December 29, 2025 • 34 mins
The quiet hours can change a life. We sit down with author and artist Laing Rikkers to trace how dawn writing, long walks, and a sudden loss opened a doorway from grief to growth—and how nature’s language can help you name what’s changing in midlife. Laing’s book, Morning Leaves, began as private morning pages for her children during lockdown and grew into a vivid map of becoming: palms bent by relentless wind, a black-eyed Susan fighting through concrete, a cactus guarding a soft core. These images mirror the real work many of us face now—shedding old identities, listening more closely, and choosing what truly matters when the noise falls away.
We talk about the awkward courage of trying on a new self when your past role still fits others’ expectations. After years in private equity, sharing poems and botanical art felt risky, but encouragement, a wise publisher, and a steady trail of “breadcrumbs” kept her moving. Lang reframes grief as a practice that can lead to joy—not sparkly happiness, but a grounded alignment with values and integrity. The second edition of Morning Leaves expands the lens beyond bereavement to cultural and environmental loss, adds new art and a poem, and includes an epilogue reflecting on five years of transformation.
Along the way, we lean into simple practices that make space for clarity: morning pages before the inner critic wakes up, walking in nature until an image meets your mood, and following small curiosities back to play. We also explore service as a source of meaning—supporting food security and end-of-life caregivers—and how radical self-care sustains expression and impact. If midlife feels like a cliff edge, consider this your nudge: crack the concrete, grow wild, bloom bright, and listen carefully. Press play, share this with a friend who needs courage today, and if it resonates, subscribe and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.
Laing Rikkers is an award-winning author, entrepreneur, and executive coach whose personal journey through grief inspired her book Morning Leaves (Red Hen Press), now in its second edition. Drawing on creativity, nature, and simple daily rituals, Laing offers a practical and
compassionate guide to navigating grief and life’s many transitions. Whether facing personal loss, burnout, or major change, her heartfelt insights and actionable tools help people find resilience, meaning, and joy—even in the darkest seasons.
Website: www.laingrikkers.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:00):
Welcome to the MiDOViA Menopause Podcast, your
trusted source for informationabout menopause and midlife.
Join us each episode as we havegreat conversations with great
people.
Tune in and enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey everyone, welcome back.
Today we're diving into aconversation that feels
especially powerful for women inmidlife.
This is the season where somany of us are navigating
change, loss, reinvention, andthe quiet unraveling and
rebuilding of what happensinside.
And our guest today is LaingRikkers.
(00:36):
Laing is the author of MorningLeaves, which is a stunning
collection of poems andbotanical art that she wrote in
the early mornings following thesudden loss of her sister
during COVID.
Morning Leaves is a book aboutgrief, but equally a book about
becoming, about what happenswhen life cracks us open and
invites us to grow in a newdirection.
(00:57):
You know, what makes Laing'swork so resonant from midlife is
the honesty in her metaphors.
She writes of being a plum treecarrying generational memory, a
cactus protecting its softinner core, a black-eyed Susan
rising through the concrete,which happened to be my favorite
one, and a sprout emerging fromthe ashes.
(01:18):
These are the emotionallandscapes so many women walk
through during this stage oflife.
Moments of burnout, resilience,awakening, tenderness, and
profound clarity.
Midlife asks us to let go ofold identities, to listen more
deeply, to reconnect with ourintuition, and pay attention to
what truly matters.
(01:39):
Morning Leave offers a way toname these seasons, to see
ourselves in nature, and toremember that we're not alone in
the transition.
Laing's story is a reminderthat healing isn't linear,
creativity can be a lifeline,and the second half of life can
blossom in ways we neverexpected.
I'm so grateful to have herhere today.
(01:59):
Lang, welcome.
Speaker (02:01):
Thank you for having me.
I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah.
So your dedication cracked meopen and whispered today, now,
is something many of midlifewomen feel even without a
specific loss.
So, how do you see grief ormajor life changes as a mid as a
midlife awakening?
A moment that forces us toreassess priorities, identify
(02:27):
what we want, and look at whatwe what the second half of life
looks like.
How do you what what were youwhat did you experience there?
Speaker (02:36):
Well, in the dedication of my book, I was referencing
the death of my sister.
And that was for me a veryparticular kind of wake-up call.
And it you know coincided withmy being in midlife.
And so the whole experience oflosing her and opening of the
(03:00):
sort of door to self-reflectionthat that kind of a loss brings
uh happened to coincide with mybeing, you know, at this at this
particular stage of life.
And it was um a realopportunity to reflect on who I
had been, what I'd been doing,what I'd been putting up with,
(03:21):
what I needed to let go of andmove away from.
And the way in which my sisterdied very suddenly, I think also
was this um particular wake-upcall of like, do it now.
That was the that was the theurgency there of what are you
waiting for?
Like, get with a program,girlfriend.
(03:43):
You need to clean up a fewthings here.
And you've been doing somethings that are really not
aligned with your values and notum not serving you.
And so um, let's really diginto what I did, and I'm not
sure that I was conscious thatthis is what I was doing, but
now that I've had some distancefrom the whole experience, I
think I really was saying tomyself, we really need to look
(04:07):
at all of who you are and whatyou're doing and what you care
about and and do a little bit ofrealignment here.
And so I I was able to put itout in the botanical metaphors
that I did.
I don't know that I was braveenough to do it more directly
than that, but my hope is thatum the metaphor also makes it
(04:31):
more accessible and uh useful toother people.
Somehow so precise.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I love metaphors.
So um I actually haven't had anopportunity to read your whole
book of poems.
So I'm looking forward to doingthat um and was excited to just
read through kind of cliffnotes uh that Kim sent my way.
I'm I'm wondering though, umyou mentioned that you had a
moment where you thought, who amI to publish poetry and art?
(05:02):
And I think um, you know,because your background wasn't
in writing, right?
It was a career in business forthose of you that aren't
familiar with her work.
Um, and I think many midlifewomen have that new identity
that they're adopting or the newcoat, if you will, that they're
putting on at this differentstage of life.
(05:23):
And it can feel awkward.
It's like a new pair of shoes,right?
You put in a new pair of shoesand it feels a little bit
strange because it's not,they're not broken in yet,
right?
