September 21, 2024 • 21 mins
How can burnout be Wow? You are about to find out. Jess Stuart is an international speaker, coach and author of five personal development books specialising in mindset, performance and women in leadership.
LinkedIn: jessstuart
Website: jessstuart.co.nz
Follow Merilyn:
Instagram: @merilyn
Website: merilyn.com
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Merilyn (00:00):
Hello, I'm Merilyn and welcome to my show.
Today I'm chatting with JessStewart.
She's an author, a coach, aninternational speaker.
She has a great TED talk allabout superwomen and imposter
syndrome.
Jess (00:13):
You sat at a leadership table and everybody around the
table has at least two degreesand you're thinking, I'm not
clever enough to be here.
I have nothing to say, I havenothing to add because these
people are way cleverer than me.
And yet when I left thecorporate world, you're right,
my imposter experience didn't goaway.
It just changed.
It became who are you to be ona TV interview being called an
(00:34):
expert in something?
They'll find you out.
Or who's gonna read your books?
Merilyn (00:38):
I've never done a podcast with someone sitting in
their car before.
So..
Me neither.
Where are you in the world?
And what's your view right now?
Jess (00:48):
So I've got a beautiful view actually.
Um I'm looking out on the oceanat the moment.
I'm parked under a tree in thequietest space I could find
whilst I'm between meetings.
And I'm based in uh on WaihekeIsland, which is just off of New
Zealand, near New Zealand'sNorth Island, um, out of
Auckland.
Merilyn (01:03):
You have a very fascinating background.
You've had a decade in seniorHR roles, you've had a decade in
leadership development.
And then a really a new decade,which was exploring you,
burnout, and it's led to whatyou're doing now.
Do you want to just tell us alittle bit of that story?
(01:24):
And uh and when did you knowthat this, what you're doing
now, is probably what you wereborn to do?
Jess (01:29):
Probably not till quite recently, if I'm completely
honest.
I um I was busy climbing thecorporate ladder, you know, as
we're taught to do.
You you get your grades, youleave education, you go and get
a good job, you earn as much asyou can, you climb the ladder as
high as you can.
And that was where my focuswas.
And I loved working withpeople, and I got the privilege
to work with lots of leadershipteams across different countries
(01:51):
and industries, but there wasalways something missing for me.
And I was never sure what itwas.
And it was when I had thrownmyself into my work, done way
too many hours for way too long,and spread myself too thin in a
bid to probably avoid somestuff that was happening in my
life, if I'm honest, that I hitburnout.
And that really forced me toreconsider it, forced me to look
(02:13):
at this isn't working and thisisn't everything I thought it
would be.
Yet, how do I still use myskills and strengths in a way
that makes a difference in theworld and also puts a roof over
my head?
And so I started, it was abouteight years ago now.
I stepped away from mycorporate role and started
exploring, well, what could thatlook like?
Um, I started writing books, Istarted speaking at conferences
(02:34):
and coaching clients, and itgrew from there, really.
Um, and so I always say it's anaccidental, as opposed to
having a grand plan to gettingto this point, it's evolved over
the years and it's kind of beenan accidental thing that I know
when I look back, I'm like,well, of course, yes, this was
the answer.
But I didn't know that when Ikind of set off on the journey.
It was just the pieces fallinginto place as I went, really.
Merilyn (02:56):
What did you dream about doing as a child?
Jess (02:59):
Being being an astronaut or being the first female soccer
player in an all-male team.
Because I when I was younger,you could only play soccer
professionally if you were amale.
And I loved, yes, football,sorry.
And I love, I loved it.
Played a lot myself in thegarden, and I used to dream of
being a professional on the TV,but I knew that I could only do
(03:21):
that as part of being in a maleteam.
And I didn't want to be a male,I was happy being female, but I
wanted to do what they did.
Um, so yeah, two quiteunrealistic dreams looking back
as a kid.
Merilyn (03:32):
Who has inspired you along the way?
Who has come along?
I know you mentioned about someBuddhist monks and some nuns.
Can you tell us a little aboutthat, about that, or anyone else
who has inspired you to do whatyou're doing, to be who you
are, and to and especially itsroad through burnout?
Jess (03:49):
Yeah, I think for me, coming from the corporate world,
I had to go from one extreme tothe other to then land
somewhere in the middle.
So for me, it was coming out ofthe corner office, corporate
job, money, status, all of thatstuff, to go right to the other
end of the extreme.
And I actually went overseasand trained with Buddhist monks
and nuns.
I spent some time in northernThailand teaching English to
(04:09):
novice monks so that they couldteach me way more in return
about Buddhism and mindfulness.
And I learned another way ofbeing, and I spent a lot of time
in ashrams and retreat centrespracticing mindfulness
meditation.
And really what that's helpedme to do now is combine the
Western people psychology of myHR role and working with leaders
(04:31):
and that ancient Eastern kindof Buddhist philosophy into the
way our minds work and the waywe get the best out of
ourselves, but without burningout in the process.
And if I think career-wise,when I look at some of the women
who have reached the peak inkind of this kind of role,
people like Elizabeth Gilbert,Brene Brown, they're the people
I look up to and go, oh wow, itis possible.
(04:53):
This is what they've done, andthey share their message with
the world in a way that theyhave a huge platform and make a
huge impact.
