November 5, 2025 • 68 mins
Mary Ann Sternberg has spent twenty years challenging the idea that the River Road between Baton Rouge and New Orleans is nothing more than rows of noxious chemical plants interspersed with 19th century plantation houses, so in this episode, we dig into its past and present. Mary Ann begins by orienting us to the geography of the River Road and the region’s indigenous inhabitants. She describes the arrival of European settlers, which included an influx of Germans in the early 1700s. We talk about the role of the Mississippi River in the daily lives of people along the River Road and the development of early agriculture. She talks about the Slave Revolt of 1811 (also called the German Coast Uprising) and where visitors can learn more about that tragic event, as well as which plantations best incorporate the history of enslaved people into the stories they tell. We touch on the history of Canary Islanders and Cajuns who settled in the region, as well as the Jewish community in Donaldsonville. She describes the transition from agriculture to heavy industry, then we finish with a few tips about visiting the River Road.
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Mary Ann Sternberg (00:00):
That's what I was trying to do. I was trying
very hard to get people to seehow much more was out there than
was obvious, because most of itisn't obvious, and I was hoping
that by making people see howmuch history and culture was
(00:22):
still out there that theywouldn't regard it as just
Cancer Alley or PlantationParade. And I'm not sure that I
was highly successful, but Ispent over 20 years attempting
to do this, and I enjoyed everyminute of it.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:00):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and
(01:20):
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
information on the Mississippiat
MississippiValleyTraveler.com.
Let's get going.
Welcome to Episode 70 of theMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. Well, this will be thefinal episode of 2025. I'm
(01:41):
taking a break for the rest ofthe year, and we'll see what
next year has to offer. Ifyou're like me, you have
probably driven some of theRiver Road between Baton Rouge
and New Orleans, and maybe youeven were one of those folks who
sort of hurried to get down toNew Orleans and get through that
(02:02):
industrial corridor as quicklyas possible. Maybe you stopped
at a plantation for a quicktour, and that's probably about
all you really thought aboutthat area. Well, Mary Ann
Sternberg has spent 20 plusyears challenging the idea that
the River Road between BatonRouge and New Orleans is nothing
more than rows of noxiouschemical plants interspersed
(02:23):
with those 19th centuryplantation houses. So in this
episode, we dig deep into thepast and present of that
stretch. Mary Ann begins bygiving us a general orientation
to the geography of the RiverRoad. What part of the
Mississippi are we talkingabout. And describes the
region's indigenous inhabitants.
We then get into talking aboutsome of the early Europeans who
(02:46):
settled along the river there,including an influx of Germans
in the early 1700s. We talkabout the role of the
Mississippi River in their dailylives, how they adapted to life
along the river, how it wascentral to their movements from
place to place, and a little bitabout what agricultural products
were key in the earlydevelopment of that corridor. We
(03:09):
talked about the slave revolt of1811 which far too few people
know anything about, and offersome ideas on where people can
learn a little bit more aboutthat tragic event, as well as
which plantations really bestincorporate the history of
enslaved people into the storiesthey tell about that particular
plantation. We touch a littlebit on some other groups who've
(03:34):
also lived in this corridor,including some Canary Islanders
and Cajuns who settled in theregion, as well as a Jewish
community in Donaldsonville,where Mary Ann has a good story,
where she was tracing thehistory of the synagogue in that
particular town. We talk alittle bit about the transition
from agriculture to heavyindustry, and then we finish
(03:56):
with a few tips about gettingthe most from a visit along the
River Road. How to get away fromjust looking at the plantation
houses only or being in a hurryto get past the chemical plants.
It's a fun conversation. She hasa lot to offer, and I hope
you'll stick around and listento the whole thing.
(04:18):
Thanks to all of you whocontinue to show me some love
through patreon. For as littleas $1 a month, you can join that
community, make me smile and getearly access to each of these
episodes. Not a patreon kind ofperson. Well, you can show me
(04:39):
some love by buying me a coffee,go to
MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcastand at that site, you can learn
how to buy me a coffee and feedmy caffeine habit. At that same
location,MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast
you'll find all 69 previousepisodes. Notes, as well as the
(05:01):
show notes for each of thoseepisodes and for this one as
well. So take some time, go backand listen to each of those
episodes, look at the picturesand follow the links to find out
more about the topics in each ofthose episodes. And now on with
the interview.
(05:29):
Mary Ann Sternberg has been afreelance writer and nonfiction
author for 50 years. Herinterests include Louisiana
history and culture, naturalhistory, the arts, food ways and
travel as well as personalessays. She confesses to having
been lucky to write aboutsubjects that really interested
her, from a week long boat tripalong the Peruvian Amazon to
(05:51):
attending a rock concert withtwo of her children about 35
years ago, to a NewYorker.comfeature about a Baton Rouge
company that made dog treatsfrom nutria meat and much more.
She's the author of 'Along theRiver Road,' 'River Road
Rambler' and 'River Road RamblerReturns,' as well as 'Winding
Through Time' about BayouManchac, the historic Bayou that
(06:12):
was a distributary to theMississippi River and once
served as the internationalboundary between colonial Spain
and England in the 18th century.
Mary Ann, welcome to thepodcast.
Mary Ann Sternberg (06:22):
Thanks, Dean.
Dean Klinkenberg (06:23):
Why don't we start with a little orientation
to the geography here, there maybe some confusion when we talk
about the River Road versus theGreat River Road. So tell us
where we are on the Mississippiwhen you think of the River
Road, where are we?
Mary Ann Sternber (06:39):
Colloquially, down here in South Louisiana,
the River Road runs between NewOrleans and Baton Rouge. It's on
both sides of the river. Andthat's, of course, as opposed to
the Great River Road that startsall the way up, I guess,
Minneapolis or so, and comesdown and has a different profile
(07:03):
altogether. Well, I'd say thatthey overlap down here a little.
Dean Klinkenberg (07:09):
Right. So I guess the River Road in
Louisiana is also runsconcurrently with the Great
River Road through that area,but the Great River Road runs
well beyond that stretch.
Mary Ann Sternberg (07:21):
The Great River Road actually isn't
totally congruent here. I'mthinking it veers off in a few
places. And our River Road, youknow, I mean, should say River
Roads, because it's a road oneach side of the river, and it
(07:42):
traces generally the base of thelevee. And it doesn't really
veer from the levee, and doesn'tveer from the levee almost
anywhere except at Bonnet Carre,which is the spillway.
Dean Klinkenberg (07:58):
So it's a continuous pavement, but it's
also not the same highway numberfor that entire length from
Baton Rouge, New Orleans,either, right?
Mary Ann Sternberg (08:06):
Nope, no, yes. I didn't know what that
reflected about the LouisianaHighway Department, and I didn't
think I wanted to find out.
Dean Klinkenberg (08:18):
So how did you get interested in this this
area?
Mary Ann Sternberg (08:21):
Well, I grew up in New Orleans, and I've been
living in Baton Rouge since 1968so the area has just been kind
of part of my neighborhoodalmost forever. And when you
live around here, the customwas, if you had out of town
guests, you take them on theRiver Road and see plantation
(08:41):
houses. And that's been true forforever. In 19, I don't know,
8788 I was doing a secondedition on a Louisiana
guidebook, guidebook toLouisiana that was done by
another regional publisher, notElisha press, which has done my
(09:04):
River Road stuff. And I was outat the Timbermill Museum in
Garyville, which was a littlemuseum dedicated to the old
cypress lumber industry thatcame in and decimated the
old-growth cypress here in thelate 19th century anyway. And so
(09:26):
the head of it was just he wastelling me, besides, about his
museum, all the things that wereright around there that, of
course, I'd never heard of. Anda week or so later, I was having
a conversation with somebody whowas supposed to take a guest
from New Orleans up the RiverRoad who said, you know, there's
nothing on the River Roadanymore. And it occurred to me
(09:49):
that there was a huge gapbetween people who knew and
people like us who didn't. Andso I thought, Well, okay, I'm
going to go find a book thatconnects these two people. So I
went and looked, and I found anumber of books about the area,
but they were all highly focusedon one thing or another. So I
(10:12):
thought, well, there isn't abook that does what I want it to
do. I'm a writer. I'll see if Ican write the book. And so I
went to the LSU Press with theidea, and they thought it had
merit. So that's that's how itgot started. And it led to 20
(10:33):
plus years of being out on theriver and meeting people and
learning things. And every timeI went out, I learned something
new, which just made the placericher and richer.
Dean Klinkenberg (10:49):
It's amazing like that when you the more
time, oftentimes, when you takethose opportunities to get to
know a place, and you dig alittle bit, then you dig a
little bit more, it seems likeyou just keep striking gold with
stories that maybe people haveforgotten, or maybe the stories
that not many people remember.
It kind of sounds like that wasyour experience. Like, the more
you spend time there, the morestories you came across that you
(11:10):
are now into three books.
Mary Ann Sternberg (11:15):
Well, yeah, originally, too, the old timers,
quote, unquote, were still outthere, and they were so
delighted to share what theyknew and to refer me to other
people who knew things as well,and unfortunately, they're all
(11:37):
pretty much gone now. So youknow, it was a real gift to be
able to talk to them and be ableto have them as resources of,
you know, for the certainly forthe first edition of 'Along the
River Road.'
Dean Klinkenberg (11:51):
So let's kind of do a quick, sort of romp
through history of this areathen. What do we know about the
people who lived along this partof the Mississippi before
Europeans came? Who lived thereand who were the indigenous
people in the area?
Mary Ann Sternberg (12:04):
Well, there were several different whether
tribes or groups of NativeAmericans. When d'Iberville came
along, d'Iberville and Bienvillecame along in 1699 to do their
exploration, they met up with,obviously, met up with these
people for the first time. Infact, it was the Bayogoula, I
(12:27):
think, who told d'Ibervilleabout Bayou Manchac, which was a
shortcut back to the Gulf wherethey had left their boats. And,
you know, they probably neverwould have known about it. There
is a little bit of residualNative American history still
(12:51):
extant. There are a couple ofIndian mounds. They're pretty
much on private property. Sounless you want to do what I did
and trespass, it's not a goodidea.
Dean Klinkenberg (13:04):
Which we don't recommend.
Mary Ann Sternberg (13:05):
No, we absolutely do not but this was
in search of a story, so, butthen the French, of course, came
along with the Iberville andBienville, and then after that,
you know, any number ofsettlements and layers of
(13:28):
settlement were made, and youhad the British in above Bayou
Manchac, which would be up toBaton Rouge, at least along the
River Road. You, the Spanish,Germans were down just above New
(13:49):
Orleans. They sort of, you know,of course, had slaves from
Africa and from the West,Indies. And then there were free
people of color. And thenAcadians came in. Who were, you
know, from the Nova Scotia area,fleeing persecution. Italians, I
(14:11):
mean, it's a very It has a veryrich mixed history of people.
And so one of the things thatstarted driving me was to
present the area as so much morethan just a plantation parade,
(14:32):
an antebellum plantation parade,that this is a this is a place
to 100 miles on each side of Theriver, but all it has is mid
19th century mansions, 12 or 14of them, and I just had so much
more than that that I just keptdigging and finding and writing.
Dean Klinkenberg (14:53):
Absolutely and a lot of the land that in
between New Orleans and BatonRouge was parceled out, I guess
during the initial period ofFrench colonial rule, was that
when most of those land grantswould have been made?
