A hundred years ago, the Mississippi River that ran through Minneapolis and Saint Paul was basically a dead river. Factories, people, and local governments dumped sewage and industrial waste into the river until it was a slimy, fetid mess incapable of supporting life. But by the 1930s, attitudes started to shift and the first steps were taken to reduce the flow of pollution into the river. In this episode, Abby Moore and Cassie Champion, two of the people involved with a campaign called Sacred Water, Shared Future, describe how the Great River became the Great Sewer, then how local folks gradually cleaned it up and restored the river’s ability to support life and its status as something worthy of admiration.
They describe the goals behind Sacred Water, Shared Future and who is involved, then we talk about the importance of sharing success stories, especially the ones that unfold across time. They share a few thoughts about how we can continue to build and maintain support for clean water initiatives and what other cities might be able to learn from the success of the Twin Cities. This is a fundamentally a good-news story, one that shows that regardless of how bad something might seem, a better future isn’t just a hope but something that can be achieved, even if it takes a while.
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Cassie Champion (00:00):
Dean, that study essentially confirmed what
(00:03):
people already suspected, whichis at the time the Mississippi
River was essentially a deadecosystem. There's some really
vivid descriptive material bothbefore and after the study. Some
of the study results are thatthe dissolved oxygen was
essentially consumed, completelyunavailable, not a high enough
concentration to support fishlife, and in the study zone from
(00:28):
about Saint Paul to Red Wing,Minnesota, which is about 42
miles of river, they onlycollected three fish.
Dean Klinkenberg (00:59):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
Podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and
(01:19):
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
information on the Mississippiat
MississippiValleyTraveler.com.
Let's get going.
(01:40):
Welcome to episode 80 of theMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. Sometimes it's easy tooverlook the good, especially
when it happens over a long along time span, such as decades
or a couple of generations. Ithink that's the case with the
the state of the MississippiRiver in the Twin Cities
especially. A hundred yearsago, the Mississippi that ran
(02:02):
through Minneapolis and St. Paulwas essentially a dead river,
filled with sewage and detritus,fetid and unable to support life
at all. When you look at thatsame river today, it's hard to
imagine just how far gone theriver was in the 1920s. Over
time, though, folks in the TwinCities took a series of steps to
clean up the river and bring itback to life. And in this
(02:26):
episode, I talk with Abby Mooreand Cassie Champion, two of the
people involved with SacredWater Shared Future, a campaign
created to mark the 100-yearanniversary of the river's low
point and to spread the goodnews about the successive
efforts to restore theMississippi River's health.
So we talk about just how badthe river's world had become by
(02:46):
the 1920s and what nearly killedit. Abby and Cassie describe the
the gradual process undertakenby local folks to dramatically
slow the flow of contaminantsinto the river and to clean up
the mess it had become. We thenget into talking a little bit
about the goals behind SacredWater Shared Future, who's
involved, and the importance ofsharing success stories,
(03:09):
especially the ones that unfoldacross time.
We end our conversation bydiscussing ways we can continue
to build and maintain supportfor clean water initiatives, and
what other cities might be ableto learn from the success of the
Twin Cities. This isfundamentally a feel-good story,
a lesson that hope is neverentirely lost of what we can
(03:33):
ultimately succeed at when wejust make up our minds to do so.
So stick around and listen tothe interview, and feel free to
share your comments on what youthink about the messages in this
particular conversation.
Thanks to all of you whocontinue to show me support
through Patreon. For as littleas $1 a month, you can join this
(03:56):
Patreon community where you getearly access to every episode.
To join the Patreon community,go to
patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. IfPatreon's not your thing, hey,
buy me a coffee. I drink plentyof coffee, and I can use all the
help I can get supporting thatcaffeine habit. If you want to
know how to buy me a coffee, youcan go to
(04:16):
MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast,and you'll find instructions
there how to do so. And at thatsame place at
MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast,you'll find a list of all 79
previous episodes. Just click onany one of those episodes, such
as the the link for thisepisode, to find the show notes
(04:37):
and and see some picturesassociated with each of those
episodes.
All right, let's get on with theinterview. Well, I think today
is the first time I've beenlucky enough to have two guests
on the podcast at the same time.
So I'd like to welcome AbbyMoore and and Cassie Champion.
(05:00):
Abby Moore is the OutreachProgram Manager at the
Mississippi Watershed ManagementOrganization. She provides
program leadership, guidesstrategic initiatives, and
oversees outreach and engagementefforts for the organization.
Abby is particularly interestedin developing programs that
connect people with theMississippi River and foster
sustainable behavior across thewatershed. She's a former high
(05:22):
school science teacher and hasworked as an environmental
educator and program leader atvarious science and
environmental organizationsacross the country.
Cassandra Champion is thePrincipal Environmental
Scientist for Met CouncilEnvironmental Services,
coordinating the stream andtributary monitoring program.
(05:42):
Since 2021, she has facilitateda group of regional partners to
plan and launch the Sacred WaterShared Future campaign. Abby and
Cassie, welcome to the podcast.
Abby and Cassie (05:52):
Thank you so much for having us.
Dean Klinkenberg (05:55):
It seemed like the logical place to start for
the our discussion was to kindof look back in time. It seems
like the the 100th anniversaryof a milestone study seems to be
a motivating factor in formingthis organization as well. So
take us back to this 1926 studythat had a little bit to say
about the quality of the riverat that time. What did that
(06:17):
study reveal about theMississippi River and the Twin
Cities?
Cassie Champion (06:22):
Sure. Dean, That study essentially confirmed
what people already suspected,which is at the time the
Mississippi River wasessentially a dead ecosystem.
There's some really vividdescriptive material both before
and after the study. Some of thestudy results are that the
(06:42):
dissolved oxygen was essentiallyconsumed, completely
unavailable, not a high enoughconcentration to support fish
life, and in the study zone fromabout Saint Paul to Red Wing,
Minnesota, which is about 42miles of river, they only
collected three fish, and Idon't mean kinds, I mean three
(07:04):
actual fish, and the one of themwas a short-nosed gar in Spring
Lake, which is pretty close toHastings, Minnesota. That's Pool
Two. That fish was described asvery sluggish. So the the study
results were really just dismaland reflecting what the
conditions, as they were alreadyunderstood by people living near
(07:28):
the river.
Dean Klinkenberg (07:28):
What were the sources of pollution at that
Cassie Champion (07:34):
Yeah, I think that's kind of a an interesting
story. So I'm going to back usup in time a little bit, just to
time? Where were? Why was theriver in such bad shape?
point out that people have livedalong the Mississippi River in
this area of the MississippiRiver for 1000s of years, and
always been dependent on theriver. And what what really
started to change was afterabout 1860, the population just
(07:55):
grew and grew and grew and grewin a way that was ecologically
unprecedented in the life of theriver, and all of these people
living really, really closetogether, doing what people
always do. Get it? Did I mentionthat I work for the wastewater
(08:16):
utility of the Twin Cities? Justin case I didn't make that
clear, I do. That. That thatincrease in population and the
the fundamentally untreated,unmanaged sewage was the biggest
initial factor. So, if I can, Iwould like to read just a short
(08:36):
excerpt of of an editorial fromthe Minneapolis Tribune from
1877. So people were reallyunderstanding the the the
desperate public healthsituation that was caused just
by this many people simplyliving together as humans with
normal bodily functions. So, soagain, this is from 1877, the
(08:59):
Minneapolis Tribune. "It is awell-settled fact among
scientists that all otherprovisions for the health and
comfort of a city aresubordinate to the one vital
desideratum of adequatesewerage." And I like how they
(09:19):
use a little Latin to get theirpoint across that the sewer, a
network of sewers to collectthis human sewage, is the most
critical necessity for a city tobe healthy, and it was. And by
1900, there were 120 miles ofsewer in the Twin Cities
carrying waste from homes andbusinesses directly into the
(09:40):
Mississippi River, so that'skind of step one and two is
population growth and thedevelopment of the sewer
network.
Dean Klinkenberg (09:49):
And I think at the time the the attitude
probably toward the the sewagewas the the solution to
pollution is dilution. Wasn'tthat the prevailing mindset?
Cassie Champion (09:58):
Yep, and the the river, of course, that. This
point, 1900 was still completelywild and free, and a big,
reliable annual spring floodcould be counted on to mostly
wash the pollution awaydownstream. So there's there's
the not just dilution as thesolution to pollution, but
always live upstream.
Dean Klinkenberg (10:17):
Unfortunately, not all of us get to live
upstream, right?
Cassie Champion (10:20):
Right.
Dean Klinkenberg (10:21):
I'm in St.
Louis, and I'm downstream ofChicago's waste. So we have our
own issues. What the the thefact that so much sewage and
pollution got dumped into theMississippi at that time and for
a generation at least. What whatdoes that tell us about people's
attitudes toward rivers duringthat time period?
Cassie Champion (10:46):
I think rivers really were considered. There's
no other word than sewer. Partof the function of having a
river in your city was that itwould remove the waste from your
city, and that was sort ofunderstood for a long time. And
I'm I'm not a legal historian,so I'm not going to try to
explain how that changed. Buthere in the Twin Cities, the the
(11:06):
next biggest change, besides thedevelopment of the sewer
network, was kind of the buildout of of our our river commerce
network, primarily the lock anddam system. So that the the
first Lock and Dam No. 1, thefirst one on the Mississippi
River was built in Saint Paul.
We call it the Ford Dam up here,and that was completed in 1917.
And so there's the first momentwhere our wild and free river
(11:28):
now has become a still steppedpool. That's what the lock and
dams have done. They've chainedthe wild and free flowing river
to still stepped pools, holdingthe water in place, but then
also holding the sewage inplace. So that's really kind of
the final tipping point towardsthe real ecological devastation
(11:49):
in the Twin Cities region.
And if it's if it's okay, I wantto read one more quote from a
travel memoir from 1933. Youmight be familiar with Clarence
Jonk. He built his own homemadehouseboat and launched it in
Minneapolis and intended tonavigate to New Orleans, of
(12:12):
course, in 1933. But made itactually to Winona, which is not
very far. That's still inMinnesota. But I just want to
read you this description heleft of his launch point in
Minneapolis. So again, Octoberof 1933. "The houseboat has been
lowered into the sewage-ladenwater, where fish die, float,
(12:35):
and turn idly about in theeddies, showing their
worm-infested bodies like acurse to the men who infected
their world. Continuously, theirwhite mouths nudged the manure
of humanity, the offwash of thestreets and gutters, and here,
curling under our starboardside, a brown foam, bubbles and
(12:59):
steams. Such as our baptism intothe great river."
Dean Klinkenberg (13:06):
That's a ringing endorsement of water
quality in that time. I'msurprised he felt comfortable
getting in a boat anywhere nearthat that that water at that
time. You know, I'd be a littlenervous about it.
Cassie Champion (13:17):
Yeah, he describes them as pushing as
fast as they could for cleanerwaters.
Dean Klinkenberg (13:23):
So, tell me a little bit more about what
really began to bend the curvethen on water quality in the
Mississippi. I think the lock,as I understand it, the locks
and dams were part of theimpetus for that because it, as
you said, it trapped all thissewage behind it, and it made
this made the pollution thatmuch more obvious and
(13:43):
unbearable. I heard some reallyhorrific stories from South St.
