September 2, 2026 • 24 mins
I recorded this conversation several years ago… and never released it. Until now.
It has changed the way I think about exhaustion. Clinical psychologist Emma Gray argues that many of us aren’t just tired- we have become fundamentally disconnected from our own bodies.
If you have ever pushed through deep exhaustion, ignored your instincts, or struggled to know what you actually need, this conversation is for you.
In this episode, we unpack:
- The "Good Girl" Lie: Why women are conditioned to put everyone else first.
- Somatic Disconnection: How your body tries to speak to you before it burns out.
- The Self-Care Fallacy: Why standard rest advice fails when you are truly stuck.
- The 3 Questions: Surprisingly simple prompts to reconnect with your inner wisdom.
This episode is part of I Never Released These... The Lost Tapes, a special 12-part series featuring interviews I recorded between 2022 and 2024 that never made it into the world... until now.
Follow Emma:
Website: emmagray.net https://emmagray.net/
Facebook: @emmagraycoaching
Instagram: emmagray.soulcoach
Follow Merilyn:
Instagram: @merilyn
Website: merilyn.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Merilyn (00:00):
Hey, before we start, this is episode two of 12
conversations I recorded a fewyears back and never released.
Not because of the guests.
The guests were brilliant, butbecause of me.
You'll have to go back andlisten to the previous episode
to hear about that.
This one, today's episode, iswith psychologist Emma Gray.
(00:23):
Now there's one moment in thischat that completely changed the
way I think about burnout.
I won't tell you what it is now, but havea listen and you'll know it
when you hear it.
Who are you and what is it thatyou do?
Emma (00:42):
I am a therapist.
I'm a clinical psychologist bytraining, but have expanded
beyond that into work that I'mreally passionate about, working
with women who are big-hearted,soul-driven, who feel that they
have a big calling.
Merilyn (00:58):
So, what does that look like for your business?
Emma (01:01):
I'm still a registered clinical psychologist, but most
of my work now is in like whatwe would call the coaching
space, either individually doingprivate coaching, or I run
coaching programs and I runretreats.
So working with women torestore their balance, to uh
re-energize themselves, reducestress, reduce overwhelm, feel
(01:23):
more grounded, balanced, Iguess, at all levels of their
being, mental, emotional,physical, spiritual balance,
coming into full alignment withtheir highest values, with what
their heart is really callingthem to do.
So helping them get clarity ifthey don't already have this
around what their strengths are,what their values are, what is
(01:44):
really important to them, howthey want to spend their time,
what they want to do with thisprecious life that we have, so
that they can live their liveswith more joy, with more
fulfillment, with moresatisfaction and feel like, yes,
I really am loving my life.
Obviously, there's no perfectlife, but great if we can say,
yeah, I really love my life.
Merilyn (02:03):
You work with women mainly.
I'd like to know what uniqueblocks or common threads do you
see that us women have?
Why don't we have clarity onthis?
Or is it just that now we'remuch more open to that desire to
want more?
Emma (02:21):
I think we're at a unique time in our history where for
generations we've held thisintergenerational witch wound
trauma, if you like, where wehave across cultures and across
time been oppressed, oppressed,held back, or there hasn't been
equality.
And we're at this reallyspecial time where this isn't
(02:42):
for every woman in everyculture, but certainly where we
are, we have this opportunity toreally reach into ourselves and
really go for our dreams.
We we aren't just here to getmarried and have babies.
And if women want to do that,that's wonderful.
I'm a mom, I love my babiesdearly.
But where we can reach for thestars and get there if we want
(03:04):
to.
So I feel blessed to be able tobe part of that movement, part
of that shift that's happeningright now.
But also, I guess, because ofmy own experience, when I got
married, that was a shock to thesystem.
And I was in a really unhealthyrelationship and felt like I'd
suddenly been transported backto the 1950s, and everything I
(03:25):
knew in my whole world, yeah,everything I knew in my whole
world turned upside down, and Ifelt really disempowered in that
relationship.
I had babies and I wasn'tfinancially independent, and I
felt trapped and it was veryunhealthy, and I completely lost
myself, didn't know how to findmy way out of that, really.
So being in that place ofcomplete loss and burnout, it
(03:49):
really helped me feel compassionfor women in a way that I had
not before.
And as I found my way out ofthat, one of the greatest life
lessons that I learned from thatwas self-care.
Not just have a bubble bath andwalk in nature kind of
self-care, but the strength andthe courage to tune into who we
(04:09):
are and what we really need andset some really strong
boundaries for ourselves aroundthe people, the situations, the
activities, the environmentsthat aren't serving us, that are
depleting us mentally,physically, emotionally,
spiritually.
And to really tune in at everylevel of our being to what
(04:29):
replenishes us, what serves us,what uplifts us.
That's what I mean byself-care, making the courageous
decisions to say yes to thosethings that serve us and no to
those things that don't.
That was a very hard journeyfor me.
I was a self-sacrificing peoplepleaser and I didn't know how
to do that.
I was probably a bit of adoormat or a lot of a doormat.
(04:50):
So it it was a difficult timefor me.
It was my dark night of thesoul, and it took a lot of very
deep soul searching to figureout some of these answers.
Now that I feel that I'mthrough that and out the other
side and I'm living a prettygood life, I just have this.
I was gonna use the wordpassion, but it feels bigger
than that.
