March 1, 2024 • 41 mins
In this episode, Shiloh OPC, Raleigh, NC Deacon and CDM member Tim Hopper welcomes Dr. Jim Newheiser, professor at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, NC and author of the book, "Money, Debt and Finances: Critical Questions and Answers."
Dr. Newheiser says the goal of his book is to bring together finance, accounting, and investing with a Biblical perspective that is rooted in sound theology. "I really believe in the sufficiency of Scripture to guide us in life," he says. In this episode, Dr. Newheiser wisely points out that we have freedom to spend money, "and we can't tell someone how to spend, but to use godly wisdom. So much of our life involves our vocation, our responsibility to provide, [and] our stewardship of the resources God has given us."
Referenced in this episode:
"Money, Debt and Finances: Critical Questions and Answers" by Dr. Jim Newheiser
Review of "Money, Debt and Finances: Critical Questions and Answers" from New Horizons December 2021
Financial Crisis: What to Do When the Bottom Drops Out by Jim Newheiser
Money: Seeking God's Wisdom (31-Day Devotionals for Life) by Jim Newheiser
How to Love Difficult Parents: Wisdom for a Challenging Relationship by Jim Newheiser
The Institue for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship
You can find all of our episodes at thereformeddeacon.org. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast player, so you don't miss an episode. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram for giveaways and more information. Find other resources on OPCCDM.org. Make sure to send us some feedback on your podcast player or ask a diaconal question by going to OPCCDM.org.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (00:00):
So I guess one thing that struck me the
most was how often you comeacross something where the Bible
gives principles of wisdom thatwe have to apply with a realm
of freedom, and even incounseling, not to tell people
exactly what they must do in aparticular situation.
David Nakhla (00:18):
Welcome to The Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
Tim Hopper (00:38):
I'm Tim Hopper, a deacon at Shiloh Presbyterian
Church in Raleigh, NorthCarolina.
On today's podcast, I'm joinedby a special guest, Dr Jim
Newheiser, who is the directorof the Christian counseling
program and a professor ofPastoral Theology at Reformed
Theological Seminary inCharlotte, North Carolina.
Dr.
Newheiser is the author ofseveral books, including the one
we're going to discuss today,"Money, Debt, and Finances
(01:01):
Critical Questions and Answers".
This is a book that's veryuseful for deacons and we asked
him to come on the podcast todiscuss it with us.
Welcome, Dr.
Newheiser.
Thanks, glad to be with you.
Can you share a little bit ofthe background of this book?
You have your own uniquebackground that may be something
people wouldn't expect and thathas helped lead to the writing
of this book.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (01:23):
I majored in accounting and finance and
management at University andspent the first several years of
my career working withcomputers and finance and
accounting, originally forwhat's called Accenture, and
then what was what is ExxonMobil, and also, had experiences in
(01:47):
my 20s where we worked overseasand were able to save money and
also watching what people didwhen they were making more money
than they ever had in theirlives.
As we saved money, we're veryyoung, or made a lot of money,
at least for us at the time.
We had to learn to manage itand it became just an area of
interest of mine.
Now, I would add, the wholetime I was also very involved in
(02:11):
ministry.
We were actually in SaudiArabia where I was pastoring a
group while I was doing my workwith the computers and the
finance stuff.
But I had a desire from many,many years before to try to
bring together the background infinance, accounting, investing
(02:31):
along with a Biblicalperspective that would be rooted
in sound theology.
I heard about Dave Ramsey manyyears ago and I think many
people like his very practicaland also folksy advice that he
gives.
But even the way I pitched itto the publisher I would like to
(02:51):
provide Kind of Dave Ramsey butwith exegesis and theology, and
also there's some things inDave Ramsey that I think are a
bit legalistic, and so I thinkwe need to point out here's what
the Bible says we must do like,we must work, we must give, but
then I think that we also havea lot of freedom and some
(03:13):
matters where he can be a littlemore strict.
Tim Hopper (03:17):
Yeah, that's helpful .
What are or what audience didyou have in mind as you're
writing it?
It's it's not an academic, knowp ublication, it's very
practical.
Is that—— I assume that was thegoal going into it.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (03:30):
Sure, yeah, and even though I teach at a
seminary, I don't feel like I'mthe academic guy.
I think I'm an ordinary pastorand I'm now teaching future
ordinary pastors and counselors.
So I think that the audiencewould be the same mainstream
audience for other practicalChristian books.
Money is an issue that you knowaffects everybody and I would
(03:55):
say, you know, I would hopepeople who could read Dave
Ramsey's book could read my bookand mine might be a bit, well,
a lot more references toscripture and explanation, not
maybe not as folksy, but I thinkcertainly people who can read
on that level.
The book can be used in a coupleof different ways.
(04:15):
I've had some people who wouldjust read straight through the
book, but it's arrangement in aquestion-and-answer format also
makes it possible for people touse it as a reference.
So you know my friend's tryingto get me involved in a
multi-level marketing scheme.
Hey, what do you know?
There's a chapter onconsidering multi- level
marketing.
Or you know my extendedfamily's going on a trip to Las
(04:40):
Vegas and they expect me togamble with them.
And how does the Bible speak toan issue like that?
Or I just won a bunch of, Ijust, I hope you didn't win it
in the lottery because Iwouldn't like that, b ut you
know, I just inherited somemoney and what are biblical
principles of wisdom,practically of how to invest it,
so you can kind of jump around.
I could see counselors using itas a reference as they
(05:03):
encounter people with variousissues, or even getting their
counselorees to read certainparts of it.
So I hope people are finding ituseful in various ways.
Tim Hopper (05:13):
Yeah, this is just occurring to me, but one of the
times that our deacons try toencourage people to be
financially thoughtful and wiseis especially when young couples
are married, you know, try totake the opportunity to talk to
them as we're able, but I thinkthis would be a great book to
get in the hands of those youngcouples as they're getting
married and combining financesand, you know, often starting
(05:37):
off their adult financial life.
I think it'd be really helpful.
As the years go on, there are alot of questions that will
become relevant.
You know, you have things, eventhe wisdom of you know buying
car, financing cars, leasingcars, and a lot of very
practical things.
As we get into that, what doesthe Bible have to say about
(05:58):
money?
Is the Bible this is a 300-page book, a lot of chapters is
the Bible have that much to sayabout money?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (06:05):
I feel like I was in summary mode rather than
exhaustive mode.
II Timothy.
3, 16 and 17 says the scriptureequips us for every good work,
and part of that I mean so muchof our life involves our
vocation, our responsibility toprovide, our stewardship of the
resources God has given us.
And so from Genesis, where wewere given a dominion to be
(06:29):
productive, and then thetroubles with our productivity
because of the fall, you havemany principles for commerce and
the law have still wisdom forus, although we're not under the
Old Testament law.
The book of Proverbs addressesvirtually everything in terms of
how to be successful in earningmoney—the problems of the
sluggard, the wisdom of saving,the folly of debt.
The New Testament also Jesushas many parables and teachings
about financial issues.
And then Paul also brings upthe exhortations to the rich.
James addresses rich and poor.
So I think 300 pages is barelyenough to summarize what the
Bible says about financialissues.
.
Tim Hopper (07:19):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
As you were writing it, did youchange your mind or really
develop your own opinion onthings, on any particular thing?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (07:31):
I think that probably the most encouraging
aspect to me is that I reallybelieve in the sufficiency of
Scripture to guide us in life.
Every single question or topicthat I can think of, there is
wisdom in the Scripture toaddress that.
Sometimes even you come acrosssomething and you think, well,
(07:52):
I'm not sure.
Then you start doing someresearch and you can see there
are principles there.
I think another aspect is thatthere are situations in which
the Bible gives us freedom.
Some people want specificanswers.
An example would be in 1 Timothy6, as Paul speaks to the rich.
(08:13):
He says let the rich in thispresent world not trust in the
uncertainty of riches, but to berich in good works.
He's not shaming them for beingrich.
He's not saying they can'tcontinue to save some of their
money.
He doesn't have to give it allaway.
He says even that God has givenall things to enjoy.
Wealth brings greater enjoymentof the things that God has made
(08:34):
in the world.
He also says we should begenerous, but he doesn't define
specifically exactly thelifestyle we should live,
exactly how much we should giveaway, how much we should save.
