After Andersonville: The Sultana and the Cruelest Twist of the Civil War

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Deep into the night on April 27, 1865, the boilers on the steamboat Sultana exploded, triggering the worst maritime disaster in US history. More than a thousand people died, either from the explosion itself or trying to survive in the freezing cold Mississippi River afterward. The disaster was tragic well beyond the number of casualties as most of the dead were Union soldiers returning home from Confederate prison camps at the end of the Civil War. In this episode, Jeff Kollath, the executive director of the Sultana Disaster Museum, gives a detailed recounting of the events that led to the Sultana’s demise, from the corrupted boarding process at Vicksburg, to the conditions on the boat before the boilers exploded, to the immediate impact of the explosion, and how people scrambled to survive. We finish the episode with a discussion about the Sultana Disaster Museum’s plans to expand their ability to tell the story of the disaster and its victims. 

Episode Transcript

Jeff Kollath (00:00):
While they had agreed to 1,000 there's a sense,

(00:02):
there's some miscommunication,and some other people that are
involved on the federalgovernment side, and eventually
over 2,000 soldiers are put onto the boat. There are two other
steamboats that are at thelanding at the same time, and
the second one gets only a fewand the third one leaves empty.
So there was room for theseother boats to have on there.
But obviously, Hatch did nothave the deal with those
captains, he had the deal withMason, and so the boat is

(00:23):
supremely overloaded at thattime. But it's also important to
remember that that wasn't thecause of the eventual disaster.

Dean Klinkenberg (00:28):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler

(01:01):
podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more

(01:22):
information on the Mississippiat
mississippivalleytraveler.com.
Let's get going. Welcome toEpisode 74 of the Mississippi
Valley Traveler podcast. Deepinto the night on April 27, 1865
the boilers on the steamboatSultana exploded, triggering the

(01:45):
worst maritime disaster in UShistory. All disasters are
tragic, of course, but theSultana disaster is the worst,
not just because of the numberof people who died, which was
well over 1,000 but also becauseof the circumstances. Most of
the dead were soldiers of theUnion Army heading home at the
end of the Civil War after beingreleased from Confederate prison

(02:07):
camps.
In this episode, I talked withJeff Kollath, Executive Director
of the Sultana Disaster Museum,which is the only museum
dedicated to preserving thememory of that fateful night.
Since the museum was founded,it's been housed in a small
storefront in Marion, Arkansas,but they are now in the process

(02:28):
of moving to a much bigger spacethat will allow them to tell the
story of the Sultana morecompletely. Fundraising for this
ambitious move is still inprogress, so please consider
supporting them with a donationso they can preserve the stories
of those affected by thisdisaster.
So in this episode, Jeff brieflydescribes the history of the

(02:49):
boat, the Sultana. Then we gothrough a detailed sequence
describing the boat's fatefullast journey. As part of this
discussion, Jeff talks aboutsome recent scholarship that has
more completely and accuratelydocumented the number of people
who boarded the boat and whodied. In fact, they have a
website. On their website, theyhave a database you can search,

(03:11):
looking up the names of peoplewho boarded the boat and finding
out their fate.
I suspect many of you alreadyknow something about the
Sultana. If you listen to thispodcast regularly. You probably
know something about MississippiRiver history. I think you'll
find there's still some detailsthat Jeff covers that may be new
to you. And still it also amazesme that so many people have

(03:34):
still never heard this story. Solet's help get that out.
Thanks to those of you whocontinue to support me through
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(03:55):
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and there you can help supportmy caffeine habit with, you
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you're in the mood for. The shownotes and all previous episodes

(04:20):
you can also find at that sameaddress,
MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast.
You can binge all previous 73episodes, or you can go through
and and pick and choose the oneswhose content strikes you as the
most interesting. And now let'sget on with the interview.

(04:51):
Jeff Kollath is a historian andExecutive Director of the
Sultana Disaster Museum inMarion, Arkansas, and we are
here to talk about this infamousand probably not as well known
disaster as it should be. Juston the anniversary of its
demise. Jeff, welcome to thepodcast.

Jeff Kollath (05:12):
Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Dean Klinkenberg (05:15):
I thought we would just kind of have a
general discussion and trace thetimeline of this boat and give
sense, give folks a sense ofwhat the sequence of events
were. Why don't we just start bytalking about the boat itself,
the Sultana had been operatingon the rivers for a little
while. Give us a sense aboutwhat kind of boat it was and
what it what it transported,what its role was on the on the

(05:36):
river at that time.

Jeff Kollath (05:37):
Sure. Well, it was the Sultana. It was actually the
fifth boat named the Sultanathat was on the river went back,
you know, 10, 15 years or so,give or take, was built in
Cincinnati, Litherbury Boatyardson the Ohio River. And there's,
you know, other boats built asimilar design at the same time.

(05:59):
It's pretty remarkable how thesethings were built at that time,
considering their size. TheSultana was 280 feet long, and
you know, like was it almostfour stories tall, 60 feet wide.
So it's not a tiny boat by anystretch of the imagination. So
seeing all of those things builtbefore modern conveniences is

(06:23):
pretty remarkable. And in theboat itself, you know, I mean,
really, no expense was sparedfor how it was outfitted. I
mean, yes, it was, was meant to,you know, transport people and
goods and animals and variousthings up and down the river. So
they, you, you bought tickets.
So there were rooms to stay in.
There was, you know, dininghall, saloon. There was a piano

(06:43):
in the ladies lounge. You know,the deck work and the railings
and things were very ornate. Andso it, mean, really, it was, it
was quite, quite a boat. I wouldthink when, especially when it
went into the water for thefirst time in 1863 to see it as
such. And you know, really, thesteamboat industry in the in the

(07:06):
on the Mississippi changeddramatically during the war,
most notably with the military.
United States military, beingable to essentially tell a
private a private concern, that,hey, it's cool that you're
carrying people, but now you gotto carry some of our stuff, and
some of our people too. And so,you know, really, when the river
was not in the hands of theUnion Army, which didn't, you

(07:30):
know, really the Anaconda Plan,and you know, kind of the taking
of the waterways around theConfederacy with Farragut coming
in in New Orleans, and thenobviously grant taking
Vicksburg, Memphis had fallenin, you know, 1862 and then
Vicksburg falling around Fourthof July, 1863 when the Union

(07:51):
Army is in control of everythingon the river. So steamboats then
are now opened up beyondVicksburg, all the way down to
New Orleans. So that New Orleansto St Louis run became pretty
common, and that's what theSultana did. And so I think the
boat was, you know, PrestonLodwick was the first captain

(08:12):
and co owner, and then theinfamous James Cass Mason, who
was the captain of the boat whenthe disaster occurred. You know,
how he the how each personmanaged the boat was certainly
different. And with Mason, whowas a younger guy, pretty brash,
known as being pretty recklesson the river, you know, he had

(08:34):
married well, and he was fatherin law, I think his last
father's law, his last name wasDozier had given him or Mason,
had bought into a boat namedafter his wife, the Rowena, and
had basically run the Rowenaground, and then was given the
command of the bell Memphis,which actually drag race style.

(08:56):
It's not drag racing, but I lovecalling it drag racing. Drag
raced the Sultana in the city ofAlton, you know, in 1863 before
he got took command of it, andthen he took command of it in
early 1864. And even though hesort of kept moving up and had
bought into the boat and had a25% ownership stake, he didn't

(09:17):
really change his behavior. AndI think that's really indicative
of how this disaster came to bewas, you know, Mason got himself
in the hole. You know, he wassomebody that, again, was
aggressive with how he, time wasmoney, so if he could push the
boat, he pushed it. When theriver is at flood stage, and you

(09:39):
see a wide expanse of two orthree mile wide river. He's
driving in straight lines. He'snot following the channel, even
if he might know where it is. Sohe's hitting snags. He's running
in the debris. He's running theboat in period of time of the
year when there's still ice onthe river, and ice can damage
the hull of your boat too, andknock holes in it. So he was

(10:00):
behind and had, you know, soldoff, he was at 25% sold off,
half of that sold off, half ofthat again, by the time he pulls
into Vicksburg in 1865 and it'sbecause he needed money to keep
it on the river. And so it's,it's sort of when all of these
things sort of coalesce and cometogether it makes for a terrible

(10:21):
story, obviously, with how itcomes out. But it's really
interesting to kind of learnabout the economics of riverboat
travel and river commerce atthat time, communication, how,
especially during the war, whenthe telegraph lines are cut in
the south and and how people arefinding out that live along the
river, are finding out what'sgoing on in the world, and it's

(10:42):
through steamboats. It's throughsteamboats pulling in along
shore and landings and sellingnewspapers or just Shouting,
shouting news from the boat tofarmers alongside the river,
whomever it might be, which isreally what the Sultana was
doing to share the news ofPresident Lincoln's
assassination so.

