Media and entertainment veteran Seth Schachner joins the Money Signal podcast for a conversation on the business shaking up Hollywood and the music industry.
Seth breaks down the Warner Bros. merger and whether it will actually happen, the massive debt behind it, and why losing a legacy studio matters. He also explains why Netflix walked away and what the deal means for the future of entertainment.
In the second half, the conversation turns to music. Drawing on 11 years leading digital at Sony Music, Seth shares his take on how AI is really changing the music industry, the way TikTok and social media algorithms now break new artists, and how talent gets paid in the streaming era.
A must-watch for anyone interested in media, music, and where the entertainment business is headed.
🎙 Hosts:
Tsvetta Kaleynska — Consumer Data & Social Listening Expert
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Episode Transcript
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Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:00):
Welcome to the Money Signal podcast set.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Great to be here.
It's so nice.
What a pleasure.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:04):
So nice to see you finally in person.
Yeah.
So we've been uh seeing eachother on TV quite a bit.
Yeah.
And the first time I actuallysaw you was on one of the big TV
networks, and you were talkingabout one of those big mergers
in the entertainment industry.
And I thought that's sointeresting.
Very interesting insights thatyou brought on.
(00:25):
So I'm very glad that weconnected.
Thank you.
And that I have you as a gueston this podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
It's always cooler and better to actually meet and
connect in real life.
Although I think, you know, wemet, I guess, virtually through
all this electronic posting andstuff like that.
And you know, the algorithmsworked.
It was really great.
So I'm glad to be here.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:50):
And then the other topic that uh we talked
about was actually AI and themusic industry.
Uh-huh.
Sure.
So before we actually jump intoour conversation, I would love
for you, in your own words, tointroduce yourself to our
audience.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Sure.
I'm Seth Schachner.
I am a uh you know prettyexperienced media and
entertainment and technologyexecutive.
I've worked um, I think for manydifferent American entertainment
companies.
I think every one of them exceptfor Disney, if I charge it all
up, um, mostly in the area ofdigital business, you know, so
helping digital businesses growwith partnerships, content
partnerships, audience buildingpartnerships.
(01:26):
And I've had experience both,you know, in our country in the
U.S.
and uh a lot of internationalexperience.
I spent a bunch of yearsactually in Latin America with
Sony Music and um helping buildtheir business there.
But I think I'm I'm known um foran 11-year run with Sony Music,
leading digital um probablyduring the worst decade you
(01:47):
could choose to do that,basically, for a couple of label
groups, one called Jive Recordshere in New York and uh and in
Latin America.
But I've worked really broadly.
I was at a place called AOL, Ithink it was their very first
music executive, and and a lotof other places like Microsoft
and Liberty.
And I'm um I'm principally anadvisor and investor these days.
I run something called StratAmericas.
And you know, I help media andtech companies with partnership.
(02:09):
It's a classic uh, you know,consulting model, and have been
based in LA for the last sevenor eight years.
And um, I don't know, maybebecause it's it's Tinsel Town, I
get a lot of chances to go onthe media and talk.
So I've been doing a lot oftelevision and radio and just
recently launched a podcast.
So in a nutshell, that's me.
Tsvetta Kaleyns (02:28):
Congratulations on the launch of the podcast.
I've actually seen you on someof these big televisions, from
CNN to Fox to Schwab.
Yeah, yeah.
Almost every time that I turn onthe TV, especially these weeks
uh with the uh big announcementsaround these mergers for some of
the companies.
Yeah.
So on this podcast, I love tobring in consumer data or
(02:49):
interesting statistics from theworld around us, and obviously
the topic of uh interest orchoice.
So why don't we start off andtalk about something very
interesting, which is uhcurrently in the next few weeks,
so April 23rd is the shareholdervote basically for Warner
Brothers.
(03:10):
That's actually a really bigtopic, and that's right up your
alley.
We're hearing obviously if it'sgonna happen, we're we're
hearing some counter thoughts umsaying that there may it may
actually not happen.
Yeah for someone who's not inthis industry like me, I read
(03:31):
the news and I'm gettingconfused.
What's your take on is thisgoing to happen?
And why is it such, I mean, abig deal?
Obviously, you understand thatthis merger, like every merger,
is important, but why is thisone?
It just feels very different.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yeah.
Well, um You know, the theshareholder vote, it's
interesting to hear you talkabout that because I think
sometimes the the press and thepublic debate doesn't focus on
that.
So it is probably likely tohappen from a shareholder voting
perspective.
Yes.
Um there's a ton of prettyserious and substantive, you
(04:07):
know, regulatory considerationsaround it.
Some not so political, somepolitical.
And there's a ton of extremelyserious uh financial and and
most importantly, debtconsiderations around that
thing.
If it gets put, it's gonna be$80billion in debt or$79 billion,
which is crazy.
Um so so it's not clear, youknow, if if enough, I think,
(04:31):
interest start listening tothose points, it might not
happen, actually.
Um why is it important?
Um I think it's a great part, agreat you know, second part of
the question.
Um, you know, Hollywood's beenshaken up by so many things, by
AI, by labor strife, bystreaming services, um, by its
(04:53):
business model being disruptedmassively, including things like
theaters.
And so our studio system, I'mbased in LA, so I can I can use
that collective term, needs tobe reshaped and um restructured
so that you know futuregenerations appreciate it and
want to, whether it's go totheaters or watch the content or
(05:14):
consume it in some way.
And there's a big question now,just given how important and big
Netflix is and all of itsbrethren and competitors, how
you do that.
And I think what is reallycritical here is whether or not
the market or the regulatorsthink that it's okay to lose a
(05:34):
massive legacy studio in theprocess of allowing some type of
reinvention.
We're gonna lose a studio.
A lot of people, creativecommunity, staff, pictures, the
whole bit.
No matter what um, you know,David Ellison says, all the
yucky stuff, because this iswhat do they call it, a Noah's
Ark problem.
You get two things paramount,two staffs, everything from two
(05:56):
travel departments to twoproduction departments to big
enterprises like HBO, which, youknow, I don't know if anyone
would want to mess around withtheir programming, they're so
good.
CNN being combined with uh CBS,sports, there's, you know, so
it's it's a big thing that has alot of potentially, you know,
big disruptions if the two cometogether, and a lot of people
(06:17):
are going to lose their jobs.
And um it's important.
I think people are very scaredand concerned about the
bloodletting and the job lossesthat would happen if those two
combine.
The concerns were actually lesswith the other one, Netflix,
that dropped out over you know,the pricing of it, because
they're different enterprisesand a lot of us, me included,
(06:39):
were finally, you know,scratching our head and going,
you know, maybe the Netflixthing was a better idea because
it was a different beast and itwould be something that would
transform a film studio.
So it's it's a tough thing.
It's gonna go on for a while,maybe a year, maybe a year and a
half before we know.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (06:53):
And do we have do you have any fear of
basically monopoly on the globalmarket?
SPEAKER_01 (06:58):
Um not monopoly per se.
I think there's um this is amoney podcast.
You have sophisticated listenershere, right?
People with MBAs and wallstreeters, people much smarter
than me for sure.
So there's a concept calledmonopsony, I think, which is
where you reduce the pool ofbuyers for creative content.
So if you're a writer, anactress, director, a producer,
(07:22):
and you're pitching yourproject, you know, you want to
take it down the block and havelots of stores to pitch it to.
You're gonna lose one here.
You know, what whatever theysay, you're gonna lose one, in
my view.
So there'll be one less buyer.
And it's a pretty big deal,particularly if you're looking
at um, you know, Americaninterests.
You know, I don't know if that'sthe fairest way to look at it,
(07:44):
but it is historically one ofour two most or three most
competitive industries, right?
It's up there with aerospace.
Um so so I think it's a realconsideration, basically, um, a
serious one if if if we're gonnalose Warner Brothers.
There's a ton of other stuff.
The debt, if you want me to gointo all that stuff, I mean it
it's there's a lot ofbusiness-specific ramifications
(08:07):
if those two things get combinedthat I don't think are terribly
positive personally.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (08:11):
And do you think that any of this, and
again, this merger, which I amlook looking forward to hearing
basically what happens with it?
Do you think that it hasanything to do with the recent
changes in the industry inregards to how media is consumed
primarily?
Because you know that I'm asocial media person.
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
Yeah, great at it, yeah.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (08:31):
Do you think it has anything to do with that?
Um and who's buying it orpotentially buying it?
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Is it a response to the fact that YouTube is bigger
and kids are on TikTok and notreally, in my view.
I mean, I think I think it's asubsidiary.
I think I think, yeah, they are.
I think if you're uh DavidZaslov and his management team,
they've got this mix of assets,some of which are really old
school linear televisionnetworks, right?
Some of which are killer kickbutt creative assets like HBO or
(08:59):
things that get hot like WarnerBrothers, you know, they'll get
a Barbie or Sinners.
Um, and they're looking asguardians of those shares with
their shareholders, how do youmaximize that?
