examining what you've normalized. Have your "acceptable" habits become unacceptable barriers between you and authentic connection with God and others? Join us as we explore breaking free from the addictions we don't talk about.
SHOW NOTES:
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
Find strength and courage in your faith at this year’s FEARLESS FAITH Conference. Inspired by Joshua 1:9, “Be strong and courageous,” join us Saturday, September 13, at Kettle Moraine Lutheran High School in Jackson, Wisconsin, for presentations on navigating life’s storms, understanding God’s peace, and engaging in crucial conversations about euthanasia, anorexia, abortion, prenatal genetic testing, and more. Hear powerful journeys of faith through loss and hope. Don’t miss this empowering event! $50 in person or $40 virtual. Register now: https://christianliferesources.com/resources/events/2025-conference/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
On today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
So addiction is really rooted in sinfulness, and
sinfulness divides me from God,so that's harmful for me.
But when I separate myself fromGod, I also separate myself
from the people who stand bestpositioned to help me in my
unwanted behaviors.
So sin divides us from eachother right.
Lots of times these habits andthese addictions become secret
(00:24):
or private even the ones thatget normalized.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to
these issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Hi, welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz, and I'mhere today with Pastor Jeff
Samuelson, and today we have aspecial guest with us.
We have Mike Hellwig.
We have a really cool kind ofspecial topic to talk about.
I mean, I think it's cool, butwe're going to be talking about
addictions and different thingstoo.
(01:15):
But, mike, can you just startby telling us a little bit about
yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
I had a very traditional 70s,80s, 90s training into public
ministry.
I went to a ministerialeducation school, mlps in
Prairie du Chien, got morphedinto the prep system, went to
Northwestern College, pastorCollege in Watertown and
seminary in Mequon and graduatedseminary in 97.
(01:42):
And seminary in Mequon andgraduated seminary in 97.
During my seminary years I gotmarried, started having a family
and vicaried in Baraboo,wisconsin, and then for six
years served as a pastor inGrand Island, nebraska, at a
little church and school calledChrist Lutheran Church and then
for 15 years served as pastor atCrown of Life in Hubertus
(02:04):
Richfield.
For 15 years served as pastor atCrown of Life in Hubertus
Richfield, not far from wherewe're doing this podcast
actually, and in the later years, after about 20 years of parish
ministry, I was called to teachseniors and juniors at an area
Lutheran high school in LakeMills, lakeside Lutheran High
School.
The second of the four yearsthat I taught high school was
the beginning of the pandemicand was also the beginning of my
(02:27):
achievement of a three-yearmaster's program in clinical
psychology and clinical mentalhealth.
So by the end of the pandemic Iwas knee-deep in practicum, in
internships with ChristianFamily Solutions and some other
entities that were guiding me ona path toward licensure in the
(02:47):
state of Wisconsin as an LPC, alicensed psychological counselor
therapist, and so I'm veryclose to full licensure.
I do have the master's programand I work in really two
capacities at Christian FamilySolutions.
Currently I work as a therapistin one of our church
partnership clinics, living WordLutheran Church in Waukesha,
(03:07):
and now my primary role atChristian Family Solutions is
something that's called faithintegration.
So it's my role not just to dodoctrine and practice within the
organization but to helpeverybody, including myself,
understand the integration ofbiblical truths in their
entirety and not compromisingwhen they get woven into
(03:29):
evidence-based practices in thetherapy world and not
compromising clinical,evidence-based practices that
are healthy and manageable toolsfor treating diagnosable mental
health.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
So you've just moved forward and now you're just
coasting in your career.
Right, right People.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I'm approaching 54 and people joke about what I'm
going to do when I grow up.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
So yeah, Well, awesome, well, we're really glad
to have you with us today andto talk with us, and the topic
that we really wanted to diveinto today is this topic
acceptable addictions.
This was something that Jeffhad kind of brought to our
attention to kind of talk about.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Yeah, I just say you can't hear them, but there are
quotation marks around theacceptable in this the idea that
there are some things that manyof us might have a problem with
that we don't quite realize wehave a problem with because
society or our peers areaccepting of it.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think too, when we hear of addictions
we go right to the big onesthat our society has said oh
yeah, those are really bad youknow, just off the top of my
head, society has said, oh yeah,those are really bad.
you know, just off the top of myhead I mean I think of drugs or
the abuse of alcohol.
(04:52):
But you know, as Christians weknow, kind of like Jeff was
saying too there are maybe somethings that we are addicted to,
that we need to face as well,that maybe aren't this big thing
in society but maybe are stillor can be a problem in our lives
too.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right.
So when you sent me the programnotes and some of the teaser
questions and I started to lookthrough and think through how
these unheard and unseen quotesare on the word acceptable, I
got thinking about the wordnormalize.
When we normalize somethingit's usually within a group of
people.
For example, in the Christianworld we normalize what behavior
(05:30):
looks like and that can be forgood and that can be for bad.
In a society, in a town, you gofrom one town to the next and
some things are normal and somethings are not normal.
And in the very real world ofaddiction we unfortunately
normalize and can be a verypowerful tool to make something
that's unhealthy seem normal toeverybody around them so that
they become accepted.
(05:51):
When we normalize things, evenif they're bad things, it's
difficult to leave them becauseeverybody else is doing it in
that system.
For example, we know that drugand alcohol abuse is an
addiction and it's an unhealthyone.
But in the state of Wisconsinoverdrinking might be normalized
and accepted by certainstandards, in certain
(06:14):
circumstances or in certainevents.
So it's okay to get drunk atthe New Year's Eve party or the
wedding.
I don't do this normally day byday.
That's normalizing somethingthat's unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
That's a really great point too, and you know, I just
wanted to maybe also kind ofjust break down what we actually
mean by addiction.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And talking just about whataddiction is, maybe is when I
compulsively do something thatI'm powerless to change by
myself, to the point where Iignore the negative consequences
.
So I see and know that thereare negative harmful
(06:55):
consequences and I compulsivelydo this thing habitually anyway.
Really it there.
It there morphs into lots ofdifferent other things.
But think about it in terms ofwhen I compulsively do something
that's harmful and ignore thenegative consequences, even
though that I know what they are.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Wow.
So then how is that differentthan just doing a bad habit?
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
So bad implies that you don't want it right.
So if I bite my nails, it's abad habit.
It doesn't have any moral ormental health issues tied to it
the way substance abuse orpornography addiction or
gambling or some of the otherthings that we think of as big,
big, big ones.
We think in terms of three orfour major addictions that seem
(07:40):
obvious to us.
A habit can be a positive thingor a negative thing, and if we
call it a bad habit, we'vealready identified it as
something unwanted.
So we start talking aboutunwanted behaviors.
I don't want to bite my nailsanymore.
I want to lose some weight, Iwant to eat better, I want to
exercise, and then that movesinto this whole societal
normalization of makingresolutions at New Year's Eve
(08:02):
after the bad drinking.
Normalizing moves into what isacceptable to me as an
individual, what is unwanted inme as an individual.
If I already know that I wantit, then it's probably something
I want to rid my life of.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So why will Christians in particular want to
be on the lookout foraddictions and addictive
behaviors in their lives, oreven in the lives of people
around them?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
So two things really.
It's very clear in the Bibleyour sin separates you from God
and we know that theologicallysin separates, divides me from a
really good relationship withGod.
So addiction is really rootedin sinfulness and sinfulness
divides me from God.
So that's harmful for me.
But when I separate myself fromGod I also separate myself from
(08:50):
the people who stand bestpositioned to help me in my
unwanted behaviors.
So sin divides us from eachother right.
Lots of times these habits andthese addictions become secret
or private, even the ones thatget normalized.
I'm sure before the end of thepodcast we're going to start
talking about things that seemso normal and ready, like phone
use and all of these otherthings that are not shameful to
(09:14):
do in public.
It's not shameful to be on yourphone in public.
It's shameful to look at pornon your phone in public.
So those are two differentthings.
I think we sense these thingsare unwanted when the people
around us are divided from uswhen we do them.
So habits unwanted tend todivide us from the people who
(09:35):
stand best to want to help us.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
I think part of it, or I guess something that I've
given a fair amount of thoughtto over the last few years is
something that a lot ofChristians in particular should
want to appreciate is theconnectedness of things.
You mentioned pornographyaddiction.
And it's fairly easy to imaginethe married man, father of four
kids or whatever, who hasdeveloped a pornography
(10:00):
addiction and, whether he callsit an addiction or not, he
thinks of it as just as histhing that he does in his own
privacy.
It doesn't affect anybody else,it's not public, and yet he
does not realize how thatconnects to how he deals with
his wife, how he deals with hiskids, how he deals with women
that he might work with or whathe looks at on the TV when it's
(10:20):
on and all these things.
It affects so many other thingsand he thinks he has it
isolated, but he doesn't.
It connects with everythingelse and that's the kind of
thing that as Christians, wewant to be the whole person that
God has made us to beinteracting with everybody with
love and care and service andeverything like that.