Mary Ann Sternberg (15:11):
Yeah, a lot of them were made. And, you
know, they grew into being theplantation properties, and they
grew primarily. They started outgrowing indigo and rice, but
once the ability to mill sugarin a commercial way was
(15:39):
discovered in I think it was1795, don't quote me to
but they started planting sugarand then milling sugar, and so a
lot of the land along the riverwas sugar plantations, Which, of
course, were made by the arpentsurvey, which was French, and so
(16:07):
the tracks were more narrow andlong and they went from the
river your river frontage waswhat determined how fancy place
you had really because having abroad river frontage was
admirable. And, you know, andthen it went, it the land went
(16:29):
all the way back into the swamp,so, and it was planted in sugar.
And there was, you know, almosteverywhere. Had they had their
own mill in the beginning.
Dean Klinkenberg (16:44):
If you've ever had a chance to see a map of, I
forget what it was. It mighthave just been like a map of
plantations and their propertiesbetween Baton Rouge and New
Orleans. It shows that.
Mary Ann Sternberg (16:54):
It's the Persac map from 1858.
Dean Klinkenberg (16:57):
Yeah.
Mary Ann Sternberg (16:59):
It's fascinating.
Dean Klinkenberg (17:00):
Yeah. Can you just describe me real quickly
what that looks like?
Mary Ann Sternberg (17:04):
Yeah, I mean, you've got the river
coming down the middle, and thenon both sides, you've got what
looks like spines, and they allhave names on them. And then
they're little places that aremaybe communities or little
places, indication of, I thinkthere were, I think there's some
(17:26):
indication on that map of placesthat steamboats could stop and
get fuel. And, I mean, you know,it's just, it's, it's a terrific
map. And there are very feworiginals left. You can find
reproductions. I have areproduction, which is not worth
much, but I've seen, I've seenthe original, and it's just,
(17:49):
it's just fabulous.
Dean Klinkenberg (17:51):
My understanding from about the at
least part of the reason theproperties were laid out that
way, you know, with that narrowbut deep sort of design is that
it was a way to give everybody,all the landowners, at least,
access to the river. So is thatyour.
Mary Ann Sternberg (18:08):
I mean, that was, that was the point, of
course, because the river wasthe source of transportation,
there weren't really, thereweren't dependable roads,
because, of course, it rainsaround here, so much everything
gets muddy, so you couldn'ttransport things in wagons or
(18:31):
even on horseback much but usingthe river and until the levees
were put up, the distributaries,which are all those small bayous
that come off of the river fromBaton Rouge south, you know, up
where you are, rivers come in astributaries, but down here,
(18:53):
because of the way the hydrologyworks, the intersecting
waterways were distributaries,and that they took water out
rather than bringing water in.
But it was a whole network, andthey were used for
transportation. On the eastside, you know, there were by
bayous that went back to thelakes, where you could access
(19:17):
New Orleans and on the westside, Bayou Plaquemine, Bayou
Lafourche should go back intothe Atchafalaya Basin and wind
your way through all kinds ofplaces you can end up,
eventually in the Gulf.
Dean Klinkenberg (19:37):
It's hard for me to, I think sometimes, get my
head around what that worldwould have been like at that
point in time, the ecology ofthat area. I know that levee
construction started prettyearly, but water transportation
and the benefits and curses ofliving around so much water,
(19:58):
there must have been many ofthose. That. What was it like
living around all thosedifferent you know, waterways
and bodies of water?
Mary Ann Sternberg (20:06):
It just it was part of their it was part of
their neighborhood. I mean, theyneeded the waterways. They not
only used them fortransportation, they used, you
know, they fish in, in thewaterways, and, you know, mean
(20:29):
it was a food source. Again, I,I was in Sicily in April, and
went to see Mount Etna, andwhich had, of course, caused all
sorts of problems in theneighborhood, any number of
times. And said to the guide,you know, why don't these people
move? And they said they justthink of the volcano as part of
(20:53):
their neighborhood. And I thinkthat's the way people thought of
the Mississippi River. They knewit was going to overflow in the
spring, which is why, in thebeginning, they built their
houses up so that the water,would, you know, flow under it.
And they knew they needed thebayou and the intersecting
(21:15):
waterways to transport goods.
And I was, you know, just howthings were.
Dean Klinkenberg (21:23):
It was just their world, right?
Mary Ann Sternberg (21:24):
Just their world. Yeah.
Dean Klinkenberg (21:28):
Levee construction got going pretty
early there too though, right?
So at some point they decidedmaybe there was a way to keep
the water out more morefrequently.
Mary Ann Sternberg (21:36):
Apparently, from the earliest land grants,
there was a stipulation abouthaving to build some kind of a
levee. But there wasn't uniformyou built the levee on your
property and the next guy builtthe levee on his. So it wasn't
really until after the '27 floodthat the uniform levee got
(22:00):
built. And so now, of course,it's a monumental structure that
goes from below New Orleans way up.
Dean Klinkenberg (22:10):
It's, I forget exactly what the levee heights
are down there now, but it'salmost like a three story
building. It seems like Iremember they're monumental
structures.
Mary Ann Sternberg (22:17):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, and frankly, down
where we are. It's the only hillwe have.
Dean Klinkenberg (22:22):
Right? So where did when the spring floods
came? You know, I get houseswere kind of elevated, so more
probably most years, they couldstay dry in their house. Did
people tend to leave duringflood season? Or how did they
deal with those patterns ofthose cycles of high water?
Mary Ann Sternberg (22:41):
Well, when there, I mean, the plant. A lot
of the plantation owners hadtownhouses in New Orleans, and
they may have gone to NewOrleans. You know, no, the
overflowing levee was always, Imean, overflowing, the
(23:02):
overflowing river was always athreat. And I'm, you know, read
some stories, because they builtthe levees higher and higher. It
was just a question of, youknow, how high can your slaves
build your levee? And how areyou going to protect your
(23:25):
property? And then later, youknow, what are we going to do?
And I don't honestly know whatthe people who live there did,
other than stay very alert, andif the river was at its high
point, there were sentinels thatwalked the levees just to see
(23:51):
that there were no breaches. Imean, there's a place there were
crevasses, which, of course, iswhere the river breaks through
the levee, and you know, thenforget it. There's a street in
St John Parish on the east bankof the river, and it's called
(24:14):
Crevasse Street, and if youfollow it back a block or two,
there's just a really nice pondback there. Well, the pond is
the residual effect of the leveehaving broken and the water
being all over this area in themid 19th century. And, you know,
(24:35):
it's, that's, that was, that wasone of my clue, I got a big kick
out of all the places there werethat had names. And if you just
rode along, you wouldn't haveyou would have no idea what it
meant, like Crevasse Street. Imean, you know, but if you know.
(25:00):
Which was the point of what Idid in along the River Road was
to disentangle some of theseclues, expose what they meant.
And that was fun. Anyway, I'mdigressing. Sorry.
Dean Klinkenberg (25:16):
No, that's all right. I love those little
discoveries like that too. Likemost people driving by a little
pond would have probably notstopped to think from it. I
wonder why that pond is there,or have any sense that it's
there because of a levee break.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsome of the people then in this
area. I mean, you kind of gaveus a broad overview of the
different sort of ethnic groupsof folks who live there. Let me
(25:39):
start with this, because thisterm confused me for a long
time, and maybe you can helpclarify this for others too.
What is the German Coast? Tellus what? What that's about.
Mary Ann Sternberg (25:52):
Well, the German Coast was the area not
too far above New Orleans,mainly on the west bank, where
the German settlers werecongregated. And that was like
the late, late 18th century.
It's still referred to as theGerman coast, even though
(26:16):
there's not much German aboutit. And in fact, behind the
River Road, you know, back 5miles, 10 miles or something,
there's a big lake called Lacdes Allemands, which is Lake of
the Germans. And the Germans,apparently were terrific
(26:40):
farmers, and they would taketheir produce to into New
Orleans and sell it at the whathas become the French Market.
Well, I guess it was then theFrench one, and they would, they
would go down river, on theriver, but when they came back,
(27:01):
they would have to come the longway through the lakes and across
through one of the bayousbecause it was way too hard when
you didn't have a motor to goback upstream. But they are
credited, honestly, with, Ithink, being part of what
(27:22):
rescued the early settlers inNew Orleans, so that they.
Dean Klinkenberg (27:32):
It was their farming, their their skill at
farming, that produced enoughfood that kept New Orleans going
Mary Ann Sternberg (27:37):
Apparently, yeah.
during some lean years.
Dean Klinkenberg (27:44):
About what point in time, or what period of
time did those German settlerscome over? When did they begin
settling along that part of theriver? We're talking like mid
1700s or so?
Mary Ann Sternberg (27:57):
Okay, German settlers began arriving in 1720.
Dean Klinkenberg (28:05):
Early.
Mary Ann Sternberg (28:06):
Let's see, by 1746 the German coast is the
second largest settlement in thecolony after New Orleans.
Dean Klinkenberg (28:15):
Are there place names along that part of
the river that reflect thatGerman heritage in any way or, I
mean, like, it's kind of funny,the lake you mentioned, it's a
German lake, but it's in French.
Mary Ann Sternberg (28:26):
Well, yeah, because everything, I mean,
despite the fact that theSpanish had the colony for a
very long time, the Frenchinfluence is much stronger. So
in a lot of instances, I I mean,there's nothing much left of the
German. I mean, I rememberreading on the German names that
(28:50):
got francophied. Oh yeah, whichwas kind of amazing. And it was,
you know, just sort of one morething.
Dean Klinkenberg (29:04):
Right. I hadn't really thought about
that, but I guess, like probablymany of those early German
settlers, over time, their lastnames began to take on more of a
French sound to fit in withtheir neighbors. I think you
also wrote a little bit aboutthe 1811 slave revolt. Yes, I
don't know a lot of that. Lot ofpeople are outside of that part
(29:25):
of Louisiana are familiar withthe story. Can you kind of tell
us a little bit about that?
Mary Ann Sternberg (29:30):
Well, a lot of people in Louisiana weren't
very familiar either, until 2011when they did a kind of shown a
historic spotlight, and all of asudden it became much better
known than it had been before.
The slaves in the east bank, inSt John and St Charles parishes,
(29:51):
which, as you know, is the sameas counties we just, they
divided things up by theCatholic Church in the
beginning, and so it's neverchanged in terms of the name of
that. They began an uprising,and they marched down the River
(30:13):
Road, attacking plantations. Andunfortunate, or fortunately or
unfortunately, the militia inNew Orleans rallied and came and
defeated them all. And there wasa trial. One of the trials was a
Destrehan Plantation. And ofcourse, anybody that wasn't any
(30:37):
of the slaves who weren't killedwere doomed, and they cut off
the heads and put them on pikesand put them right along the
River Road, so that it would beas a warning to not have that
happen again. And as a matter offact, the Destrehan Plantation
(31:01):
itself has a really niceexhibit, talking of showing this
and explaining it, so people, Ithink, don't know they're going
to encounter that when they goto tour Destrehan Plantation,
but it was the largest slaverevolt, I think, in the country,
(31:23):
ever. Bigger than the John Brown.
Dean Klinkenberg (31:29):
Right.
Hundreds, hundreds of slaves,enslaved people, were involved
in that. And I had a chance tovisit that exhibit at Destrehan
a couple of years ago. And Iagree. I hope that was really
fantastic, and I thought it toldthe story pretty well.
