January 4, 2026 • 44 mins
In this thoughtful and deeply grounded conversation, Serena is joined by John Ball, keynote speaker, presentation coach, and host of the Present Influence Podcast, to explore what it means to be impactful — especially for introverts and quiet achievers.
John shares his unconventional journey from flight attendant to professional speaker, and how discovering coaching, communication, and improv reshaped not only his career, but his sense of self.
Together, Serena and John unpack the myth that confident speaking is about performance or extroversion, and instead reveal why presence, authenticity, and self-trust are the real foundations of influence.
In this episode, we explore:
- Why so many introverts feel most energised by quiet, nature, and solitude
- The surprising link between improvisation and confidence
- What “presence” really means when speaking or leading
- Why confidence comes from experience — not personality
- The importance of embracing the learning curve (and the dip)
- How humour and lightness create connection, even for serious thinkers
- The difference between influence and persuasion
- Why authenticity isn’t oversharing — it’s self-ownership
- How to build influence without pretending to be extroverted
- What quiet achievers need to remember when stepping into visibility
Memorable Quote
“The best speakers aren’t trying to impress — they’re trying to connect. Influence comes from being real, not from performing.”
— John Ball
Key Takeaways for Quiet Achievers
- You don’t need to be loud to be impactful — presence speaks louder than volume
- Confidence grows through practice, not perfection
- Being authentic doesn’t mean sharing everything — it means being grounded in who you are
- Influence is built through warmth, clarity, and self-trust
- The audience is usually rooting for you more than you think
- Growth requires patience — and compassion for yourself along the way
About John Ball
John Ball is a keynote speaker, presentation coach, and host of the Present Influence Podcast. He helps speakers, coaches, and leaders move from competent to captivating by developing confidence, presence, and authentic communication.
Learn more about John and his work at:
https://presentinfluence.com
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This episode was edited by Aura House Productions
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Serena Little.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial, and lack of goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith a calm, introspective, and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique, andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work, anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome.
Hello and welcome.
Today's guest on the QuietWarrior Podcast is John Ball.
John is a keynote andpresentation coach who mostly
(00:45):
works with professionalspeakers, coaches, and
leadership teams, helping theircommunication go from competent
to captivating.
John is the host of the PresentInfluence Podcast, the
professional speaking show forexperts who want to create
impact, influence, andinspiration with their talks.
John also co-hosts the CoachingClinic podcast with his good
(01:07):
friend Angie.
Welcome, John, to the QuietWarrior Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
Thank you for inviting me on, Serena.
SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
John, I would love to ask you about your
professional journey.
How did you come to do what youdo now?
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
It's a very roundabout journey, but I will
try and summarize it as best Ican for you.
I used to be a flight attendant,which is very far away from what
I do now.
But during that time, I wasintroduced to the world of
coaching by another flightattendant who did that.
And I started training as acoach.
(01:42):
This is what I want to do.
But in that journey of learningcoaching, I also discovered the
world of training andprofessional speaking.
And so it just seemed to flowand build from there that when I
saw people being able to makecareers as trainers or be able
to get on stage and be aprofessional speaker, things
that I didn't even know youcould do as a career when I was
(02:04):
growing up, I knew that that wasmaybe the frustrated actor in
me, but that was something thatI really wanted to do.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
Beautiful.
And do you consider yourself anintrovert?
Where do you sit on the spectrumof introversion and
extroversion?
SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
I've always considered myself to be an
introvert, but I've I've beengiven pause for thought more
recently.
Um I'm an introvert who candefinitely be extrovert at
times.
So I can push myself to beambivert in certain situations.
And there was recently apsychologist in the US, I think
from New York, who came up withuh a new, a new categorization
(02:46):
called Otrovert, which is reallymore for people who maybe are
more naturally introverted ingeneral, but with the right
people in the rightenvironments, feel comfortable
and confident enough to be moreextrovert and put themselves out
more.
I thought, yeah, that that doesseem to fit for me.
So yeah, I I probably couldidentify with that more, but in
(03:08):
terms of where I energize myselfmore, where I recuperate best,
it's usually by myself, peaceand quiet.
I like to be out by a lake or umreading quietly in a room, and
that energizes me more thananything else.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
It sounds like we're quite similar then.
I think I've been uh anintrovert all my life, and
reading quietly in a room is myidea of a chaos.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
Yeah.
It's bliss to me.
Uh yeah, a bit of sometimes abit of classical music in the
background, and uh yeah, just uha good book and uh a bit of
peace and quiet.
I I love it.
In fact, uh the older I get, themore I appreciate being able to
go to places outside the citywhere I live where it's where
it's peaceful, where there's notraffic noise, and you really
(03:56):
feel the tranquility that muchmore when the ambient noise
around you is not really there.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
I actually agree with you.
I've heard a lot of introvertssay that the older they get, the
more they crave that peace andquiet and they value their
energy.
And finding those places thatare soothing to the senses, that
don't overwhelm, overstimulate.
I think that's a rare thing.
And that's it's wonderful to beable to find those pockets and
(04:25):
just completely relax and nothave to do anything.
SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
You know, I I think I first really started to notice
that on my honeymoon.
This is nearly nearly 10 yearsago.
But we did we went to the umnational parks on the west coast
of the US and it was beautiful.
Honestly, I would love to dothat or something similar.
Again, there's so many nationalparks that I'd love to go to,
but it was being out in nature,being away from all the hustle
(04:52):
and bustle, having real peaceand quiet.
And then going to a cityafterwards, like we went from I
think it was from Yosemite toSan Francisco, the contrast was
actually a shock to the system.
And then we had the pandemic andwe were all locked away for
ages.
And then um, I think some partof just got used to that, used
(05:14):
to that quietness and not havingall that noise around, that it
was almost jarring when itstarted to all come back.
And and so now we actually havebought a place that's uh about
an hour and a half out of thecity, up in the mountains, near
a lake, where we can go andescape to uh weekends or for
longer breaks, and it really ispeaceful.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Oh, that's an introvert's idea of heaven.
Well done.
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
You know, your discussion about the the
pandemic has also reminded methat quite a few introverts I
know have become even moreintroverted after the pandemic.
I have had people tell me thatthey didn't feel like coming out
to socialize, to come back intothe community anymore.
They just got used to being ontheir own and they are happy in
(06:00):
their bubble.
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Yeah.
It's it's interesting to me thatI some of my coaching clients
are still very much finding thatfor themselves, that they don't
really want to come back to howthings were before, even though
most, I think most people havegone back to life pretty much as
normal, even though we allthought there was never going to
be normal again.
It it I think people were a bitmore hardy on that than we might
(06:25):
have thought.
But certainly there are manypeople who just thought, no,
actually, this is great.
I know a lot of people whoreally struggled through that
period of being a bit tooisolated.
For me, it was fine.
But someone who already had beenworking remotely for years, it
was no big deal for me to justcarry on working remotely and
(06:46):
just have a bit less of sociallife.
There were some things thatobviously wasn't particularly
thrilled about, but it didn'treally impact a lot in terms of
my work and and how I live mylife.
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
I want to talk to you about improv.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
I'm looking at the keyboard in the background, and
we were just having aconversation about jazz and jazz
versus classical, and how youknow, with classical, it's very
structured, very orderly.
And with jazz, you know, there'sso much room for improvisation,
but that doesn't come naturallyto people.
And you work in improv.
Tell me all about improv becauseI can't improv to save my life.
SPEAKER_02 (07:25):
Well, I I would use that very loosely because uh I
think most people would classifyimprov as being getting up and
doing improv comedy or improvskits.
And that's not really what I do,although I have done some of
that.
But I will do improvised talksand I will sometimes do a bit of
improvised comedy.
Um, but I tend to have improv isjust one of the things that is
(07:46):
not really something you get upand do completely unprepared.
You generally have some practicebefore you want to get up on a
stage and do that.
You have some confidence thatyou can do it, you have a sense
of where you can go and how youcan do.
But the the basic principle ofimprov in terms of performance
is the yes and philosophy, whichyou may have come across before.
(08:08):
And so it's never saying no,it's always saying yes and.
(09:45):
What do I say to myself when I'mon stage?
I'm generally not having anyconversation with myself when
I'm on there.
I tend to be very in the moment.
So I'm not stepping back fromthat.
Um, I'm very present when I'm onstage, I'm present with my
audience, and so I'm engagingwith them.
So if I'm thinking aboutanything, I might be thinking
(10:05):
about what they might bethinking, or I'm looking at
their reactions and responses aswell, and I'm I'm reacting to
that.
But that's more instinctual nowthan anything else.
I'm not having to say to myself,all right, they're uh not smart,
or they don't seem to beengaging.
Maybe I should uh do somethingto change that.
Um, it it just happens.
I I see like audiences sayingI'm responsive for a while,
(10:28):
states aren't changing,someone's maybe being a bit
disruptive somewhere, I canautomatically respond to those
things.
Whereas maybe uh early on, I hadto be a bit more conscious about
that.
So I say no, I'm not really inmy head when I go on stage.
I'm very present with beingthere and kind of want to enjoy
the experience as well ratherthan be, I think it one of those
(10:49):
things where we get if we get inour head when we're on a
platform, there's a good chancewe're gonna forget what we want
to say or distract ourselves.
