March 1, 2024 • 36 mins
Image: Wittenberg c. 1530 from the host's personal collection.
In May 1536 several prominent Reformed reformers traveled to Wittenberg to confess their understanding of what is received in the sacrament of Holy Communion and who receives it. Luther, Melancthon, and other Lutheran reformers readily signed on in agreement concerning this contentious doctrine. This was seen as a significant breakthrough and a celebrated establishment of fellowship and would later directly influence the Formula of Concord.
Read more about this topic here in Gordon Jensen's book.
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- About the Host
- Benjamin Phelps is a 2014 graduate from Martin Luther College with a Bachelor of Arts with a German emphasis. From there went on to graduate from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 2018.
Ben loves all things history and enjoys traveling. A descendant of over a dozen Lutheran pastors, Ben has an interest in his family roots, especially 19th-century Lutheranism, and has written several papers and journal articles on the topic. His 2018 thesis on Wyneken won the John Harrison Ness award and the Abdel Ross Wentz prize. He is also the recipient of two awards of commendation from the Concordia Historical Institute.
Ben is currently a doctoral student in historical theology through Concordia Seminary's reduced residency program in St. Louis.
- Benjamin Phelps is a 2014 graduate from Martin Luther College with a Bachelor of Arts with a German emphasis. From there went on to graduate from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 2018.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:36):
Welcome back to the LutheranHistory podcast. This episode is
another alternate formatepisode. It is a recording of
the presentation I gave a fewmonths ago at Concordia Lutheran
seminary as part of mycoursework for the class on the
reformed reformation. Of course,the reformed reformation isn't
(00:57):
focused on the LutheranReformation. However, I found
interesting little episode. Thatwas a pretty big deal at the
time that shows a distinctoverlap and interconnection
between some of those whoformerly belong to the reformed
camp in the Reformation, havinga Concord and agreement with the
(01:18):
Lutherans of the Reformationtook place in Wittenberg in
1536. So this presentation thatI gave is largely based on the
work of someone else. It's aglorified beefed up book report.
I did do some primary sourceresearch on the side to back it
up. But this presentation isprimarily based on the work of
(01:40):
Gordon a Jensen, who teaches atthe Lutheran Theological
Seminary in Saskatoon, Canada.
He published his research in abook simply titled, The
Wittenberg, Concord. So whatyou're about to hear is that
presentation, and basically, thebackground information you need
to know if you don't know thisalready, is that during the
Reformation, of course, therewere more reformers and Martin
Luther, the most famous earlyreformer who's tried to do
(02:03):
things a bit differently wasvaguely down in Switzerland, but
also very early on a man namedMartin boots or was in the
German speaking city ofStrasbourg and the far western
part of the Holy Roman EmpireToday part of France but then it
was largely a German speakingpart of the Empire. Well,
anyways, Martin boots are reallyliked Zwingli he also really
(02:26):
like lutherie, one of them toboth get along. The Marburg
colloquy is a famous episodewhere that meeting did take
place. Yet Bootsy his goal forhaving unity between the Zwinger
aliens and the Lutherans did nottake place, the main item of
contention, of course, for thosewho know was the item of the
Lord's Supper, specifically thepresence of Jesus in the
(02:49):
sacrament as friendly and Luthercould not and would not agree
boots or wanted to brush thingsover and say, well, it's all
just a misunderstanding where,you know, we're fighting over
words and such. Luther said,there's, there's no mistake
here. So the presentation isgoing to talk about what
happened when boots are actuallyshifted away from Zwingli. And
(03:10):
more towards Luther and thisgroup of Western and South
German reformers who are kind ofin the middle between the two,
at least for a time gravitatedtowards Luther and they wrote a
formal agreement, a Concord, aconfessional statement, where
boots are and other reformed.
Reformers agreed with MartinLuther on the doctrines of the
(03:34):
Lord's Supper, baptism, and onabsolution. So hopefully, you'll
find this topic interesting.
Again, it's in a differentformat. I have recorded my
PowerPoint presentation withpictures with quotes with maps
with diagrams and all of that,and put it up on YouTube.
Normally, I put those YouTubevideos behind the paywall
Behringer, to, to give somethingspecial for our patrons on
(03:55):
Patreon. But because thisparticular presentation is
probably best seen in aPowerPoint format, I encourage
you if you'd like to sit downand just watch it to go to the
Lutheran history channel andwatch his presentation.
Otherwise, though, it's not abad listen, if you want to just
keep on listening to theWittenberg Concord today on the
podcast. I'm going to start offwith just a little show and tell
(04:21):
because I don't have too manypeople share this with this
image of Wittenberg. I don'tknow if you've seen this one
before. I found it at an onlineauction for a really affordable
and it's from Basel from around1550. It's one of these kind of
world encyclopedias, and it'shand colored. So you may find
(04:43):
this in black and white but thisis like a written originally
hand color. So it's kind ofcool. You can tell how typing is
hard because at the end, I don'tknow if that's backwards or they
just because it's it's a mirrorimage when you are typesetting.
So it's kind of neat littlething, but You know it's from
it's from Basel, and the guy whoput this together some Sebastian
(05:03):
Munster. And he started on thisproject and 1528. The only
public, I think this is from1550. He was constantly updating
it. But I kind of wonder, howdid how did he get this image?
Did he go? Maybe did thedelegation of South German seven
artists with him like how did heget this image is? It's a
question I had. But anyway, thisis the Wittenberg Concord and I
(05:24):
forgot how I actually got onthis this topic, I think it
appeared in a footnote or just apassing reference. But I thought
this is pretty interesting,because Martin boots, sir, and
the South Germans who are kindof Zwingli leaning suddenly kind
of make almost a confessionaldiamond is a confession of faith
(05:46):
that Martin Luther signs, howcould you know, boots are and
Martin Luther signed the samedocument. And I think that was
pretty significant. Or at leastinteresting, potentially. The
context for this was the couplethings going on. He had the
small called IQ League, this isthe era of trying to get
political alliances. And one ofthe questions is, can we do
(06:10):
this? With theologicalunderstanding, how unified do we
have to be this is going on inthe background. Of course, this
is following the Marburgcolloquy, which is depending on
your take, but kind of a giantfailure in that regard. So this
is kind of this isn't quite tryto, but it is kind of the follow
(06:31):
up on that. So I'm going to thispresentation is going to work
with the assumption that you'realready familiar with kind of
Zwingli and bootsector andLuthers view on these things.
We're gonna jump on the maindoctrines here, we're gonna jump
into it. The two main issuesthat they had to deal with were
really the Lord's Supper, andthen kind of fellowship is or
(06:52):
ecumenism, whatever you want tocall it is kind of that the
issue in the background and thebook I'm relying on here is
here. Dr. Bodie, put me on tothis. So it's, it's all in here,
and basically doing a bookreport on this. They, they kind
of cover ecumenism. The author,author is Gordon Jensen, I don't
(07:16):
know him, but he's, at least atthe time of printing and 2018
was a teacher at the LutheranTheological Seminary in
Saskatoon and Canada. I thinkaffiliated with the ELCA in
America would be that, thatbrand trip so it's that's kind
of the perspective is comingfrom. So the final chapter talks
about, well, what can how can weuse this for ecumenism today,
(07:39):
and I didn't really get intothat, but that's kind of the
angle he's taking as far asapplication. But the main
doctrine that's at the center,the center of this is the Lord's
Supper, we'll get into it laterbut just for so you know what
it's really going to get at theycover the sacraments, Lord,
separate baptism, and then theyhave a article absolution.
