June 18, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode, we continue our detour along the Missouri River with part 2 of my conversation with Steve Schnarr from Missouri River Relief. In part two, Steve describes the process the Corps of Engineers used to channelize the river, how it changed the river, what we lost, and how some folks gained new land. He talks about a Missouri River bridge that was built over land, and about the hopes for commercial navigation on the Missouri River that just never seem to realize.
We talk about the growing community of Missouri River paddlers and the special relationship between residents of river towns and the Missouri River. Steve offers a few tips on places to visit the Missouri River, including a couple of areas where you can check out remnants of the old river. We finish with a description of the mission of Missouri River Relief and their big annual event, the race known as the MR340.
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Steve Schnarr (00:00):
I love Glasgow to Boonville. There's this S curve
(00:05):
in the river that goes throughJameson Island Unit of the Big
Muddy Wildlife Refuge in theLisbon Bottoms Unit of the Big
Muddy Wildlife Refuge. This,this S curve really just got
obliterated in the '93 flood.
And it all was purchased to bepart of the Big Muddy and
there's remnants of of shoots,some built by some, you know,
(00:27):
recreated by floods, and somecreated by the Corps of
Engineers as habitat that reallyjust add this wild feel to this
stretch of the river. Andthere's some giant sand bars. I
I just love that area, andGlasgow itself is just a classic
river town. I love that town.
Dean Klinkenberg (00:47):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
(01:11):
Podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
(01:32):
information on the Mississippiat MississippiValleyTraveler.com
Let's get going. Welcome toEpisode 63 of the Mississippi
Valley Traveler podcast. In thisepisode, we continue our detour
along the Missouri River withpart two of my conversation with
Steve Schnarr from MissouriRiver Relief. We covered a lot
(01:55):
of territory, just like theMissouri River does. So this
conversation is split betweentwo episodes. Part one was out a
couple weeks ago. Go back andlisten to that if you haven't
had a chance to do that yet. Notexactly a narrative continuity
to worry about those so you canjust dive right into part two as
well, if you wish. We begin parttwo with Steve describing the
(02:17):
process the Corps of Engineersused to channelize the Missouri
River and and how thatultimately changed the river
itself. What we lost in theprocess, and how some folks
gained some new land. He talksabout a Missouri River bridge
that was built over land, andsome about the hopes for
commercial navigation on theMissouri River that just never
(02:38):
seemed to materialize. We talkedabout the growing community of
Missouri River paddlers and thespecial relationship between
residents of river towns and theMissouri River. Steve offers a
few tips on places to visitalong the Missouri River,
including a couple of areaswhere you can check out remnants
of the old river get a taste ofwhat the the old Missouri River
(02:59):
was like. We finish with adescription of the mission of
Missouri River Relief and theirbig annual event, the race known
as the MR340.
Thanks to those of you whocontinue to show me support
through Patreon, I deeplyappreciate it, and it makes me
feel good to know that youcontinue to support this
(03:19):
podcast, now that we're 63episodes in. If you want to join
the community, go topatreon.com/deanklinkenberg,
where for as little as $1 amonth, you can become a part of
that community and get earlyaccess to all of these episodes.
Patreon not your thing? Well,buy me a coffee. I drink plenty
of caffeine, and I appreciateevery little bit of support you
(03:40):
can show me to help me keep thatcaffeine habit going. Want to
know how to do that, go toMississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast
and you'll find a link there tobuy me a coffee. At that same
address,MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast,
you'll find a list of allprevious 62 episodes, as well as
(04:00):
show notes for each of thoseepisodes where you can go crazy
and you can binge content aboutthe Mississippi River. Well,
let's get on with the interview.
Well, let's move on to talkingmore about recreation. In spite
(04:24):
of all these limitations, allthese changes we've made to the
river today, there is a lot ofrecreational use along the
Missouri River. Can you? Can youspeak a little bit to that
aspect of Missouri River life?
Steve Schnarr (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's one aspect
about the engineering of theriver that we didn't discuss.
Dean, is it possible for me togo ahead and just talk about
that real quick, and then we'lljust move right into to
recreation. So on this lowerriver that i live on. Below
(05:00):
Sioux City, Iowa, basically, wementioned a little bit about it.
The river has been channelizedso it is about 1/3 of the width
that it originally was, onaverage. And I think it's just
kind of fascinating, like howthat was done. You know, there's
some really great photographsthat show the process, which
(05:24):
obviously don't work onpodcasts. So I'll do the best I
can to kind of describe theprocess. But essentially, the
this work started in the lowerriver in about 1929 and more or
less, kind of started in the StLouis area and moved its way up
the Missouri River. So, youknow, by the time it was that
(05:47):
work was kind of getting intoIowa and Nebraska, you know, it
was in the mid '30s. Butbasically what they would do is
they brought barges full ofCypress logs from the bootheel
of Missouri and places furthersouth. And they had these pile
driver barges that would poundthese giant Cypress logs down
(06:10):
into the river as deep as theypossibly could get. But, you
know, still just stuck in thatmud, sand matrix. And so they
would basically decide wherethey wanted the river to be, and
they would put perpendicular tothe current, these rows of these
pilings, just like in rows. Andsometimes they have more logs
(06:34):
where they strap them alltogether and make a stronger
structure. And then they'd haverows of these dike structures
made out of wood that wouldessentially push the channel of
the river to one side oranother. So then opposite those
rows of wooden pilings, thenthey would have to lay down rock
(06:57):
on the outside of the bank tohold that bank, because the
dikes are going to push thewater to the other side, and
then they had to have rock tohold that bank, or else the
river would just eat it. And allof that rock was laid by hand.
So at the time that this projectwas done in the '20s and '30s,
(07:21):
there were often 10,000 menliving in floating dormitory
barges on the Missouri Riverevery year, working on this
project, having to lay rock byhand on one bank of the river,
and then they're driving thesepile of wing dikes on the other
side. And so as the as thesediment, this is before the
(07:44):
dams had been built, right so wehave five times more sediment
being carried by the MissouriRiver than there is right now.
And as that sediment laden waterwould hit those piling dikes,
the dikes would slow that waterdown, and it would just start to
release that sediment, and itwould build up between those
(08:08):
dikes. So that was essentiallycreating new land between those
dikes. And it really only took acouple of years before that
really started happening. So youhave this new land being formed
between these rows of woodendikes on one side of the river.
And then right away, you know,cottonwood seedlings are
(08:31):
starting to grow on that and asthis cottonwood forest, this
very young cottonwood forest,starts to grow on this new land,
then it becomes what thosewooden pilings were. So as the
river then floods into thatforest every year they're
catching that sediment and andcottonwoods have that amazing
Dean Klinkenberg (08:53):
So just out of curiosity. So, you know, the
talent that many trees don't,that they can be buried by
sediment and still be perfectlyfine. They don't they don't rot
away. Their bark doesn't rotaway. Cottonwoods are fully
designed for and adapted forthat situation. So so as that so
that land would just keepgrowing to the point now where
(09:18):
there are these dike structuresthat go underground through
farmland that used to be theMissouri River adjacent to the
river, and they'll be 10 to 20feet underground, but they'll
just be farming right over thetop of them. So in that process,
we created, you know, out ofthis amazing matrix of sandbars
(09:41):
and wetlands and willowthickets, this sort of
biological engine of the river,you know, we we created a bunch
of new land. We lost a lot ofecological diversity. We have a
much narrower, faster river thatstays in one place, you know,
doesn't move around. So the factthat it doesn't move around, you
(10:05):
know. That's a big change tothe, you know, the heartbeat of
the Missouri River, but superconvenient to us humans in so
many ways. Just so hard to buildtowns and farm anything you
know, like if that river is justconstantly moving around. So
like one of the you know, that'sjust one of many trade offs that
(10:29):
we're always playing between ourcivilization, our ability to use
our land and our ability to growcommunities next to something as
wild as the Missouri River, sothat that whole process of
channelization, it's one of thefascinating things about it, to
me, is how quickly it happensand how invisible it is now.
(10:53):
Just hard to imagine what thatriver looked like when we see
the river that we have now.
these dikes created probably1000s of acres of land. Who
owned the land?
Steve Schnarr (11:10):
So I think my understanding was different in
different states, right? So,like, I believe in Iowa, the
state actually took overownership of that land, and all
kinds of weird land dealshappened, you know, under the
table or over the table, with avariety of people that lived and
farmed along the river, but someof it was maintained as state
(11:33):
wildlife areas, which is onemodel. In Missouri, the adjacent
landowner would receive thatproperty. So that was just a
windfall for many of the farmersthat lived next to the river, or
other farmers might lose theirproperty as the Army Corps of
Engineers was deciding wherethat river is going to go. And
(11:57):
kind of another interestingstory is about that
channelization process.
