Episode 100 - Denholm Harding - The Musicians Mentor

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome tothe Musicians Mentor Podcast.
As usual, I'm your host, Travis Mark, and I'm stoked to say that
we are officially on episode 100.
And what better way to celebratesuch a milestone in this show's
journey than speaking to South African music legend Just

(00:30):
Ginger's own Denim Harding? As regular listeners to the show
might realise by now, I grew up in Johannesburg, South Africa,
and the thing that I remember sodistinctively about growing up
in that country, especially as Istarted to get into music, was

(00:50):
the name Just Ginger. They were probably the first
local band that I ever knew to go platinum, to sell out shows
internationally and to play withmusical legends that I just
didn't think was possible for a local band at the time.
So Just Ginger have always held a very special place in my

(01:10):
heart, as I'm sure they have foranybody who grew up with them or
continue to listen to them. They aren't a lot of interviews
with Denim out there. So I reached out to him in hopes
that he might join me for episode 100, and he was humble
enough to take me up on my offer.
We talk about quite a lot in this interview, but just to

(01:30):
paint a little bit of a picture about Denim and his journey thus
far, basically, he started playing music as a kid.
Both his parents were musicians.He won quite a huge national
talent show. From there he started playing
alongside a lot of South Africanlegends and was then headhunted
to be in the KTV band. If you don't know what that is,

(01:50):
it's okay. We do talk about it and I try
and explain it during the courseof this interview, but this was
a huge deal. From there, he joins the
legendary South African band Just Ginger very shortly after
their debut record. The debut record is still one of
the biggest selling albums in that country and if you've never
heard it, I can't recommend it enough.

(02:12):
I've linked information to the band in the show notes of the
show, but Long story short, JustGinger end up reaching heights
that many South African musicians had never seen at that
point. They get signed by a bunch of
labels, they tour the world and relocate several times, endure a
lot of ups and downs and eventually end up back in South

(02:33):
Africa where Denim now works as a producer.
Just Ginger still continue to dovery well, but as a producer,
Denim has also forged a new path, working alongside other
big name artists like Prime Circle and JC Clegg.
I know I'm rambling on a lot, but this guy really was one of
my childhood heroes so I'm so happy to have him.

(02:54):
For episode 100, we're going to jump straight into this
interview, but as usual before we do, please do remember that
we are on YouTube now, so any subscription is greatly
appreciated. Also, don't forget to check out
our to affiliation with the lovely folks over at Sound
Brenner. We got a few new things coming
up, so please do look out for those.

(03:14):
But for now, ladies and gentlemen, please help me.
Welcome Just Ginger, bassist, multi instrumentalist, producer
and songwriter Denim Harding. All righty.
Well, we've been talking for a couple minutes, but I'm sitting
here with South African legendary musician slash
producer Denim Harding, most notably famous for being in the

(03:37):
band Just Ginger, one of the most successful South African
bands in history. He's now a producer and a
musician still in South Africa. He lives in the East Ranch,
Johannesburg. I, as usual, will do a big up
intro post our interview. Denim, you are episode 100, no
pressure. What I'm going to do is get you

(03:59):
to please give my listeners A brief introduction, a bullet
point introduction, if you will,of who Denim Harding is, so that
my listeners get a better understanding of your mindset
during today's conversation. Oh man, well, I wish I didn't
know. As your 100th episode, it's a

(04:21):
great honour and a crippling responsibility.
I'm a little bit of anxiety now.I hope I live up to it and I
hope I'm worthy of that. But we're just going to have a
great conversation and a bullet point introduction to myself.
Just I'm a musician born out of two musicians.

(04:42):
Both my parents are incredible musicians.
And so I kind of won the geneticjackpot lottery there and, and
and and equally kind and generous and just good hearted
parents couldn't have wished forbetter and just really supported

(05:02):
me in my journey as a musician. So everything that came from
that came from that had an earlystart.
I was on a national televised all ages talent show when I was
five years old and I toured the country with a lot of notable
big artists when I was 6. And so I just had AI, just got

(05:24):
into it really early and found my way to Johannesburg.
When I was a teenager, I was headhunted by a television
company called Emnet in South Africa and I was head under to
be the drummer for a band calledthe KTV Kids.
And KTV was like a children's channel.
So just did touring and gigging non-stop and found my way.

(05:49):
After that, I, I, I studied drumming to a, you know, a high
tuition level and reached a point where I was like, OK,
well, you know, I was 18 and nowI had like the drumming and
percussion diploma, but they weren't really gigs.
And so another band was like, we're looking for a bass player.
And I was like, well, it's got 4strings, how hard can it be?

(06:11):
And so silly of me to think thatit it wasn't I'm I'm still
trying to master it all these years later.
But jumped in the deep end, got a bass and just a couple of
months later was in the biggest band in our home country at the
time, just Ginger and have been touring and living abroad with

(06:32):
them ever since and moved back to South Africa in 2010.
As a multi instrumentalist I waslike well I can only play one
instrument at a time technicallyon stage but in studio I can be
the band. So fell into production and that
has been ever since my, my, my muse that I chase and and keeps

(06:55):
me up at night. And so and my production led me
to work with just artists. I never thought I'd I'd have the
the true deep lifelong honour toto to be in a room with
Nevermind to help navigate the waters of a career building

(07:16):
moments in the you know, Giants produced Johnny Clegg's last
album, Jessie Clegg, his son, obviously prolific, incredible
artist, big rock band here primecircle the two of their records
and just many, many, many, many others and the voice and just an
absolute calmed life that I I I don't really understand how it's

(07:37):
happened or why it's happened, but continuously try and just
like justify it in in a in a in whatever way I can.
So I don't know if that's bulletpoint, but that's kind of a
rough summary of of what led us to episode 100.
And I'm a little bit perplexed as to how I'm even on here.
But I'm I'm very grateful and it's a it's a, it's a true
honor. Thank you.

(07:57):
Thank you. And you're going to have more to
offer than than I think you evenrealize.
You're one of the greatest musicians to come out of our
home country, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, you touched on a lot of points that we'll kind of dig a
little deeper on starting with. So you mentioned that your folks
were both musicians. What exactly made the music bug

(08:21):
bite? Were they just constantly
actually like playing music around the house?
Or were they playing music that drew you to it that you were
kind of interested to find out more?
That's actually a profound question because there are
different things and and I haven't actually tried to

(08:42):
compartmentalize it. I think both.
I think that my parents were were well versed.
My dad is a drummer and a singerand my my mom's a pianist and
keyboard player and she runs a still runs a music Academy.
So they, they had very multiple projects that they would play

(09:04):
in, in Cape Town. They were the backing band of
like a like a touring circuits of country festivals called keep
it country and and then the nextnight my dad would be playing a
jazz gig in town or do a residency.
When the night I was born, my father started a six nights a
week residency in like a five star restaurant doing like a

(09:27):
trio jazz thing. So, and then that also had like,
like just a dance events, wedding band.
So my, my formative years were spent either in their rehearsal
room, like drawing, you know, coloring in books, but like, you
know, having fun, but like listening to them practice.

(09:48):
So like in the old days with a cassette recorder, you know, or
it would be vinyl and then they could copy it to cassette and
then they'd press play and like,you know, to be Level 42 or
someone and that like, OK, what are those chords?
And my mom had like, you know, the DX7 keyboard and like not,
you know, it's not like in the days of plug in fatigue where,
you know, the keyboard you bought hopefully had the sound

(10:11):
that the artist that you're trying to sound like ads and
they probably use the a Jupiter or a Juno or a prophet.
And you're, you've got a something else.
So, you know, and you like try and do your thing and the
creativity that came out. And this is something that we
all see now when we watch interviews and you know, we,
we've got YouTube and we've got everything.
But when you watch people go, the limitation is where is where

(10:34):
actual creativity is. Creativity isn't because you
have a gazillion options and choice city creativity comes
from, I've got a, I've got a, I've got a kettle, I've got a
mop and I've got a lava lamp. Like what can I get out of this?
You know, and what I saw the music that they made and then
the sophisticated ear of like, like my father would tell me

(11:01):
that he would come home from a, you know, a gig at like 2:00 in
the morning and then take over the night shift when I was a
newborn. And the only thing that would
make me stop kicking the cut wasOscar Peterson.
So beautiful. Like, yeah, my dad had like, I
think 80 or 90 Oscar Peterson records.
Just Oscar Peterson, you know, and like such a ridiculous full
circle moment. Like, same as you, like, you

(11:22):
know, with the band. I, I lived in the UK for a few
years and ended up seeing Neils Henning Ostrid Peterson, who was
Oscars bass player at Ronnie Scott's.
And like, just some music has really, you know, been woven
into the, the, the tapestry and the fabric of, you know, it's,
it's why there's such a woeful tale about our industry and,

(11:44):
and, and our heroes. Because if you do a job and
you're not very good at it and someone says, Hey, you're not
good at, or you did a bad job orwhatever negative thing they
want to say, you can go, OK. And then you lock up at 5:00 and
you go home and you have dinner with your spouse or hang with
your kids or go out with your friends.

(12:04):
And that's who you are. The job is what you do.
But with us, music is who we are.
So when someone says you're not great or you didn't, you went, I
don't like that. Whatever song sound, whatever is
an extension of you, it's such apersonal thing, which is why a
lot of musicians struggle with the peaks and the troughs of

(12:28):
your loved and and despised, sometimes in the same hour.
So when we're all too young to be burned by that, it's just
fun. And I think that that's where a
lot of upbringing matters because sometimes a parent, not
intentionally obviously, but sometimes a parent can

(12:50):
subconsciously imprint like a personal limitation onto a kid
that's still just having fun or just figuring it out or just
even seeing if it's like, I think you said, like when did
the bug bite or how did the bug bite?
Whereas like in my case, my parents, even though they were
musicians, they didn't let on that what I was doing was

(13:12):
difficult. They didn't let me think that it
was difficult, even though it probably was, you know, like as
a kid trying to with my mom's netting needles, trying to like
play along to chicory or something.
It's not normal maybe or, or like common, shall I say.
But it was never like, oh, you know, you should listen to that
record. That's, that's way too advanced.
You know, it was never sort of imprinted on me in that fashion.

