Beyond Mark Twain: Faye Dant on Hannibal's African American Stories

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You probably know a little bit about Hannibal, Missouri, because of the books written by a guy named Mark Twain, but I bet you don’t know much about the history of African Americans who’ve lived in Hannibal, even though Hannibal has had African American residents from its earliest days. I didn’t until I talked with Faye Dant, founder of a Hannibal museum called Jim’s Journey. 

In this episode, Dant fills me in on the history that’s been hard to come by.  We talk about her deep family roots in Hannibal and Missouri, and how the lack of recognition for Black history in Hannibal inspired her to create the museum. She describes how she researches the history of the area’s African American communities, and what she learned about the first African Americans in Hannibal. She gives an overview of the city’s Black neighborhoods and how African Americans weren’t allowed to be in many Hannibal neighborhoods after dark.  

She describes the limited economic and educational opportunities available to African Americans in town, and her own experience going through the public schools as they integrated. We talk about the foundations of community life, and a couple of people who left an outsized mark on the area’s history: Joe Douglas and George Coleman Poage. We wrap up with a discussion of what she learned about Mark Twain growing up in Hannibal and what she thinks about the way Hannibal presents Mark Twain today.

Episode Transcript

Faye Dant (00:00):
But it was probably more intentional, in that I was

(00:07):
driven. I hope I'm answeringthis right, but I'm driven to
tell this story because I knowstakeholders and the community
powers weren't doing it. Weren'tgoing to do it. As a matter of
fact, in the, you know, allvisitors bureaus that they all

(00:29):
have this history of thecommunity, and there was really
no mention of the enslavement.
And Hannibal had like, 2000enslaved people, you know, that
they landed here with MosesBates, the founder.But Hannibal
had no real recognition of thosepeople and those contributions.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:10):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and

(01:30):
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
information on the Mississippiat
MississippiValleyTraveler.com.
Let's get going.
Welcome to Episode 66 of theMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. Well, we're going todive into some Hannibal history
today, but maybe not quite inthe direction you were

(01:52):
expecting. We're going to take awhole episode and we're going to
talk about the history of theAfrican American community in
Hannibal.Something that wouldhave been virtually impossible
to learn much about until myguest, Faye Dant came along.
Faye is the founder and directorof Jim's Journey in Hannibal,
and we'll talk about that duringthis episode, along with the

(02:13):
following topics. We talk abouther family history in Hannibal
and Missouri. She and her familyhave been in Missouri for five
generations. We talk about thelack of recognition of black
history in Hannibal and how thatinspired her to take some steps
to do something about it, likecreating a museum. We talk about
what she knows, what she's beenable to learn about the first

(02:35):
African Americans in Hannibal.
The steps that she's taken toresearch black history in the
community. We talked some aboutthe African American
neighborhoods in town and howeven parts of Hannibal had
sundown neighborhoods shakes. Wetalked about what that means, if
you're not familiar with theterm. We go over some of the
economic opportunities thatexisted for African Americans

(02:56):
historically, the schoolhistory, the segregated school
history in Hannibal, and howthat finally broke down. The
foundations of community lifefor blacks in Hannibal. Her
experiences growing up duringthe period when legal
segregation was starting tobreak down, and we talk about a
couple people specifically thatleft their mark, maybe a little

(03:18):
bigger than others, Joe Douglasand George Coleman Poage, and we
wrap up by talking a little bitabout what she learned about
Mark Twain when she was growingup in Hannibal, and her thoughts
on how Hannibal presents MarkTwain's legacy today. A wide
ranging discussion, reallyenjoyed talking with her, so

(03:41):
stick around for that.
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(04:02):
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(04:48):
particular address as well.
Well, all right, let's get onwith the interview.

(05:09):
Faye Dant is the founder anddirector of Jim's Journey, the
Huck Finn Freedom Center, alocal Black History Museum in
Hannibal. And she is also theauthor of the book, 'Hannibal's
Invisibles.' She grew up inDouglasville and Hannibal, one
of the oldest African Americancommunities west of the
Mississippi River. She's a fifthgeneration descendant of
enslaved Missourians and civilwar veterans. She married

(05:31):
another local, Joel Dant, who isa sixth generation Missourian.
She earned her bachelor's degreefrom Oakland University and a
master's degree from theUniversity of Michigan. She left
Hannibal in 1971 then returnedto live there in 2011 after
retiring from a career in humanresources. As a community
historian and the curator of theJim's Journey Museum, Faye is

(05:54):
compelled to tell the stories ofHannibal's ordinary and
extraordinary black community.
They all get a place on thewalls of the museum. Welcome to
the podcast, Faye.

Faye Dant (06:05):
Oh, good. Thank you, Dean. I appreciate the
opportunity.

Dean Klinkenberg (06:08):
Well, let's just jump right into this. You
in your bio, you mentionedyou're a fifth generation
Hannibalian. And how do youpronounce that?

Faye Dant (06:18):
Well, I call it a Hannibalian, but it's actually I
am third generation, Hannibalianand five generation here in
Missouri. My, my greatgrandfather was enslaved here,
brought from Virginia, and thenmy, my grandparents actually

(06:38):
moved here to Hannibal in 1920.
And this is where they had andraised their nine children.

Dean Klinkenberg (06:49):
So where did they grow up then? What part of
Missouri would they have livedin before they moved to
Hannibal?

Faye Dant (06:57):
Yes, it was Lincoln County, down near in the
country, but down near Eolia,Missouri.

Dean Klinkenberg (07:06):
Alright, so how much was your family history
sort of passed on to you fromolder generations, and how much
have you had to sort of dig tofigure out for yourself?

Faye Dant (07:21):
Well, I probably did more digging and exploring, and
had to find out for myself.
However, as a I should say this,there were lots of family
albums, and there were lots ofwith, you know, with lots of
photographs. And my mom was evena scrapbooker, and she carefully

(07:43):
cut out and arranged any thingabout any black person here in
the local area. And she did thatfor probably 40 years.

Dean Klinkenberg (07:58):
Wow. So is that one of the is that partly
what inspired you to start Jim'sJourney?