Uh and so it's not generally agood place to be.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
What would you say to someone who is not yet at
that level of confidence orexperience in speaking publicly,
but they know they need to getthere for professional purposes
or just you know building theirown business and they need to be
more visible?
How do you how do you help thembe more present, more confident?
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
Yeah.
I there there are exercises wecan do to help to ground you and
to have less nurses when you goup on stage.
But ultimately, confidence isreally only going only going to
come from experience andpractice.
And so the more prepared andrehearsed you are when you go up
on a stage, the better.
Because you're going to be moreconfident that you know what
(11:44):
you're talking about, you're notgoing to forget it, you're well
prepared, you've run through itenough times.
As a fellow musician, you knowthat if you're learning a piece
of music, you're not ready toperform it until that is really
in you, until you know that youknow the music.
You don't need to look at thescore necessarily to follow it,
although you might have it therefor you know that that sort of
safety thing.
Um, but you don't need it.
(12:06):
You you know the music.
You can play the music, themusic more channels through you
than you having to consciouslythink about what notes come
next.
It's kind of in your fingers,it's in your body.
It's the same kind of feelingyou want to have when you're on
stage, but it takes time to getthere.
And I think that's what peopledon't want to have to think
about or accept is that itdoesn't just happen.
(12:28):
And it's not the case thatsomebody just gets up on stage
and is an amazing speaker.
Um, it's rare, it's very rarethat someone just gets up and
can do uh a fantastic job.
But um, it's more the case thatit's the practice that has to go
into it and it's the people whohave stuck with it longer.
Have you ever come across uh abook by Seth Godin called The
(12:50):
Dip?
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
No, I can't say I have.
SPEAKER_02 (12:54):
It's a short book and it's well worth a read.
The dip is this principle thatwhen you start doing something,
you have to, you're gonna haveto accept that there's a dip in
in your performance.
You're not gonna be that good atit for a while.
You're not gonna be wowingpeople, you're gonna be having
to learn the basics and buildyourself up on those steps of
competence to be able to getfrom the conscious incompetence
(13:17):
through to the unconsciouscompetence.
And it's quite a journey, butthere's a dip on the way there,
which means you're gonna seemlike you really don't know it or
that you're having to go reallyslow.
You've got your training wheelson, and you're not gonna feel
like a pro, you're gonna feellike a learner.
And that's the case foreverything, but we all want to
avoid the dip.
(13:38):
We all want to just be able toget up on stage.
In fact, sometimes I thinkpeople even think that they
should just be able to get upthere and do magic.
Um that there shouldn't even,that the dip doesn't even exist,
but it does.
And so if you want to be good atthis, if you feel like you need
to be greater speaking,presenting, talking on the
(13:58):
stage, you have to accept thatwhere you are now is your step
one, your level one.
And where you could be in a yearfrom now could be your level 15,
your level 20, you could be muchmore advanced if you're willing
to put in the work.
But if you just think we shouldjust show up, wing it, get on
(14:18):
stage, and should be amazing orscrape by, you're never really
going to develop.
So it is that case of havingthat lifelong student mindset of
I'm always learning, I'm alwayslooking for growth and
development.
Even now, as someone who's beenspeaking a long time, who other
people might look and say, Oh,wow, it's so easy for you.
(14:39):
It wasn't always, it wasn'talways easy for me.
And so um it you just have toaccept that there's a journey to
be taken and your level rightnow is not the same as someone
else who's 20 steps ahead of youor more, who's been doing this a
lot longer.
You do not need to be as good asthem.
(14:59):
So it's a bit of that thedifference between the fixed
mindset and the growth mindsetkind of thing is like if you're
not good at it now, it doesn'tmean you can't be good at it.
You have to grow and develop andbecome good at it.
Uh, it doesn't mean that youdon't have talent or it's not
not something you can do.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
It makes perfect sense.
And I think the introverts andquiet achievers who are
listening to this will be veryrelieved because they will
recognize themselves in there.
They are the ones with a growthmindset.
They are the ones who are thelifelong learners who turn up to
conferences and workshops with anotebook and pen all ready to
take notes.
They are the ones who whounderstand that that conscious
(15:38):
incompetence that we all face atthe start of every new thing
that we've ever tried, every newpiece of music that we're
reading.
Right.
And it takes time, like you say,it takes practice to to develop
that muscle memory where itbecomes second nature, it
becomes easy, and you actuallytranscend into another level and
it becomes a state of flow.
(15:58):
And that's a beautiful thing.
And I think that's that is verymuch related to that being
present and being in the momentthat you described.
SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Yeah, if I could add to that, the um one of the
things with more naturallyintroverted people, the quieter
people are usually the mostthoughtful, often the most
self-critical as well.
And you're probably going to befar more critical of your own
speaking, your own performancethan anyone else ever would be.
And if you if it's not, if it'snot something that you're
(16:28):
well-versed in, well experiencedin, it's maybe time to be a
little bit kinder to yourselfand to say, actually, I'm still
learning this.
I'm still at an early, it's hardto switch off the self-talk.
I know.
Um, you know, I came off from myfirst ever open mic night, spent
about two hours.
I did all right, I did allright, but uh I spent two hours
afterwards pulling apart mywhole set, and oh, that could
(16:50):
have been better.
And I had to remind myself, thatwas the first time I've ever
done it.
It's like maybe I should be abit nicer to myself about this
because I reminded myself of thedip.
It's like this, it's gonna takea while to get to a level that I
might want to be at with doingsomething like that if I'm gonna
continue with it.
So I would say that be kinder toyourself and try and uh be aware
(17:13):
of where you might becriticizing yourself unfairly.
Give yourself a break and say,you know what, I'm still
learning this.
And it's okay to not be great orto have made some mistakes, and
uh, and people are actually muchmore accepting and understanding
and supportive of these thingsthan we give them credit for.
It's us who tend to be hard onourselves.
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Yes, I agree with you.
I think the the quiet achieversare particularly hard on
themselves, very with a tendencytowards perfectionism and
needing to get it right on thefirst instance.
And some of that isconditioning, some of that is,
you know, childhood upbringing.
But the idea is that we do getbetter.
And I think just to circle backto something you said earlier
(17:53):
on, it's important not tocompare ourselves with what
other people are doing, but alsonot to have this unrealistic
picture in our minds of howquickly it should happen, and
then feeling that I should befurther along by now.
I think that's another thingthat we say to ourselves very
often.
I should be further along bynow.
(18:15):
We have this imaginary timelineor something that we aspire to
and we think it should bequicker, we should learn faster
because we've always been goodat things and we've always set
high standards.
And why is this thing so hard?
SPEAKER_02 (18:29):
Immediate gratification is a very real
thing.
We want it now.
We want it, we want to be goodnow.
We don't want to have to waitfor anything.
Um, but the things that areworth having generally are worth
waiting for and worth putting inthe time and the effort for.
You know, it's uh it's not likethe the film The Matrix, it's
kind of dated now, I guess, butyou know, you can't just plug
yourself in and download all theknowledge and be instantly
(18:51):
amazing at something.
I think even if you could plugin all the knowledge, you still
wouldn't have it physically inyour body.
You still wouldn't have it kindof programmed into yourself
physically.
Is it there is that is part ofthe flow of the application of
knowledge, the actual experiencethat you have being a part of
this as well.
But it's um yeah, definitely acase of people who want to be
(19:16):
much further ahead than they arenow, but we have to life is
lessons in patience.
It's always lessons, lessons inpatience.
And uh, we should remindourselves of that.
It's like maybe there's a lessonI need to learn about being
patient here and just acceptingthis is gonna take a bit of
time.
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
What are some of the lessons you've learned from your
time in public speaking, inimprov, in being on stage?
What are some helpful thingsthat our audience could learn?
SPEAKER_02 (19:53):
Something I often find myself talking about with
clients and on my own podcast isHow the journey into speaking
and presenting is as much of ajourney of personal
transformation as it is ofprofessional growth and
development, skills development.
Because you have to, you have tobecome so much more of yourself.
(20:18):
You have to really step intoowning who you are.
Really, you have to have a levelof vulnerability where you
accept your flaws and you don'tneed to hide from them, where
you can even have humor aroundthem and share that with an
audience and be okay talkingabout these things.
A lot of it, especially likecomedy and humor, pushes you to
(20:39):
have to reframe experiences inyour life in a funny way, to be
able to look back with a bit ofhumor.
And that can sometimes help toheal trauma in the past,
emotional trauma and the likesin the past, and to have a
different perspective on things.
It can move us to takingourselves and our lives a little
(21:00):
less seriously.
Because sometimes one of thethings that really makes life
feel heavy is that we takeeverything very seriously when
really it's all just thoughtsgoing on in our heads.
And we do have some control overthese things.
But you know, we we're supposedto take the world seriously.
We're supposed to take businessseriously.
I work with a lot of speakerswho struggle if they're coming,
(21:22):
especially coming from corporatetraining backgrounds or any kind
of corporate background, thatthey are supposed to be super
professional, they're supposedto be the business speaker,
which means they're not reallysupposed to be showing emotion,
they're supposed to be able tobe entertaining and slick on the
stage.