(13:33):
So I, I don't know if there's a formula to extract from any of
that, but that just so happens to be how it how it works.
For me. It was just this magical time of
like, passion, sort of being thefacilitator to, I guess,
practice because when you're that young and it's just fun and

(13:55):
you and you just can't stop doing it because you have all
the energy in the world and the wonderment.
Spending a whole day playing, playing with music is a whole
day of practicing. Yeah.
As adults, who's got 10 hours topractice?
But as a kid all day long, you know?
When I was a kid, I remember oneof the instructors I had, and

(14:17):
I've spoken about this on the podcast before, I was at the
National School of the Arts. And so he would be like, he
would sit us all down and be like, you guys need to hey now
and play later. And at the time, I never really
understood what that meant, you know, But as I get older, it's
so clear. It's so clear because like, you
know, people say, oh, more responsibilities are going to

(14:38):
come and this and that, this andthat.
And they do. And those days of sitting with
whatever instruments, a keyboard, a drum kit, the
guitar, working on a doll, whatever it is, and just sitting
there going, I'm going to just explore for 10 hours today.
Those days are like, I mean, so yeah, you, you get them, but
they, they just not like when you're 1516171813, whatever it

(15:03):
is that that's such a golden time.
If you if you're interested in music, it can be incredible.
That's how that's where you get your 10,000 hours that everybody
always talks about. Like, man, if I could find the
time to practice how I used to practice, wow, I just I could, I
could dream of what I could achieve, you know?
Anyway, enough about me. Let's talk about drumming.

(15:25):
So you said Chick Corea. I mean, the fact you're drumming
along with Mitzi Needles to Chick Corea is quite something.
They were definitely easier options.
But yeah, you'll end up on this talent show.
You get headhunted by M Net. For the listeners wondering what
M Net is, it's basically S Africans equivalents of like BBC
in the UK or like NBCCBS here inthe States, that kind of thing.

(15:48):
Probably the biggest in the country and, or at least it was,
I don't know about now. So that call comes through and
you land up on the KTV band. Again for listeners wondering,
KTV was the biggest, biggest children's channel that I can
remember. I mean, like if you weren't
watching KTV as a kid, you were living under a rock.

(16:11):
It's basically like, I guess it's PBS here and not quite
Cartoon Network, but but, but maybe carts Cartoon Network.
I mean, they work these interactions between the
cartoons, right? Great, great initiative.
So OK, I'm going to Fast forwardhere because we've touched on it
both with your intro and now while I'm asking this question.

(16:31):
So how does it go from I'm playing on this huge network to,
OK, I'm going to go study drums to a higher level and try and
turn this in a career? Was that a conscious decision?
Or was it a matter of, well, you'd seen your parents do this,
so this was just normal for you,and you were kind of just living

(16:52):
a life that you thought was normal?
In Just Ginger, we we always joke we're actually about to
embark on we're we're plotting out.
I don't know when this is going to come out, but there is in the
works of it's been 30 years since our debut, if you want to

(17:15):
call it groundbreaking first record.
And so is things in the works happening around that.
And so when we're on stage, likewe'll, we'll we'll often joke
that, you know, this, this song is is almost 30 years old and
which is weird because we're we're only just all in our 30s.
So we don't quite know how the map, you know, like so, but so

(17:44):
trying to remember my teens was just the other day.
But if I can remember, I think what happened is maybe like a
natural progression of small interactions that leads.
To. Like you just chasing the tail
of the rabbit and you're not really trying to get into the
mentality of the rabbit. Why is it dodging left?

(18:05):
And you, you're just trying to catch it.
You just because you're you're akid, you know.
So I think that potentially it would have been like a
combination of like every time you're at a gig and someone's
like, you know, you should checkout this band, you should play
with these guys or you should dothat.
Or my, my tutor at the time, thegreat, incredible Andre Luke,
who, who very, very sadly passedrecently.

(18:28):
You know, I, I, I probably was, was already going to lessons and
he was like, you know, you should check this next thing out
and we should get you some Berkeley curriculum and we
should get some, you know, and, and, and so you're just chasing
the tail. You're like, what else?
What next? You know, I would say that at
that age and it was just passiondriven.

(18:49):
It was just, well, I, I'm, I, I love the challenge.
And the challenge wasn't like, Ithink that before the Internet,
the challenge was if I become asgood as the the the album that
I'm listening to, if I become asgood as those guys, I can be
those guys. You know, long before like, you

(19:11):
know, podcasts that give you thereality and the heartbreak of
like, you know, or like the the numbers of Spotify or something,
or like, you know, the trillion songs get released and three go
number one or like before any ofthat, it was just like it was
you and your buddies and like whoever's dad had the coolest

(19:33):
record collection and you would geek out and just like, if we
can play that, then we can maybebe in that bet.
You know, you're the ridiculous pipe dreams.
But so that sort of passion and just like excitement before the
drudgery of the reality of of anindustry and the business, the
music business when it was just music as a kid, it wasn't too

(19:55):
thought out. It was just like, I like, I just
want to get better. I just want to you know, and,
and potentially, you know, as your as your blade sharpens and
you, you spot another sharp blade that becomes your, your
next thing. Like, you know, I don't know
whether it's a battle of the bands or you're in like a.
Where you just had a gig and andyou think you're the sharpest

(20:17):
blade and some other kid is likepretty hot on, you know, quick
on the draw and you're like, man, I gotta I gotta wake up a
bit earlier tomorrow and and hitthe skins, you know.
And so a magical time like, yeah, you know, if I can
remember that, that's really what it what it felt like, you
know, just like, how fast can this thing go?
Yeah. Before, before someone says to

(20:38):
you, no, no, no. But you know, there's a speed
limit on the highway and like most engines have a governor
built into it. You're just putting your foot
flat and you're like, I want to just see how fast this came
musically, how fast this can go,you know, without the without
any danger. But yeah, that's it really, I
guess. Yeah, and people, I think
underestimate how luck really does play a part because

(21:02):
especially now with social media, YouTube, Instagram, we
were talking about some of that earlier.
It's like there's so many talented people.
So like, you know, I'd hate to say it's not a bad talent, but
it's like, man, there's really no reason apart from the luck
and and obviously certain circumstances.

(21:23):
But like you'll see certain artists and they doing this and
you'll see other artists that you might think are just as good
as that, but they can't seem to get there.
So it's like sometimes it is luck, sometimes it's timing,
sometimes it's relationships andwho, you know, let's jump into
just Ginger for a little bit. You get to 1997, you get the

(21:44):
call to somehow become the bass player in Just Ginger.
You mentioned earlier that you hadn't played bass.
You kind of figured what 4 strings?
How difficult could it be? So talk me through a little bit
of this. How do you end up replacing Tux?
How do you the bass or did you have enough of a musical
foundation that you could figureout for yourself?

(22:07):
Did you have to go for lessons? How quickly was the transition
from, hey, can you come play bass for us to whoa, I'm playing
bass in this band because from what I can remember, and I was
very young, but from what I can remember, that time, that era,
it seemed like you guys were on this rocket ship, man.
It was like you couldn't turn onTV without seeing just Ginger.

(22:28):
You couldn't turn on radio without hearing just Ginger.
Just Ginger was everywhere. So was it like, was it weird
kind of just jumping into that, or was it kind of like a natural
transition from being, well, I'mthis drummer on KTV, so this is
just the next thing? You know, we're 1213 years old.
You're a teenager. It's kind of like a cool excuse

(22:52):
to bunk school, you know, you know, if it's like going on a
tour to Namibia, which is like aneighboring country of our
country and you're going there, you know, you got to leave on
like the Thursday. So you bunk school like the
Friday. So it's it's just adventure and
and and again, just can't play enough drums, you know, and just
can't play enough music. So it's just like there is no
off switch. And then later still like, you

(23:14):
know, like just post team still having that.
But now obviously like, OK, like, you know, it's, it's, it's
out in the real world and it's alittle bit like, you know, if
you don't hunt, you don't eat kind of thing, you know.
So, so then it's kind of like sosuper passionate.
But like, you know, now it's about like, like, I'm like, I

(23:37):
want a gig. I want, you know, it's not just
about playing drums 10 hours in the garage or whatever.
It's like I want to play six nights a week, you know, because
now that that's the thing, that's the next thing of like,
how many gigs can I get and how you know?
And then so like, I don't reallyremember how, but in the 80s

(23:58):
drum machines were very popular and becoming very popular.
And it's kind of like what AI isnow where there was like, it's
going to take all every drummer isn't going to be without work.
That's what it felt like, you know, when like the eight O 8
came out and like, you know, allthese, you know, different drum
machines and stuff. So my dad out of like obviously

(24:21):
just pure care and concern and and love was like he would take.
That's why I played on the knitting needs because he would
he would take his drumsticks to work with him.
So I couldn't play drums becausehe was scared that there
wouldn't be any gigs for drummers.
So my, my dad, as I remember it,like, you know, he, he, he saved
up a bunch of like leave at, at work and, and bought Fender

(24:45):
Stratocaster from a gigging musician in Cape Town at the
time, like an American Strat, you know, to give me a guitar to
like give me another instrument,you know, because I'd like, I'd
always play on, on, on on on hisacoustic.
But my father's left-handed. So I was doing like all sort of
weird stuff. I don't know.
And so and, and that gigging musician Robert Gallagher ended

(25:07):
up becoming the, like, the head offender for South Africa many,
many, many, many years later. But so this is like, I got this
guitar. And again, then it was like the
same records that I fell in lovewith, like Steely Dan, like The
Royal Scam and, and those records and Stevie Wonder, which
like we just obsessed over. Then it was like, you know, I'd
obviously worn those records outlearning the drums, but now it's

(25:29):
like, OK, I'm going to go back to those records and learn the
guitar. So, yeah, So I, I, I, I, I
taught myself like, yeah, like Icould play a guitar.
And then at some point I was like playing with my parents.
It just was like a natural evolution.
I was like, it was sort of like,well, it's a new thing and
you've got to go for lessons. So I did have that
understanding. And I was like, OK, so it's the

(25:50):
top four strings of the guitar, right?
And so there was a cover band, aband, a cover band called
Nowhere Out that was looking fora bass player.
And I was like, well, but yeah, I I can do it, I guess, you
know, and auditioned with my dad's acoustic and I said that
my pace was in for repairs and they were good place.

(26:11):
So it's cool you got the gig. And we were like, they were
doing covers like 6 nights a week.
It was that thing of like, you know, you're old and you've got
to find the time, whatever. But it was just that thing of
like you're playing three sets anight, 6 nights a week.
So the like Monday night or no, we wouldn't play.
I don't think we played Monday. I'm trying to remember.
But anyways, like, let's say we called it like a Monday night,

(26:32):
like a student night gig, whatever.
You know, I'd play with like these two fingers and then I'd
blister them and then the Tuesday night I'd play with the
last two fingers and I'd learnedto play with those while these
are while I'm popping, you know,And I so before I knew it, like
just because I had to play that much, my stamina and my like, I
just levelled up because I had to.

(26:53):
And you know, you just like, andso that's how I think, I think I
joined that band in like April of 97.
And then like I want to say maybe somewhere around about
maybe like September or so of that year, just Ginger actually
opened up for Toto. Yeah, I remember this.
Yeah. At at the Standard Bank arena.

(27:15):
So already then there were situations that sometimes I had
to be on standby so I wasn't in the band, but it was like just
in case I need to play bass. So I was always like every night
I was set up on the side of the stage and had my own monitor
that if I had to play the game, I would be off stage, but I was

(27:36):
there. So that already started the
conversation of like, you know, if I need to step in.
And then that around about that time they they needed someone to
to to play bass and record on a Rodriguez cover called Sugarman.