That's all this document is.
(08:03):
Nothing more, nothing less justgoing to cover these three.
Here's another map. We've had alot of maps. I don't know if you
show this one yet. This is alittle bit later of Switzerland.
This is basically showingreformed, not reformed. So the
issue is, of course, you want toget as many Protestants united
as as possible and we alreadyhad the map of Strasburg up to
(08:24):
the north on the Rhine River Themy drawing my pointer, the Rhine
River, though is kind of whereit says Margrave ative BOD and
that's where it is you justfollow the river north there
Strasburg. Okay, so we havethere's a problem between boot
sir and Luther boot, sir, hadbeen republishing some of Luther
(08:46):
and bulgan hog and stuff,especially about communion
because we're going to get onthe same page. What do we teach
on the Lord's Supper, but bootsare was editing it a little bit
apparently, when he republishedit, I think in Strasburg is
where he was doing that. And hemade Luther sound like he agreed
with singing. So Luther hadsomething to say about that. He
(09:10):
said that boots are had seizedmy book and loaded it and
smeared it with his dumb. Ofcourse, Luther would say that.
Sure, there's some psychoanalystwho just went all over that. But
then he also at at Marburg. Soyou met boots, or, you know,
face to face. You called him anaughty boy. Or a rascal was
there the translation for that?
So how can these guys have aConcord have harmony, right?
(09:33):
That's kind of the definition ofConcord, one of them in
agreement with this kind ofpersonal relationship, and one
of the points of this booktowards the end for ecumenism is
like, it's good to have face toface meetings. That's how you
get stuff done. Well, not atMarburg, that didn't go over
very well, because you had thedung smearing naughty boy, and
Luther. Okay. So a lot of thisis is context. If I could sit
(09:56):
here I could read you theWittenberg, conch. heard, it
takes two and a half pages I'dbe done and third of my time. So
I'm going to have to give yousome context for the importance
because this is kind of the onlytime we're really delving into
Lutheran stuff per se. Asprimary source figures, your
timeline, you got Marburgcolloquy, and October 15 29.
(10:21):
Died of Augsburg is less than ayear later, of course, got the
kind of birth of the Lutheranchurch there with the Augsburg
confession. As you recall fromour reading, then he had the
TETRA politan confession for thewannabes. You know, the guys who
didn't quite make it. The rumpof the German delegation, you
(10:42):
know, poor cities isn't reallyall that much they grow. Of
course they more than that, butthat's the confession that comes
through, they were looking atwhat they say about the Lord's
Supper in a little more detail.
But then, just the very nextmonth, Blitzer isn't giving up.
He says this, I want this tohappen. I guess people
questioned his motives. Luthoris not very trusting at first,
(11:02):
you know, is this just forpolitical reasons, but but boots
are is is convinced that this isa this isn't a disagreement on
actual doctrine. It's more of asemantic issue. Like we're, it's
a quibble about words. I havethe lat the Greek phrase in here
somewhere. It's actually yes.
(11:27):
logo. Makia. Thank you. Yeah.
That's just an awesome word,isn't it? Yeah, it's Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So so and you know, he canbe sincere, and yet, they're
viewing the level of importanceof this at two different levels.
So marbre colloquy, the headagreement between the Zwingli
and South South Germans is whathow this book describes the
(11:47):
Buddha and his friends. Youknow, are we here just for a
general consensus? Or is thislike, do or die doctrine and
Lutherans? Our Do or Diedoctrine and the rest are more
political consensus? Let's see.
And then. Boozer does visitLuther at the Colbert castle
(12:13):
where he's hanging out becausehe can't go to Augsburg and
that's September 15 30. Andhere, this is where things turn
around. He doesn't get called anaughty little boy, at least as
far as we know. Luther was nowcautiously optimistic because
because booster was reallysaying, you know, we can make
make make it, we can make someprogress here. He was trying to
(12:36):
convince Luther that Zwingli wasnow open to a real presence
ideal. Luther wasn't buying thatbut he thought it well, if
Bootsy is trying so hard toconvince me. Maybe he actually
does believe in real presence atleast. Okay. The correspondence
continues with her out to bootshere and January 15 31. So
again, this is all really closetogether just months apart from
(12:57):
each development. He said it wasdangerous to force a verbal
agreement and then have us infellow fellowship or in
communion with each other whilethe two parties are believing
two different things he said itcould actually it's like
blasphemy he was using wordslike that you can really wreck
your soul kind of kind of stuff.
And this is where theinterpretation side gets
(13:20):
interesting. And Jensen saying,Well, this is a you know, put on
a category of altar fellowship.
For some reason, I'd be might bemore inclined to view but he's
just talking about fellowship ingeneral on a unified agreement
of doctrine across the board, ithappens to be about communion
that I didn't really go intothat but I think those are some
(13:41):
historical questions that haveplace for dialogue today what
was the fellowship issue herejust communion or agreement on
doctrine or all the above let'ssee what's what's next here we
got Zwingli now though, isending all pretense of agreement
with with loose friends. Andthis is writing to boots are
(14:04):
some boots who really can't winand maybe it's obvious to us in
hindsight Well, they've twoopposite positions. They're not
budging you can't get everyoneto like you. So while he went to
Marburg you know, Zwingli kindof like boots or, and boots was
kind of going over to Luther andthat was nice. To me. It almost
seems like there's jealousy overthe two first generation
reformers Well, you don't likeme you like him? You know, that
(14:26):
kind of thing. And it's aboutdoctrine, but I think
personality is is involved here.
For sure. So we actually getboots are apologizing to Zwingli
said I'm sorry for wasting yourtime. With this, it says I will
no longer quote harass you for aConcord so boots or breaks with
(14:47):
him to me a little hand myselfbut that's what's going on here.
So the TETRA policy confessiongives us context. Now you get
the falls right between Marburgand closer to marbre than it
does to the Wittenberg Concord,which is in 1536. By the way, if
I didn't mention that earlier,um, here's Wolfgang capito. So
this is kind of like I said, therump Protestants, the guys who
(15:10):
didn't quite go on along withthe Augsburg confession, boots
or wasn't allowed to have apartial subscription to it. So
they came up with this document.
As you may recall, when theytalked about the sacraments,
they talked about an outwardword, sacred symbols visible
signs of invisible grace, okay,that sounds you know, more
(15:33):
reforms of England baptismthough they're pretty clear that
washes away sin saves us butalso made the comparison
circumcision. And this is kindof the interesting phrase for
the Lord separate Christ Danes.
Remember that supposed to meanto give his true Body and Blood
to be truly eaten and drunk forfood and drink of souls? Okay,
so that's, they're defining itthat way. So, but again, it's,
(15:57):
it's, you know, maybe can we seesee some common ground here? And
they're kind of likeShakespeare, I think they doth
protest too much a little bit.
Well, we take this veryseriously very religiously, but
I think they're trying to provewe're not these crazy Anabaptist
so we're not we don't have acrude idea about this. This is
(16:17):
something sacred. Okay. Oh,yeah, here's here's the break
with with Swingley Zwingli.