Dean Klinkenberg (11:01):
Right. I was gonna say like that that was a
lot of river folks learned ofLincoln's assassination from the
Sultana, right?

Jeff Kollath (11:08):
I mean, it's got the nickname "The messenger of
death" for doing that, and ithad black bunting draped on the
on the boat as it went down theriver, leaving Cairo on the 14th
of or, yeah, around the 14th ofApril, 1865. So it's, it's one

(11:29):
of those things where you knowthe river today. You know being
here. You know our museums inMarion. I'm currently in
Memphis. I live in Memphis. Yousee the river, you know, all the
time. And you know, we've beenat pretty we've had very low
water the last few years where,you know, two to three feet, and
sometimes as little as two tothree feet in the chain the main
channel. And the amount of, youknow, draw that's necessary for

(11:53):
these modern barges and boatsand things is pretty incredible.
But then to see the river atfull flood stage, like we see,
you know, every spring, which isthe way it was when the Sultana
was on the river in 1865, thischannel is in a different place,
but, but seeing it at its fullmajesty, it just is one of those

(12:16):
things where you see it, andit's like when you know, DeSoto
shows up and then, but peoplesee it for the first time, it is
really, I don't know how I'mgonna get across that.

Dean Klinkenberg (12:26):
Yeah, that's how i feel sometimes today.

Jeff Kollath (12:29):
And you know, in St Louis, and we have something
in common. We both went toschool at UW La Crosse, and we
both know the Upper Mississippiis a is a child is giving candy
land compared to the lowerMississippi, just in terms of
how it's controlled and thewater itself. And you know, silt
runs downhill. Not as silty upnorth as it is down here.

Dean Klinkenberg (12:53):
Silt and nitrate and phosphorus run
downhill. So, all right, so theboat that ends up in Vicksburg.
Tell me a little bit about howit ended up there and what was
going on. What was it there for?

Jeff Kollath (13:11):
So the boat leaves and goes from Cairo down to New
Orleans as part of its you know,usual, or St Louis to New
Orleans as part of its usualrun. It stops in Vicksburg on
the way down to New Orleans.
That's where Mason, there's someGene Salecker, who's sort of the
dean of Sultana historians, andhas written really, sort of the
definitive book, along withJerry Potter, a local lawyer

(13:33):
here in the Memphis area. Jerrywrote the first book about it in
the '80s, and then Gene haswritten about it several times
and and really, you know whatthe story begins on the way down
when, when Mason pulls intoVicksburg and sort of
reacquaints himself with thisguy named Reuben Hatch, who is
the quartermaster at at CampFisk, which is where the

(13:57):
prisoner exchanges is happening.
And so the Union prisoners ofwar from Andersonville and
Cahaba have made their way west,some by rail, some by boat, then
most mostly by rail, and thenhaving to walk the rest of the
way from Jackson, Mississippi toto Vicksburg, which is not a

(14:19):
short walk, mind you. And theseare guys that had been in POW
camps, in some businesses foryears, and injured, or poor
health, malnourished and so on.
And then, obviously, they whenthey get to Fisk, they're given
fresh clothes. They're eatingbetter than they have in a long
time. They have clean drinkingwater, better facilities. And
you know, Hatch and Mason arereally kind of a match made in

(14:42):
heaven in a lot of ways, interms of how they approach this
situation, which was the federalgovernment hiring private
steamboats to take men homeafter the war. This is after the
war, after Appomattox, afterhostilities had ended in the
east.
Obviously, Johnston and folks inNorth Carolina had a little bit

(15:05):
more to say about it, and didn'twap up until, I think, what the
24th of April, something likethat. But by and large,
everybody was figuring out a wayto get home. And, you know, the
federal government paying, Ibelieve it's eight with $8 for
an officer and three and aquarter for an enlisted men to

(15:25):
take them up the river. Youknow, Mason is knows that this
is a way for him to get somemoney in his pocket. But Hatch
is also looking for somebodythat he can work with to put a
little money in his pocket too.
And Hatch is a real is as asmuch of a scoundrel as Mason
might be for participating inthis scheme. Hatch is really the

(15:47):
bad, the baddest of the actorsin this and this is somebody
that has, you know, failedupwards, really, in every
position he had had in themilitary, through patronage,
through connections withPresident Lincoln, his brother
being in part of PresidentLincoln's fundraising and brain
trust when he was in Illinois.

(16:09):
And every time he would get introuble, he would always find a
way to get out of it. And nowhe's quartermaster at Camp Fisk
and and it's looking forsomebody that he can say, I'll
give you as many of these guysgoing home as I can, if you give
me x as part of that. And he waslooking for somebody that would

(16:30):
agree to that, and then Hatchpromises, and, you know, I'll
give you 1,000 men. Of course,obviously, the boat is, you
know, as we all know, not builtto hold that even though it is
260 feet long, but the capacityis only 376 and so. But they
may, you know, have a, you know,handshake deal, whatever, and

(16:54):
agree to it. And then Masoncompletes the journey, goes to
New Orleans, picks up somecivilian passengers, horses and
mules and sugar and pigs, orhogs and various things, and
then starts steaming backtowards Vicksburg, and pulls
into the landing at Vicksburg,where they start, eventually
they start to load the boat. AndGene, both Gene and Jerry go

(17:14):
into it in detail, especiallyGene. Gene's book of the loading
is so is so detailed in theresearch and work that he's done
to tell that story. So I reallyrecommend they go. It's his
book, 'Destruction of theSteamboat Sultana' is the name
of, it's the most recent one.
And essentially, you know,there's some while they had
agreed to 1000 there's a sense,there's some miscommunication,

(17:35):
and some other people that areinvolved on the federal
government side, and eventuallyover 2000 soldiers are put on to
the boat. There are two othersteamboats that are at the
landing at the same time, andthe second one gets only a few
and the third one leaves empty,so there was room for these
other boats to have on there.

(17:57):
But obviously, Hatch did nothave the deal with those
captains. He had the deal withMason, and so the boat is
supremely overloaded at thattime. But it's also important to
remember that that wasn't thecause of the eventual disaster,
the overload.

Dean Klinkenberg (18:11):
And it wasn't terribly unusual during wartime
for the army to overload boatspast their capacity anyway,
right?

Jeff Kollath (18:18):
Correct. Yeah. And so again, the 376 is, you know,
I don't know anybody that wouldturn down more people if they
thought of what was within thelimit. But I think what we see
here is the overloading justmakes the disaster.

Dean Klinkenberg (18:34):
And you mentioned Camp Fisk. So, like,
this was a sprawling temporarycamp just outside of the city of
Vicksburg, home to thousands ofmen who are just recently
released prisoners of war, forthe most part, whose health is
terrible as you said. Some ofthem have lost 40% or more of
their body weight. There areprobably a lot of them that were

(18:55):
anxious to get on a boat andstart making their way home as
well. I don't know if we haveany oral histories or anything
about people, soldiers who areboarding that boat, who didn't
really want to get on at thatpoint. I think probably a lot of
people just were anxious toempty out that camp and get back
to whatever normal existed after.