Mary Ann Sternberg (31:44):
And, you know, I it shows how the
plantations along the river haveadjusted their focus for a long
time, and the complaints wereabsolutely valid. The
plantations told the story ofthe people who lived in the big
houses, and it somehow oranother, managed to skip right
(32:07):
over the myriads of people whowere doing the work. And in the
last, I'd say, I don't know, 15years, certainly, almost all of
the plantation houses haveincorporated the stories of both
(32:27):
their slaves and then theirtenant farmers as part of their
you know, as part of theirhistory. And so it's much more
equitable and much more real.
Dean Klinkenberg (32:40):
And so if you were a person interested in the
history of African Americansalong the River Road, then are
there a couple of places inparticular you would recommend
that people should visit?
Mary Ann Sternberg (32:52):
Well, of course, the one place that's
gotten a huge amount ofpublicity is the Whitney
Plantation, which wastransformed into a quote, Museum
of Slavery. And, you know,that's a place to start. But any
(33:13):
of them, any of the otherplantations, have pieces of
this, you know, specificallyfocused on their history. The
River Road African AmericanMuseum in Donaldsonville does a
(33:33):
good job of telling the story ofslaves and African Americans and
Blacks who have been in thearea, and they've got some
outbuildings that reflectculture, cultural artifacts.
(33:58):
Yeah, they do a good job.
Evergreen Plantation has theonly at least along the river,
and there are not many others inthe South really, it's got the
only collection of extantbuildings from the 1850. So
they've got, like 20 of the 22original slave cabins that are
(34:23):
in the back, and they did a hugejob of, kind of inventorying the
population and collectinghistoric information and stories
and finding families anddescendants and things. But they
(34:46):
are not currently open to thepublic. So I you know they may
be occasionally open. But theyaren't open to the public
anymore, so you can't accessthat.
Dean Klinkenberg (35:06):
So I remember when we toured Oak Alley, you
know, there's a collection ofslave cabins, kind of at the
back of the property, behind themansion. My, from what I recall
from this, the tour of the houseitself, the when we went around
there, they didn't have much tosay at all about the enslaved
(35:28):
people on the plantation, youkind of, but they had this
separate area you could go andtour on your own. Kind of felt
like they had split that partoff from the main history and
maybe of just guide specific.
But is that kind of the way manyplantations do it now?
Mary Ann Sternberg (35:44):
No, how long? I mean, how long ago did
you do that? Do you remember?
Dean Klinkenberg (35:47):
It was? Think it was just two years ago.
Mary Ann Sternberg (35:49):
Oh, well, then maybe they've changed it,
because for a while it was, Imean, it was really kind of
integrated into the tour. Andlike. And then Laura Plantation
is another one that does a goodjob with that. Yeah, I mean in
(36:18):
Oak Alley's slave cabins, Ithink are not original.
Dean Klinkenberg (36:26):
Right. I think that's right.
Mary Ann Sternberg (36:27):
I think that, you know, they brought
them in, but, I mean, that'sgood, you know.
Dean Klinkenberg (36:34):
Right.
Mary Ann Sternberg (36:35):
Making the effort and Oak Alley is
certainly an impressive place.
Dean Klinkenberg (36:42):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting
myself. Just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guide books for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also write
the Frank Dodge mystery seriesthat is set in places along the
Mississippi. My newest book TheWild Mississippi, goes deep into
(37:07):
the world of Old Man River.
Learn about the varied andcomplex ecosystem supported by
the Mississippi, the plant andanimal life that depends on
them, and where you can go toexperience it all. Find any of
these wherever books are sold.
Well, let's go through a coupleof the other groups of people
who came in there. If my historyis right. So there was during
(37:30):
Spanish rule, they encouragedmigration from the Canary
Islands into Louisiana. Andthere are communities of
Isleños in different parts ofLouisiana. I think there might
have been an Isleño communitykind of a near or along the
River Road. Am I rememberingthat?
Mary Ann Sternberg (37:49):
Yeah, It was right off the River Road along
Bayou Lafourche? It wasn't big,and there isn't much left of it.
I mean, it's an identifiableplace. There's an Isleño
Museum, I assume it's stillthere, in a community south of
(38:09):
New Orleans, because I haven'tbeen there in 30 years probably.
It could have been blown away bya hurricane by now, but it was a
fast it was fascinating theculture of the people from the
Canary Islands, and being there.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:23):
Right. A lot of them were fishermen, really
they. A lot of them made theirliving from from the sea. So I
was sort of curious if I wasremembering that right. So there
is an old community there.
Probably not much left forvisitors to experience of
Isleño culture in that place.
Mary Ann Sternberg (38:42):
Not, not, not along the River Road. I
mean, right, there may be somehistorical markers.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:51):
And then Cajun community, the Acadians. Cajun
country is a little furtherwest, the heart of it is, right?
But there is Cajun influence inplaces along the River Road too,
if I recall.
Mary Ann Sternberg (39:02):
Right. And as you asked about the German
Coast, there are areas along theRiver Road called the Acadian
Coast, and the descendants aredefinitely still there. There
are people who live along theriver who have river Cajun
(39:27):
accents, which is different thanthe Cajun accents you get over
by Lafayette and out near there.
There was a terrific littlemuseum in Lutcher, which is in
St James Parish, that was puttogether by there again, kind of
(39:48):
the older folks who cared aboutwhat their old culture had been,
was the. The St James ParishHistorical Society Museum. And
they never had a curator, andthey never had a professional
anybody come, and they justcollected artifacts. And the
(40:09):
people who knew what everythingwas, because they had grown up
with it, were the ones who werein charge and who would tell you
about it. And it was, it wasstrictly river Cajun culture,
the Acadian culture of thatarea. Unfortunately, they were
on a piece of property that hadbeen given them by the parish.
(40:32):
The parish needed it back, orthe city needed back to expand
the water treatment plant andthe papers and things were taken
to Nicholls State UniversityArchives. But all of the other
artifacts, I don't know wherethey went, and I was just
(40:55):
absolutely sick that the parishhadn't protected this place
because it was one of theterrific little museums out
along the river road that wereof the culture, you know, of the
various places.
Dean Klinkenberg (41:15):
Wow. That is sad. I think you wrote about
that in the book, but it soundedhopeful like they had, we're
going to build them a new place.
Mary Ann Sternberg (41:24):
At that point it was hopeful. After the
book was published,unfortunately, and they just,
they quit worrying about it. Andof course, the people who were
still around to be involved wereupset about it. I was upset
about it. I'm actually was on acommittee where that we were
trying to figure out what to dowith the artifacts. And the
(41:45):
parish just never kicked in sobuildings, and, you know, they
had an old cistern. They had agreat big log, I mean, huge
cypress log from the loggingindustry and the cistern. I
mean, I remember once when I wasthere, this woman was giving a
(42:07):
tour to a group of schoolchildren, and she was telling
him that when she grew up, thiswas how her family got water.
And, you know, it rained intothe cistern, and then they went
out and pull the spigot, andthat's where they got their
running water. And, well, notrunning water. Of course, these
kids looked at her like, Lady,are you crazy? Yeah, things like
(42:30):
that.
Dean Klinkenberg (42:33):
Well, that's a shame I was gonna say, like, I
need to put that on my list tovisit the next time.
Mary Ann Sternberg (42:37):
I wish you could.
Dean Klinkenberg (42:42):
You know, it's hard for especially for some of
the smaller communities, it'shard to hang on to all the
memories or relics from thethose periods of time. I
remember you wrote aninteresting story trying to
track or trying to look fortraces of an old Jewish
synagogue in a building inDonaldsonville. Can you tell us
about that?
Mary Ann Sternberg (43:01):
Yeah, it is documented that the Ace Hardware
store was the synagogue inDonaldsonville. Donaldsonville
had a representative populationof Jewish people, and so they
built the synagogue in 1870s andit was well attended until the
(43:28):
1940s when there really were nomore Jewish citizens in town to
maintain it, and it was soldoff. But it's exactly the same
building. It's just it has beensomewhat renovated so that it
was, you know, was a store, andI talked to the owner. I mean, I
(43:56):
had done some research so I knewwhat the history was and but I
talked to the owner, and helived above the store, and he
took me up to his livingquarters. And that's the ceiling
of the old synagogue was aboveme. I mean, it was this, you
(44:19):
know, kind of arched or peakedold wood. And he had had taken
up the floors from downstairs touse as his floors. So he had the
old pine floors from the store.
And I had talked to a woman who,elderly woman, who had gone
there, I guess, before it wasshuttered. So she'd gone there
(44:44):
in the maybe late '20s, early'30s. That was her synagogue,
and she recalled for me what itlooked like, and I got an artist
to take her words and draw whatit sounded like. And it showed
it to her, and she said, "That'sexactly it." So I gave it to Ace
(45:05):
Hardware, along with a littlehistory of the synagogue, and
they have a double sided poster,and it's up in their window.
When the last time I was down inDonaldsonville, it was still up
in their window. explaining whatit was and, you know, and
they're there architecturalelements that, if you know where
(45:32):
to look, are still there.
Dean Klinkenberg (45:37):
You won't see any Hebrew lettering anywhere at
this point, I imagine, though.
Mary Ann Sternberg (45:40):
No, and I don't know that there was much
there at that point, either,other than anyway, but that was
fun. And then the the cemetery,cemetery is still there. So,
yeah, the presence is noted.
Dean Klinkenberg (46:02):
Right. I had, I did wander through the Jewish
cemetery a few years ago when Iwas down there, and it, yeah,
it's, it's a good reminder ofthe the people who've lived in
that area. I've kind of, yeah, Idon't know if there are many
others like me, but I likewandering through cemeteries
from time to time, even as atourist, to get a sense of
(46:22):
looking at the names and thestory, and sometimes there are
short stories, even on ontombstones, it's a good way to
get a sense of the people who'velived in that area. Are there
other cemeteries, kind of, alongthe River Road that you think
would be an interestingexperience for visitors?
Mary Ann Sternberg (46:38):
For people who who like meandering
cemeteries. This, St CharlesBorromeo church in I guess
Destrehan has a very oldcemetery. Lots of old, old
tombstones. St John in Edgardhas a really old cemetery. The
(47:10):
big Catholic Ascension CatholicChurch in Donaldsonville has
some terrific old tombs.
Freddie, I mean, any of thechurches that have any age on
them have good have, you know,good cemeteries. The problem, of
course, is you can wanderthrough and not know who any of
(47:32):
the people are. So, you know theold River Road names, you know,
Haydel, Becnel, whatever. Andyou can see that. And if you
have a sense of who they were,you know, here lie they.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:51):
Right, you can kind of judge their material
success, at least, by the sizeof their monuments.
Mary Ann Sternberg (47:56):
Sometimes, yes.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:57):
We've kind of skipped past this part of it,
but you know, at some point inthe fairly recent past, this
area really transformed fromprimarily agricultural to heavy
industry. Can you talk a littlebit about that transition, and
what some of the majorindustries are that are along
(48:18):
the stretch of the River Roadnow. The types of industries.