(27:56):
And that that ended up becoming like a a again before the
Internet. The the our singer Art Matthews,
as we all, as the whole music industry is but such a such a
deep, deep, deep Rodriguez fan. And he grew up on the bluff and
he genuinely, there was a story that he thought was true, that

(28:18):
Rodriguez, I won't say what the story was because it's, it's
quite morbid, but that let's just say that he had passed,
right? OK, so it was an ode.
It was a tribute like, a loving tribute to like an incredible 1
of the greatest songwriters ever, right?
Fantastic. Songwriter.
So yeah. Incredible, incredible,
timeless. And so we recorded our version

(28:39):
of that song and it was the first single.
It was my first time. It was my first PlayStation.
That was my audition into the band.
It was the first time I've played bass in a studio.
So that song happened and they were like, well, OK, you're in.
And do I want to tour that December with him?
And that. So then that was it.
That's how I got. That's how I transition from a

(29:00):
drummer to like a cover band to,to like a few months that are
being in this rocket ship. As you, as you.
As you. Yeah.
And and then that record, the second record that that song was
in became like the fastest selling rock record.
So it it was really a trajectoryof like never before kind of
thing. And and we didn't really have

(29:26):
didn't really have much company in terms of like, who do we ask?
How does this all work? And you know, the, the lost band
that kind of had done that, you know, Rabbit, of course, the
manga group, like incredibly huge, far greater than us.
But in terms of our, our peer group in the rock market in
South Africa, you know, we were kind of, I don't want to say we

(29:50):
were, we were, we were very thankfully so embraced and, and
loved by the fan base. But we didn't, we weren't like
fast friends with the rest of, of the industry because, you
know, everybody was working as hard as we were and everybody
wanted the success as much as wewanted it.
And we didn't, we didn't ask forit any more than anybody else.

(30:10):
But it just so happened that, asyou said, timing you, you just
know 1. I don't know one, the greatest
musical minds and moguls can predict what's going to become
cultural. You can predict what's going to
be popular. You can predict what's going to
be a hit, but to a degree, but you but you cannot predict

(30:32):
what's going to become cultural.You can't Gangnam Style like why
not between the other albums that he did, why that you know,
and you you just don't know. And, and maybe that's part of
what keeps reeling every time wewe think we're out, you know,
that, that, that Lua just hooks us back in, you know, what if,

(30:53):
what if we're the next thing or,you know.
It could happen because especially now, you know, it's
like I remember pre Internet band aids, I was always told,
man, if you haven't made it by the time you're 24, it's just
never going to happen. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
from 24. That's such a random, right?
Yeah, like what the hell. Right.
OK, so so anyway, I believed this for a long time, but now,

(31:17):
even though you do still have age or age demographics in
certain genres, pop being one ofthem with TikTok and YouTube
reels and Instagram reels and stuff, the amount of people who
are famous and the rap is all over the place.
I see these two rap guys from England who are in their 70s.

(31:40):
I see them on TikTok all the time.
They're great, you know, so it'slike there is no you don't know
what could happen. Look at how look at how songs
come back in terms of trends. I mean, there's that sleep with
Max song that that blew up and remade them household names to
like the average 15 year old recently.
It's like stuff like that happens, you know, So hey,
listen, I don't want to, you know, be redundant and and with

(32:04):
a Stranger things thing exactly like, I mean, it happens.
So it's like you just never know.
You never know. And and I think, yeah, you know,
again, it's, it's, it's kind of like the lottery.
I don't know if you want to put all your hopes in it for, for
like somebody who's like trying to put every duck in in a row in
one thing. But like, music is an asset.

(32:27):
Maybe you can't touch it per SE.Maybe you can't hold on to it
and this and that, this and that.
But when you have great songs and a discography, like you guys
have somebody out there, there'sa reason why guys like Dylan and
the Chili Peppers and all these guys are selling their catalogs.
It's not like those catalogs aren't worth money.
You know, obviously there's different levels of money.

(32:48):
I mean, a Bruce Springsteen or aBob Dylan figure is going to
sell that catalog at $300 million, Where's I'm not going
to sell my catalog for $300 million.
But you know what I'm trying to say?
It's like the these assets therethat are valuable for people.
So I think it's great, man. Here's what I don't want to be
redundant about it because I know it's been documented pretty

(33:09):
well over the years and I know odds done a few interviews out
there where he does talk about it.
So I don't necessarily need to go into all of the details, but
I'm going to just allude to a few things here before I get to
the question. So I'm fast forwarding because
of time constraints, but just change your land up.
Becoming at the time the biggestband in South Africa.

(33:33):
You sell somewhat at least now you've you've still sold upwards
of 250,000 units, a big number for a South African band.
You'll end up going to the UK for a period of time.
I've heard some stories about you guys having it a little bit
tough out there. I don't know what is or what
isn't true. I do know that you eventually
land up in the USI think you signed with Curb Records.

(33:56):
I could be wrong on that. Yeah.
Regardless, you know, to paint apicture, you guys do very well.
You share stages with guys like Stevie Wonder, YouTube, Maroon
5, Goo Goo Dolls, the Spice Girls, out of all people
craziness. Talk to me about this.
You're comfortable. You are essentially top of that

(34:17):
food chain. What was the decision to try
relocate when you possibly couldhave just stayed comfortable on
top of that food chain? And then with relocation both in
the UK and the US, what? Were the hardest parts.
OK, let's start with OK. So firstly we we started really

(34:43):
young. I'm the youngest in the band,
but I was 19 when I joined just Ginger and it was already
rocketing. And then at that time there was
such a Theo Krauss who we we spoke just off camera about from

(35:07):
another great band of the same era as promote New girls.
Also great producer and just, you know, so established, but he
he was recently writing a thesisand and I don't want to say too
much in case it hasn't been published just yet, but there's
an interesting correlation between what was happening in

(35:31):
South Africa as well as in the music and it it potentially
can't be like remiss that there is they they fed each other to a
degree. So the mid 90s was obviously a
historical time for our country and it had had we been five

(35:54):
years before five years, you know, I think off camera you and
I also just said like you could live your whole life one day
later and have a completely different life just one day born
a day later, go to school the next day instead of the day
before. Like incredible, you know,
profound differences just in that alternate universe that

(36:17):
maybe exists somewhere else. But when we started, we were so
young and, and, and so much was happening in our country.
It was incredible time and, and an incredibly like not unsure,
but like it, it felt like there's just, there's just

(36:39):
possibility. What else is possible?
The like just real incredible the 95 Rugby World Cup, just
just profound moments of, of I wish we could sort of extract
the essence of of that time and and put it in a meal.
So you could take it like as yousaid, like the the tangibility

(37:01):
of it, the assets of what that what was that?
What is that time? And, and obviously we're not the
first country to go through radical transition, but, but
man, like we, we, we, we are a unique case study of, of just
how to navigate those waters. And, and musically, when you're
that young, you don't realize that what you're doing is you're

(37:21):
putting a capsule of a voice to that time.
So at the time you just like, well, that sounds cool to us.
And we, you know, we're writing what we see and, and that sort
of stuff, but we didn't really expect that a writer and a
singer and a voice like our leadsinger arts what, what, how that

(37:43):
would resonate because that was,it just hit the nerve.
It just struck. So we were all very young.
And then it was, as I said, the reason I mentioned what is
happening in the country is because there just was this
hope. There was this real optimism and
people were like, people were building like brick and mortar

(38:03):
building venues to have us play the opening of that in you, you
know, like a lot of a lot of thevenues that we played didn't
exist before us and, and didn't carry on existing.
It was just like we heard just Ginger play.
They, they, they can play here by our place.

(38:24):
And so that was happening. And then you do that for like
2-3 years. Come to 2000 now we've been
doing it. And before it was just Ginger.
The reason it it had a fan base is because systematically over
time, the band was actually a circuit cover band and the band

(38:47):
was introducing the original songs in the set.
So people were coming and hearing like all these
incredible songs by the best bands in the world.
And then they were like, who's that?
And it wasn't like Shazam couldn't Shazam, you know, there
weren't even cell phones. So never mind like, you know,
the the worm game or the brick game was like we're like we've

(39:07):
made it. We've cracked life.
This nothing can be better than.This the graphics are so great.
The polyphonic ringtones, dude, where they had the where the
melody was like a famous song. You are.
This is so incredible. It's like, dude, Can you imagine
that now? Hilarious, you know.
I know this is like, you know, the the the the banana phone
where like you fool too hard. The whole talking thing came off

(39:30):
like the banana Nokia. Oh dude.
So imagine you know, you're, you're on this, you're just one
town to the next and you're justdoing this thing.
And now, now you're I'm 2022, I'm 2122 and I've done like 3

(39:57):
coastal December tours and opening up for big acts and
stuff like that. And already we're starting to go
like but like. Like, like we've, we've played
this particular venue a few Times Now and, and, and you're
21. So then it's, it isn't I, I can

(40:17):
genuinely say, and I think I canspeak for everybody, but I, I, I
really do think I can confidently say that it wasn't
megalomania that, that, that really motivated us.
It truly was. It was.
It was if I can, maybe this is the wrong word, but maybe like a
panic, like a mild panic of like, what if.

(40:38):
What if this is it? Yeah.
You know, So it really wasn't coming from a place of bravado
like, well, because we sold, youknow, a lot of albums,
thankfully. Maybe we can in a bigger
country. We'll do what, You know, it
wasn't. Of course, that finds its way
into the discussion, but it certainly isn't what drives the

(40:59):
discussion. And it isn't, it wasn't what got
us onto the plane. As a matter of fact, from from
the time we got on the plane to move to the UK, that was two
years in the UK and then seven years in total in the States,
predominantly Los Angeles. From the time we got in the

(41:19):
plane, it was like you said, talk, talk you through the
difficult parts. It would be far shorter
conversation to talk you throughthe highlights because we
certainly went under any disillusion of of of we're going
to arrive and this red carpet isgoing to roll out.

(41:39):
Absolutely not. But what we couldn't anticipate
is that pre the Internet, what made its way, what was popular
enough to make its way into our lives, into our everyday, into
what we formed our what we basedour we sharpened our teeth on,
you know, the European, the American, the Australian,

(42:03):
incredible music that was hopping over the pond, as they
say, rethink that. Like if you make the music,
that's it, that's good enough, right?
If, if you can make good music like that good music, then
you've then that's it. You, you're, you're in the club.
And then you realize that you arrive and you start

(42:24):
understanding and you, you, you by entering that industry, you
understand what some of those costs are incurred by the time
you are a household name, not just in your country, but
globally. What is the price of that?
You know, and I'm talking about a very zoomed out statement when

(42:47):
I say the price. So on your well, well-being and
all these things. And so we were just trying to
figure it out. You know, we didn't again, it
wasn't like we could quickly like, you know.
Hey, Siri, you go to a, a, a club down the road and you ask
them, can we, can we take your quiet night, you know, Tuesday

(43:09):
night, whatever. And and you and you, you build
it up, you know, and, and I mean, you know, living in pounds
and spending in rands. It adds up.
Yeah. You know what I'm talking about.
Yeah. And, and, and the, the, the
weird, the weird sensation of, of doing what you do.