Merilyn (04:59):
What have you seen amongst those people that you
look up to that is a commontheme in dealing with burnout?
Jess (05:06):
I think it's putting themselves first, and I think
you have to, particularly ifyou're running your own business
or you're a leader of any kindof team.
I think there's a tendency,particularly for women, for us
to be the givers and to be laston our own list.
And that's how burnout happens.
And so for me, it's being ableto prioritize ourselves in a way
that doesn't feel selfish and away that doesn't make us feel
(05:27):
guilty.
So putting me first means thatI'm at my best to deliver to
everybody else, to do what I'mcapable of doing.
And that's that applies whetherI'm at work or at home.
And the other theme that I'veseen that continually inspires
me, and I hope that we can alllearn from is this difference
between quantity and quality.
I think sometimes we'reconditioned to believe that
(05:49):
success is just about lots ofhard work, and the more hours
you do, the more successful youare.
And a lot of the people I lookup to who have made it, if you
like, if you could say that,made it, uh, and are a success,
it's been the quality of whatthey've done, not the quantity.
So they have had that balanceof work, rest, and play, and
that's made them as good as theyare, as opposed to 80-hour
(06:11):
weeks for the rest of theirlives to kind of keep at the
top.
Merilyn (06:15):
What do you do to put yourself first?
Because often you know, we saythese things, but practically
when it comes down to youarriving home today or you
starting that car and drivingoff to your next appointment,
what does putting Jess firstpractically look like?
Jess (06:33):
Yeah, for me, I tend to do it first thing in the morning
because then I've done it.
And if the day gets the betterof me, I know that I've kind of
protected that time.
So for me, it's a meditationpractice and it's some yoga
stretches.
And sometimes that is literally10 minutes of yoga and 10
minutes of meditation.
So it takes me 20 minutes, andthat's my go-to, that's my
grounding.
And then when times get busy, Ido tend to prioritize time off.
(06:55):
Monday, Friday tends to be myat-home days where I've got the
flexibility to go out for awalk, go to the beach, go for a
surf if there's waves.
But during the day, I like tocarve out those small moments,
and this is what I'm constantlytelling clients.
If if you're struggling to lookafter yourself or find time,
then making the most of thosemoments, the 20 minutes that we
have between meetings where youcan go for a walk around the
(07:17):
block, or the 10 minutes we'rewaiting for an appointment where
you can flick on a meditationapp or do a gratitude practice?
It's it's the small things Ithink that make the biggest
difference, and they're thethings we've always got time
for, particularly if you'retraveling in a car.
Merilyn (07:31):
Can you define your definition of burnout in light
also to how we're feeling on aplanet, especially let's talk
mainly to sort of look I gave alot of self-employed women
listening to the show, leaders?
How can you define burnout in aperhaps a fresh way that we
haven't heard before?
No pressure.
Jess (07:49):
Yeah, I think no pressure.
When you look at the the commondescription, we'll start there,
we'll start at the normalstuff.
When you look at the commondescription, it's it's mostly
been work related in the past.
It's about burnout at work.
We normally term it assomething where we've done too
much, so it's overworkingnormally that we tend to think
(08:09):
of burnout, a loss of motivationthat impacts our results and a
feeling of constant exhaustion.
But I think you're right, whenyou look at how that's evolved,
particularly with the globalpandemic, particularly, I mean,
we see it in our teens now aswell, with um climate change and
kind of, you know, big worldproblems, when it's not just
about the amount that we do andjust becoming continually
(08:31):
exhausted, it's also about thelack of control.
It's when we feel we don't havecontrol over something.
And I think when you look attoday's world with climate
change, with the globalpandemic, with war, with so much
other stuff, I think thisfeeling that it's like we're on
a runaway train and we don'tknow how to stop it.
And that in itself can causeburnout.
(08:51):
And likewise, if we're doingsomething where we can't see the
meaning or purpose behind it,that in itself can lead to
burnout.
So, as well as it being aquantity thing, you know, I've
done too many hours for too longand I've spread myself too
thin, it's also a quality thingaround what we're doing, how
we're doing it, and what'shappening in the world around
us.
And I think that's potentiallywhy we're seeing so much more of
(09:13):
it.
Merilyn (09:14):
What's the prescription?
I know we've talked aboutmeditating, we're talking about
things, but if someone isfeeling it right now, they're
sitting here and they go, yeah,but oh my gosh, it's a big leap
to start yoga, it's a big leapto change my, you know, my
habits, my diets.
Where would you startimmediately?
Jess (09:32):
I think if it's if it's something that's resonating
right now, and you're right, ifyou're right in the thick of
this, you won't have the energyto go to a yoga class or to, you
know, do anything of the thingsthat we've talked about.
Sometimes it's just that firststep.
It's asking for help, it'sgetting support, it's
recognizing that this issomething that's impacting you,
and it starts to build fromthere.
I always say that burnout isnot going to be solved by having
(09:54):
a day off or a sleep in on aSunday or a long weekend.
Uh, and I think a lot of usthink that we we should be
refreshed after that period oftime.
But there's some studies thathave been done around trauma,
and if your the toll it takes onyour body, even at a cellular
level, is the same amount oftime it takes to recover.
So if you've been in an abusiverelationship for a decade, then
(10:17):
in theory, it's gonna take yourbody a decade to recover at a
cellular level.