Something similar happened justdownstream in Kansas City, but
the story I'm going to talkabout is Decatur, Nebraska. So
it's north of Omaha, basicallythe counties on either side of
(12:18):
the river in Iowa and Nebraskawanted to to build a bridge over
the river, and so they talked tothe Army Corps of Engineers, and
in the Corps said, yeah, you canbuild a bridge over the river,
but we're going to move theriver, so we need you to build
the bridge like over here, andwe're going to move the river
(12:38):
and put it under your bridge. Soin as they're channelizing the
river, there they were trying tocut off some of these bends,
take some miles out of theriver, increase the gradient and
the speed of the river. So thetwo counties and the two states
raised money, raised funds, andthey built a bridge over
nothing. And then the Corps hadits funding pulled from the
(13:00):
Senate, so it took a couple moreelection cycles before they got
the funding to move the riverunder this bridge. So they
basically had this bridge, kindof in the middle of nowhere,
until the Corps got around tosaying, we're actually going to,
you know, doing the work to putthe river under that bridge.
Dean Klinkenberg (13:26):
Wow. Some of these stories get a little
maddening, but a lot of this wecould go here just kind of
briefly too, but I want to getback to recreation. We've done a
lot on the below the last dam tofacilitate barge traffic. So
how's that worked out?
Steve Schnarr (13:48):
Well, I am not an expert on this subject, and so
I'm speaking a bit more on from,you know, the standpoint of just
somebody that uses the river alot and and sees, sees what goes
on out there. And I do know alot of the companies that work
on the river, the tow, the towcompanies, yeah, there's,
(14:12):
there's not, there's certainlynothing close to the freight
that was promised that's movingon the Missouri River. It, it
continues to be a challenge.
It's very difficult betweenflooding events and drought
events, in silting in ofpassages during low water times,
to the challenges even of justthe river in the winter, you
(14:37):
know, filling up with ice orfreezing over occasionally.
There's a lot of challenges tomaintaining shipping on the
Missouri River, just because ofthe winding nature of the river
and the relatively narrowchannel that's maintained. You
know, most of these tow boatscan can push, like most of them,
(14:59):
at the most will push sixbarges. You know, a friend of
mine saw, I think, a 12 towbarge a couple weeks ago, which
I have never seen before on theMissouri River. The most, I
think, that I've seen is eight,maybe nine. But you know, you
can do quite a bit more. And onthe Mississippi River, up to 16
(15:23):
in the upper and up to 56 on thelower. You know it's, it's very
different. So yeah, thatrecently it's felt like there
was a lot more barge traffic onthe Missouri River. But the
truth is, there's been thisthree year project based off of
the Inflation Reduction Actmoney and some 2019 flood relief
(15:46):
money, which is poured, I don'tremember the number. I can't
remember if it was $150 or $250million of rock into the
Missouri River. So rebuildingall of those rock dike
structures in revetment alongthe river that it was kind of
(16:09):
quietly happening over the pastthree years. So there's been a
lot of tow boats and work boatsand barges moving between
quarries and loading sites andall these locations on the river
where dikes are being rebuilt.
(16:31):
So you know that wholechannelization structure of the
river has been degrading a lotsince it was finished in the
'70s. And I think that the goalof this project was to, like, do
a complete refresh while we hadthese Inflation Reduction Act
(16:52):
funds to do infrastructure work.
So, yeah, there wasn't a lot ofpublicity about that project in
the process, some of the habitatprojects which had been done to
create, to try to recreatehabitat lost during the process
of channelization were actuallyshut down by rock structures in
(17:13):
the past three years as well.
So. But I think that the core ofyour question is like, did it
work? Do we have a lot of bargetraffic on the river? We have a
handful, and I would say lessthan a handful of companies that
move freight on the MissouriRiver. There's a few standard
(17:35):
shipping things that kind ofcontinuously happen, of oil
barges, and there's three, threecompanies that are that move
freight fairly regularly on theMissouri River. And that's kind
of about it. There's otherspecialty things that happen.
(17:57):
There was a little boomlet a fewyears ago where maybe, like,
three more new companies movedon to the river, and they
thought they were going to givea go at it again. And I think
that was, that was the year ofthe 2019 flood. And then the
following year was a droughtwhere the river had been
(18:22):
rearranged by the flood, and nowthere were all these difficult
crossings, and we had all thesenew pilots coming onto the
river, and so people are gettingstuck a lot. You know, it was
quite, quite a thing, but whenyou look back at the history of
this river, we're always on theverge of a revival in in barge
navigation on the MissouriRiver. It's always about to
(18:44):
happen, and it's it's achallenge.
Dean Klinkenberg (18:50):
Well, it's probably like the story of the
the modern barge era, in manyrespects, is that there are
always promises of big things tocome that never seem to happen.
And on some rivers, thedisappointment, or the reality
is, is is work. How do I want tosay that? Yeah, for some rivers,
(19:10):
the reality is well below whatpeople expected, and probably
well below what could bejustified if you did an
objective cost benefit analysisof and the Missouri River, I've
looked at some of the data onthe Missouri River, and there
are some years where themajority of the freight being
(19:32):
moved is gravel to maintain theshipping channel. So there's a
circular sort of reasoning.
Steve Schnarr (19:41):
Well, that was certainly the case in the past
few years and and then the otherthing is sand dredging
operations so that that there isa lot of sand harvested from the
Missouri River to be used inconcrete or anything you use
sand for . So there are dredgingoperations all across the state
(20:04):
and all the way up, you know,through Iowa and Nebraska. And
then there'll always be a towboat with barges associated with
a sand plant nearby, and they'lljust be moving empty and then
loaded sand barges a few miles,you know, so.
Dean Klinkenberg (20:21):
Well, let's get on. Let's go to the
recreation bit too. I know,like, one of the things that
maybe doesn't happen as much onthe Missouri River as it is on
the Mississippi is the longdistance paddlers. And there is
a pretty active paddlingcommunity on the Missouri River
before we get into the MR340race. Like, just kind of give us
an overview of this culturethat's developing along the
(20:43):
Missouri River for paddlers.
Steve Schnarr (20:48):
Well, you know, there's always been this fun in
the part of Missouri that I livein, the center of the state.
There's always been a kind ofoutlier, paddler, Missouri River
paddler culture, you know, fordecades, certainly before I came
around and that it's fun to hearthe stories of a variety of
(21:11):
different things, little racesthat would pop up, or
expeditions bringing the publicto go paddling on the river. And
then also just the this general,you know, river rat kind of
culture. And I think that thatthat has is like in all
communities along the river inthat's the funny thing about
(21:33):
rivers, is everyone just sort ofthinks about their community is
sort of the only community onthe river. But it's these things
are happening like in lots ofdifferent places. There's a
really cool Facebook groupcalled Missouri River Paddlers
that I kind of just stumbledacross, probably just searching
(21:55):
in the early days of Facebook,or my early days of Facebook,
anyways, and it's created by aguy who lives in Livingston,
Montana, interestingly enough,on the Yellowstone River. You
know, not the, not the Missouriup there, but Norm in 2004
paddled and 2005 paddledupstream on the Missouri River.
(22:18):
And I don't remember where Normstarted, but he has a Kruger Sea
Wind, and he paddled followingthe Lewis and Clark Bicentennial
kind of Expedition. So did it onhis own. He was totally rogue,
but like not part of anyorganized group, but he was, he
was, yeah, paddled upstream onthe Missouri River. And I don't
(22:41):
fully know Norm's whole story,necessarily, but he's done a lot
of cool paddling expeditions,but he started this little
Facebook group as a way forpeople who had done long
distance trips on the river tomeet each other, and also for
new people that were going to bedoing long distance trips to tap
(23:04):
into a growing network of peoplewho'd done it before, and pretty
quickly in the way theseFacebook things happen, you
know, just anybody who enjoyspaddling on the Missouri River
started joining this thing. Soit became quite a community.
Norm is an amateur historian. Hejust knows so much about the
(23:27):
history of the Missouri River,not just up in Montana, where he
lives, but everywhere. He's aLewis and Clark obsessive, which
you can imagine if you were topaddle upstream on the entire
Missouri River in the Lewis andClark bicentennial. These days,
he also guides trips in theWhite Cliffs in the Missouri
(23:50):
River Breaks region up there.
