The Mississippi’s Forgotten People: Life on Shantyboats and the Margins of American Society

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A hundred years ago, shantyboat communities could be found along many rivers in the US. Historian Gregg Andrews went in-depth to research these communities, inspired in part by the discovery of a personal connection to them, which resulted in a book called “Shantyboats and Roustabouts: The River Poor of St. Louis, 1875 to 1930.” In this episode, I talk with Gregg about those shantyboat communities. After Gregg describes how he got interested in shantyboat communities, he describes what a shantyboat was and who lived in them, what it was like to live in one of these communities and their frontier-like culture, some of the characters he came across, including Louis Seibt and Rose Mosenthein, the legal basis shantyboaters used to defend their communities (often successfully), and their eventual dissolution. 

Episode Transcript

Gregg Andrews (00:00):
We were looking at just starting the research.

(00:02):
And Vikki was on the census,looking at the 1900s census. And
while I'm researching otherstuff, she said, Hey, Gregg,
come here. She was on amicrofilm reader. And she said,
look here, these are your peoplehere. And she says they live on
boats on the south side of theof Hannibal, and my jaw dropped.

(00:25):
And so that's where it allbegan. My interest in in

(00:53):
shantyboats.

Dean Klinkenberg (00:54):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and

(01:14):
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
information on the Mississippiat MississippiValleyTraveler.com
Let's get going.
Welcome to Episode 67 of theMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast. Well, I'm just backfrom spending much of the summer

(01:34):
touring Southern Africa, alifelong dream. I can't believe
we actually had a chance to dothis, but we spent six weeks
touring six different countriesin the southern part of the
continent, including Madagascarand South Africa. And if you
follow me on social media,you've seen some of the
pictures, and you're going tosee more. I'm still in the

(01:56):
process of sorting through those2000 or so photos and trying to
figure out how to post them in away that's interesting but not
overwhelming. So if you're notfollowing me on social media, I
suggest you go to Instagram inparticular. I'm Dean.Klink on
Instagram. You can find me veryeasily there, and there are
going to be a whole bunch ofposts coming up on that trip. I

(02:20):
might at some point do anepisode kind of reflecting on
that trip and and what it waslike to be in some of these
places that I've only seen onnature shows and seen so often
on nature shows, and to see someof these incredible animals in
person. Not going to do that inthis episode, but maybe at some
point down the road.
Today, though, I'm reallyexcited to bring you an episode

(02:41):
where I got to talk with GreggAndrews again. Gregg is a
historian. He was on a previousepisode all the way back in
episode four, he talked abouthis memoir, My Daddy's Blues,
which focuses on his childhoodgrowing up south of Hannibal,
Missouri, in the floodplain. Goback and listen to that one if
you get a chance. There's somegreat stories in there. Gregg

(03:02):
has spent a lot of his career,and especially in these later
years, writing about theMississippi and in this episode,
we focus on a book that hepublished two years ago called
'Shantyboats and Roustabouts,'and we focus just on the
shantyboat communities in thisparticular episode.
So we will cover how he gotinterested in shantyboats in

(03:23):
particular, which was sparked inpart by a surprise in his own
family history. We talk aboutwhat a shantyboat is and and who
actually lived on them, whatthose communities were like, and
some of the different sort ofprofessions represented on those
in those communities. We talkedabout some of the characters he
came across who lived in thosecommunities, including one whose

(03:45):
name is going to be familiar toSt Louis folks. And we talk a
little bit about the legalclaims that shantyboaters made
to living where they did and howthose stood up when they were
challenged, the sense that someof these communities that had a
bit of a frontier culture tothem, a little bit outside the
law in some ways, and outsidethe cultural norms of the day.

(04:09):
And then we talk about whathappened to eventually break
them up. In spite of multipleattempts to force these people
out, they always seem to comeback until they couldn't
anymore. So we talk about whatsort of led to the eventual
demise of these shantyvillecommunities.
Well, thanks to all of you whocontinue to show me some love
through Patreon, I deeplyappreciate your ongoing support

(04:32):
and to the new folks who haverecently signed up. Thank you
very much. You can join thiscommunity at
patreon.com/DeanKlinkenberg, andfor as little as $1 a month, you
get early access to theepisodes, plus you get my
eternal gratitude. If Patreonisn't your thing, you can buy me
a coffee. Go toMississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast,

(04:55):
and from there, you can find outhow to join the Patreon
community or how to buy me acoffee. You can also from that
same URL, you'll get access toall 66 previous episodes, as
well as the show notes for allof those and the show notes for
this one. And now let's get onwith the interview with Gregg.

(05:17):
Gregg Andrews is a distinguishedhistory professor emeritus at
Texas State University, a formerNational Endowment for the
Humanities Fellow, and a prizewinning author of eight books.
His research focuses on thecultural history of working
class people on the MississippiRiver. Born in Hannibal,

(05:39):
Missouri. He grew up in theriver hamlet known as "Monkey

Gregg Andrews (05:40):
Well, good afternoon, Dean. It's great to
Run," just south of the nearbyMark Twain Cave. He's also a
memoirist and singer songwriterwho fronts the swampy blues
band, Doctor G and the Mudcats.
He and his wife Victoria Bynumlive in Seguin, Texas. Welcome
to the podcast again. Gregg,great to have you back.

(06:07):
see you again and be back withyou to discuss the

Dean Klinkenberg (06:14):
Yeah, so let's talk. Let's just get right into
it. So you you've writtenmultiple books, and I'm a little
slow getting around to talkingwith you about the shantyboat
came about.
book, because I've had a pile ofthings to get through. But your
book, 'Shantboats andRoustabouts: The River Poor of
St Louis, 1875 to 1930." It waspublished almost two years ago

(06:35):
now. Tell us how you gotinterested in this topic.

Gregg Andrews (06:36):
Well, my interest is, first of all, I began as a
personal interest of mine,because in 1992 while working on
another book, City of Dust, Idiscovered that my grandmother
and her family, her mother andher mother all lived on
shantyboats on the south side ofHannibal, and I thought, Wow, I

(06:59):
you know, I mean, I knew wedidn't come from royalty, and I
had no idea that we, that we,that we came from, you know,
people who lived on theshantyboats in the river. And I
had written a little bit aboutshantyboats, but really didn't
know much at all about them. ButI filed that away back in 1992

(07:22):
and gradually over the years,when I had some spare time, I
would dig just a little bitdeeper into the shanty boat
world. And I think when I wrote,I wrote a childhood memoir back
in published in 2019, I made acommitment to myself at that
time to dig deeper into thethrough the waterways and other

(07:45):
Mississippi River and what lifemight have been like for my
grandmother. Now, she was achild when she lived on the
boat. But what amazed me wasthat, why didn't I know that. My
mother, who passed on every bitof gossip and anything, she knew
everything about the familyline, but interestingly, she

(08:08):
missed that. She never she toldme that, that her mother told
her there were people who livedon the river like that, but she
never said we're one of them,and so for and for that, and
maybe there was this. There wasa stigma attached to people who
lived on shantyboats at thetime, maybe for that reason. But

(08:32):
the point is, I never knew ituntil 1992.

Dean Klinkenberg (08:37):
How is it saying you figured out? How is
that you figured it out thatthat they lived on a shantyboat.
What were the clues that youfound?

