June 1, 2026 • 37 mins
John D'Agostino from Coinbase reveals why cryptocurrency and Bitcoin are reshaping institutional adoption, hedge funds, and bitcoin trade strategy. Is crypto risky? Here's the truth.
John shares his personal journey from a catastrophic hedge fund failure to becoming a senior leader at Coinbase, one of the most trusted names in digital assets. He explains why Bitcoin is a proven long-term inflation hedge, how stablecoins are growing at a pace rivaling the smartphone, and why blockchain is the next evolution of financial infrastructure. Whether you're exploring your first bitcoin trade or managing institutional portfolios, this episode will change how you think about money, risk, and the future of finance.
0:00 – Introduction & Welcome
1:29 – John's Background: From Brooklyn to Harvard
4:15 – Turning Down Goldman Sachs for Vinny Viola & the NYMEX
9:50 – The Hedge Fund That Blew Up: 3 Lessons From Failure
15:15 – Why Bitcoin Is a Long-Term Inflation Hedge
19:48 – When Did Institutions Start Taking Crypto Seriously?
24:22 – Biggest Misconceptions About Crypto & Blockchain
33:13 – Stablecoins: The Fastest Growing Financial Technology
40:50 – Crypto Is to Finance What Uber Was to Taxis
🎙 Hosts:
Tsvetta Kaleynska — Consumer Data & Social Listening Expert
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Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:00):
Welcome to the Money Signal Podcast from
Main Street to Wall Street.
I am joined by John D'Agostinotoday for an amazing
conversation around him as anentrepreneur, investor, speaker,
and financial leader in thespace.
So welcome, John.
Thank you so much for coming onthe Money Signal Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:22):
Svetta, thank you for having me and
congratulations on what Ibelieve is one of the first
inaugural episodes of the MoneySignal Podcast.
It's wonderful.
You and Peter should be very,very proud.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:33):
Thank you so much.
We're very excited to have you.
I know we've been trying to getyou on the books for quite a few
weeks, and you've been verybusy.
You're a very busy man to catch,but I think that comes uh that's
for a reason.
I, when I was preparing for thisepisode and I pulled up your
profile and I got a hold ofbasically all the things that
you're doing, I was absolutelyfascinated.
(00:53):
So no wonder that we couldn'tget you on.
But we're very excited thatyou're here for um for today's
episode.
So today I would love to diveinto a few kind of like
categories, if you will, and oftopics.
Uh, starting off more with moreinformation, obviously, about
who's John, like what's yourbackground and how did you even
get to uh to do what you dotoday.
(01:14):
Uh tell us a bit more aboutobviously your um current
leadership position at Coinbase,which we'd love to hear more.
And then we could talk moreabout signals.
That's what we really arelooking to give to our audience.
Uh, signals come in differentshapes and forms.
So while the show is called themoney signal, obviously we're
not going to talk about anystocks today specifically or
(01:36):
anything related to trading.
Uh, but we would love to learnmore about signals that you read
during your entrepreneurial umjourney and during your
leadership journey becauseyou're quite senior at Coinbase.
And I'd love to learn more abouthow did you really start
connecting the dots andidentifying these opportunities
that then became almost like asignal for or like a lane for
(01:58):
you to go and uh become who youare today?
Uh one of the great leaders ofNew York City financial
institutions.
Um, so that's what I'd love totalk about.
So why don't we start off withlike who is actually John
D'Agostino and how did youreally get into the financial uh
and the investing space?
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Sure.
Uh that's fairly simple.
I kind of fell backwards intoit.
Um so did my undergrad.
So I think like you, I'm animmigrant, um, and uh grew up
with parents who were uhwonderful.
My parents didn't finishcollege, didn't go to high
school, um, and put me throughbusiness school uh with almost
no debt, which is just anamazing thing that I think back
(02:39):
then uh a working class familywas able to accomplish.
And that'll kind of tie into myum interest in uh digital assets
as a mechanism for for bridgingwealth inequality.
But you know, I was very, verylucky, even though my parents
didn't have academic uhtraining, they pushed me, they
saw some talent in me, and I wasable to, I was lucky enough I
took tests well.
So I was able to get good scoreson standardized tests, I was
(03:01):
able to get into schools likelike Harvard and MIT, and um, I
had parents who were willing to,you know, uh beg, beg, steal,
borrow, whatever it took to getme there.
And so I think like a lot ofimmigrant families who who
you're lucky enough, and I domean lucky, I think you know you
obviously had talent.
I had some talent, but thereality is we were still
extraordinarily lucky to be inthat position, to go to those
schools and and and get that legup from from parents who who
(03:25):
moved here with nothing.
Um, you know, I I was under alot of pressure to do something
with those degrees.
I was, I wanted to be an actor.
And they were like, no, no,we're not we're not paying for
college for you to be an actor.
It's not gonna happen.
Um I skipped a few gradesgrowing up, so I was very
immature when I graduatedcollege.
And so they let me go to LA tobe an actor for a year just to
get out of my system.
Yeah, it was fun.
I did a lot of people.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (03:44):
I missed that in my research.
Where was that?
SPEAKER_02 (03:46):
That was a long time ago.
I did a couple, I got a couplecommercials, I got some national
commercials, I made some money,I weighed tables, did all that,
and then realized, okay, I don'twant to do this.
Came back to New York, took theLSAT, took the G Mat, um, was
lucky enough to get into uhHarvard Business School and um
uh you know, panicked after myfirst year because I still
didn't know what I wanted to do.
(04:07):
Um, graduated, and when youdon't know what you want to do
with an MBA from a good school,you go into consulting.
So I went to go work for a BCGconsulting firm for a little
bit.
And that was great.
I got to see a bunch ofdifferent industries, everything
was was fantastic.
And then look, the way I gotinto finance was really simple.
Um I couldn't afford to go tobusiness school.
So I had won a fellowship fromthis organization called the
(04:27):
National Italian AmericanFoundation.
Can't make this stuff up.
And I was thanking them forpaying for 80% of my MBA.
And the the man of the man ofhonor that night at that event
was this guy, Vinny Vinny Viola,Vincent Viola, who was chairman
of the New York MercantileExchange.
And I got to meet him.
And he said, What do you do?
And I said, I don't know.
(04:48):
Um and he said, You work for me.
And, you know, I I was a HarvardMBA.
I was, you know, you're supposedto get this entry-level Goldman
Sachs position.
And Vinny was like, you're goingto be my basically executive
assistant.
And I don't suggest this foranyone.
I don't, I'm not saying this wasa smart move at the time, but I
(05:09):
was I was not focused andpassionate.
I did have a job, I did have ajob offer, I had a good job
offer.
I won't say the name of thefirm, but a big brand name
investment bank was making me anoffer.
And I was, all right, I gotthis.
I'm an immigrant kid whose ffamily never made more than
$30,000 a year.
I'm through Harvard MBA withalmost no debt.
I've got a offer in hand to bein the investment banking
(05:31):
training program at big namefirm, or I can go be the
executive assistant to thischarismatic, crazy,
quasi-billionaire guy.
Um and uh it was a dumb move,but I just I wasn't here's
here's what here's what here'sthe thinking, my thinking.
I I was not passionate about theiBanking career.
(05:51):
And I had this lesson I alwaystell, I just spoke to a bunch of
kids yesterday.
Um I don't believe in carpetdiem.
You have to, you know, just youcan't always go with what's fun.
That's just that's just silly,right?
You always have to have gruntwork.
I do think, though, if you don'tgo with your passion plus your
skill set, you will fail.
And the reason I know this isthere was a friend of mine in at
our at Harvard Business School.
Um, I won't say his name.
I his whatever his, he wouldn'tmind.
(06:12):
His name's Bong.
And and I I was smarter thanBong.
I knew I was.
I love him, but I was smarter.
I had more intellectualhorsepower than him.
But we took a fixed incomeprice, uh fixed income class
together, uh, second year, andhe just crushed me.
Like, and I was it was I wascouldn't understand because I
was smarter than this guy.
And at least I was back then,maybe not now.
But anyway, but I realized heliked he enjoyed it and I found
(06:33):
it excruciating.
And it just hit me.
I'm like, I I don't I I don'thave that much intellectual
horsepower that that I canovercompensate for somebody who
genuinely finds the topicinteresting.
So I'm sitting there, go, I cango to this big brand name, the
best backing firm.
I was just having panic attacksabout doing that work.
And I looked, I thought, youknow, okay, I had enough
intellectual horsepower.
I had the brand name of a goodbusiness school to get into that
(06:55):
program.
I I interview well.
And yeah, could I do it?
Pro possibly, probably.
Could I compete with people whohad all the advantages of not
more than I had?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
And the same intellectual horsepower with
with a with a passionate driveto be that.
No, they're gonna crush me.
They're gonna crush me.
But when I thought about workingfor Vinny, I was like, that
sounds pretty cool.
It's scary, but but I I can seemyself getting excited about
that.
And so I showed up at the NyMexand said, let's do it.
And, you know, a couple yearslater, he made me head of
(07:26):
strategy for the New YorkMercantile Exchange.
And um, the rest is kind ofhistory.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (07:30):
That's crazy.
I want to say that Vinny was avery lucky man um to get you.
I used to it was luck that gotyou into Harvard, but it sounded
like it's actually a lot of workand that you not only tested
well, but that you basicallyknew how to um uh understand
what's important, which was toget into Harvard.
(07:51):
You were educated enough, youknew how to, you know, get in
and to get out without debt.
So that's actually uh one of myfavorite topics is debt, because
as an immigrant, I you we don'tunderstand the concept of debt.
And then you come to America andeveryone talks about debt and
school debt, which is actuallyhuge.