Faye Dant (08:05):
Well, probably because it's probably just a
sense of pride in AfricanAmerican, African American
contributions, achievements,struggles, hurdles, it probably
did motivate me some.

Dean Klinkenberg (08:23):
Well, because it sounds like you had a lot of
material to sort of get you offto a good start. If she was
scrapbooking so much and savinga lot of articles, that must
have been a good foundation foryou to begin with.

Faye Dant (08:35):
Oh, absolutely. It's been wonderful. You know the
person who the black guy, whoTommy Marcellus, who served in
two world wars and and, youknow, various obituaries that I
could go back through, throughand see who birthed who, and all
that kind of stuff. So, yes, itwas it. There was a great source

(08:58):
for me.

Dean Klinkenberg (09:00):
So tell us, what was your basic idea when
you decided you were going tostart the Jim's Journey. What
was, what was the core idea thatyou were working with for that?

Faye Dant (09:14):
It was probably more in intentional in that I was
driven. I hope I'm answeringthis right, but I'm driven to
tell this story because I knowstakeholders and the community
powers weren't doing it. Weren'tgoing to do it, as a matter of

(09:40):
fact, in the, you know, allvisitors bureaus that they all
have this history of thecommunity, and there was really
no mention of the enslavement.
And Hannibal had, like, 2000enslaved people. You know that
they landed here with MosesBates, the founder, but Hannibal
had no real recognition of thosepeople and those contributions.

Dean Klinkenberg (10:09):
Right, there have been black folks living in
Hannibal from the beginning.

Faye Dant (10:14):
Oh, absolutely.

Dean Klinkenberg (10:15):
And yet, there's very little that the
town museums or historic siteshave to say about the
experiences of the black folkswho've lived there.

Faye Dant (10:26):
That's true. And here's the real truth, I in
doing this work, have discoveredso much, much, much. I mean,
about our businesses, about whenand where they were and who had
what, and who did what, and and,you know what? I discovered we
had a black newspaper here in1914. It was a weekly, and it

(10:52):
was, it was published by one ofour ministers, but it was
created to do to do what I'mdoing, do some uplifting. I
mean, you know, we there's a lotof reporting about the crimes
and negative things, but thispublisher took it upon himself
to take it in another direction.

Dean Klinkenberg (11:15):
Wow. 1914 so I can't, yeah, I have a copy of
your book, 'Hannibal'sInvisibles,' which I have
finished reading, and there'ssome really fantastic stories in
that. Why don't we just sort ofgo through some of the history
of the local community, andlet's go back to the very first
African Americans who lived inHannibal. What do you know about

(11:35):
who those first black folks werein Hannibal?

Faye Dant (11:41):
I came across several formerly enslaved people who
participate in the slavenarratives that you know, that
program, that WPA programcreated in the 30s to give folks
jobs, writers and photographers,those kinds of folks. Well, one

(12:02):
of their main charges was to goaround the country interviewing
formerly enslaved people. Andthey landed here in Hannibal,
and there are at least fivepeople that are on that list who
get to tell their stories. Andthe really funny thing is there,
there's the what they tell andwho they talk about in those

(12:24):
narratives. From that I canfigure out who their descendants
are, and I can figure out whothe descendants of their owners
or the enslavers were. So thatthat's a that that's been a bevy
of information. Jacob Lowe, asa matter of fact, one of the,
one of the people that land thatcame with Moses Bates, the

(12:46):
so-called founder. He in he wasprobably an old man, but he got
to write his story, and it waspublished in one of our early,
obviously one of our earliestnewspapers here. So I get to a
sense for for him and and he iswhat I would describe as one of
our pioneers.

Dean Klinkenberg (13:07):
So what did you learn about his life? What
did he, what did he describeabout his experiences during
that time?

Faye Dant (13:13):
Well, he's only 14 years old when Bates bought him
from a person out of Virginiaand he mentions three other
people that came with him. Hetalked about the work they did,
clearing the land and buildingthose first log cabins. And you

(13:34):
know what, like many, I'll sayit that way, many of those slave
narratives and those people thattalk, some of them talk about
the horrendous and the horriblebehavior of the enslavers, but
it's kind of matter of fact,when they, when they share those
stories, they don't, you know,it's just was life and the way

(13:59):
it was, and and that's what youkind of get from, you know, from
from their tellings.

Dean Klinkenberg (14:05):
Right. So he was 14, and he came with three
other people. Do we know, do youknow anything about the other
three folks who came with him?

Faye Dant (14:14):
Well, not as much. We do know their names, Jemima and
Robert, and forgive me, I'm notgoing to remember the other
name, and I swore not to dothat, because what I try to do
it at the museum is give thesefolks names, you know, not make
them invisible, if you will. Butat any rate, we do, we do know

(14:34):
those names, and I have thosenames on full display at the
museum, and because there are nolast names or anything like
that, other than the Jacob Lowethere are no last names. I
can't, I can't research him orfind out anything more.

Dean Klinkenberg (14:52):
Right. That's part of the struggle with
documenting, particularly whenyou get back to the period of
enslavement, you know, enslavedpeople were essentially
invisible, or nearly invisible.
It's very, very difficult tolearn much about their lives or
even their identities from thatperiod of time, as I understand
it.

Faye Dant (15:13):
Oh yes, my Mom, this, this is so interesting to me. My
Mom was born in 1921 she hadneighbors who had been enslaved.
I mean, obviously they'd beenenslaved as children, but that
that was their reality, and itthat it seems like they took the

(15:37):
shame of an they took theinstitution of enslavement upon
themselves as an embarrassment.
And we're kind of, you know,let's not talk about those days.
Let's not talk about that.

Dean Klinkenberg (15:55):
Wow, interesting. So they were
embarrassed to have beenenslaved.

Faye Dant (16:01):
Yes, like it was yes.
And in fact, that's kind of whywe moved away from calling them
slaves. We call them theenslaved because we, I think the
in my reading, it turns out thata slave may suggest that he had
some he she was at fault forthat somehow.

Dean Klinkenberg (16:24):
Wow, the burdens people carry with them,
right?

Faye Dant (16:30):
Hey, now I also am a firm believer that that evil is
in our DNA as well. Yeah, youcan't be an overseer and have 10
children and not have some ofthat going on in their heads, in
their blood, in their DNA.