And so they were gonna sell offthe TV networks just like NBC
Universal's done, or spin themoff.
And they'd probably figure outanother strategy for Warner
Brothers, which is where theNetflix thing came from.
(09:19):
And so that's happening in partbecause of what you're
describing.
Yeah.
But I don't I don't view umeither of the two principles as
being social media mavens orexperts.
I'm not criticizing them.
They're just from different kindof generations, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
But it's a good it's a good question.
I think um it would be hard withany of the parties, even with
Netflix, to say this is um, youknow, a really this is being
driven by social media.
It's a it's a fascinating pointthat no one's ever brought up to
be in the debate.
But that's one of the underlyingthemes for sure.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (09:50):
Yeah.
One of the things I've noticed,obviously, through conversations
with established leaders invarious spaces and industries,
is actually that media is nowconsumed in a very different
manner than it used to be.
If you think about thetraditional broadcast TV and
even your non-traditional, yourlocal linear and others, people
(10:12):
are mostly absorbing it andconsuming it via their cell
phones and primarily on socialmedia.
So the way that news travelsthese days, your traditional
news is shifted or has alreadyshifted towards social media.
This is why obviously we havethese big uh companies that are
that have come into the spaceand taken out all of our
(10:33):
attention and the viewers'attention.
But I've um I was very curiousto basically ask you the
question around, yeah,consumption and if you think
that this whole merger is evenanything close to the I think so
this it's an interesting first,it's a fascinating question.
SPEAKER_01 (10:47):
Yes, I can let me talk to the the social media and
the phone thing in a second.
I think, you know, they'rethey're looking at how do you
make things stronger for thefuture.
And so, I mean, you know, cclearly it's let's combine
forces.
I've seen this, you know, I camefrom the music industry, so I
went through about a half decadeof, you know, where where the
(11:08):
leading recorded music giantssaid, let's consolidate to make
to make our case stronger.
And so I think I think thatprobably is part of the more of
the thinking than it is let's bea social media giant.
I mean, I think, you know, if ifyou're looking at Paramount
Buying Warners, you're lookingat the number of releases you're
gonna fund, you know, what doesyour production slate look like?
Is it bigger or smaller thanbefore?
(11:30):
Do you use the typical releasingmodels goingers first, which
they've pledged to do?
Um and so that to me, I think iswhat they're thinking about.
You know, you need to be big tocompete with Netflix and some of
these digital-only entities morethan anything else.
I mean, um, there are thingswithin, this is probably
(11:51):
getting, you know, maybe anarrower audience for your
podcast or inside baseball, butthere are assets, for example,
within some of these things thatare really interesting assets to
me that if you were looking athow you recreate, I would look
to social media.
I mean, I I grew up when this, Idon't know, never asked people
how old they are, but if youremember something called MTV
networks, it was the way peopleof a certain age consumed music
(12:14):
or at least listen to it, right?
It's gone now, it's stillaround, but it's essentially
gone.
It was a big deal in its day,like radio was.
And so imagine if you're sittingat Paramount, they still exist,
by the way.
So that's an interesting thingto look at.
And if you were to recreatethat, say for future
generations, you'd probably lookto what you're describing, let's
(12:35):
make it a social entity.
You're not gonna say, let's makeit a linear cable that we can
show promotional videos anymore.
You'd that's what I would think.
Um if I ever bump into DavidEllison, I almost did recently
in LA, I'm gonna get abuttonhole of him and say, I've
got an idea for you.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (12:50):
There you go.
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
Anyway, but it's it's definitely part of it.
And um, you know, the the realthing is maybe jumping out a
little bit more is is you know,YouTube, I think is really the
one that's changed everything.
And um like uh maybe some ofyour questions I would I would I
would pose to them because Ithink they're the ones that are
actually in the driver's seat ifthey wanted to say, I don't know
if it's buy a film studio, butpull their boat right up next to
(13:14):
it and act a lot more like it.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (13:16):
And you actually touched on one of the
other points and uh topics Iwanted to cover, which is AI and
digital in the music industry.
So you've been in the space forquite a bit.
You know the music industry likeno one else does.
You have been surrounded bystars, you've built stars,
you've seen them explode, andthen you've seen them disappear
(13:39):
at this point.
SPEAKER_02 (13:39):
I've seen a lot disappear too, by the way.
A lot more than explode.
Anyway, go ahead.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (13:43):
How has AI over the last couple of years
changed the music industry fromyour perspective?
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Aaron Powell So it gets a ton of publicity.
You know, everyone three yearsago, everyone was asking about
uh NFTs, you know, and Web3 andhow that would explode the
industry.
I'm, you know, I'm I'm uh kindof a hybrid digital and
traditionalist when it comes tomusic.
I've worked in, I spent a goodpart of my career in it.
And it's always important, bythe way, to understand the
(14:10):
basics of how an industry works,its ecosystem, its architecture,
music.
Uh, I, you know, tell this tostudents who I teach, um
understand how rights work andhow they get exploited, how
contracts work.
A lot of this stuff hasn'tactually changed all that much.
So I'm not of the view thatanything is going to completely
(14:30):
explode like the industrystructure, whether it's AI or
Web3 or blockchain or uhwhatever.
There's a lot of other stuff Igo back on.
You know, the mini-disc or DAT,whatever it might be.
Um AI has been a part of themusic ecosystem for some time.
Like it helps things, it helpsuser experiences.
If you're like a radio company,you can use AI to tailor better,
(14:53):
you know, like playlists forpeople and make your playlist
more attractive to advertisers.
You can use it to help the userexperience so that you don't
hear pops or pauses betweensongs.
You can certainly use it inrecording processes.
Like people don't realize um oldrecords can be repurposed a bit.
Like one of the last Beatlesrecords, they did Revolver.
They did, if you're aBeatlehead, they did all sorts
(15:15):
of extra tracks on Revolver.
And Giles Martin, who is aGeorge Martin's son, you know,
took the record and totally, youknow, used AI all over it so
that you can hear Harrison'sguitar here and Ringo's bass
here, and just use it to improvethe user experience.
So like that part of AI, and bythe way, there's a lot of that
in Hollywood too.
It doesn't get credited.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
Is non-disruptive, good stuff that helps the
ecosystem, that probably haslegitimate business models too.
So if you're selling it, youcould probably do a software as
a subscription model to people.
Very legitimate stuff.
No one's gonna write about it inthe New York Times, you know.
But um, and so I see a lot of itthat way.
And I see it as good becauselike, you know, um, I have a new
(15:58):
podcast.
I just interviewed an artistthat um they didn't use AI, but
they went into they lost a bandmember, someone died of COVID,
and they were fishing aroundtheir recording studio and
pulled out old tapes that theyhadn't basically, you know, done
anything with.
They just released a new record.
In fact, they just did it usinglike human technology.
(16:19):
But like, you know, I want tosay John Lennon's family and
Paul McCartney found an old tapea few years ago sitting in
Lennon's apartment here in NewYork, and they re-released it.
They released it something onnow and then using AI.
So this that's cool stuff,right?
I mean, it's like a disruptanything.
Um, the new stuff that you'reasking about, these creation
(16:41):
platforms, um, things like Suno,U-Dio, intermediaries, I'll
mention something called clay.
Um, I think are all things thatare trying to bring a new type
of music to the market that'sout there, that's robotically
created, whether it's inconjunction with an artist or
not.
And um I think the data has beenunder-indexing compared to all
(17:07):
the publicity around it.
SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
Meaning in terms of what?
I mean, you go on Spotify, doyou want to listen to the
weekend, or do you want tolisten to Seth and Zisveta's
back mashup of the weekend?
SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
You probably want to listen to the real track.
And some of the new stuff that'screated are novelties to me.
And so um the labels, all threeof the big ones, are very much
in the process of getting armsaround this, some through
legitimate partnerships, somewith lawsuits, you know, and um
and I think it will be part ofthe landscape going forward.
(17:39):
Um, you know, I'm not gonna sithere and tell you the next
Taylor Swift's gonna be a robot.
It's possible that there'll bestuff like that in the future.
I just see it as kind of ummaybe less dramatic than it's
been made out.
I think the if you're a lawyerin the space or a policy person
or a strategist, there's tons ofmeat in terms of, you know, the
emerging copyright law aroundit, which is mostly unclear, I
(18:03):
think.
And um, I think the Europeanshave been maybe more aggressive
than our regulators have been onit.
But I think ultimately, ifthere's like an AI music
business, it'll be part ofwhat's called like a streaming
uh 2.0 strategy.
So I'm gonna drag it down forall the consumers out there.
If you pay 20 bucks for Spotify,maybe there'll be a tier where
(18:26):
you pay 20 an extra five bucks.
You get all this AI stuff, youget the fan clubs, you may get
specific access to stuff thatartists have created, and you'll
pay a little bit more, and itwill help expand the, you know,
the the pie for the rightsholders.
And that's that's how I see itplaying out.
