October 29, 2024 • 40 mins
What a refreshing conversation. Yes we chatted about coaching, but we went deep, touching many issues the world is battling with right now. This was a chat about hope. Lee Chaix McDonough is a psychotherapist who created an organisation to support coaches, intuitives and healing professionals in business skills.
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Episode Transcript
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Merilyn (00:00):
Hello there, and welcome to my show.
I'm Merilyn, and in today'sepisode, I'm chatting with the
incredible Lee Chaix McDonough.
Lee (00:08):
Oftentimes what I find is when people excel in an area,
especially if they tend to bethose kind of big visionary
thinkers, it's so easy to seewhat's possible and what you can
create and what you can become.
But then you see where you arenow, and the chasm between the
two feels so wide.
And the thought of crossingthat becomes overwhelming.
(00:30):
And that's where we start todoubt ourselves.
And the anxiety and the fearand the sadness come in.
Merilyn (00:36):
Lee is a psychotherapist who created an
organization called Coach withClarity that supports coaches,
intuitives, and healingprofessionals in business
skills.
It's a deep, inspiring,hope-filled conversation.
Let's go.
Welcome to the show, Lee.
Lee (00:57):
I am so glad to be here.
Thank you for having me,Merilyn.
Merilyn (01:00):
So Lee, you weren't always a coach, but you are now.
You come from psychotherapybackground and a social worker
background.
So always people helpingpeople.
When did you know?
At what stage of your life didyou know that you were kind of
born to help people in whateveraspect that is?
Lee (01:19):
I think that's something that I always knew from a very
young age.
I was definitely mommy's littlehelper.
I was five when my youngestbrother was born.
I remember him being born.
I remember him coming home andwanting to take care of him.
So I do think at a very youngage, yes, that yes, that
instinct to help others wasthere.
And then of course, as I grew,it took shape in different
(01:42):
forms.
Honestly, some of them notmaybe so healthy in terms of
some of my friendships and earlyrelationships in my teens and
20s.
Um, and so I had to learn whatit meant to be a helper and to
support others withoutsacrificing myself at the same
time.
Merilyn (01:57):
Which is often that archetype of helper server is
very much over-self-sacrificing,aren't they?
Lee (02:06):
Yes.
Merilyn (02:07):
What made you decide to take that jump or that leap
from the public uh public careand psychotherapy into coaching?
And you're also very highlyqualified coach as well.
Lee (02:21):
Oh, well, thank you.
Yes.
Uh, and I have to tell you, ifyou had told me six or seven
years ago that I would be acoach running my own business, I
would have laughed because thatwas nowhere in my trajectory,
truly.
I went into mental health, Ibecame a psychotherapist.
I really thought that was goingto be my life's work.
And, you know, I mean, 12, 15years is a good amount of time
(02:44):
to do something.
But um, in 2015, my husband gotout of the United States Air
Force.
He was serving in the military.
We had been stationed overseasin Germany for four years.
It was a wonderful experience.
And then we moved back to theStates and we had two children
who had essentially grown up inEurope.
My husband was going frommilitary to civilian life.
(03:05):
He bought a dental practicebecause he's a dentist.
Big changes, yes.
And so I pressed pause on mycareer so that I could help my
family navigate that transition.
And it was a little less than ayear when I started getting the
itch to return to some sort ofprofessional involvement.
And yet I also knew there wasthis little voice inside me that
(03:28):
said, uh, mental health is notreally where you're called to be
anymore.
Which, to be honest with you,is a very scary place to be
because this had been my wholecareer.
This is what I'd known.
So much of my identity wasconnected to being a social
worker and a public healthprofessional and a therapist.
So if I wasn't those things,what was I?
(03:50):
And while all of this was goingon, my husband was navigating
being both a periodontist, so aclinician, and a business owner.
And I was supporting him in thepractice, and we both realized
quickly that our professionaleducation and experience did not
prepare us for the businessside of things.
And it was so true.
Merilyn (04:10):
It's so true.
Lee (04:13):
Dental school didn't teach him how to own a dental
practice, and a social workschool didn't teach me how to
own a private practice either.
So we had a lot of on-the-jobtraining, a lot of figuring
things out as we went.
It was a very stressful period.
And I remember thinking, Ireally wish there were someone
out there who could have helpedus navigate this from a
(04:33):
strategic position, like what weshould do, but also how do we
handle all of the mindset stuffthat comes up?
The I don't know what I'mdoing.
Who am I?
Yes, yes.
And so when I actually did alittle research around that,
that's when I discoveredcoaching.
And I thought, oh, oh, there'sthis, there's this whole world
out there that I was completelyunfamiliar with.
(04:56):
And the more I looked into it,the more that little voice
inside said, This is it.
This is your next step.
And so I took a leap of faithand I said, All right, I'm I'm
gonna do that.
And if I'm gonna do this, I'mgonna do this.
And so I enrolled in a coachtraining program.
I got my credential through theInternational Coaching
Federation.
I started my own business.
And, you know, over the lastsix years, it's evolved into
(05:19):
what is now largely a trainingand education company for life
and business coaches so that Ican help other people on their
journey as well.
Merilyn (05:27):
Oh, that's so good.
Two things I would love to drawto just draw the thread out a
little bit is uh the first thingis that little voice inside.
Tell us about that becausethat's so beautiful that you
listen to that.
Was that in your head?
Was that in your gut?
Was that in your heart?
And why do we sometimes fightthat voice that's there?
(05:52):
Or people say, I can't hearthat voice.
Lee (05:55):
Yes.
Merilyn (05:56):
What's your experience?
Lee (05:57):
I my I I view that voice.
I think there's many names forthat voice.
Some people call it intuitionor inner wisdom or your gut
feeling.
I think it's a gift that we allhave as humans.
I think we all have access tothat.
Some of us are more comfortableor or have more practice
listening to it.
But I know for me, it's beenpresent throughout my entire
(06:18):
life.
Um, just a sense of knowing,even if there wasn't physical
evidence to confirm it, I wouldjust know something.
And I also learned that when Iwent against that little voice,
I usually paid the price.
There were there were someconsequences there.
So it's taken me some time andsome rough lessons to learn that
(06:40):
that voice, that's my innercompass.
And so when I can tune into itand allow it a seat at the
decision-making table, I'mbetter for it.
And um it shows up in differentways for me, but I I think I
get a very deep knowing in mysolar plexus.
It's almost like somethinglands, it's a feeling of just
(07:03):
grounding and security.
And like if I could make asound, it would just be like it
just locks in.
And so when I get that sense, Iknow this is something to pay
attention to.
And when I was exploringcoaching, that was certainly one
of those moments where I hadthat landing feeling, even
though it didn't necessarilymake sense on a cerebral level,
(07:26):
even though my mind was reallyquestioning and doubting and had
lots of thoughts about it.
When I got quiet and reallyallowed that inner voice to
speak, I knew that this was theright choice.
Merilyn (07:38):
I love that.
And I I think it's my new pettopic.
I want to explore, it's notnew, but it's been around there.
And I'm like, so many peopleare now talking about it, is
listening into our body.
We've given the brain too muchauthority, haven't we?
And so what often happens ispeople will feel that it might
be their gut or them or theirsolar plexus or their emotions.
(07:58):
But then the brain comes in,well, well, how will that work?
When are you going to do that?
And it's we often just listento that brain, don't we?
As a psychotherapist, what anda coach around mindset, what do
you can you expand that on forme?
Lee (08:15):
Yes.
And so the way that I like toview this is that our mind is
doing its job.
Our mind is designed to keep ussafe, to keep us whole, to keep
us part of the herd.
And so when we think aboutdoing something that makes us
vulnerable, puts us away fromthe herd, all of a sudden the
(08:37):
mind is like, uh-uh, not safe,come back in.
And it's going to do whateverit needs to to bring us back in.
And for many of us, that's therole of the inner critic.
That self-doubt, the questions,the unwanted thoughts, it's a
very powerful and ofteneffective way to get us to doubt
ourselves, to change our mind,to change our behavior.
(08:59):
And so I don't blame the mind.
And I've learned to not evenview this as problematic.
Instead, it's simply the minddoing what it's wired to do.
And so when I have thatrecognition, when I have a
thought that gives me thattight, anxious feeling in my
throat, um, I could I can pauseand say, ah, here we go again.
(09:20):
All right, let's check in.
What's really going on here?
And then in that pause, in thatspace where we're able to
separate our identity from thethought and recognize that just
because we're having a thoughtdoesn't mean we have to buy into
that thought.
That's where we have power.
That's where we get to choose.