Gregg Andrews (08:44):
Actually my wife, my wife Vikki, was with me in
Hannibal, and we were, we werejust starting, both of us
starting new books, and I waswriting on the history of
lIasco, which is just south ofHannibal. Monkey Run you
mentioned was a, was a, youmight call a suburb of Ilasco.
Monkey Run had about 100 peopleand but we were looking at just

(09:10):
starting the research, and Vickiwas on the census, looking at
the 1900s census. And while I'mresearching other stuff, she
said, Hey, Greg, come here. Shewas on a microfilm reader. And
she said, look here, these areyour people here. And she says
they live on boats on the southside of the of Hannibal. And my

(09:32):
jaw dropped. And so that's whereit all began. My interest in in
shantyboats.
Of course, I grew up on theriver there, south of Hannibal,
and I've loved the river fromthe time I was a child. It was
my playground, you might say.
Then in academic, in a world ofacademia, as I in my doctoral

(09:53):
work, I focused heavily on the.
A period of industrialization inthe United States, roughly from
1875 to about 1945. And so I wasespecially interested in, well

(10:15):
what was called Mark Twain andDudley Warner called the Gilded
Age, where there was just aphenomenal rise in wealth in
cities like St Louis. You cansee it there in Chicago, any
city at the time this rapidindustrialization. So I was

(10:35):
interested in looking at theunderside of the Industrial
Revolution, consistent with mymy interest in studying working
class people across raciallines, and so that that kind of
helped stoke the fire too forthe period. And of course,

(10:59):
growing up in the Hannibal area,you know, Mark Twain presence
was there. And I was especiallyinterested, you know, as you
know, his observations on theriver, like in Life on the
Mississippi, and in other otherpublications. I was particularly
interested in what he had tosay. He didn't take a very he

(11:21):
had a pretty dim view ofshantyboat people, because he
was looking at it from thestandpoint of a steamboat pilot,
you know. And on dark nights,the shanty boat, shanty boats
were supposed to have lights bylaw. But of course, in reality,
that often didn't happen. And soMark Twain had an experience

(11:43):
when he was a copilot, wherethey almost hit this Indiana
shantyboat on a dark side of anisland, and all of a sudden,
Twain said they heard all this,people cussing up a blue streak,
and the steamboat came there,almost, almost hit him, but they

(12:04):
could hear music playing down,you know, in within the shanty
boat and everything. And soonthey were all drinking heavily
and enjoying having a good time.
And so he wasn't particularlyfond of the shanty boat people,
from that, from that, you know,perspective, right?
So all in all, I think that thatmy interest in that area, and

(12:28):
the subject of shantyboats, youknow, derived from my family
primarily, but then it alsodovetailed into my own scholarly
interest, so that there wasn'tmuch work done on shantyboat
people. I found that out as ahistorian, and I was kind of
surprised by that, but, butanyway, that's when I really dug

(12:53):
in and started working on thebook.

Dean Klinkenberg (12:55):
What? Why did you select that period of 1875
to 1930 as the focus? That seemsvery specific.

Gregg Andrews (13:02):
Well, because of the things that I mentioned
before my grandmother that itwas 1900 when they were on the
census in in Hannibal. And, youknow, my scholarly interest,
research interests, were thestrongest in in that area. And I
think I cut it off in 1930mainly because it's there are
changes going on, rapid changeson the river, including a

(13:26):
network of dams that changes,that changes the lifestyle, and
in some ways, it puts almost atotal end to it. But because of
the Great Depression, you havepeople flocking to the
waterfronts, poor people. Itouched on a little bit I did. I

(13:52):
was afraid it would overextendme, so I stopped it pretty much
in 1930 but by then, for allpractical purposes, that world
of shantyboat living is over,except in, except in, I think in
the '50s you might you still hadit in St Louis in the 1950s and

(14:12):
in some cases, and parts ofKentucky and more rural areas,
especially, you could find theminto the '50s. And actually
today in different places,although the composition of
those shanty boat communitiesare very different than today,
than they were back then.

Dean Klinkenberg (14:30):
What exactly do we mean by a shantyboat? Can
you? Can you tell us a littlebit about what that means, what
it might look like?
Louis Seibt, well, he was theking of Little Oklahoma, you

Gregg Andrews (14:36):
Yeah,a shantyboat, it, of course, it
varied according to the wealthof the owner. I mean,the term
shanty boat was used, generallyby the newspapers of that period
as a way of denigrating thepeople who lived on those boats.
They were, you know, by andlarge, they were poor people. Um

(14:59):
, and some lived on theriverfront without pursuing a an
I, you know, an itinerantlifestyle. They lived on the,
for example, someone like in StLouis, they might rent a
shantyboat from a anothershantyboat owner. There were, I
found, you know people on the StLouis levee, especially, who

(15:22):
built boats for poor people likethat, and so they would sell
them. And you could, you couldprobably put yourself together a
shantyboat using logs out of theriver, using a variety of things
that that you you were able toget from the river and build a

(15:42):
boat, probably for about $20 atthat time. Now, some of them had
one window, some had twowindows, some had three and some
of them were really well to doboats. I mean, we'd say today,
maybe middle class, upper middleclass, maybe, who had those
boats and their lives centeredaround the river for a number of

(16:07):
reasons. You could have businessmerchants who operated on the
river, who traveled about,selling their goods, pulling
into the waterfronts of thedifferent towns and selling, you
know, everything that they couldcould, thought they could sell
in that boat. And so theystayed. You know, they would be
know, or the he was like themayor each of these colonies had

(16:31):
temporary people there, butthere are also permanent people
who lived there. Some of thembuilt lean-tos, and some were
called wig bombs, anything, anykind of crude sheltered, you
know, that that they could buildto live in cheaply they would.
But then you had the boats somemore, you know, expensive boats

(16:56):
in in that north in thecommunity of Little Oklahoma,
which is one of the ones thatfascinated me the most about,
about this project on shantyboats.

(17:20):
their own informal government.
You know, they chose kings ormayors, whatever it was like,
you know, urban areas, you know,the king of 52nd street, or
whatever that that that title.
The point is, they were the theywere, they were the bosses. And
if you had issues, complaints,neighborly, neighboring

(17:42):
complaints, any kind ofcomplaint you went to see
Captain Seibt, as it turned out,he was, as he was, a steamboat
by himself at one time. And hebuilt him a nice little, little
boat. He, you know, for years,had operated the liquor set had
provided liquor, and sometimesinside the law and sometimes

(18:05):
outside the law. You know, hebedeviled St Louis authorities
because he he got, he got a boatthat had some speed to it, and
so they would revoke hislicense. But he'd go out in the
middle of Mississippi, and thenpeople would in the shantyboats
would come out in their skiffs,you know, all every shanty boat

(18:26):
had some kind of a skiff, youknow. So that helps them move
around, give makes them moremobile. And they would paddle
out and buy, buy booze from,from, from him out in the river.
But he finally they, you know,he finally got his license and
everything and but he had anongoing battle with with St
Louis authorities over thatliquor license. But he was, he

(18:50):
was, he was a real character.
And I really came to, I reallycame to enjoy the research that,
you know, the that I did on him.
But he was an example, someonewho had, he was had more, not
wealth, but he had more money athis disposal. And he set up a

(19:11):
beer garden there where it wassandy, you know, and everything
he eventually, he's set up agrocery store and a beer garden
there. He had live music comingin there. You know, ragtime
blues. He was, I mean, it was ahopping place. If you lived on
the north wharf and close tolittle Oklahoma, if you don't

(19:33):
fear for your life, you'reprobably going to go down there
and enjoy life down there. And,you know, and there it was
rough. I mean, there's no hidingthat, as in, you know, there
were many fights down there. Ofcourse, there are many fights in
any in any bar.