Um, and I'm wondering if youcan kind of take us through how
you navigated through thatdiscomfort of pursuing something
different when your oldidentity really matched and
(05:45):
aligned with what people thoughtyou were, if that makes sense.
And just to kind of help othersthrough that same stage.
Speaker (05:53):
Yes.
Well, I had a little bit of thebenefit of the COVID bubble.
So I my sister died in Decemberof 19, screaving, then
lockdown, the isolation, and Istarted writing.
And um I both had a little bitmore time, and it was, and the
world was so different andquiet, right, at that moment.
(06:17):
So the writing part, eventhough it was unfamiliar to me
as a practice, um, I had thesort of space and privacy, maybe
you'd say, to be able to dothat.
And similarly, when I started,so what happened was I I started
writing in the mornings and Ihadn't, I wasn't intending to
(06:40):
write a book to begin with, butmy sister had died um with a
nine-year-old daughter.
And so I knew that she had notshared with her daughter
everything as a mom that shewould have wanted to.
So I was really um keenly awareof the idea that I might have
things to share with my own kidsand what would those be.
(07:02):
And and this, mind you, wasright when we were all hearing
about people dropping dead inItaly and soccer game.
This was a very intense timefor everyone.
And I just had the additionallayer of the of the grief.
So I had written, startedorganizing my my pobes really to
(07:23):
type them up to give to mychildren, thinking that maybe
this would shed some light onwho I was, and I wanted them to
know me.
God forbid something happenedto me.
And in doing that, like I saidearlier, there there seemed to
be something more universalthere than just my own story.
And so I started sharing itwith some other friends who are
(07:47):
professional writers.
And is there something here?
What do you think?
And I I think it really wasthat privacy of COVID.
I was very uncomfortable withthe idea of moving in this
direction.
I I did have a very particularidentity, and this was not it.
And so, and it was uh I mean, Iwas been in private equity in
(08:13):
New York, and it was veryserious and very male-dominated,
and very um particular.
And and then I had this book ofyou know, poetry about trees
and spirituality, and it feltuncomfortable to reveal myself
that way.
And so um, every time I had adoubt, somehow the universe just
(08:36):
kept giving me these signalswhere I would read something or
someone would say something, andI just it felt like
breadcrumbs.
I was like, oh, I guess I haveto keep going.
And I kept going and I gotencouragement from friends who
said, no, no, no, you should youshould keep going.
Maybe you would add in anintroduction, or maybe you you
know try this, or try you know,they gave me some suggestions
(08:57):
along the way, but I had theability to to then keep moving
forward, but it it was wildlyuncomfortable.
And I I have an immense respectfor artists because when you
put your work out there and it'sreally personal, you're so
vulnerable.
And I and I didn't realize andI think that's true for any kind
(09:19):
of artist, a musician oranyone.
And so I I would say to yourlisteners who, if they are
moving in this direction, thatthat discomfort is very normal.
And yet if you push through itand you get to the other side,
it's also so satisfying andrewarding.
And to find the connection withpeople who identify with it,
(09:43):
even if it's just a couple ofpeople, is really meaningful.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah.
I love the idea of breadcrumbsthat you followed them.
And I um I think April and Iexperienced this in the work
that we do because if we didn'tfollow them, it would haunt us.
Like we have to follow thispassion that we have in our
hearts around menopause inmidlife.
And if we didn't, I don't thinkwe we both wouldn't know what
we would be doing right now,right?
(10:09):
And you kept following the sortof your heart in this space and
gave yourself permission tothink outside the box to do
something different.
Um, when you look back now,what do you think about the
courage that it took for you todo that?
Speaker (10:30):
I'm really glad that I listened to my sort of inner
compass, I would say.
And that was really part of thejourney was the finding and
listening to that compass.
And so I'm very, very glad thatI did it.
And it still looks and feelsscary.
(10:52):
And I've got the second editionof the book coming out in
March, and it's scary all overagain.
So I think that that's justpart of speaking your truth in
the world and trying to be ashonest with yourself as you
possibly can means that you areexposed in a certain way.
(11:14):
And I believe that it's worthdoing that, but it doesn't mean
that it doesn't feel scary atall.
That's not scary, right?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Or easy.
Can you talk about what youadded to the book for this
second edition?
Because I think that's probablyone of the favorite parts um of
of your of your book to me.
It's where I was like, okay, Itotally get this now.
Speaker (11:36):
Sure.
So the first edition of thebook I can show you, this is the
first edition, and it's calledMorning Leads Reflections on
Lost, Grief, and Connection.
And the second edition, I havea new publisher, and she was
brilliant.
She at first we started talkingabout the book, and I said, you
know, are we thinking aboutthis as a grief gift book, which
(11:57):
is just how it's really been inthe world?
And she said, Yes, but this isactually a joy book.
And I was like, Oh interestingsame coin flip side.
And it opened up this wholedifferent way of seeing things
(12:18):
and thinking that was reallyhelpful.
And so the other thing that wasimportant to both her and me
was that right now there's somuch grief culturally.
It's not just death grief,there's political and
environmental and et cetera, etcetera.
So we wanted to open up theaperture to talk about all kinds
(12:41):
of loss.
So there's a preface now thatis fairly brief, but it opens up
this idea of loss in thebroader sense, and that in order
to find joy, it is available toall of us, but it's a choice
and that it takes work and thatit is effort.
And it's not the sort ofsparkle of happiness, it's that
(13:06):
very deliberate decision to liveaccording to you know what you
view as you know, sort ofintegrity and values, and that
in doing that you really canfind a deeper sense of joy.
And then it has so that's thefirst part that's new.
(13:26):
There is one new poem.
Um, there's a bunch of new art.
I worked with an incredibleartist named Kelly Leehee
Ratting, and she did new art forthe second edition as well.
And so there's new poem, andthen there's an epilogue that is
sort of the five-yearreflection on my experience of
(13:47):
having gone through this, andyou know, relevant to a lot of
things that we've chatted about,this question of well, who did
I become and why did I becomethat in going through this
process?
I mean, as somebody who Ireally never, I was not somebody
who had writing a book on theirbucket list.
This was not part of the planat all.