Um, so Vinny was a very smartman to get you right out of
(08:12):
Harvard.
Um, and it sounded like a greatopportunity for both of you.
So uh that's pretty fascinating.
Now, um after that career move,like what were what what did you
learn?
What was the one thing because Imean you started with obviously
a non-traditional career.
So again, you had a big offerfrom a firm, which you decided
(08:32):
to turn down and put your uhbelief into Vinny's uh project
and and Vinny's company, right?
Uh, but what what did you learn?
What was it, you know, like ifyou had to basically compare the
learnings across the differentplaces you've been, was there
like one because the firstcareer I would say is like the
most important.
The first job that you get, youbasically amass a ton of
(08:53):
knowledge and then you decidewhere where to go to next.
What was that one thing, if orseveral things that you think
you really learned?
Um, something that maybe youwouldn't have gotten anywhere
else.
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
Oh, I know exactly what it is.
And it's a good segue intodigital assets and and modern
finance.
Um after uh so I go to HBS, I Igo work for Vinny in kind of a
not a very senior position, buta cool position.
I got to do some cool stuff.
I got to build the first MiddleEastern energy exchange.
I got to see the NIMEX gopublic.
Uh uh, Vinny bought the NewJersey Nets, I helped out on
(09:25):
that deal.
It was it was awesome.
It was so much fun.
Didn't make a lot of money, butlike I had the coolest job, like
one year out of HBS at 22 yearsold.
It was a blast.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (09:34):
Fascinating.
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
Then I go, I leave with the president of the
exchange, we go start a hedgefund.
Back then, hedge funds were likethe hot thing.
And we go start a natural gasoptions hedge fund, and a year
and a half later we blow upcatastrophically, and my life
turns upside down in a way Icouldn't possibly imagine.
And the the lesson, the I'm nothappy, everyone goes, Oh, you
should be, you know, do you didyou learn from like no, no, I'm
not happy that happened.
(09:55):
I it sucked, I wish it wouldn'thappen.
But if I'm honest with myselfabout the lesson I learned, and
this kind of leads into moneysignals in crypto, um, the
reason it hit me so hard is Idraw, I drew, um, now you
mentioned you're not in finance,so I'm gonna I'm not gonna try
to be wonky, but I drew what'scalled a straight line
interpolation um of my life.
Now, a linear interpolation justmeans you have two points.
(10:15):
You have two points on a graph,and then you draw a line to
them.
And then the mistake everybodymakes is they extend that line
going forward.
So my data points were poor kidfrom Brooklyn, get into Regis,
get into Williams, get intoHarvard, get this amazing job at
NyMex.
I had these four data pointsover the last, say, five to
seven years of my life.
And I drew them on a chart,which was my life.
(10:36):
And then you connect this linethrough them.
And then you say, okay, and thenyou just keep extending the line
and go, oh, this is my life.
I'm linear interpoling that youthe stock was five dollars ago.
It was$10 yesterday.
It's gonna keep going up by100%.
I just linear interpolate itout.
And that's not how life works.
That's not how stocks work,that's not how anything works.
But but we all make thatmistake, right?
(10:57):
Peter, I'm sure if he was here,it would be like, we all make
that it's just human, we like tosee patterns and extend patterns
out.
So I extended this pattern of mylife.
Okay.
I got I had a hard I had a hardbeginning.
It was tough growing up.
You know, we we we grew up undervery meager circumstances.
I had a dad who just killedhimself supporting me, worked
three jobs, never saw him,tremendous amount of respect.
(11:20):
And then suddenly now, becauseof my parents and and how
wonderful they were, I have thisamazing opportunity.
Now it's just this.
And then the the company Iworked for collapsed.
And now I have this new datapoint, which is down here.
So now what do we do?
Because we're we're we're we'resilly humans.
I go from being overlyoptimistic that my life is gonna
be this linear interpolated outsuccess story to now I reverse
(11:44):
that linear interpolation andnow my life's gonna be horrible.
So I don't know if we can curseon your podcast.
I won't curse on your podcast.
It's gonna go straight line downto zero.
Equally insane, equally damagingto overly optimistic.
Um, that was the best lesson Ilearned is to not linear
interpolate out signals aboutlife, about happiness, about
(12:07):
money, about crypto, aboutstocks, about bonds.
That's not how life works.
It's not a straight line toanywhere ever.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (12:16):
And it in the good lessons that come along the
way, right?
It's not a straight line.
It's actually, it looks likeit's easy getting from one point
to the other, at least in youknow, people, other people's
eyes.
But then once you live throughit and you learn the lessons
along the way, you actuallyrealize that it's more like a
curved line and goes downhilland uphill like uh a mountain,
hills and mountains.
(12:36):
Fascinating, fascinating story.
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
Svetl, it's so important.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (12:39):
So failures teach us other lessons and new
lessons, right?
There's successes, it's great tobe successful and it's great to
be on on top.
The Bulgarian expression is tobe on the cherry tree on top of
the cherry tree, meaning you'reyou're at the top of at the
height of your success, butobviously failure teaches us
other uh lessons.
What was one of those lessons umwhen it came to the failure of
(13:01):
your company?
What is it?
What would you have donedifferently?
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
Oh, there's nothing I could have done.
I was a junior in the company.
There's nothing I could havedone.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (13:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:08):
I think what I could have done is handled it better.
And again, that goes back to mymy lesson of not not thinking
that that linear interpolation,not looking at that price chart
and saying, oh, Bitcoin was upuh X amount over three years is
going to continue infinitely.
And if we have a mean uh meanreversion or a price correction,
it's no longer a good assetclass.
It's no longer a good inflationhitch.
Um the mistake we may, themistakes we make is we assume
(13:31):
patterns will continue.
We also mismatch duration.
Again, that's using anotherwonky finance term.
Um and we've seen this recentlyin the um all the news about
these private credit funds uhsuffering from redemptions.
Uh that's a problem of mismatchduration.
It means you're looking, you youneed something short-term, but
you lock it up long term.
Or you want the benefits ofbeing locked up long-term, but
(13:54):
you put it into a short-termvehicle.
Right.
That if we if we think about,like I looked at a short period
of my life and assumed that wasemblematic of the entire
entirety of my life.
Um if we look at something likeBitcoin and we say, okay, um, we
want this to be an inflationhedge.
Well, inflation occurs bymonetary debasing over decades.
(14:15):
But yet we look at short-termprice movements and say, over
this one year period, Bitcoinbehaved this way, it's not a
good inflation edge anymore.
That's a mismatch duration.
That's a real problem.
No one that I know wouldrecommend uh investing in an
asset like Bitcoin to managevery, very short-term cash flow.
That's what stable coins arefor.
If you're investing in somethinglike Bitcoin for long-term
hedging against monetarydebasement or inflation, you
(14:38):
have to match it to the processof monetary base debasement or
inflation, which is monetarypolicy over decades.
So I learned to answer yourquestion, the lesson I learned
from my catastrophic abysmalfailure, three lessons.
One is call it a catastrophicabysmal failure, because that's
what it was.
Don't gloss over it.
Don't pretend, yeah, I couldn'thave changed it, but I was a
part of it.
(14:58):
I obviously contributed to it.
So the radical honesty ofacknowledging when you're wrong.
Secondly, is don't linearinterpolate out success or
failure.
And thirdly, is get yourduration matching right.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:10):
Well, I will remember all three of them as an
entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
We talked about being parents, right?
Okay.
Would you ever take your child'sbehavior in one day and
extrapolate it out and sayingthat's who she is?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:23):
No, definitely not.
Of course not.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
They have good, right?
They're never as good as theirbest day.
They're never as bad as theirworst day.
You as a parent, you know yourchild, right?
You know your child because youhave, I don't want to give
information about your children,but you have the duration of
your time with them.
They have birth to now.
That's how you know who theyare, not one day's performance.
That's crazy.
So why would we j why would wejudge a stock or a bond or a
(15:46):
crypto asset by uh uh theincorrect duration of
performance?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:50):
Very interesting.
Actually, in one of the umepisodes that we did with Peter,
we talked about inflation and wetalked about Bitcoin and crypto
in general.
And I don't have the statisticsand I don't remember them
because again, I have a brainfog from parenting.
Uh, but it was something alongthe lines of um on average,
consumers talk about inflationin the US.
(16:11):
I want to say 3.2 millionconversations on a rolling
30-day basis.
So think about this is US only,US consumers in English language
only.
And out of those conversations Ihad analyzed, um, the most
interesting finding was thatalmost half of the consumers
during the time frame ofanalysis had mentioned that they
(16:35):
see crypto and gold.
Those are the two things thatthey see as the safest place to
invest during if inflationtimes.
So it's interesting that youmentioned inflation to me.
Um, and also it ties well intosome of my next questions about
crypto.
Sure.
Moving into crypto.
Um, but yeah, those are this wasbasically just one statistic.
(16:56):
And again, I don't have anumber, but that was one of the
episodes that Peter and I haddone.
SPEAKER_02 (17:01):
It's intuitively it intuitively follows with a
general understanding andawareness that interest rates
are not matching inflation.
And you don't have to be a wonkyperson to know that the value of
your dollar is decreasingrelative to your ability to earn
more dollars through therisk-free rate.
Everyone, it doesn't matter whatlevel of education you have, it
(17:21):
doesn't matter how financiallyastute you are.
We feel it every day.
We feel it in our inability tobuy a starter home.
We feel it in our sticker shockwhen we get to the counter, the
grocery counter.
We we just know it intuitively.
People are smart.
They intuitively know aboutmoney in terms of value of our
time versus what we can purchasefor that time.
(17:42):
Right.
That's our most valuablecommodity is time.
We can only work until we die,right?