We have a lot of responsibilitythere.
It also brings concerns oflegalism, comparing it to other
(08:54):
approaches, where like DaveRamsey would say you can never
have a credit card or here's theway to get rid of your debt, I
would say those are a way toapproach things, but there's
nothing in the Bible that tellsyou you can't have a credit card
.
If you use it responsibly,there can be benefits.
It's true that many peoplemisuse them.
(09:15):
So I guess one thing thatstruck me the most was how often
you come across something wherethe Bible gives principles of
wisdom that we have to applywithin a realm of freedom and
even in counseling, not to tellpeople exactly what they must do
in a particular situation.
Tim Hopper (09:34):
Yeah, that is a very relevant point for deacons, as
we meet with folks in our churchand advise them and counsel
them and try not to bind theirconsciences on things that
scripture doesn't require.
As we think about that, I'vebeen in deacon now for 12 years.
I think one of the things I'verealized over the years is how
(09:55):
much deacons are counselors, andsomething even with that lesson
I've learned from David Paulsonand others is how much
Christians are counselors.
As we just interact with oneanother, we have the opportunity
to counsel one another, butparticularly as deacons, we
sometimes write checks to helpsolve problems.
But I think a lot of times thebigger work we do is just in
(10:18):
meeting with people who are insituations of financial need or
sickness and we're able to givethem comfort in Christ.
So, that connects to yourinterest in Christian counseling
and wondering if you might beable to then connect that back
to thinking about how this bookcould be useful for deacons in
(10:39):
their work and how they mightuse it in a church situation.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (10:43):
Yeah, I can think of several ways.
I've had couples come to me infinancial trouble and maybe not
all pastors and elders are thebest people to be helping into
those situations, but in mybackground it's something I've
been comfortable working with.
(11:03):
And, so, here they are andthey're in debt and they're
every month losing money.
And, so, for example, the bookafter the general principles of
money, it tells what does theBible say about earning money
and the summary would be workhard like go to the ant, P
roverbs 10, the hand of thediligent will be blessed.
(11:27):
But also to work smart,Proverbs says, "Do you see a man
skilled in his work?
He will stand before kings.
He will not serve ordinary men.
If you're working at minimumwage, you can work 70 hours a
week and not provide for afamily.
You can acquire a skill whereyou can make $50 an hour instead
of $15 an hour and provide fora family.
(11:49):
And, so, in some cases it'ssitting down with people and
analyzing their situation is howcan you acquire better skills
so that you can make more money?
Or how do you need to be morediligent, perhaps even to do
side jobs or something toprovide for your family?
And, so, that would be oneaspect is if you're falling
short financially, then do youneed to increase income?
(12:12):
There's also a lot in the bookabout creating a budget wisely.
I've often sat down withcouples and just making a list
of where do you think themoney's going.
Let's go back over debit cardand credit card receipts or
statements and figure out whereit's going and seek to,
(12:35):
Proverbs 21:5 is one of myfavorite financial verses.
The plans of the diligent leadto advantage and those who are
hasty come to poverty.
I've many times sat down withan individual or a couple and we
make a spreadsheet.
Just what are your expenses?
This is an example of legalism.
I can't tell you what kind ofphone to buy, what kind of phone
plan to have, how manyStarbucks you can have.
(12:58):
I can't tell you the debt isvery bad and that you need to
have more money coming in, or atleast equal to what's going out
, and you need to be preparedfor the future.
Then let's look at your budgettogether, which you're spending
and decide well, maybe I can'thave Starbucks six days a week
or whatever.
(13:19):
I think there are steps ofcreating a budget.
There are principles of wherewe should be spending our money
and giving.
Those would be some examples, Iguess, moving to the latter
part of the book, if somebodygets an inheritance and there
are many bad investment advisorsout there who are
self-interested and I've hadsome really tragic things happen
(13:41):
to people I know how do wewisely navigate the
responsibility of an inheritance.
For example, I had a case of aman who inherited a sizable
amount of money and he met a guyat church who convinced him to
buy a certain type of annuityand lend money to actually the
(14:03):
business of the man in church.
The money in the business waslost and the money in the
annuity was locked up.
And terrible.
And so, warning people abouthow to choose investment
advisors and then how to wiselysteward our finances that we may
(14:25):
have savings for the future.
Tim Hopper (14:27):
Yeah, that's helpful .
In the OPC we have a lot ofreally small churches and many
with small diaconates, and Ithink I've been blessed to be at
a church with several deacons.
We're always able to talkthrough issues and bounce ideas
off one another.
But I think even for churcheswith small deacons this is a
helpful resource and the bookcan become your sounding board
(14:50):
as maybe your solo deacon andyou think through these things
and it's really helpful to justbe able to have somebody else's
input and I think especially theway the book is structured in a
Q&A format makes thatparticularly accessible.
Something you just alluded tothat comes up actually fairly
regularly is the idea of earningmore money.
(15:10):
I'm a graduate of Grove CityCollege, a reputable Christian
college, and our career servicesdepartment was always telling
us of how employers just loveGrove City students and how they
get snatched up and hired rightaway.
I had a friend in college whowas a little bit cynical, who
used to share the perspectivethat employers just like Grove
City students because they wereChristians and taught to be
(15:32):
content and not complain, andthen they wouldn't ask for
raises and cost the company alot of money, which there's
maybe some truth to.
But one of the pieces of advicethat we often need to give to
people is you need to earn moremoney when people are being
careful and still not being ableto make ends meet and they need
(15:53):
to think about that.
Is that wrong for Christians tohave that perspective of
aspiring to making more money?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (16:00):
The warnings in Scripture regarding finances
is about the love of money andputting your trust in money in 1
Timothy 6, not in havingresources.
There are actually many versesin the book of Proverbs
describing the blessings thatGod gives with a certain amount
of wealth.
It's a protection againsttrouble and being prepared for
(16:22):
the future.
So 1 Timothy 5 says that if youdon't provide wealth for your
family, you're like an infidelor worse than an infidel.
And so for most of us to earnwell, the motive being we can
give more to the Lord that wecan provide wealth for our
families.
(16:42):
There are many couples where thewife would love to have
children and it's being delayedbecause they're not making
enough money, or she'd like tobe home with her children, and
for the husband to figure outhow can I earn more money or
budget more carefully so that mywife can be at home?
Or, instead of driving a25-year-old Corolla with five
people in our family, I couldbuy a decent minivan.
(17:04):
So I think the desire to takecare of your family, to give to
the Lord's work yes, it's themotivation, as opposed to my
meaning is established by howmuch money I have and how nice a
car I drive, and I dedicated mybook to productive people that
(17:25):
the reason I have a building tomeet in and a salary I'm being
paid as a seminary professor andfor 30 years before that, as a
pastor, is because people haveworked hard and worked smart and
they've been productive andthey've given generously People
who had skills that other peoplevalued, and produced goods and
(17:47):
services that other people wereglad to pay well for, which then
enabled them not only to becomfortable in this world but
also to be able to be a blessingand invest in the kingdom.
And so, again, I think it's themotivation and the trust and
it's a good thing to besuccessful.
(18:08):
I'll give you what other isthat.
Our church has some men who areentrepreneurs.
Not only are they creatingvaluable goods and services for
others, as they've beensuccessful, they've been able to
employ other believers, trainyoung men, to gain skills by
which they can provide for afamily, and so all of this, as
(18:29):
you read Proverbs, it's how theLord has set it up, and you see
people engaging in commerce,engaging in gaining skills,
providing valuable goods andservices.
That's a blessing for those whoreceive those, as well as a
blessing for that person andthose he can bless.
Tim Hopper (18:48):
That's a very, very helpful answer.
Thank you for that.
Also.
I've also been privileged toserve as our church treasurer
for a long time.
We have two pastors who we'reable to provide for, and I get
to really make that connectionbetween seeing people who are
able to give and then being ableto provide for our pastors who
(19:08):
serve us so faithfully.
And if we had everyone adoptinga monastic vow of poverty or
something that wouldn't be thecase, and the Lord's able to use
those.
And so, yeah, you mentioned RTSand just so many ministries
that are supported that we're soblessed with in our day, yes,
missions, yeah.
Are there any commonmisconceptions that you think
(19:32):
American Christians have aboutmoney and finances?