Petrochemical, of course, you know, you didn't say it so I will, most recently, the area has been referred to as Cancer Alley. And it's because, of course, the toxicity of a lot of the products that are coming out of these various plants, and the fact that sometimes they're not as well regulated or monitored, perhaps, and most of the people who live around them or are certainly poor, and many of them are black. So until recently, there wasn't what they would are calling now environmental justice. That said, you cannot argue that industry is new to the River Road, because in the time of sugar, there was a mill at the back of almost all the plantations. And that was big industry of the 19th century. You know, sugar mills were, that was what that's how you transformed the product in the field to something that people could use. And the petrochemical industry along the river probably started when Standard Oil came to Baton Rouge in 1909. They put they built a refinery in Baton Rouge in 1909 on the river. And then, I can't remember who was the next refinery could have been Shell down in Norco, what is now Norco. But one of the reasons of course, well, the main reason was the river, because you get barges coming down the river from north and you get ocean going vessels coming up the river from the Gulf, and they can go as far as Baton Rouge. So industry has access to markets all over the country and worldwide, and because the land was plantations agricultural. Louisiana has this law about heirs having to divide the land equally anyway, families often sold off tracks of land, rather than getting into a squabble about who didn't want it and who wanted to buy who out. And it wasn't going to work. And industry came in and they would buy them out for a nice price, and people would get rid of the land, and then the industry would use the land to build aplant.
(51:43):
Probably was far easier for those families
just to sell what they owned andsplit the profits or the dollar
amount from that, rather thantrying to figure out who was
paying who for that acre or halfacre. Yeah, I didn't think about
that. That makes a lot of sense.
Mary Ann Sternberg (51:57):
Yeah. So you know, I know that industry and,
I mean, there are other thingsbesides petroleum and chemical.
You know, it being the river,Imean, there's all kinds of
maritime businesses, andthey're, I get places where
(52:19):
there's aluminum ore. And Imean, actually, you know, coming
along on the inside of the riveris fascinating to see everything
from the inside, as opposed fromthe outside of the levee. And,
(52:42):
you know, so there's a lot ofindustrial hardware into the
river in terms of, I don't know,what are those chutes and things
to load, load and unload, andthe petrochemical industry is
(53:04):
certainly a big part ofLouisiana's economy. But in
recent years, there have beengroups, kind of grassroot
groups, that have grown up inthese various areas to try and
(53:24):
protect the people fromoverreach by the industries in
terms of not monitoring what washappening, what is happening.
Dean Klinkenberg (53:45):
That's part of the dilemma I found when driving
through this area. So let's kindof transition to offering some
tips for people who aretraveling through here. There
are a lot of places where youhave the levee you know between
you and the river. You may notsee the river unless you go out
of your way to get on top of thelevee somehow, or when you're in
(54:08):
a town and you're at a park nextto the river, you've got all the
private property from industry.
I kind of understand why peoplefocus on plantations, because
it's an easy thing to do andvisit, an obvious thing to do
when you're driving through thisarea. So what can visitors do to
sort of get out of that mindsetwhere the only thing to see and
do are plantations. What elsecan people be looking for and
(54:30):
experience?
Mary Ann Sternberg (54:33):
Well, I will not argue with you. Visually
lots of places seem derelict andthere is nothing there. But that
was the reason I did along theriver road the way I did it,
which was a similar format tothe old WPA guides, where you
(54:57):
set your odometer and you alongby miles because there are still
historic old buildings. They maylook derelict, but they were a
slave cabin, or, you know, at aspecific plantation, or they
were an old plantation store, orsomething like that. Or, for
(55:19):
instance, Crevasse Street, thereare all kinds of things, and so
'Along the River Road' waswritten to explain what things
are as you're driving along, orwhat things were. That makes
(55:41):
make it a lot more interesting.
That said, I cannot defend thefact that there are expanses of
nothing. I mean, well, somethingbut nothing of historic or
cultural interest. You know, somean, you can tuck in and out of
the river road, because incertain areas, I mean, in St
(56:04):
James Parish, for instance, it'spretty dense with interesting
sites. In St Charles Parish, forinstance, particularly on the
west bank, it's all pretty muchpetrochemical or other industry.
And so if you only had a day tolook at anything, you wouldn't,
you wouldn't target there.
(56:28):
Donaldsonville, I think they'redoing a better job now of
explaining the town to visitors.
But I mean, Donaldsonville is afabulous old river town. And,
you know, I discovered so manythings in Donaldsonville. And,
you know, I mean, people wholived around here said, "Really,
(56:49):
in Donaldsonville?" And, yeah,really, you know, Plaquemines is
another river town. Yeah, itjust, you're right on the face
of it, you can ride and you justsee an open field, or you see
falling down houses, and youthink, why does she think I want
(57:10):
to be out here? And she thinksyou want to be out there because
they're hidden stories, and I'mdigging them up for you so you
don't have to and trying to tellyou that this is really a
fascinating place, and it's not,it may look it's not Colonial
Williamsburg,. It's a realplace, and it's changed. And you
(57:34):
can go this year and something'sgone that was there last year.
Dean Klinkenberg (57:44):
Like the Cajun Museum. Yeah, I will say I
really enjoyed having your bookwith me when I was driving
through that area along theRiver Road, I felt like you
helped make the invisiblevisible for me as I was
traveling through.
Mary Ann Sternberg (58:01):
That's what I was trying to do. I was trying
very hard to get people to seehow much more was out there than
was obvious, because most of itisn't obvious. And I was hoping
that by making people see howmuch history and culture was
(58:24):
still out there that theywouldn't regard it as just
Cancer Alley or PlantationParade. And I'm not sure that I
was highly successful, but Ispent over 20 years attempting
to do this, and I enjoyed everyminute of it.
Dean Klinkenberg (58:41):
Well, good.
And I completely agree with youon Donaldsonville, too. I
thought that was a cute littletown. There was a lot more there
to see than I expected, andPlaquemines, I felt the same
way. I wish I'd had more time topoke around there. So there are
definitely places to see and dothings. I think what makes it a
little challenging is that maybeyou need that sort of curation
or that help to to know what todo if you're just driving
(59:04):
through on your own without anyreference or anything to help
you out. I think you're going tomiss a lot, and I think that's
where your book really comes inhandy to bring some of those
stories out, but also to suggestplaces to visit that are still
open, that you could spend sometime at. I'm mindful of the
time, and I do want to touch ona couple more things, You
mentioned in one of your books,the batture lands. Can tell us a
(59:26):
little bit what the batture is,and maybe give us an idea of a
place or two that would be kindof fun for visitors to pop over
and get a look at the batture?
Mary Ann Sternberg (59:39):
All right, well, in the upper river, I
guess, since there's no levee,there's no real batture. Batture
is the land that's between thetoe of the levee and wherever
the water is. So in high water,there's no batture. Well, it's
there, but it's covered. And inlow order, the batture offers
(01:00:05):
many different things. I mean,in some places, of course,
marine services are on thebatture. They're on the inside
of the levee. One of the andit's hard to go to a batture
because so much of the levee isprivately owned. The trying to
(01:00:32):
think, I mean, there are fewplaces where you can climb up
the levee and go down on thebatture out by LSU, where
there's a walking and bikingtrail on the top of the levee,
and really down by New Orleans,although I think St Charles
(01:00:52):
Parish is the only one that'sincluded in my book. I didn't,
as you probably noticed, I didnot go into the New Orleans area
at all, in terms of this, interms of the books, because
there's been so many wonderfulbooks written about New Orleans
that there was sort of no pointwhere there was much more point
(01:01:14):
trying to bring attention tothis area. But any place there
is a trail on top of the leveethat's public, you can go wander
off and, in Baton Rouge, you cango down and there's a eagle's
(01:01:37):
nest in a tree. The eagle comeback every year, and the tree is
growing, you know, on thebatture. In some places, the
batture look very much likethey're wild, overgrown all
kinds of different trees andshrubs. And you could kind of
(01:02:00):
wander through there, thinkingyou're really out on a hike in
the country somewhere. And then,of course, other parts of the
batture are, as I said, areowned by plants or maritime
services. And so it's full ofmachinery, equipment,
structures.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:02:21):
If my memory is right and my geography is
right, I think there was areally nice area of batture in
front of Destrehan Plantation.
There's a bike trail, I think,that passes on the other side of
the road from the plantation,and then on the other side of
that bike trail there's a prettybroad batture area. I don't know
how accessible all that is towalk around, but if nothing
(01:02:42):
else, but I'd like the way youdescribed it. And it's basically
these little peaks into the oldworld of the Mississippi. These
are these sort of natural areasthat that are left pretty much
on their own. In some places,they're pretty narrow.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:02:59):
Yeah, Evergreen had a swamp tour in
their batture some years back.
They don't do it anymore, buttheir batture was quite wide,
and it had developed as a swamp.
And, you know, there werealligators the whole bit.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:03:22):
Nice, well, I would be negligent if I didn't
at least ask about food. Youknow, it's a part of the country
famous for good food. NewOrleans gets plenty of coverage
for its food. If you're drivingalong the River Road like what I
don't want to recommend specificrestaurants. Restaurants come
(01:03:42):
and go. I'm not interested inthat, but just in terms of types
of food, what can people expectto see if they just stop into
local establishments in thispart of the river?
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:03:49):
Fried seafood, you know. Well, I will
say I was out cruising aroundone day, and I pulled into a gas
station in where was I? NearVacherie, and I don't know there
was the gas station was sellingoyster poor boys. You know,
fried oyster poor boys. So Ibought a half of one. It was one
(01:04:11):
of the best oyster poor boys Iever had. So I would say, don't
discount anywhere. May turn outto be terrible, but it could
also turn out to be surprisinglygood. And, you know, there's
some restaurants. There's arestaurant in Lutcher that's in
an old building by the railroad.
The building's over 100 yearsold. And, you know, does plate
(01:04:34):
lunches and things, and it'svery atmospheric. It's fun. I
won't say the name of it,because you don't want to
advertise. You know Houmas Househas has restaurants. Oak Alley.
I mean, some of the plantationshave restaurants. But the truth
of the matter is, if you justkind of wending your way along,
(01:04:56):
when you stop for an attraction,ask the people who live around
there, "Where should I go getsomething to eat? Where should I
go get lunch?" And they'll tellyou, because, you know.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:05:14):
People have their favorites, and the people
who live there know best.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:05:19):
Well and there are, there are places that
are, that are of the place, asopposed to being a, you know, a
chain restaurant on the AirlineHighway or something,
Dean Klinkenberg (01:05:31):
Right. And even, like the restaurants at
the plantations, tend to catertowards certain tastes, or they
may be very good, but it'sprobably going to be a different
experience then you pop into aplace that's been there for 50
years and serves primarily alocal crowd. So I'm completely
with you on the gas station foodtoo. I remember when I was
especially when we were south inNew Orleans and heading down
(01:05:53):
toward Venice in that area, thepo' boys we had at the gas
stations were some of the bestpo' boys I had the whole trip.
So don't discount that.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:06:01):
Right.
Exactly.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:03):
Well, Mary Ann, this has been a delight to
talk to you. Fantastic to haveyou share your passion for this
part of the river and theknowledge about the history and
people of the area. If peopleare interested in keeping up
with your work or finding outmore about you, how would they
best do that?
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:06:22):
I have a website, which is
maryannsternberg.com and if theywant the books, they're
available on Amazon and alsothrough the LSU Press, Barnes
and Noble too. I think actuallyonline.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:42):
Do you have any social media accounts, like
are you posting to Instagram oranything like that?
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:06:48):
I gave that up?
Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:50):
Yeah, probably wise.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:06:51):
I just, you know, so the answer to that is
no.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:55):
All right.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime. I appreciate it, and
perhaps someday our paths willcross down along the River Road
somewhere.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:07:04):
I do hope so. Thank you.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:07:06):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes. I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon to help keep theprogram going, just go to
patreon.com/dean.klinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the
(01:07:28):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guidebooks forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast is written and producedby me Dean Klinkenberg. Original
Music by Noah Fence. See younext time.
That's what I was trying to do. I was trying
very hard to get people to seehow much more was out there than
was obvious, because most of itisn't obvious, and I was hoping
that by making people see howmuch history and culture was
(00:22):
still out there that theywouldn't regard it as just
Cancer Alley or PlantationParade. And I'm not sure that I
was highly successful, but Ispent over 20 years attempting
to do this, and I enjoyed everyminute of it.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:00):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and
(01:20):
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
information on the Mississippiat
MississippiValleyTraveler.com.
Let's get going.
Welcome to Episode 70 of theMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. Well, this will be thefinal episode of 2025. I'm
(01:41):
taking a break for the rest ofthe year, and we'll see what
next year has to offer. Ifyou're like me, you have
probably driven some of theRiver Road between Baton Rouge
and New Orleans, and maybe youeven were one of those folks who
sort of hurried to get down toNew Orleans and get through that
(02:02):
industrial corridor as quicklyas possible. Maybe you stopped
at a plantation for a quicktour, and that's probably about
all you really thought aboutthat area. Well, Mary Ann
Sternberg has spent 20 plusyears challenging the idea that
the River Road between BatonRouge and New Orleans is nothing
more than rows of noxiouschemical plants interspersed
(02:23):
with those 19th centuryplantation houses. So in this
episode, we dig deep into thepast and present of that
stretch. Mary Ann begins bygiving us a general orientation
to the geography of the RiverRoad. What part of the
Mississippi are we talkingabout. And describes the
region's indigenous inhabitants.
We then get into talking aboutsome of the early Europeans who
(02:46):
settled along the river there,including an influx of Germans
in the early 1700s. We talkabout the role of the
Mississippi River in their dailylives, how they adapted to life
along the river, how it wascentral to their movements from
place to place, and a little bitabout what agricultural products
were key in the earlydevelopment of that corridor. We
(03:09):
talked about the slave revolt of1811 which far too few people
know anything about, and offersome ideas on where people can
learn a little bit more aboutthat tragic event, as well as
which plantations really bestincorporate the history of
enslaved people into the storiesthey tell about that particular
plantation. We touch a littlebit on some other groups who've
(03:34):
also lived in this corridor,including some Canary Islanders
and Cajuns who settled in theregion, as well as a Jewish
community in Donaldsonville,where Mary Ann has a good story,
where she was tracing thehistory of the synagogue in that
particular town. We talk alittle bit about the transition
from agriculture to heavyindustry, and then we finish
(03:56):
with a few tips about gettingthe most from a visit along the
River Road. How to get away fromjust looking at the plantation
houses only or being in a hurryto get past the chemical plants.
It's a fun conversation. She hasa lot to offer, and I hope
you'll stick around and listento the whole thing.
(04:18):
Thanks to all of you whocontinue to show me some love
through patreon. For as littleas $1 a month, you can join that
community, make me smile and getearly access to each of these
episodes. Not a patreon kind ofperson. Well, you can show me
(04:39):
some love by buying me a coffee,go to
MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcastand at that site, you can learn
how to buy me a coffee and feedmy caffeine habit. At that same
location,MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast
you'll find all 69 previousepisodes. Notes, as well as the
(05:01):
show notes for each of thoseepisodes and for this one as
well. So take some time, go backand listen to each of those
episodes, look at the picturesand follow the links to find out
more about the topics in each ofthose episodes. And now on with
the interview.
(05:29):
Mary Ann Sternberg has been afreelance writer and nonfiction
author for 50 years. Herinterests include Louisiana
history and culture, naturalhistory, the arts, food ways and
travel as well as personalessays. She confesses to having
been lucky to write aboutsubjects that really interested
her, from a week long boat tripalong the Peruvian Amazon to
(05:51):
attending a rock concert withtwo of her children about 35
years ago, to a NewYorker.comfeature about a Baton Rouge
company that made dog treatsfrom nutria meat and much more.
She's the author of 'Along theRiver Road,' 'River Road
Rambler' and 'River Road RamblerReturns,' as well as 'Winding
Through Time' about BayouManchac, the historic Bayou that
(06:12):
was a distributary to theMississippi River and once
served as the internationalboundary between colonial Spain
and England in the 18th century.
Mary Ann, welcome to thepodcast.
Mary Ann Sternberg (06:22):
Thanks, Dean.
Dean Klinkenberg (06:23):
Why don't we start with a little orientation
to the geography here, there maybe some confusion when we talk
about the River Road versus theGreat River Road. So tell us
where we are on the Mississippiwhen you think of the River
Road, where are we?
Mary Ann Sternber (06:39):
Colloquially, down here in South Louisiana,
the River Road runs between NewOrleans and Baton Rouge. It's on
both sides of the river. Andthat's, of course, as opposed to
the Great River Road that startsall the way up, I guess,
Minneapolis or so, and comesdown and has a different profile
(07:03):
altogether. Well, I'd say thatthey overlap down here a little.
Dean Klinkenberg (07:09):
Right. So I guess the River Road in
Louisiana is also runsconcurrently with the Great
River Road through that area,but the Great River Road runs
well beyond that stretch.
Mary Ann Sternberg (07:21):
The Great River Road actually isn't
totally congruent here. I'mthinking it veers off in a few
places. And our River Road, youknow, I mean, should say River
Roads, because it's a road oneach side of the river, and it
(07:42):
traces generally the base of thelevee. And it doesn't really
veer from the levee, and doesn'tveer from the levee almost
anywhere except at Bonnet Carre,which is the spillway.
Dean Klinkenberg (07:58):
So it's a continuous pavement, but it's
also not the same highway numberfor that entire length from
Baton Rouge, New Orleans,either, right?
Mary Ann Sternberg (08:06):
Nope, no, yes. I didn't know what that
reflected about the LouisianaHighway Department, and I didn't
think I wanted to find out.
Dean Klinkenberg (08:18):
So how did you get interested in this this
area?
Mary Ann Sternberg (08:21):
Well, I grew up in New Orleans, and I've been
living in Baton Rouge since 1968so the area has just been kind
of part of my neighborhoodalmost forever. And when you
live around here, the customwas, if you had out of town
guests, you take them on theRiver Road and see plantation
(08:41):
houses. And that's been true forforever. In 19, I don't know,
8788 I was doing a secondedition on a Louisiana
guidebook, guidebook toLouisiana that was done by
another regional publisher, notElisha press, which has done my
(09:04):
River Road stuff. And I was outat the Timbermill Museum in
Garyville, which was a littlemuseum dedicated to the old
cypress lumber industry thatcame in and decimated the
old-growth cypress here in thelate 19th century anyway. And so
(09:26):
the head of it was just he wastelling me, besides, about his
museum, all the things that wereright around there that, of
course, I'd never heard of. Anda week or so later, I was having
a conversation with somebody whowas supposed to take a guest
from New Orleans up the RiverRoad who said, you know, there's
nothing on the River Roadanymore. And it occurred to me
(09:49):
that there was a huge gapbetween people who knew and
people like us who didn't. Andso I thought, Well, okay, I'm
going to go find a book thatconnects these two people. So I
went and looked, and I found anumber of books about the area,
but they were all highly focusedon one thing or another. So I
(10:12):
thought, well, there isn't abook that does what I want it to
do. I'm a writer. I'll see if Ican write the book. And so I
went to the LSU Press with theidea, and they thought it had
merit. So that's that's how itgot started. And it led to 20
(10:33):
plus years of being out on theriver and meeting people and
learning things. And every timeI went out, I learned something
new, which just made the placericher and richer.
Dean Klinkenberg (10:49):
It's amazing like that when you the more
time, oftentimes, when you takethose opportunities to get to
know a place, and you dig alittle bit, then you dig a
little bit more, it seems likeyou just keep striking gold with
stories that maybe people haveforgotten, or maybe the stories
that not many people remember.
It kind of sounds like that wasyour experience. Like, the more
you spend time there, the morestories you came across that you
(11:10):
are now into three books.
Mary Ann Sternberg (11:15):
Well, yeah, originally, too, the old timers,
quote, unquote, were still outthere, and they were so
delighted to share what theyknew and to refer me to other
people who knew things as well,and unfortunately, they're all
(11:37):
pretty much gone now. So youknow, it was a real gift to be
able to talk to them and be ableto have them as resources of,
you know, for the certainly forthe first edition of 'Along the
River Road.'
Dean Klinkenberg (11:51):
So let's kind of do a quick, sort of romp
through history of this areathen. What do we know about the
people who lived along this partof the Mississippi before
Europeans came? Who lived thereand who were the indigenous
people in the area?
Mary Ann Sternberg (12:04):
Well, there were several different whether
tribes or groups of NativeAmericans. When d'Iberville came
along, d'Iberville and Bienvillecame along in 1699 to do their
exploration, they met up with,obviously, met up with these
people for the first time. Infact, it was the Bayogoula, I
(12:27):
think, who told d'Ibervilleabout Bayou Manchac, which was a
shortcut back to the Gulf wherethey had left their boats. And,
you know, they probably neverwould have known about it. There
is a little bit of residualNative American history still
(12:51):
extant. There are a couple ofIndian mounds. They're pretty
much on private property. Sounless you want to do what I did
and trespass, it's not a goodidea.
Dean Klinkenberg (13:04):
Which we don't recommend.
Mary Ann Sternberg (13:05):
No, we absolutely do not but this was
in search of a story, so, butthen the French, of course, came
along with the Iberville andBienville, and then after that,
you know, any number ofsettlements and layers of
(13:28):
settlement were made, and youhad the British in above Bayou
Manchac, which would be up toBaton Rouge, at least along the
River Road. You, the Spanish,Germans were down just above New
(13:49):
Orleans. They sort of, you know,of course, had slaves from
Africa and from the West,Indies. And then there were free
people of color. And thenAcadians came in. Who were, you
know, from the Nova Scotia area,fleeing persecution. Italians, I
(14:11):
mean, it's a very It has a veryrich mixed history of people.
And so one of the things thatstarted driving me was to
present the area as so much morethan just a plantation parade,
(14:32):
an antebellum plantation parade,that this is a this is a place
to 100 miles on each side of Theriver, but all it has is mid
19th century mansions, 12 or 14of them, and I just had so much
more than that that I just keptdigging and finding and writing.
Dean Klinkenberg (14:53):
Absolutely and a lot of the land that in
between New Orleans and BatonRouge was parceled out, I guess
during the initial period ofFrench colonial rule, was that
when most of those land grantswould have been made?
Mary Ann Sternberg (15:11):
Yeah, a lot of them were made. And, you
know, they grew into being theplantation properties, and they
grew primarily. They started outgrowing indigo and rice, but
once the ability to mill sugarin a commercial way was
(15:39):
discovered in I think it was1795, don't quote me to
but they started planting sugarand then milling sugar, and so a
lot of the land along the riverwas sugar plantations, Which, of
course, were made by the arpentsurvey, which was French, and so
(16:07):
the tracks were more narrow andlong and they went from the
river your river frontage waswhat determined how fancy place
you had really because having abroad river frontage was
admirable. And, you know, andthen it went, it the land went
(16:29):
all the way back into the swamp,so, and it was planted in sugar.
