Lake Pepin’s Legends, Communities, and Future with Michael Anderson

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Lake Pepin is a natural widening in the main channel of the Mississippi River and one of the most popular sections of the river. In this episode, I have a wide-ranging conversation about the lake with Michael Anderson, Executive Director of the Lake Pepin Legacy Alliance. After we cover the basics about the lake (where it is, how it formed), we talk about the long human history in the region and delve into the lore about monsters that many believe inhabit the lake. We then take a virtual tour around the 100-mile perimeter of the lake, highlighting the communities and offering tips about what to visit, including recreational options such as paddling and hiking. We also take a brief detour to talk about one of my favorite events, Grumpy Old Men Days in Wabasha, which celebrates the joys of winter. We finish by talking about threats to the health of the lake, focusing mostly on sedimentation, and what the Lake Pepin Legacy Alliance and others are doing to address those threats. In the introduction, I offer a few additional tips on making the most of a visit to Lake Pepin.

Episode Transcript

Michael Anderson (00:00):
Oh, yeah, monsters are real. We got
monsters in the lake. We gotfish monsters here. There, I
mean, there are big fish, nodoubt, there is the legend of
Pepie, who is a, I would if Isaid a play on the Loch Ness
monster that doesn't give Pepiehis full due. Because we all

(00:21):
know Pepie is, of course, helooks like the Loch Ness
monster, but, and he's veryreal. I couldn't say that about
Loch Ness monster, but Pepie isa very real monster who lives in
Lake Pepin.

Dean Klinkenberg (00:53):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and

(01:13):
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
information on the Mississippiat
MississippiValleyTraveler.com,let's get going.
Welcome to Episode 75 of theMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast, while the summer travelseason is just around the
corner, and in this episode,we're going to offer a peek into

(01:36):
one of the more popular sectionsof the Mississippi to explore,
and that is the area we callLake Pepin. Lake Pepin, as we
discussed in this episode, is anatural lake that formed in the
river's main channel. My guestwill explain more about the
formation of the lake and talksome about the geology and the

(01:57):
life in the lake. And that guestis Michael Anderson, who is the
Executive Director of the LakePepin Legacy Alliance, in this
episode.
Then, besides those basics onthe lake, we talk a little bit
about monsters that might livein the lake. There have been a
lot of there's a lot of loreabout monsters that inhabit Lake

(02:17):
Pepin. So I had to ask him aboutthat.
Michael will also describe thelong human history in the area
around Lake Pepin, and we take avirtual trip around the lake
with a few quick highlights oftowns along the way, and some
some tips for visiting the lake.
And some of these communities.
There are lots of opportunitiesfor outdoor recreation. We talk

(02:39):
about that as well.
And then we get into more of theecology issues. We talk about
some of the threats thatcurrently face Lake Pepin, which
is mostly sedimentation. AndMichael goes into some detail
describing why sedimentation isa concern and how that has
become an issue. He describessome of the work of the Lake

(03:01):
Pepin Legacy Alliance and othersto protect the health of Lake
Pepin for future generations,and some current projects
underway to restore areas thathave silted in heavily.
I do want to offer just a fewmore tips of my own for those of
you who are thinking about maybetraveling up to that part of the
lake, or that part of theMississippi. So the area we're

(03:21):
talking about is just a littlesouth of the Twin Cities. It's a
very popular place to visit,especially for folks with Twin
Cities, summers can be verybusy. So if you're going to go,
probably you need to do someadvanced planning in the summer
and into the fall, which isprobably even busier if you're
going to be there on a weekend,especially, I highly recommend
booking your accommodations inadvance, and once you get there,

(03:46):
you'll see why this is such apopular place.
There are scenic small towns allaround the lake on both sides,
in Minnesota and in Wisconsin,there are good places to eat,
artist shops, and plenty ofopportunities to get outside and
enjoy yourself, whether it'shiking or actually getting on
the water. Two to three daysfeels like an ideal pace to me,

(04:08):
although I know there are peoplewho will try to drive the entire
100 mile loop in a few hours, Ithink that's a shame. I think
you really want to have sometime to settle in and explore at
a slower pace, to have theopportunity to enjoy a sunset or
a sunrise, whichever is moreyour vibe, and just really take
time to go deeper intoappreciating what's around this

(04:30):
part of the Mississippi.
You'll find that most of thestandard lodging options are in
Red Wing and Lake City. You gota few more in Wabasha, but there
are also a whole bunch of Airbnboptions in places all around the
lake. So if that's your thing,you can check out Airbnb and
find something there. If you'dlike to know more, I have a

(04:51):
whole chapter on Lake Pepin andthe area around Lake Pepin in my
book 'Road Tripping the GreatRiver Road,' which is in its
third edition. So you can orderthat at online retailers or just
contact me directly. As always,the show notes for this episode
will be atMississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast.

(05:11):
You can see a few pictures fromLake Pepin, as well as have
access to all previous episodesat that same address.
Thanks to those of you continueto show me some love through
Patreon. Your support keeps thispodcast going and makes me feel
really good for as little as $1a month, you can join the

(05:33):
Patreon community and get earlyaccess to each of these
episodes. Patreon not yourthing. You can buy me a coffee.
Go toMississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast
and there you'll find out how tojoin Patreon or how to buy me a
coffee, as well as looking upall those show notes and all the
previous episodes.

(05:55):
Well, let's get on with theinterview.
Michael Anderson is theExecutive Director of the Lake
Pepin Legacy Alliance, where heleads efforts to reduce
sedimentation, improve habitatand enhance public access across

(06:18):
the Lake Pepin watershed inMinnesota and Wisconsin. He has
over a decade of entrepreneurialexperience centered on the
Mississippi River in Wabasha,Minnesota, including founding an
ecotourism paddling company thathas introduced over 10,000
people to the Mississippi Riverin Lake Pepin. Alongside a
dedicated team, Michael and hiswife operate an organic

(06:39):
vegetable farm in a nearbyvalley, using regenerative
agriculture practices to promotesoil and water health. His work
focuses on translating scienceinto practical on the ground
solutions, and he continues tostay closely connected to the
land and local community.
Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Michael Anderson (07:00):
Thank you, Dean. It's great to be here.
Great to talk with you.

Dean Klinkenberg (07:04):
I'm proud to count myself among the 10,000
people who had the opportunityto get on the water with you.
We'll talk about paddling alittle bit later, but I think
there's some really fantasticopportunities for paddling in
the area that I know I want tospend a little bit of time
talking about, but before we getinto that, I'm just kind of

(07:24):
curious, like, how you gotconnected to this part of the
Mississippi like, how did, as Irecall, you kind of grew up in
the Twin Cities, or you had aTwin Cities connection. How did
you end up spending so much ofyour your professional and
private life now focused alongthis part of the river?