(14:07):
And yet it has turned out to beone of the more important
pivotal things that I've done,and I feel is important for me
as in my growth as a person, andthen also hopefully, you know,
the impact I can have in helpingother people get closer to
(14:30):
understanding themselves andhaving the opportunity to
express themselves too.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Just out of curiosity, were you a writer in
the sense of writing every day,journaling?
Did you have um, I guess I willsay experience with writing,
but uh just from a personalperspective, were you a writer
before you picked up the pen tostart this project?
Speaker (14:54):
No, I really wasn't.
I wasn't somebody who everjournaled.
I wasn't very comfortablewriting.
I mean, I'd done schoolwriting, but the kind of writing
I had done in school wasalways, you know, classic
grammar and very boxed in rightor wrong.
And, you know, unlike how mychildren learned to write, which
(15:15):
they Columbia Writers Programor get your ideas out on the
paper and we'll clean it up.
It was very, very differentfrom how I was taught writing.
And I was certainly influencedby their English classes going
through high school, but it wasuh Julie Cameron's artist way
that got me writing everymorning when COVID started and I
(15:38):
had a little bit more time.
I really wanted to do somethingcreative.
And so I had thought, well,maybe I'll make jewelry or
sculpt.
And I think had it not beenlocked down, I would have taken
a class or done something, but Ihad no skills and no tools and
no experience.
So I really needed to dosomething else.
(15:59):
So I started writing.
And if you've read um theartist's way, her primary
suggestion is morning pages,which is writing three pages
every morning before speaking ordoing anything else.
And that was where it allstarted.
And actually, the title,Morning Leaves, is also a nod to
morning pages and play on wordsof mourning and morning grief,
(16:24):
and leaves the tree and leavesof books and leaving and
staying, and so that was whatthat's I love that.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
I love that you um I love the story.
I mean that you weren't even awriter and you sat down with
blank pages.
I think that in and of itselftakes bravery, frankly.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Um, because so many people just won't, because it's
so uncomfortable to look at ablank page and not know where to
start.
And you also talk aboutaccessing a half-conscious state
through your morning writing,right?
A place where that deepertruth, as you mentioned,
emerges.
Um, I I too sit in the quiet atthe very, very early, now
(17:03):
earlier than I would like.
Um, hours of the wee morning tojust sit in the quiet and sit
with it and write.
And there's no agenda.
Um, but I'm wondering, midlifeoften brings a shift from doing
to listening to being in thatspace.
(17:23):
And I'm wondering what thatquiet space helped you to hear
about yourself, yourself.
Uh, just maybe you can pull outa little bit of nuggets there
for us.
What did you hear when you satin that space?
Speaker (17:38):
So, particularly when working on this book, I was
highly influenced by spending alot of time outdoors because of
lockdown.
One of the only things that Iwas doing was going for walks
outside.
I live in Southern California,and it's really beautiful.
And having access to places onfoot that normally in Southern
(18:02):
California you would never beable to walk, I was able to see
and appreciate this beautifulnature.
And I don't know if youremember how clear the skies
were.
I mean, not having anypollution meant that the skies
were this, you know, crystalclear electric blue and the
(18:22):
flowering trees and plants andthe vistas.
We could see the ocean, wecould see mountains.
It was just extraordinary.
So I was really flooded withthose images.
And I don't know how to explainthis better than just how it
was.
I would wake up every morningand just have this sense of
(18:44):
today I am a palm tree.
And then I would think aboutthe elements of a palm tree and
where they aligned with thingsthat I was thinking and
experiencing.
And it just kept going dayafter day after day.
I would have these differentsort of almost um auditory kind
of visions that I would justhear things that I would write
(19:09):
down.
And I I felt like a lot of itwas just channeling something
that it wasn't very consciouswriting.
I I talk about the introductionand the conclusion were like
post-coffee writing, which werevery intellectual and more
academic kind of writing.
The poetry was really in thisvery fuzzy state where I was
(19:32):
more just letting things flowthrough me.
And some of it was completegarbage, and some of it turned
out to be really special to me.
So it there was a little bit ofeddying in that as well.
But it I do think that that isa very special state of mind to
(19:53):
be in, and when one can berelaxed and calm and tap into
it.
I don't know where it all comesfrom, but but it but one can
learn things about themselvesthat is maybe a bit less
varnished than other times ofthe day.
(20:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And I think you, you know, you mentioned joy.
Um I think that it can bringjoy.
You know it brings a little bitof that quiet peace and joy to
the day when you can enter thatcreative space versus that
intellectual doing space.
Yeah.
(20:37):
And I imagine that there'sprobably studies done somewhere
that can attest to the dopaminerush maybe that we get um when
we do that.
But um I love that.
And you mentioned imaginingyourself as as the palm tree as
you were on your walks.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe metaphors in your book?
As Kim, you said your favoritewas which one?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
My favorite um was the black eyed Susan rising
through the concrete.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, because I think that we could use I I love
metaphors and I think that wecan use metaphors um to help
other women feel like thoseemotional archetypes, right?
That women move through inmidlife.
Speaker (21:18):
So can you talk a little bit about your I'll first
I'll read the poem because it'sI think it's relevant to what I
was grappling with at least toa certain degree at that time.
So it's called Palm I'm askinny palm on the cliff's edge
heavy winds beating on me dayafter day pushing me to their
will bending flexing enduring Iam marveled at for the shape
(21:43):
that I take on arched anddistorted tired I'm sorry arched
and contorted distorted by thetireless assault so that you
know vision of you know the treethat is you know sort of
perched out there and I and Iwas experiencing some of that of
(22:05):
just everything coming at meand this sense of maybe I need
to let maybe I need to get outof this situation where um it
just is constantly pushing meand maybe that's not maybe
that's not best for me.
So um and then I'll I can I'llread the I I also like the the
(22:30):
black eyed susan I I think of itas my sort of girl power poem.
Let's see where it's oh wellnow you have to read it I know
it's my favorite okay so it'scalled Black Eyed Susan.
Oh really you thought that youcould keep me down by covering
me with inches of concrete Iwill crack your confidence and
(22:50):
rise up right through the middleof your nonsense.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I love that it's this is the art so oh the art is
just spectacular good I know nowwe're gonna just have to get
the book for the art but I dolove metaphors.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Oh the poem yeah hey for our listeners she's showing
us pictures from her book whichif you go over over to our
YouTube channel you'll be ableto see it but this the art in
this is just beautiful justbeautiful um so many women
describe midlife as a burningdown of what no longer fits for
them and in your poem Scorchedwhich maybe you can read that
(23:28):
you describe the collapse andthen the smallest green sprout
of renewal which is kind of whatI think about the black eyed
Susan right pushing up but whatgreen sprouts moments do you see
women overlooking in the chaosof their midlife transitions.