(43:35):
It's the same thing, same song, same band, same musicianship,
same execution, but you play to an audience of also expat, you
know, S Africans, but they're bringing their, their friends
from either UK nationality or wherever.
And then there's this moment where you can either in

(43:58):
conversation or you can just, you know, one human to another.
You're on stage and you can see in their face that they're like,
what's, what's the, what's the trap here?
Like what, what is what's wrong here?
What, why, why isn't this a thing?

(44:19):
And the South Africans that are watching us are like, hey, like,
how cool are they cool, right? And then there's this thing of
like success is such a, is such a like equalizer, because if I,
if I spend a plate in my mouth and I do a bass solo and I get

(44:41):
OK, in today's terms, I get 0 likes.
OK, then someone will say it's because you're spinning a plate
and playing bass. If I get a million likes,
someone will say it's because you're spending a plate playing
bass. Yeah, success is somehow the
correct answer. Yeah.
What, what? Whatever that answer is, it's

(45:01):
correct if it's success. And that's that can drive you
mad it completely. It's a madding equation to try
and solve if seemingly everybodyelse knows the answer and you're
like, just just give me the answer so I can know as well.
You know, so going there, the hard part was I'm talking years

(45:24):
now, right, almost as they said of obviously you asked the
question like maybe it was just then, maybe it was the timing
and and maybe that that was it. Maybe that question that we
asked ourselves as young early just turned 20.
Somethings like is this it? Maybe the answer was yeah, that

(45:46):
that was it. But then you know how it goes.
Then the very next gig that you do on like a midweek to nobody,
one person at the table at the back walks up to you and gives
them their business card and goes, I'm a somebody and you're
incredible. And then, oh, it's still a

(46:06):
thing. And you keep going and, and
round and round the merry go round.
So I don't play golf, but I, I, I understand.
From what I understand, it's that one good swing.
That. That cup that brings you back
for the punishments of like 100 bad swings.

(46:28):
Yeah, You know, so and, and I, so I, I don't think that this is
a musician's lament. I don't think we're, we're
unique in that sense. But I, I do think that when,
when musicians talk to each other like this, like we've all
been there and I think we all get it, you know, that it's like
doesn't, doesn't matter how bad it treats you.

(46:48):
Sometimes it's just like you. It's just it's, it's, it's your
true love, you know, and I don'tknow, being abroad that so many
things happened that were just real, real moments of like, OK,
so it isn't just us, you know, like I'm not going to make
mention names, but there's like big celebrities that like

(47:11):
tweeted about us. And then you you wake up to this
bizarre reality of like, it's almost like you, you have to
double check. And it's like, it really is that
person. It is their account.
And they really are attacked us because they saw us in Vegas at
a thing. And it's like, wow, Like, wow,
OK. And then you think, OK, so OK,

(47:34):
it, it isn't just us. It is, you know, other people do
see it. But then it requires so many
moments like that consistently. I mean, people, people can say
what they want. They do say what they want
anyways about anything but Nickelback, which is like a

(47:55):
weird like perplexing case studyof like how did such a beloved
anything become not beloved? I don't I don't get it.
Like like bands like Nickelback and I'm going to even throw

(48:16):
Creed into the the picture there.
Like Creed's had a had a real resurgent share.
I mean, they settle in that arenas and stuff again, it's
it's pretty. Incredible as I believe, yeah,
but it's. Like, people are so quick to
throw shade and, you know, I mean, whether you love it or
hate it is really not even relevant at this point.

(48:37):
The achievement in terms of units sold by these bands, man,
you've got to respect that. And like what?
What always blows my mind with Nickelback is, man, Nickelback
going incredible. Like, you know, you might not
like some of the singles that have been chosen for radio play,

(48:57):
but you go listen to some of thealbums.
That guy is a phenomenal songwriter and that that drummer
who's been with him for the lastfew albums.
I think his name is Daniel Adier.
Wow, dude, he's something man. He used to be in three was down,
but OK, but but but incredible. And like, you know, we could go
on back and forth about this allday because I, I, I love this

(49:19):
particular topic. But like Creed in the states at
sold Hendricks, they outsold Hendrix.
They've sold more records in theUnited States than Jimi Hendrix.
So like, hate them all you want.I'm pretty sure they're sleeping
just fine in their mansions at night.
Going people hate us, you know who cares?

(49:41):
That's a That's an interesting statistic, but it is, it's
obviously. Real, but it's real.
My thing about Nickelback was whatever it is or became or will
still be long may everyone prosper.
And I mean that with every fiberof my being like, or it really
is more like I, I really do wishthat for every for everybody's

(50:02):
and myself. But like as I understand it, it
took them like 14 years to be overnight.
Sometimes you, you need to really understand that the
context of that is important. It's important that when you
have a conversation about anything that you lead with and

(50:25):
14 years, so you can say over the third album, this or the
second this or that single or but 14 years before, right?
So the tenacity. How many times?
Incredible. Must you hear no and go?
I'm gonna do it anyways because if if they never heard no.

(50:45):
Why was it 14 years? I wish it wasn't the case.
I hope no one gets their dream shot down.
But it obviously was the case for whatever rhyme or reason and
the, the sheer tenacity and they're like, I, I just love
this thing too much, man. Or, or, or I'm not putting words
in their mouth. I hope that is the case, that

(51:07):
that's what it was. And I'm sure that was because by
the time you're the boss and your name is on the the
building, you're the poster. You're the reason that the arena
is booked and security has been thankful and public liabilities
paid for and portable toilets are paid for and cleaning Staffs
and blah, blah, blah. By the time it's your name on

(51:29):
that poster and it's your name on the building for that
evening, you're the boss and you're paying the overheads and
you're taking the risk. You've done something right.
Whatever genre. What you know, OK, we happen to
be talking about alt rock, so you know, Creed Nickelback, But
name the genre, name the genre the country, name the building,

(51:50):
name the event. By the time enough people agree
that this is a thing, you've done something right.
Whether it's great songwriting, great musicianships, the whole
band plays one chord all night and it's made you set stand out
and now you're a thing, whateverit is, whatever it is.
OK, let me rephrase this. If you went to a normal public

(52:15):
school like myself, in the era of when I went to school in my
day and I, you know, in my and I'm in my 30s now.
So in my day, if you went to school, one of the subjects at
school was definitely not. If you find yourself thrust into

(52:37):
the public eye, this is how you deal with it.
This is how you still hold on toyour humanity.
This is how you still are OK with disappointment.
It isn't you. Sometimes it is.
And, and accountability is important as well.
You know, this is what's so that's what, man, it's so tough

(52:57):
to have interviews because I have to like think about
everything I'm saying that it's not going to offend anybody
because it's really never offense.
But like sometimes it is your fault.
Sometimes it isn't your fault. I'm just saying that like when
the Internet's at its best and social media is at its best,
it's when hopefully moments likethis where we're not necessarily

(53:20):
stuck talking about people or things, but we can speak about
ideas and we can speak about like, you know, maybe it doesn't
have to be the same for you. And it really doesn't, it
doesn't have to be the same for me.
It doesn't mean that because I've had a particular path right
up until tonight, tomorrow morning, my path can be
completely different. And I, I have to believe that.

(53:44):
Yeah, Otherwise what, what are we doing?
You know, I have to believe thateven if you've had the best
incredible path, it it can be different, it can be better.
You can share. Yeah.
And there's there's such a beautiful community in the audio
community and in every communitynow with like master class and
stuff like that. I love what I'm seeing.
I love that. Like it's a way for people who

(54:07):
have earned their stripes. And you, you said the 10,000
hours and, but like, let's let'ssay there's like your 10,000
hours and then there's like your10,000 professional hours.
You know, those are two different things, you know, and
like an incredibly profound as almost everything that he ever
said, Johnny Clegg said to me when we were working, he said,

(54:30):
you know, anybody can do anything once, but can you do it
again? It, it reframed how I think
about almost everything because it's true.
It's like someone who runs the Comrades or, or climbs Mount
Everest. These are incredible feats.
But you can do it again, you know, you don't have to.
But I'm just saying like I, I think that part of musicians,

(54:53):
it's like if like you, you, you,you know what drives you.
OK, I want to be #1 And then you're #1 and then this crash.
Because what's left to do? Like I've done it now.
No, just we have more number ones.
It's OK, it's great. What a what a charmed blessing
of a life. Just enjoy like it's cool and

(55:14):
also don't touch some grass and,and be part of life and help
someone else and, and all these cool things that like can be
cool now and should be cool, which I think social media and
the Internet is a different accountability to the Rockstar
now. Then there was, which was like
it was expected that you acted acertain way or did a certain

(55:36):
thing. And that's just not the case
anymore. And again, no one can predict
culture. No one can predict what what
tomorrow is going to be the thing, whatever.
But right now it just feels to me like I'm, I'm so I'm so
grateful that there's platforms like like this, where it's like
people are, are, are are are adding context and no one can

(56:01):
tell anybody what to do. No one should really.
I might listen to myself tomorrow and go that that's not
right. That doesn't make any sense that
that actually happened, I think.That's part of life.
Gotta throw throw this out there.
Like you mentioned success earlier, these levels of
success. And I got to tell you, man, just
talking to you and I don't know you well by any stretch of the

(56:24):
imagination, but you can tell you've thought about a lot of
this stuff and, and the way you compartmentalize it or think
about it that to me success. Think about even the tenacity
and all these topics that we're talking about.
If you didn't think about some of these things, they would
drive you nuts in the way that you alluded to earliest to to go

(56:46):
back to the final point that we were talking about.
It's like, dude, almost daily I think to myself, well, that was
stupid, why did I think that? Why did I do that?
I think knowing those things about yourself and knowing that
we aren't perfect the way you are approaching things, that to
me is success, dude. Because a lot of people have
this kind of mentality and I'm stereotyping, but some people

(57:10):
don't have the same grace that you are bringing forward to this
in regards to maybe they've reached a pinnacle of success
and now they don't live there anymore.
And so there's a little bit of bitterness or maybe they want
this and they haven't reached that.
So there's this weird animosity because of this.
The way you are conducting yourself is excellent is what

(57:32):
I'm trying to say. And I think that is a version of
success that's very. Kind and I, I, I, I, I receive
it and I can only say that potentially just because like
we're, we're all just products of hopefully company that is
also on a particular trajectory like COVID.