Paul, across from thestockyards, and the quality of
the water there, especiallyafter the dam was built
downstream. So, so tell us alittle bit about sort of the arc
of how people began to recognizethis is not really a good idea,
and the step, the initial stepspeople took to clean it up.
Cassie Champion (14:03):
Yeah, so this is really kind of leading to
1933 when Minnesota formed theMinneapolis Saint Paul sewerage
district, and the point was tocollect the sewage and move it
as far downstream as possible,where it can be treated and
(14:24):
where the plant effluent can bedisinfected, and so that's the
the earliest description of theplans for Metropolitan Water
Resource Recovery Facility,which that's where I work. It's
the oldest and largestwastewater treatment plant on
the Mississippi River. It cameonline with primary treatment
only in 1938, and thedescriptions of the river is
(14:46):
that the floating sludge matscleared up within four months of
plant beginning operation.
Dean Klinkenberg (14:53):
A good band name, floating sludge mats. You
know.
Cassie Champion (14:59):
Good idea.
Dean Klinkenberg (15:01):
Wow! Within four months, so really, it was,
it didn't take that much tobegin to really clean things up.
Cassie Champion (15:08):
Yeah, really, giving the river space to clean
itself up. A wastewatertreatment plant is is
essentially accelerating naturalprocesses that would be
happening anyway, just at a muchbigger scale and a much faster
scale, in a way that the rivercan tolerate.
Dean Klinkenberg (15:24):
There have been probably a lot of fairly
incremental steps since then.
Maybe the biggest force changewas the Clean Water Act that
really improved water quality inrivers and lakes across the
country. Kind of like take usnow to the present. Like, how's
the river in the Twin Citiesdoing today?
Abby Moore (15:47):
I don't have data to share, so Cassie, chime in if
you'd like. But I know it'sdoing well compared to how it
was 100 years ago, for sure.
Like the water quality hasimproved pretty significantly.
The a lot of the ecosystems thatwere destroyed are sort of back
and functional. We've gotterrestrial and aquatic
(16:07):
ecosystems that are dependent onthe river, that are healthy and
thriving, and there's a hugeamount of effort by lots of
overlapping jurisdictions,particularly in the Twin Cities
metro area, to continue toprotect and improve water
quality and habitat, and youknow, generally like recognize
(16:28):
the importance of all the thingsthat we get from living next to
the river. I mean, the river isthe lifeblood of the Twin
Cities, and we are here becauseof it. And you know the
generally the feelings of a lotof residents towards the river
have really changed over time. Ithink your question earlier
(16:50):
about how does the fact that itgot so polluted reflect people's
feelings about the river andsort of how it exists and why
it's there, and it was reallydifferent 100 years ago for lots
of reasons. I mean, thepopulation in the in Minneapolis
itself grew really, really fastaround the development of the
(17:12):
mills, and so suddenly there'sall sorts of people setting up
shop and using the river forlots of things, looking at a
looking at it as a resource tobe used, and not thinking as
much about the fact that youhave to also care for something
(17:32):
that's sustaining yourlivelihood and your life. So I
think that that attitude hasshifted quite a bit.
Dean Klinkenberg (17:44):
It's been a long time since there's been a
floating sludge mat. So everytime I go up to the Twin Cities,
I am envious of the amount ofpublic space along the river and
throughout. You know, basicallyfrom the suburbs in the
northwest all the way down tothe suburbs in the southeast,
the the amount of the ease withwhich people can get next to the
(18:07):
river makes me jealous becausein St. Louis, it's much harder
lift to get anywhere close tothe river, especially in the
city. So it seems like that'spart of what probably plays in
your favor when it comes toreally pushing for water, you
know, protecting water quality.
Now, is there's really highpublic engagement with the
(18:28):
Mississippi now? Apparently, youcan even rent a hot tub now and
float down the river.
Cassie Champion (18:34):
Very excited to try that. I haven't done it yet,
but I can't wait.
Dean Klinkenberg (18:38):
So, what is where where is the the gap then,
or the need that Sacred WaterShared Future is trying to
address within this this thisworld where things, from an
outsider's perspective, looklike they're going pretty well,
especially compared to othercities.
Cassie Champion (18:54):
Yeah, I like that question a lot because what
the story that we just sharedwith you about the the pollution
and cleanup of the river isreally not well known in the
Twin Cities to residents. If ifAbby or I are out doing some
kind of engagement work and askthe question, is the Mississippi
(19:14):
River cleaner now than it was100 years ago? The answer,
almost across the board is theriver is dirtier now than it's
ever been, and it's just gettingdirtier. So this this really
dire, you know, ecologicaldestruction. The the story of it
is just completely lost. Likethey did such a good job solving
(19:35):
the problem that regionally weforgot there ever was a problem,
and that they ever solved it. Sothat's part of what Sacred Water
Shared Future is about (19:41):
is about sharing this story, but not just
only for the sake of knowing alittle tidbit of our really
important regional history, butalso as an inspiration, because
the Mississippi River stillneeds enormous amounts of public
investment and protection. Andhas is facing really complicated
(20:03):
existential problems, and thenthis story can be an inspiration
of look how complicated thatproblem was. Look what they had
to do to solve it. They didthat, and we can use that as a
model and an inspiration togoing forward to address the
problems that we're facing inthe present time.
Abby Moore (20:23):
Yeah, I would. One of the things, just to kind of
add on to that, I think aboutwith environmental degradation
in general. It feels very oftenall doom and gloom, and there's
a lot of big problems, and it isa lot. There's a lot of scary
stuff going on to as far asenvironmental degradation, but
(20:46):
it's important to illustrate forpeople how the ways that regular
people participate in effortsthat lead to change, and because
I think because we hear a lot ofthe doom and gloom and it feels
really really big, it's easy tojust be like, there's nothing I
can do. Like I and and alongwith that, I think particularly
(21:10):
with yes, the institution of thewastewater treatment plant and
then the Clean Water Act,demonstrating how policy does
lead to change because I thinkyou know there's often such an
100 years is more than mostlifespans, but it's still
attitude about regulatorythings, like impeding on
people's livelihoods and so on.
But the result that we get fromin from implementing those
(21:33):
regulations is benefits us all.
And I think really being able topoint to the specifics of how
federal policy and state andregional policy have brought us
here to this place of having amuch cleaner river is helpful to
understand how those big kind ofsweeping bits of legislation
(21:57):
actually really make adifference, and that that's also
how we can make these kind ofreally big shifts.
(22:21):
something you can think about,and I think all the time about
like my family. I come from along line of St. Paul residents.
My my mom and my grandma and herparents all grew up in St. Paul,
and so they were around for allof this, and that feels
manageable to me to sort ofthink about, and so recognizing
(22:42):
the amount of improvement thatwe've experienced in that short
time is, as Cassie said,inspiring and is motivating to
continue the effort andrecognize that even if we don't
feel powerful as individuals, ifenough of us get together, we
can make pretty big change.
Dean Klinkenberg (23:03):
I think it is an inspiring story on so many
levels, in part because thechanges are so dramatic in water
quality when you look back. SoI'm curious, though, you raise
my curiosity with this. Whenwhen when people tell you they
think the water quality is worsenow than it was before, what
what do they identify asproblems? What what is driving
that perception that the riveris not doing so well today?
Abby Moore (23:28):
I mean, people just assume that it's very polluted.
I think there's some of it isbased on just the fact that
we're a big city on a river.
People make the assumption. Ican say from my personal
experience, having grown up withmy mom, who came from St. Paul
and grew up right along theriver, very close to where I
grew up, she grew up before theClean Water Act, and her reality
(23:53):
was that the river wasdisgusting and it was so smelly
that you didn't want to even benear it, and and people didn't
engage with the river when I wasgrowing up the way they do now.
We did not have the parkinfrastructure and public access
developed that exists now, andso I grew up in a time when it
(24:16):
was getting better and better,but that was not my perception.
My mom told me it was really,really dirty and terrible, and I
grew up in fear of ever evenlike touching the water. So I
think there's a lot of justhistorical momentum on the river
being dirty or polluted, and soand and I guess you know Cassie
(24:40):
and I both work fororganizations who are trying to
get the word out to the world.
Like we've made a lot ofimprovement, and we should all
be proud of ourselves. And youshould enjoy the river, but it's
still taking a while to kind ofget that to permeate through
(25:01):
various cultures. And I thinkthere's also people who come
from all over the country andall over the world who live here
and have their own experiencewith rivers that they're just
translating to ours.
Dean Klinkenberg (25:13):
Right. Well, like having been lucky enough to
travel to a lot of places, Imean, the Mississippi and the
Twin Cities is far cleaner thanmost of the rivers I've been to
in other parts of the world,even in Europe. So it's it's
helped it's helpful maybe spreadthat message far and wide. And I
imagine if you're an olderperson who grew up with that
memories of you know the riverbeing this stinky, dangerous
(25:35):
place to go, it's really hard toshake that that image. And maybe
some of that gets passed on tothe kids as well, but partly
what I'm hearing is that there'sthere really isn't a rational
sort of basis for it. The riverwater quality is is pretty darn
good these days, though thereare still some threats. So take
tell us then about Sacred WaterShared Future. What is the
(25:56):
organization? Who's involved?
What do you want to do?
Cassie Champion (26:01):
Yeah, we're not really an organization. That's a
very strong word. We are a loosepartnership. So what what we did
we came together starting in2021 was with the idea that this
2026 anniversary of thislandmark study is coming up, and
it's a great opportunity toreally focus some regional
(26:24):
attention on the river, getpeople to understand a little
bit about the historicalcontext, and also really just
find their own personalconnection. And so we wanted to
do that by creating a reallyengaging kind of for a long
time, we called it an umbrella.
Now we just call it our brand,Sacred Water Shared Future. That
name, the logo, the tagline-thatwas our first three years of
(26:48):
work. Was coming to that anddoing a little bit of
fundraising among the planningpartners to build something that
would be really broadlyengaging, and that a lot of
organizations would be able tosee themselves fitting into and
contributing to. So the theplanning partners were primarily
government and nonprofitorganizations in the Twin Cities
(27:11):
who are interested in theMississippi River. And once once
we got the campaign, the brandsettled, and the campaign
website launched.by late 2025,we really have been doing our
best to spread the word to asmany organizations as we can
reach, to engage them, toencourage them to plan events,
(27:34):
to reach out to their ownaudiences, to really broadly
reach as many people in as manyways as possible to highlight
our connections to theMississippi River. However, we
can.
Dean Klinkenberg (27:52):
How's it going? What have you seen? Have
you seen? Have you been aroundlong enough yet to really see
some concrete results from that?
And if so, tell me about it.
Abby Moore (28:02):
From the campaign itself?
Dean Klinkenberg (28:04):
Yeah.