Dean Klinkenberg (19:49):
It happened in bars far away from the river
too.

Gregg Andrews (19:56):
But, but there were distinctions in the in
between the boats. Based on, Ithink, based on your based on
how much money you had.

Dean Klinkenberg (20:03):
You mentioned it was primarily poor people,
but they were from what thedescription your book, it sounds
like it was the working poor forthe most part, right?
So describe alittle bit about the range of

Gregg Andrews (20:13):
Yes.
occupations you discovered forpeople who were working, who
were living down in some ofthese shady boat communities?
Well, that's agreat question. Some of them
worked on the railroad. Some ofthem worked in the lumber yards,
you know, nearby lumber yards.
Lot of them were fishermen, youknow, and they had their fish

(20:36):
flagged up, you know. And theywere well advertised and well
known in the area. You knowwhere people would come and buy
and buy their fish from them.
But I also found which reallyinterested me. You found a
sprinkling of doctors, medicalstudents, actors and actresses,

(21:02):
photographers and artists whotook to the river, you know, and
were part of these communitiesat various times. Now, again,
they would come and go, but, butthere was always a core there of
people who had been there awhile, and they were the ones
who, who, you know, who madeimprovements to their land. They

(21:26):
they fixed up their boats. Andsome of them looked like they
were, like a regular house insome places, you know, flowers
outside and everything and andunless you knew the river was
nearby, you would, you would notsay this house, this houseboat
or shantyboat, and people usethose terms, I think a little

(21:46):
differently. I use the termshanty boat as a way of
rejecting the pejorativetreatment of use of that term by
critics of the people who livethat lifestyle on the river,
some preferred to calling, youknow, houseboats. And of course,

(22:06):
later, if you think about awealthy person traveling down
the Mississippi River on a boat,you wouldn't call it a
shantyboat. You'd call it ahouseboat or a luxury liner or
something.

Dean Klinkenberg (22:20):
Right.

Gregg Andrews (22:22):
But you wouldn't call it a shantyboat that I from
what I could tell, and a lot oftimes, the people who were
called shantyboat peoplepreferred the term river people.
They thought it was morerespectful, and more respectful
and more reflective, I think, oftheir life.

Dean Klinkenberg (22:43):
What's interesting about that
distinction there, too, for me,in just thinking about this.
Probably the term shantycertainly had a connotation with
poverty, and maybe you ended upthere because you couldn't
afford any place else. But theway you're kind of describing
the variety of people who livethere too. It sounds like there

(23:04):
was more than one path to livingin these communities on the
river. It wasn't just becauseyou had no place else to go.

Gregg Andrews (23:12):
No, no. They made. They made. It was personal
choice. And so, I mean, Iremember many cases where they
were. They were interviewed bynewspaper reporters or travel
writers or whatever the case.
But they did not like in StLouis, they did not want to live
in the tenements where the ratinfested, you know, horrible

(23:33):
conditions, outdoor toilets thatused by everybody on the block,
you know that sort of thing, andthey preferred to be on the
river. Of course, there was a aprevailing view at the time in
the medical community that thefresh air cure was good for you.
Living out if you had anillness, go live out. Live out

(23:56):
on the river. It'll make youheartier and sturdier. In fact,
the the head of the healthagency there in St Louis. He
himself had a, course, it wasn'ta shantyboat. It was a much,
much nicer boat, you know, buthe endorsed that to the public.

(24:18):
So there's that feeling that Ican, I can be healthier if I
live here. I don't have to have,I don't have a landlord coming
around, bothering me all thetime. And I think, you know,
then people just who like, wholike, who love, the river. I
found so many you know, quotesfrom people who were

(24:42):
interviewed, talking about theywouldn't trade it for a mansion
on a hill, and that they feltsafe there. And of course, it
was dangerous. It was adangerous life, even looking at
it from a standpoint of nature,with you know, storms and
tornadoes coming through StLouis and other places along the

(25:06):
river. So, you know, it's ofcourse, ice gorge is one of the
main, one of the mostdestructive things, not just for
the shantyboat people, but, youknow, steamboats. Anybody along
the river who's, you know. So,you know, there were a lot of
dangers there, but I think that,but in many ways, it was a you

(25:29):
do have a lot of people who gothere as a last resort. It's, as
I say, is, it's the only safetynet when it was available to
them at that time.

Dean Klinkenberg (25:42):
If you're a person of limited means in 1900
and your choices are like thecrowded tenements, where you
maybe you're sharing bathroomswith 100 people or more, versus
having a shanty on the river,where at the very least, you
have your own room to yourselfon a floating.

Gregg Andrews (26:00):
Exactly.

Dean Klinkenberg (26:01):
It seems like like the the choices were, if
you could, if you could makethat choice, to go live on a
shanty on the river, that wouldprobably be preferable to many
of the tenements of the time.

Gregg Andrews (26:11):
Well, I I suspect that that if I had to make that
choice, I would have been on ariver. And I kind of know, I
kind of think you would too.

Dean Klinkenberg (26:19):
Absolutely, we'd be neighbors.

Gregg Andrews (26:20):
But one of the things Dean and I found
fascinating is that when, whenthe when the wealth began to
imitate the lifestyle of thepoorer shantyboat folks, they

(26:41):
the terms of the game change theterm that that I mean the they,
in effect, imitate thelifestyles of the shantyboat
people, but they do it with, youknow, a beautiful, luxurious
steamboat with an automobileboard, you know, so they can
roll off in downtown, stoppinganywhere they want, Memphis or

(27:01):
New Orleans and go see the sitesand, you know, go out on the
town a little bit. They did it.
And when they did it, it was allpraised. And so what had been
condemned before by many peoplewas this lifestyle on the
Mississippi River suddenlybecome chic.

Dean Klinkenberg (27:17):
Right. I remember, I think, like during
that same basic period of time,like the Mayo brothers, who
founded the Mayo Clinic inMinnesota, had a yacht on the
Mississippi as well during thatsame era. So.

Gregg Andrews (27:29):
Yeah, and some of them had made their wealth off
the river, you know. Some ofthem were lumber barons, you
know, up in Wisconsin and inMinnesota and in Iowa, you know.
And so they built these lavishboats, even as as the lumber
boom was basically had gonebust. It was, it was played out
by the by the 1890s and but theybuilt these luxury boats to

(27:53):
enjoy the river from thatperspective. And one of them, I
included the quote in there, buthe was, he described himself as
a jon boat man, you know, on ajon boat, on a jonny boat plan.
And then he linked himself tothe shantyboat people, of
course, tongue in cheek, but youknow, in in cities and other

(28:19):
towns along the way. Whathappens here during, oh, I'd say
by 1910 anyway, it's very muchunderway, is that the commercial
development of the riverfront ischanging things, changing the
rules of the game, and limitingthe lifestyles of the shantyboat

(28:41):
communities on the riverfront.
For one thing, they it'scommercial development, and they
want to you so you haveconflicts, a lot of conflicts
between the commercialdevelopers in the who were
interested in waterfront realestate, which became, of course,
quite expensive.