So we just know in even if wedon't understand interest rates
and don't understand uhamortization and all this stuff,
we just know intuitively I'mworking harder and I'm getting
less.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
And that then you start querying, and we have
these amazing vehicles now toquery things.
And then the AIs are pushing,oh, you're you're you're talking
about inf monetary debasement.
So it's makes no doubt in mymind that more people are, even
if they don't know what the termmeans, they're becoming more
aware that this is a problem.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (18:13):
Yeah.
And I loved also from theconsumer standpoint, because
again, if you put in perspectivewho's on social media and talks,
like the statistic that Imentioned, over three million
discussions from U.S.
consumers on a rolling like 30%.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
And I bet that's up a lot from two years ago.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (18:26):
Oh, uh hundreds of percent um
difference.
But the people who go on socialmedia and talk are the younger
generation.
So the ones that you justmentioned, the ones who
basically don't can't have astarter home, the ones who go to
the store, I mean, who go to thecoffee shop.
I went today in New York Citycoffee with oat milk, uh, 735.
Like is that's crazy.
Uh, but that's where I wasreally surprised that this same
(18:49):
generation that goes on socialmedia and talks about all of
these topics and inflation, theyfirmly believe that their safest
place to put their money iscrypto, which is very
interesting to me.
And then that comes with my nextquestion, which is when did
crypto, when did financialinstitutions and consumers like
really start taking crypto moreseriously?
(19:10):
Was there a period?
I mean, you've been in this umworld of finance crypto um
longer than I have.
I mean, I don't again, I've I'mjust entering it now, and I
can't really tell, but it feelslike my generation, millennials
and the younger ones, the GenZs, are really into it.
And they believe that's thesafest investment for them.
SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
So I would say uh I I view, I mean, crypto Bitcoin's
been around for about uh 14years.
Um I think it's been aninstitutionally investable asset
class for the last seven-ishyears, five to seven years.
And there's no like one eventthat happened.
You can argue the Genius Act wasa seminal event, but but that's
from a US perspective.
Globally, what we've just seenis a gradually increasing,
(19:55):
stronger infrastructure.
You know, Coinbase going publicnine years ago or so, I forget.
Um, we have uh not just Coinbasebut other high-quality
institutions.
We have the gradual emergen.
I mean, there have been someseminal events.
I'd say the launch of the ETFswas a big one, Genius Act was a
big one, uh MiFID in the EU wasa big one.
You know, tra tracing back thelast seven years, there's been
(20:15):
five to seven kind of seminalevents that say, okay, we're
we're now that steps up theinstitutional credibility.
And what's happening in each ofthose events, and then there's
also been price retrenchments,and then there's been these, you
know, FTX debacle and whatnot.
And each of those has made theindustry stronger because with
each of those events, you'reseeing fewer and fewer large
(20:36):
players failing.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:38):
And so gradually over time, people realize, okay,
it's getting more it's the UIsare getting easier.
Um, you know, obviously not justCoinbase, but other custody
solutions are getting easier.
We hear news that the USgovernment uses, you know, is
using Coinbase for C's Bitcoin.
Um, you know, se uh severalcentral banks, the Czech
Republic and a few others havestarted buying it.
So there's no one kind of event,it's just a gradual comfort.
(21:01):
And then the second part of thatis um, you know, there's a more
data and a growing realizationthat our crypto, Bitcoin, and a
few others, including includedin a portfolio, helps to beat on
a risk adjuster basis inflation.
And when you talk aboutsomething being safe, what does
being safe mean?
So safe can mean I don't want tolose my money.
(21:23):
That's one way of being safe.
Fine, I don't want to lose anyprinciple of my money.
Then you don't invest inobviously any risk asset or
stocks, anything like that.
Um but but big but if you knowfor a fact that sticking your
money in a checking account andpaying 0.01% interest, if you
know for a fact that inflationis going to exist at two, two
(21:44):
and a half percent, that'sthat's the stated target.
So I I would I would argue tosomebody if if you know for
certainty, one hundred percentcertainty, uh that inflation
will decay and erode yourability to afford the lifestyle
you want and need at a futuredate.
Least safe thing you can do isto be safe and stick it in a
checking account.
Because there is a if I told youif you're going to die in 10
(22:09):
years with 100% certainty if youdo nothing versus if you do this
thing, you have a better thanaverage chance, a better chance
than doing nothing at surviving.
Um I I I can't speak foreveryone, but but assuming I
want to live past 10 years, I'mgonna take that risk.
(22:29):
I'm going to take that chance.
I'm going to have that surgery,I'm going to uh try this
experimental uh um uh try thisthis cocktail, whatever it is.
We we know with certainty thatinflation will erode into our
our purchasing power.
And so I'd argue the the leastsafe thing you can do is
nothing.
And so when you once you come tothat realization, you say, okay,
what do I need to do?
(22:50):
And then you start looking athow do I inflation hedge?
And I was on the board of Tudorwhen they did this, Tudor Asset
Management, one of the topcommodity hedge funds.
They looked at this about fiveyears ago.
And they said, if we do nothing,inflation is going to just erode
into our cash.
So they did a sweep and they didan analysis.
They said, okay, there's no oneperfect inflation hedge.
Gold is good sometimes, not goodother times.
(23:10):
And they set away a basket ofcommodities that is inclusive of
gold, uh, prime real estate, um,uh certain types of bonds, and
Bitcoin performs better as along-term inflation hedge.
So that's that's not everyonehas the analytical capabilities
of Tudor, but they're in they'rethey're searching for a
(23:30):
solution.
And when you do the work,Bitcoin becomes part of that
solution.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (23:35):
Okay.
This is incredibly interestingto me as someone, and thank you
so much for the explanation aswell.
Again, I as someone who doesn'tcome from finance um or
understands much about you knowthe different financial areas,
this is this was very useful.
Now I actually have, and some ofmy questions could be a little
silly, so please excuse me ifthat's a silly question.
(23:55):
But I wonder from I'm I'm amarketer.
I come from marketing andbranding.
Basically, my whole backgroundhas been like media marketing
and media and media analytics.
And I just was thinking in termsof like how does when when
crypto started, so you said 14years ago, obviously Bitcoin
kind of enters uh the world andis introduced to the world and
(24:17):
people.
I think that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
It's it's it's directionally wrapped.
But if I get it wrong, I'll beembarrassed.
But I think 14, I think 14years.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (24:22):
Yeah.
But I can imagine the the WallStreet, especially the older
generation of thinking traders,investors, probably didn't take
it seriously, right?
They didn't take cryptoseriously.
Some still don't.
Right.
And some still, some stilldon't.
I mean, I know uh Peter always,because I always ask him, like,
tell me more, teach me more,tell me more about crypto.
And he always says, Oh, I'm notthe best person to teach you
(24:45):
that.
I think because obviously hetrades on the floor, so he's you
know, very close to stocks umversus crypto.
But I always wonder, like, howand when did um, you know, was
there any type of likemisconceptions or currently are
there any type of misconceptionsthat you see in the field?
Could be from institutions andhow they understand crypto.
(25:06):
And how do you, I mean,obviously you don't go and like
encourage people to invest inanything.
Um, but uh, do you see what whatare those misconceptions that
you think most maybe could beolder, uh, the older generation
are still institutions that seeit?
Because again, and we've seenwith this administration there
have been updates about, youknow, uh crypto and how crypto
is seen.
(25:26):
But yeah, what what would thosebe?
SPEAKER_02 (25:28):
I think the biggest individual misconceptions is
that it's unregulated anduntraceable.
In fact, crypto is is is highlyregulated.
Um, and the the mechanisms bywhich you transact in crypto,
which are called blockchains,are incredibly transparent.
They're they're literallydesigned to be publicly visible.
I think those are the twobiggest misconceptions is it's
regulated differently, it's asit should be, because it's a
(25:49):
different creature thantraditional securities.
Um, but this notion that like uhcapital is invisible within
crypto could not be further fromthe truth.
It's actually the mosttransparent form of value
transfer.
I think that's the m- that's thecommon perception that I have to
correct with individuals.
Um again, putting aside whetheryou want to invest in the
assets, the tokens, Bitcoin,Ethereum, others, that that's do
(26:10):
your own research, figure out ifthat's right for you.
But the infrastructure layerthat is blockchain, that where
all these things move on, um,it's it's it's transparent, it's
open, it's secure.
And uh the companies likeCoinbase that are helping people
buy and sell and hold theseassets are regulated five ways
to Sunday.
That's the biggestmisconception.
On the institutional side, Iwould say it's really
(26:31):
bifurcating now because prettymuch every GCIB bank is now have
now has a crypto team, is nowworking very, very strongly,
very, very quickly to integrateum crypto offerings into.
We have a service called cryptoas a service.
We're working with pretty muchever hundreds and hundreds of
clients, banks, insurance, foranyone that touches consumer
retail is coming to us andsaying, how do we offer this
(26:53):
safely to our uh to ourcustomers?
Um but then there's this divide,and then there's a bunch of
other companies that don'tunderstand it or think it's not
in their in their wheelhouse.
Um you're you're in marketing,you're in branding, so you
understand.
Um, the growth rate for stablecoin usage is astronomical.
It is on par with the earlygrowth rate of the personal
(27:14):
computer and the smartphone, um,in the sense of it being three
to five years old in in modernform, it's a penetrated US
average consumer at a rateequivalent to the personal
computer, like beating thepersonal computer a little bit,
a little bit lagging thesmartphone, but right in between
the two.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (27:31):
That's the part nobody gets.
Every major exchange now hasannounced publicly that they are
going to begin the process ofissuing tokenized securities,
either in parallel or afterhours.
I've been through this before.