And there's a lot of goodplayers in the space that are
trying to do this.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (18:45):
That's a very interesting point.
What I've actually seen uh onthe consumer end is that
consumers are using AI more andmore because they're trying to
have obviously more content,personal content, for example,
for social media, where they'relooking for copyright for cheap
ways to adapt specific likeslike a song or a character that
(19:10):
they love from the entertainmentindustry, and they adapt it
using AI.
How does that affect the wholeindustry?
Have you seen it play in reallife with projects?
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
It's a great point.
I mean, I think well, what I'veseen broadly is when, say, I'll
I'll give you like my TV stuffor I the new podcast I have
called Breaking Down the Biz,like when we have short video
clips that we po post and we letpeople do stuff with it,
whatever it is, yeah, getswildly more used than the
full-on us talking for a half anhour.
(19:42):
And I think I think there's astrong appetite for I think
rights holders in music, forexample, have recognized that
with Meta and Instagram andTikTok and making their
libraries and catalogs availableto them for specific purposes.
So I think that's veryreasonable what you're
describing.
But I think in the scheme ofthings, in other words, if
you're Warner Music Group andyou want to allow, say, a
(20:05):
Madonna track to be used insocial media for a very specific
purpose, you're gonna license itthat way.
The underlying, you know,they're gonna still figure out
that what we created istrackable to Madonna's creation
and they will get paid on it.
I think that's typically how itworks, or their entities out
there.
I mean, I mentioned thiscompany, Clay, there's a few
(20:26):
others that are trying to figureout the underlying rights behind
this.
You think back to hip-hop music,by the way, which has got lots
of samples in it, the way DJswork, by the way, which does all
this stuff.
All these things eventuallythere were technologies, if you
really want to get into theinside baseball, audio
fingerprinting, watermarks,stuff that can track the data
(20:49):
that goes back to the rightsholders, the performer and the
songwriter, which are usuallythe two principal trees of
rights in music, that thosearen't gonna change.
And so um whether a robot canget created with that or not, I
think is is a really goodquestion.
But in other words, this stuffwill be tracked and will be
licensed for specific uses, andthe owners will get paid on it,
(21:12):
basically.
And I'm I'm gonna be old schoolhere.
Like that's the way it shouldwork.
Because what you don't want tohave happen is um, you know, I I
dealt with uh this entity calledNapster back in the day when I
was at Jive Records, had adigital.
I took calls from theirexecutives saying, you know,
please save our soul, don't killus.
You know, try and find a way torepurpose what we're doing to
(21:33):
make it legitimate.
And I went to my bosses at atJive.
They they told me to get thehell out of the room.
Our lawyers are handling that inDC, and you're not to talk to
those people or touch thepartners to deal with.
And um, you know, that's kind ofa a radical strategy, but um I
don't believe you should breakfirst and ask permission later.
(21:54):
You you gotta go in and ask forin the AI world and music now,
um, the two big plus.
Platforms.
There's one called Yu-DiO thatseems to have the blessing of
the rights holders becausethey're getting everything they
do licensed and they're puttingit in what I would call a walled
garden.
Meaning we create a track andit's going to sit in that
(22:17):
garden.
It's not going to go to Spotifyand impact Madonna's music that
isn't AI.
And they're big, the biggestplayers in recorded music,
Universal being the biggest, arelike they are adamantly
supportive of what I justdescribed.
There's another party in themarket, they're called Suno,
that that that wants thecreations to be made freely
(22:38):
available to all.
And that ain't gonna happen forsome of the rights holders
because of how if you make allthis stuff available and it's
not, I don't know, managed insome way, but it could be free
also, it's gonna start impactingthe underlying economics of how
digital music was built.
And so they're gonna fight that.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (23:00):
Yeah.
And and that brings me to thenext question, which is how is
the digital world built?
And I'll uh this questionactually comes, it's rooted in
another conversation I had witha basically talent uh who
discovered one of the biggestcelebrities of all times, one of
the biggest singers, Lady Gaga.
And we talked quite a bit abouthow currently talent is being
(23:23):
paid.
So if you think about again, allof the changes we see with AI
and with the new monetizationways through social media and
through subscriptions andthrough, you know, basically
royalties and all of that.
How is that digital industryreally built to benefit the
stars or the talent?
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Well, it's a great question.
I mean, a lot of these, like,you know, getting paid as an
artist or a celebrity orperformer, it varies by
industry.
There's, you know, like music'smodels are different than the
way Brad Pitt does a deal with astudio or something like that.
Um, so they they are they dotend to be different.
But I'll start with music, whichis easier for me than an
example.
But like typically like therecorded music rights are held
(24:05):
by, say, a record label.
If you wrote the songs, a musicpublisher manages those.
Um and so all the other stuff istypically you as the artist.
And I'm speaking in generalterms here, case by case, but
what you make from say you do acelebrity endorsement or you
sell a t-shirt, um, or you do alive concert performance, um, or
(24:26):
you charge money for a fan club.
Those are all forms of incomethat accrue to the artist.
And so if you're looking at anyof these new types of social,
could be AI could just be doingan Instagram fan club, you know,
those are all things that wouldaccrue to you.
And they should, if you ifyou're um you got enough of an
audience, those are things youwant to be building on your own.
(24:46):
So not every artist can do that.
I mean, you mentioned so a LadyGaga, a Taylor Swift, that's
fantastic, but they're notactually great comparisons to
most of the, you know, they're99% of artists need um income on
all these fronts, including fromthe music piece of it I just
described.
Um, so I mean, you need a goodsocial strategy, you need a good
(25:09):
manager to start making thosemonies.
I think in terms of these otherindustries, um, very different
stuff, but like, you know,there's been some very
interesting new developments umwith AI.
I'll mention a company calledEleven Labs that is doing just
amazing stuff in my view withthe voice, actually.
Right.
So you can get Babe Ruth's voicefrom a marketplace, and you
(25:31):
know, Babe Ruth's estate isJohnny Weissmuller's estate, is
cool with that, and they'regonna make it available.
And I think that's aninteresting thing.
The celebrity and talent stuff,like I think to me, like the
artist, the talent needs toconsent to what they're doing,
and they need to figure outwhether it's with their talent
agents or their managementcompanies, how to sell and
(25:52):
capitalize on that.
That if it's personal, so ifit's, you know, whatever, Kate
Hudson or Brad Pitt, they can dothat on their own through their
agents.
But I think the film studiosthemselves, we started talking
about film studios, you know,that's a another interesting
thing where they got to look atsame some of the same things
that like the record labels are,like how we license our
(26:15):
properties to this.
That's what this whole DisneyOpenAI thing was about.
And you can see it's for themoment, it's it's off right now.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (26:22):
Yeah.
And does that um also relate tohow the new talent, so not the
lady gagas into Taylor Swifts ofthe world, does is that relevant
to how new talent would come outwith their talent to the world
and get discovered?
Um is AI, does it does it haveany shape or form?
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Um I mean, I don't know if it's AI specifically.
I think the real thing, at leastI've certainly seen this music,
and I think it I think it's veryapplicable to other, you know,
stars as well, is you know,social media as, I mean, stating
the obvious has become just anenormous way to break through on
a lot of fronts.
A lot of artists now, you know,they look to TikTok to break.
(27:03):
And they have all kinds ofadvanced TikTok or Instagram
launch strategies and audiencebuilding strategies.
And they don't look to theirrecord label, sorry for my
friends in the labels anymore,as as much as as much as they do
having these social strategies.
And um, some of that is creatingtheir own content organic, some
of it's buying stuff.
And um, and I'm not necessarilylike, you know, gonna tell you
(27:26):
that the next Joni Mitchell iscoming from TikTok, but it
probably will, actually.
It just, I don't know, likeabout there's been a
questionable record of likelongevity and how you build
careers.
And I know more people who tellyou it's not gonna happen
through the social media than itis through traditional artist
building strategies.
But I think that's where a lotof the launch you know
(27:48):
aspirations go these days.
And I I manage actually uhseveral artists.
I um not only because I lovemusic, because I like helping on
the business front, and um, oh,it's so hard these days.
You can be the next Miles Davisor the next Lennon McCartney.
And when you're talking to, say,labels or partners, they want to
(28:10):
know what your streaming numbersare like.
How big is your TikTok?
What's the size of your YouTube?
And you know, some artistsaren't at all inclined socially.
They don't want to anything todo with it.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (28:22):
Because they're artists, they shouldn't
be social media influencers inorder to become an artist.
That was another point that Iwanted to bring up with again
social media and beingdiscovered or getting
discovered.
Where's where's that in betweenvirality and looking for viral
virality and posting content forthe purpose of wanting to get
(28:43):
out there versus on the otherhand, talent.
So again, like you could be thebest, you could be the next
McCartney.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Yeah.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (28:52):
But you don't know how to be an influencer.
Where's that in between?
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
I mean, I think it's you gotta have some talent in
the space or someone helping youin the space or some kind of
credible strategy around itthese days.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (29:04):
Is that what Strat America helps with?