It feels like everything thatmakes me feel alive to serve
(05:13):
women, support women, help womenbe here to help those who may
be going through some kind ofchallenge, difficulties, crisis,
some kind of suffering.
And there is a woo-woo soulstory that goes with that as
well.
But that's probably a longanswer to your question,
Merilyn.
Merilyn (05:28):
Let's deal with some of the hard things.
So let's let's tackle the firstone now, self-care.
Why is it that self-care ishard to identify?
Like if someone had said to me20 years ago, self-care, I
probably would have thoughtpampering going to the spa.
Why is this a topic that weshould put on the table and
redefine and help womenunderstand?
Emma (05:51):
We are conditioned in our culture, in our society to put
ourselves last, to work hard, beproductive, do more, the on the
go, on all the time, busy busy.
That goes for all genders.
Before when we were tribalbeings, we went with the ebb and
flow of nature.
We were hunting and gatheringat times and other times sitting
(06:11):
by the campfire and tellingstories and connecting.
But since the IndustrialRevolution, there's been this
nine to five working, but thosenine to five hours have expanded
and expanded.
And with the introduction oftechnology where we're
contactable 24-7, we don't getthat break, we don't get that
time to switch off.
(06:31):
We've become more immersed inour screens, we've come more
disconnected from nature andwhat we naturally need, what our
rhythms are.
But particularly for women,where we are conditioned to be
putting everyone else firstpartners, children, boss,
employees, friends, we areconditioned to be the good girl.
(06:55):
And if we're not being that, ifwe're doing something for
ourselves, we are told or giventhe message that we are selfish,
lazy, self-indulgent.
And so it's really hard for usas women, I'm getting goosebumps
as I say this, to giveourselves permission to practice
self-care, to tune in to whatwe really need, to say no to the
(07:19):
things that are depleting us orharmful for us, and to say yes
to the things that are in ourbest interest.
It's really hard for us to dothat.
We are layered with guilt andanxiety when we start to set
boundaries.
So it's really a disease of ourtime.
Merilyn (07:35):
And it is so built in, isn't it?
I I was aware of it two daysago.
I was making a new dish and Iwas serving it out.
I was watching myself take thesmallest serve, take the serve
that didn't look as good.
But we do that everywhere.
We serve everyone else first,but then we get the leftovers.
Emma (07:55):
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to love and care for the
people around us.
Absolutely.
But by choosing to prioritizeour own well-being, it
replenishes us, re-energizes us,fills us with joy, it fills us
with vitality so that when ourcup is full and flowing, we have
more to give.
(08:16):
We are more present, showing upas a bigger, brighter, better
version of ourselves.
In whatever way we choose toserve, in whatever way lights us
up, if we choose to do that,rather than coming from this
place of resentment or depletionor obligation.
The quality of serving is verydifferent when we come from that
(08:39):
foundation of self-care versusself-denial and self-sacrifice.
And I know that from deeppersonal experience.
Merilyn (08:47):
What has caused us to pass that on generation after
generation?
Emma (08:51):
It's that conditioning that I was talking about and
that disconnection from ournatural rhythms.
But it can shift and it doesn'tneed to take a lot to shift,
actually, Merilyn that thescience shows that the more we
take breaks, the more we taketime out for the self for
ourselves, the more we do thingsthat replenish ourselves,
(09:12):
whether it's five minutes ofdeep breathing or an hour at the
park or yoga practicemeditation, different things for
different people, that changesour biochemistry.
It changes our neurology, itchanges the way our body and
mind functions.
We do feel more spacious, thatyou're not imagining that.
The neuroscience shows that ourstress system, our fight-flight
(09:37):
system starts to deactivate.
And our parasympathetic nervoussystem, which is our relaxation
system, our regeneratingsystem, our rest and digest
replenish systems, activateswhen we give ourselves this time
out.
And when we can do that, thatsystem gives us not just access
to physical vitality and energyand well-being and repairing the
(10:00):
immune system and boostingheart health and all of those
wonderful things, but it givesus access to creative thinking,
innovative thinking, differentways of seeing the world.
It helps us become moreplayful, more lighthearted, to
feel more joyful, more calm,better, brighter versions of
ourselves.
And there is hard science thatbacks that up.
(10:21):
The Altradian rhythms is astudy that shows that we have
this biological requirement forperiods of rest activity, rest
activity, rest activitythroughout the day.
90 minutes of activity, 20minutes of rest, 90 minutes of
activity, 20 minutes of rest.
That's biologically how we'rehardwired to be throughout the
(10:41):
day.
Our body signals will betelling us whether in this
moment we need to rest andreplenish and recharge, or
whether, yeah, we're good to go.
We're energized and it's timeto play, it's time to go and
engage in some activity.
So the signals that our bodyneeds to rest might be that
(11:01):
we're feeling either physicallytired or mentally tired.
We lose energy or lose focusand concentration.
We might start to feeloverwhelmed, feel irritable.
All these are signs that ourbody is sending us that if we've
been thinking and concentratingfor a lot, maybe it's time to
get up and move the body andtake a mental break.
Or if we've been doingsomething physical for a while,
(11:22):
maybe it's time to just sit andchill for a little bit.
And then when we are rested,our body will start to get
restless and we'll start to feellike we've got this surge of
energy, or we get inspiration.
We might get flooded with ideasof things that we want to do,
either mentally, creatively toput our energy into something,
or physically to put our energyinto something.