Michael Anderson (07:41):
Yeah, well, that's a is a great question.
And I never was, you know, allthis as a narrative arc for my
life that I had imagined. I wasliving in northern Minnesota,
actually, not far from theheadwaters, maybe half hour from
Lake Itasca, and I got anopportunity to run and manage

(08:05):
and run a bed and breakfast inWabasha, Minnesota on the
Mississippi River. So a friendand I jumped on that opportunity
with the big caveat that ifwe're going to do this, which I
know nothing about a bed andbreakfast, we're going to do
kayaking too. So when we moveddown here, we ran a B&B made,
breakfast where people did thatwhole thing, but then would take

(08:27):
our guests on guided kayak toursin the backwaters of the
Mississippi. And so, like,that's, that's how I really sunk
my teeth into this area, or howthis area got into me. Is like,
is exploring the backwaters andthe main channel and Lake Pepin
by kayak. And that has what haskept me going with Burke on the

(08:47):
river. And partway through allthat, I've met my wife here as
she was farming on the Wisconsinside, and we now farm over on
the Minnesota side, but we farmnot far off the river in a
little valley. And so I, youknow, I've spent a lot of time
days that go between being onthe water to being in the farm,

(09:09):
and it's just a miraculouslywonderful place to live.

Dean Klinkenberg (09:15):
I can't imagine a better like second
occupation for somebodyconcerned about Lake Pepin and
water quality in the in theMississippi to also be farming,
because farming practices havesuch an impact on the river
water quality and the future ofthe river. We'll get to threats
about facing the lake Pepin areadown the road here. But on your

(09:37):
farming side of things, what'syour farm like? What are you
growing there? How many acres?
What's that operation like?

Michael Anderson (09:44):
Yeah, we grow organic vegetables, and the
entire farm property is about160 acres. Most, most of that is
forest. There's maybe ten or soin hazelnuts, ten or so acres in
hazelnuts. Another fifteen-ishpasture. And then we have

(10:04):
vegetables on about five acresor so, which includes, you know,
a greenhouse and a few hightunnels. So the big plastics,
you know, structures that looklike greenhouses. We have
several of those. So we grow inabout, you know, we operate in
about four or five acres here onthe farm. So it's not a lot.
When you think of like a bigcorn and soy operation that are

(10:27):
running 1000s of acres ours.
Ours is small size wise incomparison. But we grow a lot
of, you know, food that goesright to dinner tables.

Dean Klinkenberg (10:37):
You grow a lot of the food we actually eat.
Yes, and I imagine you have tohave a fair amount of help even
to manage a farm of that size.

Michael Anderson (10:47):
Yeah, we do.
We have every year, it's around5, 6 or 7 people that are here
on the farm, you know, invarying part time capacities or
seasonal capacities, but ittakes a lot of hands. And my
wife is, you know, full time,runs the farm, and it's her
brain child. She's the enginebehind it. And I get a, I get to

(11:09):
fill in all the cracks, and Iget to fix this or or, you know,
cover crop that field, or fixthe broken thing here and there.
I do a lot of just, you know,filling in the small cracks,

Dean Klinkenberg (11:23):
All right.
Well, that's great. So are youselling products in farmer's
markets? Like you grow enough tobe able to have like a booth or
stand in the local farmer'smarkets?

Michael Anderson (11:35):
We do, we do three farmers markets. Our
largest one is in the cities ina suburb called Hopkins. And
then we do it a farmer's markethere in Wabasha, just to be part
of our community. And then samewith Lake City as well, which is
right on Lake Pepin. And Icannot imagine a better farmer's
market anywhere than the LakeCity farmer's market, if, if

(11:59):
you've been to the new park theyhave downtown that's right on
the lake. It just overlooks thelake from our stand, and you see
if they're in the evening, soyou catch a sunset over the
lake. It's just, it's the mostgorgeous farmer's market that
that we we started going to,thought we'd hand it off to a
staff member, but then we justkept going to because it's so

(12:21):
beautiful.

Dean Klinkenberg (12:22):
Yeah, I've been to that farmer's market,
and I kept getting distracted bythe views. Yeah, there were a
lot of produce there as well.
But, yeah, that was a goodfarmer's market, given the size
of the community too. There's a,there was a good selection of
products there.

Michael Anderson (12:35):
Yes, yeah, they're, they're for the size of
the community. It is an amazingfarmer's market. It's active. It
has a lot of people. It's gotfood trucks. It has music. The
organizers have done a great jobof that market. That's why we
love going to that one

Dean Klinkenberg (12:52):
Well, so let's talk a little bit about the lake
itself then. You know, thebeautiful lake that this
farmer's market overlooks. Tellus, I'm not sure everybody who
listens to the podcast isfamiliar with all the geography
of the river and how there arethese really unique spots along
the way. Tell us about, you knowwhat Lake Pepin actually is,

(13:13):
what makes it different andunique?

Michael Anderson (13:17):
Yeah, so Lake Pepin is, it's an actual lake on
the Mississippi River. We'repart of the river. It's a
riverine lake, and it is creatednot due to a lock and dam, but a
natural dam, or natural pinchpoint of the river, where the
Chippewa River, which comes fromWisconsin, northern Wisconsin,

(13:39):
through the towns of Eau Claireand Durand. When that hits the
Mississippi, it has created amassive delta here. And that
delta is what is backfilledeverything in the valley behind
it on the Mississippi River. Andso that's what created Lake
Pepin. We we sit atop orupstream of that delta. And so

(14:04):
it backed up the whole valleyfor 22 miles, all the way to
just almost to the town of RedWing.

Dean Klinkenberg (14:11):
And about how wide is it? The water almost
goes bluff to bluff in thissection, right? So two and a
half miles something aroundthat?

Michael Anderson (14:21):
Yeah, where the average, I think, is around
1.7 but yeah, you'll get somewider spots and narrower spots
in that. But yeah, you couldbluff to bluff is a great way to
describe it. And some areasyou'll have a terrace here,
where there's like Lake City ison a terrace. But when water
goes bluff to bluff, you justget dramatic viewpoints of, you

(14:42):
know, water coming close up tothe to the bluff edge.

Dean Klinkenberg (14:47):
And in terms of depth of that stretch, it's a
little deeper than the mainchannel of the Mississippi
typically is in the UpperMississippi.

Michael Anderson (14:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, the. It'll be deeper thanthe navigational channel. It
depends where you are on thelake, but as you get further
down the lake, you get lesssediment that drops out, and
most of it will drop out aheadof the lake. So you get a lot
deeper areas down there than youdo up by the town of Bay City,
for example, which is at thehead of the lake. But once you

(15:19):
get down past Lake City and andalmost to Reads Landing, you get
deeper water down there.

Dean Klinkenberg (15:29):
Because there are some different
characteristics in this stretchof the river. Is the, do we have
any differences in the animallife, the fish life, or what you
know, the ecosystems or habitatsin Lake Pepin, then you might
see in other parts of theMississippi or the main channel
of the river.

Michael Anderson (15:49):
Yeah, you get because the water here slows and
settles down, and nutrients willwill or sediment and nutrients
will slow and settle down. Andwe can not always, but we can
have, like a stratification inthe lake, where a river is not

(16:10):
going to have a stratifiedlayer, meaning like a warm top
layer and a cold bottom layer,and so that will attract
different fish or push fisharound to different layers of
the water column. So when you'rein the main channel, it's a lot
more just, you know, for allintensive purposes, thinking
about it, it's just, you know,fast moving water straight in a

(16:31):
line. Obviously it curves alittle bit. But here, because
you it's so wide, gets so slow,in comparison, you have, you
have that stratification, youhave different nutrients
dropping out. You'll getvegetation growing in a way that
you don't once you're in themain channel and the main

(16:53):
corridor of the river. And sothat's going to attract all
kinds of different fish life andduck life that area water fowl
compared to what you're going tosee on on the main channel of
the river. So it has it. It hasa lot of what you might see, or
a lot of what you're going tosee on a lake in this area of
the country. And then once youquickly exit towards Reads

(17:18):
Landing, you're back into mainchannel life in backfire life.