Dean Klinkenberg (29:03):
Hold that thought, because we'll come back
to like the what happened whenwe get a little further along.
But I want to go a little deeperinto what these communities
themselves were like. I mean,there were several clusters of,
let's say, river peoplecommunities, or shantyboat
communities, even in St Louis,you describe at least three or
four different communities,let's say like, if we had a time

(29:25):
machine and we could go back tolike, the peak of Little
Oklahoma, one of thosecommunities, and we were able to
visit that community. What mightbe we see? What would it what
would it be like? What would wesee in that community?

Gregg Andrews (29:42):
Well, I think you would see, for one thing, if you
were in northern if you were inLittle Oklahoma on the north
wharf, if you went there on aweekend, you're going to see a
lot of a lot of music and a lotof dancing. And there was a
culture that I came across thereI had never heard of before,
called a ragger culture. And ofcourse, these were the days of

(30:03):
ragtime. So ragtime explodes inSt Louis, but there's also this
other cultureWhat was where in which these

(30:26):
young people would had an outfitto wear. I mean, they had
certain ways of styling, youknow, and and they learned dance
routines. And so they becamevery popular in St Louis. Some
of them were parts of gangs, youknow. And they were, you know,
like, I don't know if you'refamiliar with zoot suit, you

(30:48):
know, the look of the of MexicanAmericans in the, you know, in
the '30s and, and how you woulddress. It was very hip. But
there were rival groups ofthese. You know, you're always
there. They were alwayscompeting for the who's going to
be the king and the queen of theraggers. And so this dance craze

(31:10):
originated right there, near thethe Louis Seibt's saloon in
Little Oklahoma. And suddenly, Imean it, it boomed so much that
they're in demand everywhere inSt Louis, out in the wealthy
suburbs on the West End, peopleare I remember the Republican
Party invited them to come andperform at at at political

(31:33):
meetings. And wealthy peopleout, you know, on the West End
would invite these young peopleto come and put on a show for
them, and they were performingthe attention of the public in

(32:09):
might be one of the bartendersfor Louis Seibt was the king of
the raggers. I can't recall hisname. I think it was John
Oliver, I believe. But anyway,he and his brother also worked
there, and so every Sunday, thiswas a hangout place for raggers.
So if you went there on a Sundayafternoon, you you'd be rubbing

(32:32):
in elbows, or, you know,drinking beer alongside these
groups. And there generally wasan edge to the competition, you
know, in terms of, you know,there, I remember in one case
that at Louis Seibt's saloonthere and in Little Oklahoma, a
rival gang came in and startedthe the the trash talk, we'd say

(32:58):
today, the banter and offendedthe bartender at Louis Seibt's
place, and so he pulled out hispistol and threw him out. And so
of course, they came back andretaliated. He had he shot up
Louis Seibt's saloon, and oneinjury,

(33:24):
going to go there and enjoybecause you're just a one little
bit of edginessthink mainly it's a it's a life,
you know, in terms of theshantyboat life. Let's to be

(33:46):
realistic, a lot of is spenttime. Your time is spent looking
for wood in planning for winter,unless you are one of the long
trippers as a writer, travelwriter, call them at that time,
unless you are part of thismigration that takes place from
the north to the south in the inthe fall, and then it comes back

(34:10):
in spring, unless you're part ofthat. If you're going to stay in
places in a cold what coldweather was? You know,
Minnesota, especially Minnesota,Wisconsin, Iowa, but St Louis,
even St Louis, you better have apretty good wood supply. And you
better have, you know, a goodfood supply stocked up. You do a

(34:34):
lot of fishing, you know, out ona river and but you did, I
think, you know, it became verydifficult. There were often
people who died in thecases, you know, but there was a

(34:55):
sense of in all thosecommunities, and by the way,
some of these were raciallyintegrated waterfront
communities, and that sort ofsurprised me when I first
started doing this project.

(35:16):
I know in some areas you had allwhite shantyboat communities and
others. You had a mixture withmaybe black residents in
majority, like on Dock Street atthe foot of Dock Street in St
Louis and then other ones werewhites would be in the dot would
be the dominant group. But youalso had black people living in

(35:41):
there. And this doesn't meanthat there weren't racial
tensions or anything like that.
I don't want to suggest that,but it happened enough to where
it got the attention of1898 and for a few years that
ragger culture was was was stillnewspapers who blasted it. They
condemned the shanty. Theywanted the authorities to go in
there and break it up becausethey were racially integrated.

(36:04):
And I found, I think that wasone of the more surprising
things that you know, this isthe 1890s and nine, early 1900s
and if you look around thecountry, I mean, this is the era
of legal segregation andviolence against against African
Americans. And yet, in thesecommunities, you find kind of an

(36:28):
alternative that might be tooyou know I found later on, I
think it was around 1930 thesetwo uh, roustabouts, black
roustabouts were interviewed.
This is coming, of course, atthe tail end of the period that
I look at, and just at thebeginning of the Great

(36:52):
Depression. And I thought it wasreally interesting when one of
them named, well, one of themwas named, was Mule, and that
each, each roustabout, you know,had a nickname of some sort.
And so they were getting theywere older. And so they look
back and told the story abouthow the how the St Louis

(37:16):
waterfront got started, andthere, to make it a very long
story short, they, they said, inthe beginning, a black man and a
white man came down here and setup some kind of a living shanty
and lived together. And then itgot to be so popular that it

(37:36):
grew and then the authoritiescame in, basically, is what he
said, and put that to an end.
And, and I thought that was aninteresting way of expressing a
kind of a class identity acrossracial terms. There, you know,
in St Louis, of course, by thetime they were interviewed, the
waterfront was looked deserted.

(38:01):
You know, it was just a fewsteamboats coming and no steady
work for the roustabouts. Poolhalls have been shut down. The
places small, black, middleclass establishments that you
know, serve food everything,they're disappearing because
that lifestyle is, is, you know,is disappearing. And of course,

(38:25):
later we know, you know, in the30s, St Louis turns on its own
history, and blast literallyblasted up that part of its
history, that area.

Dean Klinkenberg (38:36):
Talk about erasing history.

Gregg Andrews (38:37):
Right, right, right. That's the way they did
it. Yeah, it got rid of allthose waterfront apartment
houses and everything, you know,where poor people lived and
enjoyed their life thereculturally as best they could,
you know, in a limited way.

Dean Klinkenberg (38:57):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting
myself. Just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guide books for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also write
the Frank Dodge mystery seriesthat is set in places along the
Mississippi. My newest book, TheWild Mississippi, goes deep into

(39:22):
the world of Old Man River.
Learn about the varied andcomplex ecosystem supported by
the Mississippi, the plant andanimal life that depends on
them. And where you can go toexperience it all. Find any of
these wherever books are sold.
So from what you're what you'vebeen describing to me too. I
can't help but think, like a lotof what you're describing about

(39:43):
the life of the communities, thepeople living the shantyboat
communities, it has a realfrontier. Feel to me, like kind
of outside the normal laws andconventions people, the people
in the city in particular, kindof left them alone for long
periods of time until it becameinconvenient for them or for a

(40:04):
developer. But is that accurate?
Was it kind of a frontier kindof place, in a way, in a sense?