Abby Moore (28:05):
So I actually should have checked the number, but I
think we're close to 120 eventsregistered in the Sacred Water
Shared Future calendar, and andwe've really we we built this
whole thing with the assumptionand correct one that
organizations would be excitedto participate in this campaign,
(28:30):
mostly by leveraging activities,events that they would be having
anyway along the river to learnabout the river and celebration
of the river, whatever, and thenthey connect it to the campaign
to help raise awareness, andalso help get the word out to a
broader audience that theirevent is happening. So we've
(28:51):
seen a lot of great engagement,participation events. Folks
have, so on our website we havemedia resources, so
organizations can put stuff intheir newsletters. We've seen
people do that, or organizationsdo that, I should say. Use our
(29:12):
social media graphics. You know,just really trying to push push
it out there as much aspossible. And so, seeing all
different kinds of organizationsjump on board, and the one thing
that we spend a lot of timeclarifying is that Sacred Water
Shared Future is not actually anorganization. We don't even have
(29:33):
any staff. We don't have a anoffice or even an email address.
We're really just a bunch oforganizations partnering on
trying to get the word out aboutthis important anniversary, and
hopefully help magnify thatmessage that we've made a lot of
(29:54):
progress. And we also need tostay committed because the the
work that we've done is what haspaid off, but we can't take our
eyes off the prize.
Cassie Champion (30:05):
Maybe just a couple examples of some of our
fun events. I hope yourlisteners would like to know
that in Minneapolis we have afestival the last two weeks of
January, first two weeks ofFebruary, called Art Shanties.
So an art art shanty that's playon ice shanty, which is
basically an ice fishing house.
Only these are artist designed,artist created this kind of
(30:26):
experiential out on a frozenlake. You just walk around, and
some of them are puppets, someare music, some are visual art.
We had a Sacred Water SharedFuture art shanty. So the the
outside was decorated kind of tolook like the murky, dirty 1920s
(30:46):
1930s river with bubbles ofmethane gas and just the muddy
color. And then you open thedoor and you're inside, and
there and it looked like cleanblue water and fish and plants.
Then people could learn aboutthe history of the river. We had
actual art activity that theycould contribute to. That's that
(31:07):
is something that's going to beongoing all year, and we'll
produce like a really largeinstallation. So that was that
was our first. That was ourkickoff event. That's a pretty
fun one because that's sort ofunique to the Twin Cities that
we do stuff on top of our lakesin the winter, and coming up,
one of maybe one of our biggestevents will be the Minnesota
State Fair, which is a real bigdeal up here. There's a whole
(31:29):
building called the EcoExperience, and the the theme
for this year is Sacred WaterShared Future. So there will be
a big Mississippi River kind ofart and history installation.
I'm not privy to the design ofit, other than to know that it's
going to be something supercool. So I'm just as excited as
anybody else to see it. But andso those are some of the bigger
(31:53):
ones. There have been paddlingevents, other kinds of
storytelling, story collectionevents, as many different kinds
of ways as organizations canthink of creating events that
would connect people to theriver. We're we're seeing those
show up on our calendar.
Dean Klinkenberg (32:12):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here interrupting
myself. Just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guidebooks for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also wrote
'The Wild Mississippi,' a guidethat goes deep into the complex
(32:32):
ecosystems supported by theMississippi, the plant and
animal life that depends onthem, and where you can go to
experience it all. If you likefiction, check out my Frank
Dodge mystery series. Each bookis set in places along the
Mississippi River. My newestbook is a travel memoir called
Slowboats, Chicken Busses, andthe Radical Choice to Trust the
(32:53):
World.' The book explores a
simple question (32:57):
What happens when you stop asking "What if
something goes wrong?" and startasking, "What if everything goes
right?" Find out more atdeanklinkenberg.com/bettersafethansorry.
Well, I may have to try to getback up there for the state
fair. I've been a couple timesin the past.
Cassie Champion (33:19):
You do totally have to get up here for the
state fair.
Dean Klinkenberg (33:21):
Yeah, but that that provides a little extra
motivation for me to get upthere maybe again this year. One
of the things that I think isoften a struggle when we talk
about increasing engagement withthe river and getting people to
the river more is that the theriver often has multiple uses.
There's multiple demands on theriver. So can you speak to a
(33:43):
little bit how that plays out inthe Twin Cities? Like, who are
some of the different let's callthem interests or whatever? What
are the different kinds of usesthat are at play, and is there
how much competition orcooperation is there amongst
those different kinds of uses?
Abby Moore (34:00):
I can speak a little bit to the upstream of the most
the the lock and dam in downtownMinneapolis that was the lock
was closed in 2015, mostlybecause shipping traffic had
basically died off, but also toprevent the migration of
(34:21):
invasive carp up into the upperparts of the river. At this
point, in this upper section ofthe river, at least through the
Twin Cities, I mean, there'scertainly multiple demands on
it. Like we get our water, ourdrinking water for both
Minneapolis and St. Paul comesfrom this upper stretch of the
river. There's recreationaltraffic. There's stormwater
(34:43):
drainage and that sort of thing,but it's relatively quiet up
here, and it's there's asignificant difference even once
you get down into like downtownSt. Paul and stuff where the
barge traffic starts picking upat the port of St. Paul. And
that's as as high up on theriver as barges go now, and so.
(35:06):
But up here, we're lucky in alot of ways that we can really
focus on building the publicaccess and really work on
connecting people to the riverbecause they can get right up
next to it and it's relativelysafe. I should obviously caveat
(35:28):
that we don't recommend peopleswim in the river because of
currents and crazy changingbottoms and all that kind of
stuff. But in general, likebeing next to the river is
pretty safe, and being in akayak or a small boat is also
relatively safe because there'sjust not a lot of stuff out
there to be competing forshipping lanes and things like
(35:49):
that. So we're really lucky inthat way that we can focus more
on the connecting and enjoyingthe river and benefiting from
our drinking water source, Idon't know. Do you want to talk
about anything downstream,Cassie? Once the barges come in
Cassie Champion (36:08):
Yeah, I was just thinking about the and the
University of Minnesota rowingcrew has their crew house on the
river, so that's kind of aunique thing. There's a there's
also a crew house in St. Paul. Idon't know how to think of that
in terms of competition. Likethere, you know, it's a big
river. There's houseboats.
There's fishing boats. There'sfishing piers. There's, it's all
there. Like you can kind of getto know the river any way you
(36:34):
want to. There's historic NativeAmerican sites to see in
downtown St. Paul, there's allall of the possible airport, all
of the possible ways ofconnecting with the river, kind
of condensed just just in ourlittle region.
Abby Moore (36:51):
I will say that I'm always really amazed when I
because I'm so familiar with theriver in the Twin Cities, and
particularly the stretch ofMinneapolis upstream of the
closed lock. I am amazed when Igo to like St. Louis or some of
the bigger cities that aredownstream from us. Just how big
(37:12):
the river is and how much isgoing on. We just don't have
that here.
Dean Klinkenberg (37:18):
Right.
Abby Moore (37:18):
Yeah. the The river here is a gorge. So if that's
another thing that's special,it's the only gorge on the
Mississippi River. So, insteadof the the wide flat water that
you see further south, we've gotsteep cliff cliff sides on
either side of our river formuch of the stretch of the Twin
Cities.
Dean Klinkenberg (37:37):
Yeah, and I don't think there are many parts
of the Mississippi where you'dbe able to like successfully
have the rent a kayak stations,you know, where people can put
in at one place and then ridedown to a few miles down to to
take out. And now, of course,you can have a floating hot tub
you can rent and see how thatgoes. I may have to try that one
of these days. You occasionallyhave tour boats, you know,
(38:01):
steamboat replicas that'll beyou know around, but not none of
the heavy traffic until downtownSt. Paul. Yeah, although there
is a lot of recreationaltraffic, especially beginning
around St. Paul, the boats get alittle bigger. There are more
marinas, so you have I guessthey're they're conflicting uses
in a sense that you have youknow some of those users need
(38:21):
slightly different kinds ofriver, and they probably have
advocate for the river to be aparticular way, so they can take
their bigger boats out, or sothe tour boats can can do their
tours, or or those kinds ofthings.
Abby Moore (38:35):
Yeah.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:36):
But there's not much in the way of really
substantial flood risk either,because most of you know most of
the areas that would be affectedby high water are not inhabited
at this point.
Abby Moore (38:46):
Right. Right. Yeah, that's some changes from the
early 20th century. Yep.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:51):
No Bohemia Flats anymore.
Cassie Champion (38:53):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:57):
So when you're there is sort of like a big
decision coming up soon, and Idon't know how involved you are
with this, but there is sort ofthis ongoing study with the
Corps of Engineers about what todo with the decommissioned locks
and dams. Do you do you have anyany thoughts on that process, or
(39:17):
any any sense about where thatcould be headed, or what
possibilities excite you?
Abby Moore (39:24):
I don't I don't know. I mean, honestly, there's
it's it's really cool to thinkabout the restoration of a free
flowing river through a part ofour area, and just the potential
to restore some more of thenatural ecology of the area, and
also be able to just experiencethe river in a slightly more
(39:46):
dynamic way. I think can alsoconnect people to it
differently. There's certainly alot of interests, though, who
care a lot about maintaining asteady river level for the
things that they use the waterfor and or the river for. My
organization hasn't reallyweighed in on this yet. I think
(40:08):
we're kind of waiting to seewhat happens. You know, we're
always interested in the waterquality implications and what
kinds of work we can and shouldbe doing to make sure that we're
maintaining and improving waterquality in the river, and so I
think we're we're waiting to seewhat happens. But it's really
(40:31):
interesting to hear theconversations and hear kind of
the interests on both ends andthink about what the
implications are of a free-it'sa slightly free-flowing river
flowing through a majormetropolitan area, just because
of the need, because of theinfrastructure, the need to sort
(40:52):
of feel like there's some levelof control or predictability
about what it's going to do.
Dean Klinkenberg (40:59):
Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't mind, you know,
mentioning some of the theinterests here. I mean, I have a
friend who's part of the rowingclub, and I know they've been
very adamant in wanting tomaintain the river as for them
because they've grown accustomedto having that available, that
access, which is kind of, whichwould be probably would go away
if the other vision was enactedthat would have a more
(41:20):
free-flowing river. I'm kind ofcurious. Like the other, it
seems like the other factor inthis that is important, though,
is the issues around maybe waterquality or drinking water. That
can you just sort of fill me inon the where where where are the
pipes or the the stations thatpull water from the Mississippi,
(41:41):
and how might that be impactedby more free-flowing Mississippi
if the dams were removed?
Abby Moore (41:48):
So the intake for both St. Paul and Minneapolis
are up north of Minneapolis onthe river. There is a dam that
would be maintained in order tomaintain the water level
necessary to ensure deep enoughwater to pull what's needed for
(42:09):
those two cities. So, the damsthat they're talking about
removing, neither one of themwould impact Minneapolis or St.
Paul's water intake. So, yeah, Idon't actually think there's an
intake in this section. Whateverthat Pool 1 and 2 would it be,
Cassie, that would be combined?
Cassie Champion (42:31):
Yeah, that's right.
