May 25, 2026 • 28 mins
Learn how to negotiate, win deals, and master business psychology with Jonathan Smith of The Black Swan Group, co-author of Fight Less, Win More alongside Chris Voss.
In this episode of the Money Signal Podcast, Jonathan Smith breaks down how to win in high-pressure business situations using proven negotiation tactics, active listening, emotional intelligence, and leadership psychology. From helping CEOs build high-performance teams to coaching entrepreneurs through major negotiations and private equity deals, Jonathan shares insights that can immediately improve communication, negotiation, and decision-making.
This conversation dives deep into business psychology, investor behavior, negotiation strategy, and the mindset behind successful leadership. Jonathan also explains why “when you’re explaining too early, you’re losing,” and how curiosity can become your greatest advantage in negotiations.
🎙 Host:
Tsvetta Kaleynska — Consumer Data & Social Listening Expert
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I identify as an entrepreneur.
(00:01):
I grew up as an entrepreneur.
I'm a negotiation coach with theBlack Swan Group.
I've worked with like 150entrepreneurial businesses to
help them grow their business.
You're gonna be like, well, butI so-and-so's been with me for
five years, so we have to find aseat for them.
I'm like, no, no, no.
Structure first, people second.
What got you to where you are,those folks are not gonna get
you where you want to go.
(00:22):
When you're explaining tooearly, you're losing.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:25):
What makes us a good listener?
How do we listen better?
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
I think good listening starts with staying
curious.
If your intuition is saying thatsomething doesn't make sense,
trust your intuition.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:38):
Welcome to the Money Signal Podcast from
Main Street to Wall Street.
Today I'm honored to be joinedby Jonathan Smith.
Thank you so much for coming.
Good to see you again.
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
Thank you for having me on this beautiful day.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:53):
Yeah, I'm so honored that you're back on the
podcast and now you're actuallyin front of the camera with us.
Uh, I have so many questions foryou, and I don't even know where
to start from and where to divein from.
But um, how about we focus maybeon several kind of like key key
points and key areas for ourinterview today?
I'd love to hear more aboutbasically the psychology aspect.
(01:17):
So, again, of negotiation andhow you um can help us
understand fighting less andwinning more from a
psychological standpoint.
I'd love to learn more about umif we put that in the
perspective of markets andtrading from the financial
angle, uh, what that looks like.
(01:38):
And then thirdly, I'd love tolearn more about your uh book,
Fight Less Win More, which youco-wrote with Chris Voss, who
was also in our podcastrecently.
Um those are kind of like thekey areas for our interview
today.
So why don't we start off withfirstly, um, more about you?
Who is Jonathan Smith and howdid you even get to do what you
(02:00):
do today?
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Well, I identify as an entrepreneur.
I grew up as an entrepreneur,and I'm always open to new
opportunities.
So one of the conversations Iwas having today was about the
Middle East.
I had spent a bunch of time inthe Middle East.
Um my dad invented a product, afloating security barrier called
Whisper Wave.
And uh I use search engineoptimization to actually sell
(02:22):
that product in the Middle East.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (02:24):
Oh, wow.
What countries uh did you didyou live there?
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Um I lived here and he lived there, but I went back
and forth a ton.
So it was UAE and Qatar andSaudi Arabia.
That's awesome.
But given what's going on in thein the Gulf at this point,
understanding their perspectiveand the business environment
there, there's there's a lot ofinterest around that
conversation.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (02:45):
And you realized working on the um
product, basically how to mostlyoptimize and sell it, basically
commercialize that same productand make it a market success.
Is that where you instrumentalin the product?
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
The issue is we couldn't find the end users for
the product.
He invented a product, but thenwe had to figure out product
market fit.
And so in 1999, I taught myselfsearch engine optimization.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (03:10):
Wow, this is even before it was called search
engine optimization, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
And the internet was still been called that, but like
it was a lot easier.
You could do keyword stuffingand things like that at the
time.
But um, I taught myself that,and then what we I ended up
doing was build a long-term,long-tail search engine strategy
that in fact brought people fromall over the world.
And then the truth was the bestmarkets for us were actually in
(03:36):
the Middle East because therewas high-value critical
infrastructure, the money to payfor protecting that
infrastructure, and then uh uhpotential for terrorism.
So this was all post-9-11.
Yeah.
We thought we were gonna do alot of work in the States, and
we did a lot more work in theMiddle East.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (03:55):
Is that what that was the first time you
actually realized that you havethe entrepreneurial spirit in
you?
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
I grew up like at the board table at four years
old with my grandfather.
So I didn't think there was anychoice but to be an
entrepreneur.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (04:10):
And what do you do now?
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Um, today I'm actually uh I well, we wrote
this book, Fight Less Win More.
I'm a negotiation coach with theBlack Swan Group, as well as an
expert EOS implementer.
So I've worked with like 150entrepreneurial businesses to
help them grow their business.
It's like, for example, lastnight we had a deal dinner for a
client who had just sold theprivate equity at the New York
(04:35):
Athletic Club.
So pretty, pretty awesome tohave that successful dinner.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (04:40):
Now not bad perks.
When you work with uh when youwork as an entrepreneur and you
get to meet cool people, yeah.
Some of the perks are you get tomeet cool, uh, you get to sit
down with cool people and makegreat deals, right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
So great deals and then do really interesting
things.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (04:55):
Yeah, and not uh and work your on your own
time and and um just enjoy lifemore.
I always say like working forsomeone is harder because you
have to make them happy andreach their objectives, and
working for yourself um is aninstant path to higher higher
chances of happiness andobviously like more flexibility
in the day-to-day, which I knowis uh quite important for at
(05:19):
least, you know, in in this timeof um in this time of life,
meaning how pat fast-paced lifeis.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
It was interesting because I did work on Wall
Street for a while.
So I worked at 60 Wall Street.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (05:34):
Tell me more.
Hold on, I didn't see that inyour bio.
Where was that?
SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
Like buried somewhere.
So I work work at JP Morganbefore they merged with Chase.
So they were at 60 Wall Street.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (05:44):
What did you do there?
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Uh, I was in Treasury when I was there.
Okay.
And I so I worked there, and oneday I was sitting downstairs,
walking, watching people walkout at five o'clock, and I'm
like, there's no one over 40who's walking out of here at
five o'clock.