So our innate body wisdom willtell us in any given moment
(11:47):
which mode do I need to be inright now?
Rest mode or activity mode.
Merilyn (11:53):
I'm so glad you brought this up because I think this is
one of the hard issues.
There's a lot of talk aboutlistening into your body.
Can you demystify that?
Because when I hit that tidewall, I want to watch Netflix or
I go for a walk or somethinglike that.
My brain goes, No, you have tokeep working.
Why do we find that hard?
Can you go a little bit deeperinto listening to the body?
(12:17):
How do we do that?
Because you're amazing at it.
I wasn't always that way. Throughthis period of burnout, clearly
I wasn't listening to my body.
I was completely disconnectedfrom my body and what I needed.
You aptly said, we live fromour neck up, we live in our
heads.
We aren't taught how to reallycheck in with what's happening
(12:37):
from the neck down.
And I can remember the firsttime I went to see a beautiful
therapist and she said to me,What's happening in your body
right now?
And I paused and I felt andsensed into and I said, Nothing.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
I was so dissociated from mybody.
And I used to be a reallyanxious person.
I think that was part of mysurvival mechanism.
(12:58):
I'm a sensitive person, and soI would take on a lot of other
people's stuff.
And the way I coped with thatwas just to disconnect from it.
So I totally understand why,for various reasons, some people
will say, Well, I don'tunderstand what you mean when
you say listen to your body ortune into your body, because I
was certainly in that space.
And it comes with practice.
(13:18):
So I invite my clients toengage in what I call a
self-check-in process, which hastwo questions.
The first question is, what amI feeling or how am I feeling?
And to pause and just take amoment to bring awareness into
the body.
And when they first practicethis, they may not know.
They may feel nothing.
(13:39):
That's okay.
That's where I was to a lot ofpeople.
Well, I guess that's what you're feeling, isn't it? You'refeeling nothing.
Emma (13:44):
Yeah.
But with practice, if you keepasking yourself that question
and if you keep bringingawareness into the body, and
there are practices and toolswhich can help with that, as we
do that, we will start tonotice, okay, well, maybe my
body feels a bit tense andtight.
So maybe maybe it wants to do alittle bit of stretch or a
little bit of movement, or I'mhungry or thirsty, or maybe I'm
(14:05):
tired, maybe I need a nap, ormaybe I need to sit for a few
minutes.
Um, so with practice, as wecontinue to ask ourselves that
question, we do start to be ableto listen to those signs that
our body is telling us thatthere may be some physiological
need, an emotional need, maybethere's a mental need, maybe we
(14:26):
feel confused, feel overwhelmed,whatever it might be.
And so bit by bit we can startto tune into that.
So the first question is, howam I feeling?
The second question is, what doI need now?
And again, we may not know theanswer to that question when we
first start this practice.
Mentally, emotionally,physically, spiritually, what is
(14:47):
it that I need and how we meetthose needs?
And it might be that physicalstuff.
I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'mthirsty.
It might be emotional andmental regulation skills, how to
give yourself a mental breakand time out, how to regulate
stress or anxiety or overwhelm.
Then the next bit is how to setsome boundaries around the
(15:09):
stuff that is not serving us.
That maybe our mind or ourguilt or our conditioning or our
people pleasing is saying, oh,I should do that, but actually
tuning into what I really wantto do or what I really need to
do or what is going to beserving me best and saying yes
(15:30):
to those things and saying no tothe other things.
And that's not an easy thing todo when we first start to
practice.
Merilyn (15:37):
Do you have an example of a boundary that you put into
place?
Just to because sure we hear alot about boundaries.
They sound like pretty meanthings, but you can tell us one
that works for you or how you'reputting one in place.
Emma (15:51):
So some big some big and difficult decisions that I made
when I first went through thatburnout that I was talking about
when my babies were little wasstarting to recognize the people
who depleted me.
I was a giver, I was a peoplepleaser, I was an empath, I
spent a lot of my time givinglots to other people.
(16:13):
And this was the first time inmy life where I felt like I
needed from other people becauseI was in a difficult place in
my life.
And that showed me with greatclarity the people who were
there for me and the people whoweren't, and where my
relationships had reciprocityand give and take and balance
and support and where theydidn't.
(16:34):
And so I chose to, with greatinternal angst at that time,
start to pull back fromrelationships that felt
depleting or harmful for me indifferent ways and say no to
spending time to those peopleand choosing to cultivate
relationships with people thatfelt more balanced, that felt
(16:55):
more supportive, that felt moregive and take.
If I received an invitation tosomething, whether it was to
spend time with a person or anactivity or be in a particular
environment, whatever it is, Ilearned to just pause and check
in with myself and notice.
Does my body go?
How do you feel?
Oh yes, that sounds good.
I really want to do that.
And you kind of get this energyburst when you think about it.
(17:15):
Or your body might go, ooh, no,you might feel tense, you might
feel stressed, you might feeldepleted, you might feel angst,
you might feel disgust, youmight feel some level of
aversion in your body or in youremotions.
That is your inner guidancesaying, no, say no to this.
To give you a practicalexample, I'm a highly sensitive
(17:37):
person, so I get easilyoverwhelmed by crowds and noisy
environments.
So if I'm invited to a placewhere there's going to be lots
of crowd and noise, and I usedto be able to do it in my
younger days, but as I'm gettingolder, I can't do it anymore.
I think about being in thatenvironment and my whole body
starts to feel overwhelmed.