Gregg Andrews (40:10):
I think so. And in fact, I think I make the case
in the in the book, that many ofthe people here in the 19th
century, especially, they clungto frontier customs and frontier
ways, frontier folklore, interms of of of their own status,

(40:35):
their own right to to live alongthe waterfronts here in, you
know, no matter the town or thecity or the rural area. Yeah, I
think they, I think that that,that feeling the presence of the
frontier was, you know, was wasstrong there with them. And I
think they kind of represent, ineffect, I mean, you know, in the

(40:57):
early 1890s the the frontier wasannounced that it was formally
closed by the United Statesgovernment, that we had settled
every part of the country withinthe continental boundaries, and
that it was closed. And I think,but, but it certainly didn't
close in terms of the cultureand customs of of people you

(41:21):
know, who pursued, who pursuedthis lifestyle, riparian rights.
I mean, they, they, they.
I mean, it's such a fascinatinglegal thing. You know, when you,
when I began to dig into thesecases, you had a three cornered

(41:42):
legal fight. Fights going on inmany cases you have a private
owner. Let's say you had to useSt Louis, but you could use any
town, a private owner who ownswaterfront land but lives in
Louisville, Kentucky orsomewhere else, absentee
landlords. But what happens tothat piece of land over the

(42:05):
years is the river changescourse. You get land accretions.
If, and this happeneddramatically in East St Louis,
the river because of dikes, thenew dikes, it changes its
course. And so a person who wason a riverfront one day might

(42:27):
be, there might be a half milenow between him and the
shoreline. You see what I mean,and then, yeah, so now he owns
land there. That land is nowthere. That wasn't there when he
when he set up shop. And sothese legal battles go on. You
have landowners, private owners,trying to they'll invoke, you

(42:53):
know, riparian rights, to try tolay claim to that to that
property. But in other cases,they oppose it when the
shantyboat people claim riparianrights to occupy even a small
part of a of a little islandthat just popped up. You know,
over the last year or so and sothen you have the municipal
authorities trying to sort allthis out, and along the St Louis

(43:18):
waterfront that the ownership ofthe waterfront was like a patch.
Was like a patchwork quilt.
You'd have for a mile and ahalf, maybe coming down from the
north shore you'd have a privateowner owning that, and then the
next mile and a half, you've gotthis municipal authorities only
owning it, but you also haveshanty boat people in there, and

(43:42):
so there's these complicatedlegal issues that have to be
sorted out.

Dean Klinkenberg (43:50):
Right. And you describe that in the book quite
a bit too. It seemed a lot ofthe shantyboaters believed they
had a legal right to live wherethey lived, right?

Gregg Andrews (43:58):
That That's right, they did. And many cases
they did. And when they went tocourt, they won. You know,
again, depends on the cases.
There was one case, Dean, and Iremember they wanted them out of
the city, St Louis, wanted themout of that area. And half the
boat was on half the boat was onland that belonged to the city,

(44:23):
but the other half did notbelong to the city. And in
frustration, I think theengineers at St Louis threw up
their hands and said, Well, gosaw the boat in half if they
don't get out. You know. And butso they endorsed violence
against them too. That's it.

(44:44):
Little Oklahoma went throughthat. It was a it was an awful,
awful scene that I described inmy book. And the St Louis
reporter who went down there washorrified at what he saw, but
they the police used waterfrontgangs to go in and. And force
these people out and and theycame through there with the

(45:04):
vengeance, tearing, taking foodand throwing, you know, whatever
they could do to destroy. That'swhat they did. And there was a
case of an old woman there whoall they, they destroyed
everything she had. And they thereporter at the last of the
story, reported seeing herwalking off crying with her dog.

(45:27):
The only possession she had inher entire life now was that
little dog,

Dean Klinkenberg (45:32):
Right.

Gregg Andrews (45:33):
And it was, it was brutal, you know, St Louis
police, that's the way they didthings back then, you know? And
they they stood by and watched,and the waterfront gangs went
through there and destroyed itfor them.

Dean Klinkenberg (45:47):
So they basically found a way to
encourage those gangs to go andransack the houses so the police
themselves wouldn't get theirhands dirty. But they didn't do
anything to stop them, either,after they'd encouraged them to
go ransack.

Gregg Andrews (45:59):
That's right, and although, you know, I couldn't
prove it, but there's no doubt aquid pro quo there somewhere.
Yeah, the police are going to dosomething nice for the you're
going to let the gang carry onthis activities, you know, not
hassle them, whatever the case.
But yeah, that the peoplebelieve they had a right to it.

(46:21):
In some cases, they claimed theyhad paid for it, bought it from
a previous owner who was ashyster and stiffed them. You
know, many of these people wereilliterate and they but they
claimed they had title to it andthey could prove it, but they
didn't have a written copy proveit. So it didn't matter how many

(46:43):
people they brought in for to,you know, to do, to act as they
were, on their behalf, aswitnesses. They don't have the,
they don't have the legal paper,you know, to prove it. The, one
of the things that I, you know,the Mount Pleasant Baptist
Church. I found a church on thewaterfront in St Louis that was

(47:05):
predominantly it consistedpredominantly of black members,
but it was racially integrated.
Several white people that I wasable to confirm you know, went
to church there, but a lumbercompany wanted them out of
there. They piled up in a dealthey worked out with the city,

(47:27):
obviously, they piled up garbageall around the church and and
finally, the an attorney, anattorney, took the case and they
forced it into that harassmentby by it turned out the lumber,
the owner of the lumber company,did not have the legal right to
that particular stretch of stripof land, so he could not, he

(47:50):
could not pursue it legally anyfurther. So you can imagine the
the antagonisms and thefrustrations, you know.

Dean Klinkenberg (47:59):
Right. What do you. You mentioned that the term
shantyboater was kind of was aninsult, basically, you know, the
way it was used initially, andthere was clearly some deep
hostility directed at people whowere living in these
communities. So what's behindthat? Why were they the subject
of so much harassment andnegative feelings?

Gregg Andrews (48:24):
Yeah, that's a great that's a great question,
and one that I'm not sure I cangive a definitive answer to, but
I can suggest some things Ibelieve. You know, first of all,
they were poor people, and youknow, you it's facing every
society, there is contempt for aportion of its population that's

(48:45):
impoverished. Now, there's oftena association with crime, you
know, in the in the in with withthese groups, with poor people
in general. And while certainlythere's crime, you can, you can
look in these riverfrontcommunities and find plenty
examples of crime, but I thinkaround 1907 it was a St Louis

(49:09):
police officer admitted publiclythat there wasn't any more
dangerous, any more criminalelement, any more criminal
elements there than there was inother parts of the city. But it
just that it getssensationalized. And you know,
people who lived along theriver, farmers, for example, the

(49:31):
people would come down theriver, you know, in their boats
float and later some of them putin motorboats. You know, with
their shantyboat homes, installthose boats, install those
motors. But for the most part,they floated by and they had to
tie up and stay wherever theytied up, they stayed for the
night. And some peoplecomplained that they were
stealing their chickens. And nodoubt, somebody did once, you

(49:54):
know, grabbed a chicken or orfew ears of corn or something,
you know, they lived, in otherwords, in many cases, it was a
subsistence kind of survival forthe shantyboat people, not, not
always so. And then that getsblown out of proportion, and
then newspapers began toadvertise it. And so people, in

(50:16):
their minds, start associating,associating crime with
shantyboat people. And I thinkthat, you know, that has a lot
to do with it, but it's also avery, you know, it's a culture
or a subculture, you might sayit's very much at odds with
gilded age society. I mean, youknow, this is a time when people

(50:39):
are their lives are becomingmuch more highly regimented
because of the IndustrialRevolution, it's that those
sound of the whistle that youknow the at the workplace, the
factory, whistles and where yougo in and you you report to work

(50:59):
at a certain time, and you staythere until a certain time.
shantyboat life was verydifferent from that. You did
things on your own time when youwanted to do them and where you
wanted to do it. And it was apre industrial I associated with
the pre industrial work rhythms.
I think, you know, many peopleassociated them with just being

(51:23):
lazy, shiftless, same kind ofstereotypes that were applied to
African Americans at the time,that you can find the same kind
of stereotypes in terms beinghurled at shantyboat people as
pejorative terms. So that, Ithink that you know, for those

(51:44):
you know people, some peoplewould you know, if you have to
work eight to five, you mightresent somebody who seems to you
know, have your have yourmoonshine with you, and fish a
little bit fish, it looks likerecreation, to a person who's an
eight to fiver.