So I think that's a differentway of us looking at, you know,
I can't just have a long weekendand then come back to work and
be okay.
It's gonna take some time, andI'm gonna have to start to get
some help and support with this.
But I think the first thing ischanging our mind on this,
changing our mindset.
(10:37):
Um, and that was key for me,and particularly going from that
quality, quantity to qualitypiece, that I don't have to do
more, I have to do less, butbetter.
I think that's been key for mein terms of how I've remained
productive and performed at mypeak because we have this high
achiever drive, right?
It's not that we can just workthree days a week and be happy
with chilling out in bed andworking 10 to a three.
(10:59):
We want to achieve, we want toperform our best.
But we have to do that in a waythat's sustainable.
And I think that's where thisthe rubber really hits the road.
As much as self-care is great,the real difference is how we
think about this stuff and howwe change our working habits and
the definition we believe thatsuccess and productivity is.
Merilyn (11:19):
You are fascinated as I am by neuroscience.
Can you tell us more about theneuroscience behind the thinking
that leads to burnout?
Jess (11:27):
Yeah, it's interesting really, because we have
different behaviours that driveuh easiness, if you like.
Um, and sometimes that can befrom a place of insecurity.
So where imposter syndrome isconcerned, where perfectionism
is concerned, we're driven toover-deliver to prove ourselves.
Or we're driven to do more andnot delegate because we want it
(11:48):
done properly and we know thatwe'll do it better than anybody
else in a perfectionist terms.
And yet it can also be drivenfrom a place of things we've
learned, habits we've learned askids.
You know, the more you do, thebetter you'll be, top of the
class sort of thing.
It can be driven from a placeof martyrdom.
You know, we have some peoplehave this busy badge of honour
that they wear, and these thesethoughts that look, if I don't
(12:11):
go to work tomorrow and have theday off, every the whole place
will probably collapse withoutme.
Um, and this this feeling ofbeing valued and needed that
comes from busyness.
So there's a lot of thinkingpatterns that lie behind the
reason we are busy, and it'sdifferent for each one of us.
So understanding where ourbusyness comes from and our
tendency to overdeliver or toalways want to do more can then
(12:33):
start to help us unpick some ofthose, once we know what drives
the busyness, unpick some ofthose patterns and reform them
into something more useful thatstill has us feeling validated
and like we're achieving, butnot in a way that's detrimental
to our health.
Merilyn (12:48):
You mentioned imposter syndrome, that old chestnut
comes up again and again.
Why is it so uniquely a women'sreflection?
Jess (12:57):
Through a stage of calling it imposter experience, because
I think syndrome does soundlike a disease.
And it's it's an experiencethat we have, and it can be a
passing experience.
So I think for many women itcan be something we experience
in a new job or when we'rereturning to the workforce.
And then when we've been inthat job for five years and we
know it inside out, that kind ofvoice goes away.
(13:17):
So I liken it to a volumecontrol and a stereo.
That imposter voice is kind ofit's it's silent sometimes, and
then when we get out of ourcomfort zone, it ramps itself up
and you've got that innercritic on your shoulder saying,
I don't know if you can do this,I don't know if you're as good
as they think.
And it's interesting because itis more prevalent in women, but
I think that makes sense inthat for many, many years, women
(13:39):
have been told they are secondbest.
We've been told in theworkplace that's not really a
space we belong in, particularlyin the leadership team, you
know, if we go back decades anddecades ago.
So it's relatively new.
So I think for us to feel likean imposter is probably quite
understandable given where we'vecome from.
And that is changing now, whichis great.
But there's plenty of men outthere that that suffer with
(14:00):
imposter syndrome as well.
And I think it's just perhapsthat women talk about it more.
We have permission to share ourvulnerabilities in a way that
men perhaps don't.
They prefer to kind of keep itto themselves.
So it has this tag of beingmore prevalent in women.
Merilyn (14:12):
Women do tend to feel that more in corporate, and so
they often then go start theirown business, but they still
don't escape that impostersyndrome, they don't escape that
conditioning that you said.
Jess (14:27):
Yeah, and it's interesting because where imposter
experience is concerned, when weare confident in our own
abilities, that voice lessens.
And then we also find at thesame time when we don't need to
compare to others because we'recomfortable in what we bring to
the table.
And you're right, it constantlychanges.
So I know for me in thecorporate world, I didn't go to
(14:47):
university, so I didn't have adegree.
And yet I climbed the ranks inthe corporate world.
You know that feeling, yeah.
You're you're set at aleadership table, and everybody
around the table has at leasttwo degrees, and you're
thinking, Oh, I'm not cleverenough to be here.
I I have nothing to say, I havenothing to add because these
people are way cleverer than me.
And yet when I left thecorporate world, you're right,
(15:08):
my imposter experience didn't goaway.
It just changed.
It became who are you to be ona TV interview being called an
expert in something?
They'll find you out, or who'sgonna read your books?
And so it kind of is alwayswith us, and it's almost like
having a friend.
I love the way Liz Gilberttalks about fear as a passenger
in the car, and this is aptbecause I'm in a car, as a
passenger in the car, and Ithink imposter experience is
(15:31):
just another form of fear.