Everyone who's over 40 that'scoming out of here at five
o'clock is going to the basementto their limousine.
(06:06):
So I think there's a lot morerisk staying here as an employee
than there was to go figure outmy own thing.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (06:14):
Yeah.
Oh, it sounds like you have somuch experience, like various
experience across industries.
So it's I I mean, you it seemslike if the product that you
started in the Middle East withyour dad, you must have been
very young while managing thatsame product.
And then did your dad ever exit?
Did he sell the company?
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
I left because I it was too hard to work with my dad
at some point, and it was verychallenging to go back and forth
long haul to the Middle East.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (06:42):
Yeah.
And is that when you decided togo into banking and to GP?
SPEAKER_01 (06:46):
No, no.
I was in like in 2011, I leftthe business with my dad, and
then I became an EOS implementerat that point.
What does that mean?
A US implementer?
So, like, I'm the guy who cantalk to the CEO and actually
call them out on their stuff.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (07:02):
So you're the CEO whisperer or the CEO boss?
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
I'm not the boss.
I'm not the boss.
I'm the person they call me.
They call me.
I'm actually Chris Voss's CEOwhisperer, also.
Oh that's actually how I got toknow him.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (07:15):
Okay.
So you're able to basically takefeedback from employees and hear
the signals, see, read the room,understand the situation, come
back to the CEO and help themwith direction and help them
understand better the situation.
SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
I actually help them run their leadership team
meetings quarterly and havebasically negotiate those
conversations.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (07:40):
Wow, that's very interesting.
I mean, uh, just thinking aboutworking with CEOs and how
difficult it must be tounderstand how they think.
And again, like CEOs who areunder tremendous pressure, uh,
reaching specific companyobjectives, there's always
always stress.
So you you must be um you mustbe a very good CEO whisperer.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
And negotiator.
Thank you too.
Like I get to practice.
I actually probably get topractice more active negotiation
than anyone else on the teambecause I do that a couple days
a week with clients.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (08:14):
And yeah, I'm sure it's very hard to negotiate
with CEOs at all times,especially if they're the CEOs
of their own company.
I know I speak from personalexperience.
If um, I always appreciateactually when my team comes and
bosses me around.
I always say that I don't knoweverything and I need help in
trying to understand and piecethe puzzles together.
Uh, but I'm sure that the CEOswho you work with probably
(08:36):
appreciate um a lot of thefeedback and ideas that you
bring to the table.
Now, why don't we why don't wetalk about psychology?
Because it sounds like you work,it's it's a this intersection of
so negotiation andcommunication, right?
It's all very closely tied tooutcomes and the psychology of
how do you have the personagainst you or the person who
(09:00):
are you sitting with, like reachthe outcome that you like them
to get to?
So for with CEOs, not only doyou help them um function better
as a CEO and also portray um thecompany values better to the
company, but how do you how didyou get into basically the
negotiation of the psychologicalpart of the business?
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
Well, when I became this EOS implementer, they did
so I'm a teacher, I teachspecific content, I coach the
team through the content, andthen I facilitate that content.
So that's what I'm supposed tobe.
And then I also say I'm anentrepreneur.
So I'm an entrepreneur on theteam.
And what was happening was like,it wasn't that hard to
(09:50):
understand the technicalities oflike how to run the business.
What the hardest part was to getthe team to work together and
build a high performance teamand to communicate that where I
wasn't telling them what to do.
As a facilitator, I'm anobserver and an intervention.
I'm not like CEO, you should dothis because no one wants to
(10:11):
listen to that.
Like, then I become a threat.
But I can actually get them todo things or one of my one of my
friends says, I'm the person whogets to show you the
possibilities of things that youcan do be beyond what you
thought was possible.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (10:26):
So you sell them the vision, is what you're
saying.
SPEAKER_01 (10:28):
Yeah, I can see the vision that they can't see for
themselves a lot of times.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (10:31):
The that's a great skill, by the way.
Not many people have that.
So if you're able to throughnegotiation and uh again,
psychology, show them the visionand they see it, that's I'm sure
that leads to great successes.
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
Yeah, and then sometimes it leads to, you know,
I'm I usually start, we werejoking last night at New York
Athletic Club that I when Istart with them, I'm like, not
all of you are going to make itthrough this process.
And I can't tell you who's notgonna make it through the
process.
But there's always collateraldamage.
And that collateral damage isjust because that person didn't
belong there in the first place.
(11:06):
Maybe what got you to where youare, those folks are not gonna
get you where you want to go.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (11:10):
And what are those, what are those traits?
How do you, how do you know?
Like when you see the people,like who are the ones who are
not gonna make it?
Are there any specific qualitiesor traits that you see them
right away?
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
Well, first of foremost, like we we say you
have to have right people, rightseats.
So right people is defined ascore values fit.
Do you have the same core valuesof the people work you're
working with?
So there's like you could run abusiness as the on the good
business model or the evilbusiness model.
Both work.
But if your team runs on thegood business model and one
(11:43):
person wants to run on the evilbusiness model, that won't work.
So that's wrong person.
That those behaviors are wrong.
And the other thing is they haveto be in the right seat.
So we have to say you have toget it, want it, and have the
capacity to do the job thatyou've been defined to do.
So um, we have to have rightpeople, right seats, and like I
could just feel it.
I'm in the room, I'm like, thisperson just said they don't
(12:05):
believe in the chain of command.
And this directly to the CEO, Idon't think this is gonna work
in the long run.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (12:13):
So, how do they get to the right seat?
Is the question.
Does it have to do with luck, ordoes it have to do with network,
or does it have to do withtiming?
One of the things I loveexploring, and that question is
rooted in that, is how do weidentify the signals?
So, how do you get to the rightseats?
How do I identify as someone whowould like to be in the right
(12:34):
seat, that this is the rightseat and the best seat?
Does it really have to do withluck or introductions, or does
it have to do with somethingelse?
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
So we say, like if I were, let's say I'm working on
your business with you, I wouldsay, okay, we're gonna build an
accountability chart.
So think of it as an org chartwith a series of roles and
responsibilities under each eachfunction.
And I'm gonna say we gostructure first, people second.
You're gonna be like, well, butI so-and-so's been with me for
five years, so we have to find aseat for them.