Also, considered boots are nowto be politically motivated by
Jakub storm and other civilleaders and Strausberg you got
this gotta have this alliancegot to have this alliance. So
he's, once he stops agreeingwith with Swingley on everything
(16:40):
that he's pretty much calls himyou're giving into Luther. Okay,
back back to the timeline, then.
How can progress possiblycontinue? Well, if Zwingli dies
and Lachlan, Pontius dies, wellthen always willingly, willingly
died in October, I think Imissed that point. Well, you
(17:01):
have the two personal obstaclesare gone. So it was booster, not
only thing so I can, I can bringmy people but maybe I can still
get the Swiss of Swingleypersonally isn't involved. So
the first Basel confession thatwe looked at, and then the
constant articles are constants.
That's a city on Lake Constance,northern Switzerland. So Bootsy
is putting together stuff,Lutherans are ready to talk,
(17:25):
they're open to talking, we needto kind of come up with with our
position. And by sheercoincidence, Luther comes up
with his pre meeting notes froma length and he can't traveled
to Castle. And Lincoln's gonnahave a pre meeting for the
Wittenberg, Concord. So we'regonna look at those two
documents briefly. The otherthing, the background is the
fall of the this is a fun name,the Telfer a fun one stir, and
(17:48):
anyone know what that is. It'slike the Baptist empire of
monster realm of monster. So theAnabaptist went crazy took over
a monster. There's books. DanCarlin did like a four or five
hour podcast on it. It's crazystuff. But that's radical
reformation. But some apparent Ijust learned this from the book,
some of these radicals who aredoing forced adult baptism like
(18:10):
it, the edge of a sword pointlike this is it gets culty you
get multiple wives marry me oryou die. Like literally, that's
what's going on there. Some ofthose people had come from
Strasburg and moved up toMunster. So it's a little close
to home. What do we think aboutbaptism? So that's in the
(18:31):
background to immediate contexton the timeline, they have the
first Helvetic confession andFebruary 15 36 You have the
Wittenburg articles, you knowthat those are set right? That's
when Henry the Eighth sent hisdelegation right. So there
again, Protestant Alliance talk.
Then you finally have theWittenberg Concord is in May,
(18:53):
they met for about a week andWittenberg. Okay. So, again,
brief context, what are theytalking about in the sacraments
here in Basel and 1534? As anearly Lutheran some some that
was a criticism from the otherreformed they say the true Body
and Blood of Christ is offeredto us with the bread and wine.
(19:16):
Okay, that's a third of the wayto Luthers catechism definition
right. Christ is present in hisholy supper. Okay. So that's
yeah, they're getting they'regetting there. So now we have
the constants articles like Isaid, this is preparing for the
preliminary meeting. Boots whocomes up with these points with
his South German northern Swissfriends says with the visible
(19:41):
things of bread and wine, thetrue body and True Blood of our
Lord Jesus Christ are trulypresented and distributed. I
don't think we would throw theheresy flag at that. That one.
Anyone? Yeah, just like a yellowyou just yeah. yeah I don't know
(20:03):
so don't don't throw it at mefor thinking that's okay and
let's see have you know I don'tI don't see a problem with that
this is also keep talkingChristology Jesus as true God
and man is presented anddistributed. Okay, so
significant Oh this was that wasthe
(20:24):
boot boot sir. Yeah, and friendsI think but yeah boot sir. Yeah,
this was on the backside of myWittenberg image so colored
Luther put on there probably nothis best image but it's mine
though some sharing so leucharsthoughts on December 7 He said
(20:45):
there but this is what he'ssaying. And Bucha saying, well,
it's just a Mako logo Makia youknow, battle about words. He's
like, No, there's nomisunderstanding you were wrong
at Marburg so he's not he's notwilling to yield the point. But
based on what's coming out ofSwitzerland you know in Basel
are the are constants he's like,Okay, this can there's there's
(21:06):
we can work with that. He washe's going to emphasize the
action of God in the sacramentsyou know, arrow coming down from
heaven. He's doing stuff saysChrist is truly presented,
distributed and received andeaten. He's eaten to okay. But
Christ's body isn't chewedanymore. So that's his one main
(21:28):
concession from Marburg. Okay,we're not chewing Christ's body
moving in this realm ofsacramental union. Okay, but
they must concede at leastyou're holding Christ. You may
not be chewing chewing Christ,but you're holding Christ. So
it's very interesting. You'reusing the senses. Now you can I
do I see Christ Am I tasting youknow what? It's getting pretty
(21:49):
detailed here. Okay, and then wehave the other kind of
background document that wetalked about the first Helvetic
confession speaks in categoriesof sign and substance. The signs
are received by the body thesubstance faith alone. Baptism
is regeneration intended forchildren. Again, get the Telfer
(22:12):
icon Munsters is in thebackground here, and communion
Christ truly offers his body andblood the bread and wine are
highly significant holy signsagain, protesting that we're not
crazy about this true communionof the Body and Blood is
affirmed believers are presentedwith spiritual things that they
signify. So kind of a spiritualpresence. There's clearly a
(22:34):
distinction between spiritualand real, though it's not quite
quite there. Okay, now we'reactually at the windbreak
Concord got the background, May15 36. So the delegation of
South Germans were supposed tomeet Lutheran Eisenach, and if
you've been in Germany, you dothe Luther tour. You know, the
Wartburg, is kind of in thecorner. Everything else is to
(22:54):
the east and north a bit. Sothis was kind of the the meeting
point, because Luther is stillunder the band, he's not allowed
to leave Saxony. So this is theconvenient spot. But Luther is
sick. And they say let's move tograndma. And the south Germans
is boots to say, You know what,we'll just go to Wittenberg.
Like, we're already we'realready 75% of the way there,
(23:14):
we're just gonna go all the way.
So that's how it ended up beingin Wittenberg itself. So this is
the word I think we talked. Didyou mentioned that earlier.
exhibit is what does it mean?
Yeah, that but that's translatedas in the Wittenberg, Concord
and English as is offered,exhibited? Well, this is a main
(23:35):
word and part of the point inthis book is like I said, the
document is so short, thatJensen is say reconstructing but
he's adding in all this context.
They said this one word, theyall signed to this one word, but
he's pretty convinced they kindof walked away with different
understandings of what this wordmeant. So that's maybe you know,
why don't why don't we all stillsigned to the Wittenberg,
(23:57):
Concord? Well, it wasinsufficient for the true
purpose of the document. Well,here's Luthers view. Jensen
summarizes four points. That'snot Zingales, translation or
understanding of show signify orpoint to, but Christ is
distributed, to hit to give hisforgiving presents, and
(24:20):
challenges the Swiss separationof the cross and the sacrament,
right the benefit of the crossis kind of wrapped up and, and
received in Christ in thesacrament, but it's also meant
to reject any Transubstantiationor impersonation, while joining
the forgiveness of the cross. Sothat past event is present right
(24:40):
there in the sacrament. And hispoint to is with just this just
distribution is the proclamationof the Word. And Jensen says
this one word is the key tounderstanding the real presence,
debate and his opinion So thethe other phrase is company
(25:03):
which is you know just with thebread so boots are preferred
with the bread he didn't reallylike in or under which course
Luther we all in our catechismuse those three words. Boots are
likes company though with thebred to show sacramental union
with believers if the brand thebody are being multi meaning and
(25:25):
avoids impersonation, you knowthe word in may sound kind of
like an incarnation with orimpersonation right? Sets
parallels with the body ofChrist as I said. So who another
thing is who receives the Lordseparate this is usually If I
(25:45):
hear one, I've heard one thingabout the Wittenberg, Concord,
it's kind of the litmus test ofAre you really a Lutheran, if
you say, an unbeliever alsoreceives Christ, right. And
that's, that's the test and thatkind of comes from from this,
which part of it at least. So,they together in the document in
the Concord they reject Donnaautism, they don't use that
(26:08):
word. But basically, it's notthe worthiness of the Minister,
that gives the sacrament itsvalidity, validity, they come up
with three get categories ofwell, what kind of people could
possibly receive we have thegodly the pious, using Latin
terms, the ungodly, and theunworthy. And they they, they
kind of divided ungodly andunworthy to kind of make
(26:29):
everyone happy. But Jensen issaying the Lutherans and the
boots rights, if you want tocall them that had different
understandings of unworthy or atleast different nuances on it.