Dean Klinkenberg (16:47):
Right, right.
Well, so for Jacob, then, do youknow where, who he had
descendants that were still inHannibal after?

Faye Dant (16:58):
No, no, I have not been able to find that out? No,
I haven't been able to identifyany of those people. I should
say it that way. But I do knowhe stayed and died here in
Hannibal. Well, just like DanielQuarles, the prototype for Jim,
he lived the emancipated DanielQuarles lived and died here in
Hannibal.

Dean Klinkenberg (17:18):
All right, are there markers for where they're
buried?

Faye Dant (17:23):
No, no, I can't, I can't find a death certificate
or anything about DanielQuarles, but I will say we have
a cemetery here. It's called'Old Baptist' and since there
are other enslaved people,slaves that are buried there.

(17:45):
And there are United StatesColored Troops buried there. I'm
gonna guess that that's where hewas buried. And now this is so
funny to me, in that, in that,in that period, the
post-emancipation, we had anundertaker. You know, I don't

(18:05):
know how he supposedly got histraining or anything like that,
but his death certificateidentifies him as an undertaker
and and the death certificatesof some of these people also
give him that props for doingthat service. So I think that's
very interesting.

Dean Klinkenberg (18:26):
Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit about
sort of the neighborhoods thenin Hannibal, where post
emancipation, where AfricanAmericans lived, as I recall
from the book, there were threeor four different sections of
town that were African Americanneighborhoods.

Faye Dant (18:43):
Oh yes, yes, we had, well, you know, I told you, I
grew up in Douglasville, andthen we had what was called the
West Side, and I'm gonna say itthis way, that's where the more
prominent Hannibalians livedbecause it stay. It took a long

(19:03):
time to turn that black. Therewere a lot of white folks that,
you know, hung in there, but itwas the west side, and it's
where a lot of the ourentrepreneurs and ministers and
teachers. It's where a lot ofthem lived. And then we have The
Bottoms, which is similar toDouglasville being the working

(19:27):
class. But you know the floods,The Bottoms, by that I mean it
was right in the floodplain. Sothe floods came, they left their
homes the water receded, theycame back, rebuilt. You know,
it's just that that kind ofspace that was also an African

(19:49):
American neighborhood, and Iwill say this, it was redlining
was a thing here in Hannibal,well, like everywhere. But at
any rate, not only was itredlining but there were also
sundown neighborhoods here intown. We knew. We were taught
where it was safe for a blackperson to wander into and where

(20:13):
it was unsafe. And unsafe meantyou obviously there was going to
be some name calling, and, youknow some bloody noses, and you
know all of that, but ourparents, you know, and I say
that's more insidious than thesigns. Our parents had to teach
us where it was safe to go andand you know how to behave.

Dean Klinkenberg (20:35):
Right. So you have these black majority or
black only neighborhoods in thecity, and you have the rest of
the city that might have beenokay for you to visit during
daylight hours, but once the sunstarted to get that to go down,
you had to get out of there andgo back to your own neighborhood
essentially.

Faye Dant (20:53):
Absolutely, yes. I have a friend of mine, a white
woman who lives in lived in oneof those neighborhoods, and she
said her deed actually said thatif you have a black person even
working for you, be sure they'regone by sundown.

Dean Klinkenberg (21:09):
Wow.

Faye Dant (21:09):
So, it was horrible.

Dean Klinkenberg (21:12):
Yeah, do you have a copy of those deeds by
any chance at the museum? Haveyou ever had a chance?

Faye Dant (21:17):
I do know that owner and I should reach out to that
person. I'm going to make a noteof that.

Dean Klinkenberg (21:23):
That would be a valuable document to have,
because I think a lot of peopleare unaware of just how deep and
how institutionalized thosepractices were.
So well, let's, let's talk alittle bit about daily life than
in Hannibal, for if you'reAfrican American,

(21:44):
post-emancipation, what weresome of the opportunities that
were available to you?

Faye Dant (21:51):
Well, it was pretty limited. For example, I have a
1927 color directory, and inthat directory, it talks about a
population of about 20,000 andabout 4000 black people. But

(22:13):
within that there are 72 cooksand 25 chauffeurs. I mean, you
know it so, so we know what, weknow what they were doing, what
we were doing. So you know thatthat kind of document actually
highlights it for us. Anotherthing that that that directory

(22:35):
had, and some death certificatesI've come across, we had our own
fire department. We had to haveour own mailman. We had to have
our own policemen. In theearliest days, they were called
watchmen. So we were indeed acommunity within.

Dean Klinkenberg (22:53):
So you had to create your own institutions
then essentially, too.

Faye Dant (22:56):
Absolutely, yeah, grocery stores. Yeah, I read a
newspaper article that talkedabout one of the white grocers
here, and it talked about how hegave, how he sold the oldest
meat he had to the black people,you know, just, I mean, you know

(23:22):
that there's, it was pretty,pretty powerful discrimination,
if you will.

Dean Klinkenberg (23:29):
Right. So I get, if you were a young black
person who had dreams of, Idon't know that, becoming a
scientist, or, you know, doingsomething ambitious of that
kind, probably, you wouldn'tnecessarily think about staying
in Hannibal, I would guess then.

Faye Dant (23:47):
Oh, absolutely you were encouraged to leave. My two
things come to mind. Mystepfather born, excuse me, my
father in law, born in 1909encouraged all five of his
children to leave, because ifyour day, if you stay here, I'm
quoting him now, if you stayhere, they're going to want,
want to give you an apron or abroom. And again, that that was

(24:13):
just his reality and his youknow, the lesson, if you will,
that he taught his children. Andthen now, even today, if you
have a kid that you know is isbright and has goals and
aspirations, you know you'regoing to lose them. They're not
going to they're not going tostay here, they're not going to

(24:36):
be here. Even though it'schanged some, I mean, there's
one person that worked to thebank, and there's one person
that that we just for anexample, we had one black
council person here in the '80s.
When she termed out, theyskinnied the council down from

(24:56):
from 12 down to six, and sincethen we've not had another black
council person. The schoolprincipals. While there are more
schools, elementary, middleschool, high school, there has
not been a high school principalsince 1959 so I mean, the more
things change, the more theystay the same. You know that

(25:22):
that's a reality here. So kidswith any kind of gumption are
going to leave.