Dean Klinkenberg (17:23):
Right. So are there different fish then, or
bigger fish, or, like, what?

Michael Anderson (17:27):
I think you're largely going to get, I don't, I
shouldn't speak with, you know,like, I'm not a professional
fisherman, so I couldn't saythat exactly, but you're going
to get some differences of whatyou're going to see are going to
catch here on the lake versuswhen you're in the navigational
channel or on the on a sidechannel, but you're going to get

(17:51):
all the same fish that are atleast passing through, you know?
So if you're if it's somethingthat is downstream of the lake,
you're going to have it upstreamof the lake, you're going to
have it passing through thelake.

Dean Klinkenberg (18:02):
I remember in reading some of the early
journals, or the journals whereearly European explorers who
were passing through it wasn'tunusual for them to get warnings
or maybe advice from NativeAmericans nearby to watch out
for monsters in the lake. Doesthat ring a bell to you? Like,

(18:24):
what do you what do you knowabout those stories about, you
know, monsters that werefamously inhabiting this, this
body of water?

Michael Anderson (18:31):
Oh, yeah, monsters are real. We got
monsters in the lake. We gotfish monsters here. There. I
mean, there are big fish. Nodoubts. There is the legend of
Pepie, who is a, I would if Isaid a play on the Loch Ness
monster that doesn't give Pepiehis full due, because we all

(18:52):
know Pepie is, of course, helooks like the Loch Ness
monster, but, and he's veryreal. I couldn't say that about
Loch Ness monster, but Pepie isa very real monster who lives in
Lake Pepin. And that, that's allI have to say about Pepie.

Dean Klinkenberg (19:08):
And with a name like Pepie, it sort of
implies a friendliness or acuddliness almost.

Michael Anderson (19:14):
Yeah, he's cute. He's cuddly. If you go out
in the lake in the middle ofnight in a rowboat, he'll come
out and, you know, you can hangout with Pepie.

Dean Klinkenberg (19:24):
And I'm sure there's no shortage of shops in
Lake City or other areas whereyou can get a nice t shirt
saying, I saw Pepie, or, youknow, watch out for Pepie,
something like that.

Michael Anderson (19:33):
Yeah, you could get your Pepie gear. I
feel like I've seen a Pepiebook. I've never seen a Pepie
tattoo. That would be the onething I haven't seen yet. Yeah,
we do have, we do have Pepie,Pepie paraphernalia that you can
get.

Dean Klinkenberg (19:50):
So this would have been the traditional
homeland of the Dakota people.
Do we, what do we know abouttheir relationship with this
particular area, with Lake Pepinitself, or did they have what
words do they use to describethe lake? Do we know anything
about that part of the historyor the story of the lake?

Michael Anderson (20:13):
Since this area, the whole Mississippi, as
you know, is a corridor ahighway for the Dakota people,
and this area had a couple, Ihad numerous, what's the correct
term, encampments or villages?
Wabasha was one. Red Wing wasone. But no doubt many other
places along the lake and up andso it was used extensively to my

(20:37):
understanding what I've beentold, you know, seasonally,
where people would, people wouldcome during certain times of the
year and then head up into thebluffs during certain times of
the year. And in fact, one ofthe something I recently learned

(20:57):
was the earliest form ofcultivation of plants. You could
call it agriculture, if youwant, was in Minnesota. So in
the whole Upper Midwest inMinnesota was found on a little
valley right on the edge of LakePepin and a place called King's
Cooley. It's on the Minnesotaside, near, near Reads Landing

(21:22):
near Camp Lacupolis, in thelittle spot that you see on maps
called Maple Springs. They foundsquash feeds there that they
radio carbon data to 2500 yearsago. So as the first form that
they've ever found of plantcultivation in this area of the
country. So that's how far theyget data back based upon this

(21:47):
one site here near near CampLacupolis, King's Cooley.

Dean Klinkenberg (21:54):
All right.

Michael Anderson (21:54):
Yeah, it's got a rich history of the Dakota and
of the various peoples before ittoo.

Dean Klinkenberg (22:03):
Yeah. A couple episodes ago, I had Julie
Zimmerman on and talking aboutCahokia down here in St Louis,
and Mississippian culture. Andthere's a Mississippian site
just outside of Red Wing, up inthe bluffs around Red Wing, I
believe, right?

Michael Anderson (22:19):
Yeah, near Frontenac State Park. I don't
know if that's the one thatyou're referring to, but that
that has some sites in it aswell. And I've met private
landowners who have some ontheir on their land, to on some
bluffs I overlook the riveraround here, have some, have

(22:41):
some mounds on their land.

Dean Klinkenberg (22:44):
So the the first Europeans to come in were
French, and so what, what didthey do when they when they get
to this area, what will, whatwas their primary interest?

Michael Anderson (22:59):
When I think so. I'm like, one of the
earliest that we speak about isHennepin coming through. And he
was coming through in, I thinkthe late 1600s, 1680 rings a
bell, and he was charged to tohead out. I think they might
have been at the confluence ofthe Illinois in the Mississippi,

(23:22):
he was charged to head upstreamwith a couple others to, I'm not
sure the point other, if it wasto look for suitable sites for
for trading, or for, I'm sure,economic, financial reasons at
the heart of it. He made it toLake Pepin, and then was

(23:43):
captured by some by Dakota, andwas brought up to Mille Lacs.
And then from there, some othertrader had found out about it
and negotiated his release fromMille Lacs. But in that whole
journey is when he discovered isdefinitely not the right word,
you could say that in bigquotes, but when he saw St.

(24:04):
Anthony Falls in, and named StAnthony Falls in Minneapolis, it
was on that on that same trip,and I believe that was where the
name on that trip often havebeen given the name for Lake
Pepin, as 'Lake of Tears' withvarious meanings as to tears.
And I think it was when he tothe best of my recollection,

(24:29):
when he was and his crew wascaptured by Dakota. They were
brought somewhere on Lake Pepin.
And it came from that nightthat, in his telling, that the
Dakota warriors that capturedhim were crying and about
whether they should put him todeath or not. And so 'Lake of
Tears' comes from that. That'smy understanding of that. I

(24:52):
think Hennepin was known forgrandiose tales and. And making
things seem bigger than theyneeded to be, or smaller if he
wanted them to. And I think heembellished quite a bit.

Dean Klinkenberg (25:08):
He did acquire quite a reputation for
embellishment I think, so. Ijust assumed, you know, the Lake
of Tears was, you know, his owntears. You know, he associated
it with his kidnapping, andmaybe that's why he called that
area Lake of Tears. Luckily,that name didn't stick.

Michael Anderson (25:24):
Luckily. So yeah, and that, that makes way
more sense than than the theother story I read. But you
know, he definitely would havetold it that way.

Dean Klinkenberg (25:33):
Yeah, they were probably his tears. I'm I
think we can assume.

