August 6, 2024 • 36 mins
A hilarious chat that goes from how neurodivergent brains can be productive, to what dust is actually made of, to burnout... to gaming. Leonie Dawson is a creative, multi-passionate, multi-award winning entrepreneur and author who has made squillions whilst only working 10 hours a week. And our crazy chat about ibis's, mice, nature and pushing up the daisies at the end just must be heard!
Website: leoniedawson.com
Instagram: @leonie_dawson
Follow Merilyn:
Instagram: @merilyn
Website: merilyn.com
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Merilyn (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to my show.
If you're new around here, comeon in.
There's plenty of seats up thefront.
Today's guest is the veryfabulous Leonie Dawson.
Leonie (00:11):
He just said to me, "Look, I didn't fall in love
with you because you'reautistic, I fell in love with
you because you're Leonie.
Like it's it's Leonie first,and then your brain type so much
further down." The level ofimportance here.
So that was really affirmingfor me.
Merilyn (00:27):
Leonie is the internationally best-selling
author of her My Brilliant Yearworkbooks.
You've probably seen themaround.
She's also a multi-passionate,highly creative award, multiple
awards-winning entrepreneur whohas generated, get this, over 14
million whilst only working 10hours a week.
Seriously.
(00:48):
Quite frankly, she's a legendand incredibly funny.
She's as colourful in person asshe is in her art.
We talk about neurodivergentbrains and productivity,
creativity and burnout.
And you just have to hear themouse story near the end.
On with the show.
Leonie (01:10):
Leonie, here you are.
Welcome to the show.
Oh, Merilyn, you absolute doll.
It's a joy to be here.
Merilyn (01:16):
I tell you what, I was getting ready for this
interview, and I'm thinking, Ireally want to do almost one of
those Kermit the Frogintroductions for you.
You know, like, Leonie.
We're just nuts.
I don't know why.
Leonie (01:31):
That's what I need, actually.
Merilyn (01:32):
It just felt like on this cold, wet, dull, dark
winter morning, we get togetherand warm things up.
So, Leonie, you are a bit of alegend in Australia.
Well, a bit of a legend in theworld.
Uh, for those of you whoprobably have never ever have
seen or heard you before, whoare you in a nutshell?
Leonie (01:54):
Oh, just like a big Bogan from North Queensland who
likes to swear a lot, but alsoreally likes hippie shit and
also really likes working outhow to have a really abundant
creative business.
And so in my exploration ofworking that out, I've been able
(02:18):
to um I've created the MyBrilliant Year Gold Workbooks,
which I made for myself like 15years ago.
And I thought, oh, these arereally cute.
Maybe I'll just pop them uponline and see if anyone else
wants to do it with me.
And then half a million peopledid.
And I was like, oh my god.
Um, and I've also got abusiness where I teach people
(02:39):
how to grow their beautifulbusinesses and um have about
5,000 members in my BrilliantBusiness Live Academy, and I've
brought in over $14 million inrevenue while working about 10
hours a week.
I feel like I've had a reallyblessed life, really.
Merilyn (02:56):
Did you make a conscious decision to only work
that many hours a week, or wasit a reaction to perhaps
overworking at the beginning?
Leonie (03:03):
Uh it's it was it's just like a life constraint for me.
So I built my business for manyyears part-time on the side
while I worked for theAustralian government in
Canberra.
And so that was really like,you know, just the little pieces
of time I could find outside ofmy full-time job.
And I didn't leave, I built mybusiness up on the side, but I
did I'm quite risk-adverse,despite my personality.
(03:26):
So I didn't leave that job umuntil it was um, you know,
getting close to six figures ayear.
And I was nine months pregnantwith my first daughter.
And so by the time I quit myjob, I had a baby, and I really,
really wanted to be as presentas I could with parenting.
And so 10 hours a week was justkind of the thing that had to
(03:48):
do around the corners of mylife.
And I also was the became thebreadwinner of our family at
that point because I didn't wantto just do parenting by myself.
I retired my husband from umthe Australian government at the
same time.
And um we went off and had somerad adventures all around
Australia and raised our kidstogether.
And I feel so lucky for thepriority we've put on family
(04:12):
time.
Merilyn (04:13):
Your planners are legendary, I mean, they're just
so um colourful, it feels likealmost the wrong.
It's just just like a just thewrong adjective.
That's an explosion of colourand art and design.
Do you find that like creativepeople?
I I work with a lot ofcreatives too, and they'll often
and I'm a creative too, and weoften have that resistance to
(04:37):
planning and time management andall the traditional
productivity stuff.
It kind of feels like not myyou know, not their bag.
What's your view on that?
Because having a planner andhaving those worksheets, there's
there's an order and there's arhythm to that.
What's your thoughts on thewhole creativity,
(04:58):
anti-productivity sort of vibe?
Leonie (05:02):
Yeah, like you know what, I created the planners
kind of in reaction to the factthat one, I knew that like kind
of setting goals was a reallyhelpful practice for me and
really helped me like be able tolike live more of my dreams.
And like 15 years ago, when Ilooked around at like the
planner market, there reallywasn't anything out there, like
(05:23):
anything that out that was outthere was like very black and
white and masculine and umcareers focused, where I wanted
something that was rainbows andunicorns and mermaids and
creative and incorporated areasof all my life so I could set
goals like spiritually and likehealth-wise and family
(05:44):
adventures and all that kind ofstuff.
So um I couldn't find what Iwanted.
So um I made it.
And you know, now there's Ithink there's a lot more
products like it on the market.
I know when I've talked to HayHouse, they the one of the
editors there was like, yeah,you kind of brought in that
whole industry of planners umand setting goals.
(06:06):
And that just that thrills me.
I love that we can create goalsand plan, but in a way that
really works with our creativeminds and feminine energy and
more intuitive ways of doing it.
Like it just thrills me.
Merilyn (06:21):
How do you blend that sort of masculine, feminine goal
setting, the energetic?
Leonie (06:27):
I think they can work together.
Like, I think they can like Ithink for me, the goals creates
like a good structure for me,and then I can fill it up with
all of the the different ways ofdoing it.
Like, I'm not ever going to besomebody who follows a routine,
like really.
Like I follow like a basic liferoutine, but when it comes to
(06:49):
my business, like I thrive onnovelty and excitement and going
with the flow of where myenergy is being called to.
And if that means just comingout with some random, stupid
idea and putting out in theworld, then I will follow that.
So, for example, like uh acouple of months ago, I read a
book called The House That JoyBuilt by Holly Ringland, and
(07:10):
it's an Australian book aboutcreativity and it was beautiful.
And I wrote a bunch of notes onit, and I was just gonna share
the notes online and I was like,you know what?
I feel like being a bit extra.
And so I spent three days kindof collaging it into this
massive 50-page e-zine.
Um, and it has zero strategiclike reason.
Like if I had like planned atthe beginning of the year, like,
(07:33):
oh, I'm gonna create a leadmagnet for my business or
whatever, I didn't even put itbehind an opt-in page because
I'm like, it's it's quite fromsomebody else's book, and I've
just like collaged it into thismassive like fan fiction dream.
Um so, but it's still one, it'sstill enormously valuable
because I got absolute joy outof creating it, and people loved
seeing it, and people were likereally excited by it.
(07:56):
So um I give myself, you know,guideposts of where I want to
head, but then an enormousamount of leeway in terms of how
I want to get there.
Merilyn (08:06):
I've just gotta say, are they your trophies on the
wall behind you?
Leonie (08:09):
They are.
Merilyn (08:10):
Tell us about it.
Leonie (08:13):
I am poshed.
I'm so poshed.
There's like so many trophies.
Merilyn (08:20):
I think you should take the books off and just center
them and just have the whole rowjust as an icon to your
trophies.
Leonie (08:28):
Well, this is true.
They're kind of like stackedbehind each other, but I don't
have enough room for all of thebooks.
I've got piles just everywhere.
So they look like book.
I donate just vast quantitiesof books to charity, to my kids'
school, all that kind of stuff.