SPEAKER_01 (29:06):
Um, I do a little bit of that.
I'm more of a business developerenterprise type person, but I do
work with with social mediamarketing companies for sure.
Um, but I don't know.
It's it that's probably the thetoughest challenge you're
putting your finger on it fortalent that want to break
through.
You know, I mean, I thinkthere's a lot of cool ways now.
You could do television shows.
(29:26):
I mean, I've done we talkedabout Broadway before we started
the the podcast here.
Um, there's a lot ofopportunities in that space
where music's a part of it.
Um, you know, all these realityshows, I mean, there's crazy
stuff.
I know people who are glued toBravo shows, and I don't think
it's a crazy idea to think thatpeople can build music in and
around these things.
I've I've seen a lot of examplesin Latin America of young stars
(29:49):
breaking out first throughInstagram with no music.
You know, they they may bephysically very appealing or
attractive, and they figure outways to leverage that for um for
solid music businessengagements, and then they get
contracts around it, and thenthey build.
So I think it's a combination ofa lot of these things.
I mean, what what's clear now isyou know, we talked about Lady
Gaga, Madonna, you know, there'ssuch a mix of stuff now.
(30:13):
So it's not going to be an MTVvideo for sure, and it's not
likely to be a radio singleeither.
I the artists I manage, andthey're so great, they're so
hardworking, they churn outmusic a lot and they get so
excited when they bring out anew single, and they can
self-distribute these days.
In fact, a lot of artists don't.
But how do you do that?
There's a ton of we call it inthe biz DSPs, but platforms
(30:35):
that'll get you up onto thingslike Spotify.
I'm a fan of one called Videa,but um Symphonic, Tune Core,
Distro Kid, Mondo Kid, whatever.
There's a million of these.
And you you and I can make arecord, it'll be up on Spotify
in 30 minutes if we want.
But how do you build an audiencearound it?
It's gonna go into the etherwith millions of tracks,
including all this AI stuff youtalked about.
(30:56):
And um, you need to find a wayto get it out, the media, and
get people to pay attention toit.
And it's you gotta be verydigitally savvy.
It's hard.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (31:04):
I read a statistic um that marketing, the
marketing cost forentertainment, for music artists
specifically, accounts foralmost half of basically the
revenue.
So once uh they create anartist, this was part of my
conversation with our otherguest a few weeks ago.
Um, basically half of the moneythat is budgeted for the star
(31:28):
for the talent, half of it getsslashed and goes into marketing
cost.
And the majority of that costgoes into digital and back to
social.
Is that accurate?
Have you seen it from yourexperience?
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Yeah, I've seen a lot of artist scenarios, um, you
know, small, medium, large,extra large, superstar, as well
as um old and new.
I mean, the mix has changed alot just because the principal
channels for promoting andreleasing music and you know
change.
Obviously, you know, uh aSpotify and a YouTube music and
Apple Music and Amazon arereally the huge ways to listen
(32:04):
to things and consume it.
But some of these social medianetworks, Instagram and TikTok,
are probably the principal onesto break an artist.
So um, yeah, I would, I would, Imean, it varies case by case,
but that would not seeminaccurate to me.
I think the real thing I'veseen, like at least at the major
label level, um, is that, and Isay this respectfully, I came
(32:25):
out of Sony's system and I stilllove them.
I got a lot of friends atUniversal, but the role has
changed.
So they have to look to some ofthese things you're mentioning
more than they do epic recordsor inner scope to break the
record.
Of course, they're principallythere, and if you're gonna sign
your rights exclusively to them,you're gonna want to hear what
they do.
But yeah, I think that thebudgets are definitely gonna be
(32:46):
tilted more towards digital.
Um, you know, it's funny becauser radio, radio promotion, who's
always been considered a bigpart of the music industry.
You know, rate radio still hasbig audiences.
It's not sexy to talk about, butpeople still drive cars and
listen to radio.
It still has a huge, hugelistening share and market
(33:06):
share.
And so there are still radiopromotion budgets that are out
there, and and um video, by theway, is still important.
Uh very rarely do people talkabout vivo, but vivo is the
record company.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (33:18):
Is it still alive?
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
Vivo is the record company's the main main video
portal that we created inresponse to YouTube.
And it it kind of got sucked inand under YouTube, but 100% it's
still alive.
It may not mean that much as aconsumer thing, but you want to
have a video channel on vivo.
You want to have your videos upthere, and they're still part of
the mix for sure.
So, you know, you want to wantto tour, obviously.
(33:42):
You want to get whether it's AXSor Live Nation or some
independent promoter to helpyou.
You need a booker to do that.
All these things are,particularly the touring stuff,
it's very hard to do becausethey'll look at you and go,
Well, artist A, B, and C, thisis a really cool single, but
what's the size of your socialmedia?
How many butts can you get inseats in my bar?
(34:03):
And here's the minimum.
So it it's it's a very differentlandscape now, um, you know, to
to break through.
Sorry, sorry, throw all this atyou, but that's how it works.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (34:16):
It it is a very our attention spans are
obviously the lowest they'veever been, and every single day
um audiences out there arebombarded with messaging across
TV, across social media, and andeverywhere.
Yeah.
So I'm sure that it's verychallenging for artists, but
this was actually a veryinteresting conversation.
Uh so I almost feel like I knowat this point how I can get into
(34:40):
the industry.
Before we go, I I would love tohear are there any cool stories
that you can share with us withuh any of the celebrities and uh
talent you've managed?
SPEAKER_01 (34:50):
There's a lot.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (34:51):
Um what's the best one?
SPEAKER_01 (34:53):
I don't know if there's a best one, but I'll
tell you that um, let's see, Idid I did Oasis's very first
like online event in the UnitedStates for them.
It was called a chat when I wasrunning AOL music in its early
days, and it was just me and uh,you know, someone on my team, uh
a person named Thea McHugh who'sstill a good friend and does
great things in music for womenand and other interests.
(35:15):
And um, you know, I I reachedout to Oasis's management
because um, you know, they werethey were basically coming to
the US right before they weresuperstars.
This is 1996.
And um so, you know, I thoughtI'd be getting the assistant or
the secretary, but you know, Igot Noel and his girlfriend who
(35:36):
were the managers.
And they're like, sure, we'll dothis.
And so uh, so me and Thea andAOL brought him into a room at a
show they did in DC, and theywalked in and they they spent
the first 20 minutes abusing me,making fun of me, saying, Who is
this guy with glasses?
And and um, and then Liam said,What the hell is this?
(35:57):
Sorry for my language.
And I explained to them, it'sit's gonna be something called a
chat, and you're gonna betalking with your fans.
And so we put the computer onthe floor, cinder block room
behind uh this stage in a placecalled the Patriot Center in DC.
And and Liam sat down andstarted going through it all in
about two minutes, and he waslike, in language I could barely
(36:17):
understand, because they weretalking to me in Liverpool, but
it was some kind of they werepurposely, you know, like
messing with me.
This is great, I could do thisall day.
And we had like, you know,thousands of Brits joining.
And um I walked them out afterwe did the chat onto the the
terrace uh backstage, and therewere hundreds of people waiting
outside the arena.
(36:39):
And I was with Liam and Noel,and um this guy who was an actor
on an MTV show at the timecalled The Real World, guy named
Duncan, Duncan Kennedy.
And I'm not kidding you, everyone of those kids erupted when
they saw this guy, Duncan.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
I mean, erupted, and it was like they didn't
recognize Noel and Liam.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:01):
Of course, the British kids don't even know
who that is.
SPEAKER_01 (37:03):
Oh, yeah, these are American kids, and it was like
uh I was like, oh my god, thisMTV thing is is really
important.
So that's what happened.
Then they asked me to gobackstage and then hang out with
them back at their hotel room.
But I had a meeting nextmorning, so I couldn't go like
an idiot, so I missed it.
So that's my Oasis story.
I don't know if it's the bestone, but it's true.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:20):
It is an awesome story, and again, it
actually shows me that you werea pioneer back in the day,
thinking ahead and planning forthe digital era.
Um there's a lot of good ones.
SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
There's there's ones with Mick Jagger and Bowie, and
there's a really good one forLou Reed, but maybe next time as
well.
Okay.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:35):
Oh, this is such a teaser.
Well, thank you so much forcoming.
It's been such a pleasure havingyou.
SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
Great coming on.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:42):
And I'm sure you will be back soon.
So please let us know next timeyou're back to New York City.
SPEAKER_01 (37:47):
Thanks so much.
I really appreciate it.
I hope uh maybe you can checkout my podcast too, called
Breaking Down the Biz.
One of these days, maybe we'llhave you on it as well if you
want to come out to LA.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:55):
Absolutely.
Breaking down the biz and themoney signal will definitely
collaborate.
SPEAKER_02 (38:00):
Thanks so much.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (38:01):
Thank you.
It's been such a pleasure.