When I joined the New YorkMercantile Exchange, just like
asked Peter, it was a bunch ofback then mostly men, um,
(27:52):
screaming and yelling andtrading stocks, equities, and
commodities.
That's how it was.
And by the way, this isn't 1962,this is 2008.
And they told people like Peterand me, it'll never change.
Because open outcry, thespecialist system, open outcry
on the floor of the New York,that's the way it's always.
I remember I remember this oneold trader, great guy.
(28:14):
And he's not, they're not crazy.
I can see why their point ofview at that time it worked
really well.
But he grabbed me one day and hewent, you know, because I was
working on some technology tolike digitize the floor.
And he goes, you know, Johnny,there's a reason the design of
the spoon hasn't changed sincethe day of the caveman.
It works.
And I'm like, yeah, that'sthat's a great point.
(28:35):
Like that's right.
Not everything evolves thatquickly.
But but you know, Peter knows,like, you know, they were
specialists screamed up and downon the shape.
So so I just see tokenizationand blockchain infrastructure as
that next evolution.
We went from open outcry to DTCCand the systems that NICE uses
and digit the electronic systemsthat we built.
Ours was called span and calledClearport.
(28:57):
Um, and that was a greatevolution 20 years ago, 30 years
ago.
And now we're ready for the nextevolution.
How many of us use the sametechnology we used 30 years ago
in our daily lives?
Right.
Give me a single example of ususing the same tech we used 25,
30 years ago.
It's it's it's ludicrous, right?
We use it for nostalgicpurposes.
To have our financialinfrastructure run off of
(29:18):
30-year-old tech is just assilly as using a Commodore 64 to
play Call of Duty.
Like it's it's just, it's just,it's it's crazy.
So stable coin usage, we've gonefrom 300 million users of stable
coins to 500 million users.
70% of people polled outside theUS said they prefer to get paid
in stable coins.
You can settle instantaneously.
(29:40):
Think about think about the lasttime you tried to download
something on a plane orsomewhere, like stream a movie,
and it took more than thinkabout the last time it took more
than like 15 seconds for a webpage to load.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (29:55):
I was down immediately.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
Think of how you you you you just got flushed.
Like you got read there.
How angry would you be?
I'm talking to the camera.
Like, how angry would you be?
15 seconds?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (30:07):
Yeah, we were just lose your mind.
SPEAKER_02 (30:09):
Because but but but remember there was a day, right?
We're in the same general agerange.
There was a day when waiting 15seconds wasn't a big deal,
right?
Now it's unthinkable.
When you get financialsettlement of a stable coin in
seconds versus having to waitthree days for the wire to
clear, think about how fastwe're gonna consider traditional
wires or even ACH debit to bejust archaically slow.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
You just you can't stop that train.
It's it's it's it's gonna hiteveryone fast.
And then we're never not gonnabe able to imagine a world where
I have to send you money and ittakes a full day to get there.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (30:44):
That's well, you know, still to this day.
SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
Sending it to your family.
If you have family back, youknow, uh I don't know how much
information.
Okay, you'll say it.
Okay.
So Bulgaria, my family in Italy,like the notion of it could be
three days, could be four days.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (30:56):
Yeah, you can send uh it's it's crazy.
I mean, still to this day.
SPEAKER_02 (31:01):
We will ne we will never go back.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (31:03):
But that's where the younger, I mean,
policy change takes forever,obviously.
Anything that has to do withlike change makers and uh policy
the policymakers uh will takeforever.
But I think that's where alsoit's interesting that from the
data set that I had seen aroundspecifically again crypto, it is
the younger generation.
So the younger than usgeneration, who are the future.
(31:25):
They're the future that will behelping us march towards faster,
you know, everything and a withbasically coupled with AI.
That's that's what we're gonnabe seeing.
SPEAKER_02 (31:36):
So you know, I think it's but I know I I'm Gen X, I I
know some pretty impatient Gen Xpeople too.
I think it's just it's justcertain personalities, right?
My my mother, God bless her,she's a brilliant woman, but she
just, and I mean just, like inthe last month, uh switched to
online banking.
She fought it for almost 40years.
She she moved from Bank ofAmerica to a local community
bank.
Finally, even they said to her,Isabel, you you you gotta get
(31:58):
online.
And so she called me, she'slike, show me how to use this
online banking thing.
Certain You know, I I looked atthis recently.
Thirty so percent of Americansstill maintain a landline as
their primary phone.
Wow.
Right.
Exactly.
I looked it up.
Yeah.
30 percent of Americans stillhave a landline.
I I haven't had a landline in 20years.
I I I I couldn't believe it,right?
So people are they're loath togive up what they know.
(32:21):
I I get that.
But here's the here's but those30, they all have a cell phone
too, because they just can'thandle being away from that
convenience.
SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:28):
Once pe once you know 500 million people now use
stable coins, once that's over abillion five, two billion, um,
and you're you're seeing yourfriends, even people who aren't
technically astute, they noticethat their friends are just
talking about how they get paidinstantly.
It's gonna, it's gonna it'sgonna catch on very we whenever
we've had a chance to choosebetween fear and convenience as
(32:48):
a society, we dive intoconvenience.
Right.
I was petrified to get in aWaymo my first time.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (32:54):
Oh I've never done that.
I'm still petrified too.
SPEAKER_02 (32:57):
I was petrified.
I got I got peer pressured intoit like about six months ago.
How was it?
First 30 seconds was abjectfear.
They made me sit in the frontpassenger seat, too.
And I'm like, and I'm I'm I'mfairly techie.
Like so I and they were laughingat me because they were like,
Why are you being such a likeLuddite about this?
And I got in the front seat.
I remember it was like 11o'clock at night, it was dark.
The thing pulls up.
I get in the front of staring atthe wheel, it's moving by
(33:18):
itself.
I'm like, this is such a badidea.
What am I doing this for?
And then like it took a minute,less than a minute.
I was like, oh my God, this likeit's so it's so safe.
Like it's so it's it's you couldjust, you know, when you in a
car with someone, you could tellif they're a safe driver or not.
Yeah.
You just have like an intuitivefeel, right?
It's the way they merge, it'sthe way they look, you know.
Um, in 30 seconds, I was like,oh, this is this is clearly the
(33:41):
future.
It's clearly the future ofdriving.
I don't think we'll give updriving entirely because it's an
enjoyable experience to somedegree.
But clearly, once we get theroads sorted out and the
insurance and all the rulesaround it, clearly this is
superior to 80% of the driversI've been in the car with.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (33:56):
Yeah.
I know my husband would probablysay, There's no way I'm ever
gonna give up driving.
He has a collector's car.
SPEAKER_02 (34:02):
So uh I'm sure all the all the people out there,
but also except when he wants towatch a movie and he has the
three hour and he has athree-hour drive, right?
Sure.
I get I get it.
But or yes, so it's like thefirst time you sent remember the
first time you sent it.
I I remember the first dad sentan email.
It was a clunky server atWilliams College.
The emails didn't show up halfthe time.
But I remember ty I rememberjust hitting sending, like, oh
(34:23):
yeah, this is obviously betterthan sending a letter.
Like, like clearly, this isbetter.
That's how people who use cryptofeel.
SPEAKER_00 (34:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:28):
Right?
Once they transact on ahyperliquid or they buy an
equity tokenized on Coinbase, orthey uh send money using USDC,
you know, our native stablecoin,once they do that and they
realize how quick and easy andfa final it is and how simple
and how cheap it can be, 40% orso lower average remittance
fees.
The the if you think they'regoing back, if you're a
(34:51):
politician, you think that theaverage American consumer is
going back to doing it the hardway, good luck.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (34:56):
Aaron Powell Well, I'm sure we're gonna find
out very soon as uh time goes onand the newer generation takes
over.
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
Remember how much people fought against Uber?
unknown (35:05):
I think.
SPEAKER_02 (35:05):
Do you think remember remember when we had to
call a black car?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (35:08):
Yes.
I was in New York City.
I had just arrived in New YorkCity.
Yeah.
Still crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (35:13):
Do you think we're ever going back to that?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (35:15):
No, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Of course not.
It's in it's insane.
Well, and there'll be problemswith Uber every now and then and
certain industry groups willstep.
And so crypto, crypto is tofinance what Uber was to taxis.
And so we're not going back todialing for a black car.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (35:29):
Aaron Powell, as we say in Bulgarian, another
fun expression, the appetitecomes with the eating.
So once we get to once we get toseeing how good it is to be in
an Uber and be driven by Uber,we're never going to go back to
anything else.
Once we understand the benefitof crypto, then we're never we
could never go back to anythinguh archaic and old.
SPEAKER_02 (35:49):
We won't even call it crypto then.
It won't be crypto.
It'll just how we it'd be butyou have a choice, you have a
choice to send something cheap,instantly, and efficiently, or
you can wait T plus three and haand get charged a$20 wiring fee.
Like the So it won't even becrypto.
It'll just be, yeah, I'll takethe I'll take the much better,
faster, cheaper, simpler, easiersolution.
And and the fact that it'scrypto, my mother's using on
(36:11):
online banking.
She loves it now because shethinks she knows what HTTP is.
Like it it's she won't she won'twe won't the average person
won't be thinking in terms ofblockchain or crypto.
They'll just be thinking it interms of end solution is faster
and better.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (36:24):
Yeah.
And I'm sure our kids will uhwill be probably doing crypto
and and doing everything umdigitally, which they already
are, much more than we are.
SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
They used Venmo before we did, right?
Yeah.
Venmo was popularized by kidswho didn't want to split a bill,
right?
Remember when like the checkused to come?
Like and everyone would pull outeveryone would like, you know,
all right, I'll take the moneyand then oh, you're short.