That's buying into what you mayhave seen other people doing and
(21:47):
what you may feel is expected ofyou.
But if you can't learn to beyourself on a stage and to let
your light shine through, yourperspectives, your humor, your
ability to shine through on astage, um, then you're gonna be
trying to be someone else.
And that's gonna be inauthentic,and you'll feel it, and your
(22:10):
audience will feel it.
Is there's gonna be a slightdisconnect there?
Um, so the best speakers, in myopinion, are the people who are
able to be authentic on stage,not to have to, not that they
have to share every aspect ofthe life, but to just be able to
be comfortable in their ownskin, know who they are, and to
express that well from the stageand to be able to talk about
(22:34):
their own challenges, to notfeel that admitting mistakes in
the past is something that putschinks in their armor and means
that they're less.
It's like it's a kind ofvulnerability that lets your
audience relate to you.
You're not, you don't need to beabove them, you don't need to be
higher than them, you need to beat their level so you can
connect and relate and be a pal,a friend to your audience.
(22:56):
The connection part is the mostimportant.
So these are all skills that wecall it soft skills, but there's
so much more to it than just uhbeing able to speak and put the
words together.
There's the performance side,there's the humor side, there's
the uh gosh, the structure, thebusiness side of it all, the
prospecting, the everything ofthe practice time rehearsals
(23:19):
that go into it all, um, that itabsolutely is uh a key skill
that you have to show up as yourbest self in.
Doesn't does that make sense?
Did I properly answer yourquestion?
SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
It does, it does.
I love that you clarified whatit means to be authentic in such
a holistic way.
Because usually when the peoplethink of I have to be authentic,
they worry that their authenticself, their original self isn't
good enough.
That even the original self hasto be curated in a certain way
to be palatable or acceptable tothe audience.
(23:51):
And I'm thinking what about whatyou said about humor as well.
Not everyone, I think, has gotthat gift of humor.
Some people are they're justreally very serious-minded and
find it hard to appreciate jokesor tell jokes.
So, what do you do in that case?
SPEAKER_02 (24:12):
Here's the thing
stage.
You you don't have to get upthere and be a comedian.
Uh, although I do think stand-upcomedy skills are a great thing
to learn and try.
I do think even a seriouspersonality can be made funny if
you're open to to doing doingit, to giving it a try.
That you could get could get upon a stage and say, I'm I'm
(24:35):
sorry for my temperament, butI've had a sense of humor bypass
or something like that.
But it would be it would befunny.
You know, you you can make ajoke about how you are.
It's like, um, you might not beable to tell by the look of my
face, but I'm really happytoday.
You know, it's like things likethat.
But it's okay, it may not havethem rolling in the aisles, you
may not be getting booked foryour Netflix comedy special, but
(24:56):
you will be entertaining youraudience and they will
appreciate it for you.
So they will love you for that.
It just makes you relatable, itmakes you human.
If you, if you're someone whoreally doesn't like jokes and
doesn't like humor and neverlaughs at anything, sure, okay,
don't do that.
It's gonna make it very hard tohave a speaking career, but it's
uh I wouldn't say it'simpossible, but uh it will make
(25:19):
it will make things challenge.
So because the entertainment isa part of professional speaking,
whether we like it or not.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
So that sounds like uh another skill to develop the
ability to be light and to findthe humor in life and
communicate that humor.
What happens when the the jokedoesn't land?
Has it ever happened to you?
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
Oh, sure, sure.
And and absolutely it's uh it'sgonna happen from time to time.
Yeah, any any comedian is gonnahave times where their whole set
bombs.
Uh a speaker may have a timewhere their uh joke doesn't
land, is that uh, but just athrowaway comment like, oh well,
I thought it was funny.
Oh well, they laughed, but theylaughed when I said that in such
and such place.
And you move on.
(25:59):
That's all you do.
You just move on.
You've done your best, it didn'twork, it didn't land that time.
Maybe it will with anotheraudience, you can try it out
again.
Or you work on it, it gives yousomething to grow and develop
from.
But but don't take it as a, ohno, I've messed up.
They didn't laugh.
It's like, yeah, some will, somewon't.
It's like sometimes we have tospend a little time figuring out
what's funny.
In my experience, though,audiences, it I think people
(26:22):
have it in their heads, maybebecause we do sometimes watch
stand-up comedy online, thatyour audience is waiting to
heckle you or to shout you out.
And it's not the case.
If you're doing a talk, youraudience wants you to be good,
they want to support you.
And so they probably will laughbecause they will at least
appreciate your attempt to breakthe break any tension or to make
(26:43):
them feel comfortable.
So they might just smile, theymight have a little light
murmur, murmur or chuckle.
Great, that's all you need.
So if you get that, you'regreat.
If you don't, move on, keepgoing.
Uh, maybe you'll find other waysto do that.
But uh it's trial and error alot of the time.
And even sometimes you think Imight have a line that nearly
(27:03):
always gets people laughing.
One time you have a kind ofaudience that doesn't, okay, you
know that that normally works,but not with that kind of
audience.
You've learned something.
SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
Yes.
And that circles back to whatyou said earlier about yes and.
So it's not yes, but it's not aclosed door, it's not personal.
And I agree with you, mostaudiences are kind, supportive,
encouraging.
They want you to succeed.
That's exactly right, becausethey don't want to feel like
their time was wasted either.
They're there to cheer you onand they are glad.
(27:39):
They're they're probably even alittle bit inspired because you
had the courage to stand upthere and bear your soul, tell
your story, be yourself, whichmost of them would not dare to
do.
So they want you to do well.
They're rooting for that.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Yeah, never underestimate how many people
are going to be in your audiencethinking, I could never do that.
I couldn't get up on stage anddo that.
Lots of them are thinking that.
And even if they don'tnecessarily like you, they
probably will respect you.
Like not everyone in youraudience is always going to like
you.
That's okay.
Not everyone should.
Um, but most people will be finewith you, and most people will
probably enjoy your presentationa far, a far lot more if you
(28:15):
don't take yourself tooseriously all of the time, and
you have a little bit ofemotional variety in there.
Uh, and that's the thing.
I think that's wherepresentations become deadly if
they're all at one emotionallevel and tone the whole way
through, it gets very hard tolisten to.
And I often say that evenShakespeare understood very well
that uh he had to put uh comicrelief in the middle of a
(28:37):
tragedy because people couldn'ttake that serious level of
tragedy for so long withoutbreaking up with something a
little bit different.
And it's very much the case intalks and presentations.
Okay, five to five to eightminutes, not so much, but
keynote talks or workshops andnice.
If you can't at least be alittle playful or lighthearted
(28:58):
about stuff for some of the timewhere it's where it feels
appropriate, um, you're gonnajust be keeping one tone and
people struggle, even in lifenaturally, to stay in one
emotional level for aparticularly long time.
We we cycle through so manydifferent emotional states in in
a day and through time.
We need to do that in a talk aswell to keep people engaged.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
So it's a recognition that the listener is
just like us, they have the samerange of human emotions, the
same ups and downs.
And so it's curating theexperience for them to have the
best possible time while theyare with us.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
It really is, Serena.
It's um a speaker, ideally, agood speaker, should always be
at their talk early.
And if there's an opportunitythat presents itself to mingle
and mix with people who areattending the talk beforehand,
you should definitely take itbecause then you are going to
have personally connected andinteracted with some of the
people in your audience.
(29:56):
You're gonna have friends andsupporters there, and they will
help to lead the rest of theaudience uh to supporting you as
well, because they've alreadyhad some connection and relation
with you.
People will maybe even look tothem to say, all right, yeah,
they're laughing, they'reclapping, whatever, and uh and
we'll follow suit.
Um, it's surprising how, youknow, there's been tests done on
(30:17):
this, uh, psychological testsdone in this, like a street
busker might not get any money,but when they've set people up
to make sure that people canother people can see that
someone's putting money in, morepeople put money in.
It's when audiences on stage aswell.
Somebody starts clapping orsomebody in the audience is
laughing, others are likely tofollow suit as well because
(30:38):
somebody has said, all right,yeah, some other others are
finding this funny.
Social cues are reallyimportant.
So if you can help warm up youraudience and get some people on
onside, as it were, you know,they already feel connected to
you, they are far more likely tobe receptive to whatever you're
saying from the stage.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
I can validate that because that just happened a
couple of weeks ago as well,with uh with an event that I was
speaking with, I was speakingat.
And I remember that becausethere were quite a number in the
audience who were people I knewpersonally ahead invited and
they showed up.
Just seeing them there alreadygave me such a boost.
And having that free eventconversation with them, there's
(31:19):
a small talk and all that, thewarm-up it made such a
difference because it it feltlike we already had a special
connection before thepresentation.
And so, and when I'm in theaudience and I'm there to
support someone that I know whois speaking, I do the same too.
It's like I love that specialconnection with a speaker.
And it makes me feel, oh, youknow, I know them and I've been
(31:42):
seen and I'm here to cheer forthem.
And so it's a very good vibewhen it happens like that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:47):
I I believe it helps the speakers as well in in so
many other ways of when you'reup on stage and you know that if
you know you've got friends inthe audience, or you know you've
connected with some people inthe audience, um, you're talking
with them.