Thank you guys so much forjoining us for another episode
of the Money Signal podcast fromMain Street to Wall Street,
where we talk withentrepreneurs, leaders, and
C-suite about everything youmust know around Main Street and
Wall Street and how theyinteract.
(38:23):
Have a lovely rest of the day.
Welcome to the Money Signal podcast set.
SPEAKER_01 (00:02):
Great to be here.
It's so nice.
What a pleasure.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:04):
So nice to see you finally in person.
Yeah.
So we've been uh seeing eachother on TV quite a bit.
Yeah.
And the first time I actuallysaw you was on one of the big TV
networks, and you were talkingabout one of those big mergers
in the entertainment industry.
And I thought that's sointeresting.
Very interesting insights thatyou brought on.
(00:25):
So I'm very glad that weconnected.
Thank you.
And that I have you as a gueston this podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
It's always cooler and better to actually meet and
connect in real life.
Although I think, you know, wemet, I guess, virtually through
all this electronic posting andstuff like that.
And you know, the algorithmsworked.
It was really great.
So I'm glad to be here.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:50):
And then the other topic that uh we talked
about was actually AI and themusic industry.
Uh-huh.
Sure.
So before we actually jump intoour conversation, I would love
for you, in your own words, tointroduce yourself to our
audience.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Sure.
I'm Seth Schachner.
I am a uh you know prettyexperienced media and
entertainment and technologyexecutive.
I've worked um, I think for manydifferent American entertainment
companies.
I think every one of them exceptfor Disney, if I charge it all
up, um, mostly in the area ofdigital business, you know, so
helping digital businesses growwith partnerships, content
partnerships, audience buildingpartnerships.
(01:26):
And I've had experience both,you know, in our country in the
U.S.
and uh a lot of internationalexperience.
I spent a bunch of yearsactually in Latin America with
Sony Music and um helping buildtheir business there.
But I think I'm I'm known um foran 11-year run with Sony Music,
leading digital um probablyduring the worst decade you
(01:47):
could choose to do that,basically, for a couple of label
groups, one called Jive Recordshere in New York and uh and in
Latin America.
But I've worked really broadly.
I was at a place called AOL, Ithink it was their very first
music executive, and and a lotof other places like Microsoft
and Liberty.
And I'm um I'm principally anadvisor and investor these days.
I run something called StratAmericas.
And you know, I help media andtech companies with partnership.
(02:09):
It's a classic uh, you know,consulting model, and have been
based in LA for the last sevenor eight years.
And um, I don't know, maybebecause it's it's Tinsel Town, I
get a lot of chances to go onthe media and talk.
So I've been doing a lot oftelevision and radio and just
recently launched a podcast.
So in a nutshell, that's me.
Tsvetta Kaleyns (02:28):
Congratulations on the launch of the podcast.
I've actually seen you on someof these big televisions, from
CNN to Fox to Schwab.
Yeah, yeah.
Almost every time that I turn onthe TV, especially these weeks
uh with the uh big announcementsaround these mergers for some of
the companies.
Yeah.
So on this podcast, I love tobring in consumer data or
(02:49):
interesting statistics from theworld around us, and obviously
the topic of uh interest orchoice.
So why don't we start off andtalk about something very
interesting, which is uhcurrently in the next few weeks,
so April 23rd is the shareholdervote basically for Warner
Brothers.
(03:10):
That's actually a really bigtopic, and that's right up your
alley.
We're hearing obviously if it'sgonna happen, we're we're
hearing some counter thoughts umsaying that there may it may
actually not happen.
Yeah for someone who's not inthis industry like me, I read
(03:31):
the news and I'm gettingconfused.
What's your take on is thisgoing to happen?
And why is it such, I mean, abig deal?
Obviously, you understand thatthis merger, like every merger,
is important, but why is thisone?
It just feels very different.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yeah.
Well, um You know, the theshareholder vote, it's
interesting to hear you talkabout that because I think
sometimes the the press and thepublic debate doesn't focus on
that.
So it is probably likely tohappen from a shareholder voting
perspective.
Yes.
Um there's a ton of prettyserious and substantive, you
(04:07):
know, regulatory considerationsaround it.
Some not so political, somepolitical.
And there's a ton of extremelyserious uh financial and and
most importantly, debtconsiderations around that
thing.
If it gets put, it's gonna be$80billion in debt or$79 billion,
which is crazy.
Um so so it's not clear, youknow, if if enough, I think,
(04:31):
interest start listening tothose points, it might not
happen, actually.
Um why is it important?
Um I think it's a great part, agreat you know, second part of
the question.
Um, you know, Hollywood's beenshaken up by so many things, by
AI, by labor strife, bystreaming services, um, by its
(04:53):
business model being disruptedmassively, including things like
theaters.
And so our studio system, I'mbased in LA, so I can I can use
that collective term, needs tobe reshaped and um restructured
so that you know futuregenerations appreciate it and
want to, whether it's go totheaters or watch the content or
(05:14):
consume it in some way.
And there's a big question now,just given how important and big
Netflix is and all of itsbrethren and competitors, how
you do that.
And I think what is reallycritical here is whether or not
the market or the regulatorsthink that it's okay to lose a
(05:34):
massive legacy studio in theprocess of allowing some type of
reinvention.
We're gonna lose a studio.
A lot of people, creativecommunity, staff, pictures, the
whole bit.
No matter what um, you know,David Ellison says, all the
yucky stuff, because this iswhat do they call it, a Noah's
Ark problem.
You get two things paramount,two staffs, everything from two
(05:56):
travel departments to twoproduction departments to big
enterprises like HBO, which, youknow, I don't know if anyone
would want to mess around withtheir programming, they're so
good.
CNN being combined with uh CBS,sports, there's, you know, so
it's it's a big thing that has alot of potentially, you know,
big disruptions if the two cometogether, and a lot of people
(06:17):
are going to lose their jobs.
And um it's important.
I think people are very scaredand concerned about the
bloodletting and the job lossesthat would happen if those two
combine.
The concerns were actually lesswith the other one, Netflix,
that dropped out over you know,the pricing of it, because
they're different enterprisesand a lot of us, me included,
(06:39):
were finally, you know,scratching our head and going,
you know, maybe the Netflixthing was a better idea because
it was a different beast and itwould be something that would
transform a film studio.
So it's it's a tough thing.
It's gonna go on for a while,maybe a year, maybe a year and a
half before we know.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (06:53):
And do we have do you have any fear of
basically monopoly on the globalmarket?
SPEAKER_01 (06:58):
Um not monopoly per se.
I think there's um this is amoney podcast.
You have sophisticated listenershere, right?
People with MBAs and wallstreeters, people much smarter
than me for sure.
So there's a concept calledmonopsony, I think, which is
where you reduce the pool ofbuyers for creative content.
So if you're a writer, anactress, director, a producer,
(07:22):
and you're pitching yourproject, you know, you want to
take it down the block and havelots of stores to pitch it to.
You're gonna lose one here.
You know, what whatever theysay, you're gonna lose one, in
my view.
So there'll be one less buyer.
And it's a pretty big deal,particularly if you're looking
at um, you know, Americaninterests.
You know, I don't know if that'sthe fairest way to look at it,
(07:44):
but it is historically one ofour two most or three most
competitive industries, right?
It's up there with aerospace.
Um so so I think it's a realconsideration, basically, um, a
serious one if if if we're gonnalose Warner Brothers.
There's a ton of other stuff.
The debt, if you want me to gointo all that stuff, I mean it
it's there's a lot ofbusiness-specific ramifications
(08:07):
if those two things get combinedthat I don't think are terribly
positive personally.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (08:11):
And do you think that any of this, and
again, this merger, which I amlook looking forward to hearing
basically what happens with it?
Do you think that it hasanything to do with the recent
changes in the industry inregards to how media is consumed
primarily?
Because you know that I'm asocial media person.
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
Yeah, great at it, yeah.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (08:31):
Do you think it has anything to do with that?
Um and who's buying it orpotentially buying it?
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Is it a response to the fact that YouTube is bigger
and kids are on TikTok and notreally, in my view.
I mean, I think I think it's asubsidiary.
I think I think, yeah, they are.
I think if you're uh DavidZaslov and his management team,
they've got this mix of assets,some of which are really old
school linear televisionnetworks, right?
Some of which are killer kickbutt creative assets like HBO or
(08:59):
things that get hot like WarnerBrothers, you know, they'll get
a Barbie or Sinners.
Um, and they're looking asguardians of those shares with
their shareholders, how do youmaximize that?
And so they were gonna sell offthe TV networks just like NBC
Universal's done, or spin themoff.
And they'd probably figure outanother strategy for Warner
Brothers, which is where theNetflix thing came from.
(09:19):
And so that's happening in partbecause of what you're
describing.
Yeah.
But I don't I don't view umeither of the two principles as
being social media mavens orexperts.
I'm not criticizing them.
They're just from different kindof generations, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
But it's a good it's a good question.