(57:56):
No one could have predicted that.
Well, scientists probably predicted it, but let's say
certainly the entertainment industry, every industry,
everybody was, was, was so devastated and so deeply
affected. And I feel so guilty to even say
this. And I say this with reverence

(58:17):
and, and all the respect that isdue for anybody that suffered
any kind of loss. But COVID, when COVID hits, I, I
was, I was in probably more thana dozen acts projects, you know,
where the big touring artists that I'm session musician for my

(58:40):
projects, corporate projects. I was in so many different acts
on, on, on various instruments. But like, you know, so like
kicking non-stop. And I was also full time in
studio everyday. So I was double dipping by
grace. Like I'm so grateful that I was
that busy, but I didn't realize that I'd already actually burnt

(59:04):
out. I was just doing it because it's
what I do. And you know, then you become a
person that when someone meets you, they're like, man, I, I, I,
I'd love to be that busy. And then you're like, oh, like I
dare not complain or like, yeah,go, go, go, you know, And then

(59:24):
COVID it and I didn't open iTunes for like 6 weeks.
I couldn't bring myself, I couldn't like almost like bear
the thought of opening up and thinking about what song I want
to listen because it's all learning Rep producing rape,
playing rape was lice, right? Then losses happened like deep

(59:47):
losses, tragic losses. And I developed like chronic
insomnia and I eventually had togo see a sleep therapist and
and. She said to me.
You know, what time are you trying to fall asleep?

(01:00:08):
And I'm like, well, we can't go anywhere.
We can't do anything. So I'm like trying to be like a
regular, you know, 99 to fiver without the 9:00 to 5:00.
So you know, I'm trying to like I'd want to just like watch
streaming services, you know, and till 5:00 in the morning.
So like, you know, whatever normal time, like 10/11/12,

(01:00:33):
whatever. So she goes.
But what time would you normallyget to bed in your line of work
while you get home, take a shower, decompress, You know,
the adrenaline of gigging, especially if you've drummed.
Like with me when I'm, when I'm on drums, it takes me longer to
wind down. Maybe that's just me thing, just
the physicality of it. So I get home and I'm lying.
Wired, yeah. Yeah, it kind of in a way, yeah.

(01:00:54):
It's more, more than any other instrument.
And so I would say like, you know, two o'clock. 3:00 AM.
So she's like, well, then why are you trying to fall asleep at
10:00 PM? She's like, you're, you're an
owl. And I said OK, Like, I thought
it was just like a like a endearing term or something.
So she explained to me that genetically, when humans are

(01:01:14):
born, you're born one of two things.
All of us, without exception. You're born a lock.
Where you are. Quick to fall it like get tired
you get tired like this and you quick to fall asleep and you're
an early riser and when you wakeyou're wide awake so you can
wake up at 4:00 AM and go jogging at 4:50 AM right That's

(01:01:35):
a lot An owl is someone that haslong onset fatigue and tiredness
and melatonin takes longer again, I'm paraphrasing and
please these are professional sleep please don't roast me, but
this is how it is explained to me and how I remember it but so
an owl falls asleep later, wakesup a little later and takes

(01:01:56):
longer to wake up you know like I'm no good before my 4th
coffee. That's an owl so and you can be
a mother with kids, you can go to university, you can be or
whatever you can. There can be factors in your
life that change your your cycleand you will adapt.
But if someone drops you in the Amazon at 80 years old, you'll
go straight back to what you were born as.
That's why that's who we. And I was always so jealous of

(01:02:20):
when I was on my way into like airports at 5:00 AM, you know,
to catch a flight that I'm like,you know, death warmed up and
I'm seeing people jogging and waving and I'm like, I was so
jealous. I was like, yeah, so cool.
I want to do that so badly, but I just can't.
I can't I've said alarms at like4:00 going jogging.
Are you crazy? So, so she was like, it's

(01:02:44):
interesting that a lot of peoplethat choose nocturnal
professions subconsciously choose professions like
potentially like, like emergencyservices and musicians and, and
bar stuff and people who are just in, in nocturnal beings
are, are sometimes. So then you start thinking like,

(01:03:10):
OK, there's talent and then there's, you know, circumstance
and everything. And then you go like on a
genetic level, was I always supposed to be a musician when
COVID hit, all we had was time to think, you know, and, and be
terrified and, and be like riddled with anxiety, you know,
and so to bring it all around when it opened up.
And thankfully, you know, I was MD and I still MMD ING like a

(01:03:35):
church. So like, when it opened up, they
could have like services to 50 people and there were some clubs
that you could play to 50 people.
And people were so eager to justconnect with humans again.
And so it was like slowly but surely carefully with caution
and, you know, safety first. I slept like a baby and I

(01:03:58):
realized that I'd done the trickso long that I'd stopped
believing in the magic of it. Like, like a musician can do the
trick so much that you just stopbelieving in magic because, you
know, the trick work. And I've been a musician my
whole life. And I was like, I know how it
works. And when people are like, yeah,

(01:04:21):
but when you're on a big stage and the crowds with you, like,
it must be such a rush. And I'm like, but it, it's my,
it's my job. Like it, like I dare not fail.
I'm there to be the best I can be sustainably for every minute
that I'm on that stage because that's what otherwise I'm not
good at what I do, right? And when I went back to gigging,

(01:04:44):
I had such like outpouring. And this hasn't left me.
It's still with me now I look back at like, you know, a
difficult sound check or like you, you get there and the specs
aren't exactly the PA that you record.
You know, they're not. Yes, we are professionals and
and there's a reason why there'stech writers and blah, blah,

(01:05:05):
blah. I'm not diminishing that.
I'm just saying that I went straight back to that kid that
yes, the gig is 240 fives or onehour corporate, corporate or
whatever. But like I would play for three
hours if you let. And that hadn't happened since I
was since I was a professional gigging musician where it's like

(01:05:27):
now it's I'm not just playing for fun.
I'm playing because I want more gigs and I want to be better at
what I do and I want to be a professional and I want it to
sustain a certain lifestyle and provide for me and my family.
But after COVID, I understood that at a cellular level, I
needed music to express myself because I went straight back to

(01:05:49):
sleeping like a baby. And I how else do you explain
that? So it is magic.
Music is creativity. Whether you're a sculptor or a
painter or a poet or being in the arts, it's magic.
Maybe there hasn't really even been words to adequately
describe it, you know? But I just feel that like more,

(01:06:13):
more than like, you know, Hey, what mic did you use on that
snare? Of course, of course, like the
nerd in US, we all want to know,you know, But sometimes it's
just like the joy of the person that's holding the stick, that's
hitting that drum generates a sound that you could you could,

(01:06:40):
we could put a dinky toy, you know, dollar store microphone.
It would probably still sound great.
Yeah. I think off camera before we
started the interview, you were talking about like it's about
the vibe and it's about the performance.
But what is the performance? What is the fairy test?
That is performance. We all in the room, the hair
stands up when you like, we got it.
That was the one like something happens.

(01:07:01):
You can. Feel it.
You can physically feel it and then hopefully you still feel it
the next day when you press playbecause that's also happened to
me where I'm like. A vocal.
Session or something and you actually color mark the take
you're like yeah, fluorescent pink shocking purple, whatever
it like this is this was the oneand then the next morning you're

(01:07:23):
like but take one still had a vibe.
Yeah, I've been. There, dude.
But more than anything else, more than the the 10,000 hours,
because there are kids out therenow that the Internet is
providing the opportunity that Ican, we can all see talent

(01:07:43):
anywhere in the world at any time, which is incredible.
And it's scary. But there are people who haven't
put in the 10,000 hours, but they've just got it.
Yeah, just got it. And when you see it, you believe
in magic again. You believe in just divine
intervention. It it it is maybe one day in the

(01:08:07):
afterlife or have maybe we'll we'll all just sit back and
smile when we actually figure out how it.
All what it is? But until then, we, we, we can
trust our guts. I think we can trust our guts
and that the feeling that we feel is true and that and that
it is a guiding force and shouldbe trusted at all costs.

(01:08:30):
When that feeling isn't there, maybe you shouldn't stick
around. You know, If that feeling is
there and it's not the best on paper, stick around you.
You said earlier on where if youhaven't read about 24.
That's what I was told, yeah. And then you said, but you were
too young to understand what that meant, right?

(01:08:52):
For me, like an Oracle, a mogul in our industry here, he hit a
mess. Great success, Like incredible
success. And and I and I just said to
him, how did you do it? Like, how did you do it?
You know, because you're a musician as well.
Like what makes you you How doesanybody else become you?

(01:09:14):
And he said, I just go where thegoings good.
And I knew at the time I had to remember it, but I didn't
understand it at all. And I'm still trying to
understand, but maybe it's that simple.
Maybe it is. Maybe it's the song that you
wrote in 3 minutes. That.
Is the one and you're like, no, but I I need to rewrite it and

(01:09:37):
pick the lyrics of what and put in more expensive chord and
maybe like, you know, an odd time bar here so that you know,
the musicians can just go with the going good, you know, and
but as a 20 year old, I was like.
Yeah, You start thinking the guyjust doesn't want to give you

(01:09:58):
the key. You're like, come on, man.
I just, you know, But he's just like, yeah, I'm just going away.
It feels good. You know, we touched on
microphones there with the snaredrum.
I thought it would be a good segue to sort of spend a few
minutes talking about you as a producer, just ginger eventually
end up back in South Africa. That's where you are now.
We spoke about that at the top of the show.

(01:10:20):
You've since landed up working as a producer, multi
instrumentalist, producer with some big artists over there.
And I know that you worked very closely with JP.
John called the Stefani at B Sharp Studios.
God rest his soul. Yeah.
Talk to me about your productionstyle.
Talk to me about how you were working.

(01:10:41):
We're working with John and you said you just moved into this
house, you're still busy building the studio, your 3
bedroom place. Just talk to me about some
studio stuff. We we won't get gas too much,
but just I'd love to hear what were you heads at with that
stuff, you know? That's a lot to unpack there.
So yeah, you, I mean, you, you recorded with JP as well.
JP was, was, was was the real deal, an engineer's engineer,

(01:11:10):
you know, before, before sort oflike here's seven ways to like
get the best focus on you won't believe number six before any of
that. There was like the recording
handbook. Yeah, I've read that book.

(01:11:30):
Before any of that, that it was like, OK, if you're working on a
console, it's voltage and this VU meters.
And if the needle does that, it's this.
But if it goes to tape, it's, you know, and that was it,
right? And JP ran like a cult studio.