(13:03):
I'm like, no, no, no.
Structure first, people second.
So we decide the structure, andthen we decide where the people
fit.
And so sometimes there's not aseat, especially in a small
business, if someone doesn'thave, if there's not a seat for
them, they have to go find aseat that'll work for them
somewhere else.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (13:23):
And when you think of investors, so again,
you work with variety of clientsin a variety of industries uh
through your work with the BlackSwan Group.
I know you guys meet with allkinds of industries, really.
I'd love to understand uh fromyour perspective, um, where does
(13:45):
basically what what parallels doyou see when it comes to
negotiation psychology and highpressure think of investor
psychology?
So you're basically thinking ofyour CEOs that you operate with
and that you're whispering to,let's call it that.
(14:06):
And then you have a variety ofother audiences.
Uh, what is that kind ofparallel intersection between
those two?
If there is one, is there one?
SPEAKER_01 (14:16):
Well, I think one of our laws of negotiation gravity
says that fear is the bigbiggest driver of human decision
making and behavior.
So it goes back to like fear inany case, like in a business,
and then the behavioraleconomics that drive Wall
Street.
So what's driving Wall Street?
(14:36):
Why is oil, why is oil all overthe place, like in terms of the
volatility right now?
Because they don't know what'sgoing to happen with the Straits
of Hormuz.
And you know, it's just notclear what's going to happen.
So that's driving a lot of thevolatility that's happening
right now.
Same thing that happens in abusiness.
A business that has clarityabout where they're going is a
(14:58):
lot less volatile than one who'sworried about, like we say,
keeping heart beating.
Like, are we going to be able tomake payroll next week?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:05):
And I know that a lot of these, um, I mean,
again, parallels that I'mthinking as you're talking is in
finance, finance is data-based,yes, fear-based as well,
obviously, when it when it comesto stock movement, but a lot of
it is data based.
So, how do CEOs, for example,when it comes to understanding
decisions and whether they haveto negotiate, fight less or win
(15:30):
more, do they base decisionsalso on data?
And if so, what are those datasets that they'd look at?
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
Yeah, so it's really interesting when I do
negotiations training, likelet's say with a private equity
firm or an investment managementfirm, or I don't I haven't
worked with people like Peter atthis point, but if I were to
work with those folks.
A lot of times, like the HarvardBusiness School, Wharton
(15:57):
business school folks start withdata.
So they're like, we're gonna gointo negotiation, we're gonna
tell them how it is, and this ishow it works.
And I'm like, well, first ofall, they have to feel heard.
And if they don't feel heard andthey don't feel an emotional
connection to what's going on,you will not have trust-based
vulnerability and you will notbe able to get to the deal and
explain to the your counterpartyour position.
(16:17):
So we say when you're explainingtoo early, you're losing.
And a lot of folks who havelearned to just talk with data
and not deal with the emotionalaspects of the negotiation fail.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (16:31):
For that reason.
Are those lessons that youlearned that you wanted to
implement and fight less, winmore?
Is that how the book was born?
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Okay, so from the data perspective, because you
like data, the book was bornfrom the fact that there's a
book called Traction.
And traction is the book thatEOS is based on that my friend
Gina Wickman wrote.
There's another book called Whatthe Heck is EOS.
So traction is the equivalent oflike never split the difference.
(16:59):
And what the heck is EOS is likethe book for the line people in
your business.
So, like just your averageemployee who don't want to know
exactly how everything works.
So my former my business partnerand very good friend Mark
O'Donnell is the CEO of EOStoday.
And he said, these two bookssell one for one on a go-forward
(17:23):
basis.
And I said, Well, Chris has gotnever split the difference.
It sold five million copies.
Let's go build something that'sadjacent to Never Split the
Difference.
That once people realize thatthe two books belong together,
hopefully we'll sell on aone-for-one basis on a
go-forward basis.
So that was data-driven.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (17:42):
I I love that you based it off of data.
Um, again, one of the keypredictors, in my opinion, for
success is the past.
And again, basing on data fromthe past.
So for you guys built upon thedata set that you had at the
time.
In the book itself, um, can youtalk to us a bit more about
specific skill sets that youknow you or any of our listeners
(18:06):
should have acquired?
Or what are those skill setsspecifically that help us fight
less and win more?
If you had to name a few.
I will tell my children that.
Listening kids, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
So, and ideally, we say there's five levels of
listening, and the idea islistening for the gist is like
I'm talking, you're talking tome, and I'm on my phone, and
then don't think there's any wayI'm listening to you, and I'm
shaking my head.
You're like, no way.
Listening for to hijack is likeyou're talking as soon as you
take a breath.
I jump in and hijack theconversation.
(18:49):
Don't actually talk about whatyou're talking about, but in
fact, take it in my direction.
That doesn't feel good either.
Listening for logic, likeeveryone has a reason for saying
what they're saying.
So we need to start at levelthree, which is lift listening
for logic.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (19:03):
As adults, that's where we start off.
SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
As children, we would we should ideally do that
too, because you know, whenyou're when anyone listens to
hijack, it doesn't feel good.
So the bottom line is there's areason.
Our label we would use is itseems like there's a reason
you're asking, or it seems likethere's a reason you're saying
that.
There is a reason.
We say, stay curious.
Why is the person saying whatthey're saying?
(19:29):
And then the fourth and fifthlevel, fourth level is listening
for logic and emotion.
So emotion behind the logic.
And then the fifth one islistening for their point of
view.
What's their worldview?
Where did they come from?
Why do they think the way theydo?
They may think differently thanyou, but if you can acknowledge
the way they think, they'll bemuch more likely to do a deal
with you.
So it all it starts there.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (19:50):
And how do we become better listeners?
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
Lots of practice and awareness.
We need to be aware of the factthat we we need to listen
better.
I uh oftentimes will write it onthe board.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (20:01):
So, in a world of analytics and data,
what makes us a good listener?
How do we listen better?
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
I think good listening starts with staying
curious, literally being open topossibilities.
We like to say, don't be sure sosure about what deal you take
that you wouldn't take somethingbetter.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (20:24):
That's that's great.
I it kind of got me thinkingactually about something that
Peter says very often.
So I'm sure if he were here, hewould have asked more about
listening in terms of um buy therumor, sell the news is
something he always says, right?