I think um it would be hard withany of the parties, even with
Netflix, to say this is um, youknow, a really this is being
driven by social media.
It's a it's a fascinating pointthat no one's ever brought up to
be in the debate.
But that's one of the underlyingthemes for sure.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (09:50):
Yeah.
One of the things I've noticed,obviously, through conversations
with established leaders invarious spaces and industries,
is actually that media is nowconsumed in a very different
manner than it used to be.
If you think about thetraditional broadcast TV and
even your non-traditional, yourlocal linear and others, people
(10:12):
are mostly absorbing it andconsuming it via their cell
phones and primarily on socialmedia.
So the way that news travelsthese days, your traditional
news is shifted or has alreadyshifted towards social media.
This is why obviously we havethese big uh companies that are
that have come into the spaceand taken out all of our
(10:33):
attention and the viewers'attention.
But I've um I was very curiousto basically ask you the
question around, yeah,consumption and if you think
that this whole merger is evenanything close to the I think so
this it's an interesting first,it's a fascinating question.
SPEAKER_01 (10:47):
Yes, I can let me talk to the the social media and
the phone thing in a second.
I think, you know, they'rethey're looking at how do you
make things stronger for thefuture.
And so, I mean, you know, cclearly it's let's combine
forces.
I've seen this, you know, I camefrom the music industry, so I
went through about a half decadeof, you know, where where the
(11:08):
leading recorded music giantssaid, let's consolidate to make
to make our case stronger.
And so I think I think thatprobably is part of the more of
the thinking than it is let's bea social media giant.
I mean, I think, you know, if ifyou're looking at Paramount
Buying Warners, you're lookingat the number of releases you're
gonna fund, you know, what doesyour production slate look like?
Is it bigger or smaller thanbefore?
(11:30):
Do you use the typical releasingmodels goingers first, which
they've pledged to do?
Um and so that to me, I think iswhat they're thinking about.
You know, you need to be big tocompete with Netflix and some of
these digital-only entities morethan anything else.
I mean, um, there are thingswithin, this is probably
(11:51):
getting, you know, maybe anarrower audience for your
podcast or inside baseball, butthere are assets, for example,
within some of these things thatare really interesting assets to
me that if you were looking athow you recreate, I would look
to social media.
I mean, I I grew up when this, Idon't know, never asked people
how old they are, but if youremember something called MTV
networks, it was the way peopleof a certain age consumed music
(12:14):
or at least listen to it, right?
It's gone now, it's stillaround, but it's essentially
gone.
It was a big deal in its day,like radio was.
And so imagine if you're sittingat Paramount, they still exist,
by the way.
So that's an interesting thingto look at.
And if you were to recreatethat, say for future
generations, you'd probably lookto what you're describing, let's
(12:35):
make it a social entity.
You're not gonna say, let's makeit a linear cable that we can
show promotional videos anymore.
You'd that's what I would think.
Um if I ever bump into DavidEllison, I almost did recently
in LA, I'm gonna get abuttonhole of him and say, I've
got an idea for you.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (12:50):
There you go.
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
Anyway, but it's it's definitely part of it.
And um, you know, the the realthing is maybe jumping out a
little bit more is is you know,YouTube, I think is really the
one that's changed everything.
And um like uh maybe some ofyour questions I would I would I
would pose to them because Ithink they're the ones that are
actually in the driver's seat ifthey wanted to say, I don't know
if it's buy a film studio, butpull their boat right up next to
(13:14):
it and act a lot more like it.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (13:16):
And you actually touched on one of the
other points and uh topics Iwanted to cover, which is AI and
digital in the music industry.
So you've been in the space forquite a bit.
You know the music industry likeno one else does.
You have been surrounded bystars, you've built stars,
you've seen them explode, andthen you've seen them disappear
(13:39):
at this point.
SPEAKER_02 (13:39):
I've seen a lot disappear too, by the way.
A lot more than explode.
Anyway, go ahead.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (13:43):
How has AI over the last couple of years
changed the music industry fromyour perspective?
SPEAKER_01 (13:49):
Aaron Powell So it gets a ton of publicity.
You know, everyone three yearsago, everyone was asking about
uh NFTs, you know, and Web3 andhow that would explode the
industry.
I'm, you know, I'm I'm uh kindof a hybrid digital and
traditionalist when it comes tomusic.
I've worked in, I spent a goodpart of my career in it.
And it's always important, bythe way, to understand the
(14:10):
basics of how an industry works,its ecosystem, its architecture,
music.
Uh, I, you know, tell this tostudents who I teach, um
understand how rights work andhow they get exploited, how
contracts work.
A lot of this stuff hasn'tactually changed all that much.
So I'm not of the view thatanything is going to completely
(14:30):
explode like the industrystructure, whether it's AI or
Web3 or blockchain or uhwhatever.
There's a lot of other stuff Igo back on.
You know, the mini-disc or DAT,whatever it might be.
Um AI has been a part of themusic ecosystem for some time.
Like it helps things, it helpsuser experiences.
If you're like a radio company,you can use AI to tailor better,
(14:53):
you know, like playlists forpeople and make your playlist
more attractive to advertisers.
You can use it to help the userexperience so that you don't
hear pops or pauses betweensongs.
You can certainly use it inrecording processes.
Like people don't realize um oldrecords can be repurposed a bit.
Like one of the last Beatlesrecords, they did Revolver.
They did, if you're aBeatlehead, they did all sorts
(15:15):
of extra tracks on Revolver.
And Giles Martin, who is aGeorge Martin's son, you know,
took the record and totally, youknow, used AI all over it so
that you can hear Harrison'sguitar here and Ringo's bass
here, and just use it to improvethe user experience.
So like that part of AI, and bythe way, there's a lot of that
in Hollywood too.
It doesn't get credited.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
Is non-disruptive, good stuff that helps the
ecosystem, that probably haslegitimate business models too.
So if you're selling it, youcould probably do a software as
a subscription model to people.
Very legitimate stuff.
No one's gonna write about it inthe New York Times, you know.
But um, and so I see a lot of itthat way.
And I see it as good becauselike, you know, um, I have a new
(15:58):
podcast.
I just interviewed an artistthat um they didn't use AI, but
they went into they lost a bandmember, someone died of COVID,
and they were fishing aroundtheir recording studio and
pulled out old tapes that theyhadn't basically, you know, done
anything with.
They just released a new record.
In fact, they just did it usinglike human technology.
(16:19):
But like, you know, I want tosay John Lennon's family and
Paul McCartney found an old tapea few years ago sitting in
Lennon's apartment here in NewYork, and they re-released it.
They released it something onnow and then using AI.
So this that's cool stuff,right?
I mean, it's like a disruptanything.
Um, the new stuff that you'reasking about, these creation
(16:41):
platforms, um, things like Suno,U-Dio, intermediaries, I'll
mention something called clay.
Um, I think are all things thatare trying to bring a new type
of music to the market that'sout there, that's robotically
created, whether it's inconjunction with an artist or
not.
And um I think the data has beenunder-indexing compared to all
(17:07):
the publicity around it.
SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
Meaning in terms of what?
I mean, you go on Spotify, doyou want to listen to the
weekend, or do you want tolisten to Seth and Zisveta's
back mashup of the weekend?
SPEAKER_01 (17:17):
You probably want to listen to the real track.
And some of the new stuff that'screated are novelties to me.
And so um the labels, all threeof the big ones, are very much
in the process of getting armsaround this, some through
legitimate partnerships, somewith lawsuits, you know, and um
and I think it will be part ofthe landscape going forward.
(17:39):
Um, you know, I'm not gonna sithere and tell you the next
Taylor Swift's gonna be a robot.
It's possible that there'll bestuff like that in the future.
I just see it as kind of ummaybe less dramatic than it's
been made out.
I think the if you're a lawyerin the space or a policy person
or a strategist, there's tons ofmeat in terms of, you know, the
emerging copyright law aroundit, which is mostly unclear, I
(18:03):
think.
And um, I think the Europeanshave been maybe more aggressive
than our regulators have been onit.
But I think ultimately, ifthere's like an AI music
business, it'll be part ofwhat's called like a streaming
uh 2.0 strategy.
So I'm gonna drag it down forall the consumers out there.
If you pay 20 bucks for Spotify,maybe there'll be a tier where
(18:26):
you pay 20 an extra five bucks.
You get all this AI stuff, youget the fan clubs, you may get
specific access to stuff thatartists have created, and you'll
pay a little bit more, and itwill help expand the, you know,
the the pie for the rightsholders.
And that's that's how I see itplaying out.
And there's a lot of goodplayers in the space that are
trying to do this.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (18:45):
That's a very interesting point.
What I've actually seen uh onthe consumer end is that
consumers are using AI more andmore because they're trying to
have obviously more content,personal content, for example,
for social media, where they'relooking for copyright for cheap
ways to adapt specific likeslike a song or a character that
(19:10):
they love from the entertainmentindustry, and they adapt it
using AI.