Dean Klinkenberg (25:31):
What was it at one time, something like 25% of
Hannibal's population was black,and now it's it's much smaller
portion of the city'spopulation.

Faye Dant (25:40):
Oh yes, it's more like 5 to 7%. So, you know with
that, Dean, it's amazing that Ieven am able to do this work,
because we don't have thenumbers to to demand it. So

(26:03):
it's, it's, it's an interestingthought. I'll just say it that

Dean Klinkenberg (26:07):
Well, let's talk a little bit too about some
way.
of back in those postemancipation and those
communities. Let's talk a littlebit about some of the
cornerstones of the community.
Then, what were the places thatwere kind of the foundations of
community life, if you wereliving one of those in
Douglasville or the bottoms orone of the other part black

(26:27):
communities in town?

Faye Dant (26:31):
Yeah, well, Douglasville, it's really
interesting. It had, not onlywas it the first black community
enslaved, formerly enslavedhomeowners, but that's where our
first log cabin school, one,three room, no, one three
grades, one room school wasbuilt. It's where our first

(26:52):
church was built, in the in thein Hannibal, 1837. Eighth and
Center Street Baptist Church. Inour oldest city directories,
they refer to it as the AfricanChurch. And you know some of
those other places on that tourthat I spoke with you a little

(27:14):
earlier about, there is thenotion that all of our business
were at this in this littlesection of town called The
Wedge. But it turns out that'snot true. We were all over town.
We were part of what they nowcall Hannibal Historic District.

(27:36):
In fact, I pointed to a bill. Ipoint to a building on the tour.
The address is 318 Main andwhile there is a sign on the
building that talks about theage of the building and the
businesses that were there, theymake no mention of the fact that
a black man owned it, named, hewas called Texas Joe, and he had

(27:58):
a a cafe and a hotel in thatbuilding or on that site. But at
any rate, it's things like thatthat I get to point out and and
folks like that that I get touplift.

Dean Klinkenberg (28:12):
Right. Well, you mentioned the schools too,
so tell us a little bit aboutthat school history too. Is that
you had, there was segregationin education right up until
Brown versus Board of Education,if I remember right.

Faye Dant (28:25):
Correct.

Dean Klinkenberg (28:25):
So there was, was there, there was a single
grade school and a separate highschool. And how did that work
for black folks?

Faye Dant (28:36):
In the early years, there were as many as three
little elementary schools. Andthen they built the high school
in like 1880, something likethat. And from 1880, I'll say,

(28:58):
for the next five or six yearsthere were those two or three
little one room schools, andthen those were gradually
closed, and we all, and myparents is who I'm talking
about, went over down then toour big, huge Douglass School,
an eight room brick buildingthat was built around that time.

(29:20):
It was, it was beautifulstructure, as far as I can
remember, I went there throughthe third grade, and my
experience is very differentfrom some of the other people
that I I talk with. In my book,I have like, two or three 90
year old women that I interview,and their experience with

(29:42):
Douglas is very different frommine, but it was all about not
only teaching us reading,writing and arithmetic, but they
taught us morals and ethics andhow, mainly how to behave,
because someday, particularlythat. The class, oh, I'll say,

(30:02):
from the 1950s they knewintegration was coming, so they
spent a lot of time teaching us,or teaching those kids, how to
behave when you go over to thewhite school. And here's the
wonderful thing about those kidsthat went over that first class,
five or six of those kids madethe, it was the honor society.

(30:28):
That's what it was called backand I think they still had that,
but at any rate, so they hadbeen properly prepared to make
that transition and that, youknow, I find that that's just so
beautiful to me. And I cameacross that in once they went
over the first few years, theystopped publishing the even the

(30:50):
white yearbooks, and I don'tknow why, but they had these
things called newsletters, andI, let excuse me, newsletters,
and I found those. And in thosethings, it is highlighted who
excelled in sports and oracademics, and there we are on
all those lists.

Dean Klinkenberg (31:10):
Wow. So I'm curious now. You about this?
What? What were they teachingthe black kids about how they
were supposed to behave? Whatwere some of the lessons like,
what were they trying to get?
How were they trying to get kidsto behave once they became what
schools were integrated?

Faye Dant (31:30):
One thing that kind of comes to mind, you could
imagine the poverty that thatwas, that was the reality of
those times, particularly forblack people, but for everybody,
everybody was struggling, iswhat I contend, you know, small
little town with littlemanufacturing and, you know, few
jobs of any substance. At anyrate, one woman told me that the

(31:52):
main thing this, their teacherharped on was, be sure you take
a bath once a week. Be sure yourclothes are clean. Be sure
you're you know, remember yourmanners, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am.
So that that's that, those werethe early lessons about
behavior.

Dean Klinkenberg (32:12):
So the Douglass School, so that that
school was for black studentsfrom basically kindergarten
through high school, is thatright?

Faye Dant (32:22):
Well, we didn't have kindergarten back then.

Dean Klinkenberg (32:24):
All right.

Faye Dant (32:25):
First grade through high school, but we had some
feeder communities. That's whatmakes it so crazy, from as far
as 30 miles, one way, kid, blackkids came here to Douglass to go
to school. And some of themboarded here with families, and

(32:48):
some of them caught rides. Andone of the one group from New
London, and you know, those thatpart of the the Marion County,
they actually caught a littletrain, a short line is what it
was called to get here toschool. And that that's

(33:08):
interesting to me. I wasn'taware of any of that. I just, I
just know we walk, I, as anindividual, walked and stood in
front of the white school so Icould catch a bus to go to the
colored school.

Dean Klinkenberg (33:20):
Right. I was going to mention that that, I
think that was one of the linesI remembered from your from your
book, is that the pointing out,part of the absurdity of this
whole arrangement is you walkeda mile to go to the white school
that was the closest school toyou, but that was just so you
could get on a bus to rideanother five miles to get to the
Douglass school, right?

