June 13, 2025 • 52 mins
What happens when you mix child psychology, creative play, and golf instruction? You get a revolutionary approach to junior golf that's changing how young players connect with the game.
Meet Lisi Mueller, an assistant golf professional who left a high-paying corporate job to pursue her passion for teaching golf to children and women. Drawing from her educational background in child psychology and development, Lisey brings a refreshingly innovative toolkit to the driving range—complete with stuffed animals, ribbons, and hopscotch patterns that translate complex golf movements into age-appropriate learning experiences.
Throughout our conversation, Lisi shares the beautiful simplicity of her teaching philosophy: meet children where they are, not where traditional golf instruction expects them to be. Her monkey named Rory teaches body rotation, her octopus Shelly demonstrates grip pressure, and her creative hopscotch patterns help four-year-olds understand weight transfer without ever using those technical terms. The results? Children who hit "a million balls" while having fun, develop critical self-awareness, and keep coming back to the course with excitement rather than obligation.
Beyond teaching methods, we explore deeper questions about golf's accessibility, particularly for young girls who rarely see themselves represented in the game. Lisi's courage to be visible in predominantly male spaces creates pathways for future generations of female golfers. Her reminder that "no one owns golf" and "golf can look like whatever you want it to look like" offers a powerful counterpoint to an industry increasingly focused on professional competition over recreational enjoyment.
Whether you're a parent hoping to introduce your child to golf, a coach looking for fresh teaching approaches, or simply someone who believes golf should be more inclusive and joy-centered, Lisi's insights will inspire you to see the game through new eyes. Connect with her on social media @lisilea_tothetee to learn more about her innovative teaching methods.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured
Golf Podcast where we talk allthings golf and try to bring in
some really interesting peopleto help us understand what's
going on with golf, because, aswe all know, it's a complicated
game and we all have ourdifferent reasons why we play it
and what we want to get out ofit.
And it's kind of in that spiritof how we play it and what we
want to get out of it and it'skind of in that spirit of how we
(00:25):
play it and how we get betterat it that we arrived at our
next guest and I was fortunateenough to meet her over in the
Washington DC area while doingan education and she just stood
out like a sore thumb from apretty good group of instructors
and her passion and hercommitment to young people is
really something to see and I'vegot to know her a little bit
(00:48):
and been fortunate enough toshare some information with her
and I always learn so much fromher every time I talk to her
because she's just so good atunderstanding early childhood
development and how theyoungsters learn and I thought
it would be really good, insteadof talking about tour players
for an entire episode again,maybe if we talked a little bit
(01:08):
more about our youngsters andgetting them onto the golf
course and supporting them in ameaningful way and that doesn't
mean just buying them lessonsand buying them clubs and
putting them into golftournaments but how do we make
golf meaningful?
So, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce Lisey Mueller,
and I'm excited to have her on.
So say hello, lisey.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Hello, I'm good.
I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about your day-to-day
activities and kind of what youdo within the golf industry.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, so I'm an assistant pro at a private
country club.
I teach a lot of juniors andwomen and also, obviously, the
grunt work of being an assistantpro takes up a lot of my time
as well.
But my joy is teaching kids,learning about just how they
learn and doing research andapplying my crazy ideas to get
(02:01):
them to get excited and come tothe course.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
So what are some of these crazy ideas?
Because you've shared a couplewith me, but maybe my definition
of crazy and your definition ofcrazy doesn't match the
audience.
So tell us a little bit moreabout some of these crazy ideas
that you've put into play.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, so I study education for my bachelor's at
Dickinson and so I know a lotabout child psychology and how
those things work.
Inside a classroom.
It's the same thing when youare on the golf course it's
still a classroom and there'sthings in place in so many
studies that you can use in thesame way.
So a lot of the things I dowith my little kids that are
(02:41):
like 10 and below a lot ofvisual things.
So I have stuffed animals thatI use.
I have an octopus named Shellywho is sticky feet, who watches
sticky feet.
I have a turtle named Franklinthat is making sure that they're
aware of how fast they'reswinging and if they're fat, if
they're too fast, Franklindefinitely steps in, is like,
(03:03):
well, that was way too fast, waytoo fast.
And then I have a monkey who'sprobably my favorite out of all
of them with my kids.
His name's Rory and I got itfrom Erica Larkin.
It's one of those Velcro handmonkeys that teaches how to use
your body visually instead ofyour arms moving the club, and
(03:23):
that really works like magic.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
That's so awesome.
You got some stuffed animals.
I think I remember you tellingme about some ribbons too, if I
remember correctly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So if you know what?
Like a baton ribbon, it's likea stick and then it's a really
long ribbon.
So I cut it down and basicallylet them use the ribbon and make
the noise, of using their bodyto make the noise and they'll
learn, because when they justuse their arm it's not as loud
and not as fun and when they usetheir body to do it it's way
(03:53):
louder.
And you got to be a little bitcareful with, like the older
kids.
They go a little crazy with it,but just them having that
feeling that they can own iseverything, because they're
trying to make theirunderstanding of the golf swing
at a really young age.
That is incredibly complicatedonce they get older.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, that's.
I mean it's funny because we'vetalked in the past and I think
when we first met you were likeI've got some ideas, but maybe
they're kind of crazy, and youwere a little.
And you know, I I love the factthat you know.
You know whether it's it'sinternal or external.
You know you feel maybeslightly out of place with what
(04:35):
you're doing sometimes but youstill, um, you still pursue it
and you still do it, even thoughmaybe you feel a little
uncomfortable or maybe you knowyou're slightly awkward.
But I think that that'sprobably what connects you so
well to the youngsters, right,like your ability to not have
that like self-awareness yetmaybe just like be a kid with
(04:57):
them.
I just think that's sobeautiful because I think as we,
as we specialize and as webecome you know quote unquote,
famous coaches or whatever um,you know it's like we kind of
lose a little bit of that, weforget cause we get away from
that.
And I just love the fact thatyou're so happy to be in the
(05:18):
trenches of where everybody elsetypically is trying to run away
from as fast as possible.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, for sure, definitely no one really wants
to teach the juniors, especiallythe ones that are super hyper.
But I think I'm definitely akid at heart, for sure.
But I struggled in school whenI was that age Like I had
dyslexia, I had an auditoryprocessing disorder, like school
was hard and every kid learnsdifferently.
School is hard and every kidlearns differently and there's
(05:44):
just not one way to teach.
And I think being able to becreative in a world that I
absolutely adore, I want to givemy gift of golf to these kids
and teach them in any type ofway that will make them excited
to come to the golf course.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Dude, that's awesome, like that's so what it's about.
And uh, you know I haven't toldyou this but I was just over in
the UK and uh, me and Aram uhKashigian, our full-time trainer
here at measured golf, we wereout playing the uh second course
at current USD called Burnsideand it's considered to be the
(06:23):
junior course to thechampionship course, but it's
still like a golf course rankedin the top 10 in Scotland, so
it's still like a great golfcourse.
But we saw like several womenout on the golf course, like
small groups of them, and youcould tell like there was like a
leader within the group thatwas kind of shepherding the
other women and kind of helpingthem like kind of figure out how
(06:43):
to play and whatnot, likealmost, almost in like a four
caddy kind of position.
And then we saw a lot ofchildren out there who were
playing golf and like they hadtheir parents, either their dad
or their mom, with them, but theparents weren't playing golf,
they were just like with thekids and helping them kind of
get around the golf course withthe kids and helping them kind
(07:04):
of get around the golf courseand like it was this really
simplistic kind of like hey, wemight not know how to swing the
golf club and we might not knowhow to tell you how to do this
better or whatever, but we cantell you how to like keep up and
tell you how to rake a bunker,and tell you how to fix a ball
mark and to repair your divotand like do these things.
(07:25):
And it's like I think so many ofus wanted like jump into, like
the super cool stuff and what'sgoing on on tour.
But, like, for most peoplelistening to this, this
conversation that we're havingis way more applicable to their
life, their life, because, eventhough a lot of what we're
(07:46):
talking about is stuff we do forearly childhood development and
for the youngsters, a lot ofthese same things are what we
need to do with new golfers,because, in a way, they're like
early adults within golf andthey don't really know what to
do either.
And I think a lot of what youdo I hate to call it kind of
childish, because it isn'tbecause I think most of what you
do would work with adults tooif we could get them to like let
(08:08):
their ego down enough toactually try something different
.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean I think the etiquettething is big.
Like when I started playinggolf, like love my dad he's the
one that got me into golf hewould not let me play until I
knew etiquette.
He would not let me play untilI knew etiquette.
So I would sit there with allhis military guys foursome 7.30
in the morning watchingeverything until I knew the
(08:31):
rules.
Then he finally would let meplay.
But not all kids are like that.
Like I was a golf nerd so it'slike I could handle that.
But there's different ways tolike teach a kid to love the
game and like.
I think etiquette and keepingup is like key when you're
learning.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's, it's massively key and it's it's just
frustrating because I think youknow, I think a lot of times
junior golf is really anafterthought, and especially in
this country.
Um, I think you know, know, weworry about the first two hours
of the tee sheet during the dayand that's about it for the most
(09:09):
part.
When it comes to, like, clublevel golf, and it's scary
because you know the generationnow, the youngsters.
You know everything is graded,everything is critiqued,
everything is put on socialmedia, everything is documented
and, like the youngsters feelthis immense pressure to perform
(09:29):
at a high level, no matter whatthey're doing, like everything
has to be Instagram perfect attimes.
So I think the thing that'sworrisome is that, with all this
pressure to succeed, as youknow, as I know, as anybody
listening to this knows, golf isnot easy in the beginning by
any stretch of the imagination.
And if we're not putting theresources around these new
(09:54):
golfers and this next generationand helping them develop and
learn how to get around a golfcourse and how not to be yelled
at by the starter all the timebecause they're way behind or
whatever's going on, if we don'tstart developing this next
generation, like what's going tohappen to golf in this country
Because I think we're alreadyseeing there's a massive access
(10:14):
problem.
But you know, if we have anaccess problem and then we're
not developing the people thatdo get access, we're just not
going to have the nextgeneration of golfers ready to
go when this one's, you know,going out and retiring from the
game.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, exactly, and golf can break your heart.
Imagine being heartbroken aboutgolf and you're eight years old
.
That hurts me.
So, like we have to preparethem.
It's a mental battle, you know.
You have to make that mentaltoughness in.
The earlier that you do that,the better golfer they will be.
Like.
So, for me, I this is my adviceto like any dad, mom that are
(10:50):
teaching their kids when you'rewatching your kid go and they
hit a good shot, resist beinglike wow, that was great.
You have to resist that and ifyou do say that, you have to say
why.
Or like, wow, you use all yourmuscles on that one.
You really turned yourshoulders on that one because
they're gonna look to you beinglike was that good, was that
(11:11):
good?
But you, they have to know it'sgood and you give them the
tools to do that.
Like with my three year old,she always looks at me for
approval and I mean I've beentrying to get her out of that
and I, every time I like I'vehad to stop being like wow, that
was good, cause she does hitamazing shots.
I'm just like, wow, you use allyour muscles and I'll touch her
shoulders.
I'm like you used all yourshoulders.
(11:32):
That time, you know, and justlike you really looked at the
ball, that ball went so high.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
But that's just such great reinforcement, right, like
that's so well done from afeedback perspective.