You're not talking at them or tothem, you're talking with them.
And it's a very differenttonality.
When we're talking with friends,when we're talking with people
(32:09):
who we know, we tend to talk alittle differently.
And sometimes people get up on astage and they're really talking
at their audience or talking totheir audience, but not really
with them.
And so when we make that shift,whether it's on the stage or a
virtual stage or a podcast orwhatever, that tonal shift, that
energy shift is really importantfor the connection part of it.
(32:31):
Is that we're having aconversation, even though you
can't necessarily answer back,we're having a conversation.
And so I'm aware that there's aconversation going on in your
head, and I'm talking to that,I'm talking with you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:47):
I think it makes a lot of difference when it's a
meeting of equals in that sense,the conversation, as opposed to
an authority figure as a passiveaudience, like giving a lecture.
Yes, that the energy isdefinitely different.
You have a podcast calledPresent Influence.
What is influence and what makessomeone influential?
SPEAKER_02 (33:10):
It's uh interesting to me that one of the things
that I am kind of mad about,like I just love learning about
it, is the psychology ofinfluence and persuasion.
So influence is the ability tohave sway over other people, to
have status to some degree.
People will follow you.
Uh, it might be for what yousay, it might be for your
(33:32):
status, it could be for a numberof reasons, but there's things
about you that make youinfluential to other people that
they want to either want tofollow you, they want to um hear
more from you, they want to knowwhat you would do, how you would
do in certain situations.
That kind of stuff is influence.
So you are not actively tryingto change someone's mind with
(33:52):
influence so much as you areputting out the markers there
that you might uh you might havebody language that shows that
you are confident and that youown your space.
Great.
You know, people will that willinfluence people as well in how
they respond to you.
Um, you may have uh we say oneof the things that's key for
speakers and presenters, um, andthis this comes from research by
(34:16):
Vanessa Van Edwards and othersas well, of it critical that we
show these qualities of warmthand competence on the stage,
that we need to show warmth andcompetence, and that influences
our audience to be able to relaxaround us, to connect, to have a
vulnerability both ways with us.
That there's that kind of likewhere you can tell a story and
(34:37):
somebody afterwards will come upto say, I had something similar
happened to me.
That's the kind of thing thatshows there's deep level
connection there.
That's influence.
Uh, and so a little different topersuasion, where you are
usually with persuasion, you areactively seeking to uh change an
opinion to influence somebody'sopinion um with your own
arguments, perhaps, or um manydifferent ways we can do that,
(35:00):
but persuasion is much moreactive, whereas influence is
just this, it's more passive,it's already there, uh, and it
tends to just flow from how weshow up and who we are.
SPEAKER_01 (35:13):
It sounds to me like persuasion is what we do when we
are trying to get someone onboard with our idea, or we're
trying to get them over to ourside, and influence is how
others perceive us and how muchsway, as you said, we have over
their perspective, theiropinion.
SPEAKER_02 (35:33):
Yeah, uh, I'd say influence is the more the more
passive one, um, because wewe're generally we've already
set influence in in motion.
And um, so it is usually thingslike status, as an example of
which would be we tend to assumethat somebody wearing a white,
long white coat is medical insome way, shape, or form, even
(35:55):
if they're not.
They might be um there might beuh sometimes you see nail
technicians in long white umovercoats as well.
They're not medicalprofessionals, some might argue,
but they're not, you know, youyou're not gonna go to them to
hopefully to get a diagnosis onsomething that's wrong with you.
Um, but they're they convey thatsense of authority.
(36:17):
Somebody dressed in a sharp suitor polished business dress on
stage already has influence ofyou're making assumptions about
them.
You are saying, all right, thisis somebody who works in a
professional environment.
Um, this is somebody who showsup smart, they probably have
money, they have status.
Um, you know, one event I was atuh working at, I was selling, I
(36:40):
was uh at a personal developmentevent, um helping to sell people
into a program that was called,I think it was called something
like billionaire boot camp orsomething like that.
And uh and people just assumebecause I was there in a suit
and I was by this table that Imust be a multimillionaire or a
billionaire is like couldn't befurther from the truth, you
know.
But but the assumptions thatpeople make because they
(37:01):
associate with that, and that'sinfluence that has an effect on
how people respond to you, howpeople show up uh and how people
react in your presence, butyou're not actively doing those
things, not trying to makesomebody think that you've just
that's just the influence ofwhat actually is going on or
what's showing up.
SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
So, what would be your advice for a quiet
achiever, an introvert who wantsto elevate their influence in a
professional sense?
SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
Yeah.
I do think some of the thingsthat we've already talked about,
being yourself and beingconfident in in who you are and
having that authenticity andvulnerability to be able to be
okay with talking about thingsthat you've gone wrong with in
the past and um that you haverecovered from.
You don't want to we don't wantto open up our own wounds that
(37:50):
are still painful for us whenwe're speaking to people, but
um, but stuff that we havelearned from and developed from.
Um if we just pretend that ourour whole lives have been
perfect and we've never mademistakes, we never never done
anything we might ever need toapologize for, everybody else
knows that's not true.
So uh so there's there's reallyno point in in even trying that.
(38:11):
It's like people find it muchmore easy to relate to somebody
who has made mistakes and whohas learned from them and has
moved on, but is still perhapsfurther ahead than they are.
So I do think the the work onyourself part is one of the most
important is that thing.
If you if you don't loveyourself, if you don't like
yourself, how are other peoplegoing to do that?
(38:32):
So you do have to do some workon yourself more than anything
else uh to be authentic and toconnect.
But also think about who who youwant to be speaking to, who do
you want to be influencing, whodo you want to be impacting, and
and think about the ways inwhich you would expect somebody
who is um at the top level ofthat to how would you expect
(38:55):
them to dress?
How would you expect them toshow up?
If you were um then going tolook to somebody to admire or to
model, how would you then expectto to dress, to stand, to uh to
be, to engage on stage?
It might take a while to learnthose things, and then when you
try and be someone else, youhave to be you, your version of
(39:16):
whatever, um, and find your owntrue identity there.
But that's going to give youmuch more influence.
It is the courage to be yourselfin these environments and not to
try and fit the mold, not tryand be what other people think
you should be.
Um, not that you have to becontrarian or creating um
creating opposition withanything that you do.
(39:38):
But you you do need to bewilling to say what needs to be
said or to speak more directlyin some situations or to add
humor where everyone's being tooserious.
In again, you have to learnwhere it's appropriate and where
it's not, but it's about thenbeing able to show up as the
best version of you.
(40:00):
in as many many times as life aspossible, because far too often
we end up in situations where weare holding ourselves back.
Um because maybe other peopleare being louder or maybe we
think we're not enough yet.
Maybe we think we haven't gonefar enough.
And so we just end up holdingourselves back because we don't
think we're good enough yet.
(40:21):
And um and it is just that well,good enough now and good enough
now and keep getting better.
You are good enough, but youstill have room to grow always.
SPEAKER_01 (40:32):
And I think on that note this is a beautiful way to
wrap up this conversation.
We've talked about the courageto be yourself, which I think is
the one piece which would bereally valuable for listeners to
take away because ultimatelybeing authentic requires
courage.
We're talking about showingpeople who we are and that
(40:54):
involves being vulnerable,letting people into our inner
world.
And then you did say you knowyou don't have to overshare you
don't have to you know discloseeverything but let people see
enough of ourselves so that theycan feel this is a real person,
you know, this person has beenthrough some things they've come
out on the other side they'relearning as they go they're not
perfect.
Same as me.
You know if they can do that Ican do that too.
(41:16):
So that's hope.
We're giving them back thathope.
And you talked about having thegrowth mindset of that
continuous learning, lifelonglearning.
We never stop because there'salways room to grow.
And that is good news becauseintroverts love lifelong
learning.
And you talked about humor, thethe importance of lightness not
taking life too seriously nottaking ourselves too seriously
(41:39):
reminding other people too thatyou know in the midst of
heaviness there is also room forlaughter and you know
appreciating the the quirkinessthat happens in life.
But I think the the piece that Itook away is the connection
piece it shows up when we areself-aware, when we do that
(41:59):
inner work of personaldevelopment you said to become
the best version of ourselves.
When we are that deeplyconnected with ourselves it
makes it easier for us toconnect with other people
particularly in a publicspeaking sense when we are
creating that rapport withpeople we've never met before we
have no prior conversation orany kind of relationship with to
(42:21):
be able to connect from thatspace of equals as opposed to a
hierarchy.
I think when we are deeplyconnected to ourselves it helps
us connect to other people andit helps people to reflect and
connect with themselves toobecause they are listening and
we are being an influence andthey're taking something away
from that interaction.
(42:43):
So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
And what is the best way for people to connect with
you John I I would say I wouldencourage people to go and check
out my website it'spresentinfluence.com.
You'll find uh you'll findthere's a quiz there so you can
check your charisma you'll findlinks to the podcast episodes
you'll find what I do speakingwise what I offer coaching
everything is atpresentinfluence.com including
all my social links.
(43:05):
So that's the best way to go andfind out a bit more about me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
Brilliant.
We'll make sure to have all thelinks in the show notes.
So thank you so much John forsharing your time and your
wisdom with us today.