Michael Anderson (25:37):
I think that's so, yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (25:40):
So the area today is really one of the more
interesting and scenic parts ofthe Mississippi to visit that I
know it's a very popular daytrip, especially from the Twin
Cities. I hope people actuallystick around longer and spend
more time in the area. Butwhat's interesting to me is that

(26:02):
it's mostly small towns aroundthis lake. The biggest city is
Red Wing, which is what, 14,000people or so.

Michael Anderson (26:09):
Yeah? About that? Yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (26:11):
So tell us a little bit about these
communities that ring Lake Pepintoday. Let's kind of go with
that from Red Wing down toWabasha, and we'll work our way
back up.

Michael Anderson (26:22):
Yeah, take the, take a loop around the
lake. I like that. That's agreat drive. Yeah, Red Wing at
it. Is it the biggest town here,around the lake, and it has
maybe the most industrialoutput, and traditionally has in
any of the other towns. It's notbig, but it's, it's like us, you
know, county, regional and smallregional town. So that's where

(26:46):
Red Wing shoes is. What else isfrom their Red Wing Pottery is
there. They also have largegrain terminals that ADM has
that there. And I'm no doubtmissing some other businesses,
but it has a lot of, Sturdiwheatis another big one there too. It

(27:06):
has a lot of economic enginebehind it, and then downstream
from there you get Lake City.
Lake City is much smallerpopulation, maybe around four or
5,000 if I'm correct, my memoryis correct. Beautiful town. It's
like it's situated right in themiddle of the lake, overlooks
the whole lake. It's just it's avery gorgeous town, beautiful

(27:29):
town, and they've done a lot tocenter their downtown with the
recent remodeling of their parkto really focus on the lake.
It's the birthplace of waterskiing too. They were, they were
the the town of Lake City wouldbe remiss if I didn't mention
that,

Dean Klinkenberg (27:49):
You're legally required to mention that, so.

Michael Anderson (27:52):
I think it has a large history of button
making. So I used to makebuttons from oyster shells or
mussel shells back in the day,and so a lot of that it took
place all around communities ofthe lake, but there was a large
place in Lake City that did it,and I believe there's still a

(28:14):
store there. Not that they dothat anymore, and I don't even
know if that would be legalanymore, but they definitely
talk about the history. Andthere's a store, I think, called
the Pearl Button Factory downthere, yeah. From there, you
bypass just, you know, a littlecamp called Camp Lacupolis, that
is just, you know, maybetrailers and a general store.

(28:35):
And then you get down to ReadsLanding. Reads Landing is also a
very small town, but was at onepoint just a booming town. All
the logs that came out ofnorthern Wisconsin would kind of
hole up there over the winter.
And it had, I will, I'll justsay, give a broader range. It
had maybe a dozen or so hotelsand bars and restaurants and

(28:56):
everything that came with thatin the late or in the mid, late
1800s so it was really a boomingtown at that point. And right
now there's a great restaurant /brew pub that's there. It has a
bed and breakfast. And in termsof, like, businesses that's,

(29:19):
that's really about all that'sthere these days, but it's an
absolutely beautiful town. It'svery small, but it's like, it's
a cool, cool spot. It's great topull off the river right there.

Dean Klinkenberg (29:31):
Right and exactly right at the spot where
the lake becomes the river.

Michael Anderson (29:34):
Yes, yeah, it's right at that it's, it's
such a cool junction. You havethe Chippewa River, the
Mississippi and Lake Pepin justabove it like you can catch
pretty dramatic sunsets fromthat area. It's gorgeous. Yeah,
once you leave Reads Landing,you're just a quick drive down
to Wabasha here. And Wabasha isa as a little river town. I

(30:01):
live in Wabasha, so I'm biasedhow great it is, but it's oldest
river town, oldest town ofMinnesota, which is in from the
1830s I have never seen an exactdate, but 1830s is how long
Wabasha has been incorporated asa city. And it has. We have the
National Eagle Center here,which attracts, you know, over

(30:23):
100,000 people every year, whoare small town of 2500 and our
downtown, our Main Street, it'sright on the river. It the
railroad tracks that go up anddown both sides of the
Mississippi over by Wabasha areset back from the river, maybe
almost a mile or so, so you havea downtown that, you know is

(30:45):
quiet. You don't have the trainscoming through. You hear that
nice, lonesome train whistle inthe distance, but you have a
nice, quiet, walkable downtown,and it's a beautiful stop. Lot
of tourists come here, and youknow, we have a few marinas,
entire two marinas in town. Soit's just a booming place in the
summer. Our population explodes.
And so this is the place whereyou can cross the river. You get

(31:10):
a bridge up by Red Wing, thenWabasha, and then further down
is Winona. So once you crosshere, you go through Nelson.
Nelson is a great little town.
It has the Nelson CheesecakeFactory, which is attracts
people from all over. It's gotmy favorite Wisconsin County
bar, called The Top Hat Bar. Andas you keep going up river,

(31:31):
you're now in what's called theWest Coast of Wisconsin, and how
they branded themselves. And soyou get, you get to the town of
Pepin, named after the lake.
It's got great some greatrestaurants. It has, like, a
couple wineries and severalwedding venues, like, really,
over the top, beautiful weddingvenues there. So if you want to
drop lots of money, I know Pepinis a place to do it, and

(31:55):
Stockholm. Once you leave Pepin,you get to Stockholm, which is
just an adorable little town of86 people. I haven't checked the
sign lately. 86, 76. I used tolive there, so I was one of
those people when I left, theythey flipped the sign down. So
like 85. It's a great littletown with probably one of the

(32:17):
best pie shops around that I wasjust at last weekend eating a
nice slice of cherry pie. Andthen you come through Maiden
Rock. Maiden Rock is anotherjust classic river town with
like, a cool art scene andbeautiful views right on the
river. And last but not least,you get to come all the way to

(32:39):
Bay City, where Bay City alsohas, it has a great river
access, a wonderful beach, oneof my favorite beaches, because
it looks down the entire, notthe entire because there's a big
turn in the lake, but it looksdown miles of Lake Pepin just
from the beach. It's just abeautiful spot and good access
to the main channel the riverfrom Bay City. And yeah,

(33:03):
another, another beautifulplace. Great restaurant there
called Chef Shack, which is afamous restaurant here in the
Twin Cities area. So it's justlike a beautiful drive. I think,
think I walk through what thedrive takes. Maybe, like, if
you're not stopping, you'regoing to do it an hour, but you

(33:25):
should probably stop and taketwo days to do it, probably.

Dean Klinkenberg (33:30):
Absolutely, I think I clocked at once. It's
about 100 miles, I think, to dothe whole loop from Red Wing,
yeah, back up. So, yeah, if younever stopped. You know, that's
a couple of hours driving time,tops. I don't know why you would
do that, but.

Michael Anderson (33:45):
No, yeah, you got to stop.

Dean Klinkenberg (33:47):
Yeah. And what I just love is like, like, these
are just small river towns.
These are old, traditional rivertowns. Many of them have
beautiful architecture, or somehistoric buildings, a lot of
brick. And a lot of the townshave their own sort of little
niche with some kind of historicsite or connection. Pepin's got
the Laura Ingalls Wilderconnection. Of course, we can't

(34:08):
short Wabasha in their GrumpyOld Men connection.