We live here in one of the most, if not the most, affluent
societies ever, where even ourpoor often have more than a lot
of the world.
Are there common misconceptionsthat we've fallen into?
Yeah, yes.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (19:48):
I think that there are some that maybe come
from bad theology, where youhave people saying the name and
inclaim it prosperity, gospelpeople who, quite frankly,
there's so many ways that peopleundermine God's way of gaining
wealth, which is working hardand working smart, and they'll
try to say, well, if you give abunch of money to this ministry,
(20:10):
then God's going to make yourich, or even that whatever, if
you follow a certain rulesspiritually, that God is going
to make you rich.
And yet we have many faithfulbrothers and sisters all over
the world who aren't rich andare struggling financially.
So I think, even understandingin a fallen world, people who
may be working hard and doingthe best they can, may struggle.
(20:33):
And then, living in ourparticular culture, I think
there can be a problem of beingdiscontent where you can.
First of all, comparison isn'tgood anyway.
First, Timothy, if we have foodand clothing with these, we
should be content.
Paul, for Philippians 4, talksabout being.
He's alerted to be content inall circumstances.
But I think if you're drivingwhatever 10-year-old Corolla and
(20:57):
somebody else has got the NewTesla, we can be tempted to envy
and be tempted to think thatthose who have the nicer house,
the nicer car are better offthan we are.
And then, because our culturedoes so much with debt,
christians can be influenced byculture and make unwise
financial decisions, whichborrower becomes the lender's
(21:19):
slave.
So just even that money willmake you happy, and even secular
studies show that wealth doesnot correspond to people's
happiness.
And yeah, so just I think theworld tries to.
Romans 12 says don't beconformed to this world.
I think the world is constantlypressuring us to adopt their
(21:40):
values, that money and stuff,for what matter most and the
great treasure we have, proverbssays, is the Lord and the
wisdom he gives us.
Tim Hopper (21:53):
Yeah, amen, that's very helpful.
You've mentioned debt a fewtimes.
Do you think it's outrightwrong for Christians to have
debt?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (22:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think that debt is generallywell.
.
t The wisdom of Proverbs is thedebt is to be avoided.
I don't think there's a law inthe Bible saying you can never
borrow money, but Proverbsdescribes the bad things that
can happen when you do borrowmoney, as you become a slave to
the debt, and so we can see allkinds of bad things that happen.
(22:24):
Practically People charge uptheir credit cards.
I actually have a case thisafternoon of a couple who have
gotten deeply in debt with theirfinances and are all messed up,
and so debt is very dangerousbecause you have the allure I
can have something now and I'dhave to come up with the money
to pay for it, and so it can bemisused in many ways.
It's very vivid when it talksabout incurring the debt of
(22:48):
others.
It says why should you haveyour bed taken out from
underneath you?
And Proverbs says that's a veryvivid picture of what can
happen to you.
They take your car, they takeyour house, and I've counseled
people who've gone throughbankruptcy, have had their
houses foreclosed, and it'sbecause, generally because of
unwise use of debt, ofgratifying instant gratification
without planning for the future, being prepared.
(23:10):
But it's not forbidden to haveany debt and you could say well,
if you charge a dollar on yourcredit card, technically you're
in debt until you pay the bill.
But if you incur this veryshort-term debt and immediately
pay it off again, that's anotherthing.
Debt is destructive because ofthe interest, so you pay twice
for things and the rates areexorbitant on credit cards.
(23:32):
But somebody could go into debtfor whatever and he pays it off
because he's planned to pay itoff.
Not many people can buy a housewithout debt.
I saw an interesting statisticabout how, when I was born late
50s, the average house costabout double the average salary,
(23:52):
and now the average house costsmany, many more times the
average salary, and so sometimesyou can pay a mortgage and if
you're paying rent, I guessyou're paying somebody else's
debt.
So I think we're free to verycarefully use debt, but we
realize debt can be like playingwith fire.
So we need to beextraordinarily careful and
(24:15):
really the situation I think theBible would emphasize is don't
incur debt that may put you in aposition of shame, of not being
able to repay, or disaster thatwould even apply to a house, is
that you buy a house.
It's good to you know, buying ahouse could be a good thing for
your family for many reasons.
It could even be economicallyas good or better than renting.
(24:36):
But if you buy the house thatthings are so tight that you
can't make the payment after acouple of years, that was a bad
decision and you want to be in aposition where, even if
something went wrong, you've gotsome margin in your finances so
that there's very littlepossibility human speaking,
(24:58):
humanly speaking, you'd be in aposition where you could not pay
back what you owe.
Tim Hopper (25:01):
That's very helpful, that's you know.
My fear as a deacon in 21stcentury America is not that I'm
going to find out that someonein my church is destitute not
being able to eat, but going tofind out that somebody makes
$50,000 a year and they're$75,000 in credit card debt, you
know, 15% interest rate, whichis particularly scary to me
(25:25):
because it's such a hidden thing, right.
Those things can just be goingon and you have no idea.
Somebody's not talking about it.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (25:34):
I mean I've even several years ago I would
meet college students who hadn'teven really worked in the real
world yet and they had $100,000a debt with school and or credit
cards.
And so I think you know I can'tfrom the Bible say you can't
have debt, but I would say thatany debt you incur should be
(25:55):
done so in a very careful,responsible way.
I'll give you anotherillustration.
Like with college, debt is toborrow.
You know, college costs $50,000, $60,000 a year and you wind up
borrowing over $100,000 to geta degree in some field.
I do want to mention for less,less to offend people, but
there's certain degrees.
When you're done you're notmaking as much as a novice
(26:19):
electrician or something.
That to incur debt on somethingthat will not be worth what you
incurred the debt for is unwiseand it's going to be harmful.
Now, if you're accepted tomedical school, maybe just like
buying a house you can't buy ahouse without debt and maybe you
can't go to medical schoolwithout debt.
But there's also a reasonableprospect that would you have
(26:41):
invested in that education willresult in you having an income
that will make it easy to payback the debt.
Tim Hopper (26:49):
Yeah, very helpful.
As we work towards a conclusion, I'd like to ask a few
questions about specificdiaconal things and how we be
proactive in church, and thisforms right out of this question
about debt.
Are there ways, besides buyingeverybody a copy of your book,
that we can help people in ourchurch avoid financial trouble
(27:13):
and putting themselves in badsituations?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (27:16):
Yeah, I mean a lot of churches do Dave Ramsey
financial peace seminars.
I've got plenty of work to dowithout coming to everybody's
church and doing this, but Ithink the idea of offering
classes or training on what theBible says about earning money,
(27:36):
saving money, planning for thefuture, avoiding debt, I think
would be valuable to not just ona pragmatic level but to show
people explicitly from scripturewhere that wisdom is.
I also think that if we talkabout it to people then
sometimes that will drive themout of the woodwork.
To seek advice is probably foryou know, tim, as a deacon or
(27:59):
myself when been a pastor, thatoftentimes by the time you learn
about somebody's debt problemor their financial problem, the
boat is already sinking.
I've had people come and againborrowing money, took all the
equity out of their house andjust in desperate situations.
(28:21):
Well, if you had come sixmonths ago, it would have been
much easier to try to salvagethe situation.
It is in the Bible, so I thinkin the preaching ministry the
word.
Some of these things can bebrought up Sunday school classes
, other matters, and then Iguess in individual
relationships and visitation.
You're not going to catcheverything, but when you, you
(28:44):
know, when people, a lot ofpeople will talk about, we're
struggling financially.
A lot of times a wife will tellother wives, and I think, to be
proactive and offer andsometimes I'd say like if you
don't want to show me your stuff, you don't have to, but if you
want to show me what's going on,I think I can probably help you
and to make those offers, oreven to make general offers
(29:05):
publicly, the announcements orwhatever means of communication
that you know.
We have deacons, who, from God,is gifted in managing such
matters.
And if you, you know, want somecounsel or wisdom, here it is.
I actually have.
Actually, I'll mention two otherresources that you might be
able to use, realizing that noteverybody in the church will
(29:26):
read a three-hundred page book.
I have a mini book by NewGrowth that's called Financial
Crisis, which is just, you know,20 pages and it's talking about
if you find yourself indesperate trouble.
Here are steps to take toaddress the emergency, and it
begins by confessing to Godwhere you've sinned.