Because, you know, the thingthat I I the thing that's tough
for coaches, right, and thething that I get frustrated with
with other coaches is, you know, they'll kind of run out of
tricks and they are very adamantabout what needs to change for
(12:01):
this person or this youngster orwhoever, but they're like hey,
it feels like this, come on, yougotta, you gotta get that.
And it's like well, you mayunderstand how that feels
because you've done that before,but this person doesn't know
how that feels.
So, you know, you may ask ayoungster to do something and
they don't really have a feelfor that at all.
(12:22):
But the fact that you'restepping in, if it's a, if it's
a good, you know result, andtouching the thing you're trying
to change and then being like,hey, great job, like that helps
them build some of thatawareness and it helps create
some of those feelings.
So I think that's awesome, man.
Like really good.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, I'm definitely a child centered coach, but
that's what I kind of go through.
I kind of let them lead andlike creativity.
So another thing me and sophia,like little as she's four now
we'll use animals because sheloves animals.
So we'll go like swing like acheetah, swing like a turtle
turtle you have to be carefulwith, because they're just gonna
(13:01):
like drag the club and you haveto explain like turtles are
really strong, they have a hugeshell and then she's like you're
right, but they're just veryintentional in their movements.
We'll go through so manyanimals, but she hits a million
balls.
That's like the key and she'shaving fun doing it and also
learning about rhythm and tempowithout me saying it to her,
(13:23):
because she can can't understandthat yet.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right, she has no definition for those words.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
No, it's a feeling.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Right, and that's.
I mean that's.
You know, we kinda we waxpoetically about the golf swing
itself a lot, but at the end ofthe day it's, you know, from the
time it starts to the time youhit the ball.
You've got a second and there'sa lot of things you're going to
feel in that second, butthere's not very many conscious
thoughts you're going to be ableto have within that second.
(13:51):
Yes.
And you know, for a youngsterwho has to kind of translate
every word because they're notaccustomed to, like, talking
about physics or mechanics orwhatever you know, there's just
not enough time in the world fortheir brain to make that swing.
So, by kind of focusing on thefields and getting them to
(14:12):
understand like, hey, what do wewant to happen here?
Like what would good look like?
You know, I think with with theyoungsters, the hardest thing
is is you kind of have to holdthe ball almost behind you.
Uh, it's kind of like my goldenretriever If she sees the ball
in my hand she knows I'mthrowing it, so I have to hide
it from her.
But like, it's kind of like youhave to hide the ball a little
(14:32):
bit and go hey, what are wegoing to do on this next shot?
Which animal are we going toswing?
Like you kind of.
Like you said, let them lead.
But then, like, if they seethat happen now it's like okay,
like now they can own.
That it was good because theyunderstood what they were trying
to do.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, and what's really interesting is one time
out she was like can I do itlike a snake?
And then she's like I'm goingto top the ball, so it goes on
the ground like a snake and I'mlike I never taught you what
even that is.
But she's learning her the clubface of where it is.
Like what that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Isn't that cool.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Like the thing that.
The thing that I think isinteresting, right, like is we
look at this like conversationand we look at like coaching
juniors and we're like, oh,that's cute, that's a fun team.
You know what I mean.
But in reality, you know, whenyou send me videos and I see the
(15:31):
people on your Instagram, I seepeople really like enjoying
golf, like you just said thatright.
Like you've got a three or fouryear old that's hitting a
million golf balls and isexcited about it and it's
probably talking about it athome.
And then it's probably likewhen can we go to the golf
course?
When can I see Lisi again?
And before we started thisconversation, the recorded part,
(15:52):
lisi was showing me, you know,all these amazing notes and all
these amazing drawings that ourclients have made and it's like,
look, if that's happening,that's happening away from the
golf course.
So you're having like thismeaningful connection to these
young people through golf, andI've.
I think you know, at the end ofthe day, man, golf should be fun
(16:14):
, promoting fun, and like Ireally appreciate that because I
feel like I'm way too damnstuffy all the time and
constantly trying to take allthe fun away from it.
But I think that you know, goingback to the idea that this is
cute or less than it's like dude, if you're a person that plays
golf recreationally and, youknow, don't have aspirations of
(16:37):
being a tour player and all that, which is 85% playing golf, by
the way, like, if you're thatlike maybe you know, introduce a
couple animals to your practiceroutine and see if it doesn't
like at least you're going tohave some fun again.
You know what I mean.
I don't understand, like, why,you know we look at the people
(16:57):
who are mega successful teachingyoungsters and we don't try to
extrapolate more of that intoteaching adults, because even
though they're an adult by youknow years, on this planet's
perspective, like within golf, alot of these adults are infants
.
You know, they're just pickingup the game, they're new,
they're COVID golfers, they'vebeen around for a couple of
(17:17):
years but just kind of beenwhacking golf balls like we all
do in the beginning.
But how do we, how do we takesome of what you're sharing and
implement that and gettingpeople more open to exploring
their feelings so that they canget better at golf?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, maybe done in the private of your own home.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, I honestly, though, I think that that's
where, like AI and a lot of thevirtual coaching and stuff like
that, I think that's where ithas a real strength.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, no for sure.
Also, hopping is a good thingtoo.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And you kind of inspired that because it's
basically like pressure transfer.
So little kids are very topheavy, like their head is very
big, so balance is hard.
It's very impressive for a kidto learn how to walk, if you
really think about it.
So like balance is somethingyou have to teach a kid.
So I'll create hopscotch forSophia and basically what I'm
(18:13):
teaching her is to use her legsto create that turn and then
I'll make her do a completely360 and try to balance like from
jumping, like here and then 360, jump to where your feet were
before and that's basically whata golf swing is.
And after we did that for acouple of times she was hitting
(18:33):
the ball like with her body,without even like making the
connection.
It was just teaching her bodyhow to move.
And now her mom will alwayssend me videos.
She does the hopscotch anywhere.
She goes in the beginning andthen launches it and everyone's
like looking at her like whoathat's so awesome too.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
But I mean it's just like you're on her level, like
you're coaching her where she'sat with you know things she's
able to do.
Uh, like, the hopscotch thingis brilliant, you know.
I mean I hear a lot.
You know there's like this andI I, to be honest, I kind of
used to subscribe to this alittle bit but you know, there's
like kind of this junior golfswing and then there's like kind
(19:17):
of like a more grown-up, adultgolf swing, right like right the
juniors allegedly don't have asmuch core strength when they're
younger and they tend to kindof pin the golf club behind them
and then just kind of try torip it through there as hard as
they can to make speed.
and then we know that you know,generally as you grow up and get
older and develop some corestrength and like you, you know
(19:38):
that kind of soft draw turnsinto a hard hook and it's like
then we got to learn how to getthe golf club more connected
again.
So, I I used to kind of thinkthat that was kind of true-ish,
but really I think what you'resaying and kind of what I've
been thinking for a little bithere lately, is it's not so much
that the youngsters don't havethese muscles, they do have
(20:00):
these.
Yeah.
It's not like you grow extramuscles as you get older, like
it doesn't work that way, um,but it's.
They don't have awareness ofthose muscles and maybe they
haven't done a specific activitythat forces them to, you know,
kind of connect the brain tothat muscle via the nervous
system.
Right, by doing things that areactive and fun and, like age
(20:26):
appropriate, like hopscotch, andgetting her to twist and move
in those certain ways, you'reliterally creating that
connection between the brain andthe muscle.
So now, when she gets over thatgolf ball and starts moving,
it's like a kind of oh wait,there's that connection.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
They're engaged, like I feel them now.
Yeah, I mean that's.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's just so.
It's like I said it's.
It's a very it seems likechildish way to get something
very specific done.
But it's actually justunderstanding who you're trying
to explain this to and whoyou're actually trying to get to
do it, just understanding whoyou're trying to explain this to
and who you're actually tryingto get to do it.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, so I try to always connect what someone
would do in at school, you know,like their classroom.
That's what I.
So I try as much as I can.
So I think of like recess popscotch she knows that she can
relate to that, or she doesballet.
So I'm like sometimes like, canyou stand on?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
one.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
That's why she's so good because she does ballet
yeah, now, yeah, now I know whatthe secret is.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
It's not Lisey, it's that she does ballet.
That's what it is I've.
Yet If you find young women whodo ballet and retire early
before they just completelydestroy their legs.
If you find one of those, theymake great golfers.
Yeah.
For sure yeah.
(21:43):
That is, they make great golfers.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's awesome though.
Yeah, so she does ballet, shedoes all these things Right, but
you're still able to take thosecompletely non-golf movements
and apply them to golf Right,and that's where you know.
I said this at the educationthat you attended in DC, but you
really got to take the time totalk to your clients, whether
(22:03):
they're a junior or an adult,and you have to understand where
they're coming from.
You have to understand, likewhat have they done?
What are they familiar with?
What have they already put10,000 hours in with Right?
And once you kind of understandlike, oh, she does ballet and
she likes to do hopscotch, it'slike, okay, how can I use these
things to kind of get her tounderstand that we can use these
(22:27):
same things within golf?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
right, right, like it's not a whole, separate
animal.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
No pun intended yeah, well, you can make another
animal.
You're very good at that,you're very creative.
That's awesome.
So I'm curious too, becausethere's a part to your story
that I think is really, reallycool.
And you kind of had a corporategig going and you were like,
(22:53):
hey, I don't really love thiscorporate gig.
And then you were reallypassionate about getting into
coaching and you took a sizablepay cut and got into coaching
yeah I'm like I can't tell you,man, I just think that is so
cool.
Um, I did basically the samething when I got into, you know,
full-time coaching and it's noteasy to do.
(23:15):
It probably took me two tothree years to make that
decision.
You know like I decided I wasgoing to do it.
Probably took me two to threeyears to make that decision.
You know, like I decided I wasgoing to do it.
Then it probably took threeyears to do it.
Um, but I just I think that'sreally cool, but I I think that
that's something that is part ofyour journey.
That's also something that youenjoy sharing with people.
Right Is like yeah, you're sopassionate about this that you
(23:36):
were willing to do that.
And then then, like you justshow up to work every day and
you're like, hey, isn't this thegreatest day ever?
We're like the greatest placeever.
Isn't this great?
Like everything is great, great, great and I just love that
about you.
I think that's so cool.
But I think finding theconfidence to do that like what
was the final straw to where youwere finally, like you know
what man like I gotta, I gottaget into coaching, like now.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
So I coached field hockey and lacrosse from the
moment I graduated in 2018.
I was the head coach of a fieldhockey team varsity field
hockey team in Preston and Iloved it.
So I worked full time nine tofive and then every day I was at
the school till like 10, evenon Saturdays.
Like it was a rough, it was alot, lot, but I it was like the
(24:19):
only saving grace for me.
Like I loved going there.
I loved those girls so much andwe were really successful.
Like we had an undefeatedseason.
We went to the state tournamentfor the first time in like uh,
since the 1980s.
So I was like wait, maybe I'mactually good at this and like I
love it so much and I hate mydesk job.
Like recruiting, I was inrecruiting and it's it's a grind
(24:40):
.
Like I loved it.
I was good at this, and like Ilove it so much and I hate my
desk job.
Like recruiting, I was inrecruiting and it's it's a grind
.