Abby Moore (42:33):
I don't think that I'm aware of any water intake on
that section that would beimpacted. So that's obviously a
really significant concern, andbecause we rely on river water,
I guess it's lucky that we haveenough dams that we can think
about how to maintain one andtake a few out, and still, you
know, enjoy the predictabilityof a water level that's high
(42:56):
enough to supply our drinkingwater and a section of river
that's more more free flowing.
Dean Klinkenberg (43:02):
Yeah, that so that's yeah for people who are
unfamiliar with that part of theriver. It's the Upper Saint
Anthony Lock and Dam. That damis not going to be removed. That
one is the one that's essentialto maintaining the water level
for the intake. And so it's theLower Saint Anthony Falls Lock
and Dam, and then the Ford Damor Lock and Dam One, that are
being considered for removal. Ihave a wastewater question. I
(43:27):
think so.
Cassie Champion (43:28):
I'll do my best.
Dean Klinkenberg (43:31):
I know there there's I think there are even
some federal mandates aroundthis. That there we're we're at
a period of time now wherethere's a movement to try to
separate storm runoff fromsewage runoff is that right? Can
you speak a little bit to howthat's playing out in your area
and what the challenges ofexecuting that are?
Cassie Champion (43:53):
Yeah, that's that's another really important
piece of Twin Cities waterhistory is that sewer separation
was largely completed by theearly '90s. So obviously an an
enormous amount of publiceffort, public investment,
public coordination to ensurethat that happened. But largely
(44:15):
in the Twin Cities, thestormwater goes to some
receiving water body and thesewer, the the sewage is going
through pipes to a wastewatertreatment plant. We don't we
don't have sewer overflows inthe Twin Cities. We just don't
have them.
Dean Klinkenberg (44:33):
How did that happen so early?
Cassie Champion (44:35):
They that's that was just a I can't speak as
well as a historian would, butthat was just a really high
priority soon after the CleanWater Act.
Dean Klinkenberg (44:47):
All right. So I know I know here in St. Louis
we're still struggling withthat, and we have a big project
underway to to bore tunnelsunderground for stormwater
runoff, but it's expensive. It'svery expensive in existing
cities to pull this off. That'spart of the challenge. I know my
water bill is about to double,and it's not just because of
(45:08):
that, but also because we're anold city. We have old pipes that
need to be replaced. All ofthat, of course, affects water
quality. All of all that runoff,you know, ends up in the
Mississippi, and we do haveperiods after heavy rain where
we have untreated sewage thatends up dumping into the
Mississippi. Does that so thatdoesn't happen in in the Twin
(45:30):
Cities?
Cassie Champion (45:31):
We don't do that here. Darn it! No beach
closures. No nothing.
Abby Moore (45:37):
One thing I think that this is illustrating too is
that the state and the localgovernments in Minnesota we take
we take water seriously and likekeeping our a lot of our
identity is water here, and sothe river is just one of tons of
(45:57):
bodies of water that are beingactively protected by lots of
different layers of governmentand advocacy groups and that
sort of thing. And so, anyway, Ithink the effort to do that
combined sewer separation early.
I mean, it still happened youknow, 20 years or so after the
(46:19):
implementation of the CleanWater Act, but they got on it
right away, and yeah. So for along time now, we've had
separated sewers, which yes, I'msure has made a really
significant difference in thewater quality of our section of
river.
Dean Klinkenberg (46:38):
So, in in your experience, then, like, what
sort of messages seem to beespecially persuasive when you
talk with folks about themechanisms to improve water
quality or valuing the qualityof water, the river quality,
water quality in the river?
Abby Moore (46:58):
A lot of times, I it's helpful, you know, when I
have the opportunity to actuallylike have interactions with
people about water quality andprotecting water quality, to
find some sort of common groundabout why water is important to
us, or at least acknowledge thatit's important. We don't have to
have the same reasons. I thinkyou know different folks have
different values around waterand the things that they like to
(47:22):
do. There's a lot of people whofish, for instance, on our
section of the river. But thismessaging certainly goes across
the state, where there's a lotof people who like to fish and
swim and have experiences goingto lakes and stuff around the
country or around the state forvacations, and so right there,
(47:45):
that sort of connection withwater can be helpful for kind of
a ground, common ground aboutwhy it's important to protect
it.
And then the other piece that Ithink can be really like helpful
for folks to think about is thefact that our drinking water
comes from the river, and thatwe have really, really high
quality drinking water here, butthat comes with a lot of effort
(48:09):
to protect water quality. Soafter that, I think really just
helping people understand whatit is that creates water quality
problems in our section of riverand in the Twin Cities Metro,
like one of the mostsignificant, if not the most
significant, source ofstormwater pollution here is
from landscaping debris breakingdown leaves and grass clippings
(48:33):
and sticks and things like that,and so recognizing that is
actually like a pretty easysolve. Like if we pay attention
to the way that we take care ofour yards and dispose of or
secure that landscaping debris,that can make a big difference.
(48:55):
Little things like plantingdeep-rooted native plants
instead of turf grass everywheremakes a difference.
So really helping people justunderstand some of the basic
mechanisms for how the rivergets polluted, and some of the
really low-hanging fruit.
Picking up dog poop, throwingtrash in a garbage can you know,
things like that make a bigdifference. And so by adopting
those behaviors ourselves andencouraging communities that we
(49:19):
exist in to do the same. That'show we can make a really big
difference. I also always thinkit's really great to highlight
those communities on a smallscale who are doing things that
are really impactful, reducingtheir salt use as a like a
homeowners association who'sworking hard to reduce their
(49:40):
salt use, or high school campusthat's overhauled a lot of their
landscaping to include morenative plants, or things like
that that are really accessibleand help people understand how
they can be involved inprotecting water quality.
Cassie Champion (50:01):
I'll just add on, talking to people about
built water infrastructure, likeexplaining that because it's
really it's pretty invisible,and it's not the the built water
cycle is just not as wellunderstood as the natural water
cycle, but they're not separatefrom each other. So that's a
(50:21):
message that I share wherever Ican. Like, how does the water
that comes out of a cloud getinto your shower? Kind of those
the the way we get drinkingwater into our homes and
businesses, and then where doesit go after we use it? That's a
critical part of the water cycleand understanding our
connectedness to water, and it'sa it's a huge amount of what we
(50:45):
pay for in terms of ourconnectedness to water. So the
public needs to understand whyit matters, why they're using
it, and why we spend so muchmoney doing this.
Dean Klinkenberg (50:58):
That's good. I kind of feel like sometimes
people have lost touch withwhere so many of things come
from, like you know where thewater comes from in our homes,
but also like eggs come from thegrocery store, right? Like we're
not always in tune with thewhole life cycle of where this
these things come from. Yeah,I'm also like a huge fan of
helping individuals findsomething they can do that isn't
(51:22):
just a token effort, butactually is a step in in
improving the water quality ofthe world around them. That's
why I like the idea of thenative plantings. Yeah, we just
redid our backyard here lastyear with native plants, and I'm
having a lot of fun this summerwatching it take over and trying
to figure out what to plantnext. But it also made me
wonder. Like, given yourwinters, like salt, road salt,
(51:46):
and ice salt for sidewalks, andall has to be a major threat to
water quality, but also to thepotential pollution of the
ground. What are thealternatives that you are
advocating for now instead ofusing salt?
Abby Moore (52:03):
Right now, there is nothing that we are aware of
that can melt ice on the scaleand for the amount of money that
salt costs. So there isn'treally like an alternative per
se. But what we have reallyworked on, and this is happening
(52:24):
at the state level as well as onin regional and local government
and lots of advocacyorganizations, is using the
right amount of salt in theright places at the right time.
So really, just trying toeducate the public, which is
hard because it's not reallythat hard like the information,
but it's just something to keeptrack of. And when we're not
(52:46):
applying salt all the time, mostpeople don't really want to
think about it. But really, justrecognizing what salt can do,
how much is needed, and what aresome practices that can be
adopted to actually reduce orcompletely eliminate the need to
use salt. Because yes, salt is avery, very significant pollutant
(53:10):
to our waterways in Minnesota,and we know that there's it's
very persistent. So once it'sthere, once it's in the water,
it is basically impossible toremove, and continues to
accumulate, and eventually willkill off what's living. We have
(53:31):
we live in a place withfreshwater ecosystems, so salt
water doesn't really work.
Anyway, so really trying to workon public awareness and
education is the focus rightnow, as well as looking for
opportunities, maybe forregulation when it's reasonable
to kind of hold applicatorsresponsible for the amount of
(53:58):
salt that they're using.
Dean Klinkenberg (54:02):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a little more difficult. I
mean, I will say, like part ofit seems like part of the longer
term solution is reducing cardependency, so you don't need to
salt as many roads. That wouldbe a good step in the right
direction. Our climate isdifferent here. We don't get the
cold that you do, or at leastnot for as long. So I had
reasonably good luck using sandon my sidewalk. If it's going to
(54:24):
be icy, at least it provides alittle bit of rough surface for
me, so I'm less likely to fall.
But it certainly doesn't meltanything. Like, so it's not a
substitute. Yeah. But yeah.
Abby Moore (54:35):
One thing like sand, but maybe a little bit better.
You could try it. We've beenhaving some success in the Twin
Cities with chicken grit, whichis just larger and more angular,
so it actually sometimes likekind of sinks into the ice or
the snow in a way that itcreates a pretty good traction
surface, and it's much easier tosweep up. You know, sand is fine
(54:59):
here and there, but it adds tothe sediment load in our
waterways when it gets washedaway and down storm drains. And
so, you know, we with salt, withsand, with grit, we ask that
folks go out and sweep it uponce it's done its job. But the
grit is a lot easier to sweep upthan anything else.
Dean Klinkenberg (55:18):
Yeah, there is that. Well, mindful of the time,
I think we probably need to goahead and call this one a wrap.
So, tell folks how they canlearn more about Sacred Water
Shared Future. Where's the bestplace for folks to go to learn
more about it?
Cassie Champion (55:34):
If you're interested, you could go to our
website, which issacredwatersharedfuture.org, and
if you go there, we've got somereally dramatic 1933 video
footage that corresponds to thequote that I read out of the
travel memoir. You'll see thebubbling methane gas. You'll see
the floating sludge mats. No,nobody captured the smell, and I
(55:58):
I think we can just all be happyabout that. But we've we've got
a few other videos describingand kind of sharing about the
campaign. And then, if if you'reinterested, go ahead and grab
one of our social mediagraphics, share it on your own
personal social media, yourorganization's social media.
We've got template newsletterarticles. If you publish a
(56:19):
newsletter, we'd be really happyto have you share our message
and grab that template, adapt itfor your audience, and feel free
to reach out to us as well. Ourorganizations and our contact
information is available throughthe website. So that's that's
our that's our planning hub, andwe're happy to welcome you to
it.
Dean Klinkenberg (56:39):
Great, and I don't know why every
metropolitan area wouldn't wantto do something similar. So
Cassie Champion (56:44):
Seriously, yeah, exactly.
Dean Klinkenberg (56:47):
Well, Cassie and Abby, thank you so much for
your time. This was terrific. Ireally appreciate the
conversation and sharing moreabout the history of the
Mississippi there and the andthe efforts to really improve
the water quality. It's such agood story, such an inspiring
story. I hope we can can spreadit far and wide, and that people
in the Twin Cities evenrecognize how how special it is.