Louis friends are sticking tothe center St. Idea. We're all
unworthy taking it anyway.
(26:50):
Right. So the unworthy,basically everyone receives them
anyway. Right? Well, the SouthChairman's would prefer to think
of unworthy as Billy, the not sogood believers, if you're
struggling in your faith, youstill, you're unworthy, but
you're still receiving it. Okay.
But they still they say everyoneis receiving Christ in this
document. The Lutherans aregoing to emphasize that
(27:12):
worthiness of the receiptrecipient does not validate the
sacrament. So both ends both theminister distributing and the
people receiving that is notwhat makes it valid. It's the
word. This document, though,does not directly address
Christological issues. So yeah,that's the chief article, if you
can call it that of, of a twoand a half page document, it's
on the Lord's Supper. They dohave items on baptism. This is
(27:35):
coming towards the end of thedocument, but they say we do not
understand God's working inchildren. So they're trying to
avoid the rational explanationfor everything. Needing to
explain how it works. They lookat the promise of the word for
the importance and efficacy ofbaptism. So both everyone there
affirmed infant baptism,regeneration, baptism. Jenson
(27:58):
brings in the context illusionsheld that faith was possible
prior to baptism, and says thiswas offensive to the boots or in
the south Germans. Because theyfocused on you know, well,
baptism is the thing that givesyou the bath of regeneration. We
don't see any other way it'spossible Lutherans like the John
(28:18):
the Baptist story, which I had aseminary prof who really didn't
like that application. So theyfound that very interesting that
at this time in place, you know,they're holding out hope for
babies outside of baptism.
Without under saying weunderstand how it all works or
(28:39):
what happens. So the southGermans are going a little bit
deeper than maybe the Lutheranthing they're saying they have a
comb Aqua to with the waterbecause they want to avoid like
a holy water concept to bothwanting to avoid ex opera opera
Otto, but neither side or thedocument itself does not mention
(29:01):
the issues of original sin.
Okay, we also have absolution isthe final article here. It's
pretty much taken from theAugsburg confession, preserves
private confession andabsolution but also says don't
make it mandatory. So this, Iguess, no big surprises here.
But private confession is seenas useful and pastoral Lutherans
(29:21):
Jensen says they're always goingto focus on the gospel
proclamation of the rite ofabsolution while the south
Germans or he says are a littlemore focused on the confessional
right itself okay real quickjust showing you where this is a
scam straight from the book it'sreally hard to see probably at
that that angle. Saxony rememberit's it's its own country really
(29:45):
there. We're dealing with a lotof cities though for the rest
but every basically if it's onthere, it accepted the
Wittenberg Concord concludinginteresting and if Basel itself
inconstant so you get to Swisscities that they went along with
this. This is your delegation,your reformed or South German. I
(30:08):
think got the Lutherans. Luthersaid at the end this weekend
accepts you now as brothers inChrist in regard to these three
articles. So again, your div andfellowship, you know, okay, is
he doing kind of unit stuff now?
Or you're not? I don't know.
(30:29):
They really look at that toomuch. But you have, you know,
Wolfgang musculus. Capitalbooster, probably the three main
guys that I recognize from ourreadings. So I guess the, the
question is, was this a failureor success? Or not? So this, the
(30:49):
Swiss weren't really convinced.
Apart from Basel, so if you'resaying, Well, it's the Zwingli.
Ins and Lutherans are gettingtogether, the answer is clearly
no. But what did happen was hehad a South German, really West
German to southwest Germanacceptance of it and conclusion
of the book is that they're notreally Zwingli ins. Maybe
(31:10):
they're not Lutheran, butthey're definitely more Lutheran
than than Swingley. Andaccording to this document,
boots you can I don't think it'sa term to be a Bootsy right, but
it's kind of what what they werebut Bootsy Wright's gonna get
along with it, Lutherans onthese things. The the main
takeaway, for one of thehistorians looked at this,
(31:31):
there's consensus not conquered.
So it's not exactly a statementof unified faith, but at least
consensus. It also influenced melengthens 15 4040 variadic, and
the language used there was wasfound again, I guess the
biggest, like legacy forLutherans today is that the
(31:54):
formula of Concord has directquotes straight from this
document. So there was stillreferencing it decades later,
and found it at more thanadequate to, to talk about
things such as the worthiness ofrecipients. And they made sure
we know that company means alsoin and under so as a starting
(32:14):
point, at least for some ofthose articles. So it was it was
a processing, you know, theSaxons pretty much. I mean,
they're all right there.
Wittenburg. Who else are goingto ask if Lutheran Millington
sign on to it? charlatan signedit later, I believe, to his kind
of the government signing off onit. And you know, the Secretary
of the lector Yeah, we're good.
(32:35):
And that's the nice thing abouthaving the electorate of Saxony,
that's this whole region, justin a, you know, 30 seconds of
signing the whole region now isfalls into line, all these other
cities, you have to go to thecity council's and get talk this
through. And that's a big, youknow, geopolitical difference.
That was a challenge, perhaps ofgetting conquered. But it
(32:56):
happened in in those cities.
It's called a comp card. Right.
So it's an agreement, but Right,it was, it was limited sort of
limited purposes. And I didn'thave the quote right up on here.
But, you know, Luther, realizedthat you don't need to have full
doctrinal agreement, to have apolitical agreement, he says you
(33:20):
can make countries can makealliances, whether or not you
agree on your faith, you know,kind of the two kingdoms idea.
So well, you know, kind of twodifferent levels, that's almost
flipped like the Lutherans takethe doctrine more seriously than
just, you know, a generalgeneral vibe, but then the
reformed are going to take thepolitical aspect more seriously.
(33:43):
There's another document inthere we didn't get to about
what do you do with thegovernment taking over church
lands and they had oppositeresponses to that as well. So
and it says, it starts off thepreamble preamble is you know
boots are and his friends and itsays they believe this they
believe that and it's some viewit as a concession by boot sir.
(34:05):
And friends that maybe shouldhave made that much more clear
in a way like Lutheran lengthenor, you know, signing off on
Yep, they made their confession.
They were wrong. We were right.