But he you know that wholenotion has built a really cool
community of people that havedone the Missouri River and
share their knowledge with newpeople, and then new people come
along, and Norm is justobsessively trying to find,
like, who are all the peoplethat are going to do this, these
(24:11):
big trips on the river. And sothen they start to get to know
each other, and then thisnetwork of river angels is built
up around the page so peoplethat like to help people portage
around dams or bring someresupply down to folks and help
solve problems locally. Andthat's a beautiful thing. Norm
(24:34):
keeps a spreadsheet of contactinformation of river angels and
and then every few years, everyfive years or so and Norm is
kind of the catalyst of this,this group, this ever growing
group, will have a rendezvousand four, five day paddling trip
somewhere on the Missouri River.
(24:57):
So like the first one was, Ithink it was from Huntsdale,
Missouri, at the old KatfishKatie's down to the confluence
with the Mississippi. Everybodyyou know gathers from around the
world, you know, but definitelyfrom around the country. And
it's a lot of Canadians as well,just to hang out. And you get
(25:20):
these, these loner adventurertypes, you know, all together
with a bunch of other loneradventurer types, you know. And
it is just a blast. It is sofun. And they have allowed me to
tag along with them. I'm notreally an adventurer, but I love
the river, and now I try to helpout with these rendezvous when I
(25:44):
can. But it's, it's reallydeveloped into a beautiful
community of people, and thenthat sort of branches out,
right? You see, have, you know,you have Big Muddy Mike. And the
Big Muddy Adventures crew in StLouis, you know that. And Mike
was involved in thatBicentennial Lewis and Clark
(26:05):
thing too, you know. And he'sconnected to John Ruske, you
know, down on the lowerMississippi and, and that's
this, like, you know, justgrowing pool of knowledgeable
river guides. And in a in agrowing river culture, places
like paddle stop in New Haventhat's now got a brewery, you
(26:27):
know, but they do guided tripson the Missouri River. Tom
Bailey, up in Kansas City'sdoing trips through downtown
Kansas City. And I met Tom whenhe was a Missouri River paddler
finishing his or well, midway,he was on a trip all the way
down the Missouri to the Gulf ofMexico. We were doing a river
(26:49):
cleanup in Saint Charles. And Iknew about Tom because of Norm's
page, you know. And that kind ofhappens all the time. And so he
stopped by and had dinner withus and helped do the river
cleanup the next day. And then,in a few years, he's doing a
kayak business in Kansas City.
So all these things kind ofinterconnect. And when you sort
(27:13):
of throw the MR340 into the mix,that race from Kansas City to St
Charles, which is now at its20th year this year. You know
that that the growth of thesenetworks and these communities
and the way people connecttogether around paddling on the
Missouri River is it's just abeautiful thing to watch, you
(27:36):
know, and really fun to be apart of.
Dean Klinkenberg (27:42):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting
myself, just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guide books for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also write
the Frank Dodge mystery seriesthat is set in places along the
Mississippi. My newest book TheWild Mississippi, goes deep into
(28:07):
the world of Old Man River.
Learn about the varied andcomplex ecosystem supported by
the Mississippi, the plant andanimal life that depends on
them. And where you can go toexperience it all find any of
these wherever books are sold.
I wanted to ask you, like, forthose of us who are not
adventurers, what are some oftwo or three of your favorite
(28:31):
spots to go along the MissouriRiver that really sort of help
you connect and get immersed inthat world? I know because of
you, I know about Ponca StatePark in Nebraska. And I think
that's a really fantastic place,a segment of like, a taste of
what the old Missouri River waslike. You can camp right there
next to the river, and there's alot, a lot of hiking in the
state park. What are maybe acouple of other places that
(28:55):
you're really enthusiasticabout.
Steve Schnarr (29:00):
Well, there is a lot of the river that I have not
paddled or been on. So you know,most of my experiences have been
on the Lower Missouri Riverbelow Gavins Point Dam, the last
dam there on the Missouri River,in that stretch below Gavins
(29:21):
Point Dam to Ponca State Parkthat you talked about. It's
about a 60 mile stretch of theriver that is unchannelized and
and managed by the National ParkService, at least as of
yesterday. I you know, it's hardto know day to day right now
what what's going on, but what'sknown as the Missouri National
(29:43):
Recreation River. And it's justso cool. I mean, it is so cool.
You you paddling down the river.
You know, by the time you you'redone, if you do the whole 60
mile stretch, or a piece likeyou've gotten a feel for. How
this thing works, but it worksso differently than our
channelized river down here,it's really hard to tell, like,
(30:06):
where the shallow water is andwhere the deep water is, and
then it changes. You're in adeep little channel, and then,
boom, it's like, ends in asandbar. Where did that water
go? It's really cool. I lovethat stretch of the river. A
couple of my favorites down inour neck of the woods. I love
(30:27):
Glasgow to Boonville. There'sthis S curve in the river that
goes through Jameson Island Unitof the Big Muddy Wildlife Refuge
in the Lisbon Bottoms Unit ofthe Big Muddy Wildlife Refuge.
This, this S curve really justgot obliterated in the 93 flood.
And it all was purchased to bepart of the Big Muddy and
(30:49):
there's remnants of of shoots,some built by some, you know,
recreated by floods, and somecreated by the Corps of
Engineers as habitat that reallyjust add this wild feel to this
stretch of the river. Andthere's some giant sand bars
that I just love that area. AndGlasgow itself is just a classic
(31:13):
river town. I love that town.
People are wonderful. There'sbuilt up on a bluff, like all
the smart river towns are. Andyou know, the great high shop,
really nice restaurants, just asweet town. Love that town. I
(31:34):
love the stretch right by whereI live, so from either
Booneville or Rocheport, and Ilove putting in at Rocheport,
Moniteau Creek, you know, downto Cooper's Landing. Finish at
Cooper's Landing, which is sucha unique river spot with music
and beer and food trucks, that'sa stretch I love with the
(31:56):
Rocheport Bluffs, the ManitouBluffs and some killer sandbars
in that area. And then reallylove the section from Herman to
New Haven, that's about a 16mile stretch. Also some
beautiful bluffs, sandbars just,just a great stretch the river
(32:20):
in one other area that I love,that in the winter you can walk
out to a lot of times, but it'sSioux Passage Park. There is,
that's the lower end of PelicanIsland. Now, Pelican Island is
like five miles long in the inthe upper end has this, just
this amazing gravel bar. It isjust, it's like, epic. It's just
(32:45):
beautiful. And so again, like inthe winter, you can it can
actually walk out there, butthat, that's a favorite place
for sure. So that's, I didn'tmention where it was, but Sioux
Passage Park is in Florissant,Missouri. So that's kind of
North St Louis County.
Dean Klinkenberg (33:06):
Well, those sound terrific. There's not
enough time in the summer for meto get to all these places. I
better get started here soon.
Well, kind of mindful the timehere. Why don't? Why don't we
sort of wind down a little bitby talking a little bit about
Missouri River Relief. So you'vebeen with them for quite a few
years. Tell us you know what themission is. What does Missouri
River relief do?
Steve Schnarr (33:30):
Yeah, well, our our mission is really about
connecting people to the river,and we have, the way we really
do that is through craftingpowerful experiences like that.
That is really kind of the coreof what we do. And in our main
(33:51):
work is in river cleanups, whichwe've been you know, next year
will be our 25th anniversary ofour first river cleanup. And in
those 24 years so far,volunteers have removed well
over 2 million pounds of oftrash from the river. And it's
(34:16):
they're just magicalexperiences, magical experiences
with with people during theseeducation programs are really
the heart and soul of what we doin the variety of audiences and
the ways we approach it isreally cool. I love it. Earlier
this week, our education teamtook a group from the VA
(34:41):
Hospital that's doing they'reall involved in substance abuse
recovery program, and we've beendoing this for a few years,
where we take them out on theriver for a day, and we teach
about the river. We haveconversations about the river,
we see different parts of theriver, and. If the situation's
right, we will sometimes do alittle river cleanup. We'll do
(35:05):
and then usually stop, stop at agood spot and do some fishing,
you know, along the littlesteep, fluffy edge of of a
sandbar, sometimes or or else,along along a couple of wing
dikes or something. So that man,I mean, every single time that
(35:27):
program is a home run. I meanthese people really deeply
appreciate the experience. Itcan be transformative. Someone
this week said, "You better keepdoing this program. You're
saving lives." You know, that'sa lot, but it's that, it's that
power of being out there on apowerful place like the river
(35:49):
with with people where you feelsafe and you're with people that
you can open up with. You know,these folks are all in this
program together, and it justreally is always transformative.
And I think the river itself is,is the key. You know, the river
does most of the work there,when then we also host canoe
(36:11):
kayak races and work with othercanoe kayak races. So the big
ones for us, the big one is theMR340 that you mentioned, which
is presented by MissouriAmerican Water, one of the major
drinking water providers in thestate of Missouri. This is the
20th year of the race. It wasstarted by Scott Mansker and
(36:35):
2006 as just a test of conceptsort of thing, you know, like,
could we do this? What is thiseven like? How does this work?