(01:11:52):
It was, it was the studio of of of law, you know, folklore and
bands. Another great band in our
country Afrikaans rock alternative ban fork of police
car that they they rocked up at his gate like from cater like

(01:12:13):
just like, you know, before GPS like just OK.
When you get to Johannesburg, you get onto that highway and
then you turn off there and thenyou look for that street and
they're like hoot and they honk and they're like, hey, we are
here to we're going to record, you know, in Johannesburg.
And he was the guy that then knew that world and and he had

(01:12:35):
studied electronics, like got his diplomas and his degrees and
and like as an electronics engineer.
So could draw you the diagram ofthe solid-state amp and of a
valve amp and of a valve microphone and, and tell you
what why it is that and why it needs a power supply because
when any that and he's that he was that guy, which for me was

(01:12:56):
just OK, yeah. So I could play instruments and
I was such a fanatic of before Ieven knew what like a producer
actually is. I could tell you the producer of
almost every record because I was that guy that just would

(01:13:16):
wake up on a Saturday morning before my parents are even up
and just get my dad's LP's and take out the notes on the record
And engineered by so and so. And then the 90s came about and
it was like as a as a rock band,you know, in just Ginger.
It was like every record that weloved was like Anden O'Brien.
Anden O'Brien, dude. Yeah, You know, like incredible

(01:13:37):
names, one of, you know, hundreds of just, you know,
savants in the industry and the list goes on.
And then you realize that we as a as a country cultivated
giants, and the records that theworld loved were touched by our

(01:14:02):
talents, and you know that we can claim them the Kevin
Shirley's and. Eddie Kramer.
Eddie Kramer, of course. Matt Lunger, Matt, of course,
you know, and and and and so, so, so, so, so many Trevor
Raymond. And just as good as it gets.

(01:14:22):
World class, world class. And so then it's like, well, OK,
sometimes that you know, becausethere was a saying, yeah, and it
still is. But like there was a again, at
that incredible time in our country, there was local is Laca
and laca is a a opera cons word for for nice.

(01:14:45):
And there was a sound to that. But then the 90s came and and we
were we were trying to sound like our muses, you know, and
you can that you can that name your name.
Every South African band was trying to be there.
We love it. An equivalent or British
equivalent or Australian equivalent or wherever, you

(01:15:06):
know. And so when I got into
production, when I got back, I was like, I, I'd obviously it
wasn't quite as much as it is now, but YouTube was around and.
Facebook. Was that just become a thing?
But Myspace was a thing, but it wasn't this.
It wasn't like sharing information.

(01:15:26):
It was like cat videos and, you know, it wasn't like what it is
now. So I, I, I had been produced in
the States and in the UK and recorded in great studios and,
and before Curb Records, we wereactually signed to Capital
Records in the States and recorded at A&M and Henson and

(01:15:47):
like you know, done, done that, been in those rooms with those
people. But.
I was a bass player, so I just wanted to know what base and
have they got. I didn't know that later in
life. I had no clue that if I if I

(01:16:08):
just asked more questions, if I was like, you know, I remember
the one session that we did, they used, you know, the NS-10
cone flip for the sub and like, you know, those like almost like
the movie The usual Suspects. I don't think you ever seen that
but drops the cup. Putting all the dots together,

(01:16:31):
right? Yeah, exactly.
You know, and I've spent so manymoments in my life where I'm
like, oh, no, it was in front ofme the whole time.
You know, those kind of moments where I'm just like, oh, man,
yeah, I could beat myself up. But the osmosis of even if
you're not like on the pulse andlike sort of, oh, So what

(01:16:53):
capacitance is that Jack cable that I'm plugging in?
Oh, what's that doing to the high end and the fidelity
without that nerding out, you'rejust like, that sounds great and
it makes me want to play better and I get it.
And then you realize that. If you.
Felt. That even if you don't know how,
you know what to chase when you go into, OK, I'm going to maybe
do my thing in studio and you don't only have the experience

(01:17:17):
of like, just make sure it doesn't get in the red and don't
play out of time and don't play out of tune.
Like that's how we make professional music.
If you if you venture outside the realms of like, OK, we know.
But if it touches in the red, but all of us have goosebumps.

(01:17:40):
Again, I'm not saying either or.I would rather that's another
trap that like I'm trying to unlearn in my life and then in
music because music is just an extension.
But I'm really trying to get outof a bad habit that I think we
all at some point in life got told that would you rather have
A or B? The correct answer is can I have

(01:18:02):
both? That's that should always be the
answer because it doesn't make any sense to live like to in
retrospect try and frame a life of like should have been signed
at 24, should have had a number one.
Yeah, but would you rather have a number one at 24 or?

(01:18:25):
There's too many variables. You can't.
You can't. Way too many variables.
Yeah, well, would you rather make not know how anything works
but you but but you got good ears or would you be a super
nerdy engineer, but you don't know what to like.
I was like, can I can I be all of it?
Can I try and just do it all? But right now I really don't

(01:18:48):
know what I need to know. So JP being the engineers
engineer was like, OK, let me worry about the needle moving
and, and stuff. And you worry about the sonics
and the, the framing, you know, and I, I guess like, you know,

(01:19:09):
there isn't really a definitive answer for what does a producer
do? Because if you, if you listen to
someone again, like a sage, likeRick Rubin, you can't be him
because by the time you interview him about what did you
do on that album and what choices did you make, then he

(01:19:30):
says, well, I didn't. I just laid on the couch and
told him to keep. Right.
You you're trying to extract oneflavor from a mission and star
dish. Yeah.
It's like, yeah, I can tell you what's in it, but you're never
going to make it because it tookme a lifetime to understand that
it took a pinch of it versus thetablespoon.
It's the nuance. It's everyday decisions of

(01:19:53):
living that life. You can't just like, go, well, I
made that incredible album. But then I'm also like a
mechanic in my space. Like I do.
I do only this. Yeah.
Win, draw or lose, this is what I am.
And everything you get from me is I love this thing and I've
got to fall on my sword if I have to.
But that's what it is, so. Would you rather know whatever

(01:20:19):
you're about to say? My everyday living is what this
this is this thing that I do. So production for me was like I
didn't know the technicalities as I started.
I was like, I can play it a few instruments and I've I've been
produced and I I like mind blowing moments of incredible
producers that like we bring a song and they go, OK, but if we,

(01:20:43):
you know, the obvious thing, it's a bit fast, maybe not the
right key, maybe we should double the chorus.
But when you when, when someone comes to you and goes, I hear
the song as a 6-8 and you're like, what you know and, and you
realize that you can, you can completely break something and,

(01:21:04):
and not, not lose what you had, what you have.
You always have, hopefully for the most part, but you don't
lose anything by completely breaking it.
If you are that adventurous and and it doesn't cause anxiety,
you can have fun by taking something apart, looking like

(01:21:25):
what is inside this thing, put it back differently and see what
happens then. And so I was like, OK, I can do
that musically and just let someone who really understands
the science. If a mix is completely blown out
and distorted and, and peeking across it that that is wrong.
That's not an opinion, you know,and it that can be kind of cool

(01:21:47):
if you're going for that, if you're.
Going for it, yeah. It's not conventional, let's
just say that. So my production was like, I was
just very lucky that I I got some really, really great
projects very, very early on. And it just so happened that
like, then you're on, you're on the carousel of like someone's
reaching out to you, but you're in a project.

(01:22:09):
So now they have to wait a bit. And then a weird thing happens
in probably in most industries, but in music as well when you're
busy. People.
Think that something's going on.So they go, they come to you
where as you can be incredible, you can be even better, but you

(01:22:29):
are just currently not busy. And the perception is, but why
is this person? So I don't know why that exists.
I'm not quite sure, but it's almost like it's an it's
potentially an energy thing. And like we were talking about
like the magic of it all and potentially like the, the
energy. When it's good, it's an it's
inexplicable. When it's bad, it's, it's

(01:22:49):
inexplicable. So I, I just, I happened to
catch a wave of, of, of good energy early on in my new
career. People knew me as, as a thing.
And then it's a new thing, a newhead that you're wearing.
And from the get go, I didn't bring like an air of let me show

(01:23:13):
you how this works. Or, you know, I was, I made it
very clear that every project that I first and foremost, I'd
be the first person to say, I don't think I'm the right guy
for a particular job. You know, before someone else
tells me, I'll be the first to, to, you know, to say it.

(01:23:34):
But if I say yes and it's it's mutual, then there's just no off
switch and and there's no sort of like say if the.
Budget's this, then I'll. Only give it that all goes out
the window. It's it's it's 1000% until the
final gets pride out of my hands.
And that's just the approach that I took in terms of like a
fan first. Otherwise, don't do it.

(01:23:55):
So I was like, I'm going to try and make a song, EP, collection
of singles, album, whatever thisis, whatever it starts as and
becomes, whatever that is from the word go, I'm going to assume
the position of like making them, making the music that I
want to be in that band and I'm in the I'm in the audience.

(01:24:17):
That feeling that I had like watching incredible bands,
watching even like bands that I ended up being in before I was
in them and watching them and going like, this is it.
And so that that thing of like, rather than, you know,
referencing that radical, like cool snare from this thing.
And if we do that, then you'll you'll sound like that.

(01:24:38):
That starts creeping in when youkind of know a bit more about
how the magic trick works. Again, like when you've made a
bunch of albums and you've been in studio a long time, that
thing starts creeping in where you're like, well, if we sound,
if we do that trick like that works for that, then this will
probably work because now you'rebeing professional.

(01:25:01):
That's what professional sounds like, and that's the
professional map. I can really use the proof, but
in the beginning you're just like, I don't even know how this
happened. This is awesome.
You know when when you're havingthose mistakes in studio.
So in the beginning it was that like I really didn't let my lack
of hardware and software, I didn't let that limit me in

(01:25:26):
terms of musicality. I was just.
Like listen man. Like, even if we just hammered
into a phone, we can make it work.
Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then graciously I was, I wasvery, very patiently taught
through JP and I still, I still after working with him for over
a decade, like I still didn't know everything he knew.

(01:25:49):
But it was a beautiful symmetry of like being able to Also,
there were there definitely weremoments where I would provide an
insight into like a musical trick or a a nuance or a touch
or a flip that he would be like,what did you do there?
Is this the same song? How did that happen?
So it became a not not a tit fortat or but it just became a

(01:26:15):
beautiful conversation of like he was an incredible example of
someone that that. That didn't have.
Any at all. He did not have any rose tinted
glasses about the old days or the old ways.
You know, if you spoke to him about like consoles, he's.
Like just a bunch. Of hiss, you know, or if you,

(01:26:37):
you know. I can hear you.
I can hear you, you know, So like you.
Know yeah, you know you're like.Sir, let me tune you, dude.
I remember the other belly run thing.
I remember I went in there. For I was playing on some guy's
EP and he was he. He didn't mean.
It how it came across. But he the guy couldn't really
sing very well and he'd be like,have you like taken vocal

(01:27:01):
lessons like he's approached about it would be, it would just
be great. You'd be like, no, this is
great, man. I can tell you some stories.
I was in there a few times. You know, I really hold him in
high regard in in regards to even when I'm working on
production now he's he's definitely in my thoughts when
I'm doing stuff. There's a handful of guys that

(01:27:21):
are shared enough time at those studios and, and again, it
wasn't necessarily asking questions, but I was always the
guy in the band sitting there when everybody had left.
And I would sit and watch, didn't know what a doll was, but
I'd watch them work on their doors or watch them working on
their compresses and stuff like that.
And, and so I think of guys likeJP quite often.