And yet still, I cannot fit mybooks in my bookcase.
Merilyn (08:47):
Tell us about the awards.
Leonie (08:48):
I I think they're just a really beautiful thing to do if
you're in business.
Um, because when we're likesolo business owners, it's hard
to celebrate really ourachievements.
And it can feel a little bitindividual because obviously
we're solo businesses.
And so I think awards placescan provide like a really
(09:13):
beautiful ritual in terms ofcelebration and honoring.
Um, I personally really lovethe Osman Peneur Awards, um,
which are run here in Australia,and they have so many different
categories that you cannominate for.
Their conferences are alwaysbeautiful.
Like I just get so much valueof out of just going to their
(09:34):
conferences and connecting withother business owners, and also
because everyone's in suchdifferent industries that uh you
get such a wider perspective ofbusiness than just in our
little silos, you know.
So I I love that.
And I I um I don't go everysingle year because I'm a
hermit, but um every few yearsI'll nominate and then go to the
(09:56):
conference and hope to pick upsome trophies, and um, it's such
a blessing.
Merilyn (10:01):
Oh well, congratulations.
Oh Tabra.
Do you do you do you polishthem?
Leonie (10:06):
Uh no, occasionally I'll dust when I dust off you know
the other layer of film off mybooks.
So it's as much as I can.
Merilyn (10:14):
Yeah, don't books get that that layer in the top,
especially the hardcovers.
My gosh, and then you blow themand then you sneeze for the
next three hours.
Yeah, okay.
That's disgusting.
Leonie (10:26):
It's knowing that part of that layer is your skin, is
our skin.
Merilyn (10:29):
I know.
Foul.
I know.
Foul.
Delicious.
Let's get back to time.
Do you you talked about youdon't really have kind of strict
sort of rhythm?
Well, you have some some sortof rhythms.
Are there anything that youwould kind of put into your day
that would be on a some sort ofrhythm, or do you just take
(10:51):
every day letting your gut leadyou an inspiration?
Leonie (10:55):
Yeah, so on the life front, it's um, you know, it's a
a basic structure of the dayjust because I've got to get
kids to school and then we'llpick them up, that kind of
stuff.
Um, usually so wake up, getkids ready for school, um, take
them to school with my husband,then my husband and I will go do
errands or we'll go for a walk,um, whatever we're kind of
(11:18):
feeling like that day.
Um, or we'll come home and dosome, you know, a bit of tidy
up, a little bit of like playsome Nintendo Switch together,
hooray.
And then around me.
Merilyn (11:28):
That's awesome.
What's what's your favoritegame?
Leonie (11:31):
Oh god.
Okay, let me talk about gaming.
So at the moment, we reallylove playing Puyo Puyo Tetris
together, which is I thoughtit's a Japanese version of
Tetris, it's amazing.
Highly recommend.
Um, obviously, Mario Kart, alsoexcellent.
Merilyn (11:46):
L ove Mario Kart.
Leonie (11:47):
Uh, currently, we're very into Stardew Valley as
well, where you build your ownfarms, which is quite fun.
Merilyn (11:54):
Anyway, I interrupted your rhythm there.
We were talking about yourrhythm.
Leonie (11:58):
I was like, I will any opportunity to talk about
gaming.
I love it.
Did you know that gaming isactually like there's a whole
new area of therapy that comesum out of like the benefits of
gaming?
So, for example, if you gothrough, if you have a shock or
a trauma, like a little caraccident or whatever, if you
play Tetris within 24 hours ofthat, it reduces your risk of
(12:20):
developing post-traumatic stressdisorder.
Merilyn (12:22):
Wow.
Leonie (12:24):
Isn't that fascinating?
Because it's um basically, andthey think it's because of its
rapid eye movement, REM, and soit's like a kind of therapy.
Um, and it integrates, it doesthat pattern solving kind of
situation in your brain.
So uh, if you're going througha stressful situation, it
actually is a great thing to doa bit of gaming.
There you go.
(12:44):
You switch.
So there you go.
Yeah, so then I head off to myoffice for a couple of hours,
and what I do during that timeis just highly variable.
So um one day a week, liketoday, I have my meetings.
I don't have meetings any otherdays of the week.
So I'll do podcast interviews,I'll call my assistant and we'll
(13:06):
work through some taskstogether.
Um, on the other days of theweek.
Uh, one, I take Mondays offusually and just go to Pilates
and read a book at a cafe, andthat counts as work to me.
Um, so whatever.
I'm the boss, I can say it'swork.
Um and then I might do thingslike create new blog posts,
(13:28):
create new podcasts, create newprograms.
If I'm in like launch mode,then I'll be doing more like
marketing activities.
Yeah, I just feel lucky, likein terms of there's a fair bit
of leeway in terms of what I'mfeeling like doing and then what
I want to do.
And then sometimes I'll justdeep dive and just study pro
like courses and learn a newstrategy or skill or something.
Merilyn (13:52):
Where would you feel, if anything, time kind of
pressure?
Like, do you feel, do you havea sense of, oh my gosh, I'm
running out of time or I'mgetting older, or is that
because I'm getting the vibesthat that may not be you, but is
there perhaps any wisdom youcan share through what you've
(14:13):
learned through that?
Leonie (14:16):
I mean, I I think what the place where I do feel a bit
of time pressure is that myeldest is 14 and oh shit, like
I've only got four more years ofher being in school, and um,
you know, maybe four more yearsto go on like holidays together
before she's off having her ownadventures.
(14:37):
So that feels like a little bitof internal, like, oh, please
just like soak in this as muchas possible.
But then on another front, likeon a daily basis, you just get
so like overstimulated with likeeverything that goes on.
You're like, how can I evenenjoy this?
Like, you know, it's just thenext thing to do on the list.
Um, but I do try and live lifeat a gentler pace, um,
(15:04):
particularly because I'mautistic.
And so if I jam-pack my daysand have too many things booked
in my calendars, then my brainjust feels like it's on fire.
So I have to have like a veryregulated kind of life and have
stop work time so I don't workafter a certain point in the
(15:27):
day, I don't work on weekendsever.
Um and um I know there's aninclination in me just to keep
on working if I didn't havethose boundaries in place.
But I know from the cold hardwisdom of burnout, just don't do
that.
When I feel that adrenal energypopping up, I'm like, no, chill
(15:50):
out down because if I push mynervous system over, then it
will just be anxiety and doomcentral, and it's not going to
be helpful to anyone.
Merilyn (15:58):
You were late diagnosed with neurodivergent, weren't
you?
What made you go get say gettested?
Was there was just a whim, justa gut feeling?
And how how did you react tothat?
I know you you talked aboutthis before, but I'm just
fascinated.
Leonie (16:16):
Yeah.
It's it's really funny.
So I didn't, I didn't actuallyknow that I was.
It was just at a certain point,I had three really good friends
over the space of a year bediagnosed um as autistic.
And internally I was like, Idon't get it.
These are the coolest peoplethat I know.
(16:37):
What is this?
What does this even mean?
Like, and I think there waslike a tiny amount of judgment
there, like, oh, is it justthis?
I don't know, like new, it wasobviously something I didn't
understand.
And so I was like, okay, I needto be a better friend and I
need to understand more how theywork.
And also because um, a coupleof them had said that it looks
(17:01):
different for females.
So I knew to look up a femalechecklist for autism.
So I Googled female checklistfor autism, and I remember
reading it, you know, and I'ddone it purely with the
intention of just being able tounderstand my friends more and
how to be a better friend tothem.
And I remember reading thatlist and I knew instantly, I
knew it was me, and that it waslike all of the secrets of my
(17:26):
soul, all of my childhood, everydeep internal secret that I
thought was incredibly personalto only me.
Um, it was no longer likepersonal quirks.
It was, oh, this is a thing.
This is how your brain isbuilt.
Like the thing that I thoughtit was adorable.
I didn't really have friendsuntil I was like grade five
(17:48):
because I thought all of myanimals were my best friends.
Like, and I just thought thatwas really cute of me.
And it is very cute of me.