Like I loved it.
I was good at it, but it waslike eating away at me and I was
like hating it way more thanthe normal person.
Like everyone hates their job,but like it was just like not
good yeah um it makes you feelbetter.
I weighed 215 pounds when Ihated my job oh man um so you
(25:06):
hated it yeah, I hated it and Istarted doing research about the
PGA and I thought that you hadto go to school for it and, like
, get a degree in it, and Ididn't.
And so I talked to a recruiterand they like called me back in
like two seconds.
They're like you want to be anassistant problem?
Like yeah, is it possible?
I'm like, um, yeah, there'slike no women that want to do
(25:28):
this.
Like you can go wherever.
Like I could place you in 500places.
I'm like whoa, whoa, okay, allright, maybe this is real, maybe
I can do it.
Um, so I was so scared to go tomy interview.
I did not know what I waswalking myself into, but I kind
of explained my story and mypassion.
(25:49):
I played college golf.
I'm a successful coach in adifferent sport, but I can
relate to people well, and so Ikind of just made the decision.
I also had an offer for anotherrecruiting gig at the same time
.
That was triple the salary noteven joking, I'm not joking and
I chose the assistant pro routeat a girl poverty, seriously,
everyone you're psychotic, butI'm like I gotta try, I gotta
(26:15):
try it and I'm so glad I didLike yes.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I'm glad you did, I'm thrilled you did Like I mean,
you're, you're just you, like Isaid, you literally stand out
from a crowd and your passionfor this is, you know, really
just off the charts man.
And you know whether, whetherwe get anything accomplished in
this podcast or not, I couldreally care less.
(26:39):
But I want, I want people tolike see what amazing people
there are in the golf space and,like you know, I think people
listen to these podcasts to getanswers to questions and if, if
you have questions about hey,what should I be doing?
You know, with my three yearold.
I want him to grow up and lovegolf so we can play golf
together.
Well, I want them to knowthere's people like Lisi in the
(27:02):
world who are like, really goodwith the kids and like you can
reach out to these peoplebecause there are so many people
in our industry who are just init for all the right reasons
and are very passionate andreally care and love it.
And then you know, unfortunately, modern times, you know our
game, our industry.
(27:23):
You know people don't likehearing about the money that
they're playing for and all ofthis stuff and it's like that's
not what golf is man, Like Idon't know what's happened to
our industry, but it seems likeeverything revolves around the
professional game and it's likeit's such a small piece of the
game it's really, by all intentsand purposes, it shouldn't
(27:44):
really even matter.
Like, what those guys and girlsdo is is so much different than
what we do.
It's not even a comparable,really, other than the fact
we're both technically playinggolf.
I promise you we're not playingthe same game.
Like how could we get back towhere, like, golf is fun and
people enjoy it and people laugh, and you know, that's the thing
(28:04):
I really appreciated about golfover, especially in Scotland.
It's very the golf course isvery kind of the center of the
community right, everybodywithin that community, whether
they play golf or not and mostof them do play golf, but
whether they're, like, reallygolfers or not doesn't change
the fact that the golf course isstill like something special.
(28:27):
It's part of the community andit creates like a place for
people to come together andmaybe talk about things and
maybe have conversation withoutit turning into a fistfight.
So I think we just need more ofthat and I think that, for
whatever reason, at least in theUS and the way golf is here, we
(28:49):
just we've really lost sight oflike this.
Hey, we're trying to be goodstewards of the game and trying
to make sure that, you know,there's a generation after us
that's ready to go andunderstands how to take care of
this game and how to like makesure that the next generation
loves it, because, like I loveYouTube, we're obviously part of
the problem.
We're contributing to it as wespeak, but there's a lot that's
(29:12):
getting lost in translation whenit comes to how we pass golf on
to the next generation, when itcomes to how we pass golf on to
the next generation and I'm notsaying we can't do it digitally
, but we need to find a betterway to share more stories like
yours.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think I say this to myself all the time
but no one owns golf.
Like no one.
Golf can look like whatever youwant it to look like.
Like, there's these two ladies.
They're like 92 years old, theyplay every Tuesday, every
Friday, and they play so fast.
They complain about the tasteplay.
It's almost like a repeat reel,but they love it.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
That's what they live for man.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I love it.
You know the lifelong game.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah for sure, and I mean it's just.
You know, I think so manypeople just worry about you know
.
You know this is the thing Ihate.
This is the thing I reallydon't like the most about junior
golf right now is so manypeople, you know, like we talked
about a little bit earlier, somany people are like, hey, we
got little Timmy some lessons.
(30:15):
Little Timmy's ready to go.
Okay, we're putting littleTimmy in a tournament, Right,
and like the parents don't know,like what's going to happen in
that tournament, Just likelittle Timmy doesn't know what's
right in that golf tournament.
The difference is the parentssomewhat can like keep it
together, and the difference isa little Timmy has no idea how
to emotionally regulate Right,Right and like the.
(30:38):
The problem with that is is thatwe're really doing a lot of
damage to these young people andpushing them into competition
when they're not ready.
And they're not ready becausewe haven't even had the
conversation with them about howwe compete, what that means,
how that doesn't affect ourself-worth, Like we're not
having those really importantconversations with these young
(30:59):
people before we put them outthere and then it's okay.
They've been out there for twoyears, they haven't broken 85.
They haven't finished in thetop 10.
Oh, we're going to bump them upbecause they need better
competition.
Yeah, and it's like wait aminute, they they are not
beating the kids that they'retheir age.
What makes you think they'regoing to beat the?
They're not.
Yeah.
And it's like we just keepmoving the goalpost on these
(31:22):
youngsters and it's like they'renever good enough unless they
qualify for the U S open at 12.
Yeah.
That's only good enough untilnext year, when somebody does it
at 11.
So it's it's like we're justconstantly moving these
goalposts.
And I love what you're talkingabout, which is hey, man, we're
not talking about draws andfades and distance control and,
(31:43):
like I love the fact you'retalking about like hey, how do
we, how do we swing it with somekind of connection between the
club and the body, how do weswing it with, like, some kind
of rhythm and some kind of like,like and, most importantly, how
do we make it fun?
Yeah.
Like that's, that's what'simportant.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah, like my goal of my lessons with my kids
eventually is for them to go outon a range and they hit a shot
and they know in their head, intheir whatever, how they
understand it was either whatthey wanted to happen or not and
what went wrong or like whatthe contact felt like.
So they don't have all thesepeople coming up to them and
(32:25):
telling them all this advice.
Especially as a young girl, Isee it all the time like it.
When I was growing up, so manypeople were telling me what to
do because I wasn't confident inmyself, because I thought I
couldn't know everything youknow.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
It's funny, though, right Like, I think it's very.
It's awesome that you sharedthat, because that's a very
personal feeling.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Oh, it's worse.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Right, but I think I don't.
I have no doubt in my mind thatyou would attract More
unsolicited advice than I did,for sure.
Yeah, with that said, I took itthe same way you did because I
(33:14):
didn't have the confidence andwhat I was supposed to be doing
to be like.
Thank you very much, Iappreciate that, but like I kind
of have a thing I'm working on,so thank you Right.
So I don't think the secondpart to that is necessarily
gender specific.
Yeah.
You know what I mean.
I think that that's just poorcoaching and I think that's poor
development.
Because if we as coaches or weas facilitators or stewards of
(33:39):
the game are letting people walkaround and not feel like they
know what they should be tryingto do, then why are we taking
their money?
You know, like I don't feellike we're doing very, a very
good job as the coach or thefacilitator If we're not kind of
getting out in front of thatand getting like those things
(34:00):
put in place, like hey, I knowyou're only four years old, but
when you go to the driving range, this is what good looks.
Like.
Yeah, like this is how we makeit look good.
We put our bag right here.
We make sure we don't make amess, we don't get in the way.
Da, da, da, da, da.
Like we hit our balls.
We hit them confident.
We hit them like whatever andlike you.
Just that's what I try to getpeople to focus on more of these
(34:22):
human skills.
How many times or whatpercentage of the time did you
run your processes on the coursetoday?
Like that's a big question forme.
I'll ask that I'll never askwhat you shot.
I don't care, like I obviouslydo.
I live in a performanceenvironment.
But at the end of the day, like, how much of the time were you
(34:42):
actually doing what you'retraining yourself to do?
Right, because if we're notdoing that, then the score
doesn't matter.
Like you can go out there andjust play with your buddies and
not give a crap and have acouple but you know, a couple of
Budweiser's and whatever, andlike slap around and shoot 68.
But that doesn't mean you'regoing to go shoot 68 the next
day in a tournament.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Bro preach right.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
So it's like, how do we get good at like running
these systems and running theseprocesses?
And I think that most of whatyou've talked about today,
without talking about it whichis your gift, right's kind of
like teaching these youngsterslike, hey, this is how we go
about doing this yeah, we'redoing it right now with stuffed
(35:26):
animals and balloons and, youknow, ribbons, but, like, this
is how they're going to learn.
And if I walked up to the samekids, I was like, hey, kids, you
got to do this, this and this.
And I said the exact same stuffas you're saying, but just
vocalized it.
I'm going to be upset all thetime because the kids are never
going to listen to me.
And it's not because we'resaying a different thing, it's
(35:47):
because you're doing such abetter job creating context that
they understand that they'renot understanding from me.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, I mean, just think about it like you're a
little kid and you have allthese grown men slamming their
driver on the range.
You don't even look like them,like you're tiny.
How could they?
How can they see that theycould do that?
So a lot of times I'll haveSophia watch Alex, this girl
Alexis, that's very good at theclub because she doesn't like
(36:16):
watching me swing.
I't look like her, I'm so muchtaller than her.
That's unattainable, but sheloves watching this girl and
she'll copy her um and hersisters and stuff go find a you
like a lost golf club in the bagroom.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Cut it in half, put a grip on it and hit some shots
off your knees true that's agood idea.
See, I got you.
Make sure it's like a wedge,though, because you need lots of
loft when you get real shortlike that.
Trust me.
Okay, okay.
Seven iron turns into about athree iron.
That short, oh God.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
It's embarrassed myself.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, exactly, I want to make sure you look good in
front of kids, I mean.
So it's interesting, though,right Like so, in your world, in
your view.
So, as Sophia develops, whatdoes that ideally kind of look
like for you over the next,let's say, five to 10 years?
(37:15):
Like my relationship with her,or like your relationship with
her and how do you think thatthat's going to have to evolve
and change?
Right, because, like right now,like the animals and all that
works great, but as she getsolder, she's, it's just like you
know anybody else they loseinterest in barbie at a certain
point yeah, like we don't evenuse the animals anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
We talk about animals like so she'll.
She can recognize my octopussticky feet.
She'll be like oh, no, stickyfeet, you know, without my
animal there with us.
Sometimes she'll ask for roryto come, the monkey, but she
doesn't ask for him.
But she's like that was a roryswing.
She can recognize it becauseshe knows, has that visual cue
(37:56):
in her head that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So how do you think that that kind of kind of
progresses so like let's saythat you know, four years into
this you know she's really.
Let me actually ask this adifferent way.
Mm, hmm.
Do you think that you wouldneed to change your coaching
style with her as she getsbetter?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I think I mean that's a really hard question because
I don't know, I don't have thatexperience yet, but I just know
I'm going to grow with herbecause I'm a child centered
coach.