(29:49):
I mean, sometimes we're justvictims.
Covid happened and yourbusiness got clobbered, but you
know, examining oneselfspiritually and then wise
principles in the Bible fordigging out of a bad situation.
I also have in the 31-daydevotional series by a PNR.
I have one on money whichreally, in a devotional way,
(30:09):
covers a lot of the sameprinciples that the larger book
does.
It's just two pages per day for31 days, so it's very.
You know, it's less than afifth the length, but it's
really dealing with the hardissues behind our finances, and
so that could be.
I would encourage you toconsider many of those have a
bunch on hand for people notjust mine but others in that
(30:30):
series for families that aren'tdoing family devotions.
They're a really greatentry-level opportunity.
But then you know, on financial, I've given this to people just
, you know, to get the basicprinciples of wisdom from the
scriptures but also dealing withtheir hard issues as they face
these challenges.
Tim Hopper (30:50):
That's very helpful, and I'll also mention your book
.
It does have an audio bookedition.
That's very good.
The chapters are not terriblylong, so I mean you could easily
listen to a chapter a day andthey're 10 minutes or something
and get through this book in notime.
A little bit of commitment, so,you know, for people who are on
the go.
I was listening to some of itas I've been preparing for this,
(31:11):
thanks, a related question tothat, and then you've alluded to
I guess really I'm putting onyour counseling hat how do
deacons help and encourage thosewho are facing financial
troubles outside of just handingthem a book, recognizing that,
as I said earlier, it's oftennot just writing a check that
(31:31):
solves the problem.
But those who are facingfinancial struggles are likely
having anxiety and, you know,maybe doubt and stress.
How do we counsel and encouragepeople in that situation?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (31:44):
Yeah, I think that we need to do a lot of
listening and different.
You know everybody's going tohave a different situation and
different causes and so I thinkwe have to listen both to what
they've been doing, but you knowthe way they spend money.
You know Jesus talked to Luke 6.
Out of the heart come our wordsand our deeds.
(32:06):
And so I have a couple caseswhere a wife, who's at home, I
think, is using spending moneyas a drug, buying more clothes
or more jewelry or whatever, andshe's using it just like
somebody could use food or drinkor something just to kind of
(32:27):
relieve boredom or stress orsomething.
And so just putting on herbudget isn't going to solve the
problem If in her heart shebelieves she needs to every day
or every week have new stuff tobe happy.
Others it could be comparison Ineed to have what other people
have.
And we had a case in our churchwhere a guy had a lot of
(32:49):
friends who were better off thanhe and they were living in a
certain lifestyle and he spentto keep up with that lifestyle
and then he lost his housebecause he, you know he would
have if he would have beencontent with what he had.
But there was comparison and soI think trying to figure out
what are the heart issues thatled into this, and then I mean
(33:10):
with I understand too, with theanxiety.
I guess it's certainlysomething if it's a family for
the husband and wife Philippians4, that be anxious for nothing
and everything, with parents'application, with Thanksgiving,
let your request be made knownto God.
It should drive them to pray.
(33:32):
Some people are victimsfinancially.
More people have been foolish.
That's where confessing to Godand asking for his mercy the
psalm says he does not treat usas our sins deserve Seeking his
help and trusting him and hopingin him and seeking his wisdom.
Where they haven't beenfollowing that wisdom, seeking
(33:53):
accountability, that's wherethey are willing to have that
accountability with theirdeacons and elders pastors.
The financial crisis was alsowritten for that type of
situation.
There are some people who don'tread anything, and so it might
be that the deacons who arehelping might need to
familiarize yourself with someof this material for myself or
(34:17):
others, so that you could bringthose principles to them, even
if they may not be the ones toread.
I'll also add that you'vealready mentioned the book.
There are other resources onthe.
I'm the director of a ministrycalled IBCD, the Institute for
Biblical Counseling andDiscipleship.
There's a website, ibcdorg, andthere are audios, including
(34:41):
audios I've done on financialtopics.
A lot of people will listen toan audio who won't read a book?
And so that's anotherpossibility.
Tim Hopper (34:50):
Very helpful, thank you.
Another related question tothese, something that's been on
my mind lately, is thinkingabout our churches and old age.
In America and a lot ofcountries around the world we
have aging populations, solikely our churches are going to
be having more and more peoplethat are older.
(35:11):
Our deacons study bookstogether in our deacon meetings
and I had suggested a couplebooks, including yours, for our
most recent study, and weactually decided to go with
another book, a short book by anOPC minister called Honoring
the Elderly, about caring foraging parents, but really with
the mind for our deacons to beprepared as our own congregation
ages and also we just havepeople in our church dealing
(35:33):
with aging parents.
What are some ways that you canthink of that we can help
people prepare for old age andretirement, as well as helping
people help others do that, aswe have people in our church
helping their parents or othersin the church.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (35:48):
Yeah, I guess it goes back that I see a lot
of like millennial aged peoplewho spend everything they have
to maintain a lifestyle, andProverbs 6, the ant gathers food
in the summer, preparing forthe future, and so I think that
(36:09):
I think sometimes, just where wehave opportunity to encourage
people when they're younger tohave some wisdom to put aside
for the future rather than toconsume it all now, and I think
even I mean as the churchemploys people, pastors, I think
a lot of churches cut cornersby how much do you need to
survive and that's what they getpaid to, making sure that part
(36:31):
of their pay package is thatmoney's being put into 401k or
403b or something.
And so I think, encouragingpeople as we have opportunity to
plan for that.
First, timothy 5, we're toldfor widows that family has
responsibility to care for them,even before the church does.
I think it's interesting thatJesus, when he talks about the
(36:53):
Fifth Commandment, rebukes thePharisees from that commandment
because they claimed they weretithing and they weren't
honoring their parents byhelping their need.
In their old age and againthere'll be different situations
I think the greatest need ofmost older people is not money,
(37:14):
but it's love and most peoplebetween social security and
savings and everything else.
You know I'm in the boomergeneration that's retiring.
In most situations I'm aware inthe church the parents are.
What they need is time withtheir kids and their grandkids
and not to be ignored by thebusyness of life.
(37:36):
Some people have parents whohave been foolish and
irresponsible and it puts themin a very awkward position
because your parents aregambling and whatever,
vacationing, and now they cometo you and they want help.
I actually have a mini bookthat addresses that how to Love
Difficult Parents.
But I mean, that's anothersituation.
(37:56):
Another wonderful distinctionof Christians really both
addressing the financial and thepersonal need is so many
Christians, as their parents orgrandparents become elderly and
needy, invite them to live inthe home, or at least very
nearby, and make sure theirvarious needs are cared for.
Obviously, inviting them intohome is going to save them a lot
(38:17):
of money.
A major work of the Deacons iscaring for widows, going back to
Act 6, james 1.
And so I think just to be awareof that, and most of the needs
of widows I see is they needsomebody to come fix stuff and
they're saving a lot of money.
Maybe you have this.
I don't have a lot ofsituations like Act 6 where you
have widows who are totallydestitute.
(38:38):
We're having to feed them butthey're lonely, or just their
house is deteriorating and theyneed help managing even managing
their finances.
Just to be very aware.
I mean, that's the center pointof where the Deacons office
began, in my understanding, inAct 6.
So I think our Deacons and ourchurch feel a strong obligation
to be on top of whatever theneeds of the widows are.
(39:01):
I also think just many of olderpeople don't have children who
honor the Lord and therefore thechurch has to step in if the
children aren't fulfilling theirresponsibilities because they
don't have biblical values.
Tim Hopper (39:17):
Thank you very much.
A lot of different things toconsider there and, I think, an
important thing for our Deaconsto keep in mind.
One final question Do you haveany future plans on working on
money and more books orresources on this?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (39:30):
I thought I was done and then I wrote the
one on financial crisis.
I feel like I've been studyingthis my entire life, both from a
common grace, economicstandpoint I've read a lot of
books and then biblically, andwhat the Money Debt and Finances
book is is kind of an overallsummary of what I've been
(39:53):
learning over decades.
So at this point I might atsome point, when people like you
recognize things I could havedone better, I might revise it,
but I don't on that particulararea.
I have other book projects onvarious counseling issues, but I
think I've said most of what Ihave to say, especially in that
book.
So no radio show.