It is true, but it's anautistic thing, um, especially
for being my artist.
Merilyn (18:01):
Did that change a little sort of identity thing?
Like, was there a bit of anidea?
Leonie (18:05):
Completely there.
Wow, completely, because then Iwas like, what is me and what
is great?
Merilyn (18:12):
Did you feel not special anymore?
Leonie (18:14):
Or a little bit.
I'm like, am I just a fuckingneurotype?
Like, this is wild.
And I'm grateful
Merilyn (18:22):
Leonie, you're still incredibly special.
Leonie (18:26):
Oh, thank you.
Merilyn (18:27):
It just I for me when I found that out, it just added
another flavor to you.
Leonie (18:33):
Okay, thank you.
Merilyn (18:34):
That's anyway.
I interrupt I'm really on theedge of my seat here.
Leonie (18:39):
Oh fuck, you sweet thing.
I just I'm so grateful becauseI it really did throw me into a
bit of a spin.
Like, what is me?
What is this?
Also, how the fuck did I getto, you know, the 30s till I
find this out?
And also, um it's even morehilarious because uh growing up,
we were in a disabilitycommunity.
My eldest brother had cerebralpalsy, my mum was a disability
(19:01):
support worker, my two sisterswent on to become disability
support workers.
Our whole lake, we had a farm,and so my mom's clients were
constantly coming to the farm.
And so I was hanging out withyou know, lots of members of the
disability community, includingpeople with autism, um, from a
really young age.
And my mum always used to say,Oh, it's so funny.
(19:22):
You have such a specialconnection with the autistic
clients.
Um, like you could just geteach other, isn't that funny?
Isn't that funny?
But of course, like they wereall boys as well, you know.
Like there was a lack ofawareness around how it appears
(19:43):
in girls.
And also because I didn'tstruggle in school, I liked
academics.
I was like quite happyinternally, um, just being in
nature and being with my pets.
So there didn't seem to be likethat outward struggle that boys
with ADHD or um you know, boyswith um autism that requires
(20:07):
like higher support needs than Ido would appear.
So that was yeah, it was sofunny.
And I remember like telling myhusband, like, oh god, I think
I'm autistic.
And he was like, Oh, okay.
Um, and he's like, you know, Iwas starting to over-identify
with it.
And he just said to me, Look, Ididn't fall in love with you
(20:29):
because you're autistic, I fellin love with you because you're
Leonie, like it's it's Leoniefirst, and then your brain type
so much further down the levelof importance here.
So that was really affirmingfor me.
Merilyn (20:43):
I know you've you've run some things yourself, some
workshops on um theneurodivergent productivity.
What would you say, you know,what's some something you've got
some wisdom out of that?
Maybe a couple of points thatyou could share with anyone who
might be listening who like it,like alarm bells are going, oh
I'm gonna ding ding-ding.
(21:04):
What's the essence of that foryou?
And how is it perhaps differentto regular?
Leonie (21:08):
It's recognizing that like how productivity works for
neurotypical people isn'tnecessarily what's going to work
for you.
And there's no gold standardfor neurotypes, uh, sorry,
neurodivergence, uh, in terms ofproductivity or therapy, or
even like cognitive behavioraltherapy, for example, is gold
(21:28):
standard for neurotypicalpeople.
However, if you areneurodivergent, it actually can
worsen your symptoms.
And that is horrifying and veryscary to think about.
Um, because I went to CBTthinking this is gold standard,
and then was like, why do I feelso much worse?
Uh and it because it causesextra rumination.
(21:49):
So realizing that we are anunderstudied bunch and that we
can craft whatever the fuckworks for us in terms of
therapy, in terms ofproductivity, in terms of our
life.
And recognizing that there'sgoing to be a whole bunch of
things that just don't work forus.
And that's okay.
And so what we do is likeinstead play and experiment and
(22:11):
see what's going to work reallywell for us.
So for me, I don't rely on mymemory to complete things.
So I have alarms set foreverything, including like every
call.
I write out my calendar.
Maybe I'm on there.
If you're like me, then you'reprobably alarm little spicy
(22:34):
babes.
All the best people are.
Yeah, so like, and then I'llwrite out my calendar three
times and it's displayed inthree different areas in our
house at the start of everyweek.
And that's a reminder in mycalendar to like write out the
calendar.
And then I also like everysingle part of my business,
(22:58):
because I only hireneurodivergent people now.
I know that I driveneurotypical people insane at
work and they drive me insane.
So it's best for me to workwith neurodivergent people.
And they're brilliant andthey're smart and they like so
they've just got such goodcommunication skills.
And I think that's hilariousbecause so often we hear
neurodivergent people are good.
(23:18):
They're actually so muchbetter.
They're like levels ofcompassion and empathy, and it's
beyond it's the best I've everexperienced in a work
environment.
So I recognize that all of usas a team, we don't have great
short-term memory or long-termmemory.
(23:38):
Um, we're brilliant, but umthat's just not our skill.
And so everything.
Oh, yeah, that also canprobably make that shit.
It's like when you have a baby.
It's like when you have a babyand you think, what happened?
Yeah, how much my memory go.
(23:59):
And I I remember one of myolder friends, Deb, said to me,
Oh, it goes out with theplacenta.
Your memory loss is like assoon as you birth out the
placenta, you're fucked.
That's it.
It doesn't come back either,babes.
And I was like, It's theimportant parts though, right?
It's important.
Um, yeah, so we just like setup standards.
Merilyn (24:21):
Yeah, we have these standards of like reproductive,
and we can drive ourselves crazybecause we don't measure up to
that.
But there's so many things thatjust complicate that or or make
it more beautiful, however youwant to see it.
Leonie (24:37):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And also recognizing that, likeum, you know, at least 30% of
entrepreneurs have ADHD.
If you are um a firefighter ora paramedic, you're actually
genetically better off if you'vegot ADHD, your brain works
better in a crisis situation.
Um right.
(24:59):
Whoa.
Fascinating.
In terms of like this, the CEOtop 500 companies, 60 to 70
percent of them show displays of70 percent show um just show
symptoms of ADHD if they're notalready diagnosed.
Um also, when they look attribes in Africa that are still
(25:20):
like nomadic and livingsubsistence lives, the ones that
have higher amounts of ADHDgenetics are better fed.
So they are better at huntingand better at gathering.
So there is an enormous amountof benefits attached to a
neurodivergent brain.
If you look at all theinventors in the world, all the
entrepreneurs, if you look atentertainers, like if you list a
(25:43):
whole bunch of celebrities, thevast majority of them are
actually going to beneurodivergent, whether it's
ADHD, autism, dyslexia, um, andso like and so many more.
It's completely fascinating.
I've done like case studies onlike how many are, and it is
incredible.
Merilyn (25:59):
Have you also read that there's a piece that I wish I'd
kept the the link to it, but itwas saying that even the human
body, the human humanity isevolving into uh
neurodivergence, like the futurehuman will be that will be
normal and that we're breedingout.
(26:20):
Interesting.
So, what would you be?
Leonie (26:24):
Because it's an evolutionary advantage to be a
neurodivergent.
Merilyn (26:28):
That's probably why.
Leonie (26:30):
Darwin loves us, but that's because Darwin was
autistic.
Merilyn (26:35):
So, what would be one tip that you could give to
people who also know they'reneurodivergent already, to say,
okay, I just I just want to getthis time thing, just getting
things done just up a notch.
What would you say?
What was the one thing that youwould you would give them?
Leonie (26:52):
I don't know if I could give them a one thing.
One, obviously, try medicationto see if it's helpful.
For me, it's not life-changingin terms of my focus, but it's
life-changing is in terms oflike just the general overwhelm
that I experience from a dailybasis.
Two is structuring your workweek in a way that's going to
(27:13):
work for you and not againstyou.
Um, so noting where you'regoing to be feeling burnt out,
seeing where you can build in umextra hours, batching your
interviews so that, and like,you know, calls and things like
that, reducing your externalaccess to the world, like the
(27:34):
internet, the email, that kindof stuff, to try and focus more
and really embrace yourhyperfixations.