(10:41):
And when we appreciate thatconnectedness, I think it's a
lot harder to dismiss somethingas just this isolated thing.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
That's a good segue into the second point.
The second point is asChristians.
It's more vitally important forus because the unbelievers are
watching.
For centuries we've known thisright, that hypocrisy is very
easy to fall into, like theworld looks at Christians and
goes you guys are supposed to bethe ones stepping in line.
(11:10):
And then look at all of youyou're just a mess.
And so when a Christian claimsto be a Christian and then has
behaviors that are not in linewith Christianity and the Bible,
then we stand to cause offensein the sense of we allow other
people to believe that whatwe're doing is not wrong or is
incongruent with theirunderstanding of what
Christianity ought to be, andthen we cause offense that way.
So it's vitally more importantfor us to draw clear lines and
(11:31):
say this is what Christianitylooks like.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
When we talk about, too, some of the acceptable
addictions in quotations.
Let's just kind of call some ofthem out.
What are some of these ones?
Like I said kind of in thebeginning too, we know some of
the bigger ones that I meanespecially our society has said
are not good addictions.
But what are some that we'retalking about when we talk about
(11:55):
these acceptable addictions?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Well, I mentioned gambling before.
I think every Christian sensesthat there's danger there.
And yet even our Christiansociety has normalized some risk
when it comes to betting on thehorses and having fun at the
horse shows, or we even wentfrom calling it gambling to
calling it gaming.
Right, it's fun, it's anentertainment and quite frankly,
(12:18):
I believe there could be somedebate for even a Christian
pastor to say I know some of mymembers and maybe even myself
that does that that that bets onthe horses or all of these
other things, and we call itgaming.
But again, remember, when wenormalize something that leads
to danger, we normalizesomething that leads to danger
and so there's a difference.
(12:38):
So I think I mentioned, Imentioned phone usage.
We we live in an incrediblyimportant time to really think
about our phone usage, and Idon't mean, like even the evil
things you can find on the darkweb, I mean just the habit of it
is something that I go to whenI'm bored.
It is something that I go towhen I'm not bored.
(12:58):
It is something that takes awaytime from me, and there's lots
of research out there clinically, medically, spiritually, where
our screen time, our phone usage, has totally damaged us.
And yet look around you.
It's everywhere.
You can't go to a restaurant,walk on the sidewalk, see people
in their cars and, as Jeff saidbefore, when you talk about
(13:20):
like I think it's only me, wedon't think back and go.
When I'm on my phone and I'mwith other people, I'm dividing
myself from that person andthat's harmful.
So phone usage, gambling,turning into gaming, eating,
exercising there's a balancebetween exercising healthy and
then over exercising to thepoint of harming your body.
(13:43):
We can under eat, we can overeat.
We can eat for the wrong body.
We can under-eat, we canover-eat.
We can eat for the wrong reason.
We can eat the wrong things,right.
And so again in our societies,when we normalize things and we
do all of the ha-ha jokes aboutit, like what are the things
people give up for Lent?
These days, you get to AshWednesday, go, I'm going to give
up chocolate for Lent.
Super good, not anythingsinfully wrong about that.
(14:04):
But what are you really givingup?
What are you really sayingabout what you want for yourself
?
And is that really anabandonment of a bad habit, or
is that an acknowledgement thatthere's probably deeper things
you want to rid yourself of?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
How do you know?
Maybe that you have anacceptable addiction?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Super.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
If it is just so normalized in our society.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Right.
Three things, and the first twoare connected.
Anyone anywhere can get on theGoogle thing and Google am I
addicted to my phone?
And tests will come up.
Am I addicted to drugs oralcohol?
And a test will come up.
Am I addicted to gambling?
And a test will come up.
There are oodles and oodles oftests out there and they can be
found, and some of them arequite very true.
(14:48):
If you want to do this in theprivacy of your own home and say
I think I use my phone too much, or I think I have too many
drinks every night, or I thinkI'm addicted to XYZ, there are
lots of tests.
The second thing that's tied tothat is our clinicians.
Clinical mental health peopleare trained in how to use those
tests, how to administer them,how to read their results, and
(15:10):
so if you really want to helpfind out, it can't harm anything
, anybody, I think.
I personally think I'm biased alittle bit, but I also go to
therapy and I think everybodywould do well to go to see a
therapist and if someone'sconcerned that they think they
are addicted to something, aclinician is trained in how to
use those tests and help themsee it.
(15:31):
The third thing is ask thepeople who love you.
They will tell you and if theydon't, they're lying.
But I think people who love usmost.
If a loved one came to me andsaid, do you think I have a
problem with XYZ, I wouldprobably tell them.
And if they're telling you it'sa problem, they're telling you
that it's a problem for them andthat's not good.
And you might, like Jeff wassaying before, I think it's only
(15:53):
governing me, but it's not.
And when people go, yeah, Ithink Mike has a problem and
they're honest with you.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
That's probably the better test, not this is really
what's going on with me.
You know the various thingsthat you do is, uh, I'll use the
term self-medication I don'tfeel good, so I'm going to do
something that makes me feelgood.
It may be just the momentary uh, dopamine hit you get from
(16:24):
social media or video games orsomething like that.
It may be I'm going to have adrink.
No, no, I'm going to have threedrinks, or whatever it might be
, because you're solving aproblem.
I don't feel good right now.
You don't quite see.
Oh yeah, I've actuallydeveloped this more than a habit
thing, where this is my go-toresponse to not feeling good and
(16:46):
I can't really control itanymore.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Super good point.
I'll use sleep as an example Inthe clinical mental health
world.
When it comes to anxiety, sleepis a calming skill.
When it comes to depression,sleep is an avoidance and it's a
bad habit.
So, like, if I'm depressed andI sleep too much, I'm just
avoiding dealing with mydepression.
If I'm anxious and anxiety andI have sleepless nights, sleep
(17:09):
is exactly what I need.
We're not talking about, likethe 22 year old coming home for
Thanksgiving and sleeping untilone when he's home for a break.
We're talking people misabusingtheir understanding of a
healthy, good night's sleep orsleeping away.
So what you're talking about,jeff, is avoidance.
I came home from a bad day atwork and the only way for me to
(17:30):
deal with this right now is tohave three martinis Not true,
but true in that that's exactlyhow that person is going to cope
with that day.
So if it becomes the copingskill, then the coping skill is
unhealthy because you're notreally, in the end, dealing with
what you're really troubledabout.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
So if you have identified that you have one of
these addictions that we've kindof talked about, what's really
the next step?
Like, what do you do from there?
I mean, I think you know, maybesome of us, if we're honest,
are just like yeah, I mean, Ireally am on my phone too much,
I mean, and I try to put it downor I try to just be like, oh,
(18:10):
I'm not going to do it, and thenI just find myself doing it
again.
So how do you really solve thatproblem?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Right.
So this is really the heart ofeverything that I would want to
leave anybody with at any placein time.
Number one it's in the Biblethat we speak openly and
honestly.
We call it confession, confessyour sins to one another.
It's in the Bible.
But there's a super deep reasonwhy God would have us openly
(18:41):
and audibly say to a friend inChrist I have a problem and this
is what it is.
Because then that offers thatopportunity for that friend in
Christ to say number one as faras the East is from the West,
jesus loves you and has removedthat sin from you.
It removes all shame and guiltfrom you.
And this is the place to start.
That Christ loves me and hedemonstrated that on the cross
(19:03):
and in the empty tomb is thesolvent to every problem.
Every malady in life is deeplyrooted in the fall.
Either I did something wrong orsomething has caused harm to me
and I found a harmful way toreact to it and respond to it.
So, number one finding aconfidential Christian group of
people.
(19:23):
I call them Christ confessors,and I'm not just talking, just
your pastor.
If it starts with your pastor,super great.
If it starts with your spouse,your best friend, your roommate
in college, if it starts withyour spouse, your best friend,
(19:49):
your roommate in college, thatyou find someone to whom you can
say anything to and you knowthe first thing out of the mouth
is Jesus loves you, godforgives you, I forgive you.
Let's start there and fromthere's avoidance for depression
.
There's also replacement skillsfor that avoidance.
So we start talking abouthealthy skills in the mental
health world to replace theunwanted habits with good ones.
Right A long, long time ago inmy first parish, one of my board
of elders told me, pastor Mike,somebody I think his great
uncle or somebody had told him,when you rid yourself of
(20:12):
something, there's going to be acavity that the devil wants.
So when we identify what thatthing is and leave it, the
devil's going to want to fillthat space quicker than I do.
And so filling that space withwholesome.
What does Paul say?
Whatever is lovely, whatever isnoble, whatever is.
Think about such things thatit's even biblical to say
replace the unwanted behaviorwith lovely, noble, marvelous,
(20:36):
divinely through the word of God, given things.
And that gets built into thesecoping mechanisms dialectal
behavior skills, cognitivebehavioral skills, all of these
things that we find mindfulnessskills, and really some of it is
just going back to our roots ofGod created us to be in his
creation.