Yeah, maybe if Dave Ramseyretires I'll take his spot
(40:19):
Sounds good, but if I do, Iwon't try to sell you all these
different things.
Great.
Tim Hopper (40:25):
Thank you for coming on the Reformed Deacon podcast.
We really appreciate yourperspective.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (40:29):
Thank you for inviting me.
I've enjoyed getting to knowyou better and it's a privilege
to have you talk about my book.
David Nakhla (40:35):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformdeacon.
org.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again next month for anotherepisode of the Reform Deacon
podcast.
So I guess one thing that struck me the
most was how often you comeacross something where the Bible
gives principles of wisdom thatwe have to apply with a realm
of freedom, and even incounseling, not to tell people
exactly what they must do in aparticular situation.
David Nakhla (00:18):
Welcome to The Reformed Deacon, a casual
conversation with topicsspecifically designed to help
local Reformed deacons.
There are nearly a thousanddeacons in the OPC alone, so
let's take this opportunity tolearn from and encourage one
another.
We're so glad you could join us.
Let's jump into our nextepisode.
Tim Hopper (00:38):
I'm Tim Hopper, a deacon at Shiloh Presbyterian
Church in Raleigh, NorthCarolina.
On today's podcast, I'm joinedby a special guest, Dr Jim
Newheiser, who is the directorof the Christian counseling
program and a professor ofPastoral Theology at Reformed
Theological Seminary inCharlotte, North Carolina.
Dr.
Newheiser is the author ofseveral books, including the one
we're going to discuss today,"Money, Debt, and Finances
(01:01):
Critical Questions and Answers".
This is a book that's veryuseful for deacons and we asked
him to come on the podcast todiscuss it with us.
Welcome, Dr.
Newheiser.
Thanks, glad to be with you.
Can you share a little bit ofthe background of this book?
You have your own uniquebackground that may be something
people wouldn't expect and thathas helped lead to the writing
of this book.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (01:23):
I majored in accounting and finance and
management at University andspent the first several years of
my career working withcomputers and finance and
accounting, originally forwhat's called Accenture, and
then what was what is ExxonMobil, and also, had experiences in
(01:47):
my 20s where we worked overseasand were able to save money and
also watching what people didwhen they were making more money
than they ever had in theirlives.
As we saved money, we're veryyoung, or made a lot of money,
at least for us at the time.
We had to learn to manage itand it became just an area of
interest of mine.
Now, I would add, the wholetime I was also very involved in
(02:11):
ministry.
We were actually in SaudiArabia where I was pastoring a
group while I was doing my workwith the computers and the
finance stuff.
But I had a desire from many,many years before to try to
bring together the background infinance, accounting, investing
(02:31):
along with a Biblicalperspective that would be rooted
in sound theology.
I heard about Dave Ramsey manyyears ago and I think many
people like his very practicaland also folksy advice that he
gives.
But even the way I pitched itto the publisher I would like to
(02:51):
provide Kind of Dave Ramsey butwith exegesis and theology, and
also there's some things inDave Ramsey that I think are a
bit legalistic, and so I thinkwe need to point out here's what
the Bible says we must do like,we must work, we must give, but
then I think that we also havea lot of freedom and some
(03:13):
matters where he can be a littlemore strict.
Tim Hopper (03:17):
Yeah, that's helpful .
What are or what audience didyou have in mind as you're
writing it?
It's it's not an academic, knowp ublication, it's very
practical.
Is that—— I assume that was thegoal going into it.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (03:30):
Sure, yeah, and even though I teach at a
seminary, I don't feel like I'mthe academic guy.
I think I'm an ordinary pastorand I'm now teaching future
ordinary pastors and counselors.
So I think that the audiencewould be the same mainstream
audience for other practicalChristian books.
Money is an issue that you knowaffects everybody and I would
(03:55):
say, you know, I would hopepeople who could read Dave
Ramsey's book could read my bookand mine might be a bit, well,
a lot more references toscripture and explanation, not
maybe not as folksy, but I thinkcertainly people who can read
on that level.
The book can be used in a coupleof different ways.
(04:15):
I've had some people who wouldjust read straight through the
book, but it's arrangement in aquestion-and-answer format also
makes it possible for people touse it as a reference.
So you know my friend's tryingto get me involved in a
multi-level marketing scheme.
Hey, what do you know?
There's a chapter onconsidering multi- level
marketing.
Or you know my extendedfamily's going on a trip to Las
(04:40):
Vegas and they expect me togamble with them.
And how does the Bible speak toan issue like that?
Or I just won a bunch of, Ijust, I hope you didn't win it
in the lottery because Iwouldn't like that, b ut you
know, I just inherited somemoney and what are biblical
principles of wisdom,practically of how to invest it,
so you can kind of jump around.
I could see counselors using itas a reference as they
(05:03):
encounter people with variousissues, or even getting their
counselorees to read certainparts of it.
So I hope people are finding ituseful in various ways.
Tim Hopper (05:13):
Yeah, this is just occurring to me, but one of the
times that our deacons try toencourage people to be
financially thoughtful and wiseis especially when young couples
are married, you know, try totake the opportunity to talk to
them as we're able, but I thinkthis would be a great book to
get in the hands of those youngcouples as they're getting
married and combining financesand, you know, often starting
(05:37):
off their adult financial life.
I think it'd be really helpful.
As the years go on, there are alot of questions that will
become relevant.
You know, you have things, eventhe wisdom of you know buying
car, financing cars, leasingcars, and a lot of very
practical things.
As we get into that, what doesthe Bible have to say about
(05:58):
money?
Is the Bible this is a 300-page book, a lot of chapters is
the Bible have that much to sayabout money?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (06:05):
I feel like I was in summary mode rather than
exhaustive mode.
II Timothy.
3, 16 and 17 says the scriptureequips us for every good work,
and part of that I mean so muchof our life involves our
vocation, our responsibility toprovide, our stewardship of the
resources God has given us.
And so from Genesis, where wewere given a dominion to be
(06:29):
productive, and then thetroubles with our productivity
because of the fall, you havemany principles for commerce and
the law have still wisdom forus, although we're not under the
Old Testament law.
The book of Proverbs addressesvirtually everything in terms of
how to be successful in earningmoney—the problems of the
sluggard, the wisdom of saving,the folly of debt.
The New Testament also Jesushas many parables and teachings
about financial issues.
And then Paul also brings upthe exhortations to the rich.
James addresses rich and poor.
So I think 300 pages is barelyenough to summarize what the
Bible says about financialissues.
.
Tim Hopper (07:19):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
As you were writing it, did youchange your mind or really
develop your own opinion onthings, on any particular thing?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (07:31):
I think that probably the most encouraging
aspect to me is that I reallybelieve in the sufficiency of
Scripture to guide us in life.
Every single question or topicthat I can think of, there is
wisdom in the Scripture toaddress that.
Sometimes even you come acrosssomething and you think, well,
(07:52):
I'm not sure.
Then you start doing someresearch and you can see there
are principles there.
I think another aspect is thatthere are situations in which
the Bible gives us freedom.
Some people want specificanswers.
An example would be in 1 Timothy6, as Paul speaks to the rich.
(08:13):
He says let the rich in thispresent world not trust in the
uncertainty of riches, but to berich in good works.
He's not shaming them for beingrich.
He's not saying they can'tcontinue to save some of their
money.
He doesn't have to give it allaway.
He says even that God has givenall things to enjoy.
Wealth brings greater enjoymentof the things that God has made
(08:34):
in the world.
He also says we should begenerous, but he doesn't define
specifically exactly thelifestyle we should live,
exactly how much we should giveaway, how much we should save.
We have a lot of responsibilitythere.
It also brings concerns oflegalism, comparing it to other
(08:54):
approaches, where like DaveRamsey would say you can never
have a credit card or here's theway to get rid of your debt, I
would say those are a way toapproach things, but there's
nothing in the Bible that tellsyou you can't have a credit card
.
If you use it responsibly,there can be benefits.
It's true that many peoplemisuse them.
(09:15):
So I guess one thing thatstruck me the most was how often
you come across something wherethe Bible gives principles of
wisdom that we have to applywithin a realm of freedom and
even in counseling, not to tellpeople exactly what they must do
in a particular situation.