There's that Venmo was just kidsrealizing uh this is crazy.
You pay for it, I'll Venmo youlater.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (36:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
Right?
That that's it'll be that thatlevel of efficiency, it's hard
to dial back on.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (36:52):
I agree.
Thank you so much for coming tothe Money Signal.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
Thank you for having me.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (36:57):
From Main Street to Wall Street.
We would love to have you backsoon.
And uh for our viewers andlisteners, check us out on the
money signal podcast.com andmake sure you follow us on
social media.
SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
Thanks, Veta.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:12):
Thank you, John.
Welcome to the Money Signal Podcast from
Main Street to Wall Street.
I am joined by John D'Agostinotoday for an amazing
conversation around him as anentrepreneur, investor, speaker,
and financial leader in thespace.
So welcome, John.
Thank you so much for coming onthe Money Signal Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:22):
Svetta, thank you for having me and
congratulations on what Ibelieve is one of the first
inaugural episodes of the MoneySignal Podcast.
It's wonderful.
You and Peter should be very,very proud.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:33):
Thank you so much.
We're very excited to have you.
I know we've been trying to getyou on the books for quite a few
weeks, and you've been verybusy.
You're a very busy man to catch,but I think that comes uh that's
for a reason.
I, when I was preparing for thisepisode and I pulled up your
profile and I got a hold ofbasically all the things that
you're doing, I was absolutelyfascinated.
(00:53):
So no wonder that we couldn'tget you on.
But we're very excited thatyou're here for um for today's
episode.
So today I would love to diveinto a few kind of like
categories, if you will, and oftopics.
Uh, starting off more with moreinformation, obviously, about
who's John, like what's yourbackground and how did you even
get to uh to do what you dotoday.
(01:14):
Uh tell us a bit more aboutobviously your um current
leadership position at Coinbase,which we'd love to hear more.
And then we could talk moreabout signals.
That's what we really arelooking to give to our audience.
Uh, signals come in differentshapes and forms.
So while the show is called themoney signal, obviously we're
not going to talk about anystocks today specifically or
(01:36):
anything related to trading.
Uh, but we would love to learnmore about signals that you read
during your entrepreneurial umjourney and during your
leadership journey becauseyou're quite senior at Coinbase.
And I'd love to learn more abouthow did you really start
connecting the dots andidentifying these opportunities
that then became almost like asignal for or like a lane for
(01:58):
you to go and uh become who youare today?
Uh one of the great leaders ofNew York City financial
institutions.
Um, so that's what I'd love totalk about.
So why don't we start off withlike who is actually John
D'Agostino and how did youreally get into the financial uh
and the investing space?
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Sure.
Uh that's fairly simple.
I kind of fell backwards intoit.
Um so did my undergrad.
So I think like you, I'm animmigrant, um, and uh grew up
with parents who were uhwonderful.
My parents didn't finishcollege, didn't go to high
school, um, and put me throughbusiness school uh with almost
no debt, which is just anamazing thing that I think back
(02:39):
then uh a working class familywas able to accomplish.
And that'll kind of tie into myum interest in uh digital assets
as a mechanism for for bridgingwealth inequality.
But you know, I was very, verylucky, even though my parents
didn't have academic uhtraining, they pushed me, they
saw some talent in me, and I wasable to, I was lucky enough I
took tests well.
So I was able to get good scoreson standardized tests, I was
(03:01):
able to get into schools likelike Harvard and MIT, and um, I
had parents who were willing to,you know, uh beg, beg, steal,
borrow, whatever it took to getme there.
And so I think like a lot ofimmigrant families who who
you're lucky enough, and I domean lucky, I think you know you
obviously had talent.
I had some talent, but thereality is we were still
extraordinarily lucky to be inthat position, to go to those
schools and and and get that legup from from parents who who
(03:25):
moved here with nothing.
Um, you know, I I was under alot of pressure to do something
with those degrees.
I was, I wanted to be an actor.
And they were like, no, no,we're not we're not paying for
college for you to be an actor.
It's not gonna happen.
Um I skipped a few gradesgrowing up, so I was very
immature when I graduatedcollege.
And so they let me go to LA tobe an actor for a year just to
get out of my system.
Yeah, it was fun.
I did a lot of people.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (03:44):
I missed that in my research.
Where was that?
SPEAKER_02 (03:46):
That was a long time ago.
I did a couple, I got a couplecommercials, I got some national
commercials, I made some money,I weighed tables, did all that,
and then realized, okay, I don'twant to do this.
Came back to New York, took theLSAT, took the G Mat, um, was
lucky enough to get into uhHarvard Business School and um
uh you know, panicked after myfirst year because I still
didn't know what I wanted to do.
(04:07):
Um, graduated, and when youdon't know what you want to do
with an MBA from a good school,you go into consulting.
So I went to go work for a BCGconsulting firm for a little
bit.
And that was great.
I got to see a bunch ofdifferent industries, everything
was was fantastic.
And then look, the way I gotinto finance was really simple.
Um I couldn't afford to go tobusiness school.
So I had won a fellowship fromthis organization called the
(04:27):
National Italian AmericanFoundation.
Can't make this stuff up.
And I was thanking them forpaying for 80% of my MBA.
And the the man of the man ofhonor that night at that event
was this guy, Vinny Vinny Viola,Vincent Viola, who was chairman
of the New York MercantileExchange.
And I got to meet him.
And he said, What do you do?
And I said, I don't know.
(04:48):
Um and he said, You work for me.
And, you know, I I was a HarvardMBA.
I was, you know, you're supposedto get this entry-level Goldman
Sachs position.
And Vinny was like, you're goingto be my basically executive
assistant.
And I don't suggest this foranyone.
I don't, I'm not saying this wasa smart move at the time, but I
(05:09):
was I was not focused andpassionate.
I did have a job, I did have ajob offer, I had a good job
offer.
I won't say the name of thefirm, but a big brand name
investment bank was making me anoffer.
And I was, all right, I gotthis.
I'm an immigrant kid whose ffamily never made more than
$30,000 a year.
I'm through Harvard MBA withalmost no debt.
I've got a offer in hand to bein the investment banking
(05:31):
training program at big namefirm, or I can go be the
executive assistant to thischarismatic, crazy,
quasi-billionaire guy.
Um and uh it was a dumb move,but I just I wasn't here's
here's what here's what here'sthe thinking, my thinking.
I I was not passionate about theiBanking career.
(05:51):
And I had this lesson I alwaystell, I just spoke to a bunch of
kids yesterday.
Um I don't believe in carpetdiem.
You have to, you know, just youcan't always go with what's fun.
That's just that's just silly,right?
You always have to have gruntwork.
I do think, though, if you don'tgo with your passion plus your
skill set, you will fail.
And the reason I know this isthere was a friend of mine in at
our at Harvard Business School.
Um, I won't say his name.
I his whatever his, he wouldn'tmind.
(06:12):
His name's Bong.
And and I I was smarter thanBong.
I knew I was.
I love him, but I was smarter.
I had more intellectualhorsepower than him.
But we took a fixed incomeprice, uh fixed income class
together, uh, second year, andhe just crushed me.
Like, and I was it was I wascouldn't understand because I
was smarter than this guy.
And at least I was back then,maybe not now.
But anyway, but I realized heliked he enjoyed it and I found
(06:33):
it excruciating.
And it just hit me.
I'm like, I I don't I I don'thave that much intellectual
horsepower that that I canovercompensate for somebody who
genuinely finds the topicinteresting.
So I'm sitting there, go, I cango to this big brand name, the
best backing firm.
I was just having panic attacksabout doing that work.
And I looked, I thought, youknow, okay, I had enough
intellectual horsepower.
I had the brand name of a goodbusiness school to get into that
(06:55):
program.
I I interview well.
And yeah, could I do it?
Pro possibly, probably.
Could I compete with people whohad all the advantages of not
more than I had?
SPEAKER_00 (07:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
And the same intellectual horsepower with
with a with a passionate driveto be that.
No, they're gonna crush me.
They're gonna crush me.
But when I thought about workingfor Vinny, I was like, that
sounds pretty cool.
It's scary, but but I I can seemyself getting excited about
that.
And so I showed up at the NyMexand said, let's do it.
And, you know, a couple yearslater, he made me head of
(07:26):
strategy for the New YorkMercantile Exchange.
And um, the rest is kind ofhistory.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (07:30):
That's crazy.
I want to say that Vinny was avery lucky man um to get you.
I used to it was luck that gotyou into Harvard, but it sounded
like it's actually a lot of workand that you not only tested
well, but that you basicallyknew how to um uh understand
what's important, which was toget into Harvard.
(07:51):
You were educated enough, youknew how to, you know, get in
and to get out without debt.
So that's actually uh one of myfavorite topics is debt, because
as an immigrant, I you we don'tunderstand the concept of debt.
And then you come to America andeveryone talks about debt and
school debt, which is actuallyhuge.
Um, so Vinny was a very smartman to get you right out of
(08:12):
Harvard.
Um, and it sounded like a greatopportunity for both of you.
So uh that's pretty fascinating.
Now, um after that career move,like what were what what did you
learn?
What was the one thing because Imean you started with obviously
a non-traditional career.
So again, you had a big offerfrom a firm, which you decided
(08:32):
to turn down and put your uhbelief into Vinny's uh project
and and Vinny's company, right?
Uh, but what what did you learn?
What was it, you know, like ifyou had to basically compare the
learnings across the differentplaces you've been, was there
like one because the firstcareer I would say is like the
most important.
The first job that you get, youbasically amass a ton of
(08:53):
knowledge and then you decidewhere where to go to next.
What was that one thing, if orseveral things that you think
you really learned?
Um, something that maybe youwouldn't have gotten anywhere
else.