So when I'm like, I've got anidea, my team are just like,
okay, we'll see you when youcome back out.
Because they know that, like,if I'm like wanting to like go
dive deep into studyingsomething or creating something,
that's where the magic is.
And so I've got to leave roomin my life for that to happen.
Merilyn (27:58):
You mentioned before about burnout.
What's your where are you atwith that now?
Share a bit on that.
Leonie (28:08):
For me, it's uh not something that I really
experience just because theamount of like experience
anymore.
I have experience.
That's what I thought freakingbrutal.
Um, but because I've learnedfrom each like each time, it's
sort of like the burnout trainis coming for you.
And um, you know, the first fewtimes it hits, it hits hard,
(28:33):
and it's a longer recovery time.
But I feel like I get better athearing the distant sound of
the choo-choo coming for me, andcan either like break the train
so it hits less or just get offthe train track so it doesn't
hit.
So uh things like obviously theno work times, um, just
(28:55):
monitoring.
So I've got a good supportsystem.
So my husband, my twoassistants, they are um both
really good at noticing if I'mstarting to overdo things and
will pull me up and be like,hey, I don't want you to burn
out if you're taking on too manyprojects.
Um, if I like I'll also if I'mstarting to feel that anxiety
(29:18):
level raise or that kind ofdoldrums, I'll talk to them
about it and we'll we'llstrategize about how to reduce
my workload again or clear somethings off my plate so I feel
less overwhelmed.
So um it's definitely possibleto live a burnout free life,
basically, but it's justsomething that requires fairly
(29:41):
constant monitoring and justhaving some good systems in
place.
Merilyn (29:47):
Ah Leonie, this has been amazing.
Is there anything else you'dpublish?
Leonie (29:52):
I love you, Merilyn.
Let's hang out.
Merilyn (29:54):
Love you, let's do it.
Leonie (29:57):
You're already in Mudgy.
I'm gonna be living in Pampo.
So you could just save part ofthe land, dog.
Merilyn (30:02):
Drive by, we could have a coffee.
Leonie (30:04):
Yeah, nice.
You I mean, you look so cozywith your little fire.
I need a fire.
Merilyn (30:09):
I know, I've got my fire in there, and um, yeah,
there were little mice runningaround there yesterday.
So I'm like, they've come outof the cold.
Leonie (30:17):
So I'm like, oh my goodness, they want to be cozy
too.
Merilyn (30:20):
Yeah.
Anything else you want to sharebefore we wrap up?
Leonie (30:25):
Yeah, I just want to share this story because it's
cute.
I remember like at a certainpoint, we were living in this
one-bedroom old 100-year-oldhouse with my husband and our
little newborn baby, and I stillneeded to get work done and I
didn't have a place to work.
And so I would just go sit inthe park or sit in the library,
(30:47):
or I'd go sit up a tree in apark because they have these
massive fig trees.
Um, and then I ran into someissues with that because I got
stuck up the tree because therewas a snake in it, um, and it
was further down the tree thanme.
And I love that people will go,Oh, I remember back in the day
when you used to make videos inthe tree, because that's where I
used to work.
(31:07):
Um and so I know, just, youknow, I just needed to get stuff
done, and that's where I endedup.
Um, and then I was like, oh,you know what?
I probably need like a house,like a place to go when it's
raining or whatever.
So I ended up hiring thislittle $50 a week office, and it
felt like a major upgrade.
And it was just a very shittyoffice at the back of a real
(31:29):
estate place, but it came with afree pet mouse.
They didn't know that.
But I was thrilled.
This mouse loved me so muchthat I would be typing on my
little laptop and it would comeand it'd sit on my fingers while
I was typing.
And it was just it wasfriendly, it was so friendly, it
was the sweetest little thing.
He loved me.
Merilyn (31:50):
Oh, I know I feel guilty.
Leonie (31:52):
I feel so lucky.
Merilyn (31:54):
My traps out there.
I feel I feel guilty everytime.
Leonie (31:58):
That's running over your hands.
Merilyn (32:00):
I know.
Well, I've got kangaroos, I'vegot wallabies, so I've got a at
the moment they're pooing allover the lawn, so I've got to
really have, you know, wear mygum boots out there.
I've got a feral cat that livesunder the house as well.
Leonie (32:12):
Amazing.
Merilyn (32:13):
There's a there's an amazing hare.
I've never seen a hare in reallife, only in like in Beatrix
Potter books, you know, with thereally long ears and there's a
wombat.
There's a wombat hole about 20meters away, and there's fresh
digging.
So I'm gonna have to go out andcamp it out there with the with
the um torch and wait for it.
Leonie (32:32):
You are living the frontier life.
Merilyn (32:34):
I know, I know.
Leonie (32:36):
It's so weird when you see a hare for the first time,
right?
You're like, oh, it's a rabbit.
Oh no, it's no, it's not.
Merilyn (32:42):
They're big, I know, and they're like, oh my gosh, it
feels like it's jumped out of astorybook.
And it it really is reallydone.
Yeah, yeah.
Leonie (32:51):
It's extraordinary.
Merilyn (32:52):
It has nothing to do with our podcast interview, but
gosh, it's fun.
Leonie (32:56):
It's the important things, honestly.
Merilyn (32:58):
Like, I love this.
Oh, I love this.
Leonie (33:01):
I saw I saw Ibises in a V formation fly overhead this
morning on our walk, and it wasso beautiful, like all the way
overhead.
But then we came back 30minutes later, and that was
still in that V formation flyingoverhead.
And obviously, Gary's at thefront of the crop today, and he
is shit at directions.
And so he's just taking them ona merry little trip.
(33:21):
And you're gonna hear Margedown the back going, Yes!
Merilyn (33:24):
Go the wrong direction.
I'm like, isn't it a bit lateto be flying north for the for
the winter?
Leonie (33:31):
That's right, that's right, and so yeah, my little
animal friends, they're stillwith me, obviously, today.
I'm like a Disney princess.
Merilyn (33:44):
Oh, I love it.
I look, I adore getting up andseeing because there's a bunch,
there's about 25 kangaroos thatlive on the property.
They move, move locations.
And if I'm very quiet, I'll seethem when I'm do my walk.
But if you get up in themorning, they're out by the dam,
you know, having box-ups andjumping around.
And oh, it's just I don't getmuch work done because I'm just
(34:08):
sitting out watching the life.
The gosh, my nervous system isreally loving me at the right
minute right now.
Leonie (34:16):
And also, who else is going to watch them if you
aren't?
You know, like someone needs tojust...
Merilyn (34:26):
Add those as core memories to my life.
Leonie (34:29):
Exactly.
Exactly.
I remember seeing this tree inCanberra, and it was like it had
turned bright yellow, it was inour backyard, and then the
light went behind it likebecause it was like sunset and
it was foggy, and the wholething lit up like golden, like
it just the most incrediblething.
And I thought, thank god I'mhere to see this.
Who else would just marvel atit?
(34:52):
You know, we're so lucky, we'reso lucky.
Merilyn (34:56):
We are, we are, and look, that is something.
Speaking of time, I appreciateso much more now than I did 40
years ago.
It's just as you get older, I'mI'm just those moments are just
so important.
So, Leonie, a hundred years'time, you're dead and gone.
What would you like to beremembered for?
Leonie (35:16):
Nothing.
It's fine, it doesn't matter.
Like, honestly, like if I canjust provide a little bit of
fodder for a little bit of aflower or a bee or something, or
just a bit of mineral for thesoil, fucking great.
What a treat.
What a blessing.
I don't need to be room forshit.
I just want to be a part of it.
Merilyn (35:40):
The circle of life.
Leonie (35:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I want to be like a reallyfucking great ancestor and for
all of humanity, really.
And I just want to be like thislittle like cheerleader going,
fuck yeah, you can do this.
I love you so much.
You are the best.
Like, I believe in you.
I want to be that kind ofghost.
Do you know what I mean?
Merilyn (36:05):
Oh, what a great place to end.