And I think, oh no, I don'twant to do that.
(17:58):
Whereas if someone says, Do youwant to come for a walk to the
beach?
My body goes, Oh yes, thatfeels like fresh air and
whiteness and sunshine.
Let's do that.
For me, it took a while tolearn that because I think it
conflicted with my value thatpeople are important, you've got
to spend time with themregardless.
For example, if a friend wouldinvite me to a party, I may not
(18:18):
know anyone except that friend,and I'd go to the party, and I
found it depleting.
But I would go because it wasmy friend.
And I think just recently whereI've said to myself, I actually
don't enjoy that.
I would much prefer to say tothat person, is it okay if just
you and I go out to celebrate myshout?
I'd prefer to do that.
(18:39):
Yeah, and that word value or values is really important in
this whole process, Marilyn.
It's beautiful that you'vebrought that into the
conversation.
It's important to haveawareness of what we really
value, what is really importantto us, what is core to who we
are, and it will be differentfor each and every one of us.
(18:59):
And it will be related to ourinterests, our personal
strengths, personality,sensitivity, and all sorts of
different things to get a senseof what our values are and say
yes to the things that are inalignment and no to the things
that are outside of that.
And to look for the win-win.
So the example that you gave isa beautiful one where your
(19:20):
value is friendship and toconnect with your friend and to
support your friend, but to doit in a way that is also a win
for you.
So if supporting your friendbut going to the party, that
might be a win for her, but itmight be a lose for you.
Whereas the example that yougave of, well, if I take my
friend out for a one-on-one, I'mshowing her my support, I'm
(19:41):
showing her my connection, butI'm doing it in a way that isn't
depleting for me.
Looking for the win-win,looking for where everybody's
needs can be met.
What is in my highest bestinterest is in the highest best
interest of all.
So I can be there for my friendin a fuller way.
If I can do it from this placethat is serving me, I can also
(20:05):
serve her.
Merilyn (20:06):
Can I ask you another hard question around boundaries
and self-care?
I'm sure people are thinking ofit.
What if one of those people youlive with, or they're a family
member?
How do you put boundariesaround when you physically
cannot distance yourself frompeople?
Emma (20:23):
Yeah, it's a really good question and not an easy one.
And we may be living withpeople, whether it's parents,
partners, or children orflatmates who stress us out or
who overwhelm us, whatever itmight be.
There's no right or wronganswer to this.
If you absolutely have to livewith this person and no other
choice in that, then findingways to as much as possible
(20:46):
throughout the day or throughoutyour week to give yourself some
space and time out from that.
So can you leave the house atdifferent times of the day to go
and do something that feelsreplenishing for you, whether
it's for a walk or whether it'sto catch up with a friend or
whether it's just to sit in thegarden or sit in your car or you
know, whatever it is, just togive yourself some time out to
(21:08):
replenish whatever feels in linewith your values, but also is
practical and feasible.
So partly that, and then alsoto practice emotion regulation
strategies that will help youmanage the stress or the
irritability or the resentment,whatever it is that might arise
when you feel that you're in asituation that you can't change
or can't control.
(21:29):
So breathing techniques andshifting resistant thoughts,
moving into a place ofacceptance.
I have all sorts of tools andstrategies around that.
But also might have some hardquestions around do you have to
be the only person here who'sdoing the serving and the
supporting?
Are there other family members?
Are there friends?
Are there support services thatyou can call on?
(21:51):
Or maybe even a harderquestion, do you absolutely have
to live with this person?
And the answer may be yes, andthat's okay.
But maybe the answer isn't yes.
And maybe because of unhelpful,conditioned, self-sacrificing
beliefs, we found ourselves inthat situation, but maybe we
don't actually have to be inthat situation.
(22:11):
And again, there's no right orwrong, but there's a concertina
approach, if you like, ofsmaller steps that we can take
right up to the big harddecisions that maybe we could
look at.
Merilyn (22:22):
It's really vital that I think these questions are
answered.
But who has influenced orinspired you the most?
Who would you like to perhapsshow off about or honour?
Emma (22:33):
Yeah.
Apart from my family and myloved ones, my favorite human
beings on the planet are theDalai Lama, Eckhart Tolly, and
Esther Hicks.
I have gleaned from each ofthem how to find peace in deep
suffering and how to find joy,how to find vitality, how to
find purpose, how to findmeaning in life.
(22:56):
And each of them has done it indifferent ways.
Merilyn (22:59):
Emma, at the end of your life, if there was one
thing that you wanted to beremembered for, what would it
be?
Emma (23:06):
Someone posted this quote the other day, and it was
something like spend time withpeople who make you feel like
sunshine or who feel likesunshine.
And I want to be that.
I want to be joy.
I want to be a place of peaceand calm and a sanctuary, a balm
for their soul.
I want to be an inspiration,but I want to feel that life has
(23:30):
been a little bit better forpeople if they've touched me or
come in contact with me in someway.
I want to be here to serve.
That's what my entire being isall about.
Well, you've done that already, Emma. Isthere anything else you want to
share that's on the tip of yourtongue that you feel you need
to channel out to the world?
Be kind to yourself.
We beat up on ourselves somuch.
(23:52):
We are that self-critical voicecan be so loud.
This human journey is messy,it's hard, it's complicated, we
have a whole mix of all sorts ofemotions and unhelpful beliefs.