God designed us to be withpeople.
God us to be in his creation.
God designed us to be withpeople.
(20:56):
God designed us to have humanconnection.
God designed us to be inworship with him.
God designed us and I think alot of the things that when we
talk about the addictive world,they're very unnatural.
And God says I've given younatural things to help you end
your day positively.
Take those and run.
So that's a start I'm going togive you end your day positively
, take those and run.
So that's a start.
I'm going to give you whatevery one of my clients gets
(21:18):
eventually in session with meand is the close of every
psychoeducational, faith-basedpresentation that I do, and I
called it building your ownwellness plan.
Everybody can be well and thewellness plan has four windows
or doors in it.
The first window is spiritual.
So what is my spiritual growthplan?
And yes, home devotions, goingto church, building a faith
(21:41):
community, but I meanintentionalizing that to
something that works.
When I talk to pastors I sayit's not enough to just be in
the word for your sermons.
What's your devotional plan tobe with Jesus today, just you
and Jesus.
And who are the Christ-centered, focused people?
Who's that Christ confessorgroup that's going to hold you
accountable to your devotionallife, to your talks, to how
(22:03):
you're doing with your faithlife?
So, spiritual is the first door.
Second door is emotional,mental.
So do you have a hobby?
Do you journal?
Do you not like to journal?
Do you go for walks?
Do you take breaks?
Do you know how to manage yourday?
First time I ever went totherapy my therapist the first
thing that that person did wassaid Mike, give me your schedule
, your calendar.
I went what?
(22:23):
Because what does that have todo with my mental health?
And that person very clearlyhelped me understand that I was
creating terrible workboundaries, terrible family
boundaries, terrible familyboundaries, terrible social
boundaries, like my calendar wasan absolute mess.
It was no wonder I was so likecalendaring and scheduling and
blocking off your day and sayingI'm going to work for 20
minutes on a project at work andthen I'm going to take five and
(22:44):
go for a walk.
I'm going to work an hour on uh, this set or the other thing,
and then I'm going to call afriend and call him up or I'm
going to stop and text a joke tosay, you know so, like
governing your day mentally.
I paint.
I'm not super great at it but Ilove to do it and it takes me
to a whole different world.
I love the people who taught mehow to paint.
I love painting with otherpeople.
(23:05):
The third door so spiritual,mental, emotional.
The third door is physical.
So let's talk about addiction.
Say I'm going to, I'm going tocome full clean here, right on
the podcast.
I am sober about eight yearsnow.
So I realized at some point intime in my life that alcohol and
myself is a terrible recipe andthank God and thank the
Christian friends around me thatI have lived a very happy,
(23:28):
social, sober life.
And so then we talk about thephysical.
We talk about what do you putin your body, what do you not
put in your body?
Do you take those walks?
Do you exercise?
I have a gym membership.
I go to the gym not to be abodybuilder, but I go to the gym
to feel good about going to thegym.
And that physical can also dealwith sleep, like, oh man, we're
(23:49):
supposed to get what seven,eight hours and who of us does
that right?
And to get what?
Seven, eight hours, and who ofus does that right?
And the fourth window is social.
So who are my closest friends?
Who are my family?
Where's my Christ confessorgroup?
I don't owe the same emotionalstuff to the mailman that I do
to my wife.
I don't owe the same emotionalweight to the person in the
(24:11):
grocery store that I do to myJesus.
Right?
So we begin to understand thatGod built us to be social, not
to everyone.
So creating social boundariesthat are healthy and good, maybe
it's been a while, and I justneed to say I'm going to tap
into one of my really closefriends that goes we haven't had
coffee in a while.
Let's do it.
I don't care about work, workcan wait, right.
(24:34):
I haven't had a really nicedinner with my wife in weeks.
It's about time.
And not because it's of ouranniversary or not because of
whatever.
We just need that husband-wifetime.
So all of these like healthysocial relationships.
Again, that's how God built us,right.
So those four windows, and Iguarantee you nobody is ever
going to be perfect this side ofheaven.
(24:55):
But I guarantee you nobody isever going to be perfect this
side of heaven.
But I guarantee you if you canbe taught and held accountable
to those four healthy windowsday by day, by day, some of them
I talk about an equalizer, likeall four of those levels, will
bounce around, but if you'regiving attention to those four
windows, people can beataddictions, they can stop bad
habits, they can rid themselvesof unwanted things in their life
(25:15):
and replace them, mostlyimportantly, with Christ and
with the people who are going tobe Christ with them.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And you said too these are day-to-day things.
Yes, every day it's importantto try to work all those areas
each day.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, indeed, I'm not perfect, but I can tell you for
a fact, not a day goes by whenI don't think of all, personally
, my four windows.
Where am I at spiritually?
What was my devotional lifelike today?
What is my social life today?
What is my physical life today?
Did I get my steps on my phone?
Did I beat Rachel, my wife, insteps on her phone, and where am
(25:52):
I?
With those equilibriums?
And I think if you and otherpeople that love you are holding
yourselves accountable to that,lots of even accepted
addictions will start to go away.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean I guess too, justlike kind of going along with
that.
Do you find that people withaddictions does it just depend
on the addiction as to whichfour of those windows aren't
getting the attention that theyneed, or do you see one window
that is constantly hard forpeople to maintain every?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
day.
Oh, that's a really goodquestion and I have two answers
to that question.
Number one in the clinicalmental health world, this is one
of the trickiest questions andand I'm always leaning on
colleagues, on supervisors, onpeople smarter than I am when it
comes to this question.
Like, say, somebody comes withhigh level trauma because of a
(26:45):
crisis, because they were afirst responder, because they
experienced a terrible thing,because as a childhood they were
abused, whatever, whatever, andthey're in an addiction,
substance abuse.
The big, like chicken or eggquestion in therapy world is do
you treat the trauma first orthe alcoholism first or the drug
addiction?
And some people in the worldwill say it depends, but lots of
(27:10):
times we will say we need toget people sober first, then we
can get to the ideal, because alot of times the alcoholism, as
Jeff said before, it's thesymptom of a bigger root.
It's really an abandonment ofwhat's really wrong.
The second part of thatquestion is I don't even know
for myself sometimes, krista, if, like, what caused my physical
(27:34):
well-being to be off today Likesuper good devotion, had a great
time with a great Christianfriend this morning.
I got to paint after supper,but when I look back on it.
I ate terrible junk food.
Today I didn't exercise Like,so my physical one dipped.
I'm just now myself gettingokay at guessing why that is,
(27:55):
and I think again that's a goodreason to see a therapist or
have a Christian friend go.
Yeah, why did you drop on thatone today?
Was it schedule?
Was something else botheringyou?
Ironically and sadly, we can goback to quotes acceptable
addictions.
We can be doing seemingly good,normal things.
(28:17):
We didn't get to this.
But work right, workaholismLike I can be, I can be doing a
70 hour week and go.
I was busy this week.
Was that healthy?
Was that good?
For all of your other threeareas, did you meet your goals?
Why were you busy?
What are you avoiding?
And not going home from work?
And, by the way, I just learnedthis at a workshop in La Crosse
(28:41):
.
The keynote speaker said thatAmericans work 200 hours more
than the next society down,which is Japan culture.
That's five weeks of PTO.
Can Americans give up fiveweeks of PTO and say we're still
just as busy as the busiestother organizations in the world
(29:02):
?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
with the question as well is so many people think,
all right, I mean I have thisdeadline at work or I have this
big project coming up orsomething, and yeah, I mean that
is just going to what's goingto consume my life and I'll work
(29:25):
out when I'm done, or I'llspend more time with my family
when I'm done with this project.
Is it healthy to live life likethat?
And I mean, if not, how do youkind of balance that a little
bit when you're in this cultureof having to meet deadlines?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's a really hard line.
The sad reality is, mostoftentimes what's speaking the
loudest in that room is money.
And what's speaking most oftenloudly and just as loudly are
the people who believe thatanswering the money question
will answer the other questions,that if we have enough money as
a corporation, we'll be able todo what we really want to do as
(30:04):
a corporation.
If that corporation is likemaking the best soda and your
mission is to make the best sodaand you believe that you can
make more money to make moresoda, your practices in making
the better soda is going to godown.
It's just a weird thing.
It's not sustainable.
If I could wave a magic wand, Iwould collectively say to
(30:28):
corporate America we're nothelping our families be families
.
We're not helping our spousesbe spouses, parents be parents.
It's a hard balance and I thinkit starts with one person and
that's you.
I find myself doing this and mycoworkers are probably going to
hear this podcast.
It gets to be three o'clock andI'm kind of done doing what I'm
doing and I'm looking aroundthe office building.
(30:49):
I'm going.
There's a lot of people hereand they still have things to do
.
Do I look like a schmuck if Ileave the office and I've
stopped doing that.
I do not guilt myself over that.