Thank you.
This has been such a treat,such joy to talk to you.
Thank you.
I can't wait to getthis... share it with the
planet.
Leonie (36:19):
Oh, let's do it.
Let's let's all push up flowerstogether in the most beautiful
of ways.
Hello and welcome back to my show.
If you're new around here, comeon in.
There's plenty of seats up thefront.
Today's guest is the veryfabulous Leonie Dawson.
Leonie (00:11):
He just said to me, "Look, I didn't fall in love
with you because you'reautistic, I fell in love with
you because you're Leonie.
Like it's it's Leonie first,and then your brain type so much
further down." The level ofimportance here.
So that was really affirmingfor me.
Merilyn (00:27):
Leonie is the internationally best-selling
author of her My Brilliant Yearworkbooks.
You've probably seen themaround.
She's also a multi-passionate,highly creative award, multiple
awards-winning entrepreneur whohas generated, get this, over 14
million whilst only working 10hours a week.
Seriously.
(00:48):
Quite frankly, she's a legendand incredibly funny.
She's as colourful in person asshe is in her art.
We talk about neurodivergentbrains and productivity,
creativity and burnout.
And you just have to hear themouse story near the end.
On with the show.
Leonie (01:10):
Leonie, here you are.
Welcome to the show.
Oh, Merilyn, you absolute doll.
It's a joy to be here.
Merilyn (01:16):
I tell you what, I was getting ready for this
interview, and I'm thinking, Ireally want to do almost one of
those Kermit the Frogintroductions for you.
You know, like, Leonie.
We're just nuts.
I don't know why.
Leonie (01:31):
That's what I need, actually.
Merilyn (01:32):
It just felt like on this cold, wet, dull, dark
winter morning, we get togetherand warm things up.
So, Leonie, you are a bit of alegend in Australia.
Well, a bit of a legend in theworld.
Uh, for those of you whoprobably have never ever have
seen or heard you before, whoare you in a nutshell?
Leonie (01:54):
Oh, just like a big Bogan from North Queensland who
likes to swear a lot, but alsoreally likes hippie shit and
also really likes working outhow to have a really abundant
creative business.
And so in my exploration ofworking that out, I've been able
(02:18):
to um I've created the MyBrilliant Year Gold Workbooks,
which I made for myself like 15years ago.
And I thought, oh, these arereally cute.
Maybe I'll just pop them uponline and see if anyone else
wants to do it with me.
And then half a million peopledid.
And I was like, oh my god.
Um, and I've also got abusiness where I teach people
(02:39):
how to grow their beautifulbusinesses and um have about
5,000 members in my BrilliantBusiness Live Academy, and I've
brought in over $14 million inrevenue while working about 10
hours a week.
I feel like I've had a reallyblessed life, really.
Merilyn (02:56):
Did you make a conscious decision to only work
that many hours a week, or wasit a reaction to perhaps
overworking at the beginning?
Leonie (03:03):
Uh it's it was it's just like a life constraint for me.
So I built my business for manyyears part-time on the side
while I worked for theAustralian government in
Canberra.
And so that was really like,you know, just the little pieces
of time I could find outside ofmy full-time job.
And I didn't leave, I built mybusiness up on the side, but I
did I'm quite risk-adverse,despite my personality.
(03:26):
So I didn't leave that job umuntil it was um, you know,
getting close to six figures ayear.
And I was nine months pregnantwith my first daughter.
And so by the time I quit myjob, I had a baby, and I really,
really wanted to be as presentas I could with parenting.
And so 10 hours a week was justkind of the thing that had to
(03:48):
do around the corners of mylife.
And I also was the became thebreadwinner of our family at
that point because I didn't wantto just do parenting by myself.
I retired my husband from umthe Australian government at the
same time.
And um we went off and had somerad adventures all around
Australia and raised our kidstogether.
And I feel so lucky for thepriority we've put on family
(04:12):
time.
Merilyn (04:13):
Your planners are legendary, I mean, they're just
so um colourful, it feels likealmost the wrong.
It's just just like a just thewrong adjective.
That's an explosion of colourand art and design.
Do you find that like creativepeople?
I I work with a lot ofcreatives too, and they'll often
and I'm a creative too, and weoften have that resistance to
(04:37):
planning and time management andall the traditional
productivity stuff.
It kind of feels like not myyou know, not their bag.
What's your view on that?
Because having a planner andhaving those worksheets, there's
there's an order and there's arhythm to that.
What's your thoughts on thewhole creativity,
(04:58):
anti-productivity sort of vibe?
Leonie (05:02):
Yeah, like you know what, I created the planners
kind of in reaction to the factthat one, I knew that like kind
of setting goals was a reallyhelpful practice for me and
really helped me like be able tolike live more of my dreams.
And like 15 years ago, when Ilooked around at like the
planner market, there reallywasn't anything out there, like
(05:23):
anything that out that was outthere was like very black and
white and masculine and umcareers focused, where I wanted
something that was rainbows andunicorns and mermaids and
creative and incorporated areasof all my life so I could set
goals like spiritually and likehealth-wise and family
(05:44):
adventures and all that kind ofstuff.
So um I couldn't find what Iwanted.
So um I made it.
And you know, now there's Ithink there's a lot more
products like it on the market.
I know when I've talked to HayHouse, they the one of the
editors there was like, yeah,you kind of brought in that
whole industry of planners umand setting goals.
(06:06):
And that just that thrills me.
I love that we can create goalsand plan, but in a way that
really works with our creativeminds and feminine energy and
more intuitive ways of doing it.
Like it just thrills me.
Merilyn (06:21):
How do you blend that sort of masculine, feminine goal
setting, the energetic?
Leonie (06:27):
I think they can work together.
Like, I think they can like Ithink for me, the goals creates
like a good structure for me,and then I can fill it up with
all of the the different ways ofdoing it.
Like, I'm not ever going to besomebody who follows a routine,
like really.
Like I follow like a basic liferoutine, but when it comes to
(06:49):
my business, like I thrive onnovelty and excitement and going
with the flow of where myenergy is being called to.
And if that means just comingout with some random, stupid
idea and putting out in theworld, then I will follow that.
So, for example, like uh acouple of months ago, I read a
book called The House That JoyBuilt by Holly Ringland, and
(07:10):
it's an Australian book aboutcreativity and it was beautiful.
And I wrote a bunch of notes onit, and I was just gonna share
the notes online and I was like,you know what?
I feel like being a bit extra.
And so I spent three days kindof collaging it into this
massive 50-page e-zine.
Um, and it has zero strategiclike reason.
Like if I had like planned atthe beginning of the year, like,
(07:33):
oh, I'm gonna create a leadmagnet for my business or
whatever, I didn't even put itbehind an opt-in page because
I'm like, it's it's quite fromsomebody else's book, and I've
just like collaged it into thismassive like fan fiction dream.
Um so, but it's still one, it'sstill enormously valuable
because I got absolute joy outof creating it, and people loved
seeing it, and people were likereally excited by it.
(07:56):
So um I give myself, you know,guideposts of where I want to
head, but then an enormousamount of leeway in terms of how
I want to get there.
Merilyn (08:06):
I've just gotta say, are they your trophies on the
wall behind you?
Leonie (08:09):
They are.
Merilyn (08:10):
Tell us about it.
Leonie (08:13):
I am poshed.
I'm so poshed.
There's like so many trophies.
Merilyn (08:20):
I think you should take the books off and just center
them and just have the whole rowjust as an icon to your
trophies.
Leonie (08:28):
Well, this is true.
They're kind of like stackedbehind each other, but I don't
have enough room for all of thebooks.
I've got piles just everywhere.
So they look like book.
I donate just vast quantitiesof books to charity, to my kids'
school, all that kind of stuff.
And yet still, I cannot fit mybooks in my bookcase.
Merilyn (08:47):
Tell us about the awards.
Leonie (08:48):
I I think they're just a really beautiful thing to do if
you're in business.
Um, because when we're likesolo business owners, it's hard
to celebrate really ourachievements.