So just to be a little gentlerwith ourselves and yeah, love us
a little bit if we can.
Merilyn (24:10):
Just to enhance that, I was reading somewhere or heard
someone talk the other day, itmight have been on a podcast,
that they keep a photo ofthemselves as a young child in
front of them all the time.
And when they've catchthemselves being unkind to
themselves, they look at thatlittle girl and go, Would I talk
to her like that?
And it helps them be kind tothemselves.
Emma (24:29):
Yeah, that's a powerful and beautiful practice.
It's beautiful.
Merilyn (24:34):
Thank you, Emma.
Hey, before we start, this is episode two of 12
conversations I recorded a fewyears back and never released.
Not because of the guests.
The guests were brilliant, butbecause of me.
You'll have to go back andlisten to the previous episode
to hear about that.
This one, today's episode, iswith psychologist Emma Gray.
(00:23):
Now there's one moment in thischat that completely changed the
way I think about burnout.
I won't tell you what it is now, but havea listen and you'll know it
when you hear it.
Who are you and what is it thatyou do?
Emma (00:42):
I am a therapist.
I'm a clinical psychologist bytraining, but have expanded
beyond that into work that I'mreally passionate about, working
with women who are big-hearted,soul-driven, who feel that they
have a big calling.
Merilyn (00:58):
So, what does that look like for your business?
Emma (01:01):
I'm still a registered clinical psychologist, but most
of my work now is in like whatwe would call the coaching
space, either individually doingprivate coaching, or I run
coaching programs and I runretreats.
So working with women torestore their balance, to uh
re-energize themselves, reducestress, reduce overwhelm, feel
(01:23):
more grounded, balanced, Iguess, at all levels of their
being, mental, emotional,physical, spiritual balance,
coming into full alignment withtheir highest values, with what
their heart is really callingthem to do.
So helping them get clarity ifthey don't already have this
around what their strengths are,what their values are, what is
(01:44):
really important to them, howthey want to spend their time,
what they want to do with thisprecious life that we have, so
that they can live their liveswith more joy, with more
fulfillment, with moresatisfaction and feel like, yes,
I really am loving my life.
Obviously, there's no perfectlife, but great if we can say,
yeah, I really love my life.
Merilyn (02:03):
You work with women mainly.
I'd like to know what uniqueblocks or common threads do you
see that us women have?
Why don't we have clarity onthis?
Or is it just that now we'remuch more open to that desire to
want more?
Emma (02:21):
I think we're at a unique time in our history where for
generations we've held thisintergenerational witch wound
trauma, if you like, where wehave across cultures and across
time been oppressed, oppressed,held back, or there hasn't been
equality.
And we're at this reallyspecial time where this isn't
(02:42):
for every woman in everyculture, but certainly where we
are, we have this opportunity toreally reach into ourselves and
really go for our dreams.
We we aren't just here to getmarried and have babies.
And if women want to do that,that's wonderful.
I'm a mom, I love my babiesdearly.
But where we can reach for thestars and get there if we want
(03:04):
to.
So I feel blessed to be able tobe part of that movement, part
of that shift that's happeningright now.
But also, I guess, because ofmy own experience, when I got
married, that was a shock to thesystem.
And I was in a really unhealthyrelationship and felt like I'd
suddenly been transported backto the 1950s, and everything I
(03:25):
knew in my whole world, yeah,everything I knew in my whole
world turned upside down, and Ifelt really disempowered in that
relationship.
I had babies and I wasn'tfinancially independent, and I
felt trapped and it was veryunhealthy, and I completely lost
myself, didn't know how to findmy way out of that, really.
So being in that place ofcomplete loss and burnout, it
(03:49):
really helped me feel compassionfor women in a way that I had
not before.
And as I found my way out ofthat, one of the greatest life
lessons that I learned from thatwas self-care.
Not just have a bubble bath andwalk in nature kind of
self-care, but the strength andthe courage to tune into who we
(04:09):
are and what we really need andset some really strong
boundaries for ourselves aroundthe people, the situations, the
activities, the environmentsthat aren't serving us, that are
depleting us mentally,physically, emotionally,
spiritually.
And to really tune in at everylevel of our being to what
(04:29):
replenishes us, what serves us,what uplifts us.
That's what I mean byself-care, making the courageous
decisions to say yes to thosethings that serve us and no to
those things that don't.
That was a very hard journeyfor me.
I was a self-sacrificing peoplepleaser and I didn't know how
to do that.
I was probably a bit of adoormat or a lot of a doormat.
(04:50):
So it it was a difficult timefor me.
It was my dark night of thesoul, and it took a lot of very
deep soul searching to figureout some of these answers.
Now that I feel that I'mthrough that and out the other
side and I'm living a prettygood life, I just have this.
I was gonna use the wordpassion, but it feels bigger
than that.
It feels like everything thatmakes me feel alive to serve
(05:13):
women, support women, help womenbe here to help those who may
be going through some kind ofchallenge, difficulties, crisis,
some kind of suffering.
And there is a woo-woo soulstory that goes with that as
well.
But that's probably a longanswer to your question,
Merilyn.
Merilyn (05:28):
Let's deal with some of the hard things.
So let's let's tackle the firstone now, self-care.
Why is it that self-care ishard to identify?
Like if someone had said to me20 years ago, self-care, I
probably would have thoughtpampering going to the spa.
Why is this a topic that weshould put on the table and
redefine and help womenunderstand?