I'm done for today and I have awife at home and I have fish to
catch in a lake and painting todo and then I know that's going
to make me well and that'sgoing to serve the people around
me and the people I love well.
It's okay to say that atcorporate world, to say that at
(31:15):
corporate world I'm done fortoday.
If you can't live with that,you're going to have to find
somebody else to do what I dofor you, and that's a big leap
of faith.
But I think that's where itbegins.
That's what we have to do.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So how can outside people help us?
You kind of talked a little bitabout that some accountability
people.
I guess I'm thinking you knowmore like pastors and other
people as well, but how can ournetwork really support us?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I'm going to cheat a little bit.
Can I tell your audience that Igot to hear your last podcast.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, sure, so.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I know that one of the podcasts that's getting put
out is like specific messages inpastoring, not just in sermons
but in the kinds of things thatthe church does and that the
church means to do, not in asocialistic kind of way, but
genuinely being real about sinand grace in the specific lives
of our people and offering themmessages of certainty and hope
(32:09):
in the very genuine, specificways of their lives.
Pastors having the opportunityto be that space where people
can come and go.
I think I can talk to my pastorabout real things.
I think I can open my heart alittle bit and tell him that I'm
troubled with lots of differentthings and he's going to be the
man who's going to say Jesusloves you and so do I.
I think the other thing thatthe church can do I talk about
(32:32):
this with my own son, who's apastor in Michigan is to avoid
being the problem.
Churches and church lifefamilies get very, very busy in
the name of doing Jesus work andall of a sudden, the very, very
hardworking people in Americafeel like they have to be
hardworking at church, feel likethey have to be on every
committee.
They've got to coach basketballfor the grade school.
(32:54):
They've got to volunteer at theSunday school.
They've got to be at.
The next thing, they got tocome to Arbor Day and the next
thing, you know, the church hasmade our families even more busy
than they can afford to be,instead of assisting them with
ways to do home devotions,family nights you know what?
This is the night you stay homefrom church.
This is the night you stay homefrom everything and then be
(33:16):
moms and dads and husbands andwives and children and
grandchildren so the church andthen people who are really
struggling with the deep things.
I think the stigma is droppingand we're thankful.
I'm personally thankful thatthe stigma is dropping.
People know that it's okay toask for help.
It's okay to see a therapist.
It's okay to see your doctorabout your I think I'm
overeating.
(33:36):
It's okay to see your doctorabout I don't feel well,
something's wrong and I don'tknow how to figure it out.
It's okay to see a psychologistor a med check and see if you
need some medication that willget you on the right track.
It's okay to call a friend thatyou haven't seen since high
school and say can we get coffee?
It's really again, it's aboutbeing connected, but it's also
(33:57):
about retraining the people whoare in charge of our lives.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
And how might you?
You've got someone in your lifemaybe it's your spouse, maybe
it's your brother or sister,friend, maybe even somebody
you're not that close to, butyou're in a position to notice.
And this is somebody that hasone of these acceptable
addictions, or else maybe one ofthe not so acceptable ones that
they think they've got hiddenaway and isn't so.
(34:24):
And you approach them andthey're just like.
You know, this is my thing,it's not really affecting
anybody else, and besides which,it's just a bad habit.
I can just say goodbye at anypoint.
You know I can quit, I justdon't feel like it.
Or you know, I need it rightnow.
If I don't need it tomorrow,that'll be the end of it.
What is the loving, practical,Christian way to approach a
(34:49):
loved one like that?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I'm hearing two questions, Jeff, and they're
both very good questions.
One is how do I approach thatperson and help them?
The other is how do I help themidentify that they need the
help?
And those may seem very close,but they're uniquely different
questions.
First of all, it's importantfor every one of us to remember
that if we're holding ontosomething that we think is just
(35:12):
us, that it's only me.
I remember way back to highschool days and one of my good
buddies smoking cigarettes washuge in the dorm prep system
that I grew up in, and Iremember one of the older mentor
classmen saying it's my thingand it doesn't affect everybody
else.
Well, if you're smoking in theboy's dorm, it's affecting
everybody.
(35:32):
We now know that scientifically.
But if you're hurting yourself,you're hurting the people you
love.
It's just a fact, right, andyou kind of identified it before
when we were talking aboutunwanted behaviors when it comes
to pornography or whatever.
Like I think I've got this.
But it's also affecting mysleep, my relationships, my my
ability to cognitively workthrough a day.
(35:55):
I think the second part of yourquestion, ironically, was just
asked of me at one of my recentpresentations, and it's such, I
think it's such a vital question.
It's like now it's now, I'm not.
I'm not saying this is for afriend, and you really mean you.
It is really for a friend likethe spouse or the friend or the
college roommate or the highschool classmate that says my
(36:15):
friend's really struggling, howdo I be that person?
It starts number one withjourneying with that person in
such a way that says I'm a safespace for you, you can tell me
anything, I'm not a tattletale,I'm not a judgy.
Judgy, I'm going to forgive you, I'm not going to think less of
you.
And the more you can, one by one, convince that person that
(36:36):
you're a safe space, that you'rea grace person, that you're a
Jesus person, that you are Jesusto that person, the more they
will learn.
To lean into you and be honestwith you is then the next step
of taking them by the arm, maybeeven literally, and saying walk
with me, I will go with you totherapy, I will go with you to
see your pastor, I will go withyou to see a doctor.
(36:59):
It's not just you have aproblem and I think you need
help.
It's a long, loving, gracious,patient building of a trust with
a person that speaks volumes atyour person that they can trust
to say anything to.
And once you get to that trust,then you can start to say would
you go to a therapist, Can Ihelp you schedule the
(37:21):
appointment?
And then the accountabilitystarts happening.
When accountability startshappening, super good things are
going to start happening.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Okay, just real briefly.
I want to turn that around alittle bit.
What if you are the person whohas identified?
I think I have a problem, butthe people in your life that you
should be able to turn to inthe way that you were just
talking about aren't there.
Maybe your spouse is just veryjudgmental, or you feel that he
(37:51):
or she is, or you know yourpastor.
You just have always had theimpression that your pastor just
is not somebody who canunderstand these things, not
somebody you know you can talkto about these things.
So the places that you thinkyou should go aren't safe spaces
and so you don't.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
It's okay.
It's okay to say that's not aspace.
I can go to Number one.
You can't change someone elseand their observation of you.
You can only change yourself,right.
And so if somebody's really atthat point where they go, I've
got a problem and the people whoI think probably are the people
God has put in my life to helpme, won't and can't and I don't
(38:31):
feel safe with that space.
Then again, it's okay to sayI'm going to go get help and
when I start to get help, theway I'm going to change and move
the needle on their perceptionof me is by changing me, not
them.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Any final thoughts?
I know we've talked about a lotof things here and stuff too,
or just anything that you'dreally like to leave people with
.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
My generation 20 years ago.
How many friends do you have?
I would have said I've got 35friends.
I got 45 friends.
I, to this day, am close withall of my high school classmates
.
We're weeks away from evenhaving a dinner and getting
together, If you talk to mygrandfather, and the days of
card clubs and family dinnersand trading houses every weekend
(39:15):
.
Those are not all good habitshappened in those societies, but
they understood who theirfriendships were.
Now, if you were to ask 18 to 25year olds, you would.
You would find that they, theydon't have any friends or one,
and and I I believe a lot ofthat it is not because of the
pandemic, it is not because ofcovid pandemic resurrected the
(39:37):
fact that we were separated fromeach other already into social
media, into phone usage, intoscreen times, into things we
believed to be genuinely realbut turned out to be fake, and
we can't get out of it.
I think of the U2 song.
We're stuck in a moment and wecan't get out of it, and some of
those people are just stuck inthis moment and they can't get
out of it, and I believe theonly way out is to find one, and
(40:02):
then two, and then three peoplethat socially bring us out.
We need as a society, as aChristian society, we need to
band together and get back intogroups.
Some of the best churches thatare growing and flourishing, if
you look at them, are ones whohave gotten people back into
small group, are ones who havegotten people around a band of
(40:24):
fellowship, of people who areopenly and honestly speaking
with one another about theirtrue issues and their true
problems and finding safe placesfor them to heal each other and
to heal the brokennesses of ourworld.
And we need to put our phonesdown.
We need to make healthy meals,we need to go to coffee with one
another, we need our familiesto be families again and not be
(40:44):
divided up in the same home intodifferent rooms with different
screens and different things,and God created us to be
genuinely humanly real with himand with each other, and so I
think the only way for us to getout of this moment is to
abandon all of the fake and getback to genuinely being real
human beings.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Mike.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Thank you, thanks for having me on.
It's fun.
It was deep, but it was fun.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
That's right.
That's right, and we thank allof our listeners, too, for
joining us, and if you have anyquestions on this episode or any
others, you can reach us atlifechallengesus.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
And we look forward to having you back next time.
Thanks a lot, bye.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode of the Life
Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
(41:53):
you to know we're here to help.
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodesat lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the the podcasts, we include other valuable
information at life challengesus, so be sure to check it out for
more about our parentorganization.