Jeff Kollath (19:16):
Sure, and yeah, absolutely. Chester Berry, you
know who was on the Sultana isreally the dean of collecting
these stories, and publishes hisbook in the 1880s around the
same time that the SultanaSurvivors Association chapters
are sort of affixing themselvesto G.A.R. posts and things
throughout the North and able tocollect these stories and

(19:38):
publish them, really, for thefirst time. And so yes, there's
a lot of enthusiasm to get home,but there's also a lot of
skepticism about the quality andcondition of the boat. And so
the way I always, you know,there's some great lines. And I
worked in military history atthe Wisconsin Veterans Museum in
Madison for a number of years,and worked extensively with

(19:59):
Vietnam veterans. And you knowthat we talk about going home
and catching the freedom birdback and, you know, obviously,
for most of the men and womenthat came home, they went over
by themselves, and they camehome by themselves. They were in
a fixed part of a unit. Butthere was this notion of seeing
that, seeing that airplane onthe tarmac and getting on and

(20:19):
feeling a sense of "ha" maybe,you know, we made it. And then
obviously, the the airlines andthe service providing those
comforts of home on the plane toget them home, back to San
Francisco or Seattle or whereverit might be. And then, obviously
the homecoming was a whole forsome, was a whole other story.
But for these men, you're youafter you've suffered in a POW

(20:41):
camp for an extensive period oftime. You're given some time at
Fisk, clean clothes. Like Isaid, clean clothes, food,
water. Conditions are better.
You know, some of them, youknow, still nursing some wounds
and things and some illnesses.
But mostly, you know, the ablebodied are on this boat. They're
not the infirmed by any stretch.
But then you get on a boat andyou have to struggle to find a

(21:07):
place to sleep or struggle tofind a place to sit, and
bathroom usage and latrines andshort notice and food and
supplies and clean drinkingwater and all that stuff is are
in short supply. And then youstill have to remember, there's
still civilians on the boat too,who paid money to have a room.

(21:27):
And, you know, again, Gene andJerry both do a good job of
talking about the people thatwere on the boat, but it always
kills me that there's, you know,a honeymooning couple from New
Orleans that's on the boat.
There's a minstrel troop that'sheaded north to Memphis.
There's, you know, officers andsoldiers who had been

(21:48):
convalescing after being woundedin New Orleans, taking the boat
back home and with theirfamilies too. So there are women
and children on the boat aswell. And so once they get
everybody on, you know, theystart steaming north. And I
think a lot of that, you know, alot of that hesitancy, begins to
go away, and then it's just, wejust got to make it through
this. Obviously, what many ofthe men and or most of the men

(22:10):
and most of the passengers didnot know was the work that was
done on the boiler there inVicksburg, as one of the boilers
had developed a leak. There arefour boilers on the boat and
required a patch. It wasrecommended that the boat not
leave. The patch was notrecommended, but Mason didn't

(22:33):
want that, it was time to go andmoney to be earned. And so, of
course, the irony of that isthat the patch boiler is not the
one that exploded, so.

Dean Klinkenberg (22:43):
Right. And, yeah, yeah. We'll get into the
cause and all that a bit later,too. But I'm curious to at the
so when this, when the boat isout of the port, when it's on
the way to Vicksburg, what's ourbest estimate right now about
the number of people who are onboard?

Jeff Kollath (22:58):
2,130.

Dean Klinkenberg (23:01):
That's pretty specific.

Jeff Kollath (23:02):
Yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (23:03):
And I remember reading that, I don't know if
this is true or not, but therewere, there was a story that the
was that the hurricane decksagged so much they had to
reinforce, or one of the deckssagged so much from all the
people they had to reinforce thedeck.

Jeff Kollath (23:16):
Yeah, it was, I mean, one of the struggles that
they had was distributing theweight, you know, evenly. And as
far as the numbers and thepeople that were on the boat. If
you go to our website,SultanaDisasterMuseum.com, we
have a complete database of thepassengers, known passengers,
that were on the boat. Andagain, kudos to Gene for doing

(23:37):
all that work. And it's not justa list of names, it's names you
know, where they mustered in,units served with, if we know
what happened to them after thewar, photos of their gravestones
and cemeteries are there, andpictures if available. So it's a
really incredible resource, butkeeping the weight distributed
was was certainly a challengethroughout the entire journey,

(24:00):
and especially, you know,steaming up from Vicksburg to
Memphis, which is where, youknow, at Memphis is where
they're offloading the hogs.
They're offloading the hogsheadsof sugar. So the cargo area
underneath the the boat is, youknow, is empty at that point in
time. So they're always worriedabout keeping the weight evenly
balanced, keeping the weightbalanced and keeping it level in

(24:22):
the water and not listing to oneside or the other. And part of
that is related to just, youknow, the boat wasn't in danger
of tipping over, certainly, butit's maintaining a level water
level that's level in theboilers, and making sure that
those those tubes, the tubularboiler, those tubes are covered
by the water. You know theanalogy, the analogy I always

(24:44):
think of when I was readingabout this, because, again, this
is something I didn't knowanything about really when I
started was the technologybehind it, you know, is akin to,
I like, when I talk to peopleabout it's like, it's like a
nuclear meltdown in a reactorcore. It's like, everything's
great as long as there's wateron top of those fuel rods, but

(25:06):
as soon as there's not water onthose fuel rods, it's going to
get real dicey, and obviously toa much more extreme level than
to the to the Sultana. But it'sa similar principle. You know,
it's like making with space inthose boilers, but also exposing
those, those the hot flueswithin the boilers themselves.
And then when that cold riverwater comes back on it, there's

(25:29):
it really and especially if youhave some issues with your
boiler, it really increase orthe the boiler itself, it really
increases the opportunity forsomething bad to happen.

Dean Klinkenberg (25:42):
So we have a drastically overloaded boat
carrying a lot more weight thanprobably the engines were
designed to push typically. Andon top of that, the river is
running high. It's spring, soit's flood stage. There's going
to be debris in the river. It'smoving quick. So, and on top of

(26:06):
that, we have just, you know,that corruption that involved in
the boarding process in thefirst place. So they're all
kinds of like bad omens at thebeginning of this trip. So they
get to Helena and a photographeris on shore and takes a picture

(26:26):
of the boat and the people onboard that time. What are you
when you see that picture? Whatdo you see?

Jeff Kollath (26:33):
Well, so it's we should explain. It's one of two
photos of the boat that exist.
So that's by far and away, thebest and the most famous. There
was another photo taken ofdistance of the boat in St Louis
as well, which you can see inthe museum. And it's around too.
But it's really, it's more ofjust to see the boat sort of at
full and just full profile. TheHelena photo. So it's incredible

(26:55):
for so many reasons, taken by aguy named Thomas W Banks, who
had a photography business. Whodid some interior design,
painting, various things inHelena. And he had been
documenting this the again, theriver at flood stage had been
documenting the flood in Helena,and he so he was on a high on

(27:16):
the bluff, really, at a high,high point outside the city, and
had been taking photos of whatthe city looked like with the
streets flooded. The Union Armywas an army of occupation. So
there was a number ofinteresting things there, and
really documenting what had beengoing on, what had been going on

(27:36):
in Helena, and then he sees thisoverloaded boat churning up the
river and coming into thelanding at Helena and is able to
capture this incrediblephotograph. And so, but when you
see the photo, there's always afew things that pop out
immediately, and then there'stwo things that, with a fine eye
that you look at, look at aphoto very closely. You can see

(28:00):
so the first thing is obviouslythe condition of the boat. The
condition of the boat, despitethe age of the photo and the
lack of clarity, it becomesabundantly clear that the boat
is in not good shape, and thatis evident by the and has been
misused, not not used it'sintended to be when it pulls

(28:20):
into Helena, and you can seethat on the paddle wheel
housing, two things stand outthere are holes cut. Theyr'e
knocked in the top of the paddlewheel housing and then staining
on the paddle wheel itself. Andthat is because the men had been
using that area as a latrine,because there was not access to
the latrine as it was intendedto have on the river. And so

(28:41):
that sticks out. There arepeople everywhere, stuck in
places where humans were notintended to be on that boat. And
so it's just a it's a mass ofhumanity that's there. There's
also sort of this ode to, Ialways think of what the boat
could have been, which is theantlers between on the cables