(57:10):
Thank you for your time.
Abby Moore (57:11):
Thank you so much.
Thanks for helping us spread theword.
Cassie Champion (57:15):
Thanks for having us. This has been great.
Dean Klinkenberg (57:18):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes. I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon, you help keepthe program going, just go to
Patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the
(57:39):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guidebooks forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast is written and producedby me, Dean Klinkenberg.
Original music by Noah Fence.
See you next time.
Dean, that study essentially confirmed what
(00:03):
people already suspected, whichis at the time the Mississippi
River was essentially a deadecosystem. There's some really
vivid descriptive material bothbefore and after the study. Some
of the study results are thatthe dissolved oxygen was
essentially consumed, completelyunavailable, not a high enough
concentration to support fishlife, and in the study zone from
(00:28):
about Saint Paul to Red Wing,Minnesota, which is about 42
miles of river, they onlycollected three fish.
Dean Klinkenberg (00:59):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
Podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and
(01:19):
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
information on the Mississippiat
MississippiValleyTraveler.com.
Let's get going.
(01:40):
Welcome to episode 80 of theMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. Sometimes it's easy tooverlook the good, especially
when it happens over a long along time span, such as decades
or a couple of generations. Ithink that's the case with the
the state of the MississippiRiver in the Twin Cities
especially. A hundred yearsago, the Mississippi that ran
(02:02):
through Minneapolis and St. Paulwas essentially a dead river,
filled with sewage and detritus,fetid and unable to support life
at all. When you look at thatsame river today, it's hard to
imagine just how far gone theriver was in the 1920s. Over
time, though, folks in the TwinCities took a series of steps to
clean up the river and bring itback to life. And in this
(02:26):
episode, I talk with Abby Mooreand Cassie Champion, two of the
people involved with SacredWater Shared Future, a campaign
created to mark the 100-yearanniversary of the river's low
point and to spread the goodnews about the successive
efforts to restore theMississippi River's health.
So we talk about just how badthe river's world had become by
(02:46):
the 1920s and what nearly killedit. Abby and Cassie describe the
the gradual process undertakenby local folks to dramatically
slow the flow of contaminantsinto the river and to clean up
the mess it had become. We thenget into talking a little bit
about the goals behind SacredWater Shared Future, who's
involved, and the importance ofsharing success stories,
(03:09):
especially the ones that unfoldacross time.
We end our conversation bydiscussing ways we can continue
to build and maintain supportfor clean water initiatives, and
what other cities might be ableto learn from the success of the
Twin Cities. This isfundamentally a feel-good story,
a lesson that hope is neverentirely lost of what we can
(03:33):
ultimately succeed at when wejust make up our minds to do so.
So stick around and listen tothe interview, and feel free to
share your comments on what youthink about the messages in this
particular conversation.
Thanks to all of you whocontinue to show me support
through Patreon. For as littleas $1 a month, you can join this
(03:56):
Patreon community where you getearly access to every episode.
To join the Patreon community,go to
patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. IfPatreon's not your thing, hey,
buy me a coffee. I drink plentyof coffee, and I can use all the
help I can get supporting thatcaffeine habit. If you want to
know how to buy me a coffee, youcan go to
(04:16):
MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast,and you'll find instructions
there how to do so. And at thatsame place at
MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast,you'll find a list of all 79
previous episodes. Just click onany one of those episodes, such
as the the link for thisepisode, to find the show notes
(04:37):
and and see some picturesassociated with each of those
episodes.
All right, let's get on with theinterview. Well, I think today
is the first time I've beenlucky enough to have two guests
on the podcast at the same time.
So I'd like to welcome AbbyMoore and and Cassie Champion.
(05:00):
Abby Moore is the OutreachProgram Manager at the
Mississippi Watershed ManagementOrganization. She provides
program leadership, guidesstrategic initiatives, and
oversees outreach and engagementefforts for the organization.
Abby is particularly interestedin developing programs that
connect people with theMississippi River and foster
sustainable behavior across thewatershed. She's a former high
(05:22):
school science teacher and hasworked as an environmental
educator and program leader atvarious science and
environmental organizationsacross the country.
Cassandra Champion is thePrincipal Environmental
Scientist for Met CouncilEnvironmental Services,
coordinating the stream andtributary monitoring program.
(05:42):
Since 2021, she has facilitateda group of regional partners to
plan and launch the Sacred WaterShared Future campaign. Abby and
Cassie, welcome to the podcast.
Abby and Cassie (05:52):
Thank you so much for having us.
Dean Klinkenberg (05:55):
It seemed like the logical place to start for
the our discussion was to kindof look back in time. It seems
like the the 100th anniversaryof a milestone study seems to be
a motivating factor in formingthis organization as well. So
take us back to this 1926 studythat had a little bit to say
about the quality of the riverat that time. What did that
(06:17):
study reveal about theMississippi River and the Twin
Cities?
Cassie Champion (06:22):
Sure. Dean, That study essentially confirmed
what people already suspected,which is at the time the
Mississippi River wasessentially a dead ecosystem.
There's some really vividdescriptive material both before
and after the study. Some of thestudy results are that the
(06:42):
dissolved oxygen was essentiallyconsumed, completely
unavailable, not a high enoughconcentration to support fish
life, and in the study zone fromabout Saint Paul to Red Wing,
Minnesota, which is about 42miles of river, they only
collected three fish, and Idon't mean kinds, I mean three
(07:04):
actual fish, and the one of themwas a short-nosed gar in Spring
Lake, which is pretty close toHastings, Minnesota. That's Pool
Two. That fish was described asvery sluggish. So the the study
results were really just dismaland reflecting what the
conditions, as they were alreadyunderstood by people living near
(07:28):
the river.
Dean Klinkenberg (07:28):
What were the sources of pollution at that
Cassie Champion (07:34):
Yeah, I think that's kind of a an interesting
story. So I'm going to back usup in time a little bit, just to
time? Where were? Why was theriver in such bad shape?
point out that people have livedalong the Mississippi River in
this area of the MississippiRiver for 1000s of years, and
always been dependent on theriver. And what what really
started to change was afterabout 1860, the population just
(07:55):
grew and grew and grew and grewin a way that was ecologically
unprecedented in the life of theriver, and all of these people
living really, really closetogether, doing what people
always do. Get it? Did I mentionthat I work for the wastewater
(08:16):
utility of the Twin Cities? Justin case I didn't make that
clear, I do. That. That thatincrease in population and the
the fundamentally untreated,unmanaged sewage was the biggest
initial factor. So, if I can, Iwould like to read just a short
(08:36):
excerpt of of an editorial fromthe Minneapolis Tribune from
1877. So people were reallyunderstanding the the the
desperate public healthsituation that was caused just
by this many people simplyliving together as humans with
normal bodily functions. So, soagain, this is from 1877, the
(08:59):
Minneapolis Tribune. "It is awell-settled fact among
scientists that all otherprovisions for the health and
comfort of a city aresubordinate to the one vital
desideratum of adequatesewerage." And I like how they
(09:19):
use a little Latin to get theirpoint across that the sewer, a
network of sewers to collectthis human sewage, is the most
critical necessity for a city tobe healthy, and it was. And by
1900, there were 120 miles ofsewer in the Twin Cities
carrying waste from homes andbusinesses directly into the
(09:40):
Mississippi River, so that'skind of step one and two is
population growth and thedevelopment of the sewer
network.
Dean Klinkenberg (09:49):
And I think at the time the the attitude
probably toward the the sewagewas the the solution to
pollution is dilution. Wasn'tthat the prevailing mindset?
Cassie Champion (09:58):
Yep, and the the river, of course, that. This
point, 1900 was still completelywild and free, and a big,
reliable annual spring floodcould be counted on to mostly
wash the pollution awaydownstream. So there's there's
the not just dilution as thesolution to pollution, but
always live upstream.
Dean Klinkenberg (10:17):
Unfortunately, not all of us get to live
upstream, right?
Cassie Champion (10:20):
Right.
Dean Klinkenberg (10:21):
I'm in St.
Louis, and I'm downstream ofChicago's waste. So we have our
own issues. What the the thefact that so much sewage and
pollution got dumped into theMississippi at that time and for
a generation at least. What whatdoes that tell us about people's
attitudes toward rivers duringthat time period?
Cassie Champion (10:46):
I think rivers really were considered. There's
no other word than sewer. Partof the function of having a
river in your city was that itwould remove the waste from your
city, and that was sort ofunderstood for a long time. And
I'm I'm not a legal historian,so I'm not going to try to
explain how that changed. Buthere in the Twin Cities, the the
(11:06):
next biggest change, besides thedevelopment of the sewer
network, was kind of the buildout of of our our river commerce
network, primarily the lock anddam system. So that the the
first Lock and Dam No. 1, thefirst one on the Mississippi
River was built in Saint Paul.
We call it the Ford Dam up here,and that was completed in 1917.
And so there's the first momentwhere our wild and free river
(11:28):
now has become a still steppedpool. That's what the lock and
dams have done. They've chainedthe wild and free flowing river
to still stepped pools, holdingthe water in place, but then
also holding the sewage inplace. So that's really kind of
the final tipping point towardsthe real ecological devastation
(11:49):
in the Twin Cities region.
And if it's if it's okay, I wantto read one more quote from a
travel memoir from 1933. Youmight be familiar with Clarence
Jonk. He built his own homemadehouseboat and launched it in
Minneapolis and intended tonavigate to New Orleans, of
(12:12):
course, in 1933. But made itactually to Winona, which is not
very far. That's still inMinnesota. But I just want to
read you this description heleft of his launch point in
Minneapolis. So again, Octoberof 1933. "The houseboat has been
lowered into the sewage-ladenwater, where fish die, float,
(12:35):
and turn idly about in theeddies, showing their
worm-infested bodies like acurse to the men who infected
their world. Continuously, theirwhite mouths nudged the manure
of humanity, the offwash of thestreets and gutters, and here,
curling under our starboardside, a brown foam, bubbles and
(12:59):
steams. Such as our baptism intothe great river."
Dean Klinkenberg (13:06):
That's a ringing endorsement of water
quality in that time. I'msurprised he felt comfortable
getting in a boat anywhere nearthat that that water at that
time. You know, I'd be a littlenervous about it.
Cassie Champion (13:17):
Yeah, he describes them as pushing as
fast as they could for cleanerwaters.
Dean Klinkenberg (13:23):
So, tell me a little bit more about what
really began to bend the curvethen on water quality in the
Mississippi. I think the lock,as I understand it, the locks
and dams were part of theimpetus for that because it, as
you said, it trapped all thissewage behind it, and it made
this made the pollution thatmuch more obvious and
(13:43):
unbearable. I heard some reallyhorrific stories from South St.
Paul, across from thestockyards, and the quality of
the water there, especiallyafter the dam was built
downstream. So, so tell us alittle bit about sort of the arc
of how people began to recognizethis is not really a good idea,
and the step, the initial stepspeople took to clean it up.