And it can feel a little bitindividual because obviously
we're solo businesses.
And so I think awards placescan provide like a really
(09:13):
beautiful ritual in terms ofcelebration and honoring.
Um, I personally really lovethe Osman Peneur Awards, um,
which are run here in Australia,and they have so many different
categories that you cannominate for.
Their conferences are alwaysbeautiful.
Like I just get so much valueof out of just going to their
(09:34):
conferences and connecting withother business owners, and also
because everyone's in suchdifferent industries that uh you
get such a wider perspective ofbusiness than just in our
little silos, you know.
So I I love that.
And I I um I don't go everysingle year because I'm a
hermit, but um every few yearsI'll nominate and then go to the
(09:56):
conference and hope to pick upsome trophies, and um, it's such
a blessing.
Merilyn (10:01):
Oh well, congratulations.
Oh Tabra.
Do you do you do you polishthem?
Leonie (10:06):
Uh no, occasionally I'll dust when I dust off you know
the other layer of film off mybooks.
So it's as much as I can.
Merilyn (10:14):
Yeah, don't books get that that layer in the top,
especially the hardcovers.
My gosh, and then you blow themand then you sneeze for the
next three hours.
Yeah, okay.
That's disgusting.
Leonie (10:26):
It's knowing that part of that layer is your skin, is
our skin.
Merilyn (10:29):
I know.
Foul.
I know.
Foul.
Delicious.
Let's get back to time.
Do you you talked about youdon't really have kind of strict
sort of rhythm?
Well, you have some some sortof rhythms.
Are there anything that youwould kind of put into your day
that would be on a some sort ofrhythm, or do you just take
(10:51):
every day letting your gut leadyou an inspiration?
Leonie (10:55):
Yeah, so on the life front, it's um, you know, it's a
a basic structure of the dayjust because I've got to get
kids to school and then we'llpick them up, that kind of
stuff.
Um, usually so wake up, getkids ready for school, um, take
them to school with my husband,then my husband and I will go do
errands or we'll go for a walk,um, whatever we're kind of
(11:18):
feeling like that day.
Um, or we'll come home and dosome, you know, a bit of tidy
up, a little bit of like playsome Nintendo Switch together,
hooray.
And then around me.
Merilyn (11:28):
That's awesome.
What's what's your favoritegame?
Leonie (11:31):
Oh god.
Okay, let me talk about gaming.
So at the moment, we reallylove playing Puyo Puyo Tetris
together, which is I thoughtit's a Japanese version of
Tetris, it's amazing.
Highly recommend.
Um, obviously, Mario Kart, alsoexcellent.
Merilyn (11:46):
L ove Mario Kart.
Leonie (11:47):
Uh, currently, we're very into Stardew Valley as
well, where you build your ownfarms, which is quite fun.
Merilyn (11:54):
Anyway, I interrupted your rhythm there.
We were talking about yourrhythm.
Leonie (11:58):
I was like, I will any opportunity to talk about
gaming.
I love it.
Did you know that gaming isactually like there's a whole
new area of therapy that comesum out of like the benefits of
gaming?
So, for example, if you gothrough, if you have a shock or
a trauma, like a little caraccident or whatever, if you
play Tetris within 24 hours ofthat, it reduces your risk of
(12:20):
developing post-traumatic stressdisorder.
Merilyn (12:22):
Wow.
Leonie (12:24):
Isn't that fascinating?
Because it's um basically, andthey think it's because of its
rapid eye movement, REM, and soit's like a kind of therapy.
Um, and it integrates, it doesthat pattern solving kind of
situation in your brain.
So uh, if you're going througha stressful situation, it
actually is a great thing to doa bit of gaming.
There you go.
(12:44):
You switch.
So there you go.
Yeah, so then I head off to myoffice for a couple of hours,
and what I do during that timeis just highly variable.
So um one day a week, liketoday, I have my meetings.
I don't have meetings any otherdays of the week.
So I'll do podcast interviews,I'll call my assistant and we'll
(13:06):
work through some taskstogether.
Um, on the other days of theweek.
Uh, one, I take Mondays offusually and just go to Pilates
and read a book at a cafe, andthat counts as work to me.
Um, so whatever.
I'm the boss, I can say it'swork.
Um and then I might do thingslike create new blog posts,
(13:28):
create new podcasts, create newprograms.
If I'm in like launch mode,then I'll be doing more like
marketing activities.
Yeah, I just feel lucky, likein terms of there's a fair bit
of leeway in terms of what I'mfeeling like doing and then what
I want to do.
And then sometimes I'll justdeep dive and just study pro
like courses and learn a newstrategy or skill or something.
Merilyn (13:52):
Where would you feel, if anything, time kind of
pressure?
Like, do you feel, do you havea sense of, oh my gosh, I'm
running out of time or I'mgetting older, or is that
because I'm getting the vibesthat that may not be you, but is
there perhaps any wisdom youcan share through what you've
(14:13):
learned through that?
Leonie (14:16):
I mean, I I think what the place where I do feel a bit
of time pressure is that myeldest is 14 and oh shit, like
I've only got four more years ofher being in school, and um,
you know, maybe four more yearsto go on like holidays together
before she's off having her ownadventures.
(14:37):
So that feels like a little bitof internal, like, oh, please
just like soak in this as muchas possible.
But then on another front, likeon a daily basis, you just get
so like overstimulated with likeeverything that goes on.
You're like, how can I evenenjoy this?
Like, you know, it's just thenext thing to do on the list.
Um, but I do try and live lifeat a gentler pace, um,
(15:04):
particularly because I'mautistic.
And so if I jam-pack my daysand have too many things booked
in my calendars, then my brainjust feels like it's on fire.
So I have to have like a veryregulated kind of life and have
stop work time so I don't workafter a certain point in the
(15:27):
day, I don't work on weekendsever.
Um and um I know there's aninclination in me just to keep
on working if I didn't havethose boundaries in place.
But I know from the cold hardwisdom of burnout, just don't do
that.
When I feel that adrenal energypopping up, I'm like, no, chill
(15:50):
out down because if I push mynervous system over, then it
will just be anxiety and doomcentral, and it's not going to
be helpful to anyone.
Merilyn (15:58):
You were late diagnosed with neurodivergent, weren't
you?
What made you go get say gettested?
Was there was just a whim, justa gut feeling?
And how how did you react tothat?
I know you you talked aboutthis before, but I'm just
fascinated.
Leonie (16:16):
Yeah.
It's it's really funny.
So I didn't, I didn't actuallyknow that I was.
It was just at a certain point,I had three really good friends
over the space of a year bediagnosed um as autistic.
And internally I was like, Idon't get it.
These are the coolest peoplethat I know.
(16:37):
What is this?
What does this even mean?
Like, and I think there waslike a tiny amount of judgment
there, like, oh, is it justthis?
I don't know, like new, it wasobviously something I didn't
understand.
And so I was like, okay, I needto be a better friend and I
need to understand more how theywork.
And also because um, a coupleof them had said that it looks
(17:01):
different for females.
So I knew to look up a femalechecklist for autism.
So I Googled female checklistfor autism, and I remember
reading it, you know, and I'ddone it purely with the
intention of just being able tounderstand my friends more and
how to be a better friend tothem.
And I remember reading thatlist and I knew instantly, I
knew it was me, and that it waslike all of the secrets of my
(17:26):
soul, all of my childhood, everydeep internal secret that I
thought was incredibly personalto only me.
Um, it was no longer likepersonal quirks.
It was, oh, this is a thing.
This is how your brain isbuilt.
Like the thing that I thoughtit was adorable.
I didn't really have friendsuntil I was like grade five
(17:48):
because I thought all of myanimals were my best friends.
Like, and I just thought thatwas really cute of me.
And it is very cute of me.
It is true, but it's anautistic thing, um, especially
for being my artist.
Merilyn (18:01):
Did that change a little sort of identity thing?
Like, was there a bit of anidea?
Leonie (18:05):
Completely there.
Wow, completely, because then Iwas like, what is me and what
is great?