Emma (05:51):
We are conditioned in our culture, in our society to put
ourselves last, to work hard, beproductive, do more, the on the
go, on all the time, busy busy.
That goes for all genders.
Before when we were tribalbeings, we went with the ebb and
flow of nature.
We were hunting and gatheringat times and other times sitting
(06:11):
by the campfire and tellingstories and connecting.
But since the IndustrialRevolution, there's been this
nine to five working, but thosenine to five hours have expanded
and expanded.
And with the introduction oftechnology where we're
contactable 24-7, we don't getthat break, we don't get that
time to switch off.
(06:31):
We've become more immersed inour screens, we've come more
disconnected from nature andwhat we naturally need, what our
rhythms are.
But particularly for women,where we are conditioned to be
putting everyone else firstpartners, children, boss,
employees, friends, we areconditioned to be the good girl.
(06:55):
And if we're not being that, ifwe're doing something for
ourselves, we are told or giventhe message that we are selfish,
lazy, self-indulgent.
And so it's really hard for usas women, I'm getting goosebumps
as I say this, to giveourselves permission to practice
self-care, to tune in to whatwe really need, to say no to the
(07:19):
things that are depleting us orharmful for us, and to say yes
to the things that are in ourbest interest.
It's really hard for us to dothat.
We are layered with guilt andanxiety when we start to set
boundaries.
So it's really a disease of ourtime.
Merilyn (07:35):
And it is so built in, isn't it?
I I was aware of it two daysago.
I was making a new dish and Iwas serving it out.
I was watching myself take thesmallest serve, take the serve
that didn't look as good.
But we do that everywhere.
We serve everyone else first,but then we get the leftovers.
Emma (07:55):
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to love and care for the
people around us.
Absolutely.
But by choosing to prioritizeour own well-being, it
replenishes us, re-energizes us,fills us with joy, it fills us
with vitality so that when ourcup is full and flowing, we have
more to give.
(08:16):
We are more present, showing upas a bigger, brighter, better
version of ourselves.
In whatever way we choose toserve, in whatever way lights us
up, if we choose to do that,rather than coming from this
place of resentment or depletionor obligation.
The quality of serving is verydifferent when we come from that
(08:39):
foundation of self-care versusself-denial and self-sacrifice.
And I know that from deeppersonal experience.
Merilyn (08:47):
What has caused us to pass that on generation after
generation?
Emma (08:51):
It's that conditioning that I was talking about and
that disconnection from ournatural rhythms.
But it can shift and it doesn'tneed to take a lot to shift,
actually, Merilyn that thescience shows that the more we
take breaks, the more we taketime out for the self for
ourselves, the more we do thingsthat replenish ourselves,
(09:12):
whether it's five minutes ofdeep breathing or an hour at the
park or yoga practicemeditation, different things for
different people, that changesour biochemistry.
It changes our neurology, itchanges the way our body and
mind functions.
We do feel more spacious, thatyou're not imagining that.
The neuroscience shows that ourstress system, our fight-flight
(09:37):
system starts to deactivate.
And our parasympathetic nervoussystem, which is our relaxation
system, our regeneratingsystem, our rest and digest
replenish systems, activateswhen we give ourselves this time
out.
And when we can do that, thatsystem gives us not just access
to physical vitality and energyand well-being and repairing the
(10:00):
immune system and boostingheart health and all of those
wonderful things, but it givesus access to creative thinking,
innovative thinking, differentways of seeing the world.
It helps us become moreplayful, more lighthearted, to
feel more joyful, more calm,better, brighter versions of
ourselves.
And there is hard science thatbacks that up.
(10:21):
The Altradian rhythms is astudy that shows that we have
this biological requirement forperiods of rest activity, rest
activity, rest activitythroughout the day.
90 minutes of activity, 20minutes of rest, 90 minutes of
activity, 20 minutes of rest.
That's biologically how we'rehardwired to be throughout the
(10:41):
day.
Our body signals will betelling us whether in this
moment we need to rest andreplenish and recharge, or
whether, yeah, we're good to go.
We're energized and it's timeto play, it's time to go and
engage in some activity.
So the signals that our bodyneeds to rest might be that
(11:01):
we're feeling either physicallytired or mentally tired.
We lose energy or lose focusand concentration.
We might start to feeloverwhelmed, feel irritable.
All these are signs that ourbody is sending us that if we've
been thinking and concentratingfor a lot, maybe it's time to
get up and move the body andtake a mental break.
Or if we've been doingsomething physical for a while,
(11:22):
maybe it's time to just sit andchill for a little bit.
And then when we are rested,our body will start to get
restless and we'll start to feellike we've got this surge of
energy, or we get inspiration.
We might get flooded with ideasof things that we want to do,
either mentally, creatively toput our energy into something,
or physically to put our energyinto something.
So our innate body wisdom willtell us in any given moment
(11:47):
which mode do I need to be inright now?
Rest mode or activity mode.
Merilyn (11:53):
I'm so glad you brought this up because I think this is
one of the hard issues.
There's a lot of talk aboutlistening into your body.
Can you demystify that?
Because when I hit that tidewall, I want to watch Netflix or
I go for a walk or somethinglike that.
My brain goes, No, you have tokeep working.
Why do we find that hard?
Can you go a little bit deeperinto listening to the body?
(12:17):
How do we do that?
Because you're amazing at it.