And we can choose whether it'sa thought that maybe we should
listen to, maybe this is a timeto be safe, or is this a time to
(09:44):
step out and do something bigand brave and bold?
So the mind really it thinksit's doing its job, you know,
and and that's why I thinkbringing a sense of compassion
to to this and understanding isso important, not demonizing
that inner critic, but justsaying, I see you, I see what
you're doing, thank you.
Not needed right now.
Merilyn (10:04):
Oh, that's beautiful, Lee.
And I love asking that questionbecause I know it's something
that comes up a lot with peopleand they have that conflict.
And yeah, the brain is justdoing its job description, isn't
it?
But I love asking it becauseyou know, you hear people
describe that, and sometimes apenny drops more than others.
So I could feel penny drops forfuture listeners listening to
(10:28):
that.
That was so clear.
You mentioned you were livingin Germany, and I'm a big
advocate for I think everyoneshould live overseas at some
stage of their life.
How did you find that?
And often I find uh maybe it'sa stereotype that often um
people, people, US citizens,often don't well, you don't need
(10:50):
to travel, you've got such abig scope, big country.
Uh did you find it was unusualamongst your your peers, your
family, and and what would yousay to that statement that I
said that everyone should liveoverseas?
Lee (11:06):
I agree wholeheartedly.
I think there is such value inputting yourself in a position
where you are in a new cultureand where you're learning from
others and you're appreciatingthat, and you're not coming in
and expecting people to changetheir ways or cater to you, like
to really immerse yourself inanother culture is such a
beautiful way to learn andrespect the world around us.
(11:29):
So I agree with youwholeheartedly.
I loved my time in Germany,loved it.
Now, I will admit that becausewe were there as part of an Air
Force base, I feel like I hadthe best of both worlds.
We lived off base.
We it was called living on theeconomy.
So we lived in a German town.
We had German landlords, I wentto local German shops and the
(11:50):
grocery store and restaurants,and so I had that piece, but I
also had Little America on base,and that's where I worked.
That's you know, where myhusband worked.
We had we had a community thereas well.
So I do recognize that in manyways I was spoiled because I got
both.
I got to have America andGermany all in one.
But we did a lot of travelingwhile we were there.
(12:11):
It's so easy to travel inEurope because the rail system
is tremendous.
Uh, there's low-cost airlines.
And so we were alwaystraveling.
And I think what I appreciatemost is that my children got to
do that too.
When we moved to Germany, theywere two and four.
So when we came back to theStates, they were six and eight.
So their formative years werespent overseas being a part of
(12:34):
all of these rich traditions inthe dozens of countries that we
went to.
And I like to think it reallyshaped their worldview and it
will help them be better adults,better human beings.
Um, and especially in light ofin the United States, what's
going on politically, it's justso divisive.
And we've really become usagainst them.
(12:54):
And I really think that travelis a way to bridge that gap.
That when you have theexperience of being with other
people and other cultures, youit it keeps you from your, it
keeps your thinking from beingtoo myopic.
And so I agree that if youcan't live overseas, at least
travel because it's just goingto expand your worldview.
And I think that is that is thepath back to to deeper
(13:16):
connections.
Merilyn (13:18):
You mentioned before that you you're a highly
qualified woman.
Your husband is a highlyqualified man, but you came
back, and the business side wassomething that it was just
foreign and it plays on yourmind.
So, no matter how educated youmight be, even in your
(13:39):
professional field, going into abusiness is like it's a
completely different beast,isn't it?
Can you talk a little bit more?
And especially to someone who'sfeeling that roller coaster
ride right now, what perhapswhat they could do.
Lee (13:54):
Absolutely.
I just want to acknowledge thatit is a very unique type of
tension when you excel in onearea of your life and you are a
novice in another.
And because you know, well, I'mreally good at this one thing.
Like, I know what I'm doing.
I'm smart, I've got thecredentials, I've got the
experience.
Like, look at this.
But wow, when it comes to thisother area, I have no idea what
(14:15):
I'm doing.
That is a very uncomfortableplace to be.
Uh, for some people, it comesout with anxiety, others with
anger, some with depression.
So it can be a heavy, hard roadto navigate.
And so I just want to start bysaying if if you're feeling that
way, you're not alone.
And I would even say it'snormal.
(14:36):
Because oftentimes what I findis when people excel in an area,
especially if they tend to bethose kind of big visionary
thinkers, it's so easy to seewhat's possible and what you can
create and what you can become.
But then you see where you arenow, and the chasm between the
two feels so wide.
And the thought of crossingthat becomes overwhelming.
(14:59):
And that's where we start todoubt ourselves.
And the anxiety and the fearand the sadness come in.
So that's something that Iactually see quite a lot with
some of my private coachingclients who are making a
transition from one career intoanother, and they're having to
not start over, but they arehaving to learn some new skills
and some new strategies.
(15:19):
And it's hard being a novice.
It's it's hard to do somethingnew.
Um, and that's where, and I'mI'm sure you're familiar too
with the concept of thebeginner's mind, of actually
welcoming that, of saying, Idon't have to know all of the
things right now.
I'm not supposed to know all ofthe things right now.
It's okay for me to be in thisin this beginner spot and to
(15:40):
learn and to learn througherrors and and to refine and do
better next time.
Uh, and eventually I will gainthat mastery.
I've done it once before, Iknow I can do it again.
Merilyn (15:53):
And for some people, it's not a lineal, linear path,
is it?
They can you find, especiallyif they move careers or move
into their own business later inlife, it's not just a lot of
this thinking of I've got to goback to the beginning again, but
it's not.
They can leapfrog stages, can'tthey?
Lee (16:12):
Absolutely.
There is so much that you cantake from your earlier
experiences, your earliercareer, and leverage that into
what you're doing now.
So much of what you've learnedand experienced translates.
I think um, you know, I sawthis funny meme once where it
was like, How I think my lifeshould go, and it was like a
straight line up, and it was howmy life actually goes and it
(16:32):
was right, a whole mess.
What I have what I have found,especially in business, is that
actually it's more like acorkscrew that's heading up.
But because it's a corkscrew,we have those periods of time
where we regress.
It feels like we're headingdown, it feels like we're going
backwards, but sometimes we needto do that to springboard us
into our next cycle ofevolution, our next growth.
(16:56):
And so I frequently remindmyself of that when I hit those
moments where I feel like I'mgoing backwards.
It's like, nope, this is thecorkscrew.
This is this is the retractionbefore I expand.
And so I think that's alsomaybe a helpful thing to
remember when we're feelinglike, oh man, I'm just I'm
stuck, I'm not doing it right.
Nope, this is part of the cycleand this too shall pass.
Merilyn (17:19):
And think of the beautiful bottle of wine you've
just opened.
Lee (17:24):
Corkscrews are good for more than one thing.
Merilyn (17:28):
That uh that phrase, the second act, I know you use,
you know, the great resignationand the great change.
There's so we could see itvisibly in the world.
There's a shakeup happening.
And so many, especially women,are questioning.
Well, no, not especially women.
I think humans are awakening.
Humans are saying, What am Idoing with my life?
(17:51):
I'm don't want to go thistrajectory that I trajectory
that I was on.
I want something with meaning.
I want something with purposeand contribution and that fills
me.
I mean, I call it your wow, youknow, discovering that wow and
following that.
Can you?
I mean, you're an advocate forcoaching.
(18:11):
Is that a good direction totake for people?
Or is it yeah, I'd love yourthoughts on that whole topic
because it's huge.
Lee (18:22):
Yeah, I think, well, and I so many of the people I work
with are kind of in their secondact.
They're they're making atransition, whether into a new
career or a new hobby, sometimesa new relationship.
Um, and and I think that reallyit's about expansion and
fulfillment.
Now, for some people, theydon't necessarily need to switch
(18:43):
jobs or switch towns toexperience expansion and
fulfillment.
They're able to find thatwithin their existing framework.
And if that's the case, likelet's let's go, let's let's dive
in and get deep.
But I do think that many of usare seeing that we want our
careers to be an expression ofwho we are.
(19:04):
And many of us chose ourcareers when we were younger,
18, 22, 25, when we were stillgrowing and we were still
figuring out who we were.
So it makes sense that as weevolve, our career aspirations,
our life goals, they're gonnaevolve as well.
And so if that means pivotingor transitioning in your 30s,
40s, 50s beyond, I don't seethat as a problem.
(19:27):
I don't see it as a bug.
I see it as a feature,actually.
I see it as what we're designedto do.
It's just a part of our of ourgrowth.
Merilyn (19:35):
I love that word expansion too.
It's it's an expansion, notnecessarily a big change, but an
expansion, isn't it?