This is, I think, a prettyfamous investor quote.
So how do you listen throughrumors better?
(20:47):
So if you're a trader, I know alot of our audience is finance
focused, um, retail investorsand everyday um people who
invest.
How do you listen through rumorsbetter?
Is there such a such a way to doit?
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
How do you listen we like to say that um your
conscious as processes 40 bitsof of of information per second,
your subconscious processes 20million bits per second.
So part of our negotiation is totrust our intuition.
If your intuition is saying thatsomething doesn't make sense,
(21:26):
trust your intuition.
And and then then we go test itagainst the person we're talking
to.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (21:35):
And in today's world, which is very
driven by AI, what is the humanskill that you think we must do
our best to preserve?
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
Okay, so I've done 400 negotiations using AI for
preparation with extraordinarilyamount of success.
Um so I just started using acouple years ago.
And you asked me how do we dothis?
One of the things I've done isbuilt a series of GPTs.
One of the GPTs will give me thepoint of view of the per person
(22:08):
who we're talking to.
So I literally can feed in theirLinkedIn profile, their bio,
interviews they've had in thenewspaper, the transcripts they
might have from either investorcalls or from podcasts.
And don't give me a sense.
Like literally, in like everysingle meeting I go into, I have
a target brief that says, thisis this person's point of view.
(22:30):
If I don't know them, if Ihaven't met them, I have a
negotiation one sheet, and thatnegotiation one sheet literally
says, here's a summary of thenegotiation because I've I
prompted it.
Here's some accusations auditsyou might consider.
And an accusation audit is a wayof neutralizing the negative
emotion that someone has intheir head when you start the um
(22:52):
conversation.
So think of it as like negativeemotion canceling.
So like noise canceling cancelsout the noise.
This cancels out the negativeemotion.
It takes the negative emotionoff the table.
And it'll tell you things thatyou like, I don't want to say
that.
I don't want to put that intheir head.
You can't put it in their head.
They'll correct you if you'rewrong, unless you're trying to
(23:12):
manipulate them.
It'll give you some labels thatyou should use to label the
scenario.
It'll give you some calibratedquestions that actually say, How
here's some questions you mightwant to ask.
And I'll just give you like alot of times there I have it.
So it'll give you like 10 ofeach example.
And two of them are reallygreat.
And it's like, go use those two.
(23:34):
And the and the other thing,which is a little scary, is
there's a book called Spy theLie.
And it's the techniques that theCIA polygraph examiners use to
try to uncover deception andlying.
So I built a GPT using thosetechniques, and I've actually
used it with public companiesand hedge funds to actually try
(23:56):
and determine who who's wherethere's actually deception.
So if it's a scriptedconversation, it's a lot harder
than if it's a non-scriptedconversation.
Really, we want someone off therecord on the record, but like
unscripted in terms of theirconversation.
And it will give you, it willdemonstrate the intents to
deceive.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (24:15):
And how do you spy the lie?
What are the how if you'respeaking with a person and you
don't know who they are?
Because again, like in yournegotiations, you prepare
heavily, obviously, who you'resitting down with, but how can
you actually spy spot the lie atthe time of the other person
saying it?
SPEAKER_01 (24:34):
So, like it's really interesting.
So these large language models,like, as long as I give it a
framework to look against thetranscript, there's a framework
of 18 different things thatsomeone could say to spy the
lie.
One of them is when someonegives you an overly specific
example uh overly specificanswer.
(24:55):
So, for example, I was workingin a construction firm in my EOS
practice, and someone on theteam said, Well, if someone were
to steal, here's what they woulddo.
No, I did not ask that question.
So that's called like aspontaneous utterance.
Like, why did he just say that?
(25:16):
And then he explained to me howyou would actually steal.
So I said, run when I got out ofthe meeting, I went to the CEO.
I said, Look, we need theauditors to go look into what's
going on with him because Ithink he's stealing.
So million-dollar embezzlementthere.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (25:29):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
That's one example.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (25:31):
Wow, that's fascinating.
So you could pay attention tothe details and yeah, the
patterns and signals that peoplegive you.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
And you just break it down into data.
It is actually data at thatpoint.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (25:42):
Yeah, it's fascinating.
This is so interesting.
Now, you mentioned actuallyanother word that caught my
attention, which wasmanipulation as part of the
negotiation.
Is there truly a manipulationaspect when it comes to being
able to manipulate the personopposite of you?
And if so, do you what do you gofor?
Is it the emotional aspect, likewho they are as a human?
(26:06):
Is it something else?
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
So our version of negotiation is first of all, we
don't lie.
Second of all, we don't we usethe skills for good and not for
evil.
So we don't use it formanipulation.
So, and because people can smellintent, if they feel like
they're getting manipulated,they can smell it.
Like we were, I don't know, overover centuries we've learned how
(26:32):
to deal with that.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (26:33):
And in the context of AI, what you
mentioned to me was also veryinteresting.
Um, what do you think is goingto be the future when it comes
to AI implementation in ourdaily lives?
I mean, do you think that AI cantake over negotiation for us?
SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
Um, so we're working with a group that is dealing
with purchasing.
Uh, and one of the issues is AIcan do bargaining.
So our version of bargaining isbeing at like the market and
going back and forth and backand forth and back and forth
over a commodity.
So it may be able to do some ofthat for sure, but it's not
(27:09):
going to be able to do thehuman-to-human negotiating in
the same way.
But bargaining, for sure, and ifwe're dealing with commodities,
it's happening now.
But um, you know, we shall see.
My the interesting thing is thatthe work that I did, which is
negotiation preparation, is toprepare the human, not not to
prepare for bargaining.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (27:30):
Fascinating.
This has been such a greatconversation, Jonathan.
I can't thank you enough forbeing here.
It's always an honor seeing you.
And for all of our viewers andlisteners, please make sure to
follow Jonathan.
What are your um pages?
SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
So, my my email, my uh website, stay curious JBS.
Stay curious JBS, and all myhandles are stay curious JBS.
So we're trying to get the uhpersonal brand all aligned.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (27:59):
So we're going to make sure we stay very
curious.
And um uh for all of ourlisteners, there is the Fight
Less Win More book as well,which is available um on all
major publishing platforms,including Amazon.
So make sure that you check itout.