And if it's if it's there withus alongside us in the car, and
yet it doesn't get a vote, itdoesn't get a voice, it doesn't
get to touch the radio or fiddlewith the GPS, I think that's a
healthy way of us kind of beingum comfortable with we all have
strengths, and yes, we all havesome of these flaws as well.
And that's what makes us human.
(15:52):
And when we accept ourselves asa whole, flaws and all, then
we're less likely to compare toothers.
Because I think comparison isjust us looking at other people
going, oh, I wish I could havethat.
I wish I could be more like herin that space.
And yet we don't see what'sgoing on inside their head, and
we don't see their impostersyndrome sat next to them.
And so we just assume theydon't have it and they must be
(16:13):
super confident.
But we don't, it's it's thatwhole, you know, you're not
comparing apples with appleswhen when you're comparing other
people.
I love the saying, the grass isgreener where you water it.
So water your own grass anddon't worry about what the
neighbor's grass looks like.
Merilyn (16:27):
I love what you said, calling it for what it is, it's
fear.
And same with burnout, we'lloften go and treat burnout,
won't we?
But actually, what's caused itperhaps in the first place is a
flavor of fear.
Jess (16:38):
Yeah, totally.
When when you look at some ofthose behaviors why behind why
we burn out, it's because I'veburned the candle at both ends.
I've spread myself too thinbecause I didn't want to say no
in case people thought I wasincapable, or I didn't want to
let my family down so I dideverything at home as well as
doing everything at work.
Or I thought that I wasn't asqualified for my role as the
(17:00):
next person, so I worked twiceas many hours to prove myself.
There's always those reasonsbehind that ultimate, you know,
position we get to with burnoutthat are actually you're right,
driven by our fears.
Merilyn (17:10):
What do you still find hard?
What's what's something thatyou still challenge that you
have to catch or be aware of uhlately?
Jess (17:19):
I think for me, one of the hardest things is patience.
I, and and this is true forlots of high achievers, you want
it all now.
You see other people, you learnfrom them, you're kind of on
this journey, and yet it alwaystakes too long.
It always takes too long to getwhere we are.
And one of the traps I oftenfind myself falling into is that
I'm constantly striving at theexpense of never arriving.
(17:42):
And this is something I'mconstantly having to remind
myself to enjoy the process,enjoy where you are at and
reflect on where you've comefrom, because otherwise I don't
see the small steps that I'mtaking, you know, whether it's
in business or in life.
And there's always another goalto aim for.
As soon as we've achieved agoal, we've set a new one, and
that's great because that'sambition.
(18:04):
But if it's at the expense ofrecognizing our achievements and
our accomplishments, we getthis empty feeling like, well,
I've I've not achieved anythingbecause I we're constantly
focused on the things wehaven't, and that's one of my
biggest downfalls.
And it's ironic, right?
Because I write about this inmy books, and yet I keep having
to remind myself.
My wife will often say to me,Read your book.
What would you tell yourself?
(18:27):
And and that's it.
Merilyn (18:28):
Well, it's often is you know, what we teach is what we
most need to know, isn't it?
Jess (18:33):
This is true, yeah, yeah.
Merilyn (18:35):
And here's a debate is it personality?
Jess (18:38):
It's it's an interesting one.
I think it comes from a mix.
I would say it's definitelyfrom our high achiever drive,
always comes from a fear of notbeing good enough.
Um, and so that's definitelythere.
And yet, I think there is alsopersonality-wise, you know, you
want to achieve your goals, youwant to aim high, and you've got
(18:58):
things in your life you want todo, right?
So that's why it's such acareful balance because in an in
and of itself, it's a positive.
And yet, like anything, if wedon't moderate it, it can become
self-destructive.
Merilyn (19:10):
This has been wonderful chat.
Is there anything else you'dlike to leave?
Any pearls of wisdom you'd liketo leave uh the listeners?
Jess (19:17):
No, not at all, really.
I think we've talked about somefabulous stuff, and I really
enjoyed talking to you, Merilyn.
I think um, yeah, if I couldsum it all up in one phrase, it
would probably be changing ourmindset from we have to do more,
better, get it perfect, todoing being comfortable with
less but better.
That the quality of what we dois always more important than
(19:38):
the quantity, and that often ourpursuit of brilliance is what
leads to burnout.
And I think when we can changeour mindsets in that space, then
what we find is that we can bebrilliant and be human and still
have energy left for the familyat the end of the day and
achieve our goals withoutburning out in the process.
And that's some that's a giftthat I'd love for everybody to
(19:58):
experience.
Merilyn (19:59):
Thank you so much.
It's been a delight, and I'dencourage listeners to go check
out her TED Talk on it was aboutsuperwomen also get imposters.
That's the one.
What a great title.
What a great title.
Thank you.
And uh, where are you drivingto next?
Jess (20:18):
So I'm off back into the city for um another appointment
this afternoon and then home fora rest.
So looking forward to that.
Merilyn (20:24):
Oh, you're not gonna have a surf while you while
you're there.
Jess (20:27):
No, I did that yesterday.
I did that yesterday.
So I my arms are too soretoday.
Merilyn (20:32):
Thank you, Jess.
Jess (20:34):
Thank you, Marilyn.
Lovely to chat to you.
Merilyn (20:36):
Hey, if that touched you in any way, spend a few
moments in contemplation now,thinking about what you could
change about your life toprevent burnout and to rethink
imposter syndrome.