Faye Dant (33:40):
Yes. oh, that's crazy, but that was the reality.
I may not be, I may be off alittle bit with the distances,
but it, but I will tell youthis, it was in all kinds of
weather. We didn't get snow daysback then.

Dean Klinkenberg (33:58):
Right. So you were around during that period.
You were going to school at thetime, the Hannibal schools were
integrated?

Faye Dant (34:07):
I did. I integrated.
I went over to the fourth grade,the only little black girl in my
class.

Dean Klinkenberg (34:13):
Wow.

Faye Dant (34:14):
I feel like I didn't get called on when I raised my
hand, I feel like I didn't getpicked for dodgeball. I feel
like you can imagine, Deanyou've met me. I was a rising
star in the black in our littleblack school, and then I go over

(34:34):
here, and I'm almost ignored. Soit wasn't and I think a lot of
black kids felt that way. Itjust, it just wasn't a great
experience. In fact, one of myfriends, a classmate of mine,
another black girl, went, shewent to another school, and we
liken ourselves to rape victims.
I don't remember hardly any ofthe teachers. I don't remember

(34:58):
hardly any. Of the kids, I don'tyou know, it's just all kind of
a blank.

Dean Klinkenberg (35:05):
Right. And it was like that throughout your
educational experience inHannibal, all the way through
high school.

Faye Dant (35:12):
It may have gotten better in high school, but not
much better. We were notcheerleaders. We could join the
pep squad and anything, anythingthat was up to the individual,
we could we, you know, they hadno choice but but to accept our

(35:39):
expertise, you know, ourcontribution to whatever. But if
it was kind of a team thing, ityou weren't going to get picked.
It was, it was no cheerleaders,no no quarterbacks, definitely.
And you know, in sports it was,the rule was three on the road

(36:02):
and two at home on the floor atone time.

Dean Klinkenberg (36:09):
Explain that.
What does that mean exactly?

Faye Dant (36:12):
That meant, you know, a basketball team that has five
people, right, only three blackscould be on the court at one
time. And at home it was onlytwo.

Dean Klinkenberg (36:23):
Wow, wow.

Faye Dant (36:27):
Oh yeah. Well, we had, there were booster clubs.
There were, you know, but thatthat's real. In fact, look up
that term. It's, you can Googleit. I think that first black
basketball coach down in Texas.
I think he's the one that thatbroke that rule. There was a
movie about him. I don't, I'mnot. I'm not very good about

(36:48):
remembering movies, but.

Dean Klinkenberg (36:53):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting
myself. Just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guide books for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also write
the Frank Dodge mystery seriesthat is set in places along the
Mississippi. My newest book,'The Wild Mississippi' goes deep

(37:17):
into the world of Old Man River.
Learn about the varied andcomplex ecosystem supported by
the Mississippi, the plant andanimal life that depends on
them. And where you can go toexperience it all. Find any of
these wherever books are sold.
So what? What was youreducational experience like
then? Were you just pretty muchexpected to read the books on

(37:42):
your own and get through thematerial on your own. Like, how
much assistance did you get tolearn, especially compared with
the white students in thoseclasses?

Faye Dant (37:52):
I don't know that it was that blatant, but I did
learn on my own. In fact, myJoel, my husband and I, we talk
about this a lot. We graduatedfrom that school. We were able
to excel in college. I was ableto get this, you know, get
accepted into the University ofMichigan, which is a pretty
decent school. And I did wellthere. I mean, so it must have

(38:15):
been, you know, it must havebeen all right in that respect.

Dean Klinkenberg (38:18):
I was gonna say, or you're just one of those
motivated people who was goingto succeed, but anyway, you were
saying so for if you're aborderline.

Faye Dant (38:36):
If you were borderline or or needed that
extra assistance. You didn'tnecessarily receive that. And
there were a lot of kids thatdropped out, and there were a
lot of kids that I think it waseasier to do it back then, that
just opted out of school. Theydid no high school for them, you

(38:59):
know, all that, so. And it mayhave been for a number of
reasons. Some of them had towork, didn't feel like they had
the right clothes, the right youknow, whatever. And then some of
them, after they got there,learned that they weren't going
to get any kind of support orhelp. Those were the dropouts as
well.

Dean Klinkenberg (39:18):
Right. Did the economic opportunities open up
any after the schools wereintegrated?

Faye Dant (39:28):
Uh, maybe. But let me say this, on my list of
notables, I have people like thefirst one that got hired Social
Security Office. I mean, youknow, it was that those, those
kind of little baby steps, in1970 I think, yeah, '70, I was

(39:51):
the first black waitress hiredat a white restaurant. We were
always in the back, but there. Iwas front facing, and they
didn't play that. I mean, youknow, and so I did get some
insults. I mean, you know, itwas, yeah, but that, that's,
that's Hannibal. And I hear, Ikeep saying, Hannibal, I think

(40:16):
it's every community. I think mystory is universal. And I don't
think it has to be rural. Ithink it's it urban areas. And,

Dean Klinkenberg (40:25):
Right. Yeah, we're not trying to pick on
you know.
Hannibal in particular here.
These experiences happened in alot of communities around the
country, and not just in theSouth.

Faye Dant (40:36):
Yes.

Dean Klinkenberg (40:38):
Well, this, this is the Mississippi Valley
Traveler podcast. I have to aska little bit about, and I think
you have a little bit in thebook about this, but can you
just talk a little bit about,like, the relationship you've
been able to ascertain aboutblack folks and the Mississippi
River in Hannibal?

Faye Dant (40:58):
Well, I think we think of it and we embrace
embraced it more for sustenance.
I mean, it's we fished, we therewas no boating, there was no
skiing, there was, you know,none of that and and very little
swimming. As a matter of fact, Ican, I can. We get admonished,

(41:19):
definitely, don't go swimmingwith any white kids. But at any
rate, no swimming or anythinglike that. But, but the the fish
fries and, and, you know, allthat stuff stands out as I think
about the river, and I thinkabout the fact that those fish
fries, you know, they went intothing like, things like, oh,

(41:42):
scholarship money and and churchanniversaries. I mean, that's
what the river meant to us. Andwe everything that came, I
didn't because I I just didn't,but most people ate everything
that came out of that river. Theeels and the bullhead is

(42:04):
something, and the crop carpand, you know, all these things
that, oh, every everything cameout of there was, it was going
to get eaten. It was no fish andrelease.