How does that affect the wholeindustry?
Have you seen it play in reallife with projects?
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
It's a great point.
I mean, I think well, what I'veseen broadly is when, say, I'll
I'll give you like my TV stuffor I the new podcast I have
called Breaking Down the Biz,like when we have short video
clips that we po post and we letpeople do stuff with it,
whatever it is, yeah, getswildly more used than the
full-on us talking for a half anhour.
(19:42):
And I think I think there's astrong appetite for I think
rights holders in music, forexample, have recognized that
with Meta and Instagram andTikTok and making their
libraries and catalogs availableto them for specific purposes.
So I think that's veryreasonable what you're
describing.
But I think in the scheme ofthings, in other words, if
you're Warner Music Group andyou want to allow, say, a
(20:05):
Madonna track to be used insocial media for a very specific
purpose, you're gonna license itthat way.
The underlying, you know,they're gonna still figure out
that what we created istrackable to Madonna's creation
and they will get paid on it.
I think that's typically how itworks, or their entities out
there.
I mean, I mentioned thiscompany, Clay, there's a few
(20:26):
others that are trying to figureout the underlying rights behind
this.
You think back to hip-hop music,by the way, which has got lots
of samples in it, the way DJswork, by the way, which does all
this stuff.
All these things eventuallythere were technologies, if you
really want to get into theinside baseball, audio
fingerprinting, watermarks,stuff that can track the data
(20:49):
that goes back to the rightsholders, the performer and the
songwriter, which are usuallythe two principal trees of
rights in music, that thosearen't gonna change.
And so um whether a robot canget created with that or not, I
think is is a really goodquestion.
But in other words, this stuffwill be tracked and will be
licensed for specific uses, andthe owners will get paid on it,
(21:12):
basically.
And I'm I'm gonna be old schoolhere.
Like that's the way it shouldwork.
Because what you don't want tohave happen is um, you know, I I
dealt with uh this entity calledNapster back in the day when I
was at Jive Records, had adigital.
I took calls from theirexecutives saying, you know,
please save our soul, don't killus.
You know, try and find a way torepurpose what we're doing to
(21:33):
make it legitimate.
And I went to my bosses at atJive.
They they told me to get thehell out of the room.
Our lawyers are handling that inDC, and you're not to talk to
those people or touch thepartners to deal with.
And um, you know, that's kind ofa a radical strategy, but um I
don't believe you should breakfirst and ask permission later.
(21:54):
You you gotta go in and ask forin the AI world and music now,
um, the two big plus.
Platforms.
There's one called Yu-DiO thatseems to have the blessing of
the rights holders becausethey're getting everything they
do licensed and they're puttingit in what I would call a walled
garden.
Meaning we create a track andit's going to sit in that
(22:17):
garden.
It's not going to go to Spotifyand impact Madonna's music that
isn't AI.
And they're big, the biggestplayers in recorded music,
Universal being the biggest, arelike they are adamantly
supportive of what I justdescribed.
There's another party in themarket, they're called Suno,
that that that wants thecreations to be made freely
(22:38):
available to all.
And that ain't gonna happen forsome of the rights holders
because of how if you make allthis stuff available and it's
not, I don't know, managed insome way, but it could be free
also, it's gonna start impactingthe underlying economics of how
digital music was built.
And so they're gonna fight that.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (23:00):
Yeah.
And and that brings me to thenext question, which is how is
the digital world built?
And I'll uh this questionactually comes, it's rooted in
another conversation I had witha basically talent uh who
discovered one of the biggestcelebrities of all times, one of
the biggest singers, Lady Gaga.
And we talked quite a bit abouthow currently talent is being
(23:23):
paid.
So if you think about again, allof the changes we see with AI
and with the new monetizationways through social media and
through subscriptions andthrough, you know, basically
royalties and all of that.
How is that digital industryreally built to benefit the
stars or the talent?
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Well, it's a great question.
I mean, a lot of these, like,you know, getting paid as an
artist or a celebrity orperformer, it varies by
industry.
There's, you know, like music'smodels are different than the
way Brad Pitt does a deal with astudio or something like that.
Um, so they they are they dotend to be different.
But I'll start with music, whichis easier for me than an
example.
But like typically like therecorded music rights are held
(24:05):
by, say, a record label.
If you wrote the songs, a musicpublisher manages those.
Um and so all the other stuff istypically you as the artist.
And I'm speaking in generalterms here, case by case, but
what you make from say you do acelebrity endorsement or you
sell a t-shirt, um, or you do alive concert performance, um, or
(24:26):
you charge money for a fan club.
Those are all forms of incomethat accrue to the artist.
And so if you're looking at anyof these new types of social,
could be AI could just be doingan Instagram fan club, you know,
those are all things that wouldaccrue to you.
And they should, if you ifyou're um you got enough of an
audience, those are things youwant to be building on your own.
(24:46):
So not every artist can do that.
I mean, you mentioned so a LadyGaga, a Taylor Swift, that's
fantastic, but they're notactually great comparisons to
most of the, you know, they're99% of artists need um income on
all these fronts, including fromthe music piece of it I just
described.
Um, so I mean, you need a goodsocial strategy, you need a good
(25:09):
manager to start making thosemonies.
I think in terms of these otherindustries, um, very different
stuff, but like, you know,there's been some very
interesting new developments umwith AI.
I'll mention a company calledEleven Labs that is doing just
amazing stuff in my view withthe voice, actually.
Right.
So you can get Babe Ruth's voicefrom a marketplace, and you
(25:31):
know, Babe Ruth's estate isJohnny Weissmuller's estate, is
cool with that, and they'regonna make it available.
And I think that's aninteresting thing.
The celebrity and talent stuff,like I think to me, like the
artist, the talent needs toconsent to what they're doing,
and they need to figure outwhether it's with their talent
agents or their managementcompanies, how to sell and
(25:52):
capitalize on that.
That if it's personal, so ifit's, you know, whatever, Kate
Hudson or Brad Pitt, they can dothat on their own through their
agents.
But I think the film studiosthemselves, we started talking
about film studios, you know,that's a another interesting
thing where they got to look atsame some of the same things
that like the record labels are,like how we license our
(26:15):
properties to this.
That's what this whole DisneyOpenAI thing was about.
And you can see it's for themoment, it's it's off right now.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (26:22):
Yeah.
And does that um also relate tohow the new talent, so not the
lady gagas into Taylor Swifts ofthe world, does is that relevant
to how new talent would come outwith their talent to the world
and get discovered?
Um is AI, does it does it haveany shape or form?
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Um I mean, I don't know if it's AI specifically.
I think the real thing, at leastI've certainly seen this music,
and I think it I think it's veryapplicable to other, you know,
stars as well, is you know,social media as, I mean, stating
the obvious has become just anenormous way to break through on
a lot of fronts.
A lot of artists now, you know,they look to TikTok to break.
(27:03):
And they have all kinds ofadvanced TikTok or Instagram
launch strategies and audiencebuilding strategies.
And they don't look to theirrecord label, sorry for my
friends in the labels anymore,as as much as as much as they do
having these social strategies.
And um, some of that is creatingtheir own content organic, some
of it's buying stuff.
And um, and I'm not necessarilylike, you know, gonna tell you
(27:26):
that the next Joni Mitchell iscoming from TikTok, but it
probably will, actually.
It just, I don't know, likeabout there's been a
questionable record of likelongevity and how you build
careers.
And I know more people who tellyou it's not gonna happen
through the social media than itis through traditional artist
building strategies.
But I think that's where a lotof the launch you know
(27:48):
aspirations go these days.
And I I manage actually uhseveral artists.
I um not only because I lovemusic, because I like helping on
the business front, and um, oh,it's so hard these days.
You can be the next Miles Davisor the next Lennon McCartney.
And when you're talking to, say,labels or partners, they want to
(28:10):
know what your streaming numbersare like.
How big is your TikTok?
What's the size of your YouTube?
And you know, some artistsaren't at all inclined socially.
They don't want to anything todo with it.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (28:22):
Because they're artists, they shouldn't
be social media influencers inorder to become an artist.
That was another point that Iwanted to bring up with again
social media and beingdiscovered or getting
discovered.
Where's where's that in betweenvirality and looking for viral
virality and posting content forthe purpose of wanting to get
(28:43):
out there versus on the otherhand, talent.
So again, like you could be thebest, you could be the next
McCartney.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Yeah.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (28:52):
But you don't know how to be an influencer.
Where's that in between?
SPEAKER_01 (28:56):
I mean, I think it's you gotta have some talent in
the space or someone helping youin the space or some kind of
credible strategy around itthese days.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (29:04):
Is that what Strat America helps with?
SPEAKER_01 (29:06):
Um, I do a little bit of that.
I'm more of a business developerenterprise type person, but I do
work with with social mediamarketing companies for sure.
Um, but I don't know.
It's it that's probably the thetoughest challenge you're
putting your finger on it fortalent that want to break
through.