(29:03):
between the smoke stacks. Andthe antlers was a trophy, a
unofficial trophy on theMississippi River, given to the
boat that had could make the runfrom New Orleans to St Louis in
the fastest amount of time, orquick least amount of time. So
we're not talking hours here,obviously we're talking days.
And so we're, you know, roughlythree days and change. And the

(29:25):
Sultana had that record at thetime when it got to St Louis, it
was going to eventually have toturn those antlers over because
another boat had had taken thecrown. But it also was a
reminder of always, to me, it'severybody has become a reminder
of what the boat could have beenhad it been managed better. The

(29:46):
detail thing that has become afavorite thing of mine is on the
hurricane deck, there is astairway, and there's men that
are out there, and you noticeevery. So the boat is listing
ever slow slightly, the men seethe photographer and run to the
starboard side to get theirpicture made, which is, of

(30:08):
course, the most human humannature, especially in 1865 for a
lot of these men might not haveever seen a camera before, but
you're going home after yourmilitary service, and you want
your this is a document. This isgoing to document that you were
on this boat at this particulartime in Helena, Arkansas. So

(30:29):
anybody that could was rushingover to that side of the boat.
And so the boat is listing. It'snot level in the water, which we
just talked about it. And thecaptain, I think, was very
concerned about that. And someof the officers on the boat were
concerned about it, too. But onthe hurricane deck, there's a
stairwell, and there's two guys,and one guy, he's actually
caught in the moment, running upthe stairwell, and he's almost

(30:52):
in midair as he gets up there iswhich is incredible. And then
there's another one whose arm isextended way above his head and
he's waving, and it's the mosthe's not the only one waving,
but he's the one whose arm isthe most visible when he's
waving. And so that, that, to meis it's just kind of this joy,
right? Of wanting to get again,have this event documented,

(31:18):
getting your picture made.
And certainly, the Civil War isthe first war in the United
States where photography playeda significant role, both, you
know, certainly you know, thephotos of the battlefield at
Gettysburg and in other battles,you know, and the cost and
bodies laying in the field andso on, you know, really brought

(31:42):
home the consequences of war tothe entire country at that time,
which is something they hadn'tseen before. And then obviously
the ability to get your picturetaken when you go to one of the
larger cities and go into aphoto studio and Banks was
taking photos of the occupyingarmy, portraits of officers in
the occupying army in Helena,which the Central Arkansas

(32:03):
Library System has, and otherpeople did you, but they have
them in their collection, andthey're really incredible. And
so documenting your militaryservice, but in getting your
picture made, is such a becomesin such an intrinsic part of
service that you start to seethat really throughout and

(32:25):
again, talking about, I always,I was always a joke, and with my
wife about everything, I alwaysbring everything back to
Vietnam. But a lot of it is, youknow, you in Vietnam, soldiers
that were in country were givenor, you know, you could get your
film processed for free. And sowhen you see photos that men and

(32:45):
women took in in Vietnam, somany of them, this is the first
time, not just the first timeout of the country, it's a lot
of what's the first time out ofthe state that hold their home
state, or even their homecounty, in some ways.

Dean Klinkenberg (32:56):
Right.

Jeff Kollath (32:57):
First time on an airplane. And so you're
documenting, you're you'redocumenting things. You
document, of course, when you'reon vacation, the landscape, the
people, the rivers, everything.
But they're also taking picturesof their friends, and they're
having people take pictures ofthemselves, of them, and their
dog, and dogs that they meet,and various other things, which
are these kind of pieces ofhome. And it's like just

(33:19):
grounded in this sense ofhumanity that I've always loved
about seeing photos that thatsoldiers, men and women take
during wartime and what theythink is important, because
that's what they're doing.
They're documenting what'simportant to them at any given
point in time. And so that's along way of saying that's what
that photo with those, the guywaving and the guy jumping,

(33:42):
that's what that reminds me of.

Dean Klinkenberg (33:44):
It's a, I find it an especially haunting
picture. Maybe it's just knowingwhat what comes not long after
that, but it's, it's a publicdomain photo. I will post a
picture of that on the website,and I'll probably put it out in
social media too when thisepisode is out so folks can see
it for themselves. But yeah,that that's a very vivid
description. Thank you. I wascurious how professional a

(34:07):
historian, especially, would seesomething like that.

Jeff Kollath (34:10):
Well, and you said it right. It's sort of like they
don't know what's coming. It'slike it's the same thing that I
always think about when you seefootage of the Challenger
astronauts getting on or whenthey walk out of the walk onto
the van, they leave their theirquarter, crew quarters, and they
get onto the transit van, andthey're all they're waving and
smiling. I mean, of course, youknow they're anybody would be

(34:32):
nervous to get on top of arocket ship, but it's like,
that's the last view we have ofthem, right? And they have no
idea what's coming and happeningand like so I agree with you. It
is haunting because, you know,obviously, with with hindsight,
and we do know they don't, andso it's just a weird thing to
see people in this case, notjust hours before they go, Well,

(34:56):
this case, yeah, I mean, thiswas on the 26th this was, you
know, less than 24 hours later,these, many of these guys aren't
around anymore.

Dean Klinkenberg (35:04):
So I forgot to ask this part. But so the
ultimate destination was Cairo,Illinois. Is that right?

Jeff Kollath (35:10):
Ultimate destination was actually they
were going to head up to thehead up the Mississippi to Cairo
hanger, right, and go up theOhio. And then the men were to
muster out at Camp chase inColumbus.

Dean Klinkenberg (35:26):
So after Helena then, the boat continues
on to Memphis. Stops in Memphis,as you'd mentioned, there's some
unloading. I think a fewsoldiers were able to get off
the boat for a little bit andsearch around town for a bite to
eat and some supplies. Do youhave any stories about that?

Jeff Kollath (35:45):
I'm doing air quotes, supply. Well, I think
you know, part of it is, youknow, some of the men were paid
to help unload the boat, whichthey did. I mean, these giant
hogsheads of sugar and thingsget off the boat. A lot of
civilian passengers get off theboat. But then, yes, you do have
some of the men who are liketown, restaurants, bars, what

(36:08):
have you. I want to get intosome of that, which is, again,
human nature and soldiers,soldiers, by and large, like a

Dean Klinkenberg (36:16):
They just got out of a prison camp.
good time.

Jeff Kollath (36:19):
Exactly.
And so there is certainly someof that. And you know some of
these stories of near misses.
You know, guys that didn't getback on the boat, guys that
missed the boat. You know one ofthe most famous stories, and one
of the most famous survivors ofthe story is this guy, Eppenetus
McIntos, who was an Illinoisinfantryman who was at

(36:39):
Andersonville and withered toabout 65 pounds or so. And then
was actually got on, was onanother boat, steaming north,
missed went into town, missedhis boat, and then got on the
Sultana. And then, you know, allthose things. You know,

(37:00):
obviously the explosion happens.
And then he makes his livingafter the war as sort of this
itinerant musician. You know,he's written these, you know,
taking songs that tunes thatwere tunes that were popular of
the day, or hymns, and making upthese lyrics, some of them
silly, some of them serious. Andhe travels the, you know, the

(37:22):
country, selling song books andsheet music, or not, cheap music
and lyric sheets and photos ofhimself at Andersonville artist
rendering. And so that's onestory. You know, there's stories
of, you know, guys that wentinto town. The tall Tennessean
is somebody that Gene writesabout, and is in Chester Berry's

(37:42):
book, and somebody that's closeto seven feet tall. So very
much, the tall Tennessean. Andhis story is certainly really
interesting part of the afterthe boat explodes, and sort of
his role and in that too. So thewhat happens in Memphis is they,
you know, some guys leave, someget back on. Other people leave.

(38:06):
But the when they removed allthat weight from the lower part
of the boat, the stick crew incharge did not redistribute the
weight. And so that becomes akey part of what potentially
could have caused the explosionjust up river. Gene talks about
that and in his book, again,going back to that idea of

(38:29):
exposing those hot flues andthen slamming them with ice cold
water from the river. Now thisis the end of April. The river's
at flood stage. It's rivers onlyabout 50, no more than 50
degrees temperature wise. Soit's pretty still pretty cold,
especially when you have, youknow, boiling hot flues in
there.