The first year there was, I heardifferent numbers, and I'm a
little confused if it was 20 or17 paddlers started the race,
(36:55):
and either 15 or 11 boats. I'veheard both number combinations.
I think it's the latter. But youknow, in in now, last year, we
had 611 paddlers in the race. Sofolks are learning from each
other. They're they're sharingknowledge training as they're
(37:16):
approaching this monumentalaccomplishment that so many
people are doing at the sametime, which is paddling almost
across the state of Missouri injust a few days. So it's race.
Dean Klinkenberg (37:27):
It's crazy to think that it's 20 years doing
this, that way, this, this mindboggling, kind of crazy idea to
to paddle 340 miles on thisriver, and it's attracting so
many people, I will say, as aquick sidebar, based on my
research, I really, I wrote anarticle for Terrain Magazine
that'll be out in July, aboutthe very first race. The
(37:52):
official count seems to havebeen 20 paddlers and 15 boats.
Okay, that's that's a long wayfrom 611.
Steve Schnarr (38:01):
Yeah.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:05):
So, so when, just, when does that kick off
this year? What are the dates?
Steve Schnarr (38:10):
This year. So, yeah, it's an interesting thing
about this race is it movesaround. It follows the full
moon, because it goes all nightlong. So we want to have the
most light possible out there.
So this year, that is July 8through 11th. So race start is
in the morning of Tuesday, July8, and everybody has to wrap it
up by nine o'clock on Friday,July 11. That that finish line
(38:35):
is at Lewis and Clark Boathousein St Charles, Missouri. So
Missouri, American Water does aton of work to create a kind of
a beach there at the end, whereeverybody can land and end this
amazing journey. You know, it's,
Dean Klinkenberg (38:59):
You can get out of your boat and collapse
it's a lot.
and and dream about a shower anda good night's sleep somewhere,
right?
Steve Schnarr (39:04):
Yes, yes, yeah.
It's, it's, it's an emotionalscene at the finish line. Is
such an accomplishment forabsolutely everybody who makes
it, and whether they're, youknow, beating their own personal
record, or whether it's theirfirst time, whatever the
situation is, it, is it is it'san accomplishment to make it to
(39:28):
the end, a lifetimeaccomplishment. And there are a
lot of tears shed there, thereat that finish line.
Dean Klinkenberg (39:39):
Yeah, then you also do the Race to the Dome,
Steve Schnarr (39:43):
Yeah, that's right, which is ends in right?
Jefferson City. There's either a16 mile or a 27 mile race ends
in Jefferson City, the beautifulNoren Access with Wilson
Serenity Point. And that is aboth of those are fundraisers
for Missouri River Relief injust just lockstep with our
(40:08):
mission of connecting people tothis river and building the
community of people that lovethe Missouri River.
Dean Klinkenberg (40:15):
And I'll just add my testimonial to it. I've
been lucky enough to be at acouple of cleanups for Missouri
River Relief and I did the Raceto the Dome one year. Fantastic
group of people, greatorganization. I love the work
that you do. It's so importantto find ways to connect people
to our big rivers, and the wayyou describe people's reaction,
(40:35):
how they pulled in. I think itspeaks volumes of quality to
work as well. So, great job overthere. You're based in central
Missouri. Well, is thereanything else you want to say
about Missouri River Relief orthe Missouri River?
Steve Schnarr (40:58):
No, that's dangerous. I mean, I could
probably go on and on, you know?
I guess one thing I do want tosay about Missouri River Relief
is that it is, it is aboutpeople. We're not an advocacy
organization, you know, we are.
We're not in Jefferson City orWashington DC fighting for
(41:20):
policy like that's just not whowe are. What we are is, is about
bringing people in the rivertogether. So the way that that
sort of plays out is, it's abeautiful thing. So we have a
kind of a central core of what,what is called the Missouri
River relief crew. And therethat is sort of people in in
(41:44):
many different cities along theMissouri River, but in
particular in the Columbia area,which is where we started,
people that the Missouri RiverRelief is just maybe one of the
most important things in theirlife, you know? It's, it's
something they give a lot ofenergy to. And in other crew
(42:07):
members have a lot of thingsthey give energy to, you know,
but they're also part of theRiver Relief crew. So these are
the the behind the scenesvolunteers that travel to all
these different towns where wedo river cleanups and education
programs that make it happen.
You know, they learn how to dothese education programs. They
(42:31):
learn how to drive boats. Theylearn whatever the role is to
make these volunteer programsefficient and safe and
inspiring. And there none ofwhat we do would be possible
without these people. And it'san ever growing community of
people. And beyond that, youhave this community of
(42:53):
volunteers that help put on theMR340 that helped do that, show
up to river cleanups, you know,and sometimes bring their Boy
Scout troop, or they bring theirschool group or their church, or
whatever it is, their cricketteam. This, this ever growing
network of people that thatdevelop this love and attachment
(43:17):
to the river and this, thiscommunity feeling of doing, you
know, accomplishing somethingthat's built around this river,
and then our staff is just likeastonishing how talented and
hardworking and passionate theyare. We have 10 full time staff
members right now, and most ofus you know are bringing
(43:41):
multitudes of talents to thisteam. And so this the River
Relief staff. I mean, I am justso grateful to be to work with
the quality of people that Iwork with. Last year, we hired a
new director, Jami Wade, andshe's brought just so many
skills that we needed. She'sbrought to the table. One more
(44:04):
really exciting thing that'shappening is the Nature
Conservancy was donated a pieceof property that used to be
Katfish Katie's at Huntsdale,Missouri, and they've invited
Missouri River leaf to be partof the development of that that
property. So they're doing someamazing agroforestry projects
(44:28):
there, planting kind of adiversity of native trees,
including some pecan and walnutplantations, as you know, an
example and a test case ofutilizing Missouri River
floodplain to grow perennialfood crops instead of, you know,
exclusively corn and soybeans.
(44:50):
And that's the thing that'shappening. I mean, up by
Brunswick, there's commercialpecan production in the Missouri
River Bottoms. It's, it's athing, you know, it's not, this
isn't, like completelyinnovative, but the way that
they're approaching it isinnovative. And so anyway,
(45:12):
we're, we're going to be, we'reworking on developing plans on
that property and a nearbyproperty to hopefully move our
offices and have some educationspaces and then some
infrastructure right on theriver where we can really do
ramp up our education programsand do way more more efficiently
(45:35):
with more diverse audiences, ofbringing people to the river, to
the same place. This is reallyexciting. It's a long term
project, and it's kind of a nextphase in the world, in life of
Missouri River Relief.
Dean Klinkenberg (45:52):
Well, that sounds awesome. So for folks who
want to keep up with what youand Missouri River Relief are
doing, where are the best placesto do so?
Steve Schnarr (46:02):
Yeah, probably our website is riverrelief.org
so you can see a lot of theprograms that we have going on.
One of those is a monthlyspeakers series in Columbia.
Greenway Network in St Charlesis part of this as well. And
they do the monthly Big Muddyspeaker series in St Charles,
(46:24):
which is just fabulous, andsomeone's picking that up in
Kansas City. That website isBigMuddySpeakers.org. The MR340
website, MR340.org also has aFacebook group which is
fascinating, which is MissouriAmerican Water MR340 on
Facebook. And yeah, at thispoint, we do utilize Facebook
(46:46):
and Instagram, and those are allgood places. You can sign up for
our email newsletter and reallyfind out what's going on month
to month.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:00):
I will, I'll post links to all those in the
show notes so people can can getto it through that route as
well. Steve, thank you so muchfor taking time today to share
your knowledge and your passionfor the Missouri River with us.
Deeply appreciate it.
Steve Schnarr (47:17):
Awesome. Dean, it is a blast to to hang out with
you a little bit. And I loveyour podcast. I absolutely love
your books. Keep it up. You arean important advocate and friend
to the Mississippi River and thetowns that live along it. Thank
you for the work you do.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:38):
Well, thank you, and maybe now the Missouri
River will add to the that scopeas well so.
Steve Schnarr (47:43):
Yeah, let's do it. Let's go paddling.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:45):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes. I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon, you help keepthe program going. Just go to
patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the
(48:05):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guide books forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley traveler
podcast is written and producedby me, Dean Klinkenberg.
Original Music by Noah Fence.
See you next time.