Tim Hopper (09:34):
Yeah, that is a very relevant point for deacons, as
we meet with folks in our churchand advise them and counsel
them and try not to bind theirconsciences on things that
scripture doesn't require.
As we think about that, I'vebeen in deacon now for 12 years.
I think one of the things I'verealized over the years is how
(09:55):
much deacons are counselors, andsomething even with that lesson
I've learned from David Paulsonand others is how much
Christians are counselors.
As we just interact with oneanother, we have the opportunity
to counsel one another, butparticularly as deacons, we
sometimes write checks to helpsolve problems.
But I think a lot of times thebigger work we do is just in
(10:18):
meeting with people who are insituations of financial need or
sickness and we're able to givethem comfort in Christ.
So, that connects to yourinterest in Christian counseling
and wondering if you might beable to then connect that back
to thinking about how this bookcould be useful for deacons in
(10:39):
their work and how they mightuse it in a church situation.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (10:43):
Yeah, I can think of several ways.
I've had couples come to me infinancial trouble and maybe not
all pastors and elders are thebest people to be helping into
those situations, but in mybackground it's something I've
been comfortable working with.
(11:03):
And, so, here they are andthey're in debt and they're
every month losing money.
And, so, for example, the bookafter the general principles of
money, it tells what does theBible say about earning money
and the summary would be workhard like go to the ant, P
roverbs 10, the hand of thediligent will be blessed.
(11:27):
But also to work smart,Proverbs says, "Do you see a man
skilled in his work?
He will stand before kings.
He will not serve ordinary men.
If you're working at minimumwage, you can work 70 hours a
week and not provide for afamily.
You can acquire a skill whereyou can make $50 an hour instead
of $15 an hour and provide fora family.
(11:49):
And, so, in some cases it'ssitting down with people and
analyzing their situation is howcan you acquire better skills
so that you can make more money?
Or how do you need to be morediligent, perhaps even to do
side jobs or something toprovide for your family?
And, so, that would be oneaspect is if you're falling
short financially, then do youneed to increase income?
(12:12):
There's also a lot in the bookabout creating a budget wisely.
I've often sat down withcouples and just making a list
of where do you think themoney's going.
Let's go back over debit cardand credit card receipts or
statements and figure out whereit's going and seek to,
(12:35):
Proverbs 21:5 is one of myfavorite financial verses.
The plans of the diligent leadto advantage and those who are
hasty come to poverty.
I've many times sat down withan individual or a couple and we
make a spreadsheet.
Just what are your expenses?
This is an example of legalism.
I can't tell you what kind ofphone to buy, what kind of phone
plan to have, how manyStarbucks you can have.
(12:58):
I can't tell you the debt isvery bad and that you need to
have more money coming in, or atleast equal to what's going out
, and you need to be preparedfor the future.
Then let's look at your budgettogether, which you're spending
and decide well, maybe I can'thave Starbucks six days a week
or whatever.
(13:19):
I think there are steps ofcreating a budget.
There are principles of wherewe should be spending our money
and giving.
Those would be some examples, Iguess, moving to the latter
part of the book, if somebodygets an inheritance and there
are many bad investment advisorsout there who are
self-interested and I've hadsome really tragic things happen
(13:41):
to people I know how do wewisely navigate the
responsibility of an inheritance.
For example, I had a case of aman who inherited a sizable
amount of money and he met a guyat church who convinced him to
buy a certain type of annuityand lend money to actually the
(14:03):
business of the man in church.
The money in the business waslost and the money in the
annuity was locked up.
And terrible.
And so, warning people abouthow to choose investment
advisors and then how to wiselysteward our finances that we may
(14:25):
have savings for the future.
Tim Hopper (14:27):
Yeah, that's helpful .
In the OPC we have a lot ofreally small churches and many
with small diaconates, and Ithink I've been blessed to be at
a church with several deacons.
We're always able to talkthrough issues and bounce ideas
off one another.
But I think even for churcheswith small deacons this is a
helpful resource and the bookcan become your sounding board
(14:50):
as maybe your solo deacon andyou think through these things
and it's really helpful to justbe able to have somebody else's
input and I think especially theway the book is structured in a
Q&A format makes thatparticularly accessible.
Something you just alluded tothat comes up actually fairly
regularly is the idea of earningmore money.
(15:10):
I'm a graduate of Grove CityCollege, a reputable Christian
college, and our career servicesdepartment was always telling
us of how employers just loveGrove City students and how they
get snatched up and hired rightaway.
I had a friend in college whowas a little bit cynical, who
used to share the perspectivethat employers just like Grove
City students because they wereChristians and taught to be
(15:32):
content and not complain, andthen they wouldn't ask for
raises and cost the company alot of money, which there's
maybe some truth to.
But one of the pieces of advicethat we often need to give to
people is you need to earn moremoney when people are being
careful and still not being ableto make ends meet and they need
(15:53):
to think about that.
Is that wrong for Christians tohave that perspective of
aspiring to making more money?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (16:00):
The warnings in Scripture regarding finances
is about the love of money andputting your trust in money in 1
Timothy 6, not in havingresources.
There are actually many versesin the book of Proverbs
describing the blessings thatGod gives with a certain amount
of wealth.
It's a protection againsttrouble and being prepared for
(16:22):
the future.
So 1 Timothy 5 says that if youdon't provide wealth for your
family, you're like an infidelor worse than an infidel.
And so for most of us to earnwell, the motive being we can
give more to the Lord that wecan provide wealth for our
families.
(16:42):
There are many couples where thewife would love to have
children and it's being delayedbecause they're not making
enough money, or she'd like tobe home with her children, and
for the husband to figure outhow can I earn more money or
budget more carefully so that mywife can be at home?
Or, instead of driving a25-year-old Corolla with five
people in our family, I couldbuy a decent minivan.
(17:04):
So I think the desire to takecare of your family, to give to
the Lord's work yes, it's themotivation, as opposed to my
meaning is established by howmuch money I have and how nice a
car I drive, and I dedicated mybook to productive people that
(17:25):
the reason I have a building tomeet in and a salary I'm being
paid as a seminary professor andfor 30 years before that, as a
pastor, is because people haveworked hard and worked smart and
they've been productive andthey've given generously People
who had skills that other peoplevalued, and produced goods and
(17:47):
services that other people wereglad to pay well for, which then
enabled them not only to becomfortable in this world but
also to be able to be a blessingand invest in the kingdom.
And so, again, I think it's themotivation and the trust and
it's a good thing to besuccessful.
(18:08):
I'll give you what other isthat.
Our church has some men who areentrepreneurs.
Not only are they creatingvaluable goods and services for
others, as they've beensuccessful, they've been able to
employ other believers, trainyoung men, to gain skills by
which they can provide for afamily, and so all of this, as
(18:29):
you read Proverbs, it's how theLord has set it up, and you see
people engaging in commerce,engaging in gaining skills,
providing valuable goods andservices.
That's a blessing for those whoreceive those, as well as a
blessing for that person andthose he can bless.
Tim Hopper (18:48):
That's a very, very helpful answer.
Thank you for that.
Also.
I've also been privileged toserve as our church treasurer
for a long time.
We have two pastors who we'reable to provide for, and I get
to really make that connectionbetween seeing people who are
able to give and then being ableto provide for our pastors who
(19:08):
serve us so faithfully.
And if we had everyone adoptinga monastic vow of poverty or
something that wouldn't be thecase, and the Lord's able to use
those.
And so, yeah, you mentioned RTSand just so many ministries
that are supported that we're soblessed with in our day, yes,
missions, yeah.
Are there any commonmisconceptions that you think
(19:32):
American Christians have aboutmoney and finances?
We live here in one of the most, if not the most, affluent
societies ever, where even ourpoor often have more than a lot
of the world.
Are there common misconceptionsthat we've fallen into?
Yeah, yes.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (19:48):
I think that there are some that maybe come
from bad theology, where youhave people saying the name and
inclaim it prosperity, gospelpeople who, quite frankly,
there's so many ways that peopleundermine God's way of gaining
wealth, which is working hardand working smart, and they'll
try to say, well, if you give abunch of money to this ministry,
(20:10):
then God's going to make yourich, or even that whatever, if
you follow a certain rulesspiritually, that God is going
to make you rich.
And yet we have many faithfulbrothers and sisters all over
the world who aren't rich andare struggling financially.