SPEAKER_02 (09:04):
Oh, I know exactly what it is.
And it's a good segue intodigital assets and and modern
finance.
Um after uh so I go to HBS, I Igo work for Vinny in kind of a
not a very senior position, buta cool position.
I got to do some cool stuff.
I got to build the first MiddleEastern energy exchange.
I got to see the NIMEX gopublic.
Uh uh, Vinny bought the NewJersey Nets, I helped out on
(09:25):
that deal.
It was it was awesome.
It was so much fun.
Didn't make a lot of money, butlike I had the coolest job, like
one year out of HBS at 22 yearsold.
It was a blast.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (09:34):
Fascinating.
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
Then I go, I leave with the president of the
exchange, we go start a hedgefund.
Back then, hedge funds were likethe hot thing.
And we go start a natural gasoptions hedge fund, and a year
and a half later we blow upcatastrophically, and my life
turns upside down in a way Icouldn't possibly imagine.
And the the lesson, the I'm nothappy, everyone goes, Oh, you
should be, you know, do you didyou learn from like no, no, I'm
not happy that happened.
(09:55):
I it sucked, I wish it wouldn'thappen.
But if I'm honest with myselfabout the lesson I learned, and
this kind of leads into moneysignals in crypto, um, the
reason it hit me so hard is Idraw, I drew, um, now you
mentioned you're not in finance,so I'm gonna I'm not gonna try
to be wonky, but I drew what'scalled a straight line
interpolation um of my life.
Now, a linear interpolation justmeans you have two points.
(10:15):
You have two points on a graph,and then you draw a line to
them.
And then the mistake everybodymakes is they extend that line
going forward.
So my data points were poor kidfrom Brooklyn, get into Regis,
get into Williams, get intoHarvard, get this amazing job at
NyMex.
I had these four data pointsover the last, say, five to
seven years of my life.
And I drew them on a chart,which was my life.
(10:36):
And then you connect this linethrough them.
And then you say, okay, and thenyou just keep extending the line
and go, oh, this is my life.
I'm linear interpoling that youthe stock was five dollars ago.
It was$10 yesterday.
It's gonna keep going up by100%.
I just linear interpolate itout.
And that's not how life works.
That's not how stocks work,that's not how anything works.
But but we all make thatmistake, right?
(10:57):
Peter, I'm sure if he was here,it would be like, we all make
that it's just human, we like tosee patterns and extend patterns
out.
So I extended this pattern of mylife.
Okay.
I got I had a hard I had a hardbeginning.
It was tough growing up.
You know, we we we grew up undervery meager circumstances.
I had a dad who just killedhimself supporting me, worked
three jobs, never saw him,tremendous amount of respect.
(11:20):
And then suddenly now, becauseof my parents and and how
wonderful they were, I have thisamazing opportunity.
Now it's just this.
And then the the company Iworked for collapsed.
And now I have this new datapoint, which is down here.
So now what do we do?
Because we're we're we're we'resilly humans.
I go from being overlyoptimistic that my life is gonna
be this linear interpolated outsuccess story to now I reverse
(11:44):
that linear interpolation andnow my life's gonna be horrible.
So I don't know if we can curseon your podcast.
I won't curse on your podcast.
It's gonna go straight line downto zero.
Equally insane, equally damagingto overly optimistic.
Um, that was the best lesson Ilearned is to not linear
interpolate out signals aboutlife, about happiness, about
(12:07):
money, about crypto, aboutstocks, about bonds.
That's not how life works.
It's not a straight line toanywhere ever.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (12:16):
And it in the good lessons that come along the
way, right?
It's not a straight line.
It's actually, it looks likeit's easy getting from one point
to the other, at least in youknow, people, other people's
eyes.
But then once you live throughit and you learn the lessons
along the way, you actuallyrealize that it's more like a
curved line and goes downhilland uphill like uh a mountain,
hills and mountains.
(12:36):
Fascinating, fascinating story.
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
Svetl, it's so important.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (12:39):
So failures teach us other lessons and new
lessons, right?
There's successes, it's great tobe successful and it's great to
be on on top.
The Bulgarian expression is tobe on the cherry tree on top of
the cherry tree, meaning you'reyou're at the top of at the
height of your success, butobviously failure teaches us
other uh lessons.
What was one of those lessons umwhen it came to the failure of
(13:01):
your company?
What is it?
What would you have donedifferently?
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
Oh, there's nothing I could have done.
I was a junior in the company.
There's nothing I could havedone.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (13:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:08):
I think what I could have done is handled it better.
And again, that goes back to mymy lesson of not not thinking
that that linear interpolation,not looking at that price chart
and saying, oh, Bitcoin was upuh X amount over three years is
going to continue infinitely.
And if we have a mean uh meanreversion or a price correction,
it's no longer a good assetclass.
It's no longer a good inflationhitch.
Um the mistake we may, themistakes we make is we assume
(13:31):
patterns will continue.
We also mismatch duration.
Again, that's using anotherwonky finance term.
Um and we've seen this recentlyin the um all the news about
these private credit funds uhsuffering from redemptions.
Uh that's a problem of mismatchduration.
It means you're looking, you youneed something short-term, but
you lock it up long term.
Or you want the benefits ofbeing locked up long-term, but
(13:54):
you put it into a short-termvehicle.
Right.
That if we if we think about,like I looked at a short period
of my life and assumed that wasemblematic of the entire
entirety of my life.
Um if we look at something likeBitcoin and we say, okay, um, we
want this to be an inflationhedge.
Well, inflation occurs bymonetary debasing over decades.
(14:15):
But yet we look at short-termprice movements and say, over
this one year period, Bitcoinbehaved this way, it's not a
good inflation edge anymore.
That's a mismatch duration.
That's a real problem.
No one that I know wouldrecommend uh investing in an
asset like Bitcoin to managevery, very short-term cash flow.
That's what stable coins arefor.
If you're investing in somethinglike Bitcoin for long-term
hedging against monetarydebasement or inflation, you
(14:38):
have to match it to the processof monetary base debasement or
inflation, which is monetarypolicy over decades.
So I learned to answer yourquestion, the lesson I learned
from my catastrophic abysmalfailure, three lessons.
One is call it a catastrophicabysmal failure, because that's
what it was.
Don't gloss over it.
Don't pretend, yeah, I couldn'thave changed it, but I was a
part of it.
(14:58):
I obviously contributed to it.
So the radical honesty ofacknowledging when you're wrong.
Secondly, is don't linearinterpolate out success or
failure.
And thirdly, is get yourduration matching right.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:10):
Well, I will remember all three of them as an
entrepreneur.
SPEAKER_02 (15:15):
We talked about being parents, right?
Okay.
Would you ever take your child'sbehavior in one day and
extrapolate it out and sayingthat's who she is?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:23):
No, definitely not.
Of course not.
SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
They have good, right?
They're never as good as theirbest day.
They're never as bad as theirworst day.
You as a parent, you know yourchild, right?
You know your child because youhave, I don't want to give
information about your children,but you have the duration of
your time with them.
They have birth to now.
That's how you know who theyare, not one day's performance.
That's crazy.
So why would we j why would wejudge a stock or a bond or a
(15:46):
crypto asset by uh uh theincorrect duration of
performance?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:50):
Very interesting.
Actually, in one of the umepisodes that we did with Peter,
we talked about inflation and wetalked about Bitcoin and crypto
in general.
And I don't have the statisticsand I don't remember them
because again, I have a brainfog from parenting.
Uh, but it was something alongthe lines of um on average,
consumers talk about inflationin the US.
(16:11):
I want to say 3.2 millionconversations on a rolling
30-day basis.
So think about this is US only,US consumers in English language
only.
And out of those conversations Ihad analyzed, um, the most
interesting finding was thatalmost half of the consumers
during the time frame ofanalysis had mentioned that they
(16:35):
see crypto and gold.
Those are the two things thatthey see as the safest place to
invest during if inflationtimes.
So it's interesting that youmentioned inflation to me.
Um, and also it ties well intosome of my next questions about
crypto.
Sure.
Moving into crypto.
Um, but yeah, those are this wasbasically just one statistic.
(16:56):
And again, I don't have anumber, but that was one of the
episodes that Peter and I haddone.
SPEAKER_02 (17:01):
It's intuitively it intuitively follows with a
general understanding andawareness that interest rates
are not matching inflation.
And you don't have to be a wonkyperson to know that the value of
your dollar is decreasingrelative to your ability to earn
more dollars through therisk-free rate.
Everyone, it doesn't matter whatlevel of education you have, it
(17:21):
doesn't matter how financiallyastute you are.
We feel it every day.
We feel it in our inability tobuy a starter home.
We feel it in our sticker shockwhen we get to the counter, the
grocery counter.
We we just know it intuitively.
People are smart.
They intuitively know aboutmoney in terms of value of our
time versus what we can purchasefor that time.
(17:42):
Right.
That's our most valuablecommodity is time.
We can only work until we die,right?
So we just know in even if wedon't understand interest rates
and don't understand uhamortization and all this stuff,
we just know intuitively I'mworking harder and I'm getting
less.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
And that then you start querying, and we have
these amazing vehicles now toquery things.
And then the AIs are pushing,oh, you're you're you're talking
about inf monetary debasement.
So it's makes no doubt in mymind that more people are, even
if they don't know what the termmeans, they're becoming more
aware that this is a problem.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (18:13):
Yeah.
And I loved also from theconsumer standpoint, because
again, if you put in perspectivewho's on social media and talks,
like the statistic that Imentioned, over three million
discussions from U.S.
consumers on a rolling like 30%.
SPEAKER_02 (18:24):
And I bet that's up a lot from two years ago.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (18:26):
Oh, uh hundreds of percent um
difference.