Lee (19:45):
I think so.
And and you know, expandingmeans we are we are growing.
And that means that we'repushing against the the barriers
that we've held for ourselves,those, those boundaries.
And and that can be painful.
There, there can be there canbe a difficult moment in that
expansion.
There can be fear, there can beuncertainty.
(20:06):
Um and I don't, again, I don'tsee that as a as a negative
thing.
It's just part of the process.
And when we see that, when wenormalize it, then all of a
sudden it doesn't feel so scary.
Merilyn (20:18):
I noticed a quote on your website and I love it.
I'm gonna read it out.
Your training experience andhealing spirit are completely
transferable to the world ofcoaching.
You already have many of thetools you need to coach your
clients.
I've not seen that phrasehealing spirit before.
Why...
tell us about that?
Lee (20:40):
I find that many of the people that I work with, and and
myself actually, and I suspectyou, on some level, we are
healers.
We are here to heal perhapsindividuals, but maybe heal the
world.
Um, and and we do that throughservice.
And so even if we're not inhealthcare or mental health,
even if we're attorneys orteachers or other types of
(21:02):
service professionals, I believethat there is a capacity to
heal through those.
And there's a capacity to usecoaching as a healing modality
as well.
So when we when we can connectthe dots, when we can see how we
serve and how we heal and howwe use our unique gifts and
talents and spirit to do that,then all of a sudden, it doesn't
(21:26):
feel like a huge pivot.
We're not moving from onecareer to an entirely separate
one.
It's more this is just kind ofthe next bead on the thread.
We're just taking what we'vealways done and we're applying
it in a slightly differentenvironment.
And then all of a sudden, itbecomes like a natural
progression.
And to me, that just brings agreater sense of ease to the
(21:50):
process as well.
You don't have to abandoneverything that you did before,
everything you were.
In fact, please don't bring itwith you because that will
enrich your.
Experience, whether you're acoach or whether you're moving
into an entirely differentcareer.
What you've done so far informswhat you will continue to do.
Merilyn (22:10):
It's more like an evolution rather than a career
change, isn't it?
We've got to think outside ofthe that corporate lexicon that
we're that you know we're soversed in.
Lee (22:23):
That's exactly right.
And and I know too, like when Iwhen I was a kid, I thought I
was going to be fill in theblank, like a career.
What do you want to be when yougrow up?
And it was one option.
Like you there were manyoptions, but you only gave one.
Um, and I think we're movinginto a space now where people
understand that I'm not surehumans are really wired that
(22:43):
way.
Maybe some are, but somearen't.
And so maybe it's well, for thefirst phase of my career, this
is what I'm gonna focus on.
And so we're starting to giveourselves permission to be
multipassionate, to havedifferent goals and different
desires.
And that can show up in ourcareers.
It doesn't have to, though.
I think it's also possible toselect one career, be very
(23:05):
satisfied with it, and then haveother things where we pour into
our creative energy, um,hobbies, family, and so forth.
But I think really it's aboutfinding the ways that we can
seek personal fulfillment whilestill being of service to others
and improving the world.
And for me, I was able to findthat through coaching.
Merilyn (23:23):
I would love that question for kids to change.
And it probably will in timefrom uh what do you want to do
when you grow up?
It's what do you want to be?
Like what what's your coreessence?
What do you want to be in theworld?
I think that would help shapethose little minds.
But I think they're gonna getthere anyway, aren't they?
(23:43):
Kids are kids are going thatdirection, they're just
different.
Do you find it?
Lee (23:49):
Well, and when we follow them, I do.
I I actually think because I Iremember actually a very vivid
memory of one of my, I must havebeen five or six, and one of my
classmates saying that shewanted to be like a ballerina
cowboy astronaut.
Like that was what she wantedto be when she grew up.
So she had already kind offigured out this multi
passionate thing.
And she and I do remember theteacher saying, Oh, well, that's
(24:09):
really sweet, but you knowyou're gonna have to just choose
one.
And yes, and so it's like, ohno, we this is this is where we
need to follow that initialinstinct and not not like
squelch these children'simaginations.
And actually, maybe we can takeinspiration from that as well.
So I agree with you.
I think um, and I fall intothis trap as well.
(24:31):
It's so easy to define who weare by what we do, uh, the roles
that we play.
I'm I'm a spouse, I'm a mother,I'm a father, I'm a sister, I'm
a fill, you know, and that itbecomes a shorthand to describe
a part of ourselves, but it'snot who we are in our entirety.
And so when we start thinkingabout the deeper elements of our
(24:54):
identity, not just the roles weplay, but who we really are,
that's where the juicy work is.
And and that is what I what Ilove exploring um with client,
with anyone who'll talk to meabout it, really.
I just find it fascinating.
Merilyn (25:10):
Lee, what's different about your coaching?
I mean, there's millions ofcoaches now.
What's different about yours?
And maybe you want to weave inthat 3M thing, which I know what
it is, and it's fantastic, butyou can squeeze it in.
But yeah, let's start it.
Like, what's what's so wowabout your style of coaching or
your methodology or even whatyou bring to clients?
Lee (25:32):
I think what sets me apart is my ability to really embrace
uh the importance of strategy,of frameworks, of having a
system and a way to do things,while also leaving room for the
magic and respecting the factthat a coach's greatest tool is
(25:53):
themselves.
It's what they bring to thetable.
It's how they view andimplement those frameworks and
strategies and so forth.
And so instead of simplysaying, here's a coaching
methodology, here's a framework,here's how you ask the
questions, okay, do it.
It's more like, okay, here'shere's a framework, here's some
guidelines.
How do you want to use it?
(26:13):
How will you implement it?
What will you change and shiftso that it reflects the way you
create relationships withpeople, the way you support your
clients?
So for me, it's very much we wetalk in coaching about making
it client-centered with thetraining program.
I want it student-centered.
I want each student to feellike they have a voice in
(26:34):
creating their own coachingapproach and that they can use
what I'm offering them asinspiration, as springboards.
And when we're new coaches, alot of times we do rely on those
frameworks because we need topractice, we need to find our
comfort zone.
And then let's expand that.
Let's let's give you permissionto make it yours.
So I like to think that that'ssomething that that sets me
apart.
The fact that I really honorwhat each individual student
(26:58):
brings and I recognize theirability to take what I have and
expand it and improve it andmake it their own.
What's the three M's?
So the three M's, I'll we'llwe'll we'll uh we'll get the
mystery out of the way up front.
They stand for meaning,mindset, and mindfulness.
And it's my take on thefundamental pillars of
(27:20):
acceptance and commitmenttherapy, or ACT.
That was the um thepsychological framework that I
was trained in when I was atherapist.
But the beautiful thing aboutACT is even though it was
initially developed as atherapeutic modality, the core
principles are universallyapplicable.
And in fact, when I was goingthrough my traineeship, uh, it
was 2009.
(27:42):
I just had my second baby.
I was, it was, it was awhirlwind.
And I remember my mentorsaying, if you are going to do
this work with your clients, youhave to be willing to do the
work yourself.
And so part of my training,yeah, I mean, it blew me away.
And so part of my traineeshipwas not just studying ACT, but
applying it, doing the work,doing the exercises, making sure
(28:03):
that I wasn't asking my clientsto do anything I hadn't already
done myself.
And I really do look at my lifeas before ACT and after act.
It was that life-changing,truly.
And as wonderful as ACT is,because it's a psychological
modality, there is a lot ofjargon, a lot of big, long,
unnecessary language that isconfusing to clients.
(28:26):
It's confusing to clinicians.
So when I thought about how Ican bring these beautiful
principles into the businessspace, into entrepreneurship,
into coaching, I wanted tocreate my own lexicon to
translate it so that it was alittle more user-friendly, a
little more directly applicable.
And so that's where the 3Mscame in.
The 3Ms is my take on what ACTreally talks about.
(28:49):
So meaning is very much aboutcore values, what you stand for,
what you believe in, and howthose values inform the actions
you take.
Mindset is very much about ourinternal processes and how we
relate to our internalexperiences.
So that includes thoughts.
It also includes emotions andsensations and memories and all
(29:11):
of those things.
And then mindfulness, ofcourse, is how we connect to the
present moment and how weapproach ourselves and others
and our work from a place ofnon-attachment from not with
non-judgment and reallygrounding in the here and now.
Merilyn (29:26):
I think you should add a fourth M.
Lee (29:29):
Okay.
Merilyn (29:30):
Magic, because you were talking about that before.
Lee (29:32):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
Find the magic in what you do,yeah.
That's thank you for that.
And I I think that I think thatdoes kind of weave the two M's
together, too.