Dean Klinkenberg (42:19):
Right, right.
Well, you know, it's a good wayto supplement your diet, right?
Because, especially if you'restruggling financially, then you
catch some fish, and that's freefood. And I'm sure people came
up with their own spins on howto cook and prepare many of
those.

Faye Dant (42:38):
Yeah, and we were big foragers and big hunters.

Dean Klinkenberg (42:45):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah. So I think you wrote
in the in the book some too. Youhad a little bit about
advocating for change. And Ithink there was a story about
the time that George Wallace,the former Alabama governor and
one time presidential candidate,came to Hannibal. Can you tell a

(43:08):
little bit about sort of thatmovement to advocate for broader
change in the community, andthen a little bit about George
Wallace's appearance in town?

Faye Dant (43:20):
You know, I think movement might be an exact might
be, might be an exaggeration. Hecame that with the Klan was
definitely a part of ourbackground landscape, if you
will. They invited GeorgeWallace here in 1968 when he was

(43:45):
running for President. Excuseme, President, and his event was
at Central Park. It turns out,however, that while there were
plenty white folks, and I don'tknow any of them. I I can't
figure that out, but there wereabout 200 protesters, and I was

(44:07):
in, no, I was just out of highschool, and I was one of those
protesters that was there, meand and all of my cousins and
brothers and neighbors. And, youknow, we were there protesting,
and I'm going to say we wereloud enough or demonstrated
enough that they were, I don'tknow if the word is intimidated,

(44:31):
but they did not have a paradethey had planned for the next
day. So we felt good about that.
That made the Associated Press.
And so I get to show thesepictures to my grandkids of me
there in the crowd protestingGeorge Wallace,

Dean Klinkenberg (44:49):
Wow.

Faye Dant (44:51):
But I don't call it a movement. We that was the one
incident, and I don't know ofany other. I. I don't mean I
don't know. Well, I was gone, soI can't testify to that, but I
know that since I've been back,I have been involved in several
protests, one having to do withthe climate change, another

(45:21):
having to do with GeorgeWallace, and then more recently,
having to do with with thecurrent administration. So we
are more active now, but therewas a whole period in there
where we were looking to DC andthose other folks to do it for

(45:42):
us.

Dean Klinkenberg (45:44):
So there wasn't much going on locally to
really push for much change?

Faye Dant (45:48):
Not that I recall. We did have an NAACP, and that was,
you know, I'm not, I'm not surehow active or they were anything
like that.

Dean Klinkenberg (46:02):
I imagine a lot of people felt it was
probably risky to them to takemuch of a stand, you know,
economically, maybe even totheir physical health or the
threat of violence, was alwaysthere. Were those
considerations?

Faye Dant (46:15):
Oh, I'm sure they were, yes. But nobody actually
spoke about it, not that I can,not that I can recall. And you
know what it was probablybecause we didn't have the
signage. It just probably madeit easier not to, not to

(46:43):
protest, not to, not to beinvolved in the Civil Rights
Movement in a in a big way.

Dean Klinkenberg (46:51):
Right. Well, let's talk about a couple of the
people that you mentioned in thebook too, that I want to just
give us a sense about who theywere and what their lives were
like. You mentioned Joe Douglas,who's the namesake for the
neighborhood that you lived in.
So tell us a little bit abouthim.

Faye Dant (47:10):
Yes, I know that he died at a 102, here in Hannibal
of ptomaine poisoning, ptomainepoisoning, eating pickles,
pickled pig's feet. I know thathe lived on Hill Street in
Douglasville, and I know thatI've been able to acquire or

(47:31):
been able to create a monumentto him over there. So we have
that. And I know that he couldnot have been Injun Joe, like
the city still claims, becausehe didn't get here until nine
years after Twain left, SamuelClemens at that time, nine years

(47:53):
after he left. So that's the endof that story. But the
community, the stakeholders, thefolks that run the cave, the
folks that run the trolley, theyall still refer to him, to him
as Injun Joe.

Dean Klinkenberg (48:10):
So he was able to acquire some property. Is
that right?

Faye Dant (48:16):
Yes, yes. Not far, not so far from, from downtown,
you know, where most of thesettlement went on. So, yeah,
but little plots of land overthere and that became those,
those that space became our,became our homes, and where our

(48:38):
schools, first schools andchurches were built.

Dean Klinkenberg (48:43):
So what kind of background did he have? He
had access to a little bit ofmoney, at least, to be able to
buy the property. Do you knowmuch about what his work life
was like?

Faye Dant (48:54):
Oh, I know it. He was, he was called a hostler.
That's what it says on his deathcertificate. And I've been able
to decide, well, I've decidedthat that's like a baggage
handler at the river. And youcan imagine how much work, how
much activity went on there, youknow, cargo on and off the
boats, and you know, all ofthat. So he stayed busy enough,

(49:17):
and he got paid for his work, asI understand it,

Dean Klinkenberg (49:22):
Maybe even had a chance for some tips from a
few people if he was...

Faye Dant (49:26):
Oh, yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (49:27):
Yeah, back, that was back at a time when
Hannibal still had a busyriverfront.

Faye Dant (49:34):
Well, we're busy now.
We we have the cruise ships, andwe have a new pavilion there,
and, you know, so we're trying.

Dean Klinkenberg (49:45):
Right. All right. So he was able to
purchase all those this sectionof land, and then I guess he
started subdividing it andoffering lots to people to live
on or build their homes on?

Faye Dant (49:59):
That's it. That is the way I understand the story.
It's how I understand the story.
And you I mean, you know, wehave, we're very fortunate. We
have city directories datingback to 1859 all those are
digitized, so you can see wherepeople lived and worked back
then and who their neighbors.

(50:20):
We're very fortunate to havethat.

Dean Klinkenberg (50:26):
Well, let's go on to one other person you
mentioned too, and I recognizehis name because I went to
college in La Crosse, Wisconsin,and when I was working on the
history section about La Crossefor my guidebook, I was I found
a book on African Americanhistory in La Crosse, and his

(50:47):
name was mentioned prominently.
So it's George, I'm gonna say"Page", is that how you
pronounce his last name?