And there was, you know, almosteverywhere. Had they had their
own mill in the beginning.
Dean Klinkenberg (16:44):
If you've ever had a chance to see a map of, I
forget what it was. It mighthave just been like a map of
plantations and their propertiesbetween Baton Rouge and New
Orleans. It shows that.
Mary Ann Sternberg (16:54):
It's the Persac map from 1858.
Dean Klinkenberg (16:57):
Yeah.
Mary Ann Sternberg (16:59):
It's fascinating.
Dean Klinkenberg (17:00):
Yeah. Can you just describe me real quickly
what that looks like?
Mary Ann Sternberg (17:04):
Yeah, I mean, you've got the river
coming down the middle, and thenon both sides, you've got what
looks like spines, and they allhave names on them. And then
they're little places that aremaybe communities or little
places, indication of, I thinkthere were, I think there's some
(17:26):
indication on that map of placesthat steamboats could stop and
get fuel. And, I mean, you know,it's just, it's, it's a terrific
map. And there are very feworiginals left. You can find
reproductions. I have areproduction, which is not worth
much, but I've seen, I've seenthe original, and it's just,
(17:49):
it's just fabulous.
Dean Klinkenberg (17:51):
My understanding from about the at
least part of the reason theproperties were laid out that
way, you know, with that narrowbut deep sort of design is that
it was a way to give everybody,all the landowners, at least,
access to the river. So is thatyour.
Mary Ann Sternberg (18:08):
I mean, that was, that was the point, of
course, because the river wasthe source of transportation,
there weren't really, thereweren't dependable roads,
because, of course, it rainsaround here, so much everything
gets muddy, so you couldn'ttransport things in wagons or
(18:31):
even on horseback much but usingthe river and until the levees
were put up, the distributaries,which are all those small bayous
that come off of the river fromBaton Rouge south, you know, up
where you are, rivers come in astributaries, but down here,
(18:53):
because of the way the hydrologyworks, the intersecting
waterways were distributaries,and that they took water out
rather than bringing water in.
But it was a whole network, andthey were used for
transportation. On the eastside, you know, there were by
bayous that went back to thelakes, where you could access
(19:17):
New Orleans and on the westside, Bayou Plaquemine, Bayou
Lafourche should go back intothe Atchafalaya Basin and wind
your way through all kinds ofplaces you can end up,
eventually in the Gulf.
Dean Klinkenberg (19:37):
It's hard for me to, I think sometimes, get my
head around what that worldwould have been like at that
point in time, the ecology ofthat area. I know that levee
construction started prettyearly, but water transportation
and the benefits and curses ofliving around so much water,
(19:58):
there must have been many ofthose. That. What was it like
living around all thosedifferent you know, waterways
and bodies of water?
Mary Ann Sternberg (20:06):
It just it was part of their it was part of
their neighborhood. I mean, theyneeded the waterways. They not
only used them fortransportation, they used, you
know, they fish in, in thewaterways, and, you know, mean
(20:29):
it was a food source. Again, I,I was in Sicily in April, and
went to see Mount Etna, andwhich had, of course, caused all
sorts of problems in theneighborhood, any number of
times. And said to the guide,you know, why don't these people
move? And they said they justthink of the volcano as part of
(20:53):
their neighborhood. And I thinkthat's the way people thought of
the Mississippi River. They knewit was going to overflow in the
spring, which is why, in thebeginning, they built their
houses up so that the water,would, you know, flow under it.
And they knew they needed thebayou and the intersecting
(21:15):
waterways to transport goods.
And I was, you know, just howthings were.
Dean Klinkenberg (21:23):
It was just their world, right?
Mary Ann Sternberg (21:24):
Just their world. Yeah.
Dean Klinkenberg (21:28):
Levee construction got going pretty
early there too though, right?
So at some point they decidedmaybe there was a way to keep
the water out more morefrequently.
Mary Ann Sternberg (21:36):
Apparently, from the earliest land grants,
there was a stipulation abouthaving to build some kind of a
levee. But there wasn't uniformyou built the levee on your
property and the next guy builtthe levee on his. So it wasn't
really until after the '27 floodthat the uniform levee got
(22:00):
built. And so now, of course,it's a monumental structure that
goes from below New Orleans way up.
Dean Klinkenberg (22:10):
It's, I forget exactly what the levee heights
are down there now, but it'salmost like a three story
building. It seems like Iremember they're monumental
structures.
Mary Ann Sternberg (22:17):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, and frankly, down
where we are. It's the only hillwe have.
Dean Klinkenberg (22:22):
Right? So where did when the spring floods
came? You know, I get houseswere kind of elevated, so more
probably most years, they couldstay dry in their house. Did
people tend to leave duringflood season? Or how did they
deal with those patterns ofthose cycles of high water?
Mary Ann Sternberg (22:41):
Well, when there, I mean, the plant. A lot
of the plantation owners hadtownhouses in New Orleans, and
they may have gone to NewOrleans. You know, no, the
overflowing levee was always, Imean, overflowing, the
(23:02):
overflowing river was always athreat. And I'm, you know, read
some stories, because they builtthe levees higher and higher. It
was just a question of, youknow, how high can your slaves
build your levee? And how areyou going to protect your
(23:25):
property? And then later, youknow, what are we going to do?
And I don't honestly know whatthe people who live there did,
other than stay very alert, andif the river was at its high
point, there were sentinels thatwalked the levees just to see
(23:51):
that there were no breaches. Imean, there's a place there were
crevasses, which, of course, iswhere the river breaks through
the levee, and you know, thenforget it. There's a street in
St John Parish on the east bankof the river, and it's called
(24:14):
Crevasse Street, and if youfollow it back a block or two,
there's just a really nice pondback there. Well, the pond is
the residual effect of the leveehaving broken and the water
being all over this area in themid 19th century. And, you know,
(24:35):
it's, that's, that was, that wasone of my clue, I got a big kick
out of all the places there werethat had names. And if you just
rode along, you wouldn't haveyou would have no idea what it
meant, like Crevasse Street. Imean, you know, but if you know.
(25:00):
Which was the point of what Idid in along the River Road was
to disentangle some of theseclues, expose what they meant.
And that was fun. Anyway, I'mdigressing. Sorry.
Dean Klinkenberg (25:16):
No, that's all right. I love those little
discoveries like that too. Likemost people driving by a little
pond would have probably notstopped to think from it. I
wonder why that pond is there,or have any sense that it's
there because of a levee break.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsome of the people then in this
area. I mean, you kind of gaveus a broad overview of the
different sort of ethnic groupsof folks who live there. Let me
(25:39):
start with this, because thisterm confused me for a long
time, and maybe you can helpclarify this for others too.
What is the German Coast? Tellus what? What that's about.
Mary Ann Sternberg (25:52):
Well, the German Coast was the area not
too far above New Orleans,mainly on the west bank, where
the German settlers werecongregated. And that was like
the late, late 18th century.
It's still referred to as theGerman coast, even though
(26:16):
there's not much German aboutit. And in fact, behind the
River Road, you know, back 5miles, 10 miles or something,
there's a big lake called Lacdes Allemands, which is Lake of
the Germans. And the Germans,apparently were terrific
(26:40):
farmers, and they would taketheir produce to into New
Orleans and sell it at the whathas become the French Market.
Well, I guess it was then theFrench one, and they would, they
would go down river, on theriver, but when they came back,
(27:01):
they would have to come the longway through the lakes and across
through one of the bayousbecause it was way too hard when
you didn't have a motor to goback upstream. But they are
credited, honestly, with, Ithink, being part of what
(27:22):
rescued the early settlers inNew Orleans, so that they.
Dean Klinkenberg (27:32):
It was their farming, their their skill at
farming, that produced enoughfood that kept New Orleans going
Mary Ann Sternberg (27:37):
Apparently, yeah.
during some lean years.
Dean Klinkenberg (27:44):
About what point in time, or what period of
time did those German settlerscome over? When did they begin
settling along that part of theriver? We're talking like mid
1700s or so?
Mary Ann Sternberg (27:57):
Okay, German settlers began arriving in 1720.
Dean Klinkenberg (28:05):
Early.
Mary Ann Sternberg (28:06):
Let's see, by 1746 the German coast is the
second largest settlement in thecolony after New Orleans.
Dean Klinkenberg (28:15):
Are there place names along that part of
the river that reflect thatGerman heritage in any way or, I
mean, like, it's kind of funny,the lake you mentioned, it's a
German lake, but it's in French.
Mary Ann Sternberg (28:26):
Well, yeah, because everything, I mean,
despite the fact that theSpanish had the colony for a
very long time, the Frenchinfluence is much stronger. So
in a lot of instances, I I mean,there's nothing much left of the
German. I mean, I rememberreading on the German names that
(28:50):
got francophied. Oh yeah, whichwas kind of amazing. And it was,
you know, just sort of one morething.
Dean Klinkenberg (29:04):
Right. I hadn't really thought about
that, but I guess, like probablymany of those early German
settlers, over time, their lastnames began to take on more of a
French sound to fit in withtheir neighbors. I think you
also wrote a little bit aboutthe 1811 slave revolt. Yes, I
don't know a lot of that. Lot ofpeople are outside of that part
(29:25):
of Louisiana are familiar withthe story. Can you kind of tell
us a little bit about that?
Mary Ann Sternberg (29:30):
Well, a lot of people in Louisiana weren't
very familiar either, until 2011when they did a kind of shown a
historic spotlight, and all of asudden it became much better
known than it had been before.
The slaves in the east bank, inSt John and St Charles parishes,
(29:51):
which, as you know, is the sameas counties we just, they
divided things up by theCatholic Church in the
beginning, and so it's neverchanged in terms of the name of
that. They began an uprising,and they marched down the River
(30:13):
Road, attacking plantations. Andunfortunate, or fortunately or
unfortunately, the militia inNew Orleans rallied and came and
defeated them all. And there wasa trial. One of the trials was a
Destrehan Plantation. And ofcourse, anybody that wasn't any
(30:37):
of the slaves who weren't killedwere doomed, and they cut off
the heads and put them on pikesand put them right along the
River Road, so that it would beas a warning to not have that
happen again. And as a matter offact, the Destrehan Plantation
(31:01):
itself has a really niceexhibit, talking of showing this
and explaining it, so people, Ithink, don't know they're going
to encounter that when they goto tour Destrehan Plantation,
but it was the largest slaverevolt, I think, in the country,
(31:23):
ever. Bigger than the John Brown.
Dean Klinkenberg (31:29):
Right.
Hundreds, hundreds of slaves,enslaved people, were involved
in that. And I had a chance tovisit that exhibit at Destrehan
a couple of years ago. And Iagree. I hope that was really
fantastic, and I thought it toldthe story pretty well.
Mary Ann Sternberg (31:44):
And, you know, I it shows how the
plantations along the river haveadjusted their focus for a long
time, and the complaints wereabsolutely valid. The
plantations told the story ofthe people who lived in the big
houses, and it somehow oranother, managed to skip right
(32:07):
over the myriads of people whowere doing the work. And in the
last, I'd say, I don't know, 15years, certainly, almost all of
the plantation houses haveincorporated the stories of both
(32:27):
their slaves and then theirtenant farmers as part of their
you know, as part of theirhistory. And so it's much more
equitable and much more real.