Merilyn (29:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Lee (29:45):
What a beautiful thing.
Merilyn (29:48):
And I love that word.
I think it's great.
Lee (29:50):
Oh, I think we've just experienced another expansion.
Merilyn (29:55):
Do you feel that in your solar plexus?
Lee (29:57):
I do, I do.
It's like a click.
Oh, it's beautiful.
Merilyn (30:02):
Yeah, oh, that's great.
I've gone way off track.
Where's my most of myquestions?
Lee (30:08):
It's been so fun though.
I've loved it.
Merilyn (30:10):
Oh, good.
Lee, there's so much in thenews.
And look, honestly, overhistory, if we had social media,
we probably would be saying thesame thing.
You know, it's just that wehave a front row seat now.
But there is a big shakeup.
It's probably the biggestshakeup we've ever had in our
lifetimes.
(30:31):
And it's all happening at once.
What breaks your heart mostabout the world and what would
you change?
Lee (30:37):
Oh goodness.
Um, I have been sitting withthat a lot today.
Um, actually, to be perfectlyhonest with you, um, it's been
very much on my heart todaybecause the town that I'm in, we
experienced a shooting today.
Oh, it's a rel it's arelatively small town, 35,000
people.
The shooting literally happenedone block from where I am right
(30:57):
now.
Um, and so for me, all of asudden, everything that we've
been talking about, certainly inthe United States, but I think
it's really a larger globalconversation around human
rights, around gun control,around safety and security and
freedom and liberty, like itcame home literally for me
today.
So this has been on my mind andmy heart all day today.
(31:21):
I think um I what saddens me isthat I feel as if we are more
fractured than ever before, thatthere really is a divisiveness
that's happening.
And whenever that happens, Ialways have to ask the question
like, who benefits from this?
(31:42):
Like what's going on here?
Who's who's promoting thesethese fractures and this
separation?
And to what end?
And then when we can kind offigure out like why this is
happening and and who benefits,then, and this is where the hope
comes in.
I promise I'm getting to thehopeful part, then we can
counteract it.
Then we can say, all right, wewe see who and what and why.
(32:05):
Now, how do we want to respondto that?
And again, this is where thosechoice points come in.
So when we can bring thatmindfulness, when we can look at
things with a sense ofobjectivity, and let me tell
you, it is very hard to beobjective when you are talking
about school shootings and gunviolence and women's rights.
And and so please understand, Idon't mean to minimize the
(32:26):
emotional impact of any of that.
That is true and vital and hasa place.
And there is a time where wecan step back and take that
perspective and say, what can welearn here?
Where do we need to go?
What can this teach us?
And then how can we moveforward in a way that doesn't
promote divisiveness, butinstead really looks for those
(32:47):
unifying moments, thoseopportunities for connection.
Uh, I'll be honest, some daysit's easier to see those
connection points than others,but I really believe they're
there.
I have to, or else I wouldn'tbe doing this work.
Merilyn (33:00):
These things are bringing up these conversations,
aren't they?
And they're they can be reallypolarizing as well, if which
side you're on, or if there's aside.
But I think it's bringing it'swaking people up to the
conversation rather than justthis apathy that we often have
(33:23):
been in for maybe decades.
Lee (33:27):
I think, yeah, I think you're exactly right.
And I think also we are on theprecipice of something new.
Like we are seeing a hugeprecipitating shift.
It is.
And I can't help but thinkabout if this is a birth or a
rebirth, something wants to beborn, something, something's
coming anew.
Well, the birthing process ishard.
(33:48):
Anyone out there who has everlabored and birthed a child can
speak to how hard and howpainful it is.
And literally the human bodyhas to expand and grow and shift
to allow this to come forward.
And so part of me can't helpbut wonder if we aren't
experiencing the labor pains ofwhatever is about to be born.
Merilyn (34:12):
Yeah.
Lee (34:12):
And when we view it from that perspective, then we don't
have to minimize or erase orgaslight away the emotions.
Those are vital and valid andthey're there.
And it can lead to somethingelse.
I I hope it does.
That's my hope.
Merilyn (34:28):
I hundred percent agree with you, and I think that's
what's happening.
It doesn't minimize theindividual pain that's there and
and the and the human storythat's there, but it's yeah,
there is something globally ashumanity that that is being
birthed, and it's messy.
It's messy in the process,isn't it?
Lee (34:49):
It is, it is, and and so to take that metaphor one step
further, I think there are manyof us who are being called to be
those birth workers, to be thedoulas, to be the midwives, to
bring this next iteration of ourculture into being.
Merilyn (35:06):
Yeah.
Lee (35:07):
Um and and and so, yeah, so if we can tap into that, if we
can listen to that inner voice,because that has a role to play
in all of this, then you know,my greatest hope is that we can
navigate through this painfultransition into whatever's
coming next.
Merilyn (35:24):
I love that.
I know in my 20s, I I had thisvery strange sense of doing
something important for theworld, but not until I was near
60.
It was this sense that it'sjust there's things happening in
the world, isn't it weird?
And I just and as I'm nearing60, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I
(35:49):
remember that.
And I think, and more and morepeople are talking like that.
And there's it's like we'rewaiting.
Well, it's yeah, it's coming.
Lee (35:57):
And what a beautiful example of your intuition, your
inner wisdom, always knowingthat that was true.
And so it it makes perfectsense that that's what you're
experiencing now.
It's because it is your truth,your capital T truth.
Merilyn (36:10):
Yeah, it's true.
And there was nothing I coulddo about it.
I couldn't change the timing, Icouldn't make it happen.
I just had to live life untilthat's that's happening.
And yeah, only if I could havea small part to play, that that
will that will be my magic.
Lee (36:27):
Yes, yes.
Oh, I love that.
That's exactly right.
Merilyn (36:32):
Oh, Lee, this has been a really refreshing
conversation.
I would like to know, you sayin 200 years' time, what would
you like?
And you know, there's lots oftalk about legacy, but I'm I'm
not really going there.
But what would you like to havebeen remembered for, or what
(36:54):
would you have liked to put intothe world and still have an
effect in 200 years' time?
Lee (37:01):
Oh my gosh, that's one of the best questions I've ever
been asked.
So I think in 200 years, if Icould look back and think that
what I have contributed to theworld, whether it's through my
content, the books or podcastsor whatever, or through the
lives that I've touched, thatthat ripple effect is continuing
to ripple through thegenerations.
(37:22):
So that if I've helped someonecreate change in their life,
then that's created change intheir lineage.
And if something that I've putout in the world has has changed
someone's perspective, causedthem to relate to someone
differently.
And so then that domino fallsand it's continuing to fall down
the generations.
To me, that that is thegreatest expression of legacy
(37:47):
for me, knowing that just theselittle, these little stones that
I'm dropping in the river thatare causing the ripples, those
ripples will continue andcontinue and expand and expand
200 years and then some.
Merilyn (38:01):
Oh, believe it.
I mean, there is this uh theorygoing around, and we don't know
whether it's completely true,but the 3.5% theory, if you
heard that, only takes 3.5% tocreate a revolution.
Researched peaceful protestsaround the world and seen the
change it's made, and she goesdown to it only takes 3.5%.
So when you go right down, I'vefigured out that only it's one
(38:24):
person affecting 15 that thenaffects it, has that little
effect you can change the worldwith one person.
It's completely positive.
So I love that because it'ssuch a message.
Let's forget the maths, butit's a message of hope that
winners actually can impact theworld in 200 years' time might
(38:45):
be different species.
Lee (38:48):
Yes, what a what a hopeful message, and I think that's
really what we all need rightnow.
The reminder that we need hope.
We do, and and and we don't itcertainly there are some people
who are born to create massivechange on a global scale.
But I also think that there'svalue in going local, in
creating change on your locallevel, yes, where you can see
(39:11):
that come to fruition ideally inyour lifetime.
So, and if we're all focused oncreating local change, that's
gonna add up to create globalchange.
Merilyn (39:19):
Absolutely, because exponentially it goes, doesn't
it?
Oh ladies, this has been sorefreshing.
I love it.
Thank you so much.
I wish you all the best increating your little revolution
of wow in the world.
Lee (39:35):
Thank you so much.
Merilyn (39:38):
Oh, it was lovely.
Lee (39:39):
What a wonderful conversation.
Oh my goodness, I enjoyed it somuch.
Merilyn (39:43):
Did you love Lee as much as I did?
You can help spread the wow bysharing this episode with
someone who came to mind perhapswhilst you were listening, and
going to the Apple Podcast andgiving the show a great rating.