Dean Klinkenberg (38:49):
Yeah. So all right, so take us through what
happens after that. They getback underway after Memphis, and
then all hell breaks loose.

Jeff Kollath (38:55):
And add some more firewood and coal and stuff. And
that's really where the, youknow, the idea of sabotage comes
into play with Confederatesympathizers, or whomever that
had a coal torpedo, which is achunk of coal, or an object made
to look like a chunk of coal,but it's actually a charred
explosive charge that would bethrown into the firebox. And

(39:18):
those, Gene thoroughly debunksthose, and has debunked those
over the years. And there's somegreat conspiracy theories, but

Dean Klinkenberg (39:26):
There always are.

Jeff Kollath (39:29):
And so as they start to churn up river, they
get a few more miles north, andthen one of the boilers, one of
the four boilers, explodes, notthe patched one. And so it's a
steam explosion. This isn't akaboom explosion. This is a
steam explosion which blows ahole in the boiler and then
blows straight up and blows ahole in the structure and the

(39:50):
decks above it. When theexplosion happens, it exposes
the fire boxes below, which iswhere, you know where the coal
is, that's that's boiling thewater when the debris goes up
and comes back down and thenfalls onto those fire boxes.
That's what starts the fire thateventually engulfs the boat. So
you have sort of this, men thatare killed instantly, men that

(40:12):
are thrown up in the air andthen back down onto the debris
and onto the fire. There aresome that are thrown off board
right away, but some of the menthat are in other parts of the
boat don't really know what'sgoing on. They hear they're
asleep. This is a, you know,1:30 in the morning, they heard
a disturbance of some kind, andthen wake up to find out what is

(40:32):
actually going on. So you reallyhave two phases of evacuation.
One is sort of the initial onewhere the explosion happens. The
first fire is burning, and youhave hundreds and hundreds of
people jumping into the water,searching for debris to grab on

(40:52):
to, taking pieces of the boatand throwing it in the water and
jumping in. But you also havethis massive humanity in the
water. It's completely darkexcept for the burning boat. The
water is ice cold. It's in themiddle of the night. You're in
the Mississippi River. Many ofthem are still nursing their way

(41:13):
back to 100% and many of themjust don't know how to swim. And
you're fighting the current, butyou're also fighting the people
around you. And I think the oneof the most harrowing, the most
harrowing part of it for me, isjust putting yourself in the
position of being tossed intothe water and having belief in

(41:33):
your ability to like, how am Igoing to get through this? And
having a plan, and then somebodygrabs you that can't swim, and
pulls you down. And so you havea lot of people, once they're in
the water, start to realize, ifI'm going to survive this, I
can't I can't have my clotheson. And so they start to strip
down, so there's nothing to grabonto. And then some of the men

(41:54):
that are on the boat start tosee that and do it as well,
before they're jumping into thewater well as the fire starts to
spread again, it's fighting thecurrent. The boat is still
pushing upstream, but eventuallyit loses it loses steam, pun
intended, and starts to as theriver starts to push it back,

(42:16):
the fire reaches the paddlewheelhousing so once those first
paddle that starts to come offthe boat starts to turn, and
then that fire that's in thefront part of the boat jumps to
the back part of the boat. Sothen now the back half of the
boat is also engulfed. So youhave sort of the second mass
exodus that's that's happening.
And the more people you have inthe water, it just becomes more

(42:39):
of an issue. But there's debris.
Mason, the captain, is last timepeople see him as he's pulling
pieces and finding pieces andthrowing into the water. He does
go down with the boat, and it'sthis, these harrowing tales of
survival, some of the women andthe children that are on the
boat, again, Gene goes intoreally great detail and telling

(43:01):
those stories about, you know,the one female survivor, Ann
Annis, who's actually fromWisconsin, and you know, the
just the the terror and theheart wrenching decisions that
have to be made for selfpreservation versus saving your
brother or your sister,whoever's next to you.

(43:23):
And you know, some of the menare able to swim sort of away
and back down, and some are ableto find pieces and drift.
Obviously, if this is happeningat two in the morning and it's a
large explosion and it's afireball, you're going to hear
it. If you didn't hear it,you're going to see it. And so
eventually the people ofMemphis, you know, realize

(43:45):
what's going on and sound out,you know, essentially an alarm.
And then all these skiffs andcanoes and up some other federal
boats that are nearby. But thenalso steamboats that are in the
river already going north orsouth, start to pull people out
of the water. And so you havesort of these rescue efforts,
you know, people just seeingwhat they needed to do. But as

(44:07):
they're doing this, they'repulling bodies out, pulling them
in, taking them back to thelanding, going out, that
eventually you just have thismass of humanity, you know,
laying on the landing inMemphis, you know, some living,
some dead. It's just, I meanthat it's a harrowing visual. So
the boat, you know, continues toburn, and then eventually burns

(44:30):
down to the water line. Some menstayed on it the entire time.
Some men actually got back on itwhen they realized it was safer,
potentially, to be on the boatas the fire had dropped down, as
opposed to being in the water,and the boat drifts over to the
Arkansas side of the river.
Again, the river is at floodstage, and so it is a lot wider
than where it's used to, thanwhere it usually is. And so the

(44:53):
shore is further west, nearpresent day Mound City,
Arkansas. And, you know, runs upalongside the property of the
Bartons and the Fogelmans, andboth of whom are still quite
prevalent names in the in the inthe Marion and Crittenden County
area. And both are farmers andare able to they had their

(45:17):
boats. There had been guerrillaactivity on that side of the
river, so the federal army hadconfiscated boats and but
they're they've lashed togetherlogs and made, made make
makeshift rafts and used, youknow, potentially, floats that
they had concealed from the fromthe from the federals to go out
into the river and start pullingsome of these people out and

(45:42):
taking them back to their homesand putting them next. I mean,
the traditional story of pullyou into the house and give you
a blanket and put you next to afire and hear some whiskey and
and so on. And the Barton, theFranklin Barton, who is the the
one of the rescuers, had justreturned from service in the
Confederate Army, and waswearing his uniform when he's

(46:04):
pulling these people out. Andso.

Dean Klinkenberg (46:08):
Union soldiers, mostly?

Jeff Kollath (46:10):
Mostly Union soldiers, right? And so what you
have, I think that's what thatputs sort of a, I wouldn't say
it puts a pin in the story, butit brings it full circle for a
lot, I think a lot of us, isthis complete loss of humanity
that occurs at Vicksburg, whichis thinking of human beings as a
commodity, as a thing that canbe sold or bought, in terms of

(46:35):
the military, obviously, inthinking of it as a way to make
a buck, and not thinking aboutthe human toll of what you're
doing in terms of overcrowdingthis boat and losing the sense
of right and wrong, and thencoming full circle to the rescue
and people risking their livesto pull these men and women out

(46:58):
of the water. But then, sort oflike at the end of this war,
we're back. We're back to wherewe should have been, which is
not blue, not gray. We're just,we're just people helping each
other out. And so I think that'salways kind of the to me, the
full circle moment and the thatreally closes out the disaster

(47:18):
in a way that's very powerful.