Speaker (23:45):
Well the great thing about being a woman is that
you're incredibly resourcefulright and that you've got these
experiences and talents and thisI think it's sort of nonsense
that men say that women can't orthat people can't you know
multitask.
I I just think that's baloney.
(24:05):
We multitask all the time andso um so so women are have all
of this ability and I thinksometimes culturally we get
boxed in and are limited or toldthat we can't do things and
particularly you know the stagewe're at where our kids are you
know upward and or almost out ofthe house um we're freed up and
(24:30):
to be able to look insideourselves and say well what do I
want and what could I do?
And to be able to stay curiousand open and willing to try
things those are the best greensprouts to me.
I mean I'm I'm trying a wholebunch of things these days I
just did glass blowing and I'mtrying to do all these fun
things that I never had time todo when I was doing more
(24:52):
corporate stuff.
And I love it.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
It's really fun I mean I'm not going to be a glass
blower but I who knows or had agreat time a poem writer either
we hear that a lot though Imean when with our podcast casts
we hear um women in midlifejust trying new things and or
either trying brand new thingslike that or they're going back
(25:17):
to their childhood right askingthemselves what did I enjoy when
I was a young girl or when Iwas in my 20s what did I used to
do and finding their way backto that person.
Yeah kind of a coming home Ithink is what our last guest um
described it as and it can bereally fun and powerful
(25:39):
empowering right for us to dothat.
Yeah.
Speaker (25:43):
Well and to take you know I'm still advising small
companies and so to be able tojust take on the projects for me
that I really love and I feelpassionate either I particularly
love the founder and theirvision or the product I think is
particularly interesting orwhatever it is, it's to be able
to take my experiences I'm onthe board of two nonprofits
(26:07):
feeding San Diego, whichneedless to say with all the
SNAP issues this year has beenvery um important and value.
Yeah it feels good to beinvolved with something like
that.
And then I'm also now on theboard of an organization called
Empowered Endings, the EmpoweredEndings Foundation and they do
support and care for caregiversaround the end of life.
(26:30):
So making sure that you knowboth practitioners nurses
hospice death duals physiciansand family members that they
have good resources andeducation and so you know to be
able to be able to use thethings that I have done and you
(26:51):
know your listeners have donemany many years of cool and
important things and then to beable to go okay now got these
skills in my toolbox how am Igonna make the world better?
How am I gonna improve mycommunity?
How am I gonna give back Ithink that that's such an
important and fun way to findmeaning and it feels so good.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
And so that yeah I completely agree.
It can it can be fun and thisis the message that we send all
the time that midlife is not adeath sentence midlife is
actually a wonderful time in ourlives where we get to redefine
we need to come we get to comehome we have more time for
ourselves um and it can bereally really exciting.
(27:37):
And and I love what you'redoing.
I can't wait to get my hands onthe book and read all of the
poems because I'm a very visualperson as the audience knows by
now um we we're running out oftime but we did start the
podcast by talking about um theintroduction in your book.
So I want to come to theepilogue that you wrote in your
(28:00):
book one unexpected gift of lossis clarity.
And midlife often delivers thatsame clarity but sometimes it
can deliver it in a painful wayand I'm wondering what clarity
this chapter of your life givesyou that you might not have seen
otherwise.
Speaker (28:22):
Certainly with the loss of my sister the notion that
isn't so surprising is life isshort and you don't know and she
died so suddenly at 46.
And therefore it's this don'tput things off if there's
something that one wants to doyou know be it a you know
(28:43):
project or work-wise or travelor writing a book that that this
is a really important time tobe doing it and to be leaving
behind whatever it is that weall want to leave behind and
have and have the the sort ofmeaning and beauty that is
(29:04):
associated with that kind oflife.
I think that's where we wereally do find our joy.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
We don't know how long our runway is do we and it
it's time for us to take backit's time to take care of
ourselves it's time to come homefind joy love that you
mentioned that um it's just timeI guess we'll leave it there.
Speaker (29:29):
It's just time yeah your final lines of your book
say grow wild bloom brightlisten carefully it feels like
that's a prescription right whatyou know what are you gonna do
in midlife where where did thosewords come from and what does
that mean to you so in writingthe book I felt like I well I I
(29:58):
started out by saying let's gowalk through the garden of my
imagination and so it sort ofends the walk by with something
a little bit poetic that bringsit back to this notion of you
know do what you want to do bebe yourself be be that bright
wildflower be everything thatyou possibly can be and and
(30:22):
don't forget and listen toyourself listen to the to the
universe and do it now and sothat's my hope for people is
that they feel more comfortabletaking the kinds of risks that
we all have to take to really beourselves and shine as big and
(30:42):
bright as we can and that we arewise enough to listen to
ourselves to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
That's beautiful it is beautiful and I we always ask
our guests the very lastquestion what the best piece of
advice you've ever received Ifeel like that could be best
best piece of advice I've I'vereceived this week.
Speaker (31:04):
So um but we will ask you the reverse what is the best
piece of advice you have everreceived I think that the best
piece of advice was from afriend of mine in high school
who introduced me to this notionof taking care of my body and
um which sounds so funny but Ithink when you're a teenager
(31:28):
you're not necessarily thinkingabout these things.
And she got me on a really goodpath that we have this one body
to take care of this one sortof spirit and soul and and to
put our time and energy into it.
And I'm really grateful thatI'm sure she has no idea that
she had that kind of impact butit really changed how I thought
(31:49):
about things and I think thenotion of self-care is so
critical because if one can takecare of themselves then they
are in the position to bothexpress themselves but also take
care of others and give backand that's really important for
resilience and making meaningand beautiful I also think it's
(32:14):
timely right as you startthinking about what's what are
your intentions for next yearand how are you going to move
into the new year and what doesthat look like really taking
care of who you are body mindand soul um that's a beautiful
way to to end this it's like Ithink this might be our last
podcast recording this year.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah I think it's a great way to end the year.