And to step more fully intoyour own personal wow and grow
(40:04):
wild.
Join us in my Tool PoppySociety online club.
Go to Merliyn.com for all thedetails.
I'd love to see you there.
Hello there, and welcome to my show.
I'm Merilyn, and in today'sepisode, I'm chatting with the
incredible Lee Chaix McDonough.
Lee (00:08):
Oftentimes what I find is when people excel in an area,
especially if they tend to bethose kind of big visionary
thinkers, it's so easy to seewhat's possible and what you can
create and what you can become.
But then you see where you arenow, and the chasm between the
two feels so wide.
And the thought of crossingthat becomes overwhelming.
(00:30):
And that's where we start todoubt ourselves.
And the anxiety and the fearand the sadness come in.
Merilyn (00:36):
Lee is a psychotherapist who created an
organization called Coach withClarity that supports coaches,
intuitives, and healingprofessionals in business
skills.
It's a deep, inspiring,hope-filled conversation.
Let's go.
Welcome to the show, Lee.
Lee (00:57):
I am so glad to be here.
Thank you for having me,Merilyn.
Merilyn (01:00):
So Lee, you weren't always a coach, but you are now.
You come from psychotherapybackground and a social worker
background.
So always people helpingpeople.
When did you know?
At what stage of your life didyou know that you were kind of
born to help people in whateveraspect that is?
Lee (01:19):
I think that's something that I always knew from a very
young age.
I was definitely mommy's littlehelper.
I was five when my youngestbrother was born.
I remember him being born.
I remember him coming home andwanting to take care of him.
So I do think at a very youngage, yes, that yes, that
instinct to help others wasthere.
And then of course, as I grew,it took shape in different
(01:42):
forms.
Honestly, some of them notmaybe so healthy in terms of
some of my friendships and earlyrelationships in my teens and
20s.
Um, and so I had to learn whatit meant to be a helper and to
support others withoutsacrificing myself at the same
time.
Merilyn (01:57):
Which is often that archetype of helper server is
very much over-self-sacrificing,aren't they?
Lee (02:06):
Yes.
Merilyn (02:07):
What made you decide to take that jump or that leap
from the public uh public careand psychotherapy into coaching?
And you're also very highlyqualified coach as well.
Lee (02:21):
Oh, well, thank you.
Yes.
Uh, and I have to tell you, ifyou had told me six or seven
years ago that I would be acoach running my own business, I
would have laughed because thatwas nowhere in my trajectory,
truly.
I went into mental health, Ibecame a psychotherapist.
I really thought that was goingto be my life's work.
And, you know, I mean, 12, 15years is a good amount of time
(02:44):
to do something.
But um, in 2015, my husband gotout of the United States Air
Force.
He was serving in the military.
We had been stationed overseasin Germany for four years.
It was a wonderful experience.
And then we moved back to theStates and we had two children
who had essentially grown up inEurope.
My husband was going frommilitary to civilian life.
(03:05):
He bought a dental practicebecause he's a dentist.
Big changes, yes.
And so I pressed pause on mycareer so that I could help my
family navigate that transition.
And it was a little less than ayear when I started getting the
itch to return to some sort ofprofessional involvement.
And yet I also knew there wasthis little voice inside me that
(03:28):
said, uh, mental health is notreally where you're called to be
anymore.
Which, to be honest with you,is a very scary place to be
because this had been my wholecareer.
This is what I'd known.
So much of my identity wasconnected to being a social
worker and a public healthprofessional and a therapist.
So if I wasn't those things,what was I?
(03:50):
And while all of this was goingon, my husband was navigating
being both a periodontist, so aclinician, and a business owner.
And I was supporting him in thepractice, and we both realized
quickly that our professionaleducation and experience did not
prepare us for the businessside of things.
And it was so true.
Merilyn (04:10):
It's so true.
Lee (04:13):
Dental school didn't teach him how to own a dental
practice, and a social workschool didn't teach me how to
own a private practice either.
So we had a lot of on-the-jobtraining, a lot of figuring
things out as we went.
It was a very stressful period.
And I remember thinking, Ireally wish there were someone
out there who could have helpedus navigate this from a
(04:33):
strategic position, like what weshould do, but also how do we
handle all of the mindset stuffthat comes up?
The I don't know what I'mdoing.
Who am I?
Yes, yes.
And so when I actually did alittle research around that,
that's when I discoveredcoaching.
And I thought, oh, oh, there'sthis, there's this whole world
out there that I was completelyunfamiliar with.
(04:56):
And the more I looked into it,the more that little voice
inside said, This is it.
This is your next step.
And so I took a leap of faithand I said, All right, I'm I'm
gonna do that.
And if I'm gonna do this, I'mgonna do this.
And so I enrolled in a coachtraining program.
I got my credential through theInternational Coaching
Federation.
I started my own business.
And, you know, over the lastsix years, it's evolved into
(05:19):
what is now largely a trainingand education company for life
and business coaches so that Ican help other people on their
journey as well.
Merilyn (05:27):
Oh, that's so good.
Two things I would love to drawto just draw the thread out a
little bit is uh the first thingis that little voice inside.
Tell us about that becausethat's so beautiful that you
listen to that.
Was that in your head?
Was that in your gut?
Was that in your heart?
And why do we sometimes fightthat voice that's there?
(05:52):
Or people say, I can't hearthat voice.
Lee (05:55):
Yes.
Merilyn (05:56):
What's your experience?
Lee (05:57):
I my I I view that voice.
I think there's many names forthat voice.
Some people call it intuitionor inner wisdom or your gut
feeling.
I think it's a gift that we allhave as humans.
I think we all have access tothat.
Some of us are more comfortableor or have more practice
listening to it.
But I know for me, it's beenpresent throughout my entire
(06:18):
life.
Um, just a sense of knowing,even if there wasn't physical
evidence to confirm it, I wouldjust know something.
And I also learned that when Iwent against that little voice,
I usually paid the price.
There were there were someconsequences there.
So it's taken me some time andsome rough lessons to learn that
(06:40):
that voice, that's my innercompass.
And so when I can tune into itand allow it a seat at the
decision-making table, I'mbetter for it.
And um it shows up in differentways for me, but I I think I
get a very deep knowing in mysolar plexus.
It's almost like somethinglands, it's a feeling of just
(07:03):
grounding and security.
And like if I could make asound, it would just be like it
just locks in.
And so when I get that sense, Iknow this is something to pay
attention to.
And when I was exploringcoaching, that was certainly one
of those moments where I hadthat landing feeling, even
though it didn't necessarilymake sense on a cerebral level,
(07:26):
even though my mind was reallyquestioning and doubting and had
lots of thoughts about it.
When I got quiet and reallyallowed that inner voice to
speak, I knew that this was theright choice.
Merilyn (07:38):
I love that.
And I I think it's my new pettopic.
I want to explore, it's notnew, but it's been around there.
And I'm like, so many peopleare now talking about it, is
listening into our body.
We've given the brain too muchauthority, haven't we?
And so what often happens ispeople will feel that it might
be their gut or them or theirsolar plexus or their emotions.
(07:58):
But then the brain comes in,well, well, how will that work?
When are you going to do that?
And it's we often just listento that brain, don't we?
As a psychotherapist, what anda coach around mindset, what do
you can you expand that on forme?
Lee (08:15):
Yes.
And so the way that I like toview this is that our mind is
doing its job.
Our mind is designed to keep ussafe, to keep us whole, to keep
us part of the herd.
And so when we think aboutdoing something that makes us
vulnerable, puts us away fromthe herd, all of a sudden the
(08:37):
mind is like, uh-uh, not safe,come back in.
And it's going to do whateverit needs to to bring us back in.
And for many of us, that's therole of the inner critic.
That self-doubt, the questions,the unwanted thoughts, it's a
very powerful and ofteneffective way to get us to doubt
ourselves, to change our mind,to change our behavior.
(08:59):
And so I don't blame the mind.
And I've learned to not evenview this as problematic.
Instead, it's simply the minddoing what it's wired to do.
And so when I have thatrecognition, when I have a
thought that gives me thattight, anxious feeling in my
throat, um, I could I can pauseand say, ah, here we go again.
(09:20):
All right, let's check in.
What's really going on here?
And then in that pause, in thatspace where we're able to
separate our identity from thethought and recognize that just
because we're having a thoughtdoesn't mean we have to buy into
that thought.
That's where we have power.
That's where we get to choose.
And we can choose whether it'sa thought that maybe we should
listen to, maybe this is a timeto be safe, or is this a time to
(09:44):
step out and do something bigand brave and bold?