I'm going to be whatever sheneeds me to be and I'm going to
give her the environment for herto figure it out and I'm going
to be her guide.
That's my answer.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
That's the best answer I think I've ever heard.
I mean it's right up there.
I mean you know who answersthat question the same way right
Is Randy Smith, who's ScottyScheffler's coach.
Really, yeah, he answers thatquestion almost identically.
You know it's it's it's reallyhard and it's it's it's
(39:02):
difficult within the industry,especially like as you get
involved with being on list andgetting into like the politics
and everything else.
It's like kind of hard not todrink your own kool-aid from
time to time.
You know it's mind-boggling tome that people call me on a
daily basis and ask my opinionon things.
And there are people that youknow five years ago I thought
(39:22):
like I would be terrified tocall them.
So you know, I mean it's, it'sinteresting, but you know it's
really not about us, it's notabout the coach, it's not about
you know it just in a lot ofways it is like, as you know,
you know when you're at the cluband you're the teaching pro and
(39:44):
you walk into the room, likepeople recognize you and there's
like there's a position ofstature there because of just
what you do, which is it feelsgreat, right, like we all like
that feeling, we all like beingrecognized, and I think the
issue is and this is maybe thedownside of some of that is you
start drinking your own Kool-Aidand, like we all learned in
(40:04):
Scarface, don't get high on yourown supply.
So you know, I think what's socool about you is like if you
were to talk to you, you'd belike, oh, she's out there giving
a couple of lessons, doing itLike you're, you're very.
You never make you the centerof it.
And I think what you just saidwas you know you've got somebody
(40:28):
in front of you who believes inyou and you believe in her, and
you kind of have this growthmindset to where you're just
going to keep getting better sothat you can keep helping her.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Right and I think it's just beautiful because I
that's why I still go to all thestuff I go to and do all the
stuff I do is because you know Ihave a couple people that I
work with, who you know.
I don't get me wrong.
I have people that are betterplayers, that are professional
players that I work with, butthese are like people I've
developed right, like these aremy youngsters.
(41:00):
So, um, when it comes to them,it's it's really what's driven
me is to stay ahead of them.
And you know, they're reallywell-trained, I like to think,
and they know what they're doingand they're very competent and
I'm super proud of them.
So it's it's really I've had topush myself hard just to stay
in front of them, um, but I lovethe fact that you said that,
(41:22):
because I think if you're acoach man like that kind of has
to be.
The why right Is like I gotta,I gotta keep helping, I gotta
stay ahead of this.
Like it's tough man, it'sreally tough especially in this
industry, it's changing quickly.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, yeah, not a lot of pressure when it's a
four-year-old, I can't evenimagine being like Scottie
Scheffler's coach.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Yeah, like the stress of that yeah, I mean, I don't
know what it's like to beScottie Scheffler's coach, but I
because I'm not, uh, but I do Ido know what it's like to to
work at that level and I havebeen on the team when a player's
won, and I've been on the teamwhen a player's been in the lead
and not won, and I've.
(42:05):
I've been through a few ofthese things and it is, it's
it's so different, um, but butnot in a way like it's still the
highest high.
You can feel like whatever thatis is the moment, like, as you
know, even when Sophia, just youknow, hauls off and hits one,
that just really like, looksgreat, like that high that you
(42:26):
get from that, like that's thehighest high, you know, which is
why you're experiencing it solike it's just that probably in
a little bigger amplitude.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, I can't like wow.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Right.
So it's there and you reallywant that high and it's like
we're all just drug addicts outthere, really Like when it comes
from the performance stamp,like we all just want to hold
the trophy at the end of theweek and feel great about
ourselves and think it's nevergoing to stop, when reality it's
going to stop Cause it'salready over.
Like we got to get back to workand we got to do it again and
then you go.
(43:00):
And I think you know to usescotty as the reference I think
that's what really is making himso brilliant right now is his
ability to just like, rinse andrepeat yeah like the ability to
be that well regulated, uh,internally and not, you know,
reading the press and oh, is hethe next tiger?
and all these things and justbeing able to stay very true to
(43:21):
what he does and his beliefsystem.
It's crazy good.
Totally.
Yeah, it's tough, man, likeit's.
It's really tough when, whenyou don't have coaches like you
and you're a youngster helpingyou understand some of this
stuff Like how much better of aplayer would you have been if
you were your coach when youwere young?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Well, I don't want to toot my own horn, but like even
just having a female pro at thecountry club I was at would be
and I would be obsessed withthem yeah, I'd be like I will.
I want to be you, I want tospend all my time with you, I
want to take lessons with you.
Like I only had male pros atall the country clubs.
All the the people that gave mea lesson were male.
Um, so, just like I'm trying tobe what I want I wanted as a
(44:06):
kid of just feeling comfortableat a golf course.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
That's awesome.
I mean, that's, what more couldyou want, right?
Like I mean, that's why I own myown places, because I want to
be me, I, I, I I've been knownto not play in the sandbox well,
with others from time to timeand like I don't ever want
somebody to be able to call myboss and be like, well,
so-and-so is a jerk, so youshould fire him.
And then, like, I get fired.
(44:30):
So, like, I want my own spaceso that I can be me and and I'm
not saying I want to be mean topeople, but I also, like, want
to be me and I want to challengepeople and I want to help
people get better and I want topush cause that's what I believe
my job is as a coach is to makepeople uncomfortable.
So it's like, if that's what Ineed to do to do my job, that I
(44:51):
need space that allows me to dothat.
So I think that it's amazingthat you are creating that space
in a otherwise no fault of theclub, but unwelcoming
environment.
Right, because we don't see alot of ourselves in the uh
population.
That's there, right?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
like even now, to this day, if I'm only girl on
the range, I could get real likejust tight, like I feel it.
And if I feel it, imagine thegirl that's.
This is her first time comingout.
But so I'm intentional aboutgoing to the range so people see
me and more people will feelcomfortable.
Even if I'm like shaking it orit's not that great, you know I
(45:36):
don't care, but I'm making aneffort to do that to make other
people feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Well, now you're talking about a whole other
skill and now you're justtalking about being a great
leader and like really makingI'm the bottom of the totem pole
, but you're not, becausethere's going to be a bunch of
little girls in 20 years talkingabout how you were out there
and they saw you out there andthat's what gave them the
confidence to go out there, andthat's just really awesome, man,
(46:03):
because you know, I don't Idon't want to get into it too
much, just because and thisisn't right either but you know
it's it's such a male dominatedgame, such a male dominated
industry, and there aredefinitely, definitely,
definitely inequities within theindustry, without a single
doubt, and I'm not even going tosay that there isn't, because
(46:27):
there is and it bothers me, itreally does.
I don't like to talk about itbecause it shouldn't be my
platform to speak on it, becauseI would be what I'm complaining
about myself, but there's a lotof women and there's a lot of
people who are not white maleswho would?
(46:48):
really appreciate a golf courseand really appreciate being out
there and I think would reallyfind a lot of inspiration and
really find a lot of what we allfind as golfers through our own
journeys out there.
But they're just, they're notmade to feel welcome and I
understand that, you knowthey're not barred from entry
and it's not like it used to bein a lot of ways.
But just because it's not thesame way it used to be, it
(47:09):
doesn't mean it's as good as itcould be.
Yeah, I think that that'sawesome and I think that's
really the tip of the cap isowed to you, because what you're
doing is, you know, reallyputting yourself out there on a
limb with really the onlybenefit of trying to help, you
know, promote a change at theclub.
(47:30):
I think that's awesome.
Man, like that's.
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, I think visually, just having visual
things have, like where you seea woman doing that, will help
and like just have exponentialthings happening because, like,
if you don't see yourself insome place, it's impossible to
know what that would look likeright, that's really.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean it's, I'm happy you'rewhere you're at, I'm happy that
you're doing your thing.
Um, I mean it's kind of funnybecause I've really racked my
head a little bit because I wasso taken aback.
You were, I believe.
I don't think I'm wrong.
I think you were the onlyperson who was a woman, who came
(48:16):
to the education.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Oh, I was.
I knew that.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Right, and I mean we had about 20, 25 people there.
So I mean, like, and you werethe only woman and I like I
noticed that and I made it apoint to talk to you.
But, besides the fact thatyou're a woman, like I mean you
stood out on your own merit,like you asked great questions,
you were very involved, like youwere, you wanted to learn, and
I think that that's so important, that you're just so committed
(48:44):
to getting better at what you do, that you're willing to not
only go and learn things, butyou're also willing to lead by
example.
I mean that's, that's reallycool, man, like it's.
It's.
It's not easy to put yourselfout there and I didn't
understand, like, where yourcourage came from to show up to
that, because I'm not sure, inthe same situation, I would have
(49:06):
to be perfectly honest.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Oh, I was so scared Like I was like blasting rap
music of like typing myself upI'm like I know I'm going to be
the only girl there.
This will be fine, we're justgoing to just sit and listen.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Yeah, and we even talked to you into going to
lunch and then you hung out fora while and we had a great day.
But you know, I now understandlike where that, where that
dedication and where thatcourage comes from man, like
it's just.
It's such a cool story, lisi.
I'm so I'm happy that we havepeople like you in the industry
and I'm fortunate that I waslucky enough to have you on the
(49:39):
podcast, because this has beenabsolutely great.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
This is like mind boggling.
I never thought this would everhappen for me.
Going to that on a whim yeah,we would.
You would like we making aconnection and like it's been
the best, seriously well, good,I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I want you to get what you want to get out of the
industry, because no matter whatyou take from it, you give way
more than you'll ever take.
So we're very uh, we're veryfortunate to have you, and I
mean it.
If you are a parent listeningto this, if you are a coach, if
you want to get better atcoaching, if you want to develop
(50:18):
the youngsters, if you want tohelp your children, I highly,
highly, highly recommend givingLisi a follow on social media.
You can reach out to her.
She's more than happy to dosome consulting and kind of give
you some ideas.
You know what you can do withyour kids to make sure that they
grow up to love the game anddon't grow up and feel like
spalding and they're just outthere with schmales and
(50:38):
everybody saying that's no goodfor anybody.
So we're going to avoid theSpalding syndrome and we're
going to get these kids lovinggolf.
But to do that you got to reachout to Lisi.
So, Lisi, how can people getahold of you?
Speaker 2 (50:51):
So my Instagram is Lisi Lee to the T.
Came up with that myself.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
It's really good, but you're gonna have to spell that
probably really good, butyou're gonna have to spell that
probably.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Oh yeah, because no one can understand my name.
So it's l-i-s-i-t-h-e,underscore t-e-e.
Basically wait, no, Icompletely butchered that you
just messed that up.
Yeah, try that again well, I'mon Tik TOK too.
I usually post more on Tik TOK.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Okay, well see, I'm not on Tik TOK, so that's why I
don't know that, cause I'm tooold and I have too many gray
hairs my beard.
Well, I can't thank you enough.
It's your one day off.
They love you as much as we doand they keep you at the club as
much as possible.
So you had one day off and youwere nice enough to spend an
hour with us, which I certainlyappreciate, and I know that we
(51:52):
will more than certainly haveyou back on again in the future
and we look forward to hearingabout Sophia's development and
how she's getting better andbeating all the boys, about
Sophia's development and howshe's getting better and beating
all the boys.