And hop over and give this showa rating.
It helps to spread the word sothat more people can be inspired
(20:58):
by these episodes.
See you on the next show.
Hello, I'm Merilyn and welcome to my show.
Today I'm chatting with JessStewart.
She's an author, a coach, aninternational speaker.
She has a great TED talk allabout superwomen and imposter
syndrome.
Jess (00:13):
You sat at a leadership table and everybody around the
table has at least two degreesand you're thinking, I'm not
clever enough to be here.
I have nothing to say, I havenothing to add because these
people are way cleverer than me.
And yet when I left thecorporate world, you're right,
my imposter experience didn't goaway.
It just changed.
It became who are you to be ona TV interview being called an
(00:34):
expert in something?
They'll find you out.
Or who's gonna read your books?
Merilyn (00:38):
I've never done a podcast with someone sitting in
their car before.
So..
Me neither.
Where are you in the world?
And what's your view right now?
Jess (00:48):
So I've got a beautiful view actually.
Um I'm looking out on the oceanat the moment.
I'm parked under a tree in thequietest space I could find
whilst I'm between meetings.
And I'm based in uh on WaihekeIsland, which is just off of New
Zealand, near New Zealand'sNorth Island, um, out of
Auckland.
Merilyn (01:03):
You have a very fascinating background.
You've had a decade in seniorHR roles, you've had a decade in
leadership development.
And then a really a new decade,which was exploring you,
burnout, and it's led to whatyou're doing now.
Do you want to just tell us alittle bit of that story?
(01:24):
And uh and when did you knowthat this, what you're doing
now, is probably what you wereborn to do?
Jess (01:29):
Probably not till quite recently, if I'm completely
honest.
I um I was busy climbing thecorporate ladder, you know, as
we're taught to do.
You you get your grades, youleave education, you go and get
a good job, you earn as much asyou can, you climb the ladder as
high as you can.
And that was where my focuswas.
And I loved working withpeople, and I got the privilege
to work with lots of leadershipteams across different countries
(01:51):
and industries, but there wasalways something missing for me.
And I was never sure what itwas.
And it was when I had thrownmyself into my work, done way
too many hours for way too long,and spread myself too thin in a
bid to probably avoid somestuff that was happening in my
life, if I'm honest, that I hitburnout.
And that really forced me toreconsider it, forced me to look
(02:13):
at this isn't working and thisisn't everything I thought it
would be.
Yet, how do I still use myskills and strengths in a way
that makes a difference in theworld and also puts a roof over
my head?
And so I started, it was abouteight years ago now.
I stepped away from mycorporate role and started
exploring, well, what could thatlook like?
Um, I started writing books, Istarted speaking at conferences
(02:34):
and coaching clients, and itgrew from there, really.
Um, and so I always say it's anaccidental, as opposed to
having a grand plan to gettingto this point, it's evolved over
the years and it's kind of beenan accidental thing that I know
when I look back, I'm like,well, of course, yes, this was
the answer.
But I didn't know that when Ikind of set off on the journey.
It was just the pieces fallinginto place as I went, really.
Merilyn (02:56):
What did you dream about doing as a child?
Jess (02:59):
Being being an astronaut or being the first female soccer
player in an all-male team.
Because I when I was younger,you could only play soccer
professionally if you were amale.
And I loved, yes, football,sorry.
And I love, I loved it.
Played a lot myself in thegarden, and I used to dream of
being a professional on the TV,but I knew that I could only do
(03:21):
that as part of being in a maleteam.
And I didn't want to be a male,I was happy being female, but I
wanted to do what they did.
Um, so yeah, two quiteunrealistic dreams looking back
as a kid.
Merilyn (03:32):
Who has inspired you along the way?
Who has come along?
I know you mentioned about someBuddhist monks and some nuns.
Can you tell us a little aboutthat, about that, or anyone else
who has inspired you to do whatyou're doing, to be who you
are, and to and especially itsroad through burnout?
Jess (03:49):
Yeah, I think for me, coming from the corporate world,
I had to go from one extreme tothe other to then land
somewhere in the middle.
So for me, it was coming out ofthe corner office, corporate
job, money, status, all of thatstuff, to go right to the other
end of the extreme.
And I actually went overseasand trained with Buddhist monks
and nuns.
I spent some time in northernThailand teaching English to
(04:09):
novice monks so that they couldteach me way more in return
about Buddhism and mindfulness.
And I learned another way ofbeing, and I spent a lot of time
in ashrams and retreat centrespracticing mindfulness
meditation.
And really what that's helpedme to do now is combine the
Western people psychology of myHR role and working with leaders
(04:31):
and that ancient Eastern kindof Buddhist philosophy into the
way our minds work and the waywe get the best out of
ourselves, but without burningout in the process.
And if I think career-wise,when I look at some of the women
who have reached the peak inkind of this kind of role,
people like Elizabeth Gilbert,Brene Brown, they're the people
I look up to and go, oh wow, itis possible.
(04:53):
This is what they've done, andthey share their message with
the world in a way that theyhave a huge platform and make a
huge impact.
Merilyn (04:59):
What have you seen amongst those people that you
look up to that is a commontheme in dealing with burnout?
Jess (05:06):
I think it's putting themselves first, and I think
you have to, particularly ifyou're running your own business
or you're a leader of any kindof team.