So the mind really it thinksit's doing its job, you know,
and and that's why I thinkbringing a sense of compassion
to to this and understanding isso important, not demonizing
that inner critic, but justsaying, I see you, I see what
you're doing, thank you.
Not needed right now.
Merilyn (10:04):
Oh, that's beautiful, Lee.
And I love asking that questionbecause I know it's something
that comes up a lot with peopleand they have that conflict.
And yeah, the brain is justdoing its job description, isn't
it?
But I love asking it becauseyou know, you hear people
describe that, and sometimes apenny drops more than others.
So I could feel penny drops forfuture listeners listening to
(10:28):
that.
That was so clear.
You mentioned you were livingin Germany, and I'm a big
advocate for I think everyoneshould live overseas at some
stage of their life.
How did you find that?
And often I find uh maybe it'sa stereotype that often um
people, people, US citizens,often don't well, you don't need
(10:50):
to travel, you've got such abig scope, big country.
Uh did you find it was unusualamongst your your peers, your
family, and and what would yousay to that statement that I
said that everyone should liveoverseas?
Lee (11:06):
I agree wholeheartedly.
I think there is such value inputting yourself in a position
where you are in a new cultureand where you're learning from
others and you're appreciatingthat, and you're not coming in
and expecting people to changetheir ways or cater to you, like
to really immerse yourself inanother culture is such a
beautiful way to learn andrespect the world around us.
(11:29):
So I agree with youwholeheartedly.
I loved my time in Germany,loved it.
Now, I will admit that becausewe were there as part of an Air
Force base, I feel like I hadthe best of both worlds.
We lived off base.
We it was called living on theeconomy.
So we lived in a German town.
We had German landlords, I wentto local German shops and the
(11:50):
grocery store and restaurants,and so I had that piece, but I
also had Little America on base,and that's where I worked.
That's you know, where myhusband worked.
We had we had a community thereas well.
So I do recognize that in manyways I was spoiled because I got
both.
I got to have America andGermany all in one.
But we did a lot of travelingwhile we were there.
(12:11):
It's so easy to travel inEurope because the rail system
is tremendous.
Uh, there's low-cost airlines.
And so we were alwaystraveling.
And I think what I appreciatemost is that my children got to
do that too.
When we moved to Germany, theywere two and four.
So when we came back to theStates, they were six and eight.
So their formative years werespent overseas being a part of
(12:34):
all of these rich traditions inthe dozens of countries that we
went to.
And I like to think it reallyshaped their worldview and it
will help them be better adults,better human beings.
Um, and especially in light ofin the United States, what's
going on politically, it's justso divisive.
And we've really become usagainst them.
(12:54):
And I really think that travelis a way to bridge that gap.
That when you have theexperience of being with other
people and other cultures, youit it keeps you from your, it
keeps your thinking from beingtoo myopic.
And so I agree that if youcan't live overseas, at least
travel because it's just goingto expand your worldview.
And I think that is that is thepath back to to deeper
(13:16):
connections.
Merilyn (13:18):
You mentioned before that you you're a highly
qualified woman.
Your husband is a highlyqualified man, but you came
back, and the business side wassomething that it was just
foreign and it plays on yourmind.
So, no matter how educated youmight be, even in your
(13:39):
professional field, going into abusiness is like it's a
completely different beast,isn't it?
Can you talk a little bit more?
And especially to someone who'sfeeling that roller coaster
ride right now, what perhapswhat they could do.
Lee (13:54):
Absolutely.
I just want to acknowledge thatit is a very unique type of
tension when you excel in onearea of your life and you are a
novice in another.
And because you know, well, I'mreally good at this one thing.
Like, I know what I'm doing.
I'm smart, I've got thecredentials, I've got the
experience.
Like, look at this.
But wow, when it comes to thisother area, I have no idea what
(14:15):
I'm doing.
That is a very uncomfortableplace to be.
Uh, for some people, it comesout with anxiety, others with
anger, some with depression.
So it can be a heavy, hard roadto navigate.
And so I just want to start bysaying if if you're feeling that
way, you're not alone.
And I would even say it'snormal.
(14:36):
Because oftentimes what I findis when people excel in an area,
especially if they tend to bethose kind of big visionary
thinkers, it's so easy to seewhat's possible and what you can
create and what you can become.
But then you see where you arenow, and the chasm between the
two feels so wide.
And the thought of crossingthat becomes overwhelming.
(14:59):
And that's where we start todoubt ourselves.
And the anxiety and the fearand the sadness come in.
So that's something that Iactually see quite a lot with
some of my private coachingclients who are making a
transition from one career intoanother, and they're having to
not start over, but they arehaving to learn some new skills
and some new strategies.
(15:19):
And it's hard being a novice.
It's it's hard to do somethingnew.
Um, and that's where, and I'mI'm sure you're familiar too
with the concept of thebeginner's mind, of actually
welcoming that, of saying, Idon't have to know all of the
things right now.
I'm not supposed to know all ofthe things right now.
It's okay for me to be in thisin this beginner spot and to
(15:40):
learn and to learn througherrors and and to refine and do
better next time.
Uh, and eventually I will gainthat mastery.
I've done it once before, Iknow I can do it again.
Merilyn (15:53):
And for some people, it's not a lineal, linear path,
is it?
They can you find, especiallyif they move careers or move
into their own business later inlife, it's not just a lot of
this thinking of I've got to goback to the beginning again, but
it's not.
They can leapfrog stages, can'tthey?
Lee (16:12):
Absolutely.
There is so much that you cantake from your earlier
experiences, your earliercareer, and leverage that into
what you're doing now.
So much of what you've learnedand experienced translates.
I think um, you know, I sawthis funny meme once where it
was like, How I think my lifeshould go, and it was like a
straight line up, and it was howmy life actually goes and it
(16:32):
was right, a whole mess.
What I have what I have found,especially in business, is that
actually it's more like acorkscrew that's heading up.
But because it's a corkscrew,we have those periods of time
where we regress.
It feels like we're headingdown, it feels like we're going
backwards, but sometimes we needto do that to springboard us
into our next cycle ofevolution, our next growth.
(16:56):
And so I frequently remindmyself of that when I hit those
moments where I feel like I'mgoing backwards.
It's like, nope, this is thecorkscrew.
This is this is the retractionbefore I expand.
And so I think that's alsomaybe a helpful thing to
remember when we're feelinglike, oh man, I'm just I'm
stuck, I'm not doing it right.
Nope, this is part of the cycleand this too shall pass.
Merilyn (17:19):
And think of the beautiful bottle of wine you've
just opened.
Lee (17:24):
Corkscrews are good for more than one thing.
Merilyn (17:28):
That uh that phrase, the second act, I know you use,
you know, the great resignationand the great change.
There's so we could see itvisibly in the world.
There's a shakeup happening.
And so many, especially women,are questioning.
Well, no, not especially women.
I think humans are awakening.
Humans are saying, What am Idoing with my life?
(17:51):
I'm don't want to go thistrajectory that I trajectory
that I was on.
I want something with meaning.
I want something with purposeand contribution and that fills
me.
I mean, I call it your wow, youknow, discovering that wow and
following that.
Can you?
I mean, you're an advocate forcoaching.
(18:11):
Is that a good direction totake for people?
Or is it yeah, I'd love yourthoughts on that whole topic
because it's huge.
Lee (18:22):
Yeah, I think, well, and I so many of the people I work
with are kind of in their secondact.
They're they're making atransition, whether into a new
career or a new hobby, sometimesa new relationship.
Um, and and I think that reallyit's about expansion and
fulfillment.
Now, for some people, theydon't necessarily need to switch
(18:43):
jobs or switch towns toexperience expansion and
fulfillment.
They're able to find thatwithin their existing framework.
And if that's the case, likelet's let's go, let's let's dive
in and get deep.
But I do think that many of usare seeing that we want our
careers to be an expression ofwho we are.
(19:04):
And many of us chose ourcareers when we were younger,
18, 22, 25, when we were stillgrowing and we were still
figuring out who we were.
So it makes sense that as weevolve, our career aspirations,
our life goals, they're gonnaevolve as well.
And so if that means pivotingor transitioning in your 30s,
40s, 50s beyond, I don't seethat as a problem.
(19:27):
I don't see it as a bug.
I see it as a feature,actually.
I see it as what we're designedto do.
It's just a part of our of ourgrowth.
Merilyn (19:35):
I love that word expansion too.
It's it's an expansion, notnecessarily a big change, but an
expansion, isn't it?
Lee (19:45):
I think so.
And and you know, expandingmeans we are we are growing.
And that means that we'repushing against the the barriers
that we've held for ourselves,those, those boundaries.