SPEAKER_02 (43:15):
It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (43:17):
If you enjoyed today's episode be sure to leave
a five star rating and review tohelp the Quiet Warrior podcast
reach more introverts and quietachievers around the world.
And for my recommended resourceson how to thrive as an introvert
make sure you've subscribed tothe visible introvert newsletter
at serenalo.com.au See you onthe next episode I'm so grateful
(43:40):
that you're here today.
If you found this contentvaluable please share it on your
social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Together we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this connect with
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Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
(44:03):
See you on the next episode
Hi, I'm Serena Little.
If you're used to hearing thatintroverts are shy, anxious,
antisocial, and lack of goodcommunication and leadership
skills, then this podcast is foryou.
You're about to fall in lovewith a calm, introspective, and
profound person that you are.
Discover what's fun, unique, andpowerful about being an
(00:22):
introvert and how to make theelegant transition from quiet
achiever to quiet warrior inyour life and work, anytime you
want, in more ways than youimagined possible.
Welcome.
Hello and welcome.
Today's guest on the QuietWarrior Podcast is John Ball.
John is a keynote andpresentation coach who mostly
(00:45):
works with professionalspeakers, coaches, and
leadership teams, helping theircommunication go from competent
to captivating.
John is the host of the PresentInfluence Podcast, the
professional speaking show forexperts who want to create
impact, influence, andinspiration with their talks.
John also co-hosts the CoachingClinic podcast with his good
(01:07):
friend Angie.
Welcome, John, to the QuietWarrior Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
Thank you for inviting me on, Serena.
SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
John, I would love to ask you about your
professional journey.
How did you come to do what youdo now?
SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
It's a very roundabout journey, but I will
try and summarize it as best Ican for you.
I used to be a flight attendant,which is very far away from what
I do now.
But during that time, I wasintroduced to the world of
coaching by another flightattendant who did that.
And I started training as acoach.
(01:42):
This is what I want to do.
But in that journey of learningcoaching, I also discovered the
world of training andprofessional speaking.
And so it just seemed to flowand build from there that when I
saw people being able to makecareers as trainers or be able
to get on stage and be aprofessional speaker, things
that I didn't even know youcould do as a career when I was
(02:04):
growing up, I knew that that wasmaybe the frustrated actor in
me, but that was something thatI really wanted to do.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
Beautiful.
And do you consider yourself anintrovert?
Where do you sit on the spectrumof introversion and
extroversion?
SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
I've always considered myself to be an
introvert, but I've I've beengiven pause for thought more
recently.
Um I'm an introvert who candefinitely be extrovert at
times.
So I can push myself to beambivert in certain situations.
And there was recently apsychologist in the US, I think
from New York, who came up withuh a new, a new categorization
(02:46):
called Otrovert, which is reallymore for people who maybe are
more naturally introverted ingeneral, but with the right
people in the rightenvironments, feel comfortable
and confident enough to be moreextrovert and put themselves out
more.
I thought, yeah, that that doesseem to fit for me.
So yeah, I I probably couldidentify with that more, but in
(03:08):
terms of where I energize myselfmore, where I recuperate best,
it's usually by myself, peaceand quiet.
I like to be out by a lake or umreading quietly in a room, and
that energizes me more thananything else.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
It sounds like we're quite similar then.
I think I've been uh anintrovert all my life, and
reading quietly in a room is myidea of a chaos.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
Yeah.
It's bliss to me.
Uh yeah, a bit of sometimes abit of classical music in the
background, and uh yeah, just uha good book and uh a bit of
peace and quiet.
I I love it.
In fact, uh the older I get, themore I appreciate being able to
go to places outside the citywhere I live where it's where
it's peaceful, where there's notraffic noise, and you really
(03:56):
feel the tranquility that muchmore when the ambient noise
around you is not really there.
SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
I actually agree with you.
I've heard a lot of introvertssay that the older they get, the
more they crave that peace andquiet and they value their
energy.
And finding those places thatare soothing to the senses, that
don't overwhelm, overstimulate.
I think that's a rare thing.
And that's it's wonderful to beable to find those pockets and
(04:25):
just completely relax and nothave to do anything.
SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
You know, I I think I first really started to notice
that on my honeymoon.
This is nearly nearly 10 yearsago.
But we did we went to the umnational parks on the west coast
of the US and it was beautiful.
Honestly, I would love to dothat or something similar.
Again, there's so many nationalparks that I'd love to go to,
but it was being out in nature,being away from all the hustle
(04:52):
and bustle, having real peaceand quiet.
And then going to a cityafterwards, like we went from I
think it was from Yosemite toSan Francisco, the contrast was
actually a shock to the system.
And then we had the pandemic andwe were all locked away for
ages.
And then um, I think some partof just got used to that, used
(05:14):
to that quietness and not havingall that noise around, that it
was almost jarring when itstarted to all come back.
And and so now we actually havebought a place that's uh about
an hour and a half out of thecity, up in the mountains, near
a lake, where we can go andescape to uh weekends or for
longer breaks, and it really ispeaceful.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Oh, that's an introvert's idea of heaven.
Well done.
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
You know, your discussion about the the
pandemic has also reminded methat quite a few introverts I
know have become even moreintroverted after the pandemic.
I have had people tell me thatthey didn't feel like coming out
to socialize, to come back intothe community anymore.
They just got used to being ontheir own and they are happy in
(06:00):
their bubble.
SPEAKER_02 (06:02):
Yeah.
It's it's interesting to me thatI some of my coaching clients
are still very much finding thatfor themselves, that they don't
really want to come back to howthings were before, even though
most, I think most people havegone back to life pretty much as
normal, even though we allthought there was never going to
be normal again.
It it I think people were a bitmore hardy on that than we might
(06:25):
have thought.
But certainly there are manypeople who just thought, no,
actually, this is great.
I know a lot of people whoreally struggled through that
period of being a bit tooisolated.
For me, it was fine.
But someone who already had beenworking remotely for years, it
was no big deal for me to justcarry on working remotely and
(06:46):
just have a bit less of sociallife.
There were some things thatobviously wasn't particularly
thrilled about, but it didn'treally impact a lot in terms of
my work and and how I live mylife.
SPEAKER_00 (06:58):
I want to talk to you about improv.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
I'm looking at the keyboard in the background, and
we were just having aconversation about jazz and jazz
versus classical, and how youknow, with classical, it's very
structured, very orderly.
And with jazz, you know, there'sso much room for improvisation,
but that doesn't come naturallyto people.
And you work in improv.
Tell me all about improv becauseI can't improv to save my life.
SPEAKER_02 (07:25):
Well, I I would use that very loosely because uh I
think most people would classifyimprov as being getting up and
doing improv comedy or improvskits.
And that's not really what I do,although I have done some of
that.
But I will do improvised talksand I will sometimes do a bit of
improvised comedy.
Um, but I tend to have improv isjust one of the things that is
(07:46):
not really something you get upand do completely unprepared.
You generally have some practicebefore you want to get up on a
stage and do that.
You have some confidence thatyou can do it, you have a sense
of where you can go and how youcan do.
But the the basic principle ofimprov in terms of performance
is the yes and philosophy, whichyou may have come across before.
(08:08):
And so it's never saying no,it's always saying yes and.
(09:45):
What do I say to myself when I'mon stage?
I'm generally not having anyconversation with myself when
I'm on there.
I tend to be very in the moment.
So I'm not stepping back fromthat.
Um, I'm very present when I'm onstage, I'm present with my
audience, and so I'm engagingwith them.
So if I'm thinking aboutanything, I might be thinking
(10:05):
about what they might bethinking, or I'm looking at
their reactions and responses aswell, and I'm I'm reacting to
that.
But that's more instinctual nowthan anything else.
I'm not having to say to myself,all right, they're uh not smart,
or they don't seem to beengaging.
Maybe I should uh do somethingto change that.
Um, it it just happens.
I I see like audiences sayingI'm responsive for a while,
(10:28):
states aren't changing,someone's maybe being a bit
disruptive somewhere, I canautomatically respond to those
things.
Whereas maybe uh early on, I hadto be a bit more conscious about
that.
So I say no, I'm not really inmy head when I go on stage.
I'm very present with beingthere and kind of want to enjoy
the experience as well ratherthan be, I think it one of those
(10:49):
things where we get if we get inour head when we're on a
platform, there's a good chancewe're gonna forget what we want
to say or distract ourselves.
Uh and so it's not generally agood place to be.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
What would you say to someone who is not yet at
that level of confidence orexperience in speaking publicly,
but they know they need to getthere for professional purposes
or just you know building theirown business and they need to be
more visible?
How do you how do you help thembe more present, more confident?
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
Yeah.
I there there are exercises wecan do to help to ground you and
to have less nurses when you goup on stage.
But ultimately, confidence isreally only going only going to
come from experience andpractice.
And so the more prepared andrehearsed you are when you go up
on a stage, the better.
Because you're going to be moreconfident that you know what
(11:44):
you're talking about, you're notgoing to forget it, you're well
prepared, you've run through itenough times.
As a fellow musician, you knowthat if you're learning a piece
of music, you're not ready toperform it until that is really
in you, until you know that youknow the music.
You don't need to look at thescore necessarily to follow it,
although you might have it therefor you know that that sort of
safety thing.