So this is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
We call it radical self-care um so and not you know
going to the spa for a weekalthough that sounds really
great um but really taking careof yourself and the time is a
day out cut a habit is so yeahyeah yeah because we matter we
matter and we're worthy so wehave this one precious life
(33:02):
exactly Lang what a joy thankyou so much for bringing your
wisdom your experience your youknow your spirit and mind to
this work um I think it'sbeautiful and we really
appreciate you taking the timeto be with us today.
Speaker (33:18):
Thank you Lang you and thank you for what you're doing.
It's great for all of us womento be getting your insights so
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Thank you.
Yeah thank you so much andlisteners until we meet again
that's a wrap go find joy in thejourney.
Take care thank you forlistening to the Medovia
Menopause podcast.
If you enjoyed today's showplease give it a thumbs up
subscribe for future episodesleave a review and share this
(33:46):
episode with a friend.
Modovia is out to change thenarrative learn more at
medovia.com that's M I D O V I Adot com
Welcome to the MiDOViA Menopause Podcast, your
trusted source for informationabout menopause and midlife.
Join us each episode as we havegreat conversations with great
people.
Tune in and enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey everyone, welcome back.
Today we're diving into aconversation that feels
especially powerful for women inmidlife.
This is the season where somany of us are navigating
change, loss, reinvention, andthe quiet unraveling and
rebuilding of what happensinside.
And our guest today is LaingRikkers.
(00:36):
Laing is the author of MorningLeaves, which is a stunning
collection of poems andbotanical art that she wrote in
the early mornings following thesudden loss of her sister
during COVID.
Morning Leaves is a book aboutgrief, but equally a book about
becoming, about what happenswhen life cracks us open and
invites us to grow in a newdirection.
(00:57):
You know, what makes Laing'swork so resonant from midlife is
the honesty in her metaphors.
She writes of being a plum treecarrying generational memory, a
cactus protecting its softinner core, a black-eyed Susan
rising through the concrete,which happened to be my favorite
one, and a sprout emerging fromthe ashes.
(01:18):
These are the emotionallandscapes so many women walk
through during this stage oflife.
Moments of burnout, resilience,awakening, tenderness, and
profound clarity.
Midlife asks us to let go ofold identities, to listen more
deeply, to reconnect with ourintuition, and pay attention to
what truly matters.
(01:39):
Morning Leave offers a way toname these seasons, to see
ourselves in nature, and toremember that we're not alone in
the transition.
Laing's story is a reminderthat healing isn't linear,
creativity can be a lifeline,and the second half of life can
blossom in ways we neverexpected.
I'm so grateful to have herhere today.
(01:59):
Lang, welcome.
Speaker (02:01):
Thank you for having me.
I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah.
So your dedication cracked meopen and whispered today, now,
is something many of midlifewomen feel even without a
specific loss.
So, how do you see grief ormajor life changes as a mid as a
midlife awakening?
A moment that forces us toreassess priorities, identify
(02:27):
what we want, and look at whatwe what the second half of life
looks like.
How do you what what were youwhat did you experience there?
Speaker (02:36):
Well, in the dedication of my book, I was referencing
the death of my sister.
And that was for me a veryparticular kind of wake-up call.
And it you know coincided withmy being in midlife.
And so the whole experience oflosing her and opening of the
(03:00):
sort of door to self-reflectionthat that kind of a loss brings
uh happened to coincide with mybeing, you know, at this at this
particular stage of life.
And it was um a realopportunity to reflect on who I
had been, what I'd been doing,what I'd been putting up with,
(03:21):
what I needed to let go of andmove away from.
And the way in which my sisterdied very suddenly, I think also
was this um particular wake-upcall of like, do it now.
That was the that was the theurgency there of what are you
waiting for?
Like, get with a program,girlfriend.
(03:43):
You need to clean up a fewthings here.
And you've been doing somethings that are really not
aligned with your values and notum not serving you.
And so um, let's really diginto what I did, and I'm not
sure that I was conscious thatthis is what I was doing, but
now that I've had some distancefrom the whole experience, I
think I really was saying tomyself, we really need to look
(04:07):
at all of who you are and whatyou're doing and what you care
about and and do a little bit ofrealignment here.
And so I I was able to put itout in the botanical metaphors
that I did.
I don't know that I was braveenough to do it more directly
than that, but my hope is thatum the metaphor also makes it
(04:31):
more accessible and uh useful toother people.
Somehow so precise.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I love metaphors.
So um I actually haven't had anopportunity to read your whole
book of poems.
So I'm looking forward to doingthat um and was excited to just
read through kind of cliffnotes uh that Kim sent my way.
I'm I'm wondering though, umyou mentioned that you had a
moment where you thought, who amI to publish poetry and art?
(05:02):
And I think um, you know,because your background wasn't
in writing, right?
It was a career in business forthose of you that aren't
familiar with her work.
Um, and I think many midlifewomen have that new identity
that they're adopting or the newcoat, if you will, that they're
putting on at this differentstage of life.
(05:23):
And it can feel awkward.
It's like a new pair of shoes,right?
You put in a new pair of shoesand it feels a little bit
strange because it's not,they're not broken in yet,
right?
Um, and I'm wondering if youcan kind of take us through how
you navigated through thatdiscomfort of pursuing something
different when your oldidentity really matched and
(05:45):
aligned with what people thoughtyou were, if that makes sense.
And just to kind of help othersthrough that same stage.
Speaker (05:53):
Yes.
Well, I had a little bit of thebenefit of the COVID bubble.
So I my sister died in Decemberof 19, screaving, then
lockdown, the isolation, and Istarted writing.
And um I both had a little bitmore time, and it was, and the
world was so different andquiet, right, at that moment.
(06:17):
So the writing part, eventhough it was unfamiliar to me
as a practice, um, I had thesort of space and privacy, maybe
you'd say, to be able to dothat.
And similarly, when I started,so what happened was I I started
writing in the mornings and Ihadn't, I wasn't intending to
(06:40):
write a book to begin with, butmy sister had died um with a
nine-year-old daughter.
And so I knew that she had notshared with her daughter
everything as a mom that shewould have wanted to.
So I was really um keenly awareof the idea that I might have
things to share with my own kidsand what would those be.