Dean Klinkenberg (32:40):
And so if you were a person interested in the
history of African Americansalong the River Road, then are
there a couple of places inparticular you would recommend
that people should visit?
Mary Ann Sternberg (32:52):
Well, of course, the one place that's
gotten a huge amount ofpublicity is the Whitney
Plantation, which wastransformed into a quote, Museum
of Slavery. And, you know,that's a place to start. But any
(33:13):
of them, any of the otherplantations, have pieces of
this, you know, specificallyfocused on their history. The
River Road African AmericanMuseum in Donaldsonville does a
(33:33):
good job of telling the story ofslaves and African Americans and
Blacks who have been in thearea, and they've got some
outbuildings that reflectculture, cultural artifacts.
(33:58):
Yeah, they do a good job.
Evergreen Plantation has theonly at least along the river,
and there are not many others inthe South really, it's got the
only collection of extantbuildings from the 1850. So
they've got, like 20 of the 22original slave cabins that are
(34:23):
in the back, and they did a hugejob of, kind of inventorying the
population and collectinghistoric information and stories
and finding families anddescendants and things. But they
(34:46):
are not currently open to thepublic. So I you know they may
be occasionally open. But theyaren't open to the public
anymore, so you can't accessthat.
Dean Klinkenberg (35:06):
So I remember when we toured Oak Alley, you
know, there's a collection ofslave cabins, kind of at the
back of the property, behind themansion. My, from what I recall
from this, the tour of the houseitself, the when we went around
there, they didn't have much tosay at all about the enslaved
(35:28):
people on the plantation, youkind of, but they had this
separate area you could go andtour on your own. Kind of felt
like they had split that partoff from the main history and
maybe of just guide specific.
But is that kind of the way manyplantations do it now?
Mary Ann Sternberg (35:44):
No, how long? I mean, how long ago did
you do that? Do you remember?
Dean Klinkenberg (35:47):
It was? Think it was just two years ago.
Mary Ann Sternberg (35:49):
Oh, well, then maybe they've changed it,
because for a while it was, Imean, it was really kind of
integrated into the tour. Andlike. And then Laura Plantation
is another one that does a goodjob with that. Yeah, I mean in
(36:18):
Oak Alley's slave cabins, Ithink are not original.
Dean Klinkenberg (36:26):
Right. I think that's right.
Mary Ann Sternberg (36:27):
I think that, you know, they brought
them in, but, I mean, that'sgood, you know.
Dean Klinkenberg (36:34):
Right.
Mary Ann Sternberg (36:35):
Making the effort and Oak Alley is
certainly an impressive place.
Dean Klinkenberg (36:42):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting
myself. Just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guide books for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also write
the Frank Dodge mystery seriesthat is set in places along the
Mississippi. My newest book TheWild Mississippi, goes deep into
(37:07):
the world of Old Man River.
Learn about the varied andcomplex ecosystem supported by
the Mississippi, the plant andanimal life that depends on
them, and where you can go toexperience it all. Find any of
these wherever books are sold.
Well, let's go through a coupleof the other groups of people
who came in there. If my historyis right. So there was during
(37:30):
Spanish rule, they encouragedmigration from the Canary
Islands into Louisiana. Andthere are communities of
Isleños in different parts ofLouisiana. I think there might
have been an Isleño communitykind of a near or along the
River Road. Am I rememberingthat?
Mary Ann Sternberg (37:49):
Yeah, It was right off the River Road along
Bayou Lafourche? It wasn't big,and there isn't much left of it.
I mean, it's an identifiableplace. There's an Isleño
Museum, I assume it's stillthere, in a community south of
(38:09):
New Orleans, because I haven'tbeen there in 30 years probably.
It could have been blown away bya hurricane by now, but it was a
fast it was fascinating theculture of the people from the
Canary Islands, and being there.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:23):
Right. A lot of them were fishermen, really
they. A lot of them made theirliving from from the sea. So I
was sort of curious if I wasremembering that right. So there
is an old community there.
Probably not much left forvisitors to experience of
Isleño culture in that place.
Mary Ann Sternberg (38:42):
Not, not, not along the River Road. I
mean, right, there may be somehistorical markers.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:51):
And then Cajun community, the Acadians. Cajun
country is a little furtherwest, the heart of it is, right?
But there is Cajun influence inplaces along the River Road too,
if I recall.
Mary Ann Sternberg (39:02):
Right. And as you asked about the German
Coast, there are areas along theRiver Road called the Acadian
Coast, and the descendants aredefinitely still there. There
are people who live along theriver who have river Cajun
(39:27):
accents, which is different thanthe Cajun accents you get over
by Lafayette and out near there.
There was a terrific littlemuseum in Lutcher, which is in
St James Parish, that was puttogether by there again, kind of
(39:48):
the older folks who cared aboutwhat their old culture had been,
was the. The St James ParishHistorical Society Museum. And
they never had a curator, andthey never had a professional
anybody come, and they justcollected artifacts. And the
(40:09):
people who knew what everythingwas, because they had grown up
with it, were the ones who werein charge and who would tell you
about it. And it was, it wasstrictly river Cajun culture,
the Acadian culture of thatarea. Unfortunately, they were
on a piece of property that hadbeen given them by the parish.
(40:32):
The parish needed it back, orthe city needed back to expand
the water treatment plant andthe papers and things were taken
to Nicholls State UniversityArchives. But all of the other
artifacts, I don't know wherethey went, and I was just
(40:55):
absolutely sick that the parishhadn't protected this place
because it was one of theterrific little museums out
along the river road that wereof the culture, you know, of the
various places.
Dean Klinkenberg (41:15):
Wow. That is sad. I think you wrote about
that in the book, but it soundedhopeful like they had, we're
going to build them a new place.
Mary Ann Sternberg (41:24):
At that point it was hopeful. After the
book was published,unfortunately, and they just,
they quit worrying about it. Andof course, the people who were
still around to be involved wereupset about it. I was upset
about it. I'm actually was on acommittee where that we were
trying to figure out what to dowith the artifacts. And the
(41:45):
parish just never kicked in sobuildings, and, you know, they
had an old cistern. They had agreat big log, I mean, huge
cypress log from the loggingindustry and the cistern. I
mean, I remember once when I wasthere, this woman was giving a
(42:07):
tour to a group of schoolchildren, and she was telling
him that when she grew up, thiswas how her family got water.
And, you know, it rained intothe cistern, and then they went
out and pull the spigot, andthat's where they got their
running water. And, well, notrunning water. Of course, these
kids looked at her like, Lady,are you crazy? Yeah, things like
(42:30):
that.
Dean Klinkenberg (42:33):
Well, that's a shame I was gonna say, like, I
need to put that on my list tovisit the next time.
Mary Ann Sternberg (42:37):
I wish you could.
Dean Klinkenberg (42:42):
You know, it's hard for especially for some of
the smaller communities, it'shard to hang on to all the
memories or relics from thethose periods of time. I
remember you wrote aninteresting story trying to
track or trying to look fortraces of an old Jewish
synagogue in a building inDonaldsonville. Can you tell us
about that?
Mary Ann Sternberg (43:01):
Yeah, it is documented that the Ace Hardware
store was the synagogue inDonaldsonville. Donaldsonville
had a representative populationof Jewish people, and so they
built the synagogue in 1870s andit was well attended until the
(43:28):
1940s when there really were nomore Jewish citizens in town to
maintain it, and it was soldoff. But it's exactly the same
building. It's just it has beensomewhat renovated so that it
was, you know, was a store, andI talked to the owner. I mean, I
(43:56):
had done some research so I knewwhat the history was and but I
talked to the owner, and helived above the store, and he
took me up to his livingquarters. And that's the ceiling
of the old synagogue was aboveme. I mean, it was this, you
(44:19):
know, kind of arched or peakedold wood. And he had had taken
up the floors from downstairs touse as his floors. So he had the
old pine floors from the store.
And I had talked to a woman who,elderly woman, who had gone
there, I guess, before it wasshuttered. So she'd gone there
(44:44):
in the maybe late '20s, early'30s. That was her synagogue,
and she recalled for me what itlooked like, and I got an artist
to take her words and draw whatit sounded like. And it showed
it to her, and she said, "That'sexactly it." So I gave it to Ace
(45:05):
Hardware, along with a littlehistory of the synagogue, and
they have a double sided poster,and it's up in their window.
When the last time I was down inDonaldsonville, it was still up
in their window. explaining whatit was and, you know, and
they're there architecturalelements that, if you know where
(45:32):
to look, are still there.
Dean Klinkenberg (45:37):
You won't see any Hebrew lettering anywhere at
this point, I imagine, though.
Mary Ann Sternberg (45:40):
No, and I don't know that there was much
there at that point, either,other than anyway, but that was
fun. And then the the cemetery,cemetery is still there. So,
yeah, the presence is noted.
Dean Klinkenberg (46:02):
Right. I had, I did wander through the Jewish
cemetery a few years ago when Iwas down there, and it, yeah,
it's, it's a good reminder ofthe the people who've lived in
that area. I've kind of, yeah, Idon't know if there are many
others like me, but I likewandering through cemeteries
from time to time, even as atourist, to get a sense of
(46:22):
looking at the names and thestory, and sometimes there are
short stories, even on ontombstones, it's a good way to
get a sense of the people who'velived in that area. Are there
other cemeteries, kind of, alongthe River Road that you think
would be an interestingexperience for visitors?
Mary Ann Sternberg (46:38):
For people who who like meandering
cemeteries. This, St CharlesBorromeo church in I guess
Destrehan has a very oldcemetery. Lots of old, old
tombstones. St John in Edgardhas a really old cemetery. The
(47:10):
big Catholic Ascension CatholicChurch in Donaldsonville has
some terrific old tombs.
Freddie, I mean, any of thechurches that have any age on
them have good have, you know,good cemeteries. The problem, of
course, is you can wanderthrough and not know who any of
(47:32):
the people are. So, you know theold River Road names, you know,
Haydel, Becnel, whatever. Andyou can see that. And if you
have a sense of who they were,you know, here lie they.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:51):
Right, you can kind of judge their material
success, at least, by the sizeof their monuments.
Mary Ann Sternberg (47:56):
Sometimes, yes.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:57):
We've kind of skipped past this part of it,
but you know, at some point inthe fairly recent past, this
area really transformed fromprimarily agricultural to heavy
industry. Can you talk a littlebit about that transition, and
what some of the majorindustries are that are along
(48:18):
the stretch of the River Roadnow. The types of industries.
Petrochemical, of course, you know, you didn't say it so I will, most recently, the area has been referred to as Cancer Alley. And it's because, of course, the toxicity of a lot of the products that are coming out of these various plants, and the fact that sometimes they're not as well regulated or monitored, perhaps, and most of the people who live around them or are certainly poor, and many of them are black. So until recently, there wasn't what they would are calling now environmental justice. That said, you cannot argue that industry is new to the River Road, because in the time of sugar, there was a mill at the back of almost all the plantations. And that was big industry of the 19th century. You know, sugar mills were, that was what that's how you transformed the product in the field to something that people could use. And the petrochemical industry along the river probably started when Standard Oil came to Baton Rouge in 1909. They put they built a refinery in Baton Rouge in 1909 on the river. And then, I can't remember who was the next refinery could have been Shell down in Norco, what is now Norco. But one of the reasons of course, well, the main reason was the river, because you get barges coming down the river from north and you get ocean going vessels coming up the river from the Gulf, and they can go as far as Baton Rouge. So industry has access to markets all over the country and worldwide, and because the land was plantations agricultural. Louisiana has this law about heirs having to divide the land equally anyway, families often sold off tracks of land, rather than getting into a squabble about who didn't want it and who wanted to buy who out. And it wasn't going to work. And industry came in and they would buy them out for a nice price, and people would get rid of the land, and then the industry would use the land to build aplant.