And Jonathan, thank you so muchfor being here.
It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
Thanks for the support.
We appreciate it.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (28:21):
Thank you.
This was our episode of theMoney Signal Podcast from Main
Street to Wall Street.
Stay tuned for our next episodeand make sure you follow us on
all of our official social mediapages and check out our website,
moneysignal podcast.com.
I identify as an entrepreneur.
(00:01):
I grew up as an entrepreneur.
I'm a negotiation coach with theBlack Swan Group.
I've worked with like 150entrepreneurial businesses to
help them grow their business.
You're gonna be like, well, butI so-and-so's been with me for
five years, so we have to find aseat for them.
I'm like, no, no, no.
Structure first, people second.
What got you to where you are,those folks are not gonna get
you where you want to go.
(00:22):
When you're explaining tooearly, you're losing.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:25):
What makes us a good listener?
How do we listen better?
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
I think good listening starts with staying
curious.
If your intuition is saying thatsomething doesn't make sense,
trust your intuition.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:38):
Welcome to the Money Signal Podcast from
Main Street to Wall Street.
Today I'm honored to be joinedby Jonathan Smith.
Thank you so much for coming.
Good to see you again.
SPEAKER_01 (00:51):
Thank you for having me on this beautiful day.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (00:53):
Yeah, I'm so honored that you're back on the
podcast and now you're actuallyin front of the camera with us.
Uh, I have so many questions foryou, and I don't even know where
to start from and where to divein from.
But um, how about we focus maybeon several kind of like key key
points and key areas for ourinterview today?
I'd love to hear more aboutbasically the psychology aspect.
(01:17):
So, again, of negotiation andhow you um can help us
understand fighting less andwinning more from a
psychological standpoint.
I'd love to learn more about umif we put that in the
perspective of markets andtrading from the financial
angle, uh, what that looks like.
(01:38):
And then thirdly, I'd love tolearn more about your uh book,
Fight Less Win More, which youco-wrote with Chris Voss, who
was also in our podcastrecently.
Um those are kind of like thekey areas for our interview
today.
So why don't we start off withfirstly, um, more about you?
Who is Jonathan Smith and howdid you even get to do what you
(02:00):
do today?
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
Well, I identify as an entrepreneur.
I grew up as an entrepreneur,and I'm always open to new
opportunities.
So one of the conversations Iwas having today was about the
Middle East.
I had spent a bunch of time inthe Middle East.
Um my dad invented a product, afloating security barrier called
Whisper Wave.
And uh I use search engineoptimization to actually sell
(02:22):
that product in the Middle East.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (02:24):
Oh, wow.
What countries uh did you didyou live there?
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Um I lived here and he lived there, but I went back
and forth a ton.
So it was UAE and Qatar andSaudi Arabia.
That's awesome.
But given what's going on in thein the Gulf at this point,
understanding their perspectiveand the business environment
there, there's there's a lot ofinterest around that
conversation.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (02:45):
And you realized working on the um
product, basically how to mostlyoptimize and sell it, basically
commercialize that same productand make it a market success.
Is that where you instrumentalin the product?
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
The issue is we couldn't find the end users for
the product.
He invented a product, but thenwe had to figure out product
market fit.
And so in 1999, I taught myselfsearch engine optimization.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (03:10):
Wow, this is even before it was called search
engine optimization, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (03:14):
And the internet was still been called that, but like
it was a lot easier.
You could do keyword stuffingand things like that at the
time.
But um, I taught myself that,and then what we I ended up
doing was build a long-term,long-tail search engine strategy
that in fact brought people fromall over the world.
And then the truth was the bestmarkets for us were actually in
(03:36):
the Middle East because therewas high-value critical
infrastructure, the money to payfor protecting that
infrastructure, and then uh uhpotential for terrorism.
So this was all post-9-11.
Yeah.
We thought we were gonna do alot of work in the States, and
we did a lot more work in theMiddle East.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (03:55):
Is that what that was the first time you
actually realized that you havethe entrepreneurial spirit in
you?
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
I grew up like at the board table at four years
old with my grandfather.
So I didn't think there was anychoice but to be an
entrepreneur.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (04:10):
And what do you do now?
SPEAKER_01 (04:12):
Um, today I'm actually uh I well, we wrote
this book, Fight Less Win More.
I'm a negotiation coach with theBlack Swan Group, as well as an
expert EOS implementer.
So I've worked with like 150entrepreneurial businesses to
help them grow their business.
It's like, for example, lastnight we had a deal dinner for a
client who had just sold theprivate equity at the New York
(04:35):
Athletic Club.
So pretty, pretty awesome tohave that successful dinner.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (04:40):
Now not bad perks.
When you work with uh when youwork as an entrepreneur and you
get to meet cool people, yeah.
Some of the perks are you get tomeet cool, uh, you get to sit
down with cool people and makegreat deals, right?
SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
So great deals and then do really interesting
things.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (04:55):
Yeah, and not uh and work your on your own
time and and um just enjoy lifemore.
I always say like working forsomeone is harder because you
have to make them happy andreach their objectives, and
working for yourself um is aninstant path to higher higher
chances of happiness andobviously like more flexibility
in the day-to-day, which I knowis uh quite important for at
(05:19):
least, you know, in in this timeof um in this time of life,
meaning how pat fast-paced lifeis.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
It was interesting because I did work on Wall
Street for a while.
So I worked at 60 Wall Street.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (05:34):
Tell me more.
Hold on, I didn't see that inyour bio.
Where was that?
SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
Like buried somewhere.
So I work work at JP Morganbefore they merged with Chase.
So they were at 60 Wall Street.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (05:44):
What did you do there?
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
Uh, I was in Treasury when I was there.
Okay.
And I so I worked there, and oneday I was sitting downstairs,
walking, watching people walkout at five o'clock, and I'm
like, there's no one over 40who's walking out of here at
five o'clock.
Everyone who's over 40 that'scoming out of here at five
o'clock is going to the basementto their limousine.
(06:06):
So I think there's a lot morerisk staying here as an employee
than there was to go figure outmy own thing.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (06:14):
Yeah.
Oh, it sounds like you have somuch experience, like various
experience across industries.
So it's I I mean, you it seemslike if the product that you
started in the Middle East withyour dad, you must have been
very young while managing thatsame product.