So I think, even understandingin a fallen world, people who
may be working hard and doingthe best they can, may struggle.
(20:33):
And then, living in ourparticular culture, I think
there can be a problem of beingdiscontent where you can.
First of all, comparison isn'tgood anyway.
First, Timothy, if we have foodand clothing with these, we
should be content.
Paul, for Philippians 4, talksabout being.
He's alerted to be content inall circumstances.
But I think if you're drivingwhatever 10-year-old Corolla and
(20:57):
somebody else has got the NewTesla, we can be tempted to envy
and be tempted to think thatthose who have the nicer house,
the nicer car are better offthan we are.
And then, because our culturedoes so much with debt,
christians can be influenced byculture and make unwise
financial decisions, whichborrower becomes the lender's
(21:19):
slave.
So just even that money willmake you happy, and even secular
studies show that wealth doesnot correspond to people's
happiness.
And yeah, so just I think theworld tries to.
Romans 12 says don't beconformed to this world.
I think the world is constantlypressuring us to adopt their
(21:40):
values, that money and stuff,for what matter most and the
great treasure we have, proverbssays, is the Lord and the
wisdom he gives us.
Tim Hopper (21:53):
Yeah, amen, that's very helpful.
You've mentioned debt a fewtimes.
Do you think it's outrightwrong for Christians to have
debt?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (22:02):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think that debt is generallywell.
.
t The wisdom of Proverbs is thedebt is to be avoided.
I don't think there's a law inthe Bible saying you can never
borrow money, but Proverbsdescribes the bad things that
can happen when you do borrowmoney, as you become a slave to
the debt, and so we can see allkinds of bad things that happen.
(22:24):
Practically People charge uptheir credit cards.
I actually have a case thisafternoon of a couple who have
gotten deeply in debt with theirfinances and are all messed up,
and so debt is very dangerousbecause you have the allure I
can have something now and I'dhave to come up with the money
to pay for it, and so it can bemisused in many ways.
It's very vivid when it talksabout incurring the debt of
(22:48):
others.
It says why should you haveyour bed taken out from
underneath you?
And Proverbs says that's a veryvivid picture of what can
happen to you.
They take your car, they takeyour house, and I've counseled
people who've gone throughbankruptcy, have had their
houses foreclosed, and it'sbecause, generally because of
unwise use of debt, ofgratifying instant gratification
without planning for the future, being prepared.
(23:10):
But it's not forbidden to haveany debt and you could say well,
if you charge a dollar on yourcredit card, technically you're
in debt until you pay the bill.
But if you incur this veryshort-term debt and immediately
pay it off again, that's anotherthing.
Debt is destructive because ofthe interest, so you pay twice
for things and the rates areexorbitant on credit cards.
(23:32):
But somebody could go into debtfor whatever and he pays it off
because he's planned to pay itoff.
Not many people can buy a housewithout debt.
I saw an interesting statisticabout how, when I was born late
50s, the average house costabout double the average salary,
(23:52):
and now the average house costsmany, many more times the
average salary, and so sometimesyou can pay a mortgage and if
you're paying rent, I guessyou're paying somebody else's
debt.
So I think we're free to verycarefully use debt, but we
realize debt can be like playingwith fire.
So we need to beextraordinarily careful and
(24:15):
really the situation I think theBible would emphasize is don't
incur debt that may put you in aposition of shame, of not being
able to repay, or disaster thatwould even apply to a house, is
that you buy a house.
It's good to you know, buying ahouse could be a good thing for
your family for many reasons.
It could even be economicallyas good or better than renting.
(24:36):
But if you buy the house thatthings are so tight that you
can't make the payment after acouple of years, that was a bad
decision and you want to be in aposition where, even if
something went wrong, you've gotsome margin in your finances so
that there's very littlepossibility human speaking,
(24:58):
humanly speaking, you'd be in aposition where you could not pay
back what you owe.
Tim Hopper (25:01):
That's very helpful, that's you know.
My fear as a deacon in 21stcentury America is not that I'm
going to find out that someonein my church is destitute not
being able to eat, but going tofind out that somebody makes
$50,000 a year and they're$75,000 in credit card debt, you
know, 15% interest rate, whichis particularly scary to me
(25:25):
because it's such a hidden thing, right.
Those things can just be goingon and you have no idea.
Somebody's not talking about it.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (25:34):
I mean I've even several years ago I would
meet college students who hadn'teven really worked in the real
world yet and they had $100,000a debt with school and or credit
cards.
And so I think you know I can'tfrom the Bible say you can't
have debt, but I would say thatany debt you incur should be
(25:55):
done so in a very careful,responsible way.
I'll give you anotherillustration.
Like with college, debt is toborrow.
You know, college costs $50,000, $60,000 a year and you wind up
borrowing over $100,000 to geta degree in some field.
I do want to mention for less,less to offend people, but
there's certain degrees.
When you're done you're notmaking as much as a novice
(26:19):
electrician or something.
That to incur debt on somethingthat will not be worth what you
incurred the debt for is unwiseand it's going to be harmful.
Now, if you're accepted tomedical school, maybe just like
buying a house you can't buy ahouse without debt and maybe you
can't go to medical schoolwithout debt.
But there's also a reasonableprospect that would you have
(26:41):
invested in that education willresult in you having an income
that will make it easy to payback the debt.
Tim Hopper (26:49):
Yeah, very helpful.
As we work towards a conclusion, I'd like to ask a few
questions about specificdiaconal things and how we be
proactive in church, and thisforms right out of this question
about debt.
Are there ways, besides buyingeverybody a copy of your book,
that we can help people in ourchurch avoid financial trouble
(27:13):
and putting themselves in badsituations?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (27:16):
Yeah, I mean a lot of churches do Dave Ramsey
financial peace seminars.
I've got plenty of work to dowithout coming to everybody's
church and doing this, but Ithink the idea of offering
classes or training on what theBible says about earning money,
(27:36):
saving money, planning for thefuture, avoiding debt, I think
would be valuable to not just ona pragmatic level but to show
people explicitly from scripturewhere that wisdom is.
I also think that if we talkabout it to people then
sometimes that will drive themout of the woodwork.
To seek advice is probably foryou know, tim, as a deacon or
(27:59):
myself when been a pastor, thatoftentimes by the time you learn
about somebody's debt problemor their financial problem, the
boat is already sinking.
I've had people come and againborrowing money, took all the
equity out of their house andjust in desperate situations.
(28:21):
Well, if you had come sixmonths ago, it would have been
much easier to try to salvagethe situation.
It is in the Bible, so I thinkin the preaching ministry the
word.
Some of these things can bebrought up Sunday school classes
, other matters, and then Iguess in individual
relationships and visitation.
You're not going to catcheverything, but when you, you
(28:44):
know, when people, a lot ofpeople will talk about, we're
struggling financially.
A lot of times a wife will tellother wives, and I think, to be
proactive and offer andsometimes I'd say like if you
don't want to show me your stuff, you don't have to, but if you
want to show me what's going on,I think I can probably help you
and to make those offers, oreven to make general offers
(29:05):
publicly, the announcements orwhatever means of communication
that you know.
We have deacons, who, from God,is gifted in managing such
matters.
And if you, you know, want somecounsel or wisdom, here it is.
I actually have.
Actually, I'll mention two otherresources that you might be
able to use, realizing that noteverybody in the church will
(29:26):
read a three-hundred page book.
I have a mini book by NewGrowth that's called Financial
Crisis, which is just, you know,20 pages and it's talking about
if you find yourself indesperate trouble.
Here are steps to take toaddress the emergency, and it
begins by confessing to Godwhere you've sinned.
(29:49):
I mean, sometimes we're justvictims.
Covid happened and yourbusiness got clobbered, but you
know, examining oneselfspiritually and then wise
principles in the Bible fordigging out of a bad situation.
I also have in the 31-daydevotional series by a PNR.
I have one on money whichreally, in a devotional way,
(30:09):
covers a lot of the sameprinciples that the larger book
does.
It's just two pages per day for31 days, so it's very.
You know, it's less than afifth the length, but it's
really dealing with the hardissues behind our finances, and
so that could be.
I would encourage you toconsider many of those have a
bunch on hand for people notjust mine but others in that
(30:30):
series for families that aren'tdoing family devotions.
They're a really greatentry-level opportunity.