Doesn't it isn't said that way,but they're basically sounding
like Lutherans at thisWittenberg Concord? And they
said, Okay, we examined that,you know, almost like a
confirmation examination. Theysaid what they were supposed to
(34:26):
say. We can now say we agree onthese three articles. So it's
much less of two two sidescoming together and hashing
things out. But depending on whoyou ask, it may be seem to the
Lutherans that these guys aremaking a different kind of
confession, right. Confession,confession. All right. That is
(34:46):
it for our presentation on theWittenberg, Concord. Hopefully
you found that somewhatinteresting. Again, if you'd
like to watch more and see moreof the information with images
and quotes, in a better formatthan a pod gasps please go to
the Lutheran History Channel onYouTube where you can watch the
presentation there. If you'dlike to see more YouTube videos
(35:08):
behind the scenes content, youcan always become a patron on
our Patreon
Welcome back to the LutheranHistory podcast. This episode is
another alternate formatepisode. It is a recording of
the presentation I gave a fewmonths ago at Concordia Lutheran
seminary as part of mycoursework for the class on the
reformed reformation. Of course,the reformed reformation isn't
(00:57):
focused on the LutheranReformation. However, I found
interesting little episode. Thatwas a pretty big deal at the
time that shows a distinctoverlap and interconnection
between some of those whoformerly belong to the reformed
camp in the Reformation, havinga Concord and agreement with the
(01:18):
Lutherans of the Reformationtook place in Wittenberg in
1536. So this presentation thatI gave is largely based on the
work of someone else. It's aglorified beefed up book report.
I did do some primary sourceresearch on the side to back it
up. But this presentation isprimarily based on the work of
(01:40):
Gordon a Jensen, who teaches atthe Lutheran Theological
Seminary in Saskatoon, Canada.
He published his research in abook simply titled, The
Wittenberg, Concord. So whatyou're about to hear is that
presentation, and basically, thebackground information you need
to know if you don't know thisalready, is that during the
Reformation, of course, therewere more reformers and Martin
Luther, the most famous earlyreformer who's tried to do
(02:03):
things a bit differently wasvaguely down in Switzerland, but
also very early on a man namedMartin boots or was in the
German speaking city ofStrasbourg and the far western
part of the Holy Roman EmpireToday part of France but then it
was largely a German speakingpart of the Empire. Well,
anyways, Martin boots are reallyliked Zwingli he also really
(02:26):
like lutherie, one of them toboth get along. The Marburg
colloquy is a famous episodewhere that meeting did take
place. Yet Bootsy his goal forhaving unity between the Zwinger
aliens and the Lutherans did nottake place, the main item of
contention, of course, for thosewho know was the item of the
Lord's Supper, specifically thepresence of Jesus in the
(02:49):
sacrament as friendly and Luthercould not and would not agree
boots or wanted to brush thingsover and say, well, it's all
just a misunderstanding where,you know, we're fighting over
words and such. Luther said,there's, there's no mistake
here. So the presentation isgoing to talk about what
happened when boots are actuallyshifted away from Zwingli. And
(03:10):
more towards Luther and thisgroup of Western and South
German reformers who are kind ofin the middle between the two,
at least for a time gravitatedtowards Luther and they wrote a
formal agreement, a Concord, aconfessional statement, where
boots are and other reformed.
Reformers agreed with MartinLuther on the doctrines of the
(03:34):
Lord's Supper, baptism, and onabsolution. So hopefully, you'll
find this topic interesting.
Again, it's in a differentformat. I have recorded my
PowerPoint presentation withpictures with quotes with maps
with diagrams and all of that,and put it up on YouTube.
Normally, I put those YouTubevideos behind the paywall
Behringer, to, to give somethingspecial for our patrons on
(03:55):
Patreon. But because thisparticular presentation is
probably best seen in aPowerPoint format, I encourage
you if you'd like to sit downand just watch it to go to the
Lutheran history channel andwatch his presentation.
Otherwise, though, it's not abad listen, if you want to just
keep on listening to theWittenberg Concord today on the
podcast. I'm going to start offwith just a little show and tell
(04:21):
because I don't have too manypeople share this with this
image of Wittenberg. I don'tknow if you've seen this one
before. I found it at an onlineauction for a really affordable
and it's from Basel from around1550. It's one of these kind of
world encyclopedias, and it'shand colored. So you may find
(04:43):
this in black and white but thisis like a written originally
hand color. So it's kind ofcool. You can tell how typing is
hard because at the end, I don'tknow if that's backwards or they
just because it's it's a mirrorimage when you are typesetting.
So it's kind of neat littlething, but You know it's from
it's from Basel, and the guy whoput this together some Sebastian
(05:03):
Munster. And he started on thisproject and 1528. The only
public, I think this is from1550. He was constantly updating
it. But I kind of wonder, howdid how did he get this image?
Did he go? Maybe did thedelegation of South German seven
artists with him like how did heget this image is? It's a
question I had. But anyway, thisis the Wittenberg Concord and I
(05:24):
forgot how I actually got onthis this topic, I think it
appeared in a footnote or just apassing reference. But I thought
this is pretty interesting,because Martin boots, sir, and
the South Germans who are kindof Zwingli leaning suddenly kind
of make almost a confessionaldiamond is a confession of faith
(05:46):
that Martin Luther signs, howcould you know, boots are and
Martin Luther signed the samedocument. And I think that was
pretty significant. Or at leastinteresting, potentially. The
context for this was the couplethings going on. He had the
small called IQ League, this isthe era of trying to get
political alliances. And one ofthe questions is, can we do
(06:10):
this? With theologicalunderstanding, how unified do we
have to be this is going on inthe background. Of course, this
is following the Marburgcolloquy, which is depending on
your take, but kind of a giantfailure in that regard. So this
is kind of this isn't quite tryto, but it is kind of the follow
(06:31):
up on that. So I'm going to thispresentation is going to work
with the assumption that you'realready familiar with kind of
Zwingli and bootsector andLuthers view on these things.
We're gonna jump on the maindoctrines here, we're gonna jump
into it. The two main issuesthat they had to deal with were
really the Lord's Supper, andthen kind of fellowship is or
(06:52):
ecumenism, whatever you want tocall it is kind of that the
issue in the background and thebook I'm relying on here is
here. Dr. Bodie, put me on tothis. So it's, it's all in here,
and basically doing a bookreport on this. They, they kind
of cover ecumenism. The author,author is Gordon Jensen, I don't
(07:16):
know him, but he's, at least atthe time of printing and 2018
was a teacher at the LutheranTheological Seminary in
Saskatoon and Canada. I thinkaffiliated with the ELCA in
America would be that, thatbrand trip so it's that's kind
of the perspective is comingfrom. So the final chapter talks
about, well, what can how can weuse this for ecumenism today,
(07:39):
and I didn't really get intothat, but that's kind of the
angle he's taking as far asapplication. But the main
doctrine that's at the center,the center of this is the Lord's
Supper, we'll get into it laterbut just for so you know what
it's really going to get at theycover the sacraments, Lord,
separate baptism, and then theyhave a article absolution.
That's all this document is.
(08:03):
Nothing more, nothing less justgoing to cover these three.
Here's another map. We've had alot of maps. I don't know if you
show this one yet. This is alittle bit later of Switzerland.