Um, but you don't need it.
(12:06):
You you know the music.
You can play the music, themusic more channels through you
than you having to consciouslythink about what notes come
next.
It's kind of in your fingers,it's in your body.
It's the same kind of feelingyou want to have when you're on
stage, but it takes time to getthere.
And I think that's what peopledon't want to have to think
about or accept is that itdoesn't just happen.
(12:28):
And it's not the case thatsomebody just gets up on stage
and is an amazing speaker.
Um, it's rare, it's very rarethat someone just gets up and
can do uh a fantastic job.
But um, it's more the case thatit's the practice that has to go
into it and it's the people whohave stuck with it longer.
Have you ever come across uh abook by Seth Godin called The
(12:50):
Dip?
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
No, I can't say I have.
SPEAKER_02 (12:54):
It's a short book and it's well worth a read.
The dip is this principle thatwhen you start doing something,
you have to, you're gonna haveto accept that there's a dip in
in your performance.
You're not gonna be that good atit for a while.
You're not gonna be wowingpeople, you're gonna be having
to learn the basics and buildyourself up on those steps of
competence to be able to getfrom the conscious incompetence
(13:17):
through to the unconsciouscompetence.
And it's quite a journey, butthere's a dip on the way there,
which means you're gonna seemlike you really don't know it or
that you're having to go reallyslow.
You've got your training wheelson, and you're not gonna feel
like a pro, you're gonna feellike a learner.
And that's the case foreverything, but we all want to
avoid the dip.
(13:38):
We all want to just be able toget up on stage.
In fact, sometimes I thinkpeople even think that they
should just be able to get upthere and do magic.
Um that there shouldn't even,that the dip doesn't even exist,
but it does.
And so if you want to be good atthis, if you feel like you need
to be greater speaking,presenting, talking on the
(13:58):
stage, you have to accept thatwhere you are now is your step
one, your level one.
And where you could be in a yearfrom now could be your level 15,
your level 20, you could be muchmore advanced if you're willing
to put in the work.
But if you just think we shouldjust show up, wing it, get on
(14:18):
stage, and should be amazing orscrape by, you're never really
going to develop.
So it is that case of havingthat lifelong student mindset of
I'm always learning, I'm alwayslooking for growth and
development.
Even now, as someone who's beenspeaking a long time, who other
people might look and say, Oh,wow, it's so easy for you.
(14:39):
It wasn't always, it wasn'talways easy for me.
And so um it you just have toaccept that there's a journey to
be taken and your level rightnow is not the same as someone
else who's 20 steps ahead of youor more, who's been doing this a
lot longer.
You do not need to be as good asthem.
(14:59):
So it's a bit of that thedifference between the fixed
mindset and the growth mindsetkind of thing is like if you're
not good at it now, it doesn'tmean you can't be good at it.
You have to grow and develop andbecome good at it.
Uh, it doesn't mean that youdon't have talent or it's not
not something you can do.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
It makes perfect sense.
And I think the introverts andquiet achievers who are
listening to this will be veryrelieved because they will
recognize themselves in there.
They are the ones with a growthmindset.
They are the ones who are thelifelong learners who turn up to
conferences and workshops with anotebook and pen all ready to
take notes.
They are the ones who whounderstand that that conscious
(15:38):
incompetence that we all face atthe start of every new thing
that we've ever tried, every newpiece of music that we're
reading.
Right.
And it takes time, like you say,it takes practice to to develop
that muscle memory where itbecomes second nature, it
becomes easy, and you actuallytranscend into another level and
it becomes a state of flow.
(15:58):
And that's a beautiful thing.
And I think that's that is verymuch related to that being
present and being in the momentthat you described.
SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Yeah, if I could add to that, the um one of the
things with more naturallyintroverted people, the quieter
people are usually the mostthoughtful, often the most
self-critical as well.
And you're probably going to befar more critical of your own
speaking, your own performancethan anyone else ever would be.
And if you if it's not, if it'snot something that you're
(16:28):
well-versed in, well experiencedin, it's maybe time to be a
little bit kinder to yourselfand to say, actually, I'm still
learning this.
I'm still at an early, it's hardto switch off the self-talk.
I know.
Um, you know, I came off from myfirst ever open mic night, spent
about two hours.
I did all right, I did allright, but uh I spent two hours
afterwards pulling apart mywhole set, and oh, that could
(16:50):
have been better.
And I had to remind myself, thatwas the first time I've ever
done it.
It's like maybe I should be abit nicer to myself about this
because I reminded myself of thedip.
It's like this, it's gonna takea while to get to a level that I
might want to be at with doingsomething like that if I'm gonna
continue with it.
So I would say that be kinder toyourself and try and uh be aware
(17:13):
of where you might becriticizing yourself unfairly.
Give yourself a break and say,you know what, I'm still
learning this.
And it's okay to not be great orto have made some mistakes, and
uh, and people are actually muchmore accepting and understanding
and supportive of these thingsthan we give them credit for.
It's us who tend to be hard onourselves.
SPEAKER_01 (17:33):
Yes, I agree with you.
I think the the quiet achieversare particularly hard on
themselves, very with a tendencytowards perfectionism and
needing to get it right on thefirst instance.
And some of that isconditioning, some of that is,
you know, childhood upbringing.
But the idea is that we do getbetter.
And I think just to circle backto something you said earlier
(17:53):
on, it's important not tocompare ourselves with what
other people are doing, but alsonot to have this unrealistic
picture in our minds of howquickly it should happen, and
then feeling that I should befurther along by now.
I think that's another thingthat we say to ourselves very
often.
I should be further along bynow.
(18:15):
We have this imaginary timelineor something that we aspire to
and we think it should bequicker, we should learn faster
because we've always been goodat things and we've always set
high standards.
And why is this thing so hard?
SPEAKER_02 (18:29):
Immediate gratification is a very real
thing.
We want it now.
We want it, we want to be goodnow.
We don't want to have to waitfor anything.
Um, but the things that areworth having generally are worth
waiting for and worth putting inthe time and the effort for.
You know, it's uh it's not likethe the film The Matrix, it's
kind of dated now, I guess, butyou know, you can't just plug
yourself in and download all theknowledge and be instantly
(18:51):
amazing at something.
I think even if you could plugin all the knowledge, you still
wouldn't have it physically inyour body.
You still wouldn't have it kindof programmed into yourself
physically.
Is it there is that is part ofthe flow of the application of
knowledge, the actual experiencethat you have being a part of
this as well.
But it's um yeah, definitely acase of people who want to be
(19:16):
much further ahead than they arenow, but we have to life is
lessons in patience.
It's always lessons, lessons inpatience.
And uh, we should remindourselves of that.
It's like maybe there's a lessonI need to learn about being
patient here and just acceptingthis is gonna take a bit of
time.
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
What are some of the lessons you've learned from your
time in public speaking, inimprov, in being on stage?
What are some helpful thingsthat our audience could learn?
SPEAKER_02 (19:53):
Something I often find myself talking about with
clients and on my own podcast isHow the journey into speaking
and presenting is as much of ajourney of personal
transformation as it is ofprofessional growth and
development, skills development.
Because you have to, you have tobecome so much more of yourself.
(20:18):
You have to really step intoowning who you are.
Really, you have to have a levelof vulnerability where you
accept your flaws and you don'tneed to hide from them, where
you can even have humor aroundthem and share that with an
audience and be okay talkingabout these things.
A lot of it, especially likecomedy and humor, pushes you to
(20:39):
have to reframe experiences inyour life in a funny way, to be
able to look back with a bit ofhumor.
And that can sometimes help toheal trauma in the past,
emotional trauma and the likesin the past, and to have a
different perspective on things.
It can move us to takingourselves and our lives a little
(21:00):
less seriously.
Because sometimes one of thethings that really makes life
feel heavy is that we takeeverything very seriously when
really it's all just thoughtsgoing on in our heads.
And we do have some control overthese things.
But you know, we we're supposedto take the world seriously.
We're supposed to take businessseriously.
I work with a lot of speakerswho struggle if they're coming,
(21:22):
especially coming from corporatetraining backgrounds or any kind
of corporate background, thatthey are supposed to be super
professional, they're supposedto be the business speaker,
which means they're not reallysupposed to be showing emotion,
they're supposed to be able tobe entertaining and slick on the
stage.
That's buying into what you mayhave seen other people doing and
(21:47):
what you may feel is expected ofyou.
But if you can't learn to beyourself on a stage and to let
your light shine through, yourperspectives, your humor, your
ability to shine through on astage, um, then you're gonna be
trying to be someone else.
And that's gonna be inauthentic,and you'll feel it, and your
(22:10):
audience will feel it.
Is there's gonna be a slightdisconnect there?
Um, so the best speakers, in myopinion, are the people who are
able to be authentic on stage,not to have to, not that they
have to share every aspect ofthe life, but to just be able to
be comfortable in their ownskin, know who they are, and to
express that well from the stageand to be able to talk about
(22:34):
their own challenges, to notfeel that admitting mistakes in
the past is something that putschinks in their armor and means
that they're less.
It's like it's a kind ofvulnerability that lets your
audience relate to you.