(07:02):
And and this, mind you, wasright when we were all hearing
about people dropping dead inItaly and soccer game.
This was a very intense timefor everyone.
And I just had the additionallayer of the of the grief.
So I had written, startedorganizing my my pobes really to
(07:23):
type them up to give to mychildren, thinking that maybe
this would shed some light onwho I was, and I wanted them to
know me.
God forbid something happenedto me.
And in doing that, like I saidearlier, there there seemed to
be something more universalthere than just my own story.
And so I started sharing itwith some other friends who are
(07:47):
professional writers.
And is there something here?
What do you think?
And I I think it really wasthat privacy of COVID.
I was very uncomfortable withthe idea of moving in this
direction.
I I did have a very particularidentity, and this was not it.
And so, and it was uh I mean, Iwas been in private equity in
(08:13):
New York, and it was veryserious and very male-dominated,
and very um particular.
And and then I had this book ofyou know, poetry about trees
and spirituality, and it feltuncomfortable to reveal myself
that way.
And so um, every time I had adoubt, somehow the universe just
(08:36):
kept giving me these signalswhere I would read something or
someone would say something, andI just it felt like
breadcrumbs.
I was like, oh, I guess I haveto keep going.
And I kept going and I gotencouragement from friends who
said, no, no, no, you should youshould keep going.
Maybe you would add in anintroduction, or maybe you you
know try this, or try you know,they gave me some suggestions
(08:57):
along the way, but I had theability to to then keep moving
forward, but it it was wildlyuncomfortable.
And I I have an immense respectfor artists because when you
put your work out there and it'sreally personal, you're so
vulnerable.
And I and I didn't realize andI think that's true for any kind
(09:19):
of artist, a musician oranyone.
And so I I would say to yourlisteners who, if they are
moving in this direction, thatthat discomfort is very normal.
And yet if you push through itand you get to the other side,
it's also so satisfying andrewarding.
And to find the connection withpeople who identify with it,
(09:43):
even if it's just a couple ofpeople, is really meaningful.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah.
I love the idea of breadcrumbsthat you followed them.
And I um I think April and Iexperienced this in the work
that we do because if we didn'tfollow them, it would haunt us.
Like we have to follow thispassion that we have in our
hearts around menopause inmidlife.
And if we didn't, I don't thinkwe we both wouldn't know what
we would be doing right now,right?
(10:09):
And you kept following the sortof your heart in this space and
gave yourself permission tothink outside the box to do
something different.
Um, when you look back now,what do you think about the
courage that it took for you todo that?
Speaker (10:30):
I'm really glad that I listened to my sort of inner
compass, I would say.
And that was really part of thejourney was the finding and
listening to that compass.
And so I'm very, very glad thatI did it.
And it still looks and feelsscary.
(10:52):
And I've got the second editionof the book coming out in
March, and it's scary all overagain.
So I think that that's justpart of speaking your truth in
the world and trying to be ashonest with yourself as you
possibly can means that you areexposed in a certain way.
(11:14):
And I believe that it's worthdoing that, but it doesn't mean
that it doesn't feel scary atall.
That's not scary, right?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Or easy.
Can you talk about what youadded to the book for this
second edition?
Because I think that's probablyone of the favorite parts um of
of your of your book to me.
It's where I was like, okay, Itotally get this now.
Speaker (11:36):
Sure.
So the first edition of thebook I can show you, this is the
first edition, and it's calledMorning Leads Reflections on
Lost, Grief, and Connection.
And the second edition, I havea new publisher, and she was
brilliant.
She at first we started talkingabout the book, and I said, you
know, are we thinking aboutthis as a grief gift book, which
(11:57):
is just how it's really been inthe world?
And she said, Yes, but this isactually a joy book.
And I was like, Oh interestingsame coin flip side.
And it opened up this wholedifferent way of seeing things
(12:18):
and thinking that was reallyhelpful.
And so the other thing that wasimportant to both her and me
was that right now there's somuch grief culturally.
It's not just death grief,there's political and
environmental and et cetera, etcetera.
So we wanted to open up theaperture to talk about all kinds
(12:41):
of loss.
So there's a preface now thatis fairly brief, but it opens up
this idea of loss in thebroader sense, and that in order
to find joy, it is available toall of us, but it's a choice
and that it takes work and thatit is effort.
And it's not the sort ofsparkle of happiness, it's that
(13:06):
very deliberate decision to liveaccording to you know what you
view as you know, sort ofintegrity and values, and that
in doing that you really canfind a deeper sense of joy.
And then it has so that's thefirst part that's new.
(13:26):
There is one new poem.
Um, there's a bunch of new art.
I worked with an incredibleartist named Kelly Leehee
Ratting, and she did new art forthe second edition as well.
And so there's new poem, andthen there's an epilogue that is
sort of the five-yearreflection on my experience of
(13:47):
having gone through this, andyou know, relevant to a lot of
things that we've chatted about,this question of well, who did
I become and why did I becomethat in going through this
process?
I mean, as somebody who Ireally never, I was not somebody
who had writing a book on theirbucket list.
This was not part of the planat all.
(14:07):
And yet it has turned out to beone of the more important
pivotal things that I've done,and I feel is important for me
as in my growth as a person, andthen also hopefully, you know,
the impact I can have in helpingother people get closer to
(14:30):
understanding themselves andhaving the opportunity to
express themselves too.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Just out of curiosity, were you a writer in
the sense of writing every day,journaling?
Did you have um, I guess I willsay experience with writing,
but uh just from a personalperspective, were you a writer
before you picked up the pen tostart this project?
Speaker (14:54):
No, I really wasn't.
I wasn't somebody who everjournaled.
I wasn't very comfortablewriting.
I mean, I'd done schoolwriting, but the kind of writing
I had done in school wasalways, you know, classic
grammar and very boxed in rightor wrong.
And, you know, unlike how mychildren learned to write, which
(15:15):
they Columbia Writers Programor get your ideas out on the
paper and we'll clean it up.
It was very, very differentfrom how I was taught writing.
And I was certainly influencedby their English classes going
through high school, but it wasuh Julie Cameron's artist way
that got me writing everymorning when COVID started and I
(15:38):
had a little bit more time.
I really wanted to do somethingcreative.