And hopefully, by that point,there's about 10 to 15 young
girls standing out there withyou on the driving range, so
you're not out there by yourself.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yeah, that's my dream .
That'd be the best day of mylife.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Awesome.
Well, I think it's going tohappen, so hopefully it does,
and until then, we'll all bewatching.
So thanks again for tuning inand listening to the Measured
Golf Podcast.
We appreciate you guyssupporting this.
If you haven't already, pleasedownload and subscribe to the
podcast.
That's the easiest way you canhelp.
If you want to connect morewith us, you can find us on
Instagram by searching MeasuredGolf or you can find us on the
(52:37):
web by going to measuredgolfcom.
So thanks again for listeningand until next time, keep
grinding.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured
Golf Podcast where we talk allthings golf and try to bring in
some really interesting peopleto help us understand what's
going on with golf, because, aswe all know, it's a complicated
game and we all have ourdifferent reasons why we play it
and what we want to get out ofit.
And it's kind of in that spiritof how we play it and what we
want to get out of it and it'skind of in that spirit of how we
(00:25):
play it and how we get betterat it that we arrived at our
next guest and I was fortunateenough to meet her over in the
Washington DC area while doingan education and she just stood
out like a sore thumb from apretty good group of instructors
and her passion and hercommitment to young people is
really something to see and I'vegot to know her a little bit
(00:48):
and been fortunate enough toshare some information with her
and I always learn so much fromher every time I talk to her
because she's just so good atunderstanding early childhood
development and how theyoungsters learn and I thought
it would be really good, insteadof talking about tour players
for an entire episode again,maybe if we talked a little bit
(01:08):
more about our youngsters andgetting them onto the golf
course and supporting them in ameaningful way and that doesn't
mean just buying them lessonsand buying them clubs and
putting them into golftournaments but how do we make
golf meaningful?
So, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce Lisey Mueller,
and I'm excited to have her on.
So say hello, lisey.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Hello, I'm good.
I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about your day-to-day
activities and kind of what youdo within the golf industry.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, so I'm an assistant pro at a private
country club.
I teach a lot of juniors andwomen and also, obviously, the
grunt work of being an assistantpro takes up a lot of my time
as well.
But my joy is teaching kids,learning about just how they
learn and doing research andapplying my crazy ideas to get
(02:01):
them to get excited and come tothe course.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
So what are some of these crazy ideas?
Because you've shared a couplewith me, but maybe my definition
of crazy and your definition ofcrazy doesn't match the
audience.
So tell us a little bit moreabout some of these crazy ideas
that you've put into play.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yeah, so I study education for my bachelor's at
Dickinson and so I know a lotabout child psychology and how
those things work.
Inside a classroom.
It's the same thing when youare on the golf course it's
still a classroom and there'sthings in place in so many
studies that you can use in thesame way.
So a lot of the things I dowith my little kids that are
(02:41):
like 10 and below a lot ofvisual things.
So I have stuffed animals thatI use.
I have an octopus named Shellywho is sticky feet, who watches
sticky feet.
I have a turtle named Franklinthat is making sure that they're
aware of how fast they'reswinging and if they're fat, if
they're too fast, Franklindefinitely steps in, is like,
(03:03):
well, that was way too fast, waytoo fast.
And then I have a monkey who'sprobably my favorite out of all
of them with my kids.
His name's Rory and I got itfrom Erica Larkin.
It's one of those Velcro handmonkeys that teaches how to use
your body visually instead ofyour arms moving the club, and
(03:23):
that really works like magic.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
That's so awesome.
You got some stuffed animals.
I think I remember you tellingme about some ribbons too, if I
remember correctly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So if you know what?
Like a baton ribbon, it's likea stick and then it's a really
long ribbon.
So I cut it down and basicallylet them use the ribbon and make
the noise, of using their bodyto make the noise and they'll
learn, because when they justuse their arm it's not as loud
and not as fun and when they usetheir body to do it it's way
(03:53):
louder.
And you got to be a little bitcareful with, like the older
kids.
They go a little crazy with it,but just them having that
feeling that they can own iseverything, because they're
trying to make theirunderstanding of the golf swing
at a really young age.
That is incredibly complicatedonce they get older.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, that's.
I mean it's funny because we'vetalked in the past and I think
when we first met you were likeI've got some ideas, but maybe
they're kind of crazy, and youwere a little.
And you know, I I love the factthat you know.
You know whether it's it'sinternal or external.
You know you feel maybeslightly out of place with what
(04:35):
you're doing sometimes but youstill, um, you still pursue it
and you still do it, even thoughmaybe you feel a little
uncomfortable or maybe you knowyou're slightly awkward.
But I think that that'sprobably what connects you so
well to the youngsters, right,like your ability to not have
that like self-awareness yetmaybe just like be a kid with
(04:57):
them.
I just think that's sobeautiful because I think as we,
as we specialize and as webecome you know quote unquote,
famous coaches or whatever um,you know it's like we kind of
lose a little bit of that, weforget cause we get away from
that.
And I just love the fact thatyou're so happy to be in the
(05:18):
trenches of where everybody elsetypically is trying to run away
from as fast as possible.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah, for sure, definitely no one really wants
to teach the juniors, especiallythe ones that are super hyper.
But I think I'm definitely akid at heart, for sure.
But I struggled in school whenI was that age Like I had
dyslexia, I had an auditoryprocessing disorder, like school
was hard and every kid learnsdifferently.
School is hard and every kidlearns differently and there's
(05:44):
just not one way to teach.
And I think being able to becreative in a world that I
absolutely adore, I want to givemy gift of golf to these kids
and teach them in any type ofway that will make them excited
to come to the golf course.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Dude, that's awesome, like that's so what it's about.
And uh, you know I haven't toldyou this but I was just over in
the UK and uh, me and Aram uhKashigian, our full-time trainer
here at measured golf, we wereout playing the uh second course
at current USD called Burnsideand it's considered to be the
(06:23):
junior course to thechampionship course, but it's
still like a golf course rankedin the top 10 in Scotland, so
it's still like a great golfcourse.
But we saw like several womenout on the golf course, like
small groups of them, and youcould tell like there was like a
leader within the group thatwas kind of shepherding the
other women and kind of helpingthem like kind of figure out how
(06:43):
to play and whatnot, likealmost, almost in like a four
caddy kind of position.
And then we saw a lot ofchildren out there who were
playing golf and like they hadtheir parents, either their dad
or their mom, with them, but theparents weren't playing golf,
they were just like with thekids and helping them kind of
get around the golf course withthe kids and helping them kind
(07:04):
of get around the golf courseand like it was this really
simplistic kind of like hey, wemight not know how to swing the
golf club and we might not knowhow to tell you how to do this
better or whatever, but we cantell you how to like keep up and
tell you how to rake a bunker,and tell you how to fix a ball
mark and to repair your divotand like do these things.
(07:25):
And it's like I think so many ofus wanted like jump into, like
the super cool stuff and what'sgoing on on tour.
But, like, for most peoplelistening to this, this
conversation that we're havingis way more applicable to their
life, their life, because, eventhough a lot of what we're
(07:46):
talking about is stuff we do forearly childhood development and
for the youngsters, a lot ofthese same things are what we
need to do with new golfers,because, in a way, they're like
early adults within golf andthey don't really know what to
do either.
And I think a lot of what youdo I hate to call it kind of
childish, because it isn'tbecause I think most of what you
do would work with adults tooif we could get them to like let
(08:08):
their ego down enough toactually try something different
.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean I think the etiquettething is big.
Like when I started playinggolf, like love my dad he's the
one that got me into golf hewould not let me play until I
knew etiquette.
He would not let me play untilI knew etiquette.
So I would sit there with allhis military guys foursome 7.30
in the morning watchingeverything until I knew the
(08:31):
rules.
Then he finally would let meplay.
But not all kids are like that.
Like I was a golf nerd so it'slike I could handle that.
But there's different ways tolike teach a kid to love the
game and like.
I think etiquette and keepingup is like key when you're
learning.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's, it's massively key and it's it's just
frustrating because I think youknow, I think a lot of times
junior golf is really anafterthought, and especially in
this country.
Um, I think you know, know, weworry about the first two hours
of the tee sheet during the dayand that's about it for the most
(09:09):
part.
When it comes to, like, clublevel golf, and it's scary
because you know the generationnow, the youngsters.
You know everything is graded,everything is critiqued,
everything is put on socialmedia, everything is documented
and, like the youngsters feelthis immense pressure to perform
(09:29):
at a high level, no matter whatthey're doing, like everything
has to be Instagram perfect attimes.
So I think the thing that'sworrisome is that, with all this
pressure to succeed, as youknow, as I know, as anybody
listening to this knows, golf isnot easy in the beginning by
any stretch of the imagination.
And if we're not putting theresources around these new
(09:54):
golfers and this next generationand helping them develop and
learn how to get around a golfcourse and how not to be yelled
at by the starter all the timebecause they're way behind or
whatever's going on, if we don'tstart developing this next
generation, like what's going tohappen to golf in this country
Because I think we're alreadyseeing there's a massive access
(10:14):
problem.
But you know, if we have anaccess problem and then we're
not developing the people thatdo get access, we're just not
going to have the nextgeneration of golfers ready to
go when this one's, you know,going out and retiring from the
game.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Yeah, exactly, and golf can break your heart.
Imagine being heartbroken aboutgolf and you're eight years old
.
That hurts me.
So, like we have to preparethem.
It's a mental battle, you know.
You have to make that mentaltoughness in.
The earlier that you do that,the better golfer they will be.
Like.
So, for me, I this is my adviceto like any dad, mom that are
(10:50):
teaching their kids when you'rewatching your kid go and they
hit a good shot, resist beinglike wow, that was great.
You have to resist that and ifyou do say that, you have to say
why.
Or like, wow, you use all yourmuscles on that one.
You really turned yourshoulders on that one because
they're gonna look to you beinglike was that good, was that
(11:11):
good?
But you, they have to know it'sgood and you give them the
tools to do that.
Like with my three year old,she always looks at me for
approval and I mean I've beentrying to get her out of that
and I, every time I like I'vehad to stop being like wow, that
was good, cause she does hitamazing shots.
I'm just like, wow, you use allyour muscles and I'll touch her
shoulders.
I'm like you used all yourshoulders.
(11:32):
That time, you know, and justlike you really looked at the
ball, that ball went so high.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
But that's just such great reinforcement, right, like
that's so well done from afeedback perspective.
Because, you know, the thingthat I I the thing that's tough
for coaches, right, and thething that I get frustrated with
with other coaches is, you know, they'll kind of run out of
tricks and they are very adamantabout what needs to change for
(12:01):
this person or this youngster orwhoever, but they're like hey,
it feels like this, come on, yougotta, you gotta get that.
And it's like well, you mayunderstand how that feels
because you've done that before,but this person doesn't know
how that feels.
So, you know, you may ask ayoungster to do something and
they don't really have a feelfor that at all.
(12:22):
But the fact that you'restepping in, if it's a, if it's
a good, you know result, andtouching the thing you're trying
to change and then being like,hey, great job, like that helps
them build some of thatawareness and it helps create
some of those feelings.
So I think that's awesome, man.