I wasn't always that way. Throughthis period of burnout, clearly
I wasn't listening to my body.
I was completely disconnectedfrom my body and what I needed.
You aptly said, we live fromour neck up, we live in our
heads.
We aren't taught how to reallycheck in with what's happening
(12:37):
from the neck down.
And I can remember the firsttime I went to see a beautiful
therapist and she said to me,What's happening in your body
right now?
And I paused and I felt andsensed into and I said, Nothing.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
I was so dissociated from mybody.
And I used to be a reallyanxious person.
I think that was part of mysurvival mechanism.
(12:58):
I'm a sensitive person, and soI would take on a lot of other
people's stuff.
And the way I coped with thatwas just to disconnect from it.
So I totally understand why,for various reasons, some people
will say, Well, I don'tunderstand what you mean when
you say listen to your body ortune into your body, because I
was certainly in that space.
And it comes with practice.
(13:18):
So I invite my clients toengage in what I call a
self-check-in process, which hastwo questions.
The first question is, what amI feeling or how am I feeling?
And to pause and just take amoment to bring awareness into
the body.
And when they first practicethis, they may not know.
They may feel nothing.
(13:39):
That's okay.
That's where I was to a lot ofpeople.
Well, I guess that's what you're feeling, isn't it? You'refeeling nothing.
Emma (13:44):
Yeah.
But with practice, if you keepasking yourself that question
and if you keep bringingawareness into the body, and
there are practices and toolswhich can help with that, as we
do that, we will start tonotice, okay, well, maybe my
body feels a bit tense andtight.
So maybe maybe it wants to do alittle bit of stretch or a
little bit of movement, or I'mhungry or thirsty, or maybe I'm
(14:05):
tired, maybe I need a nap, ormaybe I need to sit for a few
minutes.
Um, so with practice, as wecontinue to ask ourselves that
question, we do start to be ableto listen to those signs that
our body is telling us thatthere may be some physiological
need, an emotional need, maybethere's a mental need, maybe we
(14:26):
feel confused, feel overwhelmed,whatever it might be.
And so bit by bit we can startto tune into that.
So the first question is, howam I feeling?
The second question is, what doI need now?
And again, we may not know theanswer to that question when we
first start this practice.
Mentally, emotionally,physically, spiritually, what is
(14:47):
it that I need and how we meetthose needs?
And it might be that physicalstuff.
I'm tired, I'm hungry, I'mthirsty.
It might be emotional andmental regulation skills, how to
give yourself a mental breakand time out, how to regulate
stress or anxiety or overwhelm.
Then the next bit is how to setsome boundaries around the
(15:09):
stuff that is not serving us.
That maybe our mind or ourguilt or our conditioning or our
people pleasing is saying, oh,I should do that, but actually
tuning into what I really wantto do or what I really need to
do or what is going to beserving me best and saying yes
(15:30):
to those things and saying no tothe other things.
And that's not an easy thing todo when we first start to
practice.
Merilyn (15:37):
Do you have an example of a boundary that you put into
place?
Just to because sure we hear alot about boundaries.
They sound like pretty meanthings, but you can tell us one
that works for you or how you'reputting one in place.
Emma (15:51):
So some big some big and difficult decisions that I made
when I first went through thatburnout that I was talking about
when my babies were little wasstarting to recognize the people
who depleted me.
I was a giver, I was a peoplepleaser, I was an empath, I
spent a lot of my time givinglots to other people.
(16:13):
And this was the first time inmy life where I felt like I
needed from other people becauseI was in a difficult place in
my life.
And that showed me with greatclarity the people who were
there for me and the people whoweren't, and where my
relationships had reciprocityand give and take and balance
and support and where theydidn't.
(16:34):
And so I chose to, with greatinternal angst at that time,
start to pull back fromrelationships that felt
depleting or harmful for me indifferent ways and say no to
spending time to those peopleand choosing to cultivate
relationships with people thatfelt more balanced, that felt
(16:55):
more supportive, that felt moregive and take.
If I received an invitation tosomething, whether it was to
spend time with a person or anactivity or be in a particular
environment, whatever it is, Ilearned to just pause and check
in with myself and notice.
Does my body go?
How do you feel?
Oh yes, that sounds good.
I really want to do that.
And you kind of get this energyburst when you think about it.
(17:15):
Or your body might go, ooh, no,you might feel tense, you might
feel stressed, you might feeldepleted, you might feel angst,
you might feel disgust, youmight feel some level of
aversion in your body or in youremotions.
That is your inner guidancesaying, no, say no to this.
To give you a practicalexample, I'm a highly sensitive
(17:37):
person, so I get easilyoverwhelmed by crowds and noisy
environments.
So if I'm invited to a placewhere there's going to be lots
of crowd and noise, and I usedto be able to do it in my
younger days, but as I'm gettingolder, I can't do it anymore.
I think about being in thatenvironment and my whole body
starts to feel overwhelmed.
And I think, oh no, I don'twant to do that.
(17:58):
Whereas if someone says, Do youwant to come for a walk to the
beach?
My body goes, Oh yes, thatfeels like fresh air and
whiteness and sunshine.
Let's do that.
For me, it took a while tolearn that because I think it
conflicted with my value thatpeople are important, you've got
to spend time with themregardless.
For example, if a friend wouldinvite me to a party, I may not
(18:18):
know anyone except that friend,and I'd go to the party, and I
found it depleting.
But I would go because it wasmy friend.