But the people who go on socialmedia and talk are the younger
generation.
So the ones that you justmentioned, the ones who
basically don't can't have astarter home, the ones who go to
the store, I mean, who go to thecoffee shop.
I went today in New York Citycoffee with oat milk, uh, 735.
Like is that's crazy.
Uh, but that's where I wasreally surprised that this same
(18:49):
generation that goes on socialmedia and talks about all of
these topics and inflation, theyfirmly believe that their safest
place to put their money iscrypto, which is very
interesting to me.
And then that comes with my nextquestion, which is when did
crypto, when did financialinstitutions and consumers like
really start taking crypto moreseriously?
(19:10):
Was there a period?
I mean, you've been in this umworld of finance crypto um
longer than I have.
I mean, I don't again, I've I'mjust entering it now, and I
can't really tell, but it feelslike my generation, millennials
and the younger ones, the GenZs, are really into it.
And they believe that's thesafest investment for them.
SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
So I would say uh I I view, I mean, crypto Bitcoin's
been around for about uh 14years.
Um I think it's been aninstitutionally investable asset
class for the last seven-ishyears, five to seven years.
And there's no like one eventthat happened.
You can argue the Genius Act wasa seminal event, but but that's
from a US perspective.
Globally, what we've just seenis a gradually increasing,
(19:55):
stronger infrastructure.
You know, Coinbase going publicnine years ago or so, I forget.
Um, we have uh not just Coinbasebut other high-quality
institutions.
We have the gradual emergen.
I mean, there have been someseminal events.
I'd say the launch of the ETFswas a big one, Genius Act was a
big one, uh MiFID in the EU wasa big one.
You know, tra tracing back thelast seven years, there's been
(20:15):
five to seven kind of seminalevents that say, okay, we're
we're now that steps up theinstitutional credibility.
And what's happening in each ofthose events, and then there's
also been price retrenchments,and then there's been these, you
know, FTX debacle and whatnot.
And each of those has made theindustry stronger because with
each of those events, you'reseeing fewer and fewer large
(20:36):
players failing.
SPEAKER_00 (20:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:38):
And so gradually over time, people realize, okay,
it's getting more it's the UIsare getting easier.
Um, you know, obviously not justCoinbase, but other custody
solutions are getting easier.
We hear news that the USgovernment uses, you know, is
using Coinbase for C's Bitcoin.
Um, you know, se uh severalcentral banks, the Czech
Republic and a few others havestarted buying it.
So there's no one kind of event,it's just a gradual comfort.
(21:01):
And then the second part of thatis um, you know, there's a more
data and a growing realizationthat our crypto, Bitcoin, and a
few others, including includedin a portfolio, helps to beat on
a risk adjuster basis inflation.
And when you talk aboutsomething being safe, what does
being safe mean?
So safe can mean I don't want tolose my money.
(21:23):
That's one way of being safe.
Fine, I don't want to lose anyprinciple of my money.
Then you don't invest inobviously any risk asset or
stocks, anything like that.
Um but but big but if you knowfor a fact that sticking your
money in a checking account andpaying 0.01% interest, if you
know for a fact that inflationis going to exist at two, two
(21:44):
and a half percent, that'sthat's the stated target.
So I I would I would argue tosomebody if if you know for
certainty, one hundred percentcertainty, uh that inflation
will decay and erode yourability to afford the lifestyle
you want and need at a futuredate.
Least safe thing you can do isto be safe and stick it in a
checking account.
Because there is a if I told youif you're going to die in 10
(22:09):
years with 100% certainty if youdo nothing versus if you do this
thing, you have a better thanaverage chance, a better chance
than doing nothing at surviving.
Um I I I can't speak foreveryone, but but assuming I
want to live past 10 years, I'mgonna take that risk.
(22:29):
I'm going to take that chance.
I'm going to have that surgery,I'm going to uh try this
experimental uh um uh try thisthis cocktail, whatever it is.
We we know with certainty thatinflation will erode into our
our purchasing power.
And so I'd argue the the leastsafe thing you can do is
nothing.
And so when you once you come tothat realization, you say, okay,
what do I need to do?
(22:50):
And then you start looking athow do I inflation hedge?
And I was on the board of Tudorwhen they did this, Tudor Asset
Management, one of the topcommodity hedge funds.
They looked at this about fiveyears ago.
And they said, if we do nothing,inflation is going to just erode
into our cash.
So they did a sweep and they didan analysis.
They said, okay, there's no oneperfect inflation hedge.
Gold is good sometimes, not goodother times.
(23:10):
And they set away a basket ofcommodities that is inclusive of
gold, uh, prime real estate, um,uh certain types of bonds, and
Bitcoin performs better as along-term inflation hedge.
So that's that's not everyonehas the analytical capabilities
of Tudor, but they're in they'rethey're searching for a
(23:30):
solution.
And when you do the work,Bitcoin becomes part of that
solution.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (23:35):
Okay.
This is incredibly interestingto me as someone, and thank you
so much for the explanation aswell.
Again, I as someone who doesn'tcome from finance um or
understands much about you knowthe different financial areas,
this is this was very useful.
Now I actually have, and some ofmy questions could be a little
silly, so please excuse me ifthat's a silly question.
(23:55):
But I wonder from I'm I'm amarketer.
I come from marketing andbranding.
Basically, my whole backgroundhas been like media marketing
and media and media analytics.
And I just was thinking in termsof like how does when when
crypto started, so you said 14years ago, obviously Bitcoin
kind of enters uh the world andis introduced to the world and
(24:17):
people.
I think that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
It's it's it's directionally wrapped.
But if I get it wrong, I'll beembarrassed.
But I think 14, I think 14years.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (24:22):
Yeah.
But I can imagine the the WallStreet, especially the older
generation of thinking traders,investors, probably didn't take
it seriously, right?
They didn't take cryptoseriously.
Some still don't.
Right.
And some still, some stilldon't.
I mean, I know uh Peter always,because I always ask him, like,
tell me more, teach me more,tell me more about crypto.
And he always says, Oh, I'm notthe best person to teach you
(24:45):
that.
I think because obviously hetrades on the floor, so he's you
know, very close to stocks umversus crypto.
But I always wonder, like, howand when did um, you know, was
there any type of likemisconceptions or currently are
there any type of misconceptionsthat you see in the field?
Could be from institutions andhow they understand crypto.
(25:06):
And how do you, I mean,obviously you don't go and like
encourage people to invest inanything.
Um, but uh, do you see what whatare those misconceptions that
you think most maybe could beolder, uh, the older generation
are still institutions that seeit?
Because again, and we've seenwith this administration there
have been updates about, youknow, uh crypto and how crypto
is seen.
(25:26):
But yeah, what what would thosebe?
SPEAKER_02 (25:28):
I think the biggest individual misconceptions is
that it's unregulated anduntraceable.
In fact, crypto is is is highlyregulated.
Um, and the the mechanisms bywhich you transact in crypto,
which are called blockchains,are incredibly transparent.
They're they're literallydesigned to be publicly visible.
I think those are the twobiggest misconceptions is it's
regulated differently, it's asit should be, because it's a
(25:49):
different creature thantraditional securities.
Um, but this notion that like uhcapital is invisible within
crypto could not be further fromthe truth.
It's actually the mosttransparent form of value
transfer.
I think that's the m- that's thecommon perception that I have to
correct with individuals.
Um again, putting aside whetheryou want to invest in the
assets, the tokens, Bitcoin,Ethereum, others, that that's do
(26:10):
your own research, figure out ifthat's right for you.
But the infrastructure layerthat is blockchain, that where
all these things move on, um,it's it's it's transparent, it's
open, it's secure.
And uh the companies likeCoinbase that are helping people
buy and sell and hold theseassets are regulated five ways
to Sunday.
That's the biggestmisconception.
On the institutional side, Iwould say it's really
(26:31):
bifurcating now because prettymuch every GCIB bank is now have
now has a crypto team, is nowworking very, very strongly,
very, very quickly to integrateum crypto offerings into.
We have a service called cryptoas a service.
We're working with pretty muchever hundreds and hundreds of
clients, banks, insurance, foranyone that touches consumer
retail is coming to us andsaying, how do we offer this
(26:53):
safely to our uh to ourcustomers?
Um but then there's this divide,and then there's a bunch of
other companies that don'tunderstand it or think it's not
in their in their wheelhouse.
Um you're you're in marketing,you're in branding, so you
understand.
Um, the growth rate for stablecoin usage is astronomical.
It is on par with the earlygrowth rate of the personal
(27:14):
computer and the smartphone, um,in the sense of it being three
to five years old in in modernform, it's a penetrated US
average consumer at a rateequivalent to the personal
computer, like beating thepersonal computer a little bit,
a little bit lagging thesmartphone, but right in between
the two.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (27:31):
That's the part nobody gets.
Every major exchange now hasannounced publicly that they are
going to begin the process ofissuing tokenized securities,
either in parallel or afterhours.
I've been through this before.
When I joined the New YorkMercantile Exchange, just like
asked Peter, it was a bunch ofback then mostly men, um,
(27:52):
screaming and yelling andtrading stocks, equities, and
commodities.
That's how it was.
And by the way, this isn't 1962,this is 2008.
And they told people like Peterand me, it'll never change.
Because open outcry, thespecialist system, open outcry
on the floor of the New York,that's the way it's always.
I remember I remember this oneold trader, great guy.
(28:14):
And he's not, they're not crazy.
I can see why their point ofview at that time it worked
really well.
But he grabbed me one day and hewent, you know, because I was
working on some technology tolike digitize the floor.
And he goes, you know, Johnny,there's a reason the design of
the spoon hasn't changed sincethe day of the caveman.