Like really good.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, I'm definitely a child centered coach, but
that's what I kind of go through.
I kind of let them lead andlike creativity.
So another thing me and sophia,like little as she's four now
we'll use animals because sheloves animals.
So we'll go like swing like acheetah, swing like a turtle
turtle you have to be carefulwith, because they're just gonna
(13:01):
like drag the club and you haveto explain like turtles are
really strong, they have a hugeshell and then she's like you're
right, but they're just veryintentional in their movements.
We'll go through so manyanimals, but she hits a million
balls.
That's like the key and she'shaving fun doing it and also
learning about rhythm and tempowithout me saying it to her,
(13:23):
because she can can't understandthat yet.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right, she has no definition for those words.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
No, it's a feeling.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Right, and that's.
I mean that's.
You know, we kinda we waxpoetically about the golf swing
itself a lot, but at the end ofthe day it's, you know, from the
time it starts to the time youhit the ball.
You've got a second and there'sa lot of things you're going to
feel in that second, butthere's not very many conscious
thoughts you're going to be ableto have within that second.
(13:51):
Yes.
And you know, for a youngsterwho has to kind of translate
every word because they're notaccustomed to, like, talking
about physics or mechanics orwhatever you know, there's just
not enough time in the world fortheir brain to make that swing.
So, by kind of focusing on thefields and getting them to
(14:12):
understand like, hey, what do wewant to happen here?
Like what would good look like?
You know, I think with with theyoungsters, the hardest thing
is is you kind of have to holdthe ball almost behind you.
Uh, it's kind of like my goldenretriever If she sees the ball
in my hand she knows I'mthrowing it, so I have to hide
it from her.
But like, it's kind of like youhave to hide the ball a little
(14:32):
bit and go hey, what are wegoing to do on this next shot?
Which animal are we going toswing?
Like you kind of.
Like you said, let them lead.
But then, like, if they seethat happen now it's like okay,
like now they can own.
That it was good because theyunderstood what they were trying
to do.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, and what's really interesting is one time
out she was like can I do itlike a snake?
And then she's like I'm goingto top the ball, so it goes on
the ground like a snake and I'mlike I never taught you what
even that is.
But she's learning her the clubface of where it is.
Like what that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Isn't that cool.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Like the thing that.
The thing that I think isinteresting, right, like is we
look at this like conversationand we look at like coaching
juniors and we're like, oh,that's cute, that's a fun team.
You know what I mean.
But in reality, you know, whenyou send me videos and I see the
(15:31):
people on your Instagram, I seepeople really like enjoying
golf, like you just said thatright.
Like you've got a three or fouryear old that's hitting a
million golf balls and isexcited about it and it's
probably talking about it athome.
And then it's probably likewhen can we go to the golf
course?
When can I see Lisi again?
And before we started thisconversation, the recorded part,
(15:52):
lisi was showing me, you know,all these amazing notes and all
these amazing drawings that ourclients have made and it's like,
look, if that's happening,that's happening away from the
golf course.
So you're having like thismeaningful connection to these
young people through golf, andI've.
I think you know, at the end ofthe day, man, golf should be fun
(16:14):
, promoting fun, and like Ireally appreciate that because I
feel like I'm way too damnstuffy all the time and
constantly trying to take allthe fun away from it.
But I think that you know, goingback to the idea that this is
cute or less than it's like dude, if you're a person that plays
golf recreationally and, youknow, don't have aspirations of
(16:37):
being a tour player and all that, which is 85% playing golf, by
the way, like, if you're thatlike maybe you know, introduce a
couple animals to your practiceroutine and see if it doesn't
like at least you're going tohave some fun again.
You know what I mean.
I don't understand, like, why,you know we look at the people
(16:57):
who are mega successful teachingyoungsters and we don't try to
extrapolate more of that intoteaching adults, because even
though they're an adult by youknow years, on this planet's
perspective, like within golf, alot of these adults are infants
.
You know, they're just pickingup the game, they're new,
they're COVID golfers, they'vebeen around for a couple of
(17:17):
years but just kind of beenwhacking golf balls like we all
do in the beginning.
But how do we, how do we takesome of what you're sharing and
implement that and gettingpeople more open to exploring
their feelings so that they canget better at golf?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, maybe done in the private of your own home.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, I honestly, though, I think that that's
where, like AI and a lot of thevirtual coaching and stuff like
that, I think that's where ithas a real strength.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, no for sure.
Also, hopping is a good thingtoo.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
And you kind of inspired that because it's
basically like pressure transfer.
So little kids are very topheavy, like their head is very
big, so balance is hard.
It's very impressive for a kidto learn how to walk, if you
really think about it.
So like balance is somethingyou have to teach a kid.
So I'll create hopscotch forSophia and basically what I'm
(18:13):
teaching her is to use her legsto create that turn and then
I'll make her do a completely360 and try to balance like from
jumping, like here and then 360, jump to where your feet were
before and that's basically whata golf swing is.
And after we did that for acouple of times she was hitting
(18:33):
the ball like with her body,without even like making the
connection.
It was just teaching her bodyhow to move.
And now her mom will alwayssend me videos.
She does the hopscotch anywhere.
She goes in the beginning andthen launches it and everyone's
like looking at her like whoathat's so awesome too.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
But I mean it's just like you're on her level, like
you're coaching her where she'sat with you know things she's
able to do.
Uh, like, the hopscotch thingis brilliant, you know.
I mean I hear a lot.
You know there's like this andI I, to be honest, I kind of
used to subscribe to this alittle bit but you know, there's
like kind of this junior golfswing and then there's like kind
(19:17):
of like a more grown-up, adultgolf swing, right like right the
juniors allegedly don't have asmuch core strength when they're
younger and they tend to kindof pin the golf club behind them
and then just kind of try torip it through there as hard as
they can to make speed.
and then we know that you know,generally as you grow up and get
older and develop some corestrength and like you, you know
(19:38):
that kind of soft draw turnsinto a hard hook and it's like
then we got to learn how to getthe golf club more connected
again.
So, I I used to kind of thinkthat that was kind of true-ish,
but really I think what you'resaying and kind of what I've
been thinking for a little bithere lately, is it's not so much
that the youngsters don't havethese muscles, they do have
(20:00):
these.
Yeah.
It's not like you grow extramuscles as you get older, like
it doesn't work that way, um,but it's.
They don't have awareness ofthose muscles and maybe they
haven't done a specific activitythat forces them to, you know,
kind of connect the brain tothat muscle via the nervous
system.
Right, by doing things that areactive and fun and, like age
(20:26):
appropriate, like hopscotch, andgetting her to twist and move
in those certain ways, you'reliterally creating that
connection between the brain andthe muscle.
So now, when she gets over thatgolf ball and starts moving,
it's like a kind of oh wait,there's that connection.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
They're engaged, like I feel them now.
Yeah, I mean that's.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's just so.
It's like I said it's.
It's a very it seems likechildish way to get something
very specific done.
But it's actually justunderstanding who you're trying
to explain this to and whoyou're actually trying to get to
do it, just understanding whoyou're trying to explain this to
and who you're actually tryingto get to do it.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah, so I try to always connect what someone
would do in at school, you know,like their classroom.
That's what I.
So I try as much as I can.
So I think of like recess popscotch she knows that she can
relate to that, or she doesballet.
So I'm like sometimes like, canyou stand on?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
one.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
That's why she's so good because she does ballet
yeah, now, yeah, now I know whatthe secret is.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
It's not Lisey, it's that she does ballet.
That's what it is I've.
Yet If you find young women whodo ballet and retire early
before they just completelydestroy their legs.
If you find one of those, theymake great golfers.
Yeah.
For sure yeah.
(21:43):
That is, they make great golfers.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's awesome though.
Yeah, so she does ballet, shedoes all these things Right, but
you're still able to take thosecompletely non-golf movements
and apply them to golf Right,and that's where you know.
I said this at the educationthat you attended in DC, but you
really got to take the time totalk to your clients, whether
(22:03):
they're a junior or an adult,and you have to understand where
they're coming from.
You have to understand, likewhat have they done?
What are they familiar with?
What have they already put10,000 hours in with Right?
And once you kind of understandlike, oh, she does ballet and
she likes to do hopscotch, it'slike, okay, how can I use these
things to kind of get her tounderstand that we can use these
(22:27):
same things within golf?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
right, right, like it's not a whole, separate
animal.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
No pun intended yeah, well, you can make another
animal.
You're very good at that,you're very creative.
That's awesome.
So I'm curious too, becausethere's a part to your story
that I think is really, reallycool.
And you kind of had a corporategig going and you were like,
(22:53):
hey, I don't really love thiscorporate gig.
And then you were reallypassionate about getting into
coaching and you took a sizablepay cut and got into coaching
yeah I'm like I can't tell you,man, I just think that is so
cool.
Um, I did basically the samething when I got into, you know,
full-time coaching and it's noteasy to do.
(23:15):
It probably took me two tothree years to make that
decision.
You know like I decided I wasgoing to do it.
Probably took me two to threeyears to make that decision.
You know, like I decided I wasgoing to do it.
Then it probably took threeyears to do it.
Um, but I just I think that'sreally cool, but I I think that
that's something that is part ofyour journey.
That's also something that youenjoy sharing with people.
Right Is like yeah, you're sopassionate about this that you
(23:36):
were willing to do that.
And then then, like you justshow up to work every day and
you're like, hey, isn't this thegreatest day ever?
We're like the greatest placeever.
Isn't this great?
Like everything is great, great, great and I just love that
about you.
I think that's so cool.
But I think finding theconfidence to do that like what
was the final straw to where youwere finally, like you know
what man like I gotta, I gottaget into coaching, like now.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
So I coached field hockey and lacrosse from the
moment I graduated in 2018.
I was the head coach of a fieldhockey team varsity field
hockey team in Preston and Iloved it.
So I worked full time nine tofive and then every day I was at
the school till like 10, evenon Saturdays.
Like it was a rough, it was alot, lot, but I it was like the
(24:19):
only saving grace for me.
Like I loved going there.
I loved those girls so much andwe were really successful.
Like we had an undefeatedseason.
We went to the state tournamentfor the first time in like uh,
since the 1980s.
So I was like wait, maybe I'mactually good at this and like I
love it so much and I hate mydesk job.
Like recruiting, I was inrecruiting and it's it's a grind
(24:40):
.
Like I loved it.
I was good at this, and like Ilove it so much and I hate my
desk job.
Like recruiting, I was inrecruiting and it's it's a grind
.
Like I loved it.
I was good at it, but it waslike eating away at me and I was
like hating it way more thanthe normal person.
Like everyone hates their job,but like it was just like not
good yeah um it makes you feelbetter.
I weighed 215 pounds when Ihated my job oh man um so you
(25:06):
hated it yeah, I hated it and Istarted doing research about the
PGA and I thought that you hadto go to school for it and, like
, get a degree in it, and Ididn't.
And so I talked to a recruiterand they like called me back in
like two seconds.
They're like you want to be anassistant problem?
Like yeah, is it possible?
I'm like, um, yeah, there'slike no women that want to do
(25:28):
this.
Like you can go wherever.
Like I could place you in 500places.
I'm like whoa, whoa, okay, allright, maybe this is real, maybe
I can do it.
Um, so I was so scared to go tomy interview.