(42:13):
Please visitchristianliferesourcescom.
May god give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in christ for
every life challenge.
For every life challenge.
On today's episode.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
So addiction is really rooted in sinfulness, and
sinfulness divides me from God,so that's harmful for me.
But when I separate myself fromGod, I also separate myself
from the people who stand bestpositioned to help me in my
unwanted behaviors.
So sin divides us from eachother right.
Lots of times these habits andthese addictions become secret
(00:24):
or private even the ones thatget normalized.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to
these issues and more.
Join us now for Life Challenges.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Hi, welcome back.
I'm Krista Potratz, and I'mhere today with Pastor Jeff
Samuelson, and today we have aspecial guest with us.
We have Mike Hellwig.
We have a really cool kind ofspecial topic to talk about.
I mean, I think it's cool, butwe're going to be talking about
addictions and different thingstoo.
(01:15):
But, mike, can you just startby telling us a little bit about
yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
I had a very traditional 70s,80s, 90s training into public
ministry.
I went to a ministerialeducation school, mlps in
Prairie du Chien, got morphedinto the prep system, went to
Northwestern College, pastorCollege in Watertown and
seminary in Mequon and graduatedseminary in 97.
(01:42):
And seminary in Mequon andgraduated seminary in 97.
During my seminary years I gotmarried, started having a family
and vicaried in Baraboo,wisconsin, and then for six
years served as a pastor inGrand Island, nebraska, at a
little church and school calledChrist Lutheran Church and then
for 15 years served as pastor atCrown of Life in Hubertus
(02:04):
Richfield.
For 15 years served as pastor atCrown of Life in Hubertus
Richfield, not far from wherewe're doing this podcast
actually, and in the later years, after about 20 years of parish
ministry, I was called to teachseniors and juniors at an area
Lutheran high school in LakeMills, lakeside Lutheran High
School.
The second of the four yearsthat I taught high school was
the beginning of the pandemicand was also the beginning of my
(02:27):
achievement of a three-yearmaster's program in clinical
psychology and clinical mentalhealth.
So by the end of the pandemic Iwas knee-deep in practicum, in
internships with ChristianFamily Solutions and some other
entities that were guiding me ona path toward licensure in the
(02:47):
state of Wisconsin as an LPC, alicensed psychological counselor
therapist, and so I'm veryclose to full licensure.
I do have the master's programand I work in really two
capacities at Christian FamilySolutions.
Currently I work as a therapistin one of our church
partnership clinics, living WordLutheran Church in Waukesha,
(03:07):
and now my primary role atChristian Family Solutions is
something that's called faithintegration.
So it's my role not just to dodoctrine and practice within the
organization but to helpeverybody, including myself,
understand the integration ofbiblical truths in their
entirety and not compromisingwhen they get woven into
(03:29):
evidence-based practices in thetherapy world and not
compromising clinical,evidence-based practices that
are healthy and manageable toolsfor treating diagnosable mental
health.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
So you've just moved forward and now you're just
coasting in your career.
Right, right People.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I'm approaching 54 and people joke about what I'm
going to do when I grow up.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
So yeah, Well, awesome, well, we're really glad
to have you with us today andto talk with us, and the topic
that we really wanted to diveinto today is this topic
acceptable addictions.
This was something that Jeffhad kind of brought to our
attention to kind of talk about.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Yeah, I just say you can't hear them, but there are
quotation marks around theacceptable in this the idea that
there are some things that manyof us might have a problem with
that we don't quite realize wehave a problem with because
society or our peers areaccepting of it.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think too, when we hear of addictions
we go right to the big onesthat our society has said oh
yeah, those are really bad youknow, just off the top of my
head, society has said, oh yeah,those are really bad.
you know, just off the top of myhead I mean I think of drugs or
the abuse of alcohol.
(04:52):
But you know, as Christians weknow, kind of like Jeff was
saying too there are maybe somethings that we are addicted to,
that we need to face as well,that maybe aren't this big thing
in society but maybe are stillor can be a problem in our lives
too.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right.
So when you sent me the programnotes and some of the teaser
questions and I started to lookthrough and think through how
these unheard and unseen quotesare on the word acceptable, I
got thinking about the wordnormalize.
When we normalize somethingit's usually within a group of
people.
For example, in the Christianworld we normalize what behavior
(05:30):
looks like and that can be forgood and that can be for bad.
In a society, in a town, you gofrom one town to the next and
some things are normal and somethings are not normal.
And in the very real world ofaddiction we unfortunately
normalize and can be a verypowerful tool to make something
that's unhealthy seem normal toeverybody around them so that
they become accepted.
(05:51):
When we normalize things, evenif they're bad things, it's
difficult to leave them becauseeverybody else is doing it in
that system.
For example, we know that drugand alcohol abuse is an
addiction and it's an unhealthyone.
But in the state of Wisconsinoverdrinking might be normalized
and accepted by certainstandards, in certain
(06:14):
circumstances or in certainevents.
So it's okay to get drunk atthe New Year's Eve party or the
wedding.
I don't do this normally day byday.
That's normalizing somethingthat's unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
That's a really great point too, and you know, I just
wanted to maybe also kind ofjust break down what we actually
mean by addiction.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And talking just about whataddiction is, maybe is when I
compulsively do something thatI'm powerless to change by
myself, to the point where Iignore the negative consequences
.
So I see and know that thereare negative harmful
(06:55):
consequences and I compulsivelydo this thing habitually anyway.
Really it there.
It there morphs into lots ofdifferent other things.
But think about it in terms ofwhen I compulsively do something
that's harmful and ignore thenegative consequences, even
though that I know what they are.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Wow.
So then how is that differentthan just doing a bad habit?
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
So bad implies that you don't want it right.
So if I bite my nails, it's abad habit.
It doesn't have any moral ormental health issues tied to it
the way substance abuse orpornography addiction or
gambling or some of the otherthings that we think of as big,
big, big ones.
We think in terms of three orfour major addictions that seem
(07:40):
obvious to us.
A habit can be a positive thingor a negative thing, and if we
call it a bad habit, we'vealready identified it as
something unwanted.
So we start talking aboutunwanted behaviors.
I don't want to bite my nailsanymore.
I want to lose some weight, Iwant to eat better, I want to
exercise, and then that movesinto this whole societal
normalization of makingresolutions at New Year's Eve
(08:02):
after the bad drinking.
Normalizing moves into what isacceptable to me as an
individual, what is unwanted inme as an individual.
If I already know that I wantit, then it's probably something
I want to rid my life of.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So why will Christians in particular want to
be on the lookout foraddictions and addictive
behaviors in their lives, oreven in the lives of people
around them?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
So two things really.
It's very clear in the Bibleyour sin separates you from God
and we know that theologicallysin separates, divides me from a
really good relationship withGod.
So addiction is really rootedin sinfulness and sinfulness
divides me from God.
So that's harmful for me.
But when I separate myself fromGod I also separate myself from
(08:50):
the people who stand bestpositioned to help me in my
unwanted behaviors.
So sin divides us from eachother right.
Lots of times these habits andthese addictions become secret
or private, even the ones thatget normalized.
I'm sure before the end of thepodcast we're going to start
talking about things that seemso normal and ready, like phone
use and all of these otherthings that are not shameful to
(09:14):
do in public.
It's not shameful to be on yourphone in public.
It's shameful to look at pornon your phone in public.
So those are two differentthings.
I think we sense these thingsare unwanted when the people
around us are divided from uswhen we do them.
So habits unwanted tend todivide us from the people who
(09:35):
stand best to want to help us.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
I think part of it, or I guess something that I've
given a fair amount of thoughtto over the last few years is
something that a lot ofChristians in particular should
want to appreciate is theconnectedness of things.
You mentioned pornographyaddiction.
And it's fairly easy to imaginethe married man, father of four
kids or whatever, who hasdeveloped a pornography
(10:00):
addiction and, whether he callsit an addiction or not, he
thinks of it as just as histhing that he does in his own
privacy.
It doesn't affect anybody else,it's not public, and yet he
does not realize how thatconnects to how he deals with
his wife, how he deals with hiskids, how he deals with women
that he might work with or whathe looks at on the TV when it's
(10:20):
on and all these things.
It affects so many other thingsand he thinks he has it
isolated, but he doesn't.
It connects with everythingelse and that's the kind of
thing that as Christians, wewant to be the whole person that
God has made us to beinteracting with everybody with
love and care and service andeverything like that.
(10:41):
And when we appreciate thatconnectedness, I think it's a
lot harder to dismiss somethingas just this isolated thing.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
That's a good segue into the second point.
The second point is asChristians.
It's more vitally important forus because the unbelievers are
watching.
For centuries we've known thisright, that hypocrisy is very
easy to fall into, like theworld looks at Christians and
goes you guys are supposed to bethe ones stepping in line.
(11:10):
And then look at all of youyou're just a mess.