I love Glasgow to Boonville. There's this S curve
(00:05):
in the river that goes throughJameson Island Unit of the Big
Muddy Wildlife Refuge in theLisbon Bottoms Unit of the Big
Muddy Wildlife Refuge. This,this S curve really just got
obliterated in the '93 flood.
And it all was purchased to bepart of the Big Muddy and
there's remnants of of shoots,some built by some, you know,
(00:27):
recreated by floods, and somecreated by the Corps of
Engineers as habitat that reallyjust add this wild feel to this
stretch of the river. Andthere's some giant sand bars. I
I just love that area, andGlasgow itself is just a classic
river town. I love that town.
Dean Klinkenberg (00:47):
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler
(01:11):
Podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg,and I've been exploring the deep
history and rich culture of thepeople and places along
America's greatest river, theMississippi, since 2007. Join me
as I go deep into the charactersand places along the river, and
occasionally wander into otherstories from the Midwest and
other rivers. Read the episodeshow notes and get more
(01:32):
information on the Mississippiat MississippiValleyTraveler.com
Let's get going. Welcome toEpisode 63 of the Mississippi
Valley Traveler podcast. In thisepisode, we continue our detour
along the Missouri River withpart two of my conversation with
Steve Schnarr from MissouriRiver Relief. We covered a lot
(01:55):
of territory, just like theMissouri River does. So this
conversation is split betweentwo episodes. Part one was out a
couple weeks ago. Go back andlisten to that if you haven't
had a chance to do that yet. Notexactly a narrative continuity
to worry about those so you canjust dive right into part two as
well, if you wish. We begin parttwo with Steve describing the
(02:17):
process the Corps of Engineersused to channelize the Missouri
River and and how thatultimately changed the river
itself. What we lost in theprocess, and how some folks
gained some new land. He talksabout a Missouri River bridge
that was built over land, andsome about the hopes for
commercial navigation on theMissouri River that just never
(02:38):
seemed to materialize. We talkedabout the growing community of
Missouri River paddlers and thespecial relationship between
residents of river towns and theMissouri River. Steve offers a
few tips on places to visitalong the Missouri River,
including a couple of areaswhere you can check out remnants
of the old river get a taste ofwhat the the old Missouri River
(02:59):
was like. We finish with adescription of the mission of
Missouri River Relief and theirbig annual event, the race known
as the MR340.
Thanks to those of you whocontinue to show me support
through Patreon, I deeplyappreciate it, and it makes me
feel good to know that youcontinue to support this
(03:19):
podcast, now that we're 63episodes in. If you want to join
the community, go topatreon.com/deanklinkenberg,
where for as little as $1 amonth, you can become a part of
that community and get earlyaccess to all of these episodes.
Patreon not your thing? Well,buy me a coffee. I drink plenty
of caffeine, and I appreciateevery little bit of support you
(03:40):
can show me to help me keep thatcaffeine habit going. Want to
know how to do that, go toMississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast
and you'll find a link there tobuy me a coffee. At that same
address,MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast,
you'll find a list of allprevious 62 episodes, as well as
(04:00):
show notes for each of thoseepisodes where you can go crazy
and you can binge content aboutthe Mississippi River. Well,
let's get on with the interview.
Well, let's move on to talkingmore about recreation. In spite
(04:24):
of all these limitations, allthese changes we've made to the
river today, there is a lot ofrecreational use along the
Missouri River. Can you? Can youspeak a little bit to that
aspect of Missouri River life?
Steve Schnarr (04:39):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's one aspect
about the engineering of theriver that we didn't discuss.
Dean, is it possible for me togo ahead and just talk about
that real quick, and then we'lljust move right into to
recreation. So on this lowerriver that i live on. Below
(05:00):
Sioux City, Iowa, basically, wementioned a little bit about it.
The river has been channelizedso it is about 1/3 of the width
that it originally was, onaverage. And I think it's just
kind of fascinating, like howthat was done. You know, there's
some really great photographsthat show the process, which
(05:24):
obviously don't work onpodcasts. So I'll do the best I
can to kind of describe theprocess. But essentially, the
this work started in the lowerriver in about 1929 and more or
less, kind of started in the StLouis area and moved its way up
the Missouri River. So, youknow, by the time it was that
(05:47):
work was kind of getting intoIowa and Nebraska, you know, it
was in the mid '30s. Butbasically what they would do is
they brought barges full ofCypress logs from the bootheel
of Missouri and places furthersouth. And they had these pile
driver barges that would poundthese giant Cypress logs down
(06:10):
into the river as deep as theypossibly could get. But, you
know, still just stuck in thatmud, sand matrix. And so they
would basically decide wherethey wanted the river to be, and
they would put perpendicular tothe current, these rows of these
pilings, just like in rows. Andsometimes they have more logs
(06:34):
where they strap them alltogether and make a stronger
structure. And then they'd haverows of these dike structures
made out of wood that wouldessentially push the channel of
the river to one side oranother. So then opposite those
rows of wooden pilings, thenthey would have to lay down rock
(06:57):
on the outside of the bank tohold that bank, because the
dikes are going to push thewater to the other side, and
then they had to have rock tohold that bank, or else the
river would just eat it. And allof that rock was laid by hand.
So at the time that this projectwas done in the '20s and '30s,
(07:21):
there were often 10,000 menliving in floating dormitory
barges on the Missouri Riverevery year, working on this
project, having to lay rock byhand on one bank of the river,
and then they're driving thesepile of wing dikes on the other
side. And so as the as thesediment, this is before the
(07:44):
dams had been built, right so wehave five times more sediment
being carried by the MissouriRiver than there is right now.
And as that sediment laden waterwould hit those piling dikes,
the dikes would slow that waterdown, and it would just start to
release that sediment, and itwould build up between those
(08:08):
dikes. So that was essentiallycreating new land between those
dikes. And it really only took acouple of years before that
really started happening. So youhave this new land being formed
between these rows of woodendikes on one side of the river.
And then right away, you know,cottonwood seedlings are
(08:31):
starting to grow on that and asthis cottonwood forest, this
very young cottonwood forest,starts to grow on this new land,
then it becomes what thosewooden pilings were. So as the
river then floods into thatforest every year they're
catching that sediment and andcottonwoods have that amazing
Dean Klinkenberg (08:53):
So just out of curiosity. So, you know, the
talent that many trees don't,that they can be buried by
sediment and still be perfectlyfine. They don't they don't rot
away. Their bark doesn't rotaway. Cottonwoods are fully
designed for and adapted forthat situation. So so as that so
that land would just keepgrowing to the point now where
(09:18):
there are these dike structuresthat go underground through
farmland that used to be theMissouri River adjacent to the
river, and they'll be 10 to 20feet underground, but they'll
just be farming right over thetop of them. So in that process,
we created, you know, out ofthis amazing matrix of sandbars
(09:41):
and wetlands and willowthickets, this sort of
biological engine of the river,you know, we we created a bunch
of new land. We lost a lot ofecological diversity. We have a
much narrower, faster river thatstays in one place, you know,
doesn't move around. So the factthat it doesn't move around, you
(10:05):
know. That's a big change tothe, you know, the heartbeat of
the Missouri River, but superconvenient to us humans in so
many ways. Just so hard to buildtowns and farm anything you
know, like if that river is justconstantly moving around. So
like one of the you know, that'sjust one of many trade offs that
(10:29):
we're always playing between ourcivilization, our ability to use
our land and our ability to growcommunities next to something as
wild as the Missouri River, sothat that whole process of
channelization, it's one of thefascinating things about it, to
me, is how quickly it happensand how invisible it is now.
(10:53):
Just hard to imagine what thatriver looked like when we see
the river that we have now.
these dikes created probably1000s of acres of land. Who
owned the land?
Steve Schnarr (11:10):
So I think my understanding was different in
different states, right? So,like, I believe in Iowa, the
state actually took overownership of that land, and all
kinds of weird land dealshappened, you know, under the
table or over the table, with avariety of people that lived and
farmed along the river, but someof it was maintained as state
(11:33):
wildlife areas, which is onemodel. In Missouri, the adjacent
landowner would receive thatproperty. So that was just a
windfall for many of the farmersthat lived next to the river, or
other farmers might lose theirproperty as the Army Corps of
Engineers was deciding wherethat river is going to go. And
(11:57):
kind of another interestingstory is about that
channelization process.