I did not know what I waswalking myself into, but I kind
of explained my story and mypassion.
(25:49):
I played college golf.
I'm a successful coach in adifferent sport, but I can
relate to people well, and so Ikind of just made the decision.
I also had an offer for anotherrecruiting gig at the same time
.
That was triple the salary noteven joking, I'm not joking and
I chose the assistant pro routeat a girl poverty, seriously,
everyone you're psychotic, butI'm like I gotta try, I gotta
(26:15):
try it and I'm so glad I didLike yes.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I'm glad you did, I'm thrilled you did Like I mean,
you're, you're just you, like Isaid, you literally stand out
from a crowd and your passionfor this is, you know, really
just off the charts man.
And you know whether, whetherwe get anything accomplished in
this podcast or not, I couldreally care less.
(26:39):
But I want, I want people tolike see what amazing people
there are in the golf space and,like you know, I think people
listen to these podcasts to getanswers to questions and if, if
you have questions about hey,what should I be doing?
You know, with my three yearold.
I want him to grow up and lovegolf so we can play golf
together.
Well, I want them to knowthere's people like Lisi in the
(27:02):
world who are like, really goodwith the kids and like you can
reach out to these peoplebecause there are so many people
in our industry who are just init for all the right reasons
and are very passionate andreally care and love it.
And then you know, unfortunately, modern times, you know our
game, our industry.
(27:23):
You know people don't likehearing about the money that
they're playing for and all ofthis stuff and it's like that's
not what golf is man, Like Idon't know what's happened to
our industry, but it seems likeeverything revolves around the
professional game and it's likeit's such a small piece of the
game it's really, by all intentsand purposes, it shouldn't
(27:44):
really even matter.
Like, what those guys and girlsdo is is so much different than
what we do.
It's not even a comparable,really, other than the fact
we're both technically playinggolf.
I promise you we're not playingthe same game.
Like how could we get back towhere, like, golf is fun and
people enjoy it and people laugh, and you know, that's the thing
(28:04):
I really appreciated about golfover, especially in Scotland.
It's very the golf course isvery kind of the center of the
community right, everybodywithin that community, whether
they play golf or not and mostof them do play golf, but
whether they're, like, reallygolfers or not doesn't change
the fact that the golf course isstill like something special.
(28:27):
It's part of the community andit creates like a place for
people to come together andmaybe talk about things and
maybe have conversation withoutit turning into a fistfight.
So I think we just need more ofthat and I think that, for
whatever reason, at least in theUS and the way golf is here, we
(28:49):
just we've really lost sight oflike this.
Hey, we're trying to be goodstewards of the game and trying
to make sure that, you know,there's a generation after us
that's ready to go andunderstands how to take care of
this game and how to like makesure that the next generation
loves it, because, like I loveYouTube, we're obviously part of
the problem.
We're contributing to it as wespeak, but there's a lot that's
(29:12):
getting lost in translation whenit comes to how we pass golf on
to the next generation, when itcomes to how we pass golf on to
the next generation and I'm notsaying we can't do it digitally
, but we need to find a betterway to share more stories like
yours.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, yeah, I think I say this to myself all the time
but no one owns golf.
Like no one.
Golf can look like whatever youwant it to look like.
Like, there's these two ladies.
They're like 92 years old, theyplay every Tuesday, every
Friday, and they play so fast.
They complain about the tasteplay.
It's almost like a repeat reel,but they love it.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
That's what they live for man.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I love it.
You know the lifelong game.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah for sure, and I mean it's just.
You know, I think so manypeople just worry about you know
.
You know this is the thing Ihate.
This is the thing I reallydon't like the most about junior
golf right now is so manypeople, you know, like we talked
about a little bit earlier, somany people are like, hey, we
got little Timmy some lessons.
(30:15):
Little Timmy's ready to go.
Okay, we're putting littleTimmy in a tournament, Right,
and like the parents don't know,like what's going to happen in
that tournament, Just likelittle Timmy doesn't know what's
right in that golf tournament.
The difference is the parentssomewhat can like keep it
together, and the difference isa little Timmy has no idea how
to emotionally regulate Right,Right and like the.
(30:38):
The problem with that is is thatwe're really doing a lot of
damage to these young people andpushing them into competition
when they're not ready.
And they're not ready becausewe haven't even had the
conversation with them about howwe compete, what that means,
how that doesn't affect ourself-worth, Like we're not
having those really importantconversations with these young
(30:59):
people before we put them outthere and then it's okay.
They've been out there for twoyears, they haven't broken 85.
They haven't finished in thetop 10.
Oh, we're going to bump them upbecause they need better
competition.
Yeah, and it's like wait aminute, they they are not
beating the kids that they'retheir age.
What makes you think they'regoing to beat the?
They're not.
Yeah.
And it's like we just keepmoving the goalpost on these
(31:22):
youngsters and it's like they'renever good enough unless they
qualify for the U S open at 12.
Yeah.
That's only good enough untilnext year, when somebody does it
at 11.
So it's it's like we're justconstantly moving these
goalposts.
And I love what you're talkingabout, which is hey, man, we're
not talking about draws andfades and distance control and,
(31:43):
like I love the fact you'retalking about like hey, how do
we, how do we swing it with somekind of connection between the
club and the body, how do weswing it with, like, some kind
of rhythm and some kind of like,like and, most importantly, how
do we make it fun?
Yeah.
Like that's, that's what'simportant.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Yeah, like my goal of my lessons with my kids
eventually is for them to go outon a range and they hit a shot
and they know in their head, intheir whatever, how they
understand it was either whatthey wanted to happen or not and
what went wrong or like whatthe contact felt like.
So they don't have all thesepeople coming up to them and
(32:25):
telling them all this advice.
Especially as a young girl, Isee it all the time like it.
When I was growing up, so manypeople were telling me what to
do because I wasn't confident inmyself, because I thought I
couldn't know everything youknow.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
It's funny, though, right Like, I think it's very.
It's awesome that you sharedthat, because that's a very
personal feeling.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Oh, it's worse.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Right, but I think I don't.
I have no doubt in my mind thatyou would attract More
unsolicited advice than I did,for sure.
Yeah, with that said, I took itthe same way you did because I
(33:14):
didn't have the confidence andwhat I was supposed to be doing
to be like.
Thank you very much, Iappreciate that, but like I kind
of have a thing I'm working on,so thank you Right.
So I don't think the secondpart to that is necessarily
gender specific.
Yeah.
You know what I mean.
I think that that's just poorcoaching and I think that's poor
development.
Because if we as coaches or weas facilitators or stewards of
(33:39):
the game are letting people walkaround and not feel like they
know what they should be tryingto do, then why are we taking
their money?
You know, like I don't feellike we're doing very, a very
good job as the coach or thefacilitator If we're not kind of
getting out in front of thatand getting like those things
(34:00):
put in place, like hey, I knowyou're only four years old, but
when you go to the driving range, this is what good looks.
Like.
Yeah, like this is how we makeit look good.
We put our bag right here.
We make sure we don't make amess, we don't get in the way.
Da, da, da, da, da.
Like we hit our balls.
We hit them confident.
We hit them like whatever andlike you.
Just that's what I try to getpeople to focus on more of these
(34:22):
human skills.
How many times or whatpercentage of the time did you
run your processes on the coursetoday?
Like that's a big question forme.
I'll ask that I'll never askwhat you shot.
I don't care, like I obviouslydo.
I live in a performanceenvironment.
But at the end of the day, like, how much of the time were you
(34:42):
actually doing what you'retraining yourself to do?
Right, because if we're notdoing that, then the score
doesn't matter.
Like you can go out there andjust play with your buddies and
not give a crap and have acouple but you know, a couple of
Budweiser's and whatever, andlike slap around and shoot 68.
But that doesn't mean you'regoing to go shoot 68 the next
day in a tournament.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Bro preach right.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
So it's like, how do we get good at like running
these systems and running theseprocesses?
And I think that most of whatyou've talked about today,
without talking about it whichis your gift, right's kind of
like teaching these youngsterslike, hey, this is how we go
about doing this yeah, we'redoing it right now with stuffed
(35:26):
animals and balloons and, youknow, ribbons, but, like, this
is how they're going to learn.
And if I walked up to the samekids, I was like, hey, kids, you
got to do this, this and this.
And I said the exact same stuffas you're saying, but just
vocalized it.
I'm going to be upset all thetime because the kids are never
going to listen to me.
And it's not because we'resaying a different thing, it's
(35:47):
because you're doing such abetter job creating context that
they understand that they'renot understanding from me.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, I mean, just think about it like you're a
little kid and you have allthese grown men slamming their
driver on the range.
You don't even look like them,like you're tiny.
How could they?
How can they see that theycould do that?
So a lot of times I'll haveSophia watch Alex, this girl
Alexis, that's very good at theclub because she doesn't like
(36:16):
watching me swing.
I't look like her, I'm so muchtaller than her.
That's unattainable, but sheloves watching this girl and
she'll copy her um and hersisters and stuff go find a you
like a lost golf club in the bagroom.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Cut it in half, put a grip on it and hit some shots
off your knees true that's agood idea.
See, I got you.
Make sure it's like a wedge,though, because you need lots of
loft when you get real shortlike that.
Trust me.
Okay, okay.
Seven iron turns into about athree iron.
That short, oh God.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
It's embarrassed myself.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, exactly, I want to make sure you look good in
front of kids, I mean.
So it's interesting, though,right Like so, in your world, in
your view.
So, as Sophia develops, whatdoes that ideally kind of look
like for you over the next,let's say, five to 10 years?
(37:15):
Like my relationship with her,or like your relationship with
her and how do you think thatthat's going to have to evolve
and change?
Right, because, like right now,like the animals and all that
works great, but as she getsolder, she's, it's just like you
know anybody else they loseinterest in barbie at a certain
point yeah, like we don't evenuse the animals anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
We talk about animals like so she'll.
She can recognize my octopussticky feet.
She'll be like oh, no, stickyfeet, you know, without my
animal there with us.
Sometimes she'll ask for roryto come, the monkey, but she
doesn't ask for him.
But she's like that was a roryswing.
She can recognize it becauseshe knows, has that visual cue
(37:56):
in her head that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So how do you think that that kind of kind of
progresses so like let's saythat you know, four years into
this you know she's really.
Let me actually ask this adifferent way.
Mm, hmm.
Do you think that you wouldneed to change your coaching
style with her as she getsbetter?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I think I mean that's a really hard question because
I don't know, I don't have thatexperience yet, but I just know
I'm going to grow with herbecause I'm a child centered
coach.
I'm going to be whatever sheneeds me to be and I'm going to
give her the environment for herto figure it out and I'm going
to be her guide.
That's my answer.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
That's the best answer I think I've ever heard.
I mean it's right up there.
I mean you know who answersthat question the same way right
Is Randy Smith, who's ScottyScheffler's coach.
Really, yeah, he answers thatquestion almost identically.
You know it's it's it's reallyhard and it's it's it's
(39:02):
difficult within the industry,especially like as you get
involved with being on list andgetting into like the politics
and everything else.
It's like kind of hard not todrink your own kool-aid from
time to time.
You know it's mind-boggling tome that people call me on a
daily basis and ask my opinionon things.
And there are people that youknow five years ago I thought
(39:22):
like I would be terrified tocall them.