You're not, you don't need to beabove them, you don't need to be
higher than them, you need to beat their level so you can
connect and relate and be a pal,a friend to your audience.
(22:56):
The connection part is the mostimportant.
So these are all skills that wecall it soft skills, but there's
so much more to it than just uhbeing able to speak and put the
words together.
There's the performance side,there's the humor side, there's
the uh gosh, the structure, thebusiness side of it all, the
prospecting, the everything ofthe practice time rehearsals
(23:19):
that go into it all, um, that itabsolutely is uh a key skill
that you have to show up as yourbest self in.
Doesn't does that make sense?
Did I properly answer yourquestion?
SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
It does, it does.
I love that you clarified whatit means to be authentic in such
a holistic way.
Because usually when the peoplethink of I have to be authentic,
they worry that their authenticself, their original self isn't
good enough.
That even the original self hasto be curated in a certain way
to be palatable or acceptable tothe audience.
(23:51):
And I'm thinking what about whatyou said about humor as well.
Not everyone, I think, has gotthat gift of humor.
Some people are they're justreally very serious-minded and
find it hard to appreciate jokesor tell jokes.
So, what do you do in that case?
SPEAKER_02 (24:12):
Here's the thing
stage.
You you don't have to get upthere and be a comedian.
Uh, although I do think stand-upcomedy skills are a great thing
to learn and try.
I do think even a seriouspersonality can be made funny if
you're open to to doing doingit, to giving it a try.
That you could get could get upon a stage and say, I'm I'm
(24:35):
sorry for my temperament, butI've had a sense of humor bypass
or something like that.
But it would be it would befunny.
You know, you you can make ajoke about how you are.
It's like, um, you might not beable to tell by the look of my
face, but I'm really happytoday.
You know, it's like things likethat.
But it's okay, it may not havethem rolling in the aisles, you
may not be getting booked foryour Netflix comedy special, but
(24:56):
you will be entertaining youraudience and they will
appreciate it for you.
So they will love you for that.
It just makes you relatable, itmakes you human.
If you, if you're someone whoreally doesn't like jokes and
doesn't like humor and neverlaughs at anything, sure, okay,
don't do that.
It's gonna make it very hard tohave a speaking career, but it's
uh I wouldn't say it'simpossible, but uh it will make
(25:19):
it will make things challenge.
So because the entertainment isa part of professional speaking,
whether we like it or not.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
So that sounds like uh another skill to develop the
ability to be light and to findthe humor in life and
communicate that humor.
What happens when the the jokedoesn't land?
Has it ever happened to you?
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
Oh, sure, sure.
And and absolutely it's uh it'sgonna happen from time to time.
Yeah, any any comedian is gonnahave times where their whole set
bombs.
Uh a speaker may have a timewhere their uh joke doesn't
land, is that uh, but just athrowaway comment like, oh well,
I thought it was funny.
Oh well, they laughed, but theylaughed when I said that in such
and such place.
And you move on.
(25:59):
That's all you do.
You just move on.
You've done your best, it didn'twork, it didn't land that time.
Maybe it will with anotheraudience, you can try it out
again.
Or you work on it, it gives yousomething to grow and develop
from.
But but don't take it as a, ohno, I've messed up.
They didn't laugh.
It's like, yeah, some will, somewon't.
It's like sometimes we have tospend a little time figuring out
what's funny.
In my experience, though,audiences, it I think people
(26:22):
have it in their heads, maybebecause we do sometimes watch
stand-up comedy online, thatyour audience is waiting to
heckle you or to shout you out.
And it's not the case.
If you're doing a talk, youraudience wants you to be good,
they want to support you.
And so they probably will laughbecause they will at least
appreciate your attempt to breakthe break any tension or to make
(26:43):
them feel comfortable.
So they might just smile, theymight have a little light
murmur, murmur or chuckle.
Great, that's all you need.
So if you get that, you'regreat.
If you don't, move on, keepgoing.
Uh, maybe you'll find other waysto do that.
But uh it's trial and error alot of the time.
And even sometimes you think Imight have a line that nearly
(27:03):
always gets people laughing.
One time you have a kind ofaudience that doesn't, okay, you
know that that normally works,but not with that kind of
audience.
You've learned something.
SPEAKER_01 (27:15):
Yes.
And that circles back to whatyou said earlier about yes and.
So it's not yes, but it's not aclosed door, it's not personal.
And I agree with you, mostaudiences are kind, supportive,
encouraging.
They want you to succeed.
That's exactly right, becausethey don't want to feel like
their time was wasted either.
They're there to cheer you onand they are glad.
(27:39):
They're they're probably even alittle bit inspired because you
had the courage to stand upthere and bear your soul, tell
your story, be yourself, whichmost of them would not dare to
do.
So they want you to do well.
They're rooting for that.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Yeah, never underestimate how many people
are going to be in your audiencethinking, I could never do that.
I couldn't get up on stage anddo that.
Lots of them are thinking that.
And even if they don'tnecessarily like you, they
probably will respect you.
Like not everyone in youraudience is always going to like
you.
That's okay.
Not everyone should.
Um, but most people will be finewith you, and most people will
probably enjoy your presentationa far, a far lot more if you
(28:15):
don't take yourself tooseriously all of the time, and
you have a little bit ofemotional variety in there.
Uh, and that's the thing.
I think that's wherepresentations become deadly if
they're all at one emotionallevel and tone the whole way
through, it gets very hard tolisten to.
And I often say that evenShakespeare understood very well
that uh he had to put uh comicrelief in the middle of a
(28:37):
tragedy because people couldn'ttake that serious level of
tragedy for so long withoutbreaking up with something a
little bit different.
And it's very much the case intalks and presentations.
Okay, five to five to eightminutes, not so much, but
keynote talks or workshops andnice.
If you can't at least be alittle playful or lighthearted
(28:58):
about stuff for some of the timewhere it's where it feels
appropriate, um, you're gonnajust be keeping one tone and
people struggle, even in lifenaturally, to stay in one
emotional level for aparticularly long time.
We we cycle through so manydifferent emotional states in in
a day and through time.
We need to do that in a talk aswell to keep people engaged.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
So it's a recognition that the listener is
just like us, they have the samerange of human emotions, the
same ups and downs.
And so it's curating theexperience for them to have the
best possible time while theyare with us.
SPEAKER_02 (29:36):
It really is, Serena.
It's um a speaker, ideally, agood speaker, should always be
at their talk early.
And if there's an opportunitythat presents itself to mingle
and mix with people who areattending the talk beforehand,
you should definitely take itbecause then you are going to
have personally connected andinteracted with some of the
people in your audience.
(29:56):
You're gonna have friends andsupporters there, and they will
help to lead the rest of theaudience uh to supporting you as
well, because they've alreadyhad some connection and relation
with you.
People will maybe even look tothem to say, all right, yeah,
they're laughing, they'reclapping, whatever, and uh and
we'll follow suit.
Um, it's surprising how, youknow, there's been tests done on
(30:17):
this, uh, psychological testsdone in this, like a street
busker might not get any money,but when they've set people up
to make sure that people canother people can see that
someone's putting money in, morepeople put money in.
It's when audiences on stage aswell.
Somebody starts clapping orsomebody in the audience is
laughing, others are likely tofollow suit as well because
(30:38):
somebody has said, all right,yeah, some other others are
finding this funny.
Social cues are reallyimportant.
So if you can help warm up youraudience and get some people on
onside, as it were, you know,they already feel connected to
you, they are far more likely tobe receptive to whatever you're
saying from the stage.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
I can validate that because that just happened a
couple of weeks ago as well,with uh with an event that I was
speaking with, I was speakingat.
And I remember that becausethere were quite a number in the
audience who were people I knewpersonally ahead invited and
they showed up.
Just seeing them there alreadygave me such a boost.
And having that free eventconversation with them, there's
(31:19):
a small talk and all that, thewarm-up it made such a
difference because it it feltlike we already had a special
connection before thepresentation.
And so, and when I'm in theaudience and I'm there to
support someone that I know whois speaking, I do the same too.
It's like I love that specialconnection with a speaker.
And it makes me feel, oh, youknow, I know them and I've been
(31:42):
seen and I'm here to cheer forthem.
And so it's a very good vibewhen it happens like that.
SPEAKER_02 (31:47):
I I believe it helps the speakers as well in in so
many other ways of when you'reup on stage and you know that if
you know you've got friends inthe audience, or you know you've
connected with some people inthe audience, um, you're talking
with them.
You're not talking at them or tothem, you're talking with them.
And it's a very differenttonality.
When we're talking with friends,when we're talking with people
(32:09):
who we know, we tend to talk alittle differently.
And sometimes people get up on astage and they're really talking
at their audience or talking totheir audience, but not really
with them.
And so when we make that shift,whether it's on the stage or a
virtual stage or a podcast orwhatever, that tonal shift, that
energy shift is really importantfor the connection part of it.
(32:31):
Is that we're having aconversation, even though you
can't necessarily answer back,we're having a conversation.
And so I'm aware that there's aconversation going on in your
head, and I'm talking to that,I'm talking with you.
SPEAKER_01 (32:47):
I think it makes a lot of difference when it's a
meeting of equals in that sense,the conversation, as opposed to
an authority figure as a passiveaudience, like giving a lecture.