And then did your dad ever exit?
Did he sell the company?
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
I left because I it was too hard to work with my dad
at some point, and it was verychallenging to go back and forth
long haul to the Middle East.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (06:42):
Yeah.
And is that when you decided togo into banking and to GP?
SPEAKER_01 (06:46):
No, no.
I was in like in 2011, I leftthe business with my dad, and
then I became an EOS implementerat that point.
What does that mean?
A US implementer?
So, like, I'm the guy who cantalk to the CEO and actually
call them out on their stuff.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (07:02):
So you're the CEO whisperer or the CEO boss?
SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
I'm not the boss.
I'm not the boss.
I'm the person they call me.
They call me.
I'm actually Chris Voss's CEOwhisperer, also.
Oh that's actually how I got toknow him.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (07:15):
Okay.
So you're able to basically takefeedback from employees and hear
the signals, see, read the room,understand the situation, come
back to the CEO and help themwith direction and help them
understand better the situation.
SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
I actually help them run their leadership team
meetings quarterly and havebasically negotiate those
conversations.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (07:40):
Wow, that's very interesting.
I mean, uh, just thinking aboutworking with CEOs and how
difficult it must be tounderstand how they think.
And again, like CEOs who areunder tremendous pressure, uh,
reaching specific companyobjectives, there's always
always stress.
So you you must be um you mustbe a very good CEO whisperer.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
And negotiator.
Thank you too.
Like I get to practice.
I actually probably get topractice more active negotiation
than anyone else on the teambecause I do that a couple days
a week with clients.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (08:14):
And yeah, I'm sure it's very hard to negotiate
with CEOs at all times,especially if they're the CEOs
of their own company.
I know I speak from personalexperience.
If um, I always appreciateactually when my team comes and
bosses me around.
I always say that I don't knoweverything and I need help in
trying to understand and piecethe puzzles together.
Uh, but I'm sure that the CEOswho you work with probably
(08:36):
appreciate um a lot of thefeedback and ideas that you
bring to the table.
Now, why don't we why don't wetalk about psychology?
Because it sounds like you work,it's it's a this intersection of
so negotiation andcommunication, right?
It's all very closely tied tooutcomes and the psychology of
how do you have the personagainst you or the person who
(09:00):
are you sitting with, like reachthe outcome that you like them
to get to?
So for with CEOs, not only doyou help them um function better
as a CEO and also portray um thecompany values better to the
company, but how do you how didyou get into basically the
negotiation of the psychologicalpart of the business?
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
Well, when I became this EOS implementer, they did
so I'm a teacher, I teachspecific content, I coach the
team through the content, andthen I facilitate that content.
So that's what I'm supposed tobe.
And then I also say I'm anentrepreneur.
So I'm an entrepreneur on theteam.
And what was happening was like,it wasn't that hard to
(09:50):
understand the technicalities oflike how to run the business.
What the hardest part was to getthe team to work together and
build a high performance teamand to communicate that where I
wasn't telling them what to do.
As a facilitator, I'm anobserver and an intervention.
I'm not like CEO, you should dothis because no one wants to
(10:11):
listen to that.
Like, then I become a threat.
But I can actually get them todo things or one of my one of my
friends says, I'm the person whogets to show you the
possibilities of things that youcan do be beyond what you
thought was possible.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (10:26):
So you sell them the vision, is what you're
saying.
SPEAKER_01 (10:28):
Yeah, I can see the vision that they can't see for
themselves a lot of times.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (10:31):
The that's a great skill, by the way.
Not many people have that.
So if you're able to throughnegotiation and uh again,
psychology, show them the visionand they see it, that's I'm sure
that leads to great successes.
SPEAKER_01 (10:45):
Yeah, and then sometimes it leads to, you know,
I'm I usually start, we werejoking last night at New York
Athletic Club that I when Istart with them, I'm like, not
all of you are going to make itthrough this process.
And I can't tell you who's notgonna make it through the
process.
But there's always collateraldamage.
And that collateral damage isjust because that person didn't
belong there in the first place.
(11:06):
Maybe what got you to where youare, those folks are not gonna
get you where you want to go.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (11:10):
And what are those, what are those traits?
How do you, how do you know?
Like when you see the people,like who are the ones who are
not gonna make it?
Are there any specific qualitiesor traits that you see them
right away?
SPEAKER_01 (11:21):
Well, first of foremost, like we we say you
have to have right people, rightseats.
So right people is defined ascore values fit.
Do you have the same core valuesof the people work you're
working with?
So there's like you could run abusiness as the on the good
business model or the evilbusiness model.
Both work.
But if your team runs on thegood business model and one
(11:43):
person wants to run on the evilbusiness model, that won't work.
So that's wrong person.
That those behaviors are wrong.
And the other thing is they haveto be in the right seat.
So we have to say you have toget it, want it, and have the
capacity to do the job thatyou've been defined to do.
So um, we have to have rightpeople, right seats, and like I
could just feel it.
I'm in the room, I'm like, thisperson just said they don't
(12:05):
believe in the chain of command.
And this directly to the CEO, Idon't think this is gonna work
in the long run.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (12:13):
So, how do they get to the right seat?
Is the question.
Does it have to do with luck, ordoes it have to do with network,
or does it have to do withtiming?
One of the things I loveexploring, and that question is
rooted in that, is how do weidentify the signals?
So, how do you get to the rightseats?
How do I identify as someone whowould like to be in the right
(12:34):
seat, that this is the rightseat and the best seat?
Does it really have to do withluck or introductions, or does
it have to do with somethingelse?
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
So we say, like if I were, let's say I'm working on
your business with you, I wouldsay, okay, we're gonna build an
accountability chart.
So think of it as an org chartwith a series of roles and
responsibilities under each eachfunction.
And I'm gonna say we gostructure first, people second.
You're gonna be like, well, butI so-and-so's been with me for
five years, so we have to find aseat for them.
(13:03):
I'm like, no, no, no.
Structure first, people second.
So we decide the structure, andthen we decide where the people
fit.
And so sometimes there's not aseat, especially in a small
business, if someone doesn'thave, if there's not a seat for
them, they have to go find aseat that'll work for them
somewhere else.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (13:23):
And when you think of investors, so again,
you work with variety of clientsin a variety of industries uh
through your work with the BlackSwan Group.