Dean Klinkenberg (47:21):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting
myself. I just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guide books for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also write
the Frank Dodge mystery seriesthat is set in places along the
Mississippi. My newest book 'TheWild Mississippi,' goes deep

(47:45):
into the world of Old Man River.
Learn about the varied andcomplex ecosystems supported by
the Mississippi, the plant andanimal life that depends on
them. And where you can go toexperience it all. Find any of
these wherever books are sold.
Yeah, it really was remarkable.
Reading the stories of peoplewho lived along the river, who
risked their own lives go outthere and rescue folks who stuck

(48:06):
in the water. Yeah, there's justso many tragic and hopeful
stories contained in this oneincident that, so do you do? Is
there, like, any one or twoparticular stories of unique

(48:26):
ways people, like the victims,survived

Jeff Kollath (48:36):
Yeah, Samuel Pickens is really the, you know,
the the story, I think that getstold a lot in his famous quote,
is the best trade I ever madewas the best. '"The best trade I
ever made was trading a livemule for a dead one." And
essentially, you know, theirmules and their horses that were
on this on this boat, and somelived, and some died, and

(48:58):
whatever you can find to keepyou, keep you afloat. And so
obviously a kicking horse or akicking mule is not going to be
as amenable to you grabbing ahold as a dead one might be. So
that's sort of a famous quotethat I think gets passed around,
and is an interesting one. Thekind of the main one of the main
stories is William Legenbealfrom Ohio, who was aboard the

(49:25):
boat, and the crew on theSultana had a pet alligator, was
about a six foot long alligator,had it, kept it in a box, had it
out on the deck during the day,and then they kind of put it in
a those room or a closet underthe grand staircase. And
Luganville knew that was inthere, and so he thought that
would be a great thing topotentially grab a hold of and

(49:48):
float to safety on. And so whenI before I started, or when I
started, I heard about thealligator, and I saw the
artifacts in the museum, I waslike, Oh, here's, this is. The
story, the mascot of the boat,and blah, blah, blah. Then you
read it, and then, oh, but he toget the box. He had to kill the
alligator. And it's just like,man, he even had to kill the

(50:08):
alligator. But anyway, he killsthe alligator, and then takes
the box, throws it into theriver, and then jumps on the box
and floats to safety. And thenhis throughout the rest of his
life in veterans organizationsor Sultana Survivors
Association. He is the alligatorman like that is his claim to

(50:30):
fame. And so we have a number ofobjects over the years, a pipe,
excuse me, a pipe, scrimshaw,cane scarbox, all with the
alligator on it, that that, thathe owned. So he really leaned
into that part of his identity.
I've been telling everybody thatI think the alligator survived

(50:50):
and lived a happy life furtheron down the Delta. Had a full
family, with a dagger in hisback.

Dean Klinkenberg (50:59):
We'll ignore the water temperature.

Jeff Kollath (51:01):
You know exactly.

Dean Klinkenberg (51:03):
It's irrelevant.

Jeff Kollath (51:04):
I think you know the what Chester Berry's book
does is, and I can't recommendit enough. I don't recommend you
read it all the way through bitsand read a few at a time, I
think mostly just so that youcan really understand and don't

(51:25):
lose the impact of what of whatyou're reading. Because I think
if you read too many of them ina row, I wouldn't say it
desensitizes it, but it justsort of read five or six at a
time. Put it down. Come back. Dofive or six more.

Dean Klinkenberg (51:36):
It's basically an oral history, right?

Jeff Kollath (51:36):
It is, yes.

Dean Klinkenberg (51:37):
He contacted survivors and let them tell
their stories, whatever they canremember about the sequence of
events. It's, it's hard to putdown, but it's a good idea to
set it aside after a couplestories like you said.

Jeff Kollath (51:50):
There are some men that are very much, you know,
very tight lipped and don'tshare much, but the ones that
do, their language and how theywrite about it is, really pretty
incredible. And, you know,again, these are, this is, you
know, after the fact, 20 or soyears that these are collected
and published, but the way thatthey're writing about it, and

(52:14):
the way that they're describinghow it still affects them.
Again, it's like you're readingthis in the 1880s and like this.
These guys had PTSD, these guyshad shell shock, whatever you
want to call it. And of course,there was that wasn't a thing
then, and certainly wasn'tunderstood in the way that it
was until the late 20th centuryand so but you're reading these

(52:36):
and understanding what these menhad gone through as part of it.
But then again, how it affecttheir life, not necessarily
their war wounds, but theinjuries that they suffered in
the water or as a result of theexplosion. Some certainly with
burns. And some of thedescriptions of the burns are
pretty horrific, but being inthe cold water for four to six

(52:57):
hours and the effect ineventually developing rheumatoid
arthritis and other maladiesthat made it again. This is the
we were in agrarian society inthe 19th century. So men who
were farmers, as older men oryounger men or sons of farmers,
or whatever that when they gotback home, expected to take back
over to pick up where they leftoff or unable to. And so I think

(53:21):
you're also then dealing withthe effects of the not just the
war, taking away what you hadplanned for your life or what
you were doing with your life,but now you have this as well.
And so I think that's really oneof the points that becomes, I
think especially for lack of abetter word, heavy or weighty,

(53:44):
is that in going back to theSultana photo or the Helena
photo and some of these otherthings, it's like, you think you
got it beat at this point. Youthink you're out, you're done,
we're going to then have thishappen. And another thing,
1,000% not even a quatrillionpercent, not your fault happens.

(54:07):
And so I think that you see theweight of that, the way that
these men are dealing with this,in having to adjust their lives.
Again, talking about EppenetusMcIntosh is a good example of
that, and he's just one of themany. And I think that's
something that I don't think itdoesn't, certainly doesn't get
lost. But because I thinktalking about the Civil War,

(54:32):
talking about Civil War, WorldWar I and World War II, but
especially the Civil War inWorld War I, I think we get what
one of the best things that hashappened in the interpretation
of these of these conflicts andof these wars, is in where
museums can do a better job. AndWorld War II Museum in New
Orleans is a great example ofthis. And the museum in Kansas

(54:53):
City, my old museum in Madison,you know, has evolved too. Is
any of you? Studying theseconflicts from 30,000 feet is
one thing, but the true impactand the to truly understand what
happened and the true impact ofthem, you got to get down on the
ground, and you have tounderstand these as human
beings. Military History issocial history is the story of

(55:15):
ordinary Americans doingextraordinary things, people
that were drafted orconstricted, conscript,
conscripted, some enlisted,whatever it might be, but it's,
it's everyday, average Americansdoing these, doing these tasks,
and their point, their livesmoving in a linear fashion, and
then it goes a differentdirection, and then coming back

(55:38):
again. And sometimes those livesare long, and sometimes those
lives are short. But I think itreally helps us hearing these
individual stories helps usunderstand this, the impact of
this, and I think the the weightof having your life changed
irreparably, in some ways, morethan once, is a is a concept

(56:04):
that's pretty foreign, I think.
And I think that's somethingthat I haven't really said. I
haven't talked about this partof it before, until actually
right now. Then it's starting toaffect me a little bit too, just
because it is kind of like thenotion of thinking that you're
going going home is such apowerful thing, I mean, and
again, I'm not, did not serve inthe military. I don't come from

(56:26):
a military family at all. Butthe concept of being able to go
home and see your parents oryour wife or your girlfriend,
your kids, whatever brothers andsisters, whatever it might be,
and having it pulled away, is.

Dean Klinkenberg (56:42):
Right. Well, and it's, it's trauma on top of
trauma. Because, again, thesewere mostly men who were just
released from prisoner of warcamps. So they'd been suffering
in prison camps. They had beenin battles. You know, they had
multiple years away from home,probably for many of them. And
like you said, that feeling ofit had to at least be a sense of

(57:03):
relief, a deep sense of reliefthat it was over and I'm going
to get to go home, and then thesteamboat.

Jeff Kollath (57:10):
And I think what Chester Berry's book actually
does a good job of, since theseguys are writing in the 1880s is
talking about they survived theexplosion, and then they still
got to get home. Some are like,I'm not getting on a boat. I
don't get home. I mean, there'sall, there's a number of stories
about how, you know, these guysgot home after that. And so I

(57:32):
think that's, it's just, it'spart of it, and it, it's, I
think it's just also thereminder of the importance of
veterans organizations and therole that they did, could and
should play, and as peer to peergroups and helping folks deal

(57:54):
with this thing I know certainlyis the 19th century is a little
bit different than the 21stCentury, and talking about
trauma, but I'll not justtalking about but understanding
it. And I think the the G.A.R.
and and Survivors Association atleast provided some modicum of
of of togetherness and closenessand a sense of like, Okay, you

(58:20):
guys get this that maybe some,some that weren't involved in
those organizations neverexperienced.

Dean Klinkenberg (58:28):
So based on the more recent scholarship then
and the determining the numberof people who are on the boat,
what's the estimate of thenumber of people who died?

Jeff Kollath (58:37):
1,130.

Dean Klinkenberg (58:40):
Yeah, which still makes it the worst
maritime disaster in US history?