This is basically showingreformed, not reformed. So the
issue is, of course, you want toget as many Protestants united
as as possible and we alreadyhad the map of Strasburg up to
(08:24):
the north on the Rhine River Themy drawing my pointer, the Rhine
River, though is kind of whereit says Margrave ative BOD and
that's where it is you justfollow the river north there
Strasburg. Okay, so we havethere's a problem between boot
sir and Luther boot, sir, hadbeen republishing some of Luther
(08:46):
and bulgan hog and stuff,especially about communion
because we're going to get onthe same page. What do we teach
on the Lord's Supper, but bootsare was editing it a little bit
apparently, when he republishedit, I think in Strasburg is
where he was doing that. And hemade Luther sound like he agreed
with singing. So Luther hadsomething to say about that. He
(09:10):
said that boots are had seizedmy book and loaded it and
smeared it with his dumb. Ofcourse, Luther would say that.
Sure, there's some psychoanalystwho just went all over that. But
then he also at at Marburg. Soyou met boots, or, you know,
face to face. You called him anaughty boy. Or a rascal was
there the translation for that?
So how can these guys have aConcord have harmony, right?
(09:33):
That's kind of the definition ofConcord, one of them in
agreement with this kind ofpersonal relationship, and one
of the points of this booktowards the end for ecumenism is
like, it's good to have face toface meetings. That's how you
get stuff done. Well, not atMarburg, that didn't go over
very well, because you had thedung smearing naughty boy, and
Luther. Okay. So a lot of thisis is context. If I could sit
(09:56):
here I could read you theWittenberg, conch. heard, it
takes two and a half pages I'dbe done and third of my time. So
I'm going to have to give yousome context for the importance
because this is kind of the onlytime we're really delving into
Lutheran stuff per se. Asprimary source figures, your
timeline, you got Marburgcolloquy, and October 15 29.
(10:21):
Died of Augsburg is less than ayear later, of course, got the
kind of birth of the Lutheranchurch there with the Augsburg
confession. As you recall fromour reading, then he had the
TETRA politan confession for thewannabes. You know, the guys who
didn't quite make it. The rumpof the German delegation, you
(10:42):
know, poor cities isn't reallyall that much they grow. Of
course they more than that, butthat's the confession that comes
through, they were looking atwhat they say about the Lord's
Supper in a little more detail.
But then, just the very nextmonth, Blitzer isn't giving up.
He says this, I want this tohappen. I guess people
questioned his motives. Luthoris not very trusting at first,
(11:02):
you know, is this just forpolitical reasons, but but boots
are is is convinced that this isa this isn't a disagreement on
actual doctrine. It's more of asemantic issue. Like we're, it's
a quibble about words. I havethe lat the Greek phrase in here
somewhere. It's actually yes.
(11:27):
logo. Makia. Thank you. Yeah.
That's just an awesome word,isn't it? Yeah, it's Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So so and you know, he canbe sincere, and yet, they're
viewing the level of importanceof this at two different levels.
So marbre colloquy, the headagreement between the Zwingli
and South South Germans is whathow this book describes the
(11:47):
Buddha and his friends. Youknow, are we here just for a
general consensus? Or is thislike, do or die doctrine and
Lutherans? Our Do or Diedoctrine and the rest are more
political consensus? Let's see.
And then. Boozer does visitLuther at the Colbert castle
(12:13):
where he's hanging out becausehe can't go to Augsburg and
that's September 15 30. Andhere, this is where things turn
around. He doesn't get called anaughty little boy, at least as
far as we know. Luther was nowcautiously optimistic because
because booster was reallysaying, you know, we can make
make make it, we can make someprogress here. He was trying to
(12:36):
convince Luther that Zwingli wasnow open to a real presence
ideal. Luther wasn't buying thatbut he thought it well, if
Bootsy is trying so hard toconvince me. Maybe he actually
does believe in real presence atleast. Okay. The correspondence
continues with her out to bootshere and January 15 31. So
again, this is all really closetogether just months apart from
(12:57):
each development. He said it wasdangerous to force a verbal
agreement and then have us infellow fellowship or in
communion with each other whilethe two parties are believing
two different things he said itcould actually it's like
blasphemy he was using wordslike that you can really wreck
your soul kind of kind of stuff.
And this is where theinterpretation side gets
(13:20):
interesting. And Jensen saying,Well, this is a you know, put on
a category of altar fellowship.
For some reason, I'd be might bemore inclined to view but he's
just talking about fellowship ingeneral on a unified agreement
of doctrine across the board, ithappens to be about communion
that I didn't really go intothat but I think those are some
(13:41):
historical questions that haveplace for dialogue today what
was the fellowship issue herejust communion or agreement on
doctrine or all the above let'ssee what's what's next here we
got Zwingli now though, isending all pretense of agreement
with with loose friends. Andthis is writing to boots are
(14:04):
some boots who really can't winand maybe it's obvious to us in
hindsight Well, they've twoopposite positions. They're not
budging you can't get everyoneto like you. So while he went to
Marburg you know, Zwingli kindof like boots or, and boots was
kind of going over to Luther andthat was nice. To me. It almost
seems like there's jealousy overthe two first generation
reformers Well, you don't likeme you like him? You know, that
(14:26):
kind of thing. And it's aboutdoctrine, but I think
personality is is involved here.
For sure. So we actually getboots are apologizing to Zwingli
said I'm sorry for wasting yourtime. With this, it says I will
no longer quote harass you for aConcord so boots or breaks with
(14:47):
him to me a little hand myselfbut that's what's going on here.
So the TETRA policy confessiongives us context. Now you get
the falls right between Marburgand closer to marbre than it
does to the Wittenberg Concord,which is in 1536. By the way, if
I didn't mention that earlier,um, here's Wolfgang capito. So
this is kind of like I said, therump Protestants, the guys who
(15:10):
didn't quite go on along withthe Augsburg confession, boots
or wasn't allowed to have apartial subscription to it. So
they came up with this document.
As you may recall, when theytalked about the sacraments,
they talked about an outwardword, sacred symbols visible
signs of invisible grace, okay,that sounds you know, more
(15:33):
reforms of England baptismthough they're pretty clear that
washes away sin saves us butalso made the comparison
circumcision. And this is kindof the interesting phrase for
the Lord separate Christ Danes.
Remember that supposed to meanto give his true Body and Blood
to be truly eaten and drunk forfood and drink of souls? Okay,
so that's, they're defining itthat way. So, but again, it's,
(15:57):
it's, you know, maybe can we seesee some common ground here? And
they're kind of likeShakespeare, I think they doth
protest too much a little bit.
Well, we take this veryseriously very religiously, but
I think they're trying to provewe're not these crazy Anabaptist
so we're not we don't have acrude idea about this. This is
(16:17):
something sacred. Okay. Oh,yeah, here's here's the break
with with Swingley Zwingli.
Also, considered boots are nowto be politically motivated by
Jakub storm and other civilleaders and Strausberg you got
this gotta have this alliancegot to have this alliance. So
he's, once he stops agreeingwith with Swingley on everything
(16:40):
that he's pretty much calls himyou're giving into Luther. Okay,
back back to the timeline, then.
How can progress possiblycontinue? Well, if Zwingli dies
and Lachlan, Pontius dies, wellthen always willingly, willingly
died in October, I think Imissed that point. Well, you
(17:01):
have the two personal obstaclesare gone. So it was booster, not
only thing so I can, I can bringmy people but maybe I can still
get the Swiss of Swingleypersonally isn't involved. So
the first Basel confession thatwe looked at, and then the
constant articles are constants.