I know you guys meet with allkinds of industries, really.
I'd love to understand uh fromyour perspective, um, where does
(13:45):
basically what what parallels doyou see when it comes to
negotiation psychology and highpressure think of investor
psychology?
So you're basically thinking ofyour CEOs that you operate with
and that you're whispering to,let's call it that.
(14:06):
And then you have a variety ofother audiences.
Uh, what is that kind ofparallel intersection between
those two?
If there is one, is there one?
SPEAKER_01 (14:16):
Well, I think one of our laws of negotiation gravity
says that fear is the bigbiggest driver of human decision
making and behavior.
So it goes back to like fear inany case, like in a business,
and then the behavioraleconomics that drive Wall
Street.
So what's driving Wall Street?
(14:36):
Why is oil, why is oil all overthe place, like in terms of the
volatility right now?
Because they don't know what'sgoing to happen with the Straits
of Hormuz.
And you know, it's just notclear what's going to happen.
So that's driving a lot of thevolatility that's happening
right now.
Same thing that happens in abusiness.
A business that has clarityabout where they're going is a
(14:58):
lot less volatile than one who'sworried about, like we say,
keeping heart beating.
Like, are we going to be able tomake payroll next week?
Tsvetta Kaleynska (15:05):
And I know that a lot of these, um, I mean,
again, parallels that I'mthinking as you're talking is in
finance, finance is data-based,yes, fear-based as well,
obviously, when it when it comesto stock movement, but a lot of
it is data based.
So, how do CEOs, for example,when it comes to understanding
decisions and whether they haveto negotiate, fight less or win
(15:30):
more, do they base decisionsalso on data?
And if so, what are those datasets that they'd look at?
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
Yeah, so it's really interesting when I do
negotiations training, likelet's say with a private equity
firm or an investment managementfirm, or I don't I haven't
worked with people like Peter atthis point, but if I were to
work with those folks.
A lot of times, like the HarvardBusiness School, Wharton
(15:57):
business school folks start withdata.
So they're like, we're gonna gointo negotiation, we're gonna
tell them how it is, and this ishow it works.
And I'm like, well, first ofall, they have to feel heard.
And if they don't feel heard andthey don't feel an emotional
connection to what's going on,you will not have trust-based
vulnerability and you will notbe able to get to the deal and
explain to the your counterpartyour position.
(16:17):
So we say when you're explainingtoo early, you're losing.
And a lot of folks who havelearned to just talk with data
and not deal with the emotionalaspects of the negotiation fail.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (16:31):
For that reason.
Are those lessons that youlearned that you wanted to
implement and fight less, winmore?
Is that how the book was born?
SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Okay, so from the data perspective, because you
like data, the book was bornfrom the fact that there's a
book called Traction.
And traction is the book thatEOS is based on that my friend
Gina Wickman wrote.
There's another book called Whatthe Heck is EOS.
So traction is the equivalent oflike never split the difference.
(16:59):
And what the heck is EOS is likethe book for the line people in
your business.
So, like just your averageemployee who don't want to know
exactly how everything works.
So my former my business partnerand very good friend Mark
O'Donnell is the CEO of EOStoday.
And he said, these two bookssell one for one on a go-forward
(17:23):
basis.
And I said, Well, Chris has gotnever split the difference.
It sold five million copies.
Let's go build something that'sadjacent to Never Split the
Difference.
That once people realize thatthe two books belong together,
hopefully we'll sell on aone-for-one basis on a
go-forward basis.
So that was data-driven.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (17:42):
I I love that you based it off of data.
Um, again, one of the keypredictors, in my opinion, for
success is the past.
And again, basing on data fromthe past.
So for you guys built upon thedata set that you had at the
time.
In the book itself, um, can youtalk to us a bit more about
specific skill sets that youknow you or any of our listeners
(18:06):
should have acquired?
Or what are those skill setsspecifically that help us fight
less and win more?
If you had to name a few.
I will tell my children that.
Listening kids, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
So, and ideally, we say there's five levels of
listening, and the idea islistening for the gist is like
I'm talking, you're talking tome, and I'm on my phone, and
then don't think there's any wayI'm listening to you, and I'm
shaking my head.
You're like, no way.
Listening for to hijack is likeyou're talking as soon as you
take a breath.
I jump in and hijack theconversation.
(18:49):
Don't actually talk about whatyou're talking about, but in
fact, take it in my direction.
That doesn't feel good either.
Listening for logic, likeeveryone has a reason for saying
what they're saying.
So we need to start at levelthree, which is lift listening
for logic.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (19:03):
As adults, that's where we start off.
SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
As children, we would we should ideally do that
too, because you know, whenyou're when anyone listens to
hijack, it doesn't feel good.
So the bottom line is there's areason.
Our label we would use is itseems like there's a reason
you're asking, or it seems likethere's a reason you're saying
that.
There is a reason.
We say, stay curious.
Why is the person saying whatthey're saying?
(19:29):
And then the fourth and fifthlevel, fourth level is listening
for logic and emotion.
So emotion behind the logic.
And then the fifth one islistening for their point of
view.
What's their worldview?
Where did they come from?
Why do they think the way theydo?
They may think differently thanyou, but if you can acknowledge
the way they think, they'll bemuch more likely to do a deal
with you.
So it all it starts there.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (19:50):
And how do we become better listeners?
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
Lots of practice and awareness.
We need to be aware of the factthat we we need to listen
better.
I uh oftentimes will write it onthe board.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (20:01):
So, in a world of analytics and data,
what makes us a good listener?
How do we listen better?
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
I think good listening starts with staying
curious, literally being open topossibilities.
We like to say, don't be sure sosure about what deal you take
that you wouldn't take somethingbetter.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (20:24):
That's that's great.
I it kind of got me thinkingactually about something that
Peter says very often.
So I'm sure if he were here, hewould have asked more about
listening in terms of um buy therumor, sell the news is
something he always says, right?
This is, I think, a prettyfamous investor quote.
So how do you listen throughrumors better?
(20:47):
So if you're a trader, I know alot of our audience is finance
focused, um, retail investorsand everyday um people who
invest.
How do you listen through rumorsbetter?
Is there such a such a way to doit?
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
How do you listen we like to say that um your
conscious as processes 40 bitsof of of information per second,
your subconscious processes 20million bits per second.