(51:43):
Probably was far easier for those families
just to sell what they owned andsplit the profits or the dollar
amount from that, rather thantrying to figure out who was
paying who for that acre or halfacre. Yeah, I didn't think about
that. That makes a lot of sense.
Mary Ann Sternberg (51:57):
Yeah. So you know, I know that industry and,
I mean, there are other thingsbesides petroleum and chemical.
You know, it being the river,Imean, there's all kinds of
maritime businesses, andthey're, I get places where
(52:19):
there's aluminum ore. And Imean, actually, you know, coming
along on the inside of the riveris fascinating to see everything
from the inside, as opposed fromthe outside of the levee. And,
(52:42):
you know, so there's a lot ofindustrial hardware into the
river in terms of, I don't know,what are those chutes and things
to load, load and unload, andthe petrochemical industry is
(53:04):
certainly a big part ofLouisiana's economy. But in
recent years, there have beengroups, kind of grassroot
groups, that have grown up inthese various areas to try and
(53:24):
protect the people fromoverreach by the industries in
terms of not monitoring what washappening, what is happening.
Dean Klinkenberg (53:45):
That's part of the dilemma I found when driving
through this area. So let's kindof transition to offering some
tips for people who aretraveling through here. There
are a lot of places where youhave the levee you know between
you and the river. You may notsee the river unless you go out
of your way to get on top of thelevee somehow, or when you're in
(54:08):
a town and you're at a park nextto the river, you've got all the
private property from industry.
I kind of understand why peoplefocus on plantations, because
it's an easy thing to do andvisit, an obvious thing to do
when you're driving through thisarea. So what can visitors do to
sort of get out of that mindsetwhere the only thing to see and
do are plantations. What elsecan people be looking for and
(54:30):
experience?
Mary Ann Sternberg (54:33):
Well, I will not argue with you. Visually
lots of places seem derelict andthere is nothing there. But that
was the reason I did along theriver road the way I did it,
which was a similar format tothe old WPA guides, where you
(54:57):
set your odometer and you alongby miles because there are still
historic old buildings. They maylook derelict, but they were a
slave cabin, or, you know, at aspecific plantation, or they
were an old plantation store, orsomething like that. Or, for
(55:19):
instance, Crevasse Street, thereare all kinds of things, and so
'Along the River Road' waswritten to explain what things
are as you're driving along, orwhat things were. That makes
(55:41):
make it a lot more interesting.
That said, I cannot defend thefact that there are expanses of
nothing. I mean, well, somethingbut nothing of historic or
cultural interest. You know, somean, you can tuck in and out of
the river road, because incertain areas, I mean, in St
(56:04):
James Parish, for instance, it'spretty dense with interesting
sites. In St Charles Parish, forinstance, particularly on the
west bank, it's all pretty muchpetrochemical or other industry.
And so if you only had a day tolook at anything, you wouldn't,
you wouldn't target there.
(56:28):
Donaldsonville, I think they'redoing a better job now of
explaining the town to visitors.
But I mean, Donaldsonville is afabulous old river town. And,
you know, I discovered so manythings in Donaldsonville. And,
you know, I mean, people wholived around here said, "Really,
(56:49):
in Donaldsonville?" And, yeah,really, you know, Plaquemines is
another river town. Yeah, itjust, you're right on the face
of it, you can ride and you justsee an open field, or you see
falling down houses, and youthink, why does she think I want
(57:10):
to be out here? And she thinksyou want to be out there because
they're hidden stories, and I'mdigging them up for you so you
don't have to and trying to tellyou that this is really a
fascinating place, and it's not,it may look it's not Colonial
Williamsburg,. It's a realplace, and it's changed. And you
(57:34):
can go this year and something'sgone that was there last year.
Dean Klinkenberg (57:44):
Like the Cajun Museum. Yeah, I will say I
really enjoyed having your bookwith me when I was driving
through that area along theRiver Road, I felt like you
helped make the invisiblevisible for me as I was
traveling through.
Mary Ann Sternberg (58:01):
That's what I was trying to do. I was trying
very hard to get people to seehow much more was out there than
was obvious, because most of itisn't obvious. And I was hoping
that by making people see howmuch history and culture was
(58:24):
still out there that theywouldn't regard it as just
Cancer Alley or PlantationParade. And I'm not sure that I
was highly successful, but Ispent over 20 years attempting
to do this, and I enjoyed everyminute of it.
Dean Klinkenberg (58:41):
Well, good.
And I completely agree with youon Donaldsonville, too. I
thought that was a cute littletown. There was a lot more there
to see than I expected, andPlaquemines, I felt the same
way. I wish I'd had more time topoke around there. So there are
definitely places to see and dothings. I think what makes it a
little challenging is that maybeyou need that sort of curation
or that help to to know what todo if you're just driving
(59:04):
through on your own without anyreference or anything to help
you out. I think you're going tomiss a lot, and I think that's
where your book really comes inhandy to bring some of those
stories out, but also to suggestplaces to visit that are still
open, that you could spend sometime at. I'm mindful of the
time, and I do want to touch ona couple more things, You
mentioned in one of your books,the batture lands. Can tell us a
(59:26):
little bit what the batture is,and maybe give us an idea of a
place or two that would be kindof fun for visitors to pop over
and get a look at the batture?
Mary Ann Sternberg (59:39):
All right, well, in the upper river, I
guess, since there's no levee,there's no real batture. Batture
is the land that's between thetoe of the levee and wherever
the water is. So in high water,there's no batture. Well, it's
there, but it's covered. And inlow order, the batture offers
(01:00:05):
many different things. I mean,in some places, of course,
marine services are on thebatture. They're on the inside
of the levee. One of the andit's hard to go to a batture
because so much of the levee isprivately owned. The trying to
(01:00:32):
think, I mean, there are fewplaces where you can climb up
the levee and go down on thebatture out by LSU, where
there's a walking and bikingtrail on the top of the levee,
and really down by New Orleans,although I think St Charles
(01:00:52):
Parish is the only one that'sincluded in my book. I didn't,
as you probably noticed, I didnot go into the New Orleans area
at all, in terms of this, interms of the books, because
there's been so many wonderfulbooks written about New Orleans
that there was sort of no pointwhere there was much more point
(01:01:14):
trying to bring attention tothis area. But any place there
is a trail on top of the leveethat's public, you can go wander
off and, in Baton Rouge, you cango down and there's a eagle's
(01:01:37):
nest in a tree. The eagle comeback every year, and the tree is
growing, you know, on thebatture. In some places, the
batture look very much likethey're wild, overgrown all
kinds of different trees andshrubs. And you could kind of
(01:02:00):
wander through there, thinkingyou're really out on a hike in
the country somewhere. And then,of course, other parts of the
batture are, as I said, areowned by plants or maritime
services. And so it's full ofmachinery, equipment,
structures.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:02:21):
If my memory is right and my geography is
right, I think there was areally nice area of batture in
front of Destrehan Plantation.
There's a bike trail, I think,that passes on the other side of
the road from the plantation,and then on the other side of
that bike trail there's a prettybroad batture area. I don't know
how accessible all that is towalk around, but if nothing
(01:02:42):
else, but I'd like the way youdescribed it. And it's basically
these little peaks into the oldworld of the Mississippi. These
are these sort of natural areasthat that are left pretty much
on their own. In some places,they're pretty narrow.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:02:59):
Yeah, Evergreen had a swamp tour in
their batture some years back.
They don't do it anymore, buttheir batture was quite wide,
and it had developed as a swamp.
And, you know, there werealligators the whole bit.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:03:22):
Nice, well, I would be negligent if I didn't
at least ask about food. Youknow, it's a part of the country
famous for good food. NewOrleans gets plenty of coverage
for its food. If you're drivingalong the River Road like what I
don't want to recommend specificrestaurants. Restaurants come
(01:03:42):
and go. I'm not interested inthat, but just in terms of types
of food, what can people expectto see if they just stop into
local establishments in thispart of the river?
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:03:49):
Fried seafood, you know. Well, I will
say I was out cruising aroundone day, and I pulled into a gas
station in where was I? NearVacherie, and I don't know there
was the gas station was sellingoyster poor boys. You know,
fried oyster poor boys. So Ibought a half of one. It was one
(01:04:11):
of the best oyster poor boys Iever had. So I would say, don't
discount anywhere. May turn outto be terrible, but it could
also turn out to be surprisinglygood. And, you know, there's
some restaurants. There's arestaurant in Lutcher that's in
an old building by the railroad.
The building's over 100 yearsold. And, you know, does plate
(01:04:34):
lunches and things, and it'svery atmospheric. It's fun. I
won't say the name of it,because you don't want to
advertise. You know Houmas Househas has restaurants. Oak Alley.
I mean, some of the plantationshave restaurants. But the truth
of the matter is, if you justkind of wending your way along,
(01:04:56):
when you stop for an attraction,ask the people who live around
there, "Where should I go getsomething to eat? Where should I
go get lunch?" And they'll tellyou, because, you know.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:05:14):
People have their favorites, and the people
who live there know best.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:05:19):
Well and there are, there are places that
are, that are of the place, asopposed to being a, you know, a
chain restaurant on the AirlineHighway or something,
Dean Klinkenberg (01:05:31):
Right. And even, like the restaurants at
the plantations, tend to catertowards certain tastes, or they
may be very good, but it'sprobably going to be a different
experience then you pop into aplace that's been there for 50
years and serves primarily alocal crowd. So I'm completely
with you on the gas station foodtoo. I remember when I was
especially when we were south inNew Orleans and heading down
(01:05:53):
toward Venice in that area, thepo' boys we had at the gas
stations were some of the bestpo' boys I had the whole trip.
So don't discount that.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:06:01):
Right.
Exactly.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:03):
Well, Mary Ann, this has been a delight to
talk to you. Fantastic to haveyou share your passion for this
part of the river and theknowledge about the history and
people of the area. If peopleare interested in keeping up
with your work or finding outmore about you, how would they
best do that?
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:06:22):
I have a website, which is
maryannsternberg.com and if theywant the books, they're
available on Amazon and alsothrough the LSU Press, Barnes
and Noble too. I think actuallyonline.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:42):
Do you have any social media accounts, like
are you posting to Instagram oranything like that?
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:06:48):
I gave that up?
Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:50):
Yeah, probably wise.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:06:51):
I just, you know, so the answer to that is
no.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:55):
All right.
Well, thank you so much for yourtime. I appreciate it, and
perhaps someday our paths willcross down along the River Road
somewhere.
Mary Ann Sternberg (01:07:04):
I do hope so. Thank you.
Dean Klinkenberg (01:07:06):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes. I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon to help keep theprogram going, just go to
patreon.com/dean.klinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the
(01:07:28):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guidebooks forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast is written and producedby me Dean Klinkenberg. Original
Music by Noah Fence. See younext time.
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