Dean Klinkenberg (52:03):
Right.

Gregg Andrews (52:05):
And, you know, growing up on the river, I
there's nothing I'd rather dothan fish. And but, but to
someone looking on who'sresentful that they have to do
work, you know, for 12 hours aday, let's say, well, people are
fancy foot and, you know, footloose and fancy free I mean, so

(52:30):
there's, you know, that kind ofresentment that, just in a way,
is jealousy. But I one of thethings that I found about
newspaper coverage is there'salso a grudging admiration for
the people who lived on theriver. I've seen it many cases
there and doing research. Whilethey condemn it, there's still a

(52:51):
kind of a lurid fascination. Youknow. What? What's it like down
there on particularly in theareas of where that you have
black roustabouts of black,black shantyboat dwellers, and
you go, what's it like to godown there, you know, as a white
person, and go in there andenjoy some ragtime music or

(53:13):
blues, have a few drinks and bea part of that world. What's it
like down there? And so I thinkfor that reason too, there's,
there's a kind of a fascinationwith the lifestyle, a pre
modern, we might call it a premodern lifestyle.

Dean Klinkenberg (53:36):
It does kind of seem like, yeah, that has to
be part of what was driving theattitudes is, in some ways, it's
a fundamental rejection of themainstream culture, you know,
the that, like you said, thelong day routines, you know, the
even like the racial hierarchy,is broken down to a large degree
on the in these riverfrontcommunities. So it's, it a

(54:00):
pretty broad rejection ofmainstream culture of the day.

Gregg Andrews (54:06):
And keep in mind also, Dean, you know, at this
point in time, theindustrialists need they need
labor and for the factories. Andof course, we turn overseas to
get that labor. Southern andEastern European immigrants in
particular, in that period.
But the note, there's apreventing notion that these

(54:28):
people need to be at worksomewhere, you know, that the
shanty boat people, they shouldbe working, you know, and not
spending their idle time, youknow, drifting around, you know,
on the river and fishing anddrinking and all that, all that
kind of stuff. So there that,there's that that factor as
well, I think, the need for theneed for labor, and I think, you

(54:51):
know, it's important to pointout, because I don't want to
leave the impression of likethat. Many of them have held
jobs. In Pittsburgh, forexample, many steel workers and
others in the factories ofPittsburgh lived on the
waterfront, and that because itwas cheaper and because they

(55:16):
enjoyed the river. And so youfind that where wherever you go,
it's but many of them travel.
They were workers, but they wereitinerant workers. So you could
have someone who, let's say,lived in any anywhere up north
or even St Louis, but whotravels south in the winter,

(55:37):
maybe to Tennessee or maybe toArkansas, where you holed up and
fish and hunt. You know, for thewinter, you take your shotguns
and everything and go, you know,you live on, on on on meat and
other things to eat, but you doit in a warmer climate, so you
avoid some of the pitfalls thatthat, I think that, that factor,

(56:00):
you know, is, is there, andthey, they would go, you
know...what do you call them?
Well, smokestack painters,highly specialized job.

Dean Klinkenberg (56:17):
Yeah.

Gregg Andrews (56:19):
You know, and a very dangerous one. You could
find smokestack painters inMinneapolis traveling all the
way down to New Orleans andworking at every town and city
where there where there was aneed for them. And then they go
back and return in the springand do it all over again the

(56:39):
next year. The lumber, thelumber industry in cypress
swamps of Louisiana, Red RiverValley, that they drew labor
from, from from the north. Theycame down on shantyboats
sometimes, and spent the winterdown there working in the
cypress camps. And then go backto Aberdeen, Ohio, or wherever

(57:03):
it was, and then go back andwork on the farms in the spring.
So you have that itinerantworking class that that I was, I
was, I was not aware of, I neverthought about it in that way.
But that's what they're doing.
They're providing labor atdifferent places, usually lumber
camps somewhere, you know,somewhere along the line, and

(57:24):
lumber camps in the south, andthen they go back. So I found
that particularly fascinating.

Dean Klinkenberg (57:33):
Yeah, there's so many stories there. It makes
I'm kind of mindful the timehere a little bit too. And I
want to ask you one other sortof question about this, you
mentioned Sebit, Mayor Seibt,the informal mayor of Little
Oklahoma. Are there other werethere? Is there one other
character or so from theshantyboat communities whose

(57:54):
story really struck you or stoodout to you in any particular way?

Gregg Andrews (57:59):
Oh, yes, many of them. But I'll just say one. I
came across the I think youespecially appreciate this that
you've written on regattas andracing contests on the
Mississippi. But I found a youngwoman who was the sculling

(58:22):
champion of America. And infact, she became the sculling
champion of the world in StLouis, living in Little
Oklahoma. And I was just, I didan article for her and Gateway,
Gateway Heritage, I just soappreciated her story, and to

(58:44):
make it, to shorten it, youknow, her family, her mother,
came to the area as a singlewoman with several children who
had she was divorced or herhusband had died, and she came
to the north shore of St Louisand set up there. She had her

(59:05):
mother had been married to aphysician, a surgeon, an army
surgeon in Kansas. I believe itwas after the end of their their
marriage. I think he actuallydeserted the family, I think.
And the last was last seen inCalifornia in a Veterans Home
years later, but, but she takesher children and goes ends up in

(59:29):
St Louis on the waterfront. Shebegins to use her knowledge of
medicine, which she gained fromobserving. She was from
Switzerland originally, and shebegan to apply what she knew and
treat to treat people in theseshantyboat communities where she
lived. And of course, themedical authorities found out

(59:52):
about it and they shut her down.
But she went to, are youfamiliar with Mosenthein Island
today?

Dean Klinkenberg (59:59):
Oh yeah, I'm very familiar with that. Yeah,
I've been there.

Gregg Andrews (01:00:02):
Well, well, I knew you had, well, that's,
that's where she set up shop.
And she went to that island andset up. They built a farmhouse
there and everything. And shewith her, with the help of her
family, several children, theyplanted crops on there, and did
quite well. Now, of course, whenfloods came, it was rough, and

(01:00:24):
she said that later said that, Ithink that one of her daughters
said that she had to, waspregnant there at the time, and
had to they were stranded on topof that house for like three
days before the water waterlevels receded, but that became
very valuable piece of realestate and and you can imagine

(01:00:47):
what happens.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:00:52):
Yeah.