Cassie Champion (14:03):
Yeah, so this is really kind of leading to
1933 when Minnesota formed theMinneapolis Saint Paul sewerage
district, and the point was tocollect the sewage and move it
as far downstream as possible,where it can be treated and
(14:24):
where the plant effluent can bedisinfected, and so that's the
the earliest description of theplans for Metropolitan Water
Resource Recovery Facility,which that's where I work. It's
the oldest and largestwastewater treatment plant on
the Mississippi River. It cameonline with primary treatment
only in 1938, and thedescriptions of the river is
(14:46):
that the floating sludge matscleared up within four months of
plant beginning operation.
Dean Klinkenberg (14:53):
A good band name, floating sludge mats. You
know.
Cassie Champion (14:59):
Good idea.
Dean Klinkenberg (15:01):
Wow! Within four months, so really, it was,
it didn't take that much tobegin to really clean things up.
Cassie Champion (15:08):
Yeah, really, giving the river space to clean
itself up. A wastewatertreatment plant is is
essentially accelerating naturalprocesses that would be
happening anyway, just at a muchbigger scale and a much faster
scale, in a way that the rivercan tolerate.
Dean Klinkenberg (15:24):
There have been probably a lot of fairly
incremental steps since then.
Maybe the biggest force changewas the Clean Water Act that
really improved water quality inrivers and lakes across the
country. Kind of like take usnow to the present. Like, how's
the river in the Twin Citiesdoing today?
Abby Moore (15:47):
I don't have data to share, so Cassie, chime in if
you'd like. But I know it'sdoing well compared to how it
was 100 years ago, for sure.
Like the water quality hasimproved pretty significantly.
The a lot of the ecosystems thatwere destroyed are sort of back
and functional. We've gotterrestrial and aquatic
(16:07):
ecosystems that are dependent onthe river, that are healthy and
thriving, and there's a hugeamount of effort by lots of
overlapping jurisdictions,particularly in the Twin Cities
metro area, to continue toprotect and improve water
quality and habitat, and youknow, generally like recognize
(16:28):
the importance of all the thingsthat we get from living next to
the river. I mean, the river isthe lifeblood of the Twin
Cities, and we are here becauseof it. And you know the
generally the feelings of a lotof residents towards the river
have really changed over time. Ithink your question earlier
(16:50):
about how does the fact that itgot so polluted reflect people's
feelings about the river andsort of how it exists and why
it's there, and it was reallydifferent 100 years ago for lots
of reasons. I mean, thepopulation in the in Minneapolis
itself grew really, really fastaround the development of the
(17:12):
mills, and so suddenly there'sall sorts of people setting up
shop and using the river forlots of things, looking at a
looking at it as a resource tobe used, and not thinking as
much about the fact that youhave to also care for something
(17:32):
that's sustaining yourlivelihood and your life. So I
think that that attitude hasshifted quite a bit.
Dean Klinkenberg (17:44):
It's been a long time since there's been a
floating sludge mat. So everytime I go up to the Twin Cities,
I am envious of the amount ofpublic space along the river and
throughout. You know, basicallyfrom the suburbs in the
northwest all the way down tothe suburbs in the southeast,
the the amount of the ease withwhich people can get next to the
(18:07):
river makes me jealous becausein St. Louis, it's much harder
lift to get anywhere close tothe river, especially in the
city. So it seems like that'spart of what probably plays in
your favor when it comes toreally pushing for water, you
know, protecting water quality.
Now, is there's really highpublic engagement with the
(18:28):
Mississippi now? Apparently, youcan even rent a hot tub now and
float down the river.
Cassie Champion (18:34):
Very excited to try that. I haven't done it yet,
but I can't wait.
Dean Klinkenberg (18:38):
So, what is where where is the the gap then,
or the need that Sacred WaterShared Future is trying to
address within this this thisworld where things, from an
outsider's perspective, looklike they're going pretty well,
especially compared to othercities.
Cassie Champion (18:54):
Yeah, I like that question a lot because what
the story that we just sharedwith you about the the pollution
and cleanup of the river isreally not well known in the
Twin Cities to residents. If ifAbby or I are out doing some
kind of engagement work and askthe question, is the Mississippi
(19:14):
River cleaner now than it was100 years ago? The answer,
almost across the board is theriver is dirtier now than it's
ever been, and it's just gettingdirtier. So this this really
dire, you know, ecologicaldestruction. The the story of it
is just completely lost. Likethey did such a good job solving
(19:35):
the problem that regionally weforgot there ever was a problem,
and that they ever solved it. Sothat's part of what Sacred Water
Shared Future is about (19:41):
is about sharing this story, but not just
only for the sake of knowing alittle tidbit of our really
important regional history, butalso as an inspiration, because
the Mississippi River stillneeds enormous amounts of public
investment and protection. Andhas is facing really complicated
(20:03):
existential problems, and thenthis story can be an inspiration
of look how complicated thatproblem was. Look what they had
to do to solve it. They didthat, and we can use that as a
model and an inspiration togoing forward to address the
problems that we're facing inthe present time.
Abby Moore (20:23):
Yeah, I would. One of the things, just to kind of
add on to that, I think aboutwith environmental degradation
in general. It feels very oftenall doom and gloom, and there's
a lot of big problems, and it isa lot. There's a lot of scary
stuff going on to as far asenvironmental degradation, but
(20:46):
it's important to illustrate forpeople how the ways that regular
people participate in effortsthat lead to change, and because
I think because we hear a lot ofthe doom and gloom and it feels
really really big, it's easy tojust be like, there's nothing I
can do. Like I and and alongwith that, I think particularly
(21:10):
with yes, the institution of thewastewater treatment plant and
then the Clean Water Act,demonstrating how policy does
lead to change because I thinkyou know there's often such an
100 years is more than mostlifespans, but it's still
attitude about regulatorythings, like impeding on
people's livelihoods and so on.
But the result that we get fromin from implementing those
(21:33):
regulations is benefits us all.
And I think really being able topoint to the specifics of how
federal policy and state andregional policy have brought us
here to this place of having amuch cleaner river is helpful to
understand how those big kind ofsweeping bits of legislation
(21:57):
actually really make adifference, and that that's also
how we can make these kind ofreally big shifts.
(22:21):
something you can think about,and I think all the time about
like my family. I come from along line of St. Paul residents.
My my mom and my grandma and herparents all grew up in St. Paul,
and so they were around for allof this, and that feels
manageable to me to sort ofthink about, and so recognizing
(22:42):
the amount of improvement thatwe've experienced in that short
time is, as Cassie said,inspiring and is motivating to
continue the effort andrecognize that even if we don't
feel powerful as individuals, ifenough of us get together, we
can make pretty big change.
Dean Klinkenberg (23:03):
I think it is an inspiring story on so many
levels, in part because thechanges are so dramatic in water
quality when you look back. SoI'm curious, though, you raise
my curiosity with this. Whenwhen when people tell you they
think the water quality is worsenow than it was before, what
what do they identify asproblems? What what is driving
that perception that the riveris not doing so well today?
Abby Moore (23:28):
I mean, people just assume that it's very polluted.
I think there's some of it isbased on just the fact that
we're a big city on a river.
People make the assumption. Ican say from my personal
experience, having grown up withmy mom, who came from St. Paul
and grew up right along theriver, very close to where I
grew up, she grew up before theClean Water Act, and her reality
(23:53):
was that the river wasdisgusting and it was so smelly
that you didn't want to even benear it, and and people didn't
engage with the river when I wasgrowing up the way they do now.
We did not have the parkinfrastructure and public access
developed that exists now, andso I grew up in a time when it
(24:16):
was getting better and better,but that was not my perception.
My mom told me it was really,really dirty and terrible, and I
grew up in fear of ever evenlike touching the water. So I
think there's a lot of justhistorical momentum on the river
being dirty or polluted, and soand and I guess you know Cassie
(24:40):
and I both work fororganizations who are trying to
get the word out to the world.
Like we've made a lot ofimprovement, and we should all
be proud of ourselves. And youshould enjoy the river, but it's
still taking a while to kind ofget that to permeate through
(25:01):
various cultures. And I thinkthere's also people who come
from all over the country andall over the world who live here
and have their own experiencewith rivers that they're just
translating to ours.
Dean Klinkenberg (25:13):
Right. Well, like having been lucky enough to
travel to a lot of places, Imean, the Mississippi and the
Twin Cities is far cleaner thanmost of the rivers I've been to
in other parts of the world,even in Europe. So it's it's
helped it's helpful maybe spreadthat message far and wide. And I
imagine if you're an olderperson who grew up with that
memories of you know the riverbeing this stinky, dangerous
(25:35):
place to go, it's really hard toshake that that image. And maybe
some of that gets passed on tothe kids as well, but partly
what I'm hearing is that there'sthere really isn't a rational
sort of basis for it. The riverwater quality is is pretty darn
good these days, though thereare still some threats. So take
tell us then about Sacred WaterShared Future. What is the
(25:56):
organization? Who's involved?
What do you want to do?
Cassie Champion (26:01):
Yeah, we're not really an organization. That's a
very strong word. We are a loosepartnership. So what what we did
we came together starting in2021 was with the idea that this
2026 anniversary of thislandmark study is coming up, and
it's a great opportunity toreally focus some regional
(26:24):
attention on the river, getpeople to understand a little
bit about the historicalcontext, and also really just
find their own personalconnection. And so we wanted to
do that by creating a reallyengaging kind of for a long
time, we called it an umbrella.
Now we just call it our brand,Sacred Water Shared Future. That
name, the logo, the tagline-thatwas our first three years of
(26:48):
work. Was coming to that anddoing a little bit of
fundraising among the planningpartners to build something that
would be really broadlyengaging, and that a lot of
organizations would be able tosee themselves fitting into and
contributing to. So the theplanning partners were primarily
government and nonprofitorganizations in the Twin Cities
(27:11):
who are interested in theMississippi River. And once once
we got the campaign, the brandsettled, and the campaign
website launched.by late 2025,we really have been doing our
best to spread the word to asmany organizations as we can
reach, to engage them, toencourage them to plan events,
(27:34):
to reach out to their ownaudiences, to really broadly
reach as many people in as manyways as possible to highlight
our connections to theMississippi River. However, we
can.
Dean Klinkenberg (27:52):
How's it going? What have you seen? Have
you seen? Have you been aroundlong enough yet to really see
some concrete results from that?
And if so, tell me about it.
Abby Moore (28:02):
From the campaign itself?
Dean Klinkenberg (28:04):
Yeah.
Abby Moore (28:05):
So I actually should have checked the number, but I
think we're close to 120 eventsregistered in the Sacred Water
Shared Future calendar, and andwe've really we we built this
whole thing with the assumptionand correct one that
organizations would be excitedto participate in this campaign,
(28:30):
mostly by leveraging activities,events that they would be having
anyway along the river to learnabout the river and celebration
of the river, whatever, and thenthey connect it to the campaign
to help raise awareness, andalso help get the word out to a
broader audience that theirevent is happening. So we've
(28:51):
seen a lot of great engagement,participation events. Folks
have, so on our website we havemedia resources, so
organizations can put stuff intheir newsletters. We've seen
people do that, or organizationsdo that, I should say. Use our
(29:12):
social media graphics. You know,just really trying to push push
it out there as much aspossible. And so, seeing all
different kinds of organizationsjump on board, and the one thing
that we spend a lot of timeclarifying is that Sacred Water
Shared Future is not actually anorganization. We don't even have
(29:33):
any staff. We don't have a anoffice or even an email address.