Michael Anderson (34:14):
So yes, yeah, the town does love to him up
their Grumpy Old Men festival.
We have it every, everyFebruary, or you gotta wear
plaid.

Dean Klinkenberg (34:26):
I've been twice.

Michael Anderson (34:27):
You've been twice?

Dean Klinkenberg (34:28):
I've been twice.

Michael Anderson (34:31):
It's, it's pretty it's pretty wild. Yeah,
you can really, you can jumpinto the frozen river. Did you
do that Dean? Did you jump ininto the water when you were
here?

Dean Klinkenberg (34:38):
I did not jump in the frozen river.

Unknown (34:41):
Okay, yeah, that's probably wise.

Dean Klinkenberg (34:44):
Maybe some sometime in the future.

Michael Anderson (34:48):
Yeah, next time, if you're planning to do
that, let me know. I'll comejump with you.

Dean Klinkenberg (34:51):
All right, good. I don't even know what I'd
have to do to prepare forsomething like that, but
probably the less thinking, thebetter.

Michael Anderson (34:59):
Yeah. Yeah, I have done it once here, in other
places, several times you just,you can't think about what
you're about to do. You just gotto do it sometimes, like in an
inner, inner liquid coat, doesthe trick too. Yeah, you want to
just not think about it. Justjump in.

Dean Klinkenberg (35:18):
Yeah. I had a great time, although I was
reminded that ice fishing is notexactly a spectator sport.

Michael Anderson (35:27):
Yeah, were you ice fishing?

Dean Klinkenberg (35:31):
I was watching a little bit just but, yeah, not
not made for TV. That's forsure,

Michael Anderson (35:40):
Definitely not made for TV. That's funny,
though. Yeah, it's, it can be itcan be fun. If you're in there,
most of the time you're ifyou're in an ice shack, you're
playing cards with someone, andthat's pretty, playing cards is
pretty fun.

Dean Klinkenberg (35:54):
Yeah, yeah, there's plenty to do. I don't
know if the church still doesit, but there was the hot dish
buffet at the local church.

Michael Anderson (36:04):
Yes, I I've had that a couple times there.
Yeah, yeah, hot dish buffet. Andthen there's another one at that
church does. That's like a saladluncheon, which is just, it's
every church basement fellowshiphall you can think of, crammed
into like, one setting. It'spretty great. I recommend it.

Dean Klinkenberg (36:25):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting
myself, just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guide books for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also write
the Frank Dodge mystery seriesthat is set in places along the
Mississippi. My newest book, TheWild Mississippi, goes deep into

(36:49):
the world of Old Man River.
Learn about the varied andcomplex ecosystems supported by
the Mississippi, the plant andanimal life that depends on
them, and where you can go toexperience at all. Find any of
these wherever books are sold.
Yeah, one of the other reallyunique places around the lake
too is like old Frontenac,

Michael Anderson (37:11):
Yeah, yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (37:12):
It started as a resort community, but now I
guess it's all private houses.

Michael Anderson (37:18):
Yeah, exactly.
It started as resorts andgenerally all private now.
There's at least on thewaterfront side of things. It's
got a public beach. I should,shouldn't say it's all private.
There's public beach there thatis a great beach. It is. You're
right on the lake. It's like abeautiful spot. And I it's
always quiet when I'm there.

(37:41):
It's never packed or busy. But Imean, so so is the life down
here. It's never that packed,which is kind of how we like it.
This beach feels so tucked awaythat it doesn't get that busy.
So pro tip. Check out. Check outthe beach in Old Frontenac,
Florence Township Beach. It's agreat little spot.

Dean Klinkenberg (38:04):
I recall. I'm blanking on the name of the
church now, but there was achurch in Frontenac too, that
was essentially unchanged fromwhen it was built in the late
1800s like if you wanted to seea church, I may look it up and
add a note about it in the shownotes, but I always like finding
those structures that give you apeek into the past, and they

(38:25):
hadn't made too many alterationsto the building over time.

Michael Anderson (38:28):
Oh cool, not familiar with it. That's That's
very cool. The, I was told thatthe town hall of Florence, town
hall, which is includes OldFrontenac, is, I think, the
oldest town hall in the state ofMinnesota, I think is what I is

(38:49):
what I recently learned, andthat I was driving by, and it's
right on highway 61 and Ithought it would be like tucked
away in a glamor spot, but Ithink it's right on the highway.
So not easy to miss

Dean Klinkenberg (39:03):
It's next to the diner, isn't it? Right,
Close?

Michael Anderson (39:05):
Yeah, right next to Whistle Stop.

Dean Klinkenberg (39:07):
Yeah,

Michael Anderson (39:07):
Exactly, yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (39:11):
So obviously, like one of the thing, there are
many recreational opportunitiesaround the lake, which is part
of the reason that people likegoing there. I imagine there are
a lot of weekenders from theTwin City that Twin Cities maybe
grab a room somewhere for anight. And can you just give us,
like, a sense of like, the rangeof things to do recreationally

(39:31):
in the area?

Michael Anderson (39:33):
Oh yeah, there's tons of stuff to do,
whether you're on the water orup in the bluffs. There's tons
of hiking. It seems that you'llfind some more hiking trails
clustered on the Minnesota side.
But when you're on Wisconsinside, you get one of my favorite
hiking trails, which is MaidenRock Bluff that is between
Maiden Rock and Stockholm andoverlooks, overlooks Lake Pepin,

(39:56):
you're up very high. And veryclose to the water, and you get
right to the edge, you overlookthe whole lake. It's a beautiful
spot. It's also where I gotmarried. And so, like, I'm
partial to that spot.

Dean Klinkenberg (40:11):
Wow. Great choice. I had a picture from
there on one of my book covers.

Michael Anderson (40:15):
Oh, really.

Dean Klinkenberg (40:16):
Yeah, it did not include a wedding photo,
though, just me standing on thebluff. Yeah, yeah, that's a
great spot.

Michael Anderson (40:24):
Beautiful spot. And then, and then, once
you get on, on, on, you know,down there's the river, there
are ample opportunities to geton the lake there. Whether
you're want to hire a sailboat,you can go out sailing on the
lake. You can go, notparasailing, what's the correct
term, hang gliding over thelake. And you can go, you can

(40:49):
rent kayaks, rent canoes andtake them up to the lake if you
like. Or one of the most popularspots to go paddling is right in
the Chippewa River Delta, rightat the end of the lake. You can
rent canoes and kayaks there.
And there are miles and miles ofbackwaters to paddle paddle over
there. It's a beautiful place.
So yeah, a lot of lot ofpaddling that can be done here.

(41:13):
And of course, there's tons ofpleasure crafts too. So people
out in the river, in their intheir power boats, and just
finding a sandbar somewhere onthe lake or on the river. And
some of those sandbars in thesummer, on a weekend, are just
lined with boats, just fullypacked with people. So if you
look, if you're looking for, youknow, more quiet sometimes those

(41:36):
weekday, the weekdays there are,are pretty calm and pretty nice.

Dean Klinkenberg (41:40):
Yeah. And I imagine in fall there's a lot of
traffic too, as people come downto check out fall colors.