So you know, I mean it's, it'sinteresting, but you know it's
really not about us, it's notabout the coach, it's not about
you know it just in a lot ofways it is like, as you know,
you know when you're at the cluband you're the teaching pro and
(39:44):
you walk into the room, likepeople recognize you and there's
like there's a position ofstature there because of just
what you do, which is it feelsgreat, right, like we all like
that feeling, we all like beingrecognized, and I think the
issue is and this is maybe thedownside of some of that is you
start drinking your own Kool-Aidand, like we all learned in
(40:04):
Scarface, don't get high on yourown supply.
So you know, I think what's socool about you is like if you
were to talk to you, you'd belike, oh, she's out there giving
a couple of lessons, doing itLike you're, you're very.
You never make you the centerof it.
And I think what you just saidwas you know you've got somebody
(40:28):
in front of you who believes inyou and you believe in her, and
you kind of have this growthmindset to where you're just
going to keep getting better sothat you can keep helping her.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Right and I think it's just beautiful because I
that's why I still go to all thestuff I go to and do all the
stuff I do is because you know Ihave a couple people that I
work with, who you know.
I don't get me wrong.
I have people that are betterplayers, that are professional
players that I work with, butthese are like people I've
developed right, like these aremy youngsters.
(41:00):
So, um, when it comes to them,it's it's really what's driven
me is to stay ahead of them.
And you know, they're reallywell-trained, I like to think,
and they know what they're doingand they're very competent and
I'm super proud of them.
So it's it's really I've had topush myself hard just to stay
in front of them, um, but I lovethe fact that you said that,
(41:22):
because I think if you're acoach man like that kind of has
to be.
The why right Is like I gotta,I gotta keep helping, I gotta
stay ahead of this.
Like it's tough man, it'sreally tough especially in this
industry, it's changing quickly.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, yeah, not a lot of pressure when it's a
four-year-old, I can't evenimagine being like Scottie
Scheffler's coach.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Yeah, like the stress of that yeah, I mean, I don't
know what it's like to beScottie Scheffler's coach, but I
because I'm not, uh, but I do Ido know what it's like to to
work at that level and I havebeen on the team when a player's
won, and I've been on the teamwhen a player's been in the lead
and not won, and I've.
(42:05):
I've been through a few ofthese things and it is, it's
it's so different, um, but butnot in a way like it's still the
highest high.
You can feel like whatever thatis is the moment, like, as you
know, even when Sophia, just youknow, hauls off and hits one,
that just really like, looksgreat, like that high that you
(42:26):
get from that, like that's thehighest high, you know, which is
why you're experiencing it solike it's just that probably in
a little bigger amplitude.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, I can't like wow.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Right.
So it's there and you reallywant that high and it's like
we're all just drug addicts outthere, really Like when it comes
from the performance stamp,like we all just want to hold
the trophy at the end of theweek and feel great about
ourselves and think it's nevergoing to stop, when reality it's
going to stop Cause it'salready over.
Like we got to get back to workand we got to do it again and
then you go.
(43:00):
And I think you know to usescotty as the reference I think
that's what really is making himso brilliant right now is his
ability to just like, rinse andrepeat yeah like the ability to
be that well regulated, uh,internally and not, you know,
reading the press and oh, is hethe next tiger?
and all these things and justbeing able to stay very true to
(43:21):
what he does and his beliefsystem.
It's crazy good.
Totally.
Yeah, it's tough, man, likeit's.
It's really tough when, whenyou don't have coaches like you
and you're a youngster helpingyou understand some of this
stuff Like how much better of aplayer would you have been if
you were your coach when youwere young?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Well, I don't want to toot my own horn, but like even
just having a female pro at thecountry club I was at would be
and I would be obsessed withthem yeah, I'd be like I will.
I want to be you, I want tospend all my time with you, I
want to take lessons with you.
Like I only had male pros atall the country clubs.
All the the people that gave mea lesson were male.
Um, so, just like I'm trying tobe what I want I wanted as a
(44:06):
kid of just feeling comfortableat a golf course.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
That's awesome.
I mean, that's, what more couldyou want, right?
Like I mean, that's why I own myown places, because I want to
be me, I, I, I I've been knownto not play in the sandbox well,
with others from time to timeand like I don't ever want
somebody to be able to call myboss and be like, well,
so-and-so is a jerk, so youshould fire him.
And then, like, I get fired.
(44:30):
So, like, I want my own spaceso that I can be me and and I'm
not saying I want to be mean topeople, but I also, like, want
to be me and I want to challengepeople and I want to help
people get better and I want topush cause that's what I believe
my job is as a coach is to makepeople uncomfortable.
So it's like, if that's what Ineed to do to do my job, that I
(44:51):
need space that allows me to dothat.
So I think that it's amazingthat you are creating that space
in a otherwise no fault of theclub, but unwelcoming
environment.
Right, because we don't see alot of ourselves in the uh
population.
That's there, right?
Speaker 2 (45:13):
like even now, to this day, if I'm only girl on
the range, I could get real likejust tight, like I feel it.
And if I feel it, imagine thegirl that's.
This is her first time comingout.
But so I'm intentional aboutgoing to the range so people see
me and more people will feelcomfortable.
Even if I'm like shaking it orit's not that great, you know I
(45:36):
don't care, but I'm making aneffort to do that to make other
people feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Well, now you're talking about a whole other
skill and now you're justtalking about being a great
leader and like really makingI'm the bottom of the totem pole
, but you're not, becausethere's going to be a bunch of
little girls in 20 years talkingabout how you were out there
and they saw you out there andthat's what gave them the
confidence to go out there, andthat's just really awesome, man,
(46:03):
because you know, I don't Idon't want to get into it too
much, just because and thisisn't right either but you know
it's it's such a male dominatedgame, such a male dominated
industry, and there aredefinitely, definitely,
definitely inequities within theindustry, without a single
doubt, and I'm not even going tosay that there isn't, because
(46:27):
there is and it bothers me, itreally does.
I don't like to talk about itbecause it shouldn't be my
platform to speak on it, becauseI would be what I'm complaining
about myself, but there's a lotof women and there's a lot of
people who are not white maleswho would?
(46:48):
really appreciate a golf courseand really appreciate being out
there and I think would reallyfind a lot of inspiration and
really find a lot of what we allfind as golfers through our own
journeys out there.
But they're just, they're notmade to feel welcome and I
understand that, you knowthey're not barred from entry
and it's not like it used to bein a lot of ways.
But just because it's not thesame way it used to be, it
(47:09):
doesn't mean it's as good as itcould be.
Yeah, I think that that'sawesome and I think that's
really the tip of the cap isowed to you, because what you're
doing is, you know, reallyputting yourself out there on a
limb with really the onlybenefit of trying to help, you
know, promote a change at theclub.
(47:30):
I think that's awesome.
Man, like that's.
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, I think visually, just having visual
things have, like where you seea woman doing that, will help
and like just have exponentialthings happening because, like,
if you don't see yourself insome place, it's impossible to
know what that would look likeright, that's really.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean it's, I'm happy you'rewhere you're at, I'm happy that
you're doing your thing.
Um, I mean it's kind of funnybecause I've really racked my
head a little bit because I wasso taken aback.
You were, I believe.
I don't think I'm wrong.
I think you were the onlyperson who was a woman, who came
(48:16):
to the education.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Oh, I was.
I knew that.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Right, and I mean we had about 20, 25 people there.
So I mean, like, and you werethe only woman and I like I
noticed that and I made it apoint to talk to you.
But, besides the fact thatyou're a woman, like I mean you
stood out on your own merit,like you asked great questions,
you were very involved, like youwere, you wanted to learn, and
I think that that's so important, that you're just so committed
(48:44):
to getting better at what you do, that you're willing to not
only go and learn things, butyou're also willing to lead by
example.
I mean that's, that's reallycool, man, like it's.
It's.
It's not easy to put yourselfout there and I didn't
understand, like, where yourcourage came from to show up to
that, because I'm not sure, inthe same situation, I would have
(49:06):
to be perfectly honest.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Oh, I was so scared Like I was like blasting rap
music of like typing myself upI'm like I know I'm going to be
the only girl there.
This will be fine, we're justgoing to just sit and listen.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Yeah, and we even talked to you into going to
lunch and then you hung out fora while and we had a great day.
But you know, I now understandlike where that, where that
dedication and where thatcourage comes from man, like
it's just.
It's such a cool story, lisi.
I'm so I'm happy that we havepeople like you in the industry
and I'm fortunate that I waslucky enough to have you on the
(49:39):
podcast, because this has beenabsolutely great.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
This is like mind boggling.
I never thought this would everhappen for me.
Going to that on a whim yeah,we would.
You would like we making aconnection and like it's been
the best, seriously well, good,I'm happy.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
I want you to get what you want to get out of the
industry, because no matter whatyou take from it, you give way
more than you'll ever take.
So we're very uh, we're veryfortunate to have you, and I
mean it.
If you are a parent listeningto this, if you are a coach, if
you want to get better atcoaching, if you want to develop
(50:18):
the youngsters, if you want tohelp your children, I highly,
highly, highly recommend givingLisi a follow on social media.
You can reach out to her.
She's more than happy to dosome consulting and kind of give
you some ideas.
You know what you can do withyour kids to make sure that they
grow up to love the game anddon't grow up and feel like
spalding and they're just outthere with schmales and
(50:38):
everybody saying that's no goodfor anybody.
So we're going to avoid theSpalding syndrome and we're
going to get these kids lovinggolf.
But to do that you got to reachout to Lisi.
So, Lisi, how can people getahold of you?
Speaker 2 (50:51):
So my Instagram is Lisi Lee to the T.
Came up with that myself.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
It's really good, but you're gonna have to spell that
probably really good, butyou're gonna have to spell that
probably.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Oh yeah, because no one can understand my name.
So it's l-i-s-i-t-h-e,underscore t-e-e.
Basically wait, no, Icompletely butchered that you
just messed that up.
Yeah, try that again well, I'mon Tik TOK too.
I usually post more on Tik TOK.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
Okay, well see, I'm not on Tik TOK, so that's why I
don't know that, cause I'm tooold and I have too many gray
hairs my beard.
Well, I can't thank you enough.
It's your one day off.
They love you as much as we doand they keep you at the club as
much as possible.
So you had one day off and youwere nice enough to spend an
hour with us, which I certainlyappreciate, and I know that we
(51:52):
will more than certainly haveyou back on again in the future
and we look forward to hearingabout Sophia's development and
how she's getting better andbeating all the boys, about
Sophia's development and howshe's getting better and beating
all the boys.
And hopefully, by that point,there's about 10 to 15 young
girls standing out there withyou on the driving range, so
you're not out there by yourself.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yeah, that's my dream .
That'd be the best day of mylife.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Awesome.
Well, I think it's going tohappen, so hopefully it does,
and until then, we'll all bewatching.
So thanks again for tuning inand listening to the Measured
Golf Podcast.
We appreciate you guyssupporting this.
If you haven't already, pleasedownload and subscribe to the
podcast.
That's the easiest way you canhelp.
If you want to connect morewith us, you can find us on
Instagram by searching MeasuredGolf or you can find us on the
(52:37):
web by going to measuredgolfcom.
So thanks again for listeningand until next time, keep
grinding.
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