Jeff Kollath (58:44):
Yes. So it's the worst in America, yes. And so in
the museum are the folks thatare they did a small Sultana,
did a small exhibit at the StateHouse in Little Rock several
years ago that the folks whowere doing did the architecture
Haizlip Studio in Memphis, ordesigned the new museum, but
then also designing the exhibitsas well. And they did a really

(59:08):
great sort of infographiccomparing the Sultana and the
Titanic in terms of the size ofthe boat. And obviously the
Titanic is huge, and the Sultanain the grand scheme of things is
pretty small compared to theTitanic, but also the closeness
and the number of people thatwere on the boat and the number

(59:29):
of casualties. You know, there'smore on the Titanic, but not
that many more. You know, thecasualty rates are, you know,
little bit higher one side orthe other. But it's, it's still
pretty close. And so I thinkit's a really helpful if you
don't know anything, and youknow that this is the worst

(59:49):
maritime disaster in US history,and then you see that it's like,
okay, everybody knows theTitanic. And so I think it's,
it's, it's a helpful teachingtool for us. To use it that way.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:00:02):
So what happened? You kind of hinted at
this a little bit, you know, thecold water and the so there are
lots of reading like theconspiracy theories persisted
for quite a while, until then, Ifound this from 1903 that was
talking about in the otherConfederate conspiracy. So what
do we think actually happened?

Jeff Kollath (01:00:24):
I mean, the boiler exploded for a couple of
reasons. I mean, one was the thetype of boilers. There's the
traditional style of boiler, andthen there's these tubular
boilers, and the tubular boilersare thought to be a little bit
more efficient. They were reallysuccessful on the Upper
Mississippi River. Butobviously, what makes the Upper
Mississippi so much different isthe fact there's not full of
silt and sand and dirt andvarious things. So there,

(01:00:48):
whereas the Lower Mississippi isthe boat is drawing in water to
fill the boilers and and to boilthe water and to make, to make
things go, make the engines go,it's what in the paddlewheel
turn is that when you're pullingup all this dirty water requires
these boilers require constantcare, and so it's a lot of

(01:01:11):
there's soot and stuff that getsinside technical term. Stuff
gets inside these boilers andrequires constant cleaning and
scraping and ensuring thatthey're clean, because that
start, that that stuff couldstart on fire as well, too. So
that was one of the majorissues, was that it's pulling up
not just super cold water, butalso super dirty water too. So

(01:01:35):
that was one of the issues. Thetype of iron that was used on
these on these boilers, again,in the 1860s was things you
don't, you don't, you don't knowit until you don't know it,
until you know it. And so thistype of iron that was used was
come to find out, prone toexpansion and contraction when

(01:01:56):
filled with cold water. Boilingwater heats, expands. Cold water
when it's down, it contracts,can create these little
microscopic fissures in the ironthat, again, if you don't see
the hole, or if you don't see acrack, you don't know that
they're there. That wassomething that was a theory sort
of put forth by Hartford SteamBoiler, who I'll talk about in a

(01:02:18):
second, and one of theirengineers, and that that was
actually the main cause, wasthat this idea of this heating
and cooling and contraction,expansion and contraction is
what caused those fissures,weakening the iron and then
giving the steam, you know,space to go. Obviously, the

(01:02:39):
flues, the boat not beingbalanced and being the
superheated flues gettingexposed, and then the ice cold
water going back on top of theflue is really creating this
sort of immediate evaporation orcreation of steam in a sort of a
violent way, contributed to thattoo. And so it was, what was

(01:03:02):
determined, though, was thatthis type of boiler was really
unsafe to use on the LowerMississippi. And so you start to
see this type of boiler outlawedon the lower Mississippi, return
to the more traditional styleboiler. But then you have a
company like HSB Hartford SteamBoiler coming in and saying,

(01:03:23):
there is no program forinspecting these boilers. You
know, boiler explosions neverjust happening in maritime and
industrial endeavors. They'realso happening in domestic
endeavors and using boilers inhouses and buildings for
heating. And so boilerexplosions were fairly common
occurrence, and really wasn't anunderstanding of how these

(01:03:47):
things were happening, but howto prevent them, moreover. And
so what HSB does is it, youknow, establishes itself at this
company, and establishes,really, the first boiler
inspection program in the UnitedStates. And not only is
inspecting them, but then alsocreating an insurance program
for those as well. And so, whichwas really unprecedented, and

(01:04:11):
and really it's, it's their,their company, which is one of
our donors, still exists inHartford, Connecticut. There's
there they are one of theentities that has kept this
story alive, and is in hiscontinued to tell it, and it is
part of their corporate history,but it's part of their culture
there too, and so every newemployee learns it the dining

(01:04:33):
room, and their headquarters iscalled the Sultana Room, and
they're an active partner withus in this, in this endeavor,
and it's all because of, youknow, again, a group of really
intelligent peopleunderstanding, there's a
problem, let's figure out how tosolve this problem. And they
did, and I think was it lasttime I heard one of their, their

(01:04:57):
their corporate spiels. Theyinspected three. Million boilers
in 2024, or something throughoutthe world. So it's really pretty
incredible. And so, yeah, Ithink that that you know, it
was, it was an accident. It wasnot sabotage, but it certainly
was. It something that couldhave been prevented with better

(01:05:19):
care, perhaps could have beenprevented with different type of
material, perhaps, but I thinkalso just comes back to would
there have been loss of life hadthe boat not been overloaded,
potentially, but certainly notto the scope and scale that we
saw with the boat.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:05:38):
So the survivors organized a group, and
many of them got together for awhile to offer mutual support, I
assume, and check in on eachother. But the story of this
kind of largely got lost in thesubsequent history. There's so
much. There was so much going onin that time. Lincoln was
assassinated, then Booth waskilled, the war was ending. I

(01:06:00):
think there was probably so muchwar fatigue. People were ready
to move on and get on withthings. And this story, although
it got some press, obviously itdidn't really have legs to it.
And and there, you know, there'ssome books out there now, every
now and then a story. I see astory pop up here and there
about the Sultana, but it stillfeels like to me, this is not a

(01:06:24):
story that's as well known as itshould be, given the magnitude
of what happened. So I was, youknow, when I a few years back,
when I saw there was a newmuseum in Marion that was going
to pay homage to this wholeexperience, I was really happy
to see that. So tell us a littlebit about the museum and how you

(01:06:44):
came to be. And I understandyou've got some big plans.

Jeff Kollath (01:06:47):
Real big. So, I mean, the museum has really
been, it's been a passionproject for the, you know, the
folks in Marion, Arkansas andCrittenden County, and again,
with supporters all over thecountry. There is a Sultana
descendants Association, whichwas formed in the 1980s kind of

(01:07:10):
run out of by a lawyer inKnoxville. It's guy by the name
of Norman Shaw. There's amemorial in Knoxville, East
Tennessee, had the secondhighest number of casualties,
after the state of Ohio, EastTennessee was Union country, and
a lot of these guys were part ofTennessee Union, Tennessee
federal regiments that weremustered in in East Tennessee.