I think there's a tendency,particularly for women, for us
to be the givers and to be laston our own list.
And that's how burnout happens.
And so for me, it's being ableto prioritize ourselves in a way
that doesn't feel selfish and away that doesn't make us feel
(05:27):
guilty.
So putting me first means thatI'm at my best to deliver to
everybody else, to do what I'mcapable of doing.
And that's that applies whetherI'm at work or at home.
And the other theme that I'veseen that continually inspires
me, and I hope that we can alllearn from is this difference
between quantity and quality.
I think sometimes we'reconditioned to believe that
(05:49):
success is just about lots ofhard work, and the more hours
you do, the more successful youare.
And a lot of the people I lookup to who have made it, if you
like, if you could say that,made it, uh, and are a success,
it's been the quality of whatthey've done, not the quantity.
So they have had that balanceof work, rest, and play, and
that's made them as good as theyare, as opposed to 80-hour
(06:11):
weeks for the rest of theirlives to kind of keep at the
top.
Merilyn (06:15):
What do you do to put yourself first?
Because often you know, we saythese things, but practically
when it comes down to youarriving home today or you
starting that car and drivingoff to your next appointment,
what does putting Jess firstpractically look like?
Jess (06:33):
Yeah, for me, I tend to do it first thing in the morning
because then I've done it.
And if the day gets the betterof me, I know that I've kind of
protected that time.
So for me, it's a meditationpractice and it's some yoga
stretches.
And sometimes that is literally10 minutes of yoga and 10
minutes of meditation.
So it takes me 20 minutes, andthat's my go-to, that's my
grounding.
And then when times get busy, Ido tend to prioritize time off.
(06:55):
Monday, Friday tends to be myat-home days where I've got the
flexibility to go out for awalk, go to the beach, go for a
surf if there's waves.
But during the day, I like tocarve out those small moments,
and this is what I'm constantlytelling clients.
If if you're struggling to lookafter yourself or find time,
then making the most of thosemoments, the 20 minutes that we
have between meetings where youcan go for a walk around the
(07:17):
block, or the 10 minutes we'rewaiting for an appointment where
you can flick on a meditationapp or do a gratitude practice?
It's it's the small things Ithink that make the biggest
difference, and they're thethings we've always got time
for, particularly if you'retraveling in a car.
Merilyn (07:31):
Can you define your definition of burnout in light
also to how we're feeling on aplanet, especially let's talk
mainly to sort of look I gave alot of self-employed women
listening to the show, leaders?
How can you define burnout in aperhaps a fresh way that we
haven't heard before?
No pressure.
Jess (07:49):
Yeah, I think no pressure.
When you look at the the commondescription, we'll start there,
we'll start at the normalstuff.
When you look at the commondescription, it's it's mostly
been work related in the past.
It's about burnout at work.
We normally term it assomething where we've done too
much, so it's overworkingnormally that we tend to think
(08:09):
of burnout, a loss of motivationthat impacts our results and a
feeling of constant exhaustion.
But I think you're right, whenyou look at how that's evolved,
particularly with the globalpandemic, particularly, I mean,
we see it in our teens now aswell, with um climate change and
kind of, you know, big worldproblems, when it's not just
about the amount that we do andjust becoming continually
(08:31):
exhausted, it's also about thelack of control.
It's when we feel we don't havecontrol over something.
And I think when you look attoday's world with climate
change, with the globalpandemic, with war, with so much
other stuff, I think thisfeeling that it's like we're on
a runaway train and we don'tknow how to stop it.
And that in itself can causeburnout.
(08:51):
And likewise, if we're doingsomething where we can't see the
meaning or purpose behind it,that in itself can lead to
burnout.
So, as well as it being aquantity thing, you know, I've
done too many hours for too longand I've spread myself too
thin, it's also a quality thingaround what we're doing, how
we're doing it, and what'shappening in the world around
us.
And I think that's potentiallywhy we're seeing so much more of
(09:13):
it.
Merilyn (09:14):
What's the prescription?
I know we've talked aboutmeditating, we're talking about
things, but if someone isfeeling it right now, they're
sitting here and they go, yeah,but oh my gosh, it's a big leap
to start yoga, it's a big leapto change my, you know, my
habits, my diets.
Where would you startimmediately?
Jess (09:32):
I think if it's if it's something that's resonating
right now, and you're right, ifyou're right in the thick of
this, you won't have the energyto go to a yoga class or to, you
know, do anything of the thingsthat we've talked about.
Sometimes it's just that firststep.
It's asking for help, it'sgetting support, it's
recognizing that this issomething that's impacting you,
and it starts to build fromthere.
I always say that burnout isnot going to be solved by having
(09:54):
a day off or a sleep in on aSunday or a long weekend.
Uh, and I think a lot of usthink that we we should be
refreshed after that period oftime.
But there's some studies thathave been done around trauma,
and if your the toll it takes onyour body, even at a cellular
level, is the same amount oftime it takes to recover.
So if you've been in an abusiverelationship for a decade, then
(10:17):
in theory, it's gonna take yourbody a decade to recover at a
cellular level.
So I think that's a differentway of us looking at, you know,
I can't just have a long weekendand then come back to work and
be okay.