Merilyn (18:12):
Did you feel not special anymore?
Leonie (18:14):
Or a little bit.
I'm like, am I just a fuckingneurotype?
Like, this is wild.
And I'm grateful
Merilyn (18:22):
Leonie, you're still incredibly special.
Leonie (18:26):
Oh, thank you.
Merilyn (18:27):
It just I for me when I found that out, it just added
another flavor to you.
Leonie (18:33):
Okay, thank you.
Merilyn (18:34):
That's anyway.
I interrupt I'm really on theedge of my seat here.
Leonie (18:39):
Oh fuck, you sweet thing.
I just I'm so grateful becauseI it really did throw me into a
bit of a spin.
Like, what is me?
What is this?
Also, how the fuck did I getto, you know, the 30s till I
find this out?
And also, um it's even morehilarious because uh growing up,
we were in a disabilitycommunity.
My eldest brother had cerebralpalsy, my mum was a disability
(19:01):
support worker, my two sisterswent on to become disability
support workers.
Our whole lake, we had a farm,and so my mom's clients were
constantly coming to the farm.
And so I was hanging out withyou know, lots of members of the
disability community, includingpeople with autism, um, from a
really young age.
And my mum always used to say,Oh, it's so funny.
(19:22):
You have such a specialconnection with the autistic
clients.
Um, like you could just geteach other, isn't that funny?
Isn't that funny?
But of course, like they wereall boys as well, you know.
Like there was a lack ofawareness around how it appears
(19:43):
in girls.
And also because I didn'tstruggle in school, I liked
academics.
I was like quite happyinternally, um, just being in
nature and being with my pets.
So there didn't seem to be likethat outward struggle that boys
with ADHD or um you know, boyswith um autism that requires
(20:07):
like higher support needs than Ido would appear.
So that was yeah, it was sofunny.
And I remember like telling myhusband, like, oh god, I think
I'm autistic.
And he was like, Oh, okay.
Um, and he's like, you know, Iwas starting to over-identify
with it.
And he just said to me, Look, Ididn't fall in love with you
(20:29):
because you're autistic, I fellin love with you because you're
Leonie, like it's it's Leoniefirst, and then your brain type
so much further down the levelof importance here.
So that was really affirmingfor me.
Merilyn (20:43):
I know you've you've run some things yourself, some
workshops on um theneurodivergent productivity.
What would you say, you know,what's some something you've got
some wisdom out of that?
Maybe a couple of points thatyou could share with anyone who
might be listening who like it,like alarm bells are going, oh
I'm gonna ding ding-ding.
(21:04):
What's the essence of that foryou?
And how is it perhaps differentto regular?
Leonie (21:08):
It's recognizing that like how productivity works for
neurotypical people isn'tnecessarily what's going to work
for you.
And there's no gold standardfor neurotypes, uh, sorry,
neurodivergence, uh, in terms ofproductivity or therapy, or
even like cognitive behavioraltherapy, for example, is gold
(21:28):
standard for neurotypicalpeople.
However, if you areneurodivergent, it actually can
worsen your symptoms.
And that is horrifying and veryscary to think about.
Um, because I went to CBTthinking this is gold standard,
and then was like, why do I feelso much worse?
Uh and it because it causesextra rumination.
(21:49):
So realizing that we are anunderstudied bunch and that we
can craft whatever the fuckworks for us in terms of
therapy, in terms ofproductivity, in terms of our
life.
And recognizing that there'sgoing to be a whole bunch of
things that just don't work forus.
And that's okay.
And so what we do is likeinstead play and experiment and
(22:11):
see what's going to work reallywell for us.
So for me, I don't rely on mymemory to complete things.
So I have alarms set foreverything, including like every
call.
I write out my calendar.
Maybe I'm on there.
If you're like me, then you'reprobably alarm little spicy
(22:34):
babes.
All the best people are.
Yeah, so like, and then I'llwrite out my calendar three
times and it's displayed inthree different areas in our
house at the start of everyweek.
And that's a reminder in mycalendar to like write out the
calendar.
And then I also like everysingle part of my business,
(22:58):
because I only hireneurodivergent people now.
I know that I driveneurotypical people insane at
work and they drive me insane.
So it's best for me to workwith neurodivergent people.
And they're brilliant andthey're smart and they like so
they've just got such goodcommunication skills.
And I think that's hilariousbecause so often we hear
neurodivergent people are good.
(23:18):
They're actually so muchbetter.
They're like levels ofcompassion and empathy, and it's
beyond it's the best I've everexperienced in a work
environment.
So I recognize that all of usas a team, we don't have great
short-term memory or long-termmemory.
(23:38):
Um, we're brilliant, but umthat's just not our skill.
And so everything.
Oh, yeah, that also canprobably make that shit.
It's like when you have a baby.
It's like when you have a babyand you think, what happened?
Yeah, how much my memory go.
(23:59):
And I I remember one of myolder friends, Deb, said to me,
Oh, it goes out with theplacenta.
Your memory loss is like assoon as you birth out the
placenta, you're fucked.
That's it.
It doesn't come back either,babes.
And I was like, It's theimportant parts though, right?
It's important.
Um, yeah, so we just like setup standards.
Merilyn (24:21):
Yeah, we have these standards of like reproductive,
and we can drive ourselves crazybecause we don't measure up to
that.
But there's so many things thatjust complicate that or or make
it more beautiful, however youwant to see it.
Leonie (24:37):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And also recognizing that, likeum, you know, at least 30% of
entrepreneurs have ADHD.
If you are um a firefighter ora paramedic, you're actually
genetically better off if you'vegot ADHD, your brain works
better in a crisis situation.
Um right.
(24:59):
Whoa.
Fascinating.
In terms of like this, the CEOtop 500 companies, 60 to 70
percent of them show displays of70 percent show um just show
symptoms of ADHD if they're notalready diagnosed.
Um also, when they look attribes in Africa that are still
(25:20):
like nomadic and livingsubsistence lives, the ones that
have higher amounts of ADHDgenetics are better fed.
So they are better at huntingand better at gathering.
So there is an enormous amountof benefits attached to a
neurodivergent brain.
If you look at all theinventors in the world, all the
entrepreneurs, if you look atentertainers, like if you list a
(25:43):
whole bunch of celebrities, thevast majority of them are
actually going to beneurodivergent, whether it's
ADHD, autism, dyslexia, um, andso like and so many more.
It's completely fascinating.
I've done like case studies onlike how many are, and it is
incredible.
Merilyn (25:59):
Have you also read that there's a piece that I wish I'd
kept the the link to it, but itwas saying that even the human
body, the human humanity isevolving into uh
neurodivergence, like the futurehuman will be that will be
normal and that we're breedingout.
(26:20):
Interesting.
So, what would you be?
Leonie (26:24):
Because it's an evolutionary advantage to be a
neurodivergent.
Merilyn (26:28):
That's probably why.
Leonie (26:30):
Darwin loves us, but that's because Darwin was
autistic.
Merilyn (26:35):
So, what would be one tip that you could give to
people who also know they'reneurodivergent already, to say,
okay, I just I just want to getthis time thing, just getting
things done just up a notch.
What would you say?
What was the one thing that youwould you would give them?
Leonie (26:52):
I don't know if I could give them a one thing.
One, obviously, try medicationto see if it's helpful.
For me, it's not life-changingin terms of my focus, but it's
life-changing is in terms oflike just the general overwhelm
that I experience from a dailybasis.
Two is structuring your workweek in a way that's going to
(27:13):
work for you and not againstyou.
Um, so noting where you'regoing to be feeling burnt out,
seeing where you can build in umextra hours, batching your
interviews so that, and like,you know, calls and things like
that, reducing your externalaccess to the world, like the
(27:34):
internet, the email, that kindof stuff, to try and focus more
and really embrace yourhyperfixations.
So when I'm like, I've got anidea, my team are just like,
okay, we'll see you when youcome back out.
Because they know that, like,if I'm like wanting to like go
dive deep into studyingsomething or creating something,
that's where the magic is.