(01:07:31):
And so there's this reallywidespread support. You know, of
this dedicated, loosely, looselyorganized group, but they have
an annual they've had an annualmeeting every year. Sometimes
it's in Marion and Memphis,sometimes it's in Vicksburg or
Knoxville or wherever. And it'san incredible group of people

(01:07:54):
that who are so passionate aboutthis story, but have continued
to research and seek and learnand so on. And one of the the
most heartening things that I'vebeen a part of was the reunion
last year in in Knoxville. Andit's, you know, people come to

(01:08:17):
this a lot of times throughgenealogy and but there's also
family lore. And so it's, youknow, great, great granddaddy, a
great, great uncle or whoeversurvived this terrible
explosion. And as you know, withfamily lore, stories get passed
down. The details get lost. Thetruth may never have been true,

(01:08:38):
or the truth may get changed, asfor us, but verify, yes,
exactly. And one of the greatestthings that I experienced was
the number of descendants thathave continued to research and
learn and seek and not just toreinforce what they think they
know or but to seek the truthand and not be, be okay with to

(01:09:03):
and I think it's a really, it'san act of courage in a lot of
ways, when you find out that thestory that your family member
has told, that has been passeddown isn't exactly true. And,
and, and get to the point wherethe sources say this, this is
the source. And I saw that onmultiple occasions, and I

(01:09:27):
remember thinking like, again,the historian in me is very much
like that right there. That iswhat you do. And I think it was
really invigorating, I think forme, and I think for board
members that were there to seethat in action and to give us
kind of the is just sort of theboost that you need every once
in a while that because, again,these projects, it's there's a

(01:09:51):
big group of people working onit, but it comes, when it gets
down to the brass tax, there's asmall group that's responsible
for it, especially in terms ofthe fundraising. And to make
everything's go, and makeeverything go. And I think it's
been, you know, there's, there'sa we got a lot of, we got a lot
of people behind us, and to makethis happen. And so museums been

(01:10:14):
around for, you know, a littlemore than 10 years. It's in, you
know, we have a small space onthe courthouse square. It's
about 800 square feet,relatively small artifact
collection, a few photos, a fewother primary sources, and we're
going from 800 square feet to21,000 square feet in terms of

(01:10:35):
the space, but 9,000 feet ofsquare feet of permanent
exhibition space. And you know,if all goes according to plan,
will be open in eight months, inNovember of 2026 and so I think
you know, because the artifactcollection is relatively small,
you know, and obviously the boatexploded and sank. So there's

(01:10:57):
not a lot, there's not a ton ofpieces out there. And there's
letters and very in diaries andthings that exist out there too.
But really, you know, there'snot a lot of three dimensional
objects from wartime, certainly.
So most of our artifacts, mostof our collection, is post war.
It's from survivorsassociations. It's from G.A.R.
and that kind of thing, which isan interesting part of the

(01:11:18):
story, certainly.
So the, you know, the exhibitsare going to be, you were going
to rely a lot on technology,rely on a lot on storytelling,
first person accounts, becausewe have hundreds of those. And
really, you know, I think tryingto create an experience that is,

(01:11:39):
at times, somewhat traditional,in terms of, you know, museums
and looking at stuff and readingsome text and but then also
something that's very modern andvery of the moment. So some
immersive experiences,especially around that moment
when the explosion happens,talking about river commerce and

(01:12:00):
traffic and communication, andand obviously the boat itself
and how it was constructed andused, and it's role sort of up
to the point of loading all theguys on it in Vicksburg. So
it's, it's quite, quite anendeavor, to say the least. And
I, but I think it's, it's astory that, again, virtually

(01:12:20):
nobody knows. And but like witha lot of things that might be a
little off the beaten path orsomewhat esoteric or not as well
known, the people that do knowit are incredibly passionate
about it. And so if you go onYouTube, and you know, there are
multiple, there's, you know, acouple of you know, full length,

(01:12:42):
feature length documentariesthat have been made. It's been
on History Detectives, the oldPBS show, there's a brand new,
relatively new documentary, partof a documentary series about
shipwrecks and maritimeaccidents that was put together
last year that has some reallyincredible graphics and CGI work

(01:13:03):
that was done to kind ofrecreate the boat from original
drawings and that sort of thing.
So there's a lot of, there's,there's, there's a lot of
interest in it. And I thinkit's, you know, it's Civil War
history in theory, but it's alsosort of Civil War adjacent. And
I think that's also been part ofthe struggle in getting the type

(01:13:23):
of recognition that it deservesat a federal level. You know,
the organization andcongressional delegations from
Tennessee and Ohio mostly foughtdiligently for, you know, 20, 30
years up to the 50thanniversary, essentially, and
kind of couldn't get anytraction in the House of
Representatives to get any kindof federal designation passed

(01:13:47):
for the survivors or for the toeven acknowledge the the event.
And it kind of went silent untilthis descendants Association
came along. So, you know, Ithink as we at once, we're open,
you know, my hope is that wecatch the eye and the ear of
people that have the ability toto make those sort of, suggest

(01:14:08):
those sort of designations, andsee what we can do. Because I
think that there's, there's alot of opportunity here. I think
there's a lot of there will be alot of interest in what we're
doing. There isn't a we're theonly museum in the world with
the word disaster in the title,which are in its name, which is

(01:14:29):
a kind of a unique thing, youknow, to be in close to Memphis,
just really, you know, 15minutes from Downtown Memphis,
but still in Crittenden County,Arkansas, being in the Arkansas
Delta, which has such a richhistory, cultural history,
especially, you know, reallymusic and art and literature and

(01:14:50):
everything that has come out ofthere. Johnny Cash boyhood home
up the street from us theBlytheville Air Base. And it's
rolling, the Cold War on down toHelena and King Biscuit and
Delta Arts and in West Memphisand so on. So there's, there's a
really amazing things that thathave occurred in that part of

(01:15:11):
Arkansas and eastern Arkansasand in the Delta, and we're
certainly part of it. And so weview ourselves kind of obviously
telling the story in ourpermanent gallery all day, every
day, but through our temporaryexhibits and our programming and
various other things, I think wehave a lot, we have ton more

(01:15:32):
stories that we can tell too.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:15:37):
Well, fantastic. Do you have social
media accounts for your postingvery much for the museum. Or
where can folks keep up withwhat you're doing?

Jeff Kollath (01:15:46):
Facebook's probably the best place right
now. Just search for SultanaDisaster Museum. You could sign
up for our mailing list. We sendout in we don't sell it or
anything. I don't know if peoplestill do that sell sell mailing
lists.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:15:59):
Unfortunately, I think they do. But anyway.

Jeff Kollath (01:16:03):
But sign up for our email list, and we don't
bombard you with things you get,you know, a monthly newsletter,
and then other interestingthings that are going on. And
there's going to be a lot ofinteresting things going on,
certainly over the next fewmonths. You know, we'd love to
see a good crowd at the grandopening and in November, and
then come see us. You know,after that, I think right now,
in the small museum, we'll beopen for sure through the end of

(01:16:26):
April, which I guess when this,when this, when this runs, it'll
be just a few more days.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:16:30):
You'll be shutting down.

Jeff Kollath (01:16:31):
Yes, to use the old adage from Widespread Panic,
"Call before you Haul" and, youknow, come see us, but be sure
we're there still, and then thehope will be to slow, kind of
gradually, open the new spacewith some temporary exhibits and
some programs later this spring,in the early summer, and then

(01:16:52):
grand opening in November. So bea lot going on. But again,
follow us on Facebook is reallythe best, and then our website
is a great resource to find outabout the history and start your
journey if you want to learnmore about individuals, and then

Dean Klinkenberg (01:17:07):
Fantastic.
Like you said, Marion's an easygo from there.
stop if you're going south downI-55 toward Memphis. It's very
easy to jump off a little bithop into Marion until the end of
April, visit so or November, andfree parking?

Jeff Kollath (01:17:25):
That's right.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:17:26):
Well, Jeff, thank you so much. That was
fantastic. That was a reallygreat overview of the Sultana
story. And I'm sure if peoplewanted to contribute a little
bit to help you finish off themuseum or get set up. I'm sure
you wouldn't object to somedonations coming your way as
well.

Jeff Kollath (01:17:46):
Love donations.
You can donate through ourwebsite. We'll be launching a
membership program probablyaround the time that this airs,
so that'll be a great way forpeople to get involved as well.
And so again, I think, you know,construction projects always
take a long time, so we've beena little bit behind schedule and

(01:18:07):
opening a little later than thanwhat we'd like. But I think
we're the timing. It's going tothe timing is going to work out.
And I think the time, the littlelonger runway to get there, has
benefited us. And I think peopleare going to be really excited
about what they see when theycome see us later in 2026 or

(01:18:30):
2027.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:18:32):
Fantastic. I'm going to put it on my calendar.
So great, Jeff. Thank you verymuch. I appreciate your time and
thanks for sharing yourexpertise.

Jeff Kollath (01:18:32):
Thanks for having me.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:18:36):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
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patreon.com/dean.klinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the

(01:18:57):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
ValleyTtraveler guidebooks forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast is written and producedby me, Dean Klinkenberg.
Original Music by Noah Fence.
See you next time.