Something similar happened justdownstream in Kansas City, but
the story I'm going to talkabout is Decatur, Nebraska. So
it's north of Omaha, basicallythe counties on either side of
(12:18):
the river in Iowa and Nebraskawanted to to build a bridge over
the river, and so they talked tothe Army Corps of Engineers, and
in the Corps said, yeah, you canbuild a bridge over the river,
but we're going to move theriver, so we need you to build
the bridge like over here, andwe're going to move the river
(12:38):
and put it under your bridge. Soin as they're channelizing the
river, there they were trying tocut off some of these bends,
take some miles out of theriver, increase the gradient and
the speed of the river. So thetwo counties and the two states
raised money, raised funds, andthey built a bridge over
nothing. And then the Corps hadits funding pulled from the
(13:00):
Senate, so it took a couple moreelection cycles before they got
the funding to move the riverunder this bridge. So they
basically had this bridge, kindof in the middle of nowhere,
until the Corps got around tosaying, we're actually going to,
you know, doing the work to putthe river under that bridge.
Dean Klinkenberg (13:26):
Wow. Some of these stories get a little
maddening, but a lot of this wecould go here just kind of
briefly too, but I want to getback to recreation. We've done a
lot on the below the last dam tofacilitate barge traffic. So
how's that worked out?
Steve Schnarr (13:48):
Well, I am not an expert on this subject, and so
I'm speaking a bit more on from,you know, the standpoint of just
somebody that uses the river alot and and sees, sees what goes
on out there. And I do know alot of the companies that work
on the river, the tow, the towcompanies, yeah, there's,
(14:12):
there's not, there's certainlynothing close to the freight
that was promised that's movingon the Missouri River. It, it
continues to be a challenge.
It's very difficult betweenflooding events and drought
events, in silting in ofpassages during low water times,
to the challenges even of justthe river in the winter, you
(14:37):
know, filling up with ice orfreezing over occasionally.
There's a lot of challenges tomaintaining shipping on the
Missouri River, just because ofthe winding nature of the river
and the relatively narrowchannel that's maintained. You
know, most of these tow boatscan can push, like most of them,
(14:59):
at the most will push sixbarges. You know, a friend of
mine saw, I think, a 12 towbarge a couple weeks ago, which
I have never seen before on theMissouri River. The most, I
think, that I've seen is eight,maybe nine. But you know, you
can do quite a bit more. And onthe Mississippi River, up to 16
(15:23):
in the upper and up to 56 on thelower. You know it's, it's very
different. So yeah, thatrecently it's felt like there
was a lot more barge traffic onthe Missouri River. But the
truth is, there's been thisthree year project based off of
the Inflation Reduction Actmoney and some 2019 flood relief
(15:46):
money, which is poured, I don'tremember the number. I can't
remember if it was $150 or $250million of rock into the
Missouri River. So rebuildingall of those rock dike
structures in revetment alongthe river that it was kind of
(16:09):
quietly happening over the pastthree years. So there's been a
lot of tow boats and work boatsand barges moving between
quarries and loading sites andall these locations on the river
where dikes are being rebuilt.
(16:31):
So you know that wholechannelization structure of the
river has been degrading a lotsince it was finished in the
'70s. And I think that the goalof this project was to, like, do
a complete refresh while we hadthese Inflation Reduction Act
(16:52):
funds to do infrastructure work.
So, yeah, there wasn't a lot ofpublicity about that project in
the process, some of the habitatprojects which had been done to
create, to try to recreatehabitat lost during the process
of channelization were actuallyshut down by rock structures in
(17:13):
the past three years as well.
So. But I think that the core ofyour question is like, did it
work? Do we have a lot of bargetraffic on the river? We have a
handful, and I would say lessthan a handful of companies that
move freight on the MissouriRiver. There's a few standard
(17:35):
shipping things that kind ofcontinuously happen, of oil
barges, and there's three, threecompanies that are that move
freight fairly regularly on theMissouri River. And that's kind
of about it. There's otherspecialty things that happen.
(17:57):
There was a little boomlet a fewyears ago where maybe, like,
three more new companies movedon to the river, and they
thought they were going to givea go at it again. And I think
that was, that was the year ofthe 2019 flood. And then the
following year was a droughtwhere the river had been
(18:22):
rearranged by the flood, and nowthere were all these difficult
crossings, and we had all thesenew pilots coming onto the
river, and so people are gettingstuck a lot. You know, it was
quite, quite a thing, but whenyou look back at the history of
this river, we're always on theverge of a revival in in barge
navigation on the MissouriRiver. It's always about to
(18:44):
happen, and it's it's achallenge.
Dean Klinkenberg (18:50):
Well, it's probably like the story of the
the modern barge era, in manyrespects, is that there are
always promises of big things tocome that never seem to happen.
And on some rivers, thedisappointment, or the reality
is, is is work. How do I want tosay that? Yeah, for some rivers,
(19:10):
the reality is well below whatpeople expected, and probably
well below what could bejustified if you did an
objective cost benefit analysisof and the Missouri River, I've
looked at some of the data onthe Missouri River, and there
are some years where themajority of the freight being
(19:32):
moved is gravel to maintain theshipping channel. So there's a
circular sort of reasoning.
Steve Schnarr (19:41):
Well, that was certainly the case in the past
few years and and then the otherthing is sand dredging
operations so that that there isa lot of sand harvested from the
Missouri River to be used inconcrete or anything you use
sand for . So there are dredgingoperations all across the state
(20:04):
and all the way up, you know,through Iowa and Nebraska. And
then there'll always be a towboat with barges associated with
a sand plant nearby, and they'lljust be moving empty and then
loaded sand barges a few miles,you know, so.
Dean Klinkenberg (20:21):
Well, let's get on. Let's go to the
recreation bit too. I know,like, one of the things that
maybe doesn't happen as much onthe Missouri River as it is on
the Mississippi is the longdistance paddlers. And there is
a pretty active paddlingcommunity on the Missouri River
before we get into the MR340race. Like, just kind of give us
an overview of this culturethat's developing along the
(20:43):
Missouri River for paddlers.
Steve Schnarr (20:48):
Well, you know, there's always been this fun in
the part of Missouri that I livein, the center of the state.
There's always been a kind ofoutlier, paddler, Missouri River
paddler culture, you know, fordecades, certainly before I came
around and that it's fun to hearthe stories of a variety of
(21:11):
different things, little racesthat would pop up, or
expeditions bringing the publicto go paddling on the river. And
then also just the this general,you know, river rat kind of
culture. And I think that thatthat has is like in all
communities along the river inthat's the funny thing about
(21:33):
rivers, is everyone just sort ofthinks about their community is
sort of the only community onthe river. But it's these things
are happening like in lots ofdifferent places. There's a
really cool Facebook groupcalled Missouri River Paddlers
that I kind of just stumbledacross, probably just searching
(21:55):
in the early days of Facebook,or my early days of Facebook,
anyways, and it's created by aguy who lives in Livingston,
Montana, interestingly enough,on the Yellowstone River. You
know, not the, not the Missouriup there, but Norm in 2004
paddled and 2005 paddledupstream on the Missouri River.
(22:18):
And I don't remember where Normstarted, but he has a Kruger Sea
Wind, and he paddled followingthe Lewis and Clark Bicentennial
kind of Expedition. So did it onhis own. He was totally rogue,
but like not part of anyorganized group, but he was, he
was, yeah, paddled upstream onthe Missouri River. And I don't
(22:41):
fully know Norm's whole story,necessarily, but he's done a lot
of cool paddling expeditions,but he started this little
Facebook group as a way forpeople who had done long
distance trips on the river tomeet each other, and also for
new people that were going to bedoing long distance trips to tap
(23:04):
into a growing network of peoplewho'd done it before, and pretty
quickly in the way theseFacebook things happen, you
know, just anybody who enjoyspaddling on the Missouri River
started joining this thing. Soit became quite a community.
Norm is an amateur historian. Hejust knows so much about the
(23:27):
history of the Missouri River,not just up in Montana, where he
lives, but everywhere. He's aLewis and Clark obsessive, which
you can imagine if you were topaddle upstream on the entire
Missouri River in the Lewis andClark bicentennial. These days,
he also guides trips in theWhite Cliffs in the Missouri
(23:50):
River Breaks region up there.
But he you know that wholenotion has built a really cool
community of people that havedone the Missouri River and
share their knowledge with newpeople, and then new people come
along, and Norm is justobsessively trying to find,
like, who are all the peoplethat are going to do this, these
(24:11):
big trips on the river. And sothen they start to get to know
each other, and then thisnetwork of river angels is built
up around the page so peoplethat like to help people portage
around dams or bring someresupply down to folks and help
solve problems locally. Andthat's a beautiful thing. Norm
(24:34):
keeps a spreadsheet of contactinformation of river angels and
and then every few years, everyfive years or so and Norm is
kind of the catalyst of this,this group, this ever growing
group, will have a rendezvousand four, five day paddling trip
somewhere on the Missouri River.