Gregg Andrews (01:00:54):
Real estate developers from St Louis and the
steel interest over across thisriver in Granite City, they are
eyeing that island and they wanther off. And so it goes to court
battle. It's a long story, butit goes to court and there's a

(01:01:14):
legal battle that goes on. Buteventually the the Mary
Mosentheim was her name. Shemoved off the off the island
they are, made a deal with herfinally, and arranged for her to
have a house over near the Chainof Rocks on the Missouri side.

(01:01:34):
And she she gave in. But herdaughter, Rose, was the one who
was just fascinating. She livedin that Little Oklahoma. She
became known as a great rower,and just from rowboats on the
Mississippi and back then, ofcourse, all the rowing clubs
were male dominated. You couldnot join a rowing club if you

(01:01:57):
were a woman, but one of themale rowers took her under his
wings and taught her, this, theskill of sculling, you know,
which I would never make it in asculling boat. I tip that over
so fast, but you know, thefeathered oars and everything.

(01:02:18):
They trained her, and somehow,through context, they set up a
match between her and andsomeone from New England,
Connecticut, I think they said.
They billed this as thechampionship, you know, the
sculling championship ofAmerica. And Mosenthein won,
beat her out on one of the oneof the lakes there, I forget now

(01:02:46):
which one, but she she in apreliminary match. She beat her
out there, but her opponentblamed it on to certain
conditions and this and that.
And so when it came down to themain race from up around the I
believe it was around theMerchants Bridge, all the way

(01:03:07):
down to the Eads bridge,somewhere down there. She won.
In fact, the other one gave uphalfway along the way. She was
she was already beaten. And sothen they had a match in Austin,
Texas, on Lake Austin, and shewon that. And they tried to,

(01:03:27):
they the opposing and they had arematch there. And in the
opposing the opposing corner,they sent someone to try to
bribe Rose Mosenthein intothrowing that match, and she,
she, she refused it and laterexposed it. But she won that

(01:03:49):
match too and became theinternational skilling champ,
women's sculling champion. Ijust, and sadly, she died of
tuberculosis before she turned40, I think. But she hung out
afterward, and, you know, gavetips to the people who wanted to
learn to row or skull or swim.

(01:04:09):
She was a great athlete, andwhatever it was, there's a
picture of her in my my bookthat I found in Frank Leslie's
Weekly magazine, 1895 and Vikki,my wife, did an amazing likeness
of her that that I was able toinclude in the book, because the

(01:04:30):
original photo was not up tospeed for including in a
publication. But thanks toVikki, who is not only a
historian, but she's also agreat artist, she did that
drawing for me based on thepicture that she saw in Frank
Leslie's magazine. And so Ithink that that that was

(01:04:50):
probably one of the mostimportant characters that
grabbed my attention, and I wasalways interested in I never
found out an answer to thisquestion. I mean, I was able to
make contact with someone, adistant relative, of the family,
the Mosenthein family, and I hadcommunications with with one of

(01:05:14):
them, and she was very helpfuland very interested in
everything. And then her dadstill had some papers, she said
that showed his claim throughthat to the riverfront, that
they were able to hang on tothat piece of property in Little
Oklahoma. And I always wonderhow that, where that got

(01:05:36):
flipped, how it got went from inthe hands of the Mosenthein
family out of the hands and Icontacted him. Heard him through
his I believe it was through hisgranddaughter, but I never heard
from him anymore at some point.
I don't know if they had coldfeet about being for whatever
reason, but I felt bad aboutthat because I wasn't able to

(01:05:59):
complete that story about whathappened to their property, but
it was a, it was a, you know,the family story was a
compelling one, and it caught myattention right away.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:11):
Well, in that that island has such an
important spot at the for thepaddling community around St
Louis now too. There are a lotof people who would love to go
deeper into that story of theMosenthein family.

Gregg Andrews (01:06:23):
Weren't they considering at one time putting
an airport in over there?

Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:26):
Yeah, but it was more around Columbia
Bottoms, where the ColumbiaBottoms it was that area, yeah.

Gregg Andrews (01:06:33):
It's a fascinating story. I mean, you
know, I think especially forpeople in St Louis, you know
who, who use the river forrecreation and sport?

Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:45):
Absolutely.

Gregg Andrews (01:06:46):
Yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:06:47):
So these, these communities, had amazing
resilience over time, and therewere multiple attempts to break
them up, and it seemed likepeople always found a way to
come back and reestablish them,until they didn't, until, like,
around that 1930ish time point.
So what changed? What happenedthat finally got rid of these
communities altogether?

Gregg Andrews (01:07:08):
Well, several things, I think, and I've
alluded to a few of them, Ithink, earlier in our
conversation today. But I thinkthe the dramatic
commercialization of the StLouis riverfront and other
riverfronts there. There were,because you could look in
Davenport, Iowa, Hannibal, myhometown, any other place in the

(01:07:32):
cities, there are attempts asgroups like boat boating clubs
and others they want to givethey think it's an eyesore to
where they're trying to set upon the marina and everything,
and they want these peoplethrown out of there. And so they
tried different ways, legally.
They tried, you know, they triedusing force extra legally. But I

(01:07:55):
think that that that had a lotto do with it, along with the
rapid development of real estatethat owned by private hands
along the waterfront, and at thesame time, you know that The
river, the river the river ischanging. The use of the river

(01:08:21):
is changing. You find morerecreational boats, you know,
motorboats, speedboats, regattasgrowing on a river, but, but
they're crowding out theseshantyboat communities to a
certain extent. And then, Ithink in the '30s, the the
establishment of dams on networkof dams on the Mississippi

(01:08:46):
really, really helped curtailthat kind of river traffic. You
know, it's really sad to metoday. You look, we would look
out the river today. I mean,hey, I take my hometown of
Hannibal. There's not a wholelot going on out there on the
river. You know, it's hard tobelieve that, at one time, that

(01:09:07):
that river was a busy, busy,busy place. And now, I don't
know if you've have are familiarwith Rinker Buck the he's a
travel writer,

Dean Klinkenberg (01:09:24):
Yeah.

Gregg Andrews (01:09:26):
Have you read his book on on what's it called? I
reviewed it about three yearsago.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:09:34):
Is that "Life on the Mississippi?"

Gregg Andrews (01:09:36):
Life on the Mississippi. Yeah, yeah. Same
title as Mark Twain's. Sametitle but different subtitle.
Have you read that by chance?

Dean Klinkenberg (01:09:44):
I have not.
It's in my stack.