And so when a Christian claimsto be a Christian and then has
behaviors that are not in linewith Christianity and the Bible,
then we stand to cause offensein the sense of we allow other
people to believe that whatwe're doing is not wrong or is
incongruent with theirunderstanding of what
Christianity ought to be, andthen we cause offense that way.
So it's vitally more importantfor us to draw clear lines and
(11:31):
say this is what Christianitylooks like.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
When we talk about, too, some of the acceptable
addictions in quotations.
Let's just kind of call some ofthem out.
What are some of these ones?
Like I said kind of in thebeginning too, we know some of
the bigger ones that I meanespecially our society has said
are not good addictions.
But what are some that we'retalking about when we talk about
(11:55):
these acceptable addictions?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Well, I mentioned gambling before.
I think every Christian sensesthat there's danger there.
And yet even our Christiansociety has normalized some risk
when it comes to betting on thehorses and having fun at the
horse shows, or we even wentfrom calling it gambling to
calling it gaming.
Right, it's fun, it's anentertainment and quite frankly,
(12:18):
I believe there could be somedebate for even a Christian
pastor to say I know some of mymembers and maybe even myself
that does that that that bets onthe horses or all of these
other things, and we call itgaming.
But again, remember, when wenormalize something that leads
to danger, we normalizesomething that leads to danger
and so there's a difference.
(12:38):
So I think I mentioned, Imentioned phone usage.
We we live in an incrediblyimportant time to really think
about our phone usage, and Idon't mean, like even the evil
things you can find on the darkweb, I mean just the habit of it
is something that I go to whenI'm bored.
It is something that I go towhen I'm not bored.
(12:58):
It is something that takes awaytime from me, and there's lots
of research out there clinically, medically, spiritually, where
our screen time, our phone usage, has totally damaged us.
And yet look around you.
It's everywhere.
You can't go to a restaurant,walk on the sidewalk, see people
in their cars and, as Jeff saidbefore, when you talk about
(13:20):
like I think it's only me, wedon't think back and go.
When I'm on my phone and I'mwith other people, I'm dividing
myself from that person andthat's harmful.
So phone usage, gambling,turning into gaming, eating,
exercising there's a balancebetween exercising healthy and
then over exercising to thepoint of harming your body.
(13:43):
We can under eat, we can overeat.
We can eat for the wrong body.
We can under-eat, we canover-eat.
We can eat for the wrong reason.
We can eat the wrong things,right.
And so again in our societies,when we normalize things and we
do all of the ha-ha jokes aboutit, like what are the things
people give up for Lent?
These days, you get to AshWednesday, go, I'm going to give
up chocolate for Lent.
Super good, not anythingsinfully wrong about that.
(14:04):
But what are you really givingup?
What are you really sayingabout what you want for yourself
?
And is that really anabandonment of a bad habit, or
is that an acknowledgement thatthere's probably deeper things
you want to rid yourself of?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
How do you know?
Maybe that you have anacceptable addiction?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Super.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
If it is just so normalized in our society.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Right.
Three things, and the first twoare connected.
Anyone anywhere can get on theGoogle thing and Google am I
addicted to my phone?
And tests will come up.
Am I addicted to drugs oralcohol?
And a test will come up.
Am I addicted to gambling?
And a test will come up.
There are oodles and oodles oftests out there and they can be
found, and some of them arequite very true.
(14:48):
If you want to do this in theprivacy of your own home and say
I think I use my phone too much, or I think I have too many
drinks every night, or I thinkI'm addicted to XYZ, there are
lots of tests.
The second thing that's tied tothat is our clinicians.
Clinical mental health peopleare trained in how to use those
tests, how to administer them,how to read their results, and
(15:10):
so if you really want to helpfind out, it can't harm anything
, anybody, I think.
I personally think I'm biased alittle bit, but I also go to
therapy and I think everybodywould do well to go to see a
therapist and if someone'sconcerned that they think they
are addicted to something, aclinician is trained in how to
use those tests and help themsee it.
(15:31):
The third thing is ask thepeople who love you.
They will tell you and if theydon't, they're lying.
But I think people who love usmost.
If a loved one came to me andsaid, do you think I have a
problem with XYZ, I wouldprobably tell them.
And if they're telling you it'sa problem, they're telling you
that it's a problem for them andthat's not good.
And you might, like Jeff wassaying before, I think it's only
(15:53):
governing me, but it's not.
And when people go, yeah, Ithink Mike has a problem and
they're honest with you.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
That's probably the better test, not this is really
what's going on with me.
You know the various thingsthat you do is, uh, I'll use the
term self-medication I don'tfeel good, so I'm going to do
something that makes me feelgood.
It may be just the momentary uh, dopamine hit you get from
(16:24):
social media or video games orsomething like that.
It may be I'm going to have adrink.
No, no, I'm going to have threedrinks, or whatever it might be
, because you're solving aproblem.
I don't feel good right now.
You don't quite see.
Oh yeah, I've actuallydeveloped this more than a habit
thing, where this is my go-toresponse to not feeling good and
(16:46):
I can't really control itanymore.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Super good point.
I'll use sleep as an example Inthe clinical mental health
world.
When it comes to anxiety, sleepis a calming skill.
When it comes to depression,sleep is an avoidance and it's a
bad habit.
So, like, if I'm depressed andI sleep too much, I'm just
avoiding dealing with mydepression.
If I'm anxious and anxiety andI have sleepless nights, sleep
(17:09):
is exactly what I need.
We're not talking about, likethe 22 year old coming home for
Thanksgiving and sleeping untilone when he's home for a break.
We're talking people misabusingtheir understanding of a
healthy, good night's sleep orsleeping away.
So what you're talking about,jeff, is avoidance.
I came home from a bad day atwork and the only way for me to
(17:30):
deal with this right now is tohave three martinis Not true,
but true in that that's exactlyhow that person is going to cope
with that day.
So if it becomes the copingskill, then the coping skill is
unhealthy because you're notreally, in the end, dealing with
what you're really troubledabout.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
So if you have identified that you have one of
these addictions that we've kindof talked about, what's really
the next step?
Like, what do you do from there?
I mean, I think you know, maybesome of us, if we're honest,
are just like yeah, I mean, Ireally am on my phone too much,
I mean, and I try to put it downor I try to just be like, oh,
(18:10):
I'm not going to do it, and thenI just find myself doing it
again.
So how do you really solve thatproblem?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Right.
So this is really the heart ofeverything that I would want to
leave anybody with at any placein time.
Number one it's in the Biblethat we speak openly and
honestly.
We call it confession, confessyour sins to one another.
It's in the Bible.
But there's a super deep reasonwhy God would have us openly
(18:41):
and audibly say to a friend inChrist I have a problem and this
is what it is.
Because then that offers thatopportunity for that friend in
Christ to say number one as faras the East is from the West,
jesus loves you and has removedthat sin from you.
It removes all shame and guiltfrom you.
And this is the place to start.
That Christ loves me and hedemonstrated that on the cross
(19:03):
and in the empty tomb is thesolvent to every problem.
Every malady in life is deeplyrooted in the fall.
Either I did something wrong orsomething has caused harm to me
and I found a harmful way toreact to it and respond to it.
So, number one finding aconfidential Christian group of
people.
(19:23):
I call them Christ confessors,and I'm not just talking, just
your pastor.
If it starts with your pastor,super great.
If it starts with your spouse,your best friend, your roommate
in college, if it starts withyour spouse, your best friend,
(19:49):
your roommate in college, thatyou find someone to whom you can
say anything to and you knowthe first thing out of the mouth
is Jesus loves you, godforgives you, I forgive you.
Let's start there and fromthere's avoidance for depression
.
There's also replacement skillsfor that avoidance.
So we start talking abouthealthy skills in the mental
health world to replace theunwanted habits with good ones.
Right A long, long time ago inmy first parish, one of my board
of elders told me, pastor Mike,somebody I think his great
uncle or somebody had told him,when you rid yourself of
(20:12):
something, there's going to be acavity that the devil wants.
So when we identify what thatthing is and leave it, the
devil's going to want to fillthat space quicker than I do.
And so filling that space withwholesome.
What does Paul say?
Whatever is lovely, whatever isnoble, whatever is.
Think about such things thatit's even biblical to say
replace the unwanted behaviorwith lovely, noble, marvelous,
(20:36):
divinely through the word of God, given things.
And that gets built into thesecoping mechanisms dialectal
behavior skills, cognitivebehavioral skills, all of these
things that we find mindfulnessskills, and really some of it is
just going back to our roots ofGod created us to be in his
creation.
God designed us to be withpeople.
God us to be in his creation.
God designed us to be withpeople.
(20:56):
God designed us to have humanconnection.
God designed us to be inworship with him.
God designed us and I think alot of the things that when we
talk about the addictive world,they're very unnatural.
And God says I've given younatural things to help you end
your day positively.
Take those and run.
So that's a start I'm going togive you end your day positively
, take those and run.
So that's a start.