Michael Anderson (41:48):
Yeah, the leaf peepers, you could call them.
There's a lot of people comingon down. It's for the just epic
views around the lake that youget, and driving through the
valleys here in the Driftlessyou just get outstanding views
of the colors. So yeah, we have,we have a lot of people will
come that time of year too. Kindof a lull once school starts,

(42:10):
but then it picks back up rightaround the end of September
through October.

Dean Klinkenberg (42:15):
Yeah. So one of the things I know, really
impressed me about it, too, isjust, you know, you you have a
couple of very different on thewater opportunities, like the
sailboats are great. I've doneit once. I was lucky enough to
get on a sailboat once, and itwas such a relaxing evening. It
was a sunset trip out. Just agreat way to relax. And you're

(42:37):
out in open water, you know? Soit's got that expansive feeling.
And in contrast, you can go downto Wabasha and you can join
Broken Paddle Paddling Companykayak and take a kayak tour
through the Chippewa Delta, asyou mentioned, which is much a
dense forest, dense wetlandforest. I know you described a
little bit, but can you tell usa couple things you really loved

(43:00):
about the experience of takingpeople through there.

Michael Anderson (43:04):
Yeah, oh, man, I loved so much about it. Where
do I start? I'm a large you zoomout when you, when I get, when
you get to bring someone throughthat area from where you start
to where you enter onto the mainchannel, you've gone through

(43:24):
about three miles of backwaters,and it's like you started with a
different person than is now onthe main channel. It's the
backwaters. It's such anintimate space. It's closer. The
channels are smaller. You're ina more intimate craft, it just
calms you and relaxes you, andyou just kind of shed away

(43:48):
everything that you came therewith. It's such a relaxing space
for people to explore. And sothat's one of the things as a as
a river guy I loved, was gettingto help people find even just a
couple hours of peace andrelaxation, paddling through
that area and like that area, todescribe it a little more are

(44:13):
these miles and miles of weavingchannels that interconnect and
splice together. And some are,you know, as narrow as 10 feet
wide, and as big you might get achannel that's 50 feet wide. So
they're never that big, andthey're always moving with the
current. And something dependson the flood regime, if it's

(44:34):
faster slow, and if it's reallyflooding, the whole backwater is
flooded. Now you're now you geta paddle through a giant, slowly
moving river that's in a forestand there's no land anywhere.
It's the most surreal thing thatthat we get to do around here is
paddle the backwater during theflood. There's nothing else like

(44:57):
that. It's unique experience.
It's so I, you know, I canrecommend it with all my heart.
It's a beautiful place to be andpaddle.

Dean Klinkenberg (45:07):
Yeah, boy, that should be on anybody's
bucket list if you're,especially if you're interested
in the Mississippi, the chanceto have a an on the water
experience through a floodplainforest during a high water
period. It is kind of surreal,but it's awesome. And through
those backwaters too, or throughthose all those side channels,
are usually a lot moreopportunities to see wildlife. I

(45:28):
remember when you and I wentout, we saw quite a bit. I know
we saw a bald eagle, and can'tremember everything off top my
head now, but I know we had apretty good paddle where we saw
a lot of different wildlife justin a couple of hours.

Michael Anderson (45:43):
Yeah, lots of bald eagles there. So many bald
eagles on the Mississippi Riverhere. That's why the National
Eagle Center is in watershed.
Typically, we see things likebeaver. Otter don't see as
often, but when you do, it'spretty special. So a lot a lot
of like beaver you'll seeswimming around, and muskrats
will see swimming around. Thoseare some common things we see.
You don't often see deer, butyou'll often hear deer, because

(46:07):
they see you first, and they'llrun away so they hear them
running away. And yeah, buteagles is really the thing we
see the most about i I've onlyever I've done so many tours,
and I've only seen, not seen aneagle one time. And it was the
funniest time, because I had, Iwas taking out a TV show, a

(46:32):
travel TV show that was all theway here from Japan, and they
wanted to see bald eagles, andso we took them on the river.
And was like, "Don't worry, wegot this. We see bald eagles
every time." That was the onlytime I didn't see a bald eagle
out of like, you know, I thinkover 300 tours that I've
personally been on. I justcouldn't believe it. I think

(46:54):
it's because I was like, asking.
Was asking the backwaters toshow me something. I was
demanding it almost, and it'slike, no, you don't control us.
We're not going to showourselves today.

Dean Klinkenberg (47:07):
So funny how that goes. So I imagine there
must be plenty of people thatkayak on their own through that
area. What are a couple of tipsyou would offer to people who
have their own boats and justkind of want to explore on their
own, I would guess it'd be kindof easy to get turned around or

Michael Anderson (47:27):
Yeah, yes, it can be easy to get turned around
get lost or.
So wecomes from the Minnesota River.
if you're doing if you'repaddling in the backwaters and
there, it's easy to do a lot ofA to B trips, trip that start in
one location and end in another,because we're on a river,
finding a route where you cancome back to where you started,

(47:48):
is it definitely doable, justnot as common as the A to B
trips. There are some great looproutes in the backwaters in
between the towns of Wabash andNelson, right off the dike road
that goes between the two. Soyou can, you can start where
you're in there. That's a greatspot. Lake Pepin, of course,

(48:09):
you can start and end. It's agiant lake you can put in on the
shore. And all the towns thatI've mentioned have public
access, so you can get in, gopaddle around and come on back.
And so once that comes to Pepin,we act as a settling basin. So
The one safety tip I'll give toPepin is it's a lake that has a
is long. So it can have a longthe fetch is long, so you can
all that sediment just drops outonce it gets here. And so on the

(48:31):
get a lot of waves and waveaction there. So it's best to
pay attention to the wind whenyou're on Pepin, or even go out
in the in the early morning orlate, or not too late, but later
evening, when things have calmeddown. But there's, there's tons
of Lake Pepin opportunities too.

(51:47):
upper end of the lake, at thehead of the lake near the towns
of Bay City, and just downstreamout of the town of Red Wing near
Wacouta, is another name placehere in those areas, see the
brunt of that sedimentation. Sothe lakes getting shallower,
islands are building up wherethere never were islands, and

(52:09):
because of that, you get a lotmore turbidity. So turbidity is
like cloudiness of water. Wehave all this sediment, and the
waves will kick it up becauseit's so shallow, and we get
cloudy water. Therefore we getlack of vegetation growing, and
lack of vegetation, you're goingto have lack of oxygen, lack of
fish, etc, etc, like it's justgoing to it just keeps going

(52:30):
down. So the head of the lakereally is where we see the most
drastic issues of sedimentation.
And so that's where we havefocused our efforts here in the
lake, as well as our effortsupstream to try and stop that,
stop erosion on those nearchannel sources as best we can.
And that's a large problem towork with, to work on. That's

(52:52):
where we're putting energy.
We've as an organization, we'veaccomplished a project with Army
Corps of Engineers, wherethey're actually dredging out
areas that have filled in withsedimentation, purpose building
some islands that will reducethat wind and reduce that
turbidity, allow vegetation togrow, digging out some deep

(53:16):
spots that will allow fish tocome in, which will bring
waterfall in the area. So wehave a big project, like a $25
million project that the ArmyCorps of Engineers is is soon to
complete, maybe the end of thisyear, that was really
highlighting some of thedownstream fixes, mitigation to

(53:39):
the issue that is coming fromupstream.

Dean Klinkenberg (53:42):
Is that project the one concentrated
around Bay City?