Faye Dant (50:53):
No, George Coleman Poage. We have listed him as the
first black Olympic medalwinner.

Dean Klinkenberg (51:03):
So tell us a little bit about him. So he was
born in Hannibal?

Faye Dant (51:07):
Born in Hannibal, 1804. 1884, I misspoke. His
parents were enslaved peoplehere, the Poages was his father,
and he belonged to the veryprominent family. Family here,

(51:27):
they're the Poages, and they owncar dealerships, and, you know,
have done well for themselvesonce they got out of farming. At
any rate, him and his mother,she was actually, again, from
Ralls County, a little Perry.
Perry, Missouri. He had the thefather had the wherewithal to

(51:51):
leave Hannibal when, when Georgewas only four years old. And so
he packed up his wife andGeorge, and I think it was two
sisters, and they all moved toLa Crosse. He was, Lacrosse is
interesting. Well, you've readthe history. They had a lot of
black barbers there, and theyseemed to have done okay. He

(52:15):
went to an integrated school,and he was one of the first to
go to University of Wisconsin. Iprobably read the same thing
that you said, excuse me, thatyou read that talked about how
being only one of 100 blacks wasso different. And his you and

(52:39):
his and his background is sodifferent from his counterparts,
I'll say it that way, that thatwe're still here in Hannibal.
You know, he was able to do allthose things, but he also didn't
have the support of a strongblack community. There were no

(53:00):
masons, there was no blackschool. There was, you know,
whatever he did, he just didwith his, with his own, from his
own wherewithal. And he and hisboth his sisters, they all
graduated from the integratedschools there. And he, once. he
graduated from University ofWisconsin, he was recruited to

(53:23):
do the Olympics, 1904 in StLouis. You know that Olympics
was very, very segregated, andif you read a man name, I don't
know, "Our City is Crying," Ithink is the name of the book.
Have you read that?

Dean Klinkenberg (53:43):
I don't think so.

Faye Dant (53:45):
Well, he talks about the the Olympics, and, you know,
they had black people as pygmiesand on display. I mean, just
all, and it was the theattendance, all that was
segregated. We could only oneday a week or something. At any
rate, he participated in that,and he just stayed there in St

(54:06):
Louis and taught at Sumner for acouple years, and then he moved
to Minnesota, I think, for acouple years, and ended up in
Chicago where he died. I wish Icould visit his his home. I have
the address where he died, but Ihave not visited that site. It
looks like it's right there onon the Lakeshore around that

(54:27):
area. Worked as a mail sorter atthe big post office there in
Chicago for a number of years.
And he does have descendantsthat return to La Crosse on
occasion, I think they went whenthey unveiled this huge, 30 foot

(54:48):
bronze sculpture to dedicate itto George Poage, and they named
a park after him. Theinteresting thing about the
park, and I just learned thisfrom one of my visitors to the
museum, is that the park used tobe Hood Park, so I don't know
how, oh, how generous they werein doing all that, but at any

(55:17):
rate, that's what I've learned,and that's about what I know
about it.

Dean Klinkenberg (55:24):
All Right, so what was the sport that he
meddled in in the Olympics?

Faye Dant (55:28):
The 400.

Dean Klinkenberg (55:32):
I probably should do a whole lot.

Faye Dant (55:35):
I think they were hurdles. Is it called a hurdle?
Have you been to La Crosse tosee his monument?

Dean Klinkenberg (55:44):
I don't remember seeing that. So yeah, I
think the next time I still getup there once or twice a year,
so I will need to find that thenext time.

Faye Dant (55:51):
Oh, yeah, and the park, whole park.

Dean Klinkenberg (55:57):
Yeah, I'm not sure I even knew about that. So
yeah, I got to look those up thenext time I'm up there.

Faye Dant (56:02):
Well, when I was sent doing the research for him, I
reached out to their chamber. Asa matter of fact, they have
t-shirts, George Poage t-shirts.

Dean Klinkenberg (56:13):
Wow. And so that that name is still there
around Hannibal, those arecousins or relatives or
something, the car dealer youmentioned?

Faye Dant (56:23):
Oh, those, those are the enslavers. Those are only
the white people. There are noblack folks around,.

Dean Klinkenberg (56:30):
Okay.

Faye Dant (56:31):
Oh, no, no, no,

Dean Klinkenberg (56:35):
That's what I was curious about.

Faye Dant (56:37):
Yep, yep, that's who's that's who's left here.

Dean Klinkenberg (56:40):
All right.
Well, let's go on to one othertopic. And I'm kind of looking
at the time and thinking, we'regoing to wind down here a little
bit, but I've got to ask aboutthis. You grew up in Hannibal,
at Hannibal schools, into theHannibal educational system. I'm
just sort of curious, what as akid, like when you were growing
up, what do you remember hearingabout or learning about with
Mark Twain?

Faye Dant (57:06):
It wasn't, it wasn't a lot I remember reading. It was
Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn.
Well, obviously not remembering,but in the 11th grade, it must
have been Huckleberry Finn,because I remember the
embarrassment of having to readabout about Jim and having to

(57:27):
use the N word in the classroom.
And again, I feel like like theenslaver in that the shame was
on me and not not them forchuckling, or, you know,
thinking, thinking it wasopportunity to take advantage of

(57:50):
some name calling. And I didn'tnecessarily. And black people
here still don't necessarilythink a lot of Mark Twain. They,
you know, I talked to mycontemporaries and and they call
him just an old white man whowas an alcoholic. That's how
they kind of think of him. Theydon't, I mean, you know, not the

(58:12):
literary giant that some peoplesee. But I will say this, I re,
I went away with that thinking,because everything was all about
Twain, and I had to kind ofunlearn that and come to
appreciate him as the firstwhite author to make an enslaved
man, a person, a man, and givehim children and make him a

(58:35):
mentor to that little white boy.
And then all of his essays, hisessays are way more valuable and
tell us way more about SamuelClemens than any of his
children's books. So at anyrate, I've come to appreciate
him, and that's kind of what Ido in the black community. I
uplift him as much as I can,

Dean Klinkenberg (58:56):
Right. So it's interesting, because it kind of
sounds like, especially likefrom that school experience, if
you're you kind of come awaywith this feeling that he isn't
somebody relevant to your life.
He's just another part of thewhite institutions that are

(59:16):
demeaning your life. But there'snot much of a sense beyond that,
maybe for who he was, or his hishis status.