It works.
And I'm like, yeah, that'sthat's a great point.
(28:35):
Like that's right.
Not everything evolves thatquickly.
But but you know, Peter knows,like, you know, they were
specialists screamed up and downon the shape.
So so I just see tokenizationand blockchain infrastructure as
that next evolution.
We went from open outcry to DTCCand the systems that NICE uses
and digit the electronic systemsthat we built.
Ours was called span and calledClearport.
(28:57):
Um, and that was a greatevolution 20 years ago, 30 years
ago.
And now we're ready for the nextevolution.
How many of us use the sametechnology we used 30 years ago
in our daily lives?
Right.
Give me a single example of ususing the same tech we used 25,
30 years ago.
It's it's it's ludicrous, right?
We use it for nostalgicpurposes.
To have our financialinfrastructure run off of
(29:18):
30-year-old tech is just assilly as using a Commodore 64 to
play Call of Duty.
Like it's it's just, it's just,it's it's crazy.
So stable coin usage, we've gonefrom 300 million users of stable
coins to 500 million users.
70% of people polled outside theUS said they prefer to get paid
in stable coins.
You can settle instantaneously.
(29:40):
Think about think about the lasttime you tried to download
something on a plane orsomewhere, like stream a movie,
and it took more than thinkabout the last time it took more
than like 15 seconds for a webpage to load.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (29:55):
I was down immediately.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
Think of how you you you you just got flushed.
Like you got read there.
How angry would you be?
I'm talking to the camera.
Like, how angry would you be?
15 seconds?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (30:07):
Yeah, we were just lose your mind.
SPEAKER_02 (30:09):
Because but but but remember there was a day, right?
We're in the same general agerange.
There was a day when waiting 15seconds wasn't a big deal,
right?
Now it's unthinkable.
When you get financialsettlement of a stable coin in
seconds versus having to waitthree days for the wire to
clear, think about how fastwe're gonna consider traditional
wires or even ACH debit to bejust archaically slow.
SPEAKER_00 (30:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (30:34):
You just you can't stop that train.
It's it's it's it's gonna hiteveryone fast.
And then we're never not gonnabe able to imagine a world where
I have to send you money and ittakes a full day to get there.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (30:44):
That's well, you know, still to this day.
SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
Sending it to your family.
If you have family back, youknow, uh I don't know how much
information.
Okay, you'll say it.
Okay.
So Bulgaria, my family in Italy,like the notion of it could be
three days, could be four days.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (30:56):
Yeah, you can send uh it's it's crazy.
I mean, still to this day.
SPEAKER_02 (31:01):
We will ne we will never go back.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (31:03):
But that's where the younger, I mean,
policy change takes forever,obviously.
Anything that has to do withlike change makers and uh policy
the policymakers uh will takeforever.
But I think that's where alsoit's interesting that from the
data set that I had seen aroundspecifically again crypto, it is
the younger generation.
So the younger than usgeneration, who are the future.
(31:25):
They're the future that will behelping us march towards faster,
you know, everything and a withbasically coupled with AI.
That's that's what we're gonnabe seeing.
SPEAKER_02 (31:36):
So you know, I think it's but I know I I'm Gen X, I I
know some pretty impatient Gen Xpeople too.
I think it's just it's justcertain personalities, right?
My my mother, God bless her,she's a brilliant woman, but she
just, and I mean just, like inthe last month, uh switched to
online banking.
She fought it for almost 40years.
She she moved from Bank ofAmerica to a local community
bank.
Finally, even they said to her,Isabel, you you you gotta get
(31:58):
online.
And so she called me, she'slike, show me how to use this
online banking thing.
Certain You know, I I looked atthis recently.
Thirty so percent of Americansstill maintain a landline as
their primary phone.
Wow.
Right.
Exactly.
I looked it up.
Yeah.
30 percent of Americans stillhave a landline.
I I haven't had a landline in 20years.
I I I I couldn't believe it,right?
So people are they're loath togive up what they know.
(32:21):
I I get that.
But here's the here's but those30, they all have a cell phone
too, because they just can'thandle being away from that
convenience.
SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:28):
Once pe once you know 500 million people now use
stable coins, once that's over abillion five, two billion, um,
and you're you're seeing yourfriends, even people who aren't
technically astute, they noticethat their friends are just
talking about how they get paidinstantly.
It's gonna, it's gonna it'sgonna catch on very we whenever
we've had a chance to choosebetween fear and convenience as
(32:48):
a society, we dive intoconvenience.
Right.
I was petrified to get in aWaymo my first time.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (32:54):
Oh I've never done that.
I'm still petrified too.
SPEAKER_02 (32:57):
I was petrified.
I got I got peer pressured intoit like about six months ago.
How was it?
First 30 seconds was abjectfear.
They made me sit in the frontpassenger seat, too.
And I'm like, and I'm I'm I'mfairly techie.
Like so I and they were laughingat me because they were like,
Why are you being such a likeLuddite about this?
And I got in the front seat.
I remember it was like 11o'clock at night, it was dark.
The thing pulls up.
I get in the front of staring atthe wheel, it's moving by
(33:18):
itself.
I'm like, this is such a badidea.
What am I doing this for?
And then like it took a minute,less than a minute.
I was like, oh my God, this likeit's so it's so safe.
Like it's so it's it's you couldjust, you know, when you in a
car with someone, you could tellif they're a safe driver or not.
Yeah.
You just have like an intuitivefeel, right?
It's the way they merge, it'sthe way they look, you know.
Um, in 30 seconds, I was like,oh, this is this is clearly the
(33:41):
future.
It's clearly the future ofdriving.
I don't think we'll give updriving entirely because it's an
enjoyable experience to somedegree.
But clearly, once we get theroads sorted out and the
insurance and all the rulesaround it, clearly this is
superior to 80% of the driversI've been in the car with.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (33:56):
Yeah.
I know my husband would probablysay, There's no way I'm ever
gonna give up driving.
He has a collector's car.
SPEAKER_02 (34:02):
So uh I'm sure all the all the people out there,
but also except when he wants towatch a movie and he has the
three hour and he has athree-hour drive, right?
Sure.
I get I get it.
But or yes, so it's like thefirst time you sent remember the
first time you sent it.
I I remember the first dad sentan email.
It was a clunky server atWilliams College.
The emails didn't show up halfthe time.
But I remember ty I rememberjust hitting sending, like, oh
(34:23):
yeah, this is obviously betterthan sending a letter.
Like, like clearly, this isbetter.
That's how people who use cryptofeel.
SPEAKER_00 (34:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:28):
Right?
Once they transact on ahyperliquid or they buy an
equity tokenized on Coinbase, orthey uh send money using USDC,
you know, our native stablecoin,once they do that and they
realize how quick and easy andfa final it is and how simple
and how cheap it can be, 40% orso lower average remittance
fees.
The the if you think they'regoing back, if you're a
(34:51):
politician, you think that theaverage American consumer is
going back to doing it the hardway, good luck.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (34:56):
Aaron Powell Well, I'm sure we're gonna find
out very soon as uh time goes onand the newer generation takes
over.
SPEAKER_02 (35:02):
Remember how much people fought against Uber?
unknown (35:05):
I think.
SPEAKER_02 (35:05):
Do you think remember remember when we had to
call a black car?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (35:08):
Yes.
I was in New York City.
I had just arrived in New YorkCity.
Yeah.
Still crazy.
SPEAKER_02 (35:13):
Do you think we're ever going back to that?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (35:15):
No, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Of course not.
It's in it's insane.
Well, and there'll be problemswith Uber every now and then and
certain industry groups willstep.
And so crypto, crypto is tofinance what Uber was to taxis.
And so we're not going back todialing for a black car.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (35:29):
Aaron Powell, as we say in Bulgarian, another
fun expression, the appetitecomes with the eating.
So once we get to once we get toseeing how good it is to be in
an Uber and be driven by Uber,we're never going to go back to
anything else.
Once we understand the benefitof crypto, then we're never we
could never go back to anythinguh archaic and old.
SPEAKER_02 (35:49):
We won't even call it crypto then.
It won't be crypto.
It'll just how we it'd be butyou have a choice, you have a
choice to send something cheap,instantly, and efficiently, or
you can wait T plus three and haand get charged a$20 wiring fee.
Like the So it won't even becrypto.
It'll just be, yeah, I'll takethe I'll take the much better,
faster, cheaper, simpler, easiersolution.
And and the fact that it'scrypto, my mother's using on
(36:11):
online banking.
She loves it now because shethinks she knows what HTTP is.
Like it it's she won't she won'twe won't the average person
won't be thinking in terms ofblockchain or crypto.
They'll just be thinking it interms of end solution is faster
and better.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (36:24):
Yeah.
And I'm sure our kids will uhwill be probably doing crypto
and and doing everything umdigitally, which they already
are, much more than we are.
SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
They used Venmo before we did, right?
Yeah.
Venmo was popularized by kidswho didn't want to split a bill,
right?
Remember when like the checkused to come?
Like and everyone would pull outeveryone would like, you know,
all right, I'll take the moneyand then oh, you're short.
There's that Venmo was just kidsrealizing uh this is crazy.
You pay for it, I'll Venmo youlater.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (36:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:48):
Right?
That that's it'll be that thatlevel of efficiency, it's hard
to dial back on.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (36:52):
I agree.
Thank you so much for coming tothe Money Signal.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
Thank you for having me.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (36:57):
From Main Street to Wall Street.
We would love to have you backsoon.
And uh for our viewers andlisteners, check us out on the
money signal podcast.com andmake sure you follow us on
social media.
SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
Thanks, Veta.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:12):
Thank you, John.
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