So part of our negotiation is totrust our intuition.
If your intuition is saying thatsomething doesn't make sense,
(21:26):
trust your intuition.
And and then then we go test itagainst the person we're talking
to.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (21:35):
And in today's world, which is very
driven by AI, what is the humanskill that you think we must do
our best to preserve?
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
Okay, so I've done 400 negotiations using AI for
preparation with extraordinarilyamount of success.
Um so I just started using acouple years ago.
And you asked me how do we dothis?
One of the things I've done isbuilt a series of GPTs.
One of the GPTs will give me thepoint of view of the per person
(22:08):
who we're talking to.
So I literally can feed in theirLinkedIn profile, their bio,
interviews they've had in thenewspaper, the transcripts they
might have from either investorcalls or from podcasts.
And don't give me a sense.
Like literally, in like everysingle meeting I go into, I have
a target brief that says, thisis this person's point of view.
(22:30):
If I don't know them, if Ihaven't met them, I have a
negotiation one sheet, and thatnegotiation one sheet literally
says, here's a summary of thenegotiation because I've I
prompted it.
Here's some accusations auditsyou might consider.
And an accusation audit is a wayof neutralizing the negative
emotion that someone has intheir head when you start the um
(22:52):
conversation.
So think of it as like negativeemotion canceling.
So like noise canceling cancelsout the noise.
This cancels out the negativeemotion.
It takes the negative emotionoff the table.
And it'll tell you things thatyou like, I don't want to say
that.
I don't want to put that intheir head.
You can't put it in their head.
They'll correct you if you'rewrong, unless you're trying to
(23:12):
manipulate them.
It'll give you some labels thatyou should use to label the
scenario.
It'll give you some calibratedquestions that actually say, How
here's some questions you mightwant to ask.
And I'll just give you like alot of times there I have it.
So it'll give you like 10 ofeach example.
And two of them are reallygreat.
And it's like, go use those two.
(23:34):
And the and the other thing,which is a little scary, is
there's a book called Spy theLie.
And it's the techniques that theCIA polygraph examiners use to
try to uncover deception andlying.
So I built a GPT using thosetechniques, and I've actually
used it with public companiesand hedge funds to actually try
(23:56):
and determine who who's wherethere's actually deception.
So if it's a scriptedconversation, it's a lot harder
than if it's a non-scriptedconversation.
Really, we want someone off therecord on the record, but like
unscripted in terms of theirconversation.
And it will give you, it willdemonstrate the intents to
deceive.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (24:15):
And how do you spy the lie?
What are the how if you'respeaking with a person and you
don't know who they are?
Because again, like in yournegotiations, you prepare
heavily, obviously, who you'resitting down with, but how can
you actually spy spot the lie atthe time of the other person
saying it?
SPEAKER_01 (24:34):
So, like it's really interesting.
So these large language models,like, as long as I give it a
framework to look against thetranscript, there's a framework
of 18 different things thatsomeone could say to spy the
lie.
One of them is when someonegives you an overly specific
example uh overly specificanswer.
(24:55):
So, for example, I was workingin a construction firm in my EOS
practice, and someone on theteam said, Well, if someone were
to steal, here's what they woulddo.
No, I did not ask that question.
So that's called like aspontaneous utterance.
Like, why did he just say that?
(25:16):
And then he explained to me howyou would actually steal.
So I said, run when I got out ofthe meeting, I went to the CEO.
I said, Look, we need theauditors to go look into what's
going on with him because Ithink he's stealing.
So million-dollar embezzlementthere.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (25:29):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
That's one example.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (25:31):
Wow, that's fascinating.
So you could pay attention tothe details and yeah, the
patterns and signals that peoplegive you.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
And you just break it down into data.
It is actually data at thatpoint.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (25:42):
Yeah, it's fascinating.
This is so interesting.
Now, you mentioned actuallyanother word that caught my
attention, which wasmanipulation as part of the
negotiation.
Is there truly a manipulationaspect when it comes to being
able to manipulate the personopposite of you?
And if so, do you what do you gofor?
Is it the emotional aspect, likewho they are as a human?
(26:06):
Is it something else?
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
So our version of negotiation is first of all, we
don't lie.
Second of all, we don't we usethe skills for good and not for
evil.
So we don't use it formanipulation.
So, and because people can smellintent, if they feel like
they're getting manipulated,they can smell it.
Like we were, I don't know, overover centuries we've learned how
(26:32):
to deal with that.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (26:33):
And in the context of AI, what you
mentioned to me was also veryinteresting.
Um, what do you think is goingto be the future when it comes
to AI implementation in ourdaily lives?
I mean, do you think that AI cantake over negotiation for us?
SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
Um, so we're working with a group that is dealing
with purchasing.
Uh, and one of the issues is AIcan do bargaining.
So our version of bargaining isbeing at like the market and
going back and forth and backand forth and back and forth
over a commodity.
So it may be able to do some ofthat for sure, but it's not
(27:09):
going to be able to do thehuman-to-human negotiating in
the same way.
But bargaining, for sure, and ifwe're dealing with commodities,
it's happening now.
But um, you know, we shall see.
My the interesting thing is thatthe work that I did, which is
negotiation preparation, is toprepare the human, not not to
prepare for bargaining.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (27:30):
Fascinating.
This has been such a greatconversation, Jonathan.
I can't thank you enough forbeing here.
It's always an honor seeing you.
And for all of our viewers andlisteners, please make sure to
follow Jonathan.
What are your um pages?
SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
So, my my email, my uh website, stay curious JBS.
Stay curious JBS, and all myhandles are stay curious JBS.
So we're trying to get the uhpersonal brand all aligned.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (27:59):
So we're going to make sure we stay very
curious.
And um uh for all of ourlisteners, there is the Fight
Less Win More book as well,which is available um on all
major publishing platforms,including Amazon.
So make sure that you check itout.
And Jonathan, thank you so muchfor being here.
It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (28:19):
Thanks for the support.
We appreciate it.
Tsvetta Kaleynska (28:21):
Thank you.
This was our episode of theMoney Signal Podcast from Main
Street to Wall Street.
Stay tuned for our next episodeand make sure you follow us on
all of our official social mediapages and check out our website,
moneysignal podcast.com.
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