I'm going to give you whatevery one of my clients gets
(21:18):
eventually in session with meand is the close of every
psychoeducational, faith-basedpresentation that I do, and I
called it building your ownwellness plan.
Everybody can be well and thewellness plan has four windows
or doors in it.
The first window is spiritual.
So what is my spiritual growthplan?
And yes, home devotions, goingto church, building a faith
(21:41):
community, but I meanintentionalizing that to
something that works.
When I talk to pastors I sayit's not enough to just be in
the word for your sermons.
What's your devotional plan tobe with Jesus today, just you
and Jesus.
And who are the Christ-centered, focused people?
Who's that Christ confessorgroup that's going to hold you
accountable to your devotionallife, to your talks, to how
(22:03):
you're doing with your faithlife?
So, spiritual is the first door.
Second door is emotional,mental.
So do you have a hobby?
Do you journal?
Do you not like to journal?
Do you go for walks?
Do you take breaks?
Do you know how to manage yourday?
First time I ever went totherapy my therapist the first
thing that that person did wassaid Mike, give me your schedule
, your calendar.
I went what?
(22:23):
Because what does that have todo with my mental health?
And that person very clearlyhelped me understand that I was
creating terrible workboundaries, terrible family
boundaries, terrible familyboundaries, terrible social
boundaries, like my calendar wasan absolute mess.
It was no wonder I was so likecalendaring and scheduling and
blocking off your day and sayingI'm going to work for 20
minutes on a project at work andthen I'm going to take five and
(22:44):
go for a walk.
I'm going to work an hour on uh, this set or the other thing,
and then I'm going to call afriend and call him up or I'm
going to stop and text a joke tosay, you know so, like
governing your day mentally.
I paint.
I'm not super great at it but Ilove to do it and it takes me
to a whole different world.
I love the people who taught mehow to paint.
I love painting with otherpeople.
(23:05):
The third door so spiritual,mental, emotional.
The third door is physical.
So let's talk about addiction.
Say I'm going to, I'm going tocome full clean here, right on
the podcast.
I am sober about eight yearsnow.
So I realized at some point intime in my life that alcohol and
myself is a terrible recipe andthank God and thank the
Christian friends around me thatI have lived a very happy,
(23:28):
social, sober life.
And so then we talk about thephysical.
We talk about what do you putin your body, what do you not
put in your body?
Do you take those walks?
Do you exercise?
I have a gym membership.
I go to the gym not to be abodybuilder, but I go to the gym
to feel good about going to thegym.
And that physical can also dealwith sleep, like, oh man, we're
(23:49):
supposed to get what seven,eight hours and who of us does
that right?
And to get what?
Seven, eight hours, and who ofus does that right?
And the fourth window is social.
So who are my closest friends?
Who are my family?
Where's my Christ confessorgroup?
I don't owe the same emotionalstuff to the mailman that I do
to my wife.
I don't owe the same emotionalweight to the person in the
(24:11):
grocery store that I do to myJesus.
Right?
So we begin to understand thatGod built us to be social, not
to everyone.
So creating social boundariesthat are healthy and good, maybe
it's been a while, and I justneed to say I'm going to tap
into one of my really closefriends that goes we haven't had
coffee in a while.
Let's do it.
I don't care about work, workcan wait, right.
(24:34):
I haven't had a really nicedinner with my wife in weeks.
It's about time.
And not because it's of ouranniversary or not because of
whatever.
We just need that husband-wifetime.
So all of these like healthysocial relationships.
Again, that's how God built us,right.
So those four windows, and Iguarantee you nobody is ever
going to be perfect this side ofheaven.
(24:55):
But I guarantee you nobody isever going to be perfect this
side of heaven.
But I guarantee you if you canbe taught and held accountable
to those four healthy windowsday by day, by day, some of them
I talk about an equalizer, likeall four of those levels, will
bounce around, but if you'regiving attention to those four
windows, people can beataddictions, they can stop bad
habits, they can rid themselvesof unwanted things in their life
(25:15):
and replace them, mostlyimportantly, with Christ and
with the people who are going tobe Christ with them.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And you said too these are day-to-day things.
Yes, every day it's importantto try to work all those areas
each day.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, indeed, I'm not perfect, but I can tell you for
a fact, not a day goes by whenI don't think of all, personally
, my four windows.
Where am I at spiritually?
What was my devotional lifelike today?
What is my social life today?
What is my physical life today?
Did I get my steps on my phone?
Did I beat Rachel, my wife, insteps on her phone, and where am
(25:52):
I?
With those equilibriums?
And I think if you and otherpeople that love you are holding
yourselves accountable to that,lots of even accepted
addictions will start to go away.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean I guess too, justlike kind of going along with
that.
Do you find that people withaddictions does it just depend
on the addiction as to whichfour of those windows aren't
getting the attention that theyneed, or do you see one window
that is constantly hard forpeople to maintain every?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
day.
Oh, that's a really goodquestion and I have two answers
to that question.
Number one in the clinicalmental health world, this is one
of the trickiest questions andand I'm always leaning on
colleagues, on supervisors, onpeople smarter than I am when it
comes to this question.
Like, say, somebody comes withhigh level trauma because of a
(26:45):
crisis, because they were afirst responder, because they
experienced a terrible thing,because as a childhood they were
abused, whatever, whatever, andthey're in an addiction,
substance abuse.
The big, like chicken or eggquestion in therapy world is do
you treat the trauma first orthe alcoholism first or the drug
addiction?
And some people in the worldwill say it depends, but lots of
(27:10):
times we will say we need toget people sober first, then we
can get to the ideal, because alot of times the alcoholism, as
Jeff said before, it's thesymptom of a bigger root.
It's really an abandonment ofwhat's really wrong.
The second part of thatquestion is I don't even know
for myself sometimes, krista, if, like, what caused my physical
(27:34):
well-being to be off today Likesuper good devotion, had a great
time with a great Christianfriend this morning.
I got to paint after supper,but when I look back on it.
I ate terrible junk food.
Today I didn't exercise Like,so my physical one dipped.
I'm just now myself gettingokay at guessing why that is,
(27:55):
and I think again that's a goodreason to see a therapist or
have a Christian friend go.
Yeah, why did you drop on thatone today?
Was it schedule?
Was something else botheringyou?
Ironically and sadly, we can goback to quotes acceptable
addictions.
We can be doing seemingly good,normal things.
(28:17):
We didn't get to this.
But work right, workaholismLike I can be, I can be doing a
70 hour week and go.
I was busy this week.
Was that healthy?
Was that good?
For all of your other threeareas, did you meet your goals?
Why were you busy?
What are you avoiding?
And not going home from work?
And, by the way, I just learnedthis at a workshop in La Crosse
(28:41):
.
The keynote speaker said thatAmericans work 200 hours more
than the next society down,which is Japan culture.
That's five weeks of PTO.
Can Americans give up fiveweeks of PTO and say we're still
just as busy as the busiestother organizations in the world
(29:02):
?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
with the question as well is so many people think,
all right, I mean I have thisdeadline at work or I have this
big project coming up orsomething, and yeah, I mean that
is just going to what's goingto consume my life and I'll work
(29:25):
out when I'm done, or I'llspend more time with my family
when I'm done with this project.
Is it healthy to live life likethat?
And I mean, if not, how do youkind of balance that a little
bit when you're in this cultureof having to meet deadlines?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
It's a really hard line.
The sad reality is, mostoftentimes what's speaking the
loudest in that room is money.
And what's speaking most oftenloudly and just as loudly are
the people who believe thatanswering the money question
will answer the other questions,that if we have enough money as
a corporation, we'll be able todo what we really want to do as
(30:04):
a corporation.
If that corporation is likemaking the best soda and your
mission is to make the best sodaand you believe that you can
make more money to make moresoda, your practices in making
the better soda is going to godown.
It's just a weird thing.
It's not sustainable.
If I could wave a magic wand, Iwould collectively say to
(30:28):
corporate America we're nothelping our families be families
.
We're not helping our spousesbe spouses, parents be parents.
It's a hard balance and I thinkit starts with one person and
that's you.
I find myself doing this and mycoworkers are probably going to
hear this podcast.
It gets to be three o'clock andI'm kind of done doing what I'm
doing and I'm looking aroundthe office building.
(30:49):
I'm going.
There's a lot of people hereand they still have things to do
.
Do I look like a schmuck if Ileave the office and I've
stopped doing that.
I do not guilt myself over that.
I'm done for today and I have awife at home and I have fish to
catch in a lake and painting todo and then I know that's going
to make me well and that'sgoing to serve the people around
me and the people I love well.
It's okay to say that atcorporate world, to say that at
(31:15):
corporate world I'm done fortoday.
If you can't live with that,you're going to have to find
somebody else to do what I dofor you, and that's a big leap
of faith.
But I think that's where itbegins.
That's what we have to do.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
So how can outside people help us?
You kind of talked a little bitabout that some accountability
people.
I guess I'm thinking you knowmore like pastors and other
people as well, but how can ournetwork really support us?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I'm going to cheat a little bit.