Yes, that the energy isdefinitely different.
You have a podcast calledPresent Influence.
What is influence and what makessomeone influential?
SPEAKER_02 (33:10):
It's uh interesting to me that one of the things
that I am kind of mad about,like I just love learning about
it, is the psychology ofinfluence and persuasion.
So influence is the ability tohave sway over other people, to
have status to some degree.
People will follow you.
Uh, it might be for what yousay, it might be for your
(33:32):
status, it could be for a numberof reasons, but there's things
about you that make youinfluential to other people that
they want to either want tofollow you, they want to um hear
more from you, they want to knowwhat you would do, how you would
do in certain situations.
That kind of stuff is influence.
So you are not actively tryingto change someone's mind with
(33:52):
influence so much as you areputting out the markers there
that you might uh you might havebody language that shows that
you are confident and that youown your space.
Great.
You know, people will that willinfluence people as well in how
they respond to you.
Um, you may have uh we say oneof the things that's key for
speakers and presenters, um, andthis this comes from research by
(34:16):
Vanessa Van Edwards and othersas well, of it critical that we
show these qualities of warmthand competence on the stage,
that we need to show warmth andcompetence, and that influences
our audience to be able to relaxaround us, to connect, to have a
vulnerability both ways with us.
That there's that kind of likewhere you can tell a story and
(34:37):
somebody afterwards will come upto say, I had something similar
happened to me.
That's the kind of thing thatshows there's deep level
connection there.
That's influence.
Uh, and so a little different topersuasion, where you are
usually with persuasion, you areactively seeking to uh change an
opinion to influence somebody'sopinion um with your own
arguments, perhaps, or um manydifferent ways we can do that,
(35:00):
but persuasion is much moreactive, whereas influence is
just this, it's more passive,it's already there, uh, and it
tends to just flow from how weshow up and who we are.
SPEAKER_01 (35:13):
It sounds to me like persuasion is what we do when we
are trying to get someone onboard with our idea, or we're
trying to get them over to ourside, and influence is how
others perceive us and how muchsway, as you said, we have over
their perspective, theiropinion.
SPEAKER_02 (35:33):
Yeah, uh, I'd say influence is the more the more
passive one, um, because wewe're generally we've already
set influence in in motion.
And um, so it is usually thingslike status, as an example of
which would be we tend to assumethat somebody wearing a white,
long white coat is medical insome way, shape, or form, even
(35:55):
if they're not.
They might be um there might beuh sometimes you see nail
technicians in long white umovercoats as well.
They're not medicalprofessionals, some might argue,
but they're not, you know, youyou're not gonna go to them to
hopefully to get a diagnosis onsomething that's wrong with you.
Um, but they're they convey thatsense of authority.
(36:17):
Somebody dressed in a sharp suitor polished business dress on
stage already has influence ofyou're making assumptions about
them.
You are saying, all right, thisis somebody who works in a
professional environment.
Um, this is somebody who showsup smart, they probably have
money, they have status.
Um, you know, one event I was atuh working at, I was selling, I
(36:40):
was uh at a personal developmentevent, um helping to sell people
into a program that was called,I think it was called something
like billionaire boot camp orsomething like that.
And uh and people just assumebecause I was there in a suit
and I was by this table that Imust be a multimillionaire or a
billionaire is like couldn't befurther from the truth, you
know.
But but the assumptions thatpeople make because they
(37:01):
associate with that, and that'sinfluence that has an effect on
how people respond to you, howpeople show up uh and how people
react in your presence, butyou're not actively doing those
things, not trying to makesomebody think that you've just
that's just the influence ofwhat actually is going on or
what's showing up.
SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
So, what would be your advice for a quiet
achiever, an introvert who wantsto elevate their influence in a
professional sense?
SPEAKER_02 (37:30):
Yeah.
I do think some of the thingsthat we've already talked about,
being yourself and beingconfident in in who you are and
having that authenticity andvulnerability to be able to be
okay with talking about thingsthat you've gone wrong with in
the past and um that you haverecovered from.
You don't want to we don't wantto open up our own wounds that
(37:50):
are still painful for us whenwe're speaking to people, but
um, but stuff that we havelearned from and developed from.
Um if we just pretend that ourour whole lives have been
perfect and we've never mademistakes, we never never done
anything we might ever need toapologize for, everybody else
knows that's not true.
So uh so there's there's reallyno point in in even trying that.
(38:11):
It's like people find it muchmore easy to relate to somebody
who has made mistakes and whohas learned from them and has
moved on, but is still perhapsfurther ahead than they are.
So I do think the the work onyourself part is one of the most
important is that thing.
If you if you don't loveyourself, if you don't like
yourself, how are other peoplegoing to do that?
(38:32):
So you do have to do some workon yourself more than anything
else uh to be authentic and toconnect.
But also think about who who youwant to be speaking to, who do
you want to be influencing, whodo you want to be impacting, and
and think about the ways inwhich you would expect somebody
who is um at the top level ofthat to how would you expect
(38:55):
them to dress?
How would you expect them toshow up?
If you were um then going tolook to somebody to admire or to
model, how would you then expectto to dress, to stand, to uh to
be, to engage on stage?
It might take a while to learnthose things, and then when you
try and be someone else, youhave to be you, your version of
(39:16):
whatever, um, and find your owntrue identity there.
But that's going to give youmuch more influence.
It is the courage to be yourselfin these environments and not to
try and fit the mold, not tryand be what other people think
you should be.
Um, not that you have to becontrarian or creating um
creating opposition withanything that you do.
(39:38):
But you you do need to bewilling to say what needs to be
said or to speak more directlyin some situations or to add
humor where everyone's being tooserious.
In again, you have to learnwhere it's appropriate and where
it's not, but it's about thenbeing able to show up as the
best version of you.
(40:00):
in as many many times as life aspossible, because far too often
we end up in situations where weare holding ourselves back.
Um because maybe other peopleare being louder or maybe we
think we're not enough yet.
Maybe we think we haven't gonefar enough.
And so we just end up holdingourselves back because we don't
think we're good enough yet.
(40:21):
And um and it is just that well,good enough now and good enough
now and keep getting better.
You are good enough, but youstill have room to grow always.
SPEAKER_01 (40:32):
And I think on that note this is a beautiful way to
wrap up this conversation.
We've talked about the courageto be yourself, which I think is
the one piece which would bereally valuable for listeners to
take away because ultimatelybeing authentic requires
courage.
We're talking about showingpeople who we are and that
(40:54):
involves being vulnerable,letting people into our inner
world.
And then you did say you knowyou don't have to overshare you
don't have to you know discloseeverything but let people see
enough of ourselves so that theycan feel this is a real person,
you know, this person has beenthrough some things they've come
out on the other side they'relearning as they go they're not
perfect.
Same as me.
You know if they can do that Ican do that too.
(41:16):
So that's hope.
We're giving them back thathope.
And you talked about having thegrowth mindset of that
continuous learning, lifelonglearning.
We never stop because there'salways room to grow.
And that is good news becauseintroverts love lifelong
learning.
And you talked about humor, thethe importance of lightness not
taking life too seriously nottaking ourselves too seriously
(41:39):
reminding other people too thatyou know in the midst of
heaviness there is also room forlaughter and you know
appreciating the the quirkinessthat happens in life.
But I think the the piece that Itook away is the connection
piece it shows up when we areself-aware, when we do that
(41:59):
inner work of personaldevelopment you said to become
the best version of ourselves.
When we are that deeplyconnected with ourselves it
makes it easier for us toconnect with other people
particularly in a publicspeaking sense when we are
creating that rapport withpeople we've never met before we
have no prior conversation orany kind of relationship with to
(42:21):
be able to connect from thatspace of equals as opposed to a
hierarchy.
I think when we are deeplyconnected to ourselves it helps
us connect to other people andit helps people to reflect and
connect with themselves toobecause they are listening and
we are being an influence andthey're taking something away
from that interaction.
(42:43):
So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02 (42:44):
And what is the best way for people to connect with
you John I I would say I wouldencourage people to go and check
out my website it'spresentinfluence.com.
You'll find uh you'll findthere's a quiz there so you can
check your charisma you'll findlinks to the podcast episodes
you'll find what I do speakingwise what I offer coaching
everything is atpresentinfluence.com including
all my social links.
(43:05):
So that's the best way to go andfind out a bit more about me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
Brilliant.
We'll make sure to have all thelinks in the show notes.
So thank you so much John forsharing your time and your
wisdom with us today.
SPEAKER_02 (43:15):
It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (43:17):
If you enjoyed today's episode be sure to leave
a five star rating and review tohelp the Quiet Warrior podcast
reach more introverts and quietachievers around the world.
And for my recommended resourceson how to thrive as an introvert
make sure you've subscribed tothe visible introvert newsletter
at serenalo.com.au See you onthe next episode I'm so grateful
(43:40):
that you're here today.
If you found this contentvaluable please share it on your
social media channels andsubscribe to the show on your
favorite listening platform.
Together we can help moreintroverts thrive.
To receive more upliftingcontent like this connect with
me on Instagram at SerenaloQuietWarrior Coach.
Thank you for sharing your timeand your energy with me.
(44:03):
See you on the next episode
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