Michael Anderson (53:45):
Yes, correct.
That's right around Bay City.

Dean Klinkenberg (53:47):
Yep. So I'll summarize this for myself too,
as I understand it too, likepart of the problem here is that
the Minnesota River cuts throughold glacial plains. There's a
lot of very fine sediment thaterode easily. So because of the
changing in conditions withdrain tiles, you know, the

(54:09):
drainage tiles and then heavierrainfall, the those soils wash
into the rivers more easily. Andthey come down the Minnesota
River meet the Mississippi justsouth of downtown Minneapolis.
And then as they flow downstream, and they hit that still
water, or very slow flow at LakePepin, then that sediment starts

(54:31):
to drop out. So as you saidearly on, then you get that
concentration of sedimentfalling out at the head of the
lake. Get gets the brunt ofthat,

Michael Anderson (54:42):
Yeah, that's perfect. That's very. It's very
concisely put. That is, that isthe issue that we face here we
and there's a reason a lot oflike agencies will will use Lake
Pepin as a reference point forinformation, for what. Happens
upstream, because we can seethose effects here so cleanly.

(55:05):
You know, you can see the therate of sedimentation from
before settlement,pre-settlement and then going
through the 1900s, you know,going through all the way till
today. You can see those insediment cores here in the lake,
as compared to other areas whereyou just don't, you can't,
because you don't have that sameeffect.

Dean Klinkenberg (55:23):
So give us a sense of how different it is
today. Because I think a lot ofpeople would think, well, you
know, there's always beensediment in these rivers.
There's always rivers are alwayschanging channels, moving things
around a little bit. So what'sso different about what's
happening today?

Michael Anderson (55:37):
Yeah, yeah, fair question, and it's, it's
it's not that sediment by itselfis bad, like they're, you know,
set of those are nutrients thatare applied, you know, to the
river and help create and moveand shift islands. We receive
here in Lake Pepin 10 times morethan we used to. So the lake, if

(56:00):
left to its own devices ofsedimentation modeled out it
would be, it would be a lake asis for about 3500 years, and
that that time span has beenreduced by tenfold. So now, if
we continue to farm at the waywe do, and if, if we have
rainfall events like we havecontinued to have, and if they

(56:23):
get worse, we're at maybe 350years of this lake's existence,
and that's going to start uphere at Bay City, where it's
already starting, and slowlywork its way downstream,
creating side channels, creatingislands In the middle of a lake,
creating shallow spots. Yeah. Soto get back to your question,

(56:46):
set about sediment, like, was itis a bad or is it good? Too much
is bad and a little bit is anormal, normal process of
landscape river interaction.

Dean Klinkenberg (57:00):
So part of the challenge, I imagine for you is
that some of this is driven bymodern agricultural practices.
And so how much headway have youhad working with farmers to
reduce the impact of thedrainage tiles on water quality,
on sediment load in theMinnesota River and down river?

Michael Anderson (57:25):
Almost everybody who works on this
issue here in Minnesota has madevery small inroads into drain
drainage tile. The way it worksis, if a farmer wants to tile a
piece of land, he goes to hislocal here, she goes to their
local RCS office or SWCD, whichare kind of right next to each

(57:50):
other. SWCD is here is our likeenvironmental account office,
applies for the permit, and aslong as they're generally just
given the permit. Basicallythere, there's not too many,
there's not a rigorousapplication or anything strict
that they have to go through.
Then they can send that wateroff their off their land, and

(58:10):
they're the rules andregulations around where it
goes, what it does, or where itgoes, aren't entirely strict. So
there has been movement in inMinnesota, in some environmental
advocacy circles, to adjustrules around drain tile that
would help, that would help thesituation, but that that's going

(58:33):
to be a hard sell in in a statethat relies its farming sector.
A large part of it relies ondrain tile to farm the land they
farm. So much of the area thatis farmed in the Minnesota River
Basin used to have lots ofOracle like prairie potholes and

(58:55):
wetlands in it, and you know,you could have your farm around
those but now that people haveput in drain tile you can farm
what used to be lakes and whatused to be wetlands and ponds.
So that's it would be reallyhard, if not impossible, to
reverse that trend and buildmore wetlands and things like

(59:17):
that. So the biggest thing thatthat that we are focusing on at
LPLA is we're looking at a sliceof the landscape of ravines, and
that ravines contributedisproportionate amount of
sediment relative to their theirpercent of the landscape. And so
those aren't areas that can befarmed. They're just steep

(59:39):
valleys, you know, not huge, butsteep enough. And they're
usually treed or shrubs. Youcan't farm them. And so we're
looking at ways to reducesedimentation coming out of
ravines and slow the water atthe head of a ring at the top of
the ravine. So there aredifferent structures that that

(01:00:01):
local, environmental, countylevel organizations or NRC
offices will build that keepmore of that water up in the
field. So we'll keep that draintile water, and they'll like
pond it and then let it slowlyrelease, instead of release
rapidly, all at once, as soon asit gets there. So there are some

(01:00:23):
efforts, amongst otherorganizations and ours to really
focus on slices of thelandscape. It's called targeted
erosion control. Where we'rejust we're trying to target the
highest producing places oferosion and work on those. So
that's kind of that's whereheadway can be made most easily

(01:00:47):
in agricultural communities, isnot we need to turn your
farmland into a wetland. That'snot likely, but if we can help
manipulate the area that youdon't farm as wildlife value has
no economic value to you. If wecan manipulate this area to

(01:01:10):
produce an environmentalbenefit, it's where we'd like to
work. And so yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:01:19):
So for the for farmers that do have drainage
tiles already installed, arethere any options for them to
reduce the runoff impact of fromthose drainage tiles?

Michael Anderson (01:01:31):
I will say yes, but I don't know the
specific structures that dothat. There are ways and to
either reroute tile or routed toareas that let you, let it sink
in more. So I won't, I won'tspeak further on it, because I
don't know the specifics on allthe structures. But it can be

(01:01:51):
that is, I don't know if that'sas likely.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:01:57):
Well, it cost them money too.

Michael Anderson (01:01:59):
It'll, it'll cost them money. There are a lot
of state and federal, countydollars that go to help
landowners install thesepractices. But sometimes, you
know, people don't want to, forvarious reasons. Don't want to
use that practice, whether it'scover cropping or installing

(01:02:22):
like a sediment pond on theirfarm, it for various reasons.
Sometimes people don't want toinstall those things, and so
there, there are some novelapproaches to it, and I've
recently started looking atsomething that called water

(01:02:43):
quality trading that happens,happens in a more mature market
out by Chesapeake Bay out east.
I think other states haveprograms too, but the state of
Wisconsin also has a small,burgeoning program. It's where
different regulated NFCs of theof the city or local government

(01:03:06):
have to meet water qualitystandards. But they they it's
too costly for them to dosomething within their own city.
So they can pay, essentially,I'm making it very simplistic,
but they can essentially pay tohave something done upstream
that reduces whether it'sphosphorus or sediment, whatever