You know, I mean, I thinkthere's a lot of cool ways now.
You could do television shows.
(29:26):
I mean, I've done we talkedabout Broadway before we started
the the podcast here.
Um, there's a lot ofopportunities in that space
where music's a part of it.
Um, you know, all these realityshows, I mean, there's crazy
stuff.
I know people who are glued toBravo shows, and I don't think
it's a crazy idea to think thatpeople can build music in and
around these things.
I've I've seen a lot of examplesin Latin America of young stars
(29:49):
breaking out first throughInstagram with no music.
You know, they they may bephysically very appealing or
attractive, and they figure outways to leverage that for um for
solid music businessengagements, and then they get
contracts around it, and thenthey build.
So I think it's a combination ofa lot of these things.
I mean, what what's clear now isyou know, we talked about Lady
Gaga, Madonna, you know, there'ssuch a mix of stuff now.
(30:13):
So it's not going to be an MTVvideo for sure, and it's not
likely to be a radio singleeither.
I the artists I manage, andthey're so great, they're so
hardworking, they churn outmusic a lot and they get so
excited when they bring out anew single, and they can
self-distribute these days.
In fact, a lot of artists don't.
But how do you do that?
There's a ton of we call it inthe biz DSPs, but platforms
(30:35):
that'll get you up onto thingslike Spotify.
I'm a fan of one called Videa,but um Symphonic, Tune Core,
Distro Kid, Mondo Kid, whatever.
There's a million of these.
And you you and I can make arecord, it'll be up on Spotify
in 30 minutes if we want.
But how do you build an audiencearound it?
It's gonna go into the etherwith millions of tracks,
including all this AI stuff youtalked about.
(30:56):
And um, you need to find a wayto get it out, the media, and
get people to pay attention toit.
And it's you gotta be verydigitally savvy.
It's hard.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (31:04):
I read a statistic um that marketing, the
marketing cost forentertainment, for music artists
specifically, accounts foralmost half of basically the
revenue.
So once uh they create anartist, this was part of my
conversation with our otherguest a few weeks ago.
Um, basically half of the moneythat is budgeted for the star
(31:28):
for the talent, half of it getsslashed and goes into marketing
cost.
And the majority of that costgoes into digital and back to
social.
Is that accurate?
Have you seen it from yourexperience?
SPEAKER_01 (31:41):
Yeah, I've seen a lot of artist scenarios, um, you
know, small, medium, large,extra large, superstar, as well
as um old and new.
I mean, the mix has changed alot just because the principal
channels for promoting andreleasing music and you know
change.
Obviously, you know, uh aSpotify and a YouTube music and
Apple Music and Amazon arereally the huge ways to listen
(32:04):
to things and consume it.
But some of these social medianetworks, Instagram and TikTok,
are probably the principal onesto break an artist.
So um, yeah, I would, I would, Imean, it varies case by case,
but that would not seeminaccurate to me.
I think the real thing I'veseen, like at least at the major
label level, um, is that, and Isay this respectfully, I came
(32:25):
out of Sony's system and I stilllove them.
I got a lot of friends atUniversal, but the role has
changed.
So they have to look to some ofthese things you're mentioning
more than they do epic recordsor inner scope to break the
record.
Of course, they're principallythere, and if you're gonna sign
your rights exclusively to them,you're gonna want to hear what
they do.
But yeah, I think that thebudgets are definitely gonna be
(32:46):
tilted more towards digital.
Um, you know, it's funny becauser radio, radio promotion, who's
always been considered a bigpart of the music industry.
You know, rate radio still hasbig audiences.
It's not sexy to talk about, butpeople still drive cars and
listen to radio.
It still has a huge, hugelistening share and market
(33:06):
share.
And so there are still radiopromotion budgets that are out
there, and and um video, by theway, is still important.
Uh very rarely do people talkabout vivo, but vivo is the
record company.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (33:18):
Is it still alive?
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
Vivo is the record company's the main main video
portal that we created inresponse to YouTube.
And it it kind of got sucked inand under YouTube, but 100% it's
still alive.
It may not mean that much as aconsumer thing, but you want to
have a video channel on vivo.
You want to have your videos upthere, and they're still part of
the mix for sure.
So, you know, you want to wantto tour, obviously.
(33:42):
You want to get whether it's AXSor Live Nation or some
independent promoter to helpyou.
You need a booker to do that.
All these things are,particularly the touring stuff,
it's very hard to do becausethey'll look at you and go,
Well, artist A, B, and C, thisis a really cool single, but
what's the size of your socialmedia?
How many butts can you get inseats in my bar?
(34:03):
And here's the minimum.
So it it's it's a very differentlandscape now, um, you know, to
to break through.
Sorry, sorry, throw all this atyou, but that's how it works.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (34:16):
It it is a very our attention spans are
obviously the lowest they'veever been, and every single day
um audiences out there arebombarded with messaging across
TV, across social media, and andeverywhere.
Yeah.
So I'm sure that it's verychallenging for artists, but
this was actually a veryinteresting conversation.
Uh so I almost feel like I knowat this point how I can get into
(34:40):
the industry.
Before we go, I I would love tohear are there any cool stories
that you can share with us withuh any of the celebrities and uh
talent you've managed?
SPEAKER_01 (34:50):
There's a lot.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (34:51):
Um what's the best one?
SPEAKER_01 (34:53):
I don't know if there's a best one, but I'll
tell you that um, let's see, Idid I did Oasis's very first
like online event in the UnitedStates for them.
It was called a chat when I wasrunning AOL music in its early
days, and it was just me and uh,you know, someone on my team, uh
a person named Thea McHugh who'sstill a good friend and does
great things in music for womenand and other interests.
(35:15):
And um, you know, I I reachedout to Oasis's management
because um, you know, they werethey were basically coming to
the US right before they weresuperstars.
This is 1996.
And um so, you know, I thoughtI'd be getting the assistant or
the secretary, but you know, Igot Noel and his girlfriend who
(35:36):
were the managers.
And they're like, sure, we'll dothis.
And so uh, so me and Thea andAOL brought him into a room at a
show they did in DC, and theywalked in and they they spent
the first 20 minutes abusing me,making fun of me, saying, Who is
this guy with glasses?
And and um, and then Liam said,What the hell is this?
(35:57):
Sorry for my language.
And I explained to them, it'sit's gonna be something called a
chat, and you're gonna betalking with your fans.
And so we put the computer onthe floor, cinder block room
behind uh this stage in a placecalled the Patriot Center in DC.
And and Liam sat down andstarted going through it all in
about two minutes, and he waslike, in language I could barely
(36:17):
understand, because they weretalking to me in Liverpool, but
it was some kind of they werepurposely, you know, like
messing with me.
This is great, I could do thisall day.
And we had like, you know,thousands of Brits joining.
And um I walked them out afterwe did the chat onto the the
terrace uh backstage, and therewere hundreds of people waiting
outside the arena.
(36:39):
And I was with Liam and Noel,and um this guy who was an actor
on an MTV show at the timecalled The Real World, guy named
Duncan, Duncan Kennedy.
And I'm not kidding you, everyone of those kids erupted when
they saw this guy, Duncan.
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
I mean, erupted, and it was like they didn't
recognize Noel and Liam.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:01):
Of course, the British kids don't even know
who that is.
SPEAKER_01 (37:03):
Oh, yeah, these are American kids, and it was like
uh I was like, oh my god, thisMTV thing is is really
important.
So that's what happened.
Then they asked me to gobackstage and then hang out with
them back at their hotel room.
But I had a meeting nextmorning, so I couldn't go like
an idiot, so I missed it.
So that's my Oasis story.
I don't know if it's the bestone, but it's true.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:20):
It is an awesome story, and again, it
actually shows me that you werea pioneer back in the day,
thinking ahead and planning forthe digital era.
Um there's a lot of good ones.
SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
There's there's ones with Mick Jagger and Bowie, and
there's a really good one forLou Reed, but maybe next time as
well.
Okay.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:35):
Oh, this is such a teaser.
Well, thank you so much forcoming.
It's been such a pleasure havingyou.
SPEAKER_01 (37:41):
Great coming on.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:42):
And I'm sure you will be back soon.
So please let us know next timeyou're back to New York City.
SPEAKER_01 (37:47):
Thanks so much.
I really appreciate it.
I hope uh maybe you can checkout my podcast too, called
Breaking Down the Biz.
One of these days, maybe we'llhave you on it as well if you
want to come out to LA.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (37:55):
Absolutely.
Breaking down the biz and themoney signal will definitely
collaborate.
SPEAKER_02 (38:00):
Thanks so much.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (38:01):
Thank you.
It's been such a pleasure.
Thank you guys so much forjoining us for another episode
of the Money Signal podcast fromMain Street to Wall Street,
where we talk withentrepreneurs, leaders, and
C-suite about everything youmust know around Main Street and
Wall Street and how theyinteract.
(38:23):
Have a lovely rest of the day.
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