And so I had thought, well,maybe I'll make jewelry or
sculpt.
And I think had it not beenlocked down, I would have taken
a class or done something, but Ihad no skills and no tools and
no experience.
So I really needed to dosomething else.
(15:59):
So I started writing.
And if you've read um theartist's way, her primary
suggestion is morning pages,which is writing three pages
every morning before speaking ordoing anything else.
And that was where it allstarted.
And actually, the title,Morning Leaves, is also a nod to
morning pages and play on wordsof mourning and morning grief,
(16:24):
and leaves the tree and leavesof books and leaving and
staying, and so that was whatthat's I love that.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
I love that you um I love the story.
I mean that you weren't even awriter and you sat down with
blank pages.
I think that in and of itselftakes bravery, frankly.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Um, because so many people just won't, because it's
so uncomfortable to look at ablank page and not know where to
start.
And you also talk aboutaccessing a half-conscious state
through your morning writing,right?
A place where that deepertruth, as you mentioned,
emerges.
Um, I I too sit in the quiet atthe very, very early, now
(17:03):
earlier than I would like.
Um, hours of the wee morning tojust sit in the quiet and sit
with it and write.
And there's no agenda.
Um, but I'm wondering, midlifeoften brings a shift from doing
to listening to being in thatspace.
(17:23):
And I'm wondering what thatquiet space helped you to hear
about yourself, yourself.
Uh, just maybe you can pull outa little bit of nuggets there
for us.
What did you hear when you satin that space?
Speaker (17:38):
So, particularly when working on this book, I was
highly influenced by spending alot of time outdoors because of
lockdown.
One of the only things that Iwas doing was going for walks
outside.
I live in Southern California,and it's really beautiful.
And having access to places onfoot that normally in Southern
(18:02):
California you would never beable to walk, I was able to see
and appreciate this beautifulnature.
And I don't know if youremember how clear the skies
were.
I mean, not having anypollution meant that the skies
were this, you know, crystalclear electric blue and the
(18:22):
flowering trees and plants andthe vistas.
We could see the ocean, wecould see mountains.
It was just extraordinary.
So I was really flooded withthose images.
And I don't know how to explainthis better than just how it
was.
I would wake up every morningand just have this sense of
(18:44):
today I am a palm tree.
And then I would think aboutthe elements of a palm tree and
where they aligned with thingsthat I was thinking and
experiencing.
And it just kept going dayafter day after day.
I would have these differentsort of almost um auditory kind
of visions that I would justhear things that I would write
(19:09):
down.
And I I felt like a lot of itwas just channeling something
that it wasn't very consciouswriting.
I I talk about the introductionand the conclusion were like
post-coffee writing, which werevery intellectual and more
academic kind of writing.
The poetry was really in thisvery fuzzy state where I was
(19:32):
more just letting things flowthrough me.
And some of it was completegarbage, and some of it turned
out to be really special to me.
So it there was a little bit ofeddying in that as well.
But it I do think that that isa very special state of mind to
(19:53):
be in, and when one can berelaxed and calm and tap into
it.
I don't know where it all comesfrom, but but it but one can
learn things about themselvesthat is maybe a bit less
varnished than other times ofthe day.
(20:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And I think you, you know, you mentioned joy.
Um I think that it can bringjoy.
You know it brings a little bitof that quiet peace and joy to
the day when you can enter thatcreative space versus that
intellectual doing space.
Yeah.
(20:37):
And I imagine that there'sprobably studies done somewhere
that can attest to the dopaminerush maybe that we get um when
we do that.
But um I love that.
And you mentioned imaginingyourself as as the palm tree as
you were on your walks.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe metaphors in your book?
As Kim, you said your favoritewas which one?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
My favorite um was the black eyed Susan rising
through the concrete.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, because I think that we could use I I love
metaphors and I think that wecan use metaphors um to help
other women feel like thoseemotional archetypes, right?
That women move through inmidlife.
Speaker (21:18):
So can you talk a little bit about your I'll first
I'll read the poem because it'sI think it's relevant to what I
was grappling with at least toa certain degree at that time.
So it's called Palm I'm askinny palm on the cliff's edge
heavy winds beating on me dayafter day pushing me to their
will bending flexing enduring Iam marveled at for the shape
(21:43):
that I take on arched anddistorted tired I'm sorry arched
and contorted distorted by thetireless assault so that you
know vision of you know the treethat is you know sort of
perched out there and I and Iwas experiencing some of that of
(22:05):
just everything coming at meand this sense of maybe I need
to let maybe I need to get outof this situation where um it
just is constantly pushing meand maybe that's not maybe
that's not best for me.
So um and then I'll I can I'llread the I I also like the the
(22:30):
black eyed susan I I think of itas my sort of girl power poem.
Let's see where it's oh wellnow you have to read it I know
it's my favorite okay so it'scalled Black Eyed Susan.
Oh really you thought that youcould keep me down by covering
me with inches of concrete Iwill crack your confidence and
(22:50):
rise up right through the middleof your nonsense.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
I love that it's this is the art so oh the art is
just spectacular good I know nowwe're gonna just have to get
the book for the art but I dolove metaphors.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Oh the poem yeah hey for our listeners she's showing
us pictures from her book whichif you go over over to our
YouTube channel you'll be ableto see it but this the art in
this is just beautiful justbeautiful um so many women
describe midlife as a burningdown of what no longer fits for
them and in your poem Scorchedwhich maybe you can read that
(23:28):
you describe the collapse andthen the smallest green sprout
of renewal which is kind of whatI think about the black eyed
Susan right pushing up but whatgreen sprouts moments do you see
women overlooking in the chaosof their midlife transitions.
Speaker (23:45):
Well the great thing about being a woman is that
you're incredibly resourcefulright and that you've got these
experiences and talents and thisI think it's sort of nonsense
that men say that women can't orthat people can't you know
multitask.
I I just think that's baloney.
(24:05):
We multitask all the time andso um so so women are have all
of this ability and I thinksometimes culturally we get
boxed in and are limited or toldthat we can't do things and
particularly you know the stagewe're at where our kids are you
know upward and or almost out ofthe house um we're freed up and
(24:30):
to be able to look insideourselves and say well what do I
want and what could I do?
And to be able to stay curiousand open and willing to try
things those are the best greensprouts to me.