We're really just a bunch oforganizations partnering on
trying to get the word out aboutthis important anniversary, and
hopefully help magnify thatmessage that we've made a lot of
(29:54):
progress. And we also need tostay committed because the the
work that we've done is what haspaid off, but we can't take our
eyes off the prize.
Cassie Champion (30:05):
Maybe just a couple examples of some of our
fun events. I hope yourlisteners would like to know
that in Minneapolis we have afestival the last two weeks of
January, first two weeks ofFebruary, called Art Shanties.
So an art art shanty that's playon ice shanty, which is
basically an ice fishing house.
Only these are artist designed,artist created this kind of
(30:26):
experiential out on a frozenlake. You just walk around, and
some of them are puppets, someare music, some are visual art.
We had a Sacred Water SharedFuture art shanty. So the the
outside was decorated kind of tolook like the murky, dirty 1920s
(30:46):
1930s river with bubbles ofmethane gas and just the muddy
color. And then you open thedoor and you're inside, and
there and it looked like cleanblue water and fish and plants.
Then people could learn aboutthe history of the river. We had
actual art activity that theycould contribute to. That's that
(31:07):
is something that's going to beongoing all year, and we'll
produce like a really largeinstallation. So that was that
was our first. That was ourkickoff event. That's a pretty
fun one because that's sort ofunique to the Twin Cities that
we do stuff on top of our lakesin the winter, and coming up,
one of maybe one of our biggestevents will be the Minnesota
State Fair, which is a real bigdeal up here. There's a whole
(31:29):
building called the EcoExperience, and the the theme
for this year is Sacred WaterShared Future. So there will be
a big Mississippi River kind ofart and history installation.
I'm not privy to the design ofit, other than to know that it's
going to be something supercool. So I'm just as excited as
anybody else to see it. But andso those are some of the bigger
(31:53):
ones. There have been paddlingevents, other kinds of
storytelling, story collectionevents, as many different kinds
of ways as organizations canthink of creating events that
would connect people to theriver. We're we're seeing those
show up on our calendar.
Dean Klinkenberg (32:12):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here interrupting
myself. Just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guidebooks for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also wrote
'The Wild Mississippi,' a guidethat goes deep into the complex
(32:32):
ecosystems supported by theMississippi, the plant and
animal life that depends onthem, and where you can go to
experience it all. If you likefiction, check out my Frank
Dodge mystery series. Each bookis set in places along the
Mississippi River. My newestbook is a travel memoir called
Slowboats, Chicken Busses, andthe Radical Choice to Trust the
(32:53):
World.' The book explores a
simple question (32:57):
What happens when you stop asking "What if
something goes wrong?" and startasking, "What if everything goes
right?" Find out more atdeanklinkenberg.com/bettersafethansorry.
Well, I may have to try to getback up there for the state
fair. I've been a couple timesin the past.
Cassie Champion (33:19):
You do totally have to get up here for the
state fair.
Dean Klinkenberg (33:21):
Yeah, but that that provides a little extra
motivation for me to get upthere maybe again this year. One
of the things that I think isoften a struggle when we talk
about increasing engagement withthe river and getting people to
the river more is that the theriver often has multiple uses.
There's multiple demands on theriver. So can you speak to a
(33:43):
little bit how that plays out inthe Twin Cities? Like, who are
some of the different let's callthem interests or whatever? What
are the different kinds of usesthat are at play, and is there
how much competition orcooperation is there amongst
those different kinds of uses?
Abby Moore (34:00):
I can speak a little bit to the upstream of the most
the the lock and dam in downtownMinneapolis that was the lock
was closed in 2015, mostlybecause shipping traffic had
basically died off, but also toprevent the migration of
(34:21):
invasive carp up into the upperparts of the river. At this
point, in this upper section ofthe river, at least through the
Twin Cities, I mean, there'scertainly multiple demands on
it. Like we get our water, ourdrinking water for both
Minneapolis and St. Paul comesfrom this upper stretch of the
river. There's recreationaltraffic. There's stormwater
(34:43):
drainage and that sort of thing,but it's relatively quiet up
here, and it's there's asignificant difference even once
you get down into like downtownSt. Paul and stuff where the
barge traffic starts picking upat the port of St. Paul. And
that's as as high up on theriver as barges go now, and so.
(35:06):
But up here, we're lucky in alot of ways that we can really
focus on building the publicaccess and really work on
connecting people to the riverbecause they can get right up
next to it and it's relativelysafe. I should obviously caveat
(35:28):
that we don't recommend peopleswim in the river because of
currents and crazy changingbottoms and all that kind of
stuff. But in general, likebeing next to the river is
pretty safe, and being in akayak or a small boat is also
relatively safe because there'sjust not a lot of stuff out
there to be competing forshipping lanes and things like
(35:49):
that. So we're really lucky inthat way that we can focus more
on the connecting and enjoyingthe river and benefiting from
our drinking water source, Idon't know. Do you want to talk
about anything downstream,Cassie? Once the barges come in
Cassie Champion (36:08):
Yeah, I was just thinking about the and the
University of Minnesota rowingcrew has their crew house on the
river, so that's kind of aunique thing. There's a there's
also a crew house in St. Paul. Idon't know how to think of that
in terms of competition. Likethere, you know, it's a big
river. There's houseboats.
There's fishing boats. There'sfishing piers. There's, it's all
there. Like you can kind of getto know the river any way you
(36:34):
want to. There's historic NativeAmerican sites to see in
downtown St. Paul, there's allall of the possible airport, all
of the possible ways ofconnecting with the river, kind
of condensed just just in ourlittle region.
Abby Moore (36:51):
I will say that I'm always really amazed when I
because I'm so familiar with theriver in the Twin Cities, and
particularly the stretch ofMinneapolis upstream of the
closed lock. I am amazed when Igo to like St. Louis or some of
the bigger cities that aredownstream from us. Just how big
(37:12):
the river is and how much isgoing on. We just don't have
that here.
Dean Klinkenberg (37:18):
Right.
Abby Moore (37:18):
Yeah. the The river here is a gorge. So if that's
another thing that's special,it's the only gorge on the
Mississippi River. So, insteadof the the wide flat water that
you see further south, we've gotsteep cliff cliff sides on
either side of our river formuch of the stretch of the Twin
Cities.
Dean Klinkenberg (37:37):
Yeah, and I don't think there are many parts
of the Mississippi where you'dbe able to like successfully
have the rent a kayak stations,you know, where people can put
in at one place and then ridedown to a few miles down to to
take out. And now, of course,you can have a floating hot tub
you can rent and see how thatgoes. I may have to try that one
of these days. You occasionallyhave tour boats, you know,
(38:01):
steamboat replicas that'll beyou know around, but not none of
the heavy traffic until downtownSt. Paul. Yeah, although there
is a lot of recreationaltraffic, especially beginning
around St. Paul, the boats get alittle bigger. There are more
marinas, so you have I guessthey're they're conflicting uses
in a sense that you have youknow some of those users need
(38:21):
slightly different kinds ofriver, and they probably have
advocate for the river to be aparticular way, so they can take
their bigger boats out, or sothe tour boats can can do their
tours, or or those kinds ofthings.
Abby Moore (38:35):
Yeah.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:36):
But there's not much in the way of really
substantial flood risk either,because most of you know most of
the areas that would be affectedby high water are not inhabited
at this point.
Abby Moore (38:46):
Right. Right. Yeah, that's some changes from the
early 20th century. Yep.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:51):
No Bohemia Flats anymore.
Cassie Champion (38:53):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:57):
So when you're there is sort of like a big
decision coming up soon, and Idon't know how involved you are
with this, but there is sort ofthis ongoing study with the
Corps of Engineers about what todo with the decommissioned locks
and dams. Do you do you have anyany thoughts on that process, or
(39:17):
any any sense about where thatcould be headed, or what
possibilities excite you?
Abby Moore (39:24):
I don't I don't know. I mean, honestly, there's
it's it's really cool to thinkabout the restoration of a free
flowing river through a part ofour area, and just the potential
to restore some more of thenatural ecology of the area, and
also be able to just experiencethe river in a slightly more
(39:46):
dynamic way. I think can alsoconnect people to it
differently. There's certainly alot of interests, though, who
care a lot about maintaining asteady river level for the
things that they use the waterfor and or the river for. My
organization hasn't reallyweighed in on this yet. I think
(40:08):
we're kind of waiting to seewhat happens. You know, we're
always interested in the waterquality implications and what
kinds of work we can and shouldbe doing to make sure that we're
maintaining and improving waterquality in the river, and so I
think we're we're waiting to seewhat happens. But it's really
(40:31):
interesting to hear theconversations and hear kind of
the interests on both ends andthink about what the
implications are of a free-it'sa slightly free-flowing river
flowing through a majormetropolitan area, just because
of the need, because of theinfrastructure, the need to sort
(40:52):
of feel like there's some levelof control or predictability
about what it's going to do.
Dean Klinkenberg (40:59):
Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't mind, you know,
mentioning some of the theinterests here. I mean, I have a
friend who's part of the rowingclub, and I know they've been
very adamant in wanting tomaintain the river as for them
because they've grown accustomedto having that available, that
access, which is kind of, whichwould be probably would go away
if the other vision was enactedthat would have a more
(41:20):
free-flowing river. I'm kind ofcurious. Like the other, it
seems like the other factor inthis that is important, though,
is the issues around maybe waterquality or drinking water. That
can you just sort of fill me inon the where where where are the
pipes or the the stations thatpull water from the Mississippi,
(41:41):
and how might that be impactedby more free-flowing Mississippi
if the dams were removed?
Abby Moore (41:48):
So the intake for both St. Paul and Minneapolis
are up north of Minneapolis onthe river. There is a dam that
would be maintained in order tomaintain the water level
necessary to ensure deep enoughwater to pull what's needed for
(42:09):
those two cities. So, the damsthat they're talking about
removing, neither one of themwould impact Minneapolis or St.
Paul's water intake. So, yeah, Idon't actually think there's an
intake in this section. Whateverthat Pool 1 and 2 would it be,
Cassie, that would be combined?
Cassie Champion (42:31):
Yeah, that's right.
Abby Moore (42:33):
I don't think that I'm aware of any water intake on
that section that would beimpacted. So that's obviously a
really significant concern, andbecause we rely on river water,
I guess it's lucky that we haveenough dams that we can think
about how to maintain one andtake a few out, and still, you
know, enjoy the predictabilityof a water level that's high
(42:56):
enough to supply our drinkingwater and a section of river
that's more more free flowing.
Dean Klinkenberg (43:02):
Yeah, that so that's yeah for people who are
unfamiliar with that part of theriver. It's the Upper Saint
Anthony Lock and Dam. That damis not going to be removed. That
one is the one that's essentialto maintaining the water level
for the intake. And so it's theLower Saint Anthony Falls Lock
and Dam, and then the Ford Damor Lock and Dam One, that are
being considered for removal. Ihave a wastewater question. I
(43:27):
think so.