Gregg Andrews (01:09:47):
It's, it's a very good book. It's not, you know,
it calls it epic something, butyou know how that's marketing
material. But it's, you know, hebuilt his, he built the
shantyboat, and he went back. Hestudied a lot of the early
accounts about about the era,you know, between, let's say,
1800 and 1860 and but he, it'san interesting story. He

(01:10:11):
assembles his own crew, andthat's part of the funny story,
you know. But he gradually workshis way down to New Orleans, and
he has a lot to say aboutcontemporary with the
contemporary changes on theriver, you know? And this was in
the year of Donald Trump,course, and he didn't have a lot

(01:10:31):
that's good to say, but a lotabout the pollution, the
pollution of the river, and thecommercial development over over
commercialization of the river,and what that's led to and, you
know, but it's, I think thatlooking back today, you know, of

(01:10:52):
course, we use, we use the riverfor fishing and motorboats and
everything, but, but it's notnearly as busy a place as it
was. I don't think it was nearlyas busy now is now, than it was
when I was a child, and we woulduse the river for water skiing
and duck hunting and fishing andjust drinking beer, you know,

(01:11:14):
and being out on the river, Idon't, I don't really see that
today. Maybe I'm missing. Idon't live, you know, on the
river anymore. So maybe it'sthere and I don't see it. But it
seems to me that eventually, thecommercial development of the of
the waterfront all alongMississippi, have, you know,

(01:11:36):
they contributed to putting anend to that kind of lifestyle of
shantyboat people, although youfind, you know, you can still
find shantyboat there. Well,they don't call that, but San
Francisco, usually these aremaybe some old hippies, you
know, who just rejected thewhole life of what we call
bourgeois lifestyle and live outthere. And, you know. Or in some

(01:12:02):
cases, there are very wealthycommunities who have, you know,
you know, up in Minnesota, andplaces where it's like, you
know, they work things out withthe authorities somehow, but
they don't, they don't botherthem, but they have to comply
with certain regulations, youknow. So you can still find
people who live, who prefer tolive on the river, you know, and

(01:12:23):
you've lived on it, in a sense,for, for many years, not in that
same capacity, but, but, but,you know, there's, they're still
there.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:12:35):
Yeah. Well, you know, certainly the
boathouse community at Winona,Minnesota, Latsch Island.
That's, you know, a small numberof people who live there year
round. They're kind of thedescendants of the shantyboat
community. Well, spiritually,the way they live too. So there,
but it is much harder, and I dothink probably you're right to
the assertive control of thefederal government of the

(01:12:58):
Mississippi as a shippingcorridor, beginning of the with
the lock and dam system. It goesit was earlier than that too for
flood control as well. But asthe federal government took more
and more assertive control overmanaging the river, building
levees, managing a navigationchannel, I think it became they
they actively worked todiscourage people from actually
living on the river too, inthose kinds of boats. So,.

Gregg Andrews (01:13:21):
Right. I don't know Dean, if you're familiar
with, do you know who Wes Modesis?

Dean Klinkenberg (01:13:25):
I do know Wes, yes.

Gregg Andrews (01:13:27):
Okay, you know, you know, personally,

Dean Klinkenberg (01:13:28):
Yeah.

Gregg Andrews (01:13:29):
You know what he's, what his project's all
about. I'm just gonna mentionthat in case, yeah, I find his
project, you know, particularlyfascinating. I don't know he's
he's made a lot of, he's drawn alot of publicity this, this,
this summer, again, you know,down in Louisiana and different
places. And I know you know whathis objective is, as you as you

(01:13:50):
do. And I don't know if he everintends to put out a book on it,
but he's just, he'll, he'll getyou, if he does, it'll give us
some interesting glimpses intocontemporary life along the
river, and people'sperspectives. And I think he was
particularly interested in, youknow, in in alternative
communities and and and peoplefrom indigenous backgrounds, you

(01:14:14):
know, in particular. But anyway,I thought I mentioned him in
case, because I look forward toseeing what results of this are
going to be.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:14:22):
So we'll just prod him and shame him publicly.
Now, he's got to produce a bookor something based on all that
he's created, right?

Gregg Andrews (01:14:29):
Well, I know in the beginning he said, he said
he was going to produce a book.
So I, you know, I but that wasabout probably 11 years ago,
when I first made contact withI've never met him. Actually, we
were supposed to meet up inHannibal that summer, but he, I
think he had some problems withthe boat or something, and he
never made it down that farsouth. He might have gotten to

(01:14:52):
the Quad Cities, maybe.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:14:57):
Yeah, I think I got to hang out with him on
his boat too. Uh, on that firsttrip. I think it was, I'd hate
to think how many years ago itwas. Maybe it was 11 years ago.
It was around Brownsville,Minnesota.

Gregg Andrews (01:15:08):
I think I didn't realize that. That's great.
Yeah, that was 2014 I'm prettysure that date is right, because
we were living in Hannibal atthe time.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:15:17):
All right.

Gregg Andrews (01:15:18):
We were still there, yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:15:21):
Well, Gregg, thank you so much for your time
and sharing the stories again.
The book is "Shantyboats and

Roustabouts (01:15:27):
The River Poor of St Louis, 1875 to 1930" by Gregg
Andrews. Gregg, if people wantto follow your work, know more
about you. Where would youdirect them to go?

Gregg Andrews (01:15:39):
Well, I have a I have a WordPress blog. It's all
one word, LostRiverStories.com.
and so if I'm in between books,sometimes I'll post news stories
on there that I didn't includein my books and but it's a good
way to catch up with me. I thinkmy all my personal contact
information is, is on that site.

(01:16:04):
I'm also on Facebook, under myunder, Gregg Andrews. So those,
those two places would beprobably the best place to get a
hold of me.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:16:16):
All right, I will post a link in the show
notes to that blog and that youwant to just quickly mention the
new book you have coming out.

Gregg Andrews (01:16:24):
Yes, thanks, Dean. I've gone back to my
hometown, and you know, myhometown has been good to me,
especially a little strip ofland from about from Hannibal
down to Monkey Run, about threemile strip, that's been my
cultural muse, you might say.
And I, as a songwriter, so muchof my material comes from those

(01:16:48):
river roots.
But I've decided to go back andwrite a history of the it's
called "Shoe Workers inHannibal, Missouri, the Rise and
Fall of Manufacturing inAmerica's Hometown from 1890 to

(01:17:08):
1970" and my mother worked in ashoe factory. About every every
working class person in Hannibaldid at some point in time. The
International Shoe Company,which was centered in St Louis
and I'm writing a history of theshoe workers and their fate in

(01:17:30):
the 20th century, and theirstruggles and struggles in a lot
of different ways, but the riverwas a part of the culture. So it
was it wasn't uncommon to seeunions chartering boats for
dances. And, you know, Moonlightcruises on the Mississippi for

(01:17:51):
the for the shoe workers. Andanyway, it's taken me home. The
book has taken me home. It willbe out in in the spring with LSU
Press in Baton Rouge, and I'mreally looking forward to it. It
may be the last book that Iwrite in terms of research. It's

(01:18:13):
getting harder physically for meto do that kind of work, and I
might turn to something that'smore personal and in the way of
a memoir. I've been a diabeticfor 56 years, and I've been I've
been writing some on that. Youknow, in case other people, old

(01:18:34):
school diabetics, might be outthere listening and wanting to
read. So something that putstogether my my private, my
personal development and thenwith diabetes.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:18:47):
Well, great.
I'm sure it'll be a great read.
I mean, I really enjoyed readingthe Shantyboats book and My
Daddy's Blues. Your your memoirfrom your childhood growing up
in Monkey Run. You write well,you tell good stories. The books
are well researched, so I lookforward to seeing what what you
put out there next.
Unfortunately, my stack is sobig, it might take me two years,
but. Gregg, thanks again.

Gregg Andrews (01:19:11):
You have your own research and you've always got a
lot of irons in the fire too. Iknow you.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:19:18):
It's a big fire. So. Well. Thanks so much
for talking with us today,Gregg. I really appreciate it,
and good luck with your work.

Gregg Andrews (01:19:27):
Thank you very much, Dean, it was good to see
you and talk to you again. Byebye.

Dean Klinkenberg (01:19:33):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes, I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon to help keep theprogram going, just go to
patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the

(01:19:53):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guide books forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley Traveler
podcast is written and producedby me Dean Klinkenberg. Original
Music by Noah Fence.