That's a city on Lake Constance,northern Switzerland. So Bootsy
is putting together stuff,Lutherans are ready to talk,
(17:25):
they're open to talking, we needto kind of come up with with our
position. And by sheercoincidence, Luther comes up
with his pre meeting notes froma length and he can't traveled
to Castle. And Lincoln's gonnahave a pre meeting for the
Wittenberg, Concord. So we'regonna look at those two
documents briefly. The otherthing, the background is the
fall of the this is a fun name,the Telfer a fun one stir, and
(17:48):
anyone know what that is. It'slike the Baptist empire of
monster realm of monster. So theAnabaptist went crazy took over
a monster. There's books. DanCarlin did like a four or five
hour podcast on it. It's crazystuff. But that's radical
reformation. But some apparent Ijust learned this from the book,
some of these radicals who aredoing forced adult baptism like
(18:10):
it, the edge of a sword pointlike this is it gets culty you
get multiple wives marry me oryou die. Like literally, that's
what's going on there. Some ofthose people had come from
Strasburg and moved up toMunster. So it's a little close
to home. What do we think aboutbaptism? So that's in the
(18:31):
background to immediate contexton the timeline, they have the
first Helvetic confession andFebruary 15 36 You have the
Wittenburg articles, you knowthat those are set right? That's
when Henry the Eighth sent hisdelegation right. So there
again, Protestant Alliance talk.
Then you finally have theWittenberg Concord is in May,
(18:53):
they met for about a week andWittenberg. Okay. So, again,
brief context, what are theytalking about in the sacraments
here in Basel and 1534? As anearly Lutheran some some that
was a criticism from the otherreformed they say the true Body
and Blood of Christ is offeredto us with the bread and wine.
(19:16):
Okay, that's a third of the wayto Luthers catechism definition
right. Christ is present in hisholy supper. Okay. So that's
yeah, they're getting they'regetting there. So now we have
the constants articles like Isaid, this is preparing for the
preliminary meeting. Boots whocomes up with these points with
his South German northern Swissfriends says with the visible
(19:41):
things of bread and wine, thetrue body and True Blood of our
Lord Jesus Christ are trulypresented and distributed. I
don't think we would throw theheresy flag at that. That one.
Anyone? Yeah, just like a yellowyou just yeah. yeah I don't know
(20:03):
so don't don't throw it at mefor thinking that's okay and
let's see have you know I don'tI don't see a problem with that
this is also keep talkingChristology Jesus as true God
and man is presented anddistributed. Okay, so
significant Oh this was that wasthe
(20:24):
boot boot sir. Yeah, and friendsI think but yeah boot sir. Yeah,
this was on the backside of myWittenberg image so colored
Luther put on there probably nothis best image but it's mine
though some sharing so leucharsthoughts on December 7 He said
(20:45):
there but this is what he'ssaying. And Bucha saying, well,
it's just a Mako logo Makia youknow, battle about words. He's
like, No, there's nomisunderstanding you were wrong
at Marburg so he's not he's notwilling to yield the point. But
based on what's coming out ofSwitzerland you know in Basel
are the are constants he's like,Okay, this can there's there's
(21:06):
we can work with that. He washe's going to emphasize the
action of God in the sacramentsyou know, arrow coming down from
heaven. He's doing stuff saysChrist is truly presented,
distributed and received andeaten. He's eaten to okay. But
Christ's body isn't chewedanymore. So that's his one main
(21:28):
concession from Marburg. Okay,we're not chewing Christ's body
moving in this realm ofsacramental union. Okay, but
they must concede at leastyou're holding Christ. You may
not be chewing chewing Christ,but you're holding Christ. So
it's very interesting. You'reusing the senses. Now you can I
do I see Christ Am I tasting youknow what? It's getting pretty
(21:49):
detailed here. Okay, and then wehave the other kind of
background document that wetalked about the first Helvetic
confession speaks in categoriesof sign and substance. The signs
are received by the body thesubstance faith alone. Baptism
is regeneration intended forchildren. Again, get the Telfer
(22:12):
icon Munsters is in thebackground here, and communion
Christ truly offers his body andblood the bread and wine are
highly significant holy signsagain, protesting that we're not
crazy about this true communionof the Body and Blood is
affirmed believers are presentedwith spiritual things that they
signify. So kind of a spiritualpresence. There's clearly a
(22:34):
distinction between spiritualand real, though it's not quite
quite there. Okay, now we'reactually at the windbreak
Concord got the background, May15 36. So the delegation of
South Germans were supposed tomeet Lutheran Eisenach, and if
you've been in Germany, you dothe Luther tour. You know, the
Wartburg, is kind of in thecorner. Everything else is to
(22:54):
the east and north a bit. Sothis was kind of the the meeting
point, because Luther is stillunder the band, he's not allowed
to leave Saxony. So this is theconvenient spot. But Luther is
sick. And they say let's move tograndma. And the south Germans
is boots to say, You know what,we'll just go to Wittenberg.
Like, we're already we'realready 75% of the way there,
(23:14):
we're just gonna go all the way.
So that's how it ended up beingin Wittenberg itself. So this is
the word I think we talked. Didyou mentioned that earlier.
exhibit is what does it mean?
Yeah, that but that's translatedas in the Wittenberg, Concord
and English as is offered,exhibited? Well, this is a main
(23:35):
word and part of the point inthis book is like I said, the
document is so short, thatJensen is say reconstructing but
he's adding in all this context.
They said this one word, theyall signed to this one word, but
he's pretty convinced they kindof walked away with different
understandings of what this wordmeant. So that's maybe you know,
why don't why don't we all stillsigned to the Wittenberg,
(23:57):
Concord? Well, it wasinsufficient for the true
purpose of the document. Well,here's Luthers view. Jensen
summarizes four points. That'snot Zingales, translation or
understanding of show signify orpoint to, but Christ is
distributed, to hit to give hisforgiving presents, and
(24:20):
challenges the Swiss separationof the cross and the sacrament,
right the benefit of the crossis kind of wrapped up and, and
received in Christ in thesacrament, but it's also meant
to reject any Transubstantiationor impersonation, while joining
the forgiveness of the cross. Sothat past event is present right
(24:40):
there in the sacrament. And hispoint to is with just this just
distribution is the proclamationof the Word. And Jensen says
this one word is the key tounderstanding the real presence,
debate and his opinion So thethe other phrase is company
(25:03):
which is you know just with thebread so boots are preferred
with the bread he didn't reallylike in or under which course
Luther we all in our catechismuse those three words. Boots are
likes company though with thebred to show sacramental union
with believers if the brand thebody are being multi meaning and
(25:25):
avoids impersonation, you knowthe word in may sound kind of
like an incarnation with orimpersonation right? Sets
parallels with the body ofChrist as I said. So who another
thing is who receives the Lordseparate this is usually If I
(25:45):
hear one, I've heard one thingabout the Wittenberg, Concord,
it's kind of the litmus test ofAre you really a Lutheran, if
you say, an unbeliever alsoreceives Christ, right. And
that's, that's the test and thatkind of comes from from this,
which part of it at least. So,they together in the document in
the Concord they reject Donnaautism, they don't use that
(26:08):
word. But basically, it's notthe worthiness of the Minister,
that gives the sacrament itsvalidity, validity, they come up
with three get categories ofwell, what kind of people could
possibly receive we have thegodly the pious, using Latin
terms, the ungodly, and theunworthy. And they they, they
kind of divided ungodly andunworthy to kind of make
(26:29):
everyone happy. But Jensen issaying the Lutherans and the
boots rights, if you want tocall them that had different
understandings of unworthy or atleast different nuances on it.