(01:27:41):
But like, yeah, I remember doinga session there and four piece
band and he didn't like the way the rhythm guitarist played.
And after we finished for the day, he pulled the rest of us
aside and was like, we're going to over dub those guitars, OK.
Just like, you know, he was all.About the best results.

(01:28:04):
And he got good results, you know?
Yeah. But yeah, that Bailey thing,
dude, I remember he was always rubbing his belly.
Yeah. And I feel like the.
Older, I get you meet charactersand and when you're younger,
they're like caricatures and you're like, you know, when
you're young and you meet like, I'm not talking about him at all

(01:28:27):
now I'm just talking like when, when you're coming up and you
and you meet guys you've you know, they've been on the front
lines, they've done it. They've got their stripes, you
know, and they've they've got their ways, their quirks, you
know, and and you're like these,this seems like a like a walking
caricature or whatever. And we all have these incredible
stories. And then you start catching

(01:28:51):
stories that other people tell about you, and you're like, oh,
man, like, have have I become that character?
Yeah. Am I?
Like do I do? Is it?
Is that a thing that I do? Because you know, and then you
like I'm, I'm at an age now where I'm like, just before I
logged on with you, I was, I wason the phone with art.

(01:29:14):
I'll see you and just change it.And, and, and we were, we were
talking about other stuff and, and I said to him, it's such a
bizarre thing to to be considered like a legacy artist
or a legacy act or someone that like can issue a statement of

(01:29:38):
any sort of, you know, validity,but still feel like I'm just
getting into this. I truly, truly feel like I've
got such fresh legs and I I'm, I'm, I have so much wonderment.
I have so much like childlike wonderment about songwriting and
recording and producing and and all these things and like AI,

(01:30:02):
what's that gonna do and how to utilize?
It and and. And and like, it's too young to
even go. Like, am I doing it right?
But if you're a musician or likean engineer or like an
audiophile, it is about like, what is the correct way to do
this? And someone's like grew, we're
all feeding information back into this thing.
Who knows? And you're like, no, but tell me

(01:30:24):
how it works. I want to know how you know.
So it's a very interesting time.But when I, when I, when I tell
stories about him, I'm like, I'man Asian.
I'm like, I'm, I'm going to be someone's story.
And like, what does that mean tobe?
Because you realize when you spend enough time like I did, I
spent like a decade almost everyday, you know, with, with such a

(01:30:49):
kind, generous, brilliant man in, in, in his, in his, in his
field, in his craft, You know, like really being proud of like
I, I, I know this thing. I, I put in my time and I
respected deeply. I respected enough to to keep on
learning. He made the transition from

(01:31:10):
analog. Like I said, he didn't have rose
tinted shades at all. Like when when Universal Audio
was at Luna went like, yeah, Luna was barely even announced.
And I remember walking up with the CD, he's like, Sir, did you
check what was announced? Like he was still so excited
about the new. And then I think that made him,

(01:31:31):
that made him a better of a Unicorn in terms of like he
would never listen to something he had done and be like blown
away. He was like, I know what I can
do better next time. And it fueled me because I was
on the same trajectory that that's why we were so long
together of like, you know, it doesn't matter how many times
someone pat you on the back. I think that in music and in

(01:31:53):
everything, but in music, again,because it's, it's, it's, it's
who we are. Well, we feel it's who we are.
It's so close to us that we can't say it's what we do and
separate it and sort of navigatethose highs and lows.
Like, OK, it was a good day at the office.
It was a bad day at the office. But anyways, what are we going

(01:32:13):
to throw in the BBQ? That's not it.
It's like the bad day at the office is crushing.
Good day at the office is like New Year's Eve, like like party
time, you know? And so having a bit more of a
level here in terms of like, youknow, you produce a number one
or you, you mix it this way and it's like, thank you, I receive

(01:32:37):
it and I'm, I'm so I'm so grateful for it.
But tomorrow, we do it again. And.
You do something that you like, you are so passionate and you
poured everything into it and itdoesn't even get a cough.
I did best. And tomorrow we do it again.
You know, like I think navigating those extremities
that we're all going to continuously face is, I don't

(01:32:59):
know if it's anything to impart,but it's that I.
Could only claim. That it, it's something I'm
working on and it seems to be helping me to.
I don't know if it's post COVID,I don't know why, but it just it
seems to me like gratitude is. Is like I.
Think it's the fertilizer. I'm not sure if anything great

(01:33:21):
can really come without gratitude.
I'm not agree. Sure.
I'm, I'm not sure. And I'm not talking about, you
know, being meek and mild and, and sort of like settling.
For the least. Like the of of course, I'm not
saying that don't have goals, don't be, you know, career
driven or like task orientated or like trying to achieve more

(01:33:44):
and set your goals and all of that, but along the way like the
gratitude of all of it potentially.
It is a bit of a cheat code. In terms of.
Like, you know, I don't know, maybe I'm using a stupid example
here, but like rather than, you know, sometimes, sometimes when

(01:34:05):
you you know, all those memes where you're like the, the
compressor you've been tweaking for 45 minutes is in bypass, by
the way, that's so awesome. You're like unblocking your ears
and you're like listening position and you're like, I
think it's working. That together.

(01:34:26):
I love that word too. Clue.
Rather than like you idiot, it'slike, I'm so grateful.
That like, OK, like I get it nowor, you know, you swore by a
certain plugin and then someone says to you, if you like that,
you should try this one. And then you AB it and it blows

(01:34:47):
your beloved plugin like and youput that plug in on everything
for the last year and now you'relike, what have I done?
I want to throw pure and it's like.
Like, I love that and I'm grateful that I had.
That because I didn't know better, but now I do and I'm
grateful for this other thing asopposed to like chastising

(01:35:10):
yourself. And, and I don't think there's a
bad way to insert and sprinkle atouch of gratitude in in in any
capacity because the knocks, theknocks are going to come fast
and hard and heavy. I don't wish it on anybody, but
that's just life. Life.

(01:35:30):
It's not designed to be easy. And I think expecting it to be
easy is maybe boring. You know, even when I moved up
up here, like, like I said, likeI, I didn't know that I would
have to do, have to do this. But JP's passing was so sudden,
so unexpected, literally overnight.
And, and I'd already looked at like a different property.

(01:35:52):
And it just happened that this place came up where it was like,
I never really wanted my own studio because I was always
scared that if an artist comes to me with like a vision, like a
real vision, you know, like, like there's just like, for
example, the band, like Arcade Fire, the whole band plays live
in a barn. And the barn.
Is part of the reverb that is the blue and the wall of sound

(01:36:15):
and it's like a throwback to thefull spectre thing.
And however you want to sort of mythologize it and, and, and,
and, you know, it's just gorgeous and it's been it's
incredible, right? But if someone comes to me and
goes, I want to do something like that.
But now I own a studio. So now the producer in me wants
to chase the sound and the vision and the, the gut

(01:36:36):
instinct, the artist instinct, which is like paramount.
It should be trusted above all, right?
But then it's like, but I'm now I'm also a studio owner.
So now I'm like, I kind of want them to.
So I'm like, we can get that sound at my place to a degree,
right? And then it's like all those
things that we dare not utter out loud, like how am I even

(01:36:57):
supposed to? Like where do?
I mic up. In a barn, How do I get it to
sound like a barn? Yeah, exactly.
And. So then where's my listening
position? I'm also then.
Listening in that barn with thatreverb, how am I going to trust
what I'm hearing? Because then you're like using
all these things. So I avoided having my own
space, even though I predominantly worked at a lot at
a space, but I also worked at a bunch of a bunch of other

(01:37:18):
studios because it's what that project required.
And then I. Held off on having my own.
Space largely because of the deep inadequacy and and and
anxiety and lack of self belief in my technical prowess of like
if the computer happens to update to a new.
Operating system. Overnight and I come to the

(01:37:39):
studio the next day with my clients and now none of my plug
insurance are working. I want to just hide under the
clutch. I don't know what to, you know,
so I had seen that happened so much at the best studios.
You know, you just rock up one day and it's like, guys, can you
give us 5? We don't know why the clock,
nothing's clocking. Talking to each.

(01:37:59):
Sorry, guys, can we take 5? And that would always be like,
I'm. I'm just so grateful it's not me
right now. I can just stay in my musician
Erie fairy mode. And when you guys fix the
problem, we'll be at last give us a call.
Yeah, right. You know.
So when I bought this place. And then all these like, I don't

(01:38:20):
know if you can see this, but it's like super angular.
It's like 3 bedrooms downstairs and that's my house.
And then there's like 3 rooms uphere and that's just studio,
studio. And it was, it was like I had to
just hope that there had been enough knowledge imparted to me
and that the Internet would takecare of the rest and my, my

(01:38:41):
peers and the community that would like, hold me up, you
know, and like moving from like APC based door Sequoia to like
everything else is Apple. I need to like learn logic and
I've got to like build my studioand learn a new door and like,
and engineer it myself. So all of this was like a real

(01:39:02):
exercise in the professional in me wanted to like stop the world
for two years till I'm like perfect.
And. Ready and and at the level that
I hold myself accountable to andjust life doesn't do that.
Life is like welcome to the deepend like start paddling bro.

(01:39:25):
And I just had to remind myself in moments of, like, overwhelm,
you know, like, OK, so it's likeno one wants to admit that, you
know, the people see you as a person that they go to for.
Professionality and. You know better, and you must

(01:39:47):
give advice and you must tell ushow it works and know every
iteration before we've even thought of it.
You know, and be the problem solver and that is the job.
So no one daresay I, I don't have it all figured out at this
very second, but it's a story developing in real time as quick
as I can develop it. You know, like if a bread takes

(01:40:08):
7 days. I'm doing it in seven hours.
Believe me, I'm, I'm done. I'm trying everything.
I'm trying, you know, cooking around the clock here.
And, and I figured that quickly and I, I lucked out in so many
weird, weird ways, like like nerding out on like the
acoustics of like the flooring and how I'd kind of done the

(01:40:30):
flooring here and the fact that there's no standing waves
because the low end dissipates through the floor.
And then the, the dry, the drywalling here, which kind of
became like slightly porous. It's not purely A reflective
surface and just how my speakerssound in here.
And just like a bunch of stuff that I could never have planned,
I could never have foreseen the the universe was just it was

(01:40:53):
just took care of you to. Yeah, there's no other way to
explain it because it was it came from a genuine place of
like, I like this. This space is going to is going
is going to do wonders for me. It's going to do wonders for

(01:41:16):
other people. But it's a positive thing.
It's a good thing. And I think sometimes the
intentionality of something will, will then carry you
through to the to whatever it then becomes.
And also like the doors are openbefore it's perfect, you know,
like, like, you know, opening upthe restaurant and there's still
some like wet paint escalator coming out.