(24:57):
So like the first one was, Ithink it was from Huntsdale,
Missouri, at the old KatfishKatie's down to the confluence
with the Mississippi. Everybodyyou know gathers from around the
world, you know, but definitelyfrom around the country. And
it's a lot of Canadians as well,just to hang out. And you get
(25:20):
these, these loner adventurertypes, you know, all together
with a bunch of other loneradventurer types, you know. And
it is just a blast. It is sofun. And they have allowed me to
tag along with them. I'm notreally an adventurer, but I love
the river, and now I try to helpout with these rendezvous when I
(25:44):
can. But it's, it's reallydeveloped into a beautiful
community of people, and thenthat sort of branches out,
right? You see, have, you know,you have Big Muddy Mike. And the
Big Muddy Adventures crew in StLouis, you know that. And Mike
was involved in thatBicentennial Lewis and Clark
(26:05):
thing too, you know. And he'sconnected to John Ruske, you
know, down on the lowerMississippi and, and that's
this, like, you know, justgrowing pool of knowledgeable
river guides. And in a in agrowing river culture, places
like paddle stop in New Haventhat's now got a brewery, you
(26:27):
know, but they do guided tripson the Missouri River. Tom
Bailey, up in Kansas City'sdoing trips through downtown
Kansas City. And I met Tom whenhe was a Missouri River paddler
finishing his or well, midway,he was on a trip all the way
down the Missouri to the Gulf ofMexico. We were doing a river
(26:49):
cleanup in Saint Charles. And Iknew about Tom because of Norm's
page, you know. And that kind ofhappens all the time. And so he
stopped by and had dinner withus and helped do the river
cleanup the next day. And then,in a few years, he's doing a
kayak business in Kansas City.
So all these things kind ofinterconnect. And when you sort
(27:13):
of throw the MR340 into the mix,that race from Kansas City to St
Charles, which is now at its20th year this year. You know
that that the growth of thesenetworks and these communities
and the way people connecttogether around paddling on the
Missouri River is it's just abeautiful thing to watch, you
(27:36):
know, and really fun to be apart of.
Dean Klinkenberg (27:42):
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting
myself, just wanted to remindyou that if you'd like to know
more about the MississippiRiver, check out my books. I
write the Mississippi ValleyTraveler guide books for people
who want to get to know theMississippi better. I also write
the Frank Dodge mystery seriesthat is set in places along the
Mississippi. My newest book TheWild Mississippi, goes deep into
(28:07):
the world of Old Man River.
Learn about the varied andcomplex ecosystem supported by
the Mississippi, the plant andanimal life that depends on
them. And where you can go toexperience it all find any of
these wherever books are sold.
I wanted to ask you, like, forthose of us who are not
adventurers, what are some oftwo or three of your favorite
(28:31):
spots to go along the MissouriRiver that really sort of help
you connect and get immersed inthat world? I know because of
you, I know about Ponca StatePark in Nebraska. And I think
that's a really fantastic place,a segment of like, a taste of
what the old Missouri River waslike. You can camp right there
next to the river, and there's alot, a lot of hiking in the
state park. What are maybe acouple of other places that
(28:55):
you're really enthusiasticabout.
Steve Schnarr (29:00):
Well, there is a lot of the river that I have not
paddled or been on. So you know,most of my experiences have been
on the Lower Missouri Riverbelow Gavins Point Dam, the last
dam there on the Missouri River,in that stretch below Gavins
(29:21):
Point Dam to Ponca State Parkthat you talked about. It's
about a 60 mile stretch of theriver that is unchannelized and
and managed by the National ParkService, at least as of
yesterday. I you know, it's hardto know day to day right now
what what's going on, but what'sknown as the Missouri National
(29:43):
Recreation River. And it's justso cool. I mean, it is so cool.
You you paddling down the river.
You know, by the time you you'redone, if you do the whole 60
mile stretch, or a piece likeyou've gotten a feel for. How
this thing works, but it worksso differently than our
channelized river down here,it's really hard to tell, like,
(30:06):
where the shallow water is andwhere the deep water is, and
then it changes. You're in adeep little channel, and then,
boom, it's like, ends in asandbar. Where did that water
go? It's really cool. I lovethat stretch of the river. A
couple of my favorites down inour neck of the woods. I love
(30:27):
Glasgow to Boonville. There'sthis S curve in the river that
goes through Jameson Island Unitof the Big Muddy Wildlife Refuge
in the Lisbon Bottoms Unit ofthe Big Muddy Wildlife Refuge.
This, this S curve really justgot obliterated in the 93 flood.
And it all was purchased to bepart of the Big Muddy and
(30:49):
there's remnants of of shoots,some built by some, you know,
recreated by floods, and somecreated by the Corps of
Engineers as habitat that reallyjust add this wild feel to this
stretch of the river. Andthere's some giant sand bars
that I just love that area. AndGlasgow itself is just a classic
(31:13):
river town. I love that town.
People are wonderful. There'sbuilt up on a bluff, like all
the smart river towns are. Andyou know, the great high shop,
really nice restaurants, just asweet town. Love that town. I
(31:34):
love the stretch right by whereI live, so from either
Booneville or Rocheport, and Ilove putting in at Rocheport,
Moniteau Creek, you know, downto Cooper's Landing. Finish at
Cooper's Landing, which is sucha unique river spot with music
and beer and food trucks, that'sa stretch I love with the
(31:56):
Rocheport Bluffs, the ManitouBluffs and some killer sandbars
in that area. And then reallylove the section from Herman to
New Haven, that's about a 16mile stretch. Also some
beautiful bluffs, sandbars just,just a great stretch the river
(32:20):
in one other area that I love,that in the winter you can walk
out to a lot of times, but it'sSioux Passage Park. There is,
that's the lower end of PelicanIsland. Now, Pelican Island is
like five miles long in the inthe upper end has this, just
this amazing gravel bar. It isjust, it's like, epic. It's just
(32:45):
beautiful. And so again, like inthe winter, you can it can
actually walk out there, butthat, that's a favorite place
for sure. So that's, I didn'tmention where it was, but Sioux
Passage Park is in Florissant,Missouri. So that's kind of
North St Louis County.
Dean Klinkenberg (33:06):
Well, those sound terrific. There's not
enough time in the summer for meto get to all these places. I
better get started here soon.
Well, kind of mindful the timehere. Why don't? Why don't we
sort of wind down a little bitby talking a little bit about
Missouri River Relief. So you'vebeen with them for quite a few
years. Tell us you know what themission is. What does Missouri
River relief do?
Steve Schnarr (33:30):
Yeah, well, our our mission is really about
connecting people to the river,and we have, the way we really
do that is through craftingpowerful experiences like that.
That is really kind of the coreof what we do. And in our main
(33:51):
work is in river cleanups, whichwe've been you know, next year
will be our 25th anniversary ofour first river cleanup. And in
those 24 years so far,volunteers have removed well
over 2 million pounds of oftrash from the river. And it's
(34:16):
they're just magicalexperiences, magical experiences
with with people during theseeducation programs are really
the heart and soul of what we doin the variety of audiences and
the ways we approach it isreally cool. I love it. Earlier
this week, our education teamtook a group from the VA
(34:41):
Hospital that's doing they'reall involved in substance abuse
recovery program, and we've beendoing this for a few years,
where we take them out on theriver for a day, and we teach
about the river. We haveconversations about the river,
we see different parts of theriver, and. If the situation's
right, we will sometimes do alittle river cleanup. We'll do
(35:05):
and then usually stop, stop at agood spot and do some fishing,
you know, along the littlesteep, fluffy edge of of a
sandbar, sometimes or or else,along along a couple of wing
dikes or something. So that man,I mean, every single time that
(35:27):
program is a home run. I meanthese people really deeply
appreciate the experience. Itcan be transformative. Someone
this week said, "You better keepdoing this program. You're
saving lives." You know, that'sa lot, but it's that, it's that
power of being out there on apowerful place like the river
(35:49):
with with people where you feelsafe and you're with people that
you can open up with. You know,these folks are all in this
program together, and it justreally is always transformative.
And I think the river itself is,is the key. You know, the river
does most of the work there,when then we also host canoe
(36:11):
kayak races and work with othercanoe kayak races. So the big
ones for us, the big one is theMR340 that you mentioned, which
is presented by MissouriAmerican Water, one of the major
drinking water providers in thestate of Missouri. This is the
20th year of the race. It wasstarted by Scott Mansker and
(36:35):
2006 as just a test of conceptsort of thing, you know, like,
could we do this? What is thiseven like? How does this work?
The first year there was, I heardifferent numbers, and I'm a
little confused if it was 20 or17 paddlers started the race,
(36:55):
and either 15 or 11 boats. I'veheard both number combinations.