But then you know, on financial, I've given this to people just
, you know, to get the basicprinciples of wisdom from the
scriptures but also dealing withtheir hard issues as they face
these challenges.
Tim Hopper (30:50):
That's very helpful, and I'll also mention your book
.
It does have an audio bookedition.
That's very good.
The chapters are not terriblylong, so I mean you could easily
listen to a chapter a day andthey're 10 minutes or something
and get through this book in notime.
A little bit of commitment, so,you know, for people who are on
the go.
I was listening to some of itas I've been preparing for this,
(31:11):
thanks, a related question tothat, and then you've alluded to
I guess really I'm putting onyour counseling hat how do
deacons help and encourage thosewho are facing financial
troubles outside of just handingthem a book, recognizing that,
as I said earlier, it's oftennot just writing a check that
(31:31):
solves the problem.
But those who are facingfinancial struggles are likely
having anxiety and, you know,maybe doubt and stress.
How do we counsel and encouragepeople in that situation?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (31:44):
Yeah, I think that we need to do a lot of
listening and different.
You know everybody's going tohave a different situation and
different causes and so I thinkwe have to listen both to what
they've been doing, but you knowthe way they spend money.
You know Jesus talked to Luke 6.
Out of the heart come our wordsand our deeds.
(32:06):
And so I have a couple caseswhere a wife, who's at home, I
think, is using spending moneyas a drug, buying more clothes
or more jewelry or whatever, andshe's using it just like
somebody could use food or drinkor something just to kind of
(32:27):
relieve boredom or stress orsomething.
And so just putting on herbudget isn't going to solve the
problem If in her heart shebelieves she needs to every day
or every week have new stuff tobe happy.
Others it could be comparison Ineed to have what other people
have.
And we had a case in our churchwhere a guy had a lot of
(32:49):
friends who were better off thanhe and they were living in a
certain lifestyle and he spentto keep up with that lifestyle
and then he lost his housebecause he, you know he would
have if he would have beencontent with what he had.
But there was comparison and soI think trying to figure out
what are the heart issues thatled into this, and then I mean
(33:10):
with I understand too, with theanxiety.
I guess it's certainlysomething if it's a family for
the husband and wife Philippians4, that be anxious for nothing
and everything, with parents'application, with Thanksgiving,
let your request be made knownto God.
It should drive them to pray.
(33:32):
Some people are victimsfinancially.
More people have been foolish.
That's where confessing to Godand asking for his mercy the
psalm says he does not treat usas our sins deserve Seeking his
help and trusting him and hopingin him and seeking his wisdom.
Where they haven't beenfollowing that wisdom, seeking
(33:53):
accountability, that's wherethey are willing to have that
accountability with theirdeacons and elders pastors.
The financial crisis was alsowritten for that type of
situation.
There are some people who don'tread anything, and so it might
be that the deacons who arehelping might need to
familiarize yourself with someof this material for myself or
(34:17):
others, so that you could bringthose principles to them, even
if they may not be the ones toread.
I'll also add that you'vealready mentioned the book.
There are other resources onthe.
I'm the director of a ministrycalled IBCD, the Institute for
Biblical Counseling andDiscipleship.
There's a website, ibcdorg, andthere are audios, including
(34:41):
audios I've done on financialtopics.
A lot of people will listen toan audio who won't read a book?
And so that's anotherpossibility.
Tim Hopper (34:50):
Very helpful, thank you.
Another related question tothese, something that's been on
my mind lately, is thinkingabout our churches and old age.
In America and a lot ofcountries around the world we
have aging populations, solikely our churches are going to
be having more and more peoplethat are older.
(35:11):
Our deacons study bookstogether in our deacon meetings
and I had suggested a couplebooks, including yours, for our
most recent study, and weactually decided to go with
another book, a short book by anOPC minister called Honoring
the Elderly, about caring foraging parents, but really with
the mind for our deacons to beprepared as our own congregation
ages and also we just havepeople in our church dealing
(35:33):
with aging parents.
What are some ways that you canthink of that we can help
people prepare for old age andretirement, as well as helping
people help others do that, aswe have people in our church
helping their parents or othersin the church.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (35:48):
Yeah, I guess it goes back that I see a lot
of like millennial aged peoplewho spend everything they have
to maintain a lifestyle, andProverbs 6, the ant gathers food
in the summer, preparing forthe future, and so I think that
(36:09):
I think sometimes, just where wehave opportunity to encourage
people when they're younger tohave some wisdom to put aside
for the future rather than toconsume it all now, and I think
even I mean as the churchemploys people, pastors, I think
a lot of churches cut cornersby how much do you need to
survive and that's what they getpaid to, making sure that part
(36:31):
of their pay package is thatmoney's being put into 401k or
403b or something.
And so I think, encouragingpeople as we have opportunity to
plan for that.
First, timothy 5, we're toldfor widows that family has
responsibility to care for them,even before the church does.
I think it's interesting thatJesus, when he talks about the
(36:53):
Fifth Commandment, rebukes thePharisees from that commandment
because they claimed they weretithing and they weren't
honoring their parents byhelping their need.
In their old age and againthere'll be different situations
I think the greatest need ofmost older people is not money,
(37:14):
but it's love and most peoplebetween social security and
savings and everything else.
You know I'm in the boomergeneration that's retiring.
In most situations I'm aware inthe church the parents are.
What they need is time withtheir kids and their grandkids
and not to be ignored by thebusyness of life.
(37:36):
Some people have parents whohave been foolish and
irresponsible and it puts themin a very awkward position
because your parents aregambling and whatever,
vacationing, and now they cometo you and they want help.
I actually have a mini bookthat addresses that how to Love
Difficult Parents.
But I mean, that's anothersituation.
(37:56):
Another wonderful distinctionof Christians really both
addressing the financial and thepersonal need is so many
Christians, as their parents orgrandparents become elderly and
needy, invite them to live inthe home, or at least very
nearby, and make sure theirvarious needs are cared for.
Obviously, inviting them intohome is going to save them a lot
(38:17):
of money.
A major work of the Deacons iscaring for widows, going back to
Act 6, james 1.
And so I think just to be awareof that, and most of the needs
of widows I see is they needsomebody to come fix stuff and
they're saving a lot of money.
Maybe you have this.
I don't have a lot ofsituations like Act 6 where you
have widows who are totallydestitute.
(38:38):
We're having to feed them butthey're lonely, or just their
house is deteriorating and theyneed help managing even managing
their finances.
Just to be very aware.
I mean, that's the center pointof where the Deacons office
began, in my understanding, inAct 6.
So I think our Deacons and ourchurch feel a strong obligation
to be on top of whatever theneeds of the widows are.
(39:01):
I also think just many of olderpeople don't have children who
honor the Lord and therefore thechurch has to step in if the
children aren't fulfilling theirresponsibilities because they
don't have biblical values.
Tim Hopper (39:17):
Thank you very much.
A lot of different things toconsider there and, I think, an
important thing for our Deaconsto keep in mind.
One final question Do you haveany future plans on working on
money and more books orresources on this?
Dr. Jim Newheiser (39:30):
I thought I was done and then I wrote the
one on financial crisis.
I feel like I've been studyingthis my entire life, both from a
common grace, economicstandpoint I've read a lot of
books and then biblically, andwhat the Money Debt and Finances
book is is kind of an overallsummary of what I've been
(39:53):
learning over decades.
So at this point I might atsome point, when people like you
recognize things I could havedone better, I might revise it,
but I don't on that particulararea.
I have other book projects onvarious counseling issues, but I
think I've said most of what Ihave to say, especially in that
book.
So no radio show.
Yeah, maybe if Dave Ramseyretires I'll take his spot
(40:19):
Sounds good, but if I do, Iwon't try to sell you all these
different things.
Great.
Tim Hopper (40:25):
Thank you for coming on the Reformed Deacon podcast.
We really appreciate yourperspective.
Dr. Jim Newheiser (40:29):
Thank you for inviting me.
I've enjoyed getting to knowyou better and it's a privilege
to have you talk about my book.
David Nakhla (40:35):
Thanks for joining us.
Go to our website,thereformdeacon.
org.
There you will find all ourepisodes, program notes and
other helpful resources, andplease make plans to join us
again next month for anotherepisode of the Reform Deacon
podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!