(01:41:36):
And and then what's interesting is that again, couldn't have
predicted this, but then the space becomes communal in terms
of like, if everything was done by the time everybody walked in,
there wouldn't have be any room to insert somebody else's
personality. And like exactly for you as
well, because they, they like what you do, they like you and
they're like, you should do thisbecause we think that would be

(01:41:57):
cool for you. And then you allow that energy
to come in and that hopefully finds its way out the speakers
when you start working, you know, and maybe that like as we
said earlier, maybe that that's that's why we don't sound.
The same even though. We know how those records were
made and we'd nerd it out on thestudio logs and we used the same

(01:42:20):
snare from in the same mic in the same placement and the same
output gear. It wasn't on that day.
It didn't have that energy. It didn't have that spirit any
other like non tangible invisible magic magic man.
I think that's been the theme. It's.
Magic, yeah. And.
And if you believe in it, if if.You believe in it?

(01:42:41):
Yeah, I think there's something to it.
And there are people who don't believe in magic and that's also
cool. An incredible story of like,
and, and we've all heard these stories, but music is, is one of
the formats. It's one of the sources that can
actually be cut through any typeof brick wall that, that, that,

(01:43:02):
that life has built up. You know, the the summary of, of
our circumstances of our experiences.
You know, it's not a straight line and you know, not to
divulge anything, but you know, some of what we spoke about
about just life, real life before we even started in like,

(01:43:25):
you know, what, what, what you've experienced and stuff.
It's like we'd be robots if if somehow.
That. Didn't find its way into what?
Something that we create, you know, So don't call it magic,
call it something else. Put whatever word feels better
to attach to it. But it it is a it.

(01:43:51):
The word magic just means it's it's.
It's it's so. All-encompassing and and and.
So. Incredible and and and complex
and and mysterious. Mysterious is a great one.
I want to respect your time and I didn't realize.
How long we've been going? So I want to end on this last

(01:44:12):
question and it's a bit heavy, OK?
Or at least can be, I suppose. What do you think has either
been the best piece of advice you've ever been given or.
Something that could be good advice to somebody.
Else in regards to having a musical career, whether that's

(01:44:35):
as a performer or producer, a writer, a sideman, a session
musician, it's up to you. And if you want to answer both,
you can. It can be something you maybe
you were told or maybe somethingyou learned along the way,
whatever makes you comfortable. I would say that I think I've
answered that. I think that the two.
Gems that I that have just been profound for me and are also

(01:44:59):
open to anybody's interpretation, but the two ones
are just do it again that that really opened up sort of how the
the the context. And the framework of almost
everything. For me really, because if you

(01:45:21):
create something or write something or paint something or
whatever and you feel like this is the, this is the best I'll
ever do. This is the best I've done and
I'll never do anything better than this.
Just do it again. It's OK, and it might be better
than than you could have. Ever imagined or.
Or, or it might not be as as, but it'd be different and then

(01:45:44):
and it'll and it'll and it'll bedifferent to someone else.
And it's OK. It's you know, I just feel it's
helped me get over myself or what, you know, whichever, you
know, not, not to minimize anything.
And it's not like, you know, if you're in the room with an
artist and and they're like my mandolin is.

(01:46:07):
Tuned to 438 should I? Make it 440 like let me play you
both and see which one you like.And it's not just sort of like
it's OK, just like, you know, that's what I'm saying.
Like they they are like along the way, do everything like it
is your best and and and insert yourself, but but don't be

(01:46:28):
crippled by the weight of like, what is it?
What does it mean if if I can't do that again?
Or because that's just not true.It's never, it's never that just
that it's like the other thing. Yes, OK, it isn't that, but
thank goodness, because that's this other thing.
But what if I can't do that thing again?
You will do it again, do it again.

(01:46:49):
Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if it's great.
If you made a mistake, let me maybe add a little, you know,
appendix to that. If you make a terrible mistake,
maybe don't do that again. But but you know, it is 2026 and
I suppose I've got to try and anticipate every possible

(01:47:10):
repercussion, you know, and, andand I also will just say that I
stand corrected. I'm I'm please, this is I'm this
is just me talking. And the other one is go with the
goings. Good.
It's fine. That's you.

(01:47:31):
Know that your. Gut and and and civility like
like to be civil, you know and this this thin veil like just
how terrible things are in the world now maybe it's always been
terrible I don't know but it it certainly feels we're we're in a
tough time and the veil of civility is so thin anyways, you

(01:47:56):
know like to be to be proper andto be you know modern living it
it it's so fragile and when you're a kid and and you're in a
restaurant and you and you're staring at someone and and and
your parents like you know hey don't don't stay that's rude you
know you must stay or what what's actually happening there

(01:48:19):
is that you're. Being.
Taught to obviously not intentional again, like no, no
one is that's no one does that trying to hurt anybody.
It's it's to teach and this is you know, society doesn't do
that. But what's happening in a moment
like that is that you're, you'renumbing your gut.
You're, you're, you're in a way being, being being taught.

(01:48:43):
To to not. Trust your gut because we are
all born with a gut and sometimes just following our gut
against all the advice to becomea musician as an example,
everybody tells you don't do it.Your gut is just like, I can't
explain it. I am propelled forward into this
and nothing else. It doesn't even make sense to

(01:49:05):
me. It's a fire in my belly.
I run towards it, thorns and all.
OK. And then life happens, and it
isn't always great. And it's hard.
And it's. Tough and it's competitive and
it's it'll chase you and, and Are you sure this is what you
want to do? And those moments will happen
maybe on a daily basis, but a profound thing happens when,

(01:49:27):
like, you go where the going is good and you don't necessarily
subscribe that it has to be difficult.
It has to be agonizing and torturous for it to have
meaning. Of course, there are times that
that applies. Yes.
But don't also smell a rat when something just organically
blossoms and blooms in such a beautiful, quick, amazing,

(01:49:51):
positive way. Yeah, don't go.
No, no, no. This peels off.
This should. It shouldn't be this easy.
Like I shouldn't be able to write a hit or like get an
incredible drum sound just throwing the mics up.
No, I need to like. Check the phase and I need.
No, we can all get lucky. Yeah.
And then and then. We just.
Go there because it's good and dust it and follow that chase

(01:50:13):
that rabbit's tail. And then at the end of that, do
it again. Apply with a with a, with a
pinch of salt. If it if you can get something
out of it, then bless you with it.
Denim. This was such a treat for me,
man, I can't. Thank you enough for your time
and very good fortune and good luck coming your way for the
30th year anniversary of What IsIt All Comes Round.

(01:50:36):
Was that the debut record? That's a good memory, man.
Thank you man. That's I don't know what this
song. Is but.
Whatever that. It's almost like a Rosanna kind
of groove that that thing's forever in my mind.
It lives rain free in my head. I'm just like, how the freaking
hell did he do that? That that bottom triplet, you

(01:50:59):
know your brain obviously like he was.
He was like all of us. He was.
He was a drummer. That your favorite drummer's
drummer, you know, like a monster.
Yeah. Just an interesting little you
know. I I.
Also am looking at the time now,sorry it took a no man it's been
great. I'm sorry, I've taken.

(01:51:19):
Utah No, this has been. So cool.
Man, and also such an honor as. I say I, I truly, I, I didn't
ask you this and maybe maybe youdon't have an answer or you do
have an answer, but I don't evenknow how I qualified for, I
don't know your denim. It's from just 200th episode.
And it's like I said to you earlier, I made a list and.

(01:51:39):
I was like, I'm going to reach out.
And it came down between you andanother guy and the schedule
didn't work for him, but you hadgotten back to me.
We're going to still do it, him and I.
But but when you got back to me,I was like, Oh my God, you're
going to do it like amazing. Just to get back to your friend.
So that that, so that's the that's the opening song on the

(01:52:01):
first album. And it's a song called, It's a
song called Too Late. And it's like, that's it.
Like an all single. Bass drum like.
Machine, you know, like a beast.But the interesting thing about
that is that because, again, no one could have anticipated what
that album would become like. Nobody.

(01:52:24):
The record company, a big label.Major label.
Who's that? Sony BMG.
Yeah. And those drums?
Were were tracked to tape with no click and no guide on memory
at the offices of BMG. Not Unreal operators.

(01:52:46):
So where the disks and the fax machine and the prefab roofing
and like? The cables were fed.
Through the tiles, the ceiling tiles.
And he had a he had a, he had a like a 20 inch kick, like a 8

(01:53:07):
inch 8101214 yeah. And a 20 inch kick.
Wow. For a fusion record, yeah.
For a yeah. And like a. 12 inch like in
this. Chamber snail or something,
right. Piccolo or something.
Yeah, yeah, right. So imagine.
Picture the scene of like this incredible mojo pot of It

(01:53:29):
shouldn't. Work.
You know you had this right? Young 20 year old dreadlock guy
writing. Really like insightful.
Obviously cut from the. Cloth of the Cat Stevens and the
Rodgers. And so writing these incredibly
deep, like almost timeless universal human stories and

(01:53:51):
concepts in a rock band with like a funk bass player and like
the sort of like almost like jazzed kids.
So if all those elements were inand the album did nothing and
someone asked, but why did it flop?
Everything I just mentioned would be the reason.
Yeah, the album. Did what it did and when people

(01:54:13):
asked but why, they give the exact same example.
It's the spinning the play thingyou were talking about earlier.
So above all, trust your gut and.
This has been a great, very, very deep honor.
And again, I I really hope I'm worthy.
If I'm not, then you can make this episode 101 and make
someone better episode. You're not going to happen.

(01:54:36):
You're going to be episode 100. I'm sticking.
To my guns and you are more thanworthy.
I can't thank you enough for your time.
Best of luck with everything. Keep me updated with the studio
and all that and just, you know,just keep making great music
man. And you too.
You too. I'm thank you man, Really,
really. Excited and curious to please
send me stuff you're working on and I will do I'm I'm definitely

(01:54:57):
going to be deep in the subscribes and hitting the
smashing the subscribe and the like buttons and following you
and your part. And I wish you, you know, just
a, a piece during this as well, you know, and, and, and take
your time. Take your time and, and when
you're ready, we're all ready tohear what, what, what comes out.
Appreciate it brother. Thanks again.

(01:55:19):
Enjoy the rest of your. Nights, I'll talk and to you
soon. Wow there we have it. 2 huge
milestones for me here. Firstly, Denim Harding on the
show. I can't thank him enough for his
time. I can't thank you enough for
your time. If you are still enjoying these,
please do leave me a rating or review, it is greatly

(01:55:41):
appreciated. Thank you.
And secondly, 100 episodes. If you're wondering where I go
from here, you're going to have to stay tuned.
There's a few things coming up, as I mentioned at the start of
the show. Feel free to follow me on
socials or find out more about me.
Travis mark@musicians-mentor.com.
I can't thank you enough for being part of this journey with
me. I say every episode, but if

(01:56:03):
there's anything I can do to help your band, your artistic
career, or your musicianship along, please do drop me Adm,
I'd be more than happy to help. Until the next time, work hard,
be diligent, but have some fun. Peace.

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Episode 100 - Denholm Harding

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 100 - Denholm Harding