It's gonna take some time, andI'm gonna have to start to get
some help and support with this.
But I think the first thing ischanging our mind on this,
changing our mindset.
(10:37):
Um, and that was key for me,and particularly going from that
quality, quantity to qualitypiece, that I don't have to do
more, I have to do less, butbetter.
I think that's been key for mein terms of how I've remained
productive and performed at mypeak because we have this high
achiever drive, right?
It's not that we can just workthree days a week and be happy
with chilling out in bed andworking 10 to a three.
(10:59):
We want to achieve, we want toperform our best.
But we have to do that in a waythat's sustainable.
And I think that's where thisthe rubber really hits the road.
As much as self-care is great,the real difference is how we
think about this stuff and howwe change our working habits and
the definition we believe thatsuccess and productivity is.
Merilyn (11:19):
You are fascinated as I am by neuroscience.
Can you tell us more about theneuroscience behind the thinking
that leads to burnout?
Jess (11:27):
Yeah, it's interesting really, because we have
different behaviours that driveuh easiness, if you like.
Um, and sometimes that can befrom a place of insecurity.
So where imposter syndrome isconcerned, where perfectionism
is concerned, we're driven toover-deliver to prove ourselves.
Or we're driven to do more andnot delegate because we want it
(11:48):
done properly and we know thatwe'll do it better than anybody
else in a perfectionist terms.
And yet it can also be drivenfrom a place of things we've
learned, habits we've learned askids.
You know, the more you do, thebetter you'll be, top of the
class sort of thing.
It can be driven from a placeof martyrdom.
You know, we have some peoplehave this busy badge of honour
that they wear, and these thesethoughts that look, if I don't
(12:11):
go to work tomorrow and have theday off, every the whole place
will probably collapse withoutme.
Um, and this this feeling ofbeing valued and needed that
comes from busyness.
So there's a lot of thinkingpatterns that lie behind the
reason we are busy, and it'sdifferent for each one of us.
So understanding where ourbusyness comes from and our
tendency to overdeliver or toalways want to do more can then
(12:33):
start to help us unpick some ofthose, once we know what drives
the busyness, unpick some ofthose patterns and reform them
into something more useful thatstill has us feeling validated
and like we're achieving, butnot in a way that's detrimental
to our health.
Merilyn (12:48):
You mentioned imposter syndrome, that old chestnut
comes up again and again.
Why is it so uniquely a women'sreflection?
Jess (12:57):
Through a stage of calling it imposter experience, because
I think syndrome does soundlike a disease.
And it's it's an experiencethat we have, and it can be a
passing experience.
So I think for many women itcan be something we experience
in a new job or when we'rereturning to the workforce.
And then when we've been inthat job for five years and we
know it inside out, that kind ofvoice goes away.
(13:17):
So I liken it to a volumecontrol and a stereo.
That imposter voice is kind ofit's it's silent sometimes, and
then when we get out of ourcomfort zone, it ramps itself up
and you've got that innercritic on your shoulder saying,
I don't know if you can do this,I don't know if you're as good
as they think.
And it's interesting because itis more prevalent in women, but
I think that makes sense inthat for many, many years, women
(13:39):
have been told they are secondbest.
We've been told in theworkplace that's not really a
space we belong in, particularlyin the leadership team, you
know, if we go back decades anddecades ago.
So it's relatively new.
So I think for us to feel likean imposter is probably quite
understandable given where we'vecome from.
And that is changing now, whichis great.
But there's plenty of men outthere that that suffer with
(14:00):
imposter syndrome as well.
And I think it's just perhapsthat women talk about it more.
We have permission to share ourvulnerabilities in a way that
men perhaps don't.
They prefer to kind of keep itto themselves.
So it has this tag of beingmore prevalent in women.
Merilyn (14:12):
Women do tend to feel that more in corporate, and so
they often then go start theirown business, but they still
don't escape that impostersyndrome, they don't escape that
conditioning that you said.
Jess (14:27):
Yeah, and it's interesting because where imposter
experience is concerned, when weare confident in our own
abilities, that voice lessens.
And then we also find at thesame time when we don't need to
compare to others because we'recomfortable in what we bring to
the table.
And you're right, it constantlychanges.
So I know for me in thecorporate world, I didn't go to
(14:47):
university, so I didn't have adegree.
And yet I climbed the ranks inthe corporate world.
You know that feeling, yeah.
You're you're set at aleadership table, and everybody
around the table has at leasttwo degrees, and you're
thinking, Oh, I'm not cleverenough to be here.
I I have nothing to say, I havenothing to add because these
people are way cleverer than me.
And yet when I left thecorporate world, you're right,
(15:08):
my imposter experience didn't goaway.
It just changed.
It became who are you to be ona TV interview being called an
expert in something?
They'll find you out, or who'sgonna read your books?
And so it kind of is alwayswith us, and it's almost like
having a friend.
I love the way Liz Gilberttalks about fear as a passenger
in the car, and this is aptbecause I'm in a car, as a
passenger in the car, and Ithink imposter experience is
(15:31):
just another form of fear.
And if it's if it's there withus alongside us in the car, and
yet it doesn't get a vote, itdoesn't get a voice, it doesn't
get to touch the radio or fiddlewith the GPS, I think that's a
healthy way of us kind of beingum comfortable with we all have
strengths, and yes, we all havesome of these flaws as well.