And and that can be painful.
There, there can be there canbe a difficult moment in that
expansion.
There can be fear, there can beuncertainty.
(20:06):
Um and I don't, again, I don'tsee that as a as a negative
thing.
It's just part of the process.
And when we see that, when wenormalize it, then all of a
sudden it doesn't feel so scary.
Merilyn (20:18):
I noticed a quote on your website and I love it.
I'm gonna read it out.
Your training experience andhealing spirit are completely
transferable to the world ofcoaching.
You already have many of thetools you need to coach your
clients.
I've not seen that phrasehealing spirit before.
Why...
tell us about that?
Lee (20:40):
I find that many of the people that I work with, and and
myself actually, and I suspectyou, on some level, we are
healers.
We are here to heal perhapsindividuals, but maybe heal the
world.
Um, and and we do that throughservice.
And so even if we're not inhealthcare or mental health,
even if we're attorneys orteachers or other types of
(21:02):
service professionals, I believethat there is a capacity to
heal through those.
And there's a capacity to usecoaching as a healing modality
as well.
So when we when we can connectthe dots, when we can see how we
serve and how we heal and howwe use our unique gifts and
talents and spirit to do that,then all of a sudden, it doesn't
(21:26):
feel like a huge pivot.
We're not moving from onecareer to an entirely separate
one.
It's more this is just kind ofthe next bead on the thread.
We're just taking what we'vealways done and we're applying
it in a slightly differentenvironment.
And then all of a sudden, itbecomes like a natural
progression.
And to me, that just brings agreater sense of ease to the
(21:50):
process as well.
You don't have to abandoneverything that you did before,
everything you were.
In fact, please don't bring itwith you because that will
enrich your.
Experience, whether you're acoach or whether you're moving
into an entirely differentcareer.
What you've done so far informswhat you will continue to do.
Merilyn (22:10):
It's more like an evolution rather than a career
change, isn't it?
We've got to think outside ofthe that corporate lexicon that
we're that you know we're soversed in.
Lee (22:23):
That's exactly right.
And and I know too, like when Iwhen I was a kid, I thought I
was going to be fill in theblank, like a career.
What do you want to be when yougrow up?
And it was one option.
Like you there were manyoptions, but you only gave one.
Um, and I think we're movinginto a space now where people
understand that I'm not surehumans are really wired that
(22:43):
way.
Maybe some are, but somearen't.
And so maybe it's well, for thefirst phase of my career, this
is what I'm gonna focus on.
And so we're starting to giveourselves permission to be
multipassionate, to havedifferent goals and different
desires.
And that can show up in ourcareers.
It doesn't have to, though.
I think it's also possible toselect one career, be very
(23:05):
satisfied with it, and then haveother things where we pour into
our creative energy, um,hobbies, family, and so forth.
But I think really it's aboutfinding the ways that we can
seek personal fulfillment whilestill being of service to others
and improving the world.
And for me, I was able to findthat through coaching.
Merilyn (23:23):
I would love that question for kids to change.
And it probably will in timefrom uh what do you want to do
when you grow up?
It's what do you want to be?
Like what what's your coreessence?
What do you want to be in theworld?
I think that would help shapethose little minds.
But I think they're gonna getthere anyway, aren't they?
(23:43):
Kids are kids are going thatdirection, they're just
different.
Do you find it?
Lee (23:49):
Well, and when we follow them, I do.
I I actually think because I Iremember actually a very vivid
memory of one of my, I must havebeen five or six, and one of my
classmates saying that shewanted to be like a ballerina
cowboy astronaut.
Like that was what she wantedto be when she grew up.
So she had already kind offigured out this multi
passionate thing.
And she and I do remember theteacher saying, Oh, well, that's
(24:09):
really sweet, but you knowyou're gonna have to just choose
one.
And yes, and so it's like, ohno, we this is this is where we
need to follow that initialinstinct and not not like
squelch these children'simaginations.
And actually, maybe we can takeinspiration from that as well.
So I agree with you.
I think um, and I fall intothis trap as well.
(24:31):
It's so easy to define who weare by what we do, uh, the roles
that we play.
I'm I'm a spouse, I'm a mother,I'm a father, I'm a sister, I'm
a fill, you know, and that itbecomes a shorthand to describe
a part of ourselves, but it'snot who we are in our entirety.
And so when we start thinkingabout the deeper elements of our
(24:54):
identity, not just the roles weplay, but who we really are,
that's where the juicy work is.
And and that is what I what Ilove exploring um with client,
with anyone who'll talk to meabout it, really.
I just find it fascinating.
Merilyn (25:10):
Lee, what's different about your coaching?
I mean, there's millions ofcoaches now.
What's different about yours?
And maybe you want to weave inthat 3M thing, which I know what
it is, and it's fantastic, butyou can squeeze it in.
But yeah, let's start it.
Like, what's what's so wowabout your style of coaching or
your methodology or even whatyou bring to clients?
Lee (25:32):
I think what sets me apart is my ability to really embrace
uh the importance of strategy,of frameworks, of having a
system and a way to do things,while also leaving room for the
magic and respecting the factthat a coach's greatest tool is
(25:53):
themselves.
It's what they bring to thetable.
It's how they view andimplement those frameworks and
strategies and so forth.
And so instead of simplysaying, here's a coaching
methodology, here's a framework,here's how you ask the
questions, okay, do it.
It's more like, okay, here'shere's a framework, here's some
guidelines.
How do you want to use it?
(26:13):
How will you implement it?
What will you change and shiftso that it reflects the way you
create relationships withpeople, the way you support your
clients?
So for me, it's very much we wetalk in coaching about making
it client-centered with thetraining program.
I want it student-centered.
I want each student to feellike they have a voice in
(26:34):
creating their own coachingapproach and that they can use
what I'm offering them asinspiration, as springboards.
And when we're new coaches, alot of times we do rely on those
frameworks because we need topractice, we need to find our
comfort zone.
And then let's expand that.
Let's let's give you permissionto make it yours.
So I like to think that that'ssomething that that sets me
apart.
The fact that I really honorwhat each individual student
(26:58):
brings and I recognize theirability to take what I have and
expand it and improve it andmake it their own.
What's the three M's?
So the three M's, I'll we'llwe'll we'll uh we'll get the
mystery out of the way up front.
They stand for meaning,mindset, and mindfulness.
And it's my take on thefundamental pillars of
(27:20):
acceptance and commitmenttherapy, or ACT.
That was the um thepsychological framework that I
was trained in when I was atherapist.
But the beautiful thing aboutACT is even though it was
initially developed as atherapeutic modality, the core
principles are universallyapplicable.
And in fact, when I was goingthrough my traineeship, uh, it
was 2009.
(27:42):
I just had my second baby.
I was, it was, it was awhirlwind.
And I remember my mentorsaying, if you are going to do
this work with your clients, youhave to be willing to do the
work yourself.
And so part of my training,yeah, I mean, it blew me away.
And so part of my traineeshipwas not just studying ACT, but
applying it, doing the work,doing the exercises, making sure
(28:03):
that I wasn't asking my clientsto do anything I hadn't already
done myself.
And I really do look at my lifeas before ACT and after act.
It was that life-changing,truly.
And as wonderful as ACT is,because it's a psychological
modality, there is a lot ofjargon, a lot of big, long,
unnecessary language that isconfusing to clients.
(28:26):
It's confusing to clinicians.
So when I thought about how Ican bring these beautiful
principles into the businessspace, into entrepreneurship,
into coaching, I wanted tocreate my own lexicon to
translate it so that it was alittle more user-friendly, a
little more directly applicable.
And so that's where the 3Mscame in.
The 3Ms is my take on what ACTreally talks about.
(28:49):
So meaning is very much aboutcore values, what you stand for,
what you believe in, and howthose values inform the actions
you take.
Mindset is very much about ourinternal processes and how we
relate to our internalexperiences.
So that includes thoughts.
It also includes emotions andsensations and memories and all
(29:11):
of those things.
And then mindfulness, ofcourse, is how we connect to the
present moment and how weapproach ourselves and others
and our work from a place ofnon-attachment from not with
non-judgment and reallygrounding in the here and now.
Merilyn (29:26):
I think you should add a fourth M.
Lee (29:29):
Okay.
Merilyn (29:30):
Magic, because you were talking about that before.
Lee (29:32):
Oh, I love that.
I love that.
Find the magic in what you do,yeah.
That's thank you for that.
And I I think that I think thatdoes kind of weave the two M's
together, too.
Merilyn (29:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Lee (29:45):
What a beautiful thing.
Merilyn (29:48):
And I love that word.
I think it's great.