And so I've got to leave roomin my life for that to happen.
Merilyn (27:58):
You mentioned before about burnout.
What's your where are you atwith that now?
Share a bit on that.
Leonie (28:08):
For me, it's uh not something that I really
experience just because theamount of like experience
anymore.
I have experience.
That's what I thought freakingbrutal.
Um, but because I've learnedfrom each like each time, it's
sort of like the burnout trainis coming for you.
And um, you know, the first fewtimes it hits, it hits hard,
(28:33):
and it's a longer recovery time.
But I feel like I get better athearing the distant sound of
the choo-choo coming for me, andcan either like break the train
so it hits less or just get offthe train track so it doesn't
hit.
So uh things like obviously theno work times, um, just
(28:55):
monitoring.
So I've got a good supportsystem.
So my husband, my twoassistants, they are um both
really good at noticing if I'mstarting to overdo things and
will pull me up and be like,hey, I don't want you to burn
out if you're taking on too manyprojects.
Um, if I like I'll also if I'mstarting to feel that anxiety
(29:18):
level raise or that kind ofdoldrums, I'll talk to them
about it and we'll we'llstrategize about how to reduce
my workload again or clear somethings off my plate so I feel
less overwhelmed.
So um it's definitely possibleto live a burnout free life,
basically, but it's justsomething that requires fairly
(29:41):
constant monitoring and justhaving some good systems in
place.
Merilyn (29:47):
Ah Leonie, this has been amazing.
Is there anything else you'dpublish?
Leonie (29:52):
I love you, Merilyn.
Let's hang out.
Merilyn (29:54):
Love you, let's do it.
Leonie (29:57):
You're already in Mudgy.
I'm gonna be living in Pampo.
So you could just save part ofthe land, dog.
Merilyn (30:02):
Drive by, we could have a coffee.
Leonie (30:04):
Yeah, nice.
You I mean, you look so cozywith your little fire.
I need a fire.
Merilyn (30:09):
I know, I've got my fire in there, and um, yeah,
there were little mice runningaround there yesterday.
So I'm like, they've come outof the cold.
Leonie (30:17):
So I'm like, oh my goodness, they want to be cozy
too.
Merilyn (30:20):
Yeah.
Anything else you want to sharebefore we wrap up?
Leonie (30:25):
Yeah, I just want to share this story because it's
cute.
I remember like at a certainpoint, we were living in this
one-bedroom old 100-year-oldhouse with my husband and our
little newborn baby, and I stillneeded to get work done and I
didn't have a place to work.
And so I would just go sit inthe park or sit in the library,
(30:47):
or I'd go sit up a tree in apark because they have these
massive fig trees.
Um, and then I ran into someissues with that because I got
stuck up the tree because therewas a snake in it, um, and it
was further down the tree thanme.
And I love that people will go,Oh, I remember back in the day
when you used to make videos inthe tree, because that's where I
used to work.
(31:07):
Um and so I know, just, youknow, I just needed to get stuff
done, and that's where I endedup.
Um, and then I was like, oh,you know what?
I probably need like a house,like a place to go when it's
raining or whatever.
So I ended up hiring thislittle $50 a week office, and it
felt like a major upgrade.
And it was just a very shittyoffice at the back of a real
(31:29):
estate place, but it came with afree pet mouse.
They didn't know that.
But I was thrilled.
This mouse loved me so muchthat I would be typing on my
little laptop and it would comeand it'd sit on my fingers while
I was typing.
And it was just it wasfriendly, it was so friendly, it
was the sweetest little thing.
He loved me.
Merilyn (31:50):
Oh, I know I feel guilty.
Leonie (31:52):
I feel so lucky.
Merilyn (31:54):
My traps out there.
I feel I feel guilty everytime.
Leonie (31:58):
That's running over your hands.
Merilyn (32:00):
I know.
Well, I've got kangaroos, I'vegot wallabies, so I've got a at
the moment they're pooing allover the lawn, so I've got to
really have, you know, wear mygum boots out there.
I've got a feral cat that livesunder the house as well.
Leonie (32:12):
Amazing.
Merilyn (32:13):
There's a there's an amazing hare.
I've never seen a hare in reallife, only in like in Beatrix
Potter books, you know, with thereally long ears and there's a
wombat.
There's a wombat hole about 20meters away, and there's fresh
digging.
So I'm gonna have to go out andcamp it out there with the with
the um torch and wait for it.
Leonie (32:32):
You are living the frontier life.
Merilyn (32:34):
I know, I know.
Leonie (32:36):
It's so weird when you see a hare for the first time,
right?
You're like, oh, it's a rabbit.
Oh no, it's no, it's not.
Merilyn (32:42):
They're big, I know, and they're like, oh my gosh, it
feels like it's jumped out of astorybook.
And it it really is reallydone.
Yeah, yeah.
Leonie (32:51):
It's extraordinary.
Merilyn (32:52):
It has nothing to do with our podcast interview, but
gosh, it's fun.
Leonie (32:56):
It's the important things, honestly.
Merilyn (32:58):
Like, I love this.
Oh, I love this.
Leonie (33:01):
I saw I saw Ibises in a V formation fly overhead this
morning on our walk, and it wasso beautiful, like all the way
overhead.
But then we came back 30minutes later, and that was
still in that V formation flyingoverhead.
And obviously, Gary's at thefront of the crop today, and he
is shit at directions.
And so he's just taking them ona merry little trip.
(33:21):
And you're gonna hear Margedown the back going, Yes!
Merilyn (33:24):
Go the wrong direction.
I'm like, isn't it a bit lateto be flying north for the for
the winter?
Leonie (33:31):
That's right, that's right, and so yeah, my little
animal friends, they're stillwith me, obviously, today.
I'm like a Disney princess.
Merilyn (33:44):
Oh, I love it.
I look, I adore getting up andseeing because there's a bunch,
there's about 25 kangaroos thatlive on the property.
They move, move locations.
And if I'm very quiet, I'll seethem when I'm do my walk.
But if you get up in themorning, they're out by the dam,
you know, having box-ups andjumping around.
And oh, it's just I don't getmuch work done because I'm just
(34:08):
sitting out watching the life.
The gosh, my nervous system isreally loving me at the right
minute right now.
Leonie (34:16):
And also, who else is going to watch them if you
aren't?
You know, like someone needs tojust...
Merilyn (34:26):
Add those as core memories to my life.
Leonie (34:29):
Exactly.
Exactly.
I remember seeing this tree inCanberra, and it was like it had
turned bright yellow, it was inour backyard, and then the
light went behind it likebecause it was like sunset and
it was foggy, and the wholething lit up like golden, like
it just the most incrediblething.
And I thought, thank god I'mhere to see this.
Who else would just marvel atit?
(34:52):
You know, we're so lucky, we'reso lucky.
Merilyn (34:56):
We are, we are, and look, that is something.
Speaking of time, I appreciateso much more now than I did 40
years ago.
It's just as you get older, I'mI'm just those moments are just
so important.
So, Leonie, a hundred years'time, you're dead and gone.
What would you like to beremembered for?
Leonie (35:16):
Nothing.
It's fine, it doesn't matter.
Like, honestly, like if I canjust provide a little bit of
fodder for a little bit of aflower or a bee or something, or
just a bit of mineral for thesoil, fucking great.
What a treat.
What a blessing.
I don't need to be room forshit.
I just want to be a part of it.
Merilyn (35:40):
The circle of life.
Leonie (35:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I want to be like a reallyfucking great ancestor and for
all of humanity, really.
And I just want to be like thislittle like cheerleader going,
fuck yeah, you can do this.
I love you so much.
You are the best.
Like, I believe in you.
I want to be that kind ofghost.
Do you know what I mean?
Merilyn (36:05):
Oh, what a great place to end.
Thank you.
This has been such a treat,such joy to talk to you.
Thank you.
I can't wait to getthis... share it with the
planet.
Leonie (36:19):
Oh, let's do it.
Let's let's all push up flowerstogether in the most beautiful
of ways.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.