And I think just recently whereI've said to myself, I actually
don't enjoy that.
I would much prefer to say tothat person, is it okay if just
you and I go out to celebrate myshout?
I'd prefer to do that.
(18:39):
Yeah, and that word value or values is really important in
this whole process, Marilyn.
It's beautiful that you'vebrought that into the
conversation.
It's important to haveawareness of what we really
value, what is really importantto us, what is core to who we
are, and it will be differentfor each and every one of us.
(18:59):
And it will be related to ourinterests, our personal
strengths, personality,sensitivity, and all sorts of
different things to get a senseof what our values are and say
yes to the things that are inalignment and no to the things
that are outside of that.
And to look for the win-win.
So the example that you gave isa beautiful one where your
(19:20):
value is friendship and toconnect with your friend and to
support your friend, but to doit in a way that is also a win
for you.
So if supporting your friendbut going to the party, that
might be a win for her, but itmight be a lose for you.
Whereas the example that yougave of, well, if I take my
friend out for a one-on-one, I'mshowing her my support, I'm
(19:41):
showing her my connection, butI'm doing it in a way that isn't
depleting for me.
Looking for the win-win,looking for where everybody's
needs can be met.
What is in my highest bestinterest is in the highest best
interest of all.
So I can be there for my friendin a fuller way.
If I can do it from this placethat is serving me, I can also
(20:05):
serve her.
Merilyn (20:06):
Can I ask you another hard question around boundaries
and self-care?
I'm sure people are thinking ofit.
What if one of those people youlive with, or they're a family
member?
How do you put boundariesaround when you physically
cannot distance yourself frompeople?
Emma (20:23):
Yeah, it's a really good question and not an easy one.
And we may be living withpeople, whether it's parents,
partners, or children orflatmates who stress us out or
who overwhelm us, whatever itmight be.
There's no right or wronganswer to this.
If you absolutely have to livewith this person and no other
choice in that, then findingways to as much as possible
(20:46):
throughout the day or throughoutyour week to give yourself some
space and time out from that.
So can you leave the house atdifferent times of the day to go
and do something that feelsreplenishing for you, whether
it's for a walk or whether it'sto catch up with a friend or
whether it's just to sit in thegarden or sit in your car or you
know, whatever it is, just togive yourself some time out to
(21:08):
replenish whatever feels in linewith your values, but also is
practical and feasible.
So partly that, and then alsoto practice emotion regulation
strategies that will help youmanage the stress or the
irritability or the resentment,whatever it is that might arise
when you feel that you're in asituation that you can't change
or can't control.
(21:29):
So breathing techniques andshifting resistant thoughts,
moving into a place ofacceptance.
I have all sorts of tools andstrategies around that.
But also might have some hardquestions around do you have to
be the only person here who'sdoing the serving and the
supporting?
Are there other family members?
Are there friends?
Are there support services thatyou can call on?
(21:51):
Or maybe even a harderquestion, do you absolutely have
to live with this person?
And the answer may be yes, andthat's okay.
But maybe the answer isn't yes.
And maybe because of unhelpful,conditioned, self-sacrificing
beliefs, we found ourselves inthat situation, but maybe we
don't actually have to be inthat situation.
(22:11):
And again, there's no right orwrong, but there's a concertina
approach, if you like, ofsmaller steps that we can take
right up to the big harddecisions that maybe we could
look at.
Merilyn (22:22):
It's really vital that I think these questions are
answered.
But who has influenced orinspired you the most?
Who would you like to perhapsshow off about or honour?
Emma (22:33):
Yeah.
Apart from my family and myloved ones, my favorite human
beings on the planet are theDalai Lama, Eckhart Tolly, and
Esther Hicks.
I have gleaned from each ofthem how to find peace in deep
suffering and how to find joy,how to find vitality, how to
find purpose, how to findmeaning in life.
(22:56):
And each of them has done it indifferent ways.
Merilyn (22:59):
Emma, at the end of your life, if there was one
thing that you wanted to beremembered for, what would it
be?
Emma (23:06):
Someone posted this quote the other day, and it was
something like spend time withpeople who make you feel like
sunshine or who feel likesunshine.
And I want to be that.
I want to be joy.
I want to be a place of peaceand calm and a sanctuary, a balm
for their soul.
I want to be an inspiration,but I want to feel that life has
(23:30):
been a little bit better forpeople if they've touched me or
come in contact with me in someway.
I want to be here to serve.
That's what my entire being isall about.
Well, you've done that already, Emma. Isthere anything else you want to
share that's on the tip of yourtongue that you feel you need
to channel out to the world?
Be kind to yourself.
We beat up on ourselves somuch.
(23:52):
We are that self-critical voicecan be so loud.
This human journey is messy,it's hard, it's complicated, we
have a whole mix of all sorts ofemotions and unhelpful beliefs.
So just to be a little gentlerwith ourselves and yeah, love us
a little bit if we can.
Merilyn (24:10):
Just to enhance that, I was reading somewhere or heard
someone talk the other day, itmight have been on a podcast,
that they keep a photo ofthemselves as a young child in
front of them all the time.
And when they've catchthemselves being unkind to
themselves, they look at thatlittle girl and go, Would I talk
to her like that?
And it helps them be kind tothemselves.
Emma (24:29):
Yeah, that's a powerful and beautiful practice.
It's beautiful.
Merilyn (24:34):
Thank you, Emma.
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