Lee (29:50):
Oh, I think we've just experienced another expansion.
Merilyn (29:55):
Do you feel that in your solar plexus?
Lee (29:57):
I do, I do.
It's like a click.
Oh, it's beautiful.
Merilyn (30:02):
Yeah, oh, that's great.
I've gone way off track.
Where's my most of myquestions?
Lee (30:08):
It's been so fun though.
I've loved it.
Merilyn (30:10):
Oh, good.
Lee, there's so much in thenews.
And look, honestly, overhistory, if we had social media,
we probably would be saying thesame thing.
You know, it's just that wehave a front row seat now.
But there is a big shakeup.
It's probably the biggestshakeup we've ever had in our
lifetimes.
(30:31):
And it's all happening at once.
What breaks your heart mostabout the world and what would
you change?
Lee (30:37):
Oh goodness.
Um, I have been sitting withthat a lot today.
Um, actually, to be perfectlyhonest with you, um, it's been
very much on my heart todaybecause the town that I'm in, we
experienced a shooting today.
Oh, it's a rel it's arelatively small town, 35,000
people.
The shooting literally happenedone block from where I am right
(30:57):
now.
Um, and so for me, all of asudden, everything that we've
been talking about, certainly inthe United States, but I think
it's really a larger globalconversation around human
rights, around gun control,around safety and security and
freedom and liberty, like itcame home literally for me
today.
So this has been on my mind andmy heart all day today.
(31:21):
I think um I what saddens me isthat I feel as if we are more
fractured than ever before, thatthere really is a divisiveness
that's happening.
And whenever that happens, Ialways have to ask the question
like, who benefits from this?
(31:42):
Like what's going on here?
Who's who's promoting thesethese fractures and this
separation?
And to what end?
And then when we can kind offigure out like why this is
happening and and who benefits,then, and this is where the hope
comes in.
I promise I'm getting to thehopeful part, then we can
counteract it.
Then we can say, all right, wewe see who and what and why.
(32:05):
Now, how do we want to respondto that?
And again, this is where thosechoice points come in.
So when we can bring thatmindfulness, when we can look at
things with a sense ofobjectivity, and let me tell
you, it is very hard to beobjective when you are talking
about school shootings and gunviolence and women's rights.
And and so please understand, Idon't mean to minimize the
(32:26):
emotional impact of any of that.
That is true and vital and hasa place.
And there is a time where wecan step back and take that
perspective and say, what can welearn here?
Where do we need to go?
What can this teach us?
And then how can we moveforward in a way that doesn't
promote divisiveness, butinstead really looks for those
(32:47):
unifying moments, thoseopportunities for connection.
Uh, I'll be honest, some daysit's easier to see those
connection points than others,but I really believe they're
there.
I have to, or else I wouldn'tbe doing this work.
Merilyn (33:00):
These things are bringing up these conversations,
aren't they?
And they're they can be reallypolarizing as well, if which
side you're on, or if there's aside.
But I think it's bringing it'swaking people up to the
conversation rather than justthis apathy that we often have
(33:23):
been in for maybe decades.
Lee (33:27):
I think, yeah, I think you're exactly right.
And I think also we are on theprecipice of something new.
Like we are seeing a hugeprecipitating shift.
It is.
And I can't help but thinkabout if this is a birth or a
rebirth, something wants to beborn, something, something's
coming anew.
Well, the birthing process ishard.
(33:48):
Anyone out there who has everlabored and birthed a child can
speak to how hard and howpainful it is.
And literally the human bodyhas to expand and grow and shift
to allow this to come forward.
And so part of me can't helpbut wonder if we aren't
experiencing the labor pains ofwhatever is about to be born.
Merilyn (34:12):
Yeah.
Lee (34:12):
And when we view it from that perspective, then we don't
have to minimize or erase orgaslight away the emotions.
Those are vital and valid andthey're there.
And it can lead to somethingelse.
I I hope it does.
That's my hope.
Merilyn (34:28):
I hundred percent agree with you, and I think that's
what's happening.
It doesn't minimize theindividual pain that's there and
and the and the human storythat's there, but it's yeah,
there is something globally ashumanity that that is being
birthed, and it's messy.
It's messy in the process,isn't it?
Lee (34:49):
It is, it is, and and so to take that metaphor one step
further, I think there are manyof us who are being called to be
those birth workers, to be thedoulas, to be the midwives, to
bring this next iteration of ourculture into being.
Merilyn (35:06):
Yeah.
Lee (35:07):
Um and and and so, yeah, so if we can tap into that, if we
can listen to that inner voice,because that has a role to play
in all of this, then you know,my greatest hope is that we can
navigate through this painfultransition into whatever's
coming next.
Merilyn (35:24):
I love that.
I know in my 20s, I I had thisvery strange sense of doing
something important for theworld, but not until I was near
60.
It was this sense that it'sjust there's things happening in
the world, isn't it weird?
And I just and as I'm nearing60, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I
(35:49):
remember that.
And I think, and more and morepeople are talking like that.
And there's it's like we'rewaiting.
Well, it's yeah, it's coming.
Lee (35:57):
And what a beautiful example of your intuition, your
inner wisdom, always knowingthat that was true.
And so it it makes perfectsense that that's what you're
experiencing now.
It's because it is your truth,your capital T truth.
Merilyn (36:10):
Yeah, it's true.
And there was nothing I coulddo about it.
I couldn't change the timing, Icouldn't make it happen.
I just had to live life untilthat's that's happening.
And yeah, only if I could havea small part to play, that that
will that will be my magic.
Lee (36:27):
Yes, yes.
Oh, I love that.
That's exactly right.
Merilyn (36:32):
Oh, Lee, this has been a really refreshing
conversation.
I would like to know, you sayin 200 years' time, what would
you like?
And you know, there's lots oftalk about legacy, but I'm I'm
not really going there.
But what would you like to havebeen remembered for, or what
(36:54):
would you have liked to put intothe world and still have an
effect in 200 years' time?
Lee (37:01):
Oh my gosh, that's one of the best questions I've ever
been asked.
So I think in 200 years, if Icould look back and think that
what I have contributed to theworld, whether it's through my
content, the books or podcastsor whatever, or through the
lives that I've touched, thatthat ripple effect is continuing
to ripple through thegenerations.
(37:22):
So that if I've helped someonecreate change in their life,
then that's created change intheir lineage.
And if something that I've putout in the world has has changed
someone's perspective, causedthem to relate to someone
differently.
And so then that domino fallsand it's continuing to fall down
the generations.
To me, that that is thegreatest expression of legacy
(37:47):
for me, knowing that just theselittle, these little stones that
I'm dropping in the river thatare causing the ripples, those
ripples will continue andcontinue and expand and expand
200 years and then some.
Merilyn (38:01):
Oh, believe it.
I mean, there is this uh theorygoing around, and we don't know
whether it's completely true,but the 3.5% theory, if you
heard that, only takes 3.5% tocreate a revolution.
Researched peaceful protestsaround the world and seen the
change it's made, and she goesdown to it only takes 3.5%.
So when you go right down, I'vefigured out that only it's one
(38:24):
person affecting 15 that thenaffects it, has that little
effect you can change the worldwith one person.
It's completely positive.
So I love that because it'ssuch a message.
Let's forget the maths, butit's a message of hope that
winners actually can impact theworld in 200 years' time might
(38:45):
be different species.
Lee (38:48):
Yes, what a what a hopeful message, and I think that's
really what we all need rightnow.
The reminder that we need hope.
We do, and and and we don't itcertainly there are some people
who are born to create massivechange on a global scale.
But I also think that there'svalue in going local, in
creating change on your locallevel, yes, where you can see
(39:11):
that come to fruition ideally inyour lifetime.
So, and if we're all focused oncreating local change, that's
gonna add up to create globalchange.
Merilyn (39:19):
Absolutely, because exponentially it goes, doesn't
it?
Oh ladies, this has been sorefreshing.
I love it.
Thank you so much.
I wish you all the best increating your little revolution
of wow in the world.
Lee (39:35):
Thank you so much.
Merilyn (39:38):
Oh, it was lovely.
Lee (39:39):
What a wonderful conversation.
Oh my goodness, I enjoyed it somuch.
Merilyn (39:43):
Did you love Lee as much as I did?
You can help spread the wow bysharing this episode with
someone who came to mind perhapswhilst you were listening, and
going to the Apple Podcast andgiving the show a great rating.
And to step more fully intoyour own personal wow and grow
(40:04):
wild.
Join us in my Tool PoppySociety online club.
Go to Merliyn.com for all thedetails.
I'd love to see you there.
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