Can I tell your audience that Igot to hear your last podcast.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, sure, so.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I know that one of the podcasts that's getting put
out is like specific messages inpastoring, not just in sermons
but in the kinds of things thatthe church does and that the
church means to do, not in asocialistic kind of way, but
genuinely being real about sinand grace in the specific lives
of our people and offering themmessages of certainty and hope
(32:09):
in the very genuine, specificways of their lives.
Pastors having the opportunityto be that space where people
can come and go.
I think I can talk to my pastorabout real things.
I think I can open my heart alittle bit and tell him that I'm
troubled with lots of differentthings and he's going to be the
man who's going to say Jesusloves you and so do I.
I think the other thing thatthe church can do I talk about
(32:32):
this with my own son, who's apastor in Michigan is to avoid
being the problem.
Churches and church lifefamilies get very, very busy in
the name of doing Jesus work andall of a sudden, the very, very
hardworking people in Americafeel like they have to be
hardworking at church, feel likethey have to be on every
committee.
They've got to coach basketballfor the grade school.
(32:54):
They've got to volunteer at theSunday school.
They've got to be at.
The next thing, they got tocome to Arbor Day and the next
thing, you know, the church hasmade our families even more busy
than they can afford to be,instead of assisting them with
ways to do home devotions,family nights you know what?
This is the night you stay homefrom church.
This is the night you stay homefrom everything and then be
(33:16):
moms and dads and husbands andwives and children and
grandchildren so the church andthen people who are really
struggling with the deep things.
I think the stigma is droppingand we're thankful.
I'm personally thankful thatthe stigma is dropping.
People know that it's okay toask for help.
It's okay to see a therapist.
It's okay to see your doctorabout your I think I'm
overeating.
(33:36):
It's okay to see your doctorabout I don't feel well,
something's wrong and I don'tknow how to figure it out.
It's okay to see a psychologistor a med check and see if you
need some medication that willget you on the right track.
It's okay to call a friend thatyou haven't seen since high
school and say can we get coffee?
It's really again, it's aboutbeing connected, but it's also
(33:57):
about retraining the people whoare in charge of our lives.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
And how might you?
You've got someone in your lifemaybe it's your spouse, maybe
it's your brother or sister,friend, maybe even somebody
you're not that close to, butyou're in a position to notice.
And this is somebody that hasone of these acceptable
addictions, or else maybe one ofthe not so acceptable ones that
they think they've got hiddenaway and isn't so.
(34:24):
And you approach them andthey're just like.
You know, this is my thing,it's not really affecting
anybody else, and besides which,it's just a bad habit.
I can just say goodbye at anypoint.
You know I can quit, I justdon't feel like it.
Or you know, I need it rightnow.
If I don't need it tomorrow,that'll be the end of it.
What is the loving, practical,Christian way to approach a
(34:49):
loved one like that?
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I'm hearing two questions, Jeff, and they're
both very good questions.
One is how do I approach thatperson and help them?
The other is how do I help themidentify that they need the
help?
And those may seem very close,but they're uniquely different
questions.
First of all, it's importantfor every one of us to remember
that if we're holding ontosomething that we think is just
(35:12):
us, that it's only me.
I remember way back to highschool days and one of my good
buddies smoking cigarettes washuge in the dorm prep system
that I grew up in, and Iremember one of the older mentor
classmen saying it's my thingand it doesn't affect everybody
else.
Well, if you're smoking in theboy's dorm, it's affecting
everybody.
(35:32):
We now know that scientifically.
But if you're hurting yourself,you're hurting the people you
love.
It's just a fact, right, andyou kind of identified it before
when we were talking aboutunwanted behaviors when it comes
to pornography or whatever.
Like I think I've got this.
But it's also affecting mysleep, my relationships, my my
ability to cognitively workthrough a day.
(35:55):
I think the second part of yourquestion, ironically, was just
asked of me at one of my recentpresentations, and it's such, I
think it's such a vital question.
It's like now it's now, I'm not.
I'm not saying this is for afriend, and you really mean you.
It is really for a friend likethe spouse or the friend or the
college roommate or the highschool classmate that says my
(36:15):
friend's really struggling, howdo I be that person?
It starts number one withjourneying with that person in
such a way that says I'm a safespace for you, you can tell me
anything, I'm not a tattletale,I'm not a judgy.
Judgy, I'm going to forgive you, I'm not going to think less of
you.
And the more you can, one by one, convince that person that
(36:36):
you're a safe space, that you'rea grace person, that you're a
Jesus person, that you are Jesusto that person, the more they
will learn.
To lean into you and be honestwith you is then the next step
of taking them by the arm, maybeeven literally, and saying walk
with me, I will go with you totherapy, I will go with you to
see your pastor, I will go withyou to see a doctor.
(36:59):
It's not just you have aproblem and I think you need
help.
It's a long, loving, gracious,patient building of a trust with
a person that speaks volumes atyour person that they can trust
to say anything to.
And once you get to that trust,then you can start to say would
you go to a therapist, Can Ihelp you schedule the
(37:21):
appointment?
And then the accountabilitystarts happening.
When accountability startshappening, super good things are
going to start happening.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Okay, just real briefly.
I want to turn that around alittle bit.
What if you are the person whohas identified?
I think I have a problem, butthe people in your life that you
should be able to turn to inthe way that you were just
talking about aren't there.
Maybe your spouse is just veryjudgmental, or you feel that he
(37:51):
or she is, or you know yourpastor.
You just have always had theimpression that your pastor just
is not somebody who canunderstand these things, not
somebody you know you can talkto about these things.
So the places that you thinkyou should go aren't safe spaces
and so you don't.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
It's okay.
It's okay to say that's not aspace.
I can go to Number one.
You can't change someone elseand their observation of you.
You can only change yourself,right.
And so if somebody's really atthat point where they go, I've
got a problem and the people whoI think probably are the people
God has put in my life to helpme, won't and can't and I don't
(38:31):
feel safe with that space.
Then again, it's okay to sayI'm going to go get help and
when I start to get help, theway I'm going to change and move
the needle on their perceptionof me is by changing me, not
them.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Any final thoughts?
I know we've talked about a lotof things here and stuff too,
or just anything that you'dreally like to leave people with
.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
My generation 20 years ago.
How many friends do you have?
I would have said I've got 35friends.
I got 45 friends.
I, to this day, am close withall of my high school classmates
.
We're weeks away from evenhaving a dinner and getting
together, If you talk to mygrandfather, and the days of
card clubs and family dinnersand trading houses every weekend
(39:15):
.
Those are not all good habitshappened in those societies, but
they understood who theirfriendships were.
Now, if you were to ask 18 to 25year olds, you would.
You would find that they, theydon't have any friends or one,
and and I I believe a lot ofthat it is not because of the
pandemic, it is not because ofcovid pandemic resurrected the
(39:37):
fact that we were separated fromeach other already into social
media, into phone usage, intoscreen times, into things we
believed to be genuinely realbut turned out to be fake, and
we can't get out of it.
I think of the U2 song.
We're stuck in a moment and wecan't get out of it, and some of
those people are just stuck inthis moment and they can't get
out of it, and I believe theonly way out is to find one, and
(40:02):
then two, and then three peoplethat socially bring us out.
We need as a society, as aChristian society, we need to
band together and get back intogroups.
Some of the best churches thatare growing and flourishing, if
you look at them, are ones whohave gotten people back into
small group, are ones who havegotten people around a band of
(40:24):
fellowship, of people who areopenly and honestly speaking
with one another about theirtrue issues and their true
problems and finding safe placesfor them to heal each other and
to heal the brokennesses of ourworld.
And we need to put our phonesdown.
We need to make healthy meals,we need to go to coffee with one
another, we need our familiesto be families again and not be
(40:44):
divided up in the same home intodifferent rooms with different
screens and different things,and God created us to be
genuinely humanly real with himand with each other, and so I
think the only way for us to getout of this moment is to
abandon all of the fake and getback to genuinely being real
human beings.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Mike.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Thank you, thanks for having me on.
It's fun.
It was deep, but it was fun.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
That's right.
That's right, and we thank allof our listeners, too, for
joining us, and if you have anyquestions on this episode or any
others, you can reach us atlifechallengesus.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
And we look forward to having you back next time.
Thanks a lot, bye.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode of the Life
Challenges podcast fromChristian Life Resources.
Please consider subscribing tothis podcast, giving us a review
wherever you access it andsharing it with friends.
We're sure you have questionson today's topic or other life
issues.
Our goal is to help you throughthese tough topics and we want
(41:53):
you to know we're here to help.
You can submit your questions,as well as comments or
suggestions for future episodesat lifechallengesus or email us
at podcast atchristianliferesourcescom.
In addition to the the podcasts, we include other valuable
information at life challengesus, so be sure to check it out for
more about our parentorganization.
(42:13):
Please visitchristianliferesourcescom.
May god give you wisdom, love,strength and peace in christ for
every life challenge.
For every life challenge.
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