And that's what makes us human.
(15:52):
And when we accept ourselves asa whole, flaws and all, then
we're less likely to compare toothers.
Because I think comparison isjust us looking at other people
going, oh, I wish I could havethat.
I wish I could be more like herin that space.
And yet we don't see what'sgoing on inside their head, and
we don't see their impostersyndrome sat next to them.
And so we just assume theydon't have it and they must be
(16:13):
super confident.
But we don't, it's it's thatwhole, you know, you're not
comparing apples with appleswhen when you're comparing other
people.
I love the saying, the grass isgreener where you water it.
So water your own grass anddon't worry about what the
neighbor's grass looks like.
Merilyn (16:27):
I love what you said, calling it for what it is, it's
fear.
And same with burnout, we'lloften go and treat burnout,
won't we?
But actually, what's caused itperhaps in the first place is a
flavor of fear.
Jess (16:38):
Yeah, totally.
When when you look at some ofthose behaviors why behind why
we burn out, it's because I'veburned the candle at both ends.
I've spread myself too thinbecause I didn't want to say no
in case people thought I wasincapable, or I didn't want to
let my family down so I dideverything at home as well as
doing everything at work.
Or I thought that I wasn't asqualified for my role as the
(17:00):
next person, so I worked twiceas many hours to prove myself.
There's always those reasonsbehind that ultimate, you know,
position we get to with burnoutthat are actually you're right,
driven by our fears.
Merilyn (17:10):
What do you still find hard?
What's what's something thatyou still challenge that you
have to catch or be aware of uhlately?
Jess (17:19):
I think for me, one of the hardest things is patience.
I, and and this is true forlots of high achievers, you want
it all now.
You see other people, you learnfrom them, you're kind of on
this journey, and yet it alwaystakes too long.
It always takes too long to getwhere we are.
And one of the traps I oftenfind myself falling into is that
I'm constantly striving at theexpense of never arriving.
(17:42):
And this is something I'mconstantly having to remind
myself to enjoy the process,enjoy where you are at and
reflect on where you've comefrom, because otherwise I don't
see the small steps that I'mtaking, you know, whether it's
in business or in life.
And there's always another goalto aim for.
As soon as we've achieved agoal, we've set a new one, and
that's great because that'sambition.
(18:04):
But if it's at the expense ofrecognizing our achievements and
our accomplishments, we getthis empty feeling like, well,
I've I've not achieved anythingbecause I we're constantly
focused on the things wehaven't, and that's one of my
biggest downfalls.
And it's ironic, right?
Because I write about this inmy books, and yet I keep having
to remind myself.
My wife will often say to me,Read your book.
What would you tell yourself?
(18:27):
And and that's it.
Merilyn (18:28):
Well, it's often is you know, what we teach is what we
most need to know, isn't it?
Jess (18:33):
This is true, yeah, yeah.
Merilyn (18:35):
And here's a debate is it personality?
Jess (18:38):
It's it's an interesting one.
I think it comes from a mix.
I would say it's definitelyfrom our high achiever drive,
always comes from a fear of notbeing good enough.
Um, and so that's definitelythere.
And yet, I think there is alsopersonality-wise, you know, you
want to achieve your goals, youwant to aim high, and you've got
(18:58):
things in your life you want todo, right?
So that's why it's such acareful balance because in an in
and of itself, it's a positive.
And yet, like anything, if wedon't moderate it, it can become
self-destructive.
Merilyn (19:10):
This has been wonderful chat.
Is there anything else you'dlike to leave?
Any pearls of wisdom you'd liketo leave uh the listeners?
Jess (19:17):
No, not at all, really.
I think we've talked about somefabulous stuff, and I really
enjoyed talking to you, Merilyn.
I think um, yeah, if I couldsum it all up in one phrase, it
would probably be changing ourmindset from we have to do more,
better, get it perfect, todoing being comfortable with
less but better.
That the quality of what we dois always more important than
(19:38):
the quantity, and that often ourpursuit of brilliance is what
leads to burnout.
And I think when we can changeour mindsets in that space, then
what we find is that we can bebrilliant and be human and still
have energy left for the familyat the end of the day and
achieve our goals withoutburning out in the process.
And that's some that's a giftthat I'd love for everybody to
(19:58):
experience.
Merilyn (19:59):
Thank you so much.
It's been a delight, and I'dencourage listeners to go check
out her TED Talk on it was aboutsuperwomen also get imposters.
That's the one.
What a great title.
What a great title.
Thank you.
And uh, where are you drivingto next?
Jess (20:18):
So I'm off back into the city for um another appointment
this afternoon and then home fora rest.
So looking forward to that.
Merilyn (20:24):
Oh, you're not gonna have a surf while you while
you're there.
Jess (20:27):
No, I did that yesterday.
I did that yesterday.
So I my arms are too soretoday.
Merilyn (20:32):
Thank you, Jess.
Jess (20:34):
Thank you, Marilyn.
Lovely to chat to you.
Merilyn (20:36):
Hey, if that touched you in any way, spend a few
moments in contemplation now,thinking about what you could
change about your life toprevent burnout and to rethink
imposter syndrome.
And hop over and give this showa rating.
It helps to spread the word sothat more people can be inspired
(20:58):
by these episodes.
See you on the next show.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!