I mean I'm I'm trying a wholebunch of things these days I
just did glass blowing and I'mtrying to do all these fun
things that I never had time todo when I was doing more
(24:52):
corporate stuff.
And I love it.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
It's really fun I mean I'm not going to be a glass
blower but I who knows or had agreat time a poem writer either
we hear that a lot though Imean when with our podcast casts
we hear um women in midlifejust trying new things and or
either trying brand new thingslike that or they're going back
(25:17):
to their childhood right askingthemselves what did I enjoy when
I was a young girl or when Iwas in my 20s what did I used to
do and finding their way backto that person.
Yeah kind of a coming home Ithink is what our last guest um
described it as and it can bereally fun and powerful
(25:39):
empowering right for us to dothat.
Yeah.
Speaker (25:43):
Well and to take you know I'm still advising small
companies and so to be able tojust take on the projects for me
that I really love and I feelpassionate either I particularly
love the founder and theirvision or the product I think is
particularly interesting orwhatever it is, it's to be able
to take my experiences I'm onthe board of two nonprofits
(26:07):
feeding San Diego, whichneedless to say with all the
SNAP issues this year has beenvery um important and value.
Yeah it feels good to beinvolved with something like
that.
And then I'm also now on theboard of an organization called
Empowered Endings, the EmpoweredEndings Foundation and they do
support and care for caregiversaround the end of life.
(26:30):
So making sure that you knowboth practitioners nurses
hospice death duals physiciansand family members that they
have good resources andeducation and so you know to be
able to be able to use thethings that I have done and you
(26:51):
know your listeners have donemany many years of cool and
important things and then to beable to go okay now got these
skills in my toolbox how am Igonna make the world better?
How am I gonna improve mycommunity?
How am I gonna give back Ithink that that's such an
important and fun way to findmeaning and it feels so good.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
And so that yeah I completely agree.
It can it can be fun and thisis the message that we send all
the time that midlife is not adeath sentence midlife is
actually a wonderful time in ourlives where we get to redefine
we need to come we get to comehome we have more time for
ourselves um and it can bereally really exciting.
(27:37):
And and I love what you'redoing.
I can't wait to get my hands onthe book and read all of the
poems because I'm a very visualperson as the audience knows by
now um we we're running out oftime but we did start the
podcast by talking about um theintroduction in your book.
So I want to come to theepilogue that you wrote in your
(28:00):
book one unexpected gift of lossis clarity.
And midlife often delivers thatsame clarity but sometimes it
can deliver it in a painful wayand I'm wondering what clarity
this chapter of your life givesyou that you might not have seen
otherwise.
Speaker (28:22):
Certainly with the loss of my sister the notion that
isn't so surprising is life isshort and you don't know and she
died so suddenly at 46.
And therefore it's this don'tput things off if there's
something that one wants to doyou know be it a you know
(28:43):
project or work-wise or travelor writing a book that that this
is a really important time tobe doing it and to be leaving
behind whatever it is that weall want to leave behind and
have and have the the sort ofmeaning and beauty that is
(29:04):
associated with that kind oflife.
I think that's where we wereally do find our joy.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
We don't know how long our runway is do we and it
it's time for us to take backit's time to take care of
ourselves it's time to come homefind joy love that you
mentioned that um it's just timeI guess we'll leave it there.
Speaker (29:29):
It's just time yeah your final lines of your book
say grow wild bloom brightlisten carefully it feels like
that's a prescription right whatyou know what are you gonna do
in midlife where where did thosewords come from and what does
that mean to you so in writingthe book I felt like I well I I
(29:58):
started out by saying let's gowalk through the garden of my
imagination and so it sort ofends the walk by with something
a little bit poetic that bringsit back to this notion of you
know do what you want to do bebe yourself be be that bright
wildflower be everything thatyou possibly can be and and
(30:22):
don't forget and listen toyourself listen to the to the
universe and do it now and sothat's my hope for people is
that they feel more comfortabletaking the kinds of risks that
we all have to take to really beourselves and shine as big and
(30:42):
bright as we can and that we arewise enough to listen to
ourselves to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
That's beautiful it is beautiful and I we always ask
our guests the very lastquestion what the best piece of
advice you've ever received Ifeel like that could be best
best piece of advice I've I'vereceived this week.
Speaker (31:04):
So um but we will ask you the reverse what is the best
piece of advice you have everreceived I think that the best
piece of advice was from afriend of mine in high school
who introduced me to this notionof taking care of my body and
um which sounds so funny but Ithink when you're a teenager
(31:28):
you're not necessarily thinkingabout these things.
And she got me on a really goodpath that we have this one body
to take care of this one sortof spirit and soul and and to
put our time and energy into it.
And I'm really grateful thatI'm sure she has no idea that
she had that kind of impact butit really changed how I thought
(31:49):
about things and I think thenotion of self-care is so
critical because if one can takecare of themselves then they
are in the position to bothexpress themselves but also take
care of others and give backand that's really important for
resilience and making meaningand beautiful I also think it's
(32:14):
timely right as you startthinking about what's what are
your intentions for next yearand how are you going to move
into the new year and what doesthat look like really taking
care of who you are body mindand soul um that's a beautiful
way to to end this it's like Ithink this might be our last
podcast recording this year.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah I think it's a great way to end the year.
So this is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
We call it radical self-care um so and not you know
going to the spa for a weekalthough that sounds really
great um but really taking careof yourself and the time is a
day out cut a habit is so yeahyeah yeah because we matter we
matter and we're worthy so wehave this one precious life
(33:02):
exactly Lang what a joy thankyou so much for bringing your
wisdom your experience your youknow your spirit and mind to
this work um I think it'sbeautiful and we really
appreciate you taking the timeto be with us today.
Speaker (33:18):
Thank you Lang you and thank you for what you're doing.
It's great for all of us womento be getting your insights so
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Thank you.
Yeah thank you so much andlisteners until we meet again
that's a wrap go find joy in thejourney.
Take care thank you forlistening to the Medovia
Menopause podcast.
If you enjoyed today's showplease give it a thumbs up
subscribe for future episodesleave a review and share this
(33:46):
episode with a friend.
Modovia is out to change thenarrative learn more at
medovia.com that's M I D O V I Adot com
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