(01:03:27):
their goal is, whatever whateverregulation they need to meet. So
that's called water qualitytrading, and that's kind of a
Minnesota doesn't formally havethat, but it's starting to gain
a little traction here inMinnesota as an idea. So it's by
no way a robust marketplace hereat all.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:03:48):
Right. But, and just to be clear, too, and
I'm not, I guess I'm passingjudgment slightly on this, but
we're talking about farmers thatare essentially growing corn or
soybeans, right? These arecommodity crops. They're not
growing vegetables that are soldto the local farmer market on
the on these mass farms, they'regrowing corn and soybeans that,

(01:04:13):
for the most part, are sold forexport, sold for maybe biofuels.
But they're not growing cropsfor human consumption for the

Michael Anderson (01:04:22):
For the most part. Yeah, I don't have the
most part.
percentage of in front of me,but I know it's a lot of corn
that goes to ethanol. So ethanolis, you know, a large part of
the gas at the pump. So if yousee, like, E85 or whatever,
there's a lot, there's ethanolin our gas, and that comes from
a corn. So we grow a lot offuel, a lot of feed stock for,

(01:04:46):
you know, hogs, cattle,chickens, whatever is eating it.
And we also export a lot. So alot of our soybeans get exported
overseas, but none of that, noneof that corn. And so that you
see, I mean, none of it, most,most of what you're seeing is
not anything that we're going toeat directly we, you know, and

(01:05:10):
even, yeah, we'll just, we'llsay that it's not really human
food that you see growing in thelandscape very often.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:05:18):
So is the water quality in Lake Pepin
affected at all by fertilizerrunoff?

Michael Anderson (01:05:25):
That's a great question. And I don't have the
data on fertilizer enough, otherthan, you know, nitrates coming
through the system. I doubtinformation is available, and I
don't have this specific numberon that right now, I think we're
we're right near the limits onacceptability for nitrates.

(01:05:47):
Don't quote me on that. It's notlike this is going to air, or
anything,

Dean Klinkenberg (01:05:51):
It's not like this is public, or anything.

Michael Anderson (01:05:53):
But like phosphorus, for example, is
something that Lake Pepin has animpairment for, according to the
state of Minnesota. So we thatmeans we have too much
phosphorus in our system, andthat largely comes phosphorus
binds to soil. So we get a lotfrom that sediment that comes

(01:06:13):
into the lake. We used to get alot that come, that would come
from, like wastewater dischargefrom treatment plants, we've
largely fixed that problem overover, you know, the ensuing
decades, we've largely fixed theproblem of phosphorus coming

(01:06:33):
from those plants, but it'sstill bound in in soil from farm
fields. So we get a lot thatwill come from the Minnesota
River basin riding. It's, youknow, right in the back of the
soil particle.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:48):
All right, are there any other threats to the
lake that that we should beconcerned about?

Michael Anderson (01:06:56):
Um, I the, you know, some of the same, same
threats that all of us in theenvironmental advocacy world
deal with, but our largestthings are our sediment,
phosphorus we get. You know, theMississippi River brings to us

(01:07:18):
all kinds of things that comefrom upstream. So PFAs is one
which is largely comes from 3Mwhich is upstream of us. There's
a plant in Cottage Grove,Minnesota, and that has created
a fish consumptionrecommendation that's pretty
stringent, that affects us alldown here, I think even all the

(01:07:39):
way down through Wabasha. PCBsare something that I have been
around for a while and willcontinue to be around in that
they're stuck within the soil,soil particles at the bottom of
lakes and rivers and backwaters.
But PFAs is one that we hear alot of questions about, and so
there, there has been a recentlarge settlement in Minnesota

(01:08:03):
between 3M and the state toclean up, to clean up their PFAs
contamination that they havecaused, and implement better and
more strict guidelines at theirplants in Cottage Grove.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:08:22):
So what are the recommended limits on
consuming fish then? Are therespecific fish to avoid eating,
or there don't eat it more thanonce or twice a week? Or what
are the specific recommendationsaround eating fish from the
lake?

Michael Anderson (01:08:36):
Great question. I don't have the
specifics, and I think it'spretty stringent. It sounds
like, you know, something likeone fish every couple of weeks,
or something like that. I don't,don't quote me on that again.
This isn't gonna air. It'ssomething very stringent like
that. And the fish thataccumulated the most are those

(01:08:57):
at the top of the food chain. Asyou know, it'll bio accumulate
as it works on up so things thatare eating the smaller fish your
northern plank, yeah, it'sgonna, gonna keep going up the
system.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:09:11):
All right, that's it's a lot to consider.
So thanks for taking us throughall that. And tell us, then tell
us about the Lake Pepin LegacyAlliance.

Michael Anderson (01:09:22):
Yeah, Lake Pepin Legacy Alliance. We've
been around for 17 years now,and it was started by people who
who live on the Minnesota sideon Lake Pepin, who could
visually see the issue ofsedimentation affecting the
lake. And they really started toask, okay, what is this? Why is

(01:09:43):
this happening? Is this natural?
Is this not natural? Let's,let's figure that question out,
and then, if it's a problem,let's start doing something
about it. So it's to the creditof the original founders of this
organization to to get it goingto see the problem. And then
start trying, then, then startto work on solutions. And so

(01:10:03):
we've been doing that now, likeI said, for near 20 years, and
we've become an advocacyorganization for the health of
the lake, for all of our memberswho are who recreate on the
lake, who live around the lake.

(01:10:23):
So that's the the core of our,of our organization, our
membership, which is, you know,over, over 1200 people strong
that live around Lake Pepin andin the area. And you know, it's,
it's a it's a large group. It'sa lot of people who, who are,

(01:10:43):
have been in, are part of thisorganization for a small area
like this.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:10:49):
Right. That that's a lot of people. I'm very
impressed considering, like,the, like you said, the number
of people who live around thereisn't so big, so it's a lot of
concerned people.

Michael Anderson (01:11:01):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, people have, have very
have realized the have seen theissue firsthand of the lake
slowly and feeling at the headof the lake. You know, when
boats are getting stuck and youcan't fish or you can't hunt in
those areas that used to be ableto you really start to notice

(01:11:22):
the issue?

Dean Klinkenberg (01:11:24):
Well, if folks are interested in following the
work of the Lake Pepin LegacyAlliance, what would be a good
place to do so?

Michael Anderson (01:11:32):
Follow us on our website and sign up for our
newsletter. We send it out, sendit out monthly, and we take a
lot of put a lot of work intofinding and understanding the
relevant scientific informationabout the lake and trying to
translate that into into moreeasily understandable language,

(01:11:54):
and putting that out there forall of our members to understand
and we continually communicateabout, of course, the work that
we're doing and our efforts andto work on sedimentation. So
follow us on our website andjoin our newsletter.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:12:09):
Fantastic.
Well, keep up the good work.
Thank you so much for sharingsome time with me today and
taking us around Lake Pepin andand hopefully you'll continue to
chip away at some of thosethreats to the lake's well
being.

Michael Anderson (01:12:21):
Yeah, well thank you so much, Dean, for
inviting me here for aconversation today. This has
been great.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:12:28):
Absolutely.
It's been a great conversation,and I'll see you on the river.

Michael Anderson (01:12:33):
Yeah, hopefully so.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:12:35):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes. I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon to help keep theprogram going, just go to
patreon.com/dean.klinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the

(01:12:55):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guidebooks forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast is written and producedby me Dean Klinkenberg. Original
Music by Noah Fence. See younext time you.