Faye Dant (59:29):
No, not at all.

Dean Klinkenberg (59:30):
Yeah. How do you think Hannibal presents Mark
Twain today? I put you on thespot, and you don't have to
answer if you don't want to.

Faye Dant (59:44):
Well, two things I'll say the former director, who's
since retired, when I approachedhim about adding Jim's Journey
to their list of options interms of learning about Twain.
He said that our story is allabout Tom and Becky. So he

(01:00:05):
rejected me outright. Thecurrent director is younger, not
quite this scholar about SamuelClemens, as this other guy
considered himself to be. But atany rate, I know that she
recently invited a a high dollarconsultant in to talk about how

(01:00:30):
they can retain tourism at thelevel that it was. And I was
definitely on that list ofpeople that the consultant
wanted to reach out to andwanted to embrace, because I
contend it's a missedopportunity. Jim Journey could

(01:00:51):
bring a whole different group oftourists into Hannibal. They
don't uplift me like that, butthey have come to include me
more. And you know, I'm talkingabout Jim's Journey.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:01:10):
Yeah, right, yeah. And my feeling all along
has been that there's sort ofalmost a Disneyland approach to
presenting Mark Twain and hisbooks in Hannibal, and I don't
feel like that's a very accurateportrayal of who he was or what

(01:01:31):
he even wrote. So I wish thatthey would, I wish the city
would embrace a little morecomplicated view and a more
nuanced view, or complete view,of what Twain was and what he
wrote about. I think the Museumdoes okay. I need to go back
there and look again, but I kindof felt like the last time I was

(01:01:56):
there and I went around thewhole museum, it seemed like
they had a pretty good I thoughtthey went in pretty good depth,
but, but yeah, I think there'splenty of room to do more and
get beyond this oversimplifiedchild's view of Mark Twain.

Faye Dant (01:02:09):
And you know, I have, I will say this, though I've
also admonished them about theimages they have of Jim. The
first, I guess, artists show Jimin kind of a demeaning way, not,

(01:02:33):
not very flattering at all, kindof like the Aunt Jemimas, right?
And when, when folks startedchanging the appearance of Aunt
Jemima, I contend that theyshould have started changing the
images they have of Jim, butthey haven't, and they won't. So
that's that goes on and on.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:02:55):
Right. Well, so you we do have some control
over, like steering people tothe right places. So tell us.
You know, if you're a visitorcoming to Hannibal and you want
to learn more about AfricanAmerican history, what should
where should they go?

Faye Dant (01:03:13):
Well, they've got to come to Jim's Journey, The Huck
Finn Freedom Center, 509 NorthThird Street. But wait, Dean, I
think they'll also learn hereabout Clemens, the humanitarian.
I have a whole slew of peoplethat I talk about, that I
identified with, that identifiedthat he interacted with or he

(01:03:37):
wrote about, and he wrote aboutmany of them in a very
flattering way, and he upliftedmany of them. You just gotta,
you just gotta have a, maybe anopen mind when you're doing that
reading. But at any rate, Jim'sJourney is always available. And
I do a lot of a lot of privatetours, and we do have a website,

(01:03:58):
JimsJourney.org.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:03:59):
Alright, do you do you have any social media
profiles that people could checkout, Facebook, Instagram,
anything like that?

Faye Dant (01:04:08):
I have Jim's Journey Facebook page.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:04:13):
So what are, what are your hours? What are
the best times to catch Jim'sJourney open?

Faye Dant (01:04:21):
Again, I'm open Friday and Saturday, 11 to five,
and Sunday, one to five.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:04:27):
All right, and you mentioned the website. I
will post a link to that in theshow notes. Are there any other
things that you would recommendpeople do if they wanted to gain
a little more insight intoAfrican American life and
Hannibal, besides, obviously themandatory spot, Jim's Journey?

Faye Dant (01:04:47):
I'm not sure that I can say there's much in
Hannibal, you know, tangible.
There are no other institutionsor anything like that. But I
will direct them to to read"James." I enjoyed that that,
the new Pulitzer Prize winningnovel about about Jim the the
another sequel to HuckleberryFinn. And then I loved "My Jim",

(01:05:14):
it's by a woman named NancyRawles, and it's Sadie's story,
and she does a beautiful job inthere of telling us, teaching
us, sharing with us what lifewas like for the African
American female, the mother, thewife, the woman, and it was
somewhat different than it wasfor for enslaved men. So she

(01:05:39):
she's going to be highlightingthat for me when she comes on
June 27 and then on June 28we're going to have some readers
doing some excerpts from fromthe book. I have recruited a man
and a woman. They're bothstorytellers. So I've recruited
them to do some readings for us,and that should be interesting.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:04):
Fantastic. I will. I'll share those on my
social media accounts too, sothe word gets out about those
events, because that'll thoseevents will take place before
this podcast is live. But yeah,those sound fantastic. And if
people want a copy of your book,"Hannibal's Invisibles," how can

(01:06:25):
they find a copy of your book?

Faye Dant (01:06:27):
Well, I encourage you to go to Belt or Arcadia
Publishing, but if you want tobe lazy, you can do Amazon. It's
they all have copies availablefor like $25 I think.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:45):
All right, I will post links to that as well
in the show notes. Faye, thankyou so much. Thank you so much
for talking with me today andsharing your experiences growing
up in Hannibal and sharing yourstories about black life in
Hannibal. I really appreciateyou taking the time to talk with
me today.

Faye Dant (01:07:04):
Good Dean. Thank you for thinking of me and being
interested in all this.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:07:11):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes. I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon, you help keepthe program going. Just go to
patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the

(01:07:31):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guide books forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast is written and producedby me, Dean Klinkenberg.
Original Music by Noah Fence.
See you next time.