Cassie Champion (43:28):
I'll do my best.
Dean Klinkenberg (43:31):
I know there there's I think there are even
some federal mandates aroundthis. That there we're we're at
a period of time now wherethere's a movement to try to
separate storm runoff fromsewage runoff is that right? Can
you speak a little bit to howthat's playing out in your area
and what the challenges ofexecuting that are?
Cassie Champion (43:53):
Yeah, that's that's another really important
piece of Twin Cities waterhistory is that sewer separation
was largely completed by theearly '90s. So obviously an an
enormous amount of publiceffort, public investment,
public coordination to ensurethat that happened. But largely
(44:15):
in the Twin Cities, thestormwater goes to some
receiving water body and thesewer, the the sewage is going
through pipes to a wastewatertreatment plant. We don't we
don't have sewer overflows inthe Twin Cities. We just don't
have them.
Dean Klinkenberg (44:33):
How did that happen so early?
Cassie Champion (44:35):
They that's that was just a I can't speak as
well as a historian would, butthat was just a really high
priority soon after the CleanWater Act.
Dean Klinkenberg (44:47):
All right. So I know I know here in St. Louis
we're still struggling withthat, and we have a big project
underway to to bore tunnelsunderground for stormwater
runoff, but it's expensive. It'svery expensive in existing
cities to pull this off. That'spart of the challenge. I know my
water bill is about to double,and it's not just because of
(45:08):
that, but also because we're anold city. We have old pipes that
need to be replaced. All ofthat, of course, affects water
quality. All of all that runoff,you know, ends up in the
Mississippi, and we do haveperiods after heavy rain where
we have untreated sewage thatends up dumping into the
Mississippi. Does that so thatdoesn't happen in in the Twin
(45:30):
Cities?
Cassie Champion (45:31):
We don't do that here. Darn it! No beach
closures. No nothing.
Abby Moore (45:37):
One thing I think that this is illustrating too is
that the state and the localgovernments in Minnesota we take
we take water seriously and likekeeping our a lot of our
identity is water here, and sothe river is just one of tons of
(45:57):
bodies of water that are beingactively protected by lots of
different layers of governmentand advocacy groups and that
sort of thing. And so, anyway, Ithink the effort to do that
combined sewer separation early.
I mean, it still happened youknow, 20 years or so after the
(46:19):
implementation of the CleanWater Act, but they got on it
right away, and yeah. So for along time now, we've had
separated sewers, which yes, I'msure has made a really
significant difference in thewater quality of our section of
river.
Dean Klinkenberg (46:38):
So, in in your experience, then, like, what
sort of messages seem to beespecially persuasive when you
talk with folks about themechanisms to improve water
quality or valuing the qualityof water, the river quality,
water quality in the river?
Abby Moore (46:58):
A lot of times, I it's helpful, you know, when I
have the opportunity to actuallylike have interactions with
people about water quality andprotecting water quality, to
find some sort of common groundabout why water is important to
us, or at least acknowledge thatit's important. We don't have to
have the same reasons. I thinkyou know different folks have
different values around waterand the things that they like to
(47:22):
do. There's a lot of people whofish, for instance, on our
section of the river. But thismessaging certainly goes across
the state, where there's a lotof people who like to fish and
swim and have experiences goingto lakes and stuff around the
country or around the state forvacations, and so right there,
(47:45):
that sort of connection withwater can be helpful for kind of
a ground, common ground aboutwhy it's important to protect
it.
And then the other piece that Ithink can be really like helpful
for folks to think about is thefact that our drinking water
comes from the river, and thatwe have really, really high
quality drinking water here, butthat comes with a lot of effort
(48:09):
to protect water quality. Soafter that, I think really just
helping people understand whatit is that creates water quality
problems in our section of riverand in the Twin Cities Metro,
like one of the mostsignificant, if not the most
significant, source ofstormwater pollution here is
from landscaping debris breakingdown leaves and grass clippings
(48:33):
and sticks and things like that,and so recognizing that is
actually like a pretty easysolve. Like if we pay attention
to the way that we take care ofour yards and dispose of or
secure that landscaping debris,that can make a big difference.
(48:55):
Little things like plantingdeep-rooted native plants
instead of turf grass everywheremakes a difference.
So really helping people justunderstand some of the basic
mechanisms for how the rivergets polluted, and some of the
really low-hanging fruit.
Picking up dog poop, throwingtrash in a garbage can you know,
things like that make a bigdifference. And so by adopting
those behaviors ourselves andencouraging communities that we
(49:19):
exist in to do the same. That'show we can make a really big
difference. I also always thinkit's really great to highlight
those communities on a smallscale who are doing things that
are really impactful, reducingtheir salt use as a like a
homeowners association who'sworking hard to reduce their
(49:40):
salt use, or high school campusthat's overhauled a lot of their
landscaping to include morenative plants, or things like
that that are really accessibleand help people understand how
they can be involved inprotecting water quality.
Cassie Champion (50:01):
I'll just add on, talking to people about
built water infrastructure, likeexplaining that because it's
really it's pretty invisible,and it's not the the built water
cycle is just not as wellunderstood as the natural water
cycle, but they're not separatefrom each other. So that's a
(50:21):
message that I share wherever Ican. Like, how does the water
that comes out of a cloud getinto your shower? Kind of those
the the way we get drinkingwater into our homes and
businesses, and then where doesit go after we use it? That's a
critical part of the water cycleand understanding our
connectedness to water, and it'sa it's a huge amount of what we
(50:45):
pay for in terms of ourconnectedness to water. So the
public needs to understand whyit matters, why they're using
it, and why we spend so muchmoney doing this.
Dean Klinkenberg (50:58):
That's good. I kind of feel like sometimes
people have lost touch withwhere so many of things come
from, like you know where thewater comes from in our homes,
but also like eggs come from thegrocery store, right? Like we're
not always in tune with thewhole life cycle of where this
these things come from. Yeah,I'm also like a huge fan of
helping individuals findsomething they can do that isn't
(51:22):
just a token effort, butactually is a step in in
improving the water quality ofthe world around them. That's
why I like the idea of thenative plantings. Yeah, we just
redid our backyard here lastyear with native plants, and I'm
having a lot of fun this summerwatching it take over and trying
to figure out what to plantnext. But it also made me
wonder. Like, given yourwinters, like salt, road salt,
(51:46):
and ice salt for sidewalks, andall has to be a major threat to
water quality, but also to thepotential pollution of the
ground. What are thealternatives that you are
advocating for now instead ofusing salt?
Abby Moore (52:03):
Right now, there is nothing that we are aware of
that can melt ice on the scaleand for the amount of money that
salt costs. So there isn'treally like an alternative per
se. But what we have reallyworked on, and this is happening
(52:24):
at the state level as well as onin regional and local government
and lots of advocacyorganizations, is using the
right amount of salt in theright places at the right time.
So really, just trying toeducate the public, which is
hard because it's not reallythat hard like the information,
but it's just something to keeptrack of. And when we're not
(52:46):
applying salt all the time, mostpeople don't really want to
think about it. But really, justrecognizing what salt can do,
how much is needed, and what aresome practices that can be
adopted to actually reduce orcompletely eliminate the need to
use salt. Because yes, salt is avery, very significant pollutant
(53:10):
to our waterways in Minnesota,and we know that there's it's
very persistent. So once it'sthere, once it's in the water,
it is basically impossible toremove, and continues to
accumulate, and eventually willkill off what's living. We have
(53:31):
we live in a place withfreshwater ecosystems, so salt
water doesn't really work.
Anyway, so really trying to workon public awareness and
education is the focus rightnow, as well as looking for
opportunities, maybe forregulation when it's reasonable
to kind of hold applicatorsresponsible for the amount of
(53:58):
salt that they're using.
Dean Klinkenberg (54:02):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a little more difficult. I
mean, I will say, like part ofit seems like part of the longer
term solution is reducing cardependency, so you don't need to
salt as many roads. That wouldbe a good step in the right
direction. Our climate isdifferent here. We don't get the
cold that you do, or at leastnot for as long. So I had
reasonably good luck using sandon my sidewalk. If it's going to
(54:24):
be icy, at least it provides alittle bit of rough surface for
me, so I'm less likely to fall.
But it certainly doesn't meltanything. Like, so it's not a
substitute. Yeah. But yeah.
Abby Moore (54:35):
One thing like sand, but maybe a little bit better.
You could try it. We've beenhaving some success in the Twin
Cities with chicken grit, whichis just larger and more angular,
so it actually sometimes likekind of sinks into the ice or
the snow in a way that itcreates a pretty good traction
surface, and it's much easier tosweep up. You know, sand is fine
(54:59):
here and there, but it adds tothe sediment load in our
waterways when it gets washedaway and down storm drains. And
so, you know, we with salt, withsand, with grit, we ask that
folks go out and sweep it uponce it's done its job. But the
grit is a lot easier to sweep upthan anything else.
Dean Klinkenberg (55:18):
Yeah, there is that. Well, mindful of the time,
I think we probably need to goahead and call this one a wrap.
So, tell folks how they canlearn more about Sacred Water
Shared Future. Where's the bestplace for folks to go to learn
more about it?
Cassie Champion (55:34):
If you're interested, you could go to our
website, which issacredwatersharedfuture.org, and
if you go there, we've got somereally dramatic 1933 video
footage that corresponds to thequote that I read out of the
travel memoir. You'll see thebubbling methane gas. You'll see
the floating sludge mats. No,nobody captured the smell, and I
(55:58):
I think we can just all be happyabout that. But we've we've got
a few other videos describingand kind of sharing about the
campaign. And then, if if you'reinterested, go ahead and grab
one of our social mediagraphics, share it on your own
personal social media, yourorganization's social media.
We've got template newsletterarticles. If you publish a
(56:19):
newsletter, we'd be really happyto have you share our message
and grab that template, adapt itfor your audience, and feel free
to reach out to us as well. Ourorganizations and our contact
information is available throughthe website. So that's that's
our that's our planning hub, andwe're happy to welcome you to
it.
Dean Klinkenberg (56:39):
Great, and I don't know why every
metropolitan area wouldn't wantto do something similar. So
Cassie Champion (56:44):
Seriously, yeah, exactly.
Dean Klinkenberg (56:47):
Well, Cassie and Abby, thank you so much for
your time. This was terrific. Ireally appreciate the
conversation and sharing moreabout the history of the
Mississippi there and the andthe efforts to really improve
the water quality. It's such agood story, such an inspiring
story. I hope we can can spreadit far and wide, and that people
in the Twin Cities evenrecognize how how special it is.
(57:10):
Thank you for your time.
Abby Moore (57:11):
Thank you so much.
Thanks for helping us spread theword.
Cassie Champion (57:15):
Thanks for having us. This has been great.
Dean Klinkenberg (57:18):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes. I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon, you help keepthe program going, just go to
Patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the
(57:39):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guidebooks forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast is written and producedby me, Dean Klinkenberg.
Original music by Noah Fence.
See you next time.
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