Louis friends are sticking tothe center St. Idea. We're all
unworthy taking it anyway.
(26:50):
Right. So the unworthy,basically everyone receives them
anyway. Right? Well, the SouthChairman's would prefer to think
of unworthy as Billy, the not sogood believers, if you're
struggling in your faith, youstill, you're unworthy, but
you're still receiving it. Okay.
But they still they say everyoneis receiving Christ in this
document. The Lutherans aregoing to emphasize that
(27:12):
worthiness of the receiptrecipient does not validate the
sacrament. So both ends both theminister distributing and the
people receiving that is notwhat makes it valid. It's the
word. This document, though,does not directly address
Christological issues. So yeah,that's the chief article, if you
can call it that of, of a twoand a half page document, it's
on the Lord's Supper. They dohave items on baptism. This is
(27:35):
coming towards the end of thedocument, but they say we do not
understand God's working inchildren. So they're trying to
avoid the rational explanationfor everything. Needing to
explain how it works. They lookat the promise of the word for
the importance and efficacy ofbaptism. So both everyone there
affirmed infant baptism,regeneration, baptism. Jenson
(27:58):
brings in the context illusionsheld that faith was possible
prior to baptism, and says thiswas offensive to the boots or in
the south Germans. Because theyfocused on you know, well,
baptism is the thing that givesyou the bath of regeneration. We
don't see any other way it'spossible Lutherans like the John
(28:18):
the Baptist story, which I had aseminary prof who really didn't
like that application. So theyfound that very interesting that
at this time in place, you know,they're holding out hope for
babies outside of baptism.
Without under saying weunderstand how it all works or
(28:39):
what happens. So the southGermans are going a little bit
deeper than maybe the Lutheranthing they're saying they have a
comb Aqua to with the waterbecause they want to avoid like
a holy water concept to bothwanting to avoid ex opera opera
Otto, but neither side or thedocument itself does not mention
(29:01):
the issues of original sin.
Okay, we also have absolution isthe final article here. It's
pretty much taken from theAugsburg confession, preserves
private confession andabsolution but also says don't
make it mandatory. So this, Iguess, no big surprises here.
But private confession is seenas useful and pastoral Lutherans
(29:21):
Jensen says they're always goingto focus on the gospel
proclamation of the rite ofabsolution while the south
Germans or he says are a littlemore focused on the confessional
right itself okay real quickjust showing you where this is a
scam straight from the book it'sreally hard to see probably at
that that angle. Saxony rememberit's it's its own country really
(29:45):
there. We're dealing with a lotof cities though for the rest
but every basically if it's onthere, it accepted the
Wittenberg Concord concludinginteresting and if Basel itself
inconstant so you get to Swisscities that they went along with
this. This is your delegation,your reformed or South German. I
(30:08):
think got the Lutherans. Luthersaid at the end this weekend
accepts you now as brothers inChrist in regard to these three
articles. So again, your div andfellowship, you know, okay, is
he doing kind of unit stuff now?
Or you're not? I don't know.
(30:29):
They really look at that toomuch. But you have, you know,
Wolfgang musculus. Capitalbooster, probably the three main
guys that I recognize from ourreadings. So I guess the, the
question is, was this a failureor success? Or not? So this, the
(30:49):
Swiss weren't really convinced.
Apart from Basel, so if you'resaying, Well, it's the Zwingli.
Ins and Lutherans are gettingtogether, the answer is clearly
no. But what did happen was hehad a South German, really West
German to southwest Germanacceptance of it and conclusion
of the book is that they're notreally Zwingli ins. Maybe
(31:10):
they're not Lutheran, butthey're definitely more Lutheran
than than Swingley. Andaccording to this document,
boots you can I don't think it'sa term to be a Bootsy right, but
it's kind of what what they werebut Bootsy Wright's gonna get
along with it, Lutherans onthese things. The the main
takeaway, for one of thehistorians looked at this,
(31:31):
there's consensus not conquered.
So it's not exactly a statementof unified faith, but at least
consensus. It also influenced melengthens 15 4040 variadic, and
the language used there was wasfound again, I guess the
biggest, like legacy forLutherans today is that the
(31:54):
formula of Concord has directquotes straight from this
document. So there was stillreferencing it decades later,
and found it at more thanadequate to, to talk about
things such as the worthiness ofrecipients. And they made sure
we know that company means alsoin and under so as a starting
(32:14):
point, at least for some ofthose articles. So it was it was
a processing, you know, theSaxons pretty much. I mean,
they're all right there.
Wittenburg. Who else are goingto ask if Lutheran Millington
sign on to it? charlatan signedit later, I believe, to his kind
of the government signing off onit. And you know, the Secretary
of the lector Yeah, we're good.
(32:35):
And that's the nice thing abouthaving the electorate of Saxony,
that's this whole region, justin a, you know, 30 seconds of
signing the whole region now isfalls into line, all these other
cities, you have to go to thecity council's and get talk this
through. And that's a big, youknow, geopolitical difference.
That was a challenge, perhaps ofgetting conquered. But it
(32:56):
happened in in those cities.
It's called a comp card. Right.
So it's an agreement, but Right,it was, it was limited sort of
limited purposes. And I didn'thave the quote right up on here.
But, you know, Luther, realizedthat you don't need to have full
doctrinal agreement, to have apolitical agreement, he says you
(33:20):
can make countries can makealliances, whether or not you
agree on your faith, you know,kind of the two kingdoms idea.
So well, you know, kind of twodifferent levels, that's almost
flipped like the Lutherans takethe doctrine more seriously than
just, you know, a generalgeneral vibe, but then the
reformed are going to take thepolitical aspect more seriously.
(33:43):
There's another document inthere we didn't get to about
what do you do with thegovernment taking over church
lands and they had oppositeresponses to that as well. So
and it says, it starts off thepreamble preamble is you know
boots are and his friends and itsays they believe this they
believe that and it's some viewit as a concession by boot sir.
(34:05):
And friends that maybe shouldhave made that much more clear
in a way like Lutheran lengthenor, you know, signing off on
Yep, they made their confession.
They were wrong. We were right.
Doesn't it isn't said that way,but they're basically sounding
like Lutherans at thisWittenberg Concord? And they
said, Okay, we examined that,you know, almost like a
confirmation examination. Theysaid what they were supposed to
(34:26):
say. We can now say we agree onthese three articles. So it's
much less of two two sidescoming together and hashing
things out. But depending on whoyou ask, it may be seem to the
Lutherans that these guys aremaking a different kind of
confession, right. Confession,confession. All right. That is
(34:46):
it for our presentation on theWittenberg, Concord. Hopefully
you found that somewhatinteresting. Again, if you'd
like to watch more and see moreof the information with images
and quotes, in a better formatthan a pod gasps please go to
the Lutheran History Channel onYouTube where you can watch the
presentation there. If you'dlike to see more YouTube videos
(35:08):
behind the scenes content, youcan always become a patron on
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