I think it's the latter. But youknow, in in now, last year, we
had 611 paddlers in the race. Sofolks are learning from each
other. They're they're sharingknowledge training as they're
(37:16):
approaching this monumentalaccomplishment that so many
people are doing at the sametime, which is paddling almost
across the state of Missouri injust a few days. So it's race.
Dean Klinkenberg (37:27):
It's crazy to think that it's 20 years doing
this, that way, this, this mindboggling, kind of crazy idea to
to paddle 340 miles on thisriver, and it's attracting so
many people, I will say, as aquick sidebar, based on my
research, I really, I wrote anarticle for Terrain Magazine
that'll be out in July, aboutthe very first race. The
(37:52):
official count seems to havebeen 20 paddlers and 15 boats.
Okay, that's that's a long wayfrom 611.
Steve Schnarr (38:01):
Yeah.
Dean Klinkenberg (38:05):
So, so when, just, when does that kick off
this year? What are the dates?
Steve Schnarr (38:10):
This year. So, yeah, it's an interesting thing
about this race is it movesaround. It follows the full
moon, because it goes all nightlong. So we want to have the
most light possible out there.
So this year, that is July 8through 11th. So race start is
in the morning of Tuesday, July8, and everybody has to wrap it
up by nine o'clock on Friday,July 11. That that finish line
(38:35):
is at Lewis and Clark Boathousein St Charles, Missouri. So
Missouri, American Water does aton of work to create a kind of
a beach there at the end, whereeverybody can land and end this
amazing journey. You know, it's,
Dean Klinkenberg (38:59):
You can get out of your boat and collapse
it's a lot.
and and dream about a shower anda good night's sleep somewhere,
right?
Steve Schnarr (39:04):
Yes, yes, yeah.
It's, it's, it's an emotionalscene at the finish line. Is
such an accomplishment forabsolutely everybody who makes
it, and whether they're, youknow, beating their own personal
record, or whether it's theirfirst time, whatever the
situation is, it, is it is it'san accomplishment to make it to
(39:28):
the end, a lifetimeaccomplishment. And there are a
lot of tears shed there, thereat that finish line.
Dean Klinkenberg (39:39):
Yeah, then you also do the Race to the Dome,
Steve Schnarr (39:43):
Yeah, that's right, which is ends in right?
Jefferson City. There's either a16 mile or a 27 mile race ends
in Jefferson City, the beautifulNoren Access with Wilson
Serenity Point. And that is aboth of those are fundraisers
for Missouri River Relief injust just lockstep with our
(40:08):
mission of connecting people tothis river and building the
community of people that lovethe Missouri River.
Dean Klinkenberg (40:15):
And I'll just add my testimonial to it. I've
been lucky enough to be at acouple of cleanups for Missouri
River Relief and I did the Raceto the Dome one year. Fantastic
group of people, greatorganization. I love the work
that you do. It's so importantto find ways to connect people
to our big rivers, and the wayyou describe people's reaction,
(40:35):
how they pulled in. I think itspeaks volumes of quality to
work as well. So, great job overthere. You're based in central
Missouri. Well, is thereanything else you want to say
about Missouri River Relief orthe Missouri River?
Steve Schnarr (40:58):
No, that's dangerous. I mean, I could
probably go on and on, you know?
I guess one thing I do want tosay about Missouri River Relief
is that it is, it is aboutpeople. We're not an advocacy
organization, you know, we are.
We're not in Jefferson City orWashington DC fighting for
(41:20):
policy like that's just not whowe are. What we are is, is about
bringing people in the rivertogether. So the way that that
sort of plays out is, it's abeautiful thing. So we have a
kind of a central core of what,what is called the Missouri
River relief crew. And therethat is sort of people in in
(41:44):
many different cities along theMissouri River, but in
particular in the Columbia area,which is where we started,
people that the Missouri RiverRelief is just maybe one of the
most important things in theirlife, you know? It's, it's
something they give a lot ofenergy to. And in other crew
(42:07):
members have a lot of thingsthey give energy to, you know,
but they're also part of theRiver Relief crew. So these are
the the behind the scenesvolunteers that travel to all
these different towns where wedo river cleanups and education
programs that make it happen.
You know, they learn how to dothese education programs. They
(42:31):
learn how to drive boats. Theylearn whatever the role is to
make these volunteer programsefficient and safe and
inspiring. And there none ofwhat we do would be possible
without these people. And it'san ever growing community of
people. And beyond that, youhave this community of
(42:53):
volunteers that help put on theMR340 that helped do that, show
up to river cleanups, you know,and sometimes bring their Boy
Scout troop, or they bring theirschool group or their church, or
whatever it is, their cricketteam. This, this ever growing
network of people that thatdevelop this love and attachment
(43:17):
to the river and this, thiscommunity feeling of doing, you
know, accomplishing somethingthat's built around this river,
and then our staff is just likeastonishing how talented and
hardworking and passionate theyare. We have 10 full time staff
members right now, and most ofus you know are bringing
(43:41):
multitudes of talents to thisteam. And so this the River
Relief staff. I mean, I am justso grateful to be to work with
the quality of people that Iwork with. Last year, we hired a
new director, Jami Wade, andshe's brought just so many
skills that we needed. She'sbrought to the table. One more
(44:04):
really exciting thing that'shappening is the Nature
Conservancy was donated a pieceof property that used to be
Katfish Katie's at Huntsdale,Missouri, and they've invited
Missouri River leaf to be partof the development of that that
property. So they're doing someamazing agroforestry projects
(44:28):
there, planting kind of adiversity of native trees,
including some pecan and walnutplantations, as you know, an
example and a test case ofutilizing Missouri River
floodplain to grow perennialfood crops instead of, you know,
exclusively corn and soybeans.
(44:50):
And that's the thing that'shappening. I mean, up by
Brunswick, there's commercialpecan production in the Missouri
River Bottoms. It's, it's athing, you know, it's not, this
isn't, like completelyinnovative, but the way that
they're approaching it isinnovative. And so anyway,
(45:12):
we're, we're going to be, we'reworking on developing plans on
that property and a nearbyproperty to hopefully move our
offices and have some educationspaces and then some
infrastructure right on theriver where we can really do
ramp up our education programsand do way more more efficiently
(45:35):
with more diverse audiences, ofbringing people to the river, to
the same place. This is reallyexciting. It's a long term
project, and it's kind of a nextphase in the world, in life of
Missouri River Relief.
Dean Klinkenberg (45:52):
Well, that sounds awesome. So for folks who
want to keep up with what youand Missouri River Relief are
doing, where are the best placesto do so?
Steve Schnarr (46:02):
Yeah, probably our website is riverrelief.org
so you can see a lot of theprograms that we have going on.
One of those is a monthlyspeakers series in Columbia.
Greenway Network in St Charlesis part of this as well. And
they do the monthly Big Muddyspeaker series in St Charles,
(46:24):
which is just fabulous, andsomeone's picking that up in
Kansas City. That website isBigMuddySpeakers.org. The MR340
website, MR340.org also has aFacebook group which is
fascinating, which is MissouriAmerican Water MR340 on
Facebook. And yeah, at thispoint, we do utilize Facebook
(46:46):
and Instagram, and those are allgood places. You can sign up for
our email newsletter and reallyfind out what's going on month
to month.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:00):
I will, I'll post links to all those in the
show notes so people can can getto it through that route as
well. Steve, thank you so muchfor taking time today to share
your knowledge and your passionfor the Missouri River with us.
Deeply appreciate it.
Steve Schnarr (47:17):
Awesome. Dean, it is a blast to to hang out with
you a little bit. And I loveyour podcast. I absolutely love
your books. Keep it up. You arean important advocate and friend
to the Mississippi River and thetowns that live along it. Thank
you for the work you do.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:38):
Well, thank you, and maybe now the Missouri
River will add to the that scopeas well so.
Steve Schnarr (47:43):
Yeah, let's do it. Let's go paddling.
Dean Klinkenberg (47:45):
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this
episode, subscribe to the serieson your favorite podcast app so
you don't miss out on futureepisodes. I offer the podcast
for free, but when you supportthe show with a few bucks
through Patreon, you help keepthe program going. Just go to
patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. Ifyou want to know more about the
(48:05):
Mississippi River, check out mybooks. I write the Mississippi
Valley Traveler guide books forpeople who want to get to know
the Mississippi better. I alsowrite the Frank Dodge mystery
series that's set in placesalong the river. Find them
wherever books are sold. TheMississippi Valley traveler
podcast is written and producedby me, Dean Klinkenberg.
